The Tucker Carlson Show - Israel’s Purging of Christians From the Holy Land and the Plot to Keep Americans From Noticing

Episode Date: February 19, 2026

How does Israel treat Christians? We spoke to one whose family has lived there since Jesus. His story is shocking. Paid partnerships with: Hallow prayer app: Get 3 months free at https://Hallow.com/Tucker Cowboy Colostrum: Get 25% off your entire order with code TUCKER at https://cowboycolostrum.com Black Rifle Coffee: Promo code "Tucker" for 30% off at https://www.blackriflecoffee.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's something about true things that just sound different. When you hear something that's true, there's a different pitch or tone or vibration. It's kind of hard to describe. But when someone says something true, even if you don't exactly understand what it means, it sticks with you. The truth rings differently from lies. And recently, for a lot of different reasons, mostly because of the pressure, being exerted on our society, you're hearing a lot of lies, but you're also hearing a lot of true things. And some of them are about the nation of Israel. And they're obvious things. Like, does the United States have an actual interest in supporting Israel unequivocally? Is Israel really our closest to ally? Is there a good reason for this? Why are so many members of Congress taking money from a

foreign government lobby, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. These are all true things. They point to the truth. They are questions that evoke true answers. And the response to this has been very, very telling. The response has been shouting and screaming accusations. It has not been engagement. Almost nobody on the other side of the debate has said, for sure, let me calmly explain why Israel's our greatest ally, and we should say fund the killing in Gaza. Here's why it's good for the United States to spend this much money on Israel's, well, at this point, seven simultaneous wars, a seven front war. We're paying for it.

Why is that a good idea for the United States? How is it morally justifiable? And what's the purpose of this exactly? Is it really to defend the country or is it to expand its territory? No one will answer those questions. And that is why, simply, you're hearing this very loud conversation about anti-Semitism, which all of a sudden is everywhere. It's America's biggest problem. Well, there is, of course, anti-Semitism, and it's wrong. It's always wrong to hate people for their blood. There's no question about that. But is anti-Semitism

really America's biggest problem? Well, no, it's not. It's not even on the top 100 biggest problems, bad as it is. You're hearing about it as a way to shut down truthful, honest questions. And that's, of course, the dynamic. And it's very clear to anybody who's, you're not. paying attention. The problem with this dynamic is that it can inspire a lot of anger and, in fact, a lot of hate. People are getting matter and matter and matter on this topic on both sides. And you have to wonder why that is. Why doesn't someone to stand up and say, let's have a reasonable discussion about this? Let's just lay it out there in non-emotional terms, non-hateful terms, without attacking an entire group of people, any group of people, whether it's the Jews or

Muslims or the Christians, let's just slow down and be rational about this. Why is no one doing that? Well, it's possible that there are some people in this conversation, maybe on both sides, who want to inspire hate. And that's not a good idea for anyone. For this country, for Christians is forbidden. Christians are not allowed to hate people. They understand that it's against God's law. It's also the fastest way to corrode your soul and turn you into a monster. And of course, you don't want that. So how do you have a rational conversation about what's best for your country without becoming hateful yourself or inspiring hate in other people? We've really thought a lot about this. Don't become what they call you.

That's our number one imperative, at least on this show. They call you a hater. Don't become one. So we're trying. So we're doing a couple things. The first is we're flying to Jerusalem to interview Mike Huckabee. Mike Huckabee is, of course, the American ambassador to Israel. real, someone I've known for over 30 years and always liked, and also a Baptist preacher of some

kind, but certainly a prominent Baptist religious figure, also U.S. ambassador, and someone who has views that I just don't agree with at all on questions of American foreign policy and also in questions of theology. He's a famous Christian Zionist and a famous Christian Zionist and a famous proponent of neocon foreign policy. I disagree with both. However, it seems like of all the people you could talk to, maybe Mike Huckabee is a guy you could talk to in a reasonable way, in a calm way, without shouting or hatred.

By the way, if you want a picture of what hell itself is like, it's shouting and hatred. It's a large group of people screaming, you know, calling for violence. That is literally a picture of hell. And don't live in it if you can help it. We don't want to. So maybe Huckabee is the guy.

to begin a reasonable conversation about what's best for the United States and what's true about Christian theology. So we're going to try. We're flying to Jerusalem difficult to do, not without risk, but we're doing it because we really believe that the direction that this conversation is moving is bad. It's bad for everybody. It's bad for the country and it's bad for our souls. So maybe that's a start toward making it better. And the second thing we're really trying to do is to dissoning speak to Christians in the Middle East about the situation in the Middle East. And maybe not accidentally, that is the one group you almost never hear from in the United States. There are an awful lot of particularly Protestant evangelical ministers, leaders talking about Israel, Israel,

as they often call it, and what Christians are supposed to think about it, what they're required to think about it, what the U.S. government and the U.S. military should do to aid Israel, etc, et cetera, et cetera. And those are almost always framed in terms of the West versus Islam, you know, Israel, United States versus the Muslims. Okay. But there's almost never any mention of the fact that the world's oldest Christian community is in that area in the Levant in Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria, that part of the Middle East that is not so far away.

It's on the Mediterranean and is, of course, the birthplace of Christianity of Jesus himself. And there have been Christians there for 2,000 years uninterrupted. And we know that, both from the historical record and from DNA tests. So if you're interested in Christianity, if you are a Christian, one of the first questions you ought to ask is, how are Christians in the Middle East doing? And the political lines have changed, of course, and after the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the the First World War, that whole area was carved up into different countries, nation states, run by colonial powers, France and England. And they became Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, then after 1948, with the creation of Israel, Israel, and then after 67, the West Bank. I mean, it's,

it's been carved up over thousands of years by many different empires. But that region has remained the same, and its population has remained remarkably stable. And the Christian population has never left. These are not converts. These are the original Christians. It doesn't mean they're right about everything, but it means if you want to know what's actually happening, maybe you should talk to them. And two, it's great shame. It's great shame. The American evangelical community, such as it is or its leaders, have been very resistant to talking to Middle Eastern Christians or even to thinking about Middle Eastern Christians and the effect of American policy on those people. But we think it's really important for two reasons. One, it's just inherent. Like, what about the Christians is a fair question for Christians to ask.

In fact, they should be required to ask that question. And second, because sincere Christians are not allowed to hate or be anti-Semitic or hate all Muslims or hate all anybody or hate at all. It's forbidden by their religion. Talking to them directly is a great way to de-escalate what is, by design, becoming a tribal war. there is no reason for any conversation about American foreign policy to devolve into Jews versus everyone else or everyone versus Jews or any of this stuff. It's all awful. It's all a dead end.

It will end in violence. That's obvious. And then censorship and all the things that you don't want in your country. So like, don't go there. And we've really tried not to go there. And of course, they've called this show anti-Semitic and Nazi and all this stuff and all of their paid chills have joined in on this, but we still have to resist becoming what they call us. That is our job, period, as Americans and as Christians, to keep the hate out of our hearts and to stay

reasonable. And talking to Middle Eastern Christians, sincere Christians, is a really important way to keep the conversation exactly where it should be. So if you spend the evening at my house, you are guaranteed to find yourself in a conversation about the Hallow app. We talked about it this morning. It is the best prayer app ever. This lent, Hallow's Pray 40 Challenge invites users to step out of the noise of everyday life and dive into something much deeper, the parable of the prodigal son. It's a story about a man who leaves home, waste everything, hits rock bottom,

and then realizes something transformative. He can go back. And when he does go back, he's not punished. He's welcomed. He's celebrated. That story tells the truth that no matter how far you have gone, you can still turn around. You're responsible for your next choice, even if you've behaved in deeply unholy ways, and we all have. Mercy still awaits you. This Easter, Hallow's Pray 40 Challenge is the best way to stay in touch with the Word of God, the Good Word.

The challenge begins Wednesday, February 18th, and runs through Easter. Get three months free at Hallow. dot com slash tucker it's the best so with that introduction i want to introduce you to far as abraham who is a christian minister he leads a minister here in the united states who is originally from a town called bet sahur which is right outside bethlehem birthplace of jesus beths you're going to hear him explain in a minute is the place where the shepherds saw and the wise men saw the angels announce jesus's birth in the Gospels. And so he is literally from that town. It is a Palestinian village in what we call the West Bank, the West Bank of the Jordan River that was part of Jordan until 1967,

but has always been there. And it is a majority about 80% Christian village. And it's disappearing. The Christians are leaving. And there's not a lot of debate about why they're leaving. They're not leaving because, primarily because of the Muslims, are leaving because of Jewish settlers moved into the town by the Israeli government with funding from the United States, from a lot of Christians, by the way, in the United States. Not just Jews, Christians in the United States paying for these settlers to come and are driving out the Christian population. There is no rational justification for this. There's no moral justification for it.

It's an atrocity. and it is almost never spoken about in non-polemical, honest ways. And this man came to our attention some months ago. We've talked to him extensively. We think he is a truly decent man who has no hate in this art. You can judge for yourself. But no matter what side of this conversation you're on, and particularly if you're a Christian Zionist,

and by the way, go ahead and remain one if you like, but you should know that your views, and in some cases your money is funding the displacement and the murder of the oldest Christian community in the world. So with that, here's as far as Abraham originally from Betzahur in the West Bank. Thanks for doing this. So you are from a Christian village outside Bethlehem birthplace of Jesus, correct? Yes. From Betzahor.

Betzahor. So what is Betzahor? So first of all, thank you for having me here. Oh my gosh, of course. And I wish I never had to do this interview, to be honest with you. But I feel compelled. I feel a sense of urgency because the little town that I come from is under existential threat. And let me say I come here as a Christian, first and foremost, very proud Christian,

and I'm Palestinian-American Christian. And I'm very proud of this country and for what this country stands for and for the great opportunity that I was given as a Palestinian, this is my new homeland. America gave me education, work, and then later I got married. I met the woman of my dreams here, who, you know, my wife comes from Gaza.

