The Tucker Carlson Show - Saagar Enjeti: Elon’s America Party, Iran, and Jeffrey Epstein Is Apparently Innocent Now

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

Why is Pam Bondi’s Justice Department covering up Jeffrey Epstein’s crimes and murder? Saagar Enjeti has a theory. (00:00) Apparently Jeffrey Epstein Is Innocent Now? (09:20) The Suspicious Life of Robert Maxwell (11:30) How the Kennedy Assassination Broke America (25:18) The Real Reason Pam Bondi Won’t Release the Files (36:25) Why Doesn’t American Foreign Policy Reflect American Interests? (45:18 How Identity Politics Have Infected the Right (59:59) The Moment Saagar Realized How the Corporate Media Machine Truly Works Saagar Enjeti is the host of "Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar" available on YouTube and podcast platforms. Saagar previously worked at The Daily Caller as a White House correspondent. Paid partnerships with: Dutch: Get $50 a year for vet care with Tucker50 at https://dutch.com/tucker Beam: Get 40% off for a limited time using the code TUCKER at https://ShopBeam.com/Tucker Eight Sleep: Get $350 off the new Pod 5 Ultra at https://EightSleep.com/Tucker SimpliSafe: Visit https://simplisafe.com/TUCKER to claim 50% off & your first month free! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Dazone. For the first time ever, the 32 best soccer clubs from across the world are coming together to decide who the undisputed champions of the world are in the FIFA Club World Cup. The world's best players, Messi, Holland, Kane and more are all taking part. And you can watch every match for free on Dazone, starting on June 14th and running until July 13th. Sign up now at Daz.com slash fifa. That's D-A-Z-N dot com slash fifa. I'll speak for myself. I never thought that I would be offering an apology

to Jeffrey Epstein. I think of all the times I've maligned that guy, all the times I'm accused him of crimes, of blackmailing people, of trafficking children, to powerful figures around the world on behalf of global intel services. And then I learned yesterday from Attorney General Pam Bondi, that's totally untrue. Yes.

The guy killed himself after 30 days, 36 days in prison for no reason. He was a billionaire. He had no clients. He'd done nothing wrong other than get like naughty massages 20 years before. And the guy killed himself, another pointless death. And then his best friend, former girlfriend, Jelaine Maxwell, doing 20 years in prison for no crime. There are no victims.

Yes, it's a victimless crime. They're obviously persecuted by the state. They're political prisoners, really. The Hague should come in and do an investigation, or we're watching one of the most systematic government cover-ups of all time. Something that you've said that always resonates with me is I don't want to be lied to, and I specifically don't want to be lied to by the very people who built careers. And I'm talking here specifically about Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, and many others who now

work for the administration, who fed MAGA and the American people and promised them to get to the bottom of this, only to turn their tune immediately upon assuming office, lying before Congress talking about, this is an obvious case of suicide, going on the Joe Rogan podcast, and effectively asking for some level of trust that I don't give to any government official. FBI Director Cash Patel said,

if I had this information, don't you think I would release it? No, I don't, because actually, your actions now just in the last couple of days only vindicate the idea that this is not only a systematic government cover-up at the highest levels, not only involving sex trafficking, but going all the way up to the top levels of the US intelligence, the Israeli intelligence community, implicating powerful people, billionaires here in the United States, former prime ministers of Israel, our current president, former presidents of the United States, and for them to come out on the very day, or I guess the day before, that the Israeli prime minister is visiting Washington.

For the third time in six months. For the third time this year. Why exactly? Can we go over that? Last time I checked, this is a country to do about $52 billion in bilateral trade with, equivocal to Singapore and Chile. I don't remember the last time the Chilean or Singaporean leaders were in Washington for three times in the last six months, and to who we give $3.3 billion to, Switzerland. These are all countries I love, by the way. I visited all three that I just listed.

I love them. Would I, you know, would they serve? And Israel. Yes. Did you go to school in Israel? That's right. I did six weeks know, would they serve? And Israel. Yes. Did you go to school in Israel? That's right. I did six weeks in Israel.

It's a great country. I like it a lot, but it's not about that. This is about my country. And so watching this all just get perverted and then used and hijacking our government is just particularly offensive to me, not only just as an American, but I feel particularly not only deceived by the people like the FBI director and the deputy director, Dan Bongino, but the attorney general who went on camera after assuming her office on the White House lawn, these are supposed to mean things, and said

thousands of victims, we have the client list, we have the flight logs. She held a little press conference, whatever event with so-called influencers in which she gave them the Epstein files, an infamous photo that was released. It turned out that that binder actually had redacted information in it, which was already public just to demonstrate how they were turning the White House effectively into a performative show and making light of the fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands of underage victims and it's just not the victims, it's the fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands of underage victims. And it's just not the victims, it's the fact that it extends to the highest levels

of the elite, the transatlantic elite, and possibly even beyond that from some of the richest men in our country, presidents of the United States, former prime ministers of Israel. We're talking here about Bill Gates, Leon Black, Leslie Wexner, the richest and most powerful people in the world, the Nobel committee, the scientific, I mean, the community at Harvard, MIT, the tentacles through which this operation had its hands in and stretches all the way back to the 1980s. It is one of the most disgusting intelligence operations, I think, in United States intelligence history, rivaling some of the things, you know,

eventually that led to the death of President Kennedy. And the thing is, is around this time, is just like Kennedy, we all know the truth. We know that this document released by the Trump administration is complete bullshit. And I guess that maybe, just like with the Kennedy assassination, they expect us to just get over it in a period of time.

And I genuinely think it's incumbent on anybody who was either supportive of the president, any United States citizen to say no, we demand like absolute and total transparency on this case and particularly of these government officials. Do not use your platform to enrich yourself on these podcast platforms and constantly talk about Epstein and the Epstein files, eventually

assume office, change on a dime and expect us to trust you. That is not how this works. And in particular, in that document, I think it's one of the most disgusting documents ever released by the United States government because it said there was no blackmail, we're not releasing this information. Cash Patel has this new line about how we're not going to re-victimize women. Ask the Epstein victims themselves. They have been begging for this information to come to light specifically to implicate the powerful men that victimized them and through which they were basically used for trafficking purposes to ensnare them in this high-level US intelligence, Israeli intelligence operation,

probably run in conjunction. And the trail of this entire thing, it enrages me. It actually enrages me as an American. I don't think you're alone. And I do think, as someone who voted for the president, campaigned for the president a lot, I'm not attacking the president. But I think even people who are fully on board with

you know, the bulk of the MAGA agenda are like, this is too much actually. Yes, yes. I'm saying that with love and I hope that they're listening because I think this threatens to blow up the whole thing. But let's just back up a little bit and just pick at some of the inconsistencies here. So you're saying that Pam Bondi said on camera, we have a client list.

On the White House lawn. I've seen the client list. Yes. And then yesterday she's saying there's no client list. There's no client list. And there was no systematic blackmail. That actually might be the most preposterous line in the document. But it doesn't, I mean, it doesn't make any sense.

So they've said that there were thousands of young people, in some cases, minors, underage children, victimized, sexually victimized, are they saying that Epstein single-handedly had sex with all? Because actually, for whatever it's worth, I don't think anyone, that I've never seen anyone make the claim that Epstein had sex with anybody.

Yes, that's right. Well, a lot of these allegations revolve around like group activities and they're around like masseuse and being I mean look the way that Dershowitz and others would claim it is I kept my underwear on and it was all a you know very above the board massage information there's that famous photo of Bill Clinton in the airport terminal with one of these young victims who herself says she was a victim of the Epstein entire machine so you're exactly right it's like for these thousands of women were they victimized entirely by Ghislaine Maxwell and by Jeffrey Epstein

because by the way that's not even what the Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein court documents and other things that we already knew that were in the public information. That's not what they say. That's not what the testimony of the victims of these people say. And so again even this client list thing and I do think people can go down the rabbit hole too much and think that there is, as you know, you know, there's no ledger as in client had sex with so and so and we in, you know, because of that supported Israel. Like that's not how it works. So the term client list itself is misleading.

It's misleading because really what we want is a full list of the victims of the people who flew on the flight logs. But the most important is the money. And I think a lot of people actually miss that in the Epstein story. Jeffrey Epstein came to power largely because he worked at Bear Stearns and effectively was like a high finance

money laundering expert. That's effectively what we can learn from his background. That's how he came involved with Leon Black. Leon Black was one of the most powerful men in New York. And this is the head of the Apollo group. He paid him $170 million. There are various shell corporations for tax advice. And when he was caught doing that, he was said, actually, it wasn't even useful

because all the tax advice was actually in the public domain. So what? I mean, Leslie Wexner in the 1991, I believe, signed full power of attorney over to Jeffrey Epstein. He was one of the richest men in America. I think he was the richest man in Ohio at that time. Jeffrey Epstein becomes the head of the Wexner Foundation, funnels some $2.5 million to Ayud Barak,

the former Israeli prime minister. I'm putting these things out there because I want people to know that the money is an integral part of the operation. And to the extent that the sex trafficking and all of that is linked, they are fused together because they were used primarily by the intelligence community.

Both, Epstein was a conduit of high stakes money laundering for things like, you know, to not Iran-Contra specifically, but let's say like funneling arms from Israel to Iran. This was also how he met eventually Robert Maxwell and became ensnared with his daughter, Ghislaine Maxwell. The money laundering is actually more key to his intelligence rules. Funneling arms from Israel to Iran?

This was a key part of the Maxwell story. Robert Maxwell is a very sketchy character, Ghislaine Maxwell's father. People focus on the tabloid. That's actually not all what I'm interested in. What I'm interested in is the fact that he's this Czechoslovakian, he's this Czechoslovakian Orthodox Jew who like escapes from the Nazis. He eventually becomes a highly decorated soldier. You know, actually, I think he won the second highest medal in the UK for his operations

during World War II. From that point forward, becomes very, very enmeshed with the Zionist community inside of the UK and propping up the newly formed state of Israel. From that point forward, he basically serves as a high stakes, like almost an entity in and of itself. That's the way that Darrell Cooper has described him, is like a sovereign wealth fund almost, which with together brokers, all kinds of deal, cut out deals, you know, between Israel and Iran.

And actually Epstein himself, when he was just 28 years old, met, flew on a private jet, I believe to the Pentagon, with somebody who we know is directly linked to these previous intelligence operations and funneling money and weapons into many of these conflicts. So this stretches back decades, and that's a very, very important part of the story. So please just do not tell me that there's no part of a systematic blackmail campaign it's so preposterous and it actually just makes us want it makes me want to tear my hair out and I guess the only good news is that just like with the Kennedy assassination we do all know the truth it's not the Kennedy assassination broke

this country I really believe that I know you do as well but it broke something even more fundamental and opened up what they call the credibility gap under the Johnson administration where prior to the 1960s Americans as well, but it broke something even more fundamental and opened up what they call the credibility gap under the Johnson administration, where prior to the 1960s, Americans trusted their government. It was actually, it was a beautiful thing. I mean, it was bad in some ways as well.

We were taken advantage of by the Dulles brothers and a lot of other horrible things they were doing in the 1950s. But it was beautiful in the sense of social and of civic trust. And there's something was broken with that, with the Kennedy assassination. And then it was extended, of course of social and of civic trust. And there's something was broken with that, with the Kennedy assassination. And then it was extended, of course, into the war in Vietnam.

And we've never been the same since. And all the Trump administration elected on the backs of a lot of these people, want more transparency in government, saw a lot of this corruption. To just turn around and do the same thing, it's just too much. It's too much for me, and I think it's too much for a lot of other people. So we want to brag, but this has got to be the most pro dog podcast on the entire internet. They're almost always dogs actually just off camera. So dogs are non-negotiable. Dogs are the best and people who love dogs really, really love them. We can relate. And so for

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Shop now at nofrills.ca. I remember thinking when Epstein killed himself, I never met Epstein, but I mean, he knew everybody. I mean, I will say, I mean, in the defense of people who got caught up in this because they went to dinner at Epstein's, like that George Stephanopoulos, for example, who I disagree with on everything, but like

I know George and I don't think George is having sex with kids at Epstein's. Like Epstein was, you know, just part of like the social fabric, right? And Trump knew him for that reason also. But when he killed himself, I remember thinking people like he didn't kill himself. I was like, he probably killed himself, you know, he's in jail, whatever. His brother Mark called me a couple days after he killed himself and So began this like three year long conversation with Mark Epstein and looking into it in in a way I never thought I would he didn't kill himself. He was murdered in his cell. Yeah, and

I think that's really meaningful. It's the most secure federal lockup in the United States How can that happen? It can't happen without state actors involved. That's right. Look at the story that we were told at that time. Part of the information dump here by the administration is some hours of footage. We were told that footage didn't exist. We were told that this was some guards who were, you know,

off duty, they fell asleep. This was, and none of it exists and actually, you know, it was all part of a screw up and the camera angles wouldn't even be able to show anything, but that's why they're relatively confident. So where did this camera footage even come from? Well, the camera footage doesn't even, first of all, it ends before they take his body out. Why can't we see that?

And the angle on it is absurd. But the real question, just not to be pedantic, but the real question is who are the other inmates on that cell block? So no one came in or out of the cell block. I think that's fair. It was the most secure cell block in that federal lockup in Manhattan. But who are the other inmates? And I went to the Department of Prisons, which is part of DOJ, and asked, like, what are

their names? Oh, we can't for privacy reasons. Really? These are people who can't vote or own a firearm, you know, for the rest of their lives, but somehow they've got like a HIPAA law or something around who's a federal inmate? Fuck you, actually. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. their lives, but somehow they've got like a HIPAA law or something around who's a federal inmate? Fuck you, actually. Yeah, yeah.

Sorry. It made me so mad because, of course, if Epstein was murdered, and it's very clear that he was, he was murdered by another inmate. That's right. And we know that a bunch of them were transferred out of that unit right after he died. Who were they? Where are they now? Like, why can't we get an answer to that question?

