The Tucker Carlson Show - Dave Smith: Debating Douglas Murray, the “Woke Right” Narrative, and the Moment He Found God

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Dave Smith on the Douglas Murray debate and how he came to find God. (00:00) Dave Smith Breaks Down His Debate With Douglas Murray (10:11) The Biggest Moment of the Debate (15:30) The Moment Douglas Murray Destroyed His Career (35:54) The Real Reason They Want to Destroy Darryl Cooper (46:51) Sam Harris’s Attacks Against Dave Smith (1:09:00) How Con Inc. Tried to Buy Dave Smith (1:16:16) The “Woke Right” Absurdity Paid partnerships with: Silencer Central: Promo code Tucker10 for 10% off your purchase of banish suppressors at https://www.silencercentral.com  SimpliSafe: Visit https://simplisafe.com/TUCKER to claim 50% off & your first month free! PureTalk: Go to https://PureTalk.com/Tucker to make the switch Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Terms and conditions apply. Visit bmo.com slash viporter to learn more. Dave, I'm really glad to see you. I know you've been here before. But it's nice to have you back. I am an expert in all things Tucker Carlson. So, I know you've been asked this a million times but i i'm coming to this late uh how do you assess um the debate that you have with douglas murray now it's been a month how long's it been

something like that something like a month right yep so a few weeks looking back what was that it's an interesting question i mean i think think I think essentially it was he was ridiculous and it was uh it was kind of strange to witness as it was happening i go so you decided to open the debate by just chastising everyone as not being as good as you that the expert class ought to be the ones consulted that you i mean you know you could argue what he exactly, he was saying, but he was clearly saying that you, you guys on podcasts are simply not qualified to talk about these subjects. Now you're saying this on the Joe Rogan experience of all places to go and deliver this message. this is the place guaranteed to turn the entire audience against you and of course i just think that um i think it's a it's a ridiculous

non-argument that never would have made sense but coming off of the covid years the idea that you're going to convince people that you ought to kind of, they ought to trust your opinions. They ought to, that your class ought to be trusted. Was it ridiculous? But he's not even in that class. I mean, he's not. I know Douglas and I think that I'm always gotten along with him and I think that he's clever,

but he's clever in a boarding school way. He went to boarding school as I did and you instantly recognize it in the way that he debates, which is by dropping references that suggest deep air edition that doesn't actually exist. I think he's clever. He's got a kind of bullshitty boarding school vibe to him, again, that I recognize, that I have sometimes. So I'm not trying to be holier than thou, but the idea that he's an expert is absurd. He's a journalist like the rest of us who's been taken on PR tours in various countries by their governments trying to win his support.

Got it. I've done that too. But he's hardly an expert on anything. Well, right. What? Well, also, it doesn't look all of this. So the analogy that I've used about it is that like if you had two UFC fighters that are going to fight. So they've signed the contract. They've done their training camps. They show up to Madison Square Garden. I've used about it is that like, if you had two UFC fighters that are going to fight,

so they've signed the contract, they've done their training camps, they show up to Madison Square Garden, they both get in the octagon and like one of them puts up his hands and then the other one puts his hands down and goes, you know, I'm such a better fighter than you. And this is ridiculous that me and you are even fighting. It's like, okay, but we are, but we are, we're here. We both accepted. We're both here. So if you are such a better fighter, if you have trained so much more, if you have all these advantages against me, well, then you can't just tell you have to demonstrate that take on the argument. You should be able to then destroy me. And so he weirdly opened with this thing where he was going to turn everybody off, turn everyone against it, because the style is bullshit. Even if you're, and I've had lots of

people who are pro-Israel reach out to me since then and be like, listen, I disagree with you on the issue, but that was ridiculous the way he attempted to argue. Because weirdly, number one, you're turning everyone against you. And number two, you're just setting the bar so much higher for yourself. Because now once we start actually getting into the debate, you've already explained that you should be dominating me on every facet of this. And yet you're not. And yet actually when it comes down to it, you have no answer for the points that I'm making. And that was the theme of the entire knowledge. Yes,

that's right. But no, but there was, there were two points in the debate that actually stuck out to me the most. And it wasn't the, have you been, which is, you know, was the funniest thing that everyone's making that, you know, Douglas will be mocked for eternity for, but you know, he made his own bed. But the two points to me that really stuck out in the debate, because this is the way my mind works, is that I'm like, oh, if you give me something, give me something to challenge me on, that will actually keep me up at night, by the way. If you were to be like, no, Dave, you got this completely wrong, and you need to read these three books to understand why you're missing all this information. Can I just interrupt and say, knowing you pretty well, I think, I mean this, I believe, I would take a lie detector test and pass, I believe that

if you read those books and found that you were wrong, that you would admit it. Oh, yeah, I've done this lots of times before. I have views from a decade ago that are quite embarrassing in hindsight. I was at one, I was an atheist at one point, I was pro-life. Excuse me, I was pro-choice at one point. Oh, God. I was up for open borders at one point. I've had all of those views. I've had some really bad views over the years, and I've changed my mind all because— Do you think Douglas would admit if he was wrong?

Well, of course not. I mean, that's obvious, right? No, but that's kind of the asset test, right? Well, look, if you can get Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Ukraine, and COVID wrong, and then with certainty say you're right about the next one, and then also arguing that the other person should have some humility. I mean, come on. Like, what is this? It's so good. It's just too, you couldn't write, if I just scripted this for you and wrote it on a script, you'd be like, take it down.

And this is too ridiculous. No one would believe this. But regardless of that, so there were two moments that actually really stood out to me in the debate were, okay, so number one was in the Ukraine portion. Number two was in the Israel portion. So in the Ukraine portion, at one point, I said to him, we were talking about what, you know, what led up to the war. And so he said something like, he goes, you know, the real question is why all these countries wanted to join NATO. I mean, we didn't incorporate them in NATO through force. And I was like, well, yes, obviously, that's the argument, isn't that we forced the governments willingly wanted to join NATO. I was like, that's pretty obvious why. You'd want to have your defense subsidized

and want to have the most powerful government in the history of the world guaranteeing your defense. Sure. And also because they're concerned about the former Soviet Union, which is still Russia. Okay. But I was like, but that wasn't the argument.

The argument is, why would we do this? And so I was like, let me just give you two bullet points right two quick arguments and the two uh quick points that i made were number one uh the yet means yet memo which of course as you know well you've talked about this a lot you talked about this back on your fox news show was that uh uh bill burns later director of the cia yes the the cia director through joe biden's four years yes who was the CIA director through this entire war up until Trump took it back over. But then the ambassador to Russia.

Right, in 2008, he was the ambassador to Russia. He wrote a private cable to Condoleezza Rice. This was not for the public. This was a private cable that later the heroic Julian Assange released. It's the only reason we know it exists. And he lays out in there that all this talk about Ukrainian entry to NATO is going to lead to a war.

And he specifically says that this is the brightest of all red lines for the Russians. And if we keep moving forward, they fear this could result in civil war and then they might have to intervene. In his words, quote, a choice the Russians do not want to have to make so it's like hey there's a pretty compelling piece of evidence yes and then number two i said uh uh stoltenberg i always say this name wrong but the head of nato yes stoltenberg the head of nato he said that vladimir putin in late 2001 put in writing sent a draft treaty to NATO and said, if you just put into writing that you will not bring Ukraine into NATO, I will not invade the country. This is the head of NATO.

So I give him these two points. Okay. There's, I could talk a lot more about this, but I was like, let's focus on these two. Seems to me that all the powerful people involved are admitting that this war was about Ukrainian entry into NATO. And his response was, the war was not about Ukrainian entry into NATO. It was about Vladimir Putin's desires to reconstitute the Soviet Union. And I was like, yeah, but what's the response? Like, what's the response to my point? Like, I made a point. You made nothing. You just made an assertion. So there was this one where it's like, once you actually get down to it, once you remove all this, like you're an expert, you're not an expert, you've never been, what are you

watering? What are the, you've got no actual argument here. Because you're not an expert yourself. Right. But even that, it's like that, again, just the way I work, that doesn't do anything for me. Then you got to have an actual argument. Otherwise you're not going to persuade me.

And I think for most of the viewers. And actual knowledge too. Right. And I just refer back to the boarding school thing. It's like the whole point of that style in debating is to create the illusion of knowledge. Well, that's it. You have an Aeschylus quote, sort of, you know what I mean? Or you can cite the titles of three D.H. Lawrence novels, but you haven't read the novels.

You haven't read Aeschylus. You don't actually have it. You don't have an original thought that's actually yours you don't even have the material you haven't even you haven't even read the books it's a sleight of hand and uh well that's what they teach you in boarding school well okay so then the other one which some people did pick up on this, but this to me was like actually the biggest moment of the debate, I thought. And it was sad in a way because Douglas Murray is someone who I have some degree of respect for as a smart person. It was kind of sad that he was reduced to this. But so he made the argument.

He said, first off, he was dishonest. And I didn't call him. I knew this, but I let it slide. But he goes, you know, I was very iffy about the war in Libya. It's like, I've read your columns at the time. No, you fucking weren't. Okay. Anyway, but he goes, I was very iffy about the war in Libya, but the war in Libya was fought because there was this tremendous fear that Gaddafi was about to go genocidal and it was a humanitarian intervention. And so then I said, okay. Now they have slave markets in Tripoli.

Right. It's humanitarian. But even, but forget even the point that, okay, maybe their argument is they thought he was going to go genocidal, and they didn't realize it would be so much worse without him. Like what? But I said, okay, Douglas, so riddle me this then. If it was a humanitarian intervention, how come I have four-star General Wesley Clark telling me 10 years prior that we had already made the plans to go overthrow Gaddafi? Because he said this very clearly to Amy Goodman on Democracy Now!

And then I mentioned that he later, actually very recently on Piers Morgan, he clarified. This is really interesting. If people go watch it, Scott Horton, who is amazing, by the way, his book Provoked is the best book on Russia, the U.S. post-collapse of the Soviet Union relations. His book Enough Already is the best book that's been written on the terror wars. So Scott Horton is debating Wesley Clark on Piers Morgan. And this gets brought up, you know, the fact that you said in 2001, you had already seen in the Pentagon that we were going to overthrow seven countries in five years. And okay, so he says, he goes, well, actually, the plans go back to 1991. And I saw them first from Paul Wolfowitz's office. And then basically, the plans got killed. And then they were revived by Richard Perle and a study paid for by the Israelis. This was four-star General Wesley Clark's comments on it. So I brought that up, and I go, well, look, you're going to say that this is a humanitarian intervention, but that seems strange because the plans to overthrow Gaddafi were already written many years earlier. And then they had their opportunity, and they did it. I think it was more than just a humanitarian intervention. And then his responses, this thing about how Paul Wolfowitz's name starts with an animal and ends Jewish. And it was kind of funny the way he said it, but then he just, he went, be careful what you're watering there

because you can't, you know, there are a lot of people are going to hate Jews if you just start bringing up Paul Wolfowitz's name. And I just could not believe, by the way, the end result of that is he had no response to what I was saying. He didn't have a response to why this wasn't. Paul Wolfowitz has an identifiably Jewish name. You're abetting anti-Semitism by bringing it up, even though he's a government official who helped get us into this war that killed a million people? Yeah, he's also, in other places, talked about how Paul Wolfowitz is like a hero in the Kurds in Iraq, consider him a hero because he was the architect of the war that overthrew Saddam Hussein,

but like, I'm not allowed to mention him because that, which is, first of all, it's just beside the point. Like, forget what this will lead to. What's the truth? That's what matters. So, he's, of course, a very pro-Kurdish, I would imagine. Right. Yes. Yes. I'm sure. Well, I actually have been there. Have you? Yes, I have been there. And I can say firsthand, the most brutal people I've ever met in my life were Kurds. Like, actually, I saw it firsthand. So, I'm not against the Kurds or whatever, but it's just interesting. Everyone in Washington, no one's ever met a Kurd. Can't define what a Kurd is. Everyone reflexively loves the Kurds.

And I've never had strong views about the Kurds. But again, I just want to say, I've seen it in action in Iraq. And I was shocked by the Kurdish behavior personally. Yeah. Well, also, you know, it's all the people who are, you know, were knocking Donald Trump in his first term when he wanted to pull out of Syria. And they were like, what about the Kurds? We can't betray the Kurds. And then those same people will tell you what a great president George H.W. Bush was. But we can't betray the Kurds, right? The guy who really betrayed the Kurds, I mean, told them to rise up against Saddam Hussein and overthrow him and then decided,

ah, we're going to back off of that and just allowed them to get slaughtered, you know. But, and look, I mean, it was just kind of blatant. It's like, I'm presenting an argument and you're responding with a pure woke tactic, a pure woke tactic to say, which I, as I mentioned to him, I go, but wouldn't this apply to everything you stand for? I mean, everything you stand for about how we shouldn't have so much Muslim immigration into the UK. Okay.

Well, someone could take that and that might lead to a rise in hatred of, of Muslim people, but that's not a counter argument. No, that's not an argument. That's like, well, okay, well then maybe you could say you should also add in there. I don't mean all Jewish people are guilty of some conspiracy, but first of all, I'm Jewish and he's not. So like, what the hell are you talking about? Well, I wouldn't say you're Jewish. And that gets me to, I mean, I don't think you'd convince Douglas that you're Jewish. Well, that's true. I saw that and read the commentary after, and as someone who's always liked Douglas and known him for a while, my first instinct was, wow, he just destroyed his career.

Like, he's done. No smart person will ever take Douglas seriously again. And I don't know if he felt that way, but it was clear by a day or two after he realized he destroyed his career. And in response rather than admitting that and admitting what he'd done wrong he attacked you really kind of doubled down in the new york post i want to read this because i was offended by this um he goes the whole column's an attack on you and i'm quoting claiming some jewish ancestry

smith has spent the last 18 months since October 7th being very unfunny. Indeed! Claiming some Jewish ancestry. Now, I'm not really sure. Well, I'm just going to, I don't know why that just, oh, well.

