The Tucker Carlson Show - Ex-CIA Agent Speaks Out: JFK, 9-11, UAPs, MLK, MKUltra & Everything Trump Is Hiding

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

The one federal agency no one has even tried to reform is also the most powerful: CIA. Jim Erdman just resigned after a long career as an operations officer. He says the agency is completely out of control and dangerous.  (00:00) The CIA's Obstruction of Justice (30:59) Media Corruption and the Risks of Being a Whistleblower (47:17) Is the Head of the CIA Compromised? Why Hasn't He Pursued Reform? (51:56) What's Stopping the Government From Releasing the JFK and 9-11 Files? (59:55) What Really Happened With Building 7? Jim Erdman is the co-founder of Feds for Freedom (F4F), a 501c(3) dedicated to health freedom and constitutional governance. F4F is suing the CIA for treating CIA employees like spies when they refused the COVID vaccine. He has previous military experience as a non-commissioned officer at the 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, as well as Echo Company 1/162, an Oregon National Guard. He worked as a Senior bioinformatics and biometrics consultant in the private sector prior to joining the Department of State and CIA. He served in the Middle East, South and East Asia, and Africa and just finished a one-year joint duty assignment at the Office of Director National Intelligence in the Director’s Initiatives Group (DIG). He was responsible for the DIG’s investigations into COVID origins, Havana Syndrome, and Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP). He speaks Mandarin and Arabic and has earned the Director of National Intelligence Award and CIA’s Intelligence Medal of Merit. He retired from the CIA on 30 June 2026. Check out fedsforfreedom.org to find out more. Find Erdman on X: https://x.com/jerdman2005?s=21 Paid partnerships with: American Financing: NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org. APR for rates in the 5s start at 6.327% for well qualified borrowers. Call 800-685-5696 for details about credit costs and terms. Visit http://www.AmericanFinancing.net/Tucker. Dose: Daily supplements for the systems that support you. Use code TUCKER for 35% at https://dosedaily.co/tucker  Vulnerable People Project: Stand with Christians in the land where Christianity began, go to SaveWestBankChristians.com Ethos: Protect your family with life insurance from Ethos. Get up to $3 million in coverage in as little as 10 minutes at https://ethos.com/TUCKER Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Thanks a lot for doing this. How long were you at CIA? I joined the CIA in 2013. I was in the State Department before that, private sector. I served a Second Ranger Battalion, State Department, CIA. When did you leave CIA? I retired on 30 June, so real recently. Month ago?

Yep. Yep. Last year, you became a whistleblower. It was before last year, but yes. I think it started long before. last year and had to do with vaccine mandates, which is a separate topic from COVID origins, but yes. You first came into my attention anyway,

and thank you for fighting vaccine mandates, one of those countries ever done. But COVID origins, you went very public, you testified in the Congress. Why did you decide to do that? Well, there's a subpoena that helps make a decision process. Okay. So, no, but in all honesty, I can't,

forward and I had done a transcribed interview for six hours and 40 minutes behind closed doors with the Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee. When it looked like that the CIA was obstructing our investigation, when it looked like every obstacle was being put in place, when the subpoena came, I was, frankly, I was happy to go. I was happy to speak publicly. But then you become, I mean, you're in a different category once you do, you're in a different category once you do, that, I think. That's a big decision, isn't it? It is.

It is. You know, I hate to say it, I had some practice with the COVID vaccine mandates. And frankly, you know, maybe we'll be touching on this earlier. But that story that came out publicly on May 13th in front of Senator Rand Paul's committee, I had passed that story to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in April of 2020. I had also given it to the home, to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, two oversight bodies in 2023. And the first time I came and spoke to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence

on COVID origins was actually in November of 2021. Now, the story was a little different then. But I came forward multiple times trying to let them know that we're being lied to. So those two committees, you pronounce their, I mean, spelled out their formal names, but just the House and Senate and Intel committees, the oversight committees. This is the legislative branch's oversight of the most powerful, arguably the most powerful agencies in the government,

which have very little civilian control, particularly CIA. I think there are only, what, three appointees at CIA? I believe three appointees, which is, in my opinion, not enough. Oh, it's totally crazy, because it means whoever's elected by the public doesn't have any control over this agency, which I think is proven true. But anyway, the control is supposed to come from the Congress in the form of these two committees. So when you tell them something really rotten is happening in CIA where you work, you expect they're going to do something about it. I did.

I think COVID opened my eyes. I was naive. I was an operations officer. So I didn't, I spent most of my time out in the field. Collecting intelligence, recruiting spies. That was my job. I was not an analyst. I was not collecting other people's intelligence

and turning it into finished intelligence. And I was a bit naive about the process. You're doing the traditional work. When people hear the term CIA, they think of what you are doing for a living. Yes. Which is not what most people there do. Correct, correct.

You know, the director of operations does the conducts the operations for the agency. We collect the intelligence. And this is why this whole... Like living in foreign countries? Correct. You know, I was gifted many things from the agency. I was gifted

Mandarin language training, Arabic language training. I probably could use some brush up on Arabic, but my Mandarin's still pretty good. You know, and they give us a lot of authority to live and work overseas. I love the job. I love the job. And despite everything

that's happened, I actually still think if you're a motivated critical thinker, you should try and get into the director of operations. It is fun, job. It's a good job. I tried to get in for that exact reason. Probably never should have admitted that because I've been accused of being a tool to CIA ever since, which I'm not. I think the centerville

will make it clear I'm not. But I just, for that reason, I thought it sounded like a very interesting job. It's great. You don't think about the politics. There's no politics in the field. It's about it's such a small group of people that you get to come back and talk to about what you're doing. So if you're in the office, you come back and you're like, hey, I collected this intelligence. I recruited this by I did this operational act. The only people who can cheer you on are this is that small fraternity of people. And so it's a special. It was a blessing and a gift.

Everything good in my life was touched by working at the CIA, which is why COVID woke me up to sort of a mess. I mean, we're supposed to be and people laugh when I see. So you're not living in McLean, Virginia, at headquarters near our headquarters. You're like abroad, right? For a lot of this time. Oh, most of my career. Yeah, it was abroad.

was abroad. And I loved it. I finally came back to headquarters in 2019, right before COVID had. And being a CIA case officer, or even any intelligence officer, your job and people are going to laugh, especially when you say CIA,

our job is truth. So we go out, we go into this sea of misinformation, lies, different types of modemps, and we're supposed to pull out that little tiny nugget of truth, write it up and present it to policymakers so that they can make wise decisions. In the most altruistic way, that is what we're supposed to do.

And what COVID revealed was most of us don't. Most of the agency, they lost their sense of discernment. They gave up on taking a hard look at what was happening all around them. And I could not believe, I mean, I was running. work on financial intelligence against strategic rivals. And I had an office. I was running two big branches. And I had like seven people who'd come to my office every day and like,

we're not crazy. We're not crazy. This masking, this thing where they want to test us all the time, like this shot, we're not crazy. This doesn't seem right. And that was, that's what started me down the road. There was a few other things before that. It was a few other things before that that opened my eyes.

But I'm also a slow learner. I mean, I spent some time in the Middle East looking at dumpster fires saying, well, you know, I know we didn't actually get this done, but thank God we're here for democracy. So, I mean, I own that. You believe that. I did. I did for a long time. I no longer. I think that we probably should take a good, hard look at the decisions we're making on foreign policy.

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It was a lab incident in Wuhan. And it spread from, it was already, the cat was already out of the bag. I think if I, you know, people look at my public testimony, I'm convinced that the intelligence community

could have made a pretty sound assessment by mid-2020, that there was a significant chance that this was some variety of lab incident that occurred that caused this pandemic. And a lab incident changes how we view public health, public health policy. So if it's a natural incident, I have a feeling, you know, if Americans, and I said this during the testimony, if Americans knew that the basis for the vaccines, for example,

came from a nucleotide sequence that was given to us by the Chinese government. And we just took it, put it into a computer model and said, well, here's our vaccine. And people were like, but didn't you just say it came from some lab in China and Wuhan? They probably would be a little more hesitant to put that in their body. I personally think any new technology is unwise to... That's confirmed. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah. We got, I think it was, I forget the exact, Act date, it was early January. The nucleotide sequence was sent from the Chinese CDC over to, I believe it was our CDC, but it was sent over to the health establishment here in the United States. We took that. And it was put into a computer modeling. I mean, my guess is there was probably a lot of previous work done on COVID. So, sorry, on coronavirus research. I should be precise on that. There's all sorts of coronaviruses that we've been looking at over the, over the years.

