The Tucker Carlson Show - John Leake: The Demonic Rituals to Replicate God and Mankind’s New Religion of Science

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Ritual piercing of the body. The shedding of blood. The promise of salvation. John Leake explains the religion of vaccines, and why its adherents are dangerous. (00:00) The Vaccine Hesitation Heresy (14:20) The Religious Annunciation of the Vaccine (21:20) Vaccine Worship (33:58) Why Do Vaccine Developers Have Legal Immunity? (45:49) The Demonic Forces at Work in the Medical Industry Paid partnerships with: Eight Sleep: Sale extended! Get up to $400 off the new Pod 5 Ultra at https://EightSleep.com/Tucker Pure Talk: Get unlimited talk, text, and data for just $29.95/month for life -- only at https://PureTalk.com/Tucker Hallow prayer app: Get 3 months free at https://Hallow.com/Tucker Battalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver. Gain clarity and confidence in your financial future at http://battalionmetals.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Thank you, John, for doing this. All through the COVID experience tragedy, I had this kind of recurring question in my mind, which no one's ever answered. And I think that you have gotten to the answer or close to the answer. And the question is this, why were public health authorities in the United States and acting in concert with the media so intent on discouraging Americans from treating COVID, there was this persistent and very aggressive and at times really vicious campaign to get people to stop thinking about how to treat this illness, which we were told was going to wipe out a huge percentage of humanity and just to accept the Vax. But no treatment at all, because that's fish tank cleaner. It's horse tranquilizer. What was that? And I'm going to

stand back and let you tell the story. What was that? Well, the short answer is that it was to stamp out the heresy of what is called vaccine hesitation. So vaccine hesitation, there's a huge literature on it. it's a psychological analysis of all of the factors that would cause anyone, a man, a woman, a young person, to hesitate to get the vaccine. And I want to emphasize this. You Google vaccine hesitancy, you're going to get a million search results. So what is vaccine hesitancy? And I think it's best understood, not so much in scientific terms, not an impure.

scientific terms, it's a form of heresy. And this was the thing that my co-author, Dr. Peter McCullough, and I, we had conversations about this for the last five years. Why is it heresy? And conversely, why is the vaccine a kind of, in the minds of so many people, something like a savior? Well, a liberator and a savior. And I hope I'm not out of line by showing you this on the cover of the book. I know this kind of sounds like a, you know, plugging the book, but there's a reason for this. That, do you know what that is? I don't. That is a 20 euro silver coin issued by the Vatican in the year 2022 commemorating the COVID-19 vaccine, specifically the messenger RNA vaccine. Actually? Mm-hmm. And you'll observe the traditional Catholic iconography, the three, the Trinity.

You could go into, for example, the art history museum in Vienna. There's a Raphael painting, Madonna of the Meadow. And it's this tripartite figures. I think in Madonna and the Meadow, it's the Virgin Mary, Christ, and John the Baptist. So that three, and then here you have the cross, when somebody looks at that, particularly if they're Roman Catholic, they immediately have all of the iconography and all the feelings and thoughts. That's the most resonant image possible. For sure. So if you look at the Numista catalog, the coin catalog for the Vatican, it issues different metals and coins and so forth. and so forth. It is described as a boy prepares to receive the vaccine. Not really. A boy prepares to receive the vaccine. This is his first vaccine. Sorry, excuse me. You got it. Yeah.

I mean, the grammar, the number of words, it's identical. A boy prepares to receive the Eucharist. So what Francis did with this, and I don't know if he's the guy making the decisions, is let's take the existing religious iconography, the idea of Christ, the Savior, the one that will protect you, or at least your soul. And how are we supposed to interpret this other than, well, it's the vaccine that's the Savior? So I saw that and I thought, well, that's rather remarkable. I wonder if there are any other indications of this overlaying vaccine iconography on top of existing religious iconography. And I just started finding them everywhere. Really? Well, there's that famous, not famous enough, but still famous Diego Rivera mural

that I believe hangs in Detroit painted in the 30s, which presents the vaccine as a kind of Eucharist. Right. In that iteration, I think that's a funny painting, by the way. I'm glad that you mentioned that. In that iteration, it would seem that the central figure is the Virgin Mary. She has the sort of Christ child like in a manger. There are these different animals around the manger like the nativity. What he's actually doing with that is the different animals around the the nativity scene, there's a horse, there's a cow, I think there's a goat. That's, in the way it's described, is a reference to the serum that back in those days, I think this was in the 30s. Yes. And that's a reference to the serum that is, for example, extracted from

horses with diphtheria. The cow is obviously smallpox. So it's taking the nativity scene and it's making it a celebration of this great human achievement. But they're everywhere. So, really? This kind of iconography, I mean, it's a big world, and there's a lot of images, obviously. But we found a church in South Africa, and I think it's a Roman Catholic. It might be a church of England, but I think it's a, I should remember this, but there's a, but there's a, There's a huge banner hanging from the facade that said even the blood of Christ cannot protect you, get vaccinated. And what's interesting about this, it shows. For real? For real. Speaking of heresy. And it, the subliminal quality of this piece of propaganda is remarkable because blood, it's all black block script except for the word blood. it's blood red, and then the word vaccine, the script, isn't blood red.

So you see the equivalence, but it's not really an equivalence. There's the association of equivalence, but in fact, the vaccine is more effective than the blood of Christ in protecting the beneficiary. So what is this? Well, it's shocking. I didn't know any of this. Yeah, it is shocking. Are there churches in the United States that have spread this?

Well, I've not seen anything quite that crass, that extreme. And of course, this is, you know, the context, it's South Africa. Somebody at that church seems to think you have to hit people with a sledgehammer in order to get them to overcome their vaccine hesitancy. But one of the things that Dr. McCullough and I discovered was very alarming that the so-called Biden administration was called the, I believe it was called the COVID vaccine core, which dispersed billions of dollars to various recipients, the major sports leagues, the NFL, I think major league baseball, they received just an outright bribe. I don't see how else you can care characterize this. It's just Uncle Sam is going to give you a bunch of dough, and you're going to

basically force this on your league. And there's a reason for that that we will get into. But also the mainline Episcopal Protestant evangelical churches, Roman Catholic churches, all of their clergy received money to, I don't know how else to put. it pushed the vaccine. And there were very few pastors or priests or rectors, what was it in the Episcopal? Rectors. Rectors. Who refuse. And, you know, but how, how, I mean, that right there strikes me as a, as a violation, well, of the First Amendment, which prohibits state religion, but also of their duties as Christian leaders, you can't take money from the government to push something like that.

I mean, I don't understand. Are these people still in leadership? It was only five years ago. I mean, I would, I would, I would, you're asking questions now that Peter and I have been asking for five years. And we've been profoundly puzzled by this. It's very confounding. And, you know, ultimately, well, I want to mention the NFL as well. And then the tennis league, the professional tennis.

fitness league as well. So Aaron Rogers, the Green Bay Packers quarterback, he goes on to Joe Rogan, and he describes this sort of struggle session that the NFL, that the management, the administrators of the Green Bay Packers put him through. Extreme isolation, shaming. I don't know if you saw the interview. But he's this kind of good news. nature tough guy who's just sort of speaking in a matter-of-fact way with Joe Rogan and I began to realize whether Aaron Rogers conceptualized this way or not it's very apparent he was perceived as being guilty of heresy it's like I mean the most obvious example of this is like Martin Luther in Germany. It's like you're, I think he was a Dominican or an Augustinian friar. I can't remember

which order. But he posts his thesis on the door of the castle church in Wittenborg. And it's like the game is on. Okay. You just committed heresy. You know the story. The Holy Office, the Pope himself, excommunicates him. And there's sort of no hope for him. In the case of Aaron Rogers, I believe it's the same psychology. You're a very prominent person. Now, in the case of Martin Luther, he's hanging around with, I think, a Saxon Duke, you can't do this. If you do this, because now people are looking up to you, if you commit heresy and you get away with it, the whole stamping out of vaccine hesitancy will be imperiled. Does that make sense?

It makes absolute sense. So this, you know, just under the thumb, just make your life as miserable as possible. Everything serves the imperative. The imperative. Which is the way organizations work. They all have an imperative. Usually the imperative is self-preservation, expansion, accumulation, and power, whatever. But whatever the imperative is, whatever the goal.

is everything is subservient to that that's just that's how people are that's and how organizations are it doesn't answer the question why is giving people the vaccine the only thing that matters i think that's and i'm jumping so far ahead in the story and i and i hope that you can shed some light on that question but it all goes back to the fact that public health authorities political leadership clergy everyone with any power at all in the west not just the united states decided the only thing that matters is getting this needle into the arms of our populations. That's it. That was it. Um, you know. But why? Well, let's, let's start. Sorry. I said I would shut up. I'm not. Well, this Christmas, give the gift of sleep with eight sleep. Everybody

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Let's start with the enunciation. Yes. Okay. So the enunciation happened in April of 2020. So Bill Gates makes the rounds, CNN, MSNBC. So call it the angel Gabriel. He makes the enunciation. He says, you know, the world is all, you know, turned on its head.

