The Underworld Podcast - The Time the Mexican Army Ruined My Cartel Sleepover

Episode Date: March 7, 2023

Even the best laid plans of mice and men don't stand a chance when the federales get involved. In this episode, Danny recounts the time he linked up with a prominent member of the Sinaloa Cartel's Los Chapitos (El Chapo's kids) faction operating in the Mexican state of Sonora. As the head of the armed faction and a group called The Delta, El Durango was in the midst of a brutal war fighting the Caborca Cartel led by none other than Rafael Caro Quintero of Narcos Mexico fame, otherwise known as El Narco De Los Narcos. El Durango was keen on having visitors with video cameras over to his compound. Some other folks in Mexico, on the other hand, were not. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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So at this point, just like this is worth the risk, right? We're going to go for it. Everything is booked. All the obstacles are out of the way. We're set. I've got a cameraman coming from Istanbul. I've got tickets for me and my partner source type guy up here. I've got the hotel on the border,

no gales for one night. And all of this is on my credit card. Like I'm fronting the entire thing. I'm that confident at this point that this is going to be huge. Not just the video that we do, like the short doc, but like an article I'm going to write. And I think we were already doing the podcast for like eight months and I'm thinking the episode I make about this,

it's going to blow this thing up. Underworld is going to be huge. You know, I'm already envisioning the interview. view on like Rogan and all that. When it comes to the trip itself, I've pretty much resigned myself with the fact that we're going to be spending a few days straight, like overnights, at this like cartel, Sicario chiefs compound. That's basically the headquarters for these guys that are in the middle of this war against this famous narco. But that's the only option. We have to completely trust ourselves over to this guy who we've never actually met face to face, who is a real deal

cartel killer that commands dozens, if not hundreds of men. And at this point, like, I'm, okay with that. Well, as much as I can be that, you know, just gets me to the level of saying yes, you know, do I feel great about it? No, but I'm excited. And so it's, I think, five days, maybe a week before we're about to leave. And this has been months, months of building up and, like, making sure everything was cool and figuring it all out. And I wake up that morning, and I wake up that morning, and I get a text. And I don't remember exactly, it was either came in super late at night

or it came in really early in the morning. I think actually early in the morning. And that's just like, you know, no good text ever comes like that on like a weeknight. But it's really unusual because my guy who I'm calling, I'll call him John. He doesn't really do that sort of thing.

And it's just like, call me, I think. That's it. Again, very unusual. And I knew. Like, I just knew what it was. going to be in what happens. Like even, you know, the best laid plans of mice and men do not stand a goddamn chance when the Mexican Federale is getting involved. Welcome back. This is the underworld podcast where every week two journalists who have worked all over the world and should have taken

the other side of the fork in the road regale you with stories of international criminal exploits from some of our reporting and our research and all that and all the fun things that come with it. I am one of your host, Danny Gold, and I am here with your other host, Sean Williams, who is in the midst of some wild journalistic journey right now that could be the subject of a book, but I don't know if he can actually talk about it. Can you? Can you at this point?

Ah, I so badly want to talk about it because it's absolutely insane. What can I say? I mean, I actually can't say much about it because the guy who is the central character doesn't know that I know this explosive information about him. but so like I'm kind of stringing him along for a bit he's not a good guy so don't worry about it but

let's just say I've got a spreadsheet open it's got 134 names on it I'm expecting that to like double in the next couple days I'm kind of like that always sunny guy in the meme with the white ball and like a million different arrows pointing in places it's wild it's wild but yeah it's gonna probably drop in like he's gonna figure out soon so all shit is gonna hit the fan in like a week or two but until then I better keep my

better keep a lid Yeah, you guys can't see it, but I'm like smiling from ear to ear. And I'm sorry that we're just like teasing that. But it's going to be funny. So stay tuned. I guess we'll do an episode on it eventually, hopefully relatively soon. Oh, for sure. It's going to make me look like an idiot.