The whole thing that this tape shows that he didn't kill himself is like a joke, but worse than that, it's a joke that we all get. They're not fooling anybody. So I feel like we're at a dangerous point now. Yeah, I agree because the lie at this point is not even part of trying to convince any of this is true. Yes, yes. The lie is a signal to everybody else involved in the scheme

that to the ultimate ends, the United States government will go to protect all of you. And that's the question. Man, that's smart. For what purpose? Can you say that again? Yes. I'm sorry. It's a signal. The lie is not for you and me. The lie is for those implicated to say, no matter what,

we will protect you. And then we have to start asking the question why as in what is the purpose of this entire thing why does it matter that it happens right before these really prime minister comes to Washington for the third time as you said what is the linkage here between those two and the linkage is the fact that even a surface level view of Jeffrey Epstein of the case, of the entire public record reveals Alex Acosta, who said he belonged to intelligence. He said that, the person who was responsible for the sweetheart 13 month deal. Alex Acosta, who was the US attorney said, and I believe he testified this in sworn testimony, said I was told he belonged to intelligence. That was a key part of why he,

the charges were dropped against him. And he got some sweetheart Palm Beach County jail situation where he was allowed to leave on the weekends. And why, even though I know you'll forgive George, but I actually won't. I don't have dinner with pedophiles. I'm not sure about you. I'm generally aware of the people who I am around.

And if I can get invited to someone's house, I do cursory Google searches. I'm generally aware of the people who I am around and if I can get invited to someone's house, I do cursory Google searches. That's generally what, you know, I think that's normal. I don't want to be in the presence of people who I think are like genuinely evil. That's what I think. So for me, I actually can't forgive many of the media figures and the, you know, the presidents, people like Bill Clinton, Kevin Spade, all these other high profile figures, specifically because it was all out in the public record.

And then in particular, all of these high flying Wall Street financiers and Deutsche Bank, remember they were fined, I think it was the New York financial services. I read that entire report. It's one of the most extraordinary reports I've ever seen because they specifically talk about how the bank ignored almost every single one of its own procedures,

that it would apply to any other client, and that at the highest levels, and remember, I think it's the Barclays CEO, he's already been in trouble for this, for covering up much of this in one of the largest financial institutions in the entire world. For example, Tucker, if you and I keep going to the bank

and withdrawing $9,900 in cash, and we do it for a couple of weeks, our banking institutions are supposed to call both the IRS and the DOJ and say, something is going on here. And they will. And they will, and they should, right? That is what, this is done for a reason.

He did this for years. And the classification that the bank accepted was it was just for tips. This is what I mean about the highest level of the cover-up and what the What the cover-up means for the system itself and something you and I were talking about recently is I really believe here And I've never believed it more that in a sense, you know for elected government and for all the benefits of our Republic and of representation that elites actually have always mattered and of course they're the ones who run, they're the ones responsible for channeling public energy, this is the way that we're set up,

into law, into policy, etc. And so this lie was a signal to the elites, it was a signal to Versailles, it was a signal to the court that the court will always be protected no matter what. And it's enraging at a moment when the court has never been will always be protected no matter what and it's enraging at a moment when the court has never been more reviled by the public. It's not just a spit in the face of the public, it really is like a late, you know, it's a late 1700s kind of signal to the court that we will protect this institution no matter what and it's really a question for the rest of us as if we're going to continue to put up with this. I wonder what our recourse is.

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And can I say one thing that I've just been, I was brooding about this morning? When the Epstein thing first happened, when he died, and I was, I'll plead ignorance and lack of interest, I was like distracted, there's a lot of stuff going on. I get a call from someone I know, who I like, who's a true hardcore neocon, many of whom I liked personally, who's writing a book on Epstein. Two people I know together wrote this book on Epstein.

I don't wanna name them, I don't wanna be mean or anything. But they're like, can we come on your show? We've written a book on Epstein and this whole scandal. So I read the book and it's very sophisticated. And it's like Epstein's super bad, but the Epstein story's really limited to Epstein and this whole scandal. So I read the book and it's very sophisticated and it's like Epstein's super bad but the Epstein story is really limited to Epstein, this bad guy who died and there's no, you know, there's no evidence it was part of anything bigger that had anything to do with other countries and they come on my show and I interview them and they're like, no, you know, yeah

there's all this stuff, mysteries, we couldn't get to the bottom of it. But you know, Epstein's really, really bad. And I, looking back, I'm like, that was all, like that was by design. Yes. Right, it was like, wow, we're exposed here. And we need to, you know, we need to like throw, we need a Warren commission actually.

No, you're right. Except a real one this time. It didn't work because, you know, Vanity Fair, to its great credit, wrote a couple of pieces, then they stopped covering it, I noticed, but they kind of got to the Wexner thing. Who's this Wexner guy?

Who is this? Who is Les West, actually? And what ties do these guys have to foreign intel services? Yes. Which were deep. I mean, I think, Edward Barak lived at Jeffrey Epstein's place on Fifth Avenue. He flew on his plane 30 times, lived often at his townhouse in Manhattan. At one time,

the largest residence in the history of New York City transferred to him by deed by Leslie Wexner. For what purpose? We have no idea. He invested in Ehud Barak's defense intelligence startup. And I think the defense intelligence part there may be even as interesting as the fact that as a former Israeli prime minister and former head of Israeli military intelligence. I mean, this is what I'm saying about the money. The money is so important to the story because we already have documented cases of CIA, Israeli, and others buying up private corporations, which pose as, let let's say cybersecurity firms that sell to the government or other governments and use those as backdoors So look if you're a Barak you've probably met, you know, some of the richest people on the planet

Why do you need you know these investments from Jeffrey Epstein of all people a tax advisor to the super rich? What did Bill Gates get from his repeated involvement with Jeffrey Epstein? Why did Melinda Gates, you know, divorce Bill Gates after years and an obvious knowledge of his philandering in the past? Are we really to believe it's about philandering, you know, from 20 years ago, which is well known apparently within Microsoft? No, it's because she probably started to get a little aware or perhaps there was something else going on there as to the extent of what that relationship was. And you know, the fact is, is even from public reporting,

we're told that Jeffrey Epstein was seen by Gates as the conduit to win the Nobel Peace Prize. How, for what purpose? How does he have all of these ends with the highest level of the intelligence or the scientific community? And then of course, I mean, it doesn't take a genius to see the intertwinement between the scientific community the academic research industrial complex and the

intelligence community so all of these pieces this is the unfortunate part and you know even returning like you said to him being killed himself let or him allegedly killing himself let's not forget Michael Bodden who I think is a very authoritative figure you know he reviewed all of the documents, the autopsy, et cetera. He said, this is not a case of suicide. I've talked to him about it. Yes, and it's like, let's remember. I mean, he's one of the most, you know,

what, probably the most famous forensic, like forensic. Pathologist, yeah. Yeah, pathologist in America. And his research has been very, or his diagnosis has been very important in a lot of other previous cases, which turned out to be true. And so when he looks at this and we have that evidence, when we have the cover up here now

at the government, I'm just appalled that this is happening at the highest level. But my only conclusion is just to return is it's just a signal to the court is don't worry about it. We've got you. The people don't matter in this case. Man, I think this for a bunch of reasons, it's so obvious, it is salacious. People have followed it for years. The president promised to reveal the truth about this.

Bambandi, as you said, well, on television, said we have the truth and we're gonna give it to you. Yes. I think this is kind of, I think this is a big deal. It's a really big deal. I hope so. Well, I hope so too, actually. So let's just assess this logically.

They're covering up, the DOJ, the current DOJ under Pam Bondi is covering up crimes, very serious crimes by their own description. Why are they doing that? Yeah. So there are really only two potential explanations that I can think of, maybe you've got another. The first is that Trump is involved,

that Trump is on the list, that they've got tape of Trump doing something awful. I don't believe that for two reasons. One, I've talked to Trump about it a lot, and I know him. He's not that, for whatever his sins, I don't think he's that guy, actually. I don't think he likes creepy sex stuff.

That's just my view. But moreover, but more, I think, convincing is that this is all information that the Biden administration had. And if there was evidence that Trump had been involved in illegal sexual activity, you think the people who made up Russiagate wouldn't have leaked it?

Come on now. So the only other explanation that I can think of, again, maybe you've got another, is that Intel services are at the very center of this story, US and Israeli, and they're being protected. I think that seems like the most plausible. That's the most obvious. I have a history of this. There have been multiple documented cases of pedophilia inside of the CIA perpetrated by CIA officers, documented that in many of those can't believe over a dozen cases This was a BuzzFeed news piece years back where the CIA specifically did not want to prosecute those individuals in federal court for fear that they would reveal sources and methods if they were pulled Into open court and they basically just made it go away

The only time they actually prosecuted somebody for child pornography was whenever he'd already been prosecuted for mishandling classified information. Well when they want to crush you they put kiddie porn in your computers. Why don't have a computer? Don't own one. If you're an important person you should be careful. No computer in my house. This is an important thing though is that we already have documented cases of them covering this up. I believe the CIA Inspector General, I forget the exact quote, but he said something along the lines of you wouldn't even believe the amount of child porn you know that I've seen while I'm on this job I mean these are depraved look I mean it's a large organization a small percentage of the USP you know we can make that argument I think there is like something

pathological you know kind of in the minds of the people who excel in this type of environment. Of course it's based on lying. And lying is the gateway drug to every other sin. Of course, in the veil of secrecy that protects the CIA up to and including its budget, which we can't know, makes all kinds of really evil behavior possible. In fact, it inspires it. If you felt, if you had the cloak of invisibility, would that improve or degrade your behavior? Yes, yes.

No, I'm serious. Everyone knows the answer to that. Of course you'd be like, I'm invisible. At some point you're going to have to go up and go like, you know, you couldn't. Well, and they see that. It doesn't make you a better person. They see their own colleagues getting away with it and it's a permission structure. And so look, I mean, that's a small case, but it just shows us that it's obvious.

And it's something that has been in multiple intelligence communities have been ensnared in this again I highly recommend Darrell Cooper's episode on the entire Epstein saga because I didn't know about this case in Listen to that. Oh, right. I was informed credibly informed by Mark within that he was a Holocaust denier Oh, I mean words words are supposed to have meaning, you know And can I ask about the neocons who are I, keep in mind that it was Jay Lefkowitz, who's Bill Kristol's lawyer, who represented the Weekly Standard when I worked there, who was an Epstein lawyer.

And so like, where is Mark Levin on Epstein? I noticed that all these very voluble people who do not hesitate before imposing their opinions on the rest of us suddenly don't have very strong opinions about Epstein. What is that? Every accusation is actually an admission. And so-

But why is Mark Levin covering for Epstein? That's kind of weird. Yes, that's weird. That's a great question. And in particular, when he's gonna accuse you of being funded by the Qatari government. And that's right. If only.

Right, that's what I mean about the accusation is the admission. The Qatari government. The accusation, you know, they concoct all these wild schemes about how Steve Wichoff or me or you or anybody else is funded by the state of Qatar, when in reality, I mean, as you know,

it's like, you guys wanna talk about foreign funding? Like, let's go, let's take a look at your C3s and release all of the data. It's so wild. I will be happy to take a look at it for you. Especially Qatar. I found out last night at dinner, you went to high school in Qatar.

Yes, I did. Yeah, they love to use that one. I went to high school in Qatar. Yes, I did. Yeah, they love to use that one. I went to high school, my last two year American school of Doha. By the way, I don't think the Qatar government likes me very much because I've talked quite a bit about how a lot of migrant laborers are abused there. But of course they still find that,

is that tenuous connection is some sort of, admission supposedly I'm funded. The only people who fund me are my business and the people who are pretty subscribers, which is great. And that's part of the reason I can speak the way that I am. I literally dare them to disclose their donors and those ties to the Israeli government and Israel lobby. I dare them to do it and they never will

or any of the other foreign governments that directly prop them up. And this brings us to Epstein. Why, you know, the Epstein, Leslie Wexner Foundation under Jeffrey Epstein paid Eud Barak $2.3 million to write two papers. I believe he did not even finish the second one. This is a nonprofit, the funnel of money. Really? What's going on with that? Can I get that gig? Yeah, can I? That sounds like a great gig. You know, for anybody out there

struggling with their bills, money is easy, okay? Whenever you're willing to engage in a lot of very sketchy behavior, and this is a pattern I've noticed all across Washington, is that they ignore strategically the Epstein story because it's inconvenient. And it's not, or not even really inconvenient. I think it's just so deeply enmeshed here. And I just bring it back to Alex Acosta. He told us the truth once, which was, or not us, he told them the truth once. In sworn testimony, he belonged to intelligence.

And we've never, I mean, with Maxwell, who we have all of these documented ties to Mossad and to the intelligence community and all of these sketchy dealings. And then his daughter working with Epstein. We have the Wexner Foundation, which we know is highly involved in Zionist interests here in the United States of America. We have Epstein as well, who's been linked to some of these organizations,

or at least through fundling money via the Wexner Foundation. We know about his past, you know, with money laundering for what purpose? That is the crux of the intelligence community's ability to move things around and to pay for off the books, extremely off the books activity, it traces back to the lying. As you said, as part of why we can't have the truth around. You probably heard about 8 Sleep. Lots of people are talking about it. It is a company with one mission, improving your sleep.

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We don't have enough allies in my opinion. I'm hardly in isolation. Or we have the wrong allies. We're the wrong allies, but the number is dwindling. So it's, right, only a couple real allies left and I'm not even sure they're allies, but whatever. But why couldn't you have at least conceptually a situation where you act in your own interest

and to the extent that other countries share that interest, there's a union set of interests, you ally with them, you know, transactionally. In other words, we're both, we both wanna build an oil pipeline somewhere, we both want this shipping lane open, or we're both mad at this other country. You know, it's like, why couldn't you have that?

It's so difficult. I mean, that's why I mentioned Israel previously in the example. I think it's really important. I mean, if you were to listen to Fox News, you would think that this is the greatest juggernaut economy in the history of the world. I mean, I had Chachi P.T. do a mathematical analysis and I said, give me five countries that best resemble the US-Israel trading relationship.

And it was Singapore, you know, countries like Singapore, Chile, and Switzerland. And I love, like I love those countries. Switzerland. And I love those countries. I love those places. Frankly, I think Singapore has a better, you know, if we're talking about grand strategy and all of that, of the list, that would put that one higher than any of the rest. But we don't talk about this in the terms of actual transaction because then people might actually start to ask a lot of questions. I mean, I remember this with Ukraine. I was like, we barely do bilateral trade with this country.

It's one of the most insignificant countries in all of Europe to the US trading relationship. We can talk at, you know, the way they blow up the Israel relationships, Israel does our dirty work for us in the US. And I'm like, well, are they doing our dirty work or are they doing their own dirty work and then basically passing the buck and the bill on to the United States? Well, why would we outsource that anyway? Exactly. And so then it comes down to all these questions, like you said, of national interest. And even in the exception that we make for this country is just so unbelievable.

