The Tucker Carlson Show - Tucker and Mike Cernovich on Nicolas Maduro’s Capture, Charlie Kirk’s Murder, and Battling Demons

Episode Date: January 5, 2026

Mike Cernovich on Maduro’s capture, Charlie Kirk’s murder and how everything is downstream from the spiritual war. (00:00) The Capture of Nicolas Maduro (11:15) Was This a Victory for the US? (25:50) What Do the Next 3 Years Look Like? (37:17) The Institutionalized White Hate in America (49:21) Why Regime-Changing Venezuela Is a Pivot Point in American History (1:45:22) Should We Be Worried About Demon Possession? (1:47:22) Death and the Final Judgement Paid partnerships with: Vandy Crisps: Get 25% off with code TUCKER at https://vandycrisps.com/Tucker Cowboy Colostrum: Get 25% off your entire order with code TUCKER at https://cowboycolostrum.com Last Country Supply: Real prep starts with the basics. Here’s what we keep stocked: https://lastcountrysupply.com Battalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver. Gain clarity and confidence in your financial future at https://battalionmetals.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Thank you, Mike, for doing this. So what do you think of the apprehension of Nicholas Maduro? I'm dealing with a lot of, because I spend a lot of time online, which you don't. And I think there's pros and cons to each approach. And the pro is that you're really plugged in. The con is that if you read the comments, which I do, you really take a lashing every day. like I just a lot because you can't by by virtue of taking a position you just get lashed by one side of the other heard that so now apparently I'm a neocon again I'm a I'm a I'm a neocon which is bizarre because I was pro the

the raid on Maduro and people say well therefore you're a neocon and the answer well you're not a neocon which is so that's why it's interesting that you were in favor of it but if you if you're online yeah yeah of course but if you're online you're whatever the most extreme that's what they call you and no I'm not I'm not and I'm not an interventionist either but But there's a, I feel like we're always stuck between this false dialectica. If you either do nothing or boots on the ground, we need full Marine battalions to take the beachheads. Whereas I've always been a fan of the Trump approach, which is used to all that. We have these guys, do targeted strikes, remind the world that the USA is still a world power, even though we might not feel that way.

and exercise our might for a good purpose. So people say, well, this is Iraq or Afghanistan again. And I go, the people of Venezuela are not. The people have, they're not the same people as Afghanistan. It's a different people. We've had special forces there for three, four decades. We've had business interests there for decades. The people of Venezuela voted out Maduro or tried to and they couldn't get rid of them.

So we went in and we got rid of them. So obviously I opposed escalation. and whatever, but the parade of horrors, especially after Solmania, just hasn't happened yet. And that's because, like, I've talked a lot of special operations guys during the Trump admin, and the way his approach differed, and this was covered a little bit in the media, but not enough, is under Obama, they just didn't let the D-boys and them run missions. They, everything had to get approval and work up the chain, and by the time it happened, they didn't have their targets, and the Trump approach was, we have these people. They're trained. The, the level of

the missions that they can accomplish, which we saw on video, is unbelievable, right? He lets them, he lets them do the missions. They do the targeted strikes. I've, I've always been supportive of that. Yeah, I don't know if, I mean, I've got a double stack staccato nine in my bedside drawer. I've never used it. I don't feel the need to use it. But, I mean, just because, like, but no, I, Well, I'll just tell you what I'm grateful for, and I'm grateful for the wisdom of not taking out the entire government, not because I support the government, but because, you know, we have clear models in Iraq and Libya and a lot of Syria. Like, it can be very hard to put those things back together again, and the fact that they appear to be backing Delcy Rodriguez, not because they love her, but because they're in favor of stability over chaos and her brother. and they're kind of keeping the structure in place, but making sure it's pro-American, that seems like a much wiser approach. That makes me calm down a little bit, right?

Yeah, the problem that everybody, the neoliberal and even some people on the right have is they don't understand that you needed a strongman like Saddam Hussein to keep all these religious sex together. And it's obviously, it's obvious in hindsight, right? But at the time, people either didn't know, and in my opinion, they didn't know. I think that's true. People were just generally clueless. Like, I remember I spent time with my wife in Vietnam and you'd roam around all over the place. And I remember we did the tours of the caves. And all I could think of was the tunnels. Not even the tunnels yet, just the caves and the jungle. And all I could think of was, I can't even fit in through here. What in the world were we doing sent an 18-year-old corn fed boys

and black guys into the Vietnam jungles because if anybody had done any kind of advanced recon, you would just say, our guys are too big for the territory. You would literally just go through. There's just a lot to be said for looking at the real estate

and you would walk through and forget the tunnel rats and all the other ways that they were buried in. You would just say, there's no way we can send our people out here. This is just a completely different area. And then Vietnam,

people have always tried to conquer them for thousands of years and they actually take pride not being conquered. And the foreign policy elite, of course, just said, well, we're going to do Vietnam. And it was the same thing with Iraq and Libya. Oh, all people are the same. Everybody's the same. We'll just remove Saddam Hussein and everything will be fine.

And then, of course, you have a mess. But with Venezuela and Latin America, they're just pretty much like us. It's a little bit of different culture, but they've been influenced by the Europeans. They've been influenced by Catholic Church. they're running a similar operating system you can communicate to them in sort of like a shared language so even though people have doctrinal debates

and everybody likes debates religion and what's the truth to me is like the most boring thing of the world like if somebody's a Christian and I'm a Christian you're gonna maybe disagree about can you drink can you do this right what is this but you're still in the same language

right you're still able to you're still like close enough that you can You share a framework, like you can understand what someone's saying. And then we didn't share a framework in the Middle East, which is a big problem. So in Venezuela, it's a different situation. And I also like that the air defense was completely disabled, even in the Iran strike that happened a few months ago. We disabled their air system.

We sent a message, and I think we need to send a message. I'm sounding like a neocon. That's why I hate that neocons, I hate that neocons ruined it for all of us. I hate that neocons ruin the discussion where you can't just talk about how it's good to have military might. It's good to remind the world that we exist and that we can do these things, we being the United States of America. It's good to remind people that we're still running the tables. But you talk like that and you sound again like you, does it belong at the weekly standard or something. Well, I mean, you still have a chance to pivot against the neocons because the BB people, literally BB's office, is pushing.

for MCM, this Machado lady, the gay marriage lady, the Klaus Schwab, Acolyte, who is supposed to be the Nobel Prize winner, actually, who's supposed to be the president in waiting. And Trump has said flat out, no, she has no support. We're not doing that. But the neocons are pushing for her. They don't want the vice president to ascend to the presidency. So you can say that's crazy. Well, I knew when she won the Nobel Peace Prize, I actually posted, we're going to go into Venezuela. I, you can just check the receipt. But not with her. Well, no, but the point is that's how the table gets set. You can all, by now, by now you can tell the future if you just know that they always set the table a little bit beforehand. And the minute she won the Nobel Peace Prize and then praised Trump. Oh, no, thank you for this.

But, and then she's immediately kind of schmoozing with Trump. Oh, yeah, we're going into Venezuela. I don't need any inside. I don't need any, I don't need any top secret sources. That was all I needed to see. So whoever we send, I don't know. just send Rubio. I'm just, I'm, I'm, where we went wrong, and I've had this conversation with everybody from line infantry guys to people who did the higher level stuff in Afghanistan,

as they said, we just didn't want to rule the country. We, we went in and we won all the military engagements. This is another thing, too, why I'm glad the Venezuela mission happened. I was so, I got so triggered, man, the way that even people politically aligned with us would talk about the American fighting man. Oh, they can't win a war. They got beat by people who wear flip flops and say, no, they didn't. We took almost no casualties in Afghanistan, and I think the last year were there, I'm not even sure if there was a single casualty. It was an occupation that was lost. And these are just completely different things. So I think it's good to just remind people, that was all black pill dumerism because of poor leadership by people like Millie and Biden

and the woke generals. And that we have a, it's an unreal. we should take great pride in the people that we have in Delta and seals and the special operations. Of course. But I mean, they're not making the policy decisions. They're not, they're the instruments of other people's decisions. They are, but they, it's a two-way street. These guys are not pot of plants, right? Of course not. But I'm merely saying you can't hold, you know, a man with a gun in his hand responsible for the decision to be there with a gun in his hand. Like he was told to do that by someone in D.C. yeah yeah with I don't know I think that with I think that to have retention at these higher level these higher level units I think is the DC people they obviously have an opinion but I think I think those guys get more of a vote than we might give them credit for they obviously can't just say well I'm not going to go do this but they you know they have these are strong will people like I've met enough of these guys one they're extremely impressive it's just a different caliber of person And it's very humbling because I would say, oh, I couldn't do this. You know, maybe some aspect of it I could, but I couldn't. I don't have any delusions that I would have been a squadron commander in Delta Force or whatever.

These are unbelievably impressive people. Yeah, they are. So they're not just, you know, they're scribbling down notes. Why some Muppet gives them instructions. Did you make a New Year's resolution? Eating healthier, perhaps? Of course you did. We all did.

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claiming them for their own, you don't have a civil war, you don't have a migrant crisis that, you know, Rex Colombia or winds up here. If Venezuelans and the United States return to Venezuela immediately as I think they should be required to do like immediately um venezuelan nationals then you know that that is amazing that will be amazing and i'm praying for that yeah it's always good i mean it's always good to look at what victory looks like and so you think this is victory no it's good to think what victory would look like yes this was this was the first step i think it was a good step but Victory looks like we install our person who is aligned, but you can't have a puppet. Because then every – because remember, 2028's not guaranteed.

So we have to think longer term, too. And you want to get a person who's aligned and has their own point of view, but generally is going to do the right thing. The people of Venezuela – dude, they were eating – I mean, you're in Florida. You talk to anybody in Florida. they're thrilled that this happened and that Maduro is out of power. A lot of these people, they have their farms taken, their land taken. See, I don't care about that. Like, you show up in our country.

You adopt our concerns and importing your homeland's conflicts into my country and making those the basis of my foreign policy should strip your citizenship immediately. Like, what? I mean, I don't know. Like, I'm not advocating for anything in Sweden or Great Britain. I mean, do you know what I mean? They were during, during World War I, though, that's what we, the Anglos who founded the country. So I guess they were allowed to do it.

But if you go back and read the debates around World War I, a lot of it was about, well, we should go back because that's the homeland. And people are naturally going to do that, which is why, which is why I support immigration, moratorium, everything. But you, I don't know. I guess I'm more of a pragmatist and an idealist. We live in the world sort of as it is. And Florida used to be a swing state. It's deep red now. Venezuelans who come over are anti-communists. We need anti-communists.

Miami, anti-com. Like, I gave an example. So if I, if I, if you hold events, I mean, you're way too famous at this point, God help you is, I mean that like sincerely, like, God help you. If you go to Miami and Antifa or somebody showed up, the Cubans would just say, what do you get out of here? Like, we're going to. Well, they did that during BLM. We're going to, like, beat your asses. Miami had no meaningful BLM riots. Tampa did. Why? Because Tampa's the only majority white city in Florida. That's why. Right. So it's us like pussy whites. It's us like pussy whites indulging that and the Cubans and Vinians Williams who come in and live under communism. So if I look at the whole picture,

sometimes it's good to get a little injection of people who lit, you know, who lived under that because they're going to they're going to see it not as an abstract philosophical gentlemanly debate about, oh, should we allow wealth confiscation and for your homelands to be destroyed? They see it as a fight for survival. I get it. I just to take the attention away from our country, which as far as I'm concerned is not thriving, doesn't seem to be from driving around, or there's some problems that need to be addressed, big problems, imminent problems. And I don't know, to spend all your time worrying about Cuba, like, I don't, I love the Cubans here, love them, but how much money do you want to spend out of like your kids' college fund on regime changing Cuba?

I'm more of an imperialist, I guess, than you. Like, where we live in Rome, the empires do what empires do. Like, I just... But look what happened to Rome in London. Well, Venice and every other... The seat of every other empire. Rome lasted a long time. It did.

Till the fall of Constantinople, which was... Well, that... No. Eastern, the Holy Roman Empire. Okay. You're adding a few centuries on there. Notice, I remember... It's a funny story, actually.

I remember that was, because I, you know, I'm argumentative sometimes. Good. I remember in my 20s, I would always hear people say, oh, this is like the fall of the Roman Empire. I was like, I wonder what that means. Well, this is all pre-internet, too, so you couldn't just read Twitter all day and have people summarize it. And so I bought Gibbons the decline of fall of the Roman Empire. All three volumes. The single most boring treatment ever written.