And, you know, we're going to have a hard time going back to normal. And the economy is, you know, a mess. And so it's a kind of depiction of the wasteland, you know, fertility, the happiness of the kingdom. It's all just going straight to hell. The only way we're going to be able to go back to normal is basically when essentially everybody on the planet gets the vaccine. Okay. So, I hope I'm not pressing on this metaphor too far, but the enunciation. So all is bleak. The world is a mess.

You know, normalcy has been completely turned on its head. We can only go back to normal. He actually uses that phrase. We can only go back to normal when everyone gets the vaccine. Well, remember, this is April of 2020. There's no, there's no. I mean, the clinical trial for the Moderna vaccine, which Moderna made with, had developed with the NIH, with Anthony Fauci's NIH, I mean, it had just gone into human trials. I say just. It actually went into human trials very quickly. We can talk about that as well.

But how does Mr. Gates already know in April that this is going to come quickly enough, A, usually takes years to develop a new vaccine? quickly enough and that it will be safe and then it will be effective. Well, the answer is he already knew it was the fate of complete. It was a foregone conclusion. It's coming. It's coming quickly. And when everybody gets it, then and only then will we be able to go back to normal. So consider all of the assumptions in this proposition. It's just perfectly astonishing. the Department of Defense and Health and Human Services in July of 2020, they say, well, we've already inked the contract. We've already signed the contract to purchase, I can't remember how many hundred million doses of Pfizer-BionTex vaccine. And you think you've already

written, like it's not, we don't have it yet. It's not been developed fully. It's not been developed fully. Human trials for phase two haven't even commenced. This is a fate of complete. It's already been decided and it's already been decided by the second richest man in the world that everybody's going to get it. So it's done. It's a done deal. So when Dr. Peter McCullough writes an editorial in the Hill in August of 2020 saying, this is just a big gamble. Our public health authorities, our military, our health and human services, they've all decided that this is coming, but it's a complete gamble. This is a new technology. It's a genetic technology. We don't know the long-term effects. We don't know how it's going to affect

children. This is a gamble. And what happens? to McCullough, when he started talking this way, same thing with Aaron Rogers, relentless persecution, relentless, fired from his job at a major university hospital, sued, all of his editorship's various academic journals pulled, his professorships, pulled, just canceled, annihilated, sued, encumbered with attorneys, you know, the whole thing. So you're probably asking, okay, where is all of this going? Let me just give you one more example to make my point. I think professional athletes are considered particularly in the eyes of young men who are potentially the most dangerous people to those in power. Like if the young guys

kind of get together and say we're not putting up with this, you know, then we've really got a problem because they're harder to control. So I think the attitude of professional sportsmen is of particular interest. So Novak Djokovic has recovered from COVID-19. He had the illness. It was symptomatic. PCR confirmed. He's done. He got three. He got three. it. It's not surprising that a man of his physical conditioning got through it without a problem, but he's done. His body has been infected. His immune system has mounted a response. It's overcome the infectious agent. Then he's recovered. There's no better immunity than that. I mean, if you want to understand how vaccines work in theory and in practice, it is to induce.

the body's immune system or stimulate the body's immune system to respond to an invading microorganism. So there's no better vaccine than actually getting through the illness. Why do we have vaccines? The thought going back to Jenner is there are diseases which are extremely dangerous, which could cause horrible disease and mortality. The idea of a vaccine is induce natural immunity without putting the recipient through the trials and the danger and possible death that he would experience if he just got the bug. Okay, does that make sense? Of course it does. So this proclamation, vaccine immunity for COVID-19, it's better than natural immunity. That is prima facie totally preposterous and absurd. No one that's ever spent any time

studying immunology would believe that for one second. So no epidemiologist could believe that. No immunologist. Well, how could you? I mean, it just on the face of it is totally preposterous. But this is what we were told. Now, it's very interesting because I am even. immediately perceive this, just from reading a textbook of immunology. So I knew, like, this is on the face of it insane. It's only been in the last few weeks. I mean, I mean the last few weeks. Here we are kind of getting... In 2025? In 2025. That Sanjay Gupta and Paul Offutt, who's a very prominent vaccinologists had made the rounds and said, you know, something

that really wasn't correct to smear natural immunity in the case of COVID-19. That technically wasn't true. How could those men still have jobs in medicine? If you watch this show, you know that we love Pure Talk. It is amazing wireless service with absolutely the best prices. And all the time, we've been telling you about Pure Talk, we've never seen an offer like the one we're about to describe.

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We definitely, plus are good looking, I will say. Those are the basics. I don't know. That's, to me, it's really, these are social questions. It's questions about the system in which we live. how could you defend a system that allows that level of dishonesty and levies no penalty against people who promote lies? I just don't understand that. Because the factual truth of the matter is secondary, perhaps even tertiary, is secondary or perhaps even a distant third place

to the orthodoxy, to maintaining the orthodoxy, right? orthodoxy. And what I want to, you know, so I'm telling you the story, I mean, realizing this is something that came about through, I mean, we're now five years into this, years of reflection and conversation and debate with my co-author, Dr. Peter McCullough. And so the question is, could it be that we're constantly being told follow the science? Science is the thing that governs rational decision making. We're always being told that. But I think the big realization is most human affairs in decision making, it's actually not outside of something like Newtonian mechanics, like the weights and balances on an aircraft or engineering a building or, you know, all of the things in which.

mechanical forces can be measured and engineered in accordance with the force that's being exerted on it. Apart from, let's keep it simple, Newtonian mechanics, there's so much in human existence, the way the body works, the mysteries of why do some people get sick, why do some people don't? Why do some people live longer than others? All of these questions, we call it medical science, but in fact, it is so multifactorial. There are so many different known and unknown factors at play that none of this can be measured. So what the medical mind has done is, I think perhaps without even being fully conscious of it, It's basically adopted orthodoxies, a doctrinal view of medicine.

And if you look at the history. Can I just ask you to pause? I hope that people watching this, if they didn't fully understand what you just said, will rewind it and listen to that again. That's the best explanation I've ever heard for what's gone wrong, what you just said right there. One starts with presuppositions. and then that's how you interpret the world. Your interpretive framework begins with your

presuppositions, and that's how you actually view the world. Now, I come out, my formal training was in philosophy, and this was, I mean, I won't bore the audience with rehashing academic philosophical debate, but there was a very, very big debate in the 18th century between what philosophers called empiricism. The foremost representative of this was David Hume. And then rationalism, the foremost representative being Descartes, René Descartes, so Emmanuel Kant, this sort of unusually scholarly guy living in Kunigsberg, Germany, which back then was part of Prussia. It was actually a Hansa city, a free city in the Hansiotic League, very, very thoughtful, contemplative guy. I mean, apparently that's kind of all he did was contemplate. And he came to the conclusion,

which he presented in a book called The Critique of Pure Reason, that in fact, it's not, it's a combination of both. In order to interpret the world, to make any sense of it at all, it's true that we have sensory data coming in, and you can pay attention to it and observe patterns. But you can't really interpret it unless you have certain categories that are already in your mind. Exactly. This was our breakfast conversation this morning, and it, you know, it has such effects on the way we live and understand things. It does. And so, you know, we live in a world now in which, I think, an increasing number of Americans, of our citizenry, those who are are awake and have some sense that paying attention, if they're paying attention, if they have been

paying attention for the last few years. And COVID-19 is an interesting story because I think what happened with COVID-19, much of the fraud that was presented to us was so extreme and so crass that it prompted, it sort of Kant talked about reading David Hume. He said it awakened to me. from my dogmatic slumber. And I like that phrase. It's like people began to think, our government is acting so weird. And people with any familiarity, for example, with immunology,

I hope I can say something slightly vulgar. They're thinking, this is such colossal bullshit that, like, what is the government doing? What is this weird priesthood of vogue? vaccinologist telling us. It's just, it just can't be true. So I think that awakened a lot of people from their dogmatic slumber about our institutions. And now we're in this weird moment where a lot of American people have started to view the U.S. government in a way that a wife with a philandering husband might start to view his representations.

