The Tucker Carlson Show - The Shocking Reality of the Treatment of Christians in the Holy Land by the US-Funded Israeli Government

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

How does the US-funded Israeli government treat Christians in the Holy Land? We asked some. Listen carefully to their accounts. This will shock you. Paid partnerships with: SimpliSafe: Claim 50% off any new system by visiting https://simplisafe.com/TUCKER  Charity Mobile: A pro-life company serving pro-life customers and supporting pro-life causes for 30 years. Use promo code TUCKER to get a free phone with free activation, free shipping, and a free gift with every new line of service at https://charitymobile.com/Tucker TCN: Watch 'Replacing Europe: Following the World's Deadliest Migration Route,' dropping January 20 only on https://TuckerCarlson.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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a monarchy called Jordan. And that's significant, particularly now, because the question of how Christians are treated in the Holy Land is a political question. And it is because much of what happens in this region is funded by the United States, by its taxpayers, military action, but also the cultural and religious life of the region is funded to a great extent by American Christian churches. And so the question that we've asked for some time now is, what's the outcome? How are Christians in the Holy Land doing? Are they thriving or are they suffering? And the truth has become pretty obvious over the past couple of years, which is, in Israel, they are not thriving.

Their numbers are not growing. They are shrinking, and there's a huge debate about why, but the bottom line is there are fewer Christians now, far fewer, in absolute numbers and particularly as percentage of population than there were when the state was founded in 1948. And there's a lot of evidence in the last couple of years, particularly since the Gaza War started, and the whole tone of the conversation in this area has changed quite a bit,

and the rise of extremism, very noticeable, that those numbers have gotten even smaller. And in Jerusalem, if you follow this at all on the Internet, you see video clip after video clip of Christian clergy being spit at by religious extremists, not Muslim religious extremists, but Jewish religious extremists. And that's something most Americans didn't know happened, didn't think could happen,

particularly since the United States, the most important Christian country in the world, is funding this. and anyone who's raised this question, this show has done that, has been dismissed out of hand as a liar or an anti-Semite or best of all, a secret jihadi, a secret Muslim, you must be a Muslim.

And so we thought it would be worth coming here to find out what the truth is, or at least getting closer to the truth, the truth being pretty elusive, usually in political terms, but why not go ahead and talk to people? Why not go ahead and talk to Christians and find out their side of the truth? the story. Why aren't Christian churches doing this? Why aren't American Christian leaders like

Mike Huckabee or Ted Cruz, people who invoke the Christian Bible to justify what they're doing? Why haven't they done this? We can only guess, but they haven't. They have funded the other side. So we thought, let's talk to them. So we are about to play interviews that we just did about five minutes ago with two Christians from this area. One was born in Israel, one was born in Jordan. The one born in Israel was born, in fact, in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth. His father was literally a carpenter, which is kind of hilarious. He is now the Anglican Archbishop of Jerusalem, which is to say he's the representative of the Anglican Church, the global Anglican Church, in Jerusalem. Whatever you think of the Anglican Church, it's not a small thing, and this is a very well-informed

person. And you can judge for yourself whether he's telling the truth or not. Our view is, he absolutely is telling the truth. And the story that he's going to tell you in just a minute is pretty shocking if you're a Western Christian because it's a story of Christians being oppressed in Jerusalem by a government that American Christians pay for. And the second person we're going to speak to

is a businessman runs a bank here in Jordan from a very prominent Christian family. And if you're an American, you may be surprised to learn that in Jordan, a country that's probably 97% Muslim, Christians who've been here for, of course, 2,000 years, are disproportionately represented at the higher end of the economy, which is to say there's a large number of Christian families who are hugely successful in Jordan

and have been for a long time since the creation of the state about 100 years ago. That's not something you're going to see on CNN. How would Christians thrive in a Muslim country? And we're not experts on this, of course, being not that well-versed in Islam, but we thought it would be worth talking to a sincere Christian, whose family's been here for 2,000 years, and ask, how did that happen? And what does it tell us about our understanding of what's actually happening in the Holy Land, in Jordan, the West Bank, and Israel, which, again, is right there. We are 25 miles from Jerusalem. And so with that, keep an open mind, listen carefully to what sincere Christians in this area have to say about what's happening here. And you may find a story that shocks you. Archbishop, thank you.

You live in Jerusalem, but we're on the other side. We're about 100 yards from Israel across the West Bank, across the Jordan. How are Christians doing in the Holy Land? You know, Christians in the Holy Land, of course, have been here for, 2000 years. Yes. And over the history, the Christian community has thrived in phases, you know, like declined in others, but I think now we are on the declining end of our Christian presence in the Holy Land. In general, we're still living our faith, witnessing to our communities, and also trying to kind of maintain our presence. And I'm sorry to say that because maintaining,

because maintenance is not on the good side of things. No, it's not growth. It's not growth, not thriving, it's not accomplishing and achieving. We are custodians of the Christian faith and Jerusalem is the capital of our faith. It's our spiritual capital as Christians. But to see the declining numbers of Christians over the decades, and especially since like 48 and 67, We have seen challenging phases of Christians facing realities that we were not used to before.

So, 1948 was the year that the political state of Israel was created. That's correct. And a huge percentage of the average population was expelled that year. In 1967, the Six-Day War increased the territory of the state, and the majority is now called occupied territory. were there big declines after both of those in the Christian population? Absolutely. So you can think about, you know, the Christian population, it dwind into half in 48 because many people had to leave what is my home land, you know, like where I grew in Nazareth,

in Galilee. Half of the Palestinian population had to be expelled to other places. And who became refugees? So when we speak about Palestinian refugees today, they are all coming or came from what is proper Israel today. What I think most Americans don't understand is that some large number of those refugees who were expelled by force from their land were Christian. Yeah, there are many Christians, absolutely. Let me tell you something. Our congregation in Beirut, All Saints, is 90% they come from Haifa, Akko, Nazareth,

and other places around Galilee. You know, 90% of, imagine, of the Anglican community in Beirut are Palestinian Christians who come from Galilee. Getting older can make you realize you don't actually want all the things you have. That's why mini storage is so big. Consumerism kind of loses its appeal. What you really want is peace, peace of mind. And what's the best way to get that? Well, keeping your home and family protective would be at the top of the list.

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it means someone who's an Islamist, basically. But you're saying that a lot of those Palestinians, refugees, were Christians, Anglicans, even. No, absolutely. I think there are many places in the world where people can use words that mean something really horrific. Yes. But I think that's demonizing. For me, that's demonizing. Well, it sounds also untrue. Absolutely. Because, you know, like, I think when you speak about Palestinians, I'm Palestinian. I'm an archbishop. Do I look terrorist to you? Like, you're like an applicant, actually. Yeah, so I think, you know, like this is, again, this is like a, again, this is like a,

kind of killing the image of the Palestinian people by claiming that they are terrorists or they are uncivilized or they are savages or, you know, I think this is exactly just pushing an agenda where they just want to frame you so that Palestinians lose sympathy in the world. That's basically what it is. What's striking to me is that that narrative, as you said, that image is being pushed not just by Jewish supporters of Israel, but in the United States, heavily by you. Christian supporters of Israel. Christian supporters of Israel in the U.S. are dismissing their brother Christians in this region as terrorists. I totally agree. There are lots of agendas. And especially

like Christian, many Christians around the world, you know, who who think that they are doing favor to the Jewish people. Yes. And I have like really kind of two full answer to that. The first one is about Jews themselves. You know, as we know, like, you know, there are many Jewish people, people of faith, who see in these groups also as people who really don't work for their interest. You know, we know what dispensilation, let me just get that one. Dispensationalism, maybe? We know what dispensationalism is about.

