The Underworld Podcast - The Most Corrupt NYPD Detective & His Mafia Uncle w/Steve Fishman

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

Louis Sarcella might be one of the most corrupt NYPD detectives ever, though he was once heralded as a master at getting confessions on homicides. A slick dressing, tough talking cigar smoker who could bench 400 pounds, he got such a good reputation that he was invited on the Dr. Phil show. But while he was waging a war on the streets, his uncle, Nicky Black Grancio, was waging a mafia war as the third Colombo family civil war heated up and bodies started to drop. Both Nicky and Louis's luck would soon run out. We're joined by the host of The Burden, journalist Steve Fishman. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th, and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamava Theater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You in? Must be 21 to enter. January 2nd, 1992, South Brooklyn. Nikki Black's Toyota Land Cruiser has just been spotted by some guys who, like him, are in the Colombo Mafia, one of New York's five families. But unfortunately, things are not going well for Colombo family unity because a civil war, the third in the last 40 years, has broken out.

The Colombo wars have been some of the worst violence that's rock New York's five families in forever. How bad are they? Even a stone cold killer like Polly Goltieri says he only survived his second one by the quote, skin of his nuts. The Colombo's came to be when old man Prafachi's reign began after the original godfathers in New York were assassinated and Lucky Luciano organized the whole thing, the five families, all that. Profachi was the head of a major bootlegging gang, and he ruled things until the first internal Colombo war kicked off in the 1950s. Joseph Colombo, the namesake, eventually takes over before the second war kicks off in the mid-70s

that ends with Carmine Praseco taking over. Now, we're in the third war. This one kicking off in 1991 when Carmine is imprisoned and Vico Renna makes a move while Carmine is locked up and the family once again splits into rival factions and goes to work murdering each other. Before it's over, there'll be at least 12 dead and 18 missing in only two years. On this particular day, Greg Scarpa, nicknamed the Grim Reaper, is going what him and the fellas call hunting, looking for rival faction members to kill. Scarpa is no slouch. By the time he dies, they'll say he killed between 20 and 100 people. Allegedly, he also once in the 1950s

helped the FBI track down the bodies of three murdered civil rights workers by sticking a gun in the mouth of a KKK member. Basically, he's somebody you want on your side, and he's on the Carmine Presco side of the mafia war. Now, Nikki Black, he's been made a coppo, and he's backing his boy and sort of mentor, Vic Orana. Black and Scarpa used to be close, but friendships and organized crime families, they don't last. Neither does loyalty.

One guy Nikki Black is still close with, though, is his nephew, and the focus of this episode, Lewis Scarsela. Scarsella in the early 90s is a hot-shot NYPD detective, so revered as the type of guy who can get a murder confession no one else can, that he eventually appears on the Dr. Phil show. He's like something at a central.

casting. Jacked biceps, always smoking a cigar, well-dressed, good-looking, but also rough and tumble, the kind of guy the city needed in the 1990s. The guy makes cases. Except for that one time, his uncle Nikki was suspected of murdering a drug dealer that got his daughter hooked on heroin. Scarcelo was supposed to solve that murder, but it turns out he never really did. But back to the Grim Reaper and Nikki Black. Also joining Scarpa is his mentee, Larry Mazza. Like any old school mafia guy He was still with us and now free You can find Larry's book in stores

And he's always on interviews and podcasts All that sort of thing He's admitted to helping kill 25 people I think he took credit for firing the shots for four of them Here's how he describes what happens next Quote Greg had his rifle But he was having trouble with the security clip

I had the shotgun a 12-gauge Double-barreled riot control gun stolen from a police car in Lakewood, New Jersey Greg said let's get him So I opened my window, pulled out the shotgun. I was close enough I could have smacked him. I aimed right behind his ear. I saw his whole face fly off, including his nose, and hit the windshield.

It was chilling. Nikki Black is gone instantly dead. Scarsella eventually happens on the scene that night and he's furious. A couple of Carmine's guys are around and he tries to fight them. He doesn't get a sign this murder case though. He does continue to get a sign plenty of others. And he's going to become infamous for what happens. In dozens of those other murder cases, he did solve.

Kind of. This is the Underworld podcast. Welcome back to the Underwell podcast in audio experience where two journalists tell you a story about crime. Global crime. Generally, organized crime, nothing to do with serial killers or trailer park marriages going bad, cartels and mafias and guys from Corsica who wear $4,000 suits.

