The Tucker Carlson Show - Matt Walsh Responds to Demands to Disavow His Allies, and How to Resolve the Right-Wing Civil War

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

A civil war is consuming the American right. Matt Walsh may be the only person with a foot on both sides. What’s that like? (00:00) Is There a Civil War Breaking Out on the Right? (05:00) Why Walsh Refuses to Publicly Denounce Anyone (16:49) What Is Leftism? (30:34) Why Walsh Doesn't Care About Israel (43:14) Why Does Randy Fine Think the Death of Children Is Funny? (1:21:35) Why Labels and Name-Calling No Longer Work Paid partnerships with: Beam: Go to https://ShopBeam.com/Tucker use code TUCKER and get up to 40% off Beam's Dream powder. Dutch: Get $50 a year for vet care with Tucker50 at https://dutch.com/tucker Cozy Earth: Slow down and recharge with Cozy Earth's luxurious Bamboo Sheets and Bubble Cuddle Blanket - order by December 12 for Christmas delivery and use code TUCKER at https://cozyearth.com/TUCKER for up to 40% off. Battalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver. Gain clarity and confidence in your financial future at https://battalionmetals.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Let me commend you on your tight rope walking skills. I don't check into social media that much, but whenever I do, I'm like, Matt Walsh is an amazing man. Glad you feel that way anyway. No, I mean, there's a lot. The reason I want to talk to you is there's a lot that I admire about how you've handled this just as a man, leaving aside our opinions, which I don't even know if they are probably differ in some ways, same in other ways, but it's not even about that.

I you know everybody involved personally or most of them involved in all these dramas on the right and I think the way that you've handled it is just so so impressive um so thank you for that but but first like what is going on there is a civil war probably not too strong on the right within the trump coalition what is it? Yeah, I mean, this has been, it's been a really awful, I think for everybody. And a lot of this drama obviously goes back, goes back a long way, but I think after Charlie was killed, it's created this kind of this vacuum and it's a it's a leadership vacuum because charlie was uh was i think the the best leader we had on the right and the the tragic reality is that a lot of the stuff that

that we said right after he was killed turned out not to be true stuff that even i said like well you you killed charlie but you made a you made a million more right you killed charlie but now we have a million more Charlie's. And I think we said that because we wanted that to be true. And for a brief amount of time, it felt that way because it felt like everybody was sort of unified and we were coming together and going to the memorial and everybody was there. And it felt like almost this revival, even this religious revival and all these things. But then I think quickly reality sets in and what we have realized and what we've seen is that

you kill Charlie and now Charlie's gone and when you that's the thing when you kill someone they're gone at least in this life and so we no we didn't go from one Charlie to a million charlie's we went from one Charlie to zero Charlies and that's just

that's what happens with that's why assassinations happen that's why people do them because they work because it works yeah because they work and that's been the greatest tragedy about all this I mean aside from the human tragedy that an actual human being lost their lost his life

and his wife doesn't have a husband and kids don't have a father. I mean, that's the great tragedy, the human tragedy. But on a kind of national scale, the tragedy is that the strategy of assassination has been proven effective, again, as it has all throughout human history. And so now this guy who was this, I think to an extent that none of us fully realized was the glue that was holding everything together on the right, holding this whole crazy coalition together. It turns out it was like one guy who was doing this and his organization, which is still around, who had a lot of respect for TPSA. And I think they're doing the absolute best they can

in the face of this. I mean, I have no, I can't even imagine being in the spot that they're in. But he was the leader of organization. He was a leader of the conservative movement. He was the glue and now he's gone and it kind of feels like everything's coming undone to be honest with you um and there's this uh so there's all there's all the there's all the fighting that goes that's that's going on and uh for me personally and i don't like to i don't get into this because first of all i don't like talking about myself i like i like to talk about the things that i think i talk about my ideas about things all the time but i don't like talking about myself good i like people don't like talking about themselves. But with that said, I hope you'll talk about yourself.

Well, and also, I don't want to, like, I'm not the victim of any of this at all. But I can only speak from my own experiences. And so my experience is that I'm a, consider myself a personal friend of many of the people on either side of all of these various disputes, including a friend of yours. And so that's a, that's a That's a very complicated position to be in. And then what ends up, what does it happen? Yes. Yes.

And there's, so there's people on either side. It's really not even two sides. It's, I don't know how many. It's a fractured to a million pieces it feels like. And so you've got the people on all the different sides of the different disputes who are shouting at me that, well, I need to denounce so and so. I need to disavow this person. I need to come out and say, you know, that I, not just, I just, I just, that I disagree, because it's one that we'd have disagreements, but the pressure is beyond it.

The pressure is, they'll just disagree, but disavow, denounce, condemn. And my answer has been, and not everybody respects it, you don't have to respect it. But my answer is, no, I'm not going to do that. And I'm not going to denounce a friend. I'm not ever going to do it. ever, because to me, loyalty is a principle. Loyalty is a, so when people say, well, you need to stand on your principles

and come out and say this or that, well, loyalty is a principle, in my mind. It's one of the most important principles for any person, for a man especially. And I think that, you know, people, if you're not in the middle of it and you're kind of on the outside, there are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that you don't know about.

And so when I say that somebody is a friend and I feel personal loyalty to them, that doesn't just mean that, oh, I kind of like that person. But for me anyway, what that means is this is someone who I know personally, who I can call on the phone, who I can share a meal with, I've shared a meal with. And very often, this is someone who has had my back and supported me in ways that you might not see. Not in like they've paid me off, but just in a friend. Like, I've got your back. I'm going to support you. I'll defend you. Hey, everyone's attacking you for this or that reason. And I got your back, right? And so there are a lot of people who've done that for me. And once you do that for me, then I feel like duty bound that I cannot turn around. I will not turn around and stab you in the back or condemn you. Like, you have my back. I'll have yours. That's, that's the idea. Okay. That's the principle you said. You said, it's more than an idea, it's more than an emotional response, it's a principle,

and you said it's especially important for men. And I just agree with you so strongly when you say that, but I haven't taken the time to think through why it's so important to me. Can you explain why that's a principle and why it's especially important for men? Well, I think it's about, I think it's about integrity. It's a matter of personal integrity. It's also a matter of having a spine. I mean, if you denounce someone because, especially, again, a friend,

because you've got a million people screaming in your face and telling you to do it, well, how can that possibly be a principled standard? You're doing it to get people to stop yelling at you. Right. That's why you're doing it. And actually, even if they're not your friend, if people are yelling at it, if you do anything because people are yelling at you to do it, then that's the wrong. It's the wrong reason to do something.

Yes. It's the wrong reason even to do the right thing on it, really. But with a friend, it's the wrong thing. There's also just this basic principle of, you know, doing to others as you would have them doing to you. And there's something uniquely repulsive about betrayal. And that's what that is. That's why Quisling got executed.

That's why Judas is reviled. Betrayal, you know, someone that you're responsible for or are in a real relationship with, and then you whip around and undercut the person, that's worse than like an invading army kind of. It feels that way to me. And I think that's, right, that's something we all kind of instinctively understand,

which is why everyone has such a low opinion of traders. Yes. You know, traders are below dirt in terms of how we rank them. Now, disagreement, on the other hand, is not betrayal. and you can obviously disagree with someone who's a friend. And if you have a friend who demands that you never disagree with them, well, that's not really a friend. No.

And the relationship you have with them is one of, it's not a friend relationship. It's a master slave relationship. Right, it's a subservient relationship. And as men, we should not be in those kinds of relationships either. So you'd certainly disagree with someone. And so I'm not talking about that, and that's important. Because even what I'm saying right now, I know that Twitter's going to have fun with it,

And they're going to say, oh, as you're saying, you can never disagree with a friend. Of course you can disagree with a friend. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about what I have personally experienced. Like if I look in my mentions or email or even people I talk to of saying denounce, condemn, disavow. That is the, very specifically, that's what I've heard. And that is the thing that I cannot ever do. and maybe I have a more

extreme view of that than most people. No, you don't. You have the most basic human view. Like, what world are we in? Well, because someone asked me once, they said, we were talking about this and they said, okay, what if someone you're really close with your brother?

What if he murder someone? What if he becomes an axe murderer? Well, then you would disavow him and condemn him, wouldn't you? No, I'd get him a fake passport. The media is my brother. Yeah, if my brother was a serial killer and had 40 bodies in his basement,

I would not get on camera and disavow or condemn him. I would not do it. Now, who are you saying this to? Someone actually asked you that question? Yes. To be clear, it was not my brother who was trying to make sure I wouldn't.

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But here's the catch. it's only available at this price until it sells out go to shopbeam.com slash tucker use the code tucker we recommend it but just like because their point is like yeah the point they're trying to make I understand the point is that yeah you're loyal to people but it's to a point and it could get to a point where it's so something happens that's so extreme or they've done something that's so extremely wrong that it should it changes your calculation

and my point is that for me it doesn't now that doesn't mean that so if my brother going back to my brother being a serial killer which by the way, he's not, just to be clear. But if you were, I wouldn't defend it. I wouldn't get on camera and say, actually, it's okay to be a serial killer. And in that case, I mean, you know, I can understand the temptation to get him a passport, get him out of town. But I would turn him in because I think that that's justice and also it's best for him and his soul that he faced. Yeah, you're probably.

He faced the consequence. But it wouldn't be easy to do. But even in the midst of all that, I would not, I wouldn't get up in public and say, I condemn and disavow. It's got the way that I, you know, what happens on Twitter or on social media in general now when people are, when they, when they, when they, when, when someone does something that upsets everyone, it's like the old, it's like the mid ages where your, your head is in the stocks, right, in the town square and everyone's coming back by and throwing tomatoes at you. And, and I've had my head in the stocks many times with the Twitter mob. I've been in that spot. And probably in times when I've deserved it because I've said something that really is just stupid. And so I. everyone is just flinging crap at me and so okay been there uh but my point is that if it's my friend who's got their head in the stock even if they kind of deserve it because they said something stupid or they're doing something stupid there's no scenario ever where i'm going to pick up a tomato

and throw it at them uh i'm not going to do that now i might i might speak to them privately and say, hey, you know what, you kind of have this coming because, you know, you need to get it together. You need to get it in line because what you did was wrong. I'll speak to someone privately and tell them that. And I have done that. If I disagree with a friend and what they're doing, I will tell them that. So that's the basic principle. But again, that's not, that is all different from disagreement and saying I disagree with this person. Of course. This is intuitively obvious, I think, to normal. people. What I'm so struck by is how this doesn't just remind me of like medieval Europe. It reminds me of 2023. This is why Trump got elected. When we say woke or, you know, the crazy left, this is exactly, at least speaking for myself, what I'm talking about. First of all, it's identity politics, it's censorship, the two things I hate in our country. But it's the same impulse to publicly denounce people, to destroy people. And really what you're saying when you demand that is it's not just a breach of loyalty.

It's a transfer of loyalty. You're saying you need to be more loyal to me and my ideas or the mob than you are to your own friends. It's like demanding control of your loyalty. And my view has always been, I'm an adult man. I'll decide who I like and who I don't. That's up to me. You're trying to strip me in my autonomy of my humanity. Like, no thanks.

And that's why I got to the point where, after many years of disagreeing with the left, I really hated the left. Because I find that so totalitarian and scary. I just can't even believe that less than a year later, the right is doing the same thing. Like, what is going on? Yeah, and that, and going back to the great tragedy, the many tragedies that have grown from the one great tragedy of Charlie's death. it is it is that it is that we have like the left I still believe I'm old fashioned so call me old fashioned but I still believe that the left that leftism leftism as an ideology is the enemy it is it is the it is the problem it's the thing that we're

fighting against it's the thing that I've always fought against it's why I'm it's why I'm doing any of this this is the only reason I'm on camera right now the only reason that that I'm doing any of this. The only reason I got into this, whatever it is what we're doing, whatever this business is, this fight, it's the reason I'm in it, is to oppose leftism. How do you define leftism? Well, I would define it.

