The Underworld Podcast - 50th Episode/holiday Q+A Special!!!

Episode Date: December 14, 2021

We meant to get this up a few episodes back for the 50th episode special but figured it would work for the holidays. Danny and Sean go through all the questions they've received from listeners about the podcast, their careers, and Sean's crippling gambling debts. If you've ever wondered what sort of cricket bets can cost you a finger, this is the episode for you. We'll be back next week with regular eps! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Welcome to the Underworld podcast. I am one of your host, Danny Gold, and I'm here, as always, with Sean Williams. We are two journalists that have traveled all over doing stories about all sorts of crazy things, a lot of crime, and every week we bring you a new story about organized crime all over the from the past, from now, even sometimes from the future. And except for this week, actually, because this week, we wanted to do this for our 50th episode, but we wanted to, you know, keep giving you guys good episodes.

And we figured around the holiday time, it would be perfect to do a Q&A. We reached out to folks on our Patreon, patreon.com, slash into a world podcast, because we get questions all the time. And we want to answer some of them. So here we are. Yeah. We got some, like, serious ones. We got some funny ones and we got some stuff about, I guess, what we've done in our careers.

So yeah, it's kind of, you know, I mean, Christmas is coming up. You guys, if you want to go back for any of the old stories, if you want like one of our scripted shows, we've got like, well, 50 something of those as well. Yeah, if you hate the banter, if you hate the banter, if you hate me and Sean, if you hate us talking about ourselves. This is not the episode for you. Go back, listen to the other ones. They're all great. But for the rest of you, let's get this going. Our first question is from Trist B.

Given the nature of the organization's handling production and the supply chain, is it unethical to do cocaine? Hell of first question there. I mean, it pretty much, Sean and all his friends in Berlin, it's going to be a tough one for them. I mean, oh, God, like, is it unethical to do cocaine? Maybe, I don't know, like, yeah, it causes a lot of issues around the world, but I guess like we say a few things that are pretty consistent in the show is that, you know, whatever the truth is of the whole situation, the way that we do it at the moment doesn't work. So war on drugs is bullshit and it's racist and it's like it's killing people. And prohibition, I mean, it didn't work with booze and it has a...

Bro, bro, it's not, it's not that serious. All right. All right. yeah sure like enjoy yourselves i mean you know yeah world's going to shit so yeah might as well do you know there's there's there's worse worse things you could be doing um maybe don't don't don't involve yourself in uh in shootings over trafficking it but for the most part i think you know if you do you do tell us about it because then we can put you on a bonus patreon episode as well yeah that's sure also yeah let me just say thank you to everyone who's been listening and sending us questions

and doing all that stuff we really we like hearing from you guys especially those of you on both sides of the law who give us sort of insight into what's going on and invite its places to go see what's happening. So thank you for all that. Yeah, there really is a lot of people from from both sides of that line. Yeah, and it's great. I mean, it makes our job easier and I think it makes our episodes better. Akash, you both have reported from some incredibly dangerous locations. Are there any instances where you genuinely feared for your lives or thought that you might not make it out? I mean, I don't know. I usually don't think about these things until afterwards.

And I think, Sean, you were kind of saying something before. In the first version of this that we did that we had to start over again, how like there's a lot of things you look back on when you were younger that you're like, I should not have done that. And, yeah. I have a bunch of those. I'd say, especially on video, the first time I got really pinned down was in Central African Republic. And I wasn't used to that much gunfire around me and not knowing where it was coming from.

So that was pretty, that was pretty gnarly. And there was definitely times when I was reporting on Ebola when I was, like, lying in my apartment afterwards in New York, thinking that maybe I had got Ebola, even though it's kind of hard to get. And just imagining myself on the front page of the New York Post and then just making me out to be this monster, this like idiot vice reporter got Ebola and brought it back to New York. But luckily, that did not happen. I think it happened to a doctor. And he went bowling afterwards. But that's another story. I mean, bleeding out of your asshole to death.

is a hell of a way to go. I mean, it's kind of very vice to me. I don't know. Yeah, it would be a hell of way to go as a vice reporter. Did you, uh, Sean, do you have any instances like that? Yeah, I mean, it's like when I, when I first decided to go freelance, I just like spunked all the cash that I had on a trip to Somalia. So like, where is dangerous and where aren't people going? Because that's a great thing to do when you're like 22 or 23 or whatever. And I mean, I was just dumb. Like I got in some really stupid situations, as you can imagine. I think I've had Michael Scott Moore on, a bonus patron episode who got like kidnapped by Somali pirates for about two, three years.

And when I was hearing his story, I was thinking, Jesus, like, probably I was like a few yards away from having the same kind of fate myself. But I mean, there was one situation that maybe wasn't that dangerous or maybe it was, I don't know, but I was in this little town and I was doing a story for Vice, actually, back when Vice were doing feature stories about kids from some kids from Ethiopia that had been like traveling to Somalia to find a better life. I mean, imagine how shit that is. And I was taking pictures of them,

this old guy who was like a religious figure, started whacking me around the back of the legs with his stick, like his walking stick. And my fixer was like begging me not to take any more pictures. And then in the end, like he and his friends chucked me in a prison or a jail. And it was like, have you seen the toilet scene out of a train spotting? It was like that.