No, no. Anyway, as always, patreon.com slash the underworld podcast to support us financially and get bonus episodes with interviews. And, you know, if we do some shorter episodes too, there's also merch on our website at underworldpod.com, I think, slash merch. M-E-R-C-H, you know, the don't Instagram your crimes t-shirts and stickers and hoodies and all that sort of stuff. You can also email us at the underworld podcast at g-mail.com.

For any reason, story ideas, if you want to advertise with us, you know, do the podcast stuff, rate us, watch the YouTube channel, all that nonsense. But actually, seriously, do it because I just incorporated and set up a business account. And, like, I don't know how to do this stuff, man. I'm a creative type, you know? It's really annoying. It was a nightmare,

and I need to make it worthwhile, so hit us with some funds. And you can also subscribe with one click for bonuses on Apple, so do that. Yeah, didn't you get sleeve tests specifically so you could avoid this kind of corporate nonsense? No, I just can't do it, man.

It's really hard. Someone else should be doing it for us, but that's not, we're not at that level yet. But yeah. So this episode, if you can't tell because of our rambling already, it's going to be a little different.

It's definitely going to include some good information about the Caborka cartel, you know, the battle for Sonora, Mexico and all that. But it's going to be told through the prism of this, this opportunity I had, wild opportunity. This thing that was supposed to happen involving me going and making a documentary about the head of an armed wing of the Sinaloa cartel of Los Chapitos who invited me, well, I mean, mostly he invited my connection, who we will get to, but me as well, like, you know, we FaceTime

and he was cool with it and liked my website, but we're going to spend a few days with him and get unprecedented access to the cartels, and it didn't happen. You know, a lesser podcast, would have leveraged that for a square square set, but we're above. We just didn't get the opportunity. We didn't get the opportunity to. But yeah. Come get us. You know, this wasn't like some bunch of nobodies in Kulia Khan or the same fentanyl lab that the three fixers everyone uses, brings every journal to.

It wasn't like no name guys wearing bala clobas in a field. No disrespect to the journals who do that. You know, I've done that sort of stuff. And I, some disrespect. No, no, because I do that too. I would do it as well. But I want to make the point that this was actually different. It was real deal.

A guy with a name, a high level guy with the name who wasn't just going to be like, oh, a commander. He was going to show his face. Unprecedented access to his life. Not in a field, not in some lab, but like in his home, his compound, with his men. You know, the stuff he was already showing us, the access he was giving us to his life just on FaceTime alone was just blowing my mind. But we're going to get to all that. The point is, if you don't like when we tell stories about ourselves or like, any of this self-referential journalism stuff,

insidery sort of things about the process and setting up and reporting trips, this is not the episode for you. Like, go back and listen to last week's episode with Sean reporting live from Nepal. That was incredible. Because you're only going to hate this, and I just can't,

I can't listen to any more whining comments about free content we make at a loss. So, uh, anyway. But yeah. Yeah, I think Naval Gasey, I think is the term. But yeah, I've been kind of busy. So this was a kind of quick episode that we wanted to get done.

So here we go. You know, I got clearance from my guy John to tell it, the guy I'm calling John. And I think I've been a little hesitant to tell this story because a lot of journalists would kind of frown on telling it.

It shows, you know, the process and some kind of real risk-taking that could reflect negatively on them. But the industry is in general, like soul full of shit with stuff like that that I just, I don't really care. Like one time, I was told I didn't get a job offer.

They flew me out to London for an interview because I mentioned sneaking into Syria in the interview, which is like one, everyone snuck into Syria, you couldn't go legally. And two, I know people from that network and other prestigious networks, they always claim to be against risk, but they push it further than anyone else pushing it. And they go into places like, what was like people get hurt because of stuff that like some of these bigger, we don't do risk stuff people have done.

People get hurt. But that is a story for another day. Yeah, I mean, like the freelance thing too, right, like magazines, TV stations, they claim they don't want inexperienced folks or anyone who, like not with the station or the mag to go into war zones. I get that though. You know, if it's good enough, they don't mind taking it either. And they don't pay insurance or accommodation or anything else.