It's like she's caught him 10 times running around on her. He swears up and down that he's seen the light, that he tells the truth that, you know, he's sworn off the girls. But at that point, even if he has sworn off the girls, the trust has been totally demolished. So we're in a weird, very unhappy moment right now. Well put. Weird and unhappy. that's exactly right in which we just don't believe anything that our institutions tell us and and i don't rejoice at that i don't see how this republic is going to survive if we don't have some faith

in our institutions i agree completely but the question is how can it be one back anyway that's that's another question um so um vaccines like other things that we've seen in medical history um are now an object of orthodoxy and you go to medical school you read your textbooks you attend your lectures and you were told this is the reality of this product of this technology and that's it It's axiomatic. There's no questioning it. There's no examining it. There's no critically evaluating it.

There's no even going back just to ask, well, is it optimized? I mean, so a car manufacturer could say, well, it's axiomatic that a car has to have functioning brakes. And you say, well, are they optimized breaks? Or are the materials, is the calipers? Is all of that the best brakes that we could put on a car? to make sure that a good reaction time, the driver's not drunk. If he hits the brakes, the car is going to stop. Are they the best breaks?

Well, you can't ask that about vaccines. You can't say, well, some of these vaccines, you know, they go back to the 1930s when they were developed. Are they optimized? You can't even ask that. So what is that telling us? The other thing is don't ask any questions and observe that since 1986, the vaccine manufacturers have received full liability immunity in the event that their products injure or kill. Christmas season is here.

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was a pertussis vaccine, developed encephalitis, severe brain damage, basically destroyed the child for the rest of her life. So the parents sued. to Wyeth, which had in the interim been acquired by, I'm not going to say who they'd been acquired by, I don't want to risk, you know, saying the wrong, but Wyeth had been acquired by one of the major pharmaceutical companies. The case was Broussworth versus Wyeth. And the question was, and I went to the Supreme Court, is the liability protection provided by the 1986 vaccine injury act, childhood vaccine injury act, is that constitutional. So the court ruled in favor of Wyeth. And Mr. and Mrs. Brousselaith were told, you know, sorry, there's nothing

that can be done. The act is upheld. But there was a dissenting justice. It was Justice Sotomayor. and she wrote a dissenting opinion, and it's an excellently reasoned dissenting opinion. It shows how far the liberal mind has come since 2010. She writes the most reasonable, sensible dissenting view of vaccines, and what she says is liability, product liability being subject to tort litigation is the primary incentive for optimizing the safety and the efficacy of the product. If you just tell somebody, oh, looks great, you know, it's been around for 30 years, cool, everyone has to get it, zero liability.

What is the human nature being what it is? What's the incentive to improve it? There is any. None. I mean, what are we to expect the CEO of Pfizer, which has very long civil and criminal rap sheet for fraud, for concealing bad safety data, for overstating efficacy. Are we to believe that suddenly the corporate board of Pfizer is going to develop such a strong conscientious approach to business?

They're just going to say, well, we don't have any liability, but I think we ought to just get busy optimizing it anyway it's it's not a it's not a realistic no it's not it's not people respond to the systems in which they live and work so um i'm not even blaming fiser though you know obviously i'm opposed to fiser on every level but it's not fyser's fault no that that's the law passed by congress right right so i mean this is our story um we started off um uh a first phase of this was something that hit Dr. McCullough so hard. And there's an interesting coincidence here. I had heard about him. I had heard about his Senate testimony on November the 19th, 2020. A very good man, Senator Ron Johnson organized Senate testimony, a Senate hearing

to discuss the question of early treatment. Is there anything? with a good safety profile that could possibly help to keep people from falling badly ill going to hospital and possibly dying in hospital. That's what doctors do. Is there anything that we could do to help? Now the first principle is safety, but what these guys were looking at were FDA-approved drugs with some of the best safety profiles, you know, in the business, hydroxychloroquine. It was FDA approved in 1956. There's a wide range of indications for it. The most common one in the States for decades was rheumatoid arthritis. People had taken hydroxychloroquine against rheumatoid arthritis for a decade and suddenly we're told that it's

dangerous. So it was actually the eye doctors, the retina doctors, that, first recognize that's not true because one of the things that retina doctors have to look out for is if someone has been taking hydroxychloroquine every day for over a decade for treating rheumatoid arthritis sometimes retinal doctors will see a toxicity that starts to affect the retina okay every day for over 10 years, we're talking a five-day course of hydroxycore. So this is, again, it's, this is absurd. And one of the things that I think you've talked about, you've touched on in your other programs, is a tyrant will often, and where tyranny comes from in the human mind

and how it develops and takes over institutions. is a subject we could discuss. But one of the things the tyrant does is insists on total absurdities. And what happens to the people is they either accept that it's patently ridiculous or they become so demoralized that the government is making this assertion that they just give up. It's like, okay, you know, I guess I'm just going to have to tune all of this out and, you know, go surfing in Mexico or something. Like, just forget it. It's, and I think that that's actually intentional. So I don't really like partisan politics, but remember that this

is happening during the Biden administration when the first vaccine mandates get underway. So you look at the Biden administration. And starting with the president himself, I mean, we're told that he's sharp as attack. So either you come to accept that and you think, well, you know, I guess he's, you know, he's sharp as a tag. I guess. I mean, that's what we're being told. Or you're so demoralized by that monstrous absurdity that you just say, I guess we're done. I mean, I mean, I guess the Republic is finished, that there are people apparently behind the scenes pulling the strings, the marionettes that run the show. I don't know who the hell they are. I don't need to run a foul of them. So I'm done. I'm checking out. And I think this vaccine

ideology and religion that has been erected, it's a species of this just demoralizing anybody that asks questions. We're going to eliminate the inquisitive mind from the public forum. And it's also, I agree with everything you're saying, and I think it's profound.

It's not just on display during COVID. It's just like a feature of tyranny always and everywhere. It's the basis of the novel 1984. But I think it's also worth saying that when you participate in these humiliation rituals

and when you go along with it, you change. There's something about you that dies. For sure. You are diminishing. and you know you hope it's not permanent but it seems to be but whatever permanent or not it's absolutely real and people who went along with that are different people well this takes us to the big theme so i did i did want to quickly mention jockovic just to give you an even more luminous

illustration of this so he gets through covid it's PCR confirmed he's fine the australian authorities give him the green light. They say you can get on a plane and fly across the Pacific to Sydney to participate in the 2022 Australian Open. Okay, well, you know, you've flown to Australia. I mean, it's kind of, it's not exactly the most pleasant experience, even if you're in first class. It's very long. It's so long. And you're going through all of these time zones and your internal clock is turned on its head. And I mean, it's kind of a rough voyage. It's not what Captain Cook went through, but it's, you know, it kind of sucks. So just consider the psychology of this. Your professional tennis player, you've been given the green light,

because you're COVID recovered, you can compete. And you had to go through a bunch of hurly-burly in order to get to that point. You get on the plane, you relax. You take a deep breath. You start thinking about your game like what are you going to do when you get to sydney you know who are you competing against and this is what's running through your mind you then arrive in sydney you get off to clear passport control and customs and your pull decided and they say you know something um we've decided to resent that special dispensation to you you're going to have upon landing one landing, you're going to have to go into quarantine. So I don't see any way of characterizing this apart from sadism. That was a sadistic action. That was turning the screws on

him. And then one of these people that participates in this, I remember one of the most revolted I've ever felt was this BBC reporter in the most condescending, smarmy, repugnant way, then does a struggle session interview with Djokovic. Are you really going to stake your entire career, you could be the greatest ever. You could be the goat, Chokovic. Are you really prepared to set all of that aside just so you don't have to receive the vaccine? Bowed down before me and all of this will be yours. It's true. Well, there you go. All right. So you're seeing where this is headed. Yes. I saw it then. Bowed down before me and all of this will be yours. Right. This is totally the oldest offer there is.

So, you know, I grew up in the Episcopal Church. I didn't really take religion seriously. Well, it's not a serious religion. I grew up in it, too, I know. I started getting interested in kind of as a scholarly, you know, the Hellenic Greek in which the Bible's written. I kind of came out of more from a philosophical approach. And the deeply religious concepts were something I hadn't spent a lot of time with. This contrasted me with Dr. McCullough. He's a very religious person. And we're having dinner one night at his house. And he says, John, how do you explain this? He said, I don't think, I mean, all these guys like money. Everybody likes money's fun, whatever.

But I don't think money is sufficient to explain this. I agree completely. He said there must, there must be something else. This is the fabled red pill when you realize it's not really about bribery. I mean, that is heavy. Well, let's put it this way. If you trickle down the pyramid, I think a lot of your infantry, they're like, oh, You pay off the guards. Yeah, it's fine. I could use that, you know. But you start getting to the top, you know, to the inner kind of prosidium of this thing.