It looked like that everywhere. And I spent a night there. And yeah, I basically got putting a Somali jail for taking pictures of little kids. That was their excuse. And not listening and not listening to your fixer. Not listening to my fixer. I think we're going to have a couple of questions about fixes and I've got a couple of

good ones there. But yeah, always listen to the fixer. Yeah. Jess Purvis. Oh, should I keep going? What do you think? Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, you go for it.

Go for it. No, are there any other things where you thought you were going to die? Anything good? Maybe some club nights in Berlin. But I think that's a bad. Yeah. Doing research. Yeah.

Always. I always do my own research. I did it before it was cool. Jess Purvis. Any documentaries or particular pieces of journalism that inspired you? It's a good question. Yeah. You go. All right. Actually, the book that made me want to be a journalist. I think I was traveling at the time when I read it was the Zanzibar Chess by Aidan Hartley, where he talks about being a reporter in East Africa in the 90s. So that one definitely inspired me. Anything that like Luke Mogulson has written, I think is always something that, like, like that always gets to me. I think his one about the boat trip,

the boat airlift, I think was from the New York Times Magazine, about pretending to be like a Georgian refugee. Oh, Christmas Island. I don't remember. Yeah, no, no, yeah. And then they went on, they went like on a raft,

like a boat trip. Like they pretended to get smuggle with a bunch of Afghans and I think others from, I don't forget what they were, to Australia. I mean, it was just, it's one of the craziest stories

I've ever seen. That was definitely inspiring. I don't know. I love, like, Dexter Philkins and John Lee Anderson, the stuff that they used to write. When I was just starting out, that was always the stuff that I kind of wanted to write, and that stuff always inspired me. Yeah, I mean, I love William Langavisha.

I mean, anything that he's done before, I was just kind of, like, completely goggle-eyed reading his stuff. But, like, I don't know. Like, I never really grew up with a lot of journalism around me as a kid, but as I got older, I guess, uh... Yeah, I mean, it sounds really like... cliche, but a load of Hunter Thompson's early stuff, like the Hells Angels book, that was really, really cool. It just seemed like a really cool life to get into, I think, and that sort of, like, Gonzo stuff was completely alien to me as a young guy. So, yeah, that, I guess.

Yeah, all that really good, like, 70s, 80s, 90s, like, Esquire, GQ sort of journalism, you know, dispatches, I think is another one. Oh, dispatches is a very good. Yeah, yeah. I think Toby's book that we've talked about Kilo It was almost like a close to a modern day version of that. I think it's fantastic, but definitely, definitely give that a read. And if you haven't, I mean, this is also really cliche, maybe people haven't heard of it, but like behind the Beautiful Forever's by Catherine Boo is just,

like as a character study, it's about her life. It's about her being in a Mumbai slum for, I think, a couple of years and just saw this low-level daily corruption gang crime that goes on in people's lives there. That is one book that you could read in one sitting and it's just incredible piece of art. Yeah, I'd recommend that to anyone. All right.

Next question is Michael from Toronto. While covering a story on location, have either of you been presented with an opportunity to involve yourselves in nefarious and illegal activities? And if so, why did you do it, Sean? Oh, cheers, Michael. How the fuck have I got this rep

over the course of this? I just sort of like deflect that stuff because I think people assume I'm more likely, so I deflect it towards you. I just come out with the accusations ahead of time just to save myself. Oh, God. I mean, yeah, the stuff with the Burmese Meth Lab, there was a lot of weird stuff going on on that trip, which is one reason why I had to go back there a second time and redo the story.

Because, I mean, massive props to buy a Stewart in London, but, yeah. What happened out there, bud? I mean, you know, me and me and my pal, we got pretty singular focused on finding a meth lab. And when you're doing that in the middle of the jungle and you're meeting certain people that want you to do certain things. I mean, you just kind of fall into. Just, I just want to let you know that this isn't just me and you talking. Other people are going to be able to hear this. Yeah, no, nothing happened.

And I went out there because I'm really professional. And I really wanted to do a good job in the story. but yeah let's just say if you are going to do any of the substances that are mentioned in the story that I did for GQ don't do it out of a did you we do that an old guy who's here on the street um for me not on a story and not on location but I'm open to it if you're out there you know it's been it's been a rough year for all of us Patreon these advertising dollars they're not coming through so you know if you need us. I can teach you. I'm pretty sure I could teach someone how to launder money with NFTs.

And I feel like that's a good skill to have if you're in organized crime. So, you know, hit us up. You know, maybe, maybe you'll, maybe you signal. Maybe don't use Gmail, you know, but we'll, um, we'll work someone out. We're open to it. I'm open to it. Sean's probably open to it too. Let's be real. I'm open to it. I couldn't fucking do it. Yeah. Shall I, should I read out another one? Wait, I think I skipped everyone right here from, from Armandante. I'm glad. Yeah. Yeah. All right, I'll do Dante's question, yeah. I just wanted to ask, is there a particular gang from history or currently from your native area you'd love to cover or speak more about, whether through adoration of their guile or just their plain idiocy?

I'd love to hear. Yeah, I mean, I love all the turn of the century, like late 1800s, early 1900s stuff. You know, before there was really organized crime, they're sort of like Monk Eastman and street gangs and five points and all that sort of stuff. I don't know if you've ever read Low Life or Gangs in New York, like the old book. I'd love to, I mean, I love learning about that stuff. I think it's fascinating. I'd love to do more on that. Also, there's like, you know, a situation in my neighborhood involving my block and the

Abbott's Fields houses that's been going on for, for, like, decade. And it's just like the stupidest thing. But I'd love to, I always thought doing a story about the sort of inner workings of these like block beefs that escalate over time and go on forever. It was almost like half of the McCoys, you know. I'd love to do that and I'd love to get involved. But it's weird because, you know, there's people that I'm friends with involved and it's also somewhere I live, so you want to be a little more careful.