Modern leftism is, first of all, moral relativism. It's the idea that I have my own truth. There is no truth. There's no truth. I have my own. And so I think to me that's that's the core of the thing. And I think that if you're a relativist, then you are a leftist. It doesn't matter what else you believe.

You could be a relativist and be anti-immigration. You could be a relativist and believe in gun rights. Now, I think most relativists don't end up there. But even if you did, you're still a leftist because you reject truth. So that's what it is at its core. And also leftism, not really also, but as an extension of that, it's an outgrowth of that, it's an outgrowth of that. Leftism opposes civilization, and it opposes Western civilization in particular, and American identity, most particularly of all. It opposes all of the institutions

that our civilization depends on and is grounded in, like the institution of the family and the institution of marriage. It rejects all of that. It rejects the fundamental truths that we depend on. It rejects the fundamental reality, like the reality of, well, men aren't women. And they're kind of, I think a lot of leftists are trying to, in a really, really embarrassed kind of way back away from that one

because we beat them on it. you know it's a thing when we as conservatives can actually put all this bullshit to the side and focus on something we can win and we beat the it's not it's not totally dead but the trans agenda is on life support and we defeated it we took it down we beat it we can do that and it's a good thing that we did because that was and is wicked and evil that's hurting people and killing people couldn't agree more um but they also they reject the reality of uh of of of life. The fact that that that that human life is um has inherent worth and dignity from the moments the moment of its existence from the moment of its conception that your life is not the value

of your life is not contingent. That's another fundamental aspect of leftism. They believe that human life, the value of human life is contingent. It's contingent for babies on whether or not their mother wants them. It's contingent on how much of an inconvenience they cause to their parents. And if it turns out that their mom doesn't want them and their parents find them inconvenient, then their life has no value. Their life is less than garbage and can be killed and thrown into a dumpster. And that's what is still happening in this country. You know, every single day, that's still happening. Hundreds of thousands, every year, hundreds of thousands of human children are poisoned,

stabbed in the heart with poison needles, dismembered, decapitated, and thrown into medical waste dumpsters. They don't even get a burial because they are treated as less than... Or recycled into vaccines. Yes. They are treated as having less value than a dog.

They have less. less value than an animal. I mean, there are, there are, there are animals who are, who are from conception federally protected like sea turtles and bald eagles and human children have less protection than that. So, and I know you know all this, I'm preaching to the choir. My point is that, it can't be said too much. Right.

My point is that, so that's happening. That is, to me, that's the enemy. That is what we're opposing. And if you're in favor of that, if you're among the forces that are pushing this, the destruction of the family, the destruction of human life in the womb, the rejection of reality, of objective truth, of national, of American identity, of Western civilization, if you're pushing that, then you're my enemy. You are my enemy and I want to destroy your, I want to destroy your ideology. I want to destroy everything you stand for. That's what I want to do. And if you're against, but if you're against them, and that is to say you stand for American identity and for the sanctity of human life and the family

and objective truth and reality, the church, faith. If you're on that side, then I consider you to be basically an ally. And we could disagree vehemently on a lot of other issues. We could disagree on, we could there could be a lot of disagreement if we agree that okay we need to preserve all as conservatives what are we conserving well to me it's easy we're conserving western civilization

we're conserving american identity we're conserving the sanctity of human life we're conserving the family we're conserving marriage that's what we're conserving and if you agree with me on that then we're on the same side as far as i'm concerned now we might have a lot of disagreements about how to conserve those things and those those disagreements might be even brutal and bitter at times but if that is the argument then we're all in the same side arguing

if we're arguing about whether those things should be conserved well then if you're on the other side of that argument then we're not on the same side at all we're in two different universes like I don't even know what universe you're living in and the divide I think ideologically in this country is so vast and so deep

and so unbridgeable that we may as well be living in different universes. We may as well be aliens from different galaxies trying to live on a planet together, and it's just not working out. That's what it feels like. And so for me, that's where the fight is. That's where I want the fight to remain.

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or visit fees, unlimited visits and follow-ups for no extra cost, plus free shipping on all products for up to five pets. It sounds amazing like it couldn't be real, but it actually is real. Visit dutch.com slash Tucker to learn more. Use the code Tucker for 50 bucks off your veterinary care per year. Your dogs, your cats, and your wallet will thank you. Okay. First of all, that's like the greatest description I've heard in a long time, the clearest. It was like music to me hearing that because I agreed with every single word so strongly. You didn't mention economics I noticed, which is revealing. I didn't. And yeah. I wouldn't. And I know you've got views on it. I certainly do. But you mentioned what underlies the economic views, which is like your view of other

human beings. Yeah, because I don't mean, but it. Yeah. So that's, I'm glad you brought that up because that's a really important point. Because I am, when it comes to economics, I'm pretty, I hate to use the term, I'm pretty libertarian when it comes to a lot of economic stuff. Yeah, me too. I would love to see, I don't think there should be a welfare state at all. I I think we should abolish food stamps. I think we should abolish the income tax. I think the income tax is evil. I think it's terrible.

And so that's how I feel about it. However, as far as I'm concerned, you could be a conservative and have the exact opposite. You could be a conservative and say, you know what, I think we should raise the income tax. I think the welfare state is great. I think there should be more of it. I think we should give food stamps to more people. I think we should have universal basic income. I think all these things.

You could have that view as a conservative. Now, I will vehemently disagree with you. I will argue with you and I will yell at you and you'll yell at me and that will be fine. But if the reason why you want that, it comes down to why do you want that? Why do you think we should have a welfare state? If your reason is that, well, this is the way to support families and this is the way to make sure that we can have more families and people can have kids. Well, I think you're wrong. I think actually it destroys the family, but you want the same thing as I do.

And so we're on the same side. I just think that you're, I think you're lost. I think you're trying to find the same destination. You're off in the woods somewhere on the path. And I want to, I want to wave to you and say, no, come back over here. But you're using the same alphabet. I mean, you're speaking in the same tongue. Like you have a common point of reference because you want the same outcome.

Which is on the left, the reason why they want a lot of that stuff is more control is more control. And because they actually want to destroy the family. They want to make the family irrelevant. They say, well, you know, if we have a vast welfare state, everyone's got, everyone's getting money. everyone's on the dole, then you don't really need the family. And you don't need a father going to work and caring for his family. And so that's what they're trying to get to. That's their reason for having that view.

But who is they is the question. And as I heard you explain who you're fighting against and why. And I nodded along in agreement. I really was the choir to your sermon. I thought you're describing the people who defend the war in Gaza. Perfectly, perfectly. They don't believe in absolute standards of truth at all. What they're committing in Gaza is exactly what they decry correctly when it happens to other people.

Can't kill innocence. They didn't do anything wrong. Not on purpose you can. Period. You're not allowed to do that. But they defend it fully. So they don't believe in an absolute standard of behavior at all. They don't believe in truth.

It's totally dependent upon circumstance. Like, in fact, you've even seen people say it out loud. You know, we raised an entire generation correctly to believe that slow. because of how they were born is the greatest sin, which it is. I believe that. And now we're being, you know, hoisted by our own standards. And my view is, no, standards are absolute. It's either true or it's not. And it's universally applicable or it's not a real thing. It's just group, it's identity politics. It's exactly what I hate. And identity politics is the kind of political expression of the worldview that you have just decried and declared war against.

And God bless you for doing that. But that is in full flower on the right. And I'm not going to, I don't want to dignify people by naming them, but people I know who call themselves like MAGA conservatives are defending the murder of innocence. And by the way, some of them suggest we just move the refugees into the United States because that's good for the country that they support. But is that good for us? That's an attack on American identity.

you're also describing, by the way, in a lot of ways, Nicholas Maduro of Venezuela, who are all required to hate, and I'm not supporting him, of course, but this is like the most socially conservative country in Latin America that is banned abortion, banned gay marriage, banned gender transitions, banned usury, banned, you know, loaning at crazy interest levels because it destroys people. I don't think he's done a good job running his country. Obviously, he hasn't. But to your point that, like, we should be open. to talking to people who share our most basic values, how is he not on that list? Oh, shut up, you communist, but I'm not a communist. I'm not going to be bullied by your dumb labels, not yours, but I'm anticipating the many attacks. I have been attacked for saying that, but it's just it's true. So what's the answer? Do you see what I'm saying? So I guess what's blowing my mind is that I thought I was speaking the same languages, a lot of people that I disagreed with on the margins, like about, you know, what's the best way to harness capitalism and help people. I mean, these are real debates. And then I realized with the war in Gaza that, like,

these are people who don't believe in Western civilization, because Western civilization can be boiled down to one concept. And that's the individual. If someone does something wrong, we punish that person, we don't kill his kids. Why do we do that? Why is that our standard? Because we believe that God created every person as an individual, and every person will stand before God alone to account for his life. He's not responsible for what his children do, what his ancestors did what his forebears might do. He's responsible for himself because we believe in the individual soul, not the collective soul. And that's what makes our civilization unique in the history of the world. And it derives from Christianity from the Christian belief of the individual

soul. And I see all these people who like clearly don't believe that. So how are we on the same side? Well, I think, I mean, so this is where we, uh, we can be friends on the same side and disagree because yeah I wouldn't agree with everything you've just laid out there I think that I think now last time we talked and we talked a little bit about Israel and my take at the time was I really don't care right I just don't care I honestly don't care I want that take bad I don't want to care I don't want anything to do that's and that that's still my take that's always been my take it upsets people on both this is one legitimately on both sides of the Israel issue, people get mad at me for that because they say that, well, if they're

very pro-Israel, they say, well, you're being a coward and you need to stand up and support Israel and talk about how Israel's our greatest, most important ally, and all this stuff. But then another side, very much, it's, well, no, Israel's the great Satan. They're the most evil country in the world. They're responsible for everything bad that happens, which is something that I think some people legitimately really do believe at some level. A lot of people believe that. Right. And so then they say to me, well, well, well, you need to stand up and say, you know, and say that. And again, my response to that is, first of all, don't tell me what to say, okay?

I have my own mind. Amen. So don't tell me what to say. I will say what I want to say. And I can only speak from my own opinion. This is my view. And I think, and we'll get back to it, but not to get sidetracked. This is one thing, by the way, that's making political conversation in this country impossible,

is that all anyone ever does anymore is impugn the motives behind the argument that you're making. So you make an argument and then everyone goes, well, you're only saying that because... And it's like, first of all, even if it's true that I'm making this argument for some dishonest reason,

well, is the argument right or not? Because if the argument is right, the argument's still right, even if I'm the worst guy in the world saying it. But it's also like arguing with a woman, they tell you what you think, and it's like, no, I'm actually telling you what I think. I mean what?

Right. Well, here's why you're really saying that. Well, for me, the only person who can speak to your motives is you. Exactly. And so if I ask you, well, why are you saying that? And you tell me, I have no choice but to just accept that. Because I'm not in your mind. You're the only authority.

You're the only authority of what is in your mind. You're the only one on the planet. The only other authority, the only greater authority is God. And I can't really ask him. So I can only go to you on that. And so for me... You're describing my life, but yes, I agree with you completely. So for me, on Israel, when I say, I don't care, and everyone on both sides goes, well, you're saying that because, no, I'm saying that because that's what I think.

I'm saying, and I always have, which is why, by the way, you can go through my catalog. I've been blabbering my opinions publicly for a while now. And not as, you know, I haven't been in the business as long as you, but I've been, you know, at least 10 years on the record. And if you go through that, before I worked at the Daily Wire, And while I was, when I was independent, I was an independent blogger just like churning out content. And you know, and you can go through all that. And here's what you'll find.