I know that, you know, politicians around the world, and especially like the colonial... thinking of bringing the Jewish people to the Holy Land or to the land of Israel is something that can really kind of fit both agendas. But actually, and we have heard this time and time again from many Jewish people who say that this agenda eventually, you know, for all the Jewish people coming to their homelands, you know, becomes again a kind of like a trap because they're all supposed to convert to Christianity or die. Right. So, So for them, this is an offense, you know, that thinking of Zionist Christian thinking and that some narratives would be damaging even to Jewish people and Jewish faith.

Now, for us as Christians, of course, it's damaging because think about like, let me let me tell you a story, a real story. I once was in a kind of a community visiting England and I was speaking about, you know, like how some, Christians who have Zionist approach to the whole politics and agendas, you know, can be damaging to us as Christians in the Hoyland. And they say, how come? I said, you know, because this agenda of money coming from the West, sometimes, you know, like they enable people, settlers, you know, to confiscate my own land. Like we have lots of examples in Bethlehem where money that comes from around the world is

invested in building settlements on Christian land. You know what the answer was? They told me sometimes we need to make a sacrifice for a better good, a greater good. Can you imagine that answer? Christians told you this? Yeah, yeah, Christian, you know, who somebody told me this. And I had a youth group with me. I'm telling you, they were in tears.

They were in tears. How can a Christian brother or sister around the world take me as kind of means, no matter what happens to me, how can I really reconcile myself with this? So from this story, I'm telling you that, you know, these views sometimes are damaging because, you know, they are exclusive. I'm not judging, you know, like Christian Zionists for their belief. They can believe what they want to believe. But when it comes to exclusion, excluding Palestinians, whether they are Christian or Muslim. Right.

You know, I think this is where my problem lies in their ideology, if you know what I mean. It doesn't sound, I mean, I think we can say that Christianity does not support violence. Of course not. Right. Of course, we condemn violence whatever. Of course. Whatever it is. And I think Jesus is pretty clear on that.

Absolutely. Could not be clearer. So for a Christian to say, I support violence against other Christians. because that's what Jesus wants. Does that strike you as valid? How can that be? Indeed, and this is why, you know, we always say that, you know, like Christianity

is about bringing people together. It's about forgiveness, reconciliation, peace building. You know, these are the values, the kind of the core values of Christianity. And if we fail as Christians to do that, to bring people together, we are God's people,

we are God's children, whoever we may be. Yes, we have our beliefs, we have where we stand, but we as Christians, we know that, and we have been saying this all along. For 2,000 years, Christians have been witnessing to this truth from the beginning. And, you know, that's why we continue to exist here. Despite, you know, like the long history, our holy sites are our anchor here in the Holy Land. So you are a Christian from Nazareth. Yes.

Jesus' hometown. Yes. What did your father do? No, my dad was a carpenter. I knew that. I just wanted to hear you say, because it's so fun. You know, but we were also like, we are fishermen. So if you ask me what you do for a hobby,

that I would be like fishing would be my. Amazing. No, it's just, I mean, you are a Christian from Nazareth in Galilee. Amazing. Compare Nazareth, it's Christian population, to your childhood to now. Are there more Christians in Nazareth now? fewer? No, they are, if they aren't fewer, let me say, like 50 years ago, I think they have not grown. Yes. Especially recently, like, you know, in the last maybe two decades, we have seen,

like, an exodus of Christians even from Nazareth and Galilee in general, due to many reasons. And we are talking now what is proper Israel today. Now, in the West Bank is a different story because of the occupation, there is another narrative there. But inside Israel, today there are so many pressures, not only on Christians, Christians, or even some Jewish people who are also leaving the country for different reasons. Yes, I see. How much aid, how much money do Christians around the world send to Christians living in Nazareth?

Very minimal. Very minimal. Yeah. How, really? You know, the Anglican church, of course, we have partners around the world. Yes. And especially like in the States, we have the American friends of the Diocese of Jerusalem, Anglican. And they're doing fantastic support.

But if you kind of compare the amount of money that comes to the other side, we are talking about a drop in the ocean. Really? Yeah. So Christian churches in the United States, send more money to say Jewish settlements in the West Bank than they do to Christians in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth? That's not a secret. That's not a secret. Everybody knows that. Yeah. What about Bethlehem? Now Bethlehem is a different challenge there. I don't know if you have visited Bethlehem before, but you would see that the city is surrounded

by the wall, the separation wall that separates, you know, East Jerusalem, Jerusalem from Bethlehem. And the occupation and the kind of the world that separates the two countries now and also measures, in huge measures of restrictions, of movement, and all of that is causing many people to leave the country. And now I think imagine like 100,000 Christians in Bethlehem, let's say 50 years ago or so, today we have less than 30,000. Really?

Yeah, a huge drop. Do they receive aid from American Christian churches? Not to my knowledge. They might receive like projects here and there, but you know, like substantial money to keep their businesses. You know, I just want you to go now, especially during the war, the Gaza War. In the last two years, go to Bethlehem and see what is happening there.

I don't think I could. The little town of Bethlehem is being. bleeding right now. There's no business, no tourists, no visitors. I don't understand. So the American Christian Church is, broadly speaking, the church, Christians in the United States, is by far the richest in the world and the biggest. And why wouldn't they send help to Christians in the town where Jesus was born and the town that he grew up? You know, I'm sure that, you know, people may have different answers, but I think my answer would be the kind of big answer, would be which could be shocking for some people. That is that they would be concerned that they send the money and it

ends up with the hands of the wrong people. You know, like, let's be honest about this. Well, if there's, let's just say, and I think that's a concern for everybody giving money to charity. It's certainly a concern for me in general. Yeah. But if there's, say, a church, the church of the nativity, the one that the IDF shot people in. Yeah. I've been there and it's kind of falling apart. And I remember thinking, where are the Christians around the world to support the church of the nativity on the site where Jesus their Savior was born? Indeed. And that's why, you know, I just don't understand that. You know, I don't understand that either.

But let me tell you something like, you know, an example, like how charity starts at home. You know, we know that our king here in Jordan, King Abdullah, has donated substantial amount of money to the repair of the nativity and the Holy Society. And the same thing happened also partially with the Palestinian Authority. And also there are money that came also from partners from Europe and other places as well. But you know the amount of money, as you said, like, you know, and the charity that you think that could be given to the Christian community to enforce and, you know, maintain its presence in the Holy Land. You don't see that in ways that you could imagine.

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and the West Bank. Yeah. Tell us how that arrangement works. Why would that be a Muslim king's responsibility? Yeah. So there's something here in the Holy Land has been for a long time, what we call the status quo or the existing reality, especially on holy sites, on Haram Sharif,

many people in the West call it Temple Mount, and also in the Holy Sepulchre. And the holy sites in Jerusalem. The Church of Holy Sepulchre is the place where Jesus is tomb. Yeah, which is the Church of the Resurrection, what we call in Arabic as well, Canista al-Qiami. So for a long time, the King of Jordan,

under the Hashemite custodianship of holy sites, the King personally is the custodian of holy sites of Christian and Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem. So the King of Jordan is the custodian of both Alaksa, Mosque and of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. That's correct. And that remains the case today. That remains the case today and it will remain for a long time.