It was a famous outbreak, of course, in Asia. Mm-hmm. So do you believe, so you believe that the virus just escaped from the lab, the famous lab in Wuhan? Do you think it was an accident? I think that we need more data from the CIA to actually fill out what Director Gabbert was doing. But yes, I think that it escaped from a lab in Wuhan, and it spread everywhere. inadvertently. Inevertently, I think.

I think. There's no direct evidence right now that says, yes, they did it deliberately. That's quite a hedged answer. There's no direct evidence right now that they did it deliberately. So the possibility exists. Possibility exists because, I mean, I'd love to give you a direct answer. Right. But the CIA would have had to have given the information that was requested from Director Gabbard's

Directors' Initiatives Group. that probably could have cleared everything up. We, when I conduct an investigation, actually an intelligence operation, if I'm going after a target, first thing I do is put together a timeline. A timeline of events, known things about the target that we're investigating. If I don't have everything that goes in that timeline, I can't give you a full answer. Right. And, well, CIA simply refused to provide the information.

And it was obvious early in the outbreak that this was from the lab. I mean, there were Chinese researchers who said it and then subsequently disappeared. But people were saying this from February of 2020. And it always seemed likely to me. But the U.S. government from the very beginning went along with this pangolin lie. And then subsequent to that, even when it became obvious that it was a lie, we were describing continued the cover-up. Why?

Well, part of the reason, I mean, Fauci is part of that reason. And, you know, I'm going to be very blunt about it. And since I'm going to be blunt and also give my opinion, you know, when I was sitting in front of the Senate, I wanted to make sure I was very accurate in everything I said. I don't want to give some supposition, but I will give a little supposition here as well. Because, you know, I have a brain, I think.

You know, I've got synapses that fire off. And occasionally when I see data, I don't, you know, if it looked, yeah, quacks like a duck. Right. So I think Anthony Fauci was fully aware that the funding that had gone on for various types of dangerous research, dangerous gain of function research, have been going on for a very long time. Okay. Different viruses, different bacteria. And, you know, there are ICC. connections to, for good reasons as well, biodefense.

I see connections to research that goes on. But I think they understood that a house of cards was going to fall down if this got out too quickly that there was a distinct possibility that American know-how, American expertise, I mean, we really do. I mean, I take a look at some of the scientists that the IC relies on for, expert advice. These people are really, really impressive people. Okay. You know, they, they, uh, they receive funding to go do research. They're involved in health. They're involved in bio-defense. All of a sudden, you've got a virus that looks, boy, it's sure there's, there's a couple

ties that tie the financing over to Wuhan, China. He had to know. He had to know what that looks like at the end of the day. So instead, based on everything that's out there, he gets the proximal origins of SARS Cove 2 written with his buddies. That paper gets waved around the IC as the end-all be-all as the paper to prove that, yes, it's a zoonotic origin. And he had to know when he's pushing these type of experts, a variety of experts that he pushed towards the IC once in February of 2020 and again in June of 2021, he pushes those experts in. He wants to ensure that narrative

is pushed at the IC level. And unfortunately, I'm going back to the comment I made before, you know, some people just appeared to swallow like hook line and sinker. There was actually, I read an email where a very senior person, and I wish I could name names, but a very senior person, and basically wave that paper around and said,

well, we've got our answer. Somebody who was in a position to sort of influence, not sort of, in a position to influence how the IC looked at SARS-Cove 2. Why are they covering it up now? Fauci's gone, new administration. I think that there's an embarrassment piece, again. I think, you know, you don't want to be caught with your pants down. I think that...

You don't want to be caught? At all. Covering up from a global piece. pandemic that killed hundreds of thousands of people yeah so there's i think um i think see and hold on let me be very clear about who doesn't want to be caught with their pants down causing a global pandemic um very the senior people within um d n i's um the part of the dn i that's responsible for looking into wmd matters and bio weapons matters and the weapons and counter proliferation over at the CIA. There's very senior people over there that had a heavy hand in what happened.

And it's not the analyst, like the technical analysts that were pushing saying, hey, listen, guys, this looks like this is a lab leak. Their careers were destroyed for pushing it. This is the story that I really want to make sure it gets out. I want to correct the record. They were not bribed. There was a number of analysts inside the CIA. And they did every, everything in their power to include writing a little dissent email that went all the way up to the top of WCPMC, saying, hey, listen, guys, we're technical experts, and I'm paraphrasing, obviously. We have this much expertise, and it looks like a lab leak. Their careers were destroyed after that. They weren't no longer part of that establishment. And if there's ever... So the entire leadership of CIA swung behind this lie that it was from an animal? Yeah. And why are they still doing it? Well, because I, well, tell you what, when the CIA produces the documents that were requested to help finish the investigation, I think we'll have a better answer on why. But how can CIA get away with not producing those documents or documents from the Kennedy assassination 63 years ago, which they also haven't produced, as you know?

Who allows that to happen? Oh, that's a pack question. There's a few pieces to that. So senior managers allow it to happen inside the CIA. And oversight, to some extent, let's it, well, oversight has failed clearly over the years. I'm not criticizing, right now I just want to be clear. I think actually Rick Crawford is on it right now. I'm definitely criticizing it. He'd be the member of Congress who oversees the House in Tokyo.

Yes, yes. So historically, they've abdicated their role in oversight. Let me give you an example. I want to give you a very clear example. When I was a young officer, you know, not a young officer, but, you know, I had earned my stripes, done my work,

and I was going to do my first meeting with a liaison service. Now most of the time, it's like, good luck, buddy, yeah, have fun. I actually had a senior officer, pull me aside. He said, listen, here's how... The liaison would be a foreign intel. Foreign intel service.

So this is where you get declared to the foreign intel service. You're no longer hiding from everybody. And you're working together on goals that are you both care about hopefully and um he said listen this isn't going to go well here's how this is going to happen here's what i need you to do he did what rarely happens for cia ops officers he trained the junior officer on how to handle the meeting i was so grateful years later and i love the guy um years later he disagrees with me by the way on just about

everything of substance but he's a great officer and um he pulls up me aside, I had gotten a job where I was interacting with oversight on a very regular basis. My job was to ensure that the things that were coming from the CIA that were going over to oversight were truthful, honest. We were producing things that was valuable for them to actually do their job. So I had never really done that kind of work. I dealt with oversight before. He says, here's how oversight works. Take, for example, we are supposed to report. all of the organizations that have human rights abuses that we work with. I mean, the CIA works with bad people.

That happens. It's by statute. We're allowed to do that. But we have to report it. We have to make sure that they know. So we give them a list. And I don't know if it's quarterly or every other year or whatever it is, but there's a report that comes out.

And he said, if he was explained to me, let's say somebody on the other side of the table says, hey, this service here, I don't like this. I don't want you working with this service. So he says, how do you handle that? I'm like, I don't know, you tell me. He goes, you say, well, just tell us to stop. And the meaning is, we know that you can tell us to stop, but you've got to get everybody else to tell you to stop.

And if we keep doing it, you got to get everybody else to pull the purse strings. And that never happens. So, like, you should just tell us to stop doing it then. It's become a kabuki dance. in my opinion, a kabuki dance. I sat in an oversight meeting that was three years after a huge failure happened, and they're asking the people sitting on the other side, the other people are talking to the agency officers.

They're like, has anyone been held accountable for something that happened three years prior? And the agency lawyer leans in and says, we're holding the system accountable. So unless, just, how are we? you doing that? I don't, I don't, well, if they're holding the system accountable, they need some work because the system keeps chugging away. System's not a person, right?

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where does he fit into all this? Well, I think he's a chairleader for everything we do. He has no role in oversight. I think he's a complete cheerleader. And I'll give you a very good example. I provide you a couple documents here. After my hearing, Senator Rand Paul sent another subpoena over to the ODNI, saying we need all of this information. I'll leave it with you. We want it. Well, Director Gabbert leaves. Pulte takes over,

and Pulte gets a letter from Senator Tom Cotton's team saying, hey, listen, here's what you need to understand. Cissy maintains oversight responsibility. Cissy is a Senate Intelligence Committee. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. We maintain primacy on an oversight for, for these sort of matters. And so, hey, Pulte, make sure, make sure that you consult us before you decide to give anything over to them. Okay, and not only that,

I said that I had done a six-hour-and-40-minute transcribed interview in a skiff in March of this year for his gag. Republicans and Democrats were both there. Well, let me clarify that. The Democrat tried to leave, but I insisted that he stayed. Now, I finished that transcribed interview.

they won't give it back they won't give it back to his gag Sissy will not His Gack is the Sorry the Homeland Security Government Affairs Committee The one that Rand Paul's on and Ron Johnson's on

I think some of the Democrats for honor Federman and a few others wouldn't know they didn't show up to the hearing So you know Sissy's saying

you can't have your own transcribed interview Sissy's saying we are the ones who have primacy over oversight over the Intel community, but they're not doing oversight. And how do I know they're not doing oversight? I've already sort of mentioned it. I went to Sissy in April of 2024, and I told them a story about six of seven technical experts saying COVID origins, you know, COVID originated in a lab incident. And they did nothing with it in

2024. So of course Tom Cotton doesn't want somebody else digging into it because it probably just exposes the failure of their oversight. Tom Cotton is so clearly a tool of CIA. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, as far as I can tell, that guy, he's there to make sure that he protects the CIA. But that's the opposite of what the job entails. That is exactly the opposite, yes. Now, his wife worked at CIA as an analyst in Langley. I don't know, but I believe you. I do know. And that is correct. I've talked to her about it. And so I'm not blaming him. She's very nice. I'm not attacking his wife, just to be clear. but that's pretty close relationship for someone who's going to be in charge of oversight of that same agency. Yeah, it's sort of like Fauci having his wife in charge of bioethics.