And it's very well written, though. And I just kept reading and reading and reading. reading and reading and reading. And I think I got the abridged sixth volume, whatever, and I made it through three of six. And I go, there's a lot to Rome. I don't know if we can just say there's a singular point where, oh, this is where, it's just like the decline of fall. So I'm more, I'm more Bolshevik piled on the time we're in. Like, I think we're much more closer to the time of Franco or the time of the Tsar in Russia. And, you know, like Mystery Grove, when he republished those books I read all those and I did too I had no real under like the white I remember actually

it was funny when you said uh where's the white army and then all these websites tried to say he's he was a Nazi army and I was like you historical illiterate it was the white army it was the people fighting the white army yeah yeah no no but you realize how illiterate historically thought that I meant like white like the like the david duke army or so yeah no I know I mean again no I know I remember and I was like wow these people are just illiterate historic illiterates and no because you would send the monologue like, where's our white army? And immediately it was like Twitter was like lighting up Tucker Carlson once. This is why I don't look at it. That's dispiriting. No, but that's really how illiterate people are. And people who write for a living who should know better, right? Because I

didn't know what the white army was until I was under lockdown on COVID. COVID in a way was the worst thing that happened to regime propaganda. Yes. Because everybody was locked in and we had all these smart people who are just like posting things and you'd have these long threads and I go I never general Franco all I knew about general Franco was he's a fascist right general Franco was bad um the Republicans were good and that was my understanding of it uh Cortez was bad the conquistadors were evil men they were there were great wicked people okay that was that was what I learned in school Bolshek revolution I kind of had a sense that it happened and the communist won and it wasn't good but I didn't realize the full evil right and then

when COVID, you're like, wait a minute, people just post some books. I'm like, well, I guess I'll just keep reading, you know, I'll just read like three, four books a week, right? And, like, you realize, oh, no, we're not living under the fall of Rome. We're living under the time of the Spanish Civil War or the bullshit revolution. That's what we're living under. Well, I agree with that. And it's a bad, it's a spiritual war, as both of those were the French revolution, same, revolutions of 1848, same. It's all the same. So we need, we need the Cubans and Venezuelans and the people who live in I agree. I just want to focus on the United States to keep

it from becoming Bolshevik Russia. Yeah, but it's like pie together. So let me, okay, so it does since you read Gibbon and bless you for getting through that, it took me almost a year to read that whole thing because it's so tough, but it's a different writing style. It is a different writing style, but it's worth it. So when you read older books, which is especially good

as we get up there in the years, they have, you know, because I write short, punchy, boom, boom, boom. But then I have to remind myself, you've got to go back and read to where you read a full paragraph and you're like, wait a minute, I need to actually pay attention to what I'm reading. The flow is a little bit different and it's a much denser kind of writing. And a book length idea can be fully formed. Right. But, okay, but since you're interested in Rome, there was this, I mean, the pivot really was not the fall of Rome. That was the end.

And you're giving Istanbul credit for being Rome. Okay. But in the fifth century, Rome, the place was invaded by the German tribes and collapsed. So the big pivot, though, was the move from Republic to Empire. And it kind of feels like that's where we are. But we're afraid to be an empire. Right. But maybe what we saw two days ago is the beginning of a period where like, okay, we're an empire. We're embracing it. That was, I mean, that's my hope is American imperialism, because I believe we're, are just the moral people, I believe we're a Christian people. I believe that the Venice way, I believe in, like, I believe that the greatest spiritual battle is the, and I don't mean to sound like utopian or sound like a Bolshevik myself because some of this, that's why again, the left and the neocons, like they took all this, they ruined, they ruined everything because you end up sounding like a leftist utopian or you sound like a neocon when you say these things. But I just, I just, I believe in my heart that America's the most righteous country that has ever lived, that Western

Europe, if it doesn't fall, needs to remain upright, and that human suffering will be reduced by what was done in Venezuela. So I think that's one way that I look at foreign policy is in the Middle East, we created human suffering on a scale that's catastrophic. And Vietnam, especially, too, like, that's one thing that always annoys me that I think they can't. Cambodian genocide should be taught in our schools because, one, it was because of communism and Pol Pot. And two, it was our fault because we were using Cambodian airspace. And that's what led to Pol Potts rise. And propping up Prince Sienuk and the whole thing. No, it was, you're absolutely right. So if we have a national guilt, we should actually have a national guilt over the Cambodian

genocide. And we never rebuilt it. We just sort of left them to live in squalor. Well, you know who did fix it actually was Vietnam. Yeah, I'm invaded in 1978. It kicked him out, right? Yeah. We've got a new partner. It's a company called Cowboy Colostrum. It's a brand that is serious about actual health.

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So go to cowboy colostrum.com, use the code Tucker at checkout. 25% off when you use that code, Tucker at cowboyclostrum.com. Remember, you mentioned, you heard it here first. But, okay, so I guess I haven't quite figured out what I think. I have a lot of thoughts. Obviously, I'm totally opposed and have been since Iraq since 2003 to anything like that. this. On the other hand, I'm thinking to myself, maybe, well, maybe I'm not in charge of history. Okay, that's like one thing that. And maybe it's just time to accept the reality of it. So I would like to live in a small agrarian Christian republic where everyone knows everyone else. Like, that's kind of my idea of utopia. That's not anywhere near what we have. We live on a conin-sized

country with 350 million other people and we'll probably have 500 million by the time we're old, okay? So, and we run the, at least half of the world. So maybe what we're seeing is people just embracing what was already true and not like fighting against, like I hate the idea of having an empire, but we do. Right. So maybe that is what's happening. I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out. No, I mean, you're born in the world. Right. That, that's the, you know, got an empire just roll with it be an empire like you're born into a body you're born into like a human body and these like weird things and you have to figure out how to balance being an animal in a spirit and we didn't we didn't choose it we're born into america in a particular place in time

and here's the problems that we have here are the resources that we have what you know what can we do to you know reduce as much as possible human suffering and you know governed justly as an empire and we had one. We, I mean, in a way, we don't have one. That's the problem that's like the worst of all worlds where they invade the world, invite the world. I forget who coined that, but that's a good. It was a favorite of Pep Buchanan's for sure.

Yeah, yeah. It might have been Steve Saylor, one of those guys. But we had the worst of it, which is, oh, we're going to go and into shore your countries, and then we're going to bring you back up here to do daycare welfare fraud. Exactly. Right. Whereas the righteous thing to do would have said, we're going to invade your countries, but we're actually going to show.

share in your resources. And that was one of the real, I think, evils of removing Gaddafi was they had education, which again, sounds very leftist, but a lot of this is just objectively true. And they had free oil, more or less, free petrol. And now they have, you know, open-air slave markets. So we did the worst. We didn't build empires. We destroyed other people's places. And then rather than colonizing them, we brought everybody up here and now. Now we have $40 trillion in debt, scam after scam. We have, like it or not, we have bloodfews being imported where like now you have to have an opinion about Somaliland. My God, you know, and in my life, as I get older, I'm trying to have fewer opinions.

And now I have to know the difference between Somalia and Somaliland. And then you look at the Minnesota flag, which is obviously tied to Somalia. that, again, is the worst of all world. So if we're going to, if we're going to do it, then we should do it as an empire. So what does the future look like? What are the next three years look like? So you saw the president saying, you know,

this worked, we're going to do it in a bunch of other countries. Well, the future generally versus empire building are two different things because I think the future were on a pathway with the transhumanism, there's a fork in the road about humanity and what what it even means to be a human. So that is a whole other different discussion. But if you mean geopolitics, for example, I think that we're going to continue to see these kinds of targeted strikes. Now, the danger is that... Whose aim is what?

To remove the leadership of the country and replace it with a pro-American leadership? Yeah. Yeah, to put to, you know, plop one guy out, put somebody else in. And if you do it in places like Latin America, I actually think you can do it. I mean, Trump's already talking about Colombia. The Mexican cartel, that's the strange thing about all this is that everybody says, well, why don't we do Mexico? When Mexico is a full narco state, they have controls of border towns in the U.S. It's a completely different.

They have control of Arizona, don't they? If you talk to the turning point guys, then they have some pretty strong opinions about Katie Hobbs and how she got in. so what would a war with the cartel is a different it's a whole different pandora's box you're opening there but if you can remove Maduro you can remove a few people you're sitting a message to people which is so here so here's where here's why I disagree with the the neocon model and I think there's like a right a right wing worldview that's coherent and it goes like this the neocon according to the neocon model

everyone is just a madman they're just madmen everywhere and Pakistan they hate us for no reason they're just madmen and they're not rational actors Putin's a madman Putler

that's the whole worldview of just the neocons and the neoliberal establishment Putin's a madman and I'm like well I don't know he's 70 I read a lot about Russian history with the oligarchs

had taken over the country after Yeltsin left you needed a strong man to come in he brought the oligarchs to heal the oligarchs were like looting the country country. And you look at him and you're like, this is, you can call him evil. That's a moral question. But somebody being evil is different from whether somebody's a rational or an irrational

actor. Putin is acting in a way that, in my opinion, is quite predictable. It's the most rational actor in the world. Yeah, of course. Then you look at the mullahs and you just say, they want to have their fiefdoms. They don't want high IQ people in Iran even. They're trying to get rid of as many high-a-queed people as they possibly can. This was funny. Actually, I was at a dinner. There's a Persian diaspora in Orange County and, you know, L.A. Huge.

Yeah. And, you know, not just Jewish and, you know, the secular and the Muslim. And I was talking to this. They're just like a good-looking couple, very well-educated, smart. And I go, how did the, how did you guys get out of Iran? You know, it was like one of those things where I thought I knew something, but I revealed my own ignorance. I said, how did you guys get out of Iran?

He goes, oh, he goes, you get. And people on Twitter call me a liar for this, too, which is like so annoying. But he goes, no, no, you basically, they give you IQ tests. And if you're a high IQ and you're too high IQ, they let you get educated and they want you out of the country because high IQ people have too much of a revolutionary risk. So that there shows you that. Well, that's why we legalize marijuana. Same idea.

Right. So that's the, so I see the Mool-Laws under a different model than the neocons do. when I view them as they want to have their little fiefdoms and they want to govern over the ashes. So, yeah, obviously we don't want them to become a nuclear power or whatnot. But that doesn't mean you have to go in and go to war with them because, oh, no, any day now they might just do something like crazy, right? And I think that's like the right wing position is you see people, you remove the moralize, which most people can't do. Most people, they want to say the mullahs evil, sure. nobody hits the mullahs more than the Persian diaspora and

of course nobody hits them more so this whole idea that they're not it's like sure they're evil but then the minute you talk about an evil person engaging in rational activity then they're like oh wow so you support evil you know god how I've lived this oh my god right then you're dealing with someone who shouldn't be involved in the conversation because they're not capable of like thinking clearly here's my concern I agree with I think your analysis is absolutely right I mean talk to the gulf states you think they like the mullahs No, they despise them, but they don't want to see them regime change necessarily because what comes next. The only country that wants that is Israel, and not even Israel, it's Beebe.

It's specifically Netanyahu and some of his supporters want that. And they're putting enormous pressure on the administration to do it. And my biggest concern about what just happened in Venezuela is that will be seen as a template for Iran. like let's just take out you know the religious leadership of iran or the political leadership or the military leadership and like everything will go as well as it did in venezuela and you know maybe that's true but if it's not true the stakes are high no well that's why people have to have a a definition of what victory looks like because victory for the united states looks different than victory from other people so and this is where i think

people people like lose the plot a little bit so it's in it might be in the interest of some countries for there to be chaos because if there's chaos and those people you can kind of go in you don't have to worry about it it's the interest in the united states for there not to be chaos and i think that's what we say we say of course but nobody says it you know well i do constantly chaos is not in our interest yeah so so it's in our interest that if we do do regime change that we don't have we don't have chaos we do want to have a moral leadership and moral clarity and we do want to keep things on the right path and then other people have different interests and it's just up to us to keep pushing for the orderly the orderly governance of the

world via American imperialism well wasn't that long ago that many Americans thought they were inherently safe from the kinds of disasters you hear about all the time in third world countries a total power loss, for example, or people freezing to death in their own homes. That could never happen here. Obviously, it's America. People are recalculating, unfortunately, because they have no choice.

The last few years have taught us that. Remember, when the power grid in Texas failed in the dead of winter? Yeah, it happened, and it could happen again. So the government is not actually as reliable as you hope they would be, and the truth is the future is unforeseeable, and things do seem to be getting a little squirly. So if the grid does go down, you need power you can trust.