So what, do you claim some Jewish ancestry? I, my mom and dad are probably the big ones. I do. I do claim some jewish ancestry um but yeah it's i mean it was so well first of all i joke which i'm not even the first because everyone made this joke already about the art but he says i haven't been funny and i just douglas has never been to one of my comedy shows so he should come and check it out

and then he could tell me what he thinks i I think I'm pretty damn funny in my shows and the audience seems to think so. But what is your Jewish ancestry? First of all, he suggests that you're like a fake Jew. Yeah, yeah. Claiming some Jewish ancestry. It's like you're hiding behind a cloak of ersatz Judaism. Which is, in a way,

one of the things I thought was so interesting about the piece uh was that and i couldn't imagine man i hope i'm never this person um because even now right like there's so there's so many shots i could take at douglas but even when you ask me about the debate like my first instinct is to go like well look here are the points i made that he didn't have counters to because i'm about the argument. That's what actually matters. And it's tough for all of us because there is, as you know well, you've talked a lot about this, right? But it's like in this kind of show business news world where we're talking about events and things that matter, but also there's a camera on us and we're talking on a microphone and we're public people. And so it's kind of impossible

to completely remove your ego and your own narcissistic tendencies from that. But you got to keep reminding yourself like, yeah, but there's a fucking war going on. That's what actually matters. All of this is much less important than the actual policy. So you try to focus on that. But I could not imagine writing an article about a debate that I had just been in where the reaction was so unfavorable toward me. And in the piece, what you might notice is he does not take on a single one of my arguments. He does not point out something that I got wrong. He does not say Dave argued this, but this is so clearly a reflection of his lack of

knowledge on this subject because he didn't account for X, Y, and Z. It's just like the actual debate. He would only debate me. He wouldn't debate the topic. I was in a restaurant the other night, in fact, this weekend, and I had a little trouble hearing what people were saying. And I thought to myself, I'm a little young to go deaf. Why?

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That's the way it looked. Here, the guy just flies into your aircraft carrier, doesn't sink it, but it destroys his plane, his career. I don't get it. In a sense, I don't think Douglas Murray destroyed his career. I think he destroyed his reputation. And so his reputation amongst the people, but his career is actually going to be fine. Much like Kamala Harris's career is actually going to be fine. And I don't know. I'm speculating a little bit,

uh, with this cause they're, they're really, there was not almost any interaction off the podcast. Like Douglas Murray showed up five minutes later, we were recording, he left immediately afterward and me and Rogan hung out for a little bit. So like, there's nothing more that the viewer didn't see that I saw really hellos and goodbyes. Um, but I think number one, one of my, my guesses I'm speculating here is that he just didn't, uh, wasn't really prepared for me. And it was like, oh, some, a comedian will be on there. And maybe he came in kind of confident that like, he'll be able to handle me. I've had that happen a few times in my career. I think it's happening less. I can't imagine he didn't look into me before the debate, but maybe that's possible.

But the feeling that I got as it was going on was kind of... Okay, do you remember... I'm sure you do. You remember very well when Kamala Harris was running for president. I know that seems like a long time ago, but that actually happened, which is really crazy. It's like a dream sequence. Now, it's not just that Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney endorsed her, but she started bringing Liz Cheney out to campaign events and campaigning with Liz Cheney. Now, if you were just looking at this on paper, you'd go, what demographic of voters is this for and you'd very quickly realize that that demographic doesn't exist no are the leftists they still remember her last name is cheney and especially with the the year that had preceded that like they're kind of anti-war again and they're not really into like the idea of we've got a Cheney on our side is not going to win you. It's not going to get out your base. And then on the other side, I mean, she lost

by like 50 points in her congressional run. I mean, she's it's not like you're bringing Republicans in. And so I think the only thing you could conclude is that, oh, this isn't actually for the voters. There's somebody else who Kamala Harris is talking to here. There's a power source that may be a little concerned about her, and she's trying to let them know, don't worry, I'm good for business. I've got Liz Cheney right here. That's kind of my assumption. It seemed to me with the Douglas Murray thing, he wasn't playing in the audience. He certainly wasn't trying to persuade Joe. He perhaps was talking to a different audience.

Which will make sure that his career is just fine going forward. That's the sense I got. If you want to make people paranoid and hateful, act like that. Well, again, look, there's two things that I really want to make sure I express. Number one, with the thing where he, this, this claim, some Jewish ancestry thing, which by the way, would be, I think if you were to ever do this to say like a Jewish person who was on your side, you would be like, well, that's a pretty anti-Semitic thing to do, right? To like challenge their Jewishness because they disagree with a policy.

But what does your Jewishness have to do with it anyway? Right. That's the whole fucking point. And that, you know, it does does i think it's basically like this i think that particularly when it comes to the israel stuff a lot of these guys don't know what to do with me because typically as every american who's ever criticized israel knows you get labeled as being a jew hater you oh you must be anti-semitic that's why you would say something like that. Like, remember that horrible anti-Semite Pat Buchanan who said that the Israel lobby wanted a war in Iraq?

She just hates Jewish people. Like, even though we all know that's true, when you say it, they go, you're an anti-Semite. That's like the game that they play. That's much tougher to do when you're talking to someone who's Jewish. And so in a sense, that ends up being kind of a shield against the accusation. And so they want to remove that shield so that you don't have. But the bottom line is that no one should have that shield. And I am Jewish. My mother and father are both Jewish. I think I was 86% Ashkenazi Jew on my DNA test. I think that's enough. But the point is, it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter at all. You should, anybody- We're talking about the behavior of nations, by the way. Nations with militaries and

parliaments, congresses, like these are countries. And what does this have to do? I mean- Well, first of all, and this isn't even the most important point but the American taxpayer is forced to pay for this stuff so but even if he wasn't even if you didn't have to pay for it if you're a human being forget even an American if you're a human being you have a right to have an opinion on any issue you want to have an opinion on this is what the left did during COVID it was like wait a second it seems like this came you're telling me it came from a pangolin in a wet market a fish market a mammal sold in a fish market somehow you know was the genesis of this virus but there was this level three bio lab like a mile away

maybe that was a source they're like ah you hate asians right and they claimed racism so you couldn't pursue that line of inquiry i see people people like Douglas Murray, supposedly on the right, and there are a lot of others like Douglas Murray, saying the same thing. Like, you can't express an opinion about where your tax dollars go or about people dying or else you're a bigot. How is that different? Right. No, it's not. It's the same thing it's the same kind of pathetic um tactic where if you can't if you can't argue against someone's ideas you just say oh you're a bad person and that's why you have

these ideas to begin with it's a very it's a very low grade like social psychology attempt to shame someone out of having the the views that they have um and yeah, it's exactly, it's what the woke did on everything. It's no matter what it was, if anytime is a, I don't, I can't remember who coined the term, but is a racist, is anybody winning an argument against a progressive? You know, that's it.

And so he's doing the same thing. But then the other thing, which is really separate and secondary from that, but the argument that Douglas Murray is making is that if I call out Paul Wolfowitz, or even, you know, more broadly speaking, if I call out the neoconservatives and how they hijacked American foreign policy and how they very much had Israel's interest in mind, which I get from reading the neoconservatives. I don't get this from reading critics of them.

It's in their own words. He's saying me calling that out is fertile ground for Jew hatred to rise. And it's like, no. What you're doing is fertile ground. I agree with that. What you're telling me, I'm not allowed to call out the deputy defense secretary

because his last name is Jewish? That's actually what leads to a rise in people not liking Jews. I agree more. And I do think Douglas, though he's not an expert or a genius, is smart enough to understand that, but he did it anyway. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I don't know his motive, but in the moment that I think made me actually turn it off, I had to stop watching,

but it was most revealing of all, is when he was after Daryl Cooper, the historian, really one of the great historians in the United States, Daryl Cooper, and doesn't know his name. Yeah.

But goes after him personally as like a Nazi or something. And let me just parenthetically, and I'll shut up after this, but Daryl Cooper is one of the kindest, most reasonable, most fundamentally liberal people I know, anti-Nazi people. I know a guy who you could give your routing number to would never steal money. A guy who, if he had absolute power, would kill nobody. Like a truly

decent Christian man basically called him a monster and didn't even know his name. And so that suggested to me that he was like briefed by somebody before, so make sure you get in this Holocaust, which he's not, Daryl Cooper. Like, what is that? Well, it's also, you know, if you're smearing people who, and Daryl wasn't the only one, but if you're smearing people whose like names you don't know and who you admit you've never listened to any of their their work maybe don't put that right in the middle of an appeal to expertise you know like like maybe don't maybe have that in a different section than in the section where you're going you really have to know what you're talking about in order to have an opinion on these things and

so that didn't that didn't work out very well. Daryl is an amazing guy. He is brilliant. His work is phenomenal. I know him personally, and he's like genuinely a great person. He's a humane man. Yes. And it is something, it's a comment on our time and on our society that the guy who essentially, if you actually consume any of Daryl's work, as I have consumed a lot of it, basically Daryl's whole kind of his template, the way he operates is he's, there's basically only like a couple rules. And like, number one is he has to read everything that's available on the subject. So he reads everything. The guy's a machine.

His depth of knowledge is like second to none. He just knows everything. And then number two is whenever you talk about history, basically his rule is that you have to understand that everyone involved is a human being. Every one of them was a three-year-old at one point. So like totally innocent, like good little boy, like my three-year-old at one point it's like totally innocent like good little like my three-year-old that i have at home and that they grew up in real circumstances and real things happen to them and if you're going to do history you have to constantly be doing your

absolute best to put yourself in this person's shoes and then put yourself in this person's shoes and then put yourself on this side of the conflict and then put yourself on this side of the conflict that's basically it it's pure empathy like all and actually um as i've mentioned to you personally and i've told daryl this personally he is probably the best shot people have at de-radicalizing people in in the worst form of being radicalized he's the guy listen for me personally and i thought I was pretty well read on the history of Israel-Palestine, and he has this incredibly long series, like a 30-hour series called Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem. And the thing is, I knew most of what I knew, not all of it, but most of what I had read about with the Israeli-Palestine conflict, like most people, was like starts in 1947, 1948, and then goes up to today. His series is about, it's like from the

1890s until 1947. So he's talking about the creation of the state from Zionism being created to the state being created. And going- From Herzl to Ben-Gurion. Right, right, exactly. That's basically the whole, you know, he has a little in the position and you do understand like, oh, okay, these were real men who were reacting to the circumstances of their day. You can kind of understand why a lot of them wanted to do this. By the way, it's pretty amazing that they pulled it off, however you feel. I agree completely. However you feel about what the government of Israel is doing.

It's amazing that they did this. And yeah, look, and of course, for the one, this is why I say It's amazing that they did this. And yeah, look, and of course, for the one, this is why I say it's a comment on our time. So there's one guy here who's going like, listen, you got to like really completely educate yourself on a subject. And then you have to have empathy toward all sides. And then everyone goes, Nazi, that guy's a Nazi. That's what it is to be a Nazi in 2025. It's just so funny. I'm too old for a lot of this stuff. And so i thought you know among the many lessons great lessons of the second world war that i mean i grew up marinating in dehumanizing people is bad treating them like treating human beings like they're not

human is bad and i still believe that i think it's the core of christianity and but it's also just the core of any civil society any decent society and that's what daryl is trying to do yeah and i don't know that i've ever heard anybody try and take apart his his you know factual analysis it's always always immediately goes to motive you're a nazi shut up you're a holocaust denier or just right or claiming he said something that isn't at all what he said like he downplayed the atrocities. Why don't you just ask him? No, he didn't. It's also...

But why? Why should Daryl Cooper... And by the way, a number of my friends, people I really like have been involved in this. Like their authority has been marshaled to destroy Daryl Cooper. And I grieve to see it because they're paid to do it. It's so degrading to them and

dishonest and sad. But why? Daryl Cooper's like this one guy living in the Pacific Northwest. Why spend all this time and energy to destroy him? Well, I love that you said this, I forget, a few years ago. I can't remember what it was where you said this, but it was you, and this really hit home with me. And this isn't like, and you weren't suggesting that this is like a proof. This isn't like a irrefutable logical argument. It's kind of like a guide. But, you know, you said the thing about you could tell when something's infected because you touch it and you recoil and you go, ooh, something's going on there. Now, what exactly is it? No, that doesn't prove what's going on. But look, you can't, the fact that Daryl's moment on your podcast sitting right here where I'm sitting got such a reaction, really demonstrates something. Like something, and you see that it's like,

oh, you touched on like a third rail. Or hurt dog barks. Yes, well, and in the same way when you had first questioned the morality of dropping nuclear weapons on cities. And then there's this big freak out over that.

And now nobody here has said, hey, the Nazis were the good guys. The Nazis didn't commit any atrocities. The Nazis were bad guys. No one's even downplaying. No one even made the argument that it was... I remain anti-Nazi for the work.

Yes. For the record. But I'm saying like, no one even made the argument i remain anti-nazi for the work yes for the record but i'm saying like no one even made the argument that like it was 5.9 million not six you know like there's nothing this this topic hasn't even been broached no but what what you are attacking is really the underpinning of the origin story of the American empire. And that's what you're not allowed to question. And you see it the way every defender of every war, including the current one,

if you can call it a war going on in Gaza, I'm not sure war is exactly the right term to describe it. It's the destruction of a captive people. But every single person who defends it will always invoke world war ii at one point not even arguing that like not even making an argument that this is why it was justified in world war ii just like we did it in world war ii we did in world war ii and we're the good. So good guys are allowed to slaughter entire peoples. You know, it's like, it is the, and look, even if you, even if you accept the official World War II story as being completely correct, it's still something that's used to justify all of these other indefensible wars. Every war of my lifetime, and I doubt too many people really want to defend the ones in between World War II and when I was born, you know i got i don't think anyone's going like look at vietnam

it did such a great it's such a good thing that we did that and those who are attempting to defend it are pathetic but you know iraq and libya and syria and afghanistan and um even the ones when i was a little kid, you know, Serbia. Every one of these guys they always said was Adolf Hitler. Milosevic is Adolf Hitler. Saddam Hussein is Adolf Hitler. Gaddafi is Adolf Hitler. Noriega is Adolf Hitler.