You'll find that I almost never, ever talked about Israel. And when I did talk about it, on the rare, like once every five years, if it came up, my take was, I don't really care about this. I don't care about this country. It's not my country. You know, if you're in America, if you're an American politician, you should care about America first. And that's it.

that's always been my take. So that's always been my take. By the way, me too, believe it or not, up until the last year, I don't, in 35 years, I don't think I've talked about Israel 10 times. December's already here. I felt like it was just summer the other day. Your life is moving fast. As always, there's a lot to keep track of between Christmas, family, giving presents, keeping up with your regular life. Times like these are when moments of peace become essential. They're the chance to recharge. That's why we love cozy Earth. If you're thinking about who deserves a gift that will help them actually relax, then cozy Earth has you covered. Bamboo sheets are the gift of better sleep. They're actually made from bamboo. They don't feel like it, though. They're wild,

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components of the American right who are defending mass murder and I mean that murder killing people who didn't do anything wrong in Gaza that's it it's not Israel it's what about the parts of this coalition that as you noted Charlie really did keep together that are now fracturing but one of the reasons they're fracturing is because they have different views different worldviews and that is obvious when you hear how they respond to the murder of like kids and women in Gaza. So it's Americans responding to that. Are you really conservative?

How are you not the leftist that you just described? If you're like, well, they're basically all Hamas, including the kids, that is collective punishment. That's blood guilt. That's the opposite of what you described. How can I be on the same side as someone with that attitude? Well, here's what I would say. I think that if somebody is making the argument that, uh,

we or Israel can kill as many Palestinians as they want, can kill children because their lives have no value because they're Palestinian. If you're making that argument, then that is a leftist argument. Exactly. It's a leftist argument. However, however, however, I think that there are plenty of people

who would defend and have defended Israel's actions in Gaza and even our involvement, which I don't agree with us being in, involved at all, but people have had that view. But not on that basis. What they would say is, you know, they would say, oh, well, it's not true that we're that they're killing children. It's not, or, or it's really tragic, but, but it's, it's, it's, you know, there's no other way to fight the war. It's, it's, it's, it's, we're actually targeting the terrorists and this is, this is, uh, these are casualties that happen like in any war. It's very bad. You try to minimize them,

but it, we don't, we don't want that to happen. Um, they could say, you know, there's many arguments along those lines. Also, arguments that just kind of reject the premise. Like, your premise is that they're doing mass murder of people in Gaza. I think that there are conservatives who would just reject that premise and say, that's not actually happening.

Okay, but if you, just the, I think the undisputed fact there are tens of thousands, 70,000, we can certainly say tens of thousands of women and children killed in Gaza. And so there are really two arguments you can make. One is that like that happens in war, collateral damage, which is true. It's 100% true that that always happens.

and war. It hasn't happened at the scale in 80 years, but in the West. But it does happen. And the United States has done a lot of it. We dropped the atom bombs. Okay. So like we're not, Israel's not the only country that's done this. But what are you sad about it? Do you think it's bad? Would you be willing to say, holy shit, I can't believe we killed 70,000 non-combatants? That's the acid test. Can you admit that that's horrible? It's horrible. It's a moral crime. It was a moral crime. We dropped the bomb on Hiroshima.

It's not even a close call in my view. It's not an endorsement of the Imperial Japanese government, but it's like that's just bad. If you can't say that, then you are endorsing collective punishment, aren't you? Well, I think it goes back to what argument are you making? So, like using Hiroshima, for example. And I'll be honest, I've kind of been on both sides of that.

I think there's interesting arguments on both sides. I think a morally untenable argument would be, well, yeah, just kill as many as you need to. They don't matter. They were Japanese. They were the enemy. Just killed them.

Like, that's morally untenable, obviously. And based on that argument, well, then we could just nuke. If you get into a war, just like nuke the entire country, kill everybody. And why not? And that obviously is, that is rejecting the value of human life. which is an unconservative view. It's also just deeply immoral.

But the other side of the argument for like the atom bomb, for example, would say, well, this was the best way to preserve human life, that these were legitimate military targets. And the way to preserve human life ultimately was this way. If we had not done it, then millions more people would have died. Millions more Japanese would have died. And that's the argument. Now, like I said, I can see the argument for that.

Now, that runs into the charge of ends just, the means. Well, it doesn't run into the charge. It's an expression of ends. Yeah. Well, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, it's like the perfect articulation of it. It's like, if I could save millions by shooting your children, it's okay to shoot your children. But I think there's a, like, there's ends justify the means. Now we're getting into philosophical. I'm not a philosopher. There's end justify the means. There's also kind of the principle of double effect, which is different. And double effect is, well, so I understand it, you can do something that you know will have a negative effect, but you're

intentions are good, and you're doing it in order to bring about a good result. This was the argument that Hitler and Stalin made. If you take a look at Stalin's personal correspondence and diaries, which, by the way, are available. It was super interesting. He was an idealist. Like, he really believed he was ushering in a new era of man. And, like, you had to kill a lot of Ukrainians to do that. And Georgians, and Russians, by the way, a lot of Christians.

you had to murder a lot of priests to get there. But by the end, you would have utopia. Hitler felt that way. It's like if we only get the Jews out, everything will be great. And so, but we are against them because we don't share that view. We believe in human life. Like, it's not okay to kill an innocent person. Yeah, I think, yeah, that argument, well, it's not, yeah, it's not okay to intentionally

and deliberately kill an innocent person. I think that's, you know, in, you know, in, war, innocent people do die. I think that there can, there are a lot of wars that have been unjust. There are such a thing as a just war. For sure. There's such thing as a necessary war. And if we can agree on that, then we have to accept that any war, innocent people will die. It's terrible tragedy. So now, but the argument that I was just playing out for dropping the atom bomb, it's true. Like that can be terribly abused. My only point is, and I'm not even taking a position on that because my honest my honest view is like I kind of feel like I have I have an opinion

of it and then I express it and someone comes and they just eviscerate my argument on it and then I think well you might be right and then I hear so like that's kind of where I'm super tough I mean I should just say I hope I don't sound self-righteous I've my views have changed if you went through my corpus of opinions it would be a Jackson Pollock painting it would just be splashes of everything so like my views are evolving in real time I but I I've been forced to think about it because of what's happening in Gaza. It's like I don't feel like I have a choice. My point about that is whatever is the correct view.

Let's just accept for the sake of argument. I'll take your view that dropping the out of the bottom was morally wrong. I still think that somebody could be wrong about that, but for the right reasons. And so they're still kind of on my side because the wrong, if you're correct in your argument, then the wrong for the right reasons position is yeah we we cherish human life this was the best way ultimately to preserve human life and again you can say well that's wrong but someone could have that view and the reason why they have it is because they truly believe in the sanctity of human life and they just honestly believe that that was the best way to preserve that was my opinion until recently as a lifelong adamant pro lifer so i i mean i want to give myself the benefit of the doubt, you know, I'm not for dead kids. I guess what is really brought this to the four is a guy called Randy Fine, who's a congressman from Florida who, you know, I disagree with on a lot. I don't think I disagree with him on anything, actually. He spent his

career in the gambling business, exploiting people, and now he got some kind of clever way to find a Senate, a house seat in Florida, everything about it I disapprove of. And of course, I don't like his foreign policy views. But there are a lot of people like that, and I'm not mad at them. What makes him unusual is that he said out loud what I think a lot of people think which is like it's hilarious to see a picture of a dead child in Gaza somebody tweeted him I know you're online you've seen this a picture of a dead baby in Gaza and he laughed at it and said someone said how can you sleep at night you know getting self-righteous with him okay being high-handed like the anti-war left is how can you sleep but okay so I get it they're annoying but like it is like

his response was very well thank you thanks for the pick if that's your gut reaction to a picture of a dead baby we are not on the same side in any way on the deepest level we're not on the same I'm a father like I'm not how can I laugh at that I can't and that to me revealed what I think a lot of people think who I know very well who call themselves conservatives which is just like these are not human beings well if you've got that attitude how can you how can you really care about me or my country or my children? Like, I don't think you can. Yeah, I think that I certainly would agree with you on that.

If you think that dead kids are funny, then we're not, we're not just on the same side, but this goes back to, I don't think we're living in the same universe. You're the leftists that you described. Yeah, because you fundamentally cannot value human life if you could ever see it as funny that a child was... I think. So, for sure. And I think that there are people that we would call neocons that are definitely not conservative by any stretch. My only point to you is that I think there are plenty of people

who are on the other side of the argument who are conservative and they just don't, they don't agree with the premise that you're laying out. They don't. And they do want to preserve human life. They think this is the way to do it. They could be wrong. But people can be wrong about things. Or they haven't thought about it or the partisan system. I'll speak for myself. I didn't think about it at all. And all the people getting mad about Horatio. from a hated America. It was just a fact. And they wanted to say that all American military expeditions were immoral because America was fundamentally immoral. That's the point they were making. They wanted us to hate ourselves. They taught us a history that convinced our kids to

hate themselves and to hate their own country. And that's all evil. And we're watching the results of it now. So I was like, man, there's no way I'm on their side. Like they hate everything that I love, including my nation. So I just was like, if you're for it, I'm not for it. And because I'm a child that way, like I just react against things. But now I'm feeling like I got misled into supporting an awful lot of violence, like a lot of violence. And how is that good? Yeah, I think, well, so there's two things. First of all, there's a maybe there's a whole other category we should be talking about because we're talking about, oh, left, right, conservative, liberal.

Then you have, you also have, though, politicians who often, not always, but. often are neither and they don't have an ideology and for sure and their ideology is control and power and that's what they care what percentage would you say fall into that category um 95% it feels that way doesn't it I would I'll amend that I think it's it used to be 95% I want control and power I think now it's more like this is even worse now it's like 70% want control and power and then you've got another 20% who they're just there because they want attention like the Jasmine Crockett's right they're just there because they want to be influencers like Jasmine Crockett I'm so grateful for her she amuses me every day but if you

were to go to Jackson Crockett and say okay here's two buttons press one button and you're the president of the United States press the other button and you have 50 million Instagram followers and you're an Instagram she is pest pressing the Instagram button in a second but that But that's a different, like, species of politician we've never really seen before. Yeah, no, it's so true. Because up to this point, every single politician, like, I can be president. I'll take that over, you know, if it's like, I'll press this button, you can be president, but as a consequence, your whole family dies, they're pressing the button.

Oh, yeah. A lot of these people. And now it's a little bit, there's, there are people who, who, they're politicians, they're not even really hungry for power. They just want attention, which I think in some ways is somehow even worse. But anyway, the, the, the just want power category, I think that does describe a lot, of the people we would call like neocons

Lindsay Graham is for sure in this category you know I don't know where it was he gave a speech recently he was talking about I think it was him

bragging about how we ran out of bombs or something like that I think I have the right person here yeah and so it's like okay well you obviously do not take

human life seriously if you just think it's like you just want to run out of the bombs and and for someone like him this is not someone who's a conservative at all he does he doesn't but it's not for someone like him he doesn't i don't think that he's um

passionately in favor of like abortion or no destroying the family he just doesn't care doesn't matter right it doesn't doesn't matter to him so um so i think that's that's the other category that exists and really that's really smart that's really smart it's like post ideological it's even kind of post power it's just pure narcissism yeah although i in if i could i'm actually I'm actually glad you brought up because I wanted to talk to you about this. In defense of violence, if I could, because I've heard you talk about about this. And my views are, by the way, changing even during this conversation. Like, this is all new to me, so I don't.

So because I'm actually, I think in some ways we should have a lot more violence in society. I'm sort of pro-violence in a certain context. I think that violence can be a necessary tool for justice. I just believe that. Now, it can be really misused, and it very often is, and I think it very often is these days, but it is a necessary tool for justice. And so what I'm really mostly talking about

are evil people who've committed terrible crimes against the innocent. And I think that through illegal means, and I'm talking about, you know, I'm talking about, you know, extradition, or lynchings or anything. Right, right. I'm talking about legal means for those kinds of people, we should be using violence a lot more because I think that it's just,

I just think that it's justice. What is justice? Justice is giving to someone what they're owed, you know, giving, giving to anything. Putting things in their right place, basically, I would say is justice. So giving someone what they're owed is justice. So if you owe me $5, it's justice that you give me $5. That's a matter of justice. And if you give me $3 and you owe me $5, that's an injustice that has occurred.