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Lastcountry supply.com. But undergirding all of that is the belief that the point of the U.S. government is to serve the interests of American citizens, correct? Well, of course. Well, not of course. Because, I mean, the foreign policy leadership that I've grown up with and that I know personally, that's not even on the top five. Well, these are people that they want to play toy soldier. That's the whole, that's the neoliberal order, the neoconservative order. I think we focus too much maybe on neocons and the neoliberals who have probably done as much or more.

If you look at the Biden foreign policy, poking Russia and moving NATO, that was all neoliberalism. And they're just too rich, I guess, and bored and want to play checkers and chess with other people's lives. But the Trump view is that we're starting from the American position, gas prices are down, oil from Venezuela like we need it. We have a deficit that we're never going to pay back. Like, if you take a step back and you just embrace it all, so people always ask me how I feel and I go, well, I go from optimism to despair in a split second. because if you look at the national debt, we're not going to pay that. There's no way to pay it back. It's impossible.

There's no way to pay it back. So then what happens? Do we hyperinflate our currency? Do we fault on our debt? Trump is going to try a resource extraction. So we get Venezuela oil. We drive down costs here. We get cheap energy here.

Well, apparently AI lead to maybe some kind of deflation. Who knows? People have their own opinions on that. That's still being hotly contested. and in that way imperialism can be a win-win because the Venezuelans can be better off we extract our share of it

maybe that's utopia and maybe that's pie in the sky but that what's the other answer? The other answer is more the other answer is like dude Charlie Kirk was assassinated

some guy was just at J.D. Vance's house in Columbia or Cincinnati banging on the window maybe shooting at it, all the details aren't there. The alternative is, it's like a Bolshevik revolution. The alternative is anarcho tyranny, which is what we already have under the Democrat rule. And that's really bad. The alternative is if we don't fix it, you're going to have more class resentment.

We do have a neo-Bolshevik movement in the United States, unabashed Marxist. When the Maduro thing happened, it was interesting. you saw, the Brandon Johnson, Chicago's mayor, Mayor Karen Bass who was in Africa while the policies was burning. She was taking some kind of vacation. Mandami, and they're all sort of with Maduro.

So you have this global Marxist movement, which is, you know, the red-green alliance, which gets tossed around. But some of the stuff these guys say in the think tanks, I've actually, if you read into it enough, I think a lot of that really is accurate. So you have this red-green alliance of

third world thinking with neo-bullshund. or Marxism, however people want to characterize it. And they do not have a good plan for the U.S. They want to, they want to loot it, they want to destroy it. They have a deep hatred for whatever reason of white people, white people of European descent are just absolutely hated, hated by all of these forces. And not just by them, by the neocons. We don't hate Europeans too for some recent. I'm not exactly sure why. But Christians, I feel like kind of everyone, that is my frustration with all this talk of anti-Semitism, which I oppose, escape speech saying why I oppose it. In Christian grounds, I am sincerely opposed to anti-Semitism and racism and hating anybody on the

basis of his blood. I'm just opposed to it against my religion. But like, the main form of institutionalized hate is not anti-Semitism. It's anti-white hate in the United States. And like, why does nobody say that. I mean, I remember with police and fire hiring, that was in the 80s where if you're a white male, Adam Crowler talked about that before, but he tried to be a firefighter. Of course. And they just said, well, you're a white man. Well, how about J.P. Morgan? Same thing. It's in every part of American society. So yeah, the white man has been, the white man, that's a funny way putting it, but white men have been hated for decades and then they've been the world's punching bag until, of course, you need a Delta Force mission. They post a picture and it's all

jacked white guys with the few Latinos and always has with tattoos and and you think well these the whole generation was was hollowed out and you you just do not see and for me that's a litmus test for 2028 is anyone who runs for president but won't specifically condemn anti-white hate by name is not even in the well jd vans just did that not even you're not even in the mix because if you could Did you see Ron DeSantis saying, calling out anti-white hate by name? DeSantis is an interesting. I think he would have three or four years ago. Yes, I totally agree.

His evolution, his evolution has been, he lost it. He needs to listen to people like Christina Pusha more. I agree. The problem I noticed a lot of people. You get sucked into donor world. They get in the West Palm Beach. They get around the Richies, and I've seen that happen to a lot of people. You just, you cannot spend, whether it's the tech guys or the finance guys, the West Palm Beach people, the Silicon Valley people.

You can't spend too much time around the Richies, man. They're not living in reality. They have all these weird pet projects that don't have any kind of connection to downstream reality. Yes. They're glibbing out of touch, and they're going to steer you aside. You have to just stay with, you have to just stay with the people, man. You got to stay with the people. So Ken Griffin is not a reliable bellwether of American public opinion?

He bought this, like, he bought this, I think, Tyrannosaurus Rex fossil or something for $75 million. Yeah, people who, people who are like, I have so much money that I just want a dinosaur fossil or dinosaur skeleton in my atroids. might might not be the people you want to take political advice from. No, probably the last people. So do you think Descentes is obviously going to run in the primary, you think? DeSantis, Cruz. It's going to be an open field because there always is because that's how they get media time and sell books and everything. But the...

What do you think it'll look like? The table, the table. Well, one is it depends if we get... It depends what happens in the midterms. and how many impeachments Trump's gets hit with if they can't keep the midterms, although Elon's back in the game. So maybe Republicans keep the midterms, but I think they, if with Elon you can, with Elon's money, you can. And it's just, that's the sad thing to say, but that's just, again, that's maybe like, that's where it goes back to like, I'm a, I'm a pragmatist, not an idealist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, that's nice. Um, no, we need to get, we need to basically, like, it's funny because I, all my, I'm, I'm a, it's funny, because I, all my, friends are pro israel basically and my advice to them has been like a singular one you need guys you need to just calm down because the anti-seminists are so moronic right now just let them talk because everything they say is off-putting to anyone with a high IQ but if you come with rancor then that's just you're you're muddy in the field and i go to us just be like stephen miller Stephen Miller likes Israel a lot, wants Israel to prosper and everything.

But when people think of Stephen Miller, all they think about is this guy's amazing. You know, like Stephen Miller wakes up trying to do things for America. And then if you do that, we don't really care what Israel does, or at least I don't. Most of us wouldn't or if there would be certainly less rancourt around it. And if they would just fund things, then everybody better off. So Elon, he just writes huge checks. And if that side wrote bigger checks for Republicans to just be Republicans, that's what I've been telling them.

I was like, look, you're going to get 80, 90% of what you want. If you just keep Republicans in the House, you're going to get that. The alternative for you guys is AOC and Mondami and all these other people versus people like me who are just realistic and pragmatic about it. And people like J.D., who's the same thing? He's a pragmatist. You've got to accept that you just got to accept that not everybody is going to be an ideologue about it, but you can still win without people being ideologues. You can win, which is good old, good old-fashioned alliances where you help out, you pitch in, where you don't see the Trump coalition is so broken, so fractured.

Because I do think the neocons are intentionally breaking it because they want to keep JD from becoming. I don't think it's working, though. I mean, I'm old head. You don't think it's working. I'm old head from 2015. This is all a repeat of 2015. It's a repeat of the DeSantis. when he ran in the primary, same talking points,

at the same people playing the same kind of games. So I don't, I just see it as this is the third season of 2015, 2015, 2022, 2023, and now it's back again. So I don't see it. And the way the politics lines up on this stuff, especially in like 2028 is, you got to look at it as, the there's just not there's the problem you know I always want to be careful what I say it is that not because I'm like afraid of me canceled because I've been I mean I've been through

the ringer a thousand times but the they have the people who really see Israel as a key issue just need to understand that hey man you're going to get like most of what you want but if you take it so that we can't win in 2028 with a Republican because you create so much acrimony and division and suppress the vote, then you're going to get a bad Democrat. You're going to get a bad Democrat and you're going to get maybe a bad Democrat Congress. So people need to not not behave in this kind of way because it's not helpful. I just think of things like politics. I'm being helpful to the country and I'm being helpful for 2026 and 2020. And I think that's how everybody needs to view the map. Like, are you being helpful? Like, are you going to get what you want if you continue to behave this way?

You don't need to be an economist to see what's happening. The dollar is in trouble. It's getting weaker. It's sad. But we're not in charge of it. So we have to respond appropriately in ways to protect our families. When paper money dies, it's going to be replaced by programmable digital currency or gold. Gold survives.

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and holding something that endures and cannot be manipulated or taken from you. So if you've been waiting for the right time to act, this is it. Visit battalion metals.com. Well, it depends what you want. So if you run around calling people Nazis, the chance that you're going to convince them to become Nazis is pretty high. I mean, that's just very obvious if you're doing that. And so maybe they want more Nazis.

there's a there's a segment of people but i it's it's much smaller the that's the lab segment it's well if you want if you want to if the incentive structure is different so if you're in media and you want to maximize a certain kind of sales funnel where they get as many people as they can as many eyes on them that they want to be acrimonious and They want to throw bombs because that that's the business, right? But if you're more political, you want to think about like, how is this going to help us achieve an agenda, right? How is this going to help the country? How is this going to help them get what they want?

That's what I'm trying to see. I'm just trying. We have this alliance that won in 2024, the popular vote, which I knew Trump was going to win. We have mutual friend, actually. I'll tell you, I'll tell you when we stop, when we stop filming. But he was so blackpilled about the election. Right. And I said, no, he's going to win.

We'll know that night. He's going to, Trump's going to win. We're going to know that night. He goes, crazy. I go, I promise you, promise you. And election out is like, well, who told everybody? The only thing I didn't see is I didn't think we were going to win the we. You know, I didn't think Trump was going to win the popular vote.

So we have this alliance. we have maha you have the OG like maga people the wild energy they brought in there was always this boisterous male energy but then they brought a bunch more of that in then you had the the post October I don't think Trump wins if October 7th doesn't happen to be honest and I said this at the time because when I when October 7th happened they realized oh this is this is what the left really is right And I do think a lot of them weren't, a lot of the pros of real of people were not paying attention to what the left kind of had become. And because I remember I would talk about the Red Arena Alliance and people's eyes was sort of like clays over like, let's, you know, that's sound stupid. And so you have they have the post-07 people, you have the, they don't want their kids trance, you have MAHA, you have the nationalists, you have the populace, you get the tech guys, you get the wealth tax guys. So it's a coalition and everybody. The rappers. The rappers. You have the Venezuelan, the Cubans. And it's a political coalition that has to be kept together. And I think every coalition partner needs to look out for others. And some coalition partners can push for themselves more and lose side of the things. So my opinion, you know, foreign policy and everything else has gotten too much attention. Maha hasn't gotten enough attention. RFK Jr. is sort of done what he has. The domestic

issues, there's only so much Trump can do because judges are blocking him. But that's another concern of mine is that domestic issues are getting blocked. And then that's going to create fractures in the coalition. But I do think the... Can I ask, though, if you... I'm, the reason I have such like a tepid, not interesting response to what happened two days ago is because I think it's like a pivot point in history and I don't fully understand what it means. So I don't want to get over my skis until I have a better sense of what I think it means. But, um, it is a totally new way of conducting diplomacy slash foreign policy slash military action. Like this is a new thing because Trump didn't dress it up with a lot of lying about democracy or human rights.

He's like, no, we want the oil. And like this guy's bad and we're taking him out and we're going to run it. No one alive has seen anything like that before in the United States. So you wonder, and that's why I'm saying I think we're for good or bad, fully in the empire stage of civilizational. development. The republic stage is over. No one cares about Congress. So, no, just like, don't we care about the Roman Senate. I wonder, like, how long until that same governing style applies to domestic policy, where... We lived it, we lived it, man. Like, we lived under Biden. Well, you're right. Before, you flesh that out. Like, people forget, we lived in, like, people like me lived in hell.

Ricky Vaughn was a, I remember when Douglas Mackey was arrested. What a good man. Rated in Florida, Chase found with guns. I followed all. these court cases, the Blacks for Trump guy was chased down by unidentified FBI agents. They just started chasing him down with a gun because they obviously wanted to initiate a shootout and gaslight him into a shootout. A thousand plus J-Sixers, people who committed at most misdemeanor trespass or roundup, we lived under anarcho tyranny. Lake and Riley's murdered. We have murders happening. L.A. is again, anarcho tier. For those who don't know, because you don't live on Twitter, thank God, God bless you, is, you know, I think, I forget who coined the phrase,

the name escapes him, but you would know. And the idea is that if you're a law-buying citizen, you live under a state of tyranny where you're going to get a jaywalking ticket. That's right. But there can be a homeless encampment right next to the don't walk sign, but you're the one who's going to get the ticket while the encampments there. And that's that we lived under an imperial dictatorship where everybody was just like, oh, yeah, like, when, like, have you talked to you? Have you had like your talk to the kids yet? And everybody, Charlie, Pesobic, everybody had that conversation with the kids, which is like, hey, just so, you know, like, daddy might be taken away for a couple of years and, you know, he's going to go away. And if anybody, like, shows up, don't do anything, you know, because they might try to shoot you. They might want to put a flashbang grenade in the house. They might want to kill your kids in front of you. When they raided Michael Cohen's house, even though, you know, Cohen ended up turning up, what they did to him was just disgraceful. They were going through his daughter's iPads in front of him. This is wicked, faulty stuff.