Are they bribing Bill Gates? Right. Right. Exactly. So, but what is it? Like, like what, like, what are we bumping up against? Exactly. And we can't quite see it. I mean, I've been obsessed with this for five years. All this other stuff is. These are just symptoms of something very deep. It's true. So I am, my first interview with Peter McCalla, buddy mine has a studio down not too far from the hospital where he was at the time, vice president of internal medicine.

Now, he was on the way out, like they were about to scoot him out. No, actually, he'd already lost his job as vice president of internal medicine. medicine at Baylor University. He then got a job at what was called Heart Place, which happened to be on the Baylor campus, but a different institution. He was about to lose his job at Heart Place. But at the moment, he was still there as a cardiologist. And he came down to this little studio that belongs to a friend of mine. And we shot this beautiful interview, the lighting, the camera, the audio. I mean, it was just absolute prone. And I removed myself from the interview. It's just like this kiaroscuro lighting on Dr. McCullough. He's wearing a

beautifully tailored suit. And he was just on it. I mean, every question cites all of the peer-reviewed literature, you know, is totally circumspectant. Every remark, every no speculation, just the facts supported by the evidence cited. I put it on my YouTube, channel. And the studio, the guy that ran the studio, he had some friends in the independent media that helped to kind of get this thing going. I mean, he distributed the tape to the guys at the blaze, the guys that, I can't remember, a bunch of independent media podcasters and networks and stuff. So this thing starts to go viral. And I'm thinking, well, this is great. I mean, he spoke very cautious.

and he spoke very well. And about four hours later, YouTube takes it down with no explanation. So I called Dr. McCullen and I said, we've just bumped into something that is really big and it's really dark. It's like a black hole. Like you, you know how you see a black hole in space? it's actually light is bending into it. You can't see it through an optical telescope, but what you can see is that the gravitation of the black hole is so strong that it's actually warping time space so that light is bending into it. I said, it's like we've just bumped into a black hole. We can't see it, but we know it's there. What the hell is it? And so this is actually what began the discussion. And ultimately, I don't see any other conclusion that's plausible. And I'm

not saying this is the conclusion. I try and stay within the realm of physics and empirical observation. So I'll ask you, how else could you explain it other than what you just said a moment ago? This appears to be... No, you go from physics to metaphysics, the more you think about it. That's it. So that's what I told Peter. I said, I think we're going to have to leave the realm of physics and enter the realm of metaphysics, even though it's something I'm not comfortable doing. Exactly how I think if you grew up Episcopalian, like the one thing you don't want to talk

about is, you know, they're supernatural. You just don't. It's true. It's deemphasized. It's embarrassing. There's a kind of social stigma to it. were you handling snakes in your trailer park? I mean, there's just a whole suite of disincentives to even think about stuff like that. It's kind of interesting. But I feel you on

this, yes. Well, so I grew up in the Bible Belt. I grew up in Dallas, Texas. And this was the era in the 80s of a guy named Robert Tilden. He was this completely bizarre charlatan who would speak in tongues, and it would always end every episode by saying, by the way, if you send me a check and close a prayer with it, I'll see to it that your prayer is answered. Now, the bigger the check, you know, I'm not saying that, you know, my intercession is necessarily going to be affected by the sum, but, you know, it might well be. So this is the era in which, in which I just complete. True corruption. Yeah. Just total charlatans, false prophets, wolves and sheep's clothing, guys who themselves weren't in control of their, you know,

personal lives, kind of masking all of this, hiding it from themselves with this embrace of religiousity. So, and I remember my mother who grew up in the Episcopal church just saying, this is just the way these guys wear their religion on their sleeves, it's, it's just so unseemly. And so this is what I grew up in. I know precisely what you're talking about. Yeah. So not our kind of people. No. So I thought, all right, you know, kind of kicking and screaming, well, let's enter the realm of metaphysics. So what I did, was when I was in graduate school, just because he was canonical, I read the novels of Dostoevsky. Oh, yes. So I was like, I'm going to have to go back. You read the Grand Inquisitor in the

middle of the Brothers Kay. All right, so there it is. Yeah, you read that and you're like, first of all, this is a truly deep culture. This is not a gas station with nuclear weapons. No. I mean, this is like, wow no and remember remember he himself had done 10 years a hard time he faced a false execution right yeah right i remember reviewing that thinking god that's hard it's like eight months of solitary then talk about sadism like talk about jojovich is you know flying first class to sydney and then he arrives and it's like okay we have something in store for you it's like it's like you're going to face death, and then it's called off at the last second. It's just terror. Oh, after, you know, marching you all the way from Siberia of Moscow, it takes like two months,

and then you get there, like, we're going to execute you, and then, oh, just kidding. No, it's heavy. And then, you know, we were talking earlier, like, the, the, just the misery of being separated from women for months on. And he's then sent to six years of military service in some provincial town and site. It's like we're just not going to end the punishment for attending some liberal, you know, you know, group of guys talking about the latest ideas out of Germany. Like, we are going to make you really suffer for this. So it's not that, it's not that Dostoevsky hadn't experienced this on his person. Like he had.

He knows what he's talking. talking about. Okay. So the Grand Inquisitor. So for those of your audience that are this is what I was going to talk. So you're a step ahead of me. So Eloysha, the youngest boy of the brothers Karamazov. This is a scene within the novel. Right. Right. So he's talking with his brother Ivan, who is the sort of rational imperialist, empiricist, who is reading all these ideas out of France and Germany. I mean, I think it's probably around the year 1860. Exactly. So, Ivan says, I have a story for you. And I think it's kind of charming. I think it's kind of original. It has a certain flair. And it's almost in a playful way. He says, so,

second coming of Christ, he drops down into Sevilla, Spain in the midst of the Inquisition, the dark days of the Inquisition. He's walking down the street around the old Sevilla Cathedral. He's sort of blessing people and groups are gathering around him and, oh my goodness, you know, he's returned in Sevia, Spain, during the Inquisition of all places. Suddenly the Grand Inquisitor himself is drawn out of his office, goes down to the square in front of the cathedral, and says, arrest that man arrest him arrest him he's an imposter so this is where it has such literary power so

the inquisitor puts jesus in jail and he comes into the cell and he looks at him and he says is it really you and jesus sort of looks at him and i think he just simply answered yes or nods he says it really is you this is this is just remarkable he says but i always kind of thought this might happen and so i have a message for you i cannot allow you to come walking around on earth like talking to people he said it's it's not it's not something the we, the church, or the rulers of the church, can allow. And he says, and I'm going to be fair, and I'm going to tell you why. He says, do you remember back when you were presented with these temptations by the opposer? Do you remember? Yeah. He says, you see, what he offered to you

was the ability to assume responsibility for all of these people to make rocks into bread and water and to wine and all you had to do was just make the deal and you could have then assumed all worldly power in order to just take care of these fools these humans with all of their flaws, and their ignorance and their limitations. You could have just taken care of them, but instead you chose to ask of them to maintain their responsibility and their free will. This was an absurd decision that you made.

Humanity is not capable of assuming this burden. You asked too much. So what we are going to do is we, are going to do the deal that you should have taken. We're going to take care of them. We're going to make sure that they're provided for. And in return, they shall give us their obedience. Because it's obedience that we need in order to run this ship properly. So that's why I'm arresting you, and that's why you're not going to see the light of day under my watch. So, it's a great scene what do you have to say to that so in the scene the grand inquisitor jesus stands up

he walks up to the inquisitor and he kisses him and it's like it's such a cool scene because this is an old vain cynical guy he's just so accustomed to everything going his way he doesn't believe in anything anymore. But that kind of melts his heart a little bit. And so he leaves, the inquisitor then leaves the cell and leaves it open. So anyway, Ivan says, you know, what do you think of my little story? And Aloysha then says, it's kind of interesting. Let me think about it for a moment. I'm happy to see you, brother. I think I have to go. And then Aloysha gives Ivan a kiss.