That's an interesting little relationship. Right. So that's just, again, I'm not accusing Mrs. Cotton of anything. She's a nice person, and I think she's left CIA. But the point is, that's weird. And then Cotton's reflexive defense of CIA against everybody, including the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, is very, very striking, and his impulse always is to hide more from the public.

That isn't what we voted for. I'm very aware of that, and you have to, and of course he's a very weird guy. I don't know him. Let me say again, he's a very weird guy, and almost everybody I know on those committees, I know a bunch of members, I mean, Dan Crenshaw was on the House Intel Committee.

So it's like, what is going on here? It feels like the IC CIA probably taking the lead on this controls these people. How do they do that? You know, I hate to say this, but we've squandered a historic opportunity. And Director Radcliffe and Deputy Director Michael Ellis, I think when history looks back, they're going to say that they were the worst leadership team, the CIA could have gotten. Of course. And it's not because they're, it's because of what they're not doing.

They have an opportunity for reform, but they've kept all the same people that were involved in covering up COVID, covering up Havana syndrome. They're all sitting in senior positions. And why would Trump, so Radcliffe has been in contact with John Brennan, right? And I've heard that. Do you believe that's true? I believe that's true. Right. So Brennan is a sworn enemy of Trump.

So why would you ever in a million years and try. Trump has said a million times. I hate John Radcliffe, stripped him of his security clearance. Why would you put a guy he's in contact with in charge of CIA? Like, what the hell is that? I don't know. I don't know, but what I hear... Do you think that's weird? I think it's very weird. It's very weird.

It's very weird. And there's other data points that I think speak to this. John Radcliffe, take the Trump-Russia collusion documents that Director Gabbert released in, was it late July, 2025? So those documents were damning. I mean, it's treason what they were trying to do. It was like, and I read the unredacted documents. I read the documents. This is our story.

We're sticking to it. Okay, you can't unread that. And then go away thinking, boy, good thing we've got great leadership at the IC. So that's all real. The thing is, Director Radcliffe was Director D&I. He had possession of the documents. that were released by Director Gabbard when he was over at the DNI. Right.

He could have released them. He could have released them when he's at DNI. Maybe he was scared. I mean, I could. But Trump, that was, he was, he ran D&I in the, in the first term, first Trump term. So Trump knew this. Everyone knew that. That John Radcliffe is also, by the way, loyal to a foreign power, I would say.

And he's in touch with Trump's enemy. and he's doing nothing to help Trump on the issues of Trump claims he cares about most. And then the first thing Trump does when he gets elected is appoint that guy director of central intelligence? Like, what the hell are we looking at? Yeah, I can't get into President Trump's head on that one. But what I can do is...

Can you just affirm again my suspicion? This is like the weirdest thing that's ever happened? Yeah, this is dumb. It's flat out dumb. Like if you want to be followed, like he's proven. President Trump is. proven that there are people within the federal government that will go to great lengths to destroy people. Yes. If you want to continue to, him, especially him, if you want to continue

to be destroyed, this is exactly what you do. Exactly. So it's dumb. Well, dumb at best. It sounds like it's the nicest way to say. That's the nicest way to say. I don't know why any person would do that, especially with finally honed self-preservation instincts, which Trump has. Why would you do that? and I also noticed something else tell me if you have too that of all the appointees high level of cabinet secretaries big appointees this administration Rackcliffe has basically received no

scrutiny in the press at all yeah neither did Rubio for the most part sorry sorry I wanted to fair thank you but did you notice that of course I noticed it it's a CIA director you're one of those powerful people in the world it's a giant red flag

it's a giant red flag to me I'm sorry you got to have if you're You're coming into one of those positions. I want, it doesn't matter who's in charge, I expect controversy. I want an argument over it. I want to see people get mad about the person that's going. But to this day, most people have no idea who the Director of National Intelligence is. Right.

And he's treated like ahead of state when he travels abroad. He runs CIA. We don't know what their budget is. I mean, it's an incredibly powerful agency, as you know better than I. So, and this guy, no one says a word about him. So that tells me that the American media are at the very least beholden to, if not controlled by CIA. Like, where are they? Where's the New York Times on this?

Where's the Washington Post? Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the media because the media plays a huge role at this point in American freedom, our future. And like, take a look at the media blackout, even on, like, I'll personalize it here. on May 13th, you would have thought every news outlet would want to hear what was happening behind the scenes during COVID. Fox News was the only one that covered it. And that happens all the time. It tells me that the media is controlled. The media is controlled by the government.

This thing where we've got an independent media, it doesn't exist, okay? And that's a big problem for government oversight. It's a big problem because whistleblowers who go through the system. Sorry, I'm going to pivot just a little here, but whistleblowers are essential to holding the system accountable. To honest government. To honest government. So I can tell you, I've personally walked through the system and it's so broken that now when people come to me and say, should I be a whistleblower, I tell them no. And that's the honest.

I say, the only reason you should be a whistleblower is if you're prepared to lose everything. okay because you're not going to you're not going to get a gold star when you're done okay it's not going to make it good for you personally it's not going to be make it good for you professionally and if you say go through the iC system they continue to investigate themselves and find no wrongdoing if you go to the icig i went to the icig and i tried to get them to intelligence inspector general thank you i apologize no no it's all right the internal watchdog yeah the internal a watchdog. And Chris Fox, by the way, I think is another one I should mention specifically. I think he's got the spine to try and get something done to clean things up. And I said that in my testimony.

But let's say you go through the whole system and you realize, oh my gosh, the system is broken. What do I do now? Well, that last line of defense, the last line of defense for a free society is a free media. And let's say you want to, you're like, you know what, this is wrong. I have to do. do something and you say, I'm going to go to the media. Well, that is, that's Russian roulette. Okay. And by the way, let me be perfectly clear. I am not advocating that people with classified information go immediately to the media and just start spouten their mouth off. That is not what I'm saying. No, they should just dump it on the internet. That's what I think. Put it on the blockchain? Just want to be clear. Okay. I am advocating for that. And I do think that people with

relevant classified information should as close it to the public. They should. They should. But I don't blame any of them for not. The system is broken. Christians ought to be safe in the holy land of all places, but they are not. Keep in mind, these are the descendants of the first converts, the first people who followed Jesus, people whose families have worshipped in the land Jesus walked for centuries, for thousands of years, and these same people are now facing enormous pressure to leave, fleeing their homes amid war and anti-Christian terrorism. Untold numbers of innocence are lost and without hope fellow Christians. But how do you support them? There are groups out there who claim to support them whose real agenda is to move them out of their actual homeland. We think that's wrong. We think that's

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The whistleblower system is an oversight mechanism. And that's what, sorry, and that's what I love about Gabbard's release of information, for example. Take the Trump rush occlusion documents. She included whistleblower testimony. It's not just straight documents. It also provides a contextual, sort of real feel of, not sort of, a real feel of what was happening at the time, from a real person. And so, do you have any idea why this is the case, which is to say, do you have any clue how CIA influences the behavior of the Washington Post, the New York Times, CNN, NBC News, the Associated Press, et cetera?

My limited window, because I, like I said, I'm a ops officer. Up until recently, all I cared about was stealing secrets. Right, in some foreign country. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes, to be clear, not American secrets. I want to ask you about that in a minute, but... Okay. My limited window is there's clearly

some preferred outlets that they will go to. I mean, I see some of these things, and these are puff pieces. These are cheerleading pieces. You know, talking about how great things are,

you know, talking about all the things, all the reform that's, I've seen a few recently. The problem with CIA, I've long thought this, is it doesn't get enough money. And so Congress needs to appropriate more money to say that every piece is like that. No, right. If only they could, you know, they had full funding. Right. What? Right.