It just didn't get really any media coverage because it wasn't even know they did that to come. No, no. That's one reason I think Cohen sort of broke him. They just took all the iPads out of the little kids' room and they were just like taunting him. They threatened to send Don Jr. to prison for the rest of his life for he didn't do anything. John Eastman, a respected member of the bar, constitutional law professor, disbar in California. Jeffrey Clark, great career in law, big law, Kirkland and Ellis. They're trying to take his law license in D.C.

one thing after another and it got almost no coverage or no attention because the media would cover it downplay it or they would they would lie about it and that was that was like the world dude like I've had that conversation with my kids they're too young to understand like I remember like because I don't have any money like I have no money and people like well you know won't you have any money is like my family has all my money because I know that I could just be stripped of everything any day. Even now that if you're a targeted regime, you could just like

wake up, you're like, okay, well, I guess I'm fucked. But on the other hand, you're just like, my God, how have I been boiled in the pot for this long? That I've just accepted that as the norm. And I think that's something

that is a problem with all of us. We just took it for real. Like, oh, Charlie Kirk. I remember Charlie Kirk. I remember. Charlie Kirk got shot. I remember. Posobic calls He's like, dude, they killed Charlie Everybody thought they would just kill somebody else first

But everybody knew they were going to kill somebody Everybody knew it This is how we live our life Like I live my life knowing I could be killed any day I live my life under Biden knowing Well, you know I could any day anything Anything something could happen

I know every day that I wake up Just to a shit show of false It just doesn't matter That's the way that you live and as like fucked up as it is and the reason our people I think don't talk about it

is you just you have a certain ability a stiff upper lip you don't want to you don't want to sound like a victim but that's exactly right that's not it's not like

nor it's like it's a weird it's like enraging in a way like no this is not how it's supposed to be in America where you know that any given day like you might be taken away from your children

because of politics and because of how rotten and and corrupt everything is. I couldn't agree more. Obviously, I live a life exactly like the one you described. On the other hand, I think it's essential to cling to your nobility and refuse to become a victim and refuse to act like Seth Dylan or whoever, like constantly talking about, oh, the threats against me.

People are mean to me. Come on. You know, you chose to be in this. Just man up. He did, but he shouldn't have to. No, I agree. No one should threaten Seth Dylan. I'm totally opposed to threatening him or anyone else.

Just saying, like, talking about yourself. is discussed. That's our problem though. See, that's the, that's how they got us in this catch 22, which is, well, nobody can complain because we're, you know, mainly men and we're lost. We take it out of the chamber. We don't, we don't complain, but then they get away with everything and people go, wait a minute, you had to say, like, I think that most people if you told them, oh, yeah, like, I remember when I was, when Douglas Mackey got wrongfully arrested and charged for a crime he didn't commit, and it's been proven now we didn't commit the crime that I remember sitting off my kids and I go hey kids I just you know want to let

you know talk to my wife hey like you know here's your money here's where the money is you know it's all in like your name I don't have anything and tell my kids hey kids like they might take daddy away like the bad guys might come and get daddy and you know it'll be okay and everything do that if we don't talk about it then nobody knows right right so but we're like well I don't want to fucking cry I'm a real man I'm a do da da da da da da da da so like great and then nobody knows and then people get like wait a minute john eastman a distinguished law professor wrote a memo that wasn't even acted on he just lost his life lost his position at chapman his standing in the world even his law license his ability like earn a living this is like

this is what is happening so we do need to bitch more to be honest that's our problem that's the exploit and whatever our DNA is or whatever our operating software is or whatever our genetics is that's our exploit is we just sort of you just take the hits you take the hits you endure the weight of life yeah dad doesn't complain that's what you do and then they're take and then they take our country and then they fuck us up like one by one so i remember like some guy showed up to flintas's place to kill him and then end up killing somebody else down the street shows up people like well they didn't even know it was like because you're not supposed to talk about it like and fuentes his credit yeah I mean, I gave him a chance to talk about it and whatever you think of Fuentes, but he did not marinate in his victimhood at all.

Yeah, some loony goes up to Kattern's house, tries to get him, they go after Benny Johnson, they go after Seth Dillon, Candice Owens has had threats. Charlie Kirk gets killed. So I think it's, there's a way to talk about these. And that's why the Charlie Kirk thing really was a frustrating thing for me because, well, I mean, it was a tragic thing. You know, like, fresh, that sounds so, like, shallow. I just thought that people would realize they're like they're hunting us for sport

all of us Tucker they're hunting you if they could get Shapiro they would get Shapiro if they could get Walsh they could get Walsh if they could get Kandis they could get Kandis and it ain't the Israelis and it ain't the Jews that are doing it it's a violent, feral, terrorist

Bolshevik left and they would get all of us if they could so whatever acrimony we have which is like I'm not a unity guy I'm a guy who likes the mix, maybe too much, but it's like, dude, they're going to kill us. They're going to kill all of us. And we need to figure out some kind of way to coexist with one another, understanding that the threat against us is existential. And they would, the left, if they could kill Settlton, they'd be glad to kill them.

If they could kill you, they'd be glad to kill you. To them, that's just another notch on their belt or a point on the scoreboard. So what's, I mean, what's the administration doing about this? I mean, that was my problem with Trump's first term, is the political violence against Trump supporter, because again, we're just supposed to deal with it, just deal with it, was completely, almost completely ignored during his first term. Is it still being ignored? Under my definition, it is. Yeah, they're arresting some people. There's more happening than the first term, but the response is not what I would like to see. So the claim when Charlie was murdered was that this was Antifa or some Antifa adjacent person or organization. I don't know if that's true.

I don't know anything about it. I think it's absolutely true. I don't know that. And I don't have any other theories. I just don't even understand the story. But if people said it was true, so like, okay, where's the round of Antifa? So they're. Sorry, you got a dog sneezing right there.

That's good, the good puppy. So the, no, I'm, I'm a, I mean, I think it was Tyler Robinson. I think a 22-year-old man on a mission is a very dangerous thing, and that, I think that there were other people in those Discord servers and there were people tweeting, something big is going to happen tomorrow, and after tomorrow, Charlie won't be around anymore. So I'm very frustrated that there doesn't seem to be much interest in, maybe those people, were just guessing or maybe they were trolling, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in finding out who those other people are.

Why do you think? That's, well... It doesn't make any sense to me. I always go back to the Garland, Texas mass shooting, which is, to me, this is like the skeleton key of it all. So, Pamela Geller, who's very much pro-Israel, about as hardcore as you can be on the issue, did a draw Muhammad contest, and there was going to be a bunch of other people also. like very pro-Israel and a jihadi was going to shoot the place up the it was Texas and he got

taken out but by accident of faith or an accident of fate a local law enforcement officer pulled over an FBI agent who was fleeing the scene got the guy's phone and the text message to the jihadi said tear up Texas sounds unbelievable it's 100% true senator grassley has asked for information twice from ray and garland has been stonewall I don't know why Cash Patel won't release it. I've asked everybody up as high up the food chain as you can get, why we can't get it. And what's the answer? My belief is that there's that MK.Oltra never ended, co-intel pro.

M.K. Ultra was, of course, the mind control experiments they conduct on people where the book chaos covered this in great detail for people who are curious about that. About the Charles Manson murders. The Manson murders. And then there was that Air Force guy who was drugged up and killed somebody. and that didn't even make sense. And I even know about that. Well, that book was completely mind-blowing. And I do think they still have whatever arm of that is, whether that's within the FBI or some other dark site

within the intelligence community. I'm certain that that still exists. So because of that, you don't get, you're not going to get any information about that because I do think there would be some kind of dark op. Because what a lot of people, again, it's just the title, The book shows the agenda. It's just chaos. Get everybody afraid. Get everybody panicked. Usher in more surveillance technology. Usher in a surveillance state. Bring in a narco tyranny where if you're law abiding, everything you do is monitored by flock and all these traffic cameras. Everything you do is monitored. But if you're a drug addict on the street, you have free reign. You do anything you want. This was the Bolshevik method. There was a Sulz and Eastern quote, Alexander Soltz quote where it went, I don't have the exact quote, but the substance of it was your punishment for having a knife was different for the thieves. When you had a knife, it was terrorism. When the

thief had it, it was just his way of life. And that's what we're living under now with the modern and archer tyranny. So what do they have in common? Like, why does the same phenomenon reoccur? Yeah, it's the battle, the battle between people say good and evil, but you would just say like logos and chaos, logos, the divine order, the order of God, the unison of people, the fellowship of people versus the chaos and the acrimony, the evil of the dark one, Satan, demons, every religious tradition has a, even dualistic religions or polytheistic religions have chaos gods, right? So even if you're not monotheistic, which I'm monotheistic, obviously, but everybody has had those, the chaos agents.

So chaos is destroying the divine order and the divine communion of people. So you don't see this as political battles, but as manifestations of a spiritual battle. Yeah, the political, is what you see. The spirituals which talk about and then people will make fun of you and say you're crazy.

I don't think they make fun of you anymore, do they? Much less so. So you had a tweet about this yesterday, I think. here's your tweet if you were a demon with dominion over the planet and you wanted to increase the amount of human suffering across the world you would eliminate the white population yeah yeah that so you see you see what's happening the death of whites their mass massive contraction as a racial group globally you see that as a manifestation of the spiritual war ireland really is the rosetta stone i think in all this i agree because because you can, again, even if right or wrong, you could at least rationalize a Rhodesia was an evil apartheid state and they had to give it over to Mugabe and it became Zimbabwe, but you know what? They did the right thing and had a bad outcome. Or South Africa for that.

I don't agree with that, but you could, there's a chain of logic. Okay, they did the right thing. They ended apartheid. It led to a bad result. Maybe they could have transitioned it better, but there's an A to B to C thing. They're right. Ireland, they were colonized by the white Irish, were colonized by the white British. They were starved. Their resources were plundered. They had the potato. They had the potato famine. They lived like... Their churches were desecrated. Churches were desecrated. They were an enslaved people. But they have to be punished. Oh, I agree. Why do the Irish... Right? To me, that's when... If people think that tweet sounds crazy or any of this is crazy, then you have to tell me, why do the Irish have to pay restitution? And that gives up the whole game. Gives up the whole game. so this is a manifestation of the spiritual war the destruction of whites yeah and then why that is i don't know yet i'll still unravel it but you can't you can't deny it when you look at ireland and you look what is happening we look what's happening globally you look what is happening in the u.s and it has been happening for decades but again that goes back to

well you don't want to talk about how you could be killed any day and that just something you live with and I just live with it knowing that at any moment I could be gone removed one way or another. How does that change the way you live that knowledge? The you when you know when you know it's like it's like momentum or so the the arrogance or whatever the because I pretend to be arrogant on the internet sometimes but people who know me sort of find that kind of funny but there's a there's one there's like a deep weight that you carry just a deep weight where you know that what you do has consequences and you need to really focus on doing the right thing it has consequences for yourself in the country because if we do lose the amount of human

suffering is going to be immeasurable in the U.S. and globally it's like it's in it when you read about the Haldemore you read about the Cambodian. genocide you read about the the gulags it's just a scale of human suffering beyond beyond human understanding and we're the remaining bulwark against it so you're just left with a sense of like and then you're you're like i have i have a thing kind of a bit i do online although it's really true is i have like i have one fun so you don't get to have fun like i don't get to have fun that doesn't mean i don't enjoy my life it doesn't mean that i don't have a cigar and mountain bike can do other things but I just I don't get to have fun that's not the cars to me I don't get to have

fun I have to live like a serious person who knows I could be killed that my friends could be killed in the case of Charlie a friend will be killed that even people like stuff in them that I may not see eye to eye with like they could get killed that any of a that could be killed on any given day and so in a way it's like being in it's not being in a combat zone in a way but it is a way of it is a form of warfare so I just I don't get to like have fun i don't get to like goof off or live so it gives your life meaning in some ways it gives your life it yeah meaning is a complicated subject but it gives your life a you certainly have a purpose right where you know that and this is true of everybody or how people should live is what you do does have significance and consequence and you do have to you do have to make a count