And Ivan says, that's plagiarism. Anyway, I love the scene, but why am I getting kind of a model and telling this? There's a reason. I think this is a very plausible explanation. Those who rule this world, there seems to be a perception. there are certain things that are non-negotiable that we just won't accept any resistance and one of those non-negotiable things is apparently vaccines everybody has to get them no one can question them he who questions them will be relentlessly persecuted like a heretic is there you've made the case for

that, I believe every word that you have said, I think the last five years stands as testimony to the truth of what you said. But we still are alighting the core question, which is, is there something about vaccines that makes them, you know, really important, the most important thing to the people run the world. Because it is the world. It's not, it's the world. It's the whole world. Right. So what, and whatever this thing is about vaccine, scenes, has been noted for close to 100 years. I mean, Diego Rivera painted that mural. And what's interesting about it is a funny picture. I agree. And Jay Rivera had very little talent. By the way, I think the Christ child is a self-portrait. I'm sure that it is, and he's a

ludicrous figure and, you know, got more acclaim than he deserves. But he was, if nothing else, sort of an indicator of what the people in charge thought. He was their sort of pet muralist, right? So they understood that 90 years ago that vaccines were at the center of some, like, what is it about vaccines? Is it the piercing of the skin, the blood? I mean, is it a kind of ritual? I mean, well, clearly it is, but is there something inherent about the vaccines? I think that the entire edifice of our everything that pertains to public health policy, which includes the ability to invoke a public health emergency, to quarantine people, to put them under house arrest, and effect under house arrest. I mean, I remember I went to this March and Washington, D.C. in January of 2020, opposing the vaccine

mandates. And I wasn't allowed to enter a restaurant in D.C. I couldn't stay in a hotel in D.C. I had to stay in Virginia. So it's a way, I think, this is just one way of looking at it. If you refuse to get injected, I mean, it's kind of the ultimate. People could say, well, if you come to work, you have to wear a uniform. Or, I mean, there are these different sort of restrictions on personal freedom and personal space that we sort of accept is just sort of part of a reasonable set of expectations to participate in institutional life. But getting injected and you don't know what's in the injection. You don't really know anything about it. I mean, when you go to get your vaccine or your child vaccinated, the package insert isn't presented to you. There is no

informed consent. I mean, it's just the pediatrician says you got to get this for your kid to attend school. So here we go. You've, you know, free will contemplation of the reality of the, it's just not even in it. You just agree. So I think it's the ultimate form of obedience. I mean, what could be, I mean, well, consider that if there's a vaccine mandate, we can lock you up. We can shuffle you off to some shitty hotel in Sydney for two weeks. We could prevent you from playing in the tournament. So it's the ultimate method of control. So you're answering the question, I think, by saying it almost doesn't matter what's in the vaccines or not.

It's not inherent to the chemical formulation of the product. It's not that MRNA technology, whatever, its effects are. that wasn't necessarily the point. It was the ritual of forcing people to do something against their will without their consent. And once you've done that, you are in control. It's a rape, basically. Are a kind of inverted communion? You have to take the communion or you can't be a part of this congregation. Well, in communion itself, I'll say this is a believing Christian, is not, I mean, right? So Jesus said, this is my body and blood shed for you for the other sins.

Take this in the remembrance of me. The human mind cannot understand what that means, but we accept it. We accept it. Right. And I think the Catholics call that a holy mystery maybe, or something to that effect, meaning that the fact that you don't understand it is part of the point, or acknowledging that you can't understand it is part of the point. And therein lies its power, right?

It has immense symbolic power. And I think that you participate in communion and there is a mystery. There's debates and theological surrogies, is trans substantiation or just symbolic? The thing about a vaccine is it's injected into your deltoid muscle and you don't know what it is. Now, what was particularly, so it's the ultimate in terms of your physical body, never mind the symbolic value of this. It's meaning. And I think meaning is perhaps the ultimate thing that we're seeking in this life. But this is a direct injection into your physical body and that of a very small developing child.

So what was really spooky about the COVID-19. vaccine. And remember, there were different iterations of this. There were attenuated vaccines. There were inactivated vaccines. That's to say, SARS-CoV-2, cultured, and then attenuated or inactivated. But what these guys really, really were interested in was this gene, this genetic product, messenger RNA. And I think this is really important. And we go into this in our book, A messenger RNA, the actual molecule, was discovered in the 60s in France. And there's something very important about this that I think goes to the absolute heart of scientists, the longstanding dream.

It's the myth of Prometheus or Lucifer. And I actually think that Lucifer should be viewed in some ways as a kind of kind of, he's a close stepbrother of Prometheus in some interpretation. He's a bringer of light. You know, if it weren't for Lucifer, you'd have this dumbass guy and girl sitting around eating mangoes or something, and they'd never awaken to the reality of the world. They would just be stuck kind of, I mean, it sounds kind of nice, just kind of perpetually in love, walking around the garden. But the idea of Lucifer is, no, you have a brain. Use it. Explore. Discover. You know, learn about your limitations. Maybe you can even transcend your

limit, your limitation. So I think that's the idea of Lucifer, the bringer of light. Now, I'm not saying that Lucifer is a great guy. I'm saying this is, I think, part of this scientific archetype to transcend the limitations of our mortality. So now you ask, what about these guys in Silicon Valley, the masters of the universe now? I mean, the electronic world that we wouldn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it weren't for the great lords of technology in Palo Alto or Menlo Park or whatever. I think that a lot of those guys, you might say, and I don't say this to criticize them. I just think it's a description. You might say that they're suffering from Luciferian pride. It's pride that I have

discovered the way the universe works. You know, I can take electrons and create a picture and send to pick it's almost like magic and i actually know a professional electrician and you can ask him about electricity and um and you know i'll ask him a complex question and he'll say well um i would characterize that is that's a fm frequency i was like well um what do you mean fm um like frequency modulation he says no that's what we call an electricity fucking magic i mean there's certain things about our use of electricity that it is just it's just remarkable so and but it's opaque even to the people who know the most about it right so this was actually and i went and look this up because i'm very interested in electricity and what exactly it is and there was a huge debate

in the United States at the time of electrification. Not like TVA electrification, but 19th century. Edison populizes the light bulb. All of a sudden, it's amazing, no more oil lamps. We can stop killing the sperm whales,

all this stuff. It's like great. But there were people in the United States, sane people, and a lot of them are Christian clergy, who were asking questions, and you can look it up. Like, what is this exactly?

And of course, none of them ever got a straightforward answer. And to this day, no one can really answer that question. What is this exactly? Because no one really knows exactly what it is. I'm not attacking electricity. I'm just noticing.

And I just find it so interesting that you can base your whole civilization on this thing, but nobody, even like a master electrician, can explain every part of it, right? There's... So who's in charge? The reason that's interesting

is because if you don't fully understand something, are you really its master? Right. Right. right right so but this idea yes we don't and and i think so i'm going to come back to messenger RNA but but what i want to say about the great lords of tech is um i recently had the great privilege of meeting one personally and i really liked him he was a brilliant man a stunning intellect um and i've loved

long admired him. It was a confidential meeting, but I have long admired him. I've read his biography. I think he's a miraculous guy, I mean, in terms of intellect. I suspect I know him. Yep. But what struck me during our conversation in which he couldn't be, couldn't have been more gracious and polite, was, and this is my subjective perception. And I was with Dr. McCullough in the meeting. There's nothing we could possibly tell this man that he doesn't already know. He already knows everything. It doesn't matter how much Dr. McCullough has studied and observed and has worked 16-hour days examining all this. This very distinguished, very impressive, very impressive man. He already knows it. Okay, now I know who you're talking about. Because they're like one person I know

like this. He already knows everything. And one of the things he knows is that vaccines are safe and effective. Yeah. So, again, we're back to these axiomatic things. And you believed that he sincerely believed that. I think he did. I mean, I think he has some interest. in believing that. I mean, it's not just, it's probably not just intellectual intrigue that has caused him to believe this.

Can I say one thing about that? It's not, it's, it's too simple to say that when people have conflicts like the one you're describing, if in fact that's a real conflict, it's too simple to say it's only about the money. There is a phenomenon

that I have lived personally over decades where if you're too close to something, and you're benefiting from it, and you like it. It's not, it's not, it's not about money. If you like it, if you like the world you live in, which I did, it's very hard, maybe impossible to see its real character. It's true. You're, you're in it, you're swimming in it.

And you know everyone in it, and you like them. Yeah. And it's not just like they're paying you to say nice things about them as you like these people. They can't be part of something. You just, whatever they're part of, you can't fully see it. That's all I'm saying. You can't. And, you know, something that has been a matter of great controversy and strife and anger and high emotion that has come up in public discourse recently is the ancient anthropological constant of tribalism, tribalism. And if you're not a tribalist, if you don't see the world in terms of tribe, then, and I beg your pardon for being academic again, but I think Wittgenstein, the great linguistic philosopher, would have said, you don't understand the conversation.