Which, I mean, which is a great point. You know, not only do they not get enough money. No. The funding piece is actually interesting that you mention it because it's also, sorry, this might be a non-sequitur, think it's important. Part of the reason we failed is the Patriot Act and 9-11. You know, I was part of the whole system post-9-11. I can tell you, I never had a time even during continuing resolutions where, like if I went to the boss and said, hey boss, I got this great operation going on and need more money, they always found money for me. And I think, I think, I think we started confused.

using good managers for good leaders. So after 9-11, Patriot Act opened up a bunch of authorities, a bunch of operations were opened up. And, you know, the good managers were the ones who could juggle a gazillion different things at once. You know, I wish I was one of those people. I was never good at juggling a gazillion things at once. You know, I stuck to sort of a handful of things I knew I could accomplish.

But the good managers, they could. And they were working in a time where there was a ton of money. We've always had money. We've always had money. And so those good managers who didn't really have to get tested about, hey, should we do this? Should we save this money for something else? Should we make this moral decision on blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They got confused as good leaders, so they matriculated upwards.

And they were never really, and this is a generalization, they were never really tested in terms of moral decisions or decisions that were weighty in terms of like, like, should we continue doing this operation or not? So, you know, and we had chances to be tested. How many people spoke up during the whole enhanced interrogation piece? How many people came forward and said, hey, last I checked, that's torture? Well, one did. One did, and he was destroyed, right? He went to prison.

He went to prison. Under the subsequent administration, which was the amazing part. That's crazy. So he came forward during Bush, but Obama got there, and John Brennan immediately saw that he was indicted. and sent to prison and wrecked his life. So all these managers who have continued to be moved up, they've never had to make hard moral decision.

COVID heads. And you've got people saying, hey, I've got religious rights. Hey, I've got bodily rights. Hey, this is executive overreach. And no one knew how to handle that. And it proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. The management, they're not leaders. The managers in the CIA are not trained

to handle conscientious dissent. and real moral decisions. For me, that was it. They failed a test of their humanity. And that opened my eyes. There's an open, no one asks this question very often, but where does CIA's funding come from? Well, comes from the Congress, in part,

but that's not the entirety of its funding, period. But the part that is appropriated is classified. so we don't know exactly what the budget is. How can you, and I'm pretty sure the president doesn't know, in fact, I'm pretty certain the president doesn't know. So, like, how is that civilian control of an agency if no one really knows how much money there is or even where it's coming from?

It's not. You know, and there's, you know, there are reasons why they want to hide budget. Oh, I understand. And, like, I really believe in sources and methods. We don't want to see sources dead. We don't want to see sensitive methods destroyed. But, you know, if the naming conventions for the various offices that the CIA are made so indistinct that outsiders can't understand what they do in that office,

well, that's meant to protect the type of operations. We're sources and methods. Of course. But there's a real question on the oversight piece, like how does oversight happen? if you can't go, what exactly does that office do right there? What does it do? It's got a weird name. Where's the money going?

Yeah. Why does it need that much money? And you also have to ask, like, is CIA doing anything that's so critical to the interest of the United States that you would give up any hope of managing it or having oversight over it? You would allow it to be its own country in the middle of your country. The answer is that shouldn't occur. Period. I mean, morally, ethically, no. Is it occurring?

I worry it is. Oh, I feel it's definitely occurring. There's no question about it. I mean, yeah. I mean, from my experience, it sure looks like it. Yeah, it sure does. And again, if we don't even really know there's a big debate, which I've listened to carefully,

about where this money is coming from, and again, it's not all coming from the Congress. So what? Follow the money. But how can you? If CIA is running businesses or engaged in business practices as an agency, which it is. It's like I get that this can all be justified.

If I were king for a day, if I were in charge, and I wanted to start the process, I totally get, it's become such a gargantuan problem. Where do you even start? Right. But if I wanted to like make immediate gains on that question, how do we, I would. So the director of CIA, the deputy director of CIA,

and it used to be the chief operating officer that changed names, they have special authorities to grant no bid contracts under national security auspices. I would come in and I would start auditing every single one of those contracts that were given out by the director and deputy director, particularly in that little window between administrations. Once you catch a little bit of wrongdoing, it makes a lot easier to justify, okay, now we're going to start doing the deep dive. Why don't we take a look at, you know, the other funding mechanisms that are in play for various types of intelligence work? I would definitely, I would definitely audit Incutel. 100%.

Incutal needs to have a full audit. Can you explain for people who don't know what Incutel is? Incutel is, you know, it's the venture capital arm that funds all sorts of stuff that... Venture capital arm of what? Of the CIA. Okay. I mean, I know the answer, right? I just want to make sure that everyone listening understands.

understands that CIA has its own, and I'm quoting you, venture capital arm. Yeah. So we thought that's something that happened on like Sandhill Road in, you know, Northern California, but no, CI has its own venture firm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's real reason to have an insight into things that are tech and things that are about it.

There's good reason to have it. But if you're going to do it, if you're going to do it, you better. you better be able to justify every penny. Well, and you have to have control over it by the public through its representatives. So what happened in Pakistan, as you know, I don't know if you've been posted in Pakistan, but like Pakistan did this with its military, and the next thing you know, the military runs Pakistan. And no matter who you vote for, the military still runs Pakistan.

So you don't want that because that's the opposite of democracy, right? I spent two years in Pakistan. Okay, then I didn't even know that. Yeah. Is that a fair assessment? Yeah, it's a fair assessment. I mean, how many businesses does the Pakistani military own? A lot. A lot.

A lot. Right. And they're the best fun institution in the country. It's really obvious when you drive around Pakistan. It's like all the mowed lawns are the military bases. Yep. Yeah. Well, having life insurance is one of those things that helps you sleep better at night.

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no no i do not and the american people don't want that what they want in my opinion is um we were told that we were going to get some i see reform and um we haven't seen one lick of it except Sorry, that's not true, except with Director Gabbard. She did exactly what President Trump said. I want you to downsize the DNI. I want you to pursue de-weaponization of intelligence. I want you to pursue COVID origins. I want you to pursue Havana Syndrome and election security.

She did all those things. She tried to pursue those things, and she got beat up for it. I want to get to that in some detail in just a second. But first, I just want to go back to John Ratcliffe, former congressman, who runs CIA. Why hasn't he pursued reform of CIA? That's a very tough question because

I'm not in his inner circle, but as far as I can tell is because he doesn't want to. He's perfectly happy to let the people that are running the agency who are, those people, those managers who matriculated upwards who were confused for good leaders, yeah, they're running the place.

I don't know why he's letting that happen. Everybody I know in that world says that he's just a pure mouthpiece from Assad. Everybody says that about John Reifcliffe. I don't know about that. I can't speak to that, but what I will say is he's not getting it done. He's not reforming anything. I mean, there's still, and I don't remember what they're called, and I'm not even sure I'm allowed to say what they were.

But, you know, right before the administration changed, the DA came up with three new ways to write products that only stay inside the CIA. They don't get propagated out. So what good is that? And so the CIA continues to create products that have no oversight and can be held on to, especially if they're writing things up that they want to wait. You're explaining what a product is. You're not talking about a new kind of toothpaste.

Right. Right. No. So, you know, analysts will write a paper, finished intelligence on some topic. And there's different types of papers. They've got different names. But there's a new type of. analytical product that they can write up now, which that is supposed to be shared with the community.

That's the whole point. You write something up, you share it with the community. No, they decided they're going to keep it inside the CIA and not propagate it outwards. If oversight wants to look at something, look at those papers that are being written that are meant to stay inside the CIA and not go anywhere. My gut tells me they're just going to hang on to them until they can make them go somewhere, maybe the next administration. Who knows? Right. I mean, you're describing the ability to create dossiers on people. Dossiers on all sorts of stuff. So here's the reform that I would institute if I had the power to do it.

The President of the United States asks for information that is held by one of his agencies that he oversees because he's one of only two elected officials in the entire executive branch of government. And the CIA does not produce that information. And then that's the point in which you call John Radcliffe and you say, listen, bitch, you've got 24 hours to do this or I'm having cash Patel have you arrested but but there's none of that it's like the president's proxies ask for information from CIA and they're like we can't find it yeah when everyone knows that's a lie election security here's a good one Kurt Olson is the guy but like would that work why couldn't

you do that you could in theory what do you mean theory the president this is the president's agency he was elected by the public no no no I agree CIA like I'm missing something sorry You are 100% right. Trump Street CIA like it's a foreign power that he has to negotiate with. I don't, I can't understand why. It's the craziest thing I've ever seen. It should work like that, but it's not. It's not working like that.