Now, if I slap your wife in front of you, I'm owed something else. I'm not owed $5, but I am owed something now. Like it is right that I receive something. And that I would say is a slap right. You slap my wife, I'll punch you 10 times in the face instead. Like that's, that is a just response. that is justice. And I think what we have these days,

you've got a lot of people walking around doing this assault, like literally assaulting women, you know, and they don't receive what they're owed. And what their owed is harsh and I think sometimes violent, but just punishment. And so that's my one kind of caveat. You know, it's hard to disagree with that. It's, I mean, of course, viscerally, I agree with you.

And all of this is just aimed at whites, obviously. Because what you're talking about is a racial dynamic where non-whites who commit crimes just aren't punished as harshly as whites who commit crimes. So it's a racial double standard designed to, like, destroy the country, which it's doing. And I feel that. Every person feels that, like the need for justice. And sometimes that expression is physical. How do you balance that against, like, the Sherman on the Mount, which I happen to have read this morning, where Jesus is like, well, the law is eye for. and I, tooth for a tooth, but I tell you, you know, turn the other cheek and, you know,

takes your shirt, give him your cloak. I'll tell you, because I've thought a lot about this, I mean, obviously, hopefully all Christians have thought about the Sermon of Mount a lot. It's only the most important public address. It's mind-blowing. Right. Whenever people are like, oh, Jesus was a great person, great teacher, you read that and you're like, either he was God or this whole thing is insane.

I mean, because this is not, it's not intuitive wisdom in the sermon on the Mount. Yeah, that's the C.S. Lewis, the, you know, try a limo. lunatic liar or lord you know those are the only options but um anyway so yeah of course i as all questions should i've thought a lot about this and how do you uh because i also recognize in myself i'm talking about how violence can be just just and i really believe that but i also i have a eventual streak in me i fully recognize that yeah me too and when i see evil people i actually i actually do sometimes hate them and hate means like i don't just want justice for you i want you to suffer yes and I want you to burn in hell.

And as Christians, we should never want that. We should never want anyone to be damned. And sometimes I find that feeling in myself. I pray about it. I just have to be honest that I do feel that way about really bad people. But how do you square this? I think that, so turn the other cheek. I think it's very important to notice that Jesus is saying,

if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek. Yeah. What he does not say is if someone slaps your wife or someone slaps your child or someone slaps an innocent woman on the subway, turn the other cheek. Because turn the other cheek in that situation is not you being the bigger man. It's you being a coward. And so that's how I square it. And that's how I can also square Jesus having these kinds of, you know, quote, unquote, anti-violence statements that he made with also, famously. he goes into the temple and fashions a whip.

I mean, that's what the, that's what scripture says. It's not even like he grabbed one. This was a premeditated. This was premeditated. He made it. He made it. Yes. And so he fashions a whip and he starts beating these people to get them out of the, out of the temple.

And that is violent. I mean, think about, it's easy to read these stories and you just read it as a story. We've heard a million times. Heard in Sunday school as a child. It gets kind of sanitized. Well, imagine actually seeing this happen. I mean, Imagine actually seeing it in real life that you're there and somebody has a whip and they are throwing down tables, beating people with whips.

I mean, there's going to be blood. It's going to be a very brutal scene. In the temple of all places. Right. In the temple. And yet, this was Jesus Christ who did it. This was our Lord and Savior who did this act. And so it was and had to be a moral act. And so what that tells us is that, you know, violence is.

is sometimes necessary. Now, the rejoinder to that is, well, that was, you know, God made flesh who used violence, and that doesn't mean that you could do it. Right. And, well, there's also a theme that runs throughout the New Testament where Jesus and his disciple Paul draw a very clean distinction between you as a Christian and the state. So the state is held to a difference.

The state operates by a different code. right, run under God what's gods run under Caesar with Caesars I don't know I'm the opposite

of a theologian I really I really don't know what happens when the state and we're experiencing this right now because I think that

is kind of the answer the state the state has authority from God now it doesn't like that's it's hard sometimes especially for conservatives

to accept that but that's scriptural the state has authority from God now it can reject its mandate. It can do things that are evil, obviously, and it can do things that we should reject, and in some cases even rebel against, in the most extreme cases. So we know all that is true. But the state as like an institution, generally speaking, has authority. This is

God ordained. This is what God wants. He doesn't want us all to live. He doesn't want anarchy, where there's no one in charge. But so the state has that authority. What happens when the state refuses to exercise that authority? And what happens when it refuses to enact justice

and it refuses to protect the innocent? What happens then? Well, you overthrow the state. Yeah. At what point, at what point morally can the average citizens say, well, the state is not doing this? And so I have no choice but to do

it. If I don't do it, then it won't be done. And I think we're getting perilously close to a point where people in mass start saying that. They start saying the state is not doing this. They're not defending my family. They are not defending my community. My community is unlivable. These these violent psychopaths who've been arrested 40 times are running through the street, assaulting women, assaulting children. And I cannot live this way anymore. And I won't live this way. And I think we're getting perilously close to a point where in mass people start saying that. And when they start saying that. Parallously or blessedly close? well perilously because that's not I would prefer that's not the best option the best option is the state does its job when when when the other option is ultimately chaos I mean that's where it leads and but that's where we are I think right now you have like the best version of that are people who are have benevolent intentions and know what they're doing and are good decent people and

and they step up in an extreme situation because nobody else will and they do the thing that the state won't do but they don't go overboard and they don't become Batman and so like Daniel Penny for example I mean Daniel Penny is an example of someone who said okay I got to step in

I got to do the right thing this guy should not be out here he should not be allowed on this subway there should be some kind of cop here to arrest him no one is doing it I'm going to step up and and I'm glad that he did he was right to do it and so that's the

That's the best version. The best version of people stepping in where the state has failed. Did you get a presidential medal of freedom? What happened to Daniel Penny? Well, that's a very good question. Well, he was, they tried to throw him in prison. No, I know. It was a troical question, but it's like, if you see heroism like that and it goes unrewarded,

in fact, if it's punished, then you have a total inversion of justice. And then, and then by- So how was the state legitimate at that point? Right. And by design, when people like that become punished or punished as, I mean, they tried to put him in prison. They thank God we're not successful. But they, you know, they try to destroy his life.

Everybody else looks at that. And I think by design has this demoralizing effect because everybody else looks at that. And they say, well, I don't want that to happen. And now I think, I mean, I don't ride the subway because I value my life. But if I were on the subway and I saw something like that happening, I'd be thinking to myself, well, I hope I would step in. But I'd also be thinking, well, I got a family at home. I got a wife, and if I step in and I go to prison, so now I can't be there for my wife and

children, and so is it right for me to step up and protect these strangers if the consequence is now I can't protect my own wife and children? That's right. I don't know. And I don't even know what the right answer is. I can't even say for sure. If I'm looking at that happening and I'm in Daniel Penny's shoes and I got a wife and children at home, I think the right thing is for me to step up and do what he did, but I'm not even sure

if it's the right thing because I got a wife and kids. And now I've got to call them. I got to call my wife and say, hey, by the way, I might be going to prison forever. Good luck. You know, I don't know. It creates a lose-lose unwinnable situation. Even now you feel that, even after the last election. And clearly there's a reaction against the kind of government that we had.

You still would feel like no one in authority would support you. and yeah generally I think the rot well first of all this is a this is a I mean when we talk about the state in general failing to do the basic things to preserve civilization this is a wide problem it goes to it's the state level it's the local level cities and has all of that been fixed like definitely not I mean not even close well so that that was kind of the that was exactly the question I'm asking and I don't even know if I have you sent out an amazing tweet for recently. Oh, it's right here.

December 4th. I want to read it. It's an empirical fact that basically everything in our day-to-day lives has gotten worse over the years. The quality of everything. Food, clothing, entertainment, air travel, roads, traffic, infrastructure, housing, etc. has declined in observable ways.

You're a nice writer, by the way. Thank you. There's not enough good writing on Twitter. Oh, nice. Even newer inventions, search engines, social media, smartphones have gone downhill drastically. This isn't just a random old man yells at clouds complaint. it's true it's happening the decline can be measured everyone sees it everyone feels it meanwhile political pundits and

podcast hosts speaking of things that are getting worse focus on anything and everything except these practical real-life problems that actually affect our quality of life so have like eight questions there and i'm going to ask you about your core observation is it getting worse clearly it is why are podcast hosts and pundits ignoring this physical reality I don't know. I think that it's a wide group of people. I think they have different motivations. I think for, well, there's the most obvious answer

is that for a lot of these people, pundits, podcast hosts, cable news, all the media in general, a lot of them, I think, are insulated from a lot of this stuff. They don't live in this world. Yeah, that's right. And things like, so for example, we're talking about things that are getting, worse. One thing, and it seems small, but it's not. One thing that's really getting worse is

restaurant food. The food at most restaurants, I'll talk about like chain restaurants. You've got apple bees or chilies or whatever. You order a pizza from one of these places, especially one of these chain places. And the food is worse. And that's not just, again, it's not old man, I am an old man yelling at clouds, but it's not what this is. It is true. It's a real thing that's happening. And you can trace it. You can look at, okay, starting in the early 2000s, all these places started getting bought up by private equity companies. And so now they're run by people who don't care about the product or even know anything about it. So that's happening. Also, it used to be that you go to these places and it's a bunch of like teenagers and college kids that are working there.

And they're just working there to make some money to pay for college or whatever. And that's happening less now. And now you've got adults, you know, a increasing number of like people with substance abuse problems, people who, you know, they're in their late 20s and they're still, you know, they're doing a job that a 16 year old used to do because their life isn't working out exactly as it should. That's its own problems. Like, why is that happening? Right. But, but the effect of that is that even a lot of the people, not all of them at all, but a lot of the people in the establishments that are working there on the ground don't really care that much. about the product. And you can see why they don't care. They're getting paid crap wages. They've got a difficult life. They're working for people who don't care about it. So the guy who runs this, if I'm working at Applebee's and I'm a waiter, and I'm looking at it like, okay, the guy who runs this place doesn't know anything about this. He doesn't care. I'm getting paid nothing. Why do I care? You know, and so I don't care. And so that's happening. And then the quality of the food. It used to be that most

these places made their food fresh. Now no place makes fresh food anymore. They all buy frozen food. There are a couple of food distributors Cisco is one of them that the vast majority of the food that you eat at a chilies or applebees or whatever is distributed. It comes off the same truck.

It's the same frozen food that comes off of the same truck and that is served in all these places, which is why all the food sucks and it all tastes the same because it's literally the same. People don't know that pizza places. Again, everything's frozen.

There's one, I forget the name of it, there's one cheese distributor that distributes most of the cheese at all these different places. And that's like the crucial element of a pizza. And it's literally the same. It's the same thing. And but they're just pretending that it's not. So my point is that this is a small thing.

By the way, it's not a small thing. Right. So it's not a small thing. What people eat is important. Yes. It's quality of life. It's your diet. It's what you eat.

It's, um, and that stuff really matters. now podcast hosts and pundits a lot of them why don't they care well there's two reasons number one they're not eating at these places and if you have money then you don't have to worry about that because you can go to expensive places where the steak costs $85 and it's not going to hurt you much because you got a lot of money and if you have a lot of money then you don't notice any of this because at the really fancy restaurants where people spend a lot of money most of those places are still making fresh food and the service is a lot better

because they're paying better wages to their waiters. Like now you've got older waiters and waitresses, but they're older who have kind of climbed at the ladder. They're really good at this. They get paid better wages. They care about it. Like you go into one of these fancy places. And I like eating it.