In other words, tribalists, guys who hate each other and are involved in reprisals and this kind of, um, this kind of zero-sum, you know, race to the bottom. Albanian mountain feuds. Yeah. Serbs versus Croatians. Exactly. Yeah. So I went sailing down on the Dalmatian coast, pulled into a gas station just north of

Dubrovnik to get some gas for my car. And I walked into this gas station. And the whole gas station was like a shrine to, the villainy of the Serbs. There's a Croatian guy just north of Dubrovnik Croatia. Like Slobodan Milosevic posters or something? Just, well, okay. To be fair, some lunatic Serbian artillery guy

had actually direct hit on his gas station. So, okay, all right, I get it. You know, back during the Yugoslav war. and why these jerks decide to shell de Brovnik? It's like, what of them? I mean, it's like, what are you guys? Clearly, these guys had just completely lost their minds. Why are you shelling DeBrovnik?

Why did you just, okay, a gas station. Okay, all right. So just blow the shit out of that gas station. Yeah. So, you know, here we are like 16, no, 26 years later. And the whole gas station is a shrine to Serbian villainy. So can you imagine every day walking in to your place of work and there is everywhere on the wall

a reminder of the injustice that you suffered 26 years ago at the hands of the Serbs? So I just, this was fascinating. I said, I got to talk to this dude. So he spoke broken German, some of the Croatians from the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. still speak a bit of German. And I said, why do you believe that they shelled Dubrovnik? Like, that doesn't really make sense. Like, what is the strategic value of shelling de Brovnik? It's just like a world heritage site, you know? It's right. He says, he looks at me. He says, what reason? He says, there is no reason in these monsters. They're in

insane. They're deranged. They're demonic. There's no reason in any, and he's furious. It's just, can you imagine? I can picture this scene, yeah. So, it's hard for me, somebody who's, I don't have a tribal allegiance. I mean, I, you could say, well, you know, I have a kind of sentimental affection for my English ancestors. Right. You know, I think, I related to Sir John Leak was, I think he was Queen Anne's admiral during the War of Spanish Secession. And there's a book about Sir John. And, you know, I've read the book and it's like, well, he sounds like a cool guy. But the trials and travails of his struggle in the war of Spanish secession, I mean, it's like, who cares? Yeah. So I can't get into the internal logic of this

conversation about, you know, this tribe did this and then that and then we're back and forth and who killed more than the other guy and would you say it's true that people without a tribal identity are at grave disadvantage against those with a powerful tribal identity because they don't understand what they're what they're looking at at all. You don't understand what you're looking at. I don't understand. I totally agree. I have exactly the same views. Maybe it's the Episcopal Church taught us this or something, but yes. Well, I remember before my grandfather died, he fought in Italy, he, you know, slept on the ground for two years, and he slung it out with Jerry in Italy. I mean, like hot combat. And my great uncle, Bobby Weitzel, was killed in Italy, and it was very traumatic to my great-grandmother.

but the thing that so and my great-grandmother by the way her family was originally from Germany so there was this kind of you know confusion about that and I remember talking to my grandfather and he said one of the most disturbing things I remember he said we there's a machine gun nest and we kind of were able to maneuver and get close and somebody tossed a grenade into it and the grenade went off and then the guns fell silent and he said so then we entered the machine gun nest and the soldier manning it

was just a boy he didn't even have a beard he was like a 14 year old and he said the Germans were moving all of their manpower to the eastern front always yeah to to fight the russians and so they had just

pulled back these positions in northern Italy, north of Florence, and they're very clever. He said, they kind of set these things up where just a little kid could operate it. He said, and they had these fascinating little maps, and then you could actually, with a lever, you could identify with binoculars, where are the Americans, and then you could move a corresponding lever to put the gun, to cite the gun. He said, it's very ingenious. He said, but I remember thinking, this is just friggin' awful. It's awful.

It's like a little kid. So, and this was my... Only the United States would do that, though. I think, this might be wrong, but it's correct-ish. I think in 1941, December, when the war started, the largest ethnic group in the United States was German. I think that was the, if you ask people, wait, what's your ancestry? I think German was number one.

It may have been number two after English, but it was right up there. And the whole country, so what other country, which is fine, I'm very anti-Hitler, okay? But where else in history could you say to a population go fight your distant relatives in the land of your ancestors and have them go do it? Only in a country where tribal identity had been discouraged to the point where it disappeared. Completely, completely. Right. And by the way, that also happened in the First World War, where millions. of Americans of German ancestry, changed their last names, called themselves Dutch, the

Pennsylvania Dutch are obviously German, but they were so ashamed of their own tribe that they pretended they weren't part of that tribe, and I'm not criticizing it. I'm just saying, I don't think that's ever happened in history. No, no. The American adventure or project has been unbelievably successful until, until, I don't know, 2000. So why do I mention war and tribalism and all of this? If you're in the vaccine ideology and you've completely 100% been indoctrinated in it, I can't talk to you. It's like you're in another tribe.

And I think that is perhaps the point of the whole thing. let's divide, let's stamp out vaccine hesitancy, and then those who take the communion, who receive the boy who receives, those who receive it will then be permanently separate from those who are hesitant and refuse. So it's like you've just created a tribal identity. And he who hesitates, he who refuses, well, if he's in Washington, D.C., the nation's capital, he can't stay in a hotel. He can't have a steak dinner with Senator Johnson near Capitol Hill because he's not vaccinated. So I think that's what this is about. But I want to get, we might be running short on time, but I do want to talk about

messenger RNA. So this Promethean or Luciferian intellect. and the pride that is taken in that, there's no grander expression of this than messenger RNA. So the original idea was, well, if you think about messenger RNA, there's a trinity of the way proteins, the building blocks of life, or proteins. Okay. So there's replication, which is a DNA strand replicates itself. there's transcription, which is the DNA using RNA, which is one-half DNA strand, to send information outside of the cell nucleus into the external part of the cell, the sort of watery part of the cell, RNA then instructs, that's called transcription, and then translation, that RNA instruction, then tells the cell what to do.

And I mean, it's like you're talking about electricity. I mean, if you start studying molecular biology, you think, oh, my God, like, this is so fascinating. It's so interesting. Like, in Francis Collins, who's the head of the NIH when COVID came, he wrote a book in 2006. Do you remember this book? Of course not. No, I was not even aware he existed until COVID. I mean, all of this went way under my radar.

So Francis Collins wrote a book called The Language of God. And what he claimed was, with the human genome project, with all the advances that had been made in understanding molecular biology, DNA, RNA, messenger RNA, that scientists were reading the code in which God had created life. So you're probably wondering why I mentioned the Silicon Valley guys. So code. You code things. You enter a code. You transmit the code. And then that initiates an operation, an instruction to do something.

And we're headed this way in a big way with artificial intelligence. But the idea is it's like God is a divine coder. And using nucleic acid, he coded. up there in the celestial, I don't know, the celestial laboratory, he coded life. And now the human intellect has reached a point where we can read the code. Okay, so that's interesting. Okay, so I read the book, God's language. That's cool.

I mean, maybe we're reading God's language. I think Einstein said, I want to know God's thoughts. Okay. So far so good. But what these MRNA vaccine guys did, they went one step further. We're not only going to read the language of God, we're going to start writing in the language of God using messenger RNA. We will now use pseudo-eurodinated messenger RNA to instruct the body to produce the proteins,

the building blocks of life, that we want it. to produce what could go wrong what could go wrong i think now it's just good to interject in one sentence and remind everyone that adam and eve were not expelled from the garden for ignorance right well just the opposite well so but but but now okay i'm glad that you that you raised this because now we come to a point that i think lies at the heart of the human condition um how do we recognize so we are curious i mean when I was a boy, my mother said, you know, your problem is, you're so curious. Like, you just, like, if somebody tells you you can't look at something, the first thing you do is look at it.

Somebody tells you don't go onto that piece of property. Well, then, you know, next minute, you're climbing over the gate. I mean, it's like, what is it about telling us? You can't look into that. Yeah. Just one piece of fruit you can't have. That's it. Otherwise, you're set. It's like, it's perfect, but you just can't have this one thing. But consider the contradiction of that. Because to go back to the Grand Inquisitor by Ivan Karamazov, it's a paradox because in a way what the Grand Inquisitor is suggesting is just give us all of your free will and we'll take care of you. It's like we're going back to the prelapsarian state where you're just taken care of.

