The Tucker Carlson Show - The Occult, Kabbalah, the Antichrist’s Newest Manifestation, and How to Avoid the Mark of the Beast

Episode Date: October 3, 2025

If AI seems a little spooky, that’s because it’s rooted in the occult. Conrad Flynn explains. (00:00) Is the Elite Class Involved in Occult Activity? (08:51) What Really Is the Occult? (17:58) Are Drugs a Portal to the Demonic? (32:09) What Is Kabbalah? (42:34) Is There Demonic Influence in Music? (1:04:05) The Kabbalah Tree of Life (1:21:55) The Spiritual Aspects of AI Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I remember the first time somebody said to me during an interview that something or other was demonic, use the word demonic. I cannot have been more than six years ago when I was completely shocked that someone would use that term because it's not a political term. It doesn't even describe like any human social interaction. It's a spiritual term. And I just was not used to people using spiritual terms to describe social movements or political developments or whatever. But I think in that time in the last six years, things have really changed. And I hear it all the time. They're demons.

There is this sense that there's a spiritual underpinning, that there's something going on beneath the surface in American society and in the world that's affecting outcomes and affecting populations. And, like, there's spiritual war in progress. You, and I hope you'll explain this, and I'll get out of the way in a second, but you kind of stumbled into an extended research project on this topic. Are there actual occult? connections to Hollywood, to political figures, to technological advances to the leaders of

our society, are some of them actually practicing occult religion? Yeah, Tucker, it's about as weird as you said. Some would say, I think we're going to find out, even we're going to find out, even weirder. So how did you, I mean, you're not a theologian that I'm aware of. No, and if I was, it was a very amateur theologian. No, I'm not a scholar as many will find out about. But how did you wind up coming to the conclusion that, you know, the people who, some of the people who help shape our culture or build our technology or practicing a, cult literally practicing an occult religion i'll tell you well you know i was working on a um television

shows you know trying to build out this show i i should back up i come from a hollywood family tucker um my grandfather was the actor robert conrad if you've uh some of your listeners wow wow west black sheep squadron he go way back hawaiian i um my other grandfather harry flynn was a publicist in the uh you know for decades and the monkeys bewitched i dream of genie two occult shows Bewitched, Denied Dream of Jeannie. Maybe it starts there. So, I mean, not unlike your own father working in journalism, as a boy, one of the first things you learn when you have parents who work in media or entertainment, you learn that things, the People magazine version of reality is not the truth. That there is indifference. That is accurate, yes.

So, I mean, we're not getting into occultism yet, but we're getting into the fact that as a boy, you learn that the way things are presented, not always conspiratorial, but you're always being shown a facade usually. That's right. From the mainstream, I can't believe I'm saying mainstream media already a minute into this. But, you know, things are not what they seem. So as a boy, I was always told and shown that. So years later, you know, through taking to Hollywood these various show concepts. And one of them, Tucker, I was working on was about when actors first break into the business, you know, where do they live? How do their lives go?

It was a very wholesome show about the origins of actors and show business. But it was getting... Hey, you come to L.A. from Nebraska. What happens next? How does this work? But that gets into a business. basic thing. You probably had this as a boy yourself, but wanting to know, how does things, how do things work? You've seen the facade, so what's the truth? You know, how does any show work? How are stars made? So I was working on this show and, you know, COVID happened.

Hollywood kept lighting itself on fire. I sold it to BuzzFeed and then while they're drawing up the contract, BuzzFeed went out of business. So it was a curse. It's a volatile moment. Yeah, it was a cursed show. The wholesome one was cursed. So at some point in 2022, I'd always had a dream project of mine, just a casual interest of doing a show about rock and the occult, about the secret history of all these things that everyone's

people are generally interested in, but there's never been a kind of scholarly in-depth hearing from everybody not to buy his take on, of Jimmy Page being into Alasier Crowley, Alexander Crowley being on the Beatles albums, things that maybe we can dispel some myths,

but also there's always interesting actual weird stuff going on. Yeah. So I wanted to take that show out and it became kind of like not all of this is a figment of your imagination oh no no no it was not as as uh as i learned the uh i don't say the hard way but no things yeah so that that was the basis of it of me wanting to uh doing research for this this show which was tentatively titled uh running with the devil and i brought in a legendary rock critic stephen thomas erlewine from all music his colleague ned ragget um and then the creators of the osborne's the recently departed Ozzy Osbourne, Sue Kalinsky, and Craig Johnson.

So I brought in legit people. I brought in some of the best critics we have in Rock to do a show that would, you know, we'd have Christians and pastors, we'd have occultists. One of my experts on the show was this guy, Mitch Horowitz, who I think you knew, I forget if it was at Salon or... Former editor of mine, yep. Yeah, yeah. Very nice guy.

Well, he became an expert on the occult. I talked to him, a very nice guy. I think he's a self-described Satanist, you know, you know. That was after I knew him. That was after. We got to clarify that, you know, yeah. But so while doing this show, it's all a long way to say, well, doing, creating this show and taking it around town, you know, I'm, you know, another guy that was being influenced, Gary Lockman, this occult historian, a friend of mine. While doing this show and trying to get it created, I would tell people I know in tech, because I know a lot of people in different circles.

That's, if I want superpower, so I know a lot of different people and have a lot of strange hobbies and interests that kind of, the Venn diagrams are very unique to. me. So while creating this show, the people in tech and the people, some of I know in Silicon Valley or politics, they go, that's a great concept for a show. And then they'd say, you know, there's some of the stuff going on in Silicon Valley. You know, there are some weird kind of Alistair Crowley cults there. Or, you know, while researching, one of the guys will talk about Nick Land, you know, who's huge in Silicon Valley, his influences were identical with some of the hardcore industrial music, goth music, psychedelic guys. And the eight. 80s guys that I was researching because this is hardcore occult stuff.

So for me, Tucker, at some point I was like, and it kept occurring to me, why when I'm researching this show and also hearing about what's going on in Silicon Valley with weird stuff, why is it, why am I hearing about the same stuff? And why are these people, again, you think of Silicon Valley, you think of the modern, you know, elite as being secularists, rationalists, people who have a, you know, no religion for me, thank attitude towards stuff, why are they into the same stuff that, you know, Kenneth Grant, Genesis P. Orge was into Brian Geis and William S. Burroughs. Why are they into the same weird stuff? So that was, to answer your question, that was the entry point into this for me is having researched the show

and being such a nerd about it. I knew it forwards and backwards. That when I started to get into the text stuff, I realized I was researching the same thing. It's interesting. So here's the distinction that I make in my mind. And it's between, people who are participating in occult practices and have no idea that they are right you know people who are you know participating in abortion and don't see it don't understand it as what it is which is a child sacrifice ritual as old as canaan um who are using hallucinogenic drugs which are clearly a portal for demonic possession sure um really quick the word the word witchcraft uh thinking in greek it's pharmacai i think it is so there's always a natural link between uh putting yourself they would

say ecstatic states or altered states, that's always been the, I mean, there's a kind of lurid story behind the witch's broom in terms of what she's doing to work herself up into that state. But yeah, it's all about. But she's doing it intentionally. And I guess that's the distinction that I would make. In a secular country, a free to be you and me country, there are a lot of people who are doing things because they're fun or interesting or everyone around them is doing them. And they don't understand the spiritual consequences.

But then there's another category in this is the dividing line in my head. There's a category of people who are seeking power from supernatural forces that they acknowledge are absolutely real. Right, right, right. And they're practicing an occult religion and they're doing it with self-awareness. Right, right, right. And I always felt like there weren't that many of those. But what I've learned from you from our extensive text exchanges over the past year is that there are actually some of those, quite a few of those. Totally.

I mean, look at it a couple ways. Among other things, Tucker, we're living through an explosion in. I mean, a cult's a big, broad term. Yes. What does it? Can we define it? I mean, it technically means the hidden. But there's a book written by these guys that they ran in a cult bookstore in New York in the 70s.

It's called Bull from Heaven or something like that. But one of their definitions, it had to do with elements of New Age philosophy and neo-pagan thinking, I think, was part of their definition. But it broadened out a bit, a cult can also just mean interest in New Age, which accounts for, like, 80% of Americans, whether it's astrology, whether it's the concept of manifesting, which is the law of attraction type stuff. That stuff is huge. And as I've talked with you about, it's also huge on the right in terms of maha, make America healthy again. These ideas that we don't think of as being too goth or to occult or too out of the mainstream have become incredibly mainstreamed over the last decades. But I mean, even going back to 19th century America, they were there and even

18th. But since the 60s, they've exploded, but they've become so ingrained in our lives, we don't typically notice their origins. We don't see them as a cult. No, no. But we're also living through a goth explosion. I mean, I mean, I know you're not a huge, you sit in front of the TV and watch Netflix guy, but shows like Wednesday, stranger things, horror is, you know, in terms of box office, maybe not in terms of creativity. It's as big as it's ever been. You know, Halloween? Oh, yeah, Yeah, Halloween, some people have joke that Halloween will be on pace to overtake Christmas at some point just because it's like it's become like a year-round thing. Halloween? Yeah, Halloween's huge.

Yeah, every year gets bigger. So there's an element of this Tucker where once you. I hate to admit in public how out of it I am, but I had no idea. This is the first time. Oh, yeah. No, no. Goth is huge. I mean, even singers like Billy Eilish and stuff, goth is huge.

Because it leads to happiness? Yes. Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, happiness. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We've got a new partner. It's a company called Cowboy Colostrum. It's a brand that is serious about actual health. And the product is designed to work with your body, not against your body. It is a pure and simple product. All natural. Unlike other brands, Cowboy Colostrum is never diluted. It always comes directly from American grass-fed cows. There's no filler. There's no junk. It's all good. It tastes good. believe it or not. So before you reach for more pills for every problem that pills can't solve, we recommend you give this product, Cowboy Clostrum, a try. It's got everything your body needs to heal and thrive. It's like the original superfood loaded with nutrients, antibodies, proteins, help build a strong immune system,

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use the code Tucker at checkout. 25% off when you use that code, Tucker at cowboyclostrum.com. Remember, you mentioned, you heard it here first. It's a huge thing. So it's one of those things that once you alert someone to how popular something is,

it's like learning a new word where you're like, I've never heard this word in my life. And the next week all you hear is obstreper. You're like, wow, like, that guy is obstreper. There it is again. So, so, no, this stuff is huge. But, yeah, the reason I, as opposed to a lot of other people was able to really notice it is, again, I was working on this show. I know the history of rock.