And we met here in the States. We started a family. We pursued the American dream, and I'm so grateful and so thankful. But I'm here because I feel that the little town of Be Sahur is really under-eminent, danger that if nothing happens, if we don't do anything about it, there will be no more Christians living in Bates Sahur today. So it's a Christian majority town, and it's known for the shepherds' fields.

In Luke chapter 2, when the angel of the Lord appeared to the shepherds who were tending to their flocks, the angel appeared to them and pronounced the greatest event that ever happened in history, which is the birth of the Messiah in next door town, in a little town. So it says they were right outside town and that's where they were. Absolutely. So this happened in Bez Sahur. And if you go to Bez Sahur today,

the shepherd field is there. The people are there. And the angel appeared also with a chorus of angelic host, singing, glory to God in the highest, peace on earth and great joy to great man. Now, the significance of Bezahor is that God chose, this little town, the town of the shepherds, to announce the birth of Jesus. God didn't choose the spiritual elites and the religious institutions in Jerusalem. Right. And he did not choose the

powerful politicians, military in Rome, but he chose to announce the birth of a savior in a town called Batesahur. And when the shepherds went to Bethlehem, they saw baby Jesus, they came back rejoicing. And they were the first evangelists that told the world about the birth of Jesus. God with us. It was in those fields where they were attending their flocks. They were poor. They were marginalized. They were ordinary men and women who just happened to be there and God chose them to be there. So Bessahor takes pride. And it's not that we are privileged and better than anybody else. But that's the essence of the Christmas story that God gives hope to the people in the margins first. God's grace reaches those people first.

And the town of Bessahua takes very pride of this heritage and this legacy. How long has it been majority Christian? It's been always majority Christian. So for like thousands of years. Since the time of Jesus. You know, the town of Bedsahua is the early descendants of the first Christmas story. and they have maintained uninterrupted continuous presence since the day of the announcement of the birth of Jesus. That's amazing.

How long has your family been there? Generations. We always joc around like we go back thousands of years. Unfortunately, we don't have a family tree that could trace back to the time of Jesus. But the people have always lived there. The people have always farmed their lands. So you're not a new convert to Christianity. We're not newcomers.

We don't come from neighboring countries. We're not converts. We're not newcomers. We're not immigrants. We're an indigenous people of the land. Christian people. Christian Palestinians have a unique story to tell. What's interesting is that over that 2000-year period, a lot has happened.

A lot of different people have ruled that area. Of course, originally the Romans. Yes. 2000 years ago was the Romans and then of course you move up from Arabia, Islam starts and then you have the Crusades kind of flip it over and then you have it flip back and it becomes the Ottomans and that Muslims run out of Istanbul, Constance Noble, Turks, and then you have the Brits and now you have the Israelis. So during all that time, that village remained Christian, but your saying now under Israeli rule, because it is ruled by the Israelis, correct?

Yes. It's in danger of becoming extinct. I call Palestinian Christians empire survivors. Yeah. We have survived empires, armies came and left, rulers came and left. A lot of them. Identity changed, language change, culture has been shaved by those empires. But the people have always remained there.

the church has always been open to worship, has always maintained a gospel witness. And this is my deepest concern that if nothing has happened, if we don't do anything about it, there will be no more Christians in the Holy Land. So they remain there from, you know, 33 AD until 1967, and then in 1967 when this area is annexed by the government. Yes.

the real threat begins. That's what you're saying. Yes. Israel has pursued one strategy, Tucker, over decades, which is take as much Palestinian land as possible and keep as few Palestinians on the land as possible. This has been their strategy. It has worked for them because they're constantly taking Palestinian land. We're talking about, not proper Israel, but we're talking about 1967 when they captured West Bank, East Jerusalem, and in Gaza,

they have been taken land. They have been building settlements there. And this is threatening the local population, especially it comes at a heavy price. So that has been the policy for decades, and it has worked for them because it's almost near completion now. If you look at Bethlehem, the governor of Bethlehem, the district of Bethlehem,

it is surrounded by Israel. Israeli settlements. And it's actually, if you look it up, the Bethlehem ring. It's actually a thing. It's a ring of settlements all encircling every town, every Palestinian village. And they choose these specific lands strategically on hilltops, taking water resources, building walls around these settlements, building new roadblocks, building new checkpoints, building new security measures, they call it, motion sensors, electric wires, and it comes at a really deep expense at the expense of the local population. So when, so you grew up there? Yes, I grew up in the town of Bezahur. What was that like? What was your experience of the Israeli government growing up as a Christian

there? Well, I lived through the first Intifada, and we lived next to the YMCA in Beitzahor. There is actually a YMCA and Beetzauer. And down the road from us, there was an Israeli bypass road only. What does that mean? It means whenever they build settlements, they build those roads that are only accessible to settlers, which these roads are connect the entire settlements together, and they are directly connected to proper Israel, so they can easy of movement for the settlers to go.

What do you mean for settlers? You mean you're not allowed on them? No, absolutely not. Some roads in area B of the West Bank, Palestinians are allowed on them, like between the roads between Bethlehem and Hebron or Bethlehem and Jericho. There are some, few, very limited roads that you can't. I mean, what are you going to do? We have to share the roads. But in many of these roads, Palestinians are not allowed to. You're not allowed? Like as someone who's born there? Absolutely not. But those road, that road down to the road down.

the streets from us, we would see Soutters come and go. We would see Israeli army vehicles come and go. And one day, we were playing outside. Wait, I'm sorry, this is kind of, I mean, I've been there, but it's hard. I didn't fully digest this, I guess, at the time. So how about right now? You're, you're an American, you live in the United States. You've been here in a long time. Could you go and get on one of those roads? Let me explain it this way. Imagine you are in San Diego. Yeah. And then a group of people from Mexico come to San Diego and take a piece of property. Yes. And they build fence around it.

And then all of the sudden, they plant a Mexican flag on that. You know, not to say that I love Mexicans, but this is hypothetical. I get it. But it's a country too. Yes. I love Mexican food too. We've got a new partner. It's a company called Cowboy Colostrum.

It's a brand that is serious about actual health. And the product is designed to work with your body, not against your body. It is a pure and simple product, all natural. Unlike other brands, Cowboy Clostrum is never diluted. It always comes directly from American grass-fed cows. There's no filler, there's no junk. It's all good. It tastes good, believe it or not.

So before you reach for more pills for every problem that pills can't solve, we recommend you give this product, Cowboy Clostrum, a try. It's got everything your body needs to heal and thrive. It's like the original superfood loaded with new. nutrients, antibodies, proteins, help build a strong immune system, stronger hair, skin, and nails. I threw my wig away and right back to my natural hair after using this product. You just take a scoop of it every morning in your beverage, coffee or a smoothie, and you will feel the difference every time.

For a limited time, people listen to our show, get 25% off the entire order. So go to cowboy colostrum.com, use the code Tucker at checkout. 25% off when you use that code, Tucker at cowboyclostrum.com. Remember, you mentioned, you heard it here first. So for the sake of this, for the sake of this analogy, imagine they come and they build fence around this property. And now it cuts your property and a half and sometimes it slice it up. So you become, San Diego becomes fragmented. And they set up this fence around it.

They take the water resources. They build walls, sniper towers. And all of the sudden, you see the Mexican army coming. to protect those new settlers. And those settlers are not friendly neighbors. They're not coming to San Diego to be neighbors. They're coming to take the land from San Diego. And now, if you are a mother, a Christian mother who puts her children in Christian school,

and your school now is behind those new roads that these Mexican mothers, that these Mexican settlers built. They built a new road that connects San Diego to Tijuana across the border. And you are a mother who wants to go, who wants to drop off her kids to a school that is beyond those bypass road only. And this is not theoretical for us.

This is reality. When you go to Bez Sahur, you will see the settlements encircling the little town, choking it. It's like slow suffocation. It prevents it from its natural growth. That story that I told you about the mother is actually my cousin, who takes her children, she has twins and she has a six-year-old,

to the American evangelical school built in Batesahor. And with this new settlement they have built, they have set up a roadblock at checkpoint where Israeli come and manned those checkpoints to protect the settlers. Now, one day she was taking her children to school, and the Israeli army pointed guns at them, Oh, come on. Instructing them to let the kids walk across the checkpoint

to make it to the school to the other side. Now, this is not an isolated incident. This is not something that happens every once in a while. Their army is always present to protect the settlers. So my cousin told her a six-year-old, you're strong, you can do this, and we can walk through it. The teacher on the other side is going to receive you. As soon as she walked, she held her head up high. She passed through the soldier, and she fainted at the feet of the school staff.

Now, this brings a lot of psychological trauma. It brings a lot of nightmares. That's what Christian families in Bates Ahur are experiencing. Now, I remember I told you about this, our home back in Bates Ahur. It's not too far from the school. It's not too far from the new settlement. They are building in Betsahor. And down the road is the Israeli bypass road,

which is only for settlers and Israeli armed vehicles. In 1990, we watch settlers come and go. There was an Israeli army vehicle that stopped. and we saw, I was 10 at that time, I saw an Israeli soldier stepping out of the vehicle, pointing a rifle at us, and he started shooting at us. You? We were a bunch of kids.

I mean, my siblings, my mother was there, and some of my cousins. He started shooting life ammunition at us. And then my mother rushed us all into the door. She was the last one to get in. She caught a bullet in the back. Your mother? Yes, my own mother, who loved. the Lord and he loves Jesus.

And exit one, she dropped. Come on. She dropped on the floor, pool of blood. I heard to the back door, called my dad, my uncle who was a physician, put pressure on the wound, took her to the hospital. You saw this happen? In front of my eyes. My own mother. I'm sorry.

I should say we've been talking off camera before we started this interview. And I didn't know the story. It's not my interview. and I detected no bitterness whatsoever in anything that you said. I don't know how. Okay. Sorry, so you're just shocking me. I didn't expect to hear that.

