The Ultimate Blog Podcast - 95. Improving Your Email Deliverability with Alyssa Dulin from ConvertKit

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

We have Alyssa Dulin, the leader of the Creator Growth Team at ConvertKit, on the show to share about improving your email deliverability. We define email deliverability, the importance of it, and Alyssa shares best practices for email marketing. She shares strategies to improve deliverability, such as keeping the email list clean and encouraging subscribers to reply to emails. We chat about metrics such as open rates and click rates as well. If you are wanting to learn the best practices to improving your email deliverability, this is an episode you are going to want to tune into!Thanks for listening! Connect with us on Instagram: @sparkmediaconceptsConvertKit is the email marketing hub for creators like you. Check out our affiliate link for more information.Check out the show notes (link below) for more information including links and resources mentioned in today's episode!SHOW NOTES: www.sparkmediaconcepts.com/episode95

Welcome to the Ultimate Blog Podcast with Amy Reinecke and Jennifer Draper. We're on a mission to empower women who want to start or grow their own blog. This podcast is for women who want to learn blogging basics and who crave inspiration and encouragement. Whether you're just getting started or have been a blogger for years, we're excited to welcome you into this space where we are passionate about creating community over competition. We are bloggers who want to encourage you to believe in your potential, step outside the norm and step into a life where you create your own schedule, your own success and your own story. Join us for weekly episodes as we navigate blogging

and work from home life all while raising a family and having some serious fun along the way. all while raising a family and having some serious fun along the way. Email marketing is one of the biggest foundational pieces that we think bloggers need to pay a lot of attention to. And we're really passionate about it. And so is Alyssa Doolin. And today, we brought her on the podcast to talk about email deliverability. So when we're talking about email marketing, and making sure that you are corresponding with your audience, with your community, and making sure that they are getting that content that you're creating, deliverability is a really key piece. Alyssa Doolin leads the creator growth team over at ConvertKit, which is the email marketing company

that we highly recommend. And she's really passionate about helping creators and entrepreneurs reach their audience with better email deliverability. Welcome to the podcast, Alyssa. We are excited to chat today. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. So I met you at the ConvertKit conference back in June of this year. And if you guys are looking for an excellent conference for online businesses, for content creators, bloggers, there's all kinds of different entrepreneurs there. It is an amazing conference. So I just want to plug that first and foremost. It's in June, again, next year in Idaho. And I think Jennifer and I both agree. It's definitely one of the best conferences that we've ever been to. And we learned a ton. We were able to network with a lot of people, meet a lot of new people, and get a lot of new ideas. So you were one of the presentations that I went to about email deliverability. This is something that I think if you are paying attention to your email stats,

you want to make sure that people are actually opening your emails and that we're spending time doing the right work there. But for the sake of this podcast, I think we want to start at a really basic level. And so Alyssa, can you tell people what exactly you mean by email deliverability? Yes, such a great question. It is a strange word that you don't just hear all the time, and it can be confusing. So the really like general definition of email deliverability is basically, are your emails going into the inbox or are they not? There's two words that get confused a lot. So I like to use this also as a way to define deliverability. deliverability. There's email delivery. And that's something we're all pretty familiar with, which is like, are your emails getting delivered? Or are they getting bounced? And I think we've all sent a message, even in our personal, like Gmail or Microsoft, whatever. And you get a return message back that says, this message doesn't, you know, it bounced, the email doesn't exist. So that's a

really clear delivery or bounce. And anytime you send an email, you get that sort of feedback. It's really clear and easy to measure. Deliverability is this weird mystery where your email, if it does get delivered, it can go to the inbox, it can go to the spam folder, it can go to the primary tab, it can go to the promotions tab, it can just disappear out of thin air. And the sad thing is there is no feedback for that. So when you send out an email, it doesn't come back and say, yeah, you landed in the inbox

or uh-oh, you landed in the spam folder. There is no way to truly know. And so that's why I have a job because I get to sort of wade through that mystery and figure out, are your emails going to the inbox? Why are they landing in the spam folder? And how can senders have better deliverability so that they do land in the inbox?

