The Tucker Carlson Show - Rev. Billy Cerveny: Satan’s Attacks, Transgenderism, Seeing the Supernatural &Hearing God’s Voice

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

“Want to know what God loves the most? Watch what Satan attacks most aggressively.” The Rev. Billy Cerveny on spiritual war.  (00:00) The Moment Rev. Cerveny Heard God's Calling (08:20) The Uniqueness of the Relationship Between a Father and Son (22:32) Why the Devil Targets Marriage (55:30) The Truth About Transgenderism (1:01:16) What Did the Garden of Eden Look Like? (1:11:38) How the Devil Sows Confusion and How Christians Should React to It (1:25:36) We're Being Lied to by Our Leaders The Rev. Billy Cerveny is an Episcopal priest, writer, and musician based in Jacksonville, Florida. A graduate of Trinity College and Covenant Theological Seminary, he serves at St. Mark’s Episcopal Church, where he leads The River, a contemporary worship service that blends the ancient traditions of the Episcopal Church with modern expressions of worship (5 PM, Sundays at http://www.smjax.org). Before entering ministry, Rev. Cerveny worked as a journalist, author, and songwriter, touring internationally and releasing several studio albums. Cerveny is also the founder and Executive Director of Redbird Ministries, a nonprofit whose mission is to reach out to the world and back into the church with the hope and healing of the gospel. Through Redbird, Rev. Cerveny has ministered to professional athletes, journalists, politicians, pastors, and priests. He and his wife of 21 years, Charla, live in Jacksonville, Florida, with their three children (Emmy, Wiley, and Scout) and their Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Lolly. Follow Billy on Instagram (@billy.cerveny) or X (@billycerveny), and listen to his music on Spotify or Apple Music. You can also hear Billy preach at The River every Sunday at 5 PM by tuning in at http://www.smjax.org. To learn more about Redbird Ministries, visit http://www.redbirdministries.com Paid partnerships with: Mars Men: For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off FOR LIFE, free shipping, AND 3 free gifts at Mars Men at MenGoToMars.com American Financing: NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org. APR for rates in the 5s start at 6.327% for well qualified borrowers. Call 800-685-5696 for details about credit costs and terms. Visit http://www.AmericanFinancing.net/Tucker. Curativa Bay: Take your health back into your own hands. Get 15% off at https://CurativaBay.com/TuckerBattalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver at https://battalionmetals.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We've been close friends for almost 40 years, 39 years since the mid-80s. And I would say you were the, I didn't imagine you as a priest, I would say. That makes two of us. Then about a month ago, your godfathered one of my children, you performed the wedding ceremony for that child. Awesome. One of the great moments of my life. How did you get here? Like, I don't really know anybody who's had more jobs, vision.

I thought you were going to be a philosopher, a country music star. Well, brother, if you had told me when we met and we first started hanging out that I'd end up doing what I'm doing now, I'd have told you you got hit in the head. Oh, I'm aware of that. But, you know, God has a sense of humor and a profound sense of irony. And, you know, over the years I'd spent... It's true, though, it's true. And it's a picture of his grace.

You know, I spent a lot of my years as a journalist and most of my professional life in the music business. But I was living in Atlanta years ago when I just started playing music. You remember those years? And I was living in this sort of converted greenhouse, a 400 square foot apartment that the floor was still slanted to where they'd water the plants and the water would still run out. And I remember I had just gone into the music business. I'd given up a lot to do it, and I was not in a good place, and really asking a lot of questions. Like, God, what is this? Like, who am I?

What is this supposed to be? And I remember that room became a monastery in my life. And God sort of grabbed me by the throat, as I like to say, and just kind of peel back the curtain and just began to reveal things to me about who he was and who Jesus was that, that I had heard my whole life, but they just never made sense. I mean, I grew up in the church, my father was a priest. I was a bishop.

He was a bishop. He was a bishop of Florida. And, you know, it's like, you know, it's like walking around your parents' house and you see fine pieces of furniture that you just walk by so many times, you don't notice them anymore. That's kind of what faith became to me as a young person,

at least the language of faith. And words like grace and forgiveness, And I had just heard it so much. I just couldn't understand the implications of them until I went off to college. And, you know, that's where we met. But, and those were the prodigal years, man, you know. Fair. Yeah, very fair.

The prodigal was a wimp. We really went for it, no. But we really did. But God was faithful in all that time. But through the journalism and into back up to Atlanta, I remember living in that apartment and falling on my knees and just saying, Lord, either you are who you say you are or this is the biggest lie perpetrated on humanity. And I'm going to go with the you are who you say you are. And he began to teach me the truth of forgiveness and the truth of grace and what it meant to walk in Jesus and that what it meant to be saved and what it meant to have a relationship. with him and to have a soul that was worth far more than trying to satisfy it with success in music or, you know, success in whatever field it was. And I remember sitting there thinking to myself, God, you're this good. Like, are you this good? Are you this good? And just feeling him in my heart just nodding silently with me. And I knew in that moment my life was different. I didn't know what was going to look like.

And then when I moved to Nashville, I played music for a bunch of years after that. But during that time, the Lord just kept taking me deeper and deeper, and I started getting involved, used the music to go into ministry. And I did a lot of work with a ministry called Young Life. And I did a lot of summers were, you know, talking to kids about the gospel. And during that time, I met my wife out in Colorado. And it was obviously a life-changing experience. And she's wonderful.

and we began asking a question like, hey, what is, what does God have for us? Like, where is he taking us? And the concept, the idea of seminary for me, I mean, it's like I said, you knew me. And, you know, that was completely not in the cards. No, and the context is even bigger. From an outsider's point of view, like you are the son of a great man of a well-known man, a big figure. was at his funeral this winter and it was packed a packed cathedral I was a big

big man you look exactly like your dad which is also kind of weird I hear that and now you are dressed exactly like your dad so it's like that's kind of a

I don't know it's weird to be the son of someone like that and you don't think you're going to wind up being that thing right? Yeah no he was a great man

but that is part of it you know to grow up in that and to watch my dad He was a bishop, so I'd watch my dad process wearing a mitre and all that kind of, you know. But he was just my dad. Yeah. You know, so people said, what was it like growing up under that?

I don't know. I didn't know any different. And but I do know that, you know, spiritually as I grew and, you know, my father, you know, like any son, no, cobbler's son has no shoes, right? Exactly. You think, you know, I'll figure it out on my own and you leave. but as I do what I do now and I look back, I'm humbled by the life he lived and the wisdom he had. I love my dad.

And as you mentioned, he died a number of months ago. And I have such tremendous respect for what he went through now that I'm in ministry. I look back and I'm like, how did you do it? How did you pull this off? How did you hold a family together? How did you, you know, sit in the chair that you sat in and lead a church in the way that you led a church with all the things pulling on you.

And when you have an adult perspective, it breathed a lot of humility, right? Have you retroactively assessed your childhood and said, oh, I wish I'd been more grateful? Well, you know, the thing about, so my father was an Episcopal bishop and the Episcopal church is very eclectic, right? And so my house was this revolving door of different people.

So like one weekend we'd have, you know, a monk come stay on our house. And another week we'd have some high church bells and smells Anglican. Another week we'd have some, you know, charismatic, you know, praying in tongues on our floor. And I remember, you know, sort of getting older and becoming a little self-aware and asking you the question, like, what are we, man? Like, what is this? You know, but it was this beautiful pictures in hindsight of the family of God and just how diverse it was and how many expressions that was. And that was an invaluable experience.

And my dad, he loved people very well in that way. He led people very well. And I tell you this, there's very few times in my life, or many times in my life, I should say, that I would be somewhere and I would introduce myself to someone. It was not uncommon. Some of them doing your last name is Servanty? And they'd pull me aside and say, your dad, you know,

telling me something that he did for me. And I'd be in some random state or my mother, who was, you know, partner in ministry with him who's an exceptional one of the rare people in the world this is true and uh but that really really impacted me just thinking one from my own lens that we want to live lives that are impactful not just things that we we don't want to just accumulate we don't want to just you know try to attain whatever mental picture of successes but what does it mean to leave an impact that where you leave a place or you leave a person or you that you say hey

hey man, these people are impacted with the gospel. And my dad did that for sure. How would you ever wake up and put on your collar and think, wow, I've like, I guess all middle-aged men realize I've become my dad, but, I mean, you literally have. There's a lot of times where I will, it's, again, it's surreal.

You know, I think being a priest or doing this, I think he probably had the same experience. You're never, there's never a moment where you're not, at least I hope not, you're struck by the irony of it, or you know what I mean you put your collar on and and you you think to yourself like Lord you really are calling me to do this because I know me you know I know I know the way I am I know my you know the internal realities for me I know where I've been but that's you know much

like my dad I think that was very much in front of him most of his life too he would always say you know what he did and where he was was just a was a poster of God's He was a poster child for God's grace. And I never fully understood that until now that I'm as an adult as a minister. I'm thinking to myself, absolutely. It's a picture of grace. It's got to be one of life's greatest blessings to really come to understand your own father. That's something that most men never get.

It's true. That's something all men carry. Oh, yes. It's been a lifetime wrestling as their relationships with their dads. Who was this man who was the center of my world? Yeah. who at this reference point. And I think the, you know, all of our lives,

especially as little kids, you grow up looking at your dad as these superheroes and these guys that wear kind of a red cape. And then there's this moment that you catch up with them. And then you realize them and then you see your parents' humility,

or humanity. Yes. And you look at your dad and you see that, oh, you're, you know, you're this paradox of greatness and brokenness. And I think the real, where the coin dropped for me was when my dad began

to be able to share like, these were the struggles of my life. This is where it was hard, and this is where God met me, and this is where he just owned his humanity in open ways and- Directly to you? Yeah.

That's pretty wonderful. It is wonderful, and I think that's a really freeing experience for a son. It's a rare experience. Very rare experience. Oh, yeah, it's good. I think that, you know, his father, You know, you have children as well.

And especially when you have a son, you know, look at your son, it's like staring in a mirror. And then there's moments where they look at you and you realize, oh, they're looking at me, asking me what it means to be a man. And you have those moments, these sort of moments of existential horror

where you're like, I'm not sure I know myself. Yes. Right? And so most of us do our best imitation of what we think manhood looks like. And then we come to this place where, you know, I believe that, you know, to be a true blessing is, you know, our job as parents is not to create this picture where our children have to draw this perfect representation or duplicate what your version of manhood is.

