The Tucker Carlson Show - Steve Witkoff’s Critical Role in Negotiating Global Peace, and the Warmongers Trying to Stop Him

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

Steve Witkoff has no background in diplomacy but has turned out to be the most effective American diplomat in a generation. Here’s how he’s trying to resolve the conflicts in Gaza and Ukraine. (00:00) What Witkoff Has Learned as Trump’s Global Negotiator (04:10) Negotiating With Israel, Hamas, and Qatar (12:50) Will We Achieve Peace Between Israel and Hamas? (23:09) Why Corporate Media Hates Witkoff (33:55) Israel’s Goals (42:47) Trump’s Plan for Gaza Paid partnerships with: Identity Guard: Get a 30-day free trial and over 60% off when you sign up at https://IdentityGuard.com/Tucker iTrust Capital: Get $100 funding bonus at https://www.iTrustCapital.com/Tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I think you've had one of the most, maybe the most remarkable life trajectories of anyone I've ever met. And you wind up close to Trump. You campaigned with Trump. You don't mean you're an intimate friend of the president's and you could have had any job you don't want any job um because you're doing your own thing and then he taps you as a as a diplomat as a negotiator on behalf of him and you wind up becoming you know probably the most effective negotiator in my lifetime and you have you know you speak for president. I think everyone acknowledges that you're honest and people like you personally. So those are obviously the foundations of effective diplomacy. But what have you learned about negotiating at a, you know, on behalf of a country in the last couple months.

Well, first of all, I think President Trump sets the table for all of us. He really does. This whole peace through strength thing, it's not just a slogan. It actually works. And so when he dispatches you to go to the Middle East, people are almost a little bit intimidated before you get there. And this goes for me and other people who are doing similar jobs. So he sets the table in a pretty powerful way.

But negotiating is being outcome-oriented. I talk about this a lot. It's figuring out where you want to get to. That's Trump's game plan all the time. I sit with the president and we talk often about what the end game is. Where does he want to get to? And once you decide where you want to get to, then it's all about tactically figuring out what that pathway is. With the Middle Eastern, you know, Tucker, when I first got in and I was talking to Brett McGurk, who was the envoy on behalf of Biden. He was a smart guy.

Yes. He just didn't have a great boss giving him direction. So he couldn't really speak on behalf of Biden. I was able to speak on behalf of Trump because we talked about it. We had a great conversation about it. He said to me, this is where I want to get to, Steve. And so when I went in there, I went in with the imprimatur of the president and it became a, you know, that's the difference maker. But I mean, clearly, and no one doubts that you speak for the president, that you know what the

president wants because you know the president, you actually talk to him, you're not some guy he just hired. And that makes a huge difference. But it also seems like you think through where where the whoever you're negotiating with is coming from, like, what do they want? I speak for the president, it's not because I presume what he's thinking. It's because I ask what he's thinking. He is the president. I'm in my job only because of him. And to me, I give him the respect of always asking the question, where do you want to get to, Mr. President? And so, that's critical. So, now I know where he stands, and now it's about tactics. As you talk about from the other side's standpoint, it's important for me to know or to have a feeling of where the Israelis want to get to. What about the Qataris? They're the mediators at the table.

What do they want to accomplish here? What about Hamas? Where are they? Will they really demilitarize? Is that something they'll do? Will they take the Golden Bridge out of Gaza? All of these are considerations. But first, I have to find out where the boss wants to end up. And the boss is President Trump.

It almost feels forbidden for you to say what you just said. So what does Israel want? Obviously, a critical, a Vicky question. But there are other players. And what do Israel want? Obviously a critical, the key question, but there are other players and what do they want? And I don't know that I've heard anybody say that out loud ever. Any American say that out loud? And I think you the case of the Qataris, they're criticized for not being well-motivated. It's preposterous. They are well-motivated. They're good, decent people. What they want is a mediation that's effective, that gets to a peace goal. And why? Because they're a small nation and they want to be acknowledged as a peacemaker. And I think the president realizes that, and I realize that today. But we have to

know that. If they had a different agenda, it would be important for us to know that different agenda. I think if they had a different agenda, it would be fine, as long as we weren't operating blind. And operating blind is really the problem in a negotiation like this. You have to know where everybody stands. I'm just laughing because what you're saying is so obviously true. It's a prerequisite to getting a deal. And yet it is so different from the posture that the last couple of generations of diplomats have taken, which is like, here's what we want, shut up and do it. And I just don't think, leaving aside like moral considerations, I don't think that's been very effective. Well, you know, here's an example, Gaza and what the president set forth

is what he wanted to do with Gaza. I came back from my first trip. This is before he was inaugurated where we had permission from the Biden administration to collaborate with them. Yes. And the president said,

when do you think Gaza can be reconstructed? 15 years was my answer, maybe 20. And he said, why? I said, and I gave him the battlefield conditions. I was in Gaza, actually, that it's been decimated. It's been destroyed. There are tunnels underneath. So think Swiss cheese underneath. And then they got hit with bunker buster bombs. So there's no rock there anymore. There's no place to put footings if you're going to build buildings. And yet the whole world thought that this was a five-year reconstruction plan. And why?

Because the Biden May 27th protocol, which is the operating agreement pursuant to which the negotiation between Hamas and the U.S. government and Israel happen talks about a five-year plan. But that's a false set of facts. Level setting the facts, you have to acknowledge that it's a 15 to 20-year plan. When we first started talking 15 to 20 years, everyone said that we didn't know what we were talking about until the journal wrote an article and said 15 to 20 years yes so the president's plan about casa was all about how do we how do we put people back in a battle zone where there are munitions all over the field or where there are these latent conditions so that a kid could fall into a hole and go 40 50 60, 60 feet down, and you'd never know that he was there. Who would do such a thing?

If we had buildings in those conditions in New York, there would be yellow tape all around, and no one would be allowed in. And then, of course, he got criticized for that, as if he was looking to create a beachside community with gleaming towers and casinos. It was preposterous. He was being realistic about how you needed to consider Gaza. So I think it's really important that when you're making these decisions that you level set the facts. And that was my instructions from President Trump.

Go out there, level set the facts, figure out what it is, and then we'll make decisions about where we want to see Gaza going to to and i think we've got a better we got that's a better program it's definitely a better program i mean operating on the basis of honesty works yeah so okay can um i think the the president's goal is pretty clear he said it many times he campaigned on he was elected on it which is we want stability and peace in the world it's not good for anybody when we don't have that um but to the extent that you understand it and since you're one of the few people who seems willing to say it out loud can you just describe the three the three players in the current conflict the middle east the big ones can you go through and

tell us what you think each one wants? What's their goal? So Israel? Yes. Hamas? Yes. And? Qatar. And Qatar. So I think Qatar is a small nation, probably has the highest GDP per capita, per person, right, of anyone in the world.

Huge, huge reserves. I think they want stability. I think they want a peace treaty from the United States. Why? Because, and all the Middle East, all the GCC countries want that, by the way. This is an interesting point. Everybody thinks the peace treaty is about physical defense. What it's really about is the United States providing a security wrapper so that they're all financeable. Today, you can't borrow money in those countries. So, if you want to go do a deal in Saudi Arabia, in the UAE, JP Morgan, if they are the hypothetical bank, has to underwrite war risk. They have to underwrite, will the Houthis in Saudi Arabia fire in a hypersonic missile and

destroy that AI data center that you just bought for $200 billion? That's a real problem. So, a lot of these countries want defense treaties so that they're not just building out of their pocket, they're taking their oil money and they're actually leveraging it and creating a better economy long-term. So I think the Qataris want stability and they don't get enough credit for that motivation. It's a good motivation for their people. Amen. But they're often accused, almost universally accused in the U.S. media of being agents of Iran. Yeah, it's preposterous. Look, they're a Muslim nation. In the past, they've had some views that are a little bit more radical from an Islamist standpoint than they are today, but it's moderated quite a bit.

There's no doubt that they're an ally of the United States. There's no doubt about that. They have a huge air base there. I mean, US. By the way, and they pay for every dollar of it. They don't have their handout for a thing. There is nothing that the United States has to fund with regard to that air base. That's pretty unusual. That's amazing. Right? So they fund everything. They don't ask for much. I think I had a conversation with General Carrillo, Eric Carrillo, who runs CENTCOM,

an amazing man. And I said to him, what do you think of the Qataris? He says, they're special people. So the people in the know know that they're good, decent people. What does Hamas want? Well, I think they want to stay there till the end of time and they want to rule Gaza. Yes. And that's unacceptable.