Palestinian Christians take the sermon of the Mount very seriously. Apparently. When Jesus comes and he elevates our thinking, when he elevates our outlook on life, when he takes morality to a whole new standard, when he said, you have heard, do not kill. But I tell you, if you look at your brother and you call him Raqa,

a Rameic word for fool or stupid, you just have committed the murder. Exactly. And when he said, and remember the context, Jesus was talking to a Jewish audience who were under ruthless Roman occupation. Yes. They were persecuted. They were discriminated against.

It was very brutal to live under the Roman occupation. But Jesus is telling his followers, love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. This is something that we have grow up. We have grown up understanding the very essence and the meaning of this sermon of the Mount. Wow. I'm sorry. I've totally derailed your story because I'm just shocked. I really didn't know that was coming. So you're 10 years old. You watch your mother get shot by this. Okay, so many questions. Why did he do this? Do you know? This has been just random.

They do this not just to Palestinian Christians. I mean, that has been the policy. They do it to the Muslims. They do it to any Palestinians. Did she survive? She did. Miraculous. The bullet was just millimeters away from the spine.

It was an American rifle, I assume. Who knows? Of course. We don't know the soldier. Five, five, six round, right. Okay, so that's my next question. So some soldier, your mother wasn't throwing rocks at him, or screaming for jihad or anything.

We were just playing in front of the house. We were just kids playing. How can you live in this country and listen to people who have no idea what they're talking about? So this is the real threat of the new settlements. It's not just taking Christian land. It's not acquiring and taking by force the resources of the land, of Christian lands, who live there for generations.

It's inviting violent settlers to your neighborhood. They're coming to take the land. They're coming to squeeze. They're coming to crush. They're coming to do. Why are they mad at it? What did you do? I don't understand the hate.

And I certainly have been the target of it. But I don't understand. I mean, I understand why people like me. I'm doing interviews like this. But I don't understand why the, why would, someone shoot a mother in front of her children? Like, I just don't get that. Like, what is that? You interviewed Bishop Hussam, and he mentioned the story, the recent story, just last month. Yes.

The attack on a Christian widow. She's a Christian widow. That a violent settler came to her property grazing on the land with his cattle, and then he hits her with a stone on her head, fractures her skull, takes her to, you know, it's a, it's a, She almost lost her life. And when her son tried to defend her, the son gets arrested by the Israeli military. And then when the settlers, a bunch of soldiers, they showed up at the house in the presence and the full support and the complicity of the Israeli army. They knocked down the door. Her daughter was inside, Nadi Man.

And I talked to her. She drew the sign of her cross. And when they found out that she was Christian, you know what the settler told her? What? He told him, what are you doing here? This is not your land. You don't belong here. He said, go to France or go somewhere else.

You don't belong here. God gave us this land. Now, this settler violence that has been on the rise, the town of Taipei where they burned centuries-old church, they burned the crops, vandalized properties, ride graffities, spitting on clergy and pastors and leaders. all of these atrocities are done in broad daylight. They're done without accountability.

And no one is being held responsible for these atrocities. Well, 2026 is likely to be the year that some companies will find patriotism. They'll discover it. During the Biden years, corporate America thought hating our country was the thing to do. So they did it. Now, we're in a new era, they are coming back to reality. It's not real, though. It's a trick.

They don't mean it. at all. Black Rifle means it, and they've been doing it since day one. They're not just discovering patriotism. They were founded on the premise. As this country celebrates 250 years of existence, Black Rifle is brewing bold, American roasted beans built for people who believe in the values that made America great. So kick off 2026 with roast made for Patriots, not spectators. And for the new year, Black Rifle is launching cold brew coffee cans in just black and vanilla. Powerful, smooth, and made in America. Want something even more explosive?

Try GrapeX or Tiger Strike. Woo! Their new zero-sugar energy drinks with 200 milligrams of caffeine. That's about half the output of a nuclear power plant. But it's clean, energy for American-suming business. Visit black rifle.com

slash Tucker. Use the code Tucker for 30% off. Or find Black Rifle at Walmart, Target, Kroger, wherever great products are sold, Black Rifle Coffee, veteran founded, America roasted. It's America's coffee. I was talking to my wife when I was on the road for a few weeks,

and I was talking to her at breakfast this morning about that interview with the Anglican Archbishop that we did on the banks of the Jordan River. And we're Anglicans. We grew up in it. And the Anglican Church in the United States is, you know, it's not very Christian anymore. And I was telling her, that man, off camera,

I said to him, people spit on you. And my first thought was, why don't you shoot them? Like, don't allow someone to spit. I didn't say that because I, you know, but that was my thought. Shows with a bad person I am. And he said, every time someone spits at me, I feel blessed, they spit at Jesus. And I was telling my wife, I think Christians who live in that kind of environment understand Christianity in a much deeper way than we do here. I think that.

To hear you say that you don't feel bitterness, your mother didn't feel bitterness after being shot in front of her children for no reason. And this is what the gospel does. It transforms the heart. Yes, I totally agree. It's, it's, yes, I want to seek justice, but in the meantime, I don't want to allow hatred to poison my soul. I don't want to. Okay, please everyone watch this. Rewind. Watch that again. Can you say that again? I love that. I don't want to allow the, the atrocities and the sins that have been committed against Christian. to allow bitterness to grow in our hearts. Amen. Jesus provided a better way. Jesus gave us the example of forgiving and for loving our enemies.

Jesus forgave the people who even crucified him. And that's the model. That's why Christians in the Holy Land are the salt of the earth, are the light in the midst of that darkness. And if we don't preserve that gospel witness, This is the reason I decided to do this interview with you, Kutahar. And I said a prayer this morning in my sauna that God would speak through you and he is. It's the gospel witness.

We want to keep the message of Christ alive in the lands of its birth. We want to share the good news of the gospel with every person who is traumatized, with every person who is suffering, with every child in Gaza who has lost everything. The only hope is to tell them that God loves them. The only hope is to break the cycle of violence between the Israelis and the Palestinians. It's not going, I don't, you know, law will restrain your physical being.

But God sets your spirit free. He sets your soul free. Ah, you're making me emotional. No, that's totally right. He redeems us. And these are the basic values that are lived on daily basis by Christian Palestinians. Let me tell you about my friend Salam. Salam was the only child to his family who lived right down the street from me closer to this Israeli high-bass road.

And on February 18, 1991, a hateful... Israeli settler parked his vehicle next to Salam's house and he shot him in the head inside his house through a window while having dinner with his family. A new settlement coming to town is going to pose real existential threat to everyone living there and the Christian witness will be diminished. So this is a part it's hard to understand as an American. And let's just start a few minutes previous in the conversation. An Israeli soldier, IDF soldier, shoots your mother for no reason. Who is that soldier? Was there a trial?

Did you ever hear what happened to him? I mean, these sound like dumb questions, but I'm an American. Was he punished? Like, what happened next? We have no idea. So nobody from the occupation authority from the supposedly humane Western German, Israeli government ever went to your house and said, you know, we've questioned this guy or even followed up at all?

Absolutely not. You see, this is the issue. You just shot your mother like an animal and then never. The core issue here is that there is a culture of impunity. A lot of these acts, they go unchecked. Oh, I've noticed. It's a culture. And that comes, it's not insulated incidents.

And just to give you numbers, okay, the Rossing Center in Jerusalem. It's an Israeli human rights organization. So in case, you know, people discredit the Palestinian testimony, Palestinian Christians, you know, we often get discredit. Oh, I've noticed, yes. And it breaks our heart when even our brothers and sisters in Christ do that. Well, I want to ask you about that because that's where I have trouble controlling. Yeah, but I'm going to come back to the Rossing Center. They documented 111 attacks on Christians in 2024 alone.

11. You go to any Israeli human rights organization such as Betz Salem, peace now, documenting every single incidence. And you will find a pattern that these attacks are not random. They're not, they don't happen out of the blue. They're systematic. Israel has created a pervasive system. And we call it a structural.

pressure, that they keep applying on the Christian population to push them out of their land. When I speak to Palestinian Christians in Bitesahur, what they fear the most, they saw what's happening in Gaza. They have relatives in Gaza, and they fear that they are next. It's a real danger that is pointed at Bitesahur community right now, and this new settlement, and it's not the only settlements. I mean, Bateshawar is surrounded by settlements, and we have long history of these settlers coming and taking the Palestinian lands and building those, you know, lavish settlements. But ugly.

Very ugly. You know, they fill up their swimming pools. They put their green grass. While Palestinian Christians, they wait for two or three weeks for a water truck to fill up their tanks on top of the roof, giant black plastic tank that we're not allowed to even have running water. I've seen them. Can I ask, just because I don't want anything to fall through the cracks here, your friend who was murdered while having dinner by a settler, what happened to that settler? Salam Misla. We don't know who the seller was. He just stopped his vehicle, shot at him, and left.

And Salam is not the only one. May I ask, like, was there no investigation of this? No one was arrested for it? Yep, absolutely not. Salam is not the only one. There was another guy. named Edmond Ghanem. You know, back in the days, this policy used to be in much bigger full force. They called it home mapping. I don't know if you're familiar with home mapping. I'm American.

I don't know anything. I've been lied to about this for so long. So thank God for organization like Breaking the Silence, which is a group of former IDF soldiers, and they're sharing their stories and their experiences in the West Bank. So home mapping is when an Israeli army decides to go into a Palestinian home for the purpose, quote-unquote, of collecting intelligence. And what they usually do is they lock up the whole family in a room for a day or two and sometimes for weeks, and they take over the house.

