The Tucker Carlson Show - Cliffe Knechtle Answers Tough Questions About the Bible, Demons, Israel, Judas, Free Will, and Death

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

Is there a Christian revival going on in America? Cliffe Knechtle would know. He’s been preaching on college campuses for 45 years. (00:00) Moral Relativism Is Running Rampant (08:23) The Tragedy of Transgenderism (17:54) Protestantism vs. Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy (42:46) The Emotional Fragility of Young America (55:50) The Demonic Forces at Work In the World (59:59) Judas, Pharaoh, and Free Will (1:19:12) The Dangers of Self-Righteousness Paid partnerships with: Hallow prayer app: Get 3 months free at https://Hallow.com/Tucker PureTalk: Go to https://PureTalk.com/Tucker to make the switchDutch: Get $50 a year for vet care with Tucker50 at https://dutch.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Two lesbian at Texas State University, a couple of years ago, a few years ago, stepped out of the crowd and said, Do you love racists? And I said, absolutely, I love racists. I hate racism. I do not affirm racism. But I affirm the fact that those racists are human beings created the image of God. I don't really give a rip, whether you're Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant.

I care about what you think about Jesus Christ. Have you put your faith in him? And I got a boatload of Catholic friends who have put their faith in Christ, a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends who put their faith in Christ and a boatload of Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ. But it's simply not the issue. There is a spiritual force of evil that is at work in the Milai massacre acting on people from outside and influencing their behavior.

That's exactly right. And that's why Jesus cast demons out of people. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. There's a spiritual battle that is raging. You have been preaching Christianity on college campuses and answering questions from skeptical undergrad, some of them very hostile for 45 years.

my getting your bio correct you got it okay so you have seen this longitudinally over almost five decades what are the changes that you've noticed and what is your sense of the current state of young people the changes are the following moral relativism relativism in general has a stranglehold now on people the way it never used to Neil deGrasse Tyson one said the good thing about science is it's true whether you believe it or not well guess what Neil deGrasse Tyson that's true about all truth it's true whether you believe it or not and yet you and I live in a culture where more and more people say essentially everything's relative it doesn't matter what you believe and my point is if someone says that to

you take them seriously don't believe what they just said to you So, unfortunately, that whole idea of relativism, the truth is totally subjective, has a stranglehold on more and more people's lives. So I've watched that trend continue over the past 45 years. Secondly, let me I suppose, so 45 years ago was 1980. So you're coming out of the 60s and 70s. Right. In 1980, I sort of remember 1980. It was a pretty flaky time, actually.

actually. Yep. The country changed during the 80s, but 1980 was still really the 70s. Yep. So you think there was less moral relativism then than there is now? Well, that's a good question. I'm not sure of that, but it was not as clearly articulated. It had not been worked through philosophically as deeply as it is today.

It was not such a part of a warp and woof of the American mind quite as much. Yes, it definitely was strong. And to watch that simply grow and deepen was frustrating for me to watch. What is moral relativism? The idea is, basically this, Tucker, who defines right and wrong? I only know of four options. Either the power elite define right and wrong or the majority define right and wrong, or I define right and wrong, or God.

does. Now, if the power elite or the majority or me defines right and wrong, it is relative. It's just a creation of the human mind. But if there is a God whose mind precedes the human mind, then of course this mind, this character of God, which is good, can define right and wrong, which turns it into an objective, moral absolute. No God, morality is a crapshoot. Morality is a taste. What do you like? Broccoli or spinach? Well, this is my taste. Well, what do you like? Loving people or hating people? Well, it's my taste.

No, according to Christ and according to the Bible, morality is not just a taste. Instead, human beings really have innate value and dignity, and that is why to dehumanize a person and trivialize a person is really wrong. So moral relativism is tragic. And yet, as you have said so many times on your podcast, basically sin is deifying my opinion, deifying myself, putting myself at the center of the cosmos,

which I could not agree with more. And a follower of Christ is someone who's allowing God to be at the center of the universe, and that's what worship is. That's what faith is. Worship is allowing God to drag me out of the center of the universe and allowing God to be the center of the universe, which means all of a sudden morality is not totally relative. It's interesting.

I don't, and I'm not a historian. I'm interested, but I'm not trained as one, so I could be wrong, and I'd be welcome any correction. But I don't think before the 20th century there was ever, society civilization at scale formed on the basis of moral relativism. I think every society made the claim that our moral code came from God. Yep. Because I don't think, and I'm a Christian, but of course I'm not referring to the Babylonians weren't Christians. You know, most civilizations not been Christian. So, but there has to be at least conceptually a God behind the moral code,

or else it's not really a moral code. It's just a preference. Exactly. And so that just, as a practical matter, doesn't work over time, does it? No, it doesn't. But it is a neat way to justify me doing whatever I want to do. Sexually, morally, in the use of power, I can do whatever I want to do. Because there are no limits. Exactly. And I'm the one who defines it. And if I define good, a particular way today, but I change my mind tomorrow, there's nothing wrong with it. Because it's all fluid, totally fluid. It's totally arbitrary. It's just a taste. So today, my taste, is this tomorrow my taste is different it's the opposite it's not right or wrong it just is what is is so chill

out cliff and just realize it is so you i think you just explain why in many books have been written on this why did the 20th century give rise to totalitarianism in a way that the world really had never seen now the obvious explanation is well technology made it possible okay but it has always struck me that's an inadequate explanation it may be that societies at scale, big societies, big civilizations, with the don't acknowledge God, inevitably become totalitarian because there are no limits on the behavior of the leaders. There's nothing they can't do. Absolutely.

That is what you're saying? Yes. One of my heroes is Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the great Russian novelist. Amen. And Alexander Solzhenitsyn, at one point in his life, thought, you know, it's really the rich that have a problem with evil. They're the scumballs. But then he was put in a gulag

in Siberia. And he was living among very low-income people. And he was aghast at the immorality, the evil of those people. And suddenly Solzhenits and woke up to the fact.

Quote, the line separating good from evil does not run between parties, classes, and countries. Rather, the line separating good from evil runs through every human heart. And then Solzhenits and understood, I need help, I need a savior, and he converted to Christ.

That was sheer brilliance on his part, and also real sensitivity, I think, to reality. Yeah. Well, he learned from what he saw around him, unlike so many of us, right, who don't learn anything. So you think that this is accelerating. Yes. And what are the manifestations of it? How do you know that? Well, obviously, when it comes to the issue of sexuality in our culture, it is tragic.

absolutely tragic to watch people say, I don't know whether I'm male or female, but wait a second, I'm the one who defines it. Because everything is relative. So if I want to define myself as an individual or as they and them, that's cool. If I want to be he today, she tomorrow, they the day after tomorrow, that's okay.

Because truth is something I create in my head. It's simply my perception. So if my perception today is, I'm a he, tomorrow my perception is I'm a she and the day after tomorrow my perception is I'm a they. That's all equally valid because it's all just a cosmic crapshoot. That's all life is. It's ultimately

meaningless because God didn't create me. No intelligent mind put me here for a purpose. Life is ultimately meaningless. So I'll just create it according to my own desires. It's August and something profound, maybe even countercultural, is happening right now this month. It's called the St. Michael

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It is a frequent topic of conversation on our dinner table, and you can begin yours. get three free months of Hallow at hallow.com slash Tucker. Hallow.com slash Tucker. You'll be grateful you did. So flesh out why you think that's tragic. I mean, it's self-evidently silly because you wind up making claims that are just counter to observable truth. Like, I can change my sex. No, you can't.

It's determined at the DNA level. So like, no, that's untrue. So you could laugh at that. Why do you call it tragic? I call it tragic. because I lose my understanding of why you're valuable. And if you rub me the wrong way, there is nothing that says,

I can't cut you off at the knees. And the whole idea of forgiving is ridiculous. Can you stop this? I feel like you're at the heart of something that I don't fully understand, but if you don't mind explaining it a little more fully, why does that statement I can change my sex because I'm self-created,

I'm God of my own life? why does that affect the way that I feel about you or you about me? Why does that make you less valuable or me less valuable? It doesn't, but it's based on a philosophy. It's based on a worldview. And that worldview says that we all are cosmic accidents, which means we define ourselves, we define our value, we define our morality, we define everything about us.

Right. Which means I will also define how I'm going to treat you. Exactly. And if you rub me the wrong way and if you cut me off at the knees, I'm coming after you to teach you never to do that to me again. and revenge becomes the modus operandi. Yes. I have never, ever heard of a porpoise for giving a shark for eating his porpoise friend.

But we're not purposes where human beings created in the image of God, which means we have this ability to reflect the character of God, which is gracious and forgiving and also just and holy. But he was also forgiving, and he created us with this incredible ability to forgive and to be gracious and not just to cut each other off at the knees. So if you don't believe that other people have souls, there's really nothing you can't do to them.

Exactly. Why does it even matter? Exactly. What's the difference between me stepping on a cockroach and me stepping on you? You're both sentient beings. You both are alive. So if I can step on a cockroach, why can't I step on you? Oh, now you're going to give me this mythology that,

oh, but we're human beings and we have more value than a cockroach does. oh really i don't think the cockroach feels that way right to which you say what down deep you know better than that down deep you and i i don't care what your worldview is you know that there is something to human value down deep within your heart within your the depth of your being you know that when you hold a little baby in your hands you're not holding a cockroach no and this is not based on human arrogance oh i'm just superior to a cockroach no this has to do with some innate intrinsic value of a human life. But if there is no God, this deep profound experience that you're having as you hold a little baby in your hands is just raw emotionalism. It's meaningless. And the value, as you just said, is inherent. It's not just utilitarian.