Every bad guy has always been. It's like they use this model to justify. You're only ever allowed to learn the lesson in history that's like Chamberlain was an appeaser, appeasing bad, confrontation good, as if the lessons of history are that aggression is always correct. Trying to work out a deal is always wrong. And that's why I think it's so important to attack that narrative. Yeah. And from my perspective, it's like not even about principle as much as it is effect. If what we're doing was working, then I guess I wouldn't be interested in,

you know, analyzing it so critically, but it's not working. It hasn't worked for the West, which I love. It's where my ancestors are from. It's where my children live. So it's like, I don't know. I think it's fair to ask,

like, how did we get here? It's all falling apart. Why? And maybe the assumptions were bad. And what are those assumptions? Well, they're rooted in that war, as you said. It's just interesting that anyone would want to defend that. Like, I don't really, I still don't get the motive. Maybe I never will. Like, why would you want to defend any of that? Why would you want to defend Dresden or Gaza or any things that America did? But by the way, it's not attacking, not attacking Israel. It's I'm attacking the U.S. government, which I pay for, which my ancestors helped build. Like, why would you ever want to defend bad things?

Well, it is, you know, there is a tendency by people who, if you're pulling away the underpinnings in someone's entire worldview, they usually get very defensive about that. You're right. You're totally right. By the way, I've been there. So I have felt defensive. When I first heard Alex Jones' question 9-11, I was outraged by it. I was totally outraged by it. And so in a reflexive, stupid way. Well, I remember just because I was like very on, I was very on board with the Ron Paul presidential campaigns. This was my like radicalizing moment was Ron Paul running for president. And I remember that you were hosting the event that he had.

I can't remember what it was called. Very well, it was the Rally for the Republic. The Rally for the Republic. I should have remembered that. I was the MC of that. So at the the time it was a really big deal for us that we had you i remember seeing it and because it was like ron paul was getting blacked out in all the the you know mainstream media as we used to call it at the time yeah uh and but we had tucker carlson we had like one of the big players in that world hosting the event. And I remember when you walked out, well, you, I saw like an interview with you where someone was like, Hey, why'd you walk out of that event? And you were like, I don't know, man, the, the saying

nine 11 was an inside job stuff was just a bridge too far for me. And honestly, I totally understood that at the time I was just pissed off at Jesse Ventura. Cause I was like, come on, dude, we actually got like a chance here to make a mark and then you're going to go start spouting out with these conspiracies. But, you know, he believed it. I mean, I think Jesse Ventura is a whole rabbit hole I won't even go down, but I think Jesse Ventura

is a very flawed guy. For sure, we're all flawed people. I'm a little less judgmental than I used to be now that I know the depth of my own shittiness. But, which I think is important. Meditate every day on your death and your own flaws and you'll be a happy person with better perspective but um i i shouldn't have done that i don't i don't know why you know so my views are so different but anyway the point is i understand what you're saying well it's also that you you know it's not even it's not even necessarily that you would have

to like all these years later be convinced that he was right it's just i think after so many years of seeing how evil the our government actually can be that you go like okay i'm listening all right fine i i dismissed that out of hand but now i'm more or how about the only question that matters is whether or not something is true yeah and i another way to put it a phrase that i've coined and make copyright is facts don't care about your feelings that's a good one you like that someone should really run with that i like that that's a good you could get a long way you get like a special deal with facebook on that on the basis of that um but uh but but i actually agree i agree with that right and i agree i don't think you should hurt people's feelings on purpose,

but I think the core question, the only one that matters is something true. And I know that you share that, and that's why I hate to beat up on Port Douglas, who's like a sad character, but he had this line in here. Oh, this isn't... Sorry, I never go to my notes, but I'm...

No, I... This is from a guy called Sam Harris. I'm loosely familiar. So one of the easiest decisions you're going to make this week is to make your home secure with SimpliSafe. The moment you arm your system, your family and everything you work for is protected. And you can focus on what matters. You can leave the house without worrying that someone is going to break in and steal your stuff, violate your sanctuary. Because the best security system in the country is watching. Millions of Americans use SimpliSafe

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of the truth i feel like maybe you lie under duress but in general you you are like very focused on what you think is true well i mean again i i just feel like it's a i i benefit in a way from us having this conversation like after covid and after kind of all of these insane things that okay so sam harris what did i get wrong like i don't think that if you're gonna if you're gonna smear me as i'm being a misinformation or which i you know i'll take that to i should make t-shirts t-shirts about misinformation artists i'll take that pure misinformation misinformation everything you say is a lie it's like breathing to you dude i got i got called that throughout all of covid and I was right about everything I was saying.

So keep calling me this. Okay, fine. Make an argument. But who is Sam Harrison? Why is he so mad at you? Oh, well, Sam Harrison— I thought he was a rationalist, right? Oh, yeah. He's the guy who defended the war in Iraq and torture and fell for the Russiagate bullshit, thought Trump was a Russian spy, fell for lockdowns and vaccine mandates and all this stuff. So I'll put my misinformation track record up against Sam Harris's, you know, whatever. I mean, I know he's got a meditation app or something like that. Did you see the Tim Dillon thing the other day?

Oh, dude, it's so great. That was like, I texted him. I see the Tim Dillon thing the other day? Oh, so, oh, dude, it's so great. That was like, I texted him. I said it was so funny. He, Tim Dillon, the brilliant comedian. He's the best. I was thinking about how Sam Harris has a meditation app. I didn't even know that. So by day, he's a meditation guru.

And by night, he's encouraging like carpet bombing of children. I mean, it's just on, it's just too ridiculous. And, you know, all, you know, all of these guys, it's sad in a way because you can't contradict yourself on what your entire purpose was for your entire career without some people noticing. And that's kind of what's going on with all these guys. But why the emotion? So I notice it even now in our conversation, there's a lightness to the way you describe things. You obviously have passionate views, but you don't seem emotionally overwrought. Douglas seemed emotionally overwrought. This guy, Harris, seems emotionally overwrought. They seem very emotional. What is that? Well, I mean, I would say that, kind of ironically, although not really actually ironic, and this kind of goes to, you know,

the conversation that you and Brett Weinstein were having the other day. I really love Brett. I think he's great. I'm on your side of that debate. i think one of one of the fundamental flaws in atheism is that it doesn't really exist yes they think that's the flaw in believing in god no they see they think they think the flaw in believing in god is that god really doesn't exist god does exist what doesn't exist are atheists there's no such true. And you could even get into an, like, maybe if there was such thing as atheists, it would be a good thing to be one. But there aren't. They don't exist. They all have their religion. And it's almost by definition that whatever your highest thing is becomes your religion. I don't know if it's quite by definition, and I suppose it is theoretically

possible to be an atheist, but almost no one ever is. And so, what you're seeing is just that, you know, I'm attacking their religion. And according to them, that makes me guilty of blasphemy. But it's just so interesting that they're so brittle about it. You'd think if you're an atheist, you'd be like, does it really matter? I mean, there's no right or wrong, obviously, because who's the authority on that? Well, there is no authority. So it's all just a matter of preference. And in the end, you just cease to exist.

And so the stakes are zero. So what are you so mad about? Like, why do you care? You'd think everyone would be like. Well, I'll take it a step further. Sam Harris does not believe in free will. So what is he upset with me about? I have no choice.

No, you're just i have to be a misinformation artist this is what i'm i'm wired to be a misinformation artist right so what are you upset with and he's not even making the choice to say that listen anytime and this was one i again i really really like brett but i think one of the the areas where he failed kind of in that conversation with you in that very friendly debate is that he had to say several times throughout it, yes, yes, I live as if what you're saying is correct, but I view things this way.

So yes, I'd much rather live, but if your thesis involves you having to engage in a performative contradiction, then something's not right with your theory. And so Sam Harris will sit here and say, none of us have free will, but I'm still going to act as if all of us have free will. You've got a major flaw in your theory. This is just too much. This is too far. You can't do that. That's not right. And so, yes, again, with all of them. The bottom line, I think, with a lot of these people, like, and some have adapted better than others. I think Brett's one of the ones who's really adapted well from, like, the old academia world to this new podcast world that we're in now. But I think the problem with a lot of them, like Sam Harris, and I think Douglas Murray too, is that what they've worked their entire career on has been completely rejected. And that's a tough position to be in. Not really. I mean, I spent my whole life in cable news.

It obviously is in terminal decline. I had all kinds of views that I argued for passionately. They were totally wrong. I had all kinds of views that I argued for passionately. They were totally wrong. I admitted it. I gained perspective and humility in admitting it. You're just a human being. Yeah, but that, listen, that may have happened kind of naturally for you. I'm just saying, when you run it on scale, very few people are able to do that. It's not hard. It's the only act of liberation that's really possible in this life is freeing yourself from like the lies and the number one

lie is i'm god yeah and like i'm omniscient or the you know was perfectly wise person whatever it's like you know you make mistakes you're you're a ridiculous primate it's a little bit fur like just admit it there's just there look you got some things wrong yeah but It's a little bit fur, like just admit it. There's just there. Look, you got some things wrong, but there's a difference between that and your entire foundation being built on hypocrisy and that hypocrisy being shown, you know, look, I mean, you can't make this stuff up right ben shapiro built a career opposing identity politics as a proud zionist yeah now you listen feel however you feel about zionism it's identity politics like like that is the definition of you could not find a better example of a politics built on an identity.

And yet you're out here saying facts don't care about your feelings. Identity politics is wrong. And then while you're saying that your number one priority is this, this manifestation of identity politics. You can only keep that charade going for so long before someone sees through it. There's something in people that the lowest part of people that instinctively accuses others of doing what they're doing and i've never really i try man i don't that's the one thing i don't want to be as a guy who does that but i remember bill kristoff who i worked for for years and really liked and was grateful to and he was a great boss in the 90s, and came out against me and called me a Nazi and all this stuff, like without calling me.

By the way, I called him and asked him to lunch. He refused. He wouldn't go to lunch with me. End of our relationship. But one of the criticisms against me, I'll never forget it when I realized this phenomenon was real, was when he accused me of advocating, and I'm quoting, for an ethnostate.

Now, I have a lot of flaws. They're all on display. I've never for an ethno state now i have a lot of flaws they're all on display i've never wanted an ethno state and it's like wait one of us is for an ethno state and it's not me but you just said that like of all the possible criticisms it's just too unbelievable i mean it's like you just don't crystal accusing me of wanting an ethno state but you like you just like you almost like don't even, you can't even respond. You just have to go like. It's like, I didn't say anything. I was like, okay.

Right. Yes. You know, people can't hear themselves. I mean, you know, some people get old. You know, they tell the same stories. And you just, you know, when you love them, you're indulgent. But I just hope that doesn't happen to me i hope i don't lose all self-awareness to the point where i've got like lunch on my chin

and like accuse other people of doing exactly what i'm doing yes exactly what i'm doing while you're going you have lunch on your chin like you know yeah that's you don't want to be there i don't want to be that um and i think that there's like look obviously like we're we're living through something you know we're probably living through several things that are very profound but one of the most profound things has been this revolution in in um information and the technology and this it's led to this like kind of mass decentralization of media and where there's now like, there's so many things and shows and different voices. You know, I find people all the time who I've never heard of before, you know, and I'm sure you've had this experience too. You'll find someone, you'll be like, oh,

that guy's actually really smart. People should know about this guy. How many followers? 7 million. Oh, he's got 7 million followers. Oh, he's huge. Like I just found some guy who is bigger than anyone on cable news and I didn't even know he existed, you know? And so now it's just because of this dynamic, there aren't, you know, as you know, the corporate media apparatus, like big newspapers and big cable news shows and things was very controlled, very controlled. The range of allowable opinion was very narrow. It's what my good friend and brilliant historian Tom Woods always called the, was it the three by six card of allowable opinion. You get this little area of allowable opinion, and then that's where the conversation takes place. That's been shattered into a million pieces. And now there's voices from all over the

place and some good and some great and some bad and really bad, but it's just much harder for people to, you know, that control existed so that you don't get exposed so that you don't get exposed so that you could go like, look, even the right winger, John McCain agrees, or even the far left activist, Nancy Pelosi. I mean, it's like, do you have to hear it? Or AOC. Sean Hannity goes, the far left, Nancy Pelosi. It's like, how many leftists have you actually talked to? And you're like, how many leftists have you ever read?

You think Nancy Pelosi is a far leftist? Like, really? Living on her vineyard in Napa? All these different, you know, these different tools of corporations are left and right. But so that's over now. And now I think it's just much tougher to keep this charade going. It seems to be collapsing so fast.

Yes. Yes. And it's not, again, you could be honest about it and kind of maintain some of your respect. But the truth is that, like, look, even when they'll say these things, like, if you accuse Ben Shapiro of having dual loyalty, they go, oh, that's an anti-Semitic trope. That means you hate the Jews. But then he'll sit there in his own words and say, I forget his exact quote, but it was something like, my favorite thing about the United States of America is that it protects Israel. And so you're already saying you have loyalty to both of these countries. In fact, I'm not so sure

about one of the loyalties, but I'm very sure about the other one. And that is not, I'm sorry, that's not a statement against Jewish people. I'm Jewish. I love Jewish people. You know, it's like I get called a self-hating Jew on Twitter or whatever. It could not be further from the truth. I actually really love Jewish people. There's many things about Jewish culture that have, you know, had a huge impact on me, made me the person I am, made me a better person for their impact on me. But this is a foreign government. Like, I'm sorry. We're allowed to talk about that. If you, you know, I saw Glenn Beck the other day had Douglas Murray on. And he wasn't like, Glenn Beck wasn't like mean to me personally, but which I appreciated.

