The Underworld Podcast - The Gunrunner Who Tried to Save China: Two Gun Cohen

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

On Christmas Day, 1941, as bombs tear Hong Kong apart, gunrunner Morris "Two Gun" Cohen — a street hustler from the slums of London turned Canadian frontiersman turned Chinese general — stares down death from a hotel room. From underground boxing rings to arms deals, Cohen fought the Japanese and Soviets, battled communists, warlords and mercenaries, and drank his way through China's bloodiest years. This is the story of the outlaw who ran guns and dodged death while becoming the bodyguard to the father of modern China. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Christmas Day, Hong Kong, 1941. World War II is fully raging. Pearl Harbor's just been hit, and bombs are falling from the sky all over the British colony as the Japanese war machine is in full swing. Morris Tugan Cohen is sitting in his room at the Hong Kong Hotel awaiting his fate. It's not a great situation to be in because the Japanese are not big fans of the infamous gunrunner. He's been able to stay one step ahead of them for some time, slipping out of Chinese cities like Shanghai, Nanking, and Canton, just before they marauded through them.

But this time, his time, is up. The only question now is, are they going to kill him right away or torture him for information for a while first. Hong Kong had been a bit like Casablanca. Well, the movie Casablanca. With war on its doorstep, it was full of spies and adventurers and soldiers of fortune, gunrunners like Cohen, and also lots and lots of partying and boozing, something Cohen was an expert in.

If Hong Kong was Casablanca, Cohen would definitely have been Rick. But the similarities kind of end a little bit there. At 200 pounds and standing only 5 foot 8, the former boxer, who was literally prize-fighting in underground boxing matches when he was just nine years old is an imposing force. He's also legendary for his capacity to drink booze and throw those parties. Oh, and gamble. In fact, you could Butterfly effect how exactly he ended up here by tracing it back to him

hanging out in illegal Chinese gambling pollers in Canada. But yeah, how the hell did a poor Polish-born Jew who grew up in the slums of London and then made a name for himself in the underworlds of Western Canada end up here. And how did he end up as the pistol-packing bodyguard to a guy who many consider the father of modern China, and then a massive arms trafficker who helped deliver all sorts of weapons to the Chinese soldiers now battling the Imperial Japanese War Machine? In fact, Cohen had battled the Soviets, the Japanese, various Chinese warlords, communists, mercenaries, and more with guns and with diplomacy.

wrote Daniel Levy in his biography of Tugan, quote, China between the wars was the wildies. It was the last great frontier, filled with adventurers and fortune seekers. Cohen seemed made for such a land. This is the underworld podcast. Welcome back to the Underworld podcast and audio and now a visual experience that takes you into the harrowing worlds of international organized crime, past, present, and future. Brought to you by two journalists, myself Danny Gold,

and my esteem co-host, Rogue Adventure, from the slums of London, Sean Williams. Technically, he's not officially a gunrunner just yet, but if this video thing does not pan out profit-wise, we're going to get there. And, yeah, Spotify, right now we're doing video for them. Definitely want to make sure you guys know that. I am coming to you from Spotify studios in New York.

Sean is coming to you from his son's bedroom in New Zealand. Is it weird that I'm wearing the shirt of the podcast, you know? Check it out, guys. I'm going to watch. Is that like wearing the shirt of the band that you're going to, type of deal. You know, fashion companies, this is an incredible opportunity. We're experimenting. You know, we've got sunglasses on, too, as you can tell. Yeah. So you can't sort of just see our eyes zooming in down on the screen the entire time. Hit us up, Dita. I want those $900

Mike McDaniels, Miami cocaine sunglasses for sure. It's a great opportunity. Yeah, personal is good, too. I'll have them. You can actually see my son's toys if you, like, zoom in on the back at his second birthday balloon. So that's really cool, isn't it? Happy birthday to him. If you want, if you at home want the shirt, underworldpod.com for merch, for bonus episodes and ad-free stuff, patreon.com, session, world podcast.

You can also sign up right here on Spotify or on iTunes for fashion advice or anything else, the Underworld Podcast at gmail.com. Let's talk two-gun Cohen, which is just a sweet nickname. Two-gun works for anyone, right? You could be Two-gun Williams, two-gun golds.

It's just, it's pretty sick. Honestly, it's worth carrying two-gun, around legal or not just so you can get that nickname i mean i'm i'm going to go on a limb and say that two guns gold sounds a lot better than two guns williams that's pretty lame but my son does say that his name is willy whims so maybe that works better two guns willy whims i don't know that actually that sounds great you should call him that in the future make sure his like little fourth grade or four-year-old pre-k teachers know that's his name i will tell my son two guys we have we have social media for teachers now so uh i will let them know straight after this just dm let him now

legendary lore and rumors about Tugan. Some he even started himself. But Daniel S. Levy wrote the definitive biography of him. He kind of clears a lot of that up. It's the main source for this episode. He does a really good job of interweaving lots of historical stuff, too. I learned a lot about Western Canada and China pre-World War II. Our story begins where most stories do in Yelsev Thrad, Ukraine, in 1881, which I believe is now

known as Kropunvinsky, Ukraine. Yeah. Yeah, come on then. You got it right. I mean, that was pretty good. That was pretty good. Do you think so? We can, like, speed that bit up, right? We can speed it up, so she sounds like you're saying the words, words, right? I didn't do the accent. But, yeah, anyway, so that village, which I'm not going to pronounce again, is where pogroms against Jews kick off in the wake of the assassination of Tsar Alexander II by a Polish student that was part of a revolutionary group, who, of course, wasn't Jewish. Pogroms soon broke out all over the region, fed by rumors and lies, all manners of Russian society, joined. in with your requisite looting, murdering, fevered mobs, attacking these poor Jewish communities. The Cohen family lived in one such community nearby in what's now Poland.

I believe it then it was in the pale of the settlement, which is where Russia restricted its Jewish population to live in a bluffer zone. The Coens, much like the other Jews there, were tailors, hatmakers, shoemakers, small artisans. They have a son named Morris in 1887, and the violence continues sporadically and the father decides it's time to just get the hell out. So we fled to England, hoping to make it to the U.S. just like Fival. The kids still watch American Tale? Fucking love Fival, dude.