But the best thing that we can show them is, hey, this is what I, this is, this is my version of manhood. And this is where I've screwed it up. And this is where I've erased it. And this is a picture of God's grace. My job as a dad is not to show my son what it means to be a perfect man. It is to be to show him what it means to be an imperfect man in relationship with a God of grace and to walk in ways that are, I think, hopefully nobly and honorably and that reflect the goodness of God, but also reflect the humility of someone that knows what it means to need a Savior and to say,

look, we're not perfect. And let me show you like this is where God has stepped in and moved in my life. This is where I've blown it. And this is where I've done okay. But at the end of the day, you know, we all fall on the mercy of God. And I think that is a gift that we can, like I said with my own son, that's a gift that we can give our own children. You know, and the same way my dad gave to me towards the end of his life. So the phrase dad bod is obviously a grave slur.

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I think it's the heaviest most complex relationship in any man's life with his own father. Oh, I don't think anything comes close. You know, we always talk about or I always talk about how difficult it is for men and women to understand each other because they think so differently and they express themselves so differently and it's the great joy and frustration of marriage trying to figure out what the other person is saying. Yeah. But I don't think it compares to the father and son relationship. And that is hard and poignant, the communication there. I think it's, you know, as men, we all, we have these sort of core longings that God hardwired into our hearts. You know, one of them is, you know, be part of something that's a story that's bigger than me or to be in

relationship with other men or to, you know, feel known or seen and loved. But one of them is, I think, foundationally is this idea that we were created to receive the blessing of a father. Yep. Period. And you read the story of Jacob, like Jacob and he saw where Jacob steals the blessing of his brother. And the whole picture of his life is him going on this journey trying to, to satisfy a heart that has been denied this blessing of his father, who, you know, who showed preference to his older brother. And he had stolen the blessing, which, you know, that was meant for his brother, and it ended up poisoning his life.

And he goes, he amasses wealth, and he gets wives. And he comes back, and there's that famous scene in the book of Genesis where he's sitting in the woods and the angel of the Lord comes out. And he begins to wrestle the angel of the Lord. And they go, and, you know, Jacob pins him. And the angel reaches out and dislocates his hip with just the touch of the thigh. And in that moment he realizes that I'm not, I'm not wrestling a person here.

But he's also realized that this is a picture of unrestrained power. And rather than him giving up, he says, I'm not going to let you go until you bless me. I would rather, paraphrase, I would rather be torn limb from limb than to go from this moment without the blessing of a father. And that's where he changes his name to Israel. But I think it's a picture of our hearts

that we need that in a way that is foundation. Totally agree, you know. And the problem is, the rub is, and the problem for my children, and yours and all of our children, is that, you know, I'm an imperfect man. I can't provide that blessing in the full way. You know, I can't provide the fullness of it.

But like I was saying earlier, that's part of the way we do bless them, is that we let that we encounter them as adults and as they get older, we begin to show them the realities of our humanity and we point them towards Jesus and we do that together, and that becomes a profound gift to our kids is they encountered the blessing of God the Father.

I know that approval is just part of a blessing, but it's the part that people understand immediately, the approval of your dad, like, good job, son. Oh, yeah. That's like everything. It's true. Well done, good and faithful servant. Amen.

Yeah. Amen. So speaking of wrestling, there's a phrase that you hear a lot, you never used to hear, until about maybe six or seven years ago, and now it's on the lips of every podcast. and that's the spiritual war.

You know, the famous Ephesians quote, we fight against, you know, flesh and blood, but against principalities and you're the preacher, you know the quote. Yeah. What is that and what are its manifestations? The spiritual war. Yeah.

That's a small question. I like to start narrow. Yeah, thanks, yeah. You know, we live, you know, on this side of a curtain. You know, we live in this temporal world, you and me and the rooms we're in but you know we all think of ourselves as spiritual beings that's a real common thing that people say but you know we were fashioned by god as spiritual beings to be in relationship with him and there really is this this curtain that behind which there is an entire

unseen realm that is God and the host of angels and all that. And the, much like here, it's a, it's a world that is in rebellion as well. And, you know, the irony is that the world we experience now was, was never meant to be separated from that. When God created all things, he created heaven and earth to overlap. He wanted to walk with Adam during the cool of the day. He wanted man and you know as his his image bearers were to be in relationship with god in a very tangible way but because of the way that you know because of sin and the brokenness of the world there's this this separation that occurred but i think now there really is a spiritual battle as you quote but you said you said behind the veil behind the curtain the things we can't see the unseen realm

is god and angels but it's not a civil war i mean there there's terms there it's war right it is that's what the way scripture describes it and so who is the war between i think it's between god and uh you know the father son and the holy spirit and you get the creative god i think it's just in the way that god spoke all things into this world into being he also created a heavenly host and you read that story in the book of genesis with the serpent in the garden right you know genesis was where heaven and earth overlaps and man walked with god as we said a second ago but you see you this you see the beginning of a divine rebellion there you see this this sort of mysterious serpent figure which is you know we later learn as this the satan figure and he rebels against god because he's he's he's

pridefully want to be equal with god and if he's going to attack god if he wants to unravel god what's what's the first thing he's going to do he's going to attack his plan but he's going to attack his image bearers right and that plan that you yeah people and that plan that you see that he hatched in Genesis 3, it's still a plan that's happening now. There's a, you know, our war is not against flesh and blood, but it's against these principalities and these powers and these things that come and they weigh heavy on us, you know, he's a deceiver and Satan, Satan, and his, and his henchmen, his demons and the demonic forces. And it's very real. Home ownership has always been at the center of the American dream. It is an actual asset, a place people work their entire lives

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Americanfinancing.net slash Tucker. So we're the same age-ish, of course, we're in the same college class. I didn't grow up in a world where that was considered real at all. And most people, I mean, you probably did because you were son of a bishop, but I'm not a son of a bishop, and I just never even imagine any of that was real. I thought God was real, but I didn't think there were actually like evil forces floating around unseen, impelling people toward self-destruction. I just didn't believe that. Now it's like the most obvious thing ever. It's obvious to you. I think it's obvious to like everyone I talk to, but self-selected group, of course, but sure. I mean, what is, what is the old quote? You know, the greatest trick the devil played is to convince humanity that he doesn't exist.

Yes. And I think that's part of, especially in America, you know, we don't live in a very, you know, we live in such a binary, you know, culture where, you know, we don't, we don't think in terms of that, generally speaking. We do more recently. But, uh, materialist culture. Yeah, materialist culture, well said. And, uh, but how does that play out? Yeah, what are the manifestations of it? I mean, you can see even on a large scale, you see it in the destruction of marriages. You see it in the, you see it in the, you see it in the, you see it in the, you see it in the, you see it in the, you see it in the, you know, the pornography, you see it in, you see it in, you know, addictions, you see it in things like that. I find that I see those kind of attacks happen in the areas most egregiously, in those areas that God values most. So you want to know what God loves the most, watch what Satan attacks the most aggressively. And what does God love the most? You look at the creation story and all those things that God set in motion in the beginning, marriage and ideas of masculinity,

and gender and, you know, the role of humanity in the world, us being, you know, God's image bearers to create a kingdom that reflected his glory. Wait, I'm going to ask you to pause. So let's just go kind of through the list, forensically here. So you said marriage number one. I mean, not these aren't in a certain order, but I'm just kind of riffing it. Yeah, but the ones that come to mind. Yeah, marriage.

And then that's explained as part of God's creation in Genesis. Yeah, it's part of his creation mandate, you know, be fruitful and multiply. He created, you know, when you read the story of God creating man, he creates Adam out of the earth. And, you know, it's, and he, you know, he empowers him and he brings all the animals in front of him. And, you know, after each creation day, you hear God say, he says, what? He says, it is good. It is good. Yeah. It is good.

And the only thing that you read about in the creation story that God says wasn't good was man's aloneness. He says, it's not good that man be alone. And so what does he do? He brings all these animals and there was not a helper that was suitable for him. No. The dogs came close, I think. I don't know if it says that.

Then he puts him to sleep and he pulls the rib and he makes woman, he makes Eve. And there's the, you know, you hear this is the first song ever written in creation. Anytime you read the Old Testament and you see, you read the text and all of a sudden you see everything's indented, it's either poetry or a song. Yes.

And the first words out of Adam's mouth were bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. I mean, he was smitten. But this was God's, you know, marriage was not a human invention. I say that at every, every is part of our liturgy is the first thing I say. And as I'm explaining marriage at a ceremony in our liturgy's, it wasn't a human invention. It was God's idea.

And it's something that, you know, was honored cross culture, Christian or not, people, you know, it's something that's played out. But it's the seed from which, which, you know, so much goodness flows, children and family and, you know, a missional relationship into the world where you love others and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it was God's idea.

He loves the idea. He loves it so much that, you know, the marriage image is used throughout scripture, even the second, you know, when the new heavens and the earth come together and we finally, you know, the God rolls up the script and, you know, the end is constant,

he describes it as a wedding banquet, you know, and it's a beautiful picture. He talks about marriage is this picture of, that he gives us to be a picture of Christ's relationship with the church and the way that husbands are to love their wives, the way that Jesus loved the church and the wives to respect their husbands, but it's this, it's this beautiful image. So to say God, that's something God values would be one of the vast understatements. of the decade. And that is why I think Satan attacks it so viciously. So you see it constantly because you're obviously a priest. You give sermons to do the Eucharist, but you also are a pastor to your congregants and people in your church. Yeah. And you talk to them a lot. So in general

terms, how is marriage under assault? I think marriage is, well, to begin with, marriage is hard because you have two fallen people that come together and, you know, make all kinds of demands on each other. But I think it's under assault and the idea that just the idea of marriage is under assault. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean, just the notion of, if you look at Europe, or I don't even know what the percentages are, but people aren't even getting married over there. Yeah. The divorce rates are off. the chain, you know, and then just the idea of what marriage is. I don't think people see it in light of the larger story that we were just discussing, but that's sort of on a macro level. But when you talk

to people, you talk to people who desperately want their marriages to work to be happy, to continue, but they're struggling with it. What are the things that you hear? Where are the moments where you feel like this is a spiritual attack on husband and wife? Yeah. I think spiritual. social attack, it takes, you know, I always say this is, you know, Satan attacks us in all sorts of ways. But the most nefarious ways is when he, he seeks to deceive us, right? But the most defarious ways that he whispers in our ear is most of the time he whispers in our own voice, right? And he whispers to us, and we, it's this self-talk that we engage in. And, you know, again, I don't understand the mystery of how this functionally works.