But he was just going, I mean, it was just so ridiculous. But it's like, you were sitting here, we're gonna, we're having a conversation about a foreign government. You started crying on your show a conversation about a foreign government you started crying on your show talking about this foreign government that's fucking weird that's weird we should not be doing that what the hell is going on here like i don't even think you should cry about our own government you know but if you're gonna cry about one it should be ours and no but no one would even think to cry about it right i mean like come on like let's have a real conversation about this and if you don't

especially and by the way this is not my primary goal my primary goal is to tell the truth and to advocate for what's good for our country um but if you're concerned about like the young men getting a little bit too radical and being too obsessed with the Jews or too against the Jews, which I do think is a legit concern. It definitely is. You know, that's not good for you. And it's not good for you. It's not good for the conflict.

It's not good for the country. I just don't think any of racial collectivism always leads to bad places. I totally agree. You don't want to embrace that stuff. But if you're concerned about that, well, then the first thing you have to do is tell the truth. You can't keep lying to people. And you can't keep sitting here and going like, oh, no, the neoconservative. You can't say neoconservative, right? Isn't that Mark Levin? Didn't he just say it's the neoconservative?

Mark Levin, who I also know, I mean, I've been in right-wing world my whole life. I know everybody. I work with Mark. I've always gotten along with Mark. Always been nice to me. But yeah, he just accused Trump, the Trump administration of anti-Semitism for calling someone a neocon. Well, what he did was he accused Steve Witkoff of anti-Semitism. Right.

And I just want to say, I think Steve Witkoff is, if there's anyone who is, you know, has the hand of God on him, it seems to me, I sort of overstated, but I feel that way. It's Witkoff,

who's like a thoroughly decent man and who was running around the world trying to bring peace between nations. And also, by the way, who single-handedly saved 20 Jewish hostages. Well, exactly. I mean, I don't know

if they were all Jewish. I think most of them were. I think almost all of them were. But I think they got 20 hostages released in, exactly. I mean, I don't know if they were all Jewish. I think most of them were. I think almost all of them were. But I think they got 20 hostages released in the phase one of the ceasefire that he worked out. Then Israel violated the ceasefire, and so they didn't get the other hostages back, although, thankfully, the American was just released.

But this guy, Witkoff, has actually done more to help those hostages. So here's what, I mean, here's what he said. I actually wrote this down because I was really bothered by it um this is levin on twitter mark levin who works at fox which is like basically seems to turn its programming over to advocating for a war with iran um neocon is a pejorative for jew unbelievable and this is in response to wickhoff saying quote the neocon element believes that war is the only way to solve things so you have mark levin calling steve wickhoff an anti-semite

right right and again we've reached peak crate i mean i think yes it's jewish right again again but it's i don't even know but again it shouldn't matter it shouldn't really matter it doesn't matter he's american and he's on the side of peace. And so I'm for that guy. But, you know, the crazy thing. So I also, at one point in the debate with Douglas Murray, I said something about the neoconservatives and he went, oh, the N-word, you know, making a play on the N-word or whatever. And it's interesting.

I mean, Douglas Murray wrote the book called neoconservatism why we need it it was his book and so what happened was for people who don't like know you know a lot about this it's there there was a this was their term the neoconservative was not a pejorative term until the neoconservatives got control of our foreign policy and ruined everything. And then it became a term that we'll call every war hawk. We'll be like, oh, another neocon. Now, a lot of times we will use the term when, strictly speaking, this person may not have been a self-identified neoconservative. It's just become a pejorative for someone trying to get us in a stupid war. But the neoconservatives themselves the original group this was their name oh i know for themselves there and you right you were there

you worked alongside them i worked for that i worked for bill crystal for five and a half years i was a neocon yes it wasn't until and they had no they had no neocon but look they had no problem using the term until everybody started to hate them. And then they went, you can't call us this. But it's like, no, you guys, like this was your own term that you used for yourself. You can read their own documents in the Project for a New American Century. You read the clean break memo. They laid out what they wanted their foreign policy to be. I mean, literally, right. Wasn't it? Oh, God, I can't remember whose quote it was. I know that a bunch of them loved sharing it. But what is it? That every 10 years, we got to throw a small puny little country up against the wall and

show them who's boss. This was their foreign policy. We need multiple theaters of war in the Middle East in order to ensure the new century is an American century. So immoral and disgusting. Yes. And also that, and look, as anybody can read,

I think we talked about this last time I was on, but anybody can read for themselves the Clean Break Memo. It was written by Richard Perle and David Wormser to Benjamin Netanyahu

that was like, look, here is our plan. And the break was from the peace process. The break was from Oslo. And they go, look, here's the plan. You know how Yitzhak Rabin

and all these liberal Jews are saying we have to make peace with the Palestinians so that we can then make peace with the broader Arab world? Well, no. We got a new plan. We're going to break with all of that. We're not doing this land swap thing. We're not giving the Palestinians a state. What we'll do is we'll have America overthrow all of these other governments.

Well, you never have to make peace with the Palestinians. And you can just enjoy domination over the region. And from my reading of it, it does seem to me that a lot of them believed it. I think a lot of them hubris and, yeah, we overthrow Saddam Hussein, this democracy will sweep the region, then we'll overthrow Gaddafi, then we'll overthrow the mullahs in Iran, and then the region will be way better. Except every time they actually did it, it resulted in nothing but disaster, which really could have been very easily predicted and was predicted by wiser people than the neocons. But all these years later, you either have to apologize for your role in this catastrophe or defend your role in this catastrophe and talk about how you still really believe it was the right thing to do.

But you can't sit here and say, you're not an expert and you're a Jew hater if you say the word neoconservative. That's not an appropriate response. But if Mark Levin is calling the Trump administration anti-Semitic, Steve Witkoff, we're at the end of something and the beginning of something new. That's right. Right? I mean, that's so... I almost called Mark when I saw it because I really know him, but I really love Steve Witkoff and I think his decency...

I don't agree with him on everything at all, but his decency is just palpable. I mean, it just comes through. His concern for people, his reasonableness is just so obvious. And the effects of what he's done have been so great. Great for America, great for the world. So I almost, I was so offended. And then I thought, I'm not going to solve anything by calling Mark Levin and scolding him.

Are we screaming at me? But I did think like, he's not stupid. If you're saying, if you're calling Steve Witkoff an anti-Semite on Twitter, like, you know, you're losing're losing right is that what that is and it's such a um you know in the what's what's weird is that at the same time because i know all of these these people will they'll be lecturing me about how i don't understand like the gravity of anti-semitism and it's like no actually i kind of do. And I would never just throw the accusation around like that. I'm very hesitant to ever call any person a bigot or a Jew hater or racist or any of these things, because it's like you're intentionally trying to dehumanize

them on the accusation that they're dehumanizing others. It's scaring the crap out of people. I'm getting texts from people I really love personally who are very, very, you know, who aren't paying a lot of attention. They just hear that there's anti-Semitism and I'm part of it and it hurts their feelings and they're confused and upset and it's like it has such a divisive

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I am not a conservative. I mean, I'm a bit of me as somebody who is, I am not a conservative. I mean, I'm a bit of a right winger, but I'm not a conservative. I'm kind of a radical libertarian. Well, if Tom Tillis is what a conservative is, I'm not. Yeah, right. I mean, there are some, as a libertarian, like there certainly are some things that I think ought be conserved. You know, like I think like the Bill of Rights and our traditions and I think Christianity, I think there's a lot of things that like should be conserved. But it's so bizarre to me that now that I'm at this level where it's like I'm talking or talking to, but being lectured to I don't believe in moral relativism. Like, as if this is like a new thing for them to wrap their head around.

Have you gotten calls from Con Inc. trying to bring you into line? I've gotten, for the first time in my career, really, I've gotten a few of the calls. But I mean, I'm too far gone for them. You know, if you were going to get me to sell out, you would have had to get me a while ago. You just shouldn't have let me. Too late. Well, it is.

I remember, so when I, this is like, I want to say like 2014, 2015. It was somewhere in there where I started. The first time I ever got on television, the first person who ever put me on TV was Kennedy, who I just adore and will for the rest of my days. Sweet girl just like one of the sweetest kindest really funny yeah really smart weirdly smart yes but like when i say weirdly smart i i mean weirdly smart like knows about stuff that no one should know about and then has like a lot of information about it but she's a wonderful

person so she was a she put me on Fox business and then Greg Gutfeld and Tom Shalhoub, who was hosting Red Eye at the time, they started using me on their Fox news shows. And so it was like the first time in my career, I'd like started getting on TV. And I remember a few people at Fox and told me that they were like, Hey, there's like some people in management are like interested in you. Like they're, they're taking, hey, there's like some people in management are like interested in you. Like they're taking, you know, some interest in you. And then it was kind of explained to me, not like ever directly, but it was like, you know,

you're a little out there for Fox News. And I remember at the time I was broke. I mean, dead broke. Only on just to be, put a finer point in that. What do they mean? Not in your personal life. Your personal life is more buttoned down than most people who work at Fox. Well, at the time it wasn't. This is before I was married and had kids and stuff.

But believe me, that's not what they care about. I found out pretty quickly by just doing shows at Fox News and then going to the bar afterward with some of the people there, you're like, oh, Conservatism Inc. is not exactly what you thought. They're actually pretty liberal when it comes down to the bar hang after the show i would say but but it was you know i was a ron paul guy and and i was i was younger so i was a more you know you know ron

paul was a country doctor wearing a suit and tie i was like a kid from brooklyn who was like you're all a bunch of killers you know like this is all bullshit it was the foreign policy stuff it was all the foreign policy as it always is as it's that's always what it's really all about um and i don't say that because i want it to be the case it's just the fact that that's always really what it's all about it took me 40 years to figure this out but yes that's you're right you're correct by the way all these uh all of these even debates today the people on twitter talking about the woke right It just happens to be that everyone who's labeled woke right are the ones who are opposing American wars.

And everybody who's throwing out the accusation all happen to support them. What's woke right? Coincidence. It's a nonsense term that they're trying to say. It's totally ridiculous. But let me just, on the Fox News thing. So I remember then, and this is time, I was broke.

I mean like broke like where they're like, hey, let's go grab a beer after the show. I'm like, remember then, and this is time I was broke. I mean, like broke, like where they're like, Hey, let's go grab a beer after the show. I'm like, all right, are you buying? Cause if not, like, let's go grab a six pack at the store and go back to my apartment and sip them. Cause like, I just had no money. And I would have at the time when they said they were like, look, they're thinking about you for one of these contributorships, you know, it was whatever it is. It may give you like a hundred grand a year or something like that. If you get one, it would have been like life-changing for me, life-changing. And I remember consciously at the time thinking, you know, at a time when I'm making 25 grand a year thinking, man, maybe I just don't talk about

the foreign policy stuff. Maybe I just do that. And then even in the moment I thought about it, just being like, nah, Ron Paul's my hero. My hero are the people who tell the truth. Yes. So like, I'm just not going to, but so if I didn't, if I didn't sell out then, the idea that I'm going to sell out now when I'm doing really well,

it's like, no, that's ridiculous. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, that's, that's insane. It was just funny that I think that, that Murray thought he was administering the kill shot. I think that's what it was just funny that i think that um that murray thought he was administering the kill shot i think that's what it was supposed to be but the opposite happened it's like i i and not to brag i knew this as i was watching it i was like davis about to become way more famous but not just famous more authoritative more respected more closely listened to than ever before. Has that

been your experience? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's essentially just done nothing except make me bigger, you know? Were you, did you pay Douglas to do that? I did not. I don't have that type of money. Did he throw the fight out for a bit? I wish I had that. I'm doing okay. I don't have money like that. I don't have buy off Douglas Murray money. I think he's getting- I don't think it would take too much. Well, it's not just, you know, one of the things that was interesting is that it's not just, so there was the debate, there was the reaction to the debate, but then what was really interesting is that then there was the reaction to, just because it became such a big thing, it ended up

coming up on Rogan's podcast with other guests later on. And they're all just kind of making fun of Douglas and how ridiculous he was, because he was ridiculous. And then it's almost like you see the realization set in with those people that, oh shit, Joe was... What essentially happened here, right? And this is, I think, for almost everyone to see is that I've been debating all these guys on Israel-Palestine and I've been debating all these guys on Israel-Palestine, and I've been beating all these guys in these debates. And I'm not saying I'm beating, I'm just saying like the reaction, the Oxford-style voting is that I win dominantly. And then Douglas Murray was almost brought in as the king boss.

Dad's here. Right. Like this is the, I mean, Ben Shapiro is not going to do it. He's not going to come debate me. And so who is it? Who's the best guy to come to? Well, here's Douglas Murray, the guy who's just known for his prose and his rhetoric and how good he is at debating. I mean, this is what he's known for. And then he came in and couldn't lay a land to blow. He couldn't take on one argument. He had to just be resorted to like, it was like you were debating an anti-racist college professor on what, who's just going to tell you the whole time that I'm not even allowed to have this opinion.