But I always kind of fantasize about being able to put something on that together and doing it in a way that I don't think has been done a lot in journalism and media in general. Yeah, that would be such a good nonfiction book. Just the story of one block in Brooklyn. That'd be awesome. I don't know. Like, yeah. I feel like how many different nationalities live on your block?

Because I feel like every single time we do a New York story, there's Belizeans, there's Trinidadians. No, no, no, it's mostly. No, I mean, on my block in particular, it's mostly West Indians and Panamanans. But, I mean, that's the fun part of New York, right? And I keep going back to do like, you know, I'm working on one right now.

It might even, it might air just before this, but I'm not sure there are so many good stories about that stuff in New York. I think L.A. to Toronto. So London, I'm sure it has a bunch too. You know, these sort of, I kind of like doing those stories too, whether it's, you know, even not just the turn of the century. You know, 70s, 80s, 90s and things like that. Yeah, all right. I kind of want to find out, I mean, my granddad passed a couple of years ago.

And I want to find a little bit more about him because I've heard some like interesting stories about him working with gangsters in southeast London. And he was a big dude. And like, from what I've heard, he basically went around, uh, getting. stuff out of people on behalf of others. And I'd kind of like to look into his stuff because it goes into like the craze and some of these organized crime outfits in like 60s and 70s.

So yeah, I guess Southeast London, dodgy guys there associate with the craze. That was what I'll go for. All right, here's one from James. You always joke about Albanians. First of all, we never joke about Albanians. We never talk about Albanians.

Never talk about Albanians. But are there any definable underworld groups that you know or suspect exist, which you aren't comfortable? saying anything about. If so, could you give any hint at what type of organization person this is? I mean, you know, the stuff that we're doing these sort of overviews and these stories, it's not like we're digging super deep into like investigating their finances and things like that. So I think I'm pretty comfortable doing stuff about any group in that regard.

You know, I don't think we have to worry about those sort of threats in anything. I'm sure there are local journalists. I'm sure people doing like the nitty-gritty stuff that definitely do. I don't think we have much to be concerned about at the moments. I mean, who knows? There's always people yelling at a new, over like DM or whatever, but it doesn't really matter that much. I mean, I would say the block thing makes me not nervous.

It's just I'm a little more reluctant to do it just because it's like people I know. And, you know, you're putting some of their business out there and also people might not take it the right way. And it's where I live. But I think if I had the opportunity, I would definitely do it. But, you know.

I mean, I've had some pretty ham-fisted their threats from the Nigerian guys because like the black axe guys are pretty much everywhere but it's kind of funny. I don't know. Like what's the point worrying about that? Nah. And like I guess what we're on the subject,

like the local journalists of the heroes, right? We do so many stories about like narcos and the cartels in South America and like for every Western journalist that goes in there and writes like amazing work. I mean there's probably like 100 local journalists that are just playing their trade every day. and they're getting like shot and threatened and all kinds of horrible shit.

So yeah, shout out to them. James, have you dealt? Oh, James again, have you dealt with a situation where during an interview someone causes you to know that they were planning a specific act of violence where you potentially could prevent a person or people from being hurt killed in a specific plant attack? I've never had that happen. I mean, people make threats all the time and like, we're going to do this. If this doesn't happen and blah, blah, blah.

But I've never been in that situation where someone was like, here's the. blueprints of what we're going to do, you know? Yeah, I mean, I guess the closest I've come to that to, like, go back to Nigeria again, I spent a day in a little village where a lot of women were being trafficked from, and I kind of saw this witch doctor. I should put some stuff up on the IG, actually, for our show, but it's like local witch doctor kind of like putting juju curses on girls that were going to get sent off into Europe to be sex workers.

and that, like, seeing that and kind of being pretty powerless to do anything about it, made me feel awful. I don't think any, I don't know if that counts as violence, it probably does. But that's the only thing I don't think of. Yeah, but I mean, you're powerless in that situation, you know? There's definitely been situations like that where I'm powerless. There's not much you can do. Yeah.

But, yeah, I don't know. Just to say, too, you know, these are all questions from the Patreon. Patreon.com, says in the world podcast. You don't hear a question today and you want to ask. ask us stuff, you know, we respond to pretty much most things that people send us, unless they're angry or complaining about stuff, although we welcome that if you're actually paying us. So, you know. Yeah.

Jonathan Russell. Someone asked earlier about Al Capone and if you would do crime from that far in the past, and I was wondering the same, maybe stuff about the gangs the peeky blinders were based on. That must have happened before you just did an episode on them. Yeah. Because we just did an episode on them. Any plans on episodes about biker gangs like Hells Angels? just an episode on New Zealand ones.