But it stokes the embers of selfishness of our pride. You know, to steal a quote, as Tim Keller so famously said, you know, if you want to know what your biggest problem in your marriage is, is selfishness. And it's always going to be that. And it's this journey of two self-oriented people learning what it means to die to self.

And what spiritual attack looks like in that, it's through selfishness and it's through our own pride. and that can bubble up in a lot of ways. It can bubble up through adultery or it can bubble up through people having, you know, secret lives or pornography addictions or just people lose inside of each other, you know? And it's so easy.

I mean, you know, you have kids, you've lived a life, you know, how difficult it is in marriage to stay connected and how people can, you can stop talking or people, and that's part of the discipline I don't know how people do it. I mean, people with kids at home, once kids leaves, you're like, I don't know how we managed to stay married.

No matter how much you love the person, you don't have time to talk. Yeah, yeah. And it's a challenge, man. It is a discipline. One of the more common things when people come in, I do a lot of marriage counseling. People will come in, and, you know,

inevitably one of things they'll say is, you know, we just have a hard marriage. And I'll sit and I'll listen, and I'll say, dude, you just got a marriage. like marriage is hard again it's it's two fallen people learning me to come together and find out you know what does it mean to love you and to pursue you and to lay down my life for you and love love you more than i love myself as it said in Ephesians five you know what does it mean you know husbands love your wives like christ loved the church well how did christ love the church

it wasn't clinging to his you know his authority and you know hammering his points home though you know there were moments right but it was really laying his life down and it's a great picture that we think of like

what is love and marriage well it's a lot of things but one thing it's not it's not fair right if you want fairness go get a business partner but if you want to love someone in marriage the question is hey how do I

when I feel wrong or I feel hurt or I feel in a place where I feel unseen, like what the world would tell me is I have every right to not love you anymore until I get what's mine. But what the Christian called to marriage, especially for husbands, is no. Yeah. You know, you play hurt and you continue to love and you still move forward and you and you still, you know, wash feet and you still love your wife. And that's the call.

And it's a call to, it's a, you know, again, to lay your life. life down. And it's ironic talking about marriage and speaking about it in any authoritative way, because it's topics like marriage or topics like prayer. There are topics that you riff on, but you never really feel like you have a handle on it. Right. Right. Like, sure, let me tell you my wisdom of marriage. But it's, it's because I'm like, you know, you're always daily because, and that's how you, I think you keep a humble posture. But I've never had any problem with humility having three daughters, but it just kind of is baked in, you know. No, it's true, but you know, but you never feel like you have, you can wrap your arms

around it fully because it is a mystery. And it constantly requires a humility, which, you know, you've known me a lot of years and that's not something I come by naturally and most people don't, but, but it's also gods, I would say the profound gift of marriage is it is the crucible with which you uh god uh transforms your lives if you let it you know and ironically it is those those moments of of brokenness and restoration where those transformations come from uh tend to happen the most of course it's the crappy things you're grateful for and it's those places too that you know i've seen marriages to i've seen marriages to i've seen seen marriages shattered by adultery that have, because of the willingness and humility of the two

people to invite God in the middle of it and to listen and to walk, I have seen those people emerge with marriages that they'd only dreamed they could have. Actually? Oh, 100%. 100%. Like full-blown cheating? Yeah. No question.

And they would both sincerely say under polygraph, I'm happier my marriage than I've ever been. No question. Really? Yeah, God works all things together for the good of those who love them. And if you let them, if you're willing to do it, I'm, don't let me sugarcoat it. It's a brutal, and I would never suggest that as a journey.

No one wants to go there, no one wants to go there. But for those that I've seen marriages heal in ways that you couldn't imagine for such egregious pains and so many egregious pains and I've seen marriages disintegrate for far, or less because people aren't willing to walk in and with humility and look at themselves. And they're just too busy pointing at the other person. Everybody knows that bleach is powerful.

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It's like it's always someone else's fault. That's like the default setting and certainly in me. Yeah. Like I'm just, you know, all that, you know, I can't believe they did that. It's just the idolatry of our hearts. And the part of that idolatry is my own self-image. And the thing about idols is this, you can never see your idols until they're smashed.

And there's no better place to smash the idolatry of self than in a marriage. Because, you know, where you're like, well, I think. And, you know, no. I mean, your wife knows your, your wife is the most dangerous person in your world. That's for sure. Because she knows you.

And you're the most dangerous person in her world because you know her. you know her wounded places, you know where she's strong, you know where she's weak, you know, her insecurities, you know her sense of humor, you know, all the things, so you can either, you know, a few words from you, I mean, if you came to me and said, you know, insulted me in some way, you know, it might hurt my feelings and, you know, we're really close friends,

so, you know, it would kind of run out of time. I think it wound you pretty bad. You, but if my wife said the same thing. Oh, dude, I'm with you. I would be, I wouldn't, you know, it would be strong. You can't get out of bed, right? You know, you've become it in. So, but it just shows the power you have over.

No, she's got a loaded gun. There's no doubt. But you also have such a tremendous power to bless one another and to raise one other. The way I say, like, you see the glory self and the other. Like, what does it mean to see who God is trying to call forward and to draw them forth? And that's hard, man. That's especially hard in conflict where you're sitting there and you're at odds and you, you know, you're angry or something like that.

And of course, when you're angry, you feel justified or otherwise you wouldn't feel angry, right? That's kind of the foundation of anger is our self-justification. But the discipline and the spiritual maturity in that is how do I still reach in there and see that glory self with that person and draw them forward

and to see them as a child of God as someone that I actually love as someone who's precious and it's very hard to remember. I have a picture of my wife. I have a picture of my wife of hers. She's probably three years old. It's a cute kid, beautiful. And it's stuck in my Bible in Psalm 139,

which is the Psalm about, you know, you're fearfully and wonderfully made. I wove, knit you together in your mother's womb. And it just talks about the glory of creation. And I do that on purpose because that's what I need to remember in our marriage. It's the thing that at any moment, because I love her deeply. And I want to love her.

And I want to, and it's really important that in order to do that well, you need to consistently see the value and the glory of this person that you're inextricably tied to at this point. Amen. Yeah, I agree. You mentioned pornography as a threat to marriage. It's like one of those things, I think we're just like maybe 10 years too old to really under, or speaking for myself, to really understand the magnitude of it. how often does pornography arise in marriage counseling is a huge problem oh man i think it's hard to overstate how pervasive it is now if i meet with a man like take marriage counseling out of it just just men in general i i assume that's in the mix until proven otherwise

Actually? Yeah. And that's not an indictment. But I just, it's so pervasive. I'm safer to assume that's the case that that's somehow part of the narrative than, then it's not. Because it's, you know, we walk around with these little, you know, Apple porn boxes that people have in their hands, you know, and they, and, you know,

could you imagine being a teenager now? A teenage boy growing up where, you know, the greatest, temptation in your life is literally three button clicks away at any moment. And what that's doing to the hearts and minds of young men and what is doing to their concept of marriage and what that's doing to their concept of sexuality, you know, we're Gen X, you know, something like you and I came along and you want to do something like you had to work for it, you know, that's not like that. It is literally force-fed to these young men. But you're only telling one half of the story. The other half is Tim Cook's a billionaire.

So there has been a big upside to this. Yeah, if you're Tim Cook. No. It's crazy we haven't had a revolution. I pray it's coming, but I don't think that will ever happen apart from revival. I think that's right. Because it's got a, and it's, it's, again, not to belabor the point, but I think what that does, I think going back to what is spiritual warfare, you know,

how does it play out on practical levels? I think that's a profound evil. is trying to, A, you know, anything, you know, the earlier you can damage someone sexually, just think about what that does. That is so real? It's so real.

Totally. Just the way that plays out. You get stuck in patterns that men do anyway. I don't know about women. In human sexuality, it's malleable. What? It's not assigned at birth. Yeah, well, it is, and it isn't.

In the sense that it is, what I mean is our sexuality as we live it out, you know, our sex is a sign of birth. gender is a sign of marriage. It's obviously a God breathed, you know, holy call. And, you know, when we talk about things like pornography and the abuses of pornography and things like that, it's really easy to get to start, get your wheels caught into this sort of dark, melancholy aspect of it. But, you know, you got to flip it over and first see, like, you know, the glory of what God designed when he designed human sexuality, when he called people and created man and women to be

sexual beings together, right? It's a glorious, it's a beautiful thing. It's a, it's this, In fact, people often criticize Christians and saying, you have such a low view of sexuality. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. We have such a higher view of sexuality than the world. This is a fire, but it just needs to be kept into the fireplace. Right, it's not a consumer product. No, it's not a consumer product.

It's not an adult playground that we just go. Yeah, that make Tim Cook rich. But it has profound spiritual impacts for us if we cut against the grain of how God designed us for that. So when we talk about what you said, you know, you were asking about, like how does that spiritual warfare play out in our world and our life and practical boots on the ground level,

like that's a perfect example. It's the assault on what God values, you know, the marriage and the human sexuality because it knows that, A, if you can twist that, it will turn us full. inward it turns us we become full-blown consumers we become a slave to appetites and we become and I think the again going back to the the beautiful thing that you see is that when the Lord heals in that place you see so much you see just the power of redemption and that and

watching men and women be restored and feel like they're washed clean, that they're not shameful or objects of shame. And it's a beautiful thing that God has blessed me to be a part of as I've walked through that. So what is it, so pornography was sold, internet pornography, and I kind of remember this. I was married by the time the internet arrived,

but I remember- We're old. Well, you're old, but I feel fairly young. Yeah. Spry, thanks to my consumption of alp nicotine products. Product blood. No, we are old. But there is some advantage in that, and you sort of remember how things were sold

when they first arrived on market. And I remember people saying, well, this is going to be the end of rape and sexual assault because there's a healthy outlet for sexuality in the form of pornography. People said that. I mean, I remember when they said that. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

I don't remember that, but I just... Well, the internet would make us free and inform us when actually, people like don't even read anymore and like we're surveilled constantly. So let's, we're going to put this fire out by pouring gasoline. No, I totally agree. For the last 50 years or so, oil has been priced pretty much exclusively in U.S. dollars. It's called the petro dollar.