It's not that the baby may grow up and become a famous scientist who creates a vaccine to prevent disease. Yep. The value is inherent in the baby because the baby exists. is valuable because the baby was created by God. Bingo. You take God out of the picture in your up a creek without a paddle when it comes to explaining to me, why is that baby valuable?

Oh, that baby is valuable because I have a lot of strong feelings. Yeah, fine. So that's your genetic drive, right? As mom and dad to care for your child. Well, guess what, I know a lot of deadbeat dads who could give a rip about their kids. Yeah. So don't give me this bit that dads have to love their kids.

And yet the majority of dads understand that child is valuable. Okay, so now the question is why? Why is that child valuable? And I would argue, if there is no God, that child is a hunker primordial slime evolved to a higher order. So don't give me this gibberish that this child is valuable. Instead, be intellectually consistent and acknowledge, this child is a cosmic accident the same way I'm a cosmic accident. That's so interesting. So you really can't say that any child or any person is valuable except for the products he produces or the services he provides.

Bingo. unless you acknowledge that he was created by God. Correct. Because where the value come from? Exactly. And you know where the value comes from in our culture? The size of your stock portfolio. The size of your bank account.

The style of your car, the house you live in, the size, the grandeur of it. And that is so superficial. I mean, I was one speaking into women's private... Can I also say... Yes. It suggests that if you don't have that portfolio or that car, that you have less value. You are a loser. Right.

You're a loser, but you can... also be completely mistreated or killed. Why not? Well, that's happening in the United States, by the way, to poor people. Exactly. And I guess when you frame it the way you did, we shouldn't be surprised by that. You know, 100,000 people can die every year of fentanyl. And we're like, yeah, but they're losers. Like, whatever, who cares? Yep. Tragic. That is what we're saying. Tragic. Because they don't have value apart from what they produce or own. Exactly. Damn, I think you just, I think you just explained what's happening. I'm sorry. I interrupted you, but you're exploiting my brain a little bit.

Yeah. I was speaking at a private women's college in Massachusetts, and a woman came up to me with tears streaming down her cheeks. She said, you know, Cliff, you don't know what it's like to walk into a frat party. And as you walk into the door, you walk past a group of guys lined up, and they're whispering to each other, two. Four. Yeah.

Eight. Ten. She said, you have no idea how dehumanizing that is, Cliff. and I had to look her in the face and say, you're right, ma'am, I don't. I don't know experientially how dehumanizing that is, but I can begin to imagine. That is such a trashy view of human life. It's scary. But if there is no God, we're all hunks of primordial slime,

we're all hunks of meat on a hoof, and if her proportion correctly, we're in six, eight, ten, and if we're not, we're four or two. Tragic. What did she say? She began to seriously consider Christ in a way that was, very exciting. I don't know what ultimately she decided, but she said to me, plus basically, this is

really beginning to make more sense than it ever has before. I've noticed a lot that the emphasis in the United States, and I've always been a right winger and I always made fun of people who prayed about the poor and all that stuff.

I was wrong, I just want to say. But I have noticed that the concern for the poor in the United States is basically just evaporated and that 100 years ago, the country was humming with benevolent associations with what we would call NGOs, basically rich ladies, just like now, trying to elevate the poor, take care of orphaned children, teach them English, feed them, and that no longer exists at all. And could that coincide not coincidentally with the declining Christianity?

Yes, it absolutely could. it's a searing of the human conscience. It's interesting you raise that issue because this winter and spring like never before when people ask me difficult theological questions, I try and give a short answer, especially when they start getting into, you know, what about the Catholics, what about the Greek Orthodox,

what about the Protestants, you know, don't they really all have problems? My point is rather simple. My point is I don't really give a rip whether you're Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant. I care about what you think about Jesus Christ. Have you put your faith in him? And I got a boatload of Catholic friends who have put their faith in Christ,

a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends who put their faith in Christ, and a boatload of Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ. But it's simply not the issue. Are you Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant? The issue is, have you put your faith in Christ? Then the issue is, are you seeking to introduce people to Christ, and are you seeking to solve one of the biggest killers in the world today, which is starvation?

If you had a kid who was starving, and I'd say to you, I'm a follower of Christ, And I look at your starving kid and say, good luck, and I walk away. You have good reason to question the legitimacy of my faith. I think you do, yes. If I have the solution for your starving kid and it's called money in my back pocket in my bank account, and I do nothing to help you with your starving kid, oh my goodness, one on earth is going on. So to get all wrapped up in some of these theological debates, I just don't want to spend too much time on,

because we got a boatload of work to do. Introducing people to Christ, helping them go from hell to heaven, helping them grow as people of integrity, people of honesty, people of strong values, and then people who share their financial resources with those who are less fortunate and solve the world's starvation problem. You're effectively a theologian,

so it's interesting to hear you say, I don't want to get caught up in the theology. Well, theology is very important when it comes to the basics. I like what Mark Twain said. Mark Twain said, it's not the parts of the Bible I don't understand that disturb me. It's the parts of the Bible that I do understand that disturb me. Boy, is that true? Right on, Mark. Well, it's amazing how many Christians can get caught up in the minutiae. You know, is transubstantiation correct? Should I be a Catholic or not? Should I pray to Mary or not? You know, if someone comes up to me and says, Cliff, I know you're going through a rough time and I'm praying to my aunt, who was a saint for you.

I'm not going to try and have this hour-long discussion with them why I don't think praying to your dead. aunt is a good use of your time i'm going to say thank you for praying to your aunt i would encourage people to pray directly to god correctly to jesus christ but how much time do i'm going to spend with another person debating upon whether you should pray to your aunt or not i just let's let's focus on the majors not on the minors interesting yet a lot of energy is expended on the small stuff why is that i don't know um i've got some fears some concerns about why that is There's a part of me that understands it too well, which is, I want to be right. And if I have an opinion, I want you to agree with me.

And if you don't agree with me, I want to try and convince you to that. And so there can be egotism in there and arrogance. Yes. And I've got to be very, very careful of that. I mean, I have the greatest respect for President Lincoln. During the Civil War, a minister came up to him and said, Mr. Lincoln, let's pray that God is on our side in this terrible conflict. And Lincoln shot back.

Oh, no, no, no, no. Let's pray instead that we are on God's side For God's side is always right And it's far too easy for me to baptize my views with Oh, this is God's view Gotta be very suspicious of that If it ain't broke, don't fix it as a cliche For a reason

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You know, one of the most gut-wrenching experiences from me during the 70s when I was at Davidson was I lived in the home of Billy Graham's sister, Gene, and her husband, Leighton Ford. And I watched the Graham's family struggle through the Watergate crisis. Well, you lived in Billy Graham's daughter's house? sisters home on the weekends just on the weekends late in ford became like a father in the lord to me and his wife jeanie who was billy graham's sister was like became like a mother in the lord to me and so i had a front row seat for watching dr graham realize i think i went too far with richard nixon wow so you were there in 73 74 correct what was that like well it was a rather intense educational experience, to put it mildly,

in terms of what are you going to spend your life doing? I had the utmost respect for Billy Graham. That guy was incredible. I mean, the temptations that that guy had to deal with, I will never have to deal with, the opportunities to really mess up. He had them all over the place. And his integrity was incredible.

And I had the utmost respect for him. But to watch him agonized through this issue of, how close did I get to Richard Nixon? How much did I endorse him? and was that the wisest use of my time? I respect Nixon and Graham for the way they maintain their friendship until Nixon's death. I also respect Nixon the way he told some of his handers to keep Graham away from me. I don't want to sully him any more than I have.

So I respect that. But I also respect Graham for realizing God called me to preach the gospel. I've got to be real careful how much I hop into bed with politicians. Amen. but I mean I guess the counter argument would let me just say I agree with you completely but I also see the compelling argument on the other side which is that I have influence yep I think I'm influencing people on behalf of what is true and good and I have this chance to influence the president of the United States like why wouldn't I take that exactly what do you think of that argument I think that argument is absolutely correct but then the question becomes how strongly do you

endorse the individual, because the individual is a sinner the same way I am, the same way we all are, and the individual is going to make mistakes, going to sin. How closely do I want to wed that individual with Christ when it comes to communicating Christ to people? And that's a real challenge that I face. One of my best lines is, I am a dirty, rotten sinner. And what I'm seeking to smash is the stereotype that a Christian is someone who claims to be morally superior to everybody else. That's a lie. I'm a follow of Christ because I need God's forgiveness, because I've messed up. And if I ever forget that, and if I think that my faith in Christ has produced a morally

superior person named Cliff Connecly, I have parted company with reality. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see. Yeah, that's where it's at. A story, Tucker, that I use a lot is. Truth and Reconciliation Commission after apartheid was being taken apart in South Africa. Officer Vanderwood was at one end of the court,

and a black South African woman was at the end of that end of court. And the Truth in Reconciliation Commission looked into the face of the black South African and said, ma'am, this officer went to your township, arrested your husband, brought him outside the township, partied, and roasted him over a fire till he was burned to death. One year later, they did the same thing to your son, came to your home, arrested your son, took him out to a party outside the town, and burned him to death. Now, what do you want us to do with this white police officer?

And his black South African woman said, I got three, requests. First request is, I want this white police officer to take me to the place where he burned my husband and my son to death so that I can gather up their ashes and give them a proper burial. Second request is, I want this white police officer to come to my township once a month and allow me to mother him, because I got a lot of mothering left in me and he's taken my family away from me. And the third thing is, I want you to allow me to walk across this courtroom now and give him a hug to try and convince him that my forgiveness of him is genuine and real. And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission said, yes, go ahead.