I mean, let's take the case of Jonathan Pollard, who's one of the biggest traitors in the history of the United States for passing classified information on to the Israeli government. They were caught out in the open. Prime Minister Netanyahu used to visit our soil and actively campaign and urge our presidents of the United States to pardon Jonathan Pollard for betraying our country to his country. Do you have any idea what they did

with the classified information, those secrets? Well, I actually have no idea, but what I do remember- They gave them to the Soviet Union. Oh, that's right, that's right. And this was during, this was in the 80s, during the Cold War. It was 1985, that's right. It was 85, I remember it well.

I lived in Washington, my dad worked for the government. And that was a, you know, that was a very serious, whatever you think of the Cold War in retrospect, but like at the time, the full focus of the US government was focused, you know, was in opposition to the Soviets. And the Israelis gave a lot of that classified information from the US Navy to the Soviet government in exchange for allowing refuseniks, you know, Jewish Soviet citizens to move to

Israel, which I'm totally for. I mean, I'm glad that they got out. I'm glad that they got out of the Soviet Union and made it to Israel. That's great. But they took our secrets and gave them to our main enemy, our really only global enemy. What? Yeah.

And then, and have the audacity. Well, then how can you have a relationship after that? Yeah, and have the audacity to come to our country and to lobby in seriousness to the presidents, to visit this man in prison, to grant him Israeli citizenship, to grant him basically the moment he's on parole, he immediately moves to Israel,

he received a hero's welcome and it remains there to this day. I mean, we would not allow that for any of the country. This is not a healthy relationship. This is not a healthy relationship, exactly. And that's an important thing for American Sunderstein. One of the many tragic byproducts is I think it's destroying the right.

And I say that as someone who's been on the right my whole life, and my whole life, I've been on the right and I really believe in the basic ideas and I'm not a liberal. That's for sure. In fact, I'm way more conservative than Mark Levin. That's for sure. But it's like the problem is the promise of MAGA is America first. And the contradiction is just too obvious. You can't, you know, if you're, if you're Joe Biden and you're, you know, senile and it's being run by a bunch of sinister shadowy figures in the background and you do something like this, it's like, of course they're doing it. But if you get up and you say, we're going

to restore greatness to this country, we're going to do it by putting our own interests first. That's what every country does. That's kind of natural, it's organic. And then you put the interests of a country of 9 million people above your own in a way that's just insulting. People can't deal with that. Like their brains start to explode. And I think this is blowing up the coalition.

I hope I'm wrong. I support the coalition. All these people are like, you're not MAGA. Really? Did you campaign for Trump? Right. Please. That's right.

I mean, please. You know, I'm liberal, okay. But I'm sorry. I worry about that. I feel like that's happening. I think you should be worried about it. And well, look, we can parse these things at a variety of levels. So the there's you said MAGA, and I think that's important.

I think the vast majority of people who are self-identified as MAGA, they supported the Iran strikes and they generally support President Trump and they have a lot of trust in the man. They do. What I keep trying to tell people is people are saying, oh there's a split in the MAGA, but you said it correctly, the right. And I would look at the right as the coalition that delivered Donald Trump the first popular vote victory since 2004. The margin of anti-war support for Donald Trump is his entire electoral margin in the state of Michigan. The entire electoral margin in the state of Michigan. And I think that his ability to win Michigan twice now, in three races, is pretty damn important for looking at the so-called realignment of the white

working class and of this new coalition. Let's also look, I actually on our show, our producer went to the Bronx AOC's district and interviewed people who were of the white working class and of this new coalition. Let's also look, I actually on our show, our producer went to the Bronx, AOC's district, and interviewed people who were AOC Trump voters. And the number one reason that we got from them was war. It was the promise to bring an end to the war, both in Israel and Gaza and in Ukraine, because there is something visceral.

Let's say that you live in the Bronx and you're having problems in your neighborhood and watching these countries get tens of billions of dollars. Three carrier strike groups of the United States of America were present in the Middle East specifically to back up Israel during the 12 day war. I, you know, you asked Ted Cruz a very important question. Do you know how much that costs?

I looked it up, you know, it's actually public information. It's about a quarter, I believe it's like a quarter billion dollars per group per month for deployment. That was just for the deployment. The April operation. That's separate from weapons fire. That's separate from all the, and by the way, that number, which they will never release, is in the billions of dollars. And then let's take opportunity costs. We basically used up a massive stockpile of US interceptors, which are critical for our bases in Qatar or for everywhere else around the world on behalf of this foreign nation, which we were told repeatedly the reason we give it 3.3 billion a year was so they can defend themselves.

Well, if they can defend themselves, then why did it take the full deployment of the US empire to basically shield it? And even then, in terms of it shielding, as you, I mean, I'm sure you felt the same way. I've been to Tel Aviv, watching that city get rocked by rockets was a shocking experience. That was not what we were talking about. I hated it too. I've been there. It's a beautiful city. The people there are great. And to watch their cities. I mean, that's some London level, you know photography from World War two and So the fact that that happened and that also by the way We just increase the defense budget to one trillion dollars for what purpose I can't exactly tell you because even with that money All spent in the past. It doesn't seem that we're all that competent at building interceptors at ammunition

Russia I believe is a defense budget like more than a what it, one quarter or something like that of the United States produces like more ammunition than all of NATO combined. How do these things happen? Right? So we have rife for corruption. The point is, is that MAGA and the right, let's say the non MAGA right, people who voted for Donald Trump in good faith on a variety of good promises. I think for those people, and especially younger Americans, there is a visceral disgust at watching the level of tension and obsession over this foreign nation. And it's particularly galling because we have people like Ted Cruz who say, why are you

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That's masach chips.com. Tucker code Tucker for 25% off your first order. Highly recommended. It's so exactly what liberals do. It's so exactly the woke, right? I mean, that it's bewildering and it's dishonesty. I'm not engaging off the internet, but I give up. But it's so revealing. It's like, wait, I just voted against this.

I voted against not just the argument, but the style of argument of the left, which is to not engage with the points that you make at all, to lie past them, ignore them, and instead attack your motive and your character. You're a racist. You know, you're getting paid by Russia. We moved seamlessly from that to like Mark Levin,

saying the same, exact same thing. You're a racist, you're anti-Semite, you're hanging around with Holocaust deniers. What? You're paid by a foreign country, Qatar, which I still find hilarious For the record, of course, I've never taken it all from anybody. I don't even have investors, but whatever But it's go to motive rather than us rather than engage with what you said I saw this all coming a mile away did yet because I'm heartbroken to see it. Well, well, you should be this way

You've been successful because you're smart Well, I mean I've taken a lot of it's cost me a lot of personal problems I could tell you that but I remember I believe it was right after October 7th bill Ackman and a lot of other Prominent Wall Street financiers who are very pro Israel. Well, I've been done a lot for our economy. Sorry. Oh, that's right. That's right Walking down publicly traded corporations and then shorting right. That's right. I forgot about that. I'm talking down publicly traded corporations and then shorting them. That's herbal life. It's capitalism. How are investors doing? I would just ask people to go and take a look at those books, but whatever. Let's take a look at Ackman.

He's a very patriotic guy who's done a lot for this country. So keep that in mind. Okay. Well, this patriotic American and a lot of these other pro-Israel billionaires were literally compiling lists of students who were protesting the Israeli government's response to October 7th. Many of these were American citizens compiling lists and basically saying don't ever hire these people and circulating them around the highest levels of Wall Street finance, of technology, getting people fired from law firms that they had offers to. Just because they criticized America? Because they criticized Israel.

What about America? Yes, that's an important question. But what I noticed, and I said this at the time, is for all of these people, it is now obvious that they never were really opposed to DEI. Oh, of course not. They paid for it. Yes, that's a great point.

What they wanted was they want their interest group, Zionism in particular, in support of the Israeli government to be included within the DEI regime. And that was a very important point because eventually that became fused somehow with MAGA. And that explains a huge level of a lot of very high profile, very, very rich people in technology, industry, and in finance who supported the Trump administration. And the promise effectively that has now been delivered is that by using this newly crafted

like DEI style regime, which basically uses the state and the police state as effectively a force for a political party in Israel. That's another thing that I love when you say this as well. It's not about even Israel at this point. We're talking about the Likudnik interests in the United States of America. A guy who got 30% of the vote. 30% of the vote who is under investigation for taking money from who? Qatar, right? It's amazing. He's literally fired the head of his own FBI for bribery allegations from Qatari money in his government and has the gall to have his, you know his interest groups here in America accuse people like you and me of taking money from the very same government

that he's been credibly accused of taking. Now listen, I don't know, Trump says he's innocent or whatever. Pretty cheeky. Pretty cheeky, I would say. It is cheeky. And to bring it back, I guess, is what you said is about America. And the fact is, is that we're watching the weaponization, largely backed by a lot of these people who have hijacked,

I think, a large part of the American, maybe they didn't hijack at it, maybe I'm the idiot, right? I could be the idiot for believing some of these things. Why did I read Christopher Caldwell's book and listen to Christopher Ruffo and others about the civil rights regime and all of this criticism correctly of Ibrahim Kendi and the department of anti-racism and the enshrinement of DEI and the civil rights regime and all of this criticism correctly of Ibrahim Kendi and the

Department of Anti-Racism and the enshrinement of DEI and the Civil Rights Administration just to watch it get turned around and again not even be used against people who are anti-American but people who are supporting a boycott of a foreign nation, a country here now where students could burn an American flag and be fine but if they protest Israel could be liable for either deportation if they're not a citizen or denied federal grant funding. The current Trump administration is suing, using the Civil Rights Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, Harvard University for not protecting Jewish students under the indifferent standard. Now, that same standard was used for some of the worst excesses in the 1970s and others of the civil rights. These are things we're

supposed to be against. This is DEI, you know, run amok. And yet we're watching this happen in our own government. And I don't see, you know, there's so many people, Ben Shapiro. There are a lot of bias against Jewish students at Harvard. Oh, no. Underrepresented. Not last time I checked. I mean, I guess what I object to is lying, of course, above all, but also I object to these kinds of identity politics.

Exactly. I thought the whole point was were Americans by citizenship. Yes. Citizenship matters, as it did in Rome. I mean, it did. Paul's on trial in Rome and he's like, hey, I'm a Roman citizen. They're like, whoa, they back right off.

Cause like that really meant something. And should be. It should mean something, I think. And they're continuing in this weird leftist frame where certain people have more rights than other people. That's right. And that's what we're watching. I just couldn't object to that more.

And every American should. And look, you may not like these people. That's right. And that's what we're watching. I just couldn't object to that more. Every American should. And look, you may not like these people. I probably wouldn't get along with a lot of these people. But let's sit here and talk about Harvard, like you said. I mean, to watch, literally, it's been 10 years ago, I was sitting with my friends in the Daily Caller office, which we were very kind to hire me into, and we were watching Ben Shapiro humiliate Trigley Puff, right? We're watching leftist students get triggered and cry when Ben Shapiro would visit campus. And we thought it was hilarious. 10 years later, I watched students literally crying

at a podium with the House of Representative Speaker, Mike Johnson next to them, talking about how I didn't feel safe while I was on campus. And it's like, well, why didn't you feel safe? Because people were shouting slogans of again, protesting a foreign government. Now that's actually a lot more about the psychology of you, but regardless, I mean,

did we not live through a decade of snowflake and fuck your feelings? Because I was there for that. And I'm not gonna sit here and watch people who made millions of dollars, Shapiro and Dave Rubin and all these other people making fun of student, leftist students only to co-opt the same level of identity politics. And like you said about Harvard, okay, like this is important.

What is the problem with Harvard? To me, the problem of Harvard is it took our most elite institute, Harvard is, you know, the whole Ivy League, our most elite students, it crippled them with debt, and 41% of graduates now work in finance, consulting, and tech. Okay? Some of the worst industries that are directly extractive of the American consumer, basically getting rich on their backs, addicting them to, you know, crippling financial products, technology, consult, I don't even know what a lot of people in consulting do, apparently

they make a lot of money doing it. Is that a productive industry for our country? No. And then Harvard University admitted the same, actually less students in the class of 2023 than it did in 1981. The US population has grown 110 million since that point. Now, why do they do that? It's for ultra exclusivity. It's to jack up prices for their tuition. They admitted fewer students than in 81? Than in 81. And the US population has grown 110 million since that point. Has their administrative staff grown? Of course. But actually you're not even asking the right question. What about their endowment fund? They're basically a private

equity firm with a small education department. And you know, they lobby against the endowment tax through Congress. The endowment tax says, hey, increase your student body size relative to your endowment, and you don't have to pay any tax. But they don't do that because it's all about artificial constraints, saddling these kids up with debt, basically taking the best and brightest of the United States of America and turning them into cogs of the managerial capitalism. That is not the Harvard University of the, you know, the early, let's say the World War Two period. That is not the Harvard University of the, you know, the early, let's say the World War II period. That is not the MIT. They're all doing the same thing. Those universities were our crown jewel and got government money from them so that they could

set up and go work in industries that were productive and beneficial to our country. That's my current critique of Harvard. I think that's one most Americans would agree with. I think that's my critique of higher education in general. It's not the Middle Eastern Studies Department, okay? It's not suing them under the Civil Rights Act. And to just to watch this weaponization right now, by Pam Pond. It's such a lie.

It is a lie. I mean, if you really wanna play like the demographics game and who's getting shafted and like, well, who gets into Harvard actually? Yeah, that's right, let's take a actually? Let's see the numbers and does that reflect the US population? In fact, let's get even radical on the subject. Let's measure it against IQ tests.

No, I'm sure you can say, well, you know, the American population is not all qualified to go to Harvard. Okay, great. So how about let's use SAT scores as a proxy for IQ. Is Harvard letting in the smartest people? No, in fact, there is a concerted effort right now to drop or abandon SAT or any other quantitative measure specifically to enshrine more of this DEI style.

Yeah, so who's actually getting discriminated against here? Exactly, and so then. It's too much though. I don't even wanna have that conversation. I know the answer, because I know the numbers, which I'm not going to repeat here. But because I don't want to add to the identity politics stuff because I think it's a dead end.

That's not what we're about. I don't want to be about that. We want to live in a more equitable country. That's it. Right, they're pushing us toward it. But the problem is when you lie that aggressively and you use my government to do it and all of its armed institutions to do it,

then you force me. You're making people radical with the stuff. Yes, and they should be. I mean, I don't want radicalism, but they're forcing when the Congress passes 22 anti-Semitism resolutions in the last few years. And there's still a lot of bias in America, you know? And there was still a lot of bias in America, you know, and there was still a lot of problems in America

that are totally unaddressed and they're getting worse. You turn people radical, that's, I'm worried about that. One of those resolutions they passed through the House actually conflated antisemitism with anti-Zionism, which is, you know, I mean, they're literally saying it is antisemitic as in- It is a crime to criticize a foreign country. ...a foreign country or even an ideology which believes in the existence of a foreign country.