that sounds i mean in some ways worse but in most ways better than living without that knowledge that it could end well that that's the meaning that's the meaning kind of paradox i think that's why some people call it the meaning crisis then before that jonathan hate wrote a book the happiness hypothesis and meaning is this concept where if you chase meaning you can't find meaning but you find meaning by living in a certain way and then you're going to oh this is so like this is meaning so i give you i have these weird it's like a hyper reality you just did a film on this i should we're working on it yeah we're in post we're yeah so okay so yeah explain this through that lens okay well the you know you get when you get older you want to do

things that are interesting and hard and i think doing a movie on the meaning of life is it's about about as hard as you get right and there so you would say like what is the meaning of life, which I've asked everybody and, you know, people have their own answers. But sometimes it's good to sort of attack it from the inverse, which is what would be a meaningless life? A meaningless life would be all this suffering of yourself and others, all the human suffering. It was just the way it is. We were just animals and we were bred by some kind of alien species to harvest gold. And if people got harmed or genocide, or whatever that was just there's no reckoning at the end that that to me gives me nightmares

to think there's no reckoning or no so then you would say well that would be meaningless okay that's i'm chasing whatever that is so then you start to think of meaning who what is that what is that communion with god is a catharsis it said that whatever it was whatever you know there's a saying like the only way out is through it's like whatever this is that you're going to get through it and there is a divine evening out of everything and that everything did have a point and everything did matter and everything happened for a reason not because you're a actor who doesn't have agency but because it was part of it's part of the rides like i got chunks taken out of me there's no like there's you've had chunks everybody has you know again we're not supposed to talk about it because

we're so you know macho macho men but like i think i'm like sometimes i'm just like dude i'm tired man Like, it is just, like, having to live like that, especially under the Biden regime, I am the censorship regime where as an adult man, you can't even say what you believe because your whole livelihood will be destroyed, you might not be able to have a bank account, right? That was like the way you kind of lived and you have chunks taken out of you and to think that that was for nothing, right? Like losing, which is how meaning ties into, I think, the political melee is, losing would be the most meaningless thing in the world. There's this painting somebody posted, and I'm going to get it reproduced in an oil painting. And it's of when the Bolsheviks took over the palace at the Bolshevik Revolution. And it just shows this, it just fills me with this like rage. You're just staring at evil.

And I look at it like, this is what losing looks like. Losing looks like you're lined up next to your kids, and they start shooting you, but the kids don't die right away, so they're baying at your kids in front of you. That's what losing looks like. People used to say, oh, Cernivich, you're crazy. That sounds crazy. I remember they say that, 2015, 2016, oh, you're so hyperbole. Now everybody, that's what losing looks like. Losing doesn't mean, oh, you're going to have a wealth tax and you're going to have to pay a little bit more taxes.

Losing is you are lined up in the basement, and they are killing your kids in front of you. That is what, like, losing us. Well, to me, that's meaningless. To me, that's the antithesis of, like, whatever the meaning of life is. So the connection between meaning and what do you mean? Well, I don't know. I mean, the basis of Christianity is this guy who Christians believe was God who came down and then, like, got brought up on false charges and tortured to death, but that.

He did that so we didn't have to. He took on the burden. A lot of people take the Christ's market. as some kind of message that we should become martyrs and I always say there's been one martyr Christ died on the cross I ain't dying on the cross I ain't a martyr Christ did that and he took on the sins of mankind and he did that for us I'm not I'm not here to be crucified and take on the sins of mankind that that's not me if anything it was it's almost it's almost like egotistical to think that I should, you know, that I should be a martyr and that that would be,

that would be a way to go. So I reject martyrdom theology fully. Interesting. Yeah. So what is the meaning? If the meaning is not getting lined up against the war with your kids. The meaning is communion, divine communion. Meaning is divine communion. Everything is divine communion. The interacting with God. Interacting with God and the downstream the communion of people. so I'll have these moments of like hyper reality where I'm like wrapped up on my own bullshit and oh you know what if I did this and you know in your own head and then I'm on the couch with my kids and there's just like a moment of like stillness and never last there's just like a moment of like stillness not when you have four it doesn't last no well and my own bullshit fucked up brain too you know like a lot you know there's a lot of us we make prisons of our own mind right of course and we the demons steal our joy you're just you're having a moment and then they're like what about this there deep state's coming for you or you know one thing after another and there's just these moments of like stillness and you know this is what it's about you know

but that's as because of our primitive brains or whatever our problems are probably because we're not in the garden of eden is we just can't maintain divine connection the monks can but it's a great aesthetic. I always get that word wrong, asceticism. I always get that bad. Yeah, I'm bad with my essence. Aceticism. And, but they have, it's a constant effort.

You know, that's why, you know, that's... But they're living on a pillar of salt or in a cave. Yeah, yeah. And it's like the arrow prayer is like, God, you know, Jesus Christ, have mercy on me. I'm set, you know, you have to constantly be connected with the divine and then lean into your heart more to distract us from the egoism, which, but you have to have some kind of egoism if you live in the world. You can't just not participate in the world. So there's this tension between divine connection, which means surrendering yourself to the full presence

of God, right? Versus, okay, but I have to like pay my bills, dude. You know, like, I have to make my way in this world. And those are constantly attention. But then something, and this is probably why there's more of a rise for, like, Eastern Orthodoxy and older religious traditions and Christianity is the, and I love Protestants. So no offense to the Protestants, but Protestantism is very, well, it's very waspish, it's like by the book. The Bible says this and like, here's the scriptures and it's very much of the mind. Christian apologetics. Oh, well, you think this, is there the Trinity and it's like arguing back and forth, but you're like existing in mind. Whereas the Eastern traditions,

And by Eastern, I don't mean Hinduism, but even though Hinduism has an approach like this. But Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Christianity is also about the knowledge of the heart and the tension that you feel every day. Like every day, I just feel a great spiritual tension where I don't, like, if you ask me, you're going to go to heaven or hell, I'm saying, I don't, God help me, I don't know. I don't know. Like, are you a good person or bad hurt person? God help me. I don't know. I don't have a good answer to that.

it makes it weird too when like people go at you because you're just like how do you know if i'm to defend myself maybe i you know maybe i am you know like what am i am and and but you can find a certain amount of meaning in that there's like a certain amount of meaning of confusion like maybe that's how it was supposed to be that we are spirits and human bodies because the if you you know if you read your old philosophy there's debate of mind-body dualism and there's there's a sense that we've all had that, am I a body, am I a mind? Well, God, we're both. We're both. We're a mind and a body, or a spirit and a body. And there's going to be tension between this. We, you know, we wrestle against the flesh. And so maybe that's the right answer. Maybe the right answer is to not be so sure

that you're right and that you're such a righteous and holy person. And maybe the right answer is, I don't know. I honestly don't know. Well, humility is always the right. answer. You're not God. But you can be proud of humility. You know, there's a great... Of course. Well, of course. Benjamin Frank is one of the best favorite writers and he said he would keep a list of the virtues. And he said I was, I would... He said, I've achieved all virtues, but I found that I myself became proud of my humility. And I realized like that was going to get me.

So yeah, the... Yeah, so there is, there is like a meaning crisis because there, that's why we have the opioid epidemic. Yes. We have people, but even people who are successful, drug overdose, so they blow up their family lives because they're thinking, is this really all there is? Oh, I did the right things. And so even if you end up in a success, you're still having those nights one day. Well, maybe especially. And maybe that describes the politics you were talking about earlier where a lot of a ruling class is just bored and let's hurt people just to shake it up a little bit. Yeah, I think a lot of them are driven by demonic spirits. And those people, I think it's less of a meaning crisis and it's more of a like an evil and evil animating force.

Okay, so how do you recognize that? There's got to be a difference between just being wrong, which I have done many times, probably even today, and being animated by an evil spirit. The angel and demon on your shoulder. Yeah, I mean, that's where the discernment that people talk about so often is something that I think about every, you know. So who do you look at from afar and perceive to be controlled by evil spirits? Most, I mean, when I go to D.C., although it felt a little bit, but it felt like it had exorcism recently, is I remember you go to D.C. and you just feel, you just, like, what is this?

Yeah. What is this demonic place? This place is the playground, playground of the demons. the whole the whole place the whole place like just to name one person would be to not do justice for the demonic forces at work in DC even recently if you look in the department of justice have you ever looked at the occult artwork and at DOJ no I'll show you some pictures next time you're at DOJ go get a tour and go look at all the occult artwork and Why is there a cult artwork at the Department of Justice?

It shows, by the way. That's because they take their religion seriously. We might not take our religion seriously, but they take it seriously. The bad guys take their religion quite seriously. And they have a religion. They have a god. Their God is an our God. Their God's the anti-and-the-enverse of our God.

But they absolutely have a religion. Their occult artwork is everywhere. It's mortifying than when you get the tour or you can probably find the pictures online so that's what we're up that's what we're up again what's on the dollar bill yeah well the some of that yeah the cult symbolism is the complicated one because like is we had jonathan peggos and it was interviewed for meaning and i was like i'm like ever since with ayahuasca i'm like obsessed with what does the serpent mean because under the kind of the mainline protestant understanding the serpent tempted eve the serpent is bad the snakes are

evil. Serpent's not good. It's more complicated than that. So, and he's an orthodox Christian. So he, he wrote an article, the serpents of orthodoxy, where he goes, because there's, there was a staff with two serpents moving around. There, you know, there's DNA. There was, even before the double helic structure of DNA was discovered, there was two serpents wrapped around. Oh, for sure. But was understood. I'm, you know, ayahuasca, the cosmic serpent. A lot of people see serpents, and that, you know, that's a whole other... You've seen serpents while doing ayahuasca? I felt it, like, moving through me, just, like, flowing through me.

Serpents? Snake. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that doesn't, I mean, I'm no shaman, but that doesn't sound good. Well, that's what sent you on these, like, quests. So we wouldn't be having this conversation if I, because for one thing, you know, for Christians, Ayahuasca is like strictly forbidden. So I don't want to seem like I'm glamorizing it in any way shape or form. But like there was, I have gone in multiple ayahuasca journeys over the years.

And for me, it's been completely transformed my heart. It's transformed how I see my children. It's the way, the way, like, interact with the world that got me interested. Christianity again because, well, so the thing is, God can meet you wherever you are, right? Which is why there is good and evil. So it isn't to say there's no such thing as good and evil. But God can meet you wherever you are and God can go anywhere and meet you wherever you are. So in my case, I was not someone who I never had any kind of faith because I never felt anything. I would go to church and I grew up very Christian and I would like try to

feel it. I was like, what do these people have? Like, there's just not, there's just isn't it. What is it that they feel? Like, is everybody in on something that I'm not in on? Is everybody faking? Like, I'm faking because I don't believe anything. And that was, because I had no, whatever, whatever six cents people have for God, I didn't have the God gene. And then I remember, you know, first time drinking tea and being catapulted to the spirit world, you know, I was like, okay, the spirit world is real. That's okay, that's not even up for debate now. To the point where it doesn't even offend me when people are atheists or don't believe in.

I was like, well, I didn't believe in it either. I had to see it with my own eyes. You know, Paul, he had to be knocked over and, you know, to see. Blinded, yeah. So for me, that was like my Paul moment where I was like, okay, well, somehow I ended up here drinking tea with no belief at all in God or the spiritual realm at all. and now I absolutely know it's real and went, you know, went through a number of things and, you know, I don't know if you want to go into all that, but... I do. Like, why'd you do ayahuasca in the first place? For the wrong reason, which was for the ride, you know, what was Hunter Thompson said, buy the take it, take the ride?

Yeah. So many people just sit around ruminating all day or daydreaming all day. Maybe I'll do this, maybe I'll do this. I've always been a, just buy the ticket, take the ride. What's it like? Buy the take it, take the ride. And so I thought, well, I mean, I'd done a lot of things in life before, and I felt like I, I felt like I was pretty sure myself that I knew how to live and was arrogant in a lot of ways. And I thought, well, you know, I've done everything else.