I think we definitely want to do one on the on the Scandinavian Biker Wars and the ones up in Quebec, which are pretty nuts. Who's the nicest gangster criminal you've ever met and why? I mean, very few of them aren't

like nice and convivial when you meet them. Like they're pretty, like the kind of bigger guys are pretty, I think you mentioned it as well, right? When you're in Thailand and your pen fell apart and stuff like this. like most of these guys are pretty pretty nice to speak to um because they're trying to convey a certain message

i guess if you've got on the wrong side of them you see another side of them but i don't know nice is gangster no idea all all the uh all the all the all the 18th street guys that i spent time with in el salvador i mean they were technically quote unquote reformed um they were pretty they were pretty nice dudes. I mean, they were, they made me soup. It was a, it was a pretty chill situation. Again, though, you know, like, we're seeing a side they want to see for the most part. There's definitely people who want to intimidate you as well. But no one where it's made like a giant lasting impression, like, you know, or anything like that. And then there was another question. Sorry, go ahead. Actually, I know that we joke about this, but one of the coolest guys that I met who definitely was a gangster was a guy in northern Albania who like, I spent a day with, he was playing with loads of Racki.

We had a great afternoon. He was trying to kill someone's son over a blood feud. That's all great. Fine. I'm sure, like, this 12-year-old kid had it come in. And we had a pretty crazy day. And he was nice. And I love Albania.

And so does Danny. Could you have stopped it? Could you have ended the blood feud? Like, our other question? No, like, the cops were getting involved at that time. So I think it was just about to all get broken down. And last I heard of it, like, nothing happened. So he was telling me, like, I don't know if,

many people have heard of these bloodthews in Albania, but they're nuts. Like, once they start, you kind of just have to outdo the other stuff. Bonjour, compadre. It's the... Priceline negotiator! How do I negotiate so many great travel deals? My greatest gadget. The Priceline app. It's got hotel deals, flight deals, rental car deals. All of those deals in a bundle. Deals. Game Day deals. Concert trip deals. No one deals more deals than Price Line. Hold your horses. There's more. The app let you filter hotels by neighborhood. Star Level and amenities like pools and spas and beach fronts and wait I'm not done

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slash unde-W-R-L-D-W-R-D underworld no vowels, spelled G-E-T-Q-U-I-P-C-U-I-P-R-D, Quip the Good Habits Company. And finally, this one might sound stupid, but who have you met on the other side of the law that you've really rooted for to turn their life around? Man, I root for most of these guys that turn their life around, you know?

Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, my buddy, Ezo, that I film with a lot in St. Louis, he was getting locked up for fentanyl distribution when I met him. he had to go to it. I was definitely, I'm always pulling for him and trying to figure out what,

he's, you know, stayed out of trouble. But a lot of folks, I mean, all the, a lot of the guys I met in El Salvador, not all,

but a lot of them were like, um, you know, reformed they had converted to, or taken up evangelical Christianity. I'm definitely pulling for all that, man, because the,

the other side of that is not, is not pretty. So, I mean, there's so few people that I've met that I've, like, I want you to be killed or, you know,

Lock them away and throw away the key kind of thing. I want everyone to get better and live a better life. That doesn't sound too much. Yeah, no, no. I feel that. Saagal, how did you two meet? We've never met. No, we still haven't met.

We keep making plans. I'm going to Berlin. He's coming here, but they kind of fall through with all the ways things are changing. But this came about because I had the idea to start this, I think right around the time the pandemic hit, and there was going to be no work for anyone. and I was looking for a partner. I kept running into stories I wanted to do,

and Sean's name was like at the top. Like Sean had written them. And then I had the idea to ask him. Then we were with another friend of ours who was a producer for a lot of Doc series. Well, I was with him with Bill Wheeler, and he was like, you should talk to my buddy, Sean. And I was like, I've been meaning to do that.

Reached out of Sean, he was game right away, and that's kind of how it's been. So we actually, we have not met yet. Yeah, shout to Bill is like the Guardian Angel of this podcast in many ways. Yeah. Get that Patreon up. I'll fly out there tomorrow. Damn.

Yeah, then you'll see some crimes. Berlin in January? I mean, what work did you want? Oh, my God. It's, yeah, it's not a healthy place to be. We'll meet in Miami. Andrew, Andrew Mackie, has a fixer ever died while you worked with them? God, no, they have not.

And I do whatever I can to make sure that it won't happen while I'm working with them. It won't happen because I work with them or anything like that. I mean, I've never been heard of anyone. one's fixer dying while they've worked with them. Have you? I mean, not naming it's definitely happened and people have definitely done things to get local journalists that they've worked with in trouble, you know, they've been careless in how they treat things or do whatever. That's definitely a thing that that happens. People get locked up. People get in trouble. But I, yeah, not, not something that's ever happened to me. I've seen some. I was going to say, like,

I know a bunch of people who, like, were in Afghanistan who, who, been trying to help their fixes that are getting kind of hunted down by the Taliban now. I guess that's as close as I can get to that. Yeah, I mean, I've, but that's a little different, I think. I've had situations, definitely had situations where fixers have, like, saved me, and definitely had situations where I wanted to smack my fixer upside the head. But for the most part, I've got great working relationships with nearly all of them. You know, a lot of them I still talk to.