His black South African woman stands up, and as she's walking across the courtroom to this man who was responsible for the murder of her husband and son, a person starts singing, Amazing Grace, how sweet this sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blood. but now i see that's the gospel of jesus christ that's pretty far from what anyone naturally wants or believes so i mean how do you make the case that acting against your own impulses against your own instincts is good like why that's pretty radical that's a more radical i think than we appreciate normally absolutely correct it's

Totally radical. And so is me getting on a diet. When the doctor says to me, you're getting close to being diabetic, Cliff, yeah, I got to cut ice cream out. I don't want to do that. But if I want to play with my grandchildren, 10 years from now, I better do that.

Yeah. So I'm free. I'm free to eat ice cream every night, a whole bowl full of it, or a pint of it, whatever. Or I'm free to diet. I'm free to do that in order to play with my grandchildren 10 years from now.

Yeah, if I want to get a good education, I've got to discipline myself. And if I want to play basketball or Davidson in college, I'm really going to have to discipline myself because I don't have the innate talent to do that. So, yeah, if I want to achieve excellence in life, I'm going to have to discipline myself and put myself through some things

that I don't naturally want to do. And that's what we call living a wise life of excellence, of using the gifts that God has given me to make a difference in this world for good, of using this incredible body that God has blessed me with, to serve God by serving people more effectively, to develop this amazing mind, the most powerful muscle in our body that God has given me,

by developing that mind so I can think more clearly and help more people. Yeah, I don't necessarily want to do that, but it's what's best, it's what's wisest, so therefore I want to do it. What kind of pushback do you get from students when you say things like that? Two lesbian at Texas State University.

A couple of years ago, a few years ago, go, stepped out of the crowd and said, do you love racists? And I said, absolutely, I love racists. I hate racism. But I love racist. They're human beings created an image of God. And these two lesbians erupted. You're an idiot. There's no way that you should be loving a racist. And I said, ladies, you're really getting mixed up here. There are some very sinful parts of me. I do not affirm those parts. I hate those parts. But I affirm my value. was a human being created the image of God. I do not affirm racism,

but I affirm the fact that those racists are human beings created the image of God. And I've got some former murderers coming to the church where I pastor. I abhor their murdering a human being, but I still respect them as human beings created the image of God. And when I worked in a Lawrence County House of Correction

in Lawrence, Massachusetts while I was in seminary, the first visit I would make every Monday night was into the cell of a guy in protective custody, who was there for kidnapping little boys sexually abusing them and murdering them and burying them. And after spending an hour with him, talking with him, reading the Bible, praying with him, I would go to the gymnasium to play basketball.

And the other inmates would come up to me and say, hey, man, don't you know what a piece of dirt he is? How dare you spend any time in his cell talking with him? And I said, sirs, I abhor what he did to those boys. But I can promise you, in spite of how he has messed up and defaced the image of God in him, he is still a human being created the image of God

and I will seek to reach out to him to offer God's grace and forgiveness to one confused, messed up man. How'd they respond? They got quizzical looks on their faces. Some of them laughed and I understand that because that is foreign

and it is absurd and as you pointed out it's really radical the way Jesus taught that. But that's part of why we have so many lonely people in our society today because we live in a cancel culture which means you rub me the wrong way and I cancel you

well guess what everybody's going to rub me the wrong way at some point yeah and if I'm just going to go around canceling people I'm a very lonely isolated person if I don't learn to forgive I will be alone intimacy is based on the ability

to forgive and to accept people who are different and who've hurt you yes that is such a that is such a wise point you know if you think you're the only virtuous person in the world first you're an idiot but second you will have no one at dinner yeah it's exactly right yeah no i think that's really wise but a child molester really shouldn't there be limits to humanity like at some point do you lose

your humanity i guess what you're saying is no you deface it yes and obviously some of us have defaced it in very very unusual grotesque ways but we all have defaced it to some extent i have No, I've never committed the sins that that man committed that I would visit every Monday night. But I've lusted. I've been greedy. I've hated. I've had subtle racist attitudes. I've been sexist chauvinistic in my own unique way, sophisticated way.

So I'm not this wonderful person that I wish that everyone to believe that I am. No, Solzhenitsyn was correct. The line separating good from evil runs through every human heart, including this guy's heart. Hey, to brag, but we're pretty confident this show is the most vehemently pro-dodernation. dog podcast you're ever going to see. We can take or leave some people, but dogs are non-negotiable. They are the best. They really are our best friends.

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And I said, ladies, from your perspective, I understand why. If there is no God, forgiveness is stupid. You don't forgive people. You teach them not to do that to you again. But if there is a God who's forgiven you, then you'd be very wise to be Godlike in the way you forgive others. That's not the message of the Old Testament, which I read last year and was pretty shocked by,

as I think many people who read it are, shocked by the violence in it and shocked by the revenge in it the genocide in it um what do you make of that i understand why you say what you just said but to be honest with you Tucker i disagree i think what you see in the old testament is the judgment of god it's not genocide instead god chose to use the jews to judge the amalekites the canaanites the hittites the stalactites all the other tights. But remember, a few hundred years later, he used first the Assyrians and then the Babylonians to judge the Jews. Why? To commit genocide? No, no, no, no. To judge them for sacrificing their babies on altars, which is the same thing the Hittites and the Canaanites and the Philistines were

doing. And God says, you pervert the worship of me in that way to the point of sacrificing your child on an altar to me. You will be judged for it. And he judged first, those Hittites and Amirites and Agites and then he judged the Jews for that kind of evil. See, I think the real question, Tucker is, do we give God the right to judge? Now, here's what's fascinating about this issue for me. When I step onto a state university campus, I know that the majority of professors are going to basically say, Cliff, if you abuse a young African-American kid and the police come up to you and they say what are you doing cliff and i said well this kid deserved it i

just beat him to a pulp if the police officer looks at me and says let's go to starbucks together you all would be outraged what incredible racism what amazing injustice good don't make the same mistake with god if you define god as being love lovey-dovey and expect him not to judge me for whooping up on the African-American kid. If you expect God not to judge me for my evil, then let's be real honest. That kid doesn't matter to God.

The same way, if the police say to me, let's go to Starbucks. After I whip up on an African-American kid, they're saying something very clearly. Cliff, that little African-American kid does not matter. If God doesn't judge, he does not love. If God doesn't

judge, it means people do not matter to God. and the opposite is true people matter to god and therefore when we mess with each other's heads and bodies he judges us i don't however see the message of forgiveness between people in the old testament in the way that i see it in the new testament does seem like there was a change i mean no one in the old testament that i read was saying turn the other cheek okay that you can't be forgiven until you forgive which are like central messages obviously of Jesus. So does it, I mean, that seems like a change to me. Okay. I would agree with you that indeed

it's not articulated quite as clearly as it is in the New Testament. But gosh, you got to read the book of Josea. Jose is married to a woman named Gomer. Oh yes. They have a little baby and Jose is holding that little baby in his hands and all of a sudden he realizes, I ain't the daddy. Yeah. Number two child, same thing. Number three child, same thing. Jose is holding that little kid in his hands and all of a sudden he realizes, I ain't the daddy. It gets to the point where Josea has to go down to the slave market to barter against other men to buy back his wife. And God is banging on Josea's door saying, Jose, do you know the pain that you experience over your wife's sexual and faithfulness? Well, that is the same pain that I experience over human beings who've been

unfaithful to me, who I created to love me and live in relationship with me, and they turn their backs on me. I am a suffering God. I hurt over that. But I am a gracious God who offer forgiveness. God's patience with a stubborn Israelite people is incredible. They deserved his wrath long before they got it at the hands of the Assyrians and Babylonians. So you think that they were required to forgive in the same way that Jesus required his disciples and followers to forgive? But it was not articulated as clearly. You're absolutely correct. It was not articulated as clearly, but the seeds of it are all there. I mean, God when he confronts Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter three after their rebellion. God bless you.

Oh, thank you. You are just the man to send a blessing of God to a sneezing podcast host. Thank you. So God is very gracious to Adam and Eve. God is very gracious to Cain after he kills his brother Abel. He doesn't wipe him out. He puts a mark on him and says, no, Kane, now you keep going through this thing called life. God is incredibly gracious to Abraham who says to Pharaoh this woman, Sarah? She ain't my wife, she's my sister, so of course you can take her to be part of your harem.

He said that twice. Exactly. Two different cases. I was shocked by that and not impressed. I just got to be honest. Like, everyone loves Abraham, but what? What? I know.

It's amazing. I know. They never taught that in my church. God is clearly gracious and forgiving. He created people and he wants them to thrive. I got that message all throughout the Old Testament. What I didn't get was the command that people should be gracious to each other. Didn't get that.

Whereas that is kind of at the heart of the New Testament. Yes. I don't see that in the old, but I'm no scholar. I just read it once. No, but you're right. There is a lot more barbarism in the Old Testament. And I think a lot of that has to do with culture. I mean, let's be honest, Tucker.

I don't think that you and I are talking to each other the way we are by actually. accident. I think there are a lot of reasons. And I think one of the reasons is that you grew up where you did and I grew up where I did. And you and I were privileged to have a lot of wonderful people pour some very good teaching into our lives. We grew up where respecting each other was valued. And I think you and are the beneficiaries of that. For sure. I know I am. I certainly am myself. But when you go into a different culture where there are not those kind of practices and good habits, I think that there's a lot of of problems that start rising rather quickly that is why i'm a lot more patient with people who grew up where dad was just a monger just roasted his kids yeah was so cruel i'm a lot more patient in understanding those people than those people who grew up in homes so they had a mom and a dad who really loved him and cared for him yes um so you think the culture changed the culture oh absolutely about in the bible yes correct big culture or changes.