Like, I might as well just do ayahuasca, you know. By everything else, I don't mean drugs. I just mean, like, I was so full of myself and my own ego that I just thought I knew so much about life. And I was such a wonderful person that obviously I would just do this because that's what people who are so, you know, so great. so great do right i'm so great i'll just do this like other thing and it like broke my heart broke my heart over and over again the whole night just like broke my heart and so the way the way it works is you're you know you drink the tea and you just kind of like look around okay i think that's a mistake and then you sort of like you kind of like start to fall under and you venture to

the spirit world, but you don't, it's not like you're here and I'm walking around. La, la, la, I'm in the spirit world. You're taken to a place where you have no free will. You have no power. You are more insignificant than an insect on this world. And you start to journey and, you know, experience various things. So one, I give you an example because it's kind of hard to explain, but I remember like I'm drinking the tea and sometimes you have like a little bit of a light show when you go into the spirit world you hear like a buzzing sound like bees

and then you see like a little bit of light a little vapor on the side and like and then you get the DMT sort of light show that people associate with a psychedelic experience that's the least significant part of the night but a lot of times you start to get the light show and you think oh okay I'm into somewhere but there's a sense of like, there's me and I'm in M.N. to something. And, you know, you go through there

and then you become completely disoriented. You wake up and you look, you know, where am I at first? Where am I? So I remember I woke up. I go, where? I look around because, you know, you're laying down. You can't walk around. You're laying down. You're laying down. I look up and I go, where am I? Where am I? Where am I? I And I'm in this place. I'm on this mat. And I got dropped off. And then I walked in here and I saw this person. And then I came and I drank the tea. Okay, cool. So like you're reassuring yourself. Close my eyes. Wake up. Where am I? Oh, I'm Mike Sternovich. I'm in this room. And I came in. Oh, yeah, I got dropped off. I'm doing ayahuas. Okay, cool. Okay, cool. Close eyes. Wake up. I'm Mike Sternovich. Where am I? close my eyes wake up I'm where am I

wake up what the fuck ah dead dead there is no eye dead dead ah

and as I'm falling down into like wherever I'm falling into I see like my kid's surface and my wife's surface and I was for all purposes, dead.

I was overwhelmed with the feeling that I was dead. I was like, I'm dying, I'm dead. There was no I. There wasn't even an eye who's experiencing it, and I'm dead. And then, like, all I could think of was, like, are my kids going to be okay?

Is my wife going to be okay? Are people going to be okay? How is that so foolish? How was I so foolish? How, how, I was so, I remember, like, when I funded my kids like college fund I was like okay like my kids are set like I can die you know like what do I need to be around for like because I grew up poor like then you learn that you're own trauma and everything

I was like okay like my kids are good my wife's good like everybody's good you know everybody's good I got me taking care of whatever happens to me you know because part of this is like you know knowing that you could be killed or framed any day and I'm like okay everybody's okay and I remember I'm dying I just heard a voice that you fool you fool they're not okay they're not okay because of money because you set up money like no they're not okay where what is wrong with you and i was just left with the sense of i just i'm a fool and i live my life foolishly and i can't believe that i was such a fool and i'm dead now and it's like too late and then eyes close and i wake up and then i'm like puking in a bucket like

you know so they call like a spiritual purge and i remember being like oh god i'm still alive i'm still alive like looking around you know like looking at this bucket like i'd never been you know everybody's afraid of throwing up on iowasca i'm like oh you will that will be the best part of the night that will be that you will be thanking god that you're alive like throwing up in a bucket and I was like oh god I'm alive okay I'm alive alive and then but then that's just like that was five minutes

that was just five minutes and then you like go back under and then it's like another thing another catharsis like another like time loops so I remember I get up and I look around

and there's this woman walking around and she's carrying the buckets because you know people are throwing up and everybody's sick. And so you have kind of the shaman guy or facilitator. And then you have the helper. There's this person, you know, she's walking around and she's carrying a bucket. And I wake up and I look and I go, oh, there she is, carrying the bucket.

And then close my eyes. You come back up. Time loop. So time loop means like I'm reliving this moment with you and I remember reliving this moment with you. But I'm like stuck in it like Groundhog Day. Time loop. And that's the first time it happened to me and that's a real like mind fuck.

so I get up and like oh she's like carrying things okay she's cleaning up after people and then I thought you know how nice fall falsely wake back up I go man look at she's like so helpful and I couldn't do that like I couldn't clean up after puke on other people I just I don't know how they do this and then I wake up and I'm in the time loop again I'm like what what like why I'm in this time loop you know and like you start to feel like you're going insane like Why am I stuck in this time loop? And I close my, and I put up and he goes, said, you don't even know her name. You never introduce yourself to her.

You didn't talk to her. You don't talk to people. You just look through people. You don't get to know people. You're so arrogant. This person is doing something you could never do because you don't have the humility. You can never clean up after other people. You don't give a shit.

You don't give a shit. But you didn't even look this person in the eyes and just say, like, hey, you know, what's your name like how'd you how'd you get here you just came in here to drink your tea selfishly like the arrogant prick that you are and because you wanted to take the ride you know you want to take the ride and you're just a bad person i was like what the fuck you know and then so that was more or less my night and you see demons at one point over and over again oh yeah that was so you can see dee so you can see demons i remember being taunted so so that's what's weird about it is it's like it's like scenes of a movie with generally

there's a catharsis you don't know that's why they just say before you go when they go the only way out's through you're like I go fuck yourself the only way out's through what kind of shit is that the only way else through what the fuck does that mean you know again that was my arrogance and my own delusion and that's true in life though yeah yeah and I was just and you're like what does that mean well it means that no matter how bad it is With the ayahuasca, I remember I would do mask And then I would open up the mask And try to look around

And a demon Whatever it is An entity Says, oh, you think you can open your eyes And you show me like the most fucked up things I'd ever seen People being tortured to death Killed like the road Have you ever seen the movie The Road?

No Like a cannibal, like a horror film And then it said Oh, you think you can take your eye mask off You can't run You're running from yourself you're trying to run from yourself and you can never run for yourself

I'm like what am I running from then I'm like what am I running from what do you mean I'm running because if you talk to me at that point in my life you would be talking to a very cockshshould not be talking to this person

you would be talking to a person who's like oh yeah I got things figured out man I got things figured out and I can prove it I grew up poor I've had some things happen that haven't been so good in my life I've had to navigate life with a bipolar mom.

Like, da, da, da, da, da. Like, I know life. You talk to me now, I'm like, I mean, I have ideas, you know, things that I think are like the path forward, but that person was just shown you are in the spirit realm, you're nothing. You're nothing and you're so arrogant. You're out here, you, like, you have no power. So this is you're running from yourself.

And I was like, what am I running from? And it goes, all that success you chased and all the whatever, whatever it is I was trying to do, they go, that was just masking your heart, your, your, your, your, the, the trauma. The trauma that you have. And that everything you're doing is just to mask that. I'm like, well, that's bullshit, you know, that doesn't make any sense. So it's like, okay. Because you're, because you're, and by this, I mean, I'm, you're talking to a guide. so when I'm saying this this is not like an eternal monologue this is you're talking to something outside of yourself it's like Dante's infernal like the guide

and the guide said okay you know big mouth you want to argue like we'll just vortex you back and the spirit realm so then it's like you close your eyes that's why I'm like it's like in scene you're like oh you're like

you're in like a new scene and then like it shows you something from like when you were a child or maybe in my case it was like something from when I was like a child that was remember it was like it was showing me it was showing me the house I grew up in and I was like why is it showing me the house like my house I grew up in this like small shitty house I hated it we had holes in the carpet like I was embarrassed to bring people over I was like why why am I being shown my house what like I hate that fucking house I hate this fucking house. Why are you showing me this house? And then, like, a voice is like, you had all the love

in the world in that house. Your dad loved you. Your mom loved you. They did the best that they could do. And you think that you can just, like, give your kids money because that's your own thing. You know, like, well, you grew up poor, so, but it's like you took the love for granted. You just, like, you had all this love, but you'd have money. So then that's, you know, becomes your hang up like oh do i have enough and like well if my kids have enough what do you need what do you need me for you know like what's that for it was like all the love in the world was in the house and you hated that house and you like you'd even know it I was like whole fuck you know so like I always loved my dad and had good relationship I was like oh my god like it was like and what was it

like for your dad to be poor like not how to make a what was that like for him you know and you're just like oh fuck you know like he was poor too you guys were just poor that was like the town lost the factory and people were jobless and that's just every kid's dad went through the same thing you worked at a factory and then you had to find some other kind of shitty job and you kind of find something else and then eventually my dad figured it out by then i was like in high school so it didn't really impact my life either way and then i was like oh fuck i have all this i have all these issues around money just in a way that's like traumatic you know not just just in a way that, you know, people need money to live and you want to be greedy.

And, but I, like, I had no idea. And I never would, I never would, like, reach that conclusion emotionally. And then, and then you're, like, zooming out. And it's just like, oh, it's like, it's like, it's like, the love of your family, the love that God has for you. And then, and I was like, fuck, okay. So then I close eyes, like, you wake back up and it's like, look. It was literally like an old grandfather or something. something out of Gandalf or something and it's like look and it goes

it's like in a very calming like massian voice he says it's not supposed to be this way and it was just like he was like doing this he's like it's not supposed to be this way and I look and like I said I'm laying down and I look and I see this

Gandalf like figure floating and like I was like it's not supposed to be this way I was like what's not supposed to be this way and then he just showed all the the light it's like the lights are all separate now you're supposed to be together it's supposed to be communion it's supposed to be that everyone's loving each other and you just want to like kill kill each other he goes this this is not how it's supposed to be it was like it was like it was like a

frustrated dad who was like this is not how it's supposed to be this is not how it's supposed to be and i was like oh okay you know this is so above my pay grade you know i don't even know like and that's how i know it's not coming for me i'm like if i could come up with stuff like this people would think I was a genius you know this is not my brain and I'm so smart and then I like go back under and then I come back up and I hear this like scream and it was like the scream of an enraged mom basically screaming at like the same situation so then you know it takes years to put all this together and everything but that was like showing me the masculine the logos and the way like a father governs and then like the rage of a mom and the children like are not

getting together and you know the tension of the tension of male and female and then i like i saw a old woman's face on a mountain i was like i don't even know where this is from i never read any books before this and that's pachamama so that's a different kind of entity so in that case i So like, whatever, whatever Pachamama was, the, you know, Mother Earth or whatever in paganism that people describe it as. So I'm just going, you know, back and forth between flashbacks to my life. Wait, so you saw a demon that others identified that you'd never heard of. Yeah, yeah, Pachamama, I had no idea.

Yeah, I didn't do my research before going in. So I'd know, like I... So what you're saying is these are definitely not parts of your subconscious that rose to the surface. Yeah, unless it's a parabola, or unconscious is, you know, there's a theory that that, that our unconscious is generating our experience in real time. But it's not, it wasn't me, it wasn't a book I read. It was, because I was, again, like atheists, so every rationalistic argument they could

say, well, you probably just, like, no, I never studied Aztec culture and Incan culture. I know what Pachamama was. And so there was, they're like, they're external entities. So the older figure you could say maybe, well, that was the Guardian and you read Dante's Inferno one high school. Right. That was some thing in your unconscious to that surface. But Pachamama and other kind of entities were not so beyond my cultural understanding or my knowledge. So, yeah, so then you're going, like you're going back into that.

And, like, you go through, it really, I mean, it's not a pleasurable. There aren't a lot of ayahuasca addicts, right? Is that true? And it's not covered by Medicaid? No, no, they're, which is a good thing because I don't know a lot of, you don't want to some fly-by-night shaman or you end up with the wrong situation. It's all in Mexico, right? A lot of things can go bad. They're, they're different areas.

South Africa, I'd done it before. How many times have you done it? Nine, ten times. Actually? Yeah. they're um oh yeah they're it because it's just you go in and the i had a lot of i had a lot of i mean i like i had a lot of things that i had to beat out of me i used to like just like we're earlier we're talking about how you you know a certain monascoicism we all have which like i think

it's good and i think therapeutic culture goes too far where you don't want to sit around and like talk about how bad it was being a kid but a lot of of us, and I learned this dealing with a lot of veterans have done plant medicine. I don't know if you've seen in Waves and War yet with Amber and Marcus Capone, Amber and Marcus Capone. They're amazing. So you have all these vets who are suicidal, and then a lot of them do Ibogaine. They go down to Ibogaine Clinic. That's what vets is a charity I've sponsored, donated to, you know, for a number of years, and vet solutions. And so with me, the, you, you, you, you, you, You realize that, like, a lot of what we do that we think of as virtuous is trying to, we're trying to hide something from ourselves.

We're trying to make it so that we can't be vulnerable. And so with veterans especially, they, you know, they find out a lot of things that happened with their kids. And that's why they became the men they were because you're driven by the sense that, like, I'll never be weak and powerless again. Right. I'll never be weak and powerless again, which that's a good thing. you shouldn't be weak and powerless. But if you have all this other stuff underneath that, then maybe you don't love your kids the way you're capable of.