There are negotiating, like, frankly, Director Gabbard shouldn't have to negotiate with Director Radcliffe over some of this stuff. She had people in her team that have all the, intelligence background to handle the type of products that were coming on a CIA. Operational traffic, those sort of things, and had to negotiate. Everybody's got to negotiate. Why do we have to negotiate? Why would President Trump? Where's the president in this? The President issues an executive order January 23rd saying, I want all available documentation on these number of historical incidents, including the assassinations of the 60s, but not limited to those.

He doesn't get it. He does not. And, you know, I... So why doesn't Trump say? where, okay, it's been a month. I won it by this afternoon. Where is it? Or you're under arrest. I just don't, I don't, what is going on? I wish I knew. I wish I knew because we, we expected, we, we and I, you know, when I say we, I mean, the American public voted for the greatest disruptor in American history. He's not hard, is it? But he's not, for some reason, he's not being the greatest finisher, in my opinion. He's a colluder with the system. I don't. I don't get it. I don't understand because we really want to see him successful. So how hard is it to get, and I'll just get to pick the most benign of them all,

and that was Kennedy's murders because it's so old, right? But there's, it's not possible you're revealing sources and methods. Everyone's dead. Like, I don't really see the legitimate impediment to producing these documents after all these years and all these votes by the Congress to do it multiple executive orders, including this one. So they don't produce those documents, which they have. not. They have not. Why, why is it would be hard for Trump's just to say, time's up, I want them now? There is a sea of lawyers who cavets and say, here's, here's all the things that are, here's all the

reasons she could be sideways with the law. Here's all, Trump has full power to do all this, but he does, correct. He could just do it immediately. But for some reason, the bureaucrats, they all sit around cavetzing over all the legal ramifications, I think. And Tom Cotton, too. Tom Cotton, too. Does not want disclosure. He does not want disclosure. At this point, like, if we're serious about reform, we just got to lay it all out and let it, let it, like, if the documents that come out, these operational records come out, you know, and they show all sorts of wrongdoing that happened decades ago, maybe we can finally start correcting those mistakes.

that happened and improve the institutions. I physically handled the MK Ultra documents, okay? They were about, you know, this high in the office. Again, I was hired labor that day. I just needed to move the documents for somebody into another office. But those were the MK Ultra. I thumbed through them,

and there's no reason, there is absolutely no reason to not just put that out, okay? I think those documents that are JFK, which there was no during daylight raid or anything like that. That was incorrect. D&I was locked out of getting those access to those documents. And some of those documents, they're going to use bureaucratic doublespeak

to talk about why D&I doesn't need certain documents, why some of these documents probably need to stay, you know, behind closed doors. It's all bullpucky. It's too old, it's too long ago. it has to be released. There's an executive order with the force of law

requiring the release of these documents with no caveats in it. Yeah. So they're breaking the law by holding these. You could say the same thing with the COVID Act of 2023. That was unanimously passed. I said we want all of it disclosed. Was it?

No. No, there's thousands of documents that are still sitting there and I pray that Pulte or whoever else comes after them or even Ratcliffe, I don't care who does it. Declassify them. There's thousands of documents. Well, that's, of course, not going to happen. And I'm sure Tom Cotton would jump up and prevent it.

Yeah, and it's too bad because the people who put this administration in office is going to look at that. And they're going to, they're not going to be happy. Well, it's not a democracy if you don't know what your government's doing. Yeah. And what about 9-11? Was there ever an effort to, because as you, as you. just said yourself, it was the Patriot Act in the wake of 9-11 that changed the whole structure, changed the country forever. There's never been a meaningful push to declassified after 25 years.

You know, I can't, there was no push for 9-11 during my time at the dig to declassify anything as far as the time. I'm very aware of that. I wonder why. I have my theories. I mean, What are your theories? That there's something that's, you know, all these people who are out there that say, you know, the government can't keep a secret. And, you know, you're a cuck. If you think that, you know, there's a possibility there was something, some underhanded thing happening behind the curtain,

I can tell you we can keep a secret. I know. I've kept secrets. I am keeping secrets, okay? morally, ethically, I'm keeping secrets. And if somebody says that a group of people can't keep a secret about 9-11, that's not true. Okay? I have questions about Building 7.

That for me was a wake-up call. That's what the CIA office was. Yeah. And so I have a real question about Building 7. It does not make sense. And this is, and again, I used to be a normal CIA officer. you know. That's such a great sentence.

I used to be a normal CIA officer. It's true. Assuming that's a category. You know, it's a category. I'm just joking. I know it's a category. You know, I, and I still, I still love the agency. But there's something,

there's something off with, with Building 7 and. Something off? Yeah, like how did it fall down? Why was it in? announced on television before it fell down. Yeah, those are real questions that need real answers. So because the CIA, there was a CIA office in that building, they admitted it. I didn't misremember that.

No, you didn't. Did anyone ever talk about this? Well, you mean. At CIA. At CIA, over the course of my career, what happened? Yeah, like what happened to our office in Building 7? The building that no plane hit, but somehow it fell down. So when I say I used to be a normal CIA officer, for most of my career, no one I knew talked about that.

Right. and it wasn't until COVID that I started running into people, um, whatever this means, it wasn't until COVID that I started running into people that started asking those questions. And I was listening to them going, first it,

I had a CIA employees. Yeah, CIA employees. I had a visceral reaction when I first heard that. I was like, what are you talking about? I did exactly that. What are you talking about? They can't, like that, that didn't happen. And as time has gone on,

I had the same reaction, by the way. You know, I'm a slow learner. Me too. I'm a slow learner. And, um, I'm a slow learner, but there's a lot of questions that need. So what were other CIA employees who had thought about this before you did or I did? What was their theory about how that building came down?

Well, put me on the spot here. It doesn't mean it's true and you're not endorsing it. I'm not endorsing it. I'm interested to know what actual CIA employees think about the destruction of the CIA office in Building 7. A lot of people had questions about, you know, the folks that were dancing on top of the building and several. The Israelis, the Mossad officers, yeah. So a lot of people had questions about that.

A lot of people had questions about why, was it, insurance policy, I believe? You did a whole segment. That's right, you did a whole segment on this. Yeah, we did a documentary. Yeah. There's an insurance policy that was taken out right beforehand, which is pretty fortuitous, pretty prescient. They've brought up a whole bunch of things. And from my perspective,

from my perspective, these are good questions that deserve answers. So was the feeling that that building was by someone brought down? Yeah, I mean, some have said that explicitly that I've spoken to. They said explicitly, yes. It sure looks like that thing was controlled explosion and fell in on itself. And these are, yeah, these are active CIA officers. I mean, it's pretty obvious. Yeah.

If you take, you know, if you filter out the propaganda, the screaming in your ears from Jake Tapper, shut up, conspiracy nut, and just ask like, well, how did that happen? You can't get an answer because obviously it was brought down with explosives. It sure looks like. Right. So, but who did that and why? And by the way, that building collapsed in exactly the same way that the first two towers collapsed.

So it does raise like a bigger question. If that was fake, well, what else is fake, if anything? I mean, we don't know. But anyway, so all of these questions, if you're a former normal person and your colleagues at CIA, presumably also these normal CIA officers you describe who I love they're great officers no of course they work hard totally kidding but chested freedom fighters yeah I've and I've known a lot of people like that in various federal agencies who are like good people not everyone's bad right it's true however if they're coming to the same conclusion then seems like 9-11 would be the number one thing you looked at

in the dig I would have liked to have taken a look at it I would have liked to have taken a look at It seems obvious to me that because unlike the MLK assassination, which is I'd love to know more about it. Clearly it was a conspiracy, I think. But like in the end, it didn't change the world in the way that 9-11 did. Maybe it's just too big to investigate. Maybe. Have you ever heard anybody say, hey, we should look, we should just declassify the 9-11 documents?

Well, yeah, some of the people in the dig said a couple times. But, I mean, we have to be direct. We were doing only what we were directed to do. What the EO told you to? EO told us to do. We're trying to be... Or to follow the law? Well, yeah.

Yeah, trying to follow the law, trying to make sure that we accomplished the mission that was put in front of us and get that done as quickly and as effectively as we could. And we found that, well, the deep state exists. I mean, I don't know what you want to call it. I love Mike Benz's description of it, the blob.

I think it's the most accurate description. I agree with that. because it's amorphous. Yeah. There's no meeting. It's everywhere. And it just rolls in. It fills space.