And guys from Albania who wear much cheaper track suits. I am one of your host, Danny Golds. I am usually joined by Sean Williams, who is in fact from England. That is true. But he is not here today. And I will explain why in a second. As always, bonus episodes are available for a low, low price at patreon.com

slash the underworld podcast. Or you can sign up on Spotify or iTunes. You know, we have all the social media. Follow us there, follow us here, maybe send us some free stuff, email us at the Underworld Podcast at gmail.com. Go to our merch site. I think it's underworld.com slash merch, M-E-R-C-H. Tell other podcasts you like that are much more popular to have us on as guests.

You know, we're all in this together. Today, Sean is not here because I am joined by a special guest Steve Fishman, a real old-school long-form writer who makes a habit of interviewing people who don't want to be interviewed. Steve has a new podcast out called The Burden, and it's about the most corrupt cop in NYPD history. Is he actually? I don't know. Who knows?

It's a hard thing to qualify or is it quantify, whatever it is. One thing I do know is that superlatives are good for getting downloads. Steve, thank you. Thank you so much today for joining us. Happy to be here, Danny. What can you tell us about detective, or I guess former detective, Louis Scarcella? Right. Retired detective Louis Scarcella,

who really the main character of the podcast that I've just spent a couple years working on the burden. And so I know a lot about, I know a lot about Louis. Go back to the 80s and 90s, even the 70s a little bit. And Detective Scarcella was kind of one of the most famous detectives of that era, that really high crime era in New York, actually in the country. And he was sometimes called the Prince of the City. He also had a superhero kind of nickname. He was called the Hulk by some of his fellow policeman. because he could like bench press 400 plus pounds. So he was known for solving the hardest cases,

getting the confessions no other detectives could get. And then fast forward, 25 years, and 21 people he helped convict have had their convictions overturned. So now he goes from the most famous to the most infamous detective. And one thing that's always really fascinated me about him has been his connection to the mob.

Very little known. I don't know if it's known at all. He had mob connections on both sides of his family. Frankie Yale on his father's side and then very important person in his life on his mother's side. His mother's brother is Nikki Black Grancio. So his nickname is Black or Blackie. After the color of his hair.

And Nikki was reached Capo. in the Colombo crime family and was a huge influence and very closely, emotionally connected to Detective Scarcella. Yeah, and you mentioned that, you know, Louis was born and raised in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, which for people who don't know, you know, that was like, I think it still is a pretty Italian enclave. You know, you're talking cops, firefighters, people who work for the city, things like that. And I think, you know, it was a pretty big mafia enclave as well back then.

Maybe he still is. I don't know. Yeah. So who was Nikki Black? Like what was his relationship like with Louis as well? And how did Nikki sort of, what was his involvement in the mafia? So Bensonhurst, like you say, it's civil service and mobsters. You know, you kind of had two roots.

And we're saying that in Scarcellus family, you had both. So his father's a cop, his brother's a cop. And his uncle, Nikki Black, Nikki Grantio, is a mobster. really from the beginning. He's a mobster. Becomes vice president of a local teamsters union, which is mob controlled. It's trucking companies that he's really running the hiring for. And so he has lots of influence in the community. Always has money and always very involved in the Colombo family.

And, you know, climbing the ladder in the Colombo family. Now, at the same time, he's a big figure in the future detection. of Scarcella's life. I mean, Louis tells this story about his uncle being behind the wheel and them driving around somewhere in Brooklyn and suddenly Louis at this point is like 12 years old and suddenly shots coming through the window, the windshield. And, you know, Nikki Black being a good wheelman, I guess does a screeching U-turn and escapes death at that point. But, you know, little Louis Scarcell is like breathless with excitement. He said, you know, Nikki was a man. He was just so impressed with Louis, with his uncle's, you know, very visceral connection to being a man in a very kind of

classic old world way, you know, guy who could handle himself, a guy wasn't afraid, a guy who, you know, could escape bullets. And this relationship kind of, you know, develops. It's, it's, it, Listen, in the burden, you know, you learn that Louis kind of respects his father. He adores his Uncle Nicky. So they really walk down a path together and we'll get into it in a little while, how their life's crisscross when Louis's a detective investigating a murder and Uncle Nicky is a suspect. What was Uncle Nicky, or I'm calling him Uncle Nicky, what was Nicky Black sort of rise? How did he come up in the Colombo family?