So we have to know that. We had to know what they wanted. What they want is unacceptable. What's acceptable to us is they need to demilitarize. Then maybe they could stay there a little bit, right? Be involved politically. But they can't be involved. We can't have a terrorist organization running Gaza because that won't be acceptable to Israel.

Then we'll just have the same exact experiences. Every 5, 10, 15 years, we're going to have an October 27th. Yes. October 7th, pardon me. So that's what Hamas wants. That's not possible. What do they like to deal with? I've never really – I've never been in the same room as them, which is a little bit weird, wouldn't you say?

Like a negotiation where you don't have the other party. Like you don't even know if the guy behind the wall is the Wizard of Oz or he's not the Wizard of Oz, right? So how do you, I mean, without, you know, giving away anything you can. I think we trust the Qataris. If I didn't trust the Qataris, then that would be really problematic, not meeting with Hamas. And, of course, we reach... So you can communicate with Hamas through the Qataris. Right. And Sheikh Mohammed, the prime minister of Qatar, is a good man.

He certainly is a good man. He's a special guy. He really is. And he cares. And I've spent a lot of time with him and broken bread with him. And he's just a good, decent human being who wants what's best for his people. But also, like what you were alluding to before, he's able to put himself in the shoes of the Israelis, of the United States, and I think explain to the Qataris, excuse me, explain to Hamas where they're going to have to get to to make a deal. And I mean, from an American perspective, like it's just hard to even understand what Hamas is thinking. But it's essential to understand. I mean, just as a procedural matter, we need to know.

So is it hard for you to understand? Like, do you feel like you can effectively communicate with them even through proxy and understand what they want and what their, you know, what their red lines are or whatever? Can you negotiate with them? Well, it's hard. You know, I'll give you an example of what makes it hard. I went to Gaza and then I had this fabulous lunch with sancom people you military guys yeah yeah i shook hands of everybody i met because who doesn't want to shake the hand of these guys who are out in the field you know they they they protect our country um i'm talking about our military guys and then they showed me this is southern command of israel then showed

me a film of what happened on October 7th. Yeah. And the film is horrific. Yes. It is about mass rapes. Yeah. There's pictures of Hamas people cutting the head off of an Israeli soldier. I watched them saw the head off.

I mean, it's really terrible stuff. And it's beyond what I've ever seen. And it can taint you. It can taint the way you're going to feel about these people. And I think sometimes as a negotiator, you have to be dispassionate. Yes. It's not easy to make decisions if you're going to, but I had to see that film, Tucker. I mean, that film is a reality. I mean, we can't ignore the reality of what

happened on October 7th. Right. Now, they would tell you that they've got justification, but there's no justification for what happened that day. There just isn't. And unfortunately, there were security lapses that day that shouldn't have happened that accentuated what happened that day, which shouldn't have happened. Do we understand that? I think we understand that there were security lapses, that there were some mistakes that were made. Yes. But we're humans. We're not robots.

Oh, I agree. We're not completely overwhelmed by AI right now. So people will make mistakes. There were intelligence mistakes, but there's some really good people who were involved here. I, you know, I met some exceptional people in Israel. I mean, really some exceptional people who, and it's a difficult situation. But I think you have to know what Hamas wants, just to go back to your question. Yes. And then you've got to figure out what you can give them that allows them to walk out.

Because that's what's needed here. You know, what we heard in the beginning of this conflict is Hamas is ideological. They're prepared to die. For a whole variety of reasons, I personally, and I talked to the president about this. There's nothing I don't talk to the president about before we're going to make a decision because he is the guy. He was elected. I was not. None of the other people were. He was elected. And I think that's how we have to function. With that said, I said to him, I don't think that they are as ideologically locked in. They're not ideologically intractable.

I never believe that, by the way. I believe they strap on the suicide vests onto young kids who don't know what they're doing, right? And they tell them a story. And once you understand that, once you understand that they wanted to live, then you were able to talk to them in a more effective way. Smart, smart. That is smart. But how hard was it to come to that conclusion? You know what? I get a lot of intelligence reports, so I'm able to read things. And it just felt to me that the rhythm and the cadence of the negotiation,

that's part of it too, right? If I'm not there all the time, I'm getting secondhand information. I had to feel it for myself. I had to be able to sort of live it in real time. And that's when I sort of came to the conclusion that they wanted alternatives. We're in a negotiation right now to maybe stop some of these Israeli strikes

and maybe finish this conflict with dialogue. And if I don't have a feeling that we can accomplish that, why would I waste my time? Or the United States time? And worse yet, why would I come to the president, recommend to him that we could finish something with dialogue, and then we can't be that effective. That's a bad policy prescription. If I'm not in this thing, making those sort of assessments and being able to come back to the president and say, I think we can finish it with dialogue or not. And those, by the way, those calculations are going to be the same with the Iranians, and they're going to be the same with the Iranians.

And they're going to be the same with the Russians and the Ukrainians. And they're going to be the same with Azerbaijan and Armenia. So those principles apply to all of these conflicts that we're going to maybe talk about today. So it's not a conspiracy theory, it turns out, to say there's fraud in the government, whether it's mysterious 150-year-olds cashing checks or dead people on the voter rolls. The system is filled with fraud and its perpetrators are slipping through the cracks. Who's protecting you exactly? Unless you're actively monitoring your personal data, you are leaving yourself and your family exposed. Data hawks are constantly looking for ways to exploit your information, which is why we recommend Identity Guard. Identity Guard's real-time alerts let you know if your

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Take control of your life, protect your family, be prepared. Go to AmmoSquared.com to learn more. I'm just going to say this for a third time. I won't keep repeating myself, but that's just such a different way of looking at the conflict not just in gaza but in all the places you just mentioned acknowledging that you know we're on we're sympathetic to one side but both sides have an interest and like they reason can still play a role in this negotiation can play a role dialogue can play a role i i just, I haven't heard anybody

say that in so long. And you've taken an enormous amount of abuse. I don't even know if you're aware of it because you're always on an airplane, but like in U.S. media and social media, attacking you as like an agent of all kinds of different foreign powers. You know, he's working for

Hamas. He's working for the Qataris. Like, does that penetrate at all? You know, in the beginning, I didn't like it yeah i bet but um one night i was reflecting on what someone told me after my um my son andrew died and they said to me you're never going to have a bigger hit than that in your life losing a child it's a bad club to be a member of oh there's nothing nothing worse nothing worse. Nothing worse. And then I began to get like President Trump, not caring what people said. I'd wake up in the morning, read the paper. I'd read some sort of explanation about why I said something or did something. And it was preposterous, Tucker, just preposterous. So one day I, what's that movie? There was some movie where they kept,

won the Academy. I can't remember the name. I just stopped caring. Yes. I just stopped caring about what the news media said about me. So I've experienced a little bit of this myself, nothing compared to what you've just experienced, but it does seem like some of these criticisms of you are not actually sincere. Nobody really thinks you're like pro-Hamas or working for the Qataris. But the point is to throw you off balance and to sort of put a leash around your neck and control you. No doubt. Right? That's the agenda. That's the agenda. No doubt. And it seems to have had no effect. From all sides. From all sides, of course. Oh, absolutely. I've had a couple of experiences where first I was attacked as being pro-Qatari sympathizer.

By the way, Qatar is a mediator here. They're not a party to the conflict. They're a mediator. And by the way, they've mediated all over the world. No different than the Swiss and the Norwegians. They've mediated in Russia. They've mediated in Afghanistan. They've mediated in Afghanistan. And God bless them. I know. And they've done an effective job. They're good at it. So, how could I not collaborate with

the mediator and be, if I'm not collaborating with the mediator, I'm bound to be ineffective. It's not even possible that I could do the job. I had to know everything that they knew. So that means collaboration. And that's how President Trump operates too. I learned the business from him. I went into the business because of him, the real estate business. And this is his ethos. This is how he operates. And so I'm really following him in a certain respect. I didn't realize you went into that. So I didn't know. I knew you'd known him forever. I didn't know that. Oh, no, I wanted to be him. By the way, everybody wanted to be him. He'd come to 101 Park Avenue where I was a lawyer.