I mean, I looked it up. It did $85 million at the box office in 1986, which is no joke for it like a cartoon, you know? Yeah. I mean, I vaguely remember, was it like a chipmunk or a mouse or something? And he had a really cool thing. Social respect. And first he goes to America, and then he goes west. There was a sequel.

Right. And the sequel was awesome too. I think there might have even been a trilogy, but I don't remember the third. It's like the third godfather. No one talks about it. Mr. Cohen gets to England, London, to be precise, but he's got no money. So we can't go any further.

And he settles in the Jewish slums there, which were teeming with Russian and Polish Jews kind of fleeing the violence against their communities. The family and young Morris, they settle in the east end, St. George's, which I assume is where Alfie Salmons is from. Yeah, I think so. I think St. George's is like a parish. So I think it's I think we're more talking about like stepney and my island which is where all the hipsters live now So ironically now it's still full of bagel stores but actually they're made by sort of hipsters from Melbourne and Sydney Which is a that's the natural progression of breakfast foods eventually they're all just made by hipsters from from from from Australia At the time it had the highest birth rate and the highest death rate in the city this is in the 1890s

So yeah not a great place and from the descriptions it sounds a lot like the lower east sides were tenement days and the Bowery back in the day of the gangs in New York, just sort of really crowded misery, lots of crime, violence, and poverty. Morris grows up somewhat religious, but he's poor and he's mischievous like any kid in the slums. By the time he's in kindergarten, he's already hustling, and by nine, he gets into boxing. People just grew fast back then, you know? He's doing prize fights for money at that age, after a backer season beat an older boy in a street fight.

So he's hanging out with that crowd, you know, the underground boxing crowd, which is not the most reputable of people to hang out with. And soon he picks up the art of burglary and pickpocketing. Eventually he's caught and he's sent to a sort of reformatory school. And if you're thinking, this is exactly like the Sean Williams origin story, except he's not Jewish, you would be 100% right. Except Cohen doesn't then move to Berlin and get really into doing collusion jins at basement raves and wearing incredibly tight leather pants. Yeah, why though? Why not? The option just wasn't there at that time, but I think if it was, he probably would have gone year route as well, you know. All right. I like him. Yeah. He's in this special sort of religious

reformatory school for the Jewish street kids and he learns a lot of skills, a lot of outdoor stuff, agricultural stuff, building stuff. And he also gets into some trouble there here and there before graduating. At this point, he's not really sure what to do with himself, but his parents decide the best course of action is to send him to a two-decade old farming community in the Northwest territories in Canada, now known as Saskatchewan. Due to the agriculture. cultural training he had in the school. They're just like, yeah, you know, we don't really, we don't know how to raise you. We're going to send you to, I don't even know what Canada was like then.

But we're about this is not a flight either, right? You've got to get like a wagon and a ship and all kinds of stuff. I left that part out, but he took a ship across the Atlantic, I think, to Montreal, and then there's like a, like weeks train ride, that sort of situation. You know, this is like, I mean, Canada, can't even now in Northwest is not super developed. But back then, you know, not a lot. It's Frontiers Town, you know. It's still had the air of.

of pioneers in the new world. It was wild and underdeveloped and seen as a good place to send the troublesome and adventurous, which is what Cohen is, it was. It's a pretty empty, desolate place of small towns, homesteaders, you're real pioneer types. This is in the mid-1900s, like 1906. But there's great land for growing food, but it's also really hard. It's a tough life, long freezing winters. You're also dealing with like bears and wolves living in huts and cabins.

and it's wild, this 18-year-old kid from the streets of London ends up here just like that. But he really takes, Cohen really takes to the farm life. He soon befriends a cowboy in one of the farms he's working on, who notices he has this sort of city hustling knowledge. He decides he's going to teach him the cowboy way of hustling in terms of, like, dice, cars, pistols, all the fun stuff. Cohen becomes adept at all three.

He learns a variety of tricks and moves from this guy. And eventually, he lands a job as a carnival barker with a traveling circus. And the Carnies help him perfect the art of the con. He's learning all sorts of trade secrets from everyone. London thieves, cowboys, and now Carnies. It's the best education and crime a guy could ask for. Oh, man.

First of all, what's a Barker? Is that like a ringleader kind of guy? I think it's the guy who stands like out front and is like, come in, see the bearded lady and the wolfman and the wolf beard man. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like that sort of thing. Okay.

Kind of what we do. Like the guy who lores you in to the, like ringlems. You know, the guy who lures you into the carnival. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, he would do insanely well on social media. Can you imagine, like, inner city, London, farming back to the, back to the land kind of guy, circus cowboy magician? Yeah, great influencer. This guy would clean up.

Yeah. Speaking of influencers, those shades look fantastic on you. You should be a sunglasses influencer. Thank you so much. You're well. Oh, man. As the carnival barker, he also adopts the PT Barnum way of life. You know, flim flams, schemes, and the idea that a sucker is born and a sucker is born and a

born every minute. He hustles all the local yokels and rubs and games of craps and pickpockets them. He only does this for a short while though and then ends up in Winnipeg, a bustling town at the time, known as the Chicago of the north. It handles more grain than anywhere in the world and has a large immigrant population. It kind of feels like London to him filled with bars, pool halls, and crime. He gets involved in it all, including helping to run a brothel, but gets knocked and ends observing six months in jail before leaving for another prairie town, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. He's still only 22 years old and already lived quite a life. So Saskatoon, it has a Chinese

immigrant population there. They had come to Canada for the gold rush leaving San Francisco and sailing north in the mid-19th century. China at the time has 430 million people, almost all of whom are extremely poor and the country is very unstable. There's upheaval and there's warlords and it's extremely violent. Millions of Chinese people die in the Taiping rebellion from 1850 to 1864, where messianic figure leads an uprising against the Manchurians, an ethnic group from the north. The Manchu people who had driven down from northern China to take over and rule the southern areas like Canton after overthrowing the previous dynasty are seen as these barbarian-like outsiders by the Southerners. So many young men from the South, that are, you know, Cantonese,

they end up fleeing for places like Western Canada. When the gold rushes, ends, they need jobs, and many are brought to British Columbia to build the railroad. You had similar racism against them like you did in the U.S. There's also Chinese exclusion type acts aimed at preventing more Chinese people from coming to British Columbia, just like in the U.S. Yeah, that sounds like pretty rough times for the Chinese. I'm glad they're going to have it so good for the next hundred years. Oh, it gets, yeah, you know. So the Chinese there, they live on the fringe.