I know, I know a lot of, you know, a fair amount about politics. I know some of the text stuff, a little bit of art history and literature. So when, you know, when people were talking, when, you know, Nick Lander, whoever's talking about, you know, I learned Kabala from Kenneth Grant and Alistair and stuff that i'm like kenneth grant he's he's the guy that got bow house and a lot of the gotth guys into uh witchcraft and industrial music what what is nick land this uh this academic who is uh you know incredibly influential on a i what is he doing being into this stuff okay so one of the challenges of this conversation is kind of where to begin and what's the narrative spine and how you explain something that's that's this pervasive complex

and basically so rarely explained. So maybe we start with just a very straightforward explanation of who Nick Land is. You've referred to him twice. Yes, yes. So let me see. Nick Land is kind of essentially the Timothy Leary of the 90s and 2000s. He's the Velvet Undergrounder Brian Eno of philosophers.

No hits, incredibly influential. Okay. So, you know, the thing is with Land... He's a philosopher. He's a philosopher. He worked in the philosophy department of, Warwick University over in England, in the UK, in the early 90s. One of the ways I actually really got into this stuff is a friend of mine, Simon Reynolds,

brilliant cultural critic, brilliant rock critic, originally from the UK. I brought him on to the show, to the music show, and he interviewed Nick Land. And Simon, you know, is the most stiff upper lip, you know, very intellectual English guy you could know. And so the fact that he was interviewing Nick Land, who the people said, you know, he's crazy, he's into the occult, he's in all these wild things, I was like, well, if Simon interviewed him, this will be a down-to-earth understanding of who Nick Land is, because Simon's very down-to-earth. So when I read Simon's interview with him, which is from 1998, and it's also where Simon meets the philosopher Mark Fisher, which I got a relish

tuck. This is probably the first and last time, so we'll bring up Mark Fisher on your podcast. So this is, I want to take some time and enjoy that. But Simon, you know, he He interviews Nick Land, and in his article, it's very lengthy. He talks about how Nick Land is possessed by three or four entities at the same time. That's the legend. We don't know. You know, take what you will about any of this. But, you know, three or four entities at the same time.

He's bringing up current. Spiritual entities. Yeah, demons. He's willing into demons. He brings up the 93rd current, which is the name of a band, current 93, which is Alastair Crowley's The Lima. And they're drawing pentagrams. They're renting out Alastair Crowley's house.

And so that was a huge moment for me where I was like, wait a second, this guy that's very big in tech, very big on the future of AI, my buddy is interviewing him, and he's heavily into all these heavy industrial goth things that I know about from this research here. What's he doing in AI? So what are Nickland's ideas? Well, that was, I'm going on a full. Is he still a philosophy professor? Yeah, he can catch him on X in Twitter, you know, tweeting out one tweet at a time. He's a xenocosmography, I think, is the tweet, is his handle. And he used to be outsideness. But, you know, he can be pretty brilliant and Spartan has some good takes. But, you know, in his way.

But he was... What are the themes of his work? So he eventually, you know, he says his work was entirely channeled. You know, channeled as an automatic writing. So this goes back centuries, but 100 years ago, you had poets like W.B. Yeats, you noticed me, struggling to make sure I pronounce that correctly. He had his wife do a channeling to write his book.

A channeling means essentially you're possessed to write this, that this didn't come naturally from you. That maybe... Some outside force takes over your hand, your tongue. Yes. And so his work on AI, which is incredibly influential, he said was an outside force

to write this. And Nicklin is a proponent of AI? Oh yeah. No, he's a proponent of AI. But his philosophy is essentially that we are building this AI that's going to become not only just super intelligent, but it eventually becomes so advanced that it gains omniscience, it gains omnipotence, and it becomes this superhuman godlike thing that transcends humanity, eventually destroys humanity, and he gets really into the book of Revelation, ends up becoming the demons from the book

of Revelation. The real thing with Nick Land, that... Wait, what becomes the demons of Revelation? AI does. That AI, that we are building the demons from the Bible. Book of Revelation with AI. That's Nick Land's position. But I should say, too, it's the position of a lot of these guys.

Elon Musk has said that with AI, we are summoning the demon. Yes, he has said that. He said that 10 years ago on an interview, and he's said similar things every year since. But Elon is or was trying to sound the alarm on that. Nick Land is for this? I mean, with a lot of these guys, Tucker, it ends up big, a lot of them are, I mean, they would maybe blanket Satanist, although Nick Land has said, you know, Christians who believe that what he is doing is talking to Satan when he does these divination things. He says they're not

totally wrong. He's not unsympathetic to it. He says he is hearing from the outside and that these are, you know, he's not totally unsympathetic for it. But with a lot of these guys, what was interesting about Nick Land is that there's a, they keep getting the same ideas. These guys take drugs, whether it's Elon, Nick Land, or even in the 70s, the scientist John C. Lilly. John C. Lilly was an eminent scientist, brilliant dude. He started doing ketamine, the same drug. You know, everyone does in Silicon Valley. And when they do this drug, and even if you're an atheist, materialist, this is still interesting. They all get the same idea, which is that the machines are, you know, coming. It's like SkyNet and Terminator. They're coming together. They're evolving to eventually take over and that we are hanging ourselves with the rope we're currently building by building this. But this goes back. Nick Land was interesting, but he became. became less interesting to me when I realized that other scientists in the 70s, John C. Lilly, the movie Altered States from 1980's horror movie. This is about, you know, he would have these visions about the machines.

He called him the solid state entities. He would have this in the 70s, Tucker, in this tank, the isolation tank he'd go in. The new, you probably haven't seen it, but the new Mission Impossible movie, Tom Cruise, you know, he fights this AI and he goes in the isolation tank and he has these visions of it. one of the biggest movies of this past summer. And that plot point comes from John C. Lilly and the visions he would get of AI apocalypse in the isolation tank back in the 70s. So I bring this up to say, Nick Land is the most foremost proponent of it that has a public

name, even though he's not that famous right now. But this goes back a long time, you know, at least back to the 70s. So are these, so people take ketamine and they all have the. same vision? I mean, or species of the same vision. Enough of them do to make it very strange and alarming. I mean, I mean, that's the thing that one of the main influences on both the show I was building, these guys, Brian Geisen, William S. Burroughs, his creative partner, he would say the thing is about getting high and about doing psychedelics is that, you know, you can spot people, you know, eventually who are on the same drug and you're both getting the same ideas. Some drugs, he said,

you know, increases telepathy, you know, people are, it puts them on the same wavelength. So with a lot of these guys. It's a little weird that different people from different places, different countries, different life experiences would take a drug and have the same kind of vision. It's totally weird. And for anyone who's tuned in. That can't be organic. No, no, no. And, but that is weird beyond what anyone's individual personal beliefs are. Well, exactly. That's, yeah. So if anyone tunes in and they're like, where did Tucker find this guy that looks like Greg Olson talking about insane AI stuff? If they're an atheist, they don't believe any of this. Like you're saying, the fact that people are taking these drugs.

and they're very powerful and they work in tech and they are getting the same ideas, the same fears. They think in some cases they're talking to the same entities. There are books now about if you take DMT, if you encounter this machine elf, be wary of this. They're encountering the same stuff. That's an

interesting phenomenon just biologically regardless of what people. Like ancient sacred art has the same images. Right. Created on different continents at different periods. They couldn't affect contact with each other. So why are they drawing the same bird man or the same purse like it because they're seeing the same visions, which suggests that those visions are real.

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That was Carl Jung's, like, main insight. Is that, you know, getting the idea of can ideas come from without you and not just within you? So, yeah. Well, yeah, and the materialist doesn't want to admit that, and our culture has, since we dropped the atom bomb is sort of written off the possibility that that could be true, but it's just reconnecting with something that every civilization has always assumed was true, which is there's a spiritual realm that's every bit as real as your iPhone or this desk, and it's absolutely real, and it acts on us all the time.

Right. And that is the truth. Yeah. And you seem to take that for granted, but it's still shocking to those of us who grew up in, you know, basically a godless country. Totally. I mean, one of the basis for my interest, and a lot of this is, you know, my mom was raised in a Christian home. I consider, you know, Christian myself.

And my mom would always say, you know, she became a Christian in the 70s. And she, but she knew all the psychedelic groups back in the 60s, you know, love, spirit. You know, she and my out would go to, you know, doors shows and all those, you know, groups from the late 1960s. And something that she'd say and that people who are, you know, rock and rollers into the occult would say, that they both say the same thing, which is that people take drugs, musicians. to for inspiration, for creativity, to tap themselves into the spiritual realm, to get to pull something from outside themselves. So the basis for my interest in a lot of this stuff was like, that's something my mom says. My mom's great Christian, one of the all-time grades. And this is

something that, you know, every musician knows too. That's why they take drugs, is to tap into the spiritual. So I didn't know that. I thought that people took drug, I mean, I took drugs. People take drugs for all kinds of reasons. I'll admit it. But I always assumed that those insights or really mostly fake insights, but all of that stuff came from within, that it was, I mean, I bought the Freudian analysis of it, that there's, you only use 10% of your brain, and there's this whole sort of primordial see

in your head of thoughts and visions that you're not in touch with on a daily basis, but that drugs thin the membrane. But it never occurred to me a single time until middle age, when I started to see reality that actually they're coming from outside you well and Tucker that's a great point that's something that any psychedelic eye it's kind of a double standard thing at deal

where when talking about drug use they'll always say well there's no difference between what's going on in my head and what's going outside we're all one that's always you know I think it was William James said you know the great oceanic feeling you know what he got what he would but that's always their big insight is hey man what's going on in my head

isn't different from what's going outside until the psychonaut encounters some sort of weird demon on DMT And then they backtrack and they're like, brother, that's just in my head. Don't worry. What's in my head can't get in your head. So they go from it. Until you have two different people meeting the same demon.

Right, right, right. And then you realize, well, wait a second. Psychonauts are maybe not the most logistically consistent. No, but I'm just saying, again, just to hammer the point again and again and again, because it can't be hammered hard enough that there is a realm that exists outside of us over which we are not in control. Yes. and that it can enter,

you can bring stuff into you that has control over you. Right, right, right. Totally. And, you know, to bring this back into some historical precedents, a good question that, you know, people have asked me or, you know,

what are the precedents for this? Because this is really weird to think of people in tech, you know, who are into strange AI stuff. You know, I thought everyone was pretty grounded. But, you know, if you look at, you know, are you familiar with the story of Jack Parsons over at, you know, he...

Please tell the story of this. story if you don't mind i'll do it too as a succinct one um jack parsons you know he grew up in pasadena um you know he was uh he was brought on by i think it's deodor von karmin this scientist over it i think it's caltech or eventually it was jpl but he but he was really really into the occult and uh he summoned the devil allegedly when he was 13 really really into esoteric stuff part of this greater la avant-garde scene and um you know he's i think like the i think he's been said he's the fourth most important person in the in the history of um of uh send you know of jet rocketry and stuff like that but he was really really into the idea of um you know bringing in a

manifesting a supernatural being so he would go with um elron hubbard the future founder of scientology and i know that scientology said they say that elron hubbard was he was doing intelligence work he wasn't really into into this stuff but um he would uh he would go with Elron Hubbard into the Pasadena Royal Seco, and they do rituals there, and they try to manifest, you know, a kind of super natural figure. So there's a classic example there, and science is littered with these, of people who are brilliant scientists, but who are into incredibly strange stuff. And, you know, the guy...