He had this swashbuckling style. I used to see him come in and I used to say, God, I want to be him. I don't want to be the lawyer. I don't want to be the Scrivener. I want to be that man. Yeah. I can remember saying that. Yeah. He was like the Michael Jordan to me, you know, of the real estate business. It's incredible the turns your life has taken. It's just incredible. When you have a chance to sort it out, when all this is over, I think you're going to look at your own life and say, well, that was amazing. Well, I've been blessed. I mean, it used to be that I couldn't use the word blessing because of my boy, but of his death. But now I can say I was blessed, but for this overwhelming tragedy.

And I think my son, Tucker, allows me to be, to have this sense of, I relate to a lot of the hostage families. You know, many of these families are never going to get their children back. Their children have either been killed or may in fact get killed if we don't successfully get to a peace program in Gaza. So I think that this sense of sensitivity or empathy that I have, I can relate to them. They all have my telephone numbers. I talk to them on a daily basis. And I think that's been a big, it's been a big help for them. But interestingly enough, it's been a big help for me. And I talked to the president about this. I had hostage families in the Oval Office the other day. The president was tired. And he

said to me, he knew they were at my office, and he said, bring them up. Let me at least say hello to them and get connected to them. But let them know I only have a couple of minutes, because it was a hectic day. He spent an hour and a half with them, talked to every one of them, gave them his challenge coin, every one of them, listened to their stories. People who talked about children who might not come home. Many of these people were captives themselves, hostages. You know, it's a very real experience when you sit there and you listen to what it was like. Some of these people lived in cages, were chained 24 hours a day.

You know, we talked about what it was like to find a bathroom, right? People who lived in cages were chained 24 hours a day. We talked about what it was like to find a bathroom, right? Or what it was like to live in the dark or to be starving to death, you know, as some of them were. Or to have watched people be murdered. And the president, as a president, he doesn't have to do that if he doesn't want to. He could sort of get the information just from me. But it's up close and personal for him. And that way of doing things guides people like me who work for him. Now I want to get up close and personal. That's why I went to Gaza. I was the first US official to go to Gaza in 22 years. But how would you implement a peace deal if you didn't

go to the place where the peace deal was being implemented i mean it's curious right like it is who would not who would try to get who would get try to get a peace deal done and then the it's all in the implementation so what what the contract says what the writing says now we have to figure out that the battlefield conditions nobody had been there it's it's kind of crazy well it crazy, and it's connected to what you've been saying for the last 20 minutes, which is you have to understand all sides if you want to affect the outcome that you've decided you want. Correct. Yes. Again, that's a revolutionary development in American diplomacy, and I just am thrilled to see it.

So, finally, the biggest player in all of this, of course, is the government of Israel. What do they want? What is the government of Israel? Leaving aside the population of Israel, I have no idea. But what does the government making these decisions want? Well, I think that's complicated. I think they're well-motivated. I think there are things that they're trying to get done. You know, as an example, we would not be as effective in what we're doing there if Bibi did not get Nasrallah out of the picture in Lebanon. If he did not decapitate, because he's effectively decapitated Hezbollah.

If he did not do what he did with Hamas, he's decapitated Hamas. Hamas is nowhere close to the terrorist organization that they were beforehand. Both of those events inform on his relationship with Iran and Iran using, continuing to use proxies and so forth. They're less prone to do those sorts of things today, right? And so that sort of Iranian crescent or that Islamist crescent that everybody thought was going to be effective, it's been largely eliminated. So he's done an exceptional job with that. But of course, the rap he gets is that he's more concerned about the fight than he is about the hostages. I think in some respects, I understand how people make that

assessment, but I don't necessarily agree with it. I think that he does want to get hostages home if he can, but he believes that pressuring Hamas is the only way to do it. I think in some respects, he's right. Look, the nuances here, the changes that happen there on a day-to-day basis. We were at the Arab summit a week and a half ago. We made a proposal to Hamas. They considered it. They rejected it the next day.

We thought it was unacceptable that they rejected it. Three days later, the Israelis went in. Guess what? They're talking again. Stuff changes there, Tucker. Hour to hour. You really have to stay on top of it. I think Bibi feels that he's doing the right thing.

I think he goes up against public opinion because public opinion there wants those hostages home. Public opinion in Israel? In Israel. Yeah, you don't get that sense, I don't think, from American media. But Israel has always been, you know, there's been a robust debate since I started going to Israel. You know, they have a very vigorous debate internally about their government. Like it's, you know, people feel free to say. I went to Hostage Square and I went with the detail and my guys were afraid for me to get out.

There were, I don't know, four or five thousand people there and we were passing by and I said, let's stop. You know, it was, there was no plan to go there. Let's stop. We didn't have a lot of security with us. I knew it was going to be fine. I knew it. I came in there. I spent almost an hour there.

It was spiritual. All the families were there. Pastages who had been released were there. People were crying. Look, getting the, this has infected Israel. It's fractured Israel. It's like a seam cutting right through the soul of the country. We've got to get these people back. I talked to Bibi about it. I talked to Dermot about it. But

they also have a view strategically about Hamas, how they have to be dealt with. I'm not sure. In some respects, there are times that we agree with each other. There are times we slightly disagree, but I think they're well motivated is my point. And our policy is that Hamas cannot continue to exist here. That's the president's policy. And I'm someone who follows the president because he's the one who got elected. And I believe in his policy. And he got elected on, I think, a pretty clear vision of how he wanted to manage the world to the extent that we can. And again, it was, you know, no more chaos. And to the extent you can avoid it, no more wars. And Americans really responded to that. And the world understands that. Like everyone kind of knows

that's the agenda. And you've said many times, we talk through what we want the outcome to be before we begin the tactical considerations. I, just in my traveling, there are a lot of Gulf countries that are, you know, have extensive, very, much more than people understand, relations with Israel. Some have signed the accord, others haven't, but they all deal with the Israelis all the time. They're not hostile to the Israelis. But not one person I've spoken to understands what the long-term vision is. Like, what's the plan here? If you get everything you want, what does it look like?

Do you understand it? Well, I understand we have to have that notion i understand that we have to be outcome oriented what what would be how we're operating myopically if we if we're not outcome oriented if we don't i mean peace stability the gulf coast could be one of the most undervalued opportunities if we get peace and stability throughout the region. If we solve Iran and you can finance in that market, the Israelis are brilliant from a technological standpoint. They've got a huge technological base there. Yes.

They're in AI, robotics, blockchain. That's where the UAE is today. I know. That's where Saudi Arabia is today. That's where Qatar is today. Can you imagine all these countries working collaboratively together and creating that type of market? It could be much bigger than Europe. Europe is dysfunctional today. Imagine if they became functional and everybody's a business guy there. It could be amazing. Completely agree. I think the core question is the map. You know, for thousands of years, it's been about the land.

What does the map look like? Who controls what? And it's clearly had a destabilizing effect on some of the poor, more populated countries. No doubt. Specifically Jordan and Egypt. A hundred million people in Egypt. I think it might be helpful for everybody if there was just a clear picture of when this is all done, here's what we want the map to be, and then we can debate that. Do you have any sense of what the map would look like from Israel's perspective?

When you say the map, you mean what? What countries? Well, what, okay, so Israel's moved into Lebanon and Syria. They're not part of Israel, but they control them. so when all this is over what does the Israeli government hope to control and then if that were clear then I think people would say you know they could either live with it or they can't but it would have a calming effect

if people knew what the goal was so I would say the goal begins with how do we deal with Iran that's the biggie so the, the first is nuclear. We cannot have that. And we can talk about it in this session, how bold it was for the president to send that letter, because many would not. And that's an important thing, but I'll leave it to the end. So, it begins with Iranian nuclear, but most importantly, because Iranian nuclear, if they were to have a bomb, that would create North Korea in the GCC. We cannot have that. North Korea, where they are, has outsized influence as a very small nation. We can never allow someone to have a nuclear weapon and have outsized influence. That doesn't work. So, if we can solve for that, which I'm hopeful that we can, and we can talk about that too.