But I've been in situations, like, with other journalists where you're out there in a gang neighborhood in El Salvador and they were like, don't, don't, this was not a guy that I was working directly with because he would never do that. But they were like, don't, they're like, don't take photos of the gang guys right now. Like they don't want that. And, you know, we went in there. And on the way out, this woman was taking photos as we were driving out. And they saw and they yelled at the car, but our car just kept going, you know, but that doesn't fall on us, right? That falls on the guy who brought us in and the people who took care of us in there. Yeah. And anytime I hear of situations like that or see them, it's really aggravating.

those dudes take a lot of risks and people, you know, sometimes don't, don't respect the fact that, like, they get to leave, but those guys don't, and they're much more of a target. Actually, I mean, we kind of sing the praises about Fixers a lot, and rightly so. And if people want to hear some good stories about that, your interview with Toby, I think it was like our first bonus show, was it? Like, way back when, I remember listening to it and it was blazing sunshine last year, that was really cool and listening to how. folks in really hot zones like narco corridors of like Columbia,

how those guys are really putting their life on the line for your work. Oh, yeah. That's pretty incredible. I know the guy he's talking about it. I met him when I visited Toby. Yeah, he was a mover and a shaker. And this is another question I get from Grebster, Grebster 11. Journalist ethics when it comes to fiction particularly and the media outlets by whom they are paid.

In light of the previous comments you both have made, which were professional and ethical, how can you insure by you're getting access to a narco through the fixer, the store you follow does not imperil the fixer, his family, and so on? More broadly, what ideas do you have as professionals pertain to the ethical dimensions surrounding the use and protection of fixers? That's a simple question. Just listen to them. You know, like, I can't guarantee anything.

But I don't put people in positions where they tell me not to do something. I don't push them and push them and push them. You know, every now and then, if someone's being a little lazy, you know, I'm going to get on their case. But that's basically it. And the fixers, the local journalists that you work with, like, they know the risks, you know, they know what they're doing and they, they, you know, this is their job. And it's, it's really, really hard. And I don't, you know, look, if they tell me not to do something, I'm not going to do it.

But if we go to do something and they're like, we can do this, we're going to do it. I think luckily, I haven't been in a situation yet where I've gotten any of my fixers in trouble. And I, you know, they also know the risk better than I ever will. So I think it's all about just listening to them when it comes down to that. And, you know, if they get into a situation where they misjudge it and they get in trouble, if you can help them, like help them get out, help them get on the run, something like that, you know. It's, that's a lot easier to do when you're with an organization and not independent. And I like to think, you know, a decent amount of organizations I know have been pretty responsible about stuff like that.

Yeah, I mean, and also it's like a relationship, right? And there's very little in a relationship that can't be sorted out by having a beer on day one and like really hammering out what you want to do and what's cool and what's not cool. Like I think a lot of the issues that I had when I was younger that were like, I don't know, friction with with fixes were just because there was a lack of communication. So I guess that's really important too. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Next one is from Philip. I was wondering if you two can maybe talk about your path into and throughout your journalistic careers. Yikes. Jesus. Yeah, I'll go. I'll go. All right. I'm going to give you a rundown, right?

And this should tell you guys everything about how informal a career journalism is. I started out as a builder. Then I worked on the news desk of a gossip paper in London. Then I worked in documentaries about ancient history like Stonehenge and Roman ruins and shit. And then I went out to Dubai and worked on a trade magazine about broadcasting. That was during the Arab Springs. That was fortunate. Then I moved to New York where I bummed around and ended up being a receptionist at a reality TV show because they liked my accent. Then I moved to Berlin. I went to Somalia and then I got on the freelance wagon. But yeah,

that is around the house's way of getting to journalism. Oof, yeah. I mean, mine is a little similar, a little not similar. I worked a bunch of crummy jobs to do some traveling when I was younger. And then I decided I wanted to make documentaries. So I worked, again, I moved back home. I worked a bunch of, I was, you know, like working as like a like a, like, I don't even know what you, like an assistant like a crummy real estate company. I was like an AP on like big movie sets and things like, not on sets. Like, not on sets. in the, like, just like, you know, crummy office work, but I saved money because I live at home. And I took, like, a one-month class on how to shoot film. That's actually where I met Toby. And then I went and I tried to make a documentary about African refugees in Israel. I got back. The documentary didn't go. And this is like probably in my mid-20s. Documentary didn't go anywhere, but I thought it was good. So I use that to go to the city university here for journalism school, which I did for a year and a half, which was great

because American universities, like Columbia, NYU, are tens of thousands of dollars and CUNY is pretty much free. So, yeah, I did that. After that, I started working at newspapers, but never full time. I was what they called like a stringer or a permalancer first for the New York Post

and for the Wall Street Journal. At the journal, I knew I wanted to work overseas, so at the journal I would save up money. And, you know, I worked on some big stories where I was paid by the hour, you know, so I'd work on some stories like Boston bombing or Hurricane Sandy where I would be running for like eight days,

in a row, like 15, 16 hour days. So you save up some money. And then I would start taking trips. So I went first I went to northern Iraq and Syria just because I, you know, spent a lot time researching yet. I had a contact there. Met a photographer I could go with, you know, and I did that for like a month, you know, spent a lot of money. He didn't cover my cost at all, came back, was able to get like one or two articles out as a freelancer, back to work for like five months, went again, this time the Turkey in Syria, sold a bunch of articles, broke even, came back, you know, applied for grants, got a grant to go to Burma, came back from Burma, sold a bunch of articles, and then I got an offer from the guy who was starting Vice News

to come work for them. And yeah, and then I went with them, and then I was kind of off and running with that. And that's kind of how I started doing video as well. And then since then, I was there for a couple years, and since then it's just been freelancing and trying to, you know, put together a shows and series and things like that. And then this. And then this. Yeah. Yeah.