I think that's so interesting to think about the fact that you think you're communicating with these people and there's a possibility they're not even seeing it at all. Right. And then you feel frustrated. You're like, well, why are they opening my emails? Well, they're not ignoring you, possibly. They just never even saw it in the first place. Exactly. And that's scary to think about. Because for a lot of bloggers, creators, entrepreneurs that have bought into email marketing, and they're doing it, they're spending so much time on it, it becomes the core of your business where all your sales are coming through your email marketing. And then if that goes away someday, because your emails are going in spam folder,

that can be really scary. So I do a lot of making sure people don't get to that point. But then if they do, helping them figure out what's going on and fix it really quickly. Let's just clarify what we mean to anybody who's out there listening that is just getting started in email marketing. So they sign up for a service like ConvertKit. And people are able to put in their email addresses and say they want to subscribe to your email marketing. So these are typically mass emails that you send out to your entire list to either tell them about a new blog post, to send them a newsletter to give them more information or to market something that you might be offering or selling. So I just wanted to clarify that to anybody who's more of a beginner listening to this. And I think that helps us to understand

why it's important for these emails to reach somebody because this is your business and you are communicating messages in your business through email, which can be a really effective way to connect with your readers or subscribers. And so this is a really important topic. Email marketing is an essential piece of blogging. Growing your email list is just as important as SEO and keyword research in our opinion. And in order to grow your list, you need a reliable platform that will allow you to connect with your community and turn them into email subscribers. That's where ConvertKit comes in.

ConvertKit is the go-to marketing hub for creators like you that helps you grow and monetize your audience with ease. ConvertKit allows you to grow your audience and reach, put your funnels on autopilot and earn an income with your email list, all with an easy to use platform that is approachable, even for beginners. Click the link in our show notes to learn more about the different plans that ConvertKit has and how it can help you propel your business to the next level. The people on your list are people who have opted into your list. So there are people who have actually taken that next step and said,

I want to be on your list. I want to get the emails that you're going to be putting out. I like your content. I want to stay connected. So you aren't adding people on this list. They are adding themselves, essentially. So I appreciate what you do, Alyssa, because if those people have opted in, and they're saying, Hey, I like your content, and I want to make sure I see it, and then they never see it. Well, that's problematic. Right? So what kind of sets ConvertKit apart to be able to offer

a better deliverability rate to anybody who uses ConvertKit? Yeah, such a good question. I love talking about this. It's so interesting. One of the things that's crazy about email is how much it is used by spammers or malicious senders, which I'm sure if we all dug into our spam folder right now, we would see that clear as day. But that actually does impact the way everyone here and everyone listening sends emails, because mailbox providers have to stop those spammers. So they're doing their best. And that might get some people's emails, you know, caught in the spam folder. But then on the ConvertKit side, ConvertKit and companies like us are targeted every single day by spammers. And ConvertKit is a

service that you can just sign up for right now. Anyone can sign up and get started with free trial. It's very easy. You can start sending an email in minutes. So we have developed these amazing systems to catch spammers so that they can't use our service. Because if they did, if they tried to, they can hurt the reputation of ConvertKit's IP addresses, the domains that are good senders, our bloggers, our creators, they're all using those same IP addresses and domains. So that's why it's really important. It's the... I don't know. I think it's a cool part of deliverability. But something that's very in the background that people don't talk about very often is the fighting spam part of it. So at ConvertKit, we have a whole engineering team

dedicated to this, which I found to be really rare. And all sorts of machine learning rules. We have a team of humans looking at flags that are popping up saying like, Hey, check out this account. So basically, we just take it really seriously that the mail leaving convert kit should be, like you mentioned, fully opt-in. These are people who want to hear from these creators, bloggers, newsletter writers. We often shut down large accounts that aren't following best practices. And it's a lot of money we're turning down. But it's really important to us that deliverability stays high,

and that we stay to the core of our business, which is helping creators earn a living. And that means saying no to a lot of money that we're like, that's not the best sort of emails or that's going to hurt our creators. So that's what really sets ConvertKit apart is taking deliverability so seriously and making sure that any male leaving ConvertKit is top quality, following best practices. And then of course, if a real creator or blogger is struggling, we don't just shut them down. We're going to help them and clean up their mess with them. Yeah.