The next thing we need to deal with, Iran, is that they're being a benefactor of these proxy armies. Right. Because we've proven that that's not existential. They, for all intents and purposes, destroyed Hezbollah. So they're not really an existential risk. Hamas, same thing. The Houthis, we're having, you know, we're in a conflict with them today. I think we'll prove that they won't be an existential risk either. But if we can get these terrorist organizations eliminated as risks,

not existential, but still risks, they're destabilizing risks, then we'll normalize everywhere. I think Lebanon could normalize with Israel, literally. Normalize meaning a peace treaty with the two countries. That's really possible. Syria too. The indications are that Jelani is a different person

than he once was. And people do change. You at 55 are completely different than how you were at 35. That's for sure. And I say to myself, I'm a different person today at 68 years old. I'm not the person I knew 30 years ago. So maybe Jelani in Syria is a different guy. They've driven Iran out.

Imagine if Lebanon normalizes, Syria normalizes, and the Saudis sign a normalization treaty with Israel because there's a peace in Gaza. They must have that as a prerequisite. That's a condition precedent to Saudi normalizing. But now you'd begin to have a GCC that all work together. I mean, that would be epic. It would be. And I think it'd be good for the world. For sure, it would be good for the world because Europe is dying, unfortunately.

And so the United States needs allies abroad. And those are all potential allies. Well, they are allies already. I couldn't agree with you more. And remember, Tucker, one more thing as a condition in that region, you have young leadership. You have young leadership in MBS. You have relatively young leadership in the UAE. You have relatively young leadership, new leadership in Qatar. People who don't have the old sensibilities, people who want to do business, who realizes like Trump's way is people vote their pocketbook, right? So he wants to bring the bacon home to the United States. I think

everybody's bought into that over in the GCC. I agree. I mean, we're reverting to like human nature. People want stability and prosperity for sure. Correct. But looming over all of these countries and their remarkable success, both economically and socially, they're just like great countries, in my opinion. Is this, you know, is the conflict in Gaza and not just Gaza, but the idea that, wow, this could all blow up tomorrow because we don't know what the Israeli plan is. And even people who should know don't seem to know. And do you think at some point they will articulate like, here's our plan? I think so. First of all, I think that the president, President Trump's approach to Gaza has engendered a lot of lively discussion about different ways to deal with Gaza.

We're now seeing an Egyptian plan. We're seeing the Saudis put together a white paper. So I think what we're going to do with Gaza is going to become much more apparent over the next six to 12 months. But Gaza is a flashpoint, and we've got to figure that out. And I agree with the president when he said the old plans don't work. The old plans, the last 40, 50 years of policy prescription in Gaza meant war, rebuild, more war, more rebuilding. It's just that's not something that made any sense,

which is why the president began to say maybe we need to think about it in a different way. more rebuilding. It's just, that's not something that made any sense, which is why the president began to say, maybe we need to think about it in a different way. Now he got criticized for it because that's what happens when you begin to go up against, you know, the old way of thinking and you want to sort of introduce a new way of thinking. Well, a new way of thinking is definitely needed. I think everybody realizes that.

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One question, I don't know if it's answerable. I've just noticed it. I was talking to some Israeli government people yesterday. And so here you have, you know, October 7th, obviously traumatic to Israel. But you get the destruction of the leadership of Hamas. You expelled, you broke Hezbollah. Nasrallah's dead.

No one ever, I was there for the 2006 war. No one ever thought that was going to happen. I didn't anyway. That happened. And Bashar al-Assad's gone from Syria. And there's a more kind of pro-Israel Jelani leader in Syria. So that seems like from an Israeli perspective, those seem like massive wins that nobody thought were possible.

And yet I detect in the people I know in Israel a feeling like they feel more under threat almost. Do you feel that? Well, I think, you know, I go to Israel quite often. Yeah. And I think there's a feeling of, with some, when does the violence end? At what point have we had enough of it? And I think that's the issue.

And, you know, maybe the Israeli government needs to do, look, I understand where they're coming from. Their central premise or thesis is that Hamas cannot be allowed to live on. And I think we're talking about now demilitarizing. That's the big thing. I don't think anyone has a feeling that you can just sort of kill off Hamas. It's an idea, right?

That's what Hamas is about. It's an ideological idea. But they can't be allowed to ever again ferment alongside of the Muslim Brotherhood, alongside of Islamic Jihad. These are all groups that are operating in Gaza today. We just can't have an October 7th ever again. Now, October 7th was like 9-11. What 9-11 was in the United States, October 7th was the Israelis' version of...

But what's interesting is it happened at exactly the moment that it felt like things were on track to get better. I mean, the Abraham Accords had been signed. Saudi didn't sign. But there was some thought that they might, I think. I mean, it was. And so, like, the trajectory was like that. And all of a sudden, it just went in the opposite direction. And so, then the question becomes, well, like, how do you ensure, how do you build a framework where there's, like, enduring peace and everyone can just go on with living their lives and building their businesses and all that? Well, we're going to need a very good plan on Gaza. It's going to begin with that.

We're going to need stability on Gaza. Stability on Gaza could mean some people come back. It could mean some people don't come back. But I believe we have to get to a place where people can live a better life in Gaza, and we have to have a plan for that. That involves housing. But it also involves these people's aspirations. What is going to happen for their children? Are their children like our children?

You want better for your kids. I want better for my kids. I want them to go and get an education, to be self-sufficient. I don't think Gazan people have ever really feel that way about. We have feel that way. They don't have that opportunity for their families. We have to give them that opportunity or find pathways for them to

pursue those opportunities. That's what President Trump was talking about when he talked about a new way of thinking about Gaza. So, and we're going to attempt to, you know, to ascertain different development plans for Gaza. Could involve the word two-state? would look like and who controls the utilities and airports and all that stuff. But lots of details to hammer out. But man, I haven't in the past five or six, 10 years

heard anybody in authority even mention it. Because when you use those words, it's like a flashpoint, right? So I use the word, I can be attacked for it. To me, it's just a word right what what two state to me means is how do we have a better living prescription for palestinians who are living in gaza let's get let's get to that place but it's not just about housing maybe it's about ai coming there maybe it's about hyperscale data centers being seeded into that area because we

need to have that. And these people can now take advantage and we can create jobs for them there. Maybe it's about blockchain and robotics coming there. Maybe it's about pharmaceutical manufacturing coming there. We can't rebuild Gaza and it be based on a welfare system. We have to give people prospects, economic and financial prospects. That's exactly right. You have to treat them like human beings, adults. Where they have nothing. Interesting.

So you think by saying two-state, I mean, that's a controversial thing to say now. Yeah. But obviously you don't care. So do you think the ceasefire that you on the president's behalf got the ceasefire? I mean, that was my read anyway. You went to Israel and said the president wants this and you got it. But then it ended. What are the prospects now? What do you think happens next? Well, let me say this. We got it because they didn't want to defy him. He's a bad guy to defy. The Israelis? No, President Trump.

No, but the Israelis did not want to defy Trump. But not just the Israelis. It was the Israelis. It was Hamas. It was Qatar wanting, you know, everybody had to know that we needed to pull in the same pull in this, right. To pull in the same way. And we got, it was a lot of miscommunication in that deal. Lots.

We, we cleaned up the miscommunication. That was the game plan. And, uh, but it was the president's, his sort of overarching personality. It,

and, and, and, and letting everybody know that, that success was not an option. It had to be. It was a mandate. And that's how we got to that place.

I mean, it would take me a 10-hour interview to explain to you the ins and outs of how we actually got there. Oh, I can't even imagine. But the story was that you just kind of rolled in and said, here's what we're doing. This is what the president wants. Well, that's what he would do. Yeah. So that's what I did. Because that's what we're doing. This is what the president wants. Well, that's what he would do. So that's what I did because that's what he would do. He would roll in and say, this is unacceptable. This is what we need to have happen. And that's effectively what I did. By the way, why not? Why reinvent the wheel? Why not copy the master? He's the master. So why not copy the strategy? It's worked effectively.