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gold, having it shipped to your home or stored for you. That's why we started Battalion Metals to give Americans an honest, fair priced way to buy precious metals. It's not a scam. You know exactly what we're making. It's like three points over spot. Battalion Metals.com slash Tucker is the address battalion metals.com slash tucker to learn more but i just didn't really think about it at the time um and at all but uh or really about anything we're thinking about at the time of my life but anyway fast forward 35 years like what damage does it do so you're a married man who's got a porn habit why is that bad like in practical terms how does that divide you from your wife and family We spend the next three hours talking about this.

Well, just give you five minutes. I mean, no, in simple terms. One, it twists your view of sexuality, and it twists your view of your spouse. And what I mean by that is, you know, people say, oh, it's the objectification. Women, people say that all day. But it truly does do that. And, you know, women, you might not know this. Women's sexuality is very different than a man's.

What? Yeah, that's right. And, you know. They just get drunk and horny and hook up with random people. They're not big, dumb animals, right? And it doesn't mean it's less important for them. I agree. And God fashioned it for, and that's another cliche that people say,

you know, sex just means more for man than it does for women. Actually, that's not true. It's not more important for a man than it is for women. Men just go about it differently. And for a man to understand the value of it for a woman, it requires us to slow down and to have that conversation and understand it and to listen in a way that we aren't naturally wired to do or we don't feel like we can do it.

Right? Yes. You agree with that? I agree with that more than almost anything I've ever heard. It requires us to slow down. That's the number one. Absolutely.

My father always said that. Slow down. Your dad was a wise man. And that topic, he was wise. Yeah. I am. So, but yeah, so the first thing that it does is it twists that, right?

It presents these women as these caricatures of male sexuality, and I think that's not fair. And I think it does a tremendous amount of damage. That's one. Two, and again, this is not an exhaustive list, but two, it's, it pushes men into isolation and, you know, porn, pornography addictions or hidden sexuality. These are things that men, you know, they don't do out in the open. They, you know, they do in secrets. They do it in, and they do it in private, and they don't tell anybody about it, right? And the number one tool that Satan will do, use is isolation.

Yes. He will push men into the shadows because what happens there, that's where shame can grow, unfettered. And that's where, you know, people feel broken, more, you know, more perverse and where they become more broken and become more perverse, which makes you feel more. And it's this vicious feedback loop that begins to occur. pursue men, you know, they think they're, you know, it always, you know, it's interesting, that always starts with, oh, I can handle this. And it becomes this sort of, you know,

I'll smoke a cigarette a day, but the, you know, pornographic version of it. But before they know it, it becomes a consuming thing in their lives. And so it drives them into the shadows, which creates isolation, which creates shame, which creates, you know, a, you know, a false sense of self as you walk into marriage. And what is marriage? Marriage is, as it was designed, you read, you know, Genesis chapter two, what does it say? He made right after the passage of, you know, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. It says they were naked and unashamed. That they stood before each other. That's about sex, but that's also about a spiritual heart posture that man and women have in front of each other that is all that I am, all that I, you know, seen and unseen. I am,

I am here before you. That's right. And pornography goes to war with that and pushes men into the shadows. And women, too, by the way. It says this is not, I mean, it is certainly more dominated by men, but what we've seen over the years

is that this is something that women contend with as well. Easier for me to talk about because I'm a man and probably holds more credence, but it's very real. So, you know, creates caricatures of, what sexuality is, creates caricatures of women. It screws up your sex life, doesn't it?

Yeah, so it, and the other thing is what we said again. You know, our human sexuality, our sex drives, they're malleable, right? And you feed that into those sort of, those, you know, perversions or those, you marinate in that kind of stuff. It will take you places you don't want to go. my father when I was little said to this is so over the top but I was going to say it. It was my favorite

line ever. I never say it because it's so over the top but I remember driving in the car with him and he was telling you were like 8 and 10 or something and something about pornography came up and goes yeah it's a really bad idea. It makes you perverse and he said your sexuality is like

a grain of wood. So if you take your fingernail and run it along a kitchen, a wooden kitchen table it gets deeper with every pass. and he said if you get into that my father's very pro-sex but he goes it's a dark road

and you keep getting it gets weirder and weirder and weirder and the next thing you know you can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume that's what he said I have no idea what that means

but it stayed with me for 45 years like a chicken costume your dad had a chicken costume I don't know no he did not have a chicken costume he was very proud of not having a chicken costume

but he got That's hilarious. I think he may have phrased it that way. It was just so evocative that it like never, I wish my brother was here. He would confirm this. Like, I never stopped thinking about. I knew your dad.

I believe that, 100%. I know your dad was awesome. Your dad was awesome. You can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume. Anyway, so, but that's the kind of what you're talking about. I do. I think it takes you, again, it takes you places. It's, it's the law of diminishing returns.

Mm-hmm. Right? Thank you. Thank you. It's like, okay, you need a, this amount of heroin to begin with. And before you know, you quadrupled a dose. And it's all about the dopamine hit.

You know, it's the same, their sexuality is no different. That it, when it's taken out of context, when it's taken into those places, when it's used in a way that God did not intend it. Like God, God's design for it is not to be prudish and to keep you from having a good time. Of course, right?

I mean, it's the idea of like, how can this flourish and become something that doesn't, that is life producing and literally, but also that breeds intimacy between a man and a woman, that breeds connection between a man and a woman, that breeds a sense of just wonder and awe and just beauty, right? And that was his design for it. And when you step out of that boat, man,

like it does everything I just described, it does the opposite of that. You know, if there's one thing I could tell young people, it's protect that with all that you are because the world is lying to you. It's lying to you about, you know, the frivolous, oh, it's no big deal. No, it is a big deal. It has profound spiritual implications for you.

It has, it has, it can take you places that one day you wake up and you say, I don't want to be here and I don't know how to get back. Right. There is, and the good news, I'll say this if you have, they have been there and I've seen this over and over again, you know, oh, you know, it's, I'm damaged goods now. No, you're not. Like this is, God uses the broken things of this. world. That's right. And he is, I mean, I, I, the places I've been, the places you've been, the things

that we've done in our lives, like, we're, God, God is all about the prodigals. And there's no, there's no one that is beyond redemption and healing. And God loves to restore that because God loves that, right? It ain't fun, right? It's not a place you want to go. But if that's where you are and that's what you've done, it's okay. There's a God of grace that the reason, you know, Jesus doesn't, you know, see that and that's why Jesus steps back from the table.

Actually, that's the reason Jesus came because we misuse sexualities. Because we, you know, we're bathed in our own shame because we make bad decisions because we're so committed to our own self-destructure. That's why he calls himself self-destruction. That's why he calls himself a savior and not a, you know, a self-help guru. Because I need a savior. I need someone to reach down and pull me up and save me from me. Yeah.

Right? It's not just, yes, there's a, on a theological level, he saves me from sin and he washes me clean and my, you know, my standing before God and all of those things, which is deep and profound and eternal and, you know, worthy of reflection for, you know, thousands of years. But when you boil it down, you really came to save me from me, you know, from my own devices and where I would go. I mean, you think of the number of things that God has saved you from that you're not aware of. Yeah, there's a long list of things I am aware of. Right, right. But so think about how dramatic the thing, how dramatic the list is that he saved you from that you didn't even get to see. Right. And, you know, even the way he's restrained your own appetites in those places that you didn't even know, you know.

And so, yeah, going back to your question. I do think pornography it's evil and it's done so much damage and you know as you said I think there's going to be a I don't know what the word you use like a revolution against it but I don't think that's ever going to happen until

we have an actual revival again which man do we need that but we have to we've lost the plot and you lose the plot in sexuality you're talking about that you lose the plot of the gospel story the creation story and your story story just kind of becomes about your narrative of,

uh, my sex life, then, you know, it becomes a very dangerous thing. But when you read it in light of like what we're talking about, you took, you know, we've just kind of touched on it, but you read the Genesis story and God's creative intention for that stuff. All of a sudden, you become invited into, into this larger epic tale that becomes about something so much more.

And what, again, your soul is of so much more immense value than you ever imagined it was. And it's to be, to be a part of something that's so much, more incredible than anything that you could ever cobble together on your own. Why wouldn't you want that? Right? You're the person who put the gender stuff in context for me when this first happened. People questioning whether gender is real, you know, sex distinctions are real. Yeah. It's been going on for 70 years, of course. It's the core premise of second wave feminism that really there's no difference between the sexes.

So I obviously rejected that. But then it became much more radical 10, maybe 10 years ago. Doesn't it strike you, but even in every context that, you know, be it secular or in church context when people argue, you know, there are no gender distinctions, you know, you can make theological arguments, you know, biblical arguments, whatever, but just simply saying that like, hey, before 70 years ago, literally no one agreed with us. like you can't really find a place in all human history

in all human history so I'm not going to even argue I'm right or wrong but doesn't that make you want to pump the brakes a little bit? No, because we have atomic weapons now and I'm to this, let me just indulge my theory which I can't control myself from talking about.

Run, baby. You've heard it before, but I just think I think nuclear weapons which I don't think were created by people, sorry. I don't care how many movies they make about. I don't believe that. You didn't see Oppenheimer?

Yeah, okay. Wouldn't watch that crap. I wouldn't let that into my head for one second. Anyway, because it's all lies. But anyway, sorry, now I'm getting really crazy, but it's all true. What I'm saying is true. I think once man possessed the power

or believed he possessed the power to destroy everything that's alive, I think that he rejected God. Like, that is kind of like, that's rejection of God. And like, everything changed after that. People became convinced they were God. And that's when the true craziness started.

It's not the 60s, the 60s or the, you know, Obama years or whatever you want era. It's like post-nuclear weapons. That's what I believe. So anyway, but the gender thing kind of exploded maybe 10 years ago with this like, really, we're going to assign the child to gender or let him choose his gender or whatever. And I was confused by I thought it was so crazy that I just didn't take it seriously at all. And you're the one who made me take it seriously. and you said, I'll never forget it.