I mean, who doesn't like eating at these kind of restaurants? The food is good. But you go into it. And one of the first things you notice before you even get to the quality of the food is that everyone, at least in the good places, everyone that you interact with starting at the hostess stand, seems to be really happy

that you're there and they care that you're having a good experience. That is not how it works when you go to Chili's. So anyway, these podcasts, these people that I'm talking about, they're in those places. And so they're not in the places where the quality is falling off a cliff. And then also, I think that, and this is something we all do, and I do it too, you get caught in this. We're dealing with like national issues all the time. We're dealing with politics. what's happening in Washington and the president and geopolitics and what's happening. We're dealing with these massive big things all the time, if you're a pundit, if you do commentary. And so you can fall into this line of thinking that the things that actually impact someone's

physical everyday life, those things are just too small to worry about. Well, politicians wind up at this exact place. And it's true that because I run into this. When I start talking about this stuff, I will hear this criticism from people. They'll say, why are you talking about this? I did a whole video on my channel a few weeks ago. I did like a 30-minute monologue on why does restaurant food suck. And there are two interesting things that happen after I talked about this issue.

One is that I did get a lot of criticism for people saying, everything's happening in the world you're talking about Applebee's? like why are you talking about this you know it's like how out of touch are you but really it's the opposite it's like no this is this is the stuff that's happening in people's lives but so that I got that criticism but then what I also noticed is that a lot of people watch that video it was like one of the more successful terms of traffic videos that I've done in a while and and it was just about food at Applebee's and why is that it's because it's because it this is like this this is this is your life this is what's happening in your actual life

and it it matters it touches you and and it touches your family yes and this is one thing I notice about um a lot of people in the world that I have always lived in is they either spend time and this is true for me I'll admit it they either spend time in very rich places or in very rural like low-income places but there's no time spent in the middle, which is where the overwhelming majority of Americans live. So it's like only rich people, only poor people, but no middle class people. So they have a sense of like, you know, a lot of rich people have summer houses so they sort of get the, you know, if you're on Nantucket, right? And you go there in the winter and everyone's on drugs.

You're like, oh, wow, you know, fentanyl's a huge problem in our country. But there's no Applebee's. There's no Applebee's in Cambridge, Mass. There's no Applebee's in Nintucket. There's no. Do you see what I'm saying? you just you do get a very I am so guilty of this

in fact so guilty that I really go out of my way to like understand you know but there's no sense of like normalcy yeah it's also in the same way that like the richest people Bill Gates for example are totally focused on curing Africa and in Congo I mean curing malaria polio

they're obsessed with the problems of the poorest while living the lives of the richest but like the bulk of the population is invisible to them. Yeah, I think that's right. I was having a conversation with someone recently

who's in the business and I don't know, I mentioned in passing. I remember why. I just mentioned a passing. I just had been out, I just was coming, I just had been to Walmart.

I was buying something, whatever, I went to Walmart. And this person was shocked that I'd go on to Walmart and they said, I haven't been in a Walmart in 20 years. Because there's no whites in Walmart.

That's the other thing. You drive into like middle America. There are no where, I don't know what happened all the whites, but we'll have to say that. I just notice it. Like, we're all the, there's no whites like a rest area on the highway anymore. Yeah.

And in Walmart, I go to buy sporting clays. That's my only, my only shopping trip of the year, usually. And it's like, we're all the white people. Well, that's part of the thing. It's, I mean, it's a small, it's a small thing, but it's just, it's emblematic of the problem it's like well there's just been total demographic change yeah but but if as a commentator

if you have never been in a walmart or you know it's like well then that's america i mean that's that's that's the that's middle america oh i totally agree so it's just there's there's a basic uh i'm not saying you got to go and walk around a walmart like a safari trip just to understand america i'm just saying that that it's just like that's yeah that's what's going on in america is in a place like that and if you're just never there at all to your point about either you're out in the sticks or you're in the really wealthy areas, then you're not really in touch

with what's actually happening in America. And one of those things is, yeah, when you do notice this, when you go to the places where everybody goes, Walmart is one of those places, the DMV is one of those places, like a place where everybody has to go. Yeah.

Unless they're very, very, very rich. Right. Or very, very, very poor. When you go to those places, you do notice, you start noticing things. And one of those things is like, yeah it looks a lot different now it's it's um it's yeah not not nearly as many white people as there used to be you start noticing those kinds of like yeah like it you know i've never been

a bigot it's prohibited by my religion but i also think there's overwhelming pressure not to notice obvious things and i try to keep myself you know alert just to notice what my eyes tell me and uh that's the biggest change that's an incredibly fast change change, incredibly fast change. It was not an accidental change. It was an intentional change to reduce the white population in the United States. And I've kind of never seen anybody

more passively accept it. And I wonder, like, are we getting a point where we can say that and notice it? And why is that good exactly? Well, for every other, it's funny because certainly for every other race on the planet, if we were to look and see that in their native countries, they are dwindling and disappearing.

Everyone, it would be nothing controversial about saying, well, this is bad. No one would say, well, why is it bad? You know, if, if, I'm not even saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's so profound and abrupt. Well, and I will say, I think it's bad. Yeah. I think if you go to Nigeria, if I were to go to Nigeria and notice that, like,

all the Nigerians are disappearing. Yeah. I would say, well, what's going on here? Everyone's Chinese all of a sudden. Right. That's like that's bad. And if I said that, no one, I don't think anyone would even ask, well, why is it bad? What do you mean why is it bad?

It's Nigeria. Like there should be Nigerians in Nigeria. And it's bad if some other group comes and takes it over. And I think for any other race or demographic on the planet, you can say that for white people were the one race, the one demographic where it's not even just that you can't notice that this replacement is happening. It's that, in fact, we're at the point now where you should notice it and sell celebrate it. It should be seen as a good thing.

So isn't that evil? Isn't anyone who tells me that I'm not allowed to notice or scolds me for noticing? Isn't that person my enemy? Isn't that? I mean, how could you justify? What does that say about your motives? Yeah, I think so. And also, it's, I said it's every other demographic on the planet. Any other species

on the planet? Like, if I... Yeah, it's so true. Where all the condors? Right, exactly. If I, if we look, we get these panics all the time. Oh, all the, um, Amazonian horned owls are disappearing or whatever and they're going away

we have to preserve them. No one even stops and asks like why do we need Amazonian horn? We've got a million other owls. Why do we need these owls? And it's just seen as like well there are a species that existed they should continue to exist.

And so for every other demographic and species of living being we can all agree that if those people disappear that it's bad and white people only one, that where we can't say that and part of the reason for that i think is well there's a lot of anti-white sentiment but also uh so i use the example of nigeria everyone recognizes that nigerians or black are the native inhabitants of nigeria and so if the native inhabitants

go away we see that as a bad thing the the amazonian horned owl is a native inhabitant of the I don't think that exists. I'm just, you know, whatever. But they're a native inhabitant over the Amazon, and so they should be there.

With white people, it's a really interesting thing where what we're told is that white people are not native anywhere. We are not indigenous to anywhere, which is why, and I'm not like making this up,

there is nowhere in the world you can go where the people who are officially recognized as the indigenous habitants are white. Nowhere. White people

How was that not genocidal intent? Well, that's my point. So it's like, okay, so we're not indigenous to anywhere. So where are we supposed to be? Because the other part is. We're supposed to be dead. Apparently. Yeah.

Because we're told that, okay, here's the indigenous habitants. And what's implied every time we talk about indigenous people or just outright said is that, well, this land is really theirs. And so you shouldn't be here. And so what we're saying to white people everywhere is that you shouldn't be here. Well, where should we be? us to go to Mars? I mean, are we going to, like, are we going to Jupiter? Where are we supposed to be? Or do we, are you just going to throw us into the ocean? And I think the answer is that we really shouldn't be anywhere, which is why we should not be embarrassed or afraid to say that the

native, like, Native Americans are white people of European descent. That is true. The people that we call Native Americans now are not Native Americans. And the reason they're not Native Americans is because they did not form a country called America. They are not native. America is a country. It's not just a place. It's not just a plot of land. It is a country. And before America was formed as a nation, this place was not America because America didn't exist. America existed when it was formed. And so if someone can trace their, lineage back to the Comanchee on the Great Plains. Well, that doesn't make you a, you weren't native to America.

You're a native to Comancherea. You're native to this. You're not native to the country of America. The people who are native to the nation of America, the people who formed this nation, were by and large, almost exclusively white people of European descent. they are the natives of this country they're the ones who formed this country that doesn't mean that other people

aren't allowed to live here it just means that they're the natives and again anywhere else in the world there's nothing controversial about pointing that out and we're the only place where we're not allowed to say that but I've been on this I've been preaching this for a while now

I think we should we need not just as a gimmick like I really believe we should reclaim the title of Native American and not to not to denigrate the people that we call natives who I think that they're that's really interesting to read about their cultures and their history

They're amazing people but not native to here They're not native to America And they also were by the way They're also not native in the strictest sense To this hemisphere They didn't sprout out of the ground They came here at some point in the past From Asia

From Asia They fought brutally with each other Over the land All of the so-called natives that were here and had claimed land when Europeans first started showing up in the late 1400s, early 1500s, all of those people

were on that land because they brutally killed who'd been on it before and they raped their women and took their children as slaves. One wave of conquest supplanted the next. Exactly. And the law of conquest

is what determined... No, it's, of course, it's factually true and by the way, it's been suppressed for many decades by anthropologists and archaeologists by the official policy of the U.S. government, but cracking the human genome made it impossible to deny the origin of the American Indians,

which was Asia. Fine. I mean, I really like the Native Americans. I do, too. Personally, yeah, I'm not against them at all. I feel so bad for them. But you're absolutely 100% right. I just find it so interesting,

the coordinated effort to exterminate white people, which is in full flower now, but it's so, you know, it's 1945 is when it started, but it was every part of our society. I mean, I remember at Fox News in the most gentle way, trying to say, you know, maybe all lives do matter or we shouldn't attack whites because they're white, man. That was like the worst argument I ever got in with a senior executive at the network. Like, that's racist. No, it's actually an argument against racism. It's like everybody on all sides was so brainwashed and just accepting this.

And then, of course, it happened. And so I wonder, does it ever let up? It didn't let up in Zimbabwe or South Africa. You, like, take the power, kill a bunch of whites, suppress them. And then, like, 30 years later, you're still blaming them for everything? Will that happen here when this becomes majority non-white? All indications are that it will continue. I mean...

So how do you respond to it? What's the right way to respond? You don't want some kind of race war. I don't want to wake up every day thinking about my whiteness. I'm not interested in my whiteness, just being honest. I don't like thinking in those terms. Sorry, call me a boomer, which I'm not. But I just don't want to, I want to see people as people.

But how do you respond to that? Because you can't allow that. You can't allow people to attack your kids because of their skin color. What the fuck? Right, exactly. I think you respond to it. And I think there has been some progress, actually, in this regard. Probably a significant amount of progress.

You've been a big part of that. way on the right. So thank you. Well, I mean, I think this is one of the things, like I said before, there are some victories that conservatives have had. Yeah. I know some, some of the more dumer-minded conservatives say, what do we conserve? We haven't conserved anything. Well, I'm not saying it's been a, it's been, you know, I'm not saying it's been, we've been batting a thousand, but I think we have succeeded. I think they're referring, I think, well, maybe this is what I think, but I do think they're most referring to conservative institutions. Yeah, which I would agree.

The Republican Congress or some Republican think tank, like those clearly haven't achieved a lot. Yeah, I would agree with that. But so one, so one success that I think that we're starting to see recently is that the, the left used to get a lot of mileage out of obviously not engaging with arguments, but just labeling them. They would just label the argument. And so they would say their way of engaging with the argument is say, well, argument's not, wrong or right. I don't care about that. The argument is an ist or isom. The argument is racist. The argument is is, is, you know, whatever. Bigoted, Islamophobic, whatever. Um, anti-Semitic.