So, the questions that you get from students in 2025, how are they different from the ones you got from students in 1980? There's an amazing similarity. The biggest difference is the emotional change. My dad grew up in Switzerland. When my dad was 18, he had a gun sitting up in the Alps as he watched Hitler's Panzer divisions, approached Switzerland. My grandpa was on the front lines with his gun.

They didn't know whether those panzer divisions were to crash into Switzerland or not. The gossip is that Mussolini called Hitler and said, my money's in Switzerland, let's not go into there. For whatever reason, those panzer divisions stopped and did not go into Switzerland. But that's what my dad had to deal with. Can I also say that the Swiss shot down American airplanes, a bunch of them? They shot down it. Well, absolutely they did. They killed a lot of allied airmen.

Wow. You couldn't fly over Switzerland and the Swiss were like pretty, pretty. determined to enforce that rule. Wow. Being like ornery mountain people, which they definitely are. And yeah, yeah. No, they don't want anyone in Switzerland, period. Right.

Sorry, it's my favorite fact. And I don't want it to be lost to history. Yeah, I do too. I mean, I'm not for killing American, of course, but I am for sort of independence. Yeah, yeah, that's excellent. Sorry, sorry. Okay, so that's what my dad went through as an 18-year-old.

I was speaking on campuses when President Trump won the first time. Yes. And I watched 18-year-old. year and 19 year olds and 20 year olds go for grief counseling because Donald Trump won. That's amazing. You talk about emotionally fragile. Yes. The difference between a guy sitting up in the Alps watching Hitler's Panzer divisions come. Yes. And having to have the emotional courage and the emotional strength to handle that versus I got to go to a crying room because Donald Trump just won the election. I mean, that's pathetic. That is, that is tragic. Yes. If you're

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It'll still be there. Looking good and holding your elf. Get yours at alpouch.com. So you notice that in the questions that you get, people feel more on edge? Yes. There's an emotional sensitivity that I think at times is sad. Where do you think that comes from?

Well, I think it comes from a lot of things. I think it comes from the breakdown of the home. if you don't understand love and experience love at an early age and if you don't begin to understand that at the heart of the cosmos there's a God who really loves you if you don't really begin to understand that Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so and if you think your value really depends on you winning a ball game

you winning a deal you having a bigger bank account than your competitor I mean good gracious how insecure and so there's tremendous insecurity that comes from thinking that my value depends upon whether my body's a two-four six, eight, or ten. I mean, you think about that. I mean, you think about my value depends upon whether I can put a better selfie up, whether I can post a better selfie to appear to be more together than you are. I mean, you talk about emotional fragility. You talk about identity crisis. I mean, it's scary. So the breakdown of the family, the whole emphasis of materialism, which is, yeah,

it's all about how you look and how much you own. Yeah, you build your life on that. Come on. things are going to crumble fairly quickly unless you're very successful and then you get to be where Tom Brady is and you ask, okay, six Super Bowl rings, now what do I do? What's it all about, Alfie?

Exactly. Yeah, winning is often the worst thing for a man, I've noticed. Yeah. Because it shows in stark relief the limits of this world. Doesn't it? Yeah, well, sure.

I mean, you got everything you wanted and you're still not fulfilled. So, like, what else is there? Exactly. No, I've seen that a lot. I've experienced it to some extent. Same here. Yeah.

So when you say they're more fragile when they ask you questions, like, what do you mean? Like, how do you know they're more fragile? How do they behave? I have to be more careful. Do I answer their questions? In the 80s and 90s, I used to be able to come back more strongly. Now I have to be careful that I'm not going to blow people out of the water emotionally. Really?

Mm-hmm. Because then I lose their ear. So, like, in the 80s, you would just be, like, at Wesleyan. You'd be like, you're going to hell. But you can't say that now. Well, I wouldn't say that, even in the 80s. Even at Wesleyan? Well, I never was at Wesleyan, but I was at Wellesley. Oh, man, I went to Smith, spoke at Smith.

Oh, my goodness. What was that like? Oh, that was painful. That was embarrassing. Can you imagine I, a white male, standing up at Smith College and telling women that they needed to accept Jesus Christ. as their Lord and Savior, that did not go well. You didn't win a lot of souls that day?

No, we did not see many people say, oh, that's interesting. I'd love to talk more with you. Wellesley was a little different, but boy, Smith was intense. A lot of happy people at Smith. Yeah. A lot of joy there? Sorry, excuse me. I'm afraid you nailed that one.

I mean, you know, I think it's fair to judge a worldview, a relationship. in a commitment of any kind by its fruit, right? I mean, well put. And I'm stealing the line, but I think it's applicable just to the world. Yes. Right? If it's so great, show me how great it is

by the way that you yourself live. Exactly. And if people are, I haven't been to Smith in a long time, last time I was right, picked up a hitchhiker outside its gates, but it was miserable in the 80s when I was last there. I'm sure it's miserable now. And so that's like kind of a bad advertisement

for whatever belief system they're buying into, isn't it? I certainly would agree with that. Yeah. It's exactly right. So then this leads to my sort of meta question, which is, why does everyone hate Christianity so much when there are certainly a lot of lousy Christians and hypocrites, of course, using the church for their own ends and their televangelists and, you know, whatever, I could go on and on and on, kid touchers.

but generally rank and file Christians are everyone knows this way happier than everybody else so why is everyone mad at them well i have a good reason to be mad at god god impinges on my freedom to do whatever i want uh okay i don't want you telling me tucker what i should do and i don't want god telling me what i should do i don't want anybody telling me what to do because i bought into a false definition of freedom which is freedom means doing whatever you want to do. It's not true. But no one believes it. There's not one person on the planet who believes you should do whatever you want to do. Everybody has a strict belief system. The ladies who confronts you about loving racists, like their religion tells them that racists are

not human, whatever a racist is, by the way. And you're required to hate them. So they've got their own rules too. Well put. Everybody has their own rules. Yep. Christianity is no different from secular liberalism. It's no different from Buddhism or communism or in the sense that it has a code, a moral code, and people who step outside it are apostates. So that's just, that's the nature of moral codes. Yep. I think the difference is the Christians seem like pretty happy, pretty joyful, pretty light. Certainly lighter than the ladies of Smith. So like, why are people mad at them for that? I don't get it. Yeah. Well, God is offensive in that God tells me what is right sexually, what is it right financially,

what is right when it comes to use of power. And I would just assume not believe in a being who can see through the keyhole into my life. I'd like to put my finger over the keyhole and say, there is no God who really sees me who's going to hold me responsible. Come on, the day of judgment is intimidating. The idea that I'm going to stay before God. And have to give an answer for my life. I mean, gosh, but that's where the cross of Christ comes in so powerfully.

He bled and died on a cross. to forgive me, to wash away my sin, to give me eternal life. And my confidence is in him, not in myself, in my moral rectitude. So is it the challenge of judgment? Is that what makes people mad? It's part of it. You think there's a supernatural element here? Absolutely.

I do notice that, like, the free to be you and me people, I've always kind of been a free to be you and me person, by the way, for the record, don't actually want to convert anyone at gunpoint to anything. Right. But they draw the line at Christianity. Like they, you know, you can free to be whatever you want, but the Jesus people aren't allowed. Right.

I have noticed that. But what I've noticed about you, Tucker, is you enjoy shooting guns. Yeah. You don't want anybody telling you, I can't shoot guns. I definitely don't want anyone telling me I can't shoot guns. Right. That is definitely true. me. But one of the things I respect that I've heard you say several times is, and I am committed

to my wife. Yeah. And I don't have respect for a lot of politicians who have a real hard time understanding what commitment to their wife means. Yeah. Well, I'm afraid those politicians would argue, yeah, I'm sexually free. And why are you so limited to one woman, Tucker? And I think Jesus Christ was spot on, and I think you're very wise to make the decisions you have. yeah and to put a finer point on it's not just that i don't respect them for cheating though yeah i think that's wrong but i don't respect them for not paying any attention i i think if you're i look at someone who wants to make decisions for hundreds of millions of people whose wife is desperately unhappy and i'm like if you can't even make her happy how are you presuming to make decisions

for me well put i mean that and not just the wife the children if your kids don't respect you if your wife doesn't respect you, why should I respect you? Yep. And I absolutely mean that. And I know, so, I mean, everyone has like, whatever, problems in their marriage, you know, life is long and people screw up and all this stuff. And I all have problems. Try not to be too judgmental about it. Yep. But long term, if your wife is not impressed by you, why should I be? Yep. And I think that's totally fair. I don't think that's judgey. And by the way, it's okay if your wife doesn't respect you, just don't try to control my country. yeah fair yeah like why should you have a leadership position yep i don't know i mean that that's

anyway that's my position on it but i i just think it's interesting that christianity is the one thing that um that a certain sort of modern mindset won't tolerate yep any other religion is fine christianity not allowed fascinating and that to me is evidence that it's true very good i like that Tucker. I don't know, but I'm just guessing. But you also alluded to the spiritual battle that we are in. Yeah. And anybody has a problem with the devil, with the demonic. I would encourage them to read M. Scott Peck, the great Connecticut psychiatrist's book, People of the Lie. Amazing book. Isn't it? And I think he does an incredible job pointing out. If you look at the Milai massacre and you walk away saying, oh, that was just human beings messing up. You're out of touch with reality, bud. There is a spiritual, force of evil that is at work in the mili massacre acting on people from outside and influencing their behavior it's exactly right and that's why jesus cast demons out of people it's why paul writes in ephesian chapter six for our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers against the

authorities against the powers of this dark world against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms there's a spiritual battle that is raging and whether it's paul jesus or m scott peck they're all saying the same thing, open your eyes and realize there's this personal force of evil called Satan. C.S. Lewis put it beautifully. When he pointed out, there are two mistakes you can make and you're thinking about the devil. One is to make too much

of him? Oh, the devil's behind every tree. Devil always does it. Everything's the result of the devil's doing. That's to make too much of him. But the other's to make too little of him. Oh, you know who the devil is? The little dude in the red jumpsuit with a little black pitchfork and black ears. Ah, ha, ha, ha. We're at a ridiculous No, the devil is a very suave, very debonier, personal force of evil who reeks of evil and destructiveness. It's scary.