So can you kind of define a little bit what you mean by best practices? Yeah. So can you kind of define a little bit what you mean by best practices? Yeah. So we have our sort of like acceptable use policy that's based on best practices. Number one is that everyone on the list needs to have opted in to receive those messages, like you mentioned. I think there are some areas that I've seen creators with good intentions fall into a trap of like, this friend of mine who's also a blogger has this email list that they collected and they said they'll share it with me. Something like that. That never goes well and hurts deliverability. Something like those giveaways. Maybe you participated with three other bloggers to give away a Peloton and everyone who signed up gave you their email address and it was shared between

all the bloggers who participated. Those don't ever go well. So in general, the best thing to do is to make sure every single person on your list said, I want to receive your emails because those people, they want to be on your list and they're going to enjoy your emails. They're going to interact with your emails and they're much less likely to mark them as spam, which hurts deliverability. I would say that's the top best practice when it comes to deliverability. I think that's important too, because the goal isn't to just get a ton of people on your email list. I mean, we're paying for these people, first and foremost. So to be financially responsible, we want to make sure that the people who are on our email list are actually people who are

interested in what we're saying, that they're going to open it, that they're going to engage with it, that they're going to potentially be purchasing any products that we're sharing, that they're going to be going over to our blogs and consuming the content that we've spent time creating. We're not trying to just get more people on the list. It's not like social media that you're trying to get more followers just for the vanity metrics of it. But you really do want your email list to work for you, not against you. Yes, that's such a good call out. Quality way over quantity when it comes to email. And it might be different, like you said, than social media or something like that. Because with email, having a really large email list that's low quality actually does hurt you. And it can make it harder to reach the people who want to receive your emails because now all your emails are going

to spam. So definitely making sure the people on your list really want to be there. They weren't tricked into being there somehow, because that's not good for you or the subscribers. So for everybody who is following those best practices and actually getting the permission and getting people on their email list, then I feel like the next step might be, are there things within the emails that you are sending out that you need to look for so that you don't get either flagged as spam or that you're just not being spammy to those people? Yeah, that's such a good question. I think it obviously varies so much person to person. But one thing I see bloggers run into is the frequency of emails being mostly too high, either on accident or on purpose.

So I would recommend sending usually... I think one email a week is a pretty good sweet spot. Some people can get away with like two to three emails a week, depending on what you're sending. I think usually a daily email doesn't make sense unless it's like part of what you do, like the skim or morning brew where it's a daily newsletter about news. Okay, that makes sense. It's a daily email. But for most bloggers or creators, weekly seems to work really well. But what you don't want to do is fatigue

your audience and send them way too many emails. Everyone's inboxes are very full. So that's the most important thing is making sure when you do send emails that they're really high quality. And they're not just adding more noise to the inbox that your subscribers are really excited to open them and engage with them. Because if they don't, what happens is they start to become unengaged. And then they sit on your list and you keep emailing them and emailing them and emailing them. And they aren't opening, aren't opening. I don't know why there's a lot of people who don't just unsubscribe. A lot of people just let things sit. And the more that those unengaged subscribers stack up and build up, the more it hurts your reputation as a sender.

It's sort of like a credit score that you carry around with you. And those mailbox providers like Gmail, Microsoft, Yahoo, are going to look at that and say, Hmm, you know, a lot of people are not opening these emails. So they're probably not wanted. I think they should go to spam folder. That happens over time. It's not going to happen overnight. But that will happen if again, you're just sending way too many emails, fatiguing your audience, and never change the frequency or you never clean up your list. So for example, if you're sending emails to like people that have subscribed with a Gmail address and a Yahoo address and all of that, are each of those individual companies

looking at the emails that you're sending to people that use their service? And that's how they're determining if those people are not opening those emails or they're not interacting positively with those emails or they're tracking it from their end and that's how it's getting put into spam. Yeah, exactly. That's one of the big inputs. So every entity has their own sort of recipe for like, how to decide, you know, where a mail should go, they have their own rules and algorithms. So it's going to be different. Normally, if you're seeing some spam issues, you're not going to be seeing them with every mailbox provider unless something is really wrong. It's going to be more like, huh, everyone with a Microsoft address is telling me my emails are going to spam,

but everyone at Gmail is fine or vice versa. So they don't use the same rules and they only see what's happening on their system. So that's, yeah, a good thing to bring up. There are some like outside sources they also will pull data from. I don't want to get too technical on the podcast, so I won't.

I'm going to just really skim the surface level of it. But there are things called block lists that can put someone's sending domain or sending IP address that belongs to your ESP, so that'd be ConvertKit's IP address in this case, on a block list. And Gmail, Microsoft, Yahoo have their block list that they pay attention to. And if you're on one of those, you could see deliverability problems. That's very rare. We have a whole team at ConvertKit making sure that doesn't happen at ConvertKit. I would say the listeners probably don't need to be worrying about block lists. But just to make sure I give you some information about it. The main reason that happens is if somebody purchases a list, which we've already said, you know, don't do that. Or if they have a really old list, like if you found a list that's 10 years old, and you're like, Oh, let's see what

these people are up to. That could land you on a block list. Those are the main two reasons I see. I think the question that comes up for me then is, we've talked about not using these old email addresses, having people that aren't opening your emails. Can you do anything about that to sort of clean up your list, so to speak, to really target the people that are still engaged and still like wanting to be there? Yes, that's a great question. So that goes into definitely another best practice is cleaning up your email list. It's something that should be part of your routine. And a new feature at ConvertKit is a way to do that automatically in the background, which is nice because then you don't have to go through the emotional turmoil of like

deleting a thousand people off your list. It's just sort of happening in the background. But obviously, make sure it's set up correctly. And if you ever want to email me, I don't mind. You can email Alyssa at ConvertKit.com and I'm happy to check your setup for you. But yes. So the recommendation I have is that if someone hasn't opened an email in the last, like 180 days, start them in a re-engagement sequence.

And the goal of that is to kind of revive these people, remind them why they signed up, maybe ask them some questions, get their preferences. You can figure out like, maybe they're not interested when I talk about X, Y, Z, but they're really excited about this one topic that I do talk about every now and then. You can tag them appropriately and only send them emails that are about that topic they care about. So I would say that's like one to three emails of like,

hey, I miss you, trying to reconnect with your audience. And then if it's still not working, if they're still not engaging, then the last email would be an opt in confirmation email. That's basically I'm sure we've all seen them like do you want to stay on the list? And then there's a big button that says like, Yes, keep me on the list. And anyone who doesn't click that should get removed from your list. And again, in ConvertKit, there is an automation, a sequence that you can use. I believe if you search our help center, you can find one called automatic list cleaning. And you can copy that

right into your account. But yeah, that process is very helpful to keep your list clean in the background. And you can keep your reputation healthy. Those people who just sort of fall off and become unengaged won't be hurting your reputation. I think that that's a scary thing for a blogger to do. But I think it's a necessary thing too. So I'm glad that you gave some really tangible timing and how many emails. So every 180 days, make sure you're looking at this and then sending one to three emails. I would recommend not just deleting them off of your list. But like