They're working in restaurants and doing laundry. I mean, you guys have seen Deadwood. You know what I'm talking about. They form their Chinat towns. They have their civic society tongs with the triad influence, all that. The triads before they become major organized crime groups are hell bent on overthrowing China's current ruling dynasty. The ones these guys had fled. The Manchirians ruling the South.

I think were they the Qing or did they overthrow the Qing? I think they overthrew the Qing, but that is slightly above my pay. Yeah. We'll get to the Chinese history aspects a little more in depth. We've done some big episodes on the triad history. So I'm not going to go through all that. But you guys know what they are. They're very massive organized crime gangs that are all over the world now.

But this China stuff, the reason I'm going into it is it's going to play a big part. And despite Sean constantly saying that our listeners want to hear me do in Asian accent, I refuse to do it. I'm not going to do it for this episode. So Sean, please just stop asking. You really have to. I am going to show you the DMs at some point. I'm getting thousands. It's all I get.

I don't get any messages for you. and friends or family now. It's just that. But yeah, these guys, they run a ton of gambling operations. One of the guys who ran some of the gambling pollers, the bigger ones, is named Moss Sam. This is like 1910, that area. Cohen becomes a regular there. He's playing poker for big pots, and he loves the gambling houses. He bonds with the Chinese men there who, like him, you know, they're outsiders far from home. They don't really have families there or anything like that.

He gambles, he robs. He even picks up speaking Cantonese, and he hangs out and eats with them. which is a big deal because most other Canadians treat them like crap they won't even associate with them one night he arrives at one of the gambling houses mid robbery when a guy has a gun pointed at massam Cohen's able to get close enough to the guy to knock him out and stop the robbery and after this he's basically a local legend in the Chinese community they take him in as one of their own and he really gets educated he's he you know they teach him who they hate that's what that's what getting educated by by immigrants means so these guys are all southern Chinese Cantonese and he's and they all hate the ruling Manchus from the north, which I've just talked about.

And the number one way to tell that you're getting in with a different race or ethnic or religious group of people, it's when they teach you what 97% similar group, they are super racist against and hate as well. That's a little piece of advice for you guys. Yeah, I can testify from that in New Zealand. Really terrible place. Isn't this what the Japanese exploited later on, like before or during the war, whatever you want to say, like the Manchurians and they use them to make the puppets,

Manchukuo and that kind of stuff. This is like the birth of the Yakuza, I think. I remember us doing an episode back like five years ago on how the Japanese like organized criminals did all that in Manchukuo. This is like all kind of interwoven, right? You know, I don't know exactly, but Manchur and candidate, right? It's like that sort of thing, someone propped up like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they definitely exploited the, and they also, of course, exploited the conflict between that we're going to get into between the communist and the nationalist in China. Yeah, famously Denzel Washington was a man-sharing. Yeah, it was an operative in the war. They also teach him how they're

working towards a revolution, fundraising for it in the West, which is not uncommon, right? Sort of like how you had Irish and New York fundraising for the IRA and all that. One of these revolutionaries is Dr. Sun Yuxan. Soon had previously tried to gather men from Hong Kong and Hawaii to overthrow the current rulers in Canton. Again, not to repeat myself too much, but Canton, Southern Area China near Hong Kong, Big manufacturing, agriculture, trade center, and they hate the northern Manchus who are ruling over them now. Cohen's new best friend Ma Sam is all about Soon, who is in exile right now trying to get the revolution started again. Yeah, the Sooner's sympathetic, but he's mostly focused on his pickpocket gang that he had started. Soon enough, though, the cops catch on to him and he gets sentenced to a year of hard labor.

Coincidentally, his buddy Ma Sam gets busted in a gambling raid. He's doing a year at the same time. they both reconnect when they get out. Meanwhile, soon, the revolutionary leader, he's torn Canada giving rousing speeches. And soon enough, the revolution does actually start in China, not because of soon, but he's able to take advantage of the situation. In 1912, he gets himself elected president

after the emperor abdicates his throne, and China becomes a republic. However, he soon steps down and allows a general to takeover. Chinese people, though, all over Canada celebrate the revolution. Ma takes Cohen around to introduce him to the, other community leaders who support the revolution and even get some membership in a tongue dedicated to the revolution and to soon. And look, I have a confession here I'm going to make. Sean, for you and for our audience, I thought this was going to be fairly simple, badass,

entertaining story about a swashbuckling gunrunner with a dope nickname based off this one book, simple, easy, fun stuff. Who doesn't love tales of international arms dealers and weapons traffickers? But things get very complicated. He's super entwined with the battles fought over China for the first half of the 20th century, the nationalist, the communists, back and forth, various warlords, this rebellion, that rebellion. I'm just not super well-versed in it and didn't really have time to dive super deep into Chinese history. And it's, you know, so much of this. So I'm going to try to cover it without, like, covering it, you know? Yeah, yeah, I'm a journalist and now that works. I mean, I'm having about my knowledge of

19th century China topped up on the show. I mean, I pretty much get all of my Chinese history from this podcast now. So I only know about organized crime. nothing else. What I'm trying to say is if you want the nuance is like read, read books on it. You guys read books. Yeah, read books. Yeah, read books. But also like arranging weapon shipments, it's not that exciting when it comes down to it. Most things in life, like most things in life, it's just logistics, you know, Excel spreadsheets and phone calls, but we didn't have time to prep another episode and sometimes you've got to just push through.

Also, we don't, we don't do spreadsheets, or plan anything. No, no, no. No, moving on, Cohen relocates to Edmonton, which is in oil boomtown, and does what all criminals end up doing, which is getting into real estate. He makes some money, but he always makes time for gambling, because you have to. Gambling rules. I have a parlay going right now. When Sean does his episode, I'll probably be looking at it on my phone. This episode is brought to you by Perfect Bistro Cat Food.