Or maybe you're afraid to love your kids and wife the way you are because maybe you are afraid to be hurt. And that's another aspect. I think where therapy culture has taken things too far where you're like, oh, let's like talk about our trauma, like all day and relive things. Whereas not like, but maybe for a weekend. you know maybe spend a weekend and talk about it and figure it out then and work through it you don't have to like live it so i just i had so many lessons on how how it's just a fool

basically it's just a fool well that sounds i mean i mean i love that my concern is if the demons are real aren't you afraid they'll enter you that's that's the big debate right sarah from Rose wrote a book, The Soul After Death. So if you talk to Josiah Trenum, he would just say, well, this is demonic and this Pharmakia and absolutely, like, absolutely not. That's kind of my instinct. That wouldn't even be a debate. Yeah.

There's really like no debate to be had. And my position is I always warn people away from it because it's a monumental undertaking. It's not just something that, oh, yeah, we'll go eat some shrooms and go take a hike in nature. Right. not in the same world and a lot can go wrong and it can disrupt a person's life well I've seen that

yeah too with people's lives being destroyed by heavy duty hallucin like in what way a friend who killed himself was from LSD but you know wrecked relationships

yeah LSD is poisonous that they can cause a lot of issues and the that's why it's more or less like if you're the like the guys especially that vets and Amber Marcus and them work with these are guys that are going to kill themselves and they're alcoholics most likely we're not we're not talking like oh I'm living like life is great and I'm living in a state of love I'm going to go drink ayahuasca this weekend right it's more like or in my case where you're just being pushed there because I was living in such a state of

folly and delusion that there was like no other way. So in my, in my belief, I think God pushed me there. I think, I think it was God. And he showed me, this is the only way that I can show you that you are just, not who you, you are just a delusional fool. And this is the only way that we're going to get through to you. Yeah. And the message like got through. And then, you know, I have drank and you know had mortise since then but it's not something that i that i do regularly so what about the threat though of the demon entering you you said you had serpents inside you i should just say i believe you but i mean the consequences of being i mean the first missionary trip jesus sends the disciples on all he says is cast out demons the whole new testament's jesus casting out demons

the disciples casting out demons like that's completely real in my opinion yeah and the and but the consequence of living my I was probably demon possessed before the ayahuasca because I was so I'd been deluded by dark forces into thinking that I was something that I wasn't yeah so in my view it isn't where oh I was such a holy person in my mind I would right and you were corrupt I was yeah no it's like the opposite where like whatever I was before I was before I was in my mind I would have right and you were corrupted yeah no it's like the opposite where like whatever I was before that, I'm not that way now. And whatever path I'm on is like about God and Christianity and like trying, you know, finding more love in the world than divine communion and just knowing that you're just not like a, you're just not a paycheck to your kids, you know, and I didn't

even treat them like I was just a paycheck. But it was just some, it was, I would just, it was, I would just, it was a glibness that I had. So it's just, the, the, the ayahuasca just burned out all the glibness that I had, where I can't even laugh at things sometimes. I'm just like, that's just not funny. I'm in a way I'm like too serious. It's like, why are you laughing? It's a very non-American approach to boys. This is just not funny. Trump is so fun. I don't care. Fuck fun. I hate fun. What do you mean fun? We don't get to have fun on this world. Fun? You want to have fun? What are you a little kid? Right? So it's, it's driven, And it's driven all of that out of me in a way that I couldn't have reached intellectually.

How does it make you feel about death? Well, one, I know there's a judgment. I don't think there's a judgment. I know there's a final judgment for sure. Really? So for me, it's not even... I think you're right, but what convinced you of that? Because I just was in the spirit world.

I saw my divine judgment, and my divine judgment was hell. you know that was that was like my divine judgment and so one is i just i know there's a final judgment to the point where when people say oh you're whatever crazy whatever i don't even get offended i'm just like brother i was that was me i was you i was you before this so how can i be upset with you for thinking this when that was what i thought before then so like i know there's a final judgment i know the accounting is in the human heart it's not the words it's not in what you say not in how holy you can be and how you can tell everybody else they're not holy and you're you know you're mr holier than now and everybody else is a sinner it's your this the human heart

is going to be weighed and measured by god in my opinion it's jesus christ and you know in my opinion is christianity and jesus christ but i'm but i'm not a um i'm not into the apologetics where we argue in mind all day about like what it is i think the human heart's going to be weighed That's something that God's going to determine at the judgment. I know that I'm accountable for everything. And I know having died, like, for all purposes, like, I have died. I have died. And I know that when you die, the only thing you're going to think about is the people you left behind.

So all of this materialism and, oh, no, somebody, I'm being picked on today on the Internet, or I'm being canceled again or this and that. Like, none of that came up. Actually, one funny thing that came up was during one of my journeys, I was like, I was under and I saw some things. I came up and it goes, whatever, it, whatever, that's what I mean. I don't know what it is. I still understand it.

It said, you know how blessed you are that you've been, like, attacked and everything? And they go, you can talk about anything. That's right. Doesn't matter. People are just like, oh, wow, certainly if it talks about ayahuasca, we fucking knew he was crazy anyway you know like this is probably the least crazy thing that he's like said all week

whereas if I were more of like legitimate and respectable then I would have to think well how's this going to play how's this going to play should I talk about this should I tell Tucker are people going to clip this up and make fun of me what is this going to impact my standing with the administration and all the serious people

in the world are they going to none of that comes up all that came up was, is my family going to be okay? That's the only thing that I could think about. So then you go from there. Well, are they? Have you loved them? Do they know you love them? Do you tell them that every day? Are you saying your prayers like, every night? Because tomorrow's not promised. I could be in a car right now, flip over and die in a second. People die all the time in a second. We take it for granted. Charlie Kirk is dead. Charlie Kirk is dead. That hurt me too. That hurt me bad. I haven't cried so much. And the

past three months in my whole life and I don't care to admit I've cried about it you know I think that's a problem people have is oh you know we don't it's like I don't know whatever a real man is I think I'm pretty pretty high up there and I've been crying more in the past few months than I have my whole life combined and you realize like charlie just found he just went and went to work he's dead his kids don't see him they're not with them at Christmas we're on the internet arguing about fucking Tyler Robinson and was it the Mossad or was it this Charlie's kids they don't have a Christmas with them anymore they don't have a Christmas with them Erica goes home to an empty house and then she goes on the internet and everybody's just saying the worst things in the world about

her she's not even my friend but she's a mom there's the worst things in the world about her and they had Christmas without their dad what's that like what's it like to have Christmas without your dad a lot of people go through that so do my kids know this might be our last together, but I'm going to be here. I'm going to try to make it home. But if I don't make it home, you know I love you. You know I love you. You know that you're my world and that I'm obsessed with you. And they never for a minute, they never for a minute have to wonder what like does dad love us. Is dad, you know, is dad good to us? Nobody, my life, I text my friends the most dopey shit. You know, like love you, man, just thinking about you. Just thinking about you.

I never, never did that before. Just the dopiest, like most sentimental stuff that you can I hope you're okay how like think about all your friends you how all of us have these manned friends we're also you know mainly me when's the last time somebody just like hey bro hope you're okay just thinking about you that's nothing i'm not not not poetry but i just oh i haven't talked this guy a couple months i'm sure he's doing fine maybe he's not maybe he's not why do we think everybody's doing fine who will this right why why that's our delusion that's the that's the fall that's the fallacy. Everybody, the folly, everybody's doing fine. And then you don't reach out and you go, oh, well, we shouldn't seen it coming. You know, maybe you wouldn't, maybe you wouldn't

have. So I meditate on death. I think about every day. Every day I meditate on it. And it gives me a sense of calming, if that makes any sense. That's exactly right. Avoiding death is what makes you neurotic. Facing it makes you calm, gives you peace. Because that's the root of fear, obviously, is the fear of dying. The fear of death and the fear of status and the fear of the egoistic attachments that we all tore names or reputations. How does it affect your relationship with your wife? Just like, I'm like obsessed with my wife.

Like, I'm just a scent for my wife. Which if you, you'd have to ask her, but I don't know that she would have said that was true, you know, or maybe necessarily like early on like, all I think about is my wife in kids. Like, if I make money, like, I don't even care. I just, like, get rid of it, you know. Get it to them. Like, people are like, aren't you worried about your wife? Like, leaving you or your kids? I'm like, I don't care. I mean, I really, like, I don't care. I mean, signing all your money over to your wife. Yeah, yeah. You should do that. Yeah, I mean, I did. That's the right thing. No, there's a lot of peace in that, too. Totally. It's like, you're going to get blood from a turnip.

Come after me. And you're very, very disappointed when you start tip me upside down and maybe you get a few quarters out of the pocket. So it's made me just, it's completely, like, obsessed with her and the kids. It's made me, like, I've gotten much nicer even online than I used to be, you know, because you just think so much of it is, I'm not perfect, you know, because people can, I mean, my God, I'm not even, I'm not even, I'm even saying I'm good, let alone perfect. But you just realize, like, maybe that guy's just having a bad day, you know, the guy cuts you off. That's right. I'm mad. I'm honking at him. Oh, I'm going to fight. Maybe that guy's kid's dead, dude. Maybe his kid is in the hospital. And now I'm just adding. So I'm always about like, I don't want to add to the trauma burden of the world. What, what, like, who knows what other people are? And that doesn't mean I'm going to let people walk all over me and everything. But who knows what people are going through, man. You just like, you never know. So I think, I think about that all the time. Like, I don't have, like, I don't have any doubts that my kids know where we stand. my friends know where we stand the people who aren't my friends know where we stand because i don't

have time for like fake love and fake pleasantries and everything it's either like it's real or it's not it's not real there's just no point why even why even go into that middle space and i just my love for my dad which was always very strong was like even stronger my empathy for my dad my mom you know because you think about what you always think about what they did right to you Because we're the center of our own story. Because you have to be here. You can't live. I'm not diminishing that.

But then once you start thinking about, like, what happened to them? What happened to them that got them here? And then suddenly you're like, yeah, man, whatever. My problems are my problems or what I went through was I went through. But everybody has gone through that. Everybody's going through something. And then as that expands, I think that's meaning. And I think that's how you connect more with God because that's the divine community.

empathy you know empathy is part of the divine communion that's why charity is part of the divine communion that's why these are all taught by christ even people who don't believe in them see the logic in it it's just it's communion with the divine and the better we are to each other the more in touch we are with the divine and the more that we fight and we bicker and we squabble and in the case of war we kill each other the further the further away we are from god you know scott adams quite well he's facing death sounds like

no no that's why I've been crying I've been telling you I just been crying you know I saw some video Sean has sent me a video and he's like you know a lot of people don't know this but when I was just starting off like Mike Sternovich

like really helped me out and really boosted which is true but I was like he's on his death but he's thinking about other people and I'm wrapped up on my own

bullshit aren't we all every day yeah so you know Charlie's dead scoff's dead we're all getting and older. There's strategy all around us every day. And you want to start thinking about your

own life. And not that we don't already. So with Scott Adams dying, that's like a huge loss. I was again, I'd leave my house because I was crying. I was like, not that I'm afraid to cry in front of my kids, but they'd be like, well, you're crying, dad. You know, it's just like, I just got to, I just got to take a walk. And I'm just walking. And I'm like, which is another thing, too, I liked about that. I couldn't cry before I watch you like hold it in you know you hold it in and once you get good at working with the plant medicine you learn it's just a wave man just a wave let the waves flow why are we so afraid like why are we so afraid to cry by ourselves right like why if you're in a room by yourself and things are surfacing whether you're with the plants or not with

the plants who's there to look at you other than God what are you afraid of I don't know what are we afraid of. That is scary. That's the ego in us that keeps us alive but also enslaves us. That's the part that desires the illusion of control. So when you're when you're letting things go, you have to surrender control for a minute. You do have to like lose your shit for a minute. And then that, that part of the egoism wants to fight against that and wants to feel like, you know, I don't do this. Yeah, be dignified. We don't do this. Like we don't cry. It's like. Like, well, I mean, I don't think it's healthy to cry around your wife all the time. No, it's not.

Right. I'm not a good idea. Yeah, I'm not saying walk around and like we're, don't cry in front of your wife all the time. We're weepy, you know, we're weepy all the time. That's a recipe for celibacy. Yeah, yeah, that's not an ideal thing. But like when my wife had a miscarriage, I like, I cried the hell out of that. I just in my office by myself and I cried and then I, you know what I noticed?

I start talking to people or I, you know, I wrote about it. They're like, oh, I had a miscarriage. I was like, why does nobody talk about this? I know. You can't talk about it. That felt like a kid died. I was not even pro-life at that point. I was like, yeah, politically, kind of am.

And when we had that miscarriage, I go, my kid died. My kid is dead. And from that, I was like, oh, pro-life. You know, I just was an idiot. It didn't really understand. That's such a common story, though, you hear from people. Yeah, but the people don't talk about it. Well, you're right.