I think everything you said is true, and I think every honest person can feel it, no matter what your religious faith, we are being acted on from the outside by unseen forces all the time. And it's our job to resist or obey, depending on the force, of course. But the message in some ways is exculpatory, though, I think. I mean, it's not an entirely judgmental message. It's like, actually, you are a, you're being acted on by outside. Pawn is probably too strong, but you're still, I mean, Judas betrays Jesus and then dies. Yep. On the other hand, it says really clearly, Satan enters him.

Yep. So he's like a bad guy stealing money from the other 11 and all that for sure. I'm not defending Judas, of course, but he is also in some sense, like, he exists to fulfill a prophecy. He is kind of in some ways, like, not fully a player. He's, I don't want to say victim, but do you see what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. That's an issue that a lot of people raise. How can there be free will and God be sovereign and all-powerful?

What's going on here? who's pulling the levers. Often a passage out of Exodus that's brought up is, the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. So did Pharaoh really have a choice in the matter? Six times before we read in Exodus, the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. We read, Pharaoh hardened his heart.

Yes, no, that's right. So I think we've got to be careful with this one. Yes, God is all powerful, but I agree with C.S. Lewis that God chose to partially limit his power by giving us a free will. If I haul back, slap you in the face and then say, oh, Tucker, God made me do it. You know I'm a con artist. I'm a hypocrite.

I'm a liar. God gave me a hand. He gave me the hand to respect you, to love you. But because he gave me a free will, I can roll this hand into a fist and send it crashing into your handsome face. And if I blame God, I'm a con artist. I'm a liar. So I would argue that, yes, God is all powerful, but God has chosen to partially limit his power

by giving us free will. Why didn't God have Hitler's mother have a miscarriage? I don't know. Seems to me it would have saved a lot of lives. But God has chosen to limit his power by giving us a free will. Now, the day of judgment is coming when God will hold me responsible for the way I exercised my free will. So I'm not just free to go out and do whatever and never be held responsible. I am responsible for what I do, and God will guarantee that judgment.

justice ultimately triumphs, for there will be a day of judgment. The lesson that I take from the Milai Mask, here's talking to the Scott Peck book, did you know him, by the way, Scott Peck? No. You live in Connecticut, so I just... Did you? I never met Scott Peck. He's gone now, but amazing, amazing...

Yes. And complicated person, but really insightful person. The fact that a Connecticut psychiatrist could wind up writing a book like that. I'm kidding. Yeah. He did not play to type. Right. But the lesson that I take from the Milai massacre is these were like Cali and the rest of them pretty ordinary guys.

Like I don't think they had histories of mass murder before they got to Vietnam. Yep. And yet they wound up committing just that and murdering women and children. And it was murder. Mm-hmm. The lesson that I take is that like any of us is capable of that, including me. Correct. And so the temptation is to when you see somebody doing something really, really, you know,

really awful. Like, I would never do that. I try to remind myself, I think we all should, that like under certain circumstances, I'd probably do anything. Yep. Same here. And I think that's true. Mm-hmm. Yep. So what is that? What does that tell us about people? Mm-hmm. Well, this is where a lot of people have trouble with a Bible. The whole issue of a sinful nature. Right. Dallas Willard used to be head of the philosophy department. USC out in Los Angeles and the way Dallas Willard described the sinful nature was a readiness to sin factor. We were all born with a readiness to sin factor. When I was six years old and

playing with a little friend of mine in the sandbox, at one point I picked up the metal truck and dropped it on the little kid's head. I had never seen that behavior modeled before. Did he deserve it? No. He offended me. And I exaggerated the offense, took too great an offense at it, and dropped the metal truck on his head. Pretty sad. So, yes, we're all born in the image of God. We all have a conscience, this innate moral indicator. But we also have this readiness to sin factor.

And that is part of the human dilemma. And guess what? It's part of why Blaise Pascal believed it. in Jesus, because Blaise Pascal understood the glory and the wretchedness of the human being. And it's one of the reasons I do. My observation and my experience of reality is everybody does incredible good at times. Yes. And everybody does incredible evil at times.

That's correct. I mean, I referred to my dad earlier. Tucker, when my dad was a Swiss Boy Scout, he was walking through the Alps with his Boy Scout troop one day. And they bumped into a group of Nazi officers. Now, I don't know if this is true, Tucker, but supposedly one of those Nazis was Adolf Hitler himself. Hitler did not cut my dad off at the knees. Hitler was very gracious to my father as a little Swiss Boy Scout. And then he went ahead and did some of the most horrible atrocities imaginable.

All of us have incredible potential for good and all of us have tremendous potential for evil. That's so obviously true and anyone, you know, old enough to observe the world knows that. that, observe himself knows that. Why did you say that people have problems with that statement? Do you get resistance to that observation? Oh, yeah. Because there's a type of evolutionary optimism that says we've been evolving for a long, long time, and we're at the point where we are really good people. Really? Oh, is that right, Cliff? Okay. And even Rousseau, the Frenchman, thought we were really good people. We're all born perfect, and it was society that corrupted us. The fascinating thing is Rousseau had his nanny dump five of his kids on the steps of the hospital disowning his kids so they could either be adopted or starved to death.

Wow. We're all born perfect. Is that right, Jean-Jacques Rousseau? I doubt it. It's funny. I mean, things have changed so much that Rousseau was taken seriously when I was a child. We read Rousseau. I don't think anyone knows who Rousseau is now anyway

because everyone's on TikTok but I think Rousseau is like regarded as a villain and an idiot by most people now or maybe I'm just two of my own world No, I understand Can I just ask you pause? I just want to go back and have you flesh it a little bit more What kind of reactions do you get from students

when you say people are not inherently all good? Tucker, if you were my son, and I were to try and convince you, Tucker, you really do have an eight value, but there is no God who made you, but you do have an eight value. You do have real value, Tucker. Do you get it, Tucker? You're valuable. You're the greatest.

You are the greatest. And I want you to go home now, Tucker, and I want you to repeat that to yourself a hundred times. I am the greatest. I am the greatest. I am the greatest. And you and I live in a culture that is so filled with that type of thinking, that we just have to affirm ourselves, affirm ourselves, affirm ourselves, affirm. ourselves to try and convince ourselves that we really do have value and that's a short walk

into fantasy land well it's also so obviously not true that it creates a lot of intertension and anxiety in the person who's hearing it bingo because you know you're not the greatest actually and you know who you are on some level yeah maybe not all the details but you know you're a mixed bag like everybody yeah and so to have to live in a lie like that makes you tense doesn't it i think it does i think it does also um so when so when you say that people get their dander up yeah absolutely what do they say you are so judgmental calling me a sinner who do you think you are what do you say the law that says equal housing opportunity? Do you respect a law that says I'm not allowed to

be biased against people of different ethnic heritages when I rent my apartment? Yeah, I think you do, don't you? And so do I. We all have to make judgments. So please don't tell me you don't make judgments. We all make judgments and we better make judgments between what is good and what is evil. Now obviously the difficult ethical question is what is good and what is evil. Where should we draw the boundary lines. But please don't tell me that I'm being judgmental. You're just as much judgmental as I am. And when Jesus says, judge not,

lest he be judged, he's not saying, suspend your critical thinking and blindly accept everything is equally valid. Bloney. Fourteen verses later, in Matthew 7.15, Jesus says, beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves,

and they will eat your lunch, guys. So don't be gullible. You've got to be skeptical, Jesus is. teaching. Why? Because good and evil are so intertwined in this messed up world we live in that if you're not skeptical, you'll get ripped off. Don't do that. It's not smart. So again, you're just making the point that everybody has a kind of strict religion. Yes. But, you know, only one is true, which is your position. And the rest are just silly. Well, I'm not trying to say that only one is true mine because I've made a lot of mistakes when it comes to defining right and wrong. What I am saying is,

Because there's a supernatural God whose character is good. Therefore, throughout eternity, good is real. Objectively real. It's not a subjective taste. It's real. And God has hardwired you and me in such a way that we have consciences and rational minds. And by exercising our consciences and rational minds in a responsible way, we can really begin to understand what is good and what is evil. I mean, Tucker, to be honest with you,

The biggest ethical dilemma that I face in life is, in light of the fact that we have the solution for starving babies, why do I keep as much money for myself? Why do I not give more away? So for me to come riding into town on some ethical high horse is a little ridiculous, because I've got my own blind spots. I've got my own prejudices. But what I seek to do, Tucker, is to point people to Jesus Christ. to point people to have a relationship with him, to pray to him for wisdom, to ask His Holy Spirit to sensitize their consciences so they can begin to distinguish between what is good and what is evil, what is morally responsible, and what is morally irresponsible.

I bet you get a lot of questions about gays and abortion. Yes. So let's go in order. What kind of questions you get about gays? And how do you respond? My first point is, I have to apologize to the gay lesbian population for the way they have been viewed as inferior pieces of dirt by certain, quote, Christians, unquote. That is false. Gay bashing is not an option for a fall of Christ because a fall of Christ understands all people are created the image of God.