Even though it's extremely difficult for Jordanians to go the 25 miles over there to Jerusalem. That's correct. So I think, you know, like people like myself and the heads of churches, as well as Al-Aukov and the sheikhs in Jerusalem, we will be the manifestation of that reality, of that custodian ship. It's just so interesting. Why does that persist today? And is that a good arrangement, the status quo that you described?

Of course, it's not only good, but I think for us, it saves the character of Jerusalem where the three face, both Christianity, Judaism and Islam, can exist side by side without any problems. Wouldn't it be easier just to hand the custodianship over to the government that runs it, which is the Israeli government? It's political capitals in Jerusalem? That will be partial. and it will be exclusive.

How do you think Christian holy sites would do and Muslim holy sites would do? You know, we have, let me give you an example where, you know, like the Holy Sepulchre, for different reasons, we, for a long time, during Holy Saturday, which is the Holy Fire, one of the most sacred days in the Christian calendar. Yes. Of course, this is the night before Easter. Yes. You know, the restrictions that the police there enforce on pilgrims is,

unprecedented, you know, it's something that, you know, we always a plea that please, you know, let the pilgrims come and enjoy. Now this is happening? This is happening every year. Now, yes, of course. Last year. So just to be clear, the Israeli government is preventing Christians from celebrating Easter in Jerusalem? You know, yes, they are preventing Christians and pilgrims to celebrating Easter,

you know, and the claim is, according to the police there, for safety reasons. You know, but we're telling them, like, you know, for almost next, The Church of the Holy Sepulchars was built in 300-something. Okay, now that's 1700 years ago. And we have always celebrated the Holy Fire. We always celebrated and welcome Easter. We didn't hear of somebody get banned or somebody got like stampede. They're Christian. Pilgrims are not terrorists.

Indeed. And then, but you know, now under the kind of Israeli law for safety procedures, they are restricting the number of Christians going into the Holy Sepulter instead of 10,000, they are restricting that sometimes to 1,500. And by negotiation, you can get them close to like 3,000. This is by miracle, you know, if you're lucky. You know, again, you know, for them to be fair, they're saying that for safety reasons we're not allowing people in.

And this is the discussion every other. Are there similar restrictions on Jewish religions' observances in Jerusalem? In Israel, generally, they are being some. They've been an incident in the north in Maroon where people like Hasidic community were celebrating a very famous holy site. Yes. And the bridge collapsed and 150 people died. Oof. And since that time, they were restricting more and more public worship.

And I will tell you an incident as well, you know, like we're on the Mount of Tabor, which is the Transfiguration Mountain, that the Holy Orthodox Church celebrates. every year. Also, there's been restrictions there because of safety, not to allow pilgrims to go to the Holy Mountain for the celebration of Transfiguration. This is the fourth year in rule that they're not allowed to pilgrims to go up for the celebration, again under safety restrictions. Have there been in your lifetime safety problems with Christians celebrating Eastern Jerusalem? Not to my knowledge. So the U.S. ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, is a Christian minister.

What has he done to help Christians celebrate Easter in Jerusalem? We are in touch with the American embassy, and we are also trying to kind of ask Hagebe and also the staff in the embassy to help the Christian community talk to Israel in order to enlarge the numbers of people who celebrate Easter. You know, sometimes they are successful in raising the number. Sometimes they are not successful.

But again, the issue, again, this is an internal matter. Have you spoke... Right, but our ambassador's very involved in internal matters in Israel, of course. Have you spoken to Ambassador Huckabee? Bleeds him from afar, you know, but other heads of churches have spoken to him, yes.

But he hasn't called you? It hasn't called me personally, no. have American politicians called since the U.S. is funding a lot of this have American politicians, Christian politicians called to ask you what they can do to help Christians in Jerusalem? You know, we reach out, they reach out,

especially like, you know, talking about different issues. Like, let me give you an example. You know, I'm trying to kind of get to my hospital in Gaza, for example. Yes. And I'm trying to kind of get permission to go there, but I'm not allowed. To go to your hospital in Gaza?

Yes. Why? You see, I have an Israeli citizenship because I come from Nazareth, so I'm an Israeli citizen. You are an Israeli. Yeah, well, yes. But, you know, at the same time,

so basically I'm not allowed in according to their calculations. Why? So I try to ask, you know, the kind of our friends from the American embassy and other places in order to intervene, but the answer is no.

So Huckabee hasn't helped you get to your Christian hospital in Gaza? I don't want to blame Huggabee for this, you know, but again... He's the ambassador. No, I know you have to be diplomatic. I just, I'm just surprised that someone who, you know, is a minister, isn't doing more for Christians in this region. Yeah, again, but again, it's about my safety, I guess. Your safety.

Would you feel unsafe going to Gaza? Absolutely not. I've been to Gaza many, many times. And actually, two days before the war, I was there with bishops. You know, we visited the hospital and I would visit, I've been trying to visit the hospital, you know. Others were successful, like other heads of churches,

managed to go there, both patriarchs, but I haven't, unfortunately. It's a Christian hospital. It's an Anglican, Episcopal, a Christian hospital. What is the name of that? Al-Ahali Arab Hospital. What kind of condition is it in? It is now kind of a condition that,

that operates on minimal capacity. I'm sure that people have been following. I don't know how many people know about this, but it was hit at least eight times during the war. It was bombed eight times? Yeah. Why? You know, there are different accusations.

Why did it happen? You know, I kind of suspect, say, no, suspicion about, like, activities in the hospital. And every time we asked for people to kind of prove, you know, what was happening. there so that we at least know what is going on in our hospital, but every time we hear nothing. And, you know, unfortunately... Were people killed in those bombings?

You know, on two incidents, there have been two big explosions. The first one happened only two weeks after the... or even less than two weeks from the beginning on the 17th of October 2003, where a huge rocket fell and it became really controversy. Israel accused Islamic jihad for a misrocketed missile. You know, in Gaza, they said, no, it was Israeli rocket that came in, and they were two narratives at that time. Anyway, but this is the kind of thing that we had.

Do we know the answer now? No, I don't know the answer. People ask me, and I said, like, do I look like a soldier to you that to tell you what happened there? Well, it's your government. You were born in the country, and you can't get a straight answer about your hospital? No. No, it was their answer was that, you know, it was a misrocketed missile.

But it was bombed seven more times? Yeah. Do we know who did that? No, the other ones, you know, Israelis did that. They didn't comment on that. Did they not know it was a hospital? They know it was a hospital. Why would they bomb a hospital?

A Christian hospital. Again, you know, but as I said, you know, they say when they do that, that there is suspicion of terrorist activities in the hospital. You can see all these people here, they just came out of the dunes. We've got to be around 100 of them. And now a boat's going to try to come around and pick them up. In a single generation, Europe has changed forever. This is the result of decades of mass migration, more than it has in the last 2,000 years.

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The score bet. Trusted sports content, seamless sports betting. Download today. 19 plus, Ontario only. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or the gambling of someone close to you, please go to conixontario.ca. How many people have been killed in Gaza? Now we know that, you know, I think I just read recently

that even the government admitted that there's 70,000 who were killed, which they didn't before. But I need to kind of, again, my sources are not kind of 100%, but at least from our perspective, we have heard and we have seen that there's 70,000 people who were killed, many of them are children and women, not terrorists according to Israeli categories. Do we have any idea what percentage were women and children? You know, there are statistics up there, but I'm sure the vast majority are women and children.