So that they used to, they used to get a lot of mileage out of that. I think what's happening now is that people are, people are saying, well, I don't care about the labels. Like, you can say whatever label you want. Exactly. It just doesn't, it doesn't mean anything to me. And the reason it doesn't mean anything to me is it's not my fault. It's your fault. When you, when you decided that everything fits under that label, the label doesn't mean anything. anymore. Exactly. And I think that's made people more, more fearless. There was a time, I mean, look, you go back, let go back to 2000. Well, certainly 2000, but even going back to 2020, in the throes of the Floyd hysteria. And for a lot of people, being called racist was, it's like the worst thing in the world. They were terrified of it. Oh, yeah. Being called racist was, for a lot of people that was worse than being called like a child molester. I mean, they, they would rather be called anything but racist. And there's all this fear. And I think the race hustlers got a lot of mileage out of that fear.

I think that fear is starting to dissipate. And yet I still haven't seen many people, especially people who spend a lot of time claiming bias against them, coming out and making unequivocal statements against anti-white hate. Like that's the one category. I haven't seen a lot of people say that. Like, no, hating whites is every bit as hating blacks or hating Jews or hating Asians or whatever. hating a group is immoral. I have seen very few people say that. Barry Weiss is not big on that. Why? Like, why can't we just say that? It's all the same. It's all species of the same evil. Like, that's my opinion. I think that's the Christian view. Someone correct me if I'm wrong,

but it's certainly my opinion, and it makes it, it's a coherent argument, but I never see anybody say that. Well, I think it's a lot of that is programming that's been going on for a long time to, to The way a lot of people programmed is that to speak specifically in defense of white people as a group, to say anything positive about white people as a group is just automatically racist. And I think that this, and it's obviously, it's so, it's absurd, but it's ingrained deeply. I mean, this goes back to, I can remember this kind of conditioning in public school in the 90s. I went to public school. I can, I can, you know, we talk about wokeness like it just started in 2015.

It didn't. And maybe it was worse in 2015 than it was in 1993. I can remember it in 1993. And I can remember being in school. And the only time that if we ever talked about like our ancestors or the people who founded this country or anything like that, it was, it was either in an expressly negative way, let's talk about all the terrible, terrible things they did. did. Or if we are going to acknowledge anything good they did, we have to couch it by first saying,

well, here's a lot of bad things they did. They also did this, but also the bad. And so that's been going on for such a long time. But these were, in retrospect, these were the first moves. These were the shock troops of a total takeover and change in the country. Like this was preparation for what we got under Biden, where it's just like, let's just totally transform the demographics of the country in four years. And then no one will feel free. to say anything about it because racism. Right. I mean, it feels that way to me.

I don't know if it was a strategy or intentional, but it was certainly a coordinated effort maybe unconsciously, but like it wasn't an accident, and it happened in every white majority country, and that's why there won't be any white majority countries really soon. And so, like, what was that? I kind of wish I wasn't white in saying this because it's like, it's not self-it.

It's, first of all, it's curiosity. Like, what the hell? You almost never see anything happen globally that's that similar in countries that aren't that similar. Like, the United States is not that similar to the UK or Canada or New Zealand, Australia, but exactly the same thing happened

in all of those places. Much worse in a lot of those places. Yeah. Oh, if you visit those places, it'll just break your heart because the people are broken. But... In Canada, they are...

Well, Canada is not even a country. Right. It's not in the country. And they are, they are overwhelmed with guilt. They are so... Well, they're murdering. The government is murdering tens of thousands of its citizens every year. They're almost all white. And now they're going to be doing it to kids. And by the way, under the maids program, they're harvesting the organs. They're harvesting the organs from the Canadians they kill. So it's like the darkest thing. That's like I would feel much freer and safer living in China than Canada. I can't believe I'm saying that. I actually love. but that's happening and no one's saying a word about it yeah well that that in particular is one of those things that it's so dark and so depraved that when you talk about it i think a lot of people especially in america they think you're making it up or you're exaggerating i almost don't talk about it very often because i don't think anyone believes it but i live right near canada and i know and i'm like the only american who really sincerely loves

canada because it's just so beautiful not the only but not many people care about canada i do so I know a lot of Canadians, and that's absolutely, you'll look it up on the inner tubes. It's there. It's becoming one of the leading causes of death. Oh, it is one of the leading causes of death. It is assisted suicide. I mean, just thinking about it. The government killing you, and not because you have ALS, but because you can't pay your rent,

and then extending it to children, and then harvesting the organs and the blood. I mean, I feel like there are way bigger threat to the United States than Venezuela. I would be open to an argument in favor of invading and occupying Canada on human rights grounds. I'm not joking even a tiny bit. I think it's one of the darkest countries in the world. And it's such a great country with such great people. I don't know how we can allow this to happen without at least saying something about. I'm not actually arguing for military action, but like maybe threatening it.

They're way worse than Maduro. Way worse than Maduro. Way worse. So like, but I'm sure I'll be scolded for. How can you say that? Because it's true. Yeah. Well, the made program alone is one of the most evil things happening in the world, period.

Murdering your citizens and harvesting their organs on a greater scale than China does, really? And it's right there? I think one of the things that's happening. Why are people ignoring this in America? Well, one thing, it's people, it's like not your country. So you think it doesn't affect you. I think it does affect us. Also, like when you look at Canada and Europe and these guys, we're on the same kind of crazy train.

they're just a few train cars up. And so that's why you've got to pay attention to where they are because we're going to be there. So that's one thing. Yes, thank you. But I think that also for some conservatives in this country, there's some embarrassment about this because they, I think there are plenty of conservatives who've been at least indifferent to the issue of euthanasia and have even kind of, I've had many arguments with so-called conservatives over the years, not as much now because you see what's happening with made.

but over the years with saying that well you know because they get hung up on this well it's a personal choice and they just think as conservatives you just you cannot oppose a personal choice you just you can't do it and and it's it's it's it's kind of a libertarian instinct gone way haywire in my mind and and so they're but now you can see now those of us who have always been against so a desperate person has free will is that what they're saying? And that's the problem. These are children. They don't know what they're talking about.

And also, and also, so those of us, those of us who were opposed to it, we have been saying for years, like, this is where it's going to go. Okay, yeah, right now they are. And the other argument for euthanasia was, well, these are people who are in terrible pain and they're at death store. They've only got days or at most weeks to live anyway. They're in horrible pain. You have no idea what it's like.

and so they should be able to they should be able to have a way out and and like from emotional level I get what you're saying I totally disagree with it I get what you're saying

our argument was a few arguments but the big one was okay that's what we're doing it's already evil to do that even with someone who's terminally ill they're doing that now though

it will not stop there because it never stops there and once you give the state and the medical establishment the authority to kill, they will not stop. It always starts with the most justifiable version of it that they can muster, which is still totally unjustifiable, in my view.

But they always starts with the most justifiable version. And then next it's like, okay, yeah, but we should include people who maybe they're not terminally ill, but they're chronically ill and they're a lot of pain. And okay, now we've included them. Well, what about mental illnesses? Well, what about this person over there? He's homeless.

Yeah, he's not terminally ill, but his life has no meaning and he's terrible. He lives on the street. and then you know step step step and eventually you're killing kids too but we've seen this we've seen this and by the way i'm older than you and so they were still teaching this in schools when i was a kid but the the the nazi experiment began with euthanasia famously and it wasn't just on a small scale it was like hundreds of thousands of people killed and it began well the down syndrome like how could your life be worth living and then it wound up with dietrich bonhoffer in the warsaw ghetto like this was a very clear, much written about continuum that began with murdering the weakest. And then

again, you know, it ended where it famously ended, which was with mass murder. But Hitler was famous for his euthanasia program. He was also famous for like rounding people up and moving them to new places. Like is now openly being discussed in Gaza. It's like the whole thing is so bonkers and it just tells you that human evil is not specific to any group or time or place. It resides in every person. Every person is capable of this kind of behavior, justifying this kind of behavior, and we should all be on guard against it. But like, Hitler was very famous for euthanasia. Did you even learn that in school? No, certainly not. So funny. Things change. I was in first grade in 1975.

And that was like a feature of it. You know, he was bad because he killed people on the basis of, like, their DNA. That's not allowed. And he killed the weakest, not allowed. And I guess they stopped teaching that. And the other thing is when you give, when you give the medical establishment, when you accept the idea that death is a treatment, you have opened the darkest door imaginable. Yes.

And this is what's so frustrating is that. What are often decried as slippery slope arguments, people talk about, oh, it's a fallacy, slippery slope. First of all, slippery slope is not a fallacy. It's not a fallacious way of making an argument. All we're trying to show you is that, okay, here's a door you've opened. You've made an argument to justify something. And what I'm trying to tell you is that I can take that argument intact and use it to justify this thing over here that we both agree. is horrific. And so if I can do that, what that tells me is that what it should tell you

is that either your argument is bad or the thing you're arguing for is bad or both. And so that's what the slippery slope thing is. And that was the point with euthanasia. Once you allow the medical establishment to use death, murder as a form of medical treatment, you've completely flipped it on its head because the whole point of medicine is to heal and treat. And so to avoid death and pain. Like that's the point of it. And now you flipped it upside down.

And you've said that death is the treatment. And so now you've just destroyed the whole thing. You've destroyed it. But this has happened. I think that almost all obstetricians are required to commit abortion during their training. Yeah. Well, that's right. So then you wind up with an entire medical core that's evil.

Yeah. Yeah. Like there are a lot. of evil doctors not just a few but a lot evil and or I mean this is the same thing but they have to be very indifferent to human life which is evil so but did you realize I did I certainly didn't realize it really was the COVID Vax and the lack of COVID treat the intentional lack of COVID letting people die rather than treating their symptoms which happened extensively across the

United States that sounds like these people aren't just wrong They're like the worst people. The physicians are the worst people in the country. And for all the nurses, sweet nurses, I love nurses, sorry, who like stood up and like, this is wrong. Almost no doctors did. A few, a few, Mary Talibodin and people like that, but like not a lot. And I was just like, our doctors are evil, not just mistaken.

They're bad. Do you feel that? I think a lot of them are. I mean, certainly obviously not all of them. not all of them right yeah but but like not 5% right exactly we're like 70% well and how about also there's abortion euthanasia COVID you've gone to but then also something that I don't think we should just drop and move on from because speaking of justice there has not been justice for this which is that for years we had the entire medical establishment unanimously almost telling us that

the best thing to do with a young boy who's a little bit confused about his identity is to castrate him. And they were doing that. They were doing that to thousands of kids. They were chopping the breasts. They're still doing it in some places. But it was certainly happening at scale for a long time. They're chopping the breasts off of 15-year-old girls. And to your point, it was not just like a few doctors.

There's a lot of doctors that were involved in it. A lot more doctors supported it. and a lot of other doctors who maybe didn't like it, but they didn't say a word. They did not speak up against it. This is some of the most insane, barbaric Frankenstein bullshit that the world has ever seen completely unjustifiable. No one can argue in defense of it.

It's one of the craziest things that's ever happened in the history of the planet. It's hard to hear this even because you're right. Right. And it just went on. And the way that the advocates for this, the way that they argued in favor of it, because obviously they couldn't make any substantive argument for castrating kids, what they would always say is, well, look at all these medical establishments. Every single one of them is in favor of it.

And they were right. They all were. All of them. What's so crazy is that, you know, female genital mutilation, which is, you know, universal in a few countries, I think Somalia is one of them, but was very frowned upon. by feminists and also by me as a lover of women and it was a feature of debate on cable news shows like most of my life as a cable news debater FGM you know we do a segment on FGM or whatever can you believe they're doing this and like nobody would defend it you know we'd look far and

wide who will defend female genital a clitorectomy like who would defend that and you know our bookers tried really hard but there weren't many all of a sudden no one mentioned it again And that's because they started doing it. And it's just a reminder that you don't have to be Somali or a Nazi or any specific group to participate in evil. Like this is a human problem. And the second they stop talking about how what other people did is bad, it's probably a tip that they're going to start doing it themselves, right? And it's also a lesson that it's very easy. I mean, look, nobody wants to admit it now.

but at the height of the trans madness, and I don't mean to talk about it totally in the past tense like it's over, it's not. But we are past the height of it. It feels that. Thank God. But at the height of it, no one wants to admit it now,

but almost everyone on the left supported it, vocally so. And most people on the right told themselves or insisted that it's not worth saying anything about, It's not that big of a deal. It's totally right. That's exactly true. This is a cultural war side show.