Why are they doing this? Why are they doing this? Well, I mean, look... It's bonkers, man. It's bonkers. It's beyond bonkers and I wish money were the answer. I'm not saying it isn't just a critical part of it. It is a part of just this propagandistic campaign to convince that this is our greatest ally,

that actually we would die before we would let any of them die. And a lot of it is enshrined, unfortunately, in like a bastardization of Christian and rabbinical theology, as Ted Cruz revealed. I mean, actually, what really revealed to me was he didn't even really know what he was saying, what he was quoting. But he was taught that really know what he was saying. He had no idea. What he was quoting. But he was taught that's what he was supposed to say. But that's a legitimate belief. It's in the Bible.

Right. That's how we end up with Brian Mass wearing the uniform of a foreign country in my Congress. And that's what offends me more than anything is the only uniform, in my opinion, that a United States Congress person should ever wear is that of the United States of America well, yeah, and and I would say to the You know to to MAGA voters This is the program we voted for the one that puts our country where we were born at the center of the conversation At the top of the priority list. Yes, so those are the rules. So like anyway

Where does this i'm worried that the contradictions are too obvious, the lies are too transparent, this is too insulting. You can't, I can't even deal with it. I feel like I'm the least radical person I know. I just, I'm happy to not talk about certain subjects just so we can all get along. I'm a wasp in the end. I don't want conflict, okay?

I know everyone thinks I'm like, I don't hate conflict actually, but they're forcing this on all of us. And I feel like the system is breaking as a result. Yeah. I mean, I do. And the reason I mean, it's, I don't think Marx actually said it, but that, you know, in accelerationism, it's about heightening the contradictions. It's a Marxian theory.

And in a way, like I do think that that's what they're doing to all of us is they're forcing people who are sympathetic, who want to see our country first, who would reject a lot of the premises of the left, spent a decade of our lives, in my case, you spent multiple decades of your life, fighting against many of these forces, which we found repulsive, which we blame for the destruction of our country. And then watching that get hijacked. And again, maybe I'm the fool. There was plenty of evidence it could go this way. I didn't think it would. I didn't think in particular it would go this far.

But it's one of those where the breaking is happening at a voter level. And in particular, in the platform that you and I are speaking right now, I mean, as you know, I began my career by just going on Fox News. It's how I got trained in television. Obviously you started,

and you've been on all of these platforms. We could not even have this conversation. I would say 10 years ago. I don't think that the distribution and the audience and just the entire network that enables this possibility was there, but it's been felt at a deep level in the way that Oliver Stone's JFK film released something in America in 1991.

It's always been inside of us, but now we have the voice, we have the words, but next is the tools. And a lot of people thought we had that tools with this administration. Can you just pause right now? So I should just say you alluded to it, you worked for me, not directly, but for a company that I helped start.

And then at like a really young age, you decided to punch, you were one of the very first people I knew personally, decided to punch out and go independent because you had this really clear and it turned out correct view that the two party system, well, there are differences between the parties, but fundamentally they were aligned on the big issues and that a lot of voters didn't agree with their position on the big issues, mostly the economy and war. And you kind of moved out into this independent media world at what age?

I was 28, I guess. That's crazy. So, yeah, 28 years old. So, if you don't mind if it's not too embarrassing, because you told me that I asked you a bunch of very specific questions about it last night because I'm in that business, 28 years old. So, if you don't mind if it's not too embarrassing, because you told me that I asked you a bunch of very specific questions about it last night, because I'm in that business, I'm interested. What, like how you leave the Daily Caller, you go on Fox a lot, you're like a young pundit or whatever.

So embarrassing, I did it too, I know, it's so embarrassing. And then you decide to go independent, what happened? Can you just give us that brief story? Cause I think it says a lot about the moment. Well, I owe a lot to the organization you started and to Jeffrey Ingersoll, to Vince, to Neil Patel and all of these guys. And the reason why is they put me in the position

that made me have this realization. And what it was is being a White House correspondent and what I discovered as being a White House correspondent. I mean, I don't want to toot my own horn. I think I was good at it. I interviewed Trump four times in two years. I asked Sarah being a White House correspondent. I mean, I don't want to toot my own horn. I think I was good at it. I interviewed Trump four times in two years. I asked several, you know, multiple questions

for the record, multiple different foreign leaders, you know, got stories, scoops, et cetera. But what I came to understand in the White House briefing room is I would watch, so for people who don't understand, in the front row is all the networks, the major networks, run by the White House Correspondents Association, which is a cartel, a non-governmental cartel, which runs the entire, I can get into that later

if we would like. But I would watch every single person from the network ask some version of the same question, which was about Robert Mueller at the time. And I said, no one gives a shit about Robert Mueller. And I would always ask a question not about that. What I came to understand was that they were actually all performing for themselves. And what I really came to understand eventually was that the entire mainstream media is about performing for each other, for social and for career purposes. But even more broadly is that the mainstream media is a trade publication and it's a trade publication for people in Washington and for people in power.

There is a boomer legacy element to this, which obviously exists, but broadly it's not actually about informing the people. In fact, but broadly, it's not actually about informing the people. In fact, in terms of the journalism that I did, I tried to always ask questions that I thought were relevant to the actual voters, but I didn't realize how counter that was to the entire philosophy of a lot of the people who actually work and cover the media professionally. Then I came to see that Fox, CNN, MSNBC are all vital parts of this machine. It's all part of a machine where Washington as the imperial capital speaks to each other. They're conduits for

information, which is relevant only to an individual node within the nexus. The voter did not matter in that equation. So what I decided to do is I had this opportunity to go to the Hill, currently thehill.com and co-host this show with currently my co-host Crystal Ball. And what her and I really bonded over, remember the first segment we really bonded over was just about the opioid crisis. And I was like, I think that this is one of the most under addressed issues in America that gets lip service, you know, at the White House and others, nobody's really doing anything about it. Deaths of despair, our life expectancy at that time was going down. And so we just, you know, that's, that was kind of the evolution, like you said, of realizing that where the two parties agree and the media in particular focuses on is really the

exact opposite of where most people are. If you spend a lot of your time with people who are not political, they don't care about Robert Mueller. They don't particularly care about most of the scandals in Washington of the day. They're like, Hey, my mortgage is really expensive. My kids college really, if I was lucky enough to save for a 529, the inflation has gotten so out of control, I can't do that. I'm really worried about the loan that my child is taking out. One of my friend's kids recently died of a drug overdose. These are the things that animate, you know, the kitchen table and about the concern and

the feeling that our country is being taken away from me. The southern border, and it's not just a feeling of there's uncontrolled chaos at the border. There's a feeling of the collapse of social cohesion in our country. All of us can feel it. If you go to another country like Switzerland or Japan with controlled immigration,

you will realize how radical it is actually. And those are both very radicalizing experiences for me. But I just returned to the point of why I wanted to go independent fundamentally is I wanted to cover the news in a way that I felt was actually applicable to the lives of everyday people. And I noticed a burgeoning movement on YouTube

and in podcasts where this distribution platform basically allowed me to talk as long as I want to in the way that I am with you. And I mean, the most frustrating moments in my career, 24 years old, young, embarrassing pundit is being invited on Fox News at 11.55 PM for a three-person conversation about nationalism. And I got to speak for maybe 45 seconds.

I can't articulate all my thoughts on this subject. And they're actually really important. And that's where the fugazi element of all of that, it became too much and I just felt so much more free. And by the way, as you know, at that time, everybody told me not to do it. They're like, what are you doing? You've got your career set, you're a White House correspondent, you can go work in any

of these other companies. You know, a lot of other companies were trying to recruit me at that time. They said, you're an idiot for going to this unproven concept. You don't know if it's going to work. And it was, I mean, the greatest bet, I guess, of my life because we took this small channel, Crystal and I, of some 6,000, I think we had 100,000 subscribers in three months, and we had an audience of millions,

basically, by the time we'd left less than two years later. But that was the confidence that I had to go independent was I knew that the knowledge was there. Why did you leave if it was working Well the knowledge basically it became Irreconcilable to be attached to a mainstream media organization and I've talked about this publicly But the owners and the people who worked there We were starting to become so popular that our comments were causing problems in Washington is that people were getting upset at the things

We would say advertisers or members of Congress, they would call our bosses and pressure began to come down to kind of change the way that we would talk about certain subjects. This is by the way happens in every mainstream media corporation. It's part of the reason that being the way we set up our business is so the vast majority of our revenue comes from subscriptions. And it's because we don't want to be accountable to any advertiser or anybody else. We don't even read ads on our platform specifically for that reason. And it's all to insulate my ability to be able to come here and talk the way that I do about a subject I feel passionately about, let's say Israel and free speech, which I know already, every word that I'm saying here is going to be dissected, is going to be used as an attack vector.

And in the past, that could have cost me my career. And at the end of the day, that's why I decided to leave, is to be able to speak the truth. That's why Crystal as well was the level of control, inevitably, even with the freest hand possible while attached to these behemoths, mainstream media, it's irreconcilable. If you want to tell the truth, you cannot be attached to any organization, which depends on insider access and on insider money. You have to separate yourself from that entity. Well, yes, that has been the experience of my life.

What were the red lines, did you? I'm sure you're young and you're, as you're hosting this show on a kind of brand new medium, this weird setup where you're working for the Hill, but you're doing an independent show. You're learning what you're not allowed to say. Yeah. Can't criticize the age of members of Congress. How did that work out, by the way, conversations around age? Can't criticize TikTok, the Chinese government. That was a big one. Can't criticize or talk openly about Israel.

Can't criticize, my favorite was CNBC, Jim Cramer. That's a real story. Can't criticize Jim Cramer? Which is hilarious. If you go on Twitter, there's an entire inverse Cramer index. People get rich betting against Jim. People get very rich. Jim Cramer is so stupid that people get rich taking the opposite advice. I still laugh about that one. What happened? I said he was an idiot and you know, we heard a little bit about that later. Your bosses are like, no, we can't say things like that, you know.

But no, but. Cramer's very smart. He went to Harvard. Farma, I forgot Farma. We talked a lot about Big Farm. That's, you know, that's one. I mean, look, take a look at the ads, really. But it's it wasn't that it because I didn't actually change anything I said, but I can't sit here and not lie to my ought to this audience and say that it was never it was always In the back of my head. Oh, yeah. Oh for sure. You don't even realize how yes how present it is in your head until it's not there

Look, I mean I was young, you know, I need a career to eat, you know I have a salary these are realities that I'm just laying out for people. Yes. And as, you know, as free and as ethical as I tried to uphold myself in a crystal as well, we couldn't, we just could not stay in that environment. And that's why we decided to go. So then you decide to go and you basically take a version of the same show, totally independent on the internet, relying on subscriptions, mostly subscriptions

rather than advertising for the reasons you just so well described. What happens? Yeah, I mean, it's wildly exceeds our expectations on the very first day of launch. Both enabled- On the first day? The first day of launch, I mean,

they basically enabled us to run the company for a year, which was insane. I mean, it's not- In other words, you made enough on your very first day- Yeah, we made enough, yes. To run it debt-free for a year. To run the. I mean, in other words, you made enough on your very first day to run it debt free for a year. To run the company. How many investors did you have?

We had zero investors. The only investors, quote unquote, were my credit card account and her credit card account. So it was a gamble entirely of our own. If you don't mind me asking, what did it cost to launch it? I believe probably like $50,000 or $60,000, if I had to guess. But that was it. And a lot of- The whole enterprise.

The whole enterprise, just to launch, to launch, not to run. In one day, you got a full year's operating revenue. What we were able to do, and actually enough so that we were even also able to hire, like at the time we needed a sound person. These are all important things. Lighting, an entire technical team, the ability to make sure that we're distributing faster. These are all more boring things for the audience, but things that people may not realize. The reason I'm asking you is because your story describes how low the barrier to entry is. Yes.

If you know what you want to say, if you have a point of view, if you're committed to honesty and independence, you can actually do it. You can do it. That's why it's so thrilling. That is why it's thrilling. I mean, I was taking a look at your setup this morning and I was talking to some of your tech guys and I said, isn't it amazing that we couldn't even do this 10 years ago?

And I'm looking at your equipment. I have much of the same equipment. I mean, look, it's decent money, but it's not a lot of money actually. Especially compared to, I mean, you and I have seen those, the Fox News New York control room. I mean, it's like being in the International Space Station, it's crazy. Oh, when they fired me, they came and sent their control room. I mean, it's like being in the International Space Station.

It's crazy. Oh, when they fired me, they came and sent their guys up here and ripped, cause I did my show from here for years and they ripped out all their equipment, which is fine. It was their equipment. Yeah, sure. And so we're like, and we have a full studio that, you know, we built with their money, you know, my guys built it,

but whatever, and they put all their tech in there. And then they took it all away. I wasn't mad, but I was like, okay, I have to pay for this now, and I'm in my pocket, because I'm unemployed, and we just moved to our dining room table, where it was literally our family dining room table where we're sitting now, and it didn't cost that much. So I think that's, and the only,

I never talk about money or business, or because I'm not an expert on either one, but I just think it's so exciting to know that you can do that. And I hope that's inspiring to people who are out there. I think really what it comes down to is not only audience, but the ability to say what you actually think. And what I have found is that some of the most miserable people in all of media are

the people who work in these corporations because they know and want to say many of the things you and I are saying. And they'll tell us privately Of course, they'll never say it and I don't really know how much money that's worth But beyond that I don't really know how as a human being, you know You can just continue to get up and well, I agree and I empathize because I was a TV anchor for most of my life I empathize with the guys who like get the guest read out you know, they sit down before the show who we interviewed today and there's Mark Levin on there and like

Nobody likes Mark Levin and he's horrible television, he's screechy, and what he's saying is deranged. And even if you sort of agree with Mark Levin's point of view, you can't have Mark Levin on TV. It's just an insult to the audience, and it's an insult to the anchor. And having to see Mark Levin and turning off camera, being like, this fucking guy again? Why are we doing this?