Yeah, totally. It was just that. And so then what do you think the response to that was? Here's, here you have Joe Rogan, who has got some of these guys on his show who clearly are making a case where he goes, all right, yeah, this is a pretty good argument that this guy's making. And he brought, you know, as much as Douglas was complaining in his op-eds after the fact that it's so unfair that I couldn't just go on alone. I had to go on with this guy who doesn't know what he's talking about. It's like, yeah, but this was your opportunity, man. You could have blown me out of the water and then had Rogan being like, ah, shit, maybe I should have

more experts on. Like maybe I've got this comedian guy who I think is making really good points, but then this guy just came in and like totally took him on. Like, maybe I've got this comedian guy who I think's making really good points, but then this guy just came in and, like, totally took him on, and, but he was unwilling or unable to do that. And so, that was the next freak out, is they realized that, like,

oh, Joe just got pushed more in my direction, as his whole audience did. I wonder, though, if there's not something a little more sinister underneath it. I mean, you keep referring

to this as a debate, but it wasn't. No, that's not a debate. It was Douglas trying to scold Joe into never having you or anyone like you on his show again. It was basically he was playing the heavy. Yeah, a little bit. It was kind of threatening. I thought like, you know, you don't really know because you were a sitcom actor slash comedian slash bow hunter that actually you're playing with some pretty serious shit, Joe Rogan. And we've been watching and maybe you should stop having these people on. Yeah, that was definitely the vibe I got from it. Oh, no question. It was they even use the word when he was talking to Barry Weiss, you know, that embodiment of expertise that is Barry Weiss. They were talking and he used the word platforming that joe shouldn't be platforming all of these people it's like okay so you're you look i'm saying this is just animal farm right we're at the end of animal farm where the pigs and

the people are indistinguishable like if you're a conservative using the word platform as a verb yeah like how long before you call me a white supremacist actually which essentially i guess white supremacist isn't the term but anti-semite is the term that they're going with it's the exact same playbook it's and then they have the balls to whip around and call you woke right yes that's right i'm like right it's bill crystal calling me a you know and calling for an ethnoate. Yes, it's all the same thing, right? You're sitting here, we have in this country right now, we have speech laws being passed, you know, in the name of students feeling not safe on college campuses. And you get the accusation of

bigotry used to shut down real dissent and real conversations. And then they're going to turn around and say the other side is woke so that's when I stopped laughing that I mean that is shocking to me and the fact that the Congress had scheduled it was thanks to Marjorie Taylor Greene it was pulled off the schedule but God bless her but

what a weird world we're in where she's the savior Marjorie Taylor Greene that's where we're at you know why because Marjorie is totally sincere where she's the savior. Marjorie Taylor Greene is who, that's where we're at. You know why? Because Marjorie is totally sincere. Yeah. She's actually not a liar. She's sincere.

That's why they hate her. But, but there was a lost vote scheduled on a bill that would have made it a felony for Americans

to participate in a boycott of Israel. And as someone who has zero interest in participating in any kind of boycott, much less against Israel, I'm just not interested. I'm happy to whatever, buy the hummus and use the software, I don't care. But I probably would have engaged in one just to make the point that I'm a free man

in a free country, and we can't, like, how could you even consider voting on something like that? And isn't the most outrageous part of it, at least to me i mean i guess it's all outrageous but the most the crazy thing is that we've and we've seen this in uh in the last decade where all like hollywood types and like big musicians would boycott red states like if they tried to pass like a six-week heartbeat bill for abortion or the bathroom yeah boycott so you could boycott states in our own country but you can't boycott a foreign country and it's like the the double standard there again this is why i said the thing about like relativism um because in the same way that um you know that people will talk about constantly and the same people who will harp on, you know,

anti-Semitism on Twitter. And like, I'm not denying something's going on there, clearly. Big time. Like there's a real thing happening here. Big time. And it's not, as I've said, and again, this isn't necessarily the most important aspect to it, but personally, one of the things that annoys me about that is like, it's not helping my argument. It's not, it's an albatross around my neck. And it's the reason why every goddamn debate that I'm in, the first thing they're going to bring up is, well, look at all these people on Twitter who

are saying all this stuff. So I wish those people would knock it off. But you also, okay, we don't need two standards here. One standard will do just fine. Let's have one standard and apply this across the board. Because the amount of anti-Muslim bigotry, anti-Palestinian bigotry, dehumanizing of the entire Palestinian people. Which Sam Harris has engaged in for 20 years. Yeah, that's right. And then they're going to turn around and be like, oh, my God, there's all this dehumanizing bigotry out there. It's like, yeah, none of that is good. None of that is good. It's not good for you. It's not good for the conversation.

It's just bad. You don't want to dehumanize an entire group of people ever. You want to treat human beings like human beings. Yes. And that should be fairly obvious. But also, I will say that Donald Trump, who I voted for and supported in this last election, and I think has done some really good things in his first hundred days or so, and some not so good things. But, you know, I mean, he would turn in the debate and call Joe Biden a Palestinian. He said this about Chuck Schumer, too. He's basically a Palestinian. You're like, whoa.

And for all the people who have been screaming bigotry for the last decade, no one ever thought to be like, hey, you know, that's not like an insult. It's not an insult to call someone a Palestinian. I've met lots of Palestinians who are really great people. There's nothing wrong with them. And again, like if anyone, if a presidential candidate ever like stood up in the debate and went, oh, this guy's a real Jew, we'd all be like, whoa, what the hell is that? You don't get to say that in a political debate. And so there's this, there's a ton of this. I'll be like, whoa, what the hell is that? I know. You don't get to say that in a political debate. I know.

And so there's this, there's a ton of this. You have, you know, Nikki Haley going over and signing bombs. It's hard to overstate how much I hate that, by the way. Yeah. Well, right. And I mean. There are a lot of unreasonable Palestinians, of course. There are also some wonderful, a lot of Christian, a lot of Christian Palestinians, a lot of wonderful Muslim Palestinians. So I hate that. I just want to say that. Yeah, it's terrible. a lot of christian a lot of christian palestinians a lot of wonderful muslim palestinians um so i

hate that yeah it's terrible yeah it's terrible it's terrible on any side you don't dehumanize people like that yeah um and so when what's his name um i'm blinking what's that the congressman in florida randy fine is fine his last name i don't know but did you see the stuff he's posted like a nut oh my god it's just you know so again okay you want to talk about one who's like we want to kill all their children or something well someone basically like uh i think someone tweeted like a picture of a dead palestinian baby and he said like good we need more or something like that it was something really close to that i don't i don't want to get this wrong you could vote for someone like that trump

endorsed him after that. After he said it was good that a baby was dead? I mean, you know, again. I would love to have him on and just ask him about that. Pull up the actual tweet on that because I don't want to misremember it, but it was something really egregious. And he's, you know, there's just, look, there's a lot of this stuff. It's how you get Nikki Haley signing bombs that are about to go get dropped on women and children. You're like, I'm sorry.

That's fucking sickening. Like, what the hell is that? Like, what are we, a part of some death cult or something? I mean, this is like real. And so, of course, then, you know, Douglas Murray's book is like democracies and death cults or whatever. And which is kind of funny in a way to be pro democracies while you're also making the argument for expertise. Because you would think like if you're for democracy, the whole point of this, the whole point of experts is to explain it to regular people who will ultimately have the authority of deciding which experts are in charge and which experts are not in charge. You know, there's a little contradiction there. But again, this is my issue. And this is where i think tucker in some way we're really like kindred spirits what a higher iq you have than douglas

murray it just cracks me up well he's he's got a very high verbal iq he's more talented in a lot of ways for me i'm just i'm i'm telling the truth um no no but i mean that's such a deep contradiction that i doubt he's aware of. Probably not. But I will say this, and this is where I think in some ways, this is why me and you always get along. I think we're kindred spirits in this way in some sense. For sure. But I really do.

I mean this. I mean this so sincerely. In my soul, in my heart of hearts, I'm a crotchety old right winger. Yeah. Like that's who I want to be. Okay. That's what I try my best. I want to be, I'm not just like a Western chauvinist or whatever. Like I think Western

society is better than everything else. I think it's, I'm a libertarian and I think it's one of the goofiest things about libertarians in general that they kind of try to run away from that and be egalitarian to some degree. That's ridiculous. What do you tell you? You believe in individual liberty? Well, then you don't get to say every civilization is equal because only one of them respects individual liberty. And that's the better one. Okay.

That's the, I, by your own definition. That's right. So screw all this other egalitarianism is a revolt against nature. As the great Murray Rothbard wrote, it's, I'm against all of that. I don't believe in relativism. I don't believe in all cultures are equal. I would like to sit here and look down on the Muslim world. That's what I would like to do because my society is so much better. And if anything, I'd be lecturing you. You guys got to do liberty better. You guys don't really even understand how

a free society works. I'd like to be there. That's actually what confirms my bias is like stuff like that. The problem is I just know too much about our government and what our government's done to these people and not just what we've done to them, but that we've been propping up the Islamists for 40 years. So what are we talking about here? You can't then turn around and go, look at them. They're a bunch of Islamists. No, I know what you did. You propped up the Islamists and you didn't have to deal with the commies. Like of any of that i just again i insist on one standard for everything if you're gonna say hamas is a death cult what the hell is the u.s government what is the israeli government you get to sit here as my government has in the last 25 years destroyed Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Yemen,

Ukraine, and now Gaza. That's what my government's done. I don't get to call someone else a death cult. I'd like to. I'd like to just look down at them as a death cult, but sorry, we're the biggest purveyors of violence in the world, not Vladimir Putin. And like, again, it's just, if you look at these things, you just have to have one standard and apply them across the board. This is what I've been arguing the whole time. And if you're going to say, it's like, okay, October 7th was horrible. It was absolutely horrible. Why was it horrible? Oh yeah. Because intentionally killing innocent civilians is like one of the most evil things you could ever do. Okay, then. Because people are what matter. Yeah. In the end, right? And all your theories are valid to the extent that they serve people. And when they hurt people, then they're invalid, you know, I think.

Yeah, I think so. So, you said that there's this brand new media landscape, information landscape, possibility of true free thinking and free speech. I think it's all true because the old control system has shattered, as you said. So we're living in this just incredible moment. How long can it last? That's a good question. It's very hard to make predictions because it's such a new model. And it's like, we really don't know much about this. One of the things that I find, which you never want to get ahead of yourself, especially these days, and there's so many things that could happen that it's kind of impossible to even know what 2028 looks like. Yes. So I'm assuming right now J.D. Vance is probably

going to be the guy. Hope so. Yeah, I hope so too. And so you look at this dynamic where you go, okay, so part of, so you look at Kamala Harris's campaign and say Joe Biden the same way, and Joe Biden specifically because he was senile, not, senile. Joe Biden, younger Joe Biden, while he was never a very bright guy, maybe would have been a little bit different politically. But Kamala Harris, so she kind of famously, infamously now, turned down the Joe Rogan experience. She could have been on the show, but she didn't. Now, a lot of people were saying, oh, what a stupid move, turning that down i kind of disagree i go it probably was the right move you know if you're if you're in if you had no soul and you're working

for the kamala harris campaign and your only objective in this world was to get her elected and that invite came in you're probably going no no no no no no you can't you will be exposed you can't go do this the the fact is that kamala Harris, by the nature of who she is as a person and by the nature of what she was running on, is not built for a three-hour unedited, unscripted conversation. You can't do that. Say whatever you will about Donald Trump, the man's got a lot of flaws, but he is built for that. He could do eight hours, I think. Easily. Without going to the bathroom right yeah which is what i heard and joe said he didn't go before or after true i've never done the jailrode experience and not gone to the bathroom

before or after the mid-break leak always yeah of course this is insane the guy's not human it's unbelievable but okay so going just into 2028 think about what a change this is. This is the new standard to be a presidential candidate. You have to be able to go and do a three hour podcast and actually probably several of them. Right. I mean, Trump did a whole bunch of them before he got elected and she didn't and lost. That's it. And so that in itself just changes everything. Now we have to actually see who you are as a person, you know, because it doesn't even matter. It doesn't even matter what you're talking about for three hours. It doesn't even matter if you're getting grilled. So true. It's just, I get to see who you are and it comes out. So, okay. No one can play a role for three hours. Right. So that's the new normal. You know, that in itself is a huge transformation. I think that has to be stopped. I think that has to be stopped.

And, you know, I don't want to be like too paranoid, but one of the, I think some of the anger and the hate online is, you know, is organic and it's rooted in frustration and facts in some cases and i you know i'm not it's not all bad but some of it is so clearly inorganic it just obviously is that you sort of wonder like is this all a pretext for shutting it down i just can't escape that. Yeah. I, I, I get your point. And certainly, you know, like, I never know what is, you know, a pretext or what is not, but it's certainly like, oh, this is going to be used that way. So like, that's another thing. It's very short sighted, you know, for,

for anyone, you know, it's kind of like nobody ever, which I get it. It's, it's a little bit difficult to do because it's like second or third order thinking, but no one ever kind of thinks about like what the reaction is going to be to what they're doing. It's just whether they can get away with it in the moment. But it's not the fact that it's like, hey, there is going to be a correction for this and almost certainly an overcorrection because that's always the case you know it doesn't seem like any of those uh leftists ever thought about when they were pushing like all the trans and the kids stuff they'd be like what do you think the result of this is gonna be you go oh here's the result donald trump winning every swing state that's the result oh and a handmaid's tale like ultimately we're gonna have sharia law well it's but it. You know, it's totally right. People are always like, really, how did the Muslims take over Europe? Because Europe went tranny? That's why? Right, right, right.