Is it possible to know? Who can go to Gaza? At some point, I think it's fair to ask, like, what happened over the last couple of years in Gaza? Are we ever going to know? you know like you know I'm sure that we will know in one way or the other but again I think the the catastrophe that happened there nothing will heal I just kind of just by seeing the amount of destruction and the death happened there it just breaks one's heart yes there are no words and again you know I'm sure that no people will know like who did it and why they did it and how did it come and you know but But for us, you know, the bottom line, there are people who are suffering, there are people who are dying, and that's the result of violence, you know, and which is devastating for us.

How are you treated in Israel? Depending where you live, where you are, where you're walking. So I think, you know, in many places in Israel, where you are respected, there's freedom of movement, I can go in most places. There are places that are restricted to any civilian, if you know what I mean. Yes. But, you know, in general, I can go in many places. You know, if I'm walking in the old city, for example, if I'm in my suit, all good and well, you know, of course, the mosaic is so beautiful there.

People living together, walking together. You would enjoy the souk. But sometimes if I'm wearing my cross and my cassock, I could be treated differently by some groups. How are you treated? I could maybe could spat at, for example. Is someone ever spit at you? Yes. Really? Yeah. More than once? More than once. Yeah. Why? I just, I think, you know, I asked this question why. And in many cases, I have seen that, you know, like in many schools in the Jewish sector, who have, this is the answer that I receive, who have bad flashes of memories of persons. The cross reminds them of persecution and expulsion and what have you.

So they're teaching their children that the cross is a sign of persecution and spit on Christians? Yeah. And you know, we know that, you know, there are so many, not many, but there are some. And these are French groups that we have as heads of churches spoke about. When there's vandalism of churches, when there is spitting at clergy, when there is doing nothing. doing nasty things to clergy. What kind of nasty things? And I've kind of

saying that on the air. I don't know, I say, but they're doing like really shameful things, you know, in front of church doors. Really? Yeah, yeah. I'm being caught on camera many times. Oh, you act like this, everyone knows this. I don't think many people in America know this,

to Christian churches and Christian clergy. Yeah, and again, you know, these are like French group of people who are radicals, you know, who live in Jerusalem. Their main mission is to purify Jerusalem from infidels Christians. That's their mission. And they say it out loud, it's on their website, you know, it's nothing hidden about this. Are you talking about Al-Qaeda or? No, no, I'm talking about Jewish radical groups, settler groups, yeah. Do you face vandalism from Islamic groups in Jerusalem?

No, not too minor, no. We don't have, we don't have in Jerusalem? Yes. No. So in the United States, after 9-11, we were told, and I think it was true, that there were these madrasas, these schools, Islamic schools that were producing radicalism, true radicalism, against the infidel Christians and Jews.

It sounds like something similar is going on in Jerusalem now, and you're the target of it. Can you talk? I mean, that's clearly bad. Can you, is there anyone you can talk to about this? Yeah, we've talked to the police, we've talked to the government. And there are restrictions, you know, the one thing about, you know, this, you know, that we were said, that told, you know, that spitting on people is not a charge. We need to have a law that forbids this or there will be a kind of punishment to somebody who spits or something like that. So there's no law.

So the people brought if you press charges, they bring them in and they release the next day. There's no law in Israel against spitting on Christians? No, I'm spitting in general, not on Christians. But you can walk up and spit in someone's face for religious reasons. No, that's something different. And the spitting doesn't happen, like, you know, directly at you. So like if I'm passing, they would be spitting like in front of you, like, but it's directed to you, but not on you person.

They don't touch you. They don't touch you. How common is that? I don't know. I don't have statistics, but... No, but in your experience, you live there. Quite often, you know, like it happens. You know, I don't say on daily basis, but, you know, it happens quite often. Even an Israeli channel did actually one time a kind of secret investigation,

and they dressed somebody in a castle with a cross, and they walked into the old city with hidden cameras. And, you know, they caught one, like, right there on camera. And then they spoke about it in Israeli channels. Good for them. Yeah, of course. You know, they name some, sometimes quite often they name things. But again, nothing happens.

That's the problem, like, you know. And that's why we have insisted on talking about reconciliation and building trust within the community. You know, calling the rabbis and, you know, the imams and the Christian leaders, you know, to teach their children about tolerance, about acceptance, and to refrain from incitement. No, an exclusion and alienation and demonizing the other. No, Jerusalem is such a beautiful place.

It's a sacred place. Yes, it is. But we have, you know, like groups, and talking about, you know, like, you know, extremists, you know, like in every religion there is extremists. Of course. And we're not saying that, you know, like only one. our Christian history is not, you know, like,

neither clear or pure of... We've had some Christian extremists for sure. Indeed. But, you know, that's why, you know, today, I think, in the 21st century, it's important that we reconsider a lot of our views, even as religious people, how we view other people around us. Yes. And I wish, that's my prayer.

You know, we have always said, you know, like, the Middle East, Christians, Muslims and Jews live together here for centuries. Yes. This is not something that knew that we're trying to understand. No. How to live together or how to manage our relationships? No, but unfortunately, I don't want to kind of accuse anybody, but outside forces have caused us to fight among ourselves. I've noticed.

Unfortunately, that's what that's how we said. So has the extremism in Jerusalem, I mean, just to restate, you were born in the state of Israel, you're an Israeli citizen, so you would know, has it become more pronounced? Is there more extremism now, do you think? There's more extremism, extremism, and I can see, and that's on every side. Yeah, that happens. The thing that, you know, the more you have extremist group on one side, the more you have the response of other extremists on the other side. So it happens all across the communities, unfortunately.

But right now it seems like there's no Christian extremism. I haven't seen any Christian terrorism groups here. I wouldn't say like terrorist groups Christian, but there are some who have extremist views. Yes. We see pockets coming up every now and then. I'm sure. But we as heads of churches always say and talk to our children.

You know, don't forget that you are Christian and you have to abide by our Christian faith. you know like any engagement in violence or military or ensignment is something that does not speak about our identity or our faith do christians serve in the idf there are very very few who do not not many why why they do serve why don't they serve no because they're born a citizen they see they see themselves as um first of all it's not compulsory for them huh so it's It's not compulsory for Arab citizens of Israel to serve in the army, and therefore they don't. But there are very few who do.

And again, you know, let's remember that the Arabs inside Israel, they are Palestinians. By origin, at least, there are Palestinians, you know. And imagine, like, you know, I served Naples, which is Shechem in the West Bank, and in the city in the northern part of the West Bank. And I was responsible for two communities. congregations there and I got married from Nablus so my wife is Palestinian and imagine like you know if if I you know I would be like a soldier in the West Bank rather than a priest in the West Bank how would I treat my own people like it doesn't

make sense you know for me it's just to think about the matter is just kind of makes me I don't know faint maybe what's happening a lot of attention the United States has been paid to Gaza, some attention. What's happening in the West Bank? In the West Bank, I think, you know, and we have seen over the past few weeks, especially, and actually not only a few weeks, you know, even during the war, the escalation of violence of settlers

in the West Bank has risen drastically. And not only to kind of, Muslim neighborhoods and villages, but also to Christian villages. Really? Yeah. Can you give me an example? Yeah, I can give you an example of... The two recent examples is one in the town of Taipei, where actually you mentioned Ambassador Hacabee.