We'll see. We'll see how this goes. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I can give anyone advice. I'm probably not the best person to do so. But like I remember I remember I was in some like hideous hostel in the middle of nowhere and like Burundi. And this was only like two or three years ago.

And I was talking to a friend back home. And I was like, isn't this the most. Isn't this the most glamorous cool? thing in the world that like I'm in the middle of nowhere in central Africa and like there's a hole in the floor as a toilet and I'm going to go off into the mountains and do something and maybe see some like fighting or something and he's like that is what you've just described is absolutely fucking terrible and I think it's the worst thing ever and it's funny what you think is cool when you're a journalist I don't know sometimes you feel like something you feel like

The weirdest, shittest parts of the job are just, like, absolutely amazing. And I still do think that, even though I think to most people, they would be just god-awful. But, yeah, that's a bit of an aside. Anyway, yeah, so that's the, I don't know how you would do that now. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless they had a substantial amount of money. Yeah. But Brady writes, if you were to put the two most ruthless gangs you both have ever covered against each other, who would win and why. I don't know, man, like a Royal Rumble,

whichever one was biggest. I don't know how to answer that. I mean, the El Salvador ones that you've gone over, like, I reckon they sound pretty horrendous, the way they're just, like, taking people down in the streets. Yeah, I mean, there's, well, there's just a lot of them. Maybe the ones who function, I would say, more like a militia would probably,

but I can't remember who that would be or who we've covered. I feel like that would probably be the most, the most ones you don't want to mess with. In terms of, I don't know, like on the street, I have no idea. No, I'm trying to think of stuff that, I mean, we've done like a billion episodes. There's so many of them anyway. I feel like there's guys who make, like, YouTube videos about that, you know? I mean, the South American cartels are hideous.

So I don't want to come up against any of them. Maybe it's just like between the Colombian guys and the Mexican guys and then, I don't know, whoever got the most American guns wins. Yeah, and that could be, oh yeah, the cartels, of course. Yeah. I don't know how I, yeah, of course. Yeah, the cartels, man, the, all the, the Mexican cartels. I guess that the, the, Otoniel, the one that Toby talked about, I'm drawing a blank on

the name right now. But yeah, the cartels, of course, I don't think anyone could do anything with them. Yeah, maybe the worst part about that question is that maybe the two or three worst cartels in the world maybe actually are going to have a fight in the next couple of years. So we'll actually get to see what happens in real life. They are right now. What about the, uh, the wa? Don't the Wa have like a air force?

The war I've got an air force. I don't know. I mean, you don't fuck around with the Waugh, but also the Waugh don't really mess around with anyone else either. They just got their own little thief them. So I don't know. I don't know. The Wao versus the new generation cartel.

Yeah. I mean, those, I mean, the cartels go up and down, but it's definitely in terms of like gangs, cartels like that. I mean, in terms of other groups we've talked about, we've done stuff on like state sponsors. concert groups. So North Korea, they seem pretty, uh, oh yeah, seem like they can, they can do some damage. Don't go in there, um, trying to take down pictures. You get, you get, you get, hez, hezbollah, you know, they, uh, so we say,

Hezbollah versus North Korea, that'd be a good fight. Yeah, that's, that's a good showdown. Someone should, uh, do a YouTube video about that. I mean, I'd watch them. I mean, I'd watch them. Yeah, Trist B, are you guys aware of any Western nations taking direct, uh, you military action against South American drug trafficking organizations. I don't know.

I feel like the U.S. has done that in Mexico, no? Or was that more federal DA? I don't know. Yeah. What's the thing with like, you know, cartel stuff? We're not experts on that stuff. You know, there's so much out there on that and there's people

who look at it like every single day. Like those Reddit boards are insane. I don't, I don't stay. up to date with like every little thing. I don't know, you know, the top 50 guys in each cartel and stuff like that. Like, we're not, I'm not tapped in like that. And I don't have the focus or the patience to really dive into it like that, you know? Yeah, I mean, you're coming to us for Belize, right, guys?

I mean, it's Belize, North Korea, I don't know. Yeah. We're not like particularly experts on the cartels. But we'll do plenty of shows on the cartels. Yeah. And then we are experts. and you should listen to us at least 10 times over. Ooh, here's, here's one.

If you had to be Instagrammed in the crime of any pod subject, who would you prefer and least prefer? I mean, I would definitely... Okay. I don't know if I understand the question, but I think it's like, who do you want to be involved? Like the guys, all the Nigerian scammers that we did who were just like living in luxury,

I don't know. They seemed like they were just like eating shellfish platters on private jets. I feel like I would get down with that. That seems like fun to me. I don't know if I want to go back to Dubai anytime soon. But who else is like, who else is living their best life? Who else is having a good time? I think a lot of them have a good time here and there, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think again, like, I don't know, I love Berlin. I'd just be one of the clans and just like hit it up at the Shisha Bar. That'd be cool. It's pretty much what I'm doing anyway. Yeah. Who would I least?

I think Toby talked about Otoniel. the other Colombian drugloor that was just caught. How he was quote unquote living like a peasant, just like on the back of a donkey in the jungle, getting sick all the time, you know, other cartels, the Colombian government hunting him. That sounds very unpleasant to me,

or any of the ones that are in prison, but I guess it's like who would, while they're committing the crimes, yeah, that sounds very unpleasant to me. So talking about people who you don't want to piss off, probably a tonneal. If he's listening to this show, like, I didn't do that answer, mate.