And what was the sort of situation going on? I mean, we're talking, what, the 70s? Yeah, I mean, Nikki may get involved even before that in the 60s and 70s, but he really kind of comes to power once Carmine Persico goes to prison. Now, Carmine Persico is the leader of the Colombo family, and he goes to prison and he passes the power to his brother. And then fairly quickly there develops a power. struggle, which results in the Colombo wars of the early 90s. By the way, the third time the

Colombo family is going to war. Just like a huge side note. I mean, Carmine Persico is still really running the organization from prison. And I happen to do a story and a podcast on Bernie Madoff, the great Ponzi schemer, you know, the most famous, the most successful Ponzi schemer probably in history. And he and Carmine Persico were in the same prison and became friends, and walked the track together. And I would love to have eavesdropped on that conversation. Anyhow, Nikki really rises under Vicarina,

who takes over the leadership of the family when Carmine's Persico, known as the snake, is in prison. He really is the guy who kind of stages a coup to really take over the family. and it's at that point that Nikki really rises and really becomes a powerful force under Vicarina, which becomes one faction in this war. And then there's another faction, which features Greg Scarpa, known as the Grim Reaper, because he was like a psychotic killer and his protege, Larry Mazza. Now, that's a lot of names to kind of keep straight, but I kind of want to get back to them at some point.

Yeah. But the point being in. in relation to your question, is that he really rises as this family, he being Nikki, it really rises as this family is coming apart. And so he becomes a real ally of this renegade faction under Vic Arena. And it's at that point with the war in full throttle. And really, as one of the guys told me, one of the guys on the other side, the loyalist to Carmine Persico, So, you know, they would go out every night and hunt for people on the other side. Nicking being one of the hunted and one of the hunters.

Wow. And this is, so you're talking about the 90s here, but we go back with the Colombo's in, you know, the 60s, 70s, 80s. I guess the 80s is when Giuliani went after them. 60s and 70s when, when Nikki Black was coming up, this is like the golden arrow almost of the five families in New York, right? I mean, the 70s, they were super powerful. 60s 2, he must have been sort of, you know, all over the map in those days. Yeah, he was, you know, and he was already like a huge feared force in the community, both because he had influence with jobs and, you know, because he was this guy who was already known as a, you know, a guy

willing to use violence, an enforcer. There's one story that actually Scarcellar told me about Nikki Black in a pool hall shoots a guy and there are 12 guys in the pool hall and not one of them actually saw the shooting it turns out. So Nikki Black walks free and you know it's that kind of like power and reputation and you know really almost like personal sway that really propels Nikki. You know he's like a charismatic. He's a force to be reckoned with. And, you know, And then also he's got the power base of the union, you know, where they're skimming all kinds of money. And this is, you're right, before the feds come in and they eventually, you know, take care of the teamsters. And eventually there's all kinds of indictments around the five families.

But that hasn't really started in the 70s. I guess it starts later on, as you mentioned, under Giuliani when he's U.S. attorney. But Grancio really gets into the mob when he's thriving. Now, here's just one side note to kind of, I think, set things up for later. So, Nikki's parents are Scarcella's grandparents. And Louis loves his grandparents. He's actually kind of partially raised by them. And Nikki, being their son, is somebody who's very close.

And one of the things that Scarcella always asks Nikki. Now, remember, he endorsed Nikki, but he says, why aren't you nicer to your parents? Why aren't you nice to my grandparents? And Nikki, according to Louis, responds, well, I know where this is headed. I can't be too close to them because in my line of work, things don't always end well. I'll just leave it there for the moment. Yeah, dark.

So this war kicks off, I think you said in the 90s, right? This rebel faction led by Vicarina versus Carmine Persico's faction. What role does Nikki Black play in this Colombo war? I guess the 90s-Colombos war. Yeah, well, that's kind of, from what I can tell. one of his real moments because he's established as a powerhouse. So that means he's an earner on one hand, but he's also a guy that Vicarina can really trust and depend on. So he rise to Capo at that moment. And he becomes a kind of organizing force around the deployment of, quote-unquote,

troops of people and a guy who's, you know, not afraid to take matters into his own hand. So he is a guy who's being, he's on the streets, he's out there hunting. He's got his nephew with him most of the time, a guy named Joe Tolino. They're kind of a duo in there. The jurors sat in a dark room, hands resting on a Ouija board. They weren't guessing. They were asking the victim who killed them.