When I saw you do that on his behalf, my first thought was, why didn't the Biden people do this? I mean, they lost for a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons they lost was the ongoing Gaza conflict, and that alienated a ton of their voters. I mean, that was a crisis for them. You know, Muslims in Southeast Michigan voted for trump in part because of that yeah and like a lot of them did never thought i'd live to see that and orthodox jews voted for him too which was like amazing so why didn't and they knew it was hurting them why didn't they do that because joe biden is not donald trump it's as simple as that. So you think about it, when his policymakers walked into the Oval Office, were they going to get that sort of direct mandate from him? And I was not there,

so this is just a thesis. My bet is not. I walk into the Oval Office, Tucker, it's purposeful. That's what it feels like. We're there to get solutions, to agree on solutions, and then to decide on how tactically we're going to get to that place. That's what we do. We sit in the Oval Office. I could be sitting there with Susie Wiles, John Radcliffe, Mike Waltz, the Secretary of State Marco Rubio. I mean, exceptional human beings. Tulsi Gabbard. And, yeah, we have some fun together because it's a very tight-knit team. I mean, he's got a great team this year that he's put into place this year.

And hopefully they'll all be there for the entire term. But we're there to be solution based. And it's a collaborative conversation with the president leading the conversation. He's interested in a lot of different opinions, which I think underscores what a great leader he is. He's not stuck on a view. He's prepared to consider different things. I think that makes him a great leader. I think people have that misconception about him that, you know, he wakes up in the morning and, you know, this is the way it's going to be. No, he listens. He's intent on understanding

different viewpoints. That's for sure. He's prepared to be flexible in his thinking. I think that's what comes from a lifetime of experience. And I think it's a great example to all of us who work for him because we go out with that way of thinking too for the most part. Do you think there's hope for a cessation of violence in Gaza like soon? I do. I do. I mean I'm not at liberty at this moment to talk about – I bet you're not.

But I think there have been signs. I think the Israelis going in is in some respects unfortunate and in some respects falls into the had-to-be bucket. It kind of had to be. Hamas was not responding. They were not. And their responses were unreasonable. And I, you know, look, I warned everybody at the Arab summit. We presented a proposal at the Arab summit 10 days ago or two weeks ago. That was reasonable. That was a bridge to get to a peace deal, a bridge to get to demilitarization of Hamas and a discussion about an enduring truce. That's what I was presenting 10 days ago. And Hamas, their reaction was completely inappropriate.

Inappropriate is probably a light word. But I warned everybody that this was going to result in some sort of military action. Not because I know. I did not know before the Israelis went in. I just sensed that that was going to be the only alternative based on Hamas's reaction. Now, that may not... We may be able to reverse things, or we may use this, we may be able to use this to get Hamas to be a whole lot more reasonable, because they have a lot of sway there,

and they impose that sway at the point of a gun, which is why we have to demilitarize them. We need real elections in Gaza. There has to be a whole new way of thinking. We need a real security force there to ensure to Israel that they're not going to have, we're not, we're never going to have an October 7th ever again. There is huge concern, as I know you know, from a lot of the neighboring countries that the conflict in Gaza, which is of course streamed in everyone's iPhone, a lot of people will be killed in Gaza, a lot of kids,

and that's inflaming the populations of some of these countries, again, specifically Egypt and Jordan, to such a point that those governments could fall and cause massive chaos, including in Europe. Is that a factor? That worry, is that a factor? Huge factor. It's a huge factor.

I think King Abdullah in Jordan has done an amazing job, amazing job of figuring out how to deal with that instability. But, you know, in some respects, he's been lucky. I think Egypt is a flashpoint. All the good that happened in the Ayoun election because of Nasrallah and Sinwar being eliminated, that could all be reversed if we lose Egypt. What happened in Syria was a huge data point for the region. I mean, getting him out, Assad, was a big deal. And no one ever expected it. But Egypt has a very restive... I want to say the stats in Egypt are huge unemployment among... Under 25, like 45% unemployment. A country can't exist like that.

They're largely broke. They need a lot of help. If we have a bad event in Egypt, it could take us back. And Saudi Arabia also, large, you know, I mean, he's an amazing leader, MBS, but people are worried about his young population and how they're looking at this whole thing, which is why we've got to solve Gaza. Because if we solve Gaza, which is the condition precedent to Saudi normalizing, then Saudi can normalize. And if they normalize,

we're building on the framework of the Abraham Peace Accords, which of course is the president's creation. He wants the Abraham Peace Accords to be augmented, and we're in the process of doing it. We think we're going to be announcing several new countries who are joining. It feels like, I don't know, I'm not there, but it feels like there's some significant unrest in Turkey. Yeah.

And this being driven by this, being driven by what's happening in Syria, which, of course, Turkey. Yeah. And this being driven by this, being driven by what's happening in Syria, which of course Turkey participated in, that Erdogan has seen by some in his country as a tool of Israel or... I mean, if you had like real problems in Turkey, that would be like a global disaster, of course, because they've got this massive military. Is there a lot of concern about that?

Well, I think there was, but I think the president had a great conversation with Erdogan a couple of days ago. Really transformational, I would describe it. I mean, I think it's been underreported, to tell you the truth. And I think it's underreported because of the hoodies, because of what happened with Israel Israel and because of what's going on with Russia, Ukraine. It's not really, you know, a headline, but I think Tom Barrack, who's the ambassador there, has done and will do an exceptional job. I think the president has a relationship with Erdogan and that's going to be important. And I think that there's some good coming. There's some, just a lot of good positive news coming out of Turkey right now

as a result of that conversation. So I think you'll see that in the reporting in the coming days. Good. So if you don't mind, I'd love to, so here's the timeline as I understand it as an observer. So you go over, you deliver the president's message. There is a ceasefire in Gaza,

which as you've said five times is a prerequisite to a lot of other things. Like it's hard to do anything with this open wound. So you do that. And the president says, wow, Steve Witkoff, my friend from the real estate business, like you're really good at this. Sends you to Russia. Is that fair? It's not so far from the truth right so it's like i'm watching this because i knew you before and i was like this is the most amazing thing i've ever seen i'm cheering you by the way um where are we there with that conflict would you say i think we've made more progress again by the way look i could tucker it i'm'm not just saying it. Every solution comes as a result of President Trump. And I don't get paid to say that. I say it because it is the absolute truth. Putin's got a huge respect for the president. And, you know, you saw what happened in the Oval Office with Zelensky and the president, right? Yes. I mean, disrespecting him is not a healthy way to have a good relationship.

The arrogance of small countries, it's like, get some perspective. I mean, come on. Can you imagine acting like that? And they're dependent on us. Oh, I know. And we've been so good to them. I know. And I think that's, but look,

that's been corrected. And that's a really good thing. It got corrected. And hopefully, we'll chalk it up to a misunderstanding. And we'll get to a peace solution here. But I believe that we have made more progress in Russia, in this Russian-Ukraine conflict in the last eight weeks than anyone thought we would ever make. I hear people describe this last conversation that the president had with President Putin as unsuccessful. It's preposterous, by the way. We talked throughout a two-hour conversation about an ultimate ceasefire. And there are conditions that the Russians will need for an ultimate ceasefire because an ultimate ceasefire is complicated.

A, there's Kursk where Ukrainian troops are surrounded, fact, and the Russians. Kursk is within Russia. Kursk is within Russia. The Russians have taken it back. Yeah. And they've got people trapped there and the president doesn't want to see everybody getting killed. That's a significant battlefield condition

that has to be dealt with. But on top of that... Does that acknowledge, like I don't know if the New York Times is writing that story right now. I think it gets lost a little bit. First of all, I think a lot of these newspaper stories are, they're agenda driven. People start out saying I support the Ukrainians so I'm going to write the article in a certain way.

Look, we want to, I want to see Ukraine come out of this okay. I want to see Russia come out of it okay. Again, outcome oriented in this circumstance means that we need a deal that the Ukrainian people can live with. We have to sell it. There's going to be various Senate approvals that we may need here. And that's the political system we're in, that we're going to want everybody to be, in some respect, satisfied. So we're going to want the Russians to be satisfied in some respect. We're going to want the Ukrainians to be satisfied in some respect. We're going to want the Ukrainians to be satisfied in some respect. We're talking to the Europeans. When I say satisfied,

feeling that we came out of this thing, okay, with a deal that everybody can live with. I think that we have moved Russia in ways that no one thought was possible. So in the last conversation, they agreed to an energy infrastructure ceasefire, which means Russia is not going to target Ukraine's energy infrastructure and Ukraine will not target Russia's energy infrastructure.

They've never talked about that before. Here we are talking about that. They've never talked about reinstituting the Black Sea moratorium on maritime hits. Ukraine firing on Russian ships, Russia firing on Ukrainian hits. Ukraine firing on Russian ships, Russia firing on Ukrainian ships. Now we're down to, and that's going to be implemented over the next week or so.

There's some details that need to be discussed, but that became a part of that conversation. That's big stuff, really big stuff. What's the ultimate goal the ultimate goal is a 30-day ceasefire during which time we discuss a permanent ceasefire we're not far away from that but a 30-day ceasefire is something where we have to figure out what all the battlefield conditions are which is why I began with Kursk but Kursk is just the beginning of it because there's this 2,000 kilometer, that's 1,200 miles, this 2,000 kilometer border between Ukraine and

Russia where the Russian and Ukrainian troops are involved in, I don't know, 50, 60, 70, maybe 80 firefights throughout this border with all kinds of different conditions. Putin asked me in the meeting, what should I do in a particular area where we have people surrounded and they don't want to give up? Do I kill them? How do I get them to give up? I'm happy not to kill everybody. I'm happy to get people to wave the white flag if I can get them to wave the white flag. And that one situation, Steve, this is him talking, Putin talking to me, is just one example of 70, 80, 90 different situations out there along this border. Each one having different battlefield conditions, each one needing a separate conversation.

That's what has to happen for a ceasefire. And yet we're talking about it. That's a big, big deal. Our technical teams are going to be meeting in Jeddah beginning Monday. That's a big deal. There's all kinds of good positive talk coming out of Russia about their willingness to consider all of these different things. And Zelensky had a wonderful conversation with the president after the president Putin's conversation the next day. And I think that indicates that they've got some degree of flexibility in the way that they've been thinking about finishing up this conflict. So I am not to sound like a forever optimist, but I am very, very optimistic that we're

going to be able to bring the two sides together. We have narrowed the issues so considerably. So I'm optimistic. Time for another True Life Alp story. I got a call from a friend of mine yesterday, honestly, true story, who said his girlfriend had just broken up with him over Alp. He wouldn't stop. And I thought to myself, that's kind of sad. And he said, no, it's not sad. Imagine if I'd married her. Now I know I was saved. Then the next day, this same friend is driving at twice the speed limit through a major American city, pulled over by a cop in a speed trap. Cop takes his license registration, goes back to the patrol car, runs him, comes back, looks in the window, and sees a tin of Alp on the dashboard.

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Email tellall at alppouch.com. Tellall at alppouch.com. Give us your AlpPouch.com. Tell all at AlpPouch.com. Give us your Alp story. This episode is brought to you by DAZN. For the first time ever, the 32 best soccer clubs from across the world are coming together to decide who the undisputed champions of the world are in the FIFA Club World Cup. The world's best players, Messi, Haaland, Kane, and more are all taking part.

And you can watch every match for free on DAZN starting on June 14th and running until July 13th. Sign up now at DAZN.com slash FIFA. That's D-A-Z-N.com slash FIFA. So Russia, Putin, who's been in power 25 years, has been consistent for the whole duration of his presidency in one demand, which is that NATO stop encroaching on its borders and specifically that Ukraine, which is the largest country that borders remains the central demand, period. No Ukraine and NATO can't have peace without that. In the same way that Israel doesn't want Hamas in its border. They don't want that. Can the U.S. deliver that? Well, first of all, I think the largest issue in that conflict are these so-called four regions, Donbass, Crimea,

you know, the names, Lugansk, and there's two others. They're Russian speaking. There have been referendums where the overwhelming majority of the people have indicated that they want to be under Russian rule. I think that's the key issue in the conflict. So that's the first thing. When that gets settled, and we're having very, very positive conversation. And Russia controls that. In fact, some of those territories are now, from the Russian perspective, part of Russia. Correct.

That's correct. But this has always been the issue. Right. And it's sort of no one wants to talk about it. That's the elephant in the issue. And it's sort of no one wants to talk about it. That's the elephant in the room. The elephant in the room is there are constitutional issues within Ukraine as to what they can concede to with regard to giving up territory.

The Russians are de facto in control of these territories. The question is, will they be, will the world acknowledge that those are Russian territories? Will it end up, can Zelensky survive politically if he acknowledges this? This is the central issue in the conflict. Absolutely that. On NATO, I think that Zelensky and he's got a right-hand guy, Yermak, I think that they've largely conceded that they are not going to be a member of NATO. There's been all kinds of talk about whether they could still have, quote-unquote, what is called Article 5 protection. Right.

Which gives every NATO country has this Article 5 protection, whether Ukraine could have that in some respect from the United States or European nations without being a member of NATO. And I think that's open for discussion. But I think it's accepted that Ukraine, if there's going, and Russia, if there's going to be a peace deal, Ukraine cannot be a member of NATO. I think that's largely accepted. So you spent sort of an amazing story that got downplayed in the media, but you go to Moscow and then you wind up meeting directly with Putin for a long time. Long time. Which is kind of remarkable, I think, considering you're the president's envoy, but you're not. I'm not the president.

You're not the president's envoy, but you're not. I'm not the president. You're not the president. Exactly right. So the Russians are very formal, as you know. In every regard, they're very formal. And so you can imagine a scenario where it's like, well, it's not the president, so our president's not going to meet with him, but he did meet with you for a long time. What did you think of him? I liked him.

I thought he was straight up with me. Of course, by the way, I've said that. And you can imagine, by the way, I say that I get pilloried. Oh, my gosh. You're actually saying that you like the guy. Every American president until Biden has said that. Every single one. Bill Clinton said that.

George W. Bush said that. Barack Obama said that. Every president around the world I've ever spoken to is like, they may disagree with what Russia's doing or whatever, but they're like, you know, Putin's a straightforward guy. First of all, I thought it was gracious of him to accept me. Yeah. To see me. Why would I interpret it any other way? But that was gracious.

Now, I'm an emissary of the president. Yes. And the president had a great relationship with Vladimir Putin in his first term. So I think Vladimir Putin knew that it was going to be hard for the president at this time to come over to Russia. I think they're going to meet in the coming months. But I think it was enormously gracious for him to accept me. And I need to acknowledge that. It takes pulse to say that. I know. but by the way, that's the same way that I said that Sheikh Mohammed is a good guy. Well, he is a good guy. I mean, in our country, if you don't act like a lemming and just walk off the cliff like everybody else, then you get attacked.

By the way, how would we settle a conflict with a guy, with someone who is the head of a major nuclear power? Yeah. Unless we establish trust and good feelings with one another. I don't know how you would do such a thing. And President Putin said to me in the first meeting I had, he said, Steve, do you know that I didn't talk to joe biden for three and a half years it's craziness how would you resolve that talker can you imagine me and you having a conflict for i don't know what it was where you live in this house i live in that house okay i think you've encroached on my land and we never have a conversation about it i mean who how do you

resolve that's why i went over there last year because I thought we're moving toward a nuclear war. And I just feel like if no one's talking to Putin, someone should at least broadcast his views to the world because we could have a war otherwise. That was my thinking anyway. When I came back before the first meeting with President Putin, when President Trump said to me, go over and have that conversation. I think we're going to have a good, healthy conversation. Before that conversation, there was no talk about a Black Sea moratorium. There was no conversation about an energy infrastructure moratorium on hits, you know, between the two countries. We were not talking about prisoner exchanges and all kinds of other stuff. After one meeting, and I am saying to you, not because of me, because this was President Trump sending a signal to President Putin

that he wanted to resume his relationship together and that they were going to be two great leaders figuring out this conflict. That was the message. That was me coming there. That was my message to President Putin. I was directed by President Trump to deliver that message, that we were here to begin a real discussion, a productive discussion about how to end this conflict. And President Putin, to his credit, sent all kinds of signals back to the president that this is the path that he wanted to be on, including statements that he made. In the second visit that I had, it got personal. The president, President Putin had commissioned a beautiful portrait of President Trump from

the leading Russian artist and actually gave it to me and asked me to take it home to President Trump, which I brought home and delivered to him. It's been reported in the paper, but it was such a gracious moment and told me a story, Tucker, about how when the president was shot, he went to his local church and met with his priest and prayed for the president, not because he was the president of the United, he could be become the president of the United States, but because he had a friendship with him and he was praying president of the United, he could become the president of the United States, but because he had a friendship with him and he was praying for his friend. It was, I mean, can you imagine sitting there and listening to these kind of conversations? And I came home and delivered that message to our president and delivered the painting.

And he was clearly touched by it. So this is the kind of connection that we've been able to reestablish through, by the way, a simple word called communication, which many people would say, you know, I shouldn't have had because Putin is a bad guy. I don't regard Putin as a bad guy. That is a complicated situation, that war and the ingredients that that led up to it it's you know it's never just one person right so we're gonna i think we're gonna figure it out it's like a marriage i mean you know you can blame the other person all you want but you're implicated in it too so that's just a fact that's just it's human nature so it does raise the question everything you've said i don't think any fair person could everything you've just said about russia ukraine um any fair person would acknowledge yeah that's true but why there has to

be some reason that none of this has been acknowledged for three and a half years like why the effort to prevent americans from hearing the other side from understanding the conflict in its totality not just parts of it but but the whole thing. Like, why the censorship designed to keep us from knowing what's actually happening? Because that's what we've been enduring. Oh, I know. Censorship. Yes.

We've been enduring a media that, you know, they all march together. I mean, I told you the story. I give interviews about President Trump, and guess what? All the nice things I give interviews about President Trump, and guess what? All the nice things I have to say about him because I believe in that, that sort of gets excised out of my interviews. Not with you, I know, because you're a fan too. I'm a great fan of his, so you hear it.

But guess what? Trump derangement syndrome still exists out there today. I don't, you know, he said it at the State of the Union. If I came here, and he was looking at the Democrats, if I came here, I had the cure for cancer, and I could, and I had a magic pill that would cure all conflicts all over the world, nobody would cheer for me on your side. And it really, it really is true, by the way. Look, look at how all the different things he's involved in now. I mean, we are out there curing and solving conflicts all over the world.

It's unbelievable. No one's ever seen this sort of progress before. And the Russians want to engage with us once again because we have a real decision maker. Iran is now responding to the letter. Hopefully, we can solve that. Gaza, Turkey, we've got real leadership. And the world needed leadership. And we were bereft of that leadership.

We didn't have it. And the Trump administration is moving forward with strong leadership. It's a big deal. Do you think Zelensky, the question of Zelensky, I think there are good things to say about Zelensky. I think he's got a kind of bravery, which I admire. I think the Ukrainian military is legit brave, doomed, because they're sort of just fighting a much bigger country, you know, it's not going to win. But I think they've behaved with, you know, valiance. But the Russian position is he's not elected. And so we can't sign any kind of treaty with him. Do you think there will be elections in Ukraine? Yes, you do.

There will be. Yeah, they've agreed to it. There will be elections in Ukraine. And I agree with you. I think Zelensky is trying his best. I think he's in a very, very difficult position. But he's up against a nuclear nation. And he's also up against a nation that has four times the population that he has. And so he's got to know that he's going to get ground down. Now is the best time for him to get a deal done. President Trump can deliver him the best possible deal he's's going to get ground down. Now is the best time for him to get a deal done. President Trump can deliver him the best possible deal he's ever going to get. I blame Zelensky, the man for his behavior in Washington a few weeks ago,

but I also blame whoever briefed him before he went into the Oval with the president and vice president. Whoever told him to act that way, and it's clear people did, whether it was Samantha Power or whoever it was, those people, I mean, that was criminally bad advice. Do you think he's speaking to realistic, clear-eyed people who can, you know, who have the welfare of Ukraine in mind? So, without getting into names, I've talked to multiple European leaders. And I've said to them, the more you encourage him not to be proactive at the peace table, the more you suggest that aid will continue without any conditions attached to it. No one says that we shouldn't aid Ukraine today and in the reconstruction later on, but it's got to come with certain conditions. If we're going to give a lot of money to Ukraine,

we want to hear the business plan of how this is going to get resolved, because it's an unsustainable business plan if they don't have a plan for how it gets resolved we just can't forever give money um for uh because they'll get ground down and ultimately and this is you know me and we've discussed this in the administration ultimately what you can have here is risk of any kind of nuclear action even the tactical nuclear action i mean even if it even if it's not a big bomb explosion, just a tactical nuke would take stock markets down all over the world.

Well, they haven't been used in 80 years. They've been used exactly twice in human history. You can't allow it to happen. It's not a precedent you want at all. And while I think we have to get a fair deal for Ukraine, we cannot allow that country to drag us into World War III. And that's not my policy.

That's President Trump's policy. Then what is, if I can just say, like, what the hell is going on with European League? Keir Starmer saying we're going to send British troops, their entire military is smaller than the U.S. Marine Corps. The country is dying economically. All those countries are dying economically. Like, what are they thinking? What is is that a posture is it a pose well i think i think it's a combination of a posture and a pose and a complex and a combination of also being simplistic i think there's this you know this sort of notion of uh we've all got to be like like winston churchill the russians are going to march across europe i i think that's preposterous by by the way. We have something called NATO that we did not have in World War II. Do you think the Russians want to march across Europe?

A hundred percent not. Right. I feel like, why would they want that? I wouldn't want those countries. Like, why would they? First of all, why would they want to absorb Ukraine? For what purpose? Exactly.

They don't need to absorb Ukraine. That would be like occupying Gaza. Why do the Israelis really want to occupy Gaza for the rest of their lives? They don't. They absorb ukraine that would be that would be like occupying gaza why do the israelis really want to occupy gaza for the rest of their lives they don't they want stability there they they don't they don't want to deal with that but the russians also have what they want they've gotten they've reclaimed these five regions they have crimea and they've gotten what they want so why do they need more he said putin is a very smart guy you know someone said to me that someone, I was talking to someone in the administration. They said, well, you got to watch it because he's an ex-KGB guy. So I said, okay, what's the inference?

Well, he's an ex-KGB guy. He could be looking to manipulate you. Says the ex-CIA guy to you. Sorry. This was not an ex-CIA guy. Well, they all are. But effectively, and I said, look, here's how I

see it. In the old days, the only people who went into the KGB were the smartest people in the nation. That's who went into the KGB. He's a super smart guy, okay? You don't want to give him the credit for it? That's okay. I give him the credit for it. They must hate you for saying stuff like that.

But he is. I know. I'm very aware. So should we ignore it? I mean, and this is what I talk about with level setting the facts. Like, are we now, like Trump was elected. We're now allowed to speak freely. We were not, you know, we were muzzled, Tucker. No one was allowed to say what they really wanted to say.

Oh, I'm very aware. I mean, we just came out of a world where a judge who was not even an elected judge could tell a man that he was going to spend 10 years in prison, you know, and he had 80 million votes in this country. Guess what? That's gone. Okay. So, you know, listen, we can breathe again. Yes. That's amazing. So there is, okay, so there's the negotiation that's going on between, you know, in Eastern Europe between Russia and Ukraine, which you're obviously at the center of.

But there's also an informal negotiation going on back in Washington where you have a lot of people with, you know, economic interests in this war. I mean, let's just be honest. Certainly ideological interests. And all of Washington has been mobilized to fight Russia. We are at war with Russia through our proxy Ukraine. And President Trump shows up and is like, applies the brakes, like stands on the brakes. Is that going to get resolved? I think so.

You do? I think so. Yeah. It's one thing to deal with the Russians, but to deal with the permanent bureaucracy, that's really tough. But who doesn't want to have a world where Russia and the United States are doing collaboratively good things together? Exactly. Thinking about how to integrate their energy policies in the Arctic. Exactly. presidents being able to talk to one another about Iran, where Russia has some degree of influence. I mean, who doesn't want to see a world like that? To me, it's so logical. I passionately want to see a world like that. Not for any weird agenda other than,

that sounds great. Like, why wouldn't you want that? Exactly. But nobody wants that in Washington. Well, I think this is the thing. People get wedded, you know, to a prescription because that was what they endorsed before and it's hard for them to back off of it. Yes, it is. But you seem confident that the entire permanent establishment in D.C.

And they're not all stupid, by the way. Some of them are very smart and highly motivated. They can be brought around to that view. Well, look at the progress that we've made in Russia. We've made tremendous progress. It's nothing short of enormous. How in the world is that Putin looking to manipulate people like me or other people who may be negotiating with him? That's Putin actually reaching across the table and saying to President Trump, I'm prepared to do these things.