You're going to see white girls begging for Sharia law by the end. And of course, there's many factors involved, but there's there's an onus on say people who do you know want who were against the censorship regime and were against or are against the u.s is israeli you know special relationship it's like okay but if you've got the freedom to actually speak about this now understand a couple things understand that like you're getting something that generations before you they never had generations before you your career would have been ruined you never would have been allowed to say these things and there does that carries with it a responsibility you know it carries with it a responsibility to do this in a way that like number one one, you're getting it right. You're not being sloppy. You're not leading people down a bad path. You're not demonizing people who don't deserve to be

demonized, who are not a part of this. And ultimately that you won't be handing the excuse to the other side who obviously, as you said, needs to reign this in. These guys cannot compete in a free market. And so they have to rig the market in their favor. Forever they had the market rigged in their favor. For the first time now, they kind of don't. They still do a little bit, but they don't in terms of the conversation. They still certainly do

in terms of the power of government, but they don't in terms of the conversation. It's like, okay, what do you want to do with that now? The problem is that so much has been hidden either intentionally or just through kind of the veil of misdirection that people are learning a lot of stuff at once. Yeah. And it's frying some circuits. And I think the thing that I try to meditate on every single day is that I am commanded to and intend to treat each individual as an individual, period, period. Yeah. And when you do that, it keeps you from going totally insane. And it also opens you up to the beauty of life, to the joy of life,

which is being surprised by people and their complexity, good and bad. And like the capacity of someone like Steve Witkoff to like do stuff. If you'd asked me, can Witkoff do that? I don't know. I mean, I knew Witkoff before, but like, look what Witkoff is doing. It's incredible. I don't know. It's just treat people as individuals. You're commanded to do that. And I do think it's harder to do that online. Yes, I agree. And I also, you know, it was weird because, so I, you know, it was an interesting experience for me this last month or so, because I've never really, you know, I'm, I think this has helped me in my career is that I didn't like, uh, I didn't blow up out of nowhere. Like I know other people who have in comedy. I

know people who are like, you know, just like exploded, you know, they were in open mics with me and then they got an audition for Saturday night, and then they got it. And now they're world famous. You know, you go literally from being a complete unknown, not even an established comedian, a newer comedian who can't even work the clubs, to being like world famous. I've seen people have that. How'd that work for Britney Spears? It's pretty bad. Well, it's especially bad when you're young. That's the worst time for it to happen.

It happened to me, actually. Right. Yeah. Well, that's right. You had that experience. Luckily, I was humiliated along the way, so it's more normal. But that's the antid time for it to happen. It happened to me, actually. Right. Yeah. Well, that's right. You had that. Luckily, I was humiliated along the way. So it's more normal. But that's the antidote for it in a weird way, right? I totally agree.

Because it's all ego stuff. So the antidote for blowing up your ego is destroying your ego, which is very painful, but it's good. Like a hangover. The hangover is actually getting you healthy. Yes. It sucks, but the hangover is the cure. Getting drunk was the problem.

That's why it's hard to become addicted to cocaine. People seem to pull it off anyway, but I never understood that. How could you get addicted to this? You feel horrible. I know. It is. Well, that's right. Sorry.

Sorry to say that. No, but that's exactly right. Okay, so for me, it was always like a logical progression, like one step more, one step more. My profile kind of rose. But this thing was the biggest thing I've ever done in my career. It was like the biggest reaction to any show or any debate that I've ever done because it was on Rogan's podcast and he doesn't usually do debates and it was the most contentious issue of our day. So it became this big thing. And now I'm at a place where, know i'm 42 i have a great wife i got two

little kids that i play with every day i have a nice house my life is like set up um i'm i'm an adult this isn't so but when the kind of hate attack this coordinated attack and everyone who's attacking me just happens to have like you know their name written in hebrew letters and a jewish star you know in their bio and they're all saying the most vicious stuff i've been sitting here and i'm like wow dude if i were 25 oh yeah and i wasn't jewish i could very easily see my response to this just being like man yeah screw these people you know and like now i'm not saying that would be correct but it's just like you feel that because that's the impulse when you're like a tech but like what you just said i think is the key point which is that like if believing in

individualism is like a grounding force it kind of inoculates you against collectivist nonsense and when i say that, see, one of the problems here now is that the left, which is what they do, is they attack terms and concepts. And so whenever you think about something, you start thinking about the lefty version of it. And it's like, no, no, no, not that at all. So the left kind of made individualism. They kind of mixed it together this like self-actualization type thing like oh all that really matters is like whatever you're feeling and whatever you're feeling is correct and it's correct because you're feeling it and you're feeling it because it's correct and

that's like that's like the devil that's like you do not want to go down that path you do not want to ever say that like well if you feel something inside of you, then that must be true. That's essentially what the trans thing was all based on. Of course. Right? Was this view that, well, if you feel it, then it must be true. Like, that's not where you are. That's the path to hell. You don't want to go down that path. You know, that's, no, that's, it's not true that because you feel something, it therefore should be actualized. And that's terrible. However, more old school individualism, like in the classical liberal enlightenment tradition, is understanding that the individual

is a unit of analysis, that the individuals are how we exist. We act as individuals. We suffer as individuals. We collectivize as individuals. We are born and die as individuals. Exactly. And that collectivism, what collectivism used to mean was the idea that the individual ought to be subservient to the larger group. Not that groups don't exist. Not that we shouldn't come together. Of course, we come and we create families, we create churches, communities, all of these things are wonderful. But when you do understand like true individualism, like that individuals ought to have rights,

things like that, it shields you from a lot of this nonsense. Well, the question is, does the human being have a soul? Yes, exactly. Something that is distinct from all others. There are billions of human beings in this world. You are fundamentally different, not just in your fingerprints and iris scan, but in your soul. This thing that we can't quite define, but that we know is real. Yes, and that's why you have a right.

That's why you have rights to anything. That's the only reason. Exactly. That's the only reason you have a right. I remember I was watching, as I mentioned earlier, I was watching you and Brett Weinstein. Yes. So I was just, yesterday I was watching you and Brett Weinstein. So I was just yesterday was watching this and there was one point where

Brett said, and I think he was completely right about this and you guys kind of agreed, but he said, he goes, you know, the claim that Israel has a right to exist has always seemed a little bit strange to me and he was like, I mean, they do exist, but do they have a right to exist? Well, I think the point is almost this

countries don't have rights. Individuals have rights. You're using an individualist term and then attempting to apply it to a collective government. That's not how it works. Every single individual who has Israeli citizenship has a right to exist. Every single individual who does not have Israeli citizenship has a right to exist. Every Palestinian, this does not have Israeli citizenship has a right to exist. Every Palestinian, this is why people make these arguments. There never was a country called Palestine. Totally irrelevant. Has nothing to do with anything. Doesn't matter if there was a government or a country. It doesn't matter where the lines on a map are drawn. Now, again, this, I'm not making a lefty argument here. I'm not saying, therefore, you can't have immigration

restrictions. Of course you can, because a group of people can own a plot of land and they get to decide who can come and who can't come. But the point is that if you're trying to apply rights to collectives, you're going to realize that it doesn't make sense. And the same way they do this constantly, where they apply things like, they'll say, does Israel have a right to defend itself? You go, no, individuals have a right to defend themselves. And by the way, when I defend myself, I don't have the right to aggress upon other innocent people who happen to be in the general vicinity of the person who I want to defend myself against. Who have competing rights. Exactly.

That are distinct, but equal to mine. Exactly. And that's really all it takes to kind of cure you of a lot of this collectivist nonsense. Yes. And there is something about the form though. I do think form matters in the same way reading a book on Kindle is a different experience

from reading one in print. It just is. Wish it wasn't. There's something about the form of social media that disaggregates people from their souls. Or at least that's my experience of it.

Like you can just get so pissed off that you forget that every person, what was it? You were telling me this at breakfast this morning. You're telling me the preamble to Daryl Cooper's World War II series. Can you just say that? Will you say that?

Yeah, so he hasn't put the series out yet. I think he's he's working on it i hope it's out soon um but so daryl as he talked about on your show is putting together this big world war ii series and when daryl cooper does we're having him back this summer i can't wait i can't wait just also just i'm excited for the reaction uh but i actually think a lot of you know a lot of people are probably going to be disappointed because he's not going to give him you know like he's not going full nazi, you know, like, he's not going full Nazi. Well, that's the thing. Of course not. And it's weirdly the only people, by the way, it's so funny because it's this symbiotic relationship

that you see all the time. It's like the only people who want him to, it's like the Nazis and the Zionists are the ones who are like, please be a Nazi. Please be a, please. So that we have this, you know, everybody else is like, oh, great. They're getting paid from the same source. I suspect some of them are thrown out there. In fact, I don't suspect I know. I'm sure a lot of them are. Yeah. Um, and that's, you know, that's part of this new landscape that, but so he does this, um, he put out the prologue for the series, and he had this wonderful part in it. I hope I can kind of do it justice, but it was so beautiful the way he said it. But he was talking about when you start to think about the people in Germany in World War II,

and how there were little three-year-old girls and eight-year-old boys, and there were women, and there were all that, you know. And if you start to kind of humanize them, or if you start to dehumanize them, as many were making the attempt to do, he said, you might find yourself having two competing voices in your head. Like, on one level, you go, well, of course, there were innocent women and innocent children, and of course, these are people just like anybody else. And then you might have some other voice that goes, well, they were Germans, and it was World War II. course, these are people just like anybody else. And then you might have some other voice that goes, well, they were Germans and it was World War II. So what are you doing?

Trying to humanize anyone. And he goes, okay, that second voice is not you. That's not you. That is a spirit outside of you acting on you. And just so you know, it's the same spirit that was acting on the Nazis when they were talking about Jews. And that's, dude, it's so funny for people trying to demonize this guy.

Like this is who he actually is. When he's talking to his audience and he's got a message to give them, this is the message he's giving them. And man, he's just so right about that. And it's the same thing as like when you see like some hardcore Israel supporter and then some hardcore like radical pro-Palestinian and like they're going like all the jews blah blah blah blah blah and then they're going all the arabs blah blah blah blah and you're like you're the same person both of you are the same person and i'm not trying to completely

equate it because obviously the palestinians have lost in this conflict they're the ones who have been you know truly you know they've been fucked over in a way that the Israelis haven't. But anytime that you're like dehumanizing an entire group of people, setting the stage to then justify some type of brutal aggression that could not be justified without dehumanizing them first, you are participating in the same exercise that is the reason throughout all of human history that we've had genocides and wars and ethnic cleansing campaigns and just horrible atrocities. Don't do that. Whatever you do, if you ever find yourself doing that, don't do it. We're not allowed to do that. I mean, you play with fire when you do that. And I've stayed silent a lot as I've seen it happen

and I feel shame thinking back on it. When Osama bin Laden's wife was shot, I remember thinking, okay, she got shot and married to Osama bin Laden. That's a pretty risky proposition being married to Osama bin Laden and living in Pakistan.

Got it. So I guess, you know, there are risks and she knew what they were. On the other hand, I'm not cheering an unarmed woman getting shot to death under any circumstances.

And I don't want anyone in my country doing that either because I love my country and I love the people who live here and they're my countrymen. And I think it's bad to just stay silent, okay? But don't,

anybody who encourages you to take pleasure at the death of another person is, you know, acting on behalf of forces that we should be rejecting. Yeah. You know, I said this, uh, I don't care who it is. I, I, I was on Lex Friedman's, uh, podcast, um, pretty recently. That guy's a good interviewer. He's great. He's great. Everyone

makes fun of Lex Friedman. I made fun of Lex Friedman probably, or I heard other people do it. I didn't say anything. And then I was interviewed by Lex Friedman. I was like, this guy's weirdly good at this. Yeah. It's really good. It's easy for people to look at it and think they could do it too. It's a skill to interview somebody and he is excellent. Look what he gets. He gets, did he get good, I haven't seen it. Did he get good stuff? Oh, it was great. And he was, you know, he was asking me, like, he started really getting into the detail of like what I believe a just war is and what an immoral war is and why is that? And the example I used, which I think, like, I know you, because I've heard you talk about this stuff too, I think you'll agree with me. But I was like, okay, let's take World War II and let's say

that, like, not only is the official narrative right, let's tweak some things here. It's so much more right than, you know, the Nazis are, if it's possible, they're even worse than the real Nazis were. And if it's possible, they actually were going to take over the world. And actually, we would all be speaking German. Like, let's say not only were they going to take over England, they were going to cross the Atlantic and come take over North America also. And the entire world would have fallen into Nazi totalitarianism had they won the war. And let's say in order to stop the Nazis, we had a way where we could do it where no innocent civilians were killed except one. We could literally just, we could take out the Nazis, save the entire world from totalitarianism. By the way, in this model,

there's no Joseph Stalin. Joseph Stalin's a great guy and the Soviets are a free country. There's no moral questions about who we're working with. Just all of that. All we had to do was we could take out the Nazis by dropping this one super bomb, but one six-year-old girl would be killed. Okay? So I've made it the most clear-cut war in human history. In that scenario, I guess you'd go, look, we have to do this. We have no choice. The whole world will fall to totalitarianism or the whole world can be saved and one six-year-old girl is going to get killed. Okay. I can understand being like, we're making an impossible decision. We have to do this. Every year on the anniversary of that war, we should all like weep to ourselves. We should all feel horrible that we had to do that because

it's a six-year-old girl got killed. Like I a six-year-old girl this is the most this is the most horrible thing in the world that you would ever like kill a six-year-old girl i mean my god i would set the whole world on fire to stop someone from doing anything to my little girl and like so if that were in this very clear-cut scenario not the complexity of real history in this scenario that i'm laying out we should still all be nothing but pity and sorrow that it ever came to out, we should still all be nothing but pity and sorrow that it ever came to that. And we should rack our brains every day thinking, was there any alternative to that? Was there any way that we could have done that without this little girl getting killed? And like, people could say that's kind of like pie in the sky or

hippie-ish or whatever. But at the very least, dude, when you're talking about like inflicting this level of human suffering on people, the onus is always on the people who are advocating for it to absolutely prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that there's no other option, that we've exhausted everything else we could do. It has to be this. And if you come to the conclusion it has to be this, you should still be really sad and somber about it. This spiking the football stuff, having a Bob Hope special after a war, the stuff that America got involved in after the Second World War, it became like kind of like this business of war, this we're spiking the football.