And this usually is done to give the new soldiers some practice and training. It's called home mapping. So when I grew up, and these are stories from my childhood, Edmond was walking down the street when an Israeli soldier was on top of a Palestinian house roof, dropped a stone on Edmond and killed him instantly. A Christian young man for no reason. Antonio Shomeli, he was caught by an Israeli, you know,

he ran away from an Israeli army for something. He got scared. They caught him and they shot him in a close proximity in cold blood. And I can give you stories of stories that those are not terrorists. Those are not people who seek violence. Those are people who want to simply stay in their land, work, live, have a future, live in peace. And let me tell you know, highlighting the violence of the settlers does not mean we ignore the violence committed by some Palestinians. I mean, as Christians, we recognize there are some Palestinians who carry out attacks and inflict terror on innocent Israelis as well.

And we're not going to bury our heads in the sense and say, oh, it doesn't happen. You know, stabbing, ramming into some Israeli citizens. And as Christian, Palestinian American, we condemn any attacks on any civilians. We condemn any form of violence to achieve justice. This is the very core of the Christian message. We reject violence altogether. Palestinian Christians have always extending the hands of making peace with our Jewish neighbors, with our Muslim neighbors, with everyone.

We just want to live in peace. So we condemn violence at all levels. But there is a difference between when a Palestinian commits a violence. versus when a settler commits a violence. When a Palestinian commits a violence, wrong to be condemned, not to be condoned, to kill innocent civilians, usually he or she are shot on the spot and if they make it out alive, they get detained and they're thrown in prison. And right now the Israeli government is really pushing hard to pass a law to legalize the death penalty in Israeli for Palestinians.

But anyway, he gets thrown in prison. his house, his family, his family's house gets demolished, and his family gets a security block not to travel anywhere outside town, collectively punishing the parents for the crime that their son or their daughter committed. Now, this is what happened. So when a Palestinian commits a crime, this happens,

but when a settler commits a crime, there is an Israeli army that backs it up, There is a system that gives it impunity, and this is the grave injustice. As a Christian minister, this is why I come to your show and say, this should not be done, especially when Christians are supporting this without knowing the facts and the reality on the ground. This is what really brings my mind. Some of them do know the facts and reality on the ground. And I don't think that applies to your average evangelical Christian scientists in the United States.

I don't think they have any idea. But some of their leaders know perfectly well what's happening. And because I know them and I know that they know. And they know the Christians by name. And they have their data. And they know where they live. So, and I want to get, I have way too many questions for you, but thankfully we have time. But this seems like a good time to try to understand what's going on there.

And I've already admitted that's where my anger lies is toward, you know, the people like me, Christians in America who are making excuses for, this or abetting it, making it possible. What is that? Why is that happening? October 7 was horrific. Yes, I agree. It was horrible what Hamas has done, killing innocent civilians, kidnapping babies. I totally agree. This is wrong, this needs to be condemned, and Palestinian Christians have been consistent in condemning violence to achieve justice, as I said. But the overwhelming suffering lies on Gaza right now. The disproportionate response. I was in South Africa on October 7.

I was getting ready to speak at a Christian conference before 5,000 people in the room in Cape Town. And before I got up there, my phone started all kind of notifications going on. And I learned about October 7th. Immediately that night, I went on. I went on my hotel room and I recorded a video. I said, I condemn this horror. This is not the way we need to we need to condone. We condemn this act of violence.

But in the meantime, I said, I leaned over to my friend, my pastor friend, and I said, I am shaking because of the level of retaliation that the Israeli military is. going to respond. Well, you grew up with it, so you knew. My wife grew up in Gaza Baptist Church. Gaza Baptist Church. Not too many people know that Baptists have made it all the way to Gaza. No.

And Gaza Baptist Church was burned, was bombed. There was some family. Gaza Baptist Church was bombed? Yes. Now, imagine that First Baptist Church of Dallas people were bombed. or of Little Rock. I believe the whole United States Army and Marine and military and Air Force will be going after the perpetrator. Maybe not.

No. But yeah, no, it would be obvious that that is a crime. I just don't understand, and I've raised this question many, many times with Christian leaders in the United States. Like, what did the Baptist and Gaza do wrong? Why are we paying to bomb their church? Do you know? It's not just the Baptist. It's all the Palestinian people are being collectively punished in Gaza.

And what's happened in Gaza, it's really horrific atrocity that no one should be, you know, if it doesn't shake us at our core, I don't think we have any humanity. Well, we're Americans, so we have no idea what's happened in Gaza, so why don't you tell us? In October, there was a bomb that killed 17 Christians. Historic Church was bombed. fifth century church was bombed in Gaza in Gaza and killed so many Christians there is there's a lady that played the piano at Gaza Baptist church her name was Ilham farah she was an icon music icon in Gaza everybody loved her she was 84 she went to her to her house to check on the house if it's still standing or not she gets sniped shot in the leg by an Israeli soldier left to bleed to death for

three agonizing days. She was in the phone until her phone was dead on one of my closest friends. He was with her on the phone. And a few weeks later, when they went to bury her, they found out that the Israeli tank rolled over her body. Ilhan Fara. She played the piano. She was part of the worship team in Gaza Baptist Church. Nahedah and summer. When did this happen? That was in November 23. So we know it was a vengeance campaign. It was a retaliation. But why a vengeance against 84-year-old Christian piano players? Like, what does she have to do with it? Nahedah and Samar-Anton, another two lady, a lady in her 80s and her daughter. They were gunned by an Israeli sniper on church ground, Holy Family Church. That was also later on bombed and three people were killed.

those are real stories. Those are real people who have suffered because of this military power that is directed on them day and day and night. And that whole idea is really honestly is getting rid of Palestinians, is pushing them out. It doesn't matter whether they're Christians or Muslims. That has been the strategy. And now they're taking a different approach in the West Bank by suffocating the community. by creating as many Israeli settlements as possible so they can squeeze the communities out. They push them out of their land.

When you were a child, there were Israeli settlements near your home. Yes. Did you ever have positive interactions with the settlers? To be honest with you, some settlers have no idea. They just move them there. And again, we can't really paint with white brush and say all these people are evil. But there is a system that is enabling this evil to take place. Some settler, it's just cheaper, right, to live out there.

They get subsidized and they get government subsidies to move into the West Bank. And they call it Judea and Samaria. And unfortunately, going back to your questions, there is an organization, not just one, but there's one that I know of and they boast about it on their website that they have raised and spent $3.5 billion to support these settlements. and to bring people from all over the world to return to their, you know, ancestral homeland of Judea and Samaria. And they raised those $3.5 billion from evangelical Christians, from Christians in the United States. Now, if you're American here and you go to church, you love Jesus, you love scriptures, just like we do, we worship every Sunday, you're involved in ministry, you're volunteering at your church,

your local church. And if you hear the vision from your pastors that, hey, we're, you know, the Jewish people, they have gone under severe, horrific holocaust during World War II. And now we have the opportunity to bring some of these survivors back to Israel to their homeland. If you're an American watching this and hearing this, wow, this sounds really great. This sounds very noble. And I agree. I mean, as a Palestinian,

I want the Jewish people to live in safety and dignity. Of course. But it doesn't have to come at the expense of the local Christian Palestinians and the local Palestinian indigenous people who have lived in that land for the past 2,000 years. You see, what they tell you is that this is a great vision. It's, you know, Christian, when they hear about Zionism, it's a compelling vision.

It's bringing people who don't have any land and create a homeland. A land without people for a people without land. Yes, but the land had people. I know. So what do you do to create room is you keep pushing them out. Can I ask what you referred to Judean Samaria?

I know that under Ron DeSantis in the state of Florida, it's now like required by law to call it Judean Samaria, what we call the West Bank, which was part of Jordan, formerly trans Jordan, whatever. But it's right outside Jerusalem, all the way to the Jordan River. It's the West Bank of Jordan River. That area was taken from Jordan in the Six Day War in 1967. And so we've called it my whole life the West Bank.

And now we're required to call it Judea and Samaria. I mean, I guess I don't really care. I wonder why some American politicians telling me what I have to call a place across the ocean, because he's taking a lot of money from proponents of this, of course. But like, why are they so intent on forcing me to call it Judea and Samaria? I honestly don't understand. It's not just Florida. I mean, I love Florida. That you do. It's a great sunshine state. You know, I moved here in 2020 because I heard that Governor DeSantis banned COVID here. Amen. So we moved here because we love Florida and we still enjoy it. But they passed a lot to call

But why is some American politicians telling me that? It's many different states who are seeking to change the name. And for us, you know, I'm a Christian. Yes, it's the biblical name. That's what Judea and Samaria was called when Jesus was there. But instead of really worrying about calling a region a biblical name, why can't we apply biblical principles? No, but I'm just saying like what's the...

So the Israelis are telling our... lawmakers, you must force your people to use these words. And they're doing that across our society. And they say they're doing it. So they're doing it. But why? Why does it matter to them? They want to invoke divine rights. They want to make the connection that this land divinely and theologically belongs to one group of people. Now, if you look at the West Bank, Let's break it down. There is a legal implication, but there's also a moral and theological implication. The legal implication, the U.S. politicians hate it.

They don't like to get into the legal complexity of the West Bank because it's a losing case. The whole world agrees that the Israeli settlements are illegally built by an occupying force on Palestinian land. the land is occupied, according to United Nations, Fourth Geneva Convention, United Nations Resolution, Security Council, even, this has been the longstanding U.S. policy for the past 50 years. I don't know if you remember the Hansel memo, which stipulates that this land is occupied and the settlements are illegal. Now, from different administration, the language is different. Some administration, like Obama, they call it obstacle to peace. Some administration called it illegitimate settlements that are preventing and hindering the two-state

solution. But interestingly, in Trump's first administration, when Mike Pompeo was the Secretary of State, he rescinded the Hansel memo. And he said, those Israeli settlements are not per se inconsistent with international law, whatever that means. But basically, the are not illegal. They have a legal right to Judea and Samaria. For me, okay, I'm not a politician. I'm not a legal expert. I'm a Christian minister. I look at the issue from a biblical perspective, from a moral perspective. What are the biblical implications of this? Does God really approve displacement of stealing? Of land theft? And there's a biblical story, actually, about this, Tucker.