You don't have to ask any questions. You don't have to try and figure anything out. You're just told the way the world is and you accept and you obey. So this is the tension in being human. And the messenger RNA stuff where the whole thing becomes so fantastically absurd, and this is another really important point that we try to convey in our book. There's so much these guys don't know. so they get these little glimmers of insight it's like holy toledo can you believe can you believe

what we just observed where it becomes very childish and very intellectually challenged is the next thought oh now we've figured it all out now we can assume the helm so why do you just on the face of it that's preposterous like you just figured something out you just got a glimpse of something you need to recognize what that's telling you is how much you don't know you don't know that there's so many things you don't know but the irony is that the scientific process science is designed as a counterbalance to those very human instincts i know something therefore i'm an expert that's called hubris and the process itself is again designed to rein that in to show you how much you don't know that that's the whole thing so how did that not work my my favorite um medical

historian is oliver wendell holmes senior a very very interesting guy and he once made an observation which i've thought god if you could just frame that put it on the wall of every library excuse me, of every laboratory. He said, science is the topography of ignorance. Exactly. From a few elevated points, we triangulate vast spaces of unknowns. So that is a person who's actually using his head. He's actually thinking. He's not just saying, oh, look how smart we are. Look at all of this brilliant stuff that we just discussed. covered. Now let's start making a thousand assumptions that are totally unwarranted. I'm going to ask you one last specific question about messenger RNA. So I think as you said a number of

times we don't really know its effects and we don't know certainly where it's going long term. But the one thing that strikes me we should be very concerned about is the possibility that it changes people in a way that they pass on to their children, that it changes their genetic code, because that's, of course, destroying humanity as we know it. Is there any indication that that is happening or could happen? Yes. There are a few things that I would say to that. The first highly alarming thing is there is evidence that it actually impairs fertility.

So that's perhaps a paradox. It's actually preventing you from passing anything on to your kids because you're not having them. So that's one thing. And there is, there's real evidence of that. Yes. Yes. So how in the world is it still legal in the United States to inject people with that? Well, fertility is just the start of it.

How about? That's all I need to know. That's all I need to know. And that's almost enough to make you think, you know, we have to kind of, we have to, we have to stop this now. For sure. Well, Peter McCullough's been proclaiming this for a while. No, but for real. Like, you can't have that. Right. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm trying my emotions are under control. But yeah, that's really...

I'll tell you something else when you talk about young people, so fertility. In July of 2021, the New England Journal of Medicine, to their credit, published a peer review, case study of a young man, an adolescent boy, who developed myocarditis, inflammation of the heart. Consider the symbolism of this. A young, fit boy develops myocarditis, inflammation of the heart shortly after receiving a messenger RNA COVID shot. I actually had dinner with Dr. McCullough that night. He was very alarmed by this. He said, you know, I mean, I'm been practicing cardiology for 30 years, I very, very rarely see myocarditis. And this, this preposterous assertion that, well, it's just a little bit of heart damage. He said,

this is ridiculous. You need your heart to keep beating every second or millisecond for the rest of your days. That poor muscle, you can't afford to damage it. There's no minor damage. There's no minor damage to your car. No, no. So he said, this is really a disaster. And so what is the, the reasonable thing to automatically recognize in the summer of 21? It's very simple. We already know we're over a year into this that young athletes are not at risk of severe COVID illness. It's just, they're just not. It's, it has zero statistical significance as a purported threat to the health of young athletes. And one might, I might add, you know, young athletes are kind of the hope. I mean, they're sort of, not that they're athletes, but that they're young and strong and have

full possession of their abilities and faculties. And like, those are the young fellows that are going to perpetuate our civilization. That's our country. That's our country. Precisely. So why would you do anything? Why would you take any unnecessary risk that could damage young people? It's it. Okay, you could say in a nursing home, um, our risk benefit analysis is that, you know, take the risk with the vaccine because these people are very frail if they get, and we could argue that. Maybe we should have a just, but just, but just, to say all the young boys and little girls should get this shot even though they're not at risk of COVID-19.

It's the opposite. It's the most unnatural thing ever, because the progression of nature is really simple. You go through phases in life, and at a certain point, that's all you care about. I'm only 56. I already don't care about me at all, and I mean that. Not because I'm so selfless, I'm not selfless, but because that's just, it's just natural. At a certain point, you pivot from work. worrying about you to worrying about your children and your grandchildren, what comes after you.

That's, I mean, that's the life cycle. Animals are this way. This is the most natural thing ever. And when that's subverted, then you know it's from hell. It's true. So it gets, it gets dark. So, Dr. It gets darker? I don't know if I get handled it. I mean, it's, that's dark, but it's about to get darker. So the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, who's also an adjunct professor at the Harvard Medical School. So in terms of institutional prestige, it doesn't get any more prestigious. I mean, you're talking about number one public medical professional probably on earth. Professor at Harvard, editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine. I mean, that's like the Pope. His name is Dr. Eric Rubin.

and he was also an advisor on the FDA deliberative committee to decide whether we should approve the messenger RNA COVID-19 vaccine for young people. I think the original decision is people under the age of 18. We have the transcript of the deliberative committee meeting. And the question is, should the FDA, and I'm the, in effect, he's the most, prestigious advisor in the room, should it be approved for young people? So this is his reasoning. And I just quote the transcript. Okay. So the question is, do we approve this for young people? He says two things. First of all, the risk-benefit analysis is different from what it is for older people. And he doesn't need to spell this out. Everybody understands. Older people seem to be at

greater risk of getting into trouble with the illness itself. So, yeah, we have a different, you know, risk benefit profile when it comes to young people. Now, that's a euphemism. I mean, there's a big difference in the risk benefit profile. Young people aren't at risk of this at all. And we have something else. We have a signal. He said, I'm not sure if it's 100% real, but I think that it is. He's referring to myocarditis and young people. So the signal, I believe, is real. So you have a bad safety signal. And then you have, in terms of the risk of the illness for young people, it's nil.

So he said, so it's a tough decision. But I think in the final analysis, we won't really know until we just start giving it. Ruben said that. Those are his exact words. So how was he punished for that? that's the orthodoxy he's so not punished no no i mean it's like how could you show your face after saying something like that i don't know as like someone atop you know the public health infrastructure in america how could you and so no so there was no shame professional shame attached

to him for that well he wasn't sanctioned by anybody or fired the to be clear there's still The FDA and the CDC technically acknowledge that a adverse side effect of the COVID-19 vaccine is myocarditis, particularly in adolescent males. Okay, so, but that is so qualified with the assertion, but it's so rare that we needn't really concern ourselves with it. It's a very low risk outcome. So that is the assertion in order to prevent there from being any repercussion. Now, Senator Ron Johnson held a Senate hearing in May of this year. I actually attended with Dr. McCullough. And the question was, has myocarditis been deliberately obscured the risk?

Has it been covered up by the risk? the U.S. government, the same agencies who approved it for young people. And the answer is yes. And I think that this is very, very important. There isn't going to be a public acknowledgement from the same group of guys that they've made catastrophic errors and all of this. That will never be admitted. It will never be acknowledged. It won't. Well, then you have at that point, no moral authority, no credibility, and you can't continue in the same way that you did before. Like normal people will say, I'm not listening to a word you say, I'm not going to the doctor, that's where I am personally, but it's not just me. It's like any person who thinks about this.

It's like, how could I ever believe you again? Do you remember what I was saying earlier about a large percentage swath of the American people no longer believe anything, their government agencies tell them, it's the same. And the MRI vaccines are still being given to young people right now. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. I don't want to marinate enrage because it's not good for me, and I don't think it doesn't

elevate the conversation. But let me just circle back to the original question and just make sure we settle it. Do you think there's evidence that the changes to people to their genetic structure wrought by these vaccines could be passed on to their children? The McCullough Foundation, of which I am the vice president, we just published, I should say, we posted, we did an exposition of a paper that was recently published in which a patient, it's a published paper. It's a published case study. It's not a question of speculation. It's been published. Now, molecular biologists, I'm sure, could debate about this. But the finding is a person who had cancer of the bladder, which is a very severe cancer, in that tumor,

so in the bladder cells that had become dysplastic, that the, when cancer begins to develop, remember I was telling you about the coding, you get coding errors and it starts forming these malignant cells which are chaotic and that don't work but they keep replicating that's the problem with cancer it's like this dysfunctional thing that just keeps replicating it's kind of a horror show now i don't pretend to be an oncologist but the finding is is that messenger RNA was found in the the cancerous cells of this tumor so it seems to be integrated

Now, the question is, is it integrating in a way that can be passed on to the offspring, or is it so dysfunctional that it's killing the host before it can be passed on? And I don't know that we yet know that, but remember, the science is the topography of ignorance. I mean, there's a lot about this that is very, very concerning. There's also a study that this messenger RNA seems to have transcribed into liver. cells. So, you know, to really get to the bottom of this, you would have to have molecular biologists who aren't entranced by this that would have to really be willing to seriously evaluate it without presuppositions. And I just don't know that we're there. That's the problem where we are. It's, it's, if you receive the vaccine, if you approved it, if you, if you, um, told

your patients, they need to get it. Are you really going to be, unless you have a kind of damascene moment where you're like, okay, I totally screwed all of this up. Like 100%, I'm an idiot. All of my assumptions were wrong. But there aren't very many people with decency or integrity in medicine? Apparently not. Apparently there aren't.