You said this is a direct attack on God's design as described in Genesis. So can you flesh it out a little bit? This is not like an accident. Like this was always going to happen is basically what you said. Yeah, well, when you read the Genesis narrative, right? You know, again, God, you know, in the beginning,

God creates the heaven and the earth. And you have this picture of this sort of chaos that happens and as God's spirit hovers over the water, you know, the Hebrew, it's, it's, it's, it's, the, it's, the hovering is almost like a mother bird's wings hovering over the chaos. And he begins to speak things into order. And, you know, you got day one and he creates light. He's to, you know, as it grows, he separates the land from the, from the waters and he throws the stars in the sky, he shoots this fish in the sea and the animals come. And then each time you see, each created order or each creative day, what you're watching is,

it grows in glory. It grows in complexity, but it grows in glory. And each time God is, it's good, it's good. And then you get to day six where God creates humanity. And it's this sort of crowning

explosion of creation. The largest expression of his glory. Actually, the crown jewel of creation was the last thing which was created. And that was, those were women. That is the final most glorious creation. And that's certainly how I feel. Yeah, and that's the way the story needs to be read, right?

So if people just side note, you know, women always, it's, and I have sympathy for it, for, there's much the church needs to apologize for, for the ways that they've hurt women in the past, but I can tell you, as a Bible nerd, I can tell you that that is the fault of man and not of God, because the biblical story elevates women in a way that the world never would. Anyway, so back to our point. So in this crown jewel of creation with humanity, he could have expressed it in any way.

And he created man, he created man and he created woman. You know, they are, they are, he created masculinity, and he created femininity. This is not a human construct. It is not a social construct. Of course, there are things that, you know, cultures and, you know, cultural moments can shape the way those are expressed. but generally speaking masculinity as we understand it.

It's not just, oh, you're a dude. It's a holy calling. It's a holy calling. And as God says, you are his image bearer in this world. And women are his image bearers that come together to create this fuller image of what God is to be expressed and rolled out into the world as their image. It would behoove us to understand what is this thing called masculinity that I've been saddled with? or I have been called to.

What is femininity that I have been called to? And as men, I think, well, to your point, I think that's A, that you cannot, there's many people that make theological arguments against what I just said. You can make many theological arguments say, you just can't make a biblical argument against what I just said.

You just can't read the scripture in any just intellectually honest way. and just not see that that's just the way it is. And also experientially. Well, I know it's true experientially because God also doles out punishments for eating the fruit. And he says to Adam, you're going to live by the sweat of your brow. It's going to be hard for you to make a living. You can go to work.

Doorns and thistles. Futility, yeah. And he says to Eve, two things. One, childbirth is going to be hard for you. And two, your desire is going to be for your husband. Rule over him. And he's going to rule over you. And those are the things that men and women resent.

I've noticed. You know, men need to work. They derive satisfaction and self-respect from work, but they also hate to work because it's hard. Women, of course, most women love children, but they fear childbirth and that is suffering. And there is a sense in which women resent men. Men hate work, and women might resent that stuff. We can do that. But when we lose the plot, but when we step back into the story, right, when we went through, you know,

when we encounter God in a real way through the gate of Jesus, we go through and begin to see the redemptive story, but when we see the creation story and the creation purpose, like we just describe, and you realize, wait, this is a holy calling. I'm actually, what was when God called Adam? Work was, work didn't happen after the fall. God's purpose was work for Adam.

He said, I want you, again, what we said, again, God created Eden, which was this holy place, this, but the rest of the world wasn't like Eden. And when he says to Adam, I want you to exercise dominion, what he's saying, it's not just I'm putting you in charge. What he was saying is I'm giving you a job. And I want you to take what is in Eden, and I want you to take it all around the rest of the world. I want you to turn the world into this. I want you to drag the realities of this out and create, go be ruthlessly human in relationship with God, go create cities and art and cuisine and all these things that become, you know, become, build out the kingdom of God, right?

And when you see that, when Jesus came talking about the kingdom of God, it wasn't plan B. He's grabbing plan A and just saying we're reinstitued. It's all about that. And so when you see in Revelation chapter 21, which is the end of the story where it says, behold, I see, you know, the new heavens into the earth are coming down and behold, I'm making all things new. and it's this glorious picture of the consummation of all things. That holy city that's coming down,

that was the city that Adam was supposed to have built. And all of a sudden, where Adam failed, Jesus is the second time. He succeeded and he came and he made this happen. Why does that matter? How does that go into our question about man being working and all the sense of futility? Not only his masculinity, a holy calling, but the work that we're to put our hands to, when we have now of a gospel lens,

when Jesus says the kingdom of God is at hand, we get to be participants now in the original mandate to how do we bring and build the kingdom of God here and now? And all of a sudden animates, I don't care if you're a plumber or you're a lawyer, you're a baker or a candlestick maker, that all of a sudden we are now participants in something that God is doing that we get to bring the realities to bear in our world. And that sense of futility, I think when we can maintain that perspective, I don't think our sense of futility can stand, or it goes to war with our sense of futility. Does it make sense? It does make sense. Can I add one liner note? Please. Eden was what? Physically, it was a land of rivers and trees?

Great question. Actually, I'm a Genesis nerd, so I'm going to go here. Rivers and trees, though, correct? Rivers and trees. Okay, so Eden was also, I believe it says in Ezekiel, it describes it as on a mountain, which is kind of a lost fact. So rivers, trees, and mountains. And a place where God, the divine, and the human, and the human overlap and dwell together.

So maybe there's a reason that when people are in office buildings, they feel differently from the way they feel when they're next to rivers. Hanging out in trees. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe anyone who destroys rivers and trees is on the wrong side. The Lorax might have had a point.

I really believe that. I believe that trees are really important. They're all over the Bible. I think cedar has a special place. But you look at it. It's true. But when you read, again, going back to the creation story, each creation's day after God made the trees. And what did he say?

He says, it's good. It was good in and of itself because he found pleasure. Amen. Not just for its utility, not to, but it's also. And not just for its utility, that's exactly right. It's for, and so when Adam was to exercise dominion, it wasn't like, what are you going to kill and cut down? It was how are you going to nurture? Exactly.

How are you going to take this and bring it everywhere? And that's why when people get in that kind of relationship with nature, they feel a deep satisfaction and a peace that is clearly from God. 100%. So when you deny people that, that is, when you deny them beauty, when you destroy beauty, God's created beauty, that is not good. I just preached on this the other night, but is it the idea of redemption and the idea of recreation, when you're, Genesis, I think it's 317, where it says talking about, you know, thorns and thistles and we'll push back.

One of the lines is it says, cursed is the ground because of you. Yes. And what he's saying there is because of your sin, you, Adam, who I've put in charge with the created order as my vice regent, because of your sin now it is paid forward and it has corrupted the creation. So the earthquakes and the fallenness of this world is a product of the fallenness of man. So when you read in Romans 8, it talks about the creation groans and the way the creation groans because, you know, scripture tends to personify, you know, the birds and the mountains and all.

Yeah. And it says the creation groans, right? Yeah, of course. In Psalm 19, you know, all the creation sings of God's glory. But the creation groans, but in the same way, it is, the redemption of creation is going to be tied to the redemption of man and the redemption of humanity. So as we are, have been recreated and are living out that recreation, and one day will stand in the full, realities of our recreation so will the world it is tied to when jesus came to redeem all things he wasn't just talking about people all things the cedars as you just said the trees and the rivers and

the and the and i can't wait for that day i agree with that but on the weight of that day we i think i know because i experienced this morning so watch the sun come up you can get flashes of it that's right all around us And we can participate in that. That's, you know, behold, the kingdom of God is his hand. What is Jesus doing in those moments in the New Testament? When he, we talked about this last night, when Jesus is, every time you see Jesus doing a miracle,

like what is Jesus doing in that moment? Is he just doing a trick? Is he trying to sort of flex his like God muscle and show him like, this is what I'm capable of? Is this a proof? I mean, there's some of that where he's like pulling back the curtain and revealing his divinity. who he is and where people sit back and he stills the wind and the waves and people aren't

just quit asking like who are you they're now asking like what are you yeah right but when jesus one of the things that he's doing in those moments where he is you know where he heals the heels the you know the hemorrhaging woman or he raises gyrus his daughter from the dead or he calls lazarus out of the tomb what he's doing is he's reaching forward and he's grabbing the realities of the new heavens and the new earth that we will one day live in the full experience and he's planting them in the moment and he's giving people a foretaste of like this is what the kingdom of god is this is what the kingdom so you know the the journey of redemption and recreation for uh is not about how do we get man out of earth into heaven the journey and the ultimate consummation is how do we get heaven

and earth back together and that's and those miracles that we begin to see as the miracles we were just talking about, is Jesus doing that very thing? And to your point where you say, I stand out there and I see pops of this, we now get to participate in that. So we get to bring the realities of the new heavens and the new earth. How does that look? Well, here's the new heaven. When we bring comfort to someone who is lost in grief, when I sit with a couple who is shattered by adultery or their marriage isn't or someone is on their deathbed and they are scared and they feel alone and you sit and you pray with them and you're bringing those realities to bear when you feed the hungry when you love the very difficult to love you know that's our call when you

plan a garden right i know these are kind of oh come on no really when you plan a garden like what are you doing? That's an ancient call. I mean, that's what Adam did. You know, that's what Noah did. You know, he was a, he was a, you know, he was a farmer. He grew grapes, you know, this is, but we are participating in the, in the, in trying. Anyone who doubts that? Anyone who would mock the idea of garden planting as a profound act is just not, hasn't lived long enough. Yeah, I'm not very good at that. I watered my wife's garden the other night. She had to go and she's like, we watered my garden. Took me like 40 minutes, by the way. But by the end, I was like, man, that was like amazing. That was amazing. All I did was swore in the garden. I'm exercising my dominion with a hose. I'm with you, man.

That's it. So the gender, the question of whether God created male and female, this is not some minor question. No. And liberating people from the constraints, of gender is probably not actually liberation. Is that what you're saying? No, I think it's a, it's a confusion and it's sad. You know, and in fairness, let me take it from a non-political kind of lens of it because it's like, I know that's a cultural movement, but just take it down to a, you know, there are people that,

and I have a deep heart for that, people that have profound confusion in that place. Oh, for sure. And brokenness in that place, that feel very lost in that place and feel very, and the way Christians talk about it in a sort of argumentative way. Right. You know, like, oh, you're right, we're wrong. I'm like, dude, that's, that, you know,

we can fight a sort of air war, a theological war and have these kind of debates, but at the end of the day, you gotta remember, like we're talking about people here. Right. And they're legit people that are hurting and asking real questions in this place that have, and a lot of them.