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They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with that. This should be tons of fun. Marvel television's Daredevil, Born Again, now streaming only on Disney Plus. He also, of course, gets involved with the local Chinese community. He advocates for them, and the Tonguey's in morphs into the Chinese nationalist party. Meanwhile, in China, that general who took over,

B, of course, turns authoritarian. He bans that nationalist party and soon is forced to flee to Japan. So soon starts planning another revolution. He needs Chinese expats to help him fight, so training camps are set up all over Canada. Cohen, who had received a little military training at reformatory school, he pitches in to help out.

He's also making inroads in Canadian political circles at the time. And his real estate stuff, it's going well, it's taking off. He returns to Lone for a little bit, a conquering hero, bearing gifts and money for his whole family. But in 1913, Canada starts going through recession. A lot of his business dries up, and he gets arrested a bunch for some minor scams and schemes and gambling. With Canada then entering a depression and World War I kicking off, Cohen joins the Canadian military and ends up a sergeant.

He's eventually sent to Belgium and he goes through the horrors of World War I trench warfare, which, you know, as they always do, sound deeply unpleasant. He eventually becomes a corporal helping to construct railways and ends up managing some of the Chinese laborers there since he's the only white guy who knows how to speak with them and treat them fair. After his time in the military, he returns to Edmonton, where he goes back to real estate, gambling, and getting arrested. He stays involved, though, with the Chinese Nationalist League and follows Sun Yat-San's movement closely.

Over time, he becomes a power broker among Chinese voters, leveraging his influence in the community. And as anti-Chinese sentiment grows, he takes on more of an advocacy role, speaking out on their behalf and pushing back against discrimination. China, meanwhile, is in complete chaos. They try to restore the emperor. This general dies.

That general dies. It's warlords and fiefdoms and chaos. Sun Yat-San is still trying to make his revolution happen, but suffering setbacks. In 1922, Cohen says, screw it. Canada is way too full of Canadians. You know, actually, I like Canadians, man. I got family there. Montreal rules.

Let's bridge of the divide. I don't know, man. This is podcasting. You've got to pick one over the other. You just got to choose. No, I don't know. I'm down with the Chinese. and the Canadians, dude.

You know? Anyway, Cohen goes to China seeking fortune and adventure, much like an influencer in 2025 who wants to make videos about skyscrapers and sort of laser light drone shows of dragons.

He ends up meeting soon in Shanghai where he's nursing his wounds and soon likes the cut of his jib, which is, you know, bruiser, cowboy, hustler, soldier. He appoints him as his bodyguard and this isn't like some celeb gig, right?

Soon is powerful. He is fanatical following of people, many who think he was sent to divine. rescue and revolutionize China. And on the flip side, there's also many, many powerful people who want him dead and are willing to do something about it. Generals, warlords, people like that, you know, people who pull triggers and can get

other people to pull triggers. Also, the communists are making inroads in China, setting up the Chinese Communist Party, cozing up to San who was gathering up allies and preparing to strike from Hong Kong. Cohen at that point is in the inner circle. Yeah, this is genuinely crazy. I had no idea about any of this. honestly this is like this is why you've been able to do this for so long without a moment running out of ideas i mean what when we started this show i had no clue how closely linked all the organized criminal

groups were to like all the biggest political movements of the recent modern history and it's like so much left out of the documentaries and the big books you know like it's crazy how this stuff has flown under the radar until us until we came up until we did it just change the game from our bedrooms Those allies that Soon has, which includes some other generals and other warlords, they end up taking over southern China, Canton province, and soon arrives triumphant in the city in 1923. By the way, I'm almost positive, like I said, I'm going to get some of this stuff wrong. So definitely look it up and let us know if I do, we'll correct it in the next episode.

So soon sets up shopping Canton, and so does Tugun. Yeah, Kenton, by the way, that's modern-day Guangzhou, Shenzhen, by the way. Canton, I think it's just the Latinized version or the one the British gave it. So it's like 130 mil people live there now. One of the world's great economic powerhouses, probably where half the stuff in our studios actually comes from as well. Yeah, massive, massive city. Shenzhen is the manufacturing city, right?

Yeah, definitely. The number one manufacturing. Yeah. Yeah. He starts training a bunch of bodyguards in boxing and shooting. Meanwhile, China is fractured, divided into fiefdoms ruled by various warlords. Sun Yat-San really only controls the city of Canton, though he's allied with some of the other warlords

and even that hold, though, is tenuous. He doesn't have much and has to hire some mercenaries who are always passing through, some of them former bandits, carousing their way through town armed. I sort of picture like, I don't know, you've ever been in like a chaotic, a regular war zone? There's always just like soldiers

or normal dress people passing through on the backs of pickups and stuff like that, holding rifles, and it just, it feels like things could pop off at any moment, even if everyone's on the same side. It's just, you know, the more chaotic the situation like in the Central African Republic or northern Syria back in the day, those dudes even on the same side can be a lot and dangerous. Miss it though, don't you?

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I do. Sun has no choice but to hire some of them. His soldiers fight, but they're undisciplined and unreliable, even with Cohen's training. The city is just anarchic. It's teaming with spies and assassins. Military executions are becoming common. So are attempts on Sunyotsen.