you said, doing that re-engagement campaign, if you're not with ConvertKit... Well, you should be. But if you're not, you might want to figure out how to set up an automation within your email service provider. But I really do love that ConvertKit offers that as something that can just be done in the background. We often try to help the people who are listening and our students to work smarter, but not harder. And that's just another way that you can do that in order to make sure that your deliverability stays up. Because that's the goal. The goal is that they're actually going to be opening the emails and engaging. And if they're not doing that over a period of time, then that's

obviously telling us something. But my question about that is, is what if those emails, they are actually interested, they want to be on the list, but they're going to the promotions tab that somebody literally never opens. I am one of those people. I very rarely go to the promotions tab. So is that considered spam if it lands in there? Or is it considered your inbox? Great question. So the promotions tab is still the inbox. I know for some senders, it might not feel that way. But it is. So that's the good news. You're not in the spam folder if you go to promotions. And just to get a little bit more into what the promotions promo tab is at Gmail. So Gmail's goal is to make their users, so your subscribers, have the best experience possible. And the way they want to do that is by... We all have stress around our inbox piling up. And imagine all those emails that go to your promotions tab

actually being in your inbox. That, to me me feels stressful. I have so many emails going to promotions. My phone would just be buzzing constantly. So this is Gmail's solution to that problem for their subscribers who opt into it. Not everyone has this turned on, but they see the primary tab as being where you're urgent. You need to look at these emails, sort of emails go. And then the promotions tab is where things that aren't so urgent should go, you know, promotional type emails, but that you might still like and are interested in. That's why they don't go to spam. They think these are good emails that you want, but they're more promotional. They don't necessarily need to be like buzzing your phone or contributing to your unread messages count. But obviously, for a lot of

ConvertKit customers who are sending newsletters and horse launch emails, things like that, they don't want those emails to go in the promotions tab. They want them to buzz someone's phone and to go into the primary tab. So I definitely understand the frustration. But I've run a lot of tests on this. And is no like rule you can follow to always go to the primary tab. There's no way to outsmart the system and you know for what we're doing email marketing it is promotional even if it's a newsletter with no ads in it and it's very like informational. If it's one to many and you know you and it's a promotional type of email, it's not like a letter from a doctor or your grandmother or your boss or something like that. But I have helped plenty

of people with this problem. There are some people who really want to be in that primary tab, which I get. So the things that I have found to help are keeping your list super clean, like we just talked about. When people have really highly engaged lists, I've seen they go to the primary tab more often. And secondly, a really great best practice is encouraging people to reply to your emails. If a lot of people are replying to your emails, that makes Gmail think that they are more like transactional in nature and more urgent. So that's a great way to get your messages over to that primary tab. And there are plenty of ways you can do this authentically. You can ask a question of your

subscribers. You can... I always give this one as an example. But our CEO, Nathan Berry, he has a great newsletter. And in his newsletter, he pitched like, Hey, I'm thinking about doing this new project, but I'm not going to promote it. It's only for my email newsletter. Would you all be interested? And he got thousands of replies. People were like, Yes, yes, yes, please.

It was like a private newsletter he wanted to start. We're not all going to start private newsletters. But that's just one example of if you have something like that, tease it to your audience and ask them, Would you be interested in something like this? Or do you think I should do this? And you'll get so many replies. One thing I do is in my welcome sequence, I introduce myself. I have a picture of me and my son and also my cat. And I say like, write back and say, hi, I would love to learn more about you. And I get a pretty good

amount of responses from that, which I think helps my deliverability. I think it kind of teaches people from the get-go that you are not just sending them emails, but you are actually curious about them being part of your community. Yes, definitely. There was a great talk at Craft and Commerce. You might remember Logan Urie. She talks all about dating in her newsletter. And she had a whole presentation about replies and how she uses her newsletter as more like a community builder. And she had a whole presentation about replies and how she uses her newsletter as more like a community builder. And she'll ask these questions of like, have you ever been stood up on a date before? And then she gets tons of replies from her