It fills the cracks. It pops up everywhere. It's miserable. So the dig was the director's initiatives group. Initiatives group. And that's the group within the office of the director of national intelligence. ODI and I run until recently by Tulsi Gabbard that was charged with producing these documents that Trump had called for in his executive. order. Is that all true?

Yeah. Yeah. So what were the, if you'll just jog by memory, the cases, the events that you were looking into? Well, a lot of them are listed in that Rand Paul subpoena. So if it's okay. Oh, of course.

So it was the JFK assassination? Oh, the declassification effort. Didn't they sort of lumped MLK, JFK, Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy. In that category, there was election security issues, There was January 6th.

There was COVID, Havana syndrome, UAPs, and a couple other issues. They tried to compartment out things so like everybody wasn't working on the same things. So there's some things that I wasn't. Those are all super interesting topics. So let's just go through them really quick and I'm going to ask you, do you learn anything new about the JFK assassination? So I have to admit, I'd never really followed it. So I was just hoping we'd just release it all. And I assumed there was a lot of people who were into it

and they would pull the documents and make those conclusions for me. So I don't have any revelations that I was following very closely. I was shocked to know that the CIA was running Oswald. Yeah, that's true. He defected, but that was all a scam. And the Russians were very paranoid about Lee Oswald. He was a Marine Corps, I think.

and he shows up in Russia and they're like, you're a secret agent, but he actually was. So I didn't know that. MLK, anything coming to mind? I wasn't involved, sorry. January 6th. I think your interview with Steve Baker covered quite a bit with that. And I think the only thing I'll,

I want to add to that is Steve Baker's provision of information to the dig, I think that was sort of the first step to the dig being shut down. And I've never seen a reaction quite like what I saw from the agency. You tell us what Baker did, just so we have context. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. So Steve Baker provided information based off gate analysis that indicated that a current CIA officer, former Capitol Police officer, may have been the person who placed the bombs, the routes,

inside the RNC and D&C on the evening of January 5th, early morning, whatever it was, and provided it to the DNI. Now, he provided it to the DNI because, and I didn't realize this too much later, you know, as we're doing these investigations, sometimes you just need to bring in an expert, and he had been following it for so long, somebody, and I'm not sure which part of the team did it, they asked him to, hey, would you like to help us with this? he deferred. He said, listen, I'll be glad to give you anything you need, but I don't actually formally want to be part of the investigatory work because he wants to be a journalist. He's actually a musician. He can find great. And so he provided that information, and a memo was typed up.

The memo went to the PDDNI, the principal deputy director of National Intelligence, Aaron Lucas. and it got scanned in and sent over to Michael Ellis. And that thing got shot. Number two at CIA. Number two at CIA. Shot all over the CIA. And next you know, people were losing their minds. When I say people were...

Because they were so excited to get to the bottom of this case. Right, right. Right. We finally figured it out. No, they were pretty upset. They're like, what are you doing? This is defamation. And, you know, people were pulled in front of other people.

Defamation in what way? Well, you know, they're saying, listen, this person who was named in this investigation, you know, she's not, that, that individual is not the person who did it and, you know, you could get yourself in a lot of trouble, you could get sued. How do they know that person didn't do it? They don't. They don't know that. And we know. They're a bunch of liars is what you're saying. That is definitely one way to say it, but yeah, I mean, they don't know that. And it's weird to me because the CIA's job is to take an information. Exactly. And, and are, by law, if they're,

there's a chance that there is some illegal activity that occurred, we have to inform the CIA that, hey, listen, there's an employee that might be, might be involved in this. Take it seriously. But you're saying that CIA did not respond coolly or analytically to this information from Steve Baker as provided by ODI and I. They did instead what? They decided they were going to investigate the dig. Okay. And I, like, for what purpose? The people who provided the information. Yeah, gave it to him. And, you know, to me, it's insanity. Were they upset about this information?

Sure seemed like it because you don't send somebody for, you don't call somebody up and say, we'd like you to show up at this facility for an interview. And that facility is for polygraphs, by the way, which is basically an interrogation tool. And say, hey, listen, come on by. I mean, there was a fellow sitting next to me. He asked me, you know, how do I deal with this? And I said, well, you tell them that you work for the DNI and that you would like them to send a full list of the questions

they'd like to talk about, maybe send it to your lawyer, and you make sure you CC everybody in the DNI front office on that email chain because you want them involved in fixing this. It was insane. The reaction we got from them was a visceral reaction. So if you, I mean, you were practicing tradecraft your career at CIA so you know that that kind of reaction suggests oh yeah not good not good i immediately assumed that there's wrongdoing and like right or wrong that's what i assume if you're going to react

like that well hold on a second what what are you protecting why are you of course and so and everybody i'm like i'm not a genius here you don't need to be a co to to have the exact same question so what I'll say about this was the CIA decided that that was the end of it and so they put up they made every obstacle they could to try and prevent us

from conducting our investigations and is simply refusing things, slow rolling things you know even even within the DNI's Office of General Counsel there are things that we want to push through there to make sure that we're street legal

somehow they managed to slow roll even the stuff we were trying to get over to for example senator rand paul's committee that's there was there's questions and follow-ups that sat with that group for months and but on the specific uh in the specific case of of january 6th so there are a couple things that jump out one that of all people in the world to be identified by a distinctive gait apparently is a product of a sports injury sounds like it baker says but whoever was in the figure in the picture at a weird a weird gate the woman Steve Baker says he thinks is that person has a sports injury she's a capital police officer but of all places to wind up working at CIA how did she wind up

right according to the court documents she had applied for a job prior to six months prior to January 6th I can't remember okay but but but I mean, it's possible to get a job over there. It's not easy to get hired by the CIA. What does she do there, do you know? She works in security. I don't know the specifics of her exact job. Is it possible that she provided security to the director?

I don't know. It is possible, I suppose. They pull people in if they're short. So they'll pull people in to, like, there's a special group of people that handle security for the director, deputy director, the coup, the coup. Well, the coups changed names, but like the director and deputy director over at the

coup, the chief operating officers. The coup against Mossadegh? Oh, I'm sorry. No. Just kidding. It was a little CIA joke. Yeah, yeah. You guys know coups. We know that. This is a different coup. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, yeah, I suppose it's possible. It doesn't matter whether she did or didn't. What really matters to me was that reaction. And it's worse because the information, there was a Homeland Security Investigator that was given the information asked to pursue this. What was his name? Osborne. Osborne.

And so he was found dead weeks later in his apartment, in his condo. And that's worrisome. It's worrisome because there's questions about how he died. And, you know, people, there's a lot of people who don't want to talk about Mr. Osborne. and his death. What is... Well, I think what they don't want... Why don't they want to talk about it?

They don't want to talk about it. There's no obituary, I noticed. Yeah. There's no... It's still an open question about how he died. Okay? We don't know. Did he commit suicide?

Did he... He was killed by a gunshot. He was killed by a gunshot. Okay? And it's worrisome because he was pushing to pursue this investigation. And, he was...

And people don't want to talk about it because they say, well, listen, we got to let the system work, work the investigation. We got to let the system figure out whether or not there's something to this. My issue with that is, if there is nefarious intent, which I hope to God, this is just some horrible thing that happened to this poor man. Or if it's suicide, I hope his family isn't suffering, all those things. You know, I pray for him, pray for his family. But if there was nefarious action that occurred with that, this is not something you want hidden behind a wall of secrecy because it's not safe for anybody else who was aware of what was happening with that.

It has to be talked about publicly. And I hope that Fairfax County Police, because that's where the investigation is going on, I hope they're getting to the bottom of it. I really do. Because... It's just interesting that as someone who's spent his adult life working for CIA and you said you loved it and got so much out of it, but you seem to believe

by what you're saying that the CIA would at least be capable of killing this guy. Well, I don't know who did that. I'm not saying the CIA did it, but something happened. Something happened he was killed. And you could make that supposition that, well, it might be the CIA, could be other people with interests. And I also find it fascinating that within a very short period of, that Steve Baker piece coming out saying, we found the woman who placed these pipe bombs. The Department of Justice, after, well, I guess five years

of not finding a suspect, arrested some autistic black kid and charged him with the crime. It's crazy. I don't believe that for one minute. That the autistic black kid did this. No, I don't, not for one minute. And the other issue, I don't know. Do you think the Department of Justice is capable of framing someone like that?

apparently, I don't, I can't speak to motives. That's so evil, though. If this is what happened, it's pure evil. And there's other data out there. People should go take a look at Kyle Serafin's podcast and what he was on the surveillance team, surveilling person of interest three. There's other data out there that seems to indicate that there is, this is not the full story. I don't believe that that kid, in my, this is just my opinion.