And so what that tells us is that it's actually very easy for people to convince themselves to go along with the worst evils that are even conceivable. No, that's totally right. It's very easy to convince yourself. And partisanship is not a good guide to that. As you just said, yourself, a lot of people that are on our side, like, I don't want to do. with that. Yeah it's it's well because what you have are I mean usually this is not how it always works out but um you've got the really evil thing being promoted facilitated by the left whether it's abortion or euthanasia or whatever else and then you've got cowardice on the right

um refusing to speak up against it until it's very safe to do so you know and then and then everybody does and that's why it's also been on the trans issue it's been interesting over the last like year year and a half to have uh people coming out of the woodwork like very very boldly saying you know men uh men shouldn't be in women's sports like yeah thanks for that like i could have you could have used that six years ago well because this was one of those issues was you and a few other people just changed it it wasn't congress it was you made your movie um and you wouldn't stop talking about it and there were a few others, but they were all in the Commentariat. They were all like in the Pundit class.

It was not, there was no like U.S. Senator who led the charge against this. Some followed in the end, but it came from outside the system, I guess is what I'm saying. Right. So that kind of shows among other things that the Commentariat, which is insufferable, even as I say this is part of it, does matter. It matters, actually. The opinions you see on all these podcasts, like they over time do change things, clearly. So to circle back to where we began, how is this current conflict, the intra-right conflict resolved?

I don't, I don't know. If I knew how to do it, I would do it. If I knew how, if I knew how, how to solve it. If I knew how to bridge the divide and get everyone on the same side again, I would do it. I've tried in my own way. I know. I have not been successful. I have tried. You're like the last person with a foot in each world. It's interesting. And I, and I, I value that. Like this is, for me, this is what people have to understand. I try to take it personally, the insults. I mean, when you're in this world, you get insulted all the time.

You do? you have to have to have thick skin there are certain attacks against me that I should not admit this but I will that do bother me like they do like what okay you opened it you open the door so well charges of well when people say things that just aren't true like and I it happens all the time and it's it's the one thing I should be the most used to I guess I am but it just pisses me off really it it does because I'm the opposite it's only the true attacks that upset me. I don't know. Yeah, it shouldn't. But when people are,

I see someone, you know, make a claim, especially if it's someone, it doesn't have to be, but especially if it's someone who I kind of know and it's not, but saying something that says, it's not true. You're ascribing motives to me that it's just, it's so, it's just the exact opposite of what is actually true. And you're not even asking me. You're not reaching out. You're not giving me a chance to speak for myself. Who did that to you? And I, here's I was the thing. I talked about loyalty before. I'm so devoted to it that I have people I consider friends who have been attacking me publicly. And I still don't want to attack the back. Welcome to my world. I still don't want to name you. Do you feel like there's a connection between the degree

to which you've helped someone and the vehemence of the attack? I've noticed that in just in my life, I'm not whining and I agree with you. It's I hate why not being attacked. I'm being threatened. Someone shot at my house. Like, I'm never going to. say that okay though it's true but I have noticed that a lot of people I've helped are like on the front lines of attacking me or calling me names they know aren't true Nazi and I feel like there's a connection it's not random it's like if you've helped someone maybe they resent you for it I don't down yeah there there might be some of that I mean there's there's a there's a lot of things first of all everybody's very emotional like yeah yeah and I try to keep that in mind too

people, I try not to do the thing that pisses me off so much people to do it to me, which is ascribing motives and say, well, you're really doing this because of this. And I think sometimes people do, a lot of people do have ulterior motives, clearly. And people are scheming and they're playing games. And also, by the way, we live in a space like, this is a business. And people do this for a living. And so there's also just competitiveness. No, it's right.

And that happens. But then at the same time, people also get just pissed off and they get emotional. Well, that's definitely true. And that's happening on all, so I recognize that. Like some of the, so that's why some of the people that go after me publicly even feel I consider friends. And I'm like, yeah, my phone number, you can call me and you're not. And I try to understand, like, I do my, maybe it's for my own sanity.

I try to be as charitable as possible and think like, well, they're just, they're wrong, but they're really angry. And they've got this whole story about me that's not correct. But that's what's happening. They're just pissed off. And I've been pissed off before and said things I regret. So I think a lot of that's happened. To go back to the question of what to do about it,

well, I guess I don't know why I'm going back to it because I don't have the answer, but I think the only thing that can be done is for all of us, if you're on the right, to go back to some of the basics that we talked about at the beginning of the conversation. Like, what is it that we want? Exactly.

What is it that we actually want? What's the real catechism here? What does it mean to be on the right? Exactly. What are we, it's the classic question about conservatives. What are you trying to conserve? It's a good question. You should be able to answer that. You should be able to answer that. What are you trying to conserve? And everybody has asked themselves that and come up with an answer. Write your list, write it out if you have to, whatever. Come up with your list. I'm going to do this. This is my calling right here. And everyone should have their list. And then we should compare notes. And if our lists match up, like we want the same things. We're trying to conserve and preserve the same things. Then the only way we forward is with that is for us to realize that like let's let's reorient towards that make make that the goal and and remember that even when we disagree we're going to have disagreements but we're only disagreeing about how to do this thing that we both want done and and and uh and i think that's the way forward now on the other hand maybe you start looking at your list and you and you realize that

i actually don't even want the same things as these people okay well then we're not on the same And that's very clarifying, too. I think that there are people. That's happening in my mind. I'm like, we don't have anything in common, actually. I thought we did, but we don't. Is that happening to you? There are certainly some of that.

I think that there are definitely people who just don't don't want the same things at all. They don't have the same fundamental goals. I think that's certainly happening. And that's part of the clarifying. That's part of the... Is that bad or good? Well, clarity is good. clear i think i think we need clarity um but for me like i said i the only person and i believe this

holy i try to live by it the only person who can speak to your intentions is you the only person who can tell anyone what's in your mind is you and so if someone says to me that's why i try to interview people right so exactly you're allowed to speak for yourself and so i've given my list of what it is that i want to conserve and preserve uh can you Can you just, can you, in an abbreviated form, just run through it really quick one more time because I think I agree with it. Abbreviated is always in trouble for me. Well, no, you don't have to abbreviate it, but you just say it again.

Like, what are the thing, you're saying there's left, right, what even, I don't even know what that means anymore, but like, people who share your values believe what? They believe in objective truth. Yeah. Okay. They believe in truth. Number one, that there, that there is a. that there is a truth.

Okay, I'm going to write this down. And hold on, hold on now. Okay, objective truth. Yeah, objective truth. Whether or not there, can I just add one caveat? I'm not always convinced I know what the objective truth is. I've certainly been wrong, but I know it exists. Right, exactly.

And that's exactly the point. We can disagree about what the truth is. We're going to have those disagreements. Right. But we have to be able to agree that there is a truth to begin with. And when you're talking to someone who's a moral relativist, they're on the left, You can't even agree on that. So there's no conversation to be had.

We cannot even have a conversation. And that is the problem. That's our problem in our culture. And even above the truth, the reason why there's an objective truth is that there is a, that there is God, that God, that there is a God. There is God. And he has designed the universe and everything and everybody in it. and that's the source that's the wellspring of truth you know that that's why there is a truth because god designed it a certain way and so it is like that's the fundamental bare bones truth

is that god has designed it this way that this is that this is god's universe and that is the truth so um so i think that's number one yeah that's number one and then what do we try everything flows from that everything flows from that what do we try but in a America as American conservatives, what are we trying to conserve? We're trying to conserve American identity, our national identity. We're trying to conserve the institution of the family, which is the foundation of the country and of civilization. We're trying to conserve the institution of the marriage, which is the foundation of the family. So this is the foundation of the foundation.

Which is the foundation of American identity. Right. And we're trying to conserve all those things. And then at a broader level, we're trying to conserve Western civilization itself. Which grows from, so if you were to sum it up, you could say objective truth derived from a belief that this is all created. We are not the creators. Exactly. And the family, the family unit, husband, wife, children, which is the basis of all human civilization.

So, objective truth, family? Yeah. I think that's... If I were writing this on my hand for the test, okay? Yeah. Probably in here so the teacher couldn't see it. It would just be objective truth family. Yeah.

And I would also put national identity for, you know, we're talking about American conservatives, which is what we're talking about. But then the question becomes, like, what's that? Yeah. Well, that's a, and that's also a debate, in a sense. I think there are some basic things. But, but again, that's like, okay, as long as we agree. That we need one? That we need that, yeah, we cannot.

So we have a culture, right? We need to have a culture. And multiculturalism cannot be the cult. That's not a culture. There has to be a unifying set of beliefs or customs that keep the country from breaking apart, otherwise it will break apart. So and that's the point. So the things there, if we, if someone looks at that, like that's, I'm speaking for myself and not just myself, I think a lot, but, but that's, that's my North Star.

And if you look at that and you say, well, I want the same things. Like I, I, I, I, so I'm fighting for. Then you are on my side, period. Like we, we are on the same side. And we'll have a lot of arguments, again about how to do that, how to achieve that. We have a lot of arguments about it. And those could be like fruitful arguments. Those don't have to be angry, nasty personal arguments. They could just be discussions, you know, as adults. And we'll do that, but we're on the same side.

However, if you look at that and you say, you know, well, I don't need, I don't believe in any of that. Like I don't, well, I don't believe in God. I don't like truth. You know, we all have our own truth. The family, I think the family. family is like, you know, marriage doesn't matter. We don't need the family. And a lot of people feel that way. So, fine. You're allowed to feel that way. We're not on the same side at all. No matter what else you believe. And then I might agree with you on. Then you might go on from there

and say, yeah, but I really think that gun rights are important. And I think we need to restrict immigration and I want to abolish the income tax or whatever. I'd agree with you on those points, but we're not fundamentally on the same side. It's so smart. I don't want to blow anyone's but I you know travel a lot talk to people for a living you would be amazed by the people I know who agree with you vehemently on and sincerely on those two points and they're not all on this on the right at all which is kind of interesting so it does feel like this is a there's like a true realignment happening now I just know in my own life the people who reach out to me in some cases are people you would expect in some cases they're not all people you would

expect and they're just they're hearing the same music and they're motivated by the same impulses and that is one a belief that we are living in a world we didn't create these rules aren't ours it's it's basically the nature argument like you can't ignore nature because you're not in charge of it you cannot ignore natural law because you didn't make it because god made it a and be in the end your only true protection is your family and your deepest connection is to your family and that needs to be protected above all, which I think is a variety of what you were just saying. The people who reach out to me who believe that,

man, it would blow your mind. So I guess what I would say is it feels like a lot of our politics is artificial. It's inorganic. It was these divisions in some cases are real. In some cases they were created in order to get us to not see that we have a lot in common with. other people. Does that make sense? I think so. Look, and if someone

the words left and right are labels that we put on things. Well, people have always said that, but I never really believed it. I was like, that's bullshit, but... It's just it's a way of categorizing and organizing things, so we can speak about them coherently.