audience. And then she'll use those replies for her next newsletter. So they're kind of helping her with content too. And it helps the subscribers feel like they really are part of a community. But also her deliverability is amazing. So I love that tip. Okay. I have a question, something that just came to mind when you said that. So let's say that you send an email out. Not everybody opens it because if you have 100% open rate, like, yeah, that's not real. Tell us your ways. But like, then you have that opportunity to like resend it. Do you recommend doing that as a way to like engage people that might not have seen it the first time so as with many things i say it

depends if you're really good at keeping your list clean so you know the people on your list like are engaged and want to be there and then i say it's okay to use sparingly When it gets dangerous is if someone doesn't ever clean their list. Because what's happening is they send out their first email and all their engaged people open it. Then they send out a second email only to their unengaged subscribers. And it gets very low opens. And so they basically just sent a bunch of positive signals to Gmail of like, look, people love my email. And then they send really negative signals to Gmail. like, look, people love my email. And then they

send really negative signals to Gmail. And it's like, no one wanted this email. And it's very confusing for the spam filters. And just never a good idea to send like a bunch of really negative signals all at once like that. So I would say if your audience is really highly engaged, and you clean your list, like we talked about, it's not going to hurt you too much. I wouldn't do it for every single send, because I do think that can burn out your subscribers. But when I've seen people do it, if it's a really big launch, a really important email, or if something went wrong in the first email, I've definitely seen that happen. Maybe there was a typo or an incorrect link or a deliverability problem. Sometimes someone's been like,

Oh, I sent from the wrong domain and a bunch of emails bounced. I'm like, just resend that. So I think there is a time and place for it. And it can be used every now and then. But I wouldn't do it with every single message. So Amy brought up the fact that not 100% of people are going to open your emails. And we've talked a lot about making sure you have good engagement from your community. How do we know? How can we look to see... If we're using ConvertKit, for example, how can we look to see how many people are opening the email?

Are emails bouncing? Are they getting delivered? What information do we have access to as a creator? Yeah, that's a great question. So in ConvertKit, specifically, the two main things you're going to be looking at with your emails are the open rates and the click rates. The caveat, unfortunately, to all of this is that these are not perfect metrics at all. Let's put that aside for a second. And I'll give you some benchmarks of what a good open rate and good click rate are today. This changes all the time. But you know, it's 2023 now. I'm like, what year is it? Oh my gosh. I would say like a healthy open rate right now, honestly, is probably really good. It's like 40% plus. Like that's a good open rate. 25 to 30 is like, okay. Like 25

to 39, I guess, is like, okay, room for improvement, which is crazy to say, because that used to be such a high rate. And then anything below 20% to me raises a red flag. But these days, whenever I'm looking at a creator's open rate, I'm mostly seeing 40% plus the really, really engaged newsletters and things are seeing like 50 to 60% open rates. Click rates can really vary because everyone's content is so different. Some people send emails with no links. They're just very like long form. But in general, I would say like a 2 to 5% click rate is pretty normal. But shall I get into why open rates are not perfect? Okay, so yeah, this is a tricky subject. And I'm sure some people listening have

already wondered about it. But there was a change by Apple a couple years ago now. So basically, open rates are very inflated. If someone is using the Apple Mail app on their phone or on their laptop, I'm sure you've all seen that little mail app. I don't personally use it. But if your subscribers are using it, and a lot of them do, Apple has this new thing where they will automatically open any message that is sent if someone's using that app. People had to opt into it. But the screen where you opt in, it was like, do you want us to share your data with everyone? Or do you not want us to share your data with everyone? So most people opted into it. And it's that data privacy protection setting. So what happens is, again,

if Apple Mail sees an email come in to one of those people, it's going to say opened, even if they didn't open it. The good news is from the testing that's been done in the deliverability industry, it seems like they will only automatically open emails that go to the inbox. And if your emails go to spam, it doesn't get automatically opened. So the good news there is that it's still a signal that your emails are going to the inbox, which really is very helpful for the open rate to be telling us that. That's kind of how we

diagnose deliverability issues is, how are my open rates? So we can still do that. If your open rates drop suddenly, it can still mean like, oh, yeah, your emails are going to spam now. And they weren't before. So we haven't lost that ability to see trends and see what could be happening with deliverability. But what we have lost is the ability to say like, this subscriber is doing XYZ, because a lot of times it's going to be an automatic open. We don't know if it's real. And that's tricky. I hate that. But metrics are just a lot harder in email than they ever have been before. And it's harder to know what's truly happening. So that's why, again, replies are awesome to get and see what real humans are doing. And then anything you can track past the open.

So clicks and purchases. Did they go all the way through my sales funnel and do what I wanted them to do? That's always helpful. But yeah, sadly, opens are just... They're not perfect. They're still helpful, but they are not perfect. I think that's good information to have though. Because if the goal for a blogger

is obviously going to get people to click over to their website to go look at the content they just created most often, then having those numbers, you don't want to feel like you're necessarily doing something wrong, but it is just an inflation of the numbers. So taking that into perspective and into account when you're looking at, okay, if I need X amount of traffic, and I need to send X amount of emails in order to get that traffic, then you can kind of come up with the number that you need a little bit easier versus having this unrealistic expectation that you're never going to meet because those numbers are inflated. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Knowledge

is power, for sure. But we have talked about a lot of different things in regards to email deliverability and everything. Is there any last final tips that maybe we didn't get to that you feel like could be encouraging for somebody who is wanting to improve their deliverability? Ooh, hmm. I would just, I want to reiterate the reply thing. I think it's a way bigger strategy than some people realize. That's one of the best things I've seen people actually put into action and then see their deliverability improve. So

really recommend go out there now if you already have email marketing set up. If you have some automation set up, think about how you can add a reply step in there and get your audience authentically replying to you. And if you're able to reply to them back, that's awesome. I know it gets really overwhelming. One thing I did is in my Gmail account, I have a label set up so that any reply to my newsletter goes into that label folder. That makes it so much easier for me to sit down and be like, okay, I got to reply to

all my replies and knock that out. So that's a tip I would give if you are interested in engaging with your audience that way. I think it really pays off to get people to stick with you, be an engaged audience member who will eventually, I'm sure, pay money for things. So I think replies are a superpower. Be sure to use them. And the automatic list cleaning or any list cleaning, even if it's manual, is a must to keep your deliverability healthy. It's been really helpful. I'm off to clean my list up this afternoon because I can see how important that is. Nice. Well, thank you so much, Alyssa. Can you please let everybody know how they can contact you if they do want to ask a few more questions in regards to deliverability,

or maybe how ConvertKit can support their blog and business? Yeah, of course. So like I said, feel free to email me Alyssa at ConvertKit.com. And I'll definitely get back to you. If you just like deliverability content, I have a Twitter or I guess now it's called X. I don't know that I don't use enough. But sometimes I do. So you can find me there. I think it's at Alyssa underscore Doolin. We have a podcast at ConvertKit called Deliverability Defined. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to like that one because it's the same thing. Melissa and I talk about basically what you just heard for the last like 45 minutes. We talk about that all the time, but different little facets of deliverability, as you saw, it can get deep quickly. So yeah, go check out

Deliverability Defined. And if you're a ConvertKit customer needing deliverability help, we have a team that's here to help you. So feel free to email me, like I said, and I'll make sure we take a look. Thank you so much, Alyssa. Thank you. Thank you all. Thanks so much for tuning in today. Thank you all. ready for the next step and want to start your own blog, join the waitlist for the ultimate blog bootcamp. The link to join the waitlist is also in the show notes. Go out and make today a great day.