Yeah. Not a small number. That's right. And I think one of the disservices in the church that we can do is because we get so consumed in the theological debate that, you know, we, we lose the trees and see the forest, right? And when you look at the trees, these are people. And they come up the question around,

what would you say to someone who was in your care, just another human being, your neighbor, as defined by the New Testament, who was questioning his or her gender? What would you say to that person. Presumably, you don't want that person to have to question and you don't want the person to, you know, take the next steps, but you love that person. So you're probably not screaming at the person, so what do you say? Well, I'd tell you, the first thing I would say is, well, the first thing that I would walk with a profound humility, because I know that I'm stepping into a story that has, that involves a tremendous amount of shame and a sense of isolation, because this is something this person undoubtedly had been contending with far longer

at a far younger age than in solitude, which is heartbreaking to think of a child asking theological questions for which they shouldn't be asked to contend with. Like, am I going to hell? am I this, am I, like, that's, that's like, I, I could, I weep thinking about that. Yeah. So my heart posture in that is one of deep and profound compassion. Because they didn't, they didn't ask for that.

Yeah. And it is, and for those that sit on the opposite side of a theological fence to just come at this with hammer and tongs, like, you might want an argument, but bro, you are shattering people. and you're winning no hearts in that place. That's right. It is the God's, it is God's kindness that leads to repentance. And we would, excuse me, we would be wise to remember his kindness to us before we ever step into a conversation like that. So what would I say?

And by his kindness to us, you mean? They're no better than me. Exactly. better than them. That's exactly right. Hey, what, what lottery? I mean, you're saying? Do I know what you're saying? We were talking last night. We single this issue off, dude.

And it's like, okay, but I will like somehow wink at greed or somebody's or my own, you know. Or bloodlust. Or bloodlust or whatever it is. And we can wink at all these things. But like, you know, all those things keep me out of it. Like, I deserve, I deserve hell for all those things. Right. No, I get it.

It is, but for the grace of God, period. And we talked about the things that God saved us from, and the malleability, like, why aren't you dealing with that? Why am I not to? Like, I don't know. I'm not. I'm thankful I'm not. Totally agree.

So how do you walk into it? What do you say? You don't say anything first. You listen, man. And you earn the right to be heard. You earn the right to be heard. You sow seeds, dude. And you listen.

And the way you sow seeds is you, you, non-judgmentally listen and you invite forward. Who are you, man? Because that doesn't define you. And you become a safe place and a trustworthy place, not with an agenda so you can eventually pull this judo move to show them how they're wrong. Because this is not your job, right?

It's God's job to move someone's heart. It's God's job. Like when Jesus ate with sinners, what did he do? Do you think he sat around and he got, because he just sat around and he ate with the tax collectors and the drunkards and the prostitutes. Did he sit there and the conversation was him going around the room telling him where they were wrong and he was right? Like, no, that would be a very short hang, right? That's not a good party.

But no, it's because they liked him. Yeah. And why did they like him? Because he probably listened really well. And he probably sat with him and he earned the right to be heard. And that is a wonderful, philosophy of ministry as you step into places like this with the broken and the bruised and the bruised reads and the smoldering wicks as scripture says and you listen and you and you

and hopefully they come out of the shadows and begin to talk about the struggle and you and you and you honor it and you love them and you let you know you let the lord steer it like if i i would be in doing a a disservice. What do you say? Like, I don't know. It depends how who I'm talking to and whatever, but I know what I, I know what I wouldn't say and I know what I wouldn't do and it wouldn't lead off with a, with a moral lecture on what, because they know, they've contended with those arguments. They could probably shape those arguments better than I ever could, because they've dealt with them far longer and far more personal ways. So, yeah, I'd love them well. And then, you know, I think, again,

What does it mean to do the work of God in places like that? It's the same thing in anywhere else. A bunch of years ago, someone asked me this question. I was working with a, doing some chaplaincy work with the soccer team. And he was joking about, what is it like to do the Lord's work? I kind of like, I thought it was kind of a weird question. And I thought to myself for a minute, and I was like, you know what, man, I'm not doing the Lord's work.

The Lord is doing the Lord's work. my job as a priest, as a pastor, as a Christian, as a man, is to, is to cultivate a heart that knows what it means to listen to the Holy Spirit and to see where the Holy Spirit is moving and just agree with it. I just agree with it, right? How do we learn that? How do we cultivate that? We learn it through reading the word.

We learn it through prayer. We learn it through worship. We learn it through doing these conversations. it through our relationships with other men or women and our marriages. But we tune our hearts as the hymn says, Lord, tune my heart to your grace so I know I can see it when you're doing it. And I can just agree with it. And the doors you open cannot be shut.

The doors you closed can be open. Help me not beat my head against those doors that want to open. And when I'm dealing with a human heart, it's the same question. What doors are you opening, man? there and how do I talk to them in a way that they need to hear this, not the way that I can be right. Yeah, people have an overwhelming need to be right or desire to be right. I do. It's hard, man. I don't, but I don't. No, I know you don't. I look at you with pity and concern. Yeah, God, I understand. You imagine. You need to be right. Need to prove your point.

Well, that was a beautiful description of how to have. to actually love somebody rather than, I mean, because I know where you're coming from, which is you want to see people genuinely liberated and not led into their destruction by any, any of these things, you know, and, but we're all fighting against our desire to be right, really is what it comes down to. Oh. Yeah. It's, yeah, 100%. Can I say one thing, though, that I can't resist. So Jesus, there's this moment where he says, you know, woe to. anyone who leads the children astray. And you do feel like when you're looking at people who are beset by any of these agonies

with, I mean, if you're, you know, you look at them with compassion. But then you think, like, someone lied to them and got them here in the first place, and I feel less compassion for that person. I'm just going to say that. There's a lot of voices, man. And I would, there's a lot of people that will, vehemently disagree with me and that's okay but uh i would just say that as people ask those questions about their own life and they're going through you you can easily find

someone to affirm the path that you're going down to oh yeah right i mean there's so many different flavors and denominations and expressions of that like you want someone to prop up your lifestyle and give you theological and biblical justification. Like, you don't have to scratch very deep to find someone to do that. But that's why I think it's so important that we, that's why, like I said, I'm a Bible nerd, and I think it's so important that that, that it's scripture alone, man. We have to, we have to go, you know, we have to go to scripture and test it, everything against, measure everything against what we're hearing in the world, what you're hearing

from me. Well, you hear from, you know, the church and leaderships. Like, I'm not, I'm not scripture, right? I'm not, like, what's right? What's wrong? Who gets to answer that question? Who gets to be the one to answer that question? Do I get to answer that question? No, does God gets to answer that question? Okay, so that's, we can all agree. Most people will stack hands. God's the one that gets to answer that question. Okay, how does God answer it through me? he answers it through his word right he answers it through that that's how god has taken a knee and he has written this redemptive historical sort of incredibly rich dynamic gift to us that's called the bible and if if we are people that want to understand what it means to to ask these questions

to move in these directions and to do it with any in any truth and integrity we have to measure what we're hearing against this, you know. Yes. It's, you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind through the scriptures, it says in Romans. And so we can test in God's good and perfect will. We can test it. Is this God speaking to me or is this some, you know,

newfangled cultural moment that's just trying to like, you know, vie for air dominance right now or whatever, you know, you know what I'm saying? Of course, yeah. Addiction. It's been a feature of, well, it's described in the Bible. So it's, you know, it's been around since people have been around, I think. But it does seem like a bigger factor in the lives of Americans than 40 years ago.

I mean, I know that it is because there's just a lot more ways to get addicted and there's less cultural resistance to addiction than there's ever been. And so like entire generations are getting destroyed by it. There's more things that are more obvious things to be addicted to that aren't just substances. Exactly. Yeah. So how big a presence is addiction in your experience of counseling? I mean, it's just part of it, you know,

and it's a, you know, doing what I do, obviously you encounter, you know, when people come into my office and they knock on my door, very rarely it is like, hey, I have a question, why in the book of numbers did so-and-so? You know, why did Moses hold up a golden, you know, serpent or whatever? where it's rarely questions like that. It's more like...

Are you psyched when it is, though? Yeah, actually, that's a lot easier. It's a lot easier. But people that are coming in with it, you know, they can't keep their cheese on their cracker, man. And they're saying, hey, I'm addicted to this or my marriage is coming apart. And so addiction is, it's a, you know, again,

you've got substance abuse, you've got alcoholics, you've got people that, you know, opioids now, which is insane. you've got these things you know the list is endless gambling pornography gambling pornography gambling that is god that scares me because of just the online stuff you see that uh i don't i have seen it it is not something that i have faced but i know a lot about it i know a lot of people that have have gone that journey and that is one of the most nefarious and hard-to-beat addictions is gambling and uh but all that to say uh

But to those that contend with addiction, you know, the one thing that I can say, and then I can say this unequivocally, is there is so much hope for people. It's not a path that you ever want to walk down. But my favorite people that I deal with are my friends in AA or my friends in, you know, that are in NA or that have gone through recovery that have had, you know, all their self-righteous pretenses stripped down. that have been brought down to the studs who have, you know, blown up their lives. So they don't have anything to prove. And they've been on this redemptive journey. I always talk these people, I always say, would you please come and join my church? Would you please come and be a part? I'm like, we need this. Like the church needs to be a hospital, not a showcase.

I've never been to a church as Christian as some A.E. meetings I've been to. I agree with you. And it's, you know, church needs to be a place where we can get blood on the walls. And you know what I mean by that? where we can tell the truth. You know, church is not designed to be an AA meeting and AA meetings are not designed to be church, but there are aspects of it where...