And they're going to be like, oh, the second floor told us to do it. Oh! Even if you're totally on board with killing every Muslim or whatever their program is, that still has got to drive you crazy. It's like an assault on your self-respect every single time. But what I found, and I'm sure you find the same,

is that what I saw for them is they started to believe that proximity to power is power itself. And what I found really gross about that is they start to fetishize like the most ridiculous things as in who gets the first rope line when you get to ask Trump a question. I mean, the amount of actual physical fighting that happens in that scrum, people would genuinely not believe. Really? I got hit in the head once actually with an elbow from a

photographer for taking his spot, even though there's no one assigned spots. Again, these are minutiae, but what I'm saying is it's a level of psychosis that takes over because in the White House press corps, everything is about access to the president. And so everybody is jockeying in a zero sum environment where everyone is trying to get the interview or going to schmooze this person or that person. But the problem with that is they turn from practitioner to starting to believe that they themselves are important and this vital conduit of information.

And what you turn into is basically an apparatchik of the state environment that I'm talking about. And so for many of the anchors and others, they live for the black tie war at White House Correspondents Dinner or getting invited to a cocktail party or a book party. I mean, this is the currency of Washington and of New York. It has been for decades, but you start to live, you know, you start to fill that emptiness inside of you with the knowledge that you get the FaceTime with a sub cabinet appointee

at a dinner and you can use that information because Senator Schumer knows your name. These are all very important things, you know, for the social capital. And this is pathetic. I want people to know this is pathetic. And I watch people live their entire lives on Capitol Hill and the White House press corps in television and other for all of these like imperial level events that are put on to just make them feel special and continue on in the machine. And I actually didn't realize how radical it was for people like you or people like me to say, I actually don't care about that at all. I don't care if I ever go to another cocktail party or another black tie dinner or any of these things simply to be in the presence of people who are actually powerful. I would rather just critique them and say what I actually think.

And the irony, of course, is as you have found out, when you say what you actually think, and you are critical of them in an honest way, they take you so much more seriously. They laugh at you when you're one of those people who cares about cocktail parties or any of that. You're one of the most useful cogs in the machine. It's the people they can't control or the people who they call because they're the inconvenient voices. So that was, it's interesting you said that because that was my next question. So the whole process of covering the White House, being in the White House press corps, going to the briefings and the gaggle and all that, going to the parties, are you actually getting information? No, I've never gotten more information than what I do

right now. I actually, during the 12-day war, I literally never got more information from inside of the entire apparatus than I ever did when I was covering the White House. And it was because I was so critical of the Trump administration, of the direction that they were taking. And many of the people who I spoke to for the record, actually were not, almost none who I knew personally, almost all simply saw my commentary and agreed with me and wanted a conduit for information to be able to get out of there. And that was, that's a great lesson by the way, for any white aspiring journalists or others who listen is unique. They will take you much more seriously if you hit them in the face and hitting them in the face makes them kind of shocked because it's so counter to the way that the machine works.

When you work in the machine, they can call your editor, they can call your boss, they can call your advertiser, they can put a significant amount of pressure on you. But when they can't control you, they start to freak out. And that is one of the most useful lessons of my life, actually in terms of coverage and in terms of journalism and the ability to speak out. Speaking out can get you, is unfortunately such a differentiator from where the entire

like traditional system really starts to work. What's the downside? Well, the downside is, you know, freezing out of the entire social movement of professional Washington, is that professional Washington protects its own, it's effectively is a jobs network for each other so that people who are in and out of government always have reliable sources of income. Implicit within that is that, hey, this is what we think about Israel. This is what we think about X, Y taxes.

These are, this is what we think about the carried interest loophole. We don't talk about that. The step up basis. This is what we think about cutting social security. This is an accepted fact. You know, we need to accept this. It's acceptable, you know, to kick elderly people off social security or Medicare or

food stamps. And we just take this information and in exchange for that information, we get a job for the rest of our lives. If I hadn't gone independent, I could have easily relied on working in Washington until the age of 65 within the machine. That would have been actually very doable. Um, and you know, this, this was the risk actually is saying what you actually want to say. That is the riskiest thing you can do within the system. And in exchange,

you will no longer get invited to these dinners or any of these other things. And you have to be okay with that. You have to be okay. Uh, I think with something that you have found as well, but being denounced by people who you knew personally, or, uh, people who you knew personally, or people who you would help in their career. People who you, in many ways you're like, I would personally never do that to you. I can't really believe that you're doing it to me. And the reason you're doing it is,

we all know what it is, is you're being controlled by a broader and a bigger, either financial or foreign lobby interest. I've had this experience. And this is the red line for you? When you call people and you're like, I can't believe you said that about me, calling me a bigot or whatever when you know that I'm not.

And I don't even go on the internet anymore. So I have no idea what people are saying. But several years ago when all this began, I remember calling a couple people and, you know, one person, I said, well, let's have lunch. No. Wow. Yeah.

No, okay. So when you went independent, you've been in DC because you got there for college, you've been there for 10 years, you know a lot of people. Right. Got there at 18, right? Yes, 18 years old. You started when you went independent, 28.

So you know a ton of people, you're a social person, I happen to know. So you are going ton of people, you're a social person, I happen to know. So you are going to tons of events and you have tons of friends and all of a sudden you're going off in a direction, you're not spewing hate or bigotry at all, but you are saying things that other people are not saying. How intensely did people you know try to bring you back

to the status quo? Yeah, almost immediately. There were a lot of warnings about, hey, this is dangerous. Or I mean, they're my you back. Yeah, almost immediately. There were a lot of warnings about, hey, this is dangerous. Or I mean, they're by close. Really? Well, my close friends knew that they supported me, but it was really like the professional friends, people who you're broadly acquainted with are like, what's he up to, you know, what's his deal?

What's what's happening here? And you it's, it's incredible how small, how rapid that shrink can happen in terms of not being invited to these things anymore or you know just being as a social outcast or your phone stops ringing to various different things. Did you feel that right away? I almost I wouldn't say immediately but it did happen like quite rapidly a six month maybe a one-year period. Israel was actually the final straw in particular after is after October 7th that was almost an immediate cut off from the entire professional

network. Why? What did you say? Well, I said that I think that the way that Israel was conducting itself in Gaza was not befitting of a civilized Western nation and that the United States didn't have a compelling interest in what was going on there and that we should just focus on ourselves. I said all the same things about Ukraine and many of them agreed with me then. Apparently, that was the red line for them But what kind of reaction did you get?

Well, I mean, a lot of it is, you know, calling people in my social circle asking why I'm so anti-Semitic now. Why? Actually? Yes. Yeah. No, that actually happened. And a lot of it is also just generally a freeze of communication or discomfort, you know, being in presence. And I think people should hear about this because what I just described, that social capital, when that's everything, this is how those norms

are enforced within the system, even if you've never received any money from any of these people, which of course most of them have. And so you put all of that together and you really watch this like professional nexus and others where you're just almost immediately rejected from like the inner sanctums of the Imperium. But I mean, something that traces back to like wanting to go independent was this knowledge

that outside of the Imperium are all of these other rising, you know, almost revolutionary forces of the Joe Rogan podcast, Dave Smith, Daryl Cooper, Andrew Schultz, Theo Vaughn, all of these individuals. By the way, many of the comedians I listed don't even consider themselves political, but it's because they're not connected to the system that they're able to say and observe truths that nobody in professional comedy or Hollywood-connected comedy or any of these other

would ever dare be able to even give a voice to these types of ideas. And so I chose the latter over the former. And- What did you think of the, so I know all the people you just mentioned. I think so much of every one of those people, I'd add Tim Dillon to that list. Oh, of course, Tim. Wonderful person. But the quality, now I'm being bitchy, I can't control myself. The quality of the people, so you get expelled from, you leave, but you're also shunned by

your former world, you enter this new world that includes all the people you just listed. How would you compare the quality of the people? It's night and day difference and if we disagree they're just don't care. There's no you know professional freeze out. There's no you know there's not as many hard feelings. There's a discussion. You could look right in Dave Smith's face and say the things you just said that you believe so deeply I think are stupid. And he'd still go to dinner with you. Of course he would.

I disagree with Dave on a lot. Mostly on economics. I don't think he cares at all. We talk all the time. Yeah. And that's, that's a really important point, right? Oh, exactly. The verboten issues and the enforcement of all of that is part of why a lot of these

people have found this tremendous amount of success that they have. And that's, that is what still gives me some hope about where we are. I totally agree that there, you know, I believe in God and I do think that there's like an upside, you know, you go through suffering, but there's always like a redemptive quality to it. And in this specific case, like you find the new people, you know, you do lose friends. Have you lost friends? Yes, unfortunately, yes. Me too. And I still am sad about it.

But boy, the people you meet are like the most honest, interesting, decent. Like the quality, I'm sorry to reduce it to this, but the quality of the marriages among the people who are telling the truth versus the quality of the people who are paid to lie or who are too afraid to tell the truth. Boy, they have just happier people. Yes. Better people. Of course. Well, I mean what kind of person

who has small children at home would want to leave them for four out of five nights a week to attend book party events in Black Doctor's Beo. That's exactly right. And to drink five or six nights a week. I mean, this is literally the life that a lot of these people live. And if you're a cog in a machine and you're like I mean, this is literally the life that a lot of these people live. And if you're a cog in a machine and you're like having Mark Levin on night after night, even though everyone knows it's like absurd, how can your wife respect you? I don't know, yeah. Or getting up at 3.30 a.m. in the morning, I'm sure I used to in the morning show gig,

and having to read from the prepared packet for yourself. Good luck, honey. I hope the kids are okay in the morning. And then reducing your life to all of that for what purpose? No, it's totally and that you know, and these are mechanical but they're macro and important I to nicely put yeah So I want to ask you about the politics of all this because I feel like so it is what's the date? Monday July 7 things are moving so fast That you know, who knows where we'll be when this air, which I hope is soon. But as of this morning, Elon Musk is out there using the cover-up that Pam Bondi is so clearly

engaged in, disgraceful cover-up. And I like Pam Bondi personally, but I'm ashamed as an American to see what they're doing. He's using that to say, hey, we need a new political party. Like everyone's involved in the Epstein coverup, which is true. We need an America party and I'm running it. Where does this, is he serious?

Where does this go? I filed it with the FEC. I would give some caution to Elon. Tucker, you and I have seen a lot of rich people come and go in Washington. Yes. The consultants see you coming from a mile away. Mr. Fiscally conservative, socially liberal. I'm just going to put that out there. The bipartisan policy center and all these other people, they've rolled up that entire market. They have plenty to sell you. Powerpoints about ranked choice voting and a few other things and all that.

So for all of them, I wish you the best of luck because you're all about to get filthy rich off of you. Okay, can you just explain a little bit, so I'm from DC so I know what you're talking about, but for people who aren't, what exactly are you saying? Well, I'm saying that there is a long fetishized idea of an American third party, which is fiscally conservative, which is socially liberal, which is moderate on immigration,

and which is very comfortable with oligarchy and that those forces are extremely well funded and they have a lot of research which could back up whatever your proclivities are and they will happily sell it to you for 10 times market price and sit with presentations to convince you that this is a great idea. And actually, I mean, the irony is if Elon's politics were more reversed in this sense, I actually think it would be onto something. So my belief is that both of the parties actually do have not answers directly, but directionally to the fundamental problems of our age. Immigration, and I think the Republican party obviously is solid or has come a long way

on the issue of at least the base, let's say that. The voters. Yeah. The voters on the issue of immigration from the gang of eight party rebellion to where we are today. And immigration, I still believe is one of the most central important issues of our time. But let's put the other side and we can take this one big, beautiful bill as an example. We increased the defense budget by 150 billion. Now I will not get into the actual specific Medicaid cuts, but I think everything in Washington is about priority. So, we extended the tax cuts from the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017. The vast majority of that benefit largely accrues to people who are already rich. Most of that in particular accrues either to the high W-2 income earner.

I saw somebody point out correctly that most of those people are Democrats. So it's a little bit ironic, if you're just thinking purely in terms of politics. We didn't have any interest in closing the carried interest loophole. We didn't have any interest in looking at the step-up basis and looking at financialization and type. There's so many areas, hundreds of billions of dollars,

ripe for the taking without having to touch a single benefit to an American citizen. And instead we started and instead rewrote the way that Medicaid and food stamp programs are going to work, which could potentially impact tens of millions of Americans. Now again, I think there's legitimate criticisms around work requirements and welfare and all of that. I don't necessarily criticize that as opposed to this fetishization that I saw from GOP congressmen who were like,

yeah, it's good that people are going to lose their healthcare. And I said, look, whether these people are working or not, it's not good that anybody loses healthcare. And so that's what I mean about where if Elon's politics were flipped, I think the Democrats at least rhetorically do have correct focus on issues like healthcare and around, or at the very least, the way that our economy is structured. Now they may not mean it, and I don't think they mean it in practice,

but at least rhetorically. So if you were to marry those three issues about immigration restriction, about focus on quality of life, cost of living, healthcare, and also just broadly about restructuring our economy for productive purposes that distributes not through socialism, but through a well-ordered and a well-regulated capitalism that distributes the benefit across all sectors of our society.

Now, that's an America party I could get on board with. But there's no funding for that, right? So there's no funding for that. No, if someone got up and said, I'd like an economy where you don't have to hire an illegal alien to raise your kids, your wife can stay home and raise your kids if she wants to. And most women do want to for the period when they're little. I mean, most women want that and every survey shows that.

So if you were to say that, in other words, if you were to respond to the desire of the majority, you'd probably be shot to death. You can't say that. Like it's better to raise your kids than to work in a bank. Oh, right wing extremism. Let's just seal the borders till we figure out who's here and restore meaning to citizenship. What racist! Maybe we should stop giving billions in aid to the, you know, stop trying to run the world when we're not good at

it at all and just preserve our fundamental national interests. Isolationist, Nazi, anti-Semite. It's like... Or in socialist when we talk about health care. Yeah, socialist. Yeah, isolationist, Nazi, anti-Semite, it's like. Or in socialist when we talk about healthcare. Yeah, socialist. Or any of those other issues. Yeah, I mean, I do feel like there's a huge opportunity for someone who would talk like that. That's a real America party.

I mean, at its best, the 2016 Donald Trump campaign was what I just talked about. I did not recognize it at the time. I was telling you yesterday, that election night broke every political conception and idea I had. Which is the best thing that ever happened to me because it allowed me to free my mind to read

all of these other people who I had never considered, who I was told were illegitimate, within professional Washington. And what it came to the conclusion is that professional Washington is illegitimate and has no idea what it allegedly its own voters want. Why did so few people do, I had the same experience and but um, which it was hard for me because I've been there for so long, but it was so liberating and I'm grateful for it.

I'm grateful to Trump for that. But why did so few people do that? Because asking those questions, yes, you know, that is not asking those questions and coming to what I think are the right conclusions about our economy and about this restructuring of our entire political base, I mean, the way that voting patterns over the last decade of change is unbelievable. And when you actually answer a lot of those questions, you come to them that are very inconvenient for the empire. The empire currently runs on cheap labor, which is immigration related.

It runs on war abroad, you know, military industrial complex, if you want to call it. But all of these foreign entanglements and pushing billions of dollars, you know, to policing the ends of the earth, something that the architects of the American Empire, General Eisenhower and General Marshall, General Eisenhower in particular said it would be a failure if American legions acted as Roman that were deployed to the vast ends of the earth, policing it. His vision for the American empire was to set up well-ordered states in Europe and to them let them handle it from that point forward. General Marshall and others, I mean, yes, they had the Marshall Plan, but the idea was

about creating self-sufficiency that could allow America that could return to where things were broadly in more than 1940s environment. But more what I'm saying is that if you look at all of that and you start to speak against it, and these are what the voters want, you start to come up against the most powerful interests in the world. Healthcare is 20% of our GDP. We have the worst health outcomes in the developed world. That's insane.

Why? It's not because our healthcare system is not working all that well. It comes down to immigration. We talked about cheap labor with war. That's the foreign governments. It's the ideology of the Imperium, which is all about basically transnational loyalty as opposed to loyalty to your own citizenship and really to your own country. And then broadly about oligarchy.

And because when we look at the way, how do you become rich in America today? A few years ago, I went to the Forbes billionaire list and I just restricted the list to the number of new billionaires that were added to that list. The vast majority of those new billionaires in America were people who worked in hedge funds and in finance. And this is why in some ways the left is wrong.

They often criticize, they'll often criticize like, let's take Elon as an example, and Elon is a complicated figure, but you know, look, I have a Tesla, I encourage everybody to get in one at least once, because it's like getting an iPhone 4 for the first time. It will change your entire conception of what a car is. Now, if people were getting rich

creating an American car company, I would be ecstatic, but that's not what they're getting rich from. They're getting rich from extractive, addictive capitalism. Let's say in finance, right? Basically creating unproductive trading systems, which are only enriching themselves, and then rigging our tax code so they pay lower taxes than small business owners, maybe like you or I, or the average person on the street who gets taxed at a higher rate for his labor. Let's take other examples like all the companies, so-called great companies coming necessarily out of Silicon Valley. The vast majority of that money, as Peter Thiel famously said, we're promised flying

cars all we got are 140 characters. There is something deeply true about that, about the experience of the technology industry has largely been about extractive capitalism and addiction on our phones and about industries that rely on that as opposed to products that make our lives better and make dead laws. Boy, they lecture you about that. I have friends in the tech business who I really like, who I consider so smart and interesting, but I guess we all get preachy about what we're doing with

our lives. I mean, I get preachy about, journalists, we're here to tell the truth. So I'm trying not to be too judgmental. On the other hand, I don't see technology over the past 80 years at, oh, what about antibiotics and the polio vaccine? Okay. Great. But in general, net-net, as we say in the the dish bag industry, I don't see it as a net

plus at all. I don't see it as enslavement and a total disaster. But you're not, but they're like, what? Technology is making our lives better. Really? Tell me how. Yeah. I mean, let's take, I know you want to talk about sports gambling.

It's the perfect example, right? So it's something that's been enabled by the phone and has led, in my opinion, to what is the next opioid epidemic that we will see in the next 10 years. So in 2018, literally just 2018, the Supreme Court ruled a decision that restricted sports gambling to the state of Nevada. New Jersey immediately, Chris Christie, by the way, is the person who brought this lawsuit, which legalizes sports gambling. Chris is on the side of sports gambling. Of course, he is the person who brought this lawsuit, which legalizes sports gambling. Eventually... Christie's on the side of sports gambling. Of course, he was the person who brought the suit. Well, what happens from that point forward?

He is the lowest. Ever. Well, you and I are sitting here today in a country where 40 states plus the District of Columbia, sports gambling is legal. You have these sports gambling companies, FanDuel and DraftKings, which basically have legal monopolies from the states, from the gaming commissions of these states where they are allowed to operate and it's not a free market because of the licensure and the way that it works. Yes, not everybody can just become a gambler. I want to talk about this issue,

because I'm totally ignorant of this, but I keep hearing from young people who I'm related to or who work for me about people getting in trouble with sports gambling. Yes, and so how did this all happen? So in the span of what? It's been seven years since that happened. 40 states are now legal.

I just looked it up this morning. Several hundred billion dollars were gambled by Americans in 2024. Hundred billion? Hundred billion dollars were gambled in 2024. The gambling revenue was some $14 billion, just the revenue they were able to extract. That is larger than the motion picture industry, the box office industry in the United States of America.

The vast majority of that revenue, a study that came out shows comes from only 3% of gamblers, 3%. And the reason why is that gambling addicts make up almost 50% of the revenue, 3% make up 50% because they literally cannot put it down. And what makes the story even crazier is that FanDuel DraftKings have the legal right in the way that they run their business, where Tucker, if you and I were actually good at sports gambling, they would effectively ban us from the platform. They would no longer allow us to place bets larger than, let's say, $1.20.

And the reason why is their algorithms are detectable for anybody who is actually gambling smart. And so they immediately will ban you from being able to bet any sizeable portion of money. Meanwhile, for those gambling addicts, those 3%, they have an entire VIP host-directed service where DraftKings and FanDuel shower these people in free gifts. They call them every single day. They basically operate on the phone to make sure that there's no track record because they're not supposed to do this.

They're not supposed to enable gambling addicts according to the law. And what they do is they encourage them with free promotions or whatever to keep gambling their entire life savings. More recently, there was a man, I talked about it in my monologue on the subject, who gambled away over a million, I think $1.4 million. He never made more than $200,000. His wife is suing DraftKings because he gambled away his children's life savings, college accounts, his Christmas gifts, everything.

Everything that he owned. He never gambled before 2020 and he gambled away everything he owned by 2024. DraftKings used to call him every single day. They used to say, where, you know, we got to, what else you got? They violated their own policies according to the lawsuit. According to their lawsuit, the lawsuit brought by the wife, the income, if they tried to verify it, they would have seen that he was using all of these different assets, which are, you know, obviously not from a W to income, which is apparently violated of their policy. They would have seen, as they admit in many cases, he was a gambling addict and they didn't care. They allowed him to basically gamble away his life savings and not only enabled it, but encouraged it.

So, you know what I'm thinking as you're telling me this amazing story? What I'm really afraid to basically gamble away his life savings, and not only enabled it, but encouraged it. So- You know what I'm thinking is you're telling me this amazing story? What I'm really afraid of is Sharia law. They hate us for our freedoms, Sager. They hate us for our freedoms. Sharia's the threat! Maybe they had something going on gambling, and,

but my point- This is so dark. This is on your phone. This is on my phone, this is on everybody's phone, it's on almost every young man's phone in America. It's part of the social fabric right now of male culture in the United States and all of it. And I didn't even get to the craziest part, which is that the bets that they're making

are these things called single game parlay bets, which are basically contingent, multi-contingent bets about four or five different things happening because the odds payout is much higher. You will lose with such regularity. Like in the state of Illinois, 60% of all bets were that type of bet. Can you give me an example? My ignorance is astounding on this subject. I'm not very well versed in sports, but let's say we're watching a football game.

We would say that this person is going to rush more than 200 yards. The quarterback will score two touchdowns and at the end of the second half, the Packers will be up by seven. So you would bet that. And so your payout on a $5 bet could be $1,000. And that's why it's very attractive. But what people don't understand is that it's priced that way, that $5 for $1,000, because you're almost certainly not going to hit it.

And that's the vast, vast majority of the bets that Americans are making today because it's fun. But my point around the fun is that the gambling addicts are the only people who enable your fun. And if you're actually any good at this, you'll get banned. It's a totally unfair marketplace. Well, that's totally... Vegas is the same way, by the way. Vegas is the same way of how they back off people who are good at card counting. That's where the custom, what was legacy granted into the sports gambling houses comes from. Regulators don't care about any of this and legislators. Why? Because they're getting filthy rich revenues off of this from the state. But my contention

is if you look at the social cost of every single state where sports gambling has been legalized, we've seen an increase in bankruptcy, particularly young men. We've seen a rise in domestic violence, intimate partner violence, largely when bets lose. So a man's bet will lose and he'll take it out on his wife or the kids that are in the house. It's horrible. We've seen actually statistically significant rise, almost directly as a result of sports gambling. We are watching the social costs of our brother, our cousin or whatever go bankrupt or lose hundreds of dollars, get normalized into this environment of taking insane risks, which you don't even really understand.

It's getting enmeshed. If you go to any bar in America during a sports game, you'll find somebody there with their phone and if you're talking to them, they've got money on every play of the game. They'll be like, oh, I had $20 that he would, you know, throw a touchdown in the very first quarter. Soon they're rolling out products, which make it so that you can bet like every single play of the game. And they're doing it live so you can do it there

all on your phone. I mean, that's basically, to me, that's an emblem of where we have become, what we have become as a country. We use a smartphone as an addictive platform to enable one of the worst vices that we've always recognized in American history. And my solution is simple is, okay, it's not fair that Nevada had sports gambling. Let's just make it in person. We have to introduce friction into the system. We do that for alcohol. We do that for cigarettes. By the way, cigarette companies are not allowed to sponsor and spend billions of dollars in advertising at the Super Bowl and pair up with professional sports betting leagues.

I've spoken with professional athletes, NFL athletes, who told me they have faced harassment from people who lost bets because of them. They'll be like, hey, the kicker, you idiot, you didn't make that and I had $1,000 on something. It's ruining the game. The gambling companies and the leagues are coming together. Tens of millions of Americans are borderline addicted right now. Hundreds of millions are actually making bets. And all of this is just like a sleeping social revolution in the country where parlay betting and the lingo that used to be known to the

most degenerate guy who lives in Vegas is is now common parlance, you know, in the American culture. And people call you nanny state or any of that. I just said I don't even oppose necessarily the ability to sports gamble. I just think we should treat it like any other vice and make it so that you have to gamble in person. Why not just say it's disgusting? I think it is disgusting. And it's predatory. And by the way, they're preying, as the crypto people do, sorry, on the frustration and sadness of young men who know they're never going to be able to afford a wife kids in a house Exactly, and that's they sell you the dream all the app all the advertisements are you can get rich with your knowledge

And as I just said if you actually do get rich they'll just ban you or if you have the potential to Business wasn't always this sleazy in the United States. There were self-restraints I mean, I've never been that into business or never participated in business actually in my whole life. But so what do I know? But I have been here a while and I remember people had, like there was a feeling like, well, that's just wrong. We're not gonna do that.

Taking advantage of people was bad. Especially poor people. Like payday loan was a really sleazy business. Charging 30% interest on a credit card. I mean, your neighbors would judge you. Yeah, and they should. But that's the problem with the collapse of social trust is that there's not a lot of policing.

Totally amoral predators took control of our society at every level. That's exactly right. And now the government is in league with them. It'll be legal in almost all 50 states, probably by the end of the decade. And all of this will lead to mass bankruptcy. Like I said, all the social attendant costs of this. But I think more importantly, it shows when you have that collapse of social enforcement within your society, you can just see how rapid,

I'm talking about a seven year period. This is not long ago that this was even not a thing, that we went to bigger than the motion picture industry and you and I are talking before football season all forecasts say that DraftKings and FanDuel will make more money this year than they have ever made before and 2024 to 2023 was already a 23% rise. Why are people paying their gambling debts? Yeah. Why are people paying their credit card bills? I don't understand. I mean, it's like so one-sided. It's like you're a college student

and you get credit card offers, free credit cards, and you get lured into something like this. You get destroyed by it, but you still have to pay your debts. So it's all upside for them. And then people wag their finger in your face. So like, oh, you a communist? Am I a communist? No, no, I'm not.

If you say like, why would you pay your debts? Why would you ever pay off? It is, and they're the ones who should be ashamed. Not just ashamed, our legislators should do something about it. I really do wanna start a political party, don't pay your credit card bill. Do not pay your gambling debts, I really do.

It'd be a general strike against, or student loan, honestly. But whatever, but what they do, and it's the same people, they take the frustration, the people who are benefiting from draft kings and Citibank, they take the frustration that people feel, the stupid new mayor of New York, and they move it into like race hate. They basically take that momentum and they shift it into a safe direction Like just hate each other on the basis of the way you look. Yes, of course and that's very safe for their For their backers, but I'm just waiting for the guy who's like no

No, the real criminals are the ones who are loaning you money at 30% interest or getting you to go bankrupt on a sports gambling app Like those are the villains. Why don't we go after them? I agree. I've been waiting. I run for president on the don't pay your credit card bill and I will send you money. Well, I've been waiting for somebody. I talked with a guy who's an expert on the history of political parties and he said,

you know, one of the most popular issues that I think that would resonate is banning people, employers who schedule closing shift and opening shift. It's called clo-opening, right? Like people who have to work until midnight and wake up at 6 a.m. A lot of these are the most precarious people in our economy who are basically screwed around with by their employers getting paid minimum wage and feel the deep frustration of no power in their lives from financial institutions to their employers. He's like, I genuinely think just an issue like that would resonate so deeply. And then I started thinking, I go, why does, is that not even a thing? And I go, oh, well,

it's because most people in Washington don't even know about the term that I just use. Of course. And it's about the everyday life of somebody who is worried about being able to buy a house. I mean, let's even put buying a house out of that. That's the American dream. I'm talking about, let's just making rent. I'm talking about, you know, being able to fill up your car. I mean, a large percentage of this country

is a blown tire away from bankruptcy. A literal blown tire away from complete bankruptcy, economic precarity to a level, which is shameful, you know, whenever we have the richest country in human which is shameful, you know, whenever we have the, you know, richest country in human history. And, you know, you talked about Zoran and what I really appreciated from him is, look, we don't like Zoran. I'm not pro-Zoran. I get it. But when he says, hey, I'm just worried about the rent and I don't care about Israel because I'm gonna stay here in New York. I loved

it. How? I loved it too. That's what all we need. That's what all people really want. I remember when Trump first term withdrew from Paris and he said, I was elected to be the president of Pittsburgh, not Paris. And I was like, wow. So that's the problem. One of the most important thing, the problem of the DOJ decision yesterday to cover up the crimes of Epstein, which they are doing, is that it leaves people at the very end of

their electoral options. It's like, I voted for this guy, and I'll speak for myself, I voted for this guy precisely because I'm really distressed. I want justice. I want honesty. I think secrecy abets evil. I want someone to focus on my country, like all the basic things. And I think Trump wants all those things too.