I mean, it's a constant argument. But I mean, I get not experienced, but also, you know, don't, don't play that. Whatever. Yeah. Keep going. Anyway, it's probably good. I didn't get the job because that entire outlater division, they were starting collapsed like six months later and everyone got laid off, screwed over a ton of my friends.

So maybe it was ill-advised. You know, I'm not going to name any names. but if you look into American networks who try to create a new foreign news division right before the pandemic, you'll probably figure it out. Is that a British friend that we both know? Yes. Someone that got pulled over to them. Yeah, okay. I know what you're saying.

A couple of other people too got screwed over by them. But this story starts with me getting a cryptic message on social media, asking if I wanted to make a documentary in Mexico on some cartel stuff. Now, it's not that abnormal, like when you're in the position that me and Sean are in. Not the podcast in general, but that helps,

but also just the reporting that we've done to get these sort of messages when you do the kind of work that we do. Like I've had people reach out to me with all sorts of wild offers. I'm sure Sean has to. 99% of the time, it's all nonsense and they're full of shit.

And I'm generally pretty unlikely to get involved unless it really sounds legit. And even then, you've got to be skeptical as hell because everyone has their agenda, their hustle. I've had war embed type stuff, come spend time with us, you know, that sort of stuff.

criminal organizations. Some actually may be in the pipeline, but we'll see what happens with that. Yeah, actually, that story that I just mentioned, that kind of started off a little bit like that, which, uh, I don't know, alarm bells should have been ringing, but I want to give him massive big up to the Indian guy as well, who keeps messaging us on social, saying he wants to be part of our underworld. That is like, that is proper rise and grind. Yeah. This guy, this guy messages me and we start talking.

And he tells me what he has going on. And keep in mind, I don't know who this guy is yet. I don't even have a name. But the summary is he's gotten really involved in like the Mexican narco news stuff. You know, there's tons of websites and social media stuff out there tracking this stuff every day, reporting it on social media, just really staying up to the date on everything, all the minutia, all the narco news websites and reports. There's a ton that goes out.

People track like the TikToks and the Instagrams and Twitter and the Facebook and all that. And this guy, you know, he's Hispanic. He knows the language and the slang really well. He's a military vet. He has things kind of figured out. He's capable, he's smart, you know, all that, and he knows his stuff. What had happened is, through the course of a few months, he had basically befriended the guy, or this guy, who was a high-level cartel operative,

like a head Sicario and Los Chapitos, which is, you know, the faction of Sinolawa formed by Choppos' kids when Chappo got arrested and kind of split off. And this guy controlled like dozens, if not hundreds of men, and was in the midst of fighting this war versus a very prominent, Marco. And the guy was what you would call a plaza boss. He was their head guy in Sonora. He ran the armed wing responsible for an entire Mexican state, like not a small fry, very powerful. And just also, you know, like Sicario, people might think it still means like assassin or him in, but basically it's like soldier these days, right? These guys are our armies.

They're kidded out. They have the camo. They're fighting pitched battles. They're not just like pulling up to somebody on a motorbike most of the time and then like letting off a few shots. like they're soldiers. So this guy who I'm calling John, he had befriended this guy, I think through social media, to the point where they were FaceTiming every week and he was showing him stuff,

he should not have been showing him. And I guess if you're wondering what the deal was with his obsec, this guy, this Mexican archo and him not caring about it, like so, so was I. My eventual conclusion was that he felt untouchable. I think something we eventually came around on, maybe he actually told me this himself

was that since he wasn't really a trend, He didn't move weight into the U.S. He was only a soldier who fought the battles in Mexico. The U.S. hadn't charged him or wasn't interested in him. So he wasn't super concerned, but who knows if that's true. It's like actually shocking how many sources reach out just because they kind of want a grandstand and show off about stuff. I mean, I'm all for it. Like, I love it.