That was Danny. So, yeah. Dude, he's locked up right now. He's not going anywhere. I mean, do we think he's going to stay there? I guess he's actually going to be in the U.S., so yeah, he might actually stay put. Yeah, I don't think he's going anywhere anytime soon. You know, Sean, people are always asking us to do cyber stories, but I have a 2012 MacBook Pro. I don't know anything about computers. But if you like the Underworld podcast, you are sure to like, what the hack with Adam Levine.

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As Adam, Bo and Travis speak to the unfortunate victims of cybercrime, listeners will make the scammers unhappy. That's a good thing. What the hack with Adam Levine? Listen, laugh, and learn wherever you get your podcasts. And now a word from our advertisers, Sean, who does not love a good murder mystery? I mean, don't we all, right? I mean, that's why we're journalists. We love a good mystery. And in the hidden object murder mystery game, June's Journey,

you are getting to play detective, you're right in the middle of the Roaring 20s, it's like a thrilling adventure, and you play as June Parker, who is an amateur detective, kind of like me and Sean, investigating the mysterious death of her sister, It is free to download. So, I mean, it's a can't lose. You know, Sean, you've been actually playing a lot, haven't you? Oh, yeah. I've been getting deep into this mystery, being really enjoying kind of how beautiful the scenes are.

And also I've been enjoying building my house because, yeah, in the game, you get to build loads of stuff around your house. And it's pretty much the only time I've ever got a sniff at the property ladder. So that's pretty good for me. It's testing your powers of observation, your memory, logic skills, all of that. It's a good time. Make sure you download June's Journey for free today on the Apple App Store or Google Play. You know, Sean, doing what we do, conflict journalists, everyone I know in this career has had to find a therapist at one point. But it's expensive.

It's a hassle to find someone. It's a hassle to go to their office. Now there's betterhelp.com slash underworldpod. You can go there. You can find a therapist. They'll be communicating within 48 hours. It's safe. It's a private online environment.

It's super convenient. Yeah. I mean, I use better help myself. It's been super useful, all kinds of things. I mean... For the moments that matter, choose Kyrad Naturals. Infused with aloeuvreira and vitamin E. Kiraad Natural's bandages protect your unexpected scrapes, cuts and burns,

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What is something about the podcast that you want people to know that they might not know? Yeah, I just think like, you know, we try to get four episodes out every month, which means that Sean and I are picking a topic, researching it, taking notes, and then writing it up. With the ones that we've already reported on, it's a little easier, but it's like, you know, we really do try our best. And if we get a couple things wrong here and there, you know, we try not to. We try to be as accurate as we can. And it's just a lot. You know, we're really trying to get you guys really interesting, really great stories as much as we can.

And we're really appreciative for everyone who's listening and this thing keeps growing. So that's pretty cool. But yeah, we're putting a lot of work into this. And, yeah, I mean, that's pretty much it. What about you? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I guess if this show tells people anything, it's that we do actually really, really enjoy getting feedback and talking to you guys and like hearing you message us on the IG and get in touch on the Patreon and like help us make these things. It's like it actually does mean a ton. It does mean a lot. And we really enjoy chatting to you guys.

I mean, I've been chatting to a couple of guys just today. Like one was in Bali, another one was in US, I think, about like some really interesting stuff that they were getting up to. So yeah, just like reach out. We want to hear from you. Yeah, and I would say too, you know, that's another thing too.

I feel like people on podcast a lot want to be like they're experts. I don't think we're not experts in all this stuff, you know. I think what we can do well with the stuff that we haven't been able to actually get out and report on is finding the experts, you know, and quoting them. But if you really want those like really academic expert things,

you know, by the books that we talk about, look at the academic papers. If you really want to dive deep into the stuff, don't just listen to like two guys on a podcast or two guys on any other podcast. And that's for any subject in general. We always shut people out. I mean,

yeah, I was going to say do your own research, but you can't say that anymore now, right? Can we finish on that? That's such a, do your own research with people who actually know what the hell they're talking about. That's what I mean.

Like actual, you know, journalists who have dedicated years to this academics, things like that. Like listen to those people. Yeah. Yeah. All right, that's probably a good note to leave it on, right? Yeah.

No, no, we got a couple more, dude. Let's finish us up. You got a couple more? Yeah, a couple more. Okay. Tony Bince says, how do you take your coffee or tea? Have you put the tea in there just because I'm British? I mean, I don't really get tea.

So coffee. Trader. I mean, coffee, third wave, maybe with a bit of oat milk, flat white. I don't know, black coffee, whatever. I don't care as long as it's like getting me out of bed in morning. Yeah, I used to be really big. to just getting like bitter black coffee from the bodega, then putting ice cubes in it so I could drink it as fast as possible.

But I'm pretty sure that was part of the reason that destroyed my stomach lining. So now I just drink like, you know, whatever culpr I can find with some milk in it and that's it. I mean, that's all I got. But send us coffee as, can we do it? Is that a thing? Isn't it like a thing where send someone a coffee,

but you just send them five bucks? Oh, the coffee thing, that app. Yeah. I mean, just do the Patreon guys. I mean, it seems annoying. Yeah. Anyway, Sean O'Connor, big fan of your work. Thoughts on decriminalization of drug usage in the U.S.

and whether it will affect the production sale of illicit substances from Mexico and South America. I mean, I don't know. They're not going to decriminalize cocaine and heroin, which is where the real money is coming. I think there's still some people making money off of weed, but I don't know. And then also the weed situation in the U.S. right now is crazy. Like in California, people getting robbed left and right, grow houses getting hit.