But if you, when you allow something like this to happen, people are like, you know what? The system itself is beyond reform. There's no reasonable step I can take to improve this country or my own life. I have to do something crazy. Like you're creating true radicalism when you do stuff like this,

because what's the option? Well, that's why in a way I want to hold a lot of these leaders to a higher standard is because if you're elected on that message and you betray that message, in my opinion, you're more culpable than let's say the idiots like George W. Bush and others who really believed it, right? They believed they destroyed our country. I agree.

But at the very least, they didn't lie to us as much about wanting to address the very problems that they created. But when you have people like Obama, Biden, and Trump who are elected right now on the backs of fixing the most catastrophic presidency probably in American history, George W. Bush, but then to return to many or in many cases, even go further and not actually address those. I think you're very culpable in that. And you reap what you sow. I mean, you said you're not a radical.

I'm similar in disposition. I don't want to see mass violence or any of these other... Well, you're a married father. And you're like, I am too. I'm totally vested in the future of the country. Exactly. I don't want that to happen. No!

But as an analyst or as somebody familiar with history, somebody who has an audience and can pick up on social trends, people are mad as hell right now. They are angry. Too mad. Angry. Too mad. No, I agree. That Epstein thing, it's not even about Epstein.

I can live, I think I know what the Epstein thing was. Everybody knows what it was. I think you know what the Epstein thing was. Everybody knows what it was. I think you porn is the same thing. Yes. They're collecting information to blackmail people on you porn. Do you think a foreign government doesn't have access to the back end of you porn?

I think they do. And so I get it. I understand, you know, everyone knows what's up, but to insult the population by saying, no, you're a conspiracy theorist. It's like, I think you're really playing with fire when you do that. Especially when you said the conspiracy

and then now revert to the line. It's too much. It's too much. That is too much. Do you know, I mean, can you call Pam Bondi and say, I think Pam Bondi is under a ton of pressure. Again, I've always liked Pam Bondi. I know her.

I think she's under of pressure. Again, I've always liked Pampandi. I know her. I think she's under enormous pressure. I don't know how good she is under pressure. Trying to be nice. But I don't think that she's like a sinister person who is doing the work of Leon Black and Ehud Barak on purpose really. But I wonder if they know this is a real thing here. They have to know. And the reason thing here. They have to know. And the reason why I think they have to know is that the breadcrumbs that got us to this moment have already been sprinkled. Cash Patel testified and said it was suicide.

Went on the Joe Rogan podcast and said, if I had that information, don't you think I would tell you? He killed himself. I mean, that was basically this was an enshrinement of many of the things that they already put out there. And the criticism and really the outrage over each of those individual comments, let's say the so-called Epstein files released with many of the influencers, there was outrage at every step. So they're not stupid. But how can you say that thousands of children were raped,

but I'm not going to find out who raped them? How can you say that? I agree. I agree completely. They said that. By the way, when Pam Bondi went on television and said, I have a videotape of kids getting abused, I didn't. I follow this case closely and I know a lot of the people involved, as I've told you. I had no idea. I didn't know that. Really? Thousands of children got raped? Who raped them? Where are the rapists? Like, why aren't they in jail? This is the Department of Justice. Like, why aren't they in jail? This is the Department of Justice. That is so crazy.

This is honestly one of the craziest things I've ever seen in my entire life. And I just think it's very dangerous to play around with this stuff. Like, very dangerous. I don't want a revolution, but if you wanted a revolution, this is how you would act. Yes, yeah, it is.

Because, I mean, I gave Versailles an example. When you pick the court over and over again and the people start to wake up to that, bad things can happen. And this is something that I find really disgusting about American elites is that for a long time, the American Republic and the elite system has been one that can actually cycle at least some of the wants and the needs of the American voter to basically placate it and keep it from going down the path of fascism and or socialism. But when you continue to just double down on the Imperium and on what fuels the empire itself, and you would keep ignoring all of these things,

I mean, I do think this bill is an important part of that. Like, we're increasing defense spending. The empire is not even good at what's supposed to be doing. It's causing chaos abroad. The military-industrial complex is not even good at what's supposed to be doing. It's causing chaos abroad. The military industrial complex is not even good at creating weapons or ammunition. The global financial system has been revealed as a complete ruse. We sanctioned Russia to death. Remember, we said that they will never rise. Their economy grew and they were able to increase ammunition.

I tried to tell that story and I went to the Soviet or Soviet Russian grocery store, not because I want to live in Russia, though it's really nice, but to point out that everything you said was going to happen didn't happen. Yeah, they're doing fine. And what's the lesson in that? Is that the ability to produce the goods that you need, the ability to produce the energy, and to at least have a few allies who also reject the Western global financial system

is all you need now to stand against the American Empire I think that was actually one of the most important things that has ever happened because we threw it all at Russia over Insignificant conflict involving the United States and what has China been doing now for the last five years just studying they've since Ukraine They have been studying this and we did it because the small group of foreign policy and government officials They have been studying this and moving off of it. And we did it because a small group of foreign policy and government officials deeply care about Ukraine. Exactly. They really care about Ukraine.

Okay, that's great. I deeply care about Sweden. You may be deeply care about India. Yeah. But you're not driving our foreign policy. They care about Ukraine for whatever reason. But they're imposing that on a country with 350 million people. Like, are you joking?

You can't do that. It humiliated us really in the eyes of most of our adversaries. Oh, I'm aware. Because the day that Russia can increase its GDP and can increase its ammunition more than all of NATO, while subject to the most devastating sanctions, supposedly in the history of the United States,

that shows that it's all fake. And then that's Russia. Oh, I agree. Which is a much smaller and less much of a threat of the United States, that shows that it's all fake. And then that's Russia, which is a much smaller and less much of a threat to the United States, let's say than any other country in the world. And all those other countries are studying this with a fine tooth comb to sanction proof themselves. So when the time comes that we're really affected, and this affects me and you and my kid or your kids, that we're going to have a real problem. I couldn't agree more. And to spend a trillion dollars on something that's not working.

I mean, I guess of all the money you could spend spending on the military, decent people in the military, some really good people in the military. Well, if it actually went to them, that'd be fine, but it's not, as you and I know. I read the other day this analysis from someone I know who's really smart, and the question was, will the United States use nuclear bunker busters in Iran? Okay, so that would, for many reasons, be, you know, the first time nuclear weapons have been used in 80 years, kind of a big deal. So I don't think anyone wants that particular Rubicon to be crossed.

So I was like, wow, I wonder if that's going to happen. So I call around. And the answer I got, which I think is true, we don't have any nuclear bunker busters. And because we're not good at building anything, we're not going to have them for quite some time. Now, I haven't verified that, but I got that. I mean, I think that's true. That's insane.

Now, I don't want to use nuclear bunker busters at all. And apparently, it was George W. Bush who said we shouldn't. So there's a rare win for the Bush team. Thank you, George W. Bush who said we shouldn't. So there's a rare win for the Bush team. Thank you, George W. Bush. But if that's true, you spend a trillion dollars and you don't even have a nuclear bunker buster? I mean, that's the least of our problems. We don't have basic ammunition.

No, I'm aware. It's like the level of dysfunction is so overwhelming that, and that's the military, which you gotta assume is more functional than say the Department of Transportation or Energy or Commerce or Interior. It's like gotta be one of the most functional departments, at least they actually pass a marksmanship test occasionally.

Then things are really in disarray and we actually need reform. Yes, like immediate reform because I mean, I just think, I don't know, I've almost come to the conclusion, it's like we're either gonna have to hit a financial crisis or a war. That's really the only time anything changes. So what, where do things go politically?

A lot of that depends on Donald Trump and how he handles his meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu and the next coming years because, and this is why I was so concerned about Iran and I think you were too, and also why the people crowing victory, in my opinion, will look stupid. And I listened to your entire interview with the president of Iran, it's a very important interview, at the very least because whether he means it or not, he's trying to telegraph for peace. Of course. And not only trying to telegraph for peace, naming Israel as the prime provocateur, wanting

better relations here with the United States of America, but also concerned about the fact that at least according to our president, diplomacy was at least used in some way, either afterwards taking credit for, or at least the perspective was given. It was used as a ruse, which will undermine our ability to future negotiate. Let's say you are Iran, which in my opinion, what I took away from this is despite all of their genocidal terrorists who want to kill us all, they acted highly rationally.

They only struck Israel. They fired 14 bases, 14 missiles at the US base. They gave us preemptive notice. They immediately then called it off, willing to sign a ceasefire. He seemed at the very least his ability to telegraph rationality in his interview with you. What I take away from that then is rationally, if you are the country of Iran and you look at the history now and the context in which this has now happened, I don't see how 30

years from now, we either don't have an actual nuclear armed Iran or regime change. Because every single time, let's even look at Israel's operations. In 1981, I'm sure you remember, Israel took out Iraq's nuclear program, or at least severely damaged it. A reactor, yes. A reactor. Now that was sold as a one-time operation. By the way, do you remember that the Reagan administration announced it? And we actually paused shipments, I believe, of F-14s to the country. Why? Because we saw it as an outrageous move, which was destabilizing relations. Ronald Reagan, everybody, not some known anti-Semite, but of course we're not allowed to know our history. The point though is that that preemptive strike in 1981, did it stop the United States from invading Iraq in 2003 for an operation

and regime change sold on the lie of WMD. The point is, is that it actually hardened Saddam's resolve to at least create the impression of having nuclear weapons. And for a time, actually amassing other so-called weapons of mass destruction, and hardened the, you know, want of Syria in 2007 when they did something similar. If you look at the history here now of the so-called preemptive strike from Israel, known as the Begin Doctrine around nuclear weapons in the so-called preemptive strike from Israel, known as the Bagan Doctrine around nuclear weapons in the Middle East, every time there's a strike, eventually it leads to regime change.

So Iraq, regime change. Syria, regime change. With Libya, of course, they had all kinds of stuff going on with the Libyan program. Gaddafi did the smart thing at what he thought at the time, gave up his nuclear weapons. And what happened to him? He was literally sodomized on camera. It was, what, eight years later by the United States of America. So the history of that in the region should really, I mean, you have to be very stupid

not to look at every single one of those instances and say, yeah, I don't know about whether dealing with the United States and or Israel here in this context is one that I can trust. In fact, I should probably just go get a nuclear weapon. Let's take the only a member of the axis of evil today that has never been bombed by the United States of America, North Korea. I saw a book about Kim Jong-il behind you, ill behind you. And I've recently had this theory. I'm like, is Kim Jong-il one of the most vindicated man in history?

He was seen as an insane person. Remember the movies and his liquor and license? Very well, yeah. His fundamental insight in 2002 was, no, we don't trust these people. We have to sprint to a nuke. We're getting the H-bomb. We're testing underground. We will establish a credible nuclear deterrent. He dies and his son immediately pours all state resources into creating an ICBM and a credible nuclear deterrent, he dies, and his son immediately pours all state resources into creating an ICBM and a credible nuclear threat to the United States of America capable of hitting the United States homeland. And he, in my opinion, my belief is Kim Jong-un will die of natural causes in his own bed because of that decision.

That is the only way to assure that the United States will not mess with you. And now actually what Israel has created is a situation where the highly rational, you know, the highly rational decision after your entire military infrastructure has been, you know, infiltrated by Mossad, you've walked with impunity, you've seen diplomacy used as a ruse. I don't see how we can't either go down the regime change path again and or we have a nuclear Iran Now on top of this, of course is Israeli action Prime Minister Netanyahu according to the Jerusalem Post Which is you know an Israeli media outlet they write the Prime Minister Netanyahu

One of the chief things he wants to secure from President Trump is the ability to conduct preemptive strikes Anytime he wants on the Iranian nuclear program, which of course we were told was destroyed. If it was destroyed, I'm not sure why we need more preemptive strikes, but he wants a rolling green light for the future to be able to go in and take any things out at the time, which of course would only harden the strategic resolve of that country. It can't be done alone. Of course not, which they proved. They actually proved that to us when they said, we need you to come in and finish the job. And to protect our homeland from ballistic missiles running down on our cities. So any Israeli, and by the way, I come at this, I feel like you have to

say it because you don't want to be called a bigot again, but like just in general, I approve of and certainly understand every country's obligation to act on its own interest, including defensively. So I'm not even contesting Israel's right to be worried about Iran. They probably should be. However, every strike by Israel on Iran, by definition, requires the involvement of the US military. Correct.

So we're getting signed up for an endless war with Iran. And at that point, it's like, no, this is my country. No. But like, I'm getting mad. This is what I was saying about radicalism. This is the kind of thing that could make you radical. Right? Yes. And it's bad for us. It's also bad for them. I mean, let's take the April operation. A lot of people forget this. Why did Iran in April of 2024 launch all those ballistic missiles at Israel? It's because Israel bombed an Iranian embassy in the middle of Syria. Now, according to them, it was an IRGC command center. Maybe. I would say there are CIA officers present in every U.S. embassy in the world. So I don't particularly want to open up that bag of worms. I would say there are CIA officers present in every US embassy in the world. So I don't particularly want to open up that bag of worms. I think there's spies in literally every

diplomatic mission, including in Washington, which probably cross paths with many of those. I don't think those are legitimate targets, nor should they be. We shouldn't open that up. Well, it was because of that action that they knew would invite an Iranian response that Iran then launched those ballistic missiles against Israel. But who shot down all those missiles? Are you allowed to bomb people's embassies? Yes, that's well, according to them, as long as you designated a terrorist, you know, base by your own definition, I don't even know if the United States ever actually technically

signed off on that analysis, you're able to do that. There have to be some limits mutually agreed upon limits to behavior. You can't just shoot someone for pissing you off. Right. Okay. You can't shoot up churches, including the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, and you can't bomb embassies or else your embassies in your churches or your synagogues or your mosques or whatever, they're all fair game. And like you want to live in that world. Right. It would be rightfully denounced as terrorism if that were done. There's got to be some limit. What's the limit and and even more big than that? What I said at the time was one of the reasons I didn't want us to defend Israel is I know That if they didn't think that the US would come in and defend them

Then they never would have done it in the first place is that it would have restricted their freedom of action and the freedom of action of the Iranians and the most likely outcome between that was probably some sort of Diplomatic solution if they were actually forced to deal with this problem on their own terms without the Big Brother United States, or at the very least the Big Brother United States, equally distributed to both parties in regards to trying to bring peace and balance to the region. But it's our unending and unquestioning support which enables Israeli belligerent action in the region, which then invites blowback both on them, but also on us. Okay? I lived during the 12-day war with the United States government warning me about terrorist

attacks in my homeland. That is like 2005 red terror levels. Remember flying back then? Very well. And that is a psychological toll on our population, which was literally being done for a foreign country and worrying about every US citizen. There are millions of United States citizens who live abroad, who were told that they had to be careful and going about their daily business in whatever country they happen to be in. Now, let's say that's in response to 9-11. Okay, we can justify that in terms of what the United States is doing after being attacked on our homeland. But for another, as you said, it's too much. It can lead to radicalization. I'm trying to resist that pull. And what I'm trying to do here on my show as well is to talk all about this in a rational way. That's why I talk about Switzerland and Chile, just to put it in context, who this country is and what we

allegedly get out of it. Let's remove all of the veneer and the smears and everything else, and let's just talk in our own terms. And I have found that to be the enemy of the Ukraine discourse, of Israel discourse, of so much of the way that we orient ourselves. I mean, you know, I always think about the Munich Security Conference. What? Why? Why are we obsessed with the Munich Security Conference? Asia is 50% of GDP in 2030. We should be going to the Singapore Security Conference. And that's the only one that actually should matter. But why do they all go to Munich?