One day, Cohen takes a bullet to his left arm in one of them. He gets treated right away and recovers quickly, but the injury makes him think, what if he had been shot in his right arm instead? What if he couldn't fire his gun? So he starts training with his left hand, determined to be just as deadly with either. He begins carrying a second Smith and Weston 45, and that's when people start calling him two-gun Cohen. I mean, just when I thought this story couldn't get any better, it's got his own

baked-in montage scene, this is sick. Yeah, it is, it is, I mean, you could see him recovering, a picture of the 80s movie version, you know, where they play this sort of like a statue to the limit, ask Miami Vice music. Yeah. Yeah, no, not that, like the sadder ones where it's like him recovering in the hospital and they starts training, you know? Cool. With his left arm. Yeah, I mean, this is, this should be a movie. I think it is a movie, right? I think they made a movie that was loosely based on it. But it needs like a 10-part miniseries on Netflix. On Spotify. that we should be involved, or Spotify, if they started, that we should be involved with. And then after he starts training, Tugan does what anyone should do

when they're in a wild foreign chaotic land and they're immensely connected to the powerful types with a reputation as a badass. He parties and he parties hard. He drinks all the time. He carouses in fancy hotels. You like that word, by the way? Yeah, I was going to say there's two shouts for carouses.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's women, you know, the good life. He would slip into Hong Kong, which was the British occupied, I had then British occupied and had a serious party scene. And he was a big boy, remember, like 200 pounds. And apparently spent a lot of his money on food at the street stalls, which anyone who has been to Asia can tell you is very relatable.

He's also getting famous. Like he's making the news in Canada where the authorities are actually suspicious of him. Dude was many previous arrests. They level accusations that he's trafficking drugs for the Chinese. I mean, I assume got to be opium, right? But this is like the day of opium dens, which the old school ones, you know, which what I would. and give, you know. They just sound like great places to hang out. Lots of pillows, like mattresses

on the floor, just like a real lounge. You're really lounge up, like really having a good time. I've been to the sort of modern backpacker ones that were in Lao back in like the mid-2000s, but definitely wasn't the same. I don't even know if they're there anymore. For one, they were way too many loud 19-year-old Australian backpackers and British ones, so it kind of ruined the vibe. Oh, sorry we were in the vibe for you. I'm sure you were just like the intellectual, Mosy and around. I mean, I've done it in Myanmar with Chinese gangsters. Honestly, I think, I don't know, man. I think I'd rather go with the Aussies on that front. Yeah, no, you're right. I'm just giving it a hard time. They're the most fun. We love Australians. Where was I? Yeah, the best. I love the British too. Where was I? We love everyone.

Cohen's in China. Soon as having problems because he has to keep paying off his warload semi-ali. He's increasing taxes, pissing people off. The Soviets are sending their commie advisors. He's clashing with the West and British over money, trade, arms, embargoes, their lack of support. He does start to get government bureaucracy in order a little bit, but the whole situation is just super precarious. It's always teetering on the edge. The trade unions are getting up at E. The communists are asserting themselves. Soon is getting sicker, too.

He's old. And soon he dies in 1925. South China is rudderless, leaderless, and so is too gun. The nationalists who are known as the Guomintang or the GMD, I think what are we talking about Coleman Tong? Tim. It's the same thing, right? Komen Tang. Yeah.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. But different, everything in China seems to have like four names, you know, like the Western name, the Northern name, the Southern name. But yeah, the KMT or the GMD, where soon kind of came from and who Cohen worked with. By then they had an alliance with a communist. And question, Sean, do you think that alliance works out? I know this one. I know this one. I don't think it did, did it? No, it does not. It did not. It did not last long. There's just chaos all over. Cohen still has his high-level connections, though, but he kind of loses his footing. Meanwhile, the nationalists are stung to rally a bit. Though there's tension with the Soviet communist advisors, they had been sent to, you know, help them out. By 1926, the nationalists have 15 different armies. I guess I would assume more malicious than armies. Yeah. And are heading north to take on Beijing with 260,000 troops. And they call this the northern expedition.

Beijing at the time was controlled by a different government of different warlords. Are you confused? Because I am as well. Okay. So southern nationalist, allied with communist, fighting different northern warlords. Got it. The KMT has two emerging factions, though. The real Nationalists and the ones who side with the communist.

Cohen is working both sides, hustling. He ends up working for the Central Bank running security. Soon though, the Nationalists split off and head north, conquering Shanghai and Nanking, and even clashed with some British and American gunboats. The Nationalists then link up with the Green Gang, who are the most powerful criminal organization in China and probably deserve their own episode.

How powerful are they at that point? I think they had 15,000 members, I've seen some say they had 150,000 members, which is insane. They had come from a secret society of salt smugglers and boatmen working on China's rivers who became pirates, smugglers and organized criminals who dominate prostitution rackets, opium rackets, extortion gambling, the usual, all based at a Shanghai. And their boss basically ran the entire city. Oh, man.

They did not like the communist. Well, amazing subject. Yeah. Yeah, I just ordered a book on them, so hopefully we'll do an episode on them a little later down the line. Linking up with the Nationalists, they begin a purge of the communists. And it's a massacre all over, eventually leading to serious clashes between communists and nationalists in the South. So this is 1927, 1928. All of China is a mess. Hot take. Massive sizzling take. China in the 1920s is a mess.

Yeah, I feel like I'm repeating that a lot. But it's because it is. It is. Different regions have different governments. There's purges. The Soviets are getting kicked out. People are fleeing. labor movements are rising up and getting put down and peasants are getting killed. This general is over there, that general is over here. Chiang Kai Shek, who would eventually lead the nationalist, emerges, then loses power, then he gains it back. Things are so out of whack that some Western media even start reporting that Toogun is the real leader of China. Then there's a rumor he's been executed, and another he's leading the fight against the Soviets. But all of it is exaggerated.

Two guns is trying to figure it out like anyone else, basically aligning himself with whosoever star is rising in southern China. China and Canton. He soon gets involved in wheeling, dealing, procurement, all that fun stuff. Yeah. So just at this point to recap, so he's, he's like incredibly powerful, right? And whoever's trying to take China is kind of trying to hitch their horse to his wagon because he can provide the money and guns, right? Or is it sort of the other way round? Because like the idea that this migrant gangster is pulling the strings of what, like the largest civil war in human history is just insane. No, he's, yeah, he's not. He's not incredibly powerful. I mean, he's connected to powerful people and he has some capabilities. But it's more like he's in good with the powerful people.

They like him. He's got a skill set that they can use. Yeah, yeah. So he's aligning with different ones. But he's definitely not pulling the strings. He gets brought in sometimes to help serve as a, and you'll see that in the next 15, 20 years, to help serve as like a go-between, to help negotiate some stuff. And I think a lot of what it is too, that he plays up his role a lot too.