That is the basis for our value and dignity. Second point. The Bible insists that all of us were created for a purpose. and according to Christ the purpose of life is to love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbors yourself. In the same way that God made us for a purpose, he made our sexuality for a purpose. And we read about this in Genesis 2.24. We read, for this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother, be united to his wife,

and the two shall become one flesh. So it's not the federal government that created marriage. It's not culture that created marriage. God did. God created our sexuality. could have happened, could have had procreation happen at the end of a cue tip when a man and a woman mixed their earwax. Little babies could have been born from that. He didn't. He chose to create as male and female, and that is beautiful. That is a precious, precious gift from him.

Now he says it's such an important gift that it's to be experienced within the context of a lifelong commitment. You separate sex from a lifelong commitment. You're going down a destructive path, Christ says. So, third point would be, I have perverted the gift of sex that God gave me. Through my heterosexual lust, I have perverted that gift. I desperately need God's grace. I need His Holy Spirit to change me to live a sexually pure life, and that's not easy for me. That's hard.

When anybody ever says to me, Cliff, I was born this way. I often looked them in the face and say, yeah, I was born a heterosexual male. Do you think my heterosexual sex drive motivates me to have sex with just one woman? And I'm waiting for the guys to laugh. I'm guessing not, yeah. Eventually, they do laugh. Yeah. Obviously, we heterosexual males do not have a sex drive to have sex with just one woman.

Instead, we have to exercise self-control, make a commitment to just one woman, and then enjoy sex within the context of a lifelong commitment. That's marriage. so i communicate that as clearly as i can to people they don't like what they hear and it's fascinating tucker over the past 45 years to watch the gay lesbian groups on university campuses around the united states become the most highly organized the most passionate groups on campus i think that's changing though recently and i'm so excited over that but there has been a clear agenda a very clear agenda. And I, I mean, you don't have to agree, of course, but also the most hateful, I would say.

I've never dealt with anybody like that, never. Did you, so like, but in 1980, was that a question that you got? Oh, yes, occasionally. And now, how often do you get it? I think it's spiked and it's going down. It's not quite as prevalent. I don't know exactly why, but I'm not being asked as often about it. But when I am, it can turn into a firestorm rather quickly. I think, you know, whatever you think of it, I think people are starting to understand that's not the road to happiness. And if it was the road to happiness, while they hate, that's a bad sign. You know, people who are that hateful, whatever they're doing isn't working right. And that's not my fault, actually. Sorry. Well put. Well put. What, uh, what kind of questions you get about abortion?

you gotta be kidding me you're a white male and you're telling me that abortion is wrong where on earth are you coming from white male what does white have to do with it oh i think that there are certain stereotypes that exist and for some reason being a white male is not cool

i mean one of the things that spiked our popularity on ticot was a blonde-haired woman at university of texas came out to our open-air meeting and really went after me. You got to be kidding me. You a white male are standing out here telling us that we need God, that we need Christ. Are you kidding me? This is the most absurd thing I've ever seen.

And I said, no, wait a second, wait a second. What does white have to do with it? What is me being a male have to do with it? We're talking about Jesus Christ, and I'm not Jesus. We're talking about an historical figure who lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead. The historical evidence is he's reliable. I'm not asking you to join me. I'm asking you to seriously consider Christ and to put your faith in him,

for he is reliable in a way that I am not. You don't know me from Adam. So walk away from me, but please read the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John for yourself. And ask yourself, does the historical evidence of the way Jesus lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead, point to his credibility, his trustworthiness, or not? Well, she didn't like it. but it's you know there there's so many stereotypes out there so much prejudice it's incredible i kind of i mean by the way if evolution is real then why haven't we evolved past that we seem to be evolving

toward it and i uh i i was taught as a kid in the 70s that like prejudice like that writing people off immediately on the basis of the way they look was like the one thing you weren't allowed to do yeah but it has become ubiquitous yep Yep. So why? Why? I mean, in 1980, no one could have stood up in public and said, shut up black man, shut up white man, shut up Jew, shut up Christian. You absolutely could not say that. But now it's just, it's everywhere. Why? Why is it culture committed to non-discrimination becoming ever more discriminatory in ever dumber ways? Not discriminatory. Not discriminatory. in the sense that, like, I like fish, not steak. Yeah. But discriminatory and, like, you know, anyone, appearance is the most important factor.

Yeah. It's about somebody. Yeah. I just think it's very weird. Yep. Well, a great man once said, I'm looking forward to the day when my children's value is not going to be determined

by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. That's, like, considered incredibly racist now. Yeah. to say that it's like and i do think it has something to do with what you so eloquently described at the outset of our conversation which is once you stop acknowledging the human soul which can only be granted by god like if there's no god there's no soul yeah you're you're just a hunk of meat yeah once you discount that then the most important thing about you becomes the way you look

yep or who your parents were exactly yeah why tragic so um there are people matter about abort? Like, so Roe v. Wade gets overturned. It's a big deal. We don't really talk about it that much. Anti-abortion people lose a bunch of elections, so it seems like the country is becoming more for abortion. But is it becoming more for abortion?

I mean, you're kind of out there talking to people in a way that most are not. What do you think? I think there's a real divide. I think there are more people who are more committed to pro-choice, and there are more people committed to, no, pro-life. For me, the issue becomes... What does God say?

The word abortion is never used in the Bible. No. But we clearly read in the Ten Commandments, You Shall Not Murder. Yep. So the question becomes, when does human life begin? In every major university hospital in the United States, if a body lying on a bed in an intensive care unit has brain activity and heartbeat, doctors and nurses are legally, ethically responsible to do everything within their power to sustain that life.

And generally they do. Good. so between six to eight weeks after conception that quote little piece of skin in a woman's womb has both brain activity and heartbeat so i would hope that majority of us would be able to agree between six to eight weeks that's no longer just a piece of skin that's a human life it's got brain activity and heartbeat so let's not abort after eight weeks hopefully we all can agree on that then the next question is well what's the difference between a one minute old fertilized egg and an eight week old fertilized egg and eight day old fertilized egg, a 60-year-old fertilized egg. And I would argue the only difference is in kind. Excuse me. The only difference is in degree of

maturation. Right. Not in kind. It's the same thing, just a different point along a continuum. Exactly. So is a one-year-old different from an 80-year-old? Well, yeah, in lots of ways, but fundamentally, it's the same person, still a person. Exactly.

so um this is not a conversation that you even hear anymore you used to hear this conversation debate about when life begins yeah do you hear that conversation a little bit you're right it spiked a few years ago and it's been going downhill since then it just seems like that debate which is a debate about specifics has been replaced with slogans shouted back and forth pro-choice, pro-life, which are phrases that I personally hate because I don't really know what they mean. Have you noticed that? Yep. Correct.

How big a deal is abortion? It's a humongous deal. Because we're talking about a human life. Euthanasia, tremendous issue. We're talking about a human life. Oh, but they're senile. They have dementia, cliff. They have Alzheimer's.

Yeah. But they're still a human being created in the environment. of God. Yeah, they're probably still more aware of the world than my two-year-old. Can I kill my two-year-old? Exactly. What are you even talking about? Right.

I mean, what? Yep. But the sad thing is, Peter Singer, Professor Emeritus at Princeton, used to stand very strongly for abortion and even killing a newly born child. And yet I respect him because he really had a heart for the poor. And he personally happened to know that he personally gave a lot of money away to feed hungry people. So he's kind of a, it seems to me to be a confused gentleman who understands the value of human life and that we're going to feed starving people. But if I want to destroy a newborn

infant, go ahead. I mean, it was always amazing to me that you could have a tenured professor in an Ivy League college, which gets billions in federal funding. Yes. Advocate openly for murder. Why not just cut off federal funding? Bingo. If he advocated for murdering black people or murdering Israeli settlers. They'd be like, no, we're not going to have this. No way. No way. Yep. But you can advocate for murdering kids and it's, you keep your funding.

I don't understand that at all. Neither do I. Do you think, I mean, part of the problem with abortion is so many people are participated in it. Yep. And a lot of good people, by the way, I would say. Absolutely. Since I know a bunch of good people who participated in an abortion, we all do.

Yep. Whether we know it or not. Yep. So how do you speak to those people about it? I mean, it's hard if you've participated, that either had one or paid for one or been the father of a child who was reported. Like, it's hard to talk to people about it at that point. They don't want to talk about it.

How do you talk to people about that? Well, Tucker, I've got to be brutally honest with people. I am a dirty, rotten sinner. Yeah. And self-righteousness, Jesus attacks. in the Gospels like no or the sin. That's for sure. That's the one thing he's really mad about.

I noticed that. Exactly. The Pharisees are fine, but self-righteous people, not fine. Exactly. Yeah. It's exactly right. So we have to be very careful that we're not approaching this issue with a self-righteous chip on our shoulder. That's for sure.

We all are broken people. We all have feet of clay. I certainly have blown it. Secondly, I've received the grace of God, the forgiveness of God. And he offers that to every single one of us, and all of us are in desperate need of it. I mean, gosh, one of my favorite stories in the New Testament is that two thieves hung on either side of the cross of Christ. First thief turns to come on and says to Jesus, come on, Jesus, miracle boy from Nazareth, get us off these crosses and then we'll believe in you. Second criminal says, you idiot, we bleed and die here because we deserve it.

But this Jesus, he's the innocent, holy pure son of God. And that second criminal looks into Christ's face and says, Lord Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Now, it's all right there on the life. And Jesus says, Jesus says, get off the cross. in a soup kitchen, give me 12 hell Mary's and now I'll think about it. No. Yeah. That's religion. You work

your way to God. No. The opposite is what Jesus does. He looks the guy in the face and he says, I tell you the truth. Today you'll be with me in paradise. See you tonight. Exactly. C.S. Lewis was walking through the faculty lounge and they were having a debate. What's the difference between Christianity and every other world religion?