Yeah, that's another thing. And then everybody's walking around. holding everything in then like why are people getting drunk why are people doing opioids why are people why do you think because they're just like

holding on to it and then they want to mask the feelings as they bubble up so they find alcohol or they find drugs or they find pornography or the devil loves that

that's the thing too where I go back and forth in the demonic thing with ayahuasca I tell a friend about this actually I told a friend and he goes what are you doing this week And I was like, oh, I'm doing some fasting, and I'm going to do ayahuasca retreats.

Like, ayahuasca, that sounds dangerous and scary and scary. And I go, oh, where are you going? And he's like, I'm going to Vegas. And I go, that sounds dangerous and scary to me. Well, you're going to be amongst the drunks and you might get hit by a drunk driver and you might drink too much and find yourself in a strange bed. That to me, that's where the devil wants you. I agree. Because if you start looking at Iowa, like with the ayahuasca thing, even having some experience with it, I'm talking myself out of.

of it until the minute that I drink the tea. Up until that very second that I drink the tea, I'm thinking of every excuse in the world to not drink it, because I don't want to drink it. I don't want to do it. But if 10 years ago you said, hey, do you want to go take some shots of vodka and other things about, oh, yeah, that sounds like a great time. Of course. So then you have to, that's where the discernment comes in, and that's where it becomes a heavier question. And well, why is it that I want to do things that we know we're a sin, that we know we're damaging? And I want to. I'm excited for that.

But I don't want to do this thing that is like demonic. With all of my being, I do not, if the, I do not want to ever drink ayahuasca for the rest of my life. I do not want to. That doesn't mean I won't, but I don't want to. But why, though? Why don't I want to? Well, it's because of the spiritual way. or the spiritual reckoning that happens and the realizations, which fundamentally I think

have made me more, again, I don't want to say a good person, but it certainly made me change my life and live differently. Have there been any downsides? You got to be comfortable with spiritual confusion, which he won. So I have a certain, there's a certain, like, wait now that I have you ever hear that expression like the unbearable lightness of being of course and it's like very california woo thing and everybody's all about lighten up man you know chill out you should like learn to relax and i do and a friend of mine who who found the medicine after i did remember we were hanging out he came out to one cigarette he goes mike he was like yeah what's up brother what's up he goes i don't how to say this he goes but since

drinking ayahuasca. And he's a Christian. He plays in his band, you know, and he plays guitar in a band at church every Sunday. He goes, I don't know how to say. I go, oh, you're like really spiritually confused, right? He goes, yes. And I go, what do you think I like know the answer? He's like, he goes, all I'm thinking about is like, am I doing the right thing? And there's a, there's a confusion, but like in a good way where I think that a lot of people think, well, I'm, I'm Christian, I'm saved, I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, once saved, always saved. And then I'll just sort of live my life and maybe go to church and try to be a good person or whatever. But you feel like I'm a Christian, you know, I'm a Christian. Like I've checked the box.

Whereas when you, with the medicine, I think it's the opposite. Where you're just on any moment you're just waging against whatever, sin, the darkness. And you're just like, I don't know, man. I believe, but I don't I don't really know what's going to happen. I hope I'm doing the right things. And that level of spiritual confusion, I think, is not meant for everyone. So I don't think most people are, I think almost nobody should drink ayahuasca. I think almost no one should. I think it's only something that if a person feels like they're going to do it anyway

and no amount of persuasion for me is going to work, then that's something to talk about it. But I don't think people should dabble in this kind of stuff. Really? But if you're a vet and you're like looking at the bottom of a bottle of Jack Daniels, you got a gun next to you, let's get you to Mexico. You know, let's get you to Peru. Like that's a whole different conversation. Have you ever known anyone who's been made worse by it?

Worse is a hard way of putting it because people go through Facebook. is this. So I've, what happens with some people, unfortunately, is because you are getting quote unquote like downloads from the universe, people do kind of chase that download of the universe dragon versus like the hard work of living in life. Right. So drinking ayahuasca, once you kind of have a hang of it, it's never easy. But it's like you put on your space suit and you kind of know, you kind of know like you drink it and you can feel it moving through you and your hands start to feel like you have carpal tunnel and right when you feel like you can sort of stretch out and you're like oh yeah the medicine's about to hit and you can't direct the experience in an active way but

you sort of know what you're you're getting into the first couple times god help you and what people will do then is rather than undertake the hard work of being alive the hard work is here the the realizations that I had change how I live here but the hard work is still like I'm I don't know. This is a great talk. I'm going to leave here. I'm like, I think that was a good talk. And then I'm going to be like wrapped up about some business thing, you know, or mad about something that somebody did to me or wondering about some, you know, uncertain thing. And then the, you know, the demons come in and kind of steal your joy. So the hard work is here and planet of earth. Why are we here? That again goes to the meaning of life question. The, like, take the garden of

Eden story, for example. Even if it's not real, why was it written? I mean, if it's not real, it was written as a metaphor, I suppose. Why, though? To tell us about the nature of God and man. That's one, yeah. But I think it's, this is not our home. Yeah. Right? We just, we know, we don't, we know we don't belong here, right? The Garden of Eden is, whatever this is, this is not, like, we were, whether we were cast out of Eden because we listened to the serpent and we rejected God, whether that's literal, that's a metaphor. The underlying feeling is that we are aliens on this planet. Yeah. However we got here is a different question. The New Testament says that a lot. And we're just like stuck in these like bodies that don't want to cooperate and that want to

lead us to things that we, on a spiritual level, maybe don't want to do. So, So the only real downside that I've seen from people who have done the plant medicine, although there are bad stories. Like after I had a really big night and the guy said, you know, if you're thinking about leaving your wife, call me first. And I go, I love my wife more than ever. I was actually, it would be the opposite. He goes, okay, he goes, but she had a big night.

So what happens is a lot of times that people have a big night, the facilitator or shaman guy isn't good or he's fly by night and you're just like oh i realize i'm not living the way i'm supposed to and they just like up in their life yeah i know someone who did that yeah yeah so that is a 100% of risk and that's why i'm i'm always hesitant to talk about it because i don't want to seem like i'm glamorizing it i want to like when i talk about iowasca i want it to sound kind of like foreboding yes maybe you shouldn't do this you probably shouldn't do this you probably shouldn't You might just blow up your whole life. You probably shouldn't do it to avoid people going in and saying,

it's like, no, bro, you didn't want you. You were just bored. You were just bored and now you destroyed your whole life. And the real work is the homework. The homework is this, what we got to do here. The downloads in the universe might feel great at the time where you might feel like you have all this insight and connection to a superintelligence to superpower, but you're still back here on planet Earth.

So why don't you spend more time here in this body and play in Earth and figuring out the best way to live your life? Has the experience made you more aware of like the spiritual realm around you day to day? I see everything as spiritual realm. Yeah. I see everything as being interests, entities trying to act upon humanity in some kind of cosmic war that we don't really understand. but for whatever reason, humans are a very important part of it. Now, my belief, again, is the Orthodox Christian part which is, like, I accept the Orthodox Christianity story is the true one, but I'm just, you know, I'm trying not to be a, like, I'm a priest, because God, go to Josiah Trenum or someone if you want a priest, stay far away from me. Like, people ask me religious questions. I'm like, get away from me and find Josiah Trenum. I feel the same way.

So far away from you, please. I have no standing. Yeah, yeah, get away. So I'm just saying, like, my own belief is that God created man, we have bodies, the demons envy us because they can't be satiated. They don't have bodies. They hate us. When they attack us, that's their revenge against God. So the demons are constantly trying to use us.

They can't be satiated. How in, why do you say that? Because they're floating around in a spirit. They've been denied bodies so that they are roaming around like in a zombie kind of state. I always thought that one of the hallmarks of, like, hell on earth is the inability to be satiated, satisfied full. Yes. Whether it's eating bad food or having the wrong kind of sex, it's like it's never enough or drugs or alcohol or... Insomnia?

Yeah. Imagine, yeah. So they're walking around in insomnia and they hate us. They hate humans and they want to hurt us and they more importantly want us to hurt each other to harm God. That's how they see us. because the demons think they're going to win remember like if you're a christian we say well we know how the story ends god wins in the end right the demons don't believe that though we believe that they don't believe it so they believe that they can turn us against each other they can get us

to hurt each other they can like a lot of demons enter people through traumatic experiences yes they believe they believe they're going to win this is not and their minds they are the in the end. They're going to win. So they want to use us to get us to harm each other because they see that as harming God more than anything else. So we're constantly being acted upon. So I'm constantly like praying for discernment, discernment, discernment, discernment, discernment, discernment. Am I being manipulated? Am I being led astray? Because, I mean, on a political level, I've been played before by people, by sources, not knowing it. Oh, me too. And then I find out. A lot. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm so like, When people tell me things, like, oh, here's the truth about the Venezuela raid, or here's the truth about Israel, or here's the truth about Palestine, it's like discernment. Am I just being played? Because everybody wants you, you know, especially at your level, that's why I was telling you guys earlier, like, I thank the Lord above that I am not you, that I am not Russell Brand, that I am not Tim Poole, that I am not any of you guys. Because I'm so weak and pathetic. I couldn't imagine if I had your guys. No, it's not. You can say that. You can brush it off, but.

I have so many dogs and children that it's like, I don't even notice. But, uh, or I make myself not notice, but no, but I think anyone who's in a position where other people listen to him is under particularly fierce attack. Constant. No, just imagine that the text like JD is. That's right. Just like unreal. Um, because even sometimes I'm like, yeah, you know, I'll see something you said.

Like, I don't agree with that. And I go, man, I'm not going to be another guy texting talker nagging him about. Please too. Nagging him about something. But no, so there is the risk that, as you've seen happen, a person is kind of an ayahuasca tourist. They go in. They go, oh, my whole life has been a lie. And therefore, I'm just going to, like, blow up my whole life.

Don't do that. And if the person you're with is not, if the shaman or whatever, the facilitator is not telling you, like, don't do. that, then you're in the wrong place. But other than that and people getting caught in the trap of downloads, I've seen like the biggest, baddest men on the planet that just want to, like, hug their kids. And they went from PTSD and staring off into the void and drinking and fighting with their wives and riding motorcycles too fast just for a rush. And because, frankly, like, maybe it is a death wish.

Of course it is. And then you take away responsibility because you go, oh, I just got in a crash. I didn't kill myself like some pussy. You know, I just got in a wreck. But really, they're trying to kill themselves and just become like, it's actually pretty, it's actually changed my view on a lot of this like real men, don't cry and you see all this bravado. And I'm like, dude, I've cried with the Delftor's guy. I've cried with the Steel Team 6 guy.

You are not more, whatever your definition of manly is, you are like not more. If you ever see like Marcus Capone is like this. you are not more mainly than Marcus Capone or DJ Shipley or any of these other guys. That's like for sure. So at the very least I do hope it, because again, I don't want people to listen to this to go to Iowa. It's an immense, that would be immensely damaging for somebody to do that based on what I'm saying to me. I don't want them to do it. That wouldn't be a nice thing to do to me.

But I do hope that people can say, yeah, what's the big deal? like I'm by myself in a room and I'm praying and I cry. Why am I holding it? Who cares? Right? And then find that part. Ego is the reason. I think you're exactly right.

So last question. We're in a period of, we're in a huge change period, of course. And one of the qualities of it is chaos. It's just a chaotic moment. It's hard to understand, especially if you're, you know, 50 and you've been watching this stuff your whole life.

It's like all of a sudden this is a departure. how much of that chaos is like spiritual it always has been i mean you remember that song sympathy for devil rolling stone of course what if that's not a song what if that's real right what is real right so in my view that the the the jacobin terror the bolshevik revolution the spanish civil war what's happening in ukraine yeah it's all the same it's all part of the same strain so i think that we because again you're born into a certain period of time and then we tend to overweight the time that we're in and we see it maybe in a different color than it should be. We're not like your son isn't getting drafted into the Vietnam War. We're not getting

drafted in the World War II. We're not getting drafted into the World War I. I think that in terms of even though he's kind of a lamester, Stephen Pinker's like Better Angels, I think we were on the trend to towards a better world than we've seen that that's been upended but that we're still in a good time and what we do want to have as our as our north star is is like preserving order knowing that like we're going to have conflict but if we can find some kind of ally ship or alliance and that means everybody has to pull their own weight then we shouldn't give into the rancor and the infighting and I I used to be an end fighter and like infighting a lot and I've cut down on that by at least half.

That's a good New Year's resolution. Mike Sternovich, that didn't go in the direction I'd anticipated was much better and more interesting and deeper. Thank you. Thank you, my pleasure.