You know, when the evil king of Israel, Ahab, he had an evil woman, wife named Jezabal. They looked over and they saw a vineyard owned by Nabath. And they loved that vineyard. They said, man, we want to take it. And being the king of Israel, they could have invoked divine rights. He's the king, appointed ordained by God. But unfortunately he was a dishonorable king. He did not obey the ways of the Lord.

So I don't know how much divine rights he can claim. But let's say for the sake of argument, they claim divine rights. They went and they tried to acquire the vineyard legally. They offered Nabath money. Nabath refused to sell. So what do they do? They conspire and they kill Nabath and they steal the land. and they take it. It's the state

backed by divine rights stealing innocent man's land. Did me ask, did God notice that they did this? Of course he did. Oh, he did. He sent the prophet Elijah to stand before Ahab and tell him, what you did was wrong. God is going to judge you for it.

Now, I wonder, as a Palestinian Christian... And then what happened? And then what happened? Where are the Elijah's of our world. Where is the church standing up to this injustice? They're cowards, and they're making the wrong choice. They're going to have to answer for this. And let me be very honest with you, Tucker.

We can't paint with a white brush. There have been so many great American missionaries who have come to the Middle East, who have labored in the Middle East. A lot of great churches have given sweat and blood for the Middle East. They built great schools. We have one in Batesahur, evangelical church of Bessahur. And they have built hospital.

They have built schools. They have planted churches. But there is a stream of Christians that has disproportionate power and influence on U.S. policy. And it's that policy that is inflicting pain and suffering on a community like Bates Sahur. This is the core issue. I know. And they're doing it in the name of the Bible, where the Bible is innocent. I got a lecture this morning from an Israeli, this morning, you know, I'm not an anti-Semite.

I abhor anti-Semitism. It's against my religion. I've said that a thousand times, and I mean it. If I was an anti-Semitism, I just say I'm an anti-Semite. I am not an anti-Semite and I'm never going to become one no matter what they say. So I'm talking to, you know, like, what do you want me to do to prove him not an anti-Semite? 100%. Reckant your attacks on Christian Zionism. It wasn't, stop saying mean things about the Jews.

I've never said to mean things about the Jews. I don't feel bad things about, I'm not mad at the Jews, period. I'm mad as I've said a million times about my people, Christians, distorting the gospel in a way that allows theft. and murder and the degradation of human beings. I just, I'm never going to be okay with that. And that's what they're mad at me about is because I've called out Christian Zionism because they see that. I just had this conversation an hour ago, so it's fresh in mind.

Yes. They see that as critical. You have to have American evangelical pastors telling their congregations who are sweet people, who don't know any better. Yes. That God wants you to support. the state of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu. That's what they need that.

Yes. Is that fair, do you think? What Christian Zionists get wrong here is that not because they want to create a safe place for the Jewish people. That could be an honorable cause. Yes, I agree. But the process, the implication of what that means. To them, Christian Zionism means creating a safe place for the Jews where they can feel safe and secure. cure and which is honorable great.

Got it. But for Palestinians, Christian Zionism means taking our land, taking our resources, while declaring that you have a divine right and the descendants of the shepherds in the little town of Batesahur, who have maintained their Christian presence for the past 2,000 years, do not somehow have that same divine right. Our ancestors were Jewish. Palestinian Christians they first accepted the message of Christ

and that church is still intact today as I said some people even converted when Islam came to Palestine some people converted but they did not conferred from atheism Muslims converted from Christianity and probably some Jews even converted to Islam

so you might have some Muslims they can claim that they have a Jewish DNA But again, identity changes. It's dynamic. Of course. Language changes, but the people are there. So I think now is a good time to ask you to explain what Christian Zionism is. And I'm at a disadvantage because I'm so ignorant. I just didn't grow up around this at all. So as fairly as you can, can you explain what Christian Zionism? And I should say, you came to the United States and went to Liberty University.

Yes. Correct? Yes. Lots of great people there. Lots of Christian scientists there. Lots. So I think you understand it, right? And I love my time at Liberty University. I'm so thankful for the great education. I got there. I had to meet a lot of great friends, great professors. My life was changed there. I actually rededicated my life. And I committed my life to service at Liberty University. And I received the vision to start Levant Ministries at Liberty, which is the organization. I now lead. But here is where, you know, Christian Zionism have a different understanding. It's a theological movement that says that God has two distinct people with two distinct plans

and two distinct covenant. When Mike Huckabee was asked on, he was on an interview at TBN, Trinity Broadcasting Network, And he was asked, what is the verse that guides your day-to-day job as a U.S. ambassador in Israel? You know what he said? He said Genesis 12.3. I want to be able to bless Israel so I can be blessed. I want to secure all the blessings for Israel so the United States can receive the blessings in return. So for us, we have to look at this theology.

Do you know what that means? To me, as someone who's interested in words, a former editor, book writer, I care about definitions. And so when Christian Zionists say Israel, what are they talking about? That's a great question. Because as Christians, we have to look at the scripture through the lens of Christ. Christ is the point. Christ is the fulfillment. And the way I look at scriptures, I look at the Old Testament, the faithful and the righteous

people of the Old Testament and the righteous and the faithful people of the New Testament as one faith community. They're beautifully connected through the cross. The moment that you start separating this, this is when you start getting into different interpretation of what Israel means today. Is it the government of Israel are God's people or not? But when we look at the gospel, we see Jesus as the very center. We look at the Old Testament with the lens of the gospel. We see Jesus in the Old Testament. And what Jesus did is very critical. And it really is important for us to understand what Jesus did in the new covenant he brought and how it changed and it transformed the old covenant that God had with Abraham. Yes. It didn't abolish it. It didn't replace it, which is,

you know, we're not replacement theology. I do not agree with replacement theology. God is not done with the Jews. God is not done with anybody. God wants everybody to come to the saving knowledge and to enjoy his grace and to enjoy his blessings. God desires this for God so love the world, right? But what Jesus did, he did not replace the Jews.

But it was a journey that God started with Abraham. And when they called Genesis 12-3, that was a private conversation between God and Abraham. And God came to Abraham and told them, you no longer are called Abrams, but you're going to be called Abraham, the Father with All Nations. So God's original plan is to redeem all nations,

is to bless the whole world through the seed of Abraham. And when you look at the New Testament, you read a verse like Galatians 316, where it says, Abraham has one seed. seed. He didn't say seeds. And through that seed, you get to enjoy all the Abrahamic blessings. So what Jesus came to do, and it's that seed, of course, it's Christ. And that journey that Abraham started with God, it's still in motion today. It didn't divert. It didn't get replaced.

It didn't get, oh, well, Jesus came and his people didn't accept him. So, oh, let's me go to plan P. There was always one plan for God's redemption and God's salvation. It started in Abraham and it culminated in Jesus and we are the extension of that Abrahamic blessing. So if I put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, I get to claim the Abrahamic blessings in Genesis 12.3. What seems that way? And I, but I guess I don't, I mean, I have so many questions, but, I mean, first of all, how could Christians ever support any movement that rejects Jesus? I just don't, I don't understand that. How could we, we could say we feel so sorry for people who reject Jesus?

We want to help them. In simple terms, I think Christian Zionism has replaced Jesus with the current state of Israel. Obviously, that's why I think it's heresy. And I don't mean that in a, I mean, like I should be calling anyone else a heretic. I've lived such a bad life, but, and I'm not, I hope it don't sound self-righteous. I just don't understand. It's like I thought Christianity was about following Jesus and Jesus was the key. Is it not?

You're the minister. What Jesus did, he did two important things that we cannot overlook. He expanded the scope of the promise of Abraham. To everybody, right? To everybody. And he expanding the meaning of the promise. Okay. And let me unpack this for a little bit, for the viewers to really understand the theological importance and significance of this.

So when he expanded the scope of the promise, what is the promise? He expanded it from a mere geographical location alongside the Mediterranean coastline to include the whole earth. Yes. The New Testament spells it out. Oh, I know. The Apostle Paul, you know, in his letters to the Romans, Romans 413, he said, by faith, God made Abraham the heir of the whole world. Exactly. I've read it.

So for God's all of the world, that he gave his only son, that whosoever, right? So not only expanded the geographical location of the land, he also expanded the ethnic line of the people to include every tribe, every nation, every time. It says that again and again and again and again. And that's the story of Acts. It's a story of Revelation. It's the story of the whole New Testament. That's what Jesus instructed his disciples to do.

He said, hey, leave your nationalistic aspiration aside. We have a kingdom to build. The kingdom of God is at hand. The kingdom of God is among you. So they let go of their dreams to build the kingdom for Israel. And they went and they paid for their life for the kingdom, the eternal kingdom of God. So Jesus expanded the geography.

He is the locusts of the land. He is the one that speaks in Hebrew that, you know, if we enter in Jesus, we find rest. The land does not give us rest anymore. So he expanded the geography. He expanded the ethnic line to include every nation, every tribe. And that always, by the way, Takar, it's been always God's plan that way. In Psalm, the Old Testament, chapter 2, verse 8, it says, ask me and I will give you the nations as your inheritance. So God's plan has been always the whole world, redeeming the whole world, restoring the whole world, restoring the whole.

whole world and it's been always inclusive for all people all ethnicity it's so clear and it's clear in jesus ministry i'm spending the or just reading the four gospels again and again and that jumps out at me i mean who does who does jesus praise most the the roman officer i've not seen anyone with faith like this in israel right is some pagan guy yes right so clear but the meaning of the promise and this is important what does it mean Do we inherit a holy land between the river and the Mediterranean? Or does it mean something else? The meaning of that promise have also been transformed.