It's just like, it's disgusting. And then you're telling me about how some other society is a death cult. Like, let's examine our own. Well, it is disgusting. And I think you don't have to know the right answer going forward to know what the wrong answer is. Right. And it's just, again, you want to treat, you want to approach life and statecraft and bureaucracy and everything in your life with humility.

Like, I don't always know the outcome. Yeah. I'm not God. I have limited power. I think I know that murdering a six-year-old girl will bring world peace, but what if it doesn't? Right, right. Whatever.

I think dropping an atomic bomb will- On the off chance it doesn't work out? On the off chance. I think dropping the atom bomb will stop an invasion of Japan. Okay. I think dimming the sun will stop global warming, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong because I'm a person. And it's when people stop remembering the limits

to their own wisdom and power that things like that you get genocides and stuff. Well, also, again, like I said before, because this is always just my, it's the way my neurotic brain works or whatever, but I just like can't, like I have this consistency obsession or whatever, but I just like, can't like, I have this consistency obsession or whatever, but you know, I was listening to your, uh, your show with Matt Walsh, uh, the other day. And I, I kind of, I did appreciate some of the things he said about me and the debate with Douglas for a daily wire employee. I think that's about as nice. That's about as good a reaction as I'm going to get. But he was like at one point saying that he was like, well, you know, so then the real important, the good point that he said that Douglas Murray made was when he asked me,

well, then how do you get rid of Hamas? Like, what's your plan? So number one, it's not a point, it's a question. But then Matt Walsh was saying like, well, look, I can understand you saying you're against what Israel is doing, but then what should they do to get rid of Hamas? And it's just interesting to me to see any conservative going, wait a minute, so you're against these babies being killed? And it's like, yes, yes, let's call this, I don't know, let me think of a term for it, the pro-life position. Let's call it that. Remember? Remember the foundational principle that you've been talking about for your entire career? But wait, hold on. So first of all,

before, which by the way, there are lots of other ways to deal with Hamas, obviously, but no, actually, I don't have to solve that problem before I can object to killing innocent children, right? Like, no, it is not incumbent on the pro-life person to work out a plan for like the adoption. Or the college tuition. No, actually, no, I'm allowed for my starting point to be, you can't murder babies, right? I mean, come on. Yes. Like, what do we, and you know, the other thing which I did want to say is thatis i think you shouldn't hate israel

there's lots of great israelis i know some yes there are lots of really really great people there um and um and their government's just done a lot of messed up stuff but like so is ours and so have lots of governments around the world probably all of them um probably a direct correlation to how much power they have and how much evil stuff they can do. Exactly. But, you know, I do think it's a little bit of a cop-out for some people who I like very much. You know, like I like Matt Walsh. I've never met him, but I think his documentaries are great.

I think he's been an important voice in the national conversation, like a very important voice. I like Tim Pool very much. I've done his shows lots of times. I've met him lots of times. I think he's a great guy. But there are these guys who will basically say, like, I'm a non-interventionist. I only care about America.

I don't care about these other countries. So I don't care. I don't have an opinion on it. And it just seems to me like that's a cop-out. It's kind of like in 2006 saying, you don't have an opinion on Iraq. I don't care about Iraq. I only care about America. It's like, well, we're in Iraq right now. Well, I agree with that.

That's right. And that's why I felt from the beginning kind of like Shanghai'd into this. I don't care on the level that I just want to focus on my own country, but if we're deeply involved in it, then I have an obligation to care if it's my job to pay attention to what our country's doing, which it is. Right. Well, listen, I have an obligation to care if it's my job to pay attention to what our country's doing, which it is. Right. Well, listen, I have no argument to anybody who goes, I'm just not going to pay attention to politics. My best friend in the world is Luis J. Gomez, who came on your show. What a good dude.

And he's the best. And literally, and this is, he is being completely sincere. When you asked him on your show, you go like, so what are your politics? And he goes, politics is gay. And that's literally his only answer. And I have in all of my years i'm literally i'm his best friends i don't have a counter to that i go that is a pretty good point i married you a woman like that yeah yeah me too you know and like so it's like i have no argument against that if you but if you're in this world where we're talking about these things then you you don't get to just say, well, look,

taking this opinion, which is the obvious logical conclusion of my stated principles, but if I take them to their conclusion, that will cause me grief. Therefore, I'm going to say, I don't really care about that. Because look, here's the thing. If you do care about being America first, and you care about America not getting into another stupid catastrophic war in the Middle East, well, who's pushing us in that direction? And this is not a conspiracy theory. This is like totally out in the open, right? I mean, the longest serving prime minister in Israeli history is Benjamin Netanyahu, okay? Right? Benjamin Netanyahu came to the US.S. Congress in 2002 and testified as a regional expert that we should go overthrow Saddam Hussein in Iraq because democracy will sweep the region.

He then also said, in front of a congressional testimony, that we should overthrow Muammar Gaddafi in Libya and that we should overthrow the mullahs in Iran, okay? He's been advocating. He's been John McCain. He's been Dick Ch's been john mccain he's been dick cheney this whole time advocating that we fight this next war in this next one this next war they're right now what was it uh three four weeks ago they drew up war plans including us to go to war with iran it's only because donald trump who seems to be willing to help them ethnically cleanse the gaza strip but said that's a bridge too far for me. I'm not going to war here. And so thank God now we're in negotiations with the Iranians. But if you know this, then like for you to be a non-interventionist America first,

it has to at least come with, and hey, we should cut Israel off and we should not listen to Benjamin Netanyahu. Like, I'm sorry, that's just totally reasonable. Or Keir Starmer or any of them. That's right. So, okay. Just take the position, which is the obvious one. We should stop funding what Israel is doing. We should stop propping them up. It's been quite a while. The country was created in 1948. It is 2025.

You can either go with this alone or you can't. Come on. And those are fair terms, by the way. I mean, those are the terms that the rest of us live our lives on. Yeah, that's right. I mean, you make budget decisions in your home on the basis of what you can afford. Yeah. And there's some things you don't do, you know. You know, all of us mere mortals have those constrictions on our behavior. Like, they're the things I want to do and they're the things that I think I'm capable of doing. Yeah. There's a big difference. And if I was sitting

here and giving like these bravado you know infused speeches about all of the things that i can do but really it relied on me borrowing the money from you in order to do it you'd be like hey maybe stop giving this speech maybe maybe benjamin netanyahu should stop going to the un and going there's nowhere that israel can't touch actually there's lots of places israel can't touch i know there's nowhere the u.s can't touch i Actually, there's lots of places Israel can't touch. Oh, I know. There's nowhere the U.S. can't touch. I know. I just think it's getting too out in the open. And I do, I mean, I guess I fret too much in general, but I do worry now that it's like super obvious what's going on that things will just devolve into like somewhere very ugly. Well, that's why if you have any sense about you and you don't want to see

things devolve into something ugly, that's why you want to make sure we don't get into another war right now. Totally agree. It's unbelievable. It's, it's so, it's remarkable. I'll tell you this, right. And I, I'm somebody who has really, you know, been focused on this stuff for a long time. I do a show four days a week, and I'm always reading about this stuff, and I've done all the background reading. I know a lot about the neoconservatives like i'm not it's not that i don't understand how evil what they believe is i was really surprised that the ukraine thing the nazis in ukraine didn't mess with them at all i was shocked i was really surprised you know i know why they support all the wars they have supported i thought that for the neoconservatives, real deal, not even neo-Nazis, Nazis, like the grandsons of the Nazis who perpetrated the Holocaust was a line to me that I was like, oh, wow, they'll really go that far. But I'll tell you, I am blown away by the fact that anybody who is out there shrieking about the rise in anti-Semitism is not wise enough to go, we cannot fight a war with Iran right now. Because if we get into a war right now, that's clearly on

Israel's behalf after 25 years of terror wars, which were pretty clearly, at least partially on it. You know, I'm not going to go quite as far as like Jeffrey Sachs, although I get, you know, he's an expert and I'm not, so I guess he's right and I'm not. But, you know, I wouldn't quite say that, you know, we outsourced our foreign policy to israel like i you know there's a lot of truth to that statement was it was it meersheimer or sax who said i view benjamin netanyahu as the worst u.s president of the 21st century it's pretty hilarious and there's there's a lot of truth to that but it's not like 100 it's like okay but look it's obviously as i just said israel has been using its considerable influence to convince us to go to war in Iraq and Libya and Syria and all of these places. I think Yemen was

more for the Saudis. Afghanistan was our own thing. But those wars, particularly Israel, was really on board with. And if we were to go get into a war with Iran right now, which will be a much bigger disaster than any of the previous terror wars, there's really no argument about that. Iran is just not a pushover like these other countries. Like at all. Yeah, that's right. They can take out a lot of our guys. And then what do we do after that?

Well, they can also destroy Israel with conventional weapons. Yeah, there's a lot that they can do. But if we actually go to this war on behalf of Israel, I mean, what do you think that does to the level of anti-Semitism? Now, by the way, that's not the number one reason not to do it. That's like the number six reason not to do it. But for these people who are so concerned, they're so concerned about the existential threat to Israel. Well, here's the thing, right? Hamas, while they did pull off October 7th, which was by far the biggest attack Hamas has ever pulled off, Hamas was never an existential threat to Israel. But this actually is. I agree.

What they're doing right now in some sick, self-fulfilling, you know, prophecy, this actually is creating like an existential threat to that. I completely agree. If I live there, and I think enough of Jerusalem that I would like to live in Jerusalem, I think it's the most incredible city in the world. I truly love it. But I would leave because I think there, and I said this to an Israeli friend of mine recently, like I'm a little bit concerned. Not that it's my job to be concerned for your country.

Lots of other people have that taken care of, but just as a bystander, it's like, whoa, this is not good. And I didn't, you know, he had no sense of what I was talking about. But I, yeah, no, I think the one area where I agree with Mark Levin is that Israel is really in danger. And I think it's people like Mark Levin who are putting Israel in danger, in my view. Yeah, I think that's right. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that way.

No, I think that's right. I think just like I was saying, Douglas Murray, it's actually like, no, you're creating fertile ground for anti-Semitism by telling me I'm not allowed to criticize a guy with a Jewish last name. In the same sense, this is- Saying that you claim some Jewish ancestry.

Yeah, I mean, come on. But that's so low. It's so low to debate like that. Yeah, it's really- You're the famous debater? Yeah, and like in an op-ed, after you lose a debate, or not even lose, after you refuse to debate like that. It's really... You're the famous debater? Yeah, and like in an op-ed, after you lose a debate, not even lose,

after you refuse to debate and kind of beclown yourself, and then you're writing an op-ed and you don't take on one argument I made, but you do attack whether I'm really Jew. By the way,

as he'll criticize the just asking questions people. Well, what the hell is that? What the hell is claiming? That's me, by the way. That's who they're talking about. Right, I know, I know. It's all so pathetic.

It's so funny. The first time I heard that, I was like, wait, are you actually mad that I asked a question? Isn't anyone who's trying to shut down questions, isn't that person by definition on the wrong side? Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny.

Like, what world are we living in? I've lived too long. I should have died 10 years ago. Well, you know what's so funny about it, too, is that there's, because there's all these different techniques for control, and one of them is just framing. Like, how you frame a conversation really,

like with the Israel thing, it's obvious, right? Like, look, I mean, however you feel about the conflict, the fact is that Israel has occupied Palestine since 1967. You know, okay, I know that, you know, no, we disengaged in 2005. No, you didn't. But like, whatever. I'm not even like, I've had this debate enough times. I'm just saying this is the fact is that Israel's occupied Palestine since 1967. That's the fact. And then the conversation, they go, does Israel have a right to defend itself? And you're like, well, that's a hell of a way to start. You know, like you're the ones doing the occupying and you want to start every debate

with whether you have a right to defend yourself. Okay. But with all these things, there's kind of, you know, like this is what was interesting to me about the conversation with you and Brett Weinstein about the, you know, about God versus atheism and all this stuff is that like, so people, it's very easy to have the framing

of going like, oh, you're telling me you believe there's an invisible man up in the sky who created all things. That's pretty goofy, right? It's like, yeah, if you just frame it like that, sure, it's pretty goofy. I'm sorry, what's your belief? You believe everything used to fit on the top of a pin and then it exploded into everything. Everything came from nothing and then exploded into, this is just as ridiculous as anything anyone's ever believed. So like, as soon as you look at both sides and apply the same standard to both,

and you know, there's been a, one thing is a very interesting dynamic to me. I've seen this a lot when people will try to attack you, where what they'll do is they'll pull like kind of the five things you've said that seem like almost the goofiest of all the things. Well, he said this

thing about like a demon attacking him okay he said this thing about that actually happened right right but sorry i didn't want to know but look but look even yes in itself but like okay that sounds like an outlandish claim like i'm not but then it's almost like they're trying to ignore the totality i see this a lot with bobby Kennedy. This has been one of the most interesting things about Bobby is that the people who attack him, they pick on the five, you know, goofiest things they can find that they think he said, you know, he blamed the Wi-Fi for this, or he said something about whatever the COVID targeting certain genetics and not other genetics. And it's like, look, even if I grant you there are these five claims, which I don't know if I,

you know, Bobby said some things that I'm like, I don't know if he's right about that or not. It seems kind of, but they're trying to remove the central thing that he said. Of course.

And the central, this is Trump in a nutshell too, right? The central thing that Bobby Kennedy said is that we spend more money than any other country on healthcare and we're the sickest. Exactly.