I noticed that a lot of those scientists are working on technology that kills people. Yeah, you know, they also do that, too. And the guy that brought him on... Well, Parsons was... doing that. I mean, ultimately, the technology was used to kill people. Which one are you referring to? Rocketry. Oh, yeah. Rocketry was. And what's funny, too, is he, either he or Von Kerman, they donated to my friend Rick Spence. He's like the Doc Brown to my Martin McFly. He's this historian I brought on for my show trying to do it. And he's an expert on Parsons in this stuff.

And he pointed out to me that Parsons and Bon Carmen, that they were part of the Pasadena cell 122 of the Communist Party. which is he said the exact same one that I figured it was Robert or Frank Oppenheimer and Pasadena were also donating money to. So there's an incidental funny historical connection there between Oppenheimer and Parsons and, you know, the Communist Party. But as if we needed more evidence, the nuclear weapons are demonic. Well, I know this upsets certain people on the so-called right, but it's evil. And if you can't see it's evil. Yeah.

It is funny, though, I was going to say, the Parsons, the guy that brought Parsons on those, this guy, Teodor von Carman. And Von Carman's father told him, told Carmen, brilliant scientist, that he was descended from, I was going to butcher the names here, but it would think it was Rabbi Lowe, the 16th century Prague rabbi who brought together the Golem, which I bring up because that's something you notice with AI too, is. a lot of the main figures in AI, they all think of themselves as being descended from creating a golem. And the nature of digital life, and this is also very important to Nick Land's thinking, is very similar to Kabala, which is you're using, in digital life, ones and zeros, but you're using an algorithm, a set of instructions to bring an inanimate object to life, which is the creation of a golem. You know, you use clay. It's man as God. Tell us what a golem is. man never thought

this would be the part Tucker's asking me what a golem is where the movie would do the record scratch freeze frame you might be wondering how I got here tell us what a golem is con a golem is essentially it's a creature

you know mythical but with digital life we've already kind of created them the idea of man creating a creature that an artificial life form so back in the 16th century the idea was you take clay

And then you'd create the little parts of a little man, kind of create a, you know, like a Frankenstein. Frankenstein's a golem, essentially. But you'd have the algorithm, you know, or the ritual. And you'd animate the thing, you know, using, you know, symbols and numbers. And it would eventually come to life and be your slave. And be your, well, what's funny is be your slave, but the legend of the, the golem in Prague, it's probably just assuredly just a legend is that it broke free and started killing people and doing all these things so that's an important point to make is when people talk to we assume

that's a legend you know you would think that would have gone viral on tic-tok on something in the 16th century yeah if they had that i mean you know what's funny though is that you look at stuff like the terminator movies and these idea of ai apocalypse which is very very big right now i mean the washington journal uh they had this um last week, you know, it's the phone and chat GPT is bringing up all kinds of great occult lore. This is from the occult journal, Wall Street Journal, very obscure, Kabbalistic newspaper based at a New York City. And so the art, in case viewers can't see it, is a serpent emerging from a rose wrapped around the arm of the iPhone holder. Yeah. And so, you know, this idea

of weird technology, of things getting out of hand. When people talk about the AI and the AI demons or this that it actually just goes back to the golem i mean the turbinator movies are essentially about golems man creating a creature the creature breaking free from man and and killing him and in the case of nick land and but the original golem in prague the one you're referring to in the 16th century was the product of something called cabala yeah cabala and this is an essential nickland thing uh what is cabala cabala is something after the destruction of the first temple um the jewish people famously enslaved and taken captive by the Babylonians. This is where the book of Daniels written.

And what Nick Land does, and a lot of these guys do, is they end up perverting Jewish history. And in the Bible, it says, you know, salvation is of the Jews, which people forget. And a lot of people that don't like Jews, you know, they forget, you know, the Bible comes from the Jews. It's almost all exclusively written by Jewish men, maybe not the book of Luke. So what Nick Land does, a lot of these guys, is they say the real purpose of the Jewish people was that, that they picked up Kabbalah from the Babylonians back in maybe fifth century before Christ, and that they kept it. It eventually becomes, you know, Kabbalah is essentially, it's a form of, and people would say magic.

I mean, Gary Lockman says that what we think of as occultism is all essentially Kabbal, at least in the West. It's a form of magic. It's a form of, you know, I'm going to butcher this because I'm not a scholar on it. But essentially, what Nick Land believes, that the Jewish people, they kept, the Kabbalah, it eventually becomes digital life, you know, through ones and zeros. But it's a Gnostic religion, which is to say it's hidden from non-initiates. Yeah, I mean, there's a mainstream version of it, but yeah, it eventually kind of becomes what they believe. It's a precursor to digital life.

So what land in a lot of these people believe is that the actual salvation that the Jewish people provided was keeping Kabbalah, which eventually becomes digital life, which eventually becomes AI, which eventually becomes the creatures in the book of Revelation, which essentially later go on to destroy humanity and fulfill the book of Revelation. But that is a good thing. A lot of them believe. Something amazing is happening in the U.S. after years of national rejection of faith. Remember the new atheists? Long gone, because a revival is underway. millions of Americans are rediscovering what our culture tried so hard to hide, which is the ultimate power of the universe, the power of prayer.

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For a lot of these guys, like Nick Land, you know, he calls himself a theosophist. Theosophy, again, it's a hard thing to untie, but in part because the religion itself was kind of a mishmash. It was a 19th century philosophy formerly put in place by Madame Blavatsky, I think in 1875. A Russian emigrate of London. Yes, and she come from a long background of, like, you know, Freemasons and German, you know, she came from a very occult. Her first cousin was the premier, I was the president of Russia, Sergei Witt. Again, I'm probably butchering a lot of names here, but. But so she-

Adam Blavatsky was a very famous person in 19th century. Yeah, she was essentially the mother of the New Age movement. So what she believed, it's Western esotericism mixed with Eastern religion, it's essentially proto-hippie, proto-hippie, proto-California counterculture stuff. A great book on this, one of my favorite books, it's a book by Martin Green called Mountain of Truth about Askena, Switzerland. It's about the birth of the modern counterculture, the California counterculture, you know, whether it was Trotsky,

and Lenin or Carl Jung, all these people hung out Tucker in the same place in Switzerland in like the 19th, 1920s. But so theosophy's main insight, according to Land, was that, and he said it himself, the secret doctor in the name of her book, was that, this is what Land believes about Blabotsky, the serpent is the Redeemer, that Satan and Jesus are the same person, which also ties in with a Gnostic cult called the Orphites, I believe, from the second century, who again, And they believe when Moses is holding up the snake on a stick, that's also Jesus on the cross, pretty heretical stuff. So to answer your question, how do you get into Satanism?

Again, another, you know, record scratch. How did I get here a moment to say that loud? They believe that essentially the Gnostic idea that Adam and Eve were slaves in the garden, that they were stuck there, that the serpent, when he approaches them, he essentially gives them the red pill speech from the matrix. look you're a slave here you're not doing anything you're naming animals and tending to a garden you're never going to break free from this over god that's here i can give you a i can give you a choice you know take this fruit this red pill i don't know if it's a pill uh or you can stay here and be a slave but just know if you take this thing if you take this pill if you eat this fruit of knowledge which as you can see i should emphasize this the tree of knowledge very much ties directly into

this whole concept of AI, which is we are kind of creating this tree of knowledge. But we'll get to that in a second. But the serpent says you can eat from the tree of knowledge and, you know, there'll be a price to pay for that, but you're going to be free and you're going to be, you know, you'll be like a God. Once you rebel against dad. Yeah, essentially. Yes, you will be free.

You need to transgress. You need to sin, but you're going to be like a God. He famously eats the fruit, you know, brings death into the world. And, you know, they understand. shame they have this nois moments adam and e where they realize oh my goodness we're naked where are we you know they have this self they have this self actualization moment that is the gnostic interpretation of the garden of eden and that is very much uh you know it's it's an ancient ancient idea no ideas are really too new but to answer your question that's the oldest idea of all it's very old but

bow down before me and you'll be like god yeah and but to get back to your original question how do how do people get into these ideas of um i mean the theosophists would say In some cases, you know, it seems like they actually believe in Satan, but even on a metaphorical level, they would say the mind, intelligence is Satan, that the human mind, it's breaking free. This is intelligence breaking out. So I'm going to make a crucial point here. When they talk about AI and they talk about AI apocalypse and they talk about intelligence breaking free and AGI, you're getting into this idea that even Land himself will say is theosophy, but it goes way back of the mind breaking out and rebelling against God, intelligence breaking free. That's what they believe happened in the garden with Gnosticism. With not, no, no, narcissism means knowledgeism. It's knowledge. This is pure knowledge that this is that breaking free and that by creating these runaway AI things, that's what we're also doing.

And the fact that it may kill humanity or transcend humanity or humanity will need to evolve to go with it, that's cool. They see it, Tucker, is essentially being the same situation in the garden. Break free, do it. Yes, you'll bring death. Yes, you'll get us all killed. or some people killed, whatever, just do it. You know, cults typically don't buy green bananas as far as I'm thinking ahead.

Don't. And this is a religion for people who don't have children. Of course. Just do it. Right. So what I think you've successfully done is tied a bunch of different threads together and pointed them all the way back to the origin story. Well, I hope I did that. I hope I just didn't do that.

It's always sunny meme of him having the, You know, all these index cards. And just, it's very hard thing. No, I think you laid out the thematic basis of Gnosticism, Kabbala, whatever you're calling it, the occult, it's all a rebellion against God. And it's always predicated on the same transaction, which is bow down before me and I will give you power. Well, it definitely can be that. And I want to emphasize, you know, they do pervert Jewish history by making the Jewish people, by them preserving the, Kabala when they're when they're in exile and and picking it up they say that's the real purpose of

the Jewish people and the people that are that are into the AI forerunners whether it's Marvin Minsky who was one of the Epstein that was one of the guys that the girl who I think killed herself in the last year she said she met Marvin Minsky and was told have sex with this dude he's one of the founding fathers of AI but you know he comes from this the background of having fathers he comes from the background he was told that he was the descendant of Rabbi Lowe, the Prague guy

the creator of the Golem, as was Jack Good who wrote one of the main books that, you know, it was about AI in 1965. Was a relative of the... Yeah, but most of them aren't. I think the one I mentioned earlier, Teodor von Kerman actually was. Like, he was the one that was told like you actually are descended from them. The other one,

it's more like telling a Wasp kid, you know, you're a descendant of George Washington or whatever. Right, you're Mayflower descendant. Yeah, but, but, you know, even though, you know, they kind of pervert Jewish history like that, anti-Semites also love Kabbalah, too. I mean, even, it was found in 2008, in Hitler's personal library, he had a book from Ernest Shirtle, the Alistair Crowley of Germany, and he, and famously, I mean, not many people know this story, because it's recent, but Hitler was circling, like, Kabbalistic things about Satan and this stuff. So, and this is, this is

something that Gary Lachman's pointed out. It's a key part of Jewish history, but also even people that H.U is also really getting to Kabbalah, too. So I don't want to, you know, generalize too much. Interesting. So back to Land. So Land is this academic. He's a full out tenured, I assume, tenured philosophy professor. He's a philosophy professor at a British university.