But I don't believe that that kid is the one, the guy they got arrested, the autistic kid that, you know, has feet that are six sizes too big to be the same person. Uh-uh. It doesn't add up. But I will say. Is the NWACP involved this? All the professional defenders of black people out there who are like out in force five years ago. I love black people. Okay.

Now is it time for everyone who stood up five years ago during the George Floyd insanity who said, I love black people. What about this black guy? This autistic black kid. Who's defending him? Anybody? Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. Oh, all the I love black people are absent on this? Apparently. Apparently. I mean... Not surprised. It's sickening to me. It is sickening.

You know, I never said I love black people. I never treated black people like gods or they're people like you and me. Yeah. But I'm offended by this. Well, I'm offended partly because he's... If this poor kid, you know, he sounds like he's got some spectrum issues. Yes. You know, I've got people very close to me with mental health issues. And to think that You'd like, you know what, this is a throwaway person. This is a throwaway person. That's what they're saying.

If this really is as bad as it looks to me, they're basically saying. It's not the first time when Mary Pinchot-Meyer was murdered on the towpath right near my house, childhood at home in Georgetown, Cordyre's widow, a wife, she was not, they grabbed some black guy and put him on trial for her murder when they knew when CIA was perfectly aware that he didn't do it. and they allowed the DC police to arrest this guy and put them on trial. Yeah. Well, what I'd say about all of this. Sorry, it just makes me mad.

It makes me mad too. I mean, it's so mean. Well, it's, and it's, every single one of these acts that, that, they're in our face. It's so obvious, and they're throwing in our face, it's meant to demoralize us.

And make us, make us feel like there's nothing we can do against this giant blob that does whatever they want. Run by John Radcliffe. And so, you know, as far as the dig is concerned, as far as Steve Baker's story is concerned, that was the death knell for the dig. And I think...

But it's got to make you think if CIA is this involved in it, clearly they were this involved in January 6th. I mean, why else? If I'm John Ratcliffe, okay, And I find out that someone on our security team has been identified by gate recognition software as the person planted the pipe bombs on J6. I would say at least we got to look at this. Yeah. So I wouldn't say let's shut down the investigation that produces information.

Right, right. And if I were, I'll take Kyle Sarifan's surveillance team. If I were on the surveillance team that was surveilling all these people that were in the vicinity, as soon as that new information came out from Steve Baker, I'd be that, I'd be calling up my surveillance team, and I'd be saying, hey, boys, we've got some new information. We're going to, let's go over the old files, and we're going to, I'm an intelligence officer. I'm not a law enforcement, but I as an intelligence officer, if I were doing something overseas and had some shades of what this is, I would immediately call my surveillance team together and say, let's get on the target again. Let's, let's start getting some brass tacks of what's going down. Go through the old files, figure out what is happening.

None of that's happening. I mean, this person who, like, I don't know anything. I mean, I was not involved in investigating this. I just talked to Steve Baker and you. That's it. So I'm not alleging anything. But, I mean, Dan Bongino at FBI was defending this person and attacking Steve, that's correct. Yeah.

Can you verify that? Wait, attacking Steve Baker? Yeah, Steve Baker. I'm going to help fund a libel suit against you and all this stuff. I supposedly he said, but he was certainly attacking Steve Baker. what does Steve Baker do? He used gate recognition software, which the federal government uses, by the way.

It's not a crackpot technology. No, no. Does it prove anything, but it moves you closer like anything else, facial recognition, right? Yeah. I mean, it breaks things open so that you can start conducting more investigations. Okay, so you're an expert in human behavior, of course,

because you're like recruiting spies. If this were happening in Pakistan, not your country, you'd be like this agency must be involved. Yes. in the event in question, J6th. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's the problem. I keep seeing parallels to third world countries of things like this happening

where I'm like, if this were happening in another country, I'd run an intelligence operation. You know, I've monitored elections in foreign countries. And, you know, as part of that process. And if, you know, here's another example. If I had seen the anomalies that had occurred during our election, that caused January 6th, in some foreign country,

State Department would be probably sending out a DeMarch. And will you explain to people who don't know what that? What does that mean? Oh, it means we'd be criticizing that country for their election practices. We'd give them a formal statement

saying, you have done wrong, and we think that you need to stop doing X, Y, and Z because your elections are fraudulent. That's what I'm saying. So that's another example. I keep seeing these parallels. If this had happened in some foreign locale.

It's kind of weird if you take three steps back. I'm not alleging anything at all. I just happened to notice the pattern that this happens in 2020. It's clearly no one's proved that the election was stolen, so far as I can tell, but the evidence that this was like not how you run an election. This is how a fraudulent election is run. It's overwhelming. And then Trump gets shot in Butler and then decides to hire Marco Rubio,

is Secretary of State, Steve Walsh's National Security Advisor, and critically, John Ratcliffe is Director of Central Intelligence. And then he wins the election with the majority of the popular vote, and you don't have any of these problems. I mean, if this were happening in a foreign country, what would you say?

I have some questions. I will say part of the reason President Trump won was because he managed to capture the Maha vote, and he should be probably a little more cognizant of what Maha wants. You shouldn't be endorsing MRNA technology.

Yeah, stuff like that. But that's separate from your point. It's just kind of weird, like if you wanted above all to have a war with Iran, not just to get rid of their nuclear program, but to reset the world order. Right. Get the U.S. out of the Middle East and the U.S. dollar and the petro dollar. And that was your plan. Clearly, that's the plan that's happening.

And no American president would go along with that because that would, like, destroy your legacy and your nation. Right. especially for someone who campaigned on no... Of course, and clearly didn't want to do it, but let's say that was your plan. And that's a big plan, that's a history-changing plan. Yeah.

You would, you know, you'd do whatever you could to make it clear to that guy, like there's a carrot and a stick here. Like maybe you get elected, maybe you don't get killed, if you go along with it. Yeah. Has that ever occurred to you? Yeah. I mean, if I'm being honest with my...

myself, yes. I don't know that that happened. Nobody has ever bothered to explain what did happen, if that's not what happened. Like, oh, it's just totally normal that we invaded Iran after, you know, six months after saying we ended the nuclear program to like restart again without trying to convince the public and then just do this thing that we know is going to wreck our country, which it now is. Yeah. What I, what I, mostly, not mostly, what I very much dislike is the alternative of voices that came together to form this coalition because whatever MAGA is, whatever MAHA is, like all these people came under a very big tent and they offered their voices, their support for President Trump because he was. What a great coalition it was too. Yeah. It was awesome. It was

awesome. You had these people who came forward and then the alternative voices have been systematically removed from the pool of people that are supposed to be advising. Is that true? I think so. Sorry, I'm just laughing. I was one of them. Yeah, no, that is definitely true. And like Joe Kent, for example. Oh, the best.

He's a wonderful human being who... I agree. I look at the reaction to him resigning the way he resigned. And I have friends who I deeply respect. I love him. And they're like, oh, you shouldn't have done it that way because it criticized President Trump. I'm like, you know, many, many, for many years,

when people resign from office, a lot of times they'd resign on. principle and they'd write a letter just like that. Joe Kent was not disrespectful to president. At all. At all. And if you can't get through to a president, you can't get your message across say, hey, listen, I need you to listen to me. At some point, doing the right thing is writing a respectful letter that says, hey, I disagree with this policy. I'm leaving for this reason. This happened all the time before. The thing that bothers me is... What's the option?

Leaking to the media, subverting the president's program. Those are clearly less honorable responses. Completely. If you can't carry out a job consistent with your own values, don't. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what, how is that bad? Isn't that what we ask our children to be? It's exactly what we ask.

And Joe Kent did exactly what many, many other people have done in many other administrations. My problem is the screeching and the gnashing of teeth that, came from this people associated with this administration. You know, they treated him worse than if he was like some kind of leaker. Well, actually, they claimed he was. Well, they claimed he was a criminal. A criminal. He was under criminal investigation.

His security clearance was unimpeded until the day he left. So we know that that's not true. It's a lie. They admitted it was a lie. But they trashed the guy's reputation. They trashed his wife. Yeah. I mean, just this, I mean,

I'm sorry, he has sacrificed for this country. And, you know, he did an honorable thing. He spoke with respect to the president. He couldn't get through, so he decided to leave. I keep seeing these indications that there are blast doors up around the White House, around key figures that you can't get through. You can't talk to him. And again, I wish I was part of the inner circle so I could see what was happening.

but as somebody who is, you know, maybe one or two layers below that, it sure looked like blast doors were going up around a whole lot of people. And, yeah, I don't know how we got on that, but I think it's important for the... Well, I mean, it's just because it's sad, and the coalition that brought Trump back to the White House

in 2024 was like a beautiful thing. It wasn't organized around a race or even a political party. It was organized around a kind of idealistic hope that the country could be better and that some measure of power be returned to the citizens who own it? It's like these are not radical ideas,

they're foundational ideas. Well, now that I am... It wasn't a hate-based thing at all. No. And now it's totally blown up because a small group of true haters, the genocide defenders, have all been, like, basically committed

to destroying this coalition, and it worked, and that's really... It has worked. And truth, now that I am not a government employee, I can speak about my personal political beliefs. I am a lifelong conservative, I voted for Ross Perot. I gave you Bill Clinton at one point.