I don't think so. I don't think these are complex concepts at all. They're very human concepts. There's nobody who hasn't screwed it up and learned that his preconceptions were wrong and he's given terrible advice or hurt people unwittingly. There's not one person who's, you know, past 14 years old who hasn't had that experience. And it is incumbent on us, it's our obligation to admit that. And like if people with the power of life and death, physicians can't admit that,

then we need to eliminate the profession. You can't have that. That's the one thing you can't have. dishonesty lack of concern for other people like not acceptable where's the AMA so get a load of this story why did i become interested in this whole this whole story of medicine and doctrine medicine and false orthodoxy this goes back to when i lived in vienna i lived in vienna for many years um is a true crime author. I became interested in and and sorry, your life story, which we haven't gotten into, but I would encourage people to look it up. So you start as a German speaking philosopher and you

wind up as a true crime author. I just, I just love the course of people's lives. It's so amazing. Well, well, I mean, talk about money. I mean, I mean, one, and the power of money to direct people's attention. So I think I would have liked to have been a philosopher. Two things happen. I didn't like hanging around with academics. And B, I mean, I don't mind not being rich, but I didn't like being poor. Oh, I hosted Fox and Friends weekend for four years. So I know what it means to have to make certain compromises to pay the bills. So I get it. So I got interested in forensic medicine. And I got to be pals with the pathologist, the forensic doctor at the Vienna Institute of Forensic Medicine. And she wanted to get some of her papers published in English.

And she said, you know, I can, I know the basic medical terms, but I don't know how to write in a good, nice, flowing style. This was before all these translate things. So, you know, I'll do my basic translation, I'll make sure the medical terminology is correct, but could you put this into a paper that somebody might want to actually read? So I did a few translations for her, and I got to be pals with her, and I got to where I was hanging out at the Vienna Institute of Forensic Medicine, you know, once every couple of months when I was researching my first book. And I became so fascinated. I even thought about writing a screenplay about this. So there was a professor of anatomy at the University of Vienna Medical School in the 1840s, and I'm sorry that his name is suddenly

slipping me, but he was an anatomy professor, and every day he took his students to the Institute of Forensic Medicine for anatomy class. They would do anatomical studies of cadavers. And then From the anatomy class, the students would then go to the obstetrics department of the University of Vienna Medical School. And there, the head of obstetrics was a guy named Professor Ignaz Semmelweis. Okay. So, the year is 1848. A pivotal year on the continent. Right, right. So think about a revolution.

It's interesting. was it 48 it might have been 46 anyway 1846 47 or 48 Semmelweis is pals with the professor of anatomy the professor of anatomy is doing a demonstration is using a scalpel on a cadaver and then accidentally cuts himself that injury that wound then becomes horribly infected and he dies he gets sepsis and he dies some of eyes starts thinking that's interesting because because his, the disease progression with the professor, it reminds me of what these girls in the maternity ward are suffering. It's called childbed fever. Exactly. Could it be, might there be

a connection? Now remember, this is before the germ theory of medicine. I think an Italian had proposed it, but it hadn't caught on. So some of my says, could it be that the corruption that is transferred from the cadaver to my friend with the scalpel that the students, they're coming directly here from anatomy, could it be they're transferring the same corruption from the body to the genital tracks of my girls in the maternity ward? Could it be that if I have them wash their hands with chlorinated lime, it's what grave diggers or undertakers use to cut putrefaction what'll happen so he tells the kids wash your hands with chlorinated lime before you examine the girls in my maternity ward so let's test your

powers of deductive reasoning what happened to the incidents of childbed fever in the maternity ward when they started washing their hands i'm thinking it fell it fell it fell it fell almost to zero from 20% to damn well close to zero. So some of I says, well, that's it. I mean, let's just have the kids wash their hands. So he publishes his study. He does an analysis of two different maternity wards. He does a nice comparative K-series study.

What do you think the eminences of Europe, the medical universities, Vienna, Paris, Stockholm. What did they say? How did they greet Semmelweis' seminal study? With cheering and tears of gratitude? Is that what you believe? No, because I know people. They said, that's fish tank cleaner. That's horse tranquilizer. How dare you? And then they went on CNN to denounce him. They said, you're crazy. You've been infected with a deranged superstition. Everybody knows. It's got nothing to do with that you're just putting stupid ideas into the heads if you're young and naive students stop it so

some of i says no i'm not going to stop it i'm going to continue researching this and i'm going to continue publishing this so this turns into a battle royale in europe okay now interestingly enough, Oliver Wendell Holmes is doing the same at the exact same time. I mean, I don't know, maybe they heard of each other. He's doing it at Harvard. And he, Holmes, is not getting a bunch of blowback at Harvard, but Semmelweis in Vienna is. Okay. So this is how badly this escalates. And remember this, be useful to remember, given the current climate of things. So the eminences of Europe say, we have to silence this guy. some of eyes then starts firing back you guys at this point have reached a moment where you actually

know that i'm telling the truth like like the reality is the evidence has now come in it's so strong that you know i'm telling the truth but you would rather than adopt my protocol of handwashing you would rather that young moms young mothers and their ends infants and maternity wards all over the continent of Europe, you would prefer that they die rather than admit you're wrong. Wow, man. So you know what the response was to him? You were a dangerous lunatic and we're having a court in Vienna declare you insane and we're

going to put you in the Vienna insane asylum. They admit him. Is this a true story? This is a true story. His wife says to him, I don't see, with all due respect, dear husband, I don't see how you can be right when all of these medical eminences are wrong. So she leaves him. No way. He's completely forsaken.

He's put it in a mental asylum or insane asylum. There's actually an insane asylum that still stands in Vienna. It's called the Nagen Tourm. The Tower of Fools. It still exists, by the way. It's very interesting. Remember the end of Amadeus, the film, where Salieri is being wheeled out?

He's in the Naren Turm. Yeah. Anyway, so I don't think that Semmelweis is in the Naren Tourm. I think he's at a facility in the Vienna, somewhere out in the Vienna woods. A guard strikes him with something. We don't know if it was a blunt object. We don't know if it was a sharp object.

He gets an infection. and he dies in an insane asylum. No. It's a true story. And how long was it until he was posthumously vindicated? I think Robert Koch in Germany in the 1870s vindicated. 1870s? So decades.

So consider this. when we talk about you're up against censorship and you're up against the imposition of falsehood and no matter what you say, you're just going to be told to shut up, shut up, shut up. I'm familiar with that, yes. It may be 30 years. Yeah, that's right. I mean, we may be all gone before. So I'll give you another example, smoking, tobacco.

So I know you like to smoke in your younger days. My mother will hold this against me, but when I lived in Europe, I enjoyed an occasional cigarette. To be clear, I've never stopped liking smoking. I love it. But no, I realize it as health effects that are bad. So the question was in the 1920s and 30s in Germany, is there a link between long-term use of tobacco and carcinoma of the lung, cancer of the lung. And here's where you have to be really particular.

So it's not that everyone who smokes is going to get lung cancer, it's not true. But could it be that in some cases, among some of the population, there's an underlying susceptibility. And if that susceptibility is activated by years of heavy cigarette smoking, could in that susceptible population, could it cause carcinoma of the lung? There was an epidemiologist in Germany named Fritz-Linkett, and he did a meta-analysis of all of the data from pathologists to doctors to everybody you could talk to that had ever made any observations on this, and he concluded, yes, not in everybody, but in a statistically significant, susceptible,

part of the population, cigarette smoking causes carcinoma of the lung. So that's 1930. Okay. And what year did the Surgeon General's warning appear on camel cigarettes? I think-1964. 64. So that's quite a spread. So Sir Austin Bradford Hill was probably the most famous epidemiologist of all time. We have these Bradford Hill criteria of evaluating causation. So in 1950, he does a landmark study, and he concludes, yes, again, not everybody, but in a susceptible population, smoking causes carcinoma of the lung. In spite of his prestige, the tobacco industry, all of its hired gun doctors, and the tobacco industry did have hired gun doctors, that was systematically obscured for another 16,

years. So when interests are at stake, don't expect acknowledgement of error. It's all shocking, but as I think the story, the amazing story you just told, reminds us we should not be shocked because this is how people are and how always have been. And even if the recognition you receive for telling the truth is posthumous or doesn't come at all, it doesn't matter because it's virtue in itself to tell the truth. And that's why I'm grateful for the book you wrote with Peter McCullough. And I'm grateful for this conversation, which is like twice as compelling as what I expected. So thank you. Thank you. You don't need to be an economist to see what's happening. The dollar is in trouble. It's

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