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So he's got some kids and one of his kids gets hooked on drugs, heroin, right? And it happens that the dealer works for Nikki at the local trucking company. Nikki got him the job as a driver at this trucking company. And one day this guy whose name is Aritico shows up dead. Four Teflon-co-coed bullets in about two inches of snow, his body's found outside. And the person who tells me this is Louis Scarcella, Louis's a fairly new detective at that point, and he is assigned to investigate this murder. And from the way I'm telling this story, maybe you can guess who the prime suspect is.

It's his uncle. It's his uncle, Nikki, right? So Detective Scarcella is assigned to investigate his uncle, right? And Scarcella will become famous for getting those hard-to-get-get confessions. And he actually does go to Nikki and says, Uncle Nicky, you know, listen, his Aunt Mary, his ushers him in, come on in, come on in, Louis. You want a cappuccino. And Louis has a cappuccino.

And then he sits down with Nikki. And he says to Nicky, Uncle Nicky, so did you kill the guy? And Nikki says, I'll tell you this. He deserve to die. He deserved to die. And actually, Scarcell tells the story about, so Nikki, like at that point is united with Greg Scarpa. They end up on opposite sides in the war, but at that point, they're working together in the Colombo family. And Scarpa calls Nikki while Scarcella is there,

which I imagine was planned, and basically tells Nikki that he'd like to hire his nephew, meaning Scarpa would like to hire Scarcella to be a mafia cop, right? And Scarcella says to his uncle, what would that mean? And Nikki says, you know, getting a few papers here or there, giving us some information, nothing big. But according to Scarcella, he says, no, no, that's not for me. And, you know, Nikki doesn't push it. But this is kind of established, you know, what must it be like to investigate this guy who's already kind of been a conduit for this illicit offer? What's it like to investigate this guy who's also your uncle for murder? murder. Well, needless to say, Scarsella cannot crack the case. He basically knows Nikki did it. You know,

everybody knows Nikki did it because the guy Aritico had hooked Nikki's daughter on drugs. And Scarcella says, I said to him, well, Nikki did it. And he said, well, the FBI proved it. He said, but I couldn't find the evidence. I said, but Nikki's a murderer, right? And Scarsela. and this is in my podcast, we have tape of this in The Burden. He says, well, it's hard for me to call my uncle a murderer. And I say to him, why? And he says, all right, he's a murderer. You happy?

And I say to him, why is it so hard? He says, I don't know, but it just is. So he knows Nikki's a murderer. He knows that Nikki murdered this guy, but he can't find him. He can't find the quote-unquote proof that he did it. And one more thing to close that anecdote, which is, you know, the thing about Scarsela and about the mobs or the cops and the mobsters, you know, this is kind of in some ways something that you know,

but, you know, these guys have in some ways the similar ethos. You know, they both have an idea of justice. And Scarcellus kind of dovetails with his uncle Nikki. Like, did he deserve to die? this kid who hooked his, Nikki's daughter on drugs? Well, Scarcella sits down with me at a diner.

It's actually Nikki's favorite diner where Scarcella would go to have lunch with his uncle. And he sits me down and he says, well, what would you do if this guy, some guy, hooked your kid on drugs? And, you know, it's a question.

You think about, you know, I have kids, have a 15-year-old, a 20-year-old, and I took the question. seriously and I said, you know, I would have wanted to kill him, but not in my blood. And Scarcella says, I think I would have killed him and just turned myself in. And then he goes on to say, this is what we call a public service murder, term I had never heard, and it was a little chilling coming from a cop. But, you know, it made me think that Uncle Nikki, the mobster,

and Louis Scarcella, the cop, they really shared a viewpoint and important moments in their lives. Yeah, I mean, in Scarsella's defense, if I was tasked with investigating a murder that pointed to one of my family members, I'd probably try to throw the case too. Like, I love my uncles, you know, they did something, I'm going to hide evidence. You know, I'm not here to throw my family in prison. So I can't blame him for that one. I'm going to be honest. Well, the one I can't blame them for really is, you know, I don't know if you have kids, Danny, but you know, like you can imagine, you know, your somebody kind of hooks your brother on drugs, you know, and it really screws up your brother's life. In my case, hooks one of my kids, you know, like, what do you do? Like, you know, when you