Right, right. That's what I mean by the legend and the lore. But he does do some insanely gnarly stuff, and he really is like in the inner circle of the most powerful people. Meanwhile, the communists are far from finished, especially with Stalin ordering the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party, to keep fighting and staging uprisons. At one point, they even seized control of Canton, where Cohen is,

and the city descends into chaos as they maraud through it, murdering and destroying. Then the nationalists retake it and the cycle repeats. It's basically just everyone massacring everyone else whenever they get the chance. And that's pretty much actually most of history, like prior to 1950 across the world. And then you get a nice little break

in Western Europe and North America for a bit. But yeah, brutal executions when the nationalist retake the city. It's in shambles. There's bodies all over the streets. Cohen finds a ton of evidence of Soviet backing and planning that initial takeover the city at the Russian consulate. And that's how 1927 ends in Canton.

Then, then, you know, after that, then there's, of course, the nationalists start with the infighting. Cohen's bank he's working out is destroyed. And, you know, he's kind of lost again. But eventually the government of southern China, the nationalist government, gets a proper foothold, even though it's more like a confederation of regional warlords. And this is when Cohen gets involved seriously with the arms trafficking or arms dealing. It's hard to tell, but the man, he moves, he moves weight. So Hong Kong, which Cohen has been going to, directly south of Canton, just across the water, has been a hotspot for weapons to move through for years.

It's where all the various warlords and generals get their supplies. Wrote the China Weekly Review at the time, quote, arm smuggling facilities in China have been so perfected that business is transacted in arms almost in the same convenient way as other commodities. Cohen starts working for one of these guys,

a general, and gives himself the nickname Mr. 5%. And almost overnight, he turns himself into an international arms dealer. You know, meanwhile, I can't even get a job in Andrews's Communications Department. You know, what can you do? Some people have all the luck.

Yeah, maybe you've missed a 3.5%. Cohen's making moves for a man in general Lee. Not just thousands of guns, but heavy weapons and patrol boats, which are desperately needed because that whole area in South China, the coast and the rivers, is plagued by pirates. There's a serious pirate problem, just 60 miles northeast of Hong Kong, and an infamous pirate stronghold called BSBS. Pirates would also pose as passengers on passenger ships, then hijack them and sail them to the pirate bay. They rob commercial ships for goods, they held people for ransoms, it was big business. Cohen arranges the sale of some of those patrol boats.

boats and claims he actively participates in putting a stop to the pirate's free run of the place. But the gravy train does not last long, as Chan Kai Shek decides to consolidate power and go after some of the more powerful military men ostensibly on his side, including Cohen's boss. So Tugan has no choice but to go work for a different warlord. He wasn't exactly a fan of the new guy. He didn't see him as someone who compared to Soon. Guy wasn't a true revolutionary, just a guy with a whole bunch of corrupt and greedy and violent men underneath him. So Cohen tries to avoid the guy during this tumultuous period. He established himself as a fixture of sorts.

He helps get missionaries out of trouble. He's helping Western firms with business ideas. He even helps countries like England handle issues with their citizens, all as he's helping move weapons through Hong Kong. And he establishes a rep as a guy who just gets things done. He does make some enemies, though, some of whom accuse him of being a Soviet sympathizer. One time, a drunken nationalist military officer and his American partner show up at his hotel room.

They attack him and accuse him of being a spy. Cohen promptly slaps the shit out of them and they don't bother them anymore. Things in China are still he's in the book. He slaps the shit. Yeah. I think my phrasing might be different than how it was described in the book. Things in China are just as hectic as ever. You've got rival warlords bickering at each other.

There is the internal national sort of fighting. The whole south of China is trying to rearm like crazy. Cohen is as busy as ever. He's getting Tommy guns from the States, machine guns from Denmark, anti-aircraft from Britain, planes from Italy, from Italy, rifle and ammunition from just all over the place. Eak, planes from Italy.

Be careful with those. Although, actually, I just thought, like, the world's first war plane was Italian. I think they dropped bombs on the Ethiopians. So, well done, Italy. Yeah, I mean, that would have been around the same time period, right? Yeah, they're the only European force to ever get beaten by an African force ever. And then they lost the war. Ethiopians, man.

And then they descended into turmoil, and then they did nothing. Well done. says an American Navy lieutenant in the 1930s quote the guy was a gunrunner when you say gunrunner that doesn't mean anything disrespectful after all the Chinese needed guns he was well-versed in ways to do things he was an ideal man for them so he's in Hong Kong he's at the best hotels he's dining and drinking with all the high officials he knew everything he knows everyone he knows what's happening who to talk to how to arrange it he's doing a million-dollar deals for rifles which according to inflation, it's just a ton of a lot more money now.

I don't know. What's our guess? I'm not going to look it up. 37 million? 24 million? Yeah, no bad. No bad. Yeah.

I'll go with that. He's helping out the South so much. He gets made an honorary brigadier general. But things are getting even uglier in China. The Soviets and communists are rising up at the countryside. They're not finished. And the Japanese are making moves on the north. Cohen is helping out as general, even with training, trying to get them everything they need.

So much so. the press in England starts comparing him to Lawrence of Arabia. He's also throwing big parties and banquets all in Hong Kong and entertaining the British, and I think American Navy sailors as well, who love him for it. Like, he shows up on their ships and just kind of like hangs out with them and gets drunk with them. He's kind of like a tertiary character, I think, in like a James Bond movie. Maybe he'd be like hanging at the casino or a guy in a Graham Green novel, but like living, living a life. He's also doing a lot of partying in Shanghai.

Set a friend he took under his wing, quote, it was a society of glitter and glamour. Suddenly, I was hobnobbing with cabinet ministers, highest government officials, and directors of banks. My invitation into this new circle started with a whirl of parties that took my breath away. The parties were either given or attended by Cohen and his close Chinese associates. Shanghai was apparently a gigantic party city in the 1930s. Tons of cabarets and casinos and nightclubs, 100,000 prostitutes, maybe a little bit of like a Babylon, Berlin thing going on because there's a whole lot of intrigue and everyone knows war is coming.