Now, until you can take on that, you're never going to win by just trying to knock out these other good, because at least he's talking about the major thing. And by the way, not only did he say that, none of you have ever mentioned that. I've watched every presidential campaign. It's never once come up. Well, and in fact, everything they do mention is a way to avoid mentioning. Exactly. But we had a whole debate in this country about health insurance and this never came up we had the obamacare debate and like and no one even ever mentioned i didn't know it until bobby came yeah on my show yeah me neither yeah no but i have to say the thing that i have learned really above all other things is the only way to assess a claim is on the basis of whether or not

it's true. Right. Right. Not on whether or not I want to hear it, on whether or not I've thought of it before, whether or not I'm shocked by the fact that you asked the question. The only thing that matters is, is it true? Now, can I know? Most of the time, no, I can't know. But I want my orientation, the way I approach each question to be the same every single time, which is, is that true? And the second I stop caring about whether it's true, then I'm acting on behalf of evil. Right. It's that simple. Right.

Right? Yeah, no, I completely agree. So when Bobby Kennedy's like, oh, COVID's, you know, targeted on the basis of genes, I was like, really? Is that true? Yeah. Well, I kind of felt, I felt the same way. And I think particularly what, I think it's very similar to talking about the 9-11 truth or stuff with Jesse Ventura is like what what ends up happening is that after you're kind

of red pilled about so much. Yes. The claims don't seem quite as outlandish. There's that. That's not saying that they're right. You know, like and I've you know, with with the 9-11 conspiracy stuff i've never been like completely sold i think there are a lot of people who jump to conclusions yes that are and like actually the evidence isn't nearly as strong as you think it is you're kind of yes you're doing

what everyone does where you start with the conclusion and then you work your way backward from there and there's a lot of that but at the same time it's like the people who go well our government would never you're like now that doesn't work anymore, dude. Sorry. So yeah, they totally would. They actually totally would. I'm not even saying they did in this case, but they totally would. Or it's so painful to re-examine the worldview I've built on what be a fake assumption that I'm not going to do it. I'm going to yell at you instead for challenging that worldview. That doesn't work either because it's already happened. You can only lose your virginity once. And and once you realize that the warren commission

really was a cover-up i mean it just was and on the base of evidence i've concluded that then it's like okay if if the u.s government will hide details about the murder of a democratically elected u.s president then there's really nothing yeah that they wouldn't do right and then if you and then the nixon one is a big one-two punch you know because you realize that like oh the guy who became the villain you know like the guy who was like supposed to be remembered as the most corrupt president was actually the most popular president ever who was totally set up was you know and you're like okay well then we're just not living in the country that so I came to that independently having known a lot of those people I know Bob Woodward personally and I I lived in that world for my whole life and um Nixon had the highest popular vote

percentage of any president in American history I didn't in 72 I just didn't even know that and when I found that Bob Woodward was a naval intelligence officer detailed to the Nixon White House and then the next year gets the biggest story in journalism history handed to him. And how old was he?

30, 28, something like that. That happens a lot. That's totally, that's totally normal. And Deep Throat was the deputy director of the FBI

and the guy they installed as president was on the Warren Commission? Yeah. Yeah. I never liked Gerald Ford because of the FBI and the guy they installed as president was on the Warren Commission? Yeah. Yeah. I never liked Gerald Ford because of the withdrawal from Saigon on April 30th, 1975. I just thought that was like, everything about that was so ugly. But anyway, whatever.

Yes, I agree. So it's not enough to say I'm not allowed to think something. Right. allowed to think something right or that or or once you but once you recognize those things it's just impossible it's impossible to reconstruct the image of america that you once had you're like oh that's not at all what and that doesn't make you an anti-american bigot no any more than saying like criticizing a government does not make you a bad person no this is it's uh it's this is um what's it it's frederick bastiat stuff like this was already figured out a long time ago uh society and the government are not interchangeable things they are different you know criticizing joe biden

is not criticizing america i'm not criticizing the hills and the lakes i'm criticizing this one senile criminal or my neighbors or my relatives. Right, right. People I love. There's so many of them. So, last question. You made reference to the Brett Weinstein conversation we had last week about creationism versus Darwinism, et cetera, et cetera, the existence of God. Do you find in your life, this is a quiz I give a lot of people, more people you know personally talking about God than you did, say, 10 years ago. Yes. And I am that person. I mean, I was an atheist 10 years ago. What happened? I had my daughter. Yeah. That's, you know, as I found God the day my wife

delivered our first child, which is a fairly common experience. Uh, I know other people who have had the same thing were atheists until that moment. And, um. What, what can, what changed in you? So, all right. So it was, uh, basically, so I met my, so, you know, it's a fairly normal story, but I met my wife and we got engaged and then, um, we got married. Um, so my wife's like the most amazing chick. She's just great. And I know this is,

it's always a thing to say. It's like my wife's better than your wife type thing, but everybody who knows my wife, I don't mean you, I've never met your wife, but she is better. And I'm just kidding. I don't hear people compliment their spouses enough, actually. I don't think everyone always says that. I wish people said that more often. Well, I do. You know, it's not me. She's really just the best. Everyone who knows her would agree. I mean, like, it's just like, she's like the most amazing woman. She's just gorgeous.

And she's really super smart. And she's really sweet and kind. And she's just like, she puts everyone above herself. She's like, I really hit the lottery with her. And I was never, you know, I was like habitually single. I was never a relationship guy. And I never really wanted to get married. I kind of always had this view of like, you know, women are trying to change you or trying

to control you. Every girl that I ever dated always wanted a relationship. And then they always wanted me to not do this or not do that. And my wife was just, she just had my back. She just always like wanted to make my life better. And she did. And I just, I fell in love with her. And I was like, I'm gonna spend the rest of my life with this woman. And so then we, when she got pregnant, I was just very excited. It was like, you know, I just got married, got a baby on the way. I was just like, this is gonna

be, this is the best. Like, I'm really excited to do this. And I was right. It was the best thing I've ever done. And so the day that was, well, she was over her due date. So then they scheduled to come in to induce pregnancy because they don't let you go too long these days, which I guess is, maybe they're right about that. I don't know. But anyway, so we go to the hospital. They get the Pitocin out. Yes, that's right. So we're at Lenox Hill Hospital in the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And by the way, I should add, just leading into this story, I had been like a militant atheist when I was younger. I had started to open up my mind a little bit to being like, I was seeing some of the holes in the atheist arguments, but I still was not like a believer in God. And so we were at Lenox Hill Hospital and this is how, this was the

first one. This is how it started was the anesthesiologist came in to give my wife an epidural and at Lenox Hill, or at least this guy, they asked me to leave the room. They said they ask the fathers to leave the room when they do it you know because they're putting a spinal thing in and you have to be very very precise yeah right so like and and they don't want i guess they don't want you there to react because then she might react exactly right and so they don't want to so i go out and she can't see what's right right she can't see but she could see you seeing and so they want people with a straight poker face who have seen this a lot of times and are not watching it happen to their wife and baby, you know,

so it's a reasonable ask. But so I go, I go out and I'm in the, the hallway in the maternity ward at Lenox Hill hospital. And I'm just, and it just hit me. It was like, for the first time, I guess I had not really thought about this. I was just so excited to get my family started, but for the first time it hit me that that something could go wrong and that I could leave here alone. Something could go wrong that I could lose the baby. I could lose my wife and it's totally out of my control. And as this started hitting me, I started really getting emotional. And it's like, I'm out there and I'm crying in the hallway of this maternity ward. And immediately I just started talking to God. Um, and I just started, uh, not just talking to God, but like negotiating

with God. And I was just like, you know, like, like, dear Lord, if you, if you make sure that they're okay, I'm going to do like, I'm going to be the best husband and the best father. And I will do this. And you know, like all the different things in your life. And you've ever prayed before? No, never once in my life. And it all, you know, like all the things that you know, you're supposed to be doing that you're not doing that well. You know, like I was like, okay, I'll clean this up. You know, I'll call my mom more often. I'll do this thing. I'll do it. And so anyway, so I just started like praying to God and not just praying, but like negotiating. So anyway, everything was fine with that but my wife this was the first

of many times she had a very there were a bunch of complications in the pregnancy everyone came out okay thank god um but so i ended up talking to god a lot that day and then just like as the days went on it's so interesting it's organic well that's right time of not believing and then yes just start and so this is almost like what intellectually, you know, converted me later was I was like, hey, what the hell was that? I mean, I can't look back and just ignore that. And there was one, you know, like, again, I'm almost a little uncomfortable talking about these things because I like talking about things where I have like a real tight argument that I can prove is irrefutable. No, this is a more profound argument, actually. But it was something where I was like, look, so in the moment when it was really all on the line and out of my control, I wasn't thinking maybe God exists. I knew for a 100% certainty, unlike

nothing I've ever known in my life, that not only did I know that God existed, but I knew what he wanted from me. Like, I knew what my negotiating power in this was, is that I could, you know what I'm saying? Like I could promise I'll be a good person. I'll do. So not only did I know God existed, I knew that God wanted me to be a good person. And there was, and look, this is something that people who have found God know and people who don't believe in God maybe will not accept, but there is something to when you open yourself up like that to God, like you find out that he's real. And it's not like he speaks to you or he hallucinates. I don't like see a fiery bush and the words of God started talking, but like he fills you. Like you, when you

open yourself like that to it, you get filled by it. And there's no, there's no more debate in your mind over whether that's a real phenomenon or not. You're like, and any more than like, if I were to leave here and someone would be like, do you believe in Tucker Carlson? And like, I'd be like, no, I know for certain, like, I know for a certainty that Tucker Carlson exists. I was just with him. It's like that. And so it was, and it's never, it's, it changed my life. And ever since I'm, I regularly pray to God. It's like that. And so it changed my life. And ever since, I regularly pray to God. It's something I'm conscious of every single day. No way. Every day. Every day. And always, I don't even pray exactly. I don't ask for things ever. I ask for one thing ever from God,

which is that my wife and my kids are healthy and safe. It's the only thing I ever pray for. I don't ask for anything. The only other thing that I do is I express gratitude. Like I just say, thank you for everything I have. So that's the extent of it. But I think that I cannot overstate how much I think that's made me a better person. Yeah, it's very, very good

for you to constantly remind yourself how lucky you are that you have all the things that you have. It's very easy to get away from that. And that's where you ruin your inner happiness, your inner joy, is if you start taking the things you have for granted. Because once you, like, you know, once you, when you think you could lose everything you already have and then you don't, that's when you really appreciate it. You really appreciate how lucky we all are. Well, not to be too blunt or too personal, but you're on the cusp of change in your life on the basis of what's happened in the last month in your life. I've just seen this story so many times. Yeah. So to be vulgar, your income in this year will be higher than last year. I'm just telling you that because you're way more famous and you're also on the right side of history, I think. Yeah, I hope so.

And certainly on the right side of popular opinion. So like that, do you think, I mean, the danger in life is getting what you want and finding yourself unhappier. Are you worried about that? No, I'm really not. And I do just think that it's because, again, if this was happening to me at 25 or at 30, I would be very concerned about that danger. Literally like what I just told you

is kind of already happened in my life. I know who I am as a person. I kind of know what money actually means. Like there's lots of nice things. I'm not downplaying money. It's very important, particularly in my position. It's very important for me to be able to protect my wife and kids that we have some money, you know what I mean?

So that I can do that. But no, I'm not. I'm really not worried about that at this point. I think I've kind of like my wife herself is a very grounding force for me. She's the person whose approval I seek. Yes. She's the person whose opinion I really care about. And she keeps me very grounded.

Also, just as you know, having these little kids just keeps you grounded because they just don't care at all. Like literally at all. My six-year-old, the other day, we were out to dinner. And so we're out to dinner. We're sitting down, my wife, my six-year-old girl, and my three my three year old boy. And the owner of the restaurant was like a fan of mine. So he comes over to the table. He goes, oh, thank you guys so much for coming. I just wanted to shake your hand. I really appreciate everything you're doing. And I was like, oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. So he leaves. And then my daughter, my six year old, who's kind of 17,

but she's six. She turns over to me and she goes, why did he come over and say hi to you, dad? Cause you're famous. And then just turned right back to her menu. I mean, she could not have just undercut me more than that. I was like, yeah, I guess I'm not really that cool. All right. But that stuff helps. It's the best.

It's the best. I'm really lucky that I didn't have this moment 15 years ago that I had it now. So I think I'll be good. But then, you know, you cut back to me in a year. I come back here, I got like the shades on or something. It's totally ruined me. Pellegrino, not Perrier!

Dave, it's wonderful to see you. No matter how many times you've been here, I hope you'll return. I hope to bean again. And can I just say, by the way, just the last thing I'll say, and then, uh, we could end, but I will say that, you know, a big part of like the reason why I'm able to do what I do and be kind of protected because I'm not like, I'm not vulnerable. At least I don't think, I hope I don't live to eat

these words, but I don't think I'm going to be ruined or canceled or anything like that. And a big part of it is that Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson have my back. And you kind of can't really cancel someone in today's world as long as those guys have your back. And so, no, but I'm saying you're providing a lot of cover for people to be able to tell the truth and know that like, oh, you're not going to be able to like shut this person out of the conversation for the crime of telling the truth. Well, the money thing is important to that extent.

Money does not make you happy, but being dependent on other people's money can make you enslaved. And not having debt, not having investors. We don't have debt or investors. That makes a huge difference in my life. But you also have actual skills so you can just go do shows yeah the rest of your life do you know what i mean and i'm quite happy to do that that's what i'm saying so actually you were talking about matt walsh who i really do like and i and i thought for you know to the extent that you know he said what he said kind of impressive considering he works

the daily wire he still works the daily wire however and i know i'm not mocking him at all i worked at fox news for, you know, 15 years. And you do have, like, in the back of your mind, like, oh, can I say that? Or, you know, you self-censor even when you're not aware that you do. But if you're truly independent, then you can be independent. Yeah. Which is the best. The best.

It's really just so great. Well, I think you're funny, even if Douglas doesn't. Dave, thank you. Thank you, Tucker. We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people. While you're here, do us a

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