It's not just the scope of the promise, it's the meaning of the promise. From temporary to eternal, from physical to spiritual, from conditional, because it was conditional, by the way. He didn't just give them the land and say, this is your land. But it's God's lands, by the way. He is the landlord. And the people that were given the land, they were tenants. And they have to obey the commandments of the Lord. They have to love their neighbors.

They have to take care of the foreigners among them. And when they don't obey the covenant that was given to them, God always kicked them out. Oh, yeah. They get taken to Babylon. Yes, twice. And the Old Testament gives graphic landings. when describes the, you know, not for Israel not obeying the laws of the Lord. It says the land will vomit you out.

Excuse my language. So it was conditional when it was given to Abraham. But in Jesus, it's secure. It's eternal. It's no longer. And you know, what really makes me fall in love with Jesus and the patriarchs and the fathers, the church fathers, and the church throughout history.

And the Palestinian church really understand this because they truly understand the meaning of the covenant. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, it spells it out in Hebrews that they were not, they were eagerly looking for the New Jerusalem, whose architect and builder is God. They were not fixated on a mere strip of land. That's temporary.

That's going to be gone. We should be focused on what's eternal. And obviously when Jesus came and he was in John 18, when he was being tried before pilot, the charge was, are you a king? Are you threatening me? Am I, are you a threat to my kingdom and my dominion? Jesus said, yes, I am a king, but my kingdom is not from this world. My kingdom is not from here.

Why are we bringing back a pre-Christian territorial mindset to the church today? Well, exactly. And it is pre-Christian. It's not Western at all. It's Eastern. And collective punishment is the sign that we're not dealing with a Western mindset at all because we reject collective punishment. I may be mad at you.

I can't kill your kids. Not allowed. Yes. And there are some sincere dispensationalists. Let me say this. I have some dispensation. And Christians should debate this vigorously, but it should stay in the seminary. It should be staying within the walls of the church.

Well, that's the problem. I haven't even gotten involved in it because I'm just too ignorant, okay? When you said replacement theology, I don't know what that is that I'm not going to learn. All I know is that Christianity, my read of it is just focus on Jesus and you will be transformed. And so I'm just kind of stick with that. But as a political matter, and that's what I do cover and have my whole life, I don't understand what Ambassador Huckabee, for example, is saying when he says. says, bless Israel, okay. What is Israel? So my read of Genesis is it goes from like a tributary of the Euphrates in Iraq all the way, you know, to the Nile. So that's like six countries.

What are the boundaries? And that's still too small for God. Of course as a theological matter. But I think if we're speaking in political terms, this is a government run by, you know, secular people by in large. And they're saying God gave us this land. Okay, what land? What are the boundaries? We should at least define the terms. Second, who's we? What does it mean? Who are the people who inherited this? So the Prime Minister of

Israel is not religious. He doesn't keep the Sabbath or keep kosher. I'm not attacking him. I'm just saying like, then what are you talking about? Are you saying you've a genetic inheritance? Like, what, okay, let's say the DNA. Can someone who converts to Judaism claims divine right from Brooklyn, New York? I don't even want to have these conversations.

They're the ones pushing them. I think people, I'm happy to let people practice their own religions. I don't want to get involved. I don't want to know everything about Mormonism or Islam or whatever. It's fine. But as long as you're saying, you have a right to my money and your parents land on the basis of this promise in Genesis, I have a right to ask you what the heck you're talking about. Did you know that Israel goes out of its way to prevent messianic believers from making alia? No. Jewish believers in Jesus. If they find out that you believed in Jesus, they don't give you the right to immigrate to Israel. What? So whose land? Is that true? Whose promise? Yeah, I have a lot of Jewish friends who are believers in Jesus and they share with me.

And they can't move back to Israel and get all the rights of not as. So they're really, okay, so now that we're talking like present day concrete political realities. There are two claims that they could potentially be making. One is faith-based. So I believe in this religion called Judaism. And we could debate what that religion is. Is it Talmudic or rabbinic? Whatever, that's a whole separate conversation that I don't want to have, but they're pushing this. But it's either faith-based, I believe in this, or it's blood-based.

It's genetic. They have also historical claims. They have a historical claim. But who are the Jews then? Like, do you have more DNA? I don't know if you even know. the answer, but do you, if we were to say, okay, who lived in first century Palestine, current day Israel, are you more closely related to those people, or is Benjamin Netanyahu more

closely related to those people? They should do DNA test and see, and I did my DNA test. Palestinian Christians are 11th of origin. So it's likely that you have more Jewish ancestors than Benjamin Netanyahu's families from Europe. Probably. Okay. So, so then it can't be genetic because Right? Well, again, as Christians, we have to put the gospel lens. Well, I agree. We can't ignore what Jesus did, and this is the significance. You know, when Jesus went into Nazareth, his hometown, synagogue on a Saturday,

he was baptized, went in the wilderness, got tried with the devil, overcame with scripture, and then he went to his hometown. The scroll from Isaiah was handed to them, and he said, this is the Nazareth manifesto. This is the first sermon he's ever preached, Jesus. okay. Started, launched his ministry in Nazareth and it's so beautiful. He said the Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has sent me to set the captive free to bring sight to the blind, to proclaim the good news to the poor. Everybody in the synagogue were so happy. And remember the context. It was a lot of tension between the Jews and the Romans. So the Jews were waiting for the Messiah, but they were waiting for a military liberator. They were waiting for.

for a politician to come and lead them against the Romans. But then Jesus gave two sermon illustrations. One about a widow from Saigon, which is current modern day of Lebanon. He said, not because there weren't so many widows in Israel that Elijah was sent to the Sidonian widow. Okay, a foreigner. Keep in mind. When there were lots of needy widows in Israel at the time. But he went to a foreigner.

And not because there weren't so many people with leprosy, which is a skin disease. Yes. That God's grace, through Elijah's servant, reached a Syrian army commander whose name is Naiman. So Jesus is saying the foreigner gets to enjoy God's blessings and God's favor. And the enemy from Aram gets to enjoy God's blessings and God's favor. When they heard this, they were furious, they took him to the edge of the town that was built on, and they wanted to throw him over the... To murder him, yeah. So, Jesus' message, if we keep it central on focus, it disrupts all this exclusive mindset.

Why can't we share the land? Why can't we live in peace? We are extending an olive branch and saying, let's find... Obviously, there is 7 million Jews and 7 million Palestinians. living currently between the river and the sea. Obviously, they're not going to kick the Palestinians out, although they've been trying very, very hard to do that and had Egypt opened the borders in Gaza,

I think the whole population would have been pushed out. And they are trying to do it very, very closely to the Christians in Bezahou right now by bringing many different settlements and making life extremely miserable, restricted movement all of that. So obviously, the people are still there. They're not going to kick us out. The other option is that the Palestinians are going to kick the Israelis out. And for me, as a Christian Palestinians, I don't want to see that happen. I don't want to see another tragedy

inflicted upon the Jewish people. So the bottom line, and this is the posture and this is the attitude and this is the position that every single follower of Jesus must adopt and follow. let's find a way to share the land. Let's find a way to make peace instead of getting caught in end-time scenarios, something speculative sometime in the future. What is that? Or preferring another group of people over another.

It's superiority. It's becoming an ethno state. Are we going to keep it as an ethno state? or can we find a diplomatic solution? The danger is when Christian politicians start to mix the politics with theology and they come up with this formula that is indigestible, hard to solve,

so's confusion, and it keeps people on the sideline instead of actively engaging and becoming peacemakers. Well, boy, you like every, the 11th people's are so diplomatic. It's like unbelievable. Yeah, it's way worse than that. I mean, you wind up, I mean, as I know you know, you wind up with Christian politicians who are constantly invoking the name of Jesus supporting the murder of their fellow Christians in the Levant. So like, that is very, I think that's very serious. I don't think you should do that.

I think you're going to suffer for that. Like, don't do that. How can you, you? excuse or aid in the murder of innocence in the name of Jesus. And I've said this directly to a bunch of these politicians because I get very upset about it. And they're like under a spell. Like they don't, even in private, they're like, what we have to. What is that? Last December, the state of Israel, the foreign ministry of the state of Israel, sponsored a summit in Jerusalem.

They brought 1,000 U.S. pastors to Israel to attend military briefings. Military briefings? Yes. The head of the state was there. The prime minister was there. They were commissioning them as ambassadors, not for Jesus, but for the state of Israel. They were talking about this unholy alliance being formed. Oh, they attacked me by name, I know.

Right. and they attacked you and all of that. But what really caught my attention, Tucker, when I was reading over the website of that summit, I was reading some notes and some guidelines, do's and don'ts. One of the guidelines, it's a Christian ministry also who's organizing this

with the foreign ministry affairs. One of the guidelines stated that, do not speak of the name of Jesus. preaching is not allowed in Jerusalem. Express your faith through acts of kindness and all that, but do not mention Jesus. Why? When I read that, my mind went back all the way to the Book of Acts, Chapter 5.

When the spiritual elites in Jerusalem, they summoned Peter and the disciples. And you know what they told them? Do not speak of the name of Jesus. Imagine those pastors, coming to Jerusalem. to not be able to share their faith and to share about their Christ and their Messiah, the hope, that's one thing. The other thing, none of these pastors, they went and they prayed over deadstones, they went over and prayed over the Western Walls, which is, you know, fine, they can do that.

But none of them stepped afoot in a Christian church. No. None of them visited the local Christian population, who is. They didn't go to the church of the Holy Sepulchre? Not to my knowledge. It wasn't part of the itinerary. How can a church holy sepulchre, obviously one of the most holy places in Christendom, it's where Christians believe Jesus' tomb was, sepulchre tomb. Yes. And it's a wonderful place, amazing place.