Changkajek is antagonizing everyone, but getting ready to take the fight to the communists, and he heads north with an army of 500,000 and forces them out. And they retreat in what's known as the long march, 6,000 miles across China's harsh terrain, 80,000 start, and when they finish, there's only 10,000 left, which, you know, should be the end of the CCP, right? Yeah, I mean, you would think so, but they bounce back. They are, have, and will bounce back. Sorry, that's an Alampauch of reference, I won't do anymore, I promise. The jurors sat in a dark room, hands resting on a Ouija board.

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your podcasts and remember stay safe then chank is check turns his focus south on some of the generals who hadn't pledged loyalty to his government who have been training stockpiling weapons and getting ready to battle with him cohen has been appointed a major general at this point this is like 1935 1936 but alas the big internal war isn't to be because chank is sheikh ends up bribing most of the other generals to join his side including the general that controls the air force who abruptly switched sides with the entire Air Force with him. The generals collapse and flee to Hong Kong. Cohen is once again out on his own, but in no time he aligns with yet another general.

China just has an endless supply. And then he's partying again in Britain-controlled Hong Kong. It's glamorous. Celebs, gambling, card games, gala's, throwing parties with caviar and champagne and famous illusionists who were a big thing then. He's also talking to intelligence agents from Britain, the U.S., etc., who are trying to figure out what the hell is going on in China. and Cohn is the guy with his ear to the ground.

Yeah, it's the magicians who swing it for me. That sounds amazing. I mean, Hong Kong's still pretty cool now. I mean, I don't know. I haven't been there since, what, 20, 21 or whatever it was, but it was pretty crazy. Yeah, I wish I'd have gone before it passed over, you know? Yeah. Would have been awesome.

I had some friends who were based there. But yeah, magicians back then must have been incredible, dude. I mean, you must have thought, really, they were like, some, even magicians now, you know? David Blaine does some street stuff. I'm like, blown away. Yeah, what's the sweet spot with magicians? because it's got to be like pre-internet where people figure out what you do, but like posts, we're going to burn you at the stake.

So there must be like a sweet spot in the middle somewhere. I think the 1920s was a pretty sweet spot or 1930s. Yeah, it's good. Like Houdini. That was like Houdini era, right? I assume I don't really know. Yeah, I guess so. Houdini could have been around in like 1820 or 1960.

I have no idea. It's all this end of me. I have no idea. Okay. So now, Chiang has pacified the South, but the communists are somehow back. And the Japanese are really on the most. move up north. Remember, this is 1936, so you can kind of see what's coming. Chang-Ka-shek then actually aligns with the communists because the Japanese pose a much

bigger threat. China with a super sort of fractious united front is preparing as a Chinese invade and kick off the Sino-Japanese War in the summer of 1937, which is kind of like the kickoff of World War II as well. Cohen's in Shanghai when the fighting starts and he slips out to Nanking. It's a bloodbath. Chinese planes even mistakenly bombed the international settlement, killing 1,800 people in one day. Shanghai becomes a decimated city quickly. There's widespread devastation. The Japanese just light it up and says

Cohen, quote, if China had as much arms as she has sympathy, the war would be over. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. I don't know a lot about this, but even at this stage of the allied nations, like, have a lot of sympathy for China over Imperial Japan, or did they just not care until it started to hit Europe all of this turmoil? I don't know. Like, I mean, it's hardly out there to say the war started in Manchuria because i think you just mentioned it like a lot people think it did but

i don't really know how europe and the u.s were viewing china at the time they think it was a big issue you know i've only uh gathered a lot of information on that from this book that i read um i think there was some sympathy but it wasn't at the forefront i think there was much more of a focus on europe which was really bubbling up at that point you know yeah so i think that was that was a great concern but yeah i'm sure there was some sympathy i also seem there probably wasn't a ton of interest in like the general public But again, that's an assumption that would just be, you know, probably seen us somewhere really far away. But definitely more, much more sympathetic to the Chinese.

I mean, I hope our viewers know this. Definitely much more sympathetic to Chinese at that point than the Japanese. Cohen makes it to Nanking. But, yeah, I mean, you know what happens there. The Japanese lay siege to it. And then the, can you say this word to not get demonetized? Or do you have to say something different? But, yeah, of Nanking.

200,000 killed, people roped together and sat on fire, thousands of sexual assaults. Yes, good, yeah. The nationalist retreat, the Japanese are advancing like crazy. Cohen slips out to Canton. He's helping shepherd journalists around. He's working as a fixer. He's trying to get the word out to the states and to the west. When the Japanese start bombing, he's doing that old school OSIN thing with British intelligence

where he's gathering tail fins and bombing fragments to study. He's also prepping Canton for the upcoming battle, setting up fortification. sandbags, machine gun outposts all over, all while trying to get them as many weapons as possible. His boss, though, who's, you know, one of these generals, thinks the Japanese war machine is just too powerful. And they all flee once again, along with the rest of Free China's government, to Chongqing. Chongqing? How do you say that? Yeah.

Chongqing? Isn't that Chongqing? Now? Could be. I don't know. I think that might be like the old version of it, and now it's like Chongqing. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

Yeah. The cities, they fall like dominoes, and the Japanese then move on to bomb the crap out of the next one. Cohen's in Hong Kong at this point, 1939. He's working the phones in all his contacts to get as much gasoline and as many weapons as possible to China for his people. The Japanese know who he is, and they're gunning for him. He's an honorary general at this point, and he bides his time in Hong Kong. Again, the drinking, the entertaining, playing poker. It's one of those wartime we might all die, so let's party situations.

and people are having a good time. Still under British control who the Japanese are not currently at war with. And Cohn is well liked and seen as a charming rogue with an unsavory past. So again, you know, the Casablanca vibes. Yeah, I mean, what movie bar would you most like to drinking? Because he can't find much better than Sam's, right?

Those suits and all the Moroccan stuff. I don't know, that's pretty damn cool. Moss Isley would have been cool back in the day, I guess. Back in the day? Is it set in like the 3,000? I mean, wanted to, yeah, that. I feel like the Paddy's Pub is pretty, from, Zoe Sunny is pretty pretty, pretty nice at this point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think of other really great movie bars, but... The bar from Cheers just always seemed pretty sad to me. I don't know, I didn't really get the vibe of the show. Well, the thing is that when you're there, everyone knows your name, so it's not actually sad. Great, but there's like five people in there, so. Family, friends who became family.