And now the president is accepting that and he's saying, let me tell you what I'm prepared to do. And he's prepared to bring Zelensky into the conversation. And he talks to Macron and he talks to Starmer and he talks to the Norwegians and the Finnish. I think none of these people have been talking together before. Can you imagine a war that's been going on for three and a half years? No one was talking. This is what went on. It's insanity. I know. And by the way, it was inexorably marching toward nuclear conflict. Had to be. Had to be.

That's exactly right. Or the Russians would have just ground them down conventionally. Either way is a bad outcome for Ukraine. That makes no sense either. The Russians outstripped them four to one in population. They either would have ground them down over time or God forbid, you could have had some kind of tactical nuclear issue. Yes.

Which would have been a disaster for the world. Because as you say, we haven't had one for 80 years. It's so, I can't tell you, I'm not sucking up. I mean this. I can't tell you how refreshing it is to see someone, hear someone tell the truth, obvious truths, and I do think it makes a huge difference to say the truth out loud. Well, I think it's important to say the truth out loud. That's what we weren't allowed to say. Yeah. I went to his criminal trial quite often. I would walk out of the criminal trial. You would see all the reporters from MSNBC, CNN, sort of like glaring at me, Tucker, almost as if to say, why would you come here? I mean, can you just imagine?

We were living in a society of you're innocent until proven guilty, but the president had been convicted already. Well, you know what? That wasn't good enough for me. I spoke about the president, how I felt about him, my friendship with him, how I thought that trial was unfair. I testified for him in the AG trial. I led an amicus curia brief. Nobody was doing it in those days. Everybody was afraid. I just think we need to level set the facts and understand what the true conditions are out there. The true conditions in Russia is that it's complicated, and Ukraine. It's a complicated conflict. They've been at each other since World War II. There's a sensibility in Russia that Ukraine is a false country, that they just patch together in this sort of mosaic, these regions.

That's the root cause, in my opinion, of this war, that Russia regards those five regions as rightfully theirs since World War II. And that's something that nobody wants to talk about. Well, I say it out loud how are we going to solve this thing unless we solve the un the the central issue that depends the conflict the khrushchev kind of just made those part of ukraine correct yeah i think khrushchev was ukrainian um amazing i just have to ask you this just so you were uh you were the with the then candidate trump at the trials. Then you're on the road with him.

I saw you. You're traveling with him everywhere during the campaign. And you're a very old friend of his. And he trusts and he also likes you. So at that point, you can kind of have any job you want. That's the way it works. But you didn't want any job. Well, it would be arrogant for me to say that I could have any job I wanted.

Well, but okay, but you're better positioned than anyone else I'm aware of to get a job at the administration, but you weren't there scrambling to get one. Well, I wanted if I, you know, the president, there's a lot of people who did good things for him during the campaign. But that doesn't necessarily mean that doing those good things transfers over to you being able to be a part of an administration and govern. So I never wanted to presume that I could have any job that I wanted. I think that would almost be disrespectful to my friendship. Yes, that's my outside assessment. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. Listen, I know you're a very good friend of the president's too.

So you understand. You didn't seem anxious to be friend of the president's too, so you understand. You didn't seem anxious to be secretary of whatever. I guess that's my point. No, I didn't want to do those jobs, actually. I wanted to do something that felt worthy to me, that felt like I was going to help to either save lives, solve a crisis. I talked to Jared at great length, you know, about what it was like for him to work in the Mideast. I just began to feel that that would be something very worthy for me to do. Now, I underestimated the complications in the job. That's for sure. I think I was a little bit quixotic in a way that I thought about it. Like, I'm going to roll in there on a white horse. And no, it was anything but that, you know. But I'm so glad he gave me this opportunity. Yeah.

I think I tell him, I think he's sort of like, he gets embarrassed when I tell him this, Tucker. I say to him all the time, you blessed me when you gave me this job. He did. I think he blessed me. I get to feel like my life has consequence now. I get to do things on behalf of other people, something bigger than just doing something on behalf of myself. So it's really a big deal. Not many people get that chance over 60. That's pretty unusual. I don't know if many people get that chance at all. No, you're right. And I'm

so lucky, you know. So before the end of my life to be able to do this, I'm so grateful to him. So one last question area, which is Iran, which unfortunately I sidetracked around it. But you said when I asked, what is the government of Israel's plan for the region? What are the borders it hopes to solidify at some point? Like what are the boundaries of the country, et cetera said your first response was it's we need to solve for iran like that's

that's the issue that overhangs everything there's enormous pressure on the u.s on the trump administration from within and from outside to have a military conflict with Iran. I know that. The president doesn't seem, that's not his first, this is my read, if he wanted that, we'd already have it. He seems to want a diplomatic solution first. He wants to try that first. Yes. That's fair?

That's fair. Do you think that that's achievable? Yes. I do. I do. Look, he sent a letter to the Iranians. Usually, it would be the Iranians sending a letter to him. Remember, the Iranians' air defenses have been eviscerated in that attack from Israel.

They're open to attack today. Yeah. They're a small country compared to ours. We could, I think we would, if we used overwhelming force, it would be very, very bad for them. And so you wouldn't, and this is not a threat. I'm not threatening. That's, so if the Iranians ever listened to this broadcast, this is not me issuing a threat. It's the president who has that authority. He would issue. But you're describing the reality as you understand it.

Correct. Yeah. So under those circumstances, it would be natural for the Iranians to reach out to the president to say, I want to diplomatically solve this. Instead, it's him doing that. Now, I can tell you that he's not reaching out because he's weak, because he is not a weak man. He is a strong man, maybe one of the strongest men I've ever met in my life. Maybe the strongest man I've ever met in my life. Actually, I think at that point, I think he is that person that whatever you think of Donald Trump, even Trump haters would have to acknowledge that's kind of indisputable at this point.

Yeah, he's he is a strong man. And I'm going to say this, the strongest man I've ever met. So with that all said, he wrote that letter. And why did he write that letter? For people who aren't aware of that, can you just roughly describe what it said? It roughly said, I'm a president of peace. That's what I want. There's no reason for us to do this militarily. We should talk. We should clear up the misconceptions. We should create a verification program so that nobody worries about weaponization of your nuclear material. And I'd like to get us to that place because the alternative is not a very good alternative. That's a rough encapsulation of what was said, roughly.

And the president has said that. He's said that, so I'm not telling you anything top secret or anything of that sort. The Iranians have reached back out. And I'm not at liberty to talk about the specifics, but clearly through back channels, through multiple countries and multiple conduits, they've reached back out. I think that it has a real possibility of being solved diplomatically, not because I've talked to anybody in Iran, but just because I think logically it makes sense that it ought to be solved diplomatically. It should be. I think the president has acknowledged that Iran, that he's open to an opportunity to clean it all up with Iran, where they come back to the world and be a great nation once again and not have to be sanctioned and being able to grow their economy. Their economy, I mean, these are very smart people. Their economy was once a wonderful economy. They're being strangled and suffocated today. There's no need for that to

happen. They can join the League of Nations and we can have a better relationship and grow that relationship. And that's what he's presenting. That's the alternative he's presenting. I think he wants to deal with Iran with respect. He wants to build trust with them if it's possible. And that's his directive to his administration. And hopefully that will be met positively by the Iranians. I'm certainly hopeful for it. I think anything can be solved with dialogue by clearing up misconception and miscommunication and disconnects between people. I believe that, by the way. And yet, and the president is a president who doesn't want to go to war, and he'll use military action to stop a war. That's when he

actually wants to use military action. In this particular case, hopefully it won't be necessary. Hopefully we can do it at the negotiating table. I hope for our sake you wind up in Tehran. I hope I do too or someone else from the administration. This is a little bit more complicated this one because it's nuclear and we're going to need some real technical. You know, it's just a little bit more complicated. But I think it'll begin with someone from the president's team. It could be me. It could be me and other people.

It could not be me and somebody else. But I am going to welcome that opportunity if I'm involved. Amazing. Steve Witkoff, Godspeed. Thank you. Thank you, Tucker. Thanks for having me. We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people. While you're here, do us a favor, hit follow and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. We have real conversations, news,

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