And C.S. Lewis said, oh, that's easy. Grace. Every religion says, hear the rules keep them and if you do a good enough job maybe you'll make it maybe you'll work off your bad karma well enough to attain nirvana maybe you'll be a good enough boy to make heaven and jesus says no you never will be because you will have a problem with sin but i bled and died on a cross to give you grace forgiveness and eternal life trust in me that's why jesus doesn't call us to a philosophy he doesn't call us to an institution he calls us to himself because it takes a personal God, a suffering God, to pay the penalty for our sin to forgive us and to reconcile us to

himself. The last person Jesus forgives before he dies as a murderer. Yep. That's exactly right. It's wild. It is wild. Yep. So if you explain that, the very most basic precepts of your religion to someone before

you tell that person actually abortion is murder, do you get people who can hear you? Yes. correct not everybody but yes i noticed that people begin to listen a lot more attentively the same way if you give a good answer to a difficult question then suddenly if people are thinking they say ooh i dismissed christ because i thought he was a joke the evidence is he's not a joke i'm going to have to begin to think more deeply and seriously. Jesus describes biblical faith as heading towards the evidence. This whole idea that faith in Christ is anti-scientific or anti-reason is total baloney. In John 14, verse 11, Jesus says,

believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father's in me, or believe me because of the miracles that point to me being the truth. He doesn't say just believe. He says, no, look at the miracles, buddy. And allow the evidence to drive you to faith. Do you think that people who, you know, participate in a murder and don't acknowledge that it's wrong and don't ask for forgiveness for participating in it? How do they suffer in this life, do you think, in this life?

Oh, the penalty for sin is sin. Sin has a way of unraveling life. We have human consciences. We all do. We all have a conscience. Now we can sear it. We can rationalize. We can blame others for our sins. But we still have a conscience. And we have to shut that thing down in order to live with ourselves. Or we can turn to Christ for forgiveness? We have to shut it down in order to live with ourselves. Interesting. What is it? Can you more fully explain that? Yeah. I'm not very intelligent, Tucker, until it comes to justifying whatever I want to do. When it comes to justifying what I want to do, I'm a genius. Yeah, I went to grad school for that, yeah. Actually, did well.

Dean's list. Congratulations. Well, you know. Oh, man. No, that's really interesting. So what I think you're saying is once you accentuate, develop, hone, the pattern of lying to yourself about your own behavior, it becomes. Yep. It becomes a habit.

Absolutely. A finely tuned habit. Yeah, well, I think we've all lived that. I certainly have. What about the idea that if you do something really bad, like you do suffer for it? Like bad things happen in your life. Okay, now the challenge to that is Job. When Job suffered, his buddies came to him.

Oh, yeah. And they were real smart. For one week, they sat there and said, Zippo. they just sat with him beautiful compassion comfort integrity then they opened their mouths yeah and he went south real fast yeah they blamed him for his whole family dying you're a sinner job that's why you're going through this suffering and god was going to judge them and job had to pray that the lord would not judge them for that screwed up advice they gave him counsel John chapter nine, the disciples come to Jesus and say, hey, Jesus, this guy born blind.

Who sin? This guy? Or his mom and dad? Jesus said neither. This happened that the power of God might be displayed in his life. Does sin lead to death? Absolutely. Is there always a one-to-one correspondence between sin and suffering? No. One of the main points of the book of Job is, life is unfair, God is fair. Don't get the two mixed up. The challenge when I suffer, is not to clench my fist and wave it in God's face. That's misplaced anger. The challenge when I suffer is to understand I'm born into an unfair world. Now maybe I am suffering for some of my sin or from the sins of somebody else. That's possible. But it's also possible that because I'm born into an unfair world, the flack is hitting the fan in my life, not because of anybody

sinning or me sinning, but because of the unfairness of this world. Now, the unfairness of this world as a result of you push it all the way back to Adam and Eve, rebelling against God, telling God to get lost, and creation begins to unravel. So, yes, we're born into a world where there are horrible genetic birth defects, and life is unraveling. Life is unfair. And the reason I think that's so important to remember is, if I have the false expectation that life is supposed to be fair,

I'm going to be really disappointed with God. Yeah, life is definitely not fair. there are many can I hit you with some hard ones go for it so there are all kinds of references all over the Bible from Genesis to Revelation about people being chosen

yes well the Jews being the chosen people being the most obvious but it continues into you know the very end of the gospels and the end of John Jesus is like you all were chosen what does that mean exactly there are lots of people who weren't chosen. Jesus's enemies died with, according to Christianity, the sin of opposition to Jesus on

them. Is there like an elect who were just like chosen to be followers of Jesus and then the rest who just weren't chosen and won't be? That seems to be what they're saying in there. Very difficult question. An equally committed followers of Christ disagree. Oh, in my last sermon. Sorry, sorry to... No, no, no, I'm not sorry. It's a great issue. In the last sermon I preached, I used an illustration from South Africa.

In a very, very fine South African seminary, it was taught Afrikaners are the chosen people, which means they are superior to blacks, colored, and Indians. And Brits. And Brits. They hate the Brits. Incredible. Understandably. I would argue that is a total misunderstanding of the word chosen in the Bible.

I would argue that when the Bible talks about God choosing the Jewish people, it doesn't mean all Jews are going to heaven. It doesn't mean the Jews are superior to Gentiles. It simply means that when God chose to reveal himself more clearly than simply through creation, general revelation, he chose the Jewish prophets. And he spoke through the Hebrew prophets. And then when he chose to reveal himself most clearly by becoming a human being, he was born a Jew. I worship a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth. It does not mean that the Jews are God's pets. No, they're valuable human beings created the image of God.

But a Jewish thug is a thug. The same way Hamas thug is a thug, the same way a Hezbollah thug is a thug, the same way a Palestinian thug is a thug. we're all human beings created the image of God with a free will and we are responsible for what we do so we got to be real careful that we how we handle that word chosen and no i do not think that god chooses certain people to go to heaven and he chooses other to go to hell one of the most painful experiences i had was at stanford i was speaking in a dorm lounge and a lot of faculty for some reason that i don't know showed up and i tried to pull those

faculty out to express their worldview, their faith, whatever it was. They refused to. They remained totally silent, and it was the students who dialoged with me. But afterwards, one professor said, all right, Cliff, let's go to the kitchen there, and let's talk. And, I mean, that guy laced into me, it was incredible. And, I mean, he called me some interesting words, and it just was really negative. What was he mad about? Well, that's why I didn't know.

until afterwards, I went to the students who had invited me to Stanford, and I said, gosh, I had the most intense discussion with your religion professor, imaginable. No one hates God more than a religion professor at Stanford. Sorry. What was so scary was, the guy who invited me, said, Cliff, that guy grew up in a home where his dad was a minister, and he had a brother. And one day, their father looked them in the face and said, he said to the other brother, brother, you're predestined to go to heaven.

And he looked into the face of the guy who's now the religion professor at Stanford, but this was years ago, I doubt he's there now, and said, in your predestined to go to hell, can you imagine that? What an incredible perversion of the whole idea of predestination, of the whole idea of chosen or elect. And yet here's a Stanford University religion professor who was treated that way by his own father, who was a minister. It sounds like he was working to make it true, though.

sounds like he was living in hell yeah doesn't it if he's yelling at you yeah for like talking about the gospel which is like you know non-violent love-based religion yeah if you're mad about that like there's something you know you're the problem i would say but uh not to be mean but there it there does seem to be and i of course could be misreading it probably am but at least one section maybe a couple where jesus says you know like no one can come to me except those who were chosen to come to me. I think that's what he says. Okay, I think the language is

unless the father draws him. Correct. That's exactly right. So, Tucker, if I stood here, sat here, and said to you, you know why I believe in Jesus? Because I'm a really great guy. And I just made the right decision.

I'm a fool. No, I love Jesus because Jesus first loved me. Right? My love for him is not because I've got this love welling out of my heart and I'm just such a great guy. No, he first loved me.

He chose me. He drew me to himself. I have never converted anybody. I have simply put the gospel, the good news of God's love for you in front of people, and God's Holy Spirit works in people's hearts, and they either say yes or no. And I can't control that. I have no desire to control that. That's not my job.

I've got to respect a person's right to walk away from Christ or to trust in him. Because God created us that way. and when a rich young ruler, after asking Jesus how to get to heaven, finds out, he walks away with a sad look on his face. And Christ doesn't go run after him and grab his cloak and say, oh, wait a second, bud, you got to believe in me. No, he respects the guy enough to say, okay, that's your decision. I respect your decision. I disagree with it totally. So I'm convinced that God allows us to walk away from him.

tragic and God also draws us to himself by his Holy Spirit but look at anthropology anthropology shows us that every culture has some type of religion so I'm convinced that the only reason an atheist doesn't find God is for the same reason a criminal does not find the police he's running away every society is based on religion pardon every society is based on religion yeah including ours ours is the trans religion or whatever it is but it's still a

it's an evangelical faith they find a trans flag outside U.S. Embassy around the world. I mean, I'm not for it, of course, but I mean, I recognize what it is, which is a religion. It's a religion. You're flying the flag, but instead of the cross,

there's a rainbow. Do you think, my last sort of overview question for you is, since you've been doing this for so long, do you think there's more persecution of Christians now? Or do you think there's a revival

of Christianity in the United States, or is there both? Both. really tell me what you notice the 20th century had more christian martyrs than all the centuries before that combined yeah i noticed yep that's not talked about too much i yeah really yeah since the year 2000 over 50,000 Nigerian Christians have been slaughtered by terrorists for their faith in Christ beheaded right outside the church or inside the jury building that's tragic that is so sick so sad and yet it's real

and yet I'm convinced that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church I'm convinced that to spread Christianity I must not kill others but be willing to die for my faith to be killed and that's exactly what happened in the first second third century yes big time

and when Christianity got political power whoa things got really difficult really perverted really fast. So we, as followers of Christ, we have to be very, very careful about power. We need to use it.