I'm a lifelong conservative. And I was going to vote for Kennedy. I was going to vote for Kennedy. And I was going to go that, like, I am a lifelong conservative that was going to go the distance for a President Kennedy. And in my opinion, he did one of the most presidential things that I've seen in my lifetime. He chose the American people over power.

He said, listen, I've got an opportunity. If I work with this administration, I've got an opportunity to make America healthy again. It was the most noble thing I'd ever seen. I was really pissed off that he pulled out. I really was going to go the distance. I'd never, if someone had asked young Jim, hey, someday, are you going to vote for a Democrat?

I would have been like, that's crazy talk. You know, I might vote for an occasional libertarian or Ross Perra, but probably not a Democrat. And I was going to go the distance with him. That coalition that he brought in, I don't think President Trump would be president if he had not brought that in. And so for me, if we're talking about the coalition that said, no more war, make America healthy again,

We're losing, the promises are being broken. The promises are being broken. Mocked. Mocked, openly mocked. And like, you know, I'll still go the distance with anybody who wants to protect religious rights, bodily autonomy, all those things. Somebody needs to wake up this administration and say, hey, listen, if the person who owns the Maha agenda at the point,

holes, they're probably going to get those little bits of votes that are going to put them over the edge. It's a... It's too late. I mean, betrayal is hard to recover from. You know, you get in an argument with your wife and you can get past it.

You catch her in bed with the pool boy, and you're never going to see her the same way because she betrayed you. No. On a very deep level. Not that that happened. I hope it never does. But you know what I mean? That's what this is. You caught Trump in bed with someone. It's like he cheated on you. And then to lecture you about your lack of loyalty is too much.

You're disloyal. Joe Kent was disloyal. Really? Joe Kent's wife got killed in Syria because of the neocons. Yep. And rather than whine about it, he kept going and tried to serve his nation and did. And he was right, by the way, on the merits. And then he calls Trump, tries to see Trump on his way out because he likes Trump, actually.

He's a respectful guy. And Trump trashes his wife. and says, oh, he got remarried awful quick, really? Because it was under your administration that his first wife was killed because you didn't have the balls to get American troops out of Syria because you're controlled by Israel. That's a fact. So then to lecture Joe Kent about getting married again after you ever saw the death of his first wife, I was like, oh, can't deal with this anymore.

Yeah. You know, it's, there's been a lot of disappointment. I know that's the understatement of the year. But a lot of disappointment. Like, I have disappointment, like, to bring it back around to the conversation about the agency and everything else, I have disappointed with the agency. I wanted reform. I wanted real reform. I'm okay with getting rid of some of the chaff.

I'm okay with making some big changes and never happened. Never happened. In fact, this administration is just letting it move on. Like, I've left government service now. You know, I co-founded an organization. If it's okay, I'm going to take. talk a little bit about that because I think it's important. You know, I

at some point I'm going to go into the private sector. But the thing about being a government employee, if you're in military or forward facing, you want to have a mission. You want to have something that you're like, no, no, no, I want to be part of something bigger. And that's the hardest part of leaving government service. You know, that and you realize that, you know,

there's a lot of people in the private sector who are incredibly impressive and you have to compete against them. So some of these government schlubs are afraid to leave. Yeah, of course. But, you know, I co-founded an organization that sued the federal government over vaccine mandates. We got together. We didn't know what we were doing. We built the cars.

We rolled it out of the garage. But we were successful. We got a nationwide injunction that shut down the vaccine mandate for all staff federal government employees throughout the entirety of the Biden administration. Done. Succeeded. We filed 17 class action EEOs. you know, towards the end of my time at the dig, the last year in the dig, turns out that the CIA decided that every single person who is non-compliant with those vaccine mandates,

yeah, they weren't, you know, just insubordinate. They were spies. So they had all of them investigated by the counterintelligence mission centers, counterespionage department. Not really. Oh, really. All of them said, yep, we got a check. So I personally filed an OPEO Office of Privacy and Civil Liberties complaint.

And I blind-c'd every single unvaccinated officer in the CIA. And then when nothing happened after 40 days, I sent it up to the intelligence community inspector general. I said, you need to investigate this. my problem is they're purposely waiting longer than a 45-day period because as soon as I CCed all these unvaccinated officers, as soon as I CC'd them, they have a 45-day window to file an EEO complaint complaint. I know a lot about the complaint process now, never used to, never made a complaint until COVID. And I wanted to give them a chance if they were upset about it to actually file those complaints. A bunch of people filed the EEO complaints. But all we really wanted was,

and again, this is under direct Radcliffe. All we wanted to do was to expunge the records. See, when you have a counter espioning? Wait, John Radcliffe OKed counter espionage investigations? The investigation occurred in 2021. Right. Okay. It was discovered. So after it was discovered, we said, hey, listen, new administration, this is an easy fix.

Here's what we want. Just expunge the records. Just get that off your permanent security file because that's... You were investigators of foreign spy because you didn't want to take the death shot? Yeah, because you didn't want to take the death shot. And that was a simple request. Hey, please, just, we asked. Did Ratcliffe do it?

No. So now we have to sue. And so, you know, I found pro bono legal support. Why is Ratcliffe so vested in slander against people who didn't take the Vax? I have no idea. We, and I don't know, maybe he's incompetent too. He should have, his staff were aware. I made sure that both deputy director and the director's staff were aware that this was occurring.

I wanted them to just fix. it. And they didn't. So we're going to sue them. And so I'm, I'm, I got out of government service, but I'm still working the feds for freedom where feds for freedom is suing the CIA over this. And we are still actually litigating class action EOs. And this is a half decade later. So we've got an FBI class action EEO. We've got a, there's a couple others, a DOD, NASA. We're still litigating this stuff a half decade later, which is absolutely idiotic. It's this administration.

They said flat out, we shouldn't have to have. Well, it's just an attack on Christians. That's what it was. Here's a shot with the boarded baby parts in it. Can you take it? The people who said they can't, they get investigated as spies. Get all the Christians out. Yeah.

So at some point, I'm going to go find a normal job, but for right now, I'm going to... Let me ask you one final question, one final category of questions. So back to January 6th. based on everything you've said without any other evidence, I would find it very likely that the CIA was involved in January 6th, just by their reaction to it, or is aware that DOJ isn't covering for DOJ or something the government is clearly. Based on their reaction, it's actually the worst possible conclusion.

If I'm just going off reaction, I have no data. I can't prove anything. But it means that the Capitol Police, the FBI, and CIA were all in bed. Yeah. And they perpetrated it. a hoax of such colossal proportion. And they, you know, January 6th, you had people rotting in these jails. Oh, I know?

For a very long time. If CIA was involved in that, maybe that four wins thing, maybe that's, maybe that's where we should be going. We should certainly, a church committee, 2.0. Just shut it down at that point. Yeah. So, but that raises the question. I mean, like the firewall always was involvement in domestic politics.

Yes. we did overthrow Mosaddek, yes, we did this, that, and the other thing abroad, but it was in the service of American foreign policy goals, and so it's okay. But what will never do is start tampering in our domestic politics, our democracy. Right, right. And yet, I know for a fact that there are CIA domestic influence operations. I've never seen one, but all the indications are when you take a look at the media, media blackouts, what media covers.

It starts looking like something's happening. And, you know. Yeah, they're pretty obviously involved in the Monica Lewinsky thing. Not that I'm pro-Clinton, never have been. Yeah.

But do you think that's fair to say? I think it is, yeah. Yeah. So that's like pretty shocking that they would be involved in our politics, don't you think? It is shocking. And like I said,

I used to be different. And the variety of things that I entertain as possibilities are much, much wider than they used to be. You can't read an email that says, this is our story and we're sticking to it. And not, not, you can't go back. You can't go back to that.

So, yeah, it's disturbing. We're not getting referred. and I have a feeling we've got more pain ahead for us if we don't make some changes. I agree with that. Thanks so much for taking all this time, Jim, to talk to us. My pleasure. Congrats. You've been out of CIA less than a month, and you're already doing good work.

Thank you. Thank you.