The humility and the honesty. The humility, the honesty, to where people can come in and walk through the doors of a church and say, this is populated by people that I could sit in a roomful of men or a room full of women, a room full of couples,

and I could have a human yard sale of what I've done and who I've been in my life. and I would be met with love and grace and people looking at me and saying, I wanna hear more of that. That when I show you the most wretched parts of me, it doesn't push you away,

but it draws you closer because you're able to look me in the eye and say, yeah, I get it, man, me too. You know? And that's, that is, you know, that's, because what that does, it does a lot of, you know, our biggest most, you know, with addiction especially, and, you know, be it pornography, gambling, alcohol, whatever it is,

you know, sweets, or whatever you're addicted to. No, I don't think it's fair to put sweets. It might be a little too much, but it's, it is a, it is, it breeds so much shame. Yeah, I know. Right? It breeds so much shame and that's what sin does. It breeds shame.

You read the story in the garden when Adam eats of the tree, the knowledge of good and evil, he runs, what's the first thing Adam does? Is he run and he hides in the, Bushes. He hides. And then God comes in and he asks the question. He says, Adam, where are you? What do you, what do you, why are you hiding? A little pro tip. Anytime God asks the question in Scripture, he already knows the answer. He does. But what he needed Adam to see is he need Adam to see the answer. And Adam comes out and he says, what he says to him, he says, why were you hiding? And Adam's in the garden. There's one rule in the garden. Don't eat of this tree of the knowledge of good news. And Adam's broken that rule. Sin enters and he hides. And when he says, and when he's, When God asked him, why are you hiding? The logical answer is, I just broke the one rule. That's not what he says, though.

He says, I was naked and I was ashamed. And to paraphrase that, he was saying, I wasn't hiding because I have done something wrong. I'm hiding because I am something wrong. And I could not bear for you to see me. And if you saw me, you would reject me and I would be alone. And that is the most foundational cry of the human heart, which it was the, the cry of Jesus on the cross when he became sin, when he truly became like us and he absorbed the sin of humanity.

And he quotes the Psalms and he says, my God, my God, the cry of dereliction, why have you forsaken me? He could have said anything in that moment. But it was this cry of our deepest longing, don't leave me like this shameful thing that I am. So going back to the AA, the biggest poison that leads to addiction and is this shame engine

that drives us. and I don't want to feel it so I drink and I feel more shame and so I drink more and it just becomes this cycle but when you get into these rooms and you're able to have like I just said like you have a yard sale and you're able to say this is what I am I'm Billy I'm an alcoholic or I'm Tucker and I'm a this or I'm whatever it is and you can lay that out

in front of a group of people and they sit there and they don't run away and they don't give you the rejection that you think that you deserve that pushed Adam into the bushes it just sweeps the knee of your shame shame. And all of a sudden, the thing that Satan meant for evil, God means for good. And the place of your greatest destruction, your greatest fears, your greatest self-sabotage becomes a place where life grows. Like, tell me there's not a living God. Tell me there's not a God that is using the tools of

the enemy against him, right? That makes us more than conquerors, right? That's beautiful. And so do I encounter addiction? Yeah. And when I find guys that have been through recovery, I love them. Me too. I feel the same way. I feel exactly the same way.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. So you made, I think the most profound thing you said was the core human fears don't leave us alone. And that the first thing that God saw

that was wrong with creation was Adam's solilo. It's not good for me to be alone. It does feel like people are more alone. Oh, we're isolated, especially as men. Why as men? Because we are scared to be found out. You know, men, we live in the same way. You know, that description I just said of Adam,

he's like, you know, there's something that's, you know, I'm not something right. It said Adam on this, course that I have to become so it's it's on me I've got to become this ruthless quest for validation and that's the sort of spiritual genetic heritage that we've all received I think it's all men we are born with this idea of that this I'm incomplete and I've and it's on me to to be enough and I'm terrified isn't that you know I one is but you know as a man I've spent much of my life, too much of my early life, terrified that people would see that I don't have it all together.

Like we all, like, we all, like, have two things in common. One, none of us have it all together. And the second thing is we all want everyone around us to think we do. Of course. Right. And the idea and the fear of that is if I let you see that, the same fear that Adam had, that you would see something that you found undesirable and you would abandon me.

And I would be left alone. So as men, we have become so artfully skilled at working side by side and doing acts of, you know, working side by side and, you know, playing golf together and doing all these things, but just know nothing about each other's lives. I think that's right.

But if I could just be the liberal for a moment and blame society also, I think the structures have completely changed in the world around us. And I think it is more and more difficult for men to find the chance to be with other men. Yeah. Just men. I mean, that is total. Well, by the way, it's measurable. Well, it's an ancient problem.

I think one of the great unspoken miracles in Scripture is that Jesus is a man in his mid-30s had 12 best friends. Right? Like how many men in their third? Like the last, most men, I spend a lot of time ministering with men. I love it. It's one of my favorite things is that one of the last times that men remember having real relationships was back in college. I know. The last time and then they step into the workforce. They get married, which is wonderful. And they have children, which is wonderful.

But they lose sight of the importance of male relationship. They lose sight of, they lose sight of. they lose sight of the value of why you need men around you. And this is something that Jesus demonstrably demonstrated that with his 12 disciples. That was, you know, he illustrated a lot of things with that. But on the most basic level, it was just, hey, we need that. You read Mark chapter 2.

What is the story where Jesus is in Copernum? And he's there and he's teaching in the house and it's packed. And there's people like hanging in the windows and no one can get in there. and there's a man who's been paralyzed. And they can't, they want Jesus to heal him and they can't get to him. So his friends, his four friends, or however many friends it was, they pick up the mat and they grab the corners of the mat and they carry their friend. And they go to the roof of where Jesus is teaching in this house and they begin digging

and they tear the roof off. You can imagine Jesus just feeling the chunks coming down and he's like, what's going on? And they're like, our friend is hurt. my friend need you and they lower this man down if i were to go down the street how many men do you think and i pulled randomly how many men do you think would have mat carriers i do i do too thank you for being one of those mad carriers yeah well we saw this coming 40 years ago you saw it coming no i just knew that men in there because i saw it among men i knew and respected and loved they would get, you know, to middle age and then old age, and they had no real male friends.

And so we decided, five of us in college, we're not going to let that happen. And we set up a pretty complex structure to maintain that friendship. And we did. We sure did. And for, you know, over 40 years now. And so that really one of them profound things in my life. But I just know, I really feel like I'm, one of very few 57-year-old men I know who has like four best friends, for real, though,

not at not kind of academically my best friends, but like people I see regularly, who are the godfathers of my children, who we, you know, travel somewhere in the world every single year, who I talk to all the time, who I've relied on consistently for 40 years for advice or if I needed it, money, or whatever I need. And I will say, not to brag, but it's not bragging, It's just the nature of it. Of those four men, or five men, all five are still happily married. That's true. All five have children who respect them.

All five are just basically happy. Yeah. And I think it's in part the results of those friendships. Oh, that's been one of the single most profound gifts of my life. You've been one of the most profound gifts of my life. Partly, you know, it's funny about that group of our group of five guys. is you couldn't find five more different people. Yeah.

Right? And the beauty of it was the commitment and the covenant where we pushed in. That's exactly right. We were 20 years old. We didn't know what we were saying. And we pushed in and we said, all right, we will not break this covenant,

this vow with one another until we die. Until we die. And we have not and we will not. But the thing about it is you think about all the seasons of life where we've been through with all the incarnations of birth and births and deaths and, you know, all the transitions and, you know, all the tears that have been cried

and all those things that, you know, we've won and we've lost. And then how the world has tried to conspire to pull our relationships apart just by proximity, but we've really held to that. And for me, I know personally, I'd just say, knowing in those dark places that I could always just reach out. Oh, yeah.

And just knowing that you're there and knowing that the other guys are there is, it's been such a gospel expression. The number of times, I talked about earlier, you remember we were saying about how, you know, Jesus comes, he saves us from our sins, he saves us from, you know, breaks the back of sin and death,

but, you know, foundation, he's saving me from myself. And the reason, one of the reasons I love our friendship is the number of times you guys have stepped in and kind of saved me from my own decisions. Been there. Right? Yeah, yeah.

Just being able to speak like, hey, I wouldn't do that. Or, you know, just loving each other through hard times. And I mean, you know, losing, I remember my dad died. I will never forget it. It was last January. And walking into that church was packed and turning around and seeing you guys all sitting on the row. It just shattered my heart, man, in a beautiful way.

It was a huge gift to me, man. It used to be. Yeah, no, it's been absolutely incredible. Yep, I could go on. I could write a book about it, never will. Never talked about in public before. But the only reason I'm saying that is not to brag, but just to say, because it's not anything, you know,

I've just been the beneficiary of it, but I think it's worth saying it out loud that, like, in some sense, it's different, obviously totally different from marriage, but it's the same in the sense that is the product of a, covenant of a promise to other people that you're just going to abide by. And like when you have like a six month old and your buddies are like, you know, this year we're meeting in Barbados or wherever we're meeting, Hartford, Connecticut. And your wife is like, what? Yeah. You know, come on now. You've got three kids and breastfeeding. It cost you something to be there. Big time. Yeah. And you say

cost them something for us to be there. A lot. And I think they've paid up many, all five of them support it because they see its fruits. But to say to your wife, I'm sorry, this is a commitment that I made. And she's like, and you never want to make your wife mad, especially when she just bore your child. And you do it. And like that, so it does take some sacrifice, not small sacrifices. No, tremendous.

And it's so essential. But the dividends are so exponentially more. I mean, going back to what we're saying, like the importance of male relationship in that is the problem is, you know, in the same way we talked about pornography or addiction, one of the things is it pushes you in isolation. Like, isolation's a bad thing. Yes.

And for us as men as masculine beings, you lose perspective on your own masculinity and your own sense of self and your own role as a husband and your own role as a father. And it's essential that you have good, healthy men that can serve as mirrors and reflect. and just kind of play catch with you a little bit on these ideas.

Exactly. Or you get in your own one-man echo chamber and you start feeling crazy, then you start feeling the shame, I'm not doing this right, or I don't know, and then you start living out of caricature of what you think you should be versus what you kind of really are. And the next thing you know, you want to talk about, like, how do marriage problems start? Like men, you know, there's a great spot, a great place.

And for, I think, having those healthy relationships for men, certainly for me, has done a tremendous amount of helping me have a healthy marriage because it's helped me regulate my sense of self and also just like my sense of, my vain sense of self. I got famous in my 20s. I didn't expect to be famous. I got famous. It's been.

I would not have handled that well in my twice. Well, I don't think, I don't think I did. But if it hadn't been for you guys, I think I would have been totally off the deep end, completely off the deep end. And our wives. For sure. We married good women. Yeah, for sure.