It does. Yeah, there's a lot of people drinking at like five o'clock. Yeah. I get off work on like a Monday, which is not the best environment, I would say. But sometimes you need that. But if you make it an every week thing, it's not so good. Where were you? Okay, right.

Soon enough. World War II. Yeah. World War II, full on. Cohen is running around Asian countries with big Chinese communities like Malaysia, the Philippines, trying to raise money to fight the Japanese. The Brits are meanwhile fortifying Hong Kong. The parting is also hitting overdrive.

This is late 1941. So, of course, the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor and start doing bombing runs right around then on Hong Kong. They overrun the initial British forces quickly, and they're trying to get the British to surrender, but they refuse. The city is a madhouse. Spies are being executed. Fifth columnists are rising up. British soldiers are running around. Indian soldiers are running around.

Cohen's boys are trying to take out the traders amongst them. Says Cohen, quote, they were in their element. They went around popping hand grenades through the trader's windows while they were at supper. There's shortages, there's looting. The British can barely keep on. They surrender on Christmas Day, and Cohen sits in his own. hotel room, the Hong Kong hotel, awaiting to be picked up his fate, you know, wondering if the Japanese would simply kill him or just torture him, and that's where we have the cult open.

The Japanese takeover Hong Kong. They occupy it. Looting and war crimes commence, torture, executions, interrogations. Cohen gets picked up and interrogated and surprisingly let go, and he kind of figures it's a setup. So he tells all his friends to kind of stay away because, you know, he knows the Japanese want to see who he's talking to. After a few weeks, all the foreigners, including coming to, are rounded up and put into interming camps.

Some of the British are just tortured and executed. And the camps are horrific conditions. There's mostly Brits there, some Americans, some Dutch. They're basically left to fend for themselves. The Japanese provide very little, almost nothing. Rumors spread. Some press reports that on direct orders from Adolf Hitler, the Japanese had executed Cohen.

He has some brutal interrogations by the Japanese secret police, held in basement cells for days. There's even mock executions involving samurai swords. Yeah, I mean, when terminally online, people say it's terrible these days. I mean, it really was quite a bit worse in 1940s, wasn't it? Dude, from like 1910 to 1950, the amount of people just like massacre. What's the total death toll from World War I War II? Like 45 million or something like this?

No, it's more. It's like 80 to 100 million if you include both them. And then there were all the sort of tertiary wars that were fought. And then after 45, all over the world, you know, all over the world. Yeah, never stopped, right? Right. You had like fascists or Nazi leftovers fighting communist. I mean, Europe, oh, God, what's that book called?

I think Continent of Darkness, something like that. It's about the post-World War II fighting, I mentioned on the show before, a post-World War II fighting like 1945 to like 1950 all over Europe. A continent in darkness or heart of, incredible book, but just like, yeah, just the brutality involved. So, yeah, in those camps, prisoners starve, some lose sick. 60 pounds, something like 90% of the people suffer from malnutrition disease. Cohen becomes known for watching over the women and the children in the camp,

trying to make sure they had enough food. And he's in his late 50s then. He's kind of weak, but he keeps people's spirits up with his optimism. You know, he tells stories. He's still entertaining. In September of 1943, he's involved in a prisoner exchange. Then he ends up having to sail all the way around the world before he ends up back in Canada, finally. He's received as a hero by the Chinese community and the Jewish community.

The press is all there. He briefs the Canadians with all the intel he can on the war. Later, he tries to get back to his old ways of anti-Japanese activity, but the Canadians and the British kind of tell him they had no use for him that he was considered too dangerous because of his criminal record. He meets a good woman in Montreal, falls in love and gets married, does some speaking tours, but he really can't get anything moving business-wise. Oh, man, other help him out.

Imagine it now. Straight shooting with two gun Cohen, sponsored by Squarespace. He would absolutely murder it. on the podcast circuit you know you get them on any of those business shows or any other show like come on most of those guys like oh yeah i i started a sale direct sales company and now i i wear my suits too tight and like but here's how you whatever i'm just saying that guy would be an actual interesting guest super stuff shocking where were we world war two right japan surrenders in nineteen forty five cohen's back in china in nineteen forty six just in time for the chinese civil

war, which Mao and the communist win, of course, first Zhang Karshek and the nationalist. Cohen's in and out. He kind of serves as a go-between at times. At one point later on, he actually refuses to take sides in China or is Taiwan because he says he has too many friends on either side. I think that's in the 50s. He eventually softens quite a bit on the CCP, though he's confident the nationalists are going to retake the mainland.

And then in 1954, this autobiography comes out and he gets a whole load of fame, some fame, I would say. He eventually passes away in 1970 in the UK And apparently there is a 1983 movie starring Kevin Costner Called The Gun Runner That's based on his life But I think I think we need a remake You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah I think podcasts are gonna do better than that Just saying I think yeah I think his story is You know there's some stuff a lot about us back and forth In his later days But we've kind of hit the limit here And I didn't want to go back and forth with it But just a fascinating, fascinating guy

And a fascinating life yeah like a real like a real adventurer type you know what i'm saying all the way back to like the canada days but yeah remember guys underworldpod dot com patreon dot com slash neural podcast uh let us know which one of our sunglasses you guys like more and again if you work for uh what did you name you said persol yeah percel but i mean you know dude as long as it's like square face round specs you know that's like that's look at look up look up the dita mike mcdaniels who's the coach of the uh the dolphins um ones that he was that he was that he was was wearing this, just incredible. And I was like, I want these. I looked them up, and they're

$900. Ouch. Okay. Which would be worth it. If you're, our advertiser, I'll tell people buy them. And then, um, moscott, dude, the old, the old, I've got a pair of mascots. They're incredible. Yeah, great. They lost forever. But also like a little out of my, little out of my price range. We can just keep going. This is what other podcasts are. We could just keep going for 10 minutes. Anyway, thank you guys for listening. Hope you enjoy this. Yeah, until next week. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars.

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