It's like it's pretty gnarly out there because the lack of federal oversight. But I think, yeah, I mean, I think, of course, if you decriminalize anything and I think it will have an effect, I don't think, I don't think, but I don't know, man, they're not going to decriminalize cocaine or heroin. So I don't know how that would,

how that would work. I mean, look, look, there are drugs that are big in Berlin, that Berlin is famous for, like, MDMA, ecstasy. They're not doing any harm ever. Like, they've been proven to be way less harmful than alcohol, tobacco, like, all of this stuff. So like, the whole idea that there's just this blanket term of, like,

illegal drugs is just complete, like, bullshit anyway. Like, definitely those sort of, like, I don't know what you call them. Were they hallucinage? I mean, sometimes they're hallucin. Well, yeah, but that's not, the question, the question isn't whether they should be or shouldn't be. Is it, if they're decriminalized, do you think it will affect, you know, the production and the illicit sale?

Um, It depends on the situation down south of the border, right? More than anything up north. Yeah, I can't wait to get that peer Philip Morris ketamine. You'll have a good time. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, I mean, I don't know. It's such a complicated question.

I mean, I obviously think weed being pretty much legalized in the U.S. definitely cut down on it coming from Mexico. A lot of other countries definitely cut down on that, especially because that weed was usually not great. And that's another thing too, like the technological breakthrough in, you know, freaking chemists and scientists made, like, growing extremely powerful weed and really fine-tuning it. Definitely, definitely had that effect of, of, you know, removing some of the market for

all the other dirtweed that we used to get where you have to pick season stems out and all that. But I, I guess it has to, to a degree, right? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's going to do, it's going to, but I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to put a bet on, like, how it's going to. going to change that production. Because I mean, you know, if you decriminalize cocaine, the coca is still going to come from the same places.

So you're going to have to find a supply chain somewhere. And that's going to be corrupt. And that's going to just reflect the politics of that country. So, you know, you can legalize cocaine in California, but you're still going to be getting the coca from Peru. And that's my intelligent academic take on it. Vaughn Nelson Lee is our last question What was a gangster interview experience

That surprised you the most Hmm I don't think I have one that one I mean it's always weird to talk to these guys And have them be like Relatively normal and making jokes And you know, trying to be charming But it's not

I don't think I've had someone Or it's been like super shocking to me The love I've had I've had You know like like fighters like in Syria who like really love Diane Keaton and um and like all the divas like the singers you know Sarah Taup, Mariah Carey and Celine Dion and all that. That's always a little surprising but in terms of a gangster stuff,

I don't think I've had anything that's super surprising. What what Diane Keaton movies are they into? Not Diane Keaton. I'm sorry. That's a mistake. Diane Lane. Oh, right. Yeah, I mean, Diane Lane's cool, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say they like watching a load of woolly animal. films or is that not really making it? No, Diane Lane, not Diane Keaton. Yeah, two different people. I don't know. I mean, there was a, there was a kind of funny story. We did an episode on it that I did a story for GQ in Iceland a couple of years back on a big Bitcoin heist. And I met a guy who was like really violent drug smuggler used to take stuff over from Rotterdam as everything comes from in Europe. And he was just like joking around, having a beer, just talking about,

beating the living shit out of someone in like a way that was kind of both endearing and completely terrifying at the same time because it was Iceland everything was just like nice and jaunty and fun so it never seemed dangerous I don't know that that guy was really really interesting yeah I think that about does it so happy holidays to everyone if you want to you know give us a happy holidays patreon.com I think this might be the most I've hyped it up I was wondering when you're going to segue for that one, yeah. It's hidden those wallets, man.

You know, I got nephews, bro. I got to take care of them. Patreon.com slash the underworld. I got to take care of myself too. H.n.com slash the underworld podcast. Thank you guys for putting up with this special episode. And yeah, we've got more stuff coming. Like, we're going to keep going.

Even next week we have a new episode. And, you know, we're not stopping. So please keep listening and tell your friends about it and give us five-star ratings and subscribe. You know, all that other stuff. When this one runs out, just let all the other ones play through for the next 12 hours as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Help us out here. Hey guys, it's Melissa Gorga from Melissa Gorga on display. And I am very excited to give you a little look into episode two. I am going to be talking to New York Times best selling author Dave Quinn, who wrote the book with all the juicy scoop on all the real housewives. Dave, I'm so excited to talk to you. I am thrilled to be here, Melissa, and I have to say, you have so much behind the scenes that happened on the Real House House in New Jersey that you've never spoken about before. So I'm ready to get you to open up about all those things. Let's make amends for the tea you didn't spill when we talked in the book because you were so nice to everybody.

And I promise you, Melissa, I'm not going to sing on display to you over and over again. But just know that in my head right now, that's what's playing. On Reef. Of course it is. What else would be playing in your head right now? Okay, listeners, make sure you listen to episode two of Melissa Gorga on display. Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money, whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now at Bloomberg.com. Ryan Reynolds here from Mintmobile, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much.

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