imagine yourself a victim of crime, it's a much more emotional reaction or the relative of a victim much more emotional reaction than, you know, when somebody asks you to debate the death penalty. Oh, well, of course, you know, I'm against the death penalty because, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't do anything against recidivism. But, you know, on the other hand, like, somebody kills my kid, you know, to quote Kendrick, somebody's getting killed. That's the way you feel, anyhow. Yeah. You know, you mentioned Gregory Scarpa and we haven't got into him. so far, but I want to bring one thing up and then ask you more about Scarpa, but he's actually the guy, I don't know if you've seen the film Mississippi Burning. Oh, yeah. You know, Scarpa was

allegedly, according to Scarpa's ex-girlfriend, I think he was girlfriend at the time when this happened, but this was decades later that she testified to this. The FBI, I think three freedom riders in the 50s were murdered by the KKK, Mississippi, two Jewish guys and one black guy, they had gone down there to register voters, and the KKK killed them, and the FBI was having problem solving the case. And Scarpa at this time, I think, was already known for being a pretty prolific hitman. Apparently, the FBI, this is, I don't think this has been officially proven, but like I said, his ex-girlfriend testified about a decades later.

The FBI went to him and offered him money, I think $30,000 to go down in Mississippi and figure something out about the case. And Scarpa allegedly found a KKK guy, put a gun in his mouth, and got information out of him about where the bodies were located. And the FBI was able to find the body. So that's, you know, a story that allegedly happened. I've heard another story or there's another, there's other testimony that it's a different case involving a murder that Scarpa was actually tasked with handling by the FBI. But I did not know that he was linked up with Nikki Black and that they had gone. I guess they were allies and then enemies, which is typical for a mafia.

stories, but can you tell us a bit more about Greg Scarpa and then sort of what happened between Scarpa and Nikki Black? Yeah, I had heard that story too, by the way. I've never investigated it, so I can't vouch for its validity, but it's a good story. And, you know, it, what it, great story. What it brings up is this relationship between the FBI and Scarpa, because, let's just back up a say, I mean, Scarca is a feared killer, absolutely psychotic killer. And I spent some time for The Bird, interviewing this guy named Larry Maza, who was a, he starts out is from Bensonhurst, you know, like Scarpa, like Scarcella, like Nikki Black. And Larry Mazz is a bag boy at the local grocery store when Scarpa's wife, this beautiful 30-something woman, comes in and hits on this 17-year-old bag boy, Larry, Masa and she gets him to deliver groceries to her house and he comes there to her house and oh my god

there's like some wine out on the table and Linda Greg Scarper the the Grim Reaper's wife seduces the 17 year old back boy so now that's Larry Massa so now Larry and Linda have this affair. As, you know, listen, Larry told me this whole story. He said, you can imagine like a 17-year-old testosteroneized boy and a, you know, beautiful 30-something woman. It was, you know, it was all fireworks, you know, kind of insatiable. And at that point, Larry does not know who Linda's husband. And he just knows that Linda's husband is away a lot, right? And then one day Linda says, I want you to meet my husband. Mazza is. Larry Maz is absolutely freaked out, but, you know, Linda has persuaded. No, no, no, he's going to be good for you. He's very understanding. And he walks in and Larry watches him walk in and says he walks like a shark. You know, he's got sunglasses on and the, oh, the shirt on button. He said, this guy was the picture of a mobster. So, so now, Larry is in a love triangle with the grim reaper's wife.

right? And what happens is the Grim Reaper Scarpa eventually finds out. And he brings Larry into the club and sits him down in his office. Now, this is a club where by then Larry has seen Scarpa assassinate people. You know, he keeps a gun in his top drawer of his desk. And if a guy doesn't give the right answer. He just shoots him in the head. And then, you know, Larry's one of the guys who rolls him up in the rug and takes him out, put the rug in the trunk of the car, and then goes to the store and buys a new rug. So Larry's in that seat now and he's fearing for his life and Greg leans over and he says, I know. I know all about it. And it's okay. Just one thing. It can never get out beyond you and me and Linda, because that's against the rules and we'll all be killed. So now this affair is sanctioned. And it turns out that Scarpa has like another wife and another

girlfriend. So, you know, Larry's kind of helping him out with his marital duties, I guess. And it all kind of works out. And then Mazza becomes Scarpa's protege. So Larry starts telling me about Greg's desire to kill. He says he gets these plans to like, he's going to wipe out like an entire family. He's going to get wheeled in a wheelchair into a meeting. And, you know, a blanket on his lap and an AR-15 under the blanket. He's just going to take everybody out of it.

You know, they stop him from that. But this guy is like he will do anything. It's like he loves to kill. Now, at the same time, and this gets back. to the FBI tapping him supposedly to get involved with that murder of the civil rights workers. Scarpa is an informant for the FBI. For years he's an informant. He's a high level dependent on informant at the same time that he's a mafia assassin.

So that results in eventually a trial, an indictment of and trial for Scarpa's. handler, a guy named Lindel Vecchio, an FBI agent, who is accused of paving the way for Scarper to commit murders by doing things like taking the surveillance away or giving him information that allows him to evade surveillance when this kind of stuff is going on. Lindelvecchio is eventually acquitted, by the way, but Scarpa clearly is a guy who has worked very closely with the FBI. And this gets back to Nikki Black because during the Colombo wars, Larry Mazza and Greg Scarper are out hunting. This is what Larry says they did. Every night they went out hunting, hunting for members of the opposite faction. And one night they see Nikki Black sitting in his, I forget what it is, with some kind of

SUV. And they pull up like they've got to actually pull. least kind of light in the car so that Nikki Black thinks that they're cops, you know, because the cops are tailing everybody, the feds, the city, the state, and there are all kinds of cops off there. In the meantime, it seems that the surveillance is pulled off of Greg Scarpa so that he can approach Nikki Black's car. Scarpa has a shotgun. He hits the wrong button and all of the rounds, all of the bullets fall out of the shotgun. So it's up to Maza. Maza puts his gun like two inches away from the back of Nikki's head,

pulls the trigger, and as Mazzas says, I saw his nose hit the dashboard. And of course, Mazza brags to me. You know, this is a very famous hit in Mafia history. This is one of the ten greatest hits in mafia history. quite a piece of work in the life. And I actually looked it up online. There was some list where this was listed in the top 10 hits of all time. What I kind of love about this story is Dakota, because Mazas says, like, after the hit, we go to, he's there with his partner, Jimmy. I forget

Jimmy's last name, but they, Jimmy, and they go over to Jimmy's house, and they have a little whiskey and they sit down and they watch an episode of Seinfeld. It's Thursday night, you know, they never, Jimmy never misses an episode. Must see TV, man. Must see TV. And it's the one where Seinfeld steals the wry, you know, so it's like, ah, criminals to criminal.

And then they drive back past the scene. And by that time, Scarcella has heard about the murder and he's rushed it to the scene. And he's like so upset. And there's like a couple. cops there who're saying, they're saying, you know, that guy deserved what he got. You know, he was just a piece of crap. Scarcella actually goes to fight them. He goes to fight them.

This is the Hulk, by the way. He goes to fight them. He's held back. Fight doesn't happen. But Louis's exploding with emotion. And the whole scene is, you know, crazy. And Larry Massage just kind of drives on by. back to the wars.

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free wherever you listen to podcasts. Scarpa, and some of your listeners may know this, Scarpa has AIDS, right? And so there's one theory that because he has AIDS, he basically has a license to kill. He knows he's going to die, right? And you see pictures of him. You see photos of him like back in the day.

He's like this meaty, I don't know, 200-pound guy. and then you see him like 10 years later when he's got AIDS and he probably like two like a half the weight. He seemed shrunken, you know, his cheeks are deflated. He kind of looks like a corpse. But it was often said that he kind of felt like he had permission because he knew he was doomed to do what ever he wanted to do. And then, of course, he felt like he had the FBI's protection.

to do what he wanted to do, and it sure seemed like he did. So did they split Scarpa. You mentioned Scarpa and Nikki Black were once friends, allies. Did they split because simply they went in different directions for the different factions in the Colombo Wars? Yeah, that's why they split. I mean, there might have been some rivalry there. You know, they were both capos kind of climbing at the same time.