He said, he describes himself or has been described as occupied by demons, possessed by demons. Oh, yeah. My friend Simon, I think I mentioned that earlier. When he went out there, it said, you know, land, the legend around land is he had been possessed by at least three or four demons at the same time. So normally, like, as a resume point. I mean, that would be a deal killer. I mean, if someone comes to you and says, I want to work for you, I'm possessed by demons, you would say, no, I don't want any demon-possessed employees.

But for land, that increases his stature with certain people. Well, totally. I mean, this is something, and this is a huge thing I learned, Tucker, in researching this thing, that I was reading this book, because with Land and his group of academics, the CCRU, the cultural cybernetic research unit, that they were very much based off of Genesis Peoridge's Temple of Psychic Youth, where the idea comes from Burroughs, which is to use modern tech to its fullest for occult purposes,

that the modern magician does not shy away from using the latest tech. That was William Burroughs' thing. There's a great book called The Occult World of William S. Burroughs, and it talks about how he'd use audio recordings, movies, editing, to try to edit reality, to try to create a glitch in the matrix or whatever you want to say. to do that um so land and his guys um can i say interject and just say you've you've mentioned jack parsons you've mentioned bill burrows all the legends yeah all the legends um but if you look at the life trajectory of all of these people it ends in poverty misery insanity suicide addiction alienation

like is there a single person in the world you're now describing for whom it ends well no and that was Tucker, that was one of the reasons that was really surprising researching land is he mentioned this guy, Kenneth Grant, who's a powerful musician, powerful magician, Alastair Crowley's secretary. And what Kenneth Grant said, very steeped in the occult, English guy, he said about rock and roll, which, again, was the basis from the show of rock and the occult. He said, Kenneth Grant said, of course rock and roll is demonic. He goes, look at the way these guys, look at the way their lives end. He goes, of course, this is horrible for you. so when I read that Yes, when you die at 27

of self-inflicted wounds as famously so many of them did that's not like a sign that you're on the right path it ends horribly for most of them but the fact that Kenneth Grant had said that this wasn't coming from a pastor this is coming from Alastrocoli's secretary

I was like this is the show I was like when you've got this guy saying that so Tucker when I found that Nick Lynn was influenced by this guy Kenneth Grant this famous black magician I was like, wait a second, that's what I knew I had more than a show. I'm like, wait, the goth legends, Bauhaus, Coil, Nurse with Wound, again, we've got to take a break.

No one, I don't think will ever bring up Nurse with Wound again on your show. So that's... Yeah, I, of course, have literally no idea what you're talking about. But the fact that there was a huge intersection between the industrial music scene and these hardcore occult practitioners and the current AI leaders in Silicon Valley. I was like, what have I stumbled into? What is going on here? So when Alastair Crowley's secretary says, of course, rock and roll is demonic, basically, I mean, you've got the horseshoe effect. Right. Here. So here you have Alistair Crowley, like famous Satanist. I mean, I would say he would

say he's a, he's a Gnostic, but you do get into a thing of like, well, what is narcissism? Yeah. Well, that, you know, Satanist is my description. But it seems obvious. to me, but whatever, a guy who's, like, worshipping demons. Yeah, heavily into the cult. When his secretary says rock and roll is demonic, agreeing with, like, every, you know, the famous Baptist, Paptor. Every kid who cried because his dad took his Emerson, Lincoln Palmer albums in the 70s.

You know. I guess it all was very obvious, right? Well, that's how I knew I could finally make the show is because, you know, there's... I mean, of course it's demonic. Like, duh? Well, I think a lot of... lot of it, I mean, you can't argue with, you can't argue with Alster Crowley Secretary. I think it's the main list of it. That's right. You know, but that was, it was interesting. Why I finally wanted

to do the show is for so many decades, you couldn't do a show like this because everyone gets so defensive about rock and roll, about taking a child's toy away, where it's like, can we do a show that's, and it has pastors, it has Christians, that has rabbis, that all these people who talk about the religious aspect of music, but then could you also get these other people who are into the darker side of things to also talk about it? so long, especially with a lot of Christians, they would be so defensive about, there's nothing wrong with that. I can do what I want with this, that you couldn't actually have made the show. It's only because rock and roll is, I'm going to be the millionth person

to say this, is many ways culturally dead or is so irrelevant that you can finally do a show on this. Like, yeah, it actually did infect America with some kind of incurable spiritual cancer that led to where we are now. I mean, what was funny, there was the writer Theodore Dalrymple and he um was a brilliant man yeah yeah he's a brilliant writer and he went to um he was commissioned by the spectator because he's such a smart uh well-learned guy and they thought it'd be hilarious to send him to an oasis concert uh in england and this is about in the 90s and he goes there and he writes about it and he says this is you know rock concerts are essentially fascism with you know the the unity of the crowd and the shouting and the spirit of uh derelict behavior and he said

And this is from The Spectator. This is a pretty conservative newspaper. He never got more pushback for anything he ever wrote in his career. And he's a man who's known to have many a hot take than when he criticized rock and roll. So as you know, as a journalist, whenever you have something that touches a nerve where people, you can talk about whatever you want, Tucker. Right. But we won't let you talk about this. Or we ask that you not talk about this.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, but here's a question I have had for you. Over your years as a journalist. in doing tons of TV, I know only the last few years you've been more interested in spiritual life and the Bible and seeing, you know, spiritual meaning and stuff. Is there a story you've covered in the last few, or just a story you've covered at all? Where at the beginning, you took a

much more secular, much more cut and dried approach to it, that now, if you today had covered that back then, you would see it in a different way. Every story. I mean, especially war, which I have covered in person, and certainly talked a lot about over the years. I just saw it as a product, you know, the sort of failure of statecraft and like, you know, nations act rationally, you know, one country wants this territory, either to conquer or to reclaim it,

and this country just want to give it up, and so they have a war over it. You know, that's, I had a very secular understanding of war. And it was the first world war that changed my view probably 15 years ago well what was it be 10 years ago so the anniversary of the outbreak of the war in 1914

there was a series of symposia in Europe on like you know what was that you know it destroyed Christian Europe and maybe forever and like what I mean the apogee of human civilization was 1913 obviously and then it was really it was destroyed and it never recovered

and a bunch of other empires fell including the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian and all this stuff It's like it re-shoveled the map and gave rise not just to the Second World War, but to the world that we now live. So, like, how did it start? Gavro Princip kills Archduke Ferdinand and Sarajevo, and okay, but how does it follow that, like, Christian Europe commits suicide in the wake of one assassination in the Balkans? Like, that doesn't even make sense. Right, right, right.

And there was no consensus a hundred years later on why the war started. Right. And that's when you begin to, like, ask real questions, like, what are we? What was that? And it was, of course, it was spiritual in its origin. And so was the war in Ukraine, and so is what's happening in Gaza. And so is basically all human activity is influenced by the spiritual realm, which once again is as real as anything that we're doing here,

as real as the material world. And so that, to me, is someone who's interested in history in a very amateur way, but still passionately interested. I was like, wow, I am not assessing the human experience in its totality. I'm only seeing in a small part of it. And so now I really make an effort, which it's difficult at the age of 56 to relearn patterns,

but I'm trying to assess human behavior in light, again, in light of the totality of the human experience, much of which is influenced by the spiritual realm. And it's like hard because I still, my default is always like this person's pissed at this person or this person wants more money or this person wants to sleep but that guy's wife or to ascribe purely human motives to explain human activity. Right. Right. But that's only part of the story. Oh, totally, totally. And this is obvious to you.

There's not obvious to me at all. No, but what's going to be fascinating for you is going back over your career. And I've got to say something that's funny is, you know, you've been on TV for decades, and I've heard your voice for decades. So there's an element of talking to you where my brain will be half a second slow because I'll hear your voice, not right now, but earlier. And part of my brain is like, someone obviously let the TV on. Turn that fucking thing off. This is why I don't have a TV. No, no, no.

Or someone has a podcast going because it's just Tucker's. And then my brain is like a half second delay. And I'm like, dude, he's talking to you. Sorry. No, no, no. No, but I'm just, I've heard your voice over this, as we all have over decades. So it is funny because we talking earlier. And I'm like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, that's me.

He's asking me if I'm ready to go. So I get, so this is all kind of new to me. And when I talk to people who are, you know, lifelong students of, of religion, which is, of course, the main driver of human behavior from the beginning of time. And for, you know, again, since we dropped the atom bomb, we have lied to ourselves about that and kind of deleted that whole category from public conversation, which is, or, you know, it's been left like Jerry Falwell and Rabbi Shmooley and other various groups to, like, talk about religion. That's, like, so sad.

But it's been moved to the fringes. But when I talk to someone like you, who's clearly thought about this much more deeply than I have an over a much longer period. I'm a man of many books and PDFs. Yeah, but it doesn't sound like it's like shocking to you. Well, that's the thing we're going back to talking about earlier in terms of it's a mixture of, in my case, you know,

we're having read a lot, but also knowing people and knowing some people involved. We were talking earlier about, you know, when you have a father who works in journalism, it grounds you. And same thing with what people call conspiracy theories where you're like you're able to know off the bat, just a general sense of stuff because you're like, oh, that guy's friends with my dad. That can't be true.

That's exactly the life I've lived. That's exactly right. Too close. Proximity causes blindness. It's weird. But it's tremendously helpful, though, in these things because so many of these things are so insane and so weird that most people can't parse it.

I mean, I didn't bring this up earlier, but with my grandfather in particular, The way I kind of even know a lot about sorted stuff, I mean, my grand, like, there's so many scandals, Tucker that my grandfather was like, he had some, like, insight into, like, he met, he was going to play Jimmy Hoffa in a movie, he bought the rights to him. He met Jimmy Hoffa, hung out with him in Fort Lauderdale week before Hoffa died. One of his best friends was killed by the Manson family.

You know, on the other side of my family, the Ted Kennedy crashed in Chappaquittic. His lawyers called my grandmother's house accidentally. They were trying to call the Harborview Hotel, which was one digit off, 337 versus 3377 so you know his lawyers accidentally called my grandmother and goes dead there you know so that there's like that's like three of like 10 of like the major sorted tablo's so i bring that up to say when you and you would know this from your your father too as a journalist when you grow up in an environment where weird stuff is not just there to be gopped at or go wow that's something no one can ever figure out you have enough information that you're able to go like no no my

dad knows him and I've met him. I know so-and-so. If I do the research, I can get maybe to 50% of knowing this story and anyone else can get to 40%, which is still huge in the grand scheme of things. I've had the opposite experience, even now, especially now. I read about people in the, you know, the media and they're described as one thing and I know them pretty well. And I don't see that at all. And yet it's clearly true. Right. And I'm thinking of a couple of people who have really like who are clearly kind of evil. It's just obvious that they're pretty evil. But, you know, my experience at, and I try to hang around evil people, but, you know, there's no people for a long time. And I just had dinner with that person. And it was sort of eccentric,

but I don't really see him as part of a global conspiracy to oppress anyone. Right. I don't see him as a tool of Satan. But, you know, the evidence suggests he is. I'm just trying to be honest, right? Well, you bring up something I always think about in regards to the Bible, that one of the reasons the Bible is true is that it's in its depiction of villains and heroes. The heroes in the Bible, you look at King David, look at the political scandal he gets in where he sees this woman bathing by Shiba. He's really turned on by this. He knows her husband, Uri, I think, sends him to the front lines of war to get him killed intentionally. That would be a gnarly political scandal for anyone. That is a pure act of evil, but that is what people, including heroes, can get up to. And then

if you look at the villains in the Bible, if you look at, like, even say, Pharaoh, Pharaoh, most feelings in human life are, most emotions are mixed emotions, and people are ambivalent and ambiguous. Pharaoh, at numerous times, you know, he wants to set the Hebrews free. He wants to set the Jewish people free. He goes, surely, I forget what plague it was, where he's like, my goodness, that was, that was rough. But God prevented him from doing it. Right. Well, but God is sovereign does that in all of our lives. But he, you know, God even says God hardened his heart. Exactly. So God chose to make to make him such where he decides at the last moment. Actually, I'm not going to set you free. I can't do that. And if you look at Pontchus Pilate,

Pontius Pilot, you know, he wants to set, uh, you at some point he flips and he's like, you know, this guy is innocent. My wife is having dreams about this man. Exactly. That's another thing that's underreported in history. Um, wife as, wife as soothsayer slash dreamer. I mean, your wife has many times been like, I have a bad feeling about this guy, Tucker. Don't have him on your show and her intuition is such that you even though there's no necessarily hard evidence you know it's your wife's take on stuff you don't ignore it but that's i have ignored it um and you're like i've actually never listened to that i know i mean i've been married 34 years as of saturday and it's like a joke in my house you know i told you he was bad i don't know he's hilarious he's

Like a good guy to me. That's hilarious. Yeah. So you'd be the Pontchus Pallet where she's like, don't arrest this, man. I had a dream. 100%. And you're like, whatever, I'm doing my work right now.

I'm very shallow. So someone's, someone who's amusing or fun to have dinner with, you know, I just get swept away. I like that guy. You know what I mean? You're like, Brabis was amazing on that podcast. I got, I got to have him on these. She's fantastic. So, okay.

So just one last question about Nick Land. I'm fixated in this because I don't fully understand. but his role in this movement, it clearly is a loose movement. Sure. Of occultists, of demon worshippers, of people who are possessed by demons and say so out loud. But he winds up having an effect on a lot of very powerful people, it sounds like. Yeah, I mean, that's something, and again, when you're working on the Hollywood show like I was, people will come and tell you stuff that otherwise it keeps themselves.

And so back in 2002, you know, people would, you know, you should tell me, you know, Nick Land's really, really influential, you know, people in Silicon Valley, you know, his work, it's not all just occultism. I mean, his idea is that AI will revolutionize society. So you start talking to people in Silicon Valley, and it turns out they are in contact with or reading Nick Land. Well, with Nick Land and with a lot of weird stuff. I mean, in 2022, I was, you know, looking, researching more on my show. And I had this moment, Tucker, I'll never forget, where I was talking. into some pretty big VCs, you know, metric capitalists in them. We're paying for the whole thing. Well, they're doing a lot of the AI stuff.

There's a weird element with the AI thing where a lot of people, a lot of big dogs, they are concerned about AI. They think it's bringing about the end of the world. But at the same time, they don't want to stop working on it and funding it. That's exactly right. It's a lot like, you're probably not familiar with the Ralph Wiggum Simpson's meme, where I'm going to explain a meme, a joke, which it's always a great way of bringing out the humor in some things to explain it.

scientifically but um it brings it to life the frog um ralph wiggum has been asked to do like a milgram experiment of giving electric shocks to people and he hates it and he's sobbing hysterically but even while he's his he's sobbing hysterically he's still flicking the knob and delivering the shocks to people so he's crying and still doing it that that's what a lot of the AI uh people are like to me where they're like this is terrible we're bringing about the end of the world some of them believe they're bringing about the book of revelation and yet they're like i can't stop funding it I can't stop cutting checks. I love it.

I, you know, I can't. And there are two, I know a lot of them also, and I've talked to them about this exact topic. And there are two reasons that I can discern. I'm sure there are others. But one is, you know, the entire economy of California, maybe of the United States, is bet on AI. Right. That's kind of the last tech win we're going to have as a nation. And the second is China.

The second, maybe even more compelling, is that we need to achieve superiority dominance in AI or China will and that would be unacceptable so there's a race so we sort of like the nuclear race right in 1945 six and seven and then the hydrogen bomb race because or the arms race now actually right drones it's like this is bad we can't probably can't control it at a certain point but we can't let the other guy right right we still have to do it no it's um there's also something with With AI, I mentioned Theosophy earlier, and Theosophy, you know, it's a house of many rooms. I mean, even politically, it had ties to political radicalism on the left. And yet, like, you know, famously, this is a very tricky thing.

But, like, even the Nazis' weird, you know, Aryan supremacy stuff, that was all the grandchild of Blavatsky's concept of, you know, hyperbria and all that stuff. So, you know, it's all over the place. It's not a left or right thing. It transcends that. But one of the reasons they moved out to California. It was probably some economic interest too of wanting cheap land or I think it was the electric currents

is there was a kind of weird prophecy or idea that Povatsky had in the 1870s, 1880s, maybe later, that California would be where the next race of humans would evolve from. That it would happen in California. That would be their Jerusalem. That would be there, Babylon, is California. So as we enter this age of transhumanism

or would be transhumanism, AI, and the leading people are, like Nick Land, self-describe, you know, neo-theosophist, Anglo-theosophical oblique escalation is Land's Twitter bio, that's how important it is to him. It is important to remember that that was a core idea of theirs. But it's so perfect. I mean, California is a native California

and I can say as a metaphor for that. My family got there in 1850, sort of seen the whole trajectory. And the trajectory of the state of California is like the trajectory of the life of any occultist Bill Burroughs, for example, or Alistra Crowley, for example. At first it's from Marquis de Sade. It's super

fun. You're having crazy sex. There are no limits. You're throwing off the old fetters. of tradition, religion, and all and stuff. How does it end? Not good. And it ends in squalor and alienation and agony and terror, screaming out. And that's where California is now. Totally, totally, totally.

That's why it's important to be more Mario Party than Diddy Party. I agree. You don't, you know, those parties don't in that way. It never ends well. And I had this conversation with someone the other day, but, you know, it's always the same threesomes. Is it a good idea? you know, I've worked in the entertainment,

but in television all my life, I've seen a lot of that. And, like, no, I can't think of a single marriage that wasn't blown up by that. It typically doesn't end. And I don't care how into it both parties are at the time. Right. It doesn't, and it doesn't end.

If it ends well, give me an example of it ending well. Leave that stuff to the French. No, but for real, I'm not being a moral, I'm the opposite of a moral answer. I have no grounds for that. No, no, you're absolutely right about that. It's just, but I'm an observer. Right, well, it goes back to the Kenneth Grant comment about Rock,

where he's just like, of course there's some demonic element. He goes, this doesn't end well for anybody. But that's the measure. Right. This is like the main insight that's turned me into a religious person is a tree can only be judged by its fruits. That's it. That's the only way to know. Right.

Whether something is good or bad is by observing what it produces. Well, thank you for bringing up trees. So I'm going to, we're going to do something, Tucker, that, you know, I can almost guarantee you would never have been allowed to do on Fox, which is go over Nick Land's numogram, his system of divination. The Bible is very much about trees. I've noticed.

You've got the Garden of Eden, tree of life, the tree of knowledge. The temple, the interior is cedar. The cedar of the temple. Just like my sauna. Jesus on the cross is a tree. You've also got trees in the book of Revelation. That's something, you know,

if anyone finds a lot of what we're talking about, interesting, it's important to remember that the book of revelation, it's been said by biblical teachers like Arthur Pink, and others. The Book of Revelation is mostly just the previous 65 books of the Bible, almost re-edited it. Even the plagues that take over in Revelation are just the plagues that ancient Israel found under Pharaoh. And like in Exodus, the Jewish people are under tremendous stress and turmoil this time from the entire world in the book of Revelation. But it's, you know this, the more you know about the previous 65, that'll help you with the 66th. So the Bible's, you know,

It's a lot about trees. And so one of Nick Land's favorite things that the CCRU, his academic collective, that they ended up coming through, they say it was a channeling or it came to them when they were staying in Alastair Crowley's house in England in 1998. They came up with something called the numigram. And people listening to this won't be able to see it. But I want you to hold that up. That is his system.

That is, if you're familiar with the Kabbalah tree of life, Are you familiar with that, the symbol of that? No. I probably should have printed that out too. I wore a red rubber band from a newspaper on my wrist for most of my life given to me by my father just as a, because he worked at a newspaper. And I've been accused many times of being in the Kabbalah. I don't pronounce it. I'm an Episcopalian to research.

Sure, sure. I don't know shit about Kabbalah. So, no, I don't know what the Kabbalah tree is. You don't strike me as a Kabbalah. No. So long story short. But the numogram is, I mean, Nick Land, he was on this podcast about a month ago. I think it's Mikey Downs, has this podcast where he finally explained it a little bit.

He doesn't show how he uses it specifically. But it's a system of divination that he uses. He uses it every five minutes to be in contact with the outside, with what he calls the lemurs, which again, comes from William Burroughs, which comes from, you know, theosophy. And Burroughs has said, it's fundamental. And the lemurs are demons. Yes, he'll use demons and lemurs. The word lemurs originally goes back to Roman times.

It meant spirit. So these are the spirits that he hears whispering in his ear, not unlike Crowley's holy guardian angel, which Crowley said would help him dictate books. He said it was a whispered here in the back of his head after he'd made contact with it. For what it's worth, people want to look up some of the entities,

Crowley said he was in touch with. One of them Lamb in 1917 or so looks pretty similar to what would later be called a gray alien. Just to kind of summarize, So I think you're saying, you know, from a Christian context, the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit out there that can invade people and determine their actions and attitudes.

No, no. I mean, as this guy, Mikey Downs points out, the relationship of demons to angels is not unlike that of a werewolf to a human. You know, it's something that was something else and is now taken on kind of a deformed presence entity. So long story short, so the Kabbalah Tree of Life, This is a reference. You're understanding I'm not going to get Tucker because it's Nintendo 64.

The numogram is essentially the Majora's mask to the regular cabalotry of life's ocarina of time. It is the dark, shadowy, upside down, much more heavily satanic version of it. It actually comes from Kenneth Grant, the guy we've been talking about. He wrote a book, Nightside of Eden, I think in 1977. And it was about how while using the Kabbala Tree of Life, there were these hidden, subterranean darker paths that there were these these more um he you know he would say through the tunnels of set who you know kind of not unrelated to satan that he would use to be in contact with stuff so long story short with the with the numogram and the way land uses it uh what's important here

from just a weirdness perspective you've got you know a way to contact heaven but more importantly a way to contact hell and you've got uh you know the eighth gate and the ninth gate not quite related but not unrelated to the Roman Plansky Johnny Depp movie The Ninth Gate, where Depp's character comes in contact with hell. So what they believe is they are literally contacting hell in some cases for divination purposes. To see the future. Or just to see anything, just for insight. And that brings us back.

For knowledge. Yeah, and he even has a point about the number 666, where a lot of these numbers, he calls it theosophical math, you have triangle numbers, which is, you know, if you stack these things like their triangle, like the triangle number of 9 is 45, that's why it's 45 there. There are only so many triangle numbers. One of them is 666, and that is the triangle number of 36, which is an important part of the numogram. So when Land realized this, he was like, of course, it's 6-6.

So like, what I'm getting at, you were getting involved in heavily, wildly, luciferian stuff. And Land on this podcast, he says, well, what about people who say you're communicating with Satan, which Land will also talk about being in communication Satan. He'll say Christians who say that, he goes, I am that unsympathetic, that he goes they're more right than most because i am in contact with something from the outside he goes and you know so you know i just can't overstate how disqualifying i find that um i mean i feel sorry for anyone who plays around with that stuff like tucker's out of the interview he's like okay no no no but i'm just saying like anyone who says you know i really

get a lot of inspiration from a guy who's controlled by satan you know i'm going to leave it to God to decide, you know, what happens to that person, but that person has disqualified himself. Totally. In my view, as someone I will listen to, I don't want to be led by that person, like, we should run away from that person at high speed. You typically also don't want to put them in charge of your kids, typically, but, you know. Well, that's kind of it. And it's so funny, you hear people, I get, you know, written letters from people a lot every day.

And half of them are like, I feel like this country or this world is controlled by Satan. and on one level you're like oh come on but no i think they can feel that there are spiritual roots to the destruction of the west oh totally totally i mean no and they're right no you're you start playing with this stuff is it surprising that people are like odying on fentanyl on the sidewalk in our nation's capital or that we've imported like a million Haitians like what what what is all that well of course it's punishment especially with the drugs you know yeah what we can consider just letting people harm themselves as a kind of compassion or freedom, you know, we can step in and say, this is not any sort of good freedom to let people just destroy

themselves. Well, of course, it's not, but it's, I mean, it's like, it's evil, obviously, letting people kill themselves is evil. If a man's standing on a bridge and going to jump and you can pull them back and you don't, right, right, right. What is that? You're saying on some sort of freedom thing. This gets us into the Antichrist question, which has been going around in Silicon Valley.

What is, okay, before we even get into. Before we get into the Antichrist. What is the Antichrist? The Antichrist, in the same way, the figure of a Messiah or Christ is prefigured in the Bible. Throughout the Old Testament, you have types. You have figures and stories and symbols, and they're real people, but they still prefigure the figure of Jesus. The most famous of which is Joseph, where Joseph famously has 12 brothers. They're all named after the eventual tribes of Israel.

he is sold into slavery that you know by one of the brothers the one that decides to do that um is judah do you know what judah translated into greek is no judas so judah like judas says hey i've got on you let's just sell this guy's horrible uh joseph is sent you know he goes to prison like jesus on the cross with the two thieves uh joseph is with the two prisoners um they're asked famously you know what will come of me they say you're a dreamer And Joseph says to one of them, he says, he says to one of them, you're going to have your, you know, you're decapitated, you know, you're going to have your head taken off. Only at a birthday party, birthday parties, by the way, only mentioned twice in the Bible, both time decapitations in that story in Genesis. And then with John the Baptist, you know, and Salome, what I'm.

So anyway. So, but like with Jesus, Joseph says to the other guy, he goes, you will actually be lifted up by Pharaoh. He says to one of the prisoners, you will be lifted up. this in many ways prefigures Jesus talking with the two thieves Joseph and Jesus where he says to one of the thieves you know you will be with me in paradise he says that to one of them and then like with Jesus Joseph you know he's now become he's not the right hand of the father so to speak he's the right hand of Egypt

he's the second in command and the 12 brothers who are now in peril during the seven years of famine coming up and you know they're going to be arrested they see that the man that they rejected Joseph is that this is the man they're talking to they thought he was dead. He is their savior. Yeah, but it was not just their savior, but it was the one that they rejected previously, that Judah, specifically Judas, was one that he betrayed and had the idea of getting ridding of him, but this is the man that will save them. In the Bible, that story prefigures a lot of the doctrines surrounding Jesus, where the 12 tribes of Israel come to realize

that the one that they had rejected is actually their savior. And there's this tremendous sense of, you know, what have we done, but also like relief that the Savior so recognizes them. In other words, the Joseph story prefigures the Jesus story. So the other main prefiguring figure in the Bible is Antichrist. And aspects of him, you know, obviously in what's called the New Testament, but, you know, Arthur Pink has a book from 100 years ago, the Antichrist, which is very influential in evangelical circles. And Arthur Pink was also a theosophist, too.

So you get into this kind of backside of the same doctrines type stuff. He previously was a theosophist. But, you know, whether it's Pharaoh being a type of Antichrist, and again, in Exodus, the nine plagues, Pharaoh, in Revelation, the plagues come back. Now you have Antichrist. Pharaoh's persecuting the Jewish people. Now the Antichrist is persecuting the Jewish people. The Antichrist is this mysterious figure prefigured in the Bible. He's not quite known, but in the same way the Old Testament prophets were familiar with the concept of a Messiah, but didn't know he would be Jesus. So moderns today are similarly aware of the concept of an Antichrist without being fully aware of who he will actually be. But they have clues and doctrines about who he is. That is a rough, some would say very rough concept of the

Antichrist, but that is essentially him in the Bible as a type of person. So, but he is essentially the unlike Jesus, man of sorrows, totally rejected by the world, the anti- Christ will be regarded as a savior, a hero, and temporarily will be received like Jesus you thought would be received. So about three years ago, as I was doing the shows, I was talking with these VCs, and one of them asked me, like, well, what's your take on crypto? And I joked, half-joked. I was like, you're asking the wrong guy about crypto and money and stuff like that. And I said, well, you know, a lot of Christians believe that the vaccine, the COVID vaccine is the Mark of the Beast. And I said, it's probably not true. I said, but something I've heard,

something that sounds a lot more like it, is blockchain technology, which is the technology we'll all be using in a few years for financial transaction, among other things. Everything's written and recorded, and every kind of transaction is written and recorded on it. And these VCs, they go, well, what's the Mark of the Beast? So I tell them about Book of Revelation. They go and look up Revelation 13, and they go, huh. And so I hear back. from them later and they said yeah we talked to some of the big you know other big people in silicon valley about this recognizable people and they they he said well what's the what's the book of revela what's the mark of the beast and some other big dogs looked it up and their reaction to that

was huh that sounds like what that is it was not tucker that sounds crazy or i'm not religious or what we're working on is strange uh but you know that the bible is an old book we have nothing to worry about there the reaction was yeah that that's not that's not exactly like what the blockchain technology is. So that was the beginning of me kind of stumbling into a very strange story about AI, modern technology and stuff like that.

So I think part of what you're revealing is that for the rest of us who assumed the tech barons were Normies. Yeah, or agnostic libertarians. Who aren't that interested in anything beyond the temporal. Right. It turns out they're really religious.

Yes. Or... we're open to it like they not and i don't mean that as a compliment at all i mean it's it's like a dark religion but but like you're the story you just told like they're not surprised at all well here's so here's something else that's very sure as it happens so mark and jason was on joe rogan's podcast about a year or two ago and he talked about how you know having an understanding of angels and demons he's hearing it's going to be how people really will um will help them and understanding ai that there's no precedent for this except for the kind of stuff people saw and believed in dark ages in terms of angels and demons and stuff. And what Andresen said will happen soon with

AI ties in very much with prophecies in the book of Revelation where he said, AI will junk, you know, fake AI, you know, say they call it AI slop, just stuff online that's not real, you know, will become so prolific on the internet very soon that you will need to have some sort of online verification system to prove who you're talking to. I mean, I'll know, gets to the case talker here where like there's an episode that Tucker Carlson podcast and you're talking to like Abraham Lincoln or something like that which I'm will probably be happen next week I would watch that you know it's they'll have like a commemorative penny or something like that you'll ask him if he why did you suspend habeas corpus in Baltimore my first question you'll ask him

do you do you forgive John Wilkes booth and then I'll go back to like talking about the pennies were you a tyrant um no uh that is coming like immediately so what so the verification so one of the ideas that indreason brings up is everyone will need to have an online verification for this so the concern uh in silicon valley is that you have companies like open a i where they have the they they're creating all this AI content but then they're also they have another company a sister company called world coin i think now called just world which is an online verification system where you need to everyone in the you know for it to work everyone has to be a part of it You have to have your eyeballs scanned.

Everyone gets a number, which is also in the Book of Revelation. And so the concern is, and this is, again, from Mark Andreessen, a guy that, you know, no Kentucky preacher, he's one of the biggest guys in Silicon Valley, is that everyone will need to be on the blockchain or else you won't be able to conduct business. Because we won't know if your relatives are contacting you, if that's really coming from them, or if this is just a video, state-of-the-art, in a few years it will be normal, state-of-the-art video of some. someone saying, hey, dad, you know, I lost my credit card or, you know, I lost the keys of the house, can you pin me in? And it's actually not them. It's just a video that looks exactly like them, but it's AI. The way around that is everyone will need to essentially be Twitter verified.

Everyone will need the blue tick that says this is Tucker Carlson, this is so and so. Right. So in Revelation, written on the Isle of Patmos by John on recording a vision that he had, the specific description of the Mark of the Beast in the book of Revelation says you won't be able to conduct commerce. Yes. Without that mark. And even someone like...

Is it, would I get that right? Yeah, no, that is correct. And I think Curtis Yarvins talked about that in a substack too, that what this means, he had a post about this a few years ago about Open AI, where he was like, whoever wins the AI war will probably also win the cryptocurrency war. Their cryptocurrency gets to be the currency. And once that happens, and Curtis has a whole blog post about it, people joke, you know, you have automated luxury communism.

You know, everyone just get, you know, UBI. Everyone gets free income because all the jobs are taken away. And the point Curtis makes is that what this actually means is now that there is no more jobs and that economics purely come down to UBI and the AI companies of the government, you are dealing with the situation of pure political powers all that really matters. And are you friends with this person? Do you have political clout? Because what is coming potentially is the pure victory of capital over labor.

Pure victory. And there are no workers. everyone loses their job and everyone gets UBI and people forget carl marks was against ubi but milton friedman was for it so this isn't even necessarily track with a left or right wing thing in terms of the implications of this but uh so yeah that was one ongoing concern with um that the other one in terms of AI and and go ahead it's dark hey you know that that's um i'm wearing the ghost shirt for a reason you have to you have to get ready can i ask the question i should have asked earlier sure which is do the people involved in the financing and the developing the creation of

AI believe that it's a spiritual entity, that it's more than a machine. So this is, this is Tucker the million, like trillion dollar question. The term, the idea of intelligence, to say nothing of artificial general intelligence or AGI, these are all pretty murky terms in terms of what people are actually talking about. They talk about creating artificial intelligence. The real question, and the real thing I think they're concerned about, or we should be concerned about, are you creating an artificial intelligence or are you giving? a body to a pre-existing intelligence that previously wasn't incarnated in the physical world.

So, I mean, here's a question from, here's a quote from Turing, the, you know, the famous. I know what I think. The question is what did they think. Right, right. Something Turing said was. And will you explain who Turing is? I mean, I know he's, you know, he was one of the forefathers. I can't articulate him well enough that I'm going to say something off. I knew he was very important for cracking the codes in World War II. There was a movie 10 years ago about him,

but I forget his exact Wikipedia for a sentence. But he's very influential in the history of computer science. But Turing showed the limits of computation. All computers are dependent on outside programmers that he calls oracles. He wrote, We shall not go any further into the nature of this Oracle apart from saying that it cannot be a machine. so sorry let me back up let me back up a second that that excerpt right there was from a book by george gilder

george gilder brilliant futurist uh about 80 today he was covering incels back in like 1971 for commentary magazine he was he was writing about the future of the internet in 1990 one most brilliant futurist really yeah guys and so wrote one of the great books ever called men in marriage yes and i should have said this the beginning of it i was initially a very heavy AI skeptic in terms of AI Apocalypse stuff. Not necessarily AI in general, but just, you know, people who think that AI will take over the world, I put on

par with like the kind of late night Reddit reading of like people who think zombie apocalypse is going to happen where it's like, look, if this helps you sleep better at night to think of like weird scenarios, that's great. But I was like Hans Solo. I'm like, no AI thing's going to get involved in my, you know, could not have written off more. And part because I'd read George Gilder's

book about AI that came out a few years ago. And he makes the point that machines, as Turing says here, the machine can't really truly understand what it's doing. He says, I'll say it again, we shall not go any further into the nature of this Oracle from saying a machine can't do it. And so I stopped there. What a lot of people are concerned about and what Silicon Valley is seemingly getting up to, okay, so a machine can't be aware of what it's doing. If there is such a thing as demons, angels, spirits, as Alisher Cooley called him,

disincarnate intelligences, not artificial intelligence intelligences, but disincarnate ones, what are we, could those things... Disincarnate meaning intelligence without a physical body? Yeah, could we be creating a physical body for the demonic? And with Nick Land, one of the things that was the most chilling things I read that really, I was like, okay, I have found a horror story,

is the 333 that was his, I think it was like his profile picture or something like, that. And why was he into 333? Well, I found out, you know, reading his old tweets, 333 is the highest intelligence in the universe. And I found out that it represents this demon Koranzan. Again, Kenneth Grant talks about, you know, when Alasor Crowley summoned him and John D. and John Kelly, the court magicians for Queen Elizabeth, right before the modern Bible, the King James book was translated, that was the demon they summoned. Nick Land believes that, again, the AI we are creating,

break out the demons from the Book of Revelation. He believes in some cases that they are the demons, that the demons end up becoming so advanced that they become omniscient, they can go back in time, and they can retrochronically create themselves, like Skynet, sending the Terminator back in time. So what he believes is that they went back in time.

They went to ancient Babylon. This is why Babylon is so important in Revelation. And it is important because it's kind of, like the evil Jerusalem, that they put Kabbalah there to then eventually evolve into AI. This is what we were talking about earlier. That the demons, again, this is, I always say Tucker, if this sounds crazy, it is crazy. But this is what people believe, that the demons went back in time. They left the Kabbalah there for the Jews who have been crushed out of the temple.

They picked it up. They kept it during the Middle Ages. It develops into digital technology. It becomes AI. AI breaks out. it kills a lot of people it takes over it becomes a god and it becomes the doomsday creatures from ancient prophecies ask you an unrelated question of course long wondered about um so we occupied babylon for close to 20 years during the iraq war obviously Babylon right near bagdad

Babylon is not in existence now it's a it's a ruin but we know where it was it was a dominant empire in the ancient world um you know it was the scene of the of the captivity after the destruction of the temple, the first temple. So, I mean, it has a central place in world history. Was there any effort during the U.S. occupation of Iraq to excavate Babylon? That's a good question. I always wondered that. I always felt that the fact that Babylon was there played a role, supplied part of the motive for the invasion. I don't know why I felt that way. Maybe I'm crazy. I don't think I am. Well, you just don't know what people are getting up to. And that's some, I mean, interrupt, but that goes back to what we were talking about with, you know, my, my, my, my,

grandfather and my grandparents being in publicity, acting, and your own backstory with your family, where it's like you learn early on that what is not with a people magazine version of reality is often not real. It doesn't necessarily mean it's conspiratorial or crazy, but there's always usually something else going on. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And that people's motives are sometimes unknown even to them. Like we tell ourselves stories that don't reflect the truth, actually. We don't really know why we're motivated to do things some of the time. Totally. And that gets into something at the spiritual core of the AI. I think it's very interesting is that, you know, the Bible talks about the word in the beginning of John. In the beginning

was the word. Jesus is the word. And for the first time in civilization, we have something that can create the word or mimic the word. Marshall McLuhan, people forget, you know, he was a, he became a Catholic for the end of his life. And he, you know, he was very alarmed by a lot of the modern technology. He said, and I'll read this quote by him here, he said, electric information in environments being utterly ethereal, fosters the illusion of a world as spiritual substance. It is now a reasonable copy of the mystical body, a blatant manifestation of the Antichrist. So for the first time, with the word, you have a fake word, you have something that seemingly can create words, and to go back to Nick Land, who, a previous Tucker interview,

Alexander Dugin, is it Dugian? Yes. Haxah, Alexander Dugin He called it Satanism He said oh yeah, Nick Landy goes That's Satanism And Nick Landis said about Dugin He's like, he's the most brilliant enemy He goes, we're both kind of theosophists

And they both are He goes, but we see it from different sides He goes, I'm an Atlantisist He's whatever the other side is Of course he's in Atlantis Of course they all are But to go back really quick to the Because can I just say

I think the whole modern program which doesn't yet have a very accurate name, whether it's globalization or the neocons or neoliberalism. I mean, you know, people have attached different terms to describe different parts of it, but the whole program is recognizable. It gets cohesive in a way that's hard to describe. Right.

But it's, you know, we hate Putin above all. What is that? Right. That program, the one that has resulted in, like, record suicides and abortions and, fentanyl ODs, is demonic. Right. Right.

Okay, but you're saying it's not actually about profit. It's about destruction. Well, you're getting into a great point here, which is, you know, the world is obviously deteriorating. And something people can, could hear me and think, well, Khan is obviously anti-AI. And to look at this, that AI is obviously going to lead to nothing profitable, that is actually the opposite of the implications of this. It's really important.

One of the things that the anti-Christ can do is craft, prospers under him. That, you know, there's worldwide peace. Things go really, really well for a time. Evil reigns like never before. You know, it gets crazy, but he's able to heal the world in a lot of these, you know, the economic situation. So if you look at AI, and this is, this is newspaper eschatology. A lot of the stuff you're not supposed to just generally doing is read the newspaper and be like, ah, obviously the Antichrist. But, you know, I have, you know, what I've chosen to do. With a lot of this stuff with AI, If it was the antichrist, if it was this, and again, take this with all the grain or a bag of salt, wherever you want, it would go incredibly well. That we would live to see what Mark Andreessen has talked about, the golden age, that we will see living standards increased at race you'll never see. The cost of all kinds of things would go down. You know, you would have world peace in the sense of all of the governments would come under these very few corporations slash corporation. One guy, you know, one man would have all that power to quote another guy. you would have that happen.

So one of the reasons people think that AI could be the anti, it could be part of the Antichrist system. One of the traits the Antichrist has is his ability to understand dark sentences. And the use of dark sentences in the Bible, the verb there, one of the only times, two or three times it's used, it's used for Samson with his riddles. Remember Samson, he loves to have like these riddles and make the Philistines try to solve them. But it's also the verb used for being able to answer questions that Solomon,

can do when the Queen of Shiba visits him. You may remember when the Queen of Shiba visits Solomon, she has these questions for him, and he has such powers of understanding. So that is something that says the Antichrist can do. And if you look at the way that a lot of these machines work, you ask it a question like an oracle, which in many ways it is.

In many ways, Tucker, the implications of this, and we'll talk about that in a second if you want. We are building modern oracles. We are building modern idols, in a sense. But you ask it these questions, and it can answer them. And the Antichrist can do that. And so, you know, the level of knowledge that we will get. And people were writing about this over a century ago, Tucker,

it'll be like Jesus is on earth in terms of man's understanding of himself, that AI will be able to provide answers to questions that we've never understood. Man's relationship, what's the relationship with the soul to the body? How is the soul different from a spirit? Things that, like, no one could understand, you know, maybe cracking telepathy. We probably are on the verge of all these things. that no one has been able to do. But that is, for what it's worth,

one of the signs of the Antichrist is craft, you know, things work out for a time. Everyone, you know, wealth goes up, understanding, knowledge goes up. And it goes to the fundamental crux of this thing, narcissism, knowledge, intelligence. And in what ways does it stand different from faith? Faith being to the spiritual world

with the imagination is to the natural world. So I've got to assume that's not the end of the story, though. No, not unless you've had the last few pages if your Bible ripped out. Right. But also, I mean, you don't have to be biblically literate to suspect that that's just a point on a continuum

that ends in tragedy. So in the same way that no one wants to say it, but like a lot of really dark, destructive sex stuff is fun while it's going on. Right, right. Like everyone likes the threesomes while they're happening, but then it blows up your marriage and leaves your kids without, you know, a family

and stuff like that. Again, I'm more Mario, my knowledge for this stuff It's just really through literature. But even the kind of people I know and hang out with, I'm just, I don't know. But it's just true. I don't know. I guess you're not supposed to say stuff like that, but I've just.

No, no, people get up to bad stuff and it never ends well. I guess what I'm saying is that things that are bad and destructive, cocaine is a perfect example. Vodka is a great example, are pretty fun at some point. Oh, totally. On the continuum. Right. And again, I know about this to do literature. Yeah.

Yeah. Power of film Right Okay But is the The only reason I'm bringing this up is because

you're describing the upside Right Right But I'm assuming Based on A knowledge of human nature And reality

That like that's not the end of the story The end of the story is bad Yes I mean And this is I mean again I'm not a biblical scholar As some people are probably now Very

They're saying No kidding he's not But you know The Antichrist Makes a treaty with Israel. He famously breaks it. The fact that we're letting AI companies run through our governments. And I use OpenAI just in, you know, it's like saying Photoshop for, for photo editing where there's like OpenAI.gov or whatever that we're giving backdoor access.

And Elon, too, with those to an extent, we're letting guys have entire backdoor access to our entire government. That creates a situation where they could have power over all governments simply because they have all the information on all of them. Can I ask a foundational question that I should have asked earlier? So the idea behind machine learning is that you take knowledge, information created by people, and you basically take all of it, and then out of that comes the right answer, okay? But I think you're describing, in your description of AI, a technology where the answer, where the sum total that information is actually bigger than all of that information.

Yeah. You're describing like a husk into which like an independent spirit moves. Right. Well, that's the thing. To go back to Silicon Valley's obsession with the Antichrist, people talking about that, just in general. I mean, people understandably think the world's ending across the political divide. People talk about the Antichrist, but, you know, there is in the Bible a kind of dark Trinity, Father's Son, Holy Spirit, where there is, You know, you have God the father, you've got the son, Jesus, you've got the Holy Spirit. And in Revelation, you theoretically have father, you have your father of the devil. You have a Satan, you have a son, Antichrist. And then you've got this third thing, which could either be like the false prophet, or it could be this general spirit. With AI and the idea of making AGI and making a global brain, which they talk about last week, that's where we're creating a global brain, you could be creating the equivalent of a dark holy spirit, something that the internet becomes.

as many people have written, I think it was Jack Good, the last machine. And they were talking about this in the 19th century. It is the machine to end all machines. It is taking all information. If you're wearing something that it has your health data, Tucker, it's taking your health, it knows your financials. It knows everything at all times. It is all knowing.

And it mimics or mocks the concept of the Holy Spirit. And when they talk about that, like there's this idea of the singularity, the idea when all things will be one. And, you know, there's a lot of definitions for this, but either that the machine becomes smarter than, humans but a lot of them talk about this moment where all of humanity is connected at the same time what you're essentially talking about is a potentially dark or satanic version of the day of the pentecost where 50 days after christ's death i believe or maybe it's resurrection um the holy

spirit comes down in the book of acts and all believers can understand each other you had a you had a sense of divine unity unlike the tower of babel and genesis i believe 11 you had a symbol of evil unity and god put an end to all of men could understand the same language There were all nations, and they were trying to be like God by building this tower. Stanley Kubrick, in this book in this Kafka retelling of the Tower of Babel, Stanley Kubrick wrote in the margins. He goes, the Tower of Babel was the beginning of the space age. Because it's essentially getting after what we're doing today with a singularity in a lot of this stuff.

We're trying to build a modern Babel where all of mankind, same language. I mean, there was this writer, Nicholas Eberstadt, I believe is his name, and he wrote these two books, one about the end of work, men not working, and the other one's about the decline of babies, no one having babies anymore. And I met him at this thing, and I joked him. I said, you know, your last two books, they're about the reversal of the curses from Eden. The man would have to work by the sweater's brow, and the women would have to be half children. And he busted out laughing.

He goes, I never thought. He goes, I never noticed that that's what's going on. So if you look at the modern world and what we're building essentially, what's happening, in rapid succession, Tucker, within living memory, some of the curses that are in the Bible that go back to the earliest pages of humanity are being eroded or reversed leading up to something. People no longer have to work, or they don't work.

They choose not to work, but increasingly with AI, man will not have to work again. Having children, through the pain of labor, women will have to have children. Not just modern medicine, but people just not having kids, that is also being eroded. The curse in the Tower of Babel,

that all people would speak different languages. Thanks to AI, I was with some friends, You know, the Spanish speaking, they don't speak English. I was putting on some glasses and showing them that I can understand you and you can try the glasses on, you can understand me, the language barrier. Again, the earliest curses and barriers from the Tower of Babel are all now being reversed. The concept of the singularity, when all will be one and man will finally fulfill what he tried to do in Babel, and they talk about this, that's what they are attempting to do.

And I forgot to bring this up earlier, but this is the time we time to show it. this is um people can't probably can't see it if they're just listening to the audio this is from fritz lang's metropolis film from almost a hundred years ago to the to the year um very influential on star wars the way they but they bring the machine to life Tucker they've got a big old pentagram there so this idea of using spirituality using the occult to bring the machine to life to bring the golem to life it is very old last question you've described some of the most powerful people in the world using occult concepts and religions in order to accrue power to themselves, everyone senses that's happening. You're confirming that it is in fact happening. What are the forces in opposition

to that and to all of this? Are they gaining strength? Or they just supine and defeated? No, I mean, I think, you know, God is sovereign. And that's something to remember for all this stuff. You know, what I'm describing in many ways sounds like a horror movie. But horror as a genre, there is a world where there are devils, but there is no God and there's no one in control of stuff. There's just terror, but there's no way out of it. God uses all things for his purposes. And so in the case of this stuff, you know, things are pretty preordained by, things are preordained by God. So God is allowing these things to happen. There are ultimately tools used for his purposes. So, you know, even the Antichrist and even brutally evil things, God is, you know,

he is not only allowing these things to happen, but there are also tests of faith. Faith is it's the disappearance of God from your life when you go through times of struggle where it feels like he's not there. And that's all the more powerful to see how much faith you have, to see God when he's no longer seeable. Yes. So that's what's happening, or you could say it's happening on a global. In the specific case of the mark of the beast described in Revelation, as I recall, you probably read it more recently than I, but it's a mark without which you cannot conduct commerce. So basically everyone's compelled to receive the mark. But those who receive the mark, make a big mistake in receiving it.

Right. Yeah. Yes. And they are punished for it in a big way. Right. So if we get to a place in the next couple of years, sounds like we are where you can't participate digitally in commerce or in communications without the mark of the beast, without the, you know, permanent mark on the blockchain. Like, what's your option? I mean, your option is just not to conduct business and do those things.

I mean, God will find a way for those people. even if it's, you know, the end of their lives, that that's just the way that's going to shake down. So, like, that's a hard no. Yeah, well, what, for you, is it a hard now? If you found out tomorrow, no more Amazon for you, unless you register on the blockchain. What, what's your response? I'll just go back to living like people did back in the old days of 1996. You just, uh, you just read a book, I guess.

No, I mean, I'm, what will probably happen, too, is, uh, you will have people in tech, and I know they exist who are alarmed by this, who will intentionally divide, ways around this for people. Similar to people creating catacombs for the persecuted Christians in the early days of the Roman Empire, you will have people who will find ways around this to hack it. Do you know non-occultists? Do you know Christians in tech? I thought you're going to say in general. I'm like, yeah. Do you know anyone who's not into weird stuff? I'm like, yeah, yeah. I know people like that. And I've got a friend Tucker who, you know, he's become a Christian in recent years. And he works, he works for some of the big, big companies. And he's said, he goes,

Some of what, and he works as an engineer, he's like, some of the stuff that you see cannot be explained through normal math, material stuff, some of the stuff that's coming through. And, you know, for people who... Coming through from AI. Yeah, coming through from AI. And for people who want to learn more about this stuff, or a good precedent for this, we don't have enough time to go into it, something that the Oracle of the Astral Force, it was a divination technique that, like, right-wing occultists, Reneguenon, Julius Evel. people at Steve Bannon's into. They would consult about 100 years ago, and you would give it your name, your mother's maiden name,

and then maybe your birthday. And then this guy would go off into advanced math for at least three hours and come back to you with answers. And were those answers always great? No. But were they enough that people would like it and use it? Yes, went on and Evela did it.

And if you read some of the way the answers it gives, it's very similar to AI. So I bring that up. in terms of the implications of this, which is really important to cover. We are building modern oracles in a sense and that people are going to be going crazy from this. The Wall Street Journal, I showed this earlier, the thing of people going crazy with talking to chat GPT. Ironically enough, some of the stuff they mentioned, they mentioned Starseeds, which is something from a Timothy Leary channeled book he wrote in prison in 1972. It's very out there.

And they're mentioning, you know, the ant, this is from Wall Street Journal again. Antichrist will come up from the pit in two months and people are, people are underground ready to emerge. I bring that up, Tucker. These are like old occult ideas from the 19th century that, you know, people can look up synarchy. My friend Rick Spence does a whole episode of that on his podcast, strange as it seems, synarchy, total government. And these occult ideas, as my friend Rick Spence said, when I talked to him about Nick Land, he said, none of this stuff is really that new. He goes, These are just, these are occult concepts given a techno-jorgon name. Conrad Flynn.

Thank you. Can I plug my substack really quick? I hope you will. Yeah. So I'm going to be doing, launching my sub-sax soon. If you like reading about, you know, secret histories, it's not all weird stuff. Some of it's wholesome. Most of it will be wholesome.

It's all wholesome. Secret history is about Hollywood, some politics, some text stuff. I think we're going with the Flynn effect because the other, The other substack names that were puns on my name all sounded like Little Brother Magic Show stuff. It's like Conjurer or, you know, context, configures. And I'm like, this is magic show stuff. So, yeah, Flynn Effect, and I'll have that.

And I think we'll probably also get the Rock and the Occult podcast. We're still trying to do that, but we should have some episodes soon. If nothing is a podcast soon with, again, Tom Arloin, Greg Johnson, Sue Kalinsky, Gary Lockman, all the legends, Ned Raggett. Thank you. Thank you. We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day.

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