He himself went there to visit the village after these attacks of settlers burning and graffiti on walls and going into these farms. to harass farmers who are Christian and recently also in Beerset near Ramallah where we had an attack of settlers on a woman they hit her with a stone head and then they arrested her son after that why did they arrest her son because he tried to defend her like his mother and because of that you know he he was arrested and these are Christians yeah he is Christian how many uh U.S. administration officials weighed in on this.

Did Ambassador Huckabee say anything about this? No, he definitely said something about Taipei. I haven't seen anything about the last incident, but he went there in person, actually, and visited the police. But the most recent attack where a Christian woman was attacked by settlers with a rock to the head and her son was arrested for trying to defend her.

Ambassador Huckabee hasn't said anything about that. I didn't see anything myself, but he could either. You would know since you're the archpenter. Bishop in Jerusalem, I think. I'm sorry, I just want to, I just want to be very clear about his shameful anti-Christian behavior. I just want to be very clear about what I'm saying. What Ambassador Huckabee is doing is shameful, and he's going to have to answer for it. So if that's my opinion, you don't have to ratify that.

But it's shocking to me. So more broadly, why would these attacks be accelerating? Why would there be more attacks now? I think the less the IDF and the Israeli government persecutes those who do these shameful actions, which I called evil and sin, actually. The more they do, that's the norm, unfortunately. Let me just close by contrasting your experience in your country,

Israel, where you live, with the experience in Jordan. are there attacks on Christians in Jordan? That question makes me laugh, first of all, you know. Well, in the United States, we were told that Christians are murdered in the Middle East by Muslims. This is a country run by a Muslim king. And so it would be interesting to know how many Christians are driven off their land here. You know, they're quite often, you know, I see on the TV or even in many reports, you know, many people when they see us in the streets sometimes,

a few people who see us in the streets, sometimes in Jerusalem or other places, they will tell us as Arabs, please go to Syria, go to Jordan, go to... Why are you staying here? They tell... They ask us this question. You know what? To you?

Yeah, to me and to others, you know, any Arab. Many people will say, like, why are you staying here? I just go to an Arab country. say that to your face? Yeah, they would say that to my face. And, and, you know, like, honestly speaking, you know, sometimes, you know, and I'm saying that sarcastically, of course, you know, I think about it and I think they are right because, you know, when I come to Jordan, I feel more at home than being in other places inside, you know, in my own home country,

honestly. How long has your family been in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth? For, I, you know, I, I, I wish I have my family three goes going back to the time of Jesus, but I think, you know, you remind me of a question, if I may paraphrase your question. He said, when people, I tell people that I'm Christian from Nazareth, and they tell me, oh, nice, this is really cool. So when were you converted? So I tell them 2,000 years ago. That's my answer.

Like, you know, come on, Christianity started in places like the baptism side. here like Bethlehem, like Nazareth where the angel appeared to Mary. Jesus is from Nazareth. He is from Nazareth. Mary is from Nazareth. But you know, so that's it's ignorance. Again, it's ignorance. And sometimes it's deliberate, intentional ignorance even. It's all pretty amazing. Does that happen to you when you're in Jordan? Because there are of course holy sites here we're at one right now. You know, again I said like I feel I feel blessed. to where I am. When I travel in my own diocese, I go to Lebanon, I come here to Jordan, my other home. I'm also a Jordanian. I consider myself a Jordanian citizen by virtue of being responsible

in this place for my community. But honestly speaking, like whenever I come to this place, Jordan, Lebanon even, I feel like, you know, this is my home. I feel myself like fulfilled. I know that I'm free in this country. I can be myself without being worrying that I would be spat at or... But Jordan is 98% Muslim. Yes. But you feel freer here? I feel, yeah, of course.

At this point in time, yes. I do free. Do you have a message to Christians in the United States? No, I have a message, yes, to say that, you know, my dear sister, and brothers in Christ and in humanity. I want you to think about these places as treasures. Now these places, Jordan, Palestine, you know, the Galilee inside what Israel today, these are places that actually embraced the descent and the incarnation of our faith as Christians.

We need to preserve these places. We need to support the people here. Not only Christians, I'm not saying like we need to be. only looking at Christians, but supporting people who live here because your support, you know, ensures the character of these places to be a safe home for all the people who live here, whether they are Jews, Christians, Muslims. That's right. Because we are all God's children.

We have been living together here for a long time. And please, you know, I just want to say a small example. If you want to pray for whoever whom your heart loves, okay, please don't divide you. us by your prayers. Don't further divide us by your prayers. We want you to pray for all the people of the Holy Land. Thank you, Archbishop, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. So thank you for doing this. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was even I was amazed to discover how many prominent, like truly prominent Christian families there are in Jordan, a lot, and you're from one of the most prominent. What's it like to be a Christian in an overwhelmingly Muslim

country here? Well, you know, Christians here in Jordan have always felt, you know, really one and the same with the Muslims in Jordan. And it goes back thousands of years, really, Tucker. So it's always felt like we're really one and the same. Islam is very much an integral part of our culture as Christians here. Yeah, we feel very comfortable. As Christians here. As Christians, absolutely.

So you went to school a number of very prominent schools in the United States. You spent a lot of time living in the U.S. so you know that most Americans are going to be surprised to hear that. Oh, of course. I mean, you know, a lot of my American friends when I first met them, they were surprised that, you know, I'm Christian from Jordan. And I'm like, what do you mean? I mean, this is where Christianity started, right?

This is, we are the ancient Christians. Yes. It's a bit upsetting for me. Jesus was baptized right there. Right here. I mean, this is a very special place, the baptism. site. It's very close to our hearts. It's Christians, not just here,

but all over the world. And can I say a little bit something about this site because we're here in Tucker. Yeah, so this baptism site, I mean, what most Christians are around the world, maybe sometimes forget, is here we have the

clearest manifestation in the Bible of the Holy Trinity. Right here, Tucker, where you and I are today, you know, if you remember from Bible, the voice of God, Yes. And he said, you know, this is, you know, when Jesus was being baptized by St. John, this is my son of whom I am well pleased, I think.

Yes. And then the son, right, the Holy Spirit, and the shapes in the shape of a dove. This happened here. And Christ's official mission, right, started in Jordan. So you can actually make the claim, this is not, you know, this is a biblical theological claim that the mission of Christianity, salvation history, started right here. So of course, there are Christians in Jordan. And it's just a very special place to be here. I hope you've had some time to... I've had an amazing time. I've been to this country before and I've always felt

comfortable here. And if you say that, in the West, people are either incredulous or they accuse you of being a secret Muslim or Shihadi or something, which I'm not at all. But I'm really struck that you said Islam is an integral part of the culture for Christians here. What does that mean? Well, look, it's the faith traditions are so similar. It's it's remarkable. I mean, you know, if you look at the Quran, for example, the Quran is a is Jesus was mentioned 25 plus times in the Quran and he was mentioned under different words, different

names. So, Issa is what the, his name is in Arabic. The Word of God, that's actually from the Quran, the Messiah, the Messiah, that's also Ibn Miriam, son of Mary. The other thing that you might find interesting is also the Virgin Mary, right? I mean, she was mentioned 30 plus times in the Quran. She's revered, right? Actually, she was the only, she was the only, woman whose name was actually mentioned in the Quran. No other name of a woman has many. I mean, there was... Really? Absolutely. Mariams is the only name that's named by name in the Quran as a woman.

As the mother of Jesus. As the mother of Jesus. There is a whole chapter in the Quran just dedicated for the Virgin Mary. So you can see, and of course the same prophets, many of the same prophets, whether it's Elijah or Moses or Abraham or you know they're in the Quran as they are in the you know the New Testament and the Old Testament so the faith traditions are very similar so that's why the Muslims are actually very accepting of the Christian faith traditions they are encompassing of the Christian faith traditions so yeah I mean you're saying this as a Christian I'm saying this as a Christian here in Jordan absolutely I'm in a disadvantage because I have not read the Quran. I'll just say that. But we have been taught for 25 years since 9-11

that Islam is inherently hostile to Christianity. But you don't believe that. I totally disagree with that. I think hostility is, you know, is a human thing. Yes. You know, you find humans on all sides of the spectrum that are, you know, compassionate or hostile. That's a common thing.

across humanity, across the world. But to demonize one religion to say everyone in that religion is hostile is an atrocity, Tucker. It's absolutely not true. I agree with you. Did you experience discrimination growing up here as a Christian? Never. I've never felt discriminated against as a Christian.

Of course, there's people that don't sometimes understand Christian religious tradition, and there are sometimes questions, and there are sometimes theological, of course, differences. And, you know, you can have a discussion about that and argue about that, right? But discrimination in terms of, you know, I feel at a disadvantage to be Christian here, absolutely not. So your family, I think I understand this, is at the level of prominence that you're going to have to deal with the government. Yes.

Yeah. Okay. Of course. This is a small country. It's a monarchy. You've never had any problems dealing with the government as a Christian. No. No, actually, that's a great question.

So Christians are very well represented here, as you can imagine. They're really part of the social fabric of the economy and the political environment. So Christians are represented in the Senate, in Parliament, in government, in the military, in the private sector, even though we are a minority, right? But the representation is everywhere across the world. You're a tiny minority, right? We are like probably 2, 3 percent at this stage. I'm just guessing, but it seems like if you're two or three percent of the population, you seem disproportionately represented among the affluent.

Possibly, I think maybe minorities everywhere on the world, that's the case. Yes, it is, actually. That is true. Do you think about it, right? But I don't know. I've never measured that. I don't know if there are statistics on that. But that's never been a problem, I guess, because you do see minority groups around the world, as you said. you know, the Indians in Uganda in the 70s, name a group, but the minority

group often is disproportionately successful and then they are persecuted for that. And that has not happened here. No. No, absolutely not. And there's a reason, I think, it's why it is I'll tell you, I mean, I was thinking

about sort of why is Jordan a special sort of model for that, right? Of coexistence, of interfaith harmony. I think there's three things Tucker and if these three things are there you know Christian minorities in the Holy Land they will they will thrive number one is we have constitutional rights as equal citizens it's in the Jordanian Constitution you know so Christians and Muslims here have the same rights complete equality when it comes to even matters

relating to Christian affairs whether it's marriages and you know you know see even some civil affairs There are Christian courts that are different from the Sharia courts that there are for Muslims. So there's in that sense, there's, you know, this sort of coexistence. But when it comes to, of course, civil and commercial and all of those kinds of laws, those apply to all of us equally here in Jordan. So constitutional rights are protected. That's number one.

So this is not, so Christianity is an official religion here. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, there's in the Constitution, there's freedom of worship, freedom of religion in the Constitution. So very importantly, if you want to protect Christian minorities or any minority in that regard anywhere in the world, constitutional rights have to be established. And they're established here from the very start, right? You know, when the Jordanian tribes and the Hashemites agreed to form a constitution. And they've been there since then.

So I would say that's the one, the first thing. The second thing, which I really think is important, is stability. Yeah. And the moment you don't have stability, the first to suffer are the minority. Are the weak, of course. And stability is so important. Economic stability, political stability, security, stability. That's why it's so sacred actually to ensure that there is stability in the region.

I would say the last thing is leadership. You know, we're very fortunate here to have, you know, his majesty king Ablallah and Hashemite leadership, I mean, truly, really tremendously fortunate because the Hashemites have always been about interfaith dialogue, discourse, meritocracy, compassion, mercy. So I think when you have, you know, great leadership, stability, and constitutional rights, yeah, a Christian minority can thrive, and that's what we have here. It's, and my job is not to talk of Jordan, but I've always wondered, in all of your neighbors, I spent time in all of your neighboring countries,

always say the same thing. How do you have this country with really no energy resources? It's not inherently rich. Yeah. Absorb all these refugees from the creation of Israel in 1948. I mean, enormous number, and then lose a huge part of its territory in 67, absorb more refugees,

and then absorb still more refugees through the years, including from the Civil War in Syria. And now, apparently, are being, pushed to absorb still more refugees from Gaza. I don't think any country's ever been under this kind of pressure. This is for the outsider perspective anyway. How do you stay stable in the middle of all of that? That's a great question.

I honestly, Tucker, I ask myself that all the time. And I think, you know, part of the answer is just the culture. The culture here, it's a very collectivist culture. It's a very tribal culture. you know for example the latest immigration of Syrian refugees we had I think up to 1.5 million Syrian refugees

during the Arab Spring This is a small country Is that? Yeah that's on a pro-a-based It's like 40 million people moving into the US overnight Right And that's the scale of the I mean can you imagine 40 million people All of Canada moving into the US looking for jobs

I'm laughing but And I should just say for people people don't follow this because it's a boutique question. There's a lot going on in the world, but this is interesting to me. This is all because of your geographic location. It's like, you didn't ask for this. You just happened to be surrounded by these larger powers

that decide they can use your country as like a place to store the products of their wars. Yeah, I mean, it's because it's stable. So people say, you know, just move it to Jordan and let them deal with it. And to be honest, it's been difficult because the host community, the Jordanians, I mean, they've had to.

to share resources with the refugees. They've had to share jobs, you know. We have very limited resources, as Zet Tucker, would be their financial water resources, energy resources, you know. I've sidetracked my own question. So the original question was, how do you absorb more refugees over the past 80 years than you have people?

Yeah. A lot more. And not fall apart. Look, a lot of it is, again, Hashemite leadership. It's taking care of refugees using our limited resources to support them. My understanding is we, especially with the last sort of Syrian refugees, we had a lot of support from the international community in the beginning. But over times, you know, there is donor fatigue over time. Yeah. You know, the news moves on. Right. And then the host community is stuck with

the problem. And then we have to depend on our own resources. And obviously a lot of it is just honestly us. It's local tax revenue government support. Of course, we do get some support still from international donors from the U.S. government from other places around the world. So we're grateful for that. But yeah, it's tempting to let the host community deal with this problem because sort of the news cycle has moved on to something else.

And that's a problem. It's a question I'm interested in because from the American, perspective our country feels swamped with refugees yeah but no country maybe in history has been a swamp by refugees as yours so it's just interesting to see how you've handled it yeah no I mean I think people feel very much like you know the refugees coming in here there's this moral sort of you know understanding that we have to take care of our own and just did to give you a story maybe from Jordan's history if you want to go back

even to the time of the earliest Christians, right? Because we're the ancient Christians, right? So we remember these stories. One of the Christian holy sites here in Jordan is called Pella. I don't know if you know about Pella. So that was a city in the old Roman Decapolis, right? The 10 cities, that are referred to in the New Testament.

It referred to in the New Testament, exactly. So Pella is in Jordan. It's a beautiful site. It's well preserved. That was the site of the first Christian refugees coming up. out of Jerusalem. You know, before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by General Titus, you know, all of the Christians moved to Pella, actually.

It's technically, arguably, according to archaeology, the first Christian refugee haven, and that's in Jordan. And I think this has been our history. I did not know that. Yeah, we're the land of refugees. We are very much the lander of refugees. And, yeah, that's... It's a nice story. And it's the same with Iraq. And I think when we talk about, you know, the Iraqi refugees as well a while back, Muslim and Christian moved here. And going back to sort of the point on stability, Tucker. So, you know, when you have, there was U.S. intervention, as you recalled in Iraq.

I do recall, yes. I heard about that. At the time of Saddam Hussein. And then the thing is, whenever you lose. Whenever sort of there is a vacuum, that vacuum is always filled. And sometimes it's filled with, you know, bad elements. So Al-Qaeda filled that vacuum in Iraq after 2003. And then you had, which then, of course, later became ISIS, right, down the line. So all of a sudden you had Muslim and Christians who were targeted. A lot of them came into Jordan.

And, you know, I know a priest, he specializes. and really taking care of the, especially both Muslim and Christian refugees, by the way, there's no selectivity there. They are here temporarily. They see themselves as being here temporarily until they can immigrate to other parts of the world. So they receive financial assistance schooling.

A lot of it is provided either by the state or even fundraised by the churches, the local churches, until they are able to emigrate to other parts of the world there's more economic prosperity and stability and jobs. So you're a Christian, you are 25 miles away from the most famous and important church in Christendom, and you've been one time in 50 years? Yeah, I need, I mean, obviously, it's, first of all,

I can't just go there. I need a visa as a Jordanian. It's something that you have to apply for. How hard is it to get? Yeah, it's a process, and you have to apply. I can't recall how difficult it was to get the visa at the time, but also, you know, there's some security considerations. What does that mean?

I mean, I, you know, you see what's happening there now. How comfortable would Christians be or non-Christians even visiting the holy sites now? I'm totally confused. Those holy sites don't belong to the state of Israel, which is a political entity of very recent creation. Those holy sites are the center of our religion. they long predate by thousands of years the creation of the state of Israel. So why wouldn't any Christian have a right to visit his own church?

Yeah, I agree. That's my perspective as the person who's paying for all this. I agree with you. I think there's an angle I'd like to focus on here. So, you know, the Hashemites are very much the custodians of the Christian and the Muslim sites in Jerusalem. And I think maybe that if you allow me Tucker, I think that's something that people don't realize is that a lot of the restoration work

that happens there is very much funded personally by the king. I mean, the tomb of Jesus Christ in the Holy Sepulchre was restored by personal donations from King Abdullah. And it says something. Wait, what? Absolutely, yeah. The tomb of Jesus was restored by the Muslim king of Jordan? Yeah, I mean, the Muslim king of Jordan. It's kind of a surprise ending to the story, I have to say.

He's a direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad, right? And he's the one restoring the tomb of Jesus Christ. And I think that's this interfaith story. That's true? It is true. There's another story on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. I think it shows you just how all these traditions are in the region and how welcoming it used to be to people across all faiths,

be the Jewish or Christian or Muslim, right, in the past. So since, I think a thousand years ago, since Saladin or Saladin, right? The keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, okay, did not belong to any of the Christian dominations because they couldn't agree amongst themselves, right? The Armenian, the Orthodox, the Catholic, etc. Ethiopian, like, who's going to have the key to the church, right?

And actually that key was handed to at the time Salahaddin. And even today, those keys are handed to a Muslim family. It's, I think, the Saba family of Jerusalem. They opened the church in the morning, you know, and they closed the church at night. So that's the kind of sort of, I mean, these are the stories we grew up with as Christians in the region, as Muslims in the region. Even as Arab Jews, right, from the region, this is sort of the faith and the common faith and cultural traditions. tradition we grew up with here. So a lot of the stuff that we see today is very new.

These are lines drawn in the sand by colonial powers that really sort of destroyed that social cohesion and the social fabric that existed here. My complete outsider perspective at the time when the official capital of the state of Israel moved from Tel Aviv, a city of recent creation to Jerusalem, a city that, as noted, long predates the state of Israel, was that Jerusalem changed from an international holy site to a kind of government garrison run by a city state, run by a nation state.

And that's probably not good for the Christians. Do you think that's fair? Yeah, I think Jerusalem belongs to all people, right? It surely doesn't belong to Beebe. it's not his he didn't make it none of those buildings was built by the government of israel sorry so but now it kind of feels like it belongs to bibi is that in my again this is my perspective from thousands of miles away but yeah i mean this is this is a city that belongs to all people around the world this is a holy city especially people of the abrahamic religions

as we see right i mean another story on that I mean, my grandfather, he was a merchant from Salt. He started... Where is that? It's actually sort of used to be the old capital here in Jordan. It's very close to here. Very close to Amman as well. It's an old city as well, Ottoman city, but also Roman city.

Originally, the world is Saltus, anyway, Roman city. But he used to... He started the trade between Salt and Jerusalem when he was three. years old. At the time it was, again, Ottoman Empire, so you could move around, right? Damascus and Beirut and Jerusalem, and that's what the merchants used to do. I remember, and he said, and I asked him, what was it like? And the first merchant he met in Jerusalem, the first, you know, products he acquired and sold and salt was in Jerusalem. I'm like, what was it like, you know, when you visited there?

This is in the 30s, the 1930s, or late 20s, I'm guessing. He said, look, it's amazing. I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, you know, there were the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians together in the streets playing backgammon, you know, just one community. And you can't tell the difference. You can't tell the difference. And yeah, that's what they're all Arabs. Most of them were Arabs at the time, right? So that's sort of the Jerusalem I hear about. That's the Jerusalem I remember. That's the Jerusalem that I think all of us long for is, you know, a united Jerusalem, one that's united for all faiths and, you know, the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims.

And I think, I hope I'm grateful that we will get there one day, Tucker. It's just interesting, and you know this because you spent so much time in the United States, that I don't think it would enter the minds of most Americans that a Christian could be better treated here in Jordan than in Israel. I mean, I see the stories of how Christians are suffering in Israel, especially the Palestinian Christians. I haven't had the unfortunate experience of going through that suffering. But, yeah, I don't think it's just the Christians.

I think, you know, the occupation is an equal opportunity. opportunity. Oh, for sure. I don't think it's primarily the Christians. But what makes it galling from an American perspective, I am American, I see everything through the lens of the United States and its own interest, is that America is paying for this. And America is a majority Christian country. So, I mean, we can all have different views about what our foreign policy ought to be, but I don't think many Americans are in favor of foreign policy that oppresses their fellow Christians. I hope not I hope not

but you see the point yeah absolutely absolutely I think I mean my advice would be to the Christians that really care in the US is talk to us talk to the ancient Christians you know we've been here

since Christ we're here don't just listen to the DC experts you know so you don't they don't reach out to No, in fact, this, I think what I'm sharing with you today is something that's novel, right? This is not a narrative, I don't think, I mean, that you hear, right? In the, in the U.S. a lot.

Ever. I feel shame listening to you, and I rarely feel shame, but I do feel shame listening to you that I didn't know more about this because I am a Christian, and I think we have an obligation to know what our tax dollars do to our fellow Christians. and I just haven't spent enough time thinking about it. And I think it's very odd that Christians in Jordan and in Israel aren't receiving help from Christians in the West. Do you think that?

I do. I do. I think it's odd. And going back to sort of why the Jordanian sort of experience is unique, remember those three things. Stability is one of them. If they're Christians in the U.S. and in the West, right, they really cared about sort of the minority Christian communities here in the Holy Lands. If they really do, and if they don't, you know, they have to really think about why they don't. Oh, I agree.

And I assume most of them do, right? And if they do, they really have to think about stability. And this is important to mention, Tucker, but possibly the most destabilizing thing happening in the region, right, is the situation in Israel, Palestine. without a just resolution, a just resolution for the situation of the Palestinians there, it's just, you know, it's going to be even more destabilizing for communities in Palestine and Jordan, you know, across the region.

Well, how about the United States? I mean, 9-11, if you believe the 9-11 report, was committed by people who were mad about American foreign policy decisions in this region right here. So, you know, you fund mass murder in Gaza and there's no blowback to you, I think there's probably going to be, wouldn't you think? Yeah, I mean, look, there's, yeah, U.S. intervention in the region, there's really positive stuff and there's negative stuff, right?

It's positive when it's economic and it's about... Jordanians are so diplomatic. I love that. Well, it really is. It's truthful. I really feel that. Like for you look at, for example, USA programs in Jordan, right? Of course.

They were so, you know, with the water infrastructure that they helped us develop here, with the education reform, you know, all that stuff. You know, job creation, that works, right? You know, our defense cooperation, that works, right? But when you look at military intervention, we pay the price, look at all the refugees, right, that come into the country.

And it has an economic cost and a social cost and a security cost, A political cost. So I'm hoping that, you know, maybe President Trump, I know he called the Department of Defense, the Department of War. I really hope President Trump, I know he cares about peace. I really hope he renamed it,

the Department of Peace and Prosperity, because if you want to have real protection of Christian communities here, you have to invest in stability, intervene peacefully, you know, economically, FDA. It's great for the U.S. It's also great for the region.

What is likely to happen in Gaza next? What happens to all the people in Gaza? I mean, it's the genocide, right? Yeah. And it's, I wish I knew, Tucker. Well, there are all these redevelopment plans, and obviously I'm always hoping for order and tidiness and prosperity. I mean, I think those are all godly things or something.

Those are good. but you have, I don't know, close to two million people who are there and they're in the way. And clearly there's going to be an effort to, I don't know, I don't know what. Like what happens to those people? And clearly, I think. That's my personal perspective. I'm not a politician. You know, I'm a businessman.

So I think, you know, pragmatically and morally about things, right? They have to stay. We have to rebuild their homes and, you know, their livelihoods, their communities. That's the, I think, the only solution, Tucker. I mean, I don't see anyone that can accept morally, even politically, even just on a humanitarian basis, right? It forced expulsion, right, of people from Gaza, from their native homeland. Millions of people?

Of millions of people. That hasn't happened since the Second World War, so you hope it wouldn't happen now. But do you think that might happen? I'm not qualified, I think, to answer that question. All I can tell you is if it does happen on our watch, all of us are accountable for it. I agree. Yeah, I agree completely.

Why did you, I mean, I don't want to say the fancy schools that you went to, but you went to prominent schools in the United States, and you could have stayed? Yeah. And I'm sure all your classmates are prosperous at this point. Yeah. Yeah, from business school. But why did you come back?

I've always wanted to come back. US was, for me, an amazing experience studying in the US at the time. I was there mainly in the 90s, right? Yeah. And, you know, I owe a lot to my education in the US. It was very meaningful experience. There was, it felt like a lot of, at the time, this freedom of thought and expression, and then ultimately conscience.

Yes. that you can have there. Exactly. And that's very liberating. Well, the point of freedom of speech is freedom of conscience. I get to believe what I believe, I get to speak my values out loud, right? Exactly. And I felt that in the US when I was around.

That was very, very powerful lesson. But the intention was never to stay there. This is a very collectivist against society. Family here is very important. You know, community here is very important. And to want to be part of that and to give back to that. that and to support that and to have my family and my children grow up in that sort of collectivist environment is really more important than money or anything else, Tucker, honestly.

And that's how I'm programmed. I'm fortunate I can say that because I could also afford to come back. You know, I was, my father was a businessman, my grandfather was a businessman, so I could afford to come here and, you know, to explore sort of my... career journey. So some people can't. So they optimize working in other parts of the world. So I have to be honest about that. But no regrets. I love it here. Did you have family on the other side of the river in 48 or 67? No. Really? We're very much Jordanian. Always. Yeah. My family is. Yeah. How many refugees did you get in 48? Do you know?

Oh, wow. I'm not on top of the figures, but I think there were a total of at the time. I'm not sure if they all came to Jordan, the six, seven hundred thousand total refugees at the time. Some of them went into Palestine and Syria, and a lot of them came into Jordan. So that's the total number, if I recall,

if my memory serves me correctly. I'm not sure what proportion. I think the majority came into Jordan. My last question is, where do you think this is all going? It seems like things are accelerating quickly. People are getting more radical. The maps are being redrawn.

Huge populations are being moved around. I mean, what are we looking at here? Look, I'm scared for what's coming. It feels like a big thing. I guess that's what I'm saying. I am scared for what's coming. There's a lot of lack of clarity. And it feels like decisions are being made

in, you know, backroom doors by who knows who. So there's honestly, I wish I could answer that. And that's the thing is if you want to create instability, you create insecurity because nobody knows, you know, outcomes. I feel when it comes to Jordan, you know, we have a strong leadership here. We have strong security and defense here. We have a wise people here. I mean, you've seen this is one of the most resilient countries, I think, in the world.

I mean, who can come up and deal with the types of things that we've had to dealt with over the past couple of decades? So I think, you know, we'll find a way through it. But my concern is also for the wider region, right, at what cost? And my only concern, Tucker, I mean, when you have U.S. military intervention or any kind of military intervention, if there is a vacuum, it needs to be filled. And who's going to fill that vacuum, right? And what comes later? What comes later might be even worse than, right?

Well, I think we kind of know, because we've had 1948 who got hurt. Well, the Christians got hurt. A lot of Muslims got hurt too, but the Christians being a minority got hurt. Then you have Israel inspiring, pushing for the Iraq war. Christian's population in the country just basically evaporates. And you have Israel pushing for the overthrow of Assad in Syria. Minority religious people get hurt. Christians, not just, alloys, but lots of them, but they get crushed.

Lebanon, bombed by Israel for 40 years. Right. Christian population diminishes. So, like, I see a theme here. Do you? Yeah, there's clearly a theme. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's an anti-Christian theme. I think it is. I think it is because what it means to be Christian is if you really think about it, you know, the most radical thing that Jesus taught us is love. Yes. And if something does not stem out of love, right, is it really Christian?

No. Yeah. And a lot of what's happening is the furthest thing away imaginable from love that I can imagine at this stage, Tucker. So, yeah, it doesn't feel very much. Christian to me. Good luck. Thanks, sir. Thank you.