It's a gift from God. It's a good gift from God. But we better have that same degree of skepticism that Abraham Lincoln did when he said to that minister, no, let's not pray that God is on our side. Let's pray that we are on God's side. And that's one of the reasons

that I respect a guy like Charlie Kirk. He does not buy into Christian nationalism. We're the best. nation is number one he understands christ is number one and now we better get off our backsides and help make this country more serious about following christ in our policies in the way we do business and i think that's awesome i think that's absolutely fantastic there's a huge use the phrase christian nationalism which is uh i hate this term but a hot button phrase, but never really defined. So people can impute whatever meaning that want to. And the

meanings differ greatly. So if by Christian nationalism you mean you try to make it a more Christian country, that's what you just advocated for. Right. If it means put a religious leader in charge of the country and make a state religion, that's an entirely different meaning, which you oppose. Beautifully put. Right. So I couldn't agree with you more. Christian nationalism, I think, its critics mean any effort to make it a more Christian country. Correct. Right. And so I'm opposed to the critics of Christian nationalism,

but I'm against a state religion. Yep. Same here. Good. Okay, good. Sorry, but that's one of those phrases that just like evokes all kinds of connotations that you may not have meant. You bet.

I just wanted to put a finer point on it. And remember, Tucker, when I speak on state university campuses or Ivy League campuses, I am not speaking in an echo chamber. The majority of people disagree. No, you're definitely not. The majority of people strongly disagree with me. So when you're at Smith, I meant to ask you this, did you use the phrase, can I get an amen?

No. You didn't. Okay. It would have been funny if you had. I mean, just think, Tucker. Crickets. This February, March, April, I was at, with Stewart. Stewart and I were at Stanford, UC Davis,

UC Berkeley Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia, Cornell, Clemson, those are not echo chambers. How long till you get stoned and not in a fun way? Right. I don't know.

And there are some people who I think are a little too concerned about that. I am not concerned. I don't... I think university campuses are still very safe places, although I know there's been some problems. But, no, I'm... And I know ultimately, Tucker, that my... My life is in the hands of Christ, and I'm safe and secure, and I have a great deal of respect

for the Apostle Paul when he writes in Philippians 1.23, I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far. And that's the hope that we have as followers of Christ. Yeah, I mean, he wrote most of his letters chained to a wall in a dungeon somewhere. It's exactly right, Tucker. It's exactly right. I know it's not a holy term, but what a badass that guy was. Oh, no kidding. I mean, for real. for real is right um okay so the second half of the final question which is about revival there is more

persecution you believe i think objectively you're right harder to quantify is revival yes harder to quantify what's your sense all i know is the past year i have met more excited followers of christ on campuses than ever before i am very excited the way young people are taking jesus more seriously I do not think it's a health, wealth gospel. I do not think it's, I think positive gospel. I think it really grapples with good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, justice and injustice, in a biblical way, not in a elitist way in the United States.

So I am very, very excited about what's happening. Should you run into more students who are open-minded? Yes. I'm getting more. really personal questions. You know, whenever things are getting a little tense in the crowds outside, all I got to do is talk about divorce and the pain of divorce, and it gets real quiet.

Really? What do you say? One of the reasons we all need Jesus Christ is because we all experience alienation. And too many of you in this crowd right now know exactly what I'm talking about. Because your mom and dad were so alienated from each other that they divorced. and you don't need me to tell you how much pain that brought into your life and I'm sorry it's wrong it's not right but what I plead with you is realize that there is a good God who wants to be your father in heaven to really protect you to really care for you who has your best interest in mind don't take it from me read the gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John examine this

Christ for yourself and you think people are open to that some are not they've been so betrayed by their own parents i mean that's what that is it's i mean i've lived lived it so i know but that's and many people have at least half the country has that's a betrayal of the child bingo you're absolutely right again and you think that makes them more open to your message well yeah because they understand alienation yeah they've experienced the pain of alienation and that's why when forgiveness is pictured in a very graphic way and the practical nitty-gritty boots on the ground description has given a forgiveness

hopefully it's going to begin to make a little more sense and the importance of it is going to become highlighted because they watched mom and dad who could not forgive each other and reconcile yes that's exactly wow that's interesting what about um drug drug use drug use is, I mean, I thought it was bad when I was a kid. It seems, it seems totally out of control now. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Why do I think that is?

Yeah. Well, I think drugs are very attractive if I'm in pain. It's a way to assuage the pain. Yeah. Why not pop a pill? Why not get into alcohol? Yeah, I'm in pain. I'm hurting. And I can't stand this.

So I need some relief from the pain. And I'll get to use drugs, I'll use alcohol, I'll use promiscuous lifestyle, the thrill of orgasm. I'll do whatever it needs to, to take care of the pain, the meaninglessness, the angst of life. Yeah. Christ says, come and follow me. It's not going to be easy. You're going to have to do some hard work. But come and follow me and I will give you abundant life, a life that really flourishes, that's really good, when you submit to me and trust me.

And it's fun to watch more and more people begin to take Christ's. seriously and say, you know, I don't think drugs and alcohol are really the way to deal with my pain. I mean, you know, I love to ask students the question. If you can ask God one question, what would it be? Well, I like to still play basketball. I don't really play basketball, Tucker. I waddle out there in the court. But there was this one guy out there in the Duquesne and Wyoming City, who I went up to it. I said, hey, if you can ask God one question, what would it be? He said, let me think about it. You asked us on the court? On the court, yeah. Four minutes later, the guy comes back to me and he says guess what i don't ask questions of beings i don't think

exist oh i thought that was pretty abrupt but i liked his honesty a few weeks ago he comes up to me and says um i'm started to pray i said really i thought you didn't he thought that he god didn't exist he said uh i almost killed myself with alcohol I began to realize I got to pray in order to live. I said, wow, that's great. I'm walking out of the Y and getting in my car, and all of a sudden from the other end of the parking lot, hey, remember, Cliff, faith without works is dead.

That's right out of the book of James, at the end of the New Testament. So here's this kid who told me, I don't pray, because I don't talk to a God who doesn't, and I'm not going to ask you a question about God, because I don't ask questions about beings I don't think exist. now he's gone to now i pray and now he's gone to according to the book of james to me i'm not surprised i'm not it's the people who are mad at god who come around to god much more often than the

people who just don't even think about it someone comes up and it's like i don't think god exists oh your god he's clearly mad yeah and that suggests an internal tussle yes with his pre-existing from birth deep knowledge that of course god exists yeah knows that yeah and he's like fighting it and anyone who's fighting is probably in the end going to submit that's my instinct on it anyway same here

that's why when people really go after me out in the open air and people come up you know humble people come up afterwards and say Clifford are you all right I mean I mean that guy was awful mad he was awful offensive wasn't he I'm saying wait a second I respect the guy totally he put right out on the table what he believes when he doesn't believe I loved it

I love every minute of it yeah it's always people like that it's the person who's like i've never thought of that before you know what i mean like what does that have to do with my job at the bank people like that you have a a lot less hope of enlightenment for them yeah yeah than the guy who's wrestling with god yeah last final question are you hopeful for the future of the country yes i am because i as a follow of christ understand that god is ultimately sovereign history is not a string of accidents history is ultimately God's story

he began it in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and he's going to bring it to a close when Jesus Christ returns in power and great glory Billy Graham was playing golf with President-elect Kennedy and after their golf game Kennedy was driving them back to their residence and all of a sudden Kennedy pulls the car off to the side of the road

and looks at Dr. Graham and says do you really think that Christ is going to return a second time? Graham swallowed hard and said, well, the Bible teaches that and all the church creeds teach that. So, yes, I do believe that. This was pre-Vatican II before they're reading the Bible a lot to Catholic churches. No, it's true. It was.

Good point. Yeah. Very good point. And gosh, am I ever excited about the number of Catholics that are starting to read the Bible now? A lot. A ton. I am ecstatic over that development. Sorry, sorry to interrupt, but not to defend Kennedy, but he probably never heard that before.

It's like, that's the whole message of the New Testament, but he'd never heard it. That's exactly right. Well, just think, if you have a worldview that says there is no God, history is a string of accidents. And history is going to end when we all blow ourselves to bits in a nuclear holocaust, or when the sun burns out and we all freeze to death. Entropy. No. Jesus Christ insisted that history is going to end when he returns in power and great glory.

That is why I, as a fall of Christ, have hope. for the future. Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus said, I am the resurrection of the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies. We as followers of Christ, a firm life more than anybody, because we know that there's eternal life out there. We as followers of Christ want to work harder to change our country, to change our world. Because you don't work on roads that lead nowhere. And life is not a road that leads nowhere. Life is a road that leads to eternal life in heaven when you trust in Christ. So you begin to get involved in politics. You get involved in your corporation. You get involved in your family because you know that life is significant and you

know that there's an incredible future out there because ultimately Jesus is going to return a second time. Ultimately, Jesus reigns. Cliff, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Tucker, I can't thank you enough for the awesome privilege. Thank you for your honesty and your openness, your hospitality. My deep theological questions. Not very deep, but thank you. We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people.

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