No, I don't think, I don't think keep doing it, guys. I don't think that's necessarily true. Like a lot. I think these days, there's a lot less of that because people can show stuff for themselves. but I think at some point when you get like a reputation for doing these stories well, they want, people want to maybe tell their story. People have interesting things to say sometimes. And like maybe they don't feel like they're getting the recognition they deserve.

Or they just like what we're doing and want to be a part of it. I mean, that happened advice a lot. People like have seen the stuff that we had done and they were into it. I think that's a, and they're smart. You know, there are people who are very smart and very capable of doing that and they know the risk and they know how to do that without getting, themselves in further trouble. So I, you know, don't, uh, I'm, you know, I'm all about it. Holler at me. So, you know, my source, who I'm calling John, he befriends this guy. And eventually

the guy, the cartel guy offers him to come hang out and do an interview to film, to basically make like a short documentary about him and his life. And John, having never done this sort of thing, he reached out to me. And I think we had talked before about some stuff or he knew the podcast, knew the previous work I had done. So, yeah, I mean, that was it. That's just how it came about. But I didn't know this guy. You know, I didn't even know his real name. Um, and I'm not just going to like jump on something with someone I don't know. Like, I want to suss him out too, right? So it turns out he was in the tri-state area and we make a plan to meet at a bar in Brooklyn and just like, you know, get a bite, feel each other out. You know, I had to make sure this guy wasn't trying to set me up,

wasn't too crazy, you know, had a good head on his shoulders and was for real. And we just did that. And we did. And the guy was, was legit. You know, his background kind of checked out. And we made a plan to meet later and face time with his plaza boss in a week or two. So some background on the boss himself. His name is El Durango, and he is or was a top-level Sicario operating under Los Chapitos, which is the sort of cartel that's been formed by El Chapo's sons. Their faction of Sinolaoa, if you guys know Sinolaoa, we've talked about them a bunch.

El Chapo's cartel along with El Mayo, they were the two leaders. Once Chapo was locked up for good. It kind of split a bit, and one faction has Los Chapitos, which are Chapo's sons, led by them. The other faction is led by El Mayo. Who everyone knows Chapo, El Mayo, though, is, you know, was, some people say even higher than El Chapo, smart, plays the shadows, never been arrested. One of the OGs has been doing it for decades, so a very powerful and sharp guy. But this guy was operating under Los Chapitos. So he headed up a group called Hente Nueva, Hente Nueva, Hente Nueva, which I'd been.

Inueva. Had been a new people. Yeah, a special forces type unit, apparently started decades earlier under Chapo. That was meant to fight the Juarez's cartel. So he was the head of Delta Group, too, which again, you know, I think there were meant to be some like deadly tactical force of killers in Sonora. I don't know if Delta Group is a part of Henta Inueva. I don't know if there are a special union in them or if the name is interchangeable. You know, I'm not really tapped into all the minutia of the cartel groups and the fighting.

It's not really my thing, but this guy was the boss of it. and a boss in general. He was the boss of the armed wing of this faction the Sinaloa Cartel Los Chapitos in Sonora, which is one of the largest Mexican states and also borders the southwestern US so it's really got prime drug trafficking routes.

So, you know, I say all that to say, this guy wasn't, he wasn't a joke. He wasn't like a little guy. Like he could make these kind of calls, you know? He was high up. There's an article on the website Infobey, which terrible name, but good articles. And actually, Borderland B2 has some stuff on him.

And it was about how he, This is from like a few months before we started talking, how he was showing up to like, you know, pediatric clinics or pediatric wards and giving kids money or giving the parents money for chemo treatment for kids, that sort of thing. Here's a quote from it. Thank you very much to Mr. Durango for supporting my girl, Raina,

with the amount of $1,000 for the medical supplies she needs for her chemo at the pediatric hospital. God fill her with blessings, says the little girl's mother who also appears in the video and adds, thank you very much, blessings. Classic narco move, learn from the great. Yeah, I mean, I think he was, he was concerned with his legacy at that point,

which is probably another reason that he was talking to. Yeah, to us. Like I said, he was on insta bