The Tucker Carlson Show - The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets

Episode Date: December 29, 2025

Why’s it suddenly so expensive to take your dog to the vet? Here’s a hint: private equity. Joe Spector on the solution. (00:00) Why Is Veterinary Care So Expensive? (02:55) The Private Equity Firms Swallowing Small Businesses (23:14) The AVMA Cartel Pushing Lobbying Politicians (27:13) The Mass Veterinarian Shortage Paid partnerships with: Masa Chips: Get 25% off with code TUCKER at https://masachips.com/tucker Battalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver. Gain clarity and confidence in your financial future at https://battalionmetals.com/tucker Last Country Supply: Real prep starts with the basics. Here’s what we keep stocked: https://lastcountrysupply.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Joe, thank you for doing this. I don't think I've ever, I probably have, I don't remember, I don't think I've ever interviewed an advertiser. And so I just want to be clear about why I'm doing this interview. So I called you several months ago to ask you if you wanted to advertise in our show because you have a pet-related company. I love dogs. I've got a dog right there.

And we had this conversation that was like so unbelievably interesting. So interesting that I haven't stopped thinking about it. it. So that's, I just want to be fully transparent about why I asked you to come. Thank you for doing it. So here's, here's my real question. Veterinary care. Anyone who owns a dog or cat knows a lot about it. There's no backstop. There's no health insurance, whatever, and you'll pay anything because it's your pet. It's right. It's a member of your family. And it's getting really, really expensive. So can you just give us the overview? Why is it so expensive to say bring your dog in for his shots? Like how does this system work? Yep. Just to put a pin in that, veterinary care

has grown 2x the rate of inflation. So we talk about inflation. The cost of? Yeah. So the inflation is already high. Yeah. Veterinary inflation is double. It's like 2x. That's how crazy it is. So something that was $50 is literally $100 a year later. Why? There's a number of factors. One, there's been a lot of private equity consolidation in the space. I could have guessed that. Follow the money.

So, you know, that just means less supply and the demand's only growing. That's one big factor. The other factor is because it's a cash pay industry, there's really no insurance. Right. veterinarians and you'll read this in trade magazines they build their business on production which is basically selling you more stuff yes so a third of their revenue is dependent on you getting a blood exam getting x-ray etc and i think to be clear like the rank-and-file veterinarians are doing this only because they love pets i think what's happening is it's the few business owners and ultimately, like I said, private equity that are simply raising prices for something that you're going to pay for no matter what. Yes.

And it's scaring people. We, so at Dutch, my company, 50% of our customers say they haven't been to a vet in three years or more. Oh, I bet that's right. People are scared that the moment they enter a vet's office, they have a $500 bill or more. Literally. So let's just back up. go through these one by one so the first is private equity what so private equity buys the model in

general buys small businesses independent businesses yep links them together for efficiencies for cost savings right this is the idea this is what they tell yes so how many do you have any sense of how many vets are owned by private equity now i think it's like almost it's like a third to a half probably Wow. Okay, so they've been scooping them up. Oh, massively. In fact, this, there's been, there's like two major companies that are doing it that there was a lawsuit that they're creating a monopoly that that's, that's, that's, that was going around. So they'll go to owners of, of Brooklyn, mom and pop shops. Yeah, mom and pops and they'll just, they'll, and they're doing this with dentists as well and HVAC and like basically every small business in America. And, and they'll buy it just a whole bunch of, of them. Exactly, yeah. And then become like regional. Yep. And then they'll just raise the prices. Does the care get better? No, the care gets worse because you're no longer bringing the, they're doing nothing. I don't want to like say nothing, but there's really no like modernization of equipment or faster care. It's the same thing. They just literally raise the price.

huh um and it sucks it's like super unfair i know well i mean i you know i'm willing to believe there are examples of private equity doing what it says it does which is you know to come in and make the business better better for its customers better for its owners better for its employees i've never seen that no ever in any sector but i i believe there must be some time where that happened? My old veterinarian, I switched to, and I asked for my, which is owned by product, I asked for my medical records. It was 50 pages of PDF with scribble notes. I mean, there's no way that there's any thing that you could ever find what's there. So I don't believe, I've not seen any sort of better care for pets as a result at all. Yeah. But greater returns for

the investors in private for the yeah totally so um okay so how do they can you be specific about how they raise the prices you suggested there's an incentive for veterinary offices to hike the price of annual exams and shots annual exams but they'll sell you more stuff too so they'll say you know what your dog needs teeth cleaning and so we need to put them under anesthesia and that's going to be like a five thousand dollar bill for teeth cleaning Which... $5,000? Yes.

I've had a lot of dogs, dozens and dozens of dogs. I've got five at my house right now, and I don't think I've ever had a dog's teeth cleaned. Yeah, exactly. And my dogs live a long time. Exactly. Exactly. And the thing is you're there and you feel horrible because you only want to do what's best for your pet. But what happens is they have a list of all the services they want to sell to you, and that's going to be one of them.

and you feel horrible that you even have to think about the decision. Of course. But it's like, that's a lot of money. I mean, most people don't have $5,000 lying around the house. Putting your dog under anesthesia is not a small thing. I mean, dogs die. People die under anesthesia. You're suspending life in a living thing.

Totally. Yeah. So I think what happens is it's the list of services that they'll try to sell you and make you feel horrible. that you don't care about your dog if you don't buy from this menu. There's so much emotional leverage. People are so intense about their animals. Yes.

Not in my house. We have, you know, critical distance. No, but I mean, you'd do anything. You'd sell your car. I mean, I would. And so they have a lot of power when they're upselling. Yes, totally. It seems like the incentives would,

produce like actually bad outcomes where your dog or cat is getting treatments they don't need and that might be counterproductive well i think what happens is people just stop going to the vet at all that i mean that's what we've seen is that there's just a whole there's tens of millions of dogs that never go to the veterinarian at dutch 50 percent don't go to the vet haven't been to the vet in years. And it's because they don't want to, they don't want to feel bad for not buying extra services for their dog. That's amazing. What about all the shot? There are a lot of shots and they're very expensive. Definitely there's vaccines, but even vaccines, like you should, I mean, as we have, a Dutch try to kind of, so telemedicine can't do vaccines. But there's definitely

lower cost clinics that will do vaccines for $50. Whereas in person, it'll cost you $150 to $200 for the same thing. For a shot? Yes. Why would it cost $200 for a shot? Well, they'll say, well, I have to pay for rent and I have to pay for stat. I mean, they'll say there's like all this upkeep that the shot includes. But it's baloney.

That goes back to private equity raising prices and knowing the people, there's some people who will still pay for it. So the profile of the vets that I've dealt with in the past 20 years It really, really changed. It's a female industry now. Yes. Which I think is good, just to be honest. I feel like there are really a lot of dog lovers.

Not all, you get hard cases among vets, but most vets I know just really love animals. Yes. Christmas is here. That means you're eating a lot. We are. It's a tough time to get on the scale because the meals keep coming and so does the weight gain.

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of applications from people who want to do telemedicine. And actually, to this point that it's female, telemedicine allows them to have a work-from-home flexible schedule, which they love. Yeah. The main industry association, the AVMA, has basically made these vets feel that if they do telemedicine, the FBI will show up at their house.

What? It has scared them to death from doing telemedicine. To death. And it's because, again, it's comprised of these self-serving, financially interested individuals who run the organization.

but they have completely scared veterinarians from doing telemedicine whatsoever. Why would the FBI show up at a vet's house? What they'll say, and again, I think this is why I want your listeners to know this. It's just so insane. They will say that the federal law requires you to have a physical exam, no matter what.

Like, no matter if it's an appeal, It's a rash. It's a quick question. They'll say that the FDA website requires a physical exam, which it doesn't. But in every conference, in every newsletter, they'll say, oh, well, we asked the FDA, and they said that you need a physical exam. So if you violate this, you might go to jail. That's what they'll say at every conference for years now. And they'll vilify me and Dutch, and they'll say this guy is going to hurt your dog. If there's telemedicine, millions of dogs will die, is the headline. I'm sorry to laugh. I mean, that's like obviously not true. Speaking of emotional blackmail. Yeah. So one of the main, so why this booker will shoot this dog? I mean, it really, yeah, millions of dogs would die. Do you really say that? Yeah. Well, again, so this is what they'll say at a conference. What I've been doing now is I've been working with the ASPCA and a huge coalition of shelter organizations because they're the ones that get the brunt of it because now millions of dogs actually also get surrendered because their owners can't care for them.

Because they can't afford veterinary care. Yes. Come on. I'm telling you. People abandon their dog? Yes. Oh, man. I know. It gives me chills. It fucking sucks.

So the only way this can change is at the state level. And we've been working, so in Florida, it took us four legislative sessions to allow telemedicine. And all it does is all the law will say is that the veterinarian can use their judgment to make a decision. But may I just ask you a foundational question? Why is the state involved in what kind of medical care? you give your dog. Just because health care is regulated at the state level.

I know this is veterinary care. And that, I mean, and then. But you have dominion over your dog. I mean, right? It's so weird that they feel like some state legislator feels like he has more power over your dog

who sleeps in your baby who's your dog than you do. Like, what is that? That's the system we live in. But actually, I will tell you this, most legislators once we tell them

that this is a law that you need to help us with most of them are completely on board they don't they're like we have human health care and this is like a lot of them will say I didn't even know this wasn't like you said I didn't know this was an issue

this is dumb so where it doesn't work is when the AVMA or a lot of these state lobby groups who have hundreds of millions of dollars in annual budgets, if they've lined a politician's pocket, then that's where we will have trouble in those states. Taking money from the veterinary lobby. Yeah.

There are a lot of dark lobbies. We only pay attention to a couple of them, but there are so many. Yeah. So can you just quickly tell me how that works? So the AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine Association? Yeah, medical association. Medical Association, and why do they have an interest in preventing telehealth for animals? There's one reason that they'll say, and then there's one reason that they'll say behind closed doors.

So what they'll say in public is that they'll say telemedicine is going to harm dogs, lead to millions of dogs dying. But what they'll say at the hearing behind closed doors, it's purely financial. They think that it's an either-or choice that if you have telemedicine, people will no longer go to the vet and their brick-and-mortar business is going to die. That's not true. Oh, so they're just preserving the monopoly. Yeah, they're preserving the monopoly. It's just like always. Most regulation exists to preserve existing monopolies.

Yes, exactly. That's true in tech. It's true in manufacturing. It's true in the nicotine business. It's true in veterinary care. Wow. I should have known that. Duh.

Oh, you're right. Millions of dogs will die. Like, who has died? No one. Also, if people aren't even bringing their dogs to the vet because it's too expensive, how is that good? Exactly. Dogs are getting zero care. And you will have these people say that they will prefer that than they'll prefer the status quo.

The industry association will say they'll prefer the status quo than allow telemedicine. And by the way, it's not an either or choice. It's not like, oh, I have a video call, and now I no longer get vaccines at the vet. You know, like we have, again, human health care, we still go to our brick and mortar, annual checkup, whatever. And then if we have a issue at night, we don't have to go to emergency. Yeah, if you've got porcupine quills in your dog's throat or, you know, cuts his leg on barbed wire, you have to go to. to a surgeon. That's right.

But if he has a rash and you just want to know, like, is it, like, what is this? Why do you have to go to urgent care when you can just show, again, the dogs in the comfort of their home, and you use your phone and show a video of their paw? Right. Like, why do you have to drag that animal in? And that's right. And for example, we get porcupine quills on our dogs all the time a lot. And I wish I could say my dogs are smart enough not to try and eat porcupines, but.

they're not and every year i have to take the quills out which is it takes like four hours but i do it myself because well because i know how but also because my dogs don't like to go to the vet at all and it smells like death and they can smell it yeah mind you too dogs are euthanized there they know that and um so we do everything we can to prevent physical visits because the dogs are panicked and i think most people with dogs know this yes and i think cats feel the same way cats are even worse. Yes. Because to corralic cat. Difficult. Difficult. So anything as someone, if you love animals, you want to,

you want to care for them, of course, but you want to keep them out of the physical space if you can't. Yep. They're in the comfort of their home. Exactly. One of the things we see a lot is behavior and anxiety cases. And that's even more so why they should be treated from home because the dog is in their natural environment, you're only making their situation worse by forcing them to this place they don't like. And then a lot of the behavior modification that happens, telemedicine is perfect for that because you can have these regular conversations and for a fraction of the price. Just to give you context, by the way, so Dutch, it's less than $100 for a year of care if you went every month you'd pay a hundred bucks a month you'd pay like over a thousand

dollars to treat your dog and oftentimes when you have anxiety you kind of need to have those regular check-ins and we had a story recently of of this guy who had an aggressive dog he's been on dutch for two years and the dog went from crazy aggressive to now he has two buddies like his life has changed yes and there's no way in the world this uh owner could have had the money or the time if dutch wasn't around to change this dog's life amazing yeah and if you have a dog who bites i've had a few uh it's very disruptive and you know the dog can get killed by the way you know dogs like that either get put down by the state or can be killed in a fight whatever You don't want that at all.

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Yeah. And so you have a video call. Most calls happen on people's phones. You talk to a local vet in your state, and they'll, you know, you're talking to a professional. And so they'll diagnose. But you're talking to a veterinarian. Yeah, you'll always talk to a veterinarian, a human being. And 90% of the time, and we've been doing this now for five years, 90% of the time they're able to address the issue over video.

Amazing. And so does that include vaccines or what does that include? It includes the cost. So vaccines you have to do in person and will recommend a local. clinic if that's what you need. But if you need medication, we have pharmacy partners who can ship that to you. You can also go to a pharmacy of your choice. You don't care. But it includes kind of any of the follow-up messages, chats with a vet. So you don't feel like you're nickel and dined if I have another question or if I have to follow up a week later. The other thing that's cool about

digital first is that everything is documented. we know automatically when we should follow up for each condition or we know that a veterinary needs to respond like we have goals a veterinary needs to respond within a matter of hours back to the patient if there's a message during the business day so we can also like really monitor quality metrics to make sure that customers are having a good experience is this nationwide? It's nationwide, but there are about 20 states that don't allow telemedicine. For animals? For animals, yeah. Really? Yep. Because of lobbying by Rick and Order. Exactly. So that's what I... Any of the big states? Any of the big states. Some of the biggest ones like Texas, which is crazy because California allows it, but Texas does.

not and we actually had a huge bill this year that literally got killed by the AVMA and it's all because of money that's wild yep so it's you are not allowed to do so is there like an underground telehealth like why don't you just ignore the law and do it anyway sorry kind of well so there's actually on in Texas there's a court case that is now at the Supreme Court where the veterinarian said, well, it's freedom of speech. Yeah. I'm just like telling people like how their pets, you know,

this is my freedom of speech. So the Fifth Circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, has ruled in his favor. But the attorney general has filed this as an appeal at the Supreme Court currently. Seriously? Yeah. What's his name? Greg. Forget his name. That's so interesting. He's running for Senate. So right now it is illegal for anyone in Texas to call a vet on the phone and just get health care on the phone. Yep. According to them, now there's always, so there's two paths in Texas. There's any state allows, has an emergency provision if it's a life or death situation.

And then in Texas, again, there's this Fifth Circuit decision that's currently, so there's like, there's sort of this competing situation in Texas where on the one hand, the Fifth Circuit says telemedicine is allowed, but the state regulations still say that it's not allowed. I'm pretty sure I could just call up and get like very serious drugs prescribed through telehealth as an adult. That's right. Like very, so you're fully addictive benzodiazepines, for example. Totally. You can die from going off them. I mean, this is, like, way more, way more addictive than heroin. You can't die going off heroin.

You can die going off Xanax, so. It's all about the money. But that's totally fine to get that from telehealth. Yes. Or amphetamines, no problem. It's like Tijuana. You know, you get whatever you want now. But your dog can't get treatment.

Yeah. That's not, it's definitely unfair. Well, it's deranged. Is that changing? Are you making progress? We're making good progress. So we've changed the laws in Florida, Arizona, Ohio, in a number of states. And this upcoming legislative session, we're lobbying in 12 different states. But definitely there's a lot of states. I'm sure your listeners live in a lot of those states. And one of the things we did is we launched this website called savepuppies.com And if you go to Safepuppies.com... Well, I love your marketing. I mean, if they're saying

millions of dogs will die, you should, you know, you're fighting back with Savepuppies.com. That wasn't taken? I know, right? Yeah, it wasn't taken. And so, you know, you can go there and send a letter to your local legislator.

That's the only way that things will change is at the grassroots level, because we don't have the crazy budget that these trade groups have. Can I ask you, what is the AVMA think of private equity scooping up all the independent businesses? They're associated. I think they're associated with it. They've got no problem with that. I don't think so. Price is going up, care declining. They're totally fine with that. But they're against options. What else? So I think, again, there's two things, what they'll say publicly versus what happens behind closed doors. And I've read our, I mean,

it's like we live in two different worlds because what they'll say is, like, for example, one reason prices are going up is there's also massive vet shortages, because the veterinary profession has one of the biggest dropout rates of anyone. And they'll say, and this is just, It's, this is just factually, like, true if you follow BLS, Bureau of Labor Statistics, but they'll say there's no shortage. Or you'll say, you know, prices are going up, and there's, like, data that shows that. They'll say, no, prices are not going up. So a lot of times when you talk to them, the surveys they put out make, are completely nonsensical.

Right. And there's this bottleneck in very, school. Totally. So that's another thing. The AVMA, it's really weird in this industry. And I think I just, again, I'm here because like you shine a light on things. And I think a lot of people. Well, I care about this topic because I think the relationship between people and animals is just so essential. I know. It sucks what they're doing. So they, the AVMA controls accreditation for veterinary colleges. okay like this happens in no other like law schools don't have a trade association decide like who gets to have a law school yeah in this industry the AVMA controls what is deemed a vet school and they have chokehold that completely so private equity decides whether you get to be a vet or not I mean in effect if private equity is the single biggest player in this industry. That's bonkers. Why? I mean, it goes back to money. It goes

back to when you have less supply, you can charge more and because people are willing to pay more for it. So they have an incentive to reduce the number of new veterinarians coming out of school every year? It's like, I hate to draw that line, but I think that's what's happening. Well, if it's about money, then it's supply and demand because that's what the market is. And so the fewer vets you have, the higher the prices. Yeah. It like makes, I've, you know, and again, I think I'm a curious person, and I try to, like, understand, like, could it be something else?

Is there another reason? Like, why would this, if you have high attrition, you have prices going up, you would think that the way to solve that is to have more veterinarians. Yes, yes, of course. And that's just not what they're doing. And they've, like, literally, I at this point know several vet schools that have just stopped developments, you know, gave up because the AVMA basically told them that they're not going to get a license. That's crazy. I'm not sure.

Because there are very relatively few colleges that turn out veterinarians. Oh, there's totally few. Like, just think, I can tell you this statistic. There's about one veterinarian for every 3,000 pest, in America, for context, the ratio in human health care is one to 20. No way. The disparity is so huge and the amount of vet schools is so little. Like, we can have, you know, dozens of vet schools pop up and it would still maybe not be

enough in the next decade. And like I said, this trade organization is refusing to launch any new schools. Well, I mean, that's a cartel. That's cartel behavior. It's very much cartel behavior. And what's crazy is I feel like then this gaslighting happens where I'm painted as the bad guy. And they'll say, this guy Joe or Dutch, you know, he's just self-interested. He just want, you know, he's the one that wants your money.

And I'm like, how is that possible when I'm like reducing the cost? Like, it doesn't make sense. Well, it wasn't that long ago that many Americans thought they were. inherently safe from the kinds of disasters you hear about all the time in third world countries, a total power loss, for example, or people freezing to death in their own homes. That could never happen here. Obviously, it's America. People are recalculating, unfortunately, because they have no choice. The last few years have taught us that. Remember, when the power grid in Texas failed in the dead of winter? Yeah, it happened, and it could happen again. So the government is not actually as

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the grid doctor for power you can trust this winter. Lastcountry supply.com. Why did you get into this? A couple reasons. So prior to Dutch, I was one of the co-founders of Hems and hers. And so I helped start that telemedicine journey. And I would say if we back it up even more, we'd have to go back to my experience coming to America and just always as an immigrant and having to figure things out when we, my family and I immigrated from the Soviet Union. Where? To the Bay Area.

No, but where in the Soviet Union? From Uzbekistan. From Uzbekistan. Former a current separate country at this point. Yeah, but then a Soviet Republic. Yep. We. What was Uzbekistan like?

you know it's um it's very it's muslim majority but it i would say secular and um everyone got along i thought quite well um and we're jewish and i actually didn't even know i jews and muslims are supposed to not get along when i we went to each other's weddings there's lots of shared history and similarity um that's been true by the way i just say factually that has been true in various parts of the world over time you know not always of course there are huge problems but then other places there are no problems and that was one of them yeah so it was you know we we you know i mean i i had a good childhood we left everything uh behind because my dad was uh almost thrown into a labor camp for having an illegal book

which is just like a regular, I'm sure it's probably maybe a book on your shelf. What book was that? It's called Exodus by Leon Euris. No way. Yeah.