But sometimes the labels that we use, you know, we have to shift it over. There might be people who so but like anyone who you've talked to who we would say is on the left who agrees with all that well then i would say they're not on the left well i agree you know they they might they might they might even think they still are but they're not um and so they're uh they're they're over on this side and uh you can kind of call it whatever you want i'm saying right conservative

we could come up with any team team name we want i guess what i'm saying is that your side is bigger than you think it is. Yeah, maybe. For the, during the, when we're talking about the trans issue, and I've sort of talked about the teams, what I've come to, what I've come to call the side

that's against all the trans madness, is team sanity, you know? Yeah. It's just, we're forced sanity, like on this issue, we're sane people. And fully acknowledging that on that issue, there were people who,

I don't agree with them like anything else, but are saying on this I can think of some of the I used to have this woman on oh I really liked her I don't think she ever liked me at all I can't remember her name she was a radical lesbian feminist

and every she would always come into the studio on the trans issue years ago and she was like I could hear her thinking I can't believe I'm in the same room as this monster but we were so aligned on it and I always wondered Like, why did she care?

I mean, we must have been more aligned than either of us realized if she cared that much about it, right? You must have dealt with a million people like this. Yeah, yeah. And this is a conversation I would have sometimes because it's very strange bedfellows. I would find myself aligned on that issue

with some feminists, like far left feminists. But the radical ones. Yeah. But the point I would try to make to them, I think mostly unsuccessfully, is that, okay, if we agree on this, that I think, like, if you can see the truth on this, then I think we should agree on a lot more, you know, I think. Well, that's my instinct, too.

Right. What would they say? Well, for me, I'm not the guy to make an argument to feminists. They're not going to listen to me. There might be someone who can be kind of the... I think you could convert a few, Matt Walsh. I don't know. It's my track record would say otherwise, but...

but the point is that like the argument I would make to them is that actually I know you call yourself a feminist the reason why we have this problem is because of feminism feminism is actually the root of this problem and so if you agree with me on this then I think really you are critiquing feminism so you're not a feminist

get it together come over here and they didn't find that that was that was mansplaining you know they weren't that was definitely they weren't like ready to run to the page patriarchy after that no no that's a shame so here's my last question and again it begins where we began which is the fact that you're like at the center of all of this I really do think you're the last person on the right you know the official you know well-known official podcast right who has you know a foot in two camps and so it's just the pressure on you I've

just noticed it has been almost unbelievable and you've bore up under it in so impressively but how do you keep yourself from becoming a hater when you're under just relentless assault and not just your views but your motives your character when people you really like or your friends are denouncing you and most people live an entire lifetime without that experience it's an unusual experience and it can drive some like totally crazy like they become foaming at the mouth haters how have you avoided that uh maybe the honest answer is i have not avoided it well, but I, but I, but I, but I, but I, but I, but I, but I, but I, but I, but I, but I, but I, the real, the the correct answer is prayer. I mean, you know, you have to have a rich prayer life. Yes.

And do you. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I think, I, I think, I, I think, like a lot of people, you kind of go through waves. I go through and, and, and, and then I, I go through, and here's what happens with me, and I think it's probably relatable is that, I think, and I think, I think, I think, and you're really frustrated and stressed out, and things are not really working out how you want them to. Your kind of prayer life can dry up too, because that starts feeling.

Everything just starts feeling kind of dry. Everything starts feeling like nothing's working, no one's listening, you feel frustrated. No one in your life is like hearing what you're saying, and you start to feel like God is not hearing you either. And it's just this kind of frustration. And then it snowballs, you know, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy,

because now everything, Everything's feeling, everything feels kind of dried up and frustrated. And so that's what happens with your prayer life. And then everything gets worse because of that. And so those are the moments where you have to be very intentional and say, I'm really annoyed and frustrated. I don't feel like praying. I don't even know if God's listening.

He's always listening. But in a frustrated moment, you feel like he's not. And that's when you have to realize that and then reorient yourself and become, you know, and for me, when I have those moments, I've found that, just being more structured. Like sometimes you have to, like anything in life that is good. You have to kind of force yourself to do it. Sometimes you have to get into a habit.

What's your structure if you don't mind? Well, I think there's, you set up a time for prayer in the morning. Like you set up just times. This is my, this is my time when I'm going to pray, you know? Yes. And hopefully it's multiple times a day. But, and when you have a really rich prayer life and you're in a good flow, It's like you're a constant prayer.

It's like it's a constant, it's a constant state of going to God, even if you're not on your knees. Rejoiced in everything, never stop praying. And I think that, you know, things like your physical posture when you're praying, that can matter. And especially if you're going through a dry spell in your prayer life, I think like actually kneeling, being on your knees does matter. And you can pray without being on your knees. but it can kind of help to orient you in the right way and it's kind of your body telling your mind something, which is that you are submitting yourself,

like you're on your knees. You are submitting yourself to a power that is greater than you. That's why you're doing this. And so you're reminding yourself that there's someone greater than you who you are appealing to. And so I think stuff like that can help also. How much time do you spend on X?

too much meaning like way too much I don't know what effect does that have not not good I mean it's also hard for me

because it's my job and not like my job it's like a not like there's a I have to punch in the clock and go on X but part of the job is to be clued in

and I'm also creating content every day I do a show five days four days a week now and so this is where the conversation's happening This is where all the sort of content is, all the things I want to talk about. Yeah. I also use it as kind of a,

you know, it's like I'll start a conversation on X and then I'll talk about it on the show and it's just kind of this feeds off of each other thing. But the problem, and all that is good, and I'm glad that it's there for that reason, but the problem is this stuff sucks you in. Like, it just sucks you in. Because I bet I'm just

guessing you're not into, say, pornography or cocaine or... Not at all. Zero percent. I knew that. Zero percent. So, like, for a man like you, you're not, you know, you don't, you're not ruled by your addictions, but do you feel like X? Well, it's weird.

Here's the weird thing for me. It, the amount of time I spend on it sometimes would seem like an addict. However, when I go on vacation and I say, like, I'm leaving. I'm not going to be doing a show. I'm out of the I'm going to be out of it. I'm not paying attention to anything. And I go on vacation. I put the phone down.

I have zero desire to pick it up. I don't even find myself like, ah, I got to find out what's happening. I put it down. I'm on vacation. I have no desire. In fact, it's the opposite. When I come back, I have to force myself to like get into this again.

And it's ridiculous. I'm like forcing myself to tweet because I got to get in the flow to do the job. and so that tells me it's not really an addiction it's something even worse I guess because when I have the chance to walk away from it I so eagerly do it's like my soul telling me like you got this this is what I actually long for is not this I think that's a really good sign I think it's a good sign do you feel like when you I'll tell you I feel when I go on it because I know so many of the people who are tweeting their opinions it's like seeing all of your acquaintances naked, I feel like people reveal so much about themselves. And it's like,

wow, you don't look great naked. I mean, I never really thought about you naked, but now that I can see it, you should put some clothes back on. That's the feeling I have every time I go on there. That is a, that's an interesting way of putting it. And I think that's true. I mean, that's, it used to be, right, if you were like a prominent person in some field, if you ever gave your opinions publicly. Depending on the field, you might never give your opinion publicly. But if you ever did, it was like in a structured, it was a very intentional kind of way. I try and stick to that. And now we have, it used to be like, it's hard for people for kids these days to realize this, but it used to be that we would have all these like famous people

and celebrities. And most of them, we never knew what they thought about anything. We had no clue what they thought. We didn't even know what their personalities were. We only saw them. We only saw them because they were throwing a football or because they were acting in a thing or whatever. And now, yeah, we just know everyone's opinion up to date on every little thing. So whoever thought that, I mean, if you told me 10 years ago that like all the people in charge were thoroughly banal and conventional at best, but they'd nothing interesting to say. They never thought about anything ever. Like Hillary Clinton had not a single thought in her head.

And that some guy called Orrin McIntyre, whoever that is, would turn out to be, you. you know, or you, or like all these people who 10 years ago were not, they're very far from what we might think of as a public intellectual, all of a sudden they're purely through the force of their ideas and the clarity of their expression, we're kind of defining the terms. That is a huge change. It's totally disempowered the Puba class, and it's given rise to this like genuinely interesting, bubbling conversation. Like, at best, do you feel that?

Yeah, I do, which is why, I mean, we talk about social media, talk about X, and I don't want to talk as though I think it's a overall, like nothing but a negative, because I do think it allows. Oh, totally. No, no, it's a mixed blessing for sure. Yeah. So, and that is true. Like it allows, and it obviously has created a situation where the institutions that used to control the conversation completely now, now don't control. it at all and they're like they've shown that they're just not impressive that like in the true and fabled marketplace of ideas they're like a rummage sale actually yeah they have nothing to

say but like who would buy that crap it's just not once we see it in its entirety once the mystique has been stripped away they have nothing to offer like they're just totally pedestrian and then these right i mean do you ever see random twitter accounts you have no idea who this is, it's not someone who's anyone's ever heard of, making a point that's so profound that, like, you can't get it out of your head. Does that ever happen to you? Oh, definitely. I was just thinking, I saw, I don't

remember who the guy was. But yeah, I read it, I read a tweet a couple days ago, and it was this lengthy, like, really well-written analysis of something. I can't even remember. But it's like a random Twitter guy. I don't know who that guy is. Like, what? And in a way, it's kind of sad, because I read that, I'm like,

well, I don't know, this guy is a philosopher. He should be in a different age. No, but affirmative action has kept them all out. So this is what, this is where they went. So you're like, well, you know, we don't have a meritocracy anymore. And the smartest, most impressive people literally can't get jobs or grants or into college. So like, what are they doing? And they're sitting there tweeting.

Yeah, tweeting these like morsels of incredible wisdom in some cases. No, truly. Yeah. And the, but this is, as I said, mixed blessing. The problem is that in between the morsels of great wisdom, you've got nothing but just slop and hate. And all this, right. And so the best thing we can do is things like keep your prayer life alive and control. You say if you have self control and how you interact with this, one of the worst things.

And everyone does this. I do it. I think it's the worst habit that almost everyone has now. I'm sure I do it too then, if it's a bad habit. The first thing you do when you wake up. in the morning, is check your phone. I don't do that. Well, then you're in better shape than I am and a lot of people.

Never. That is like the worst. I used to, that's like having blueberry pancakes for breakfast, which was a habit that was very hard for me to break. But once I did it, I realized that framed my whole day in the wrong way. Have you started the day with blueberry pancakes? I have. You can't get past it.

Everything in your day is defined by. blueberry pancakes. Why? Because you're longing for the... Yeah, you're hungry all day. You feel shitty. You're lethargic. Like, just don't eat till noon and everything is better. But I grew up in a blueberry pancake world, like 100%. Blueberry pancakes and a cigarette. And that's not a good way to start the day. And I feel like social media are even worse than that. Just do the cigarette. Don't do the pancakes. That is... I can't say this on... That is still a great way to start the day. I don't care what anybody says. It's just a fact. Yeah. But whatever. Sorry.

Totally kidding. Starting the day by looking at your phone is so horrifically bad. I do it all the time. Actually? I do. I shouldn't. That's like the one thing you can't. Just don't do that. That's easy just like, because you use it as your alarm, right?

Yeah, my phone. Yeah. Of course. Everybody does. I do too. We don't allow phone usage in the bedroom except for the alarm. That's like ironclad rule. Just get up, get a cup of coffee, get your face in a Bible, or just stare out the window, kiss your dogs. Anything but that. I totally agree. In fact, just this morning, I woke up, first thing I did is I checked my phone. And I went on X.

And it was just in my feed. It just happened. Like the first thing I read, I just opened my eyes 30 seconds ago. The first thing I read was like, in my feed, something popped up. and it was like, Matt Walsh is a coward. I'm starting my day with that. Like the first thing that enters my eyeballs. What are you doing?

I don't know. And then I put my phone down. I'm like, why did I do that? You're in a hotel room, though, right? In a hotel room, yeah. Because there's no chick there. That's why it's so important to be married. That is, yeah, that's true also.

Right? And there's no kids, like. Totally. Yeah. Matt Walsh, some of us, probably not a huge group, but some of us are just kidding, really appreciate what you're doing and your clear thinking and your self-control and especially your summation of what actually matters. So thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you.

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