But, you know, I know a lot of married men who, your buddies are a little different from your wife because your wife is never. Thankfully. No, I think it's harder for your wife to be like, oh, stop it. But you go see your buddies and you're like, who's a cable television show? They're like, Campbell TV. I don't care at all. This is true. It's so good.

Yeah. It's so important. It's so. And I think what I, you know, I think this was kind of baked into the cake with us because, I mean, we met when we were 17 or whatever, right? And we met, you know, we were very unimpressive at that time. Not that we're very impressive now. But what happens is, is that, and I think one of the values of this friendship, and I think it's values of any male, if I could just elevate this one aspect of us, is that we love each other and we respect each other, but we're not overly impressed with each other. No, not at all. Like, this might be hard for people to understand, but like, when we get together, we will rag on, you know, we will bust each other's chops in a way that only people that have that kind of relationship can do, right? Yeah, you, you know, lovingly humiliate one another. Continuously.

Continuously, yes. And so, but I think there's a huge value to that. And so for male relationship, when I'm talking about it, it doesn't have to be some giant therapy session. It just has to be men that see you that are, they're, they're, have. the ability and willingness to speak that truth into you and say, you know, no, dude, you're not all that. Or, dude, about 10 years ago, I was, you know, I decided one of my children's like, you've got to get off nicotine.

And I was like, I knew that was, it was obviously it's wrong to get off nicotine. Were you doing nicotine? So I get bullied by this. You love nicotine more to anybody. I really do. I always have. But anyway, this one child's like, you have, it's bad for you. Okay.

Which it's not. But anyway, I get off nicotine and immediately go crazy and get fat. And I kind of knew that I was crazy, but I didn't quite realize how fat I was good. Because no one of my world said one word to me about it. And I was like, man, I think my pan shrunk, whatever. We go skiing and I'll never forget it. We get off the tram in Jackson, Wyoming. And, you know, the five of us, whatever, we're skiing.

One of us lives out there. And so, anyway, I get off and I'm with one of them turns out of me. He goes, dude, you're fat. And I was like, I don't think I'm fat. What? He goes, look at you. You're fat. It's disgusting.

And I was like, I'm not fat. You've got your own weather system, man. I'm on TV every day. I don't think of someone tell me if I was fat. He goes, dude, you're fat. Someone is telling you. I remember this. I went and bought a tin of Copenhagen that night and immediately, you know, lost some of the weight.

But the point is, it was the only person who would tell me that. And so just so gently, too. I think everybody else noticed. I mean, obviously, everyone else knows, but now one person said one word. Isn't that interesting? But you know, do you know why he did that? I'm going back to use that phrase. He had earned the right.

Oh, yes. He was a say, because you knew he knew he loves you, right? And you knew, you knew he cared and you knew. Godfather to my son. Yes. No, I know. No. I know you're talking about.

Yeah, you've met him. He's kind of fat, too. I agree. Anyway, yeah, what an incredible blessing. And I hope this conversation doesn't make other people feel. Well, I don't know. It's just true. And so I'm glad we.

It is true. I say that. I think, I hope other people hear it. They hear this as an invitation. Right. Whether you're young or especially young people, like lock in, man. Find your, find your, you know, your mat carriers. Yes.

Find your mat carriers, man. And because you're going to need them. Because you're going to, because one day you're going to be carrying the mat for that guy. But I promise you, your day is coming where you're going to be on the bat and you're not going to be able to get up and they're going to need to carry you to where you need to be. That is real. And it is true. It is true.

It is true as sure as I'm sitting here. And for people that are older, I don't care how old. There are men that are in, if you don't go to a church or you don't know a place where people can do that, that you don't have a community, then either look deeper in your church or find another one because it is so essential and it's so available. Yes.

And it just is. And it just takes the risk of being able to step in and a willingness to just tell the truth and also to be a willingness to be the kind of person that can step in and hear someone else's as they tell you the truth about their life and you love them anyway. Whether it's said graciously

or they are telling you you're fat in a very unceremonious way. But it's done with love. And I just think it's, I hear it. I just, I say that. as an invitation, man. I think it's good. Well, I hope it is because it's one of the most important things I've ever done after my marriage, the most important thing. So last question, and I think, there's something I think about a lot, but your answer when I asked you, what would you say to

someone, to anyone who was thinking, well, maybe I'm trans. I thought your answer was wonderful because you approached the person with love. So I want to ask a related question about something that's a kind of trend now among people who are really hurting, some of whom I think are wonderful people, veterans, and is the use of very, very heavy-duty hallucinogens, famously ayahuasca, but there are a bunch of Ibegain, there are a bunch of them, to heal them. And the reason that I've never really talked about it is because I want to approach it

with that same spirit, because these are like some of the best people I know, and also some of the most hurting people, and they've done what they were asked to do. in some cases it meant killing other people and they've been deeply damaged by it. That's my read. We spend a lot of time talking about how bad it is to be killed. I think we spend almost no time talking about

how bad it is for someone to kill. But it is bad. And I know a lot of people who've done it and has hurt every one of them. So in that pain or out of that pain, many of them go to hallucinogens. Very heavy-duty antigens. And I should just be totally honest,

I've used hallucinogens as a child. and I was totally convinced, like, that's not for me. That's bad. I was afraid of it. I did it a lot, and I was really afraid of it. I'm very opposed to it. But I want to be open-minded and loving because I know that they are suffering so much.

So that's the preamble. My question is, what's your view of that? Taking that in pieces, I would say, first of all, you know, medically speaking, like, I don't know. Like the, I know. I know I've got people that I know that had medication resistant depression that had done experimental but medically directed use of certain things that really helped them with their depressions and things like that. But I don't know enough to speak about that.

I would say to someone who's suffering from a PTSD to that level of what you're talking about, first of all, in the same way. what would I say? I wouldn't say much in the beginning because I think there's just so the trauma of that is something they never asked for. If I could distill it down, here's the great tragedy of it

is I would say it's not your fault. It's not your fault in the sense that you may have done things, but to have those experiences and you'd be thrust into a context where it's unwinnable, where you're being, you know,

you're in war, or whatever the context may be, and I know they're nuanced and varied, but it's not your fault that you bear the sort of intellectual or the psychiatric wounds, and those are real. Like those are neuropathways that are like legitimately carved, right?

So I don't wink at that. Like it's a real thing. PTSD is a real medical reality. It's not your fault, comma, but sadly, and this is the tearing of it, it's now your responsibility. So now what are you going to do? How do you choose to step in these directions?

And insofar is, you know, there's a range of treatments. I'm not an expert on that, so I'm not going to speak to that. But as far as like hallucinogens and you say ayahuasca or DMT or... Where all of a sudden you are meeting figures in the spiritual realm. This is where I... That's what I'm specifically talking about. Okay, this is where I have strong opinions. And my strong opinion is that much like I talked about earlier, you know, we live on, you know,

we live on a side of a curtain. There's a, and there are thin places, as you know, like we talk about, when I ministered to someone by their bedside, it's a thin place. You can almost feel that they're crossing over, and that's what the Celtics would call a thin place. It's like heaven and earth or the divine

or the supernatural, the unseen realm and the scene realm are beginning to touch, right? That's real, is it? Yeah. And what Jesus says in John 10, he says that, you know, there is that.

And there is that, but I'm the gate. And if you want to go into this, you want to go through the unseen realm where it produces this life and God, there's a way to do this. And it's through me, I'm the gate. And if you try to climb over the walls and you try to get in any other way,

you're doing that, guess what? You're a robber and you're a thief. And you're trying to gain the things of God without God. And you're trying to gain access to the divine and the unseen and all the, You want the cookies in the cookie jar, but you don't, but you're not going through the gate. And what I would say is you read stories about DMT and you read people.

And I, you know, I've never done that. But I know people that have dabbled in that quite a bit. And I know that when you hear encounters that I've crossed over and I've had this encounter with all these beings and there was this, a purple woman that I talked to and I developed this race. It was like I was there for years, but I was almost there for 10 minutes. And then somebody else goes and has the same trip and goes in and he comes back and says,

hey, I met a purple woman who knew your name and was asking about you. That's document reality. I know people that, many people have that experience. So what I'm telling you is there, this isn't just some psychiatric mind-bending exercise. You're actually crossing. You're not going through the gate.

You're crawling over the fence. But into a real pattern. Into a real place that is demonic, and those are, you are, you are encountering, I think it's a demonic experience, and I think it's a dangerous one because what's so dangerous about it, and this is true.

It's not your imagination, that's what you're saying. It's not your imagination. So when Jesus, so you read in, you know, the book of Deuteronomy, in another place it says, you don't practice necromancy, don't do magic, don't get involved in, you know,

terra cards or all that kind of stuff. What he's not saying is there's no power there. What he's saying is actually, the reason it's a warning is there's a lot of going on over there and it's but it's really dangerous and it's not of god it's not of jesus and it's dangerous and it will and what's so dangerous about it is that it the people that encounter this generally speaking and people this isn't for as many people there are different experiences but when people step into those places and they have these encounters they have these this profound sense of enlightenment they feel special they feel seen

They feel good. They feel, oh. And it's just like, it's like a taste they get. It's like the crack dealer, giving the taste on the playground. And then the kid just gets deeper and deeper. And what they think is giving them life is really hollowing them out from the inside. And I think what's happening in those experiences, the deeper you go, and you will one day wake up and discover that you have been dabbling

in a demonic realm that promised you life, but is an insight and progression and enlightenment, but it has really been hollowing you out from the inside, taking you away from the source of light, taking you away from the source of forgiveness of redemption that is only in Jesus, and distorting the image in which you were created. And I think it's a dangerous place,

and I would I that scares me for people that do that now where people especially those like I've have a lot of compassion for people like Ibergain or people that are in PTSD and again if there's a medical shallow end of that pool that has some that's not you know running through the you know the unseen realm and so I mean I you know I don't know but if there's but people that do that recaleration they go they're on there on some spiritual safari to go into that place I'm like man I would just I would, I would caution you against that. That's one place you don't need to go to know you don't want to be there. Amen.

The Reverend Billy Servany, a phrase I never get tired of using. One that still feels ironic to me. God bless you. God bless you, man. I love you. Good to see you.