And it's just a book about fighting for freedom. Exactly. I think it's a concept they didn't want you to know about. Yeah. And we fled. We fled with,

I had a hundred bucks in a red suitcase. And we left, lived in Italy in a refugee camp for several months. Eventually got political asylum to come to the United States

and then, you know, lived in low-income housing for a long time. In the Bay Area? In the Bay Area. What was that like? A couple things. First,

my dad definitely told us that we have to assimilate, that we have to learn the language. He himself, he was a civil engineer and I saw him at first working flea markets just doing manual labor and I think it showed me that he would do anything for his family to have a meal on the table and I think later in life it

showed me you know no one's too good to take out the garbage that's right that is exactly right and and just the value of a dollar I still I think you know I want to make sure my kids have that but I still think, and I think back to this business. I think that's why when I see things that are so expensive for people, I feel it in my bones because I still know what it's like to not have any money to make difficult decisions when you only have so many dollars every month. What did your dad wind up doing? He ended up going back to being an engineer.

Wow. He got trained. education, and he found a mentor who took him under his wing, and he became an engineer again. Amazing. Yep. They really, yeah, so in so many ways, they inspired me. And with that said, there's not much that they knew about America. And so I knew that they would love me, but a lot of times I had to figure everything out for myself.

I went to college. I paid for college myself. And I think all of these things taught me to be a survivor, taught me to make something out of nothing. And kind of that's led me to hymns and ultimately that led me to Dutch. Were you an animal person? we had animals so in the soviet union tons of animals um so i always definitely grew up with animals uh german shepherd oh great dogs had a black cat um so we had animals up until i was 10 and then we lived in a part in tiny tiny apartments and so then we got finally when i had a family and we had a house we got so that's when we got my corgi and that's kind of how it all happened because i was coming off hymns it was starting to be a big company i always like smaller companies and when i can actually still create something yes and then we got a corgi and started to see the vet bills

and then the kicker was he got into a trail mix and then we had a two thousand dollar vet bill trail mix yeah like trail mix had like a couple m&Ms in it oh yeah and they're supposed to eat m&ms yeah they like them though yeah i like them who does yeah right and did he get sick no but the thing is and that's the thing is then i was talking to a veterinarian friend and he said like you really didn't have to do you didn't have to like pump his stomach for like the three m&Ms that he ate and I so then that's kind of how I started to look around like are there any like could I've done something else did did you pump his stomach yes so can I just pause and say I love how even if they're misguided I love how devoted dog owners are to their dogs and cats I mean they just like they'll do anything yeah I'll do anything yeah yeah I'll do anything and but and and so I think that's when I realized there's really no like other option when it comes to There's no telemedicine options that I saw. And it goes back to that a lot of times it has to do with the laws.

But look, I'm the guy who I figured when him started, it was actually a similar situation. Back five years ago, telemedicine wasn't legal on the human side either. Like, we forget that because it's now so commonplace. But it was also the same thing. And I helped change those laws back then. I think that's kind of why some of these groups are scared of me is because this guy comes from a place where, like, he has nothing to lose. He's only doing, I mean, also, I think it's because I'm doing the right thing. I think they don't like that.

And I've done it before. So I think that kind of gives me more confidence that I can do it again. And I don't think that's, because before this, so before Dutch came on the scene, what the, shelter groups, for example, that want to telemedicine, what they were doing is talking to the state veterinary boards. Because that's how the, that's a, that's a simpler way that this could all change. If the veterinary board at the state, they could just say, if you want to do telemedicine, do telemedicine, if it's medically appropriate. It could be as simple as that. And so for over 10 years, they were having these conversations. And so that's when I got here.

And I'm like, this is doing nothing. So we got to go the legislative route. It's so revealing, however. I mean, again, I think they're probably good people with good motives up and down the line. There always are in these systems. But the system itself is so distorted that they don't put the welfare of animals as the top goal. Like, that always has to be the point, right? If you're a veterinary board, the health of animals, that's why you exist.

Totally. Right? But it doesn't seem like they're thinking that way. Well, again, what they'll say is, we are thinking of the pets. We think millions of dogs will die with telemedicine. How will that happen? Well, let me tell you. Some of these examples I've seen, they'll say, like I'll say, the example I use, anxiety,

like I'll say, isn't that great for telemedicine, the dog is in the comfort of their home, and they'll say, well, what if the dog ate a nail? You know, if the dog ate a nail, I've been in hearings where this example has happened. Yeah. Well, if the dog ate a nail, look, maybe that he's barking because he had a nail and he's in pain because he ate a nail. And so that's why we shouldn't have to. It's like, are there nails on your house? Like, why are we going to use this crazy, made-up example to deny millions of dogs from having this opportunity to use telemedic?