And, you know, they each had their loyalists and power base. But it was really Vic Arena, who kind of, crowns Nikki Black. So Nikki's got to be loyal to Vic. And then Scarpa has these long-time ties to Persico. So maybe that was preordained. I'm not so sure about that history, but it's pretty clear that they were working together at one point, working together enough for Scarpa to call Nikki Black to see if they could reel in his nephew as a mafia cop. And then, you know, this deep split between them. And, you know, Scarpa is actually obviously going out to kill him. You know, listen, it's the mob.

You know, loyalties shift with the wind. And, you know, if you're on the wrong side of that divide, you better duck. Because obviously, these guys who are once friends or allies are now killing each other. I mean, there's, I think the war lasts for two years, 12 people dead, 18 people missing. You got to assume we're dead. So that's like 30 people. And then there's some bystanders. get killed.

You know, it's a whole big thing in public because this is going on for years, you know, and, you know, these guys who are part of it are like living in safe houses and moving from house to house. I mean, it's kind of mayhem in Brooklyn. Yeah, and it's just one of the five families, too. You can only imagine what it was like when one family went to war over another. Yeah. You mentioned that that murder eventually gets solved, the one that of the heroin dealer or the

FBI implicates Nikki Black. I assume after he was killed. How does that, like what happens there? Well, interestingly, you know, the only tie that I could find, because the FBI doesn't indict him or anything, you know, even posthumously, they don't come out with a statement. But it's in Greg Scarpa's reports to the FBI, which are now public information to some extent. It's actually Scarpa who tells them that Nikki Black killed Aritico. So it's like an incredibly small world. And, you know, so now you got scarlet telling on Nikki Black, though, you know, Nikki Black is killed by that time.

I mean, another coincidence. I mean, Brooklyn, like, when you get into these guys, seems like such a small place because Nikki Black and the dead guy, Iritico, are buried at the same cemetery. They're both in Greenwood Heights in Brooklyn in a kind of beautiful old cemetery there. Yeah, those families were very connected. Actually, Nikki Black knew New Aritico as a kid. You know, both from Benson Harris, those families are really intertwined.

Yeah, I mean, it's a crazy, it's a pretty crazy story. Scarcella's story too, which I think if you guys want to hear more about, which is just great, like, you know, 80s, 90s, New York, corrupt NYPD stuff. stuff. It's really, and it's also just a fascinating story in general. Definitely listen to the burden, which you can find, I think, anywhere you listen to podcast. Is there anything else you want to, you want to add about this story with Nikki Black and Scarcella and Scarpa? No, I guess the only thing I'd kind of leave listeners with is, you know, and this is kind of my feeling, but it was amazing to me and, you know, how closely, emotionally tied. were this first-grade detective and this capo in a crime family.

And it's not just that they understood each other, but in some ways their rules, their sense of justice, their sense of how you handle matters, and how you deal with people who are dangerous, and how you protect your family, all those things, you know, kind of bring people together on the side of the cops and on the side of the mob. So I think it's maybe a cliche that there's not too much difference

between a criminal and a cop. And I don't think that's largely true. But in this case, I really felt this kind of emotional connection that really blurred the lines between Scarsela's dedication to law enforcement and his devotion to this guy who was living outside the law. And, you know, I will say that, listen, in the burden, you know, one of the things, we take a really deep, Scarcella had not been speaking to the press for at least 10 years. And so we got him to talk to us.

That's a whole other story. I had to kind of pass a series of tests in a Russian bathhouse and jumping into the freezing Atlantic. And then Scarcella finally does sit down with us for a long time and really opens up in a way that, frankly, he should never have. done. But one of the things that we try to do is, you know, Scarcell is not like a guy who set out to do bad, who set out to do evil. I mean, I do think that he operated by his own rules to a large extent. But, you know, what we try to do is go back and get under his skin and understand him and show who he was. And to some extent, give his point of view on this. So, you know, life's complicated. cops aren't all good and bad

and guys who go to jail aren't always all good and bad but they interact in complicated ways and I'd say in the burden we really take the trouble to kind of bring you into these in an intimate way into these worlds so the burden

wherever you get your podcast yeah and if you guys want more we actually did an interview together on our Patreon patreon patreon.com slash the underworld podcast. And you guys can sign up on Spotify or iTunes. And Steve, just want to thank you again for taking the time to talk with me and to lay all this stuff out. And yeah, until next time, guys.

Thanks, Danny. Great to talk.