One of the great places in the world, in my opinion. How could you not go there for a Christian minister? Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House. Oh, yes. He's a very prominent evangelical third in line presidency. Last August, he went to Israel. He prayed the Western Wall. He went to a settlement in the West Bank. And he planted trees in those settlements in the West Bank. And he declared that this Judeans and Samarian Hills

belonged to the Jewish people by divine right. What John's... We're going to be so punished for this. We're going to be punished for this. I'm just telling you. He never interacted and met with the... You know, people go and visit the dead stones, but they forget about the living stones. There are people there who are suffering because of this system that keeps oppressing them and applying pressure.

And their numbers are shrinking. The people are leaving. And people throw this number. Well, it's because of other pressures. No, Israel is the only place in the Middle East, the only democracy in the Middle East that Christians feel respected and protected. You know, the prime minister of Israel. What year were you born? I was born in 1980.

Okay. So you grew up under the Israeli government as a Christian. Yeah, and I watched also the Oslo Accord. Yeah, so, I mean, like, I'm talking, you're sitting right here. Is that what do you think when you hear that? And I still minister there. our ministry still serves in the Palestinian territories, and we serve in Jordan and we serve in Egypt, and our ministry is focused on reaching young people, equipping them and empowering them

so they can be agents of change in their communities, so they can become peacemakers. This is why I left my secular job in D.C., a very successful job, and committed my life to this mission because the Christian presence in the Middle East is at the brink of extension. If we don't do anything about it, especially in Bitsaul right now, there'll be no Christians left. But just to be clear, under the Israelis, it's at the point of extinction. Having survived the Romans and the Crusaders and the Ottomans and the English, it's under the Israelis that the Christians are about to go to extinct. This is exactly why I am not going to be silent anymore. Not because I'm not of activist.

I don't go on podcasts and just start talking. But when I see something against the values that we believe in, the biblical values, against the character of God, I have to be that prophetic voice and say, not in our name. Jesus showed us a better way. Jesus taught his followers to be the salt, to be the light, to be the peacemaker. He entrusted us with the Ministry of Reconciliation. How much reconciliation efforts are we doing? We're given money and billions of dollars to build these settlements and taking the land from Christians, but we're spending little to no money in peace initiatives, in reconciliation efforts,

in understanding and mutual understanding. And there are so many Christian-led organizations on the ground that are doing amazing work in raising up the next generation. That's the whole reason I'm putting my life on the line, not to see Palestinian Christians and the next generation of Palestinians go hopeless and in despair. Are you... I mean, the violence and the worship of violence there

is really like no place I'm aware of in the world. And, you know, people who follow this already know that, and everybody's afraid. Yes. I have noticed. I mean, we're going to Israel, and more people will. called me, you know, ooh, be careful. Everyone's afraid. Are you afraid? Absolutely. I mean,

the people we serve in Bethlehem, when we tell the parents that we're taking your kids to Jerusalem, whenever Israelis allow us to get permits, it's becoming really very rare now that Israelis would allow Christians from Bethlehem, which is five kilometers away to go and spend a day in Jerusalem. But when we do get their permits, and we tell them... You don't get permit. Christians in Jerusalem, I mean, in Bethlehem have difficulty going to Jerusalem three miles away? Oh, absolutely. The whole thing is the system is set up to restrict the movement to only you have to apply through the Israeli militaries to get permission to go from a Palestinian city to an Israeli city or Israeli control cities. Think about, I mean, look, at the West Bank, it's like a Swiss cheese.

There are holes in the Swiss cheese. Those are the Palestinian cities. They live in 165 enclaves throughout the West Bank. But Israel controls the whole cheese militarily. And they apply pressure on these Palestinian cities. Some people even call it the holy Swiss cheese. So when Palestinians want to go from one Palestinian city to another, they have to drive on specific roads,

going through specific checkpoint, roadblocks, And around every city, there are iron gates that Israel seals off every time they feel like it. Our ministry director was coming back from a trip from Jericho to Bethlehem. A drive should take him about 35, 40 minutes. He got stuck at one of the checkpoints for eight hours. He got hungry. He ordered food on DoorDash, came through a motorcycle, delivered pizza for him. But he got stuck there.

for eight hours. And he'd had a team of ministers from the Netherlands, and they were all stuck together. They saw it firsthand. Lines and lines of trucks and Palestinian cars. Why? Because the Israeli soldier on that checkpoint felt like taking a nap. Eight hours.

This is the daily reality. This is not random. A trip that will, you know, if you had a medical emergency, you miss it. If you have a job interview, if you want to go from Bethlehem to Ramallah, from Jericho to any other Palestinian town, Hebron, you will have to go through these, you will have to navigate through the Swiss cheese. And sometimes you get shot at randomly at gunpoint. I was with a group of church leaders from Alabama, took them to the West Bank, went through Jordan, and then one of the checkpoint that leads to Jerusalem. We got stopped.

Where is your passport? Everybody held the American passport. I had my American passport, which I'm very proud of. We held it. But the soldier profiled me out of all the 10 church leaders. And he said, you, where is your Palestinian ID? I gave him my Palestinian ID. And he said, you're not allowed through this checkpoint.

You have to go through Kalandia, which is you have to walk on foot. You're not allowed to. Did you say, son, I pay your salary. I'm an American citizen. Don't speak to me like that. I told him, you are embarrassing the state of Israel in front of our American friends who I brought from Alabama. They watched the whole thing. Some of them, they broke in tears.

They say, what is this? And what happened? And we made a U-turn and went to the other checkpoint. But, I mean, okay, you pay for this. Like, you're an American taxpayer. Palestinian, Christian, Americans, specifically. We feel betrayed on two levels. Yeah.

We pay taxes. We work so hard to fund this system. In the meantime, our sacred text and our sacred scripture is used against us. You don't belong here. God gave this land to somebody else. So our money and our scripture is being flipped on us and weaponized against us. I mean, I'm an Episcopalian from La Jolla. I've got nothing to do with any of this at all.

And it makes me just on justice grounds and decency grounds and Christian grounds, It makes me like crazy. I have to say prayers to calm down. How do you stay so calm? We need to raise awareness. I love the American church so much. I believe there is, and I believe in the promise of America, Tucker. I believe America can play a significant role in bringing peace and prosperity to the Middle East,

which is, that's the state of the intention. But the way we go about it is sometimes it contradicts biblical values. So you're an American and you have the blue passport, your taxpayer, you get mistreated by the Israeli government, the IDF, which you also pay for, holding a weapon made in your country that you paid for. And you have an ambassador who serves supposedly your country at the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem. So have you called Mike Cuckabee about this? We have given up on the politicians. He's not a politician. He is an emissary of the president who works for the United States State Department.

I'm the son of an ambassador. I know how this works. And his job is to reflect the views of his president and to defend his country in a foreign country. He represents America's interests in a foreign country. That's not what he said on the last TBN interview. He said, my job is to secure the blessings for Israel so America can get blessed. So his primary concern is really blessing Israel about what that means. Has America been blessed by this policy, do you think?

I've lived here for 56 years. I don't think it's been blessed by this policy at all. I don't think. I don't see the blessings. I don't think this is how God views blessings. You see, we are blessed in Christ. That's what the American church needs to get. Christ, in Christ.

Christ in you is hope of glory. Yes. What else do you really want? that's the blessings that we get to enjoy. But in the meantime, we want to live in a society that is fair, that is based on justice, based on human dignity. And we cherish these values, these American values, and these are based on biblical values. And some people make the argument that the entire Western civilization is based on these values. Well, of course it is.

But when I see, you know, a regime in the Middle East that is claiming to be the only democracy in the Middle East, and it's the extension of the West, and they're not holding, they're not living up to these biblical values, then they need to be held accountable. Yes, I, well, I couldn't agree more. My whole wife has been sidetracked by this question in the past few months because I feel it so strongly, and I never wanted to have this debate. But whatever, but just to the question of Huckabee, his job is to represent you and your government. So if you called him and don't want to, you know, Huckabee is not the most guilty person.

I know him. But I just have to ask, like, could you call Huckabee's, could you call the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem and say, hey, I'm an American citizen and I'm being, some guy with a gun is like pulling me out of the car. Yeah, but how would you have a conversation with somebody who says Palestinians don't exist? Who says Palestinian, there are no such thing as

Palestinian. He said that? Yes, it's on tape. What does that mean don't exist? That means they're invented people. They, oh, they're not indigenous to the land. They came from somewhere and where did they come from? Well, they claim that Palestinians came from neighboring countries to prevent the Jewish state from being established. They don't even recognize that these people have been on the land since the shepherds, at least, if not longer. We can prove that since we've decoded the human genome. We don't have to guess about any of this. We give everybody in the, we could give all 14 million people in this zone DNA test and we could find out who's got the longest connection to land. Couldn't we do that? Yes, absolutely. For me, and even, not just

the ambassador, but also to, I want to appeal to that broader evangelical community and is my tribe. I justice, human rights, safety and security. is not a zero-sum game. Loving Israelis does not mean ignoring the suffering of the Palestinians. Praying for the peace of Jerusalem, which I do it all the time.

I want Jerusalem to prosper. I do too. I want Jerusalem to thrive. I totally agree. But politicians are using this verse to say, I want to bless Jerusalem, pray for the peace of Jerusalem. That means Jewish sovereignty in Jerusalem.

Total disregard of the historic church that has been sitting there for the past 2,000 years, okay? I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, but praying for the peace of Jerusalem does not mean accepting the destruction of Gaza. Justice is not a zero-sum game. No. Our political system and our pastors and leaders,

they need to recognize that there is another way. It's not either-or mentality. it's not choosing to support and bless one group of people because most likely it's going to end up at the expense of the vulnerable. Can I ask you about that point, the expense of the vulnerable? This is like theology 101. As a Christian, can Christians ever accept as good the killing of innocence? Absolutely not.