Oh, because they like Munich. They like Europe. They like going on vacation. A lot of them have studied there. They have this cultural affinity. I get it. I'm not saying that shouldn't matter at all. But, you know, our forward-looking leaders,

even back in the 1930s and 40s, always had a very clear-eyed view of the ability to balance what was actually in U.S. strategic interests. And I think we really lost that from the 1990s unipolar moment onwards. And I'm watching it happen again. So, you know, you asked me where this thing goes. It's all basically, it's on Trump

and his relationship with Bibi. I actually think he's gambling his entire presidency on all of that right now. Yeah, and I have no idea what's gonna happen. I believe they're meeting as we're speaking. I know them both, but I don't know. But I've gotta say, of all the kind of filthy disasters in the world, the one that I would want to stay away from

with the most enthusiasm is Gaza. So how is it that it's America's responsibility to unfuck Gaza? Yes, and that was the plan from day one. And what's happened in Gaza is not defensible. It's too much. I mean, these, Harret said 17,000 children have been killed in in Gaza 17,000. I had to read it twice. They said that so, you know, I think I'm just citing them There are lots of other estimates, but we'll just go with you. Let's go with the Israeli press

We're often more critical than ours, right? Exactly. Well, they're way more critical than ours, but um, let's just go with that like I Think that that's immoral as a Christian. I'm very offended. There were, by the way, Christians among those killed there. They did nothing wrong. I'm offended by that. But even if I supported that, which I don't, I would say, I don't think I want to have anything to do with that. I don't want to be tied to that.

Why should I take responsibility for your crime? President Biden sent his humanitarian aid float show. Remember that cost probably at least a quarter billion dollars that entire deployment almost did nothing. Currently, American contractors, I'm sure you saw this, are involved in this food aid scheme, which appears to basically just be like, look, I mean, I have to be honest here, it almost seems like a literal trap. Like there are hundreds of Palestinians who have literally been killed trying to get food. Is this the one run by an American evangelical preacher

I believe so I mean it's these American contractors and this is set up through the United States government and all these private Foundations and I know this can get difficult by the way even talking about this I recently saw referred to as a literal blood libel is to mention the fact that people who were coming for aid We're literally gunned down and murdered. That's supposedly a blood libel who were coming for aid were literally gunned down and murdered. That's supposedly a blood libel against the Jewish people. Like again, remove your rhetoric and let's talk in the realm of facts. Your own newspapers are reporting the fact that hundreds of civilians were killed trying to get aid in Gaza. I'm repeating what your Israeli press is saying. I'm repeating what the independent press is saying, what the people in Gaza are saying as well, to the extent that there's any independent oversight of this whatsoever.

And let's return to the question of, I think, what both of our orientation is, is this good for our country? I would say no. You can talk in the realm spiritually. I would also just talk in the realm, we can talk in the realm spiritually and like kind of what that means to normalize saying, let's kill children like Congressman Randy Fine, or other members who are like openly celebrated and think it's like a good thing. But we can easily talk about what we said about national interest. Is it healthy? Is it normal

to be obsessed with the way, with defending supposedly the most moral army in the world? When almost every counterterrorism and Iraq war veteran I know would be ashamed to have fought this way in the global war on terror. American troops, look, we made a lot of mistakes, but you can not fault the American soldier or the American Marine, the American Airmen for not, and many times putting their own lives on the line and many losing them to protect Iraqi and Afghan civilians. In fact, often that was a core part of our mission. And they would, you know, look, I don't think it was worth

it, but when required, they were willing to do so. And I haven't seen that in the way that this war has been conducted. I haven't either. But I don't understand why we would take responsibility for fixing Gaza. I mean, that's, we can't fix Baltimore. For real. You're right. Yeah. Why should we?

And this has been the plan from day one. That's what I was gonna say is, remember back in November, 2023, even shortly after October 7th, Israeli Knesset members and others were writing in the Wall Street Journal, actually it's the United States that should take in people from Gaza after we expel them. Or it American contractors. So the people of Gaza are so dangerous, every person in Gaza,

including the children, they're all terrorists because it's genetic. They've been saying that, it's genetic. What are we even talking about? Like what kind of, what is this? It's genetic? I can think of a widely discredited political movement in Europe that used to talk like that. It's genetic, whatever. Anyway, but there's two dangerous to live next to. We can't even have them in the region. You guys need to take them. That is the purest expression of contempt

for the United States I can imagine. And that was step one. Step two was all of these broad plans about US peacekeepers. Now it's broadly evolved. They're mostly trying to pass it off on the Gulf. But as you and I know, there's no Gulf military that could potentially occupy Gaza. It would, of course, either have to be fully funded by the United States of America or probably

would result in some sort of US troop presence in Jordan serving as the supply mission with some sort of never-ending deployment that would put people at risk, just like our current occupation in Syria, where we continue to have hundreds of troops for what? If anybody thinks you and I are conspiracy theorists, let's not forget that after this Israeli-backed Al-Qaeda takeover of Syria, which was, I guess, US and Israeli-backed Al-Qaeda takeover of Syria, that there are current negotiations between the Israeli and US government right now, this is out in the open, about the United States actually filling in areas of Syria that were taken over by Israel and occupying them as some sort of safe zone between Syria and between Israel.

And again, first of all, this is a government supported by Israel and I guess by the United States now at this point. So why do the troops even need to be there? Also, we were told that we have to stand up against countries seizing territory like Putin and Ukraine. I've literally watched the Greater Israel Project march forward in the last two years into Syria, of course, the West Bank, and now with Gaza

and the expansionist behavior there, which we just don't talk about here at all. It's like- It seems like a violation of our norms. It violates every norm that we have about the way that a civilized nation were to conduct itself. It's what we condemn and sanction. Isn't that why we're fighting Russia? Exactly. And that's where the hypocrisy of it collapses in and of itself. And the only way it's justifiable is earlier, what we referred to this like

bastardized Christian and rabbinical theological doctrine. My favorite was the former US ambassador, David Friedman, trying to lecture you about Christian theology. Yeah. Right? And, and, and it didn't learn that much from you. It didn't learn much, right? But it's like, what? And I mean my final point actually on that too, and as you know, you know, there's probably no more contempt than by a lot of the pro-Zionist movement for the actual Christian evangelicals who for whatever reason are so broadly supportive of Israel. They use them as pawn. They laugh at them. Oh, if they knew. Yeah, I wish they knew. I know a lot of them listen to

you. Yeah. I hope. Nice people, good people. Yeah, I hope nice people good people I you know If you go if you ever go to Israel probably 80% of flight is gonna be people from Alabama You know from all across the American South who are going to the Holy City, which is great You know, that's awesome But while they're there they're subjected to all of this end times propaganda about why it's so important to support the state And I think what's really sick is that the government, the Israeli government, uses them as political pawns in our country when secretly they have nothing but contempt and laugh at them about, oh, they're like, oh, look at these, you know, gross people in our streets

or any of that. There's no actual appreciation. I remember asking Benjamin Netanyahu, I mean, over 20 years ago, when terrorists were occupying the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, which is a city in which Jesus was born, so it's arguably the most important church in Christendom, and the IDF fired into the church, killed I think a bell ringer, I think may have killed a monk. Anyway, killed Christians in a Christian church, in a Christian city, formerly no longer a Christian city,

thanks to his occupation. But I was totally for Israel. I've never been against Israel, actually, which is the hilarious part. But I remember saying to him, like, you're using American weapons to fire into the church of the Nativity? This was on CNN at the time and boy, it was like, were you an anti-Semite?

No? I don't want to fire into the Church of the Nativity. How is that okay? And why does everyone think it's okay? It's not okay. It's not okay. And it's, I mean, we were talking yesterday about in the, you know, the recent settler violence that happened against

these Christian villages. I mean, part of why I feel upset about this is not just about the, you know, we, rightfully, if you're a Christian, you should also care about other Christians, but it's like, guys, this is just a normal behavior in the way that they act in this region and supported by the Israeli government. Now, again, as somebody who cares about my own country, it would all be bad things happen all over the world. That's a fact of life. But we, us funding them, it becoming a major political issue in our country. Unfortunately, you're turning people like us who I don't look, I never, Israel was never my number one issue. Never. No, no, no, no. I really did not particularly care. I spent time in the country and I liked it. And that was kind of my, I said,

ah, this is a Palestinian thing, it's kind of messed up, but whatever. You know, it's their business. Plus it was always like a lefty issue. All these people, you know, who you were, you don't agree with them on anything and they're running around talking about genocide. It's like, just stop.

I had no desire. Like the last thing I wanna do is get involved in this. I felt the same, but I felt compelled once I saw not only the level, well, I saw the level of which the Likud interest started basically becoming a part of the mainstream American right, became even more concerned when I saw Likud interests running state laws, passing BDS laws on the books of multiple states in the United States, restricting the free speech rights of American citizens. Ron DeSantis signs a censorship law, a blasphemy law in a foreign country?

Right, in a foreign country. I like DeSantis. That was the point where it was like, you're disgusting. I can't support you. Ron DeSantis, who banned critical race theory, then basically starts affirmative action for Jewish students in the state of Florida. I can't genuinely think of a better representation

of the modern American right. But it just destroyed Ron DeSantis. And I really liked Ron DeSantis. I knew him pretty well. I always tried my best in my limited way to promote Ron DeSantis, because I thought he did such a marvelous job during COVID in Florida.

I was in Florida for part of that, and I was like, oh, you're great. And he was totally destroyed by this one issue. Because it was totally, it was utterly inconsistent with everything else he was saying. It's like, wait, we're against affirmative action. We're against blasphemy laws.

I thought we were Americans. We have a first amendment. How can you travel to a foreign country and sign a law restricting my speech rights? You're exactly right. The University of California system, the largest state in our country, is now saying that any organization that supports BDS will have any federal grant money poll. I mean, listen, this is insanity. Yes, that happened, I think it happened a couple of days ago. They're warning students not even to speak out. Can you boycott the United States? Can you boycott other states? Yes, of course you can.

Of course you can. And that's my point, is that it's genuinely all just about a foreign nation and it's in one political party's interests and then hijacking it in ours. And I guess I should give the disclaimer, as you said, like you do, because I already know the inevitable. I'm not an anti-Semite. I spent a long time in Israel. I like Israel. I have people who I would consider genuine family who are Israeli and Libyan Israel. I love them. It is not about them. It's about their government.

It's about their party. And more specifically, it's actually about my country's relationship with them. I wish them nothing but the best. And I actually, I just wish we just treated it like any other country. I have affinity for Switzerland, Japan, India. I mean, I've been all over the world, which is one of the great blessings of my life. And I just want, I want to look at our relationship with all those countries on a relatively equal basis and just say, okay, what are we getting from this and what are we getting from that? And instead, I've watched this religion, both around support for Israel, but Ukraine and NATO. I mean, NATO is a religion, as you know.

It's transformed itself into a religion and not a defensive alliance. And watching that happen has been one of the most frustrating events of my life because the consequences in both of these cases are so dire for the people who elect a lot of these representatives to power and I mean we're is we got lucky that the 12-day war ended when it did but to say that that's the final solution is ridiculous because again Israel bombs Iraq in 1981 mission accomplished. Yes or no Israelbed Syria's reactor program in 2007. Mission accomplished? Did it stop there? Gaddafi gave up his nukes. Is it only just about nukes?

Of course it's not about nukes. It's about regime change. That's what they want. They're open about it. And, you know, plea, everyone, watch Israeli television. There are a lot of people who translate it. They brag about this stuff out in the open, about killing Gazans, about regime regime change about the way that they Manipulate the United States they say in Hebrew ask your friend. There are a lot of Hebrew speakers here in America

They can translate it for you. It's sickening. It's out in the open I mean they make Fox they put Fox News to shame a lot of these people which is hard to do Which is very hard boy. I yeah, I just I'm praying for Trump I'm praying for this is the last political solution to our problems yeah, and I think we I all my hope is in Trump and I hope that the administration course corrects and And does it really soon? Yeah, I think they need to on that issue with Epstein and broadly you know you were elected on a message about America first and just so blatantly putting another country's interests ahead of our own is not going to go unnoticed by a large segment

of the American public and specifically younger people who are suffering right now. The US economy right now is a disaster. The ability to buy a house rates are very high from the Fed. That's one thing is correct about Trump, you know, especially on the Federal Reserve about high interest rates, about the fact that we have a collapse of social trust. I spent a long time talking about gambling. We're watching extractive industries get richer and richer on the backs of a lot of ordinary and working class people.

Their lives are getting worse probably every single year. Just touting GDP and, oh, tax cuts for the rich and all this stuff I I don't think people can put up with all of that together and and and and you have three and a half years left you know you can still make a change if you want to. For people who aren't familiar with your show where do they find it? Breaking points breaking points on YouTube, Spotify, wherever you find it. Congratulations on your well-deserved success. Thank you. And I hope you're an inspiration to many others. Well, you're an inspiration to me. I owe a lot, all my career to you.

And so I have to say that. Thank you very much. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. I didn't do anything. We just hired a lot of people at low wages, which I guess is kind of what you're decrying. But great to see you sir. It worked out though. Thank you. Thank you. We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people.

While you're here, do us a favor, hit follow and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter, telling the truth always You will not miss it if you follow us on Spotify and hit the belt we appreciate it. Thanks for watching