Sure. And if you're dog ate a nail, there's still no good reason why you shouldn't start with telemedicine. Exactly. Yeah. Have that initial call. Yeah. The vet will walk you through it. And then you'll know, do I go to ER or not?

Exactly. It doesn't have to be in either or a situation. Right. We had a family dog who ate a pin recently. Oh. A needle. You know, a sewing needle. And, you know, obviously that's a brick and mortar situation.

Yes. The dog passed it without any problems, which is kind of. The canine digestive track is a wonder. Wow. All kinds of things. Mops, pine cones, sewing needles, emerge from it. But it still would have been worth calling initially. Like, why not?

Totally, why not? It takes, before Dutch, there's a poison hotline that's like $75 just for that first call. Yes. And you don't even know. who you're going to get, and that's what people will do, because again, if that's what you need to do, that's what you'll do. But there's definitely ways to talk to a human being veterinarian very quickly, even that for much less, and definitely much less than having to spend $1,000 in ER. I had a case where my dog, I thought he was having a seizure, and I really, I mean,

I really freaked out, and I got on Dutch, and the vet says he's doing reverse sneezing. Reverse sneezing. I never heard of that in my life, and she showed me videos of reverse sneezing, and it looked exactly like what he was going through. And like I said, I was literally about to grab him drive to ER, and she totally calmed me down, and made me realize it was completely right that's oh what a great example we just had a dog we've had a dog eat marijuana in the park we had a dog um eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in the woods totally the dog has been tripping ever since those four years ago the dog is still seeing trails um

wonderful dog woke up with the dog this morning um but in both cases um there really was no treatment at all. And in both cases, those dogs were bundled up and taken to the vet, which did not, not again, I love the vet. I'm not against the vet, to be clear, but it didn't help at all because it's just, there's no remedy. Right. There's a time and a place for everything. Right. And I think telemedicine is just a part of the overall experience. I don't think anyone's going to say it needs to replace the, and it won't happen because it hasn't happened in human care. But I think it's another option for people to get a peace of mind and to have an option that's way more affordable. And we are seeing so many dogs, like I said, being given up, or people who are saying,

I don't think I can have a dog in my life. That sucks. Well, that's a tragedy, especially people with children need to have dogs, I think. Totally. It's been, yeah, for us, my kids are little Eddie the Corgi. They love him so much. Oh, yeah. It's the best. Can I also say it's really good for your immune system to be around dogs? Yeah, I think I've seen studies. Really? Yeah.

When our first child, who's 31, came home from the hospital after being born, both of our dogs, our spaniel jumped up and lick the dog, lick the child's in the mouth. Child's never been sick. It's just a fact. Yeah, I think it definitely, I feel like I've seen stuff that shows. Really? Yeah, that you get that immunity. I'm pretty sure.

We've always, since I was born, we've always, my family's always been committed to that. Like, you've got to have a lot of dogs around and you stay healthy and everyone's been really healthy. I think that matters. So, again, I feel a little weird interviewing you because you've advertised in our show and all that. But I just, I just felt it so strongly. I feel like this is such a good thing. And I think there are a lot of viewers of this who would agree. And so I just, it was sincere.

Thank you. Well, I think when you first called me, it was, hey, I like dogs, this makes sense. And I think I already, I was like, Tucker's got to know this conspiracy that's happening because it's such baloney and it's so unfair and so few people kind of, like I said, know how monopolistic it is. And I thought that your listeners and you could help us because I think. We're the Goliath in this fight, right? With the David. Yes. And it needs people to understand how crazy the situation is for both for veterinarians who, like I said, feel scared to do telemedicine, as well as for pet owners who can't afford it.

And it all has to do with these trade associations who are keeping and using their monopoly power to keep the loss from changing. So I think that whole part, you had no idea what's going on. I had literally no idea. And again, for us at this age, you know, the cost is not the main barrier for us. The barrier is the dog, it's just so much suffering for the dogs to go to the vet. And sometimes there's no choice, and I get it. But if we can avoid that, we would just be so thankful to avoid it. And your dogs.

So it's dutch.com. Yep. D-U-T-C-H. Well, I'm sure I'll be attacked for insider dealing, but it's not. I think you'd advertise with us no matter what, but I just wanted you to be able to say all of that at length, so I'm grateful that you did. Thank you, yes. Joe Spector.

Thank you. Thank you.