That's not even a close call, is it? It's a crime against God. Exactly. Because everyone is created. in the image of God. Israelites, Palestinians, people with faith, people without faith. Everyone is valuable

to be cherished and loved by God. But if you have done nothing wrong, it's wrong to punish you, correct? It's wrong to shoot your mother for not doing anything. No, I mean, not just your mother, anyone's mother, anyone's child. You can't, you could say, well, that happens, which it does, of course, a lot. And it's not just the Israelis who do it.

Of course, everyone does it. But don't Christians have to say that's wrong? Absolutely. We have to raise a prophetic voice. It's not, Christians are easy to be compassionate. Because Jesus was compassionate. He saw the sheep without a shepherd. He was moved with compassion.

But also Jesus, when necessary, he raised a prophetic voice. He braided a whip, actually, at one point. Yes. He spoke against the injustice and the evil doers with the goal of true. transforming their heart. Now, I don't have the ability to convert anybody. I don't have the ability to change anybody.

But I know the one who can. Yes. And if the church doesn't believe in that power, that the hardest of hearts can be transformed. Paul, what changed Paul? Exactly, exactly. It was a ruthless terrorist killing Christians and dragon them went to Damascus. Just walking to Syria to kill more Christians.

Yes. Yep. Jesus changed him and he became the apostle. We need more stories of this in the Middle East. This is what gives me up. This is what keeps me up at night and this is what gets me up in the morning. It's to see the Middle East healed, transformed by the love of God. If we have the power to stop the injustice inflicted upon the Palestinian, we need to speak.

If we have the ability to speak against the injustice committed against Christians in Syria, in Iraq. Lebanon. I had a friend who pastored the Good Shepherd Evangelical Church in Sweda. He was butchered with his family, 12 members in cold blood by an Islamic terrorist. We need, as Christians, we condemn that. We don't condemn that.

This was in Syria. This was in Syria not too long ago. His name is Khalid Mazhar. Yeah. So as Christians, we have a responsibility. We have a sacred calling from God to advocate on behalf of the widow, the orphan, the poor, the marginal. This was the very core message. And many Christians, I want to point this out, they see this as, oh, well, I want to stick with the gospel.

I want to preach the gospel. This is social. That is the gospel. But Jesus had these two missions that are not competing. He preached the kingdom. He preached forgiveness of sins. he talked about repentance, but in the meantime, he fed people. He healed bodies.

He raised people from the dead. You know, the good news to a child in Gaza who lost all of his family member and airstrike, what is the good news to that child? It's our proximity. It's our presence. It's delivering a cold cup of water for the least of these. Of course. This is the gospel message.

So many Christians, they decide to say, well, I just want to focus on the gospel and in-time theology, and they spent hours and resources and millions of dollars preparing for an event that's going to happen or may not happen in the future, while people are living hell on earth. So anti-right, great theologian, he said, you know, heaven is not a place that you get to go to after you die, but heaven is bringing God's love to people on earth. That's right. And hell is not just a place you're sent to. It's a place you can experience when,

and whenever you see chaos and violence and deception, like that's what hell is. Yes. It's people screaming lies. I'm totally convinced of that. So let me ask you about a very controversial topic, and that's Islam and the Muslims. And I noticed that in the United States

that anyone who says, wait a second, what is going on in Gaza or the West Bank? Why are we paying for this? Why are our ministers? Our ministers making excuses for this. Anyone who says those things is accused of working for the Muslims or being a secret jihadi or taking money from some Muslim group or country or whatever. This has happened to me, so it's a look. For the record, I've never taken money from anybody, Christian, Jew, or Muslim, and won't. But whatever, the point is, the response is, I don't want to talk about what your tax dollars are doing because Islam is so scary that we just have to go along with this or else we're all going to be living in a caliphate. Yes. Have you noticed this? Well, this has been the media narrative

and we are told by Christians and because I minister among Christian circles that this is a cosmic battle between God of the Bible against his enemies. Yes. This is between good and evil, Islam versus the West. Once you frame a conflict like this, you are destined for perpetual animosity and perpetual wars. That's the whole point.

It was the point of 9-11, obviously. Do we have our differences, deologically, with Islam? Yes. Nobody ignores that. Do we have our understanding of God? Yes, but that doesn't mean we have to discriminate and demonize an entire group of people, almost 2 billion people for the sins that are committed by bad actors who are using religious texts or whatever to justify violence.

That is speed to be called out. And I believe many governments in the Arab world have rejected political Islam. Well, they fear it too because it's a threat to their power. But you have to wonder like something like Syria where Israel teams up with Turkey. This is true. No one wants to hear it. But to take out the last government, whatever. And the net effect is to have savagery by jihadi groups against Christians and al-Oids and other religious minorities.

But like, okay, I mean, I'm against shihadi's. I'm against radical Muslims for sure, always have been. But like, they're not the ones who did this, actually. They're not the ones who overthrew a secular regime and made it possible. to murder all the Christians. Same in Iraq. They had a secular regime, not defending Saddam or Uday or Kusay.

Yes. But it was the Israelis pushing the Bush administration to overthrow this regime that got millions of Christians in Iraq murdered or displaced. That's just a fact. And had we listened

to the church leaders in Iraq, had we listened to the pastors and leaders who pleaded with the administration not to invade, we wouldn't have this catastrophe. Iraqi communities, very small, but they're faithful, they're staying, but they have been devastated by the terrorists. They're mostly gone now, and you will see the same thing in Syria, same thing in Lebanon.

Who blew up the port of Beirut? Yeah, because once you create a chaos, once you blow up a place, you create a vacuum, a vacuum of hope. And what's going to fill this hope is radicalism, extremism. You know, I tell you a story about Ali Farage from Gaza, little boy. I think he's six or seven or eight. I can't remember his age. He was blown off his apartment into the next door roof. And there's a famous picture he's pointing hands and blooded.

He lost five of his sisters, 15 members of his family. That creates a deep vacuum in his life. if it's not filled with the hope, if it's not filled with God's love, this is the easiest, you know, someone who's going, when you lose your agency, when you live in despair, I'm not giving excuses,

but this is the vacuum that we need to fill with. And I'm deeply concerned, you know, I leave the politicians to figure it out politically, but as Christians, as ministers, our posture has to change, our attitudes toward everybody. Even our enemies have to change. Especially our enemies. Especially our enemies. Yeah.

We're not going to be naive and bury our heads in the sands and, you know, pretend that we're not, but God is not calling us to be escapist. No, and as Jesus himself says, like, loving your friends, loving people who love you, even pagans do that. You don't get points for that. We're required to love our enemies. And engage in the culture, engage in the community with the gospel, because we have a powerful hope that can transform hearts and minds.

And this is the only hope that the Christian can really offer. Can I ask you one last question? It's about the third temple. So in the world that you've lived in, I didn't fully realize just how in evangelical world you've been. How old were you when you came to the U.S.? I was 18. 18. So you come literally from the West Bank to the United States and you go to Liberty.

And a lot of great people, but they have a totally different understanding of what's happening in the place that you grew up than you do. And a totally different theology maybe than you do. It's America. It's different. But one of the ideas that's common among Christian scientists is that they need, Christians need to help rebuild this thing called the third temple. Yes. in Jerusalem. Unfortunately, there's a mosque on the site, one of the holiest places in Islam,

oxa mosque. But is that something that Christians should want to rebuild the third temple? What is that? Where does that idea come from? And what would happen if it were attempted? Absolutely not, the short answer. Okay. Jesus and Ephesians too, he knocked down the wall of hostility that separated the Jews and the Gentiles.

Yes. Why are we bringing it back up? Why are we building it? There is no point, there is no scripture that point to the fact that Christians need to build a third temple. There is no prophecy about a third temple. There is no way in scripture about anything close to a third temple. Well, we're doing it. I mean, we're moving toward knocking down a locks a mosque and replacing it with a third temple.

I mean, all things being equal, that's going to happen. It was just occupied yesterday by a bunch of settlers. So this is happening in slow motion. Christians are paying for it. again, what is going on? They're putting their hopes on earthly matters where I direct him to the faith that Abraham had, where he fixed his eyes on what eternal, the new Jerusalem. In Galatians chapter four, it spells it out really clearly.

If you are in Christ, you belong to the free woman, Sarah. And if you don't belong to Christ, you're still fixated and enslaved. by the idea of an earthly Jerusalem. The land matters, yes, we honor Jerusalem. We remember what Christ had done there. It carries deep memories. But the question is, does it have any spiritual significance? Does the temple have any spiritual significance?

When Jesus came, he transformed the whole meaning again. You know, John chapter 1, it says, Jesus, he pitched his tent among us. The word became flesh. The word became flesh, he tabernacled among us. That's the exact word that the Greek language uses to describe Christ incarnation. He tabernacled the montus because he is the locus of the land. If there is anything holy in the holy land, it's Jerusalem. If there is anything holy in Jerusalem, it is the temple.

If there is anything holy in the temple, it is the holy of holies. But guess what happened when Jesus was crucified? That thing got destroyed. split and a half, because he is the final destination. Everything in scripture points to Jesus, not to a third temple. You know, when Jesus ascended and he sent his Holy Spirit, he empowered his disciples to be the temple of the Holy Spirit because God does not reside. It specifically said, it does not reside in a house built with hands and stones. God resides in us human beings through the Holy Spirit.

So why are we so fixated on erecting a temple that does not have any spiritual significance whatsoever? We are the temple of God. Jesus himself is the high priest, according to the New Testament. Jesus himself is the Lamb of God, the sacrifice. And Jesus himself offered himself as the sacrifice. So he is the alpha and he's the omega. He's the author and the finisher of our faith, according to our Holy Scripture.

And Christians need to be fixated on that holy hope. Thank you for the time you spend here. It's an amazing conversation. I appreciate it. Thank you, Tucker. Thanks for watching the Wednesday edition of the show. We stream live every week, Wednesday, 6 p.m. Eastern on Tucker Carlson.com. members can watch the show live, join the members only chat and take part in the conversation in real time.

We're grateful to be doing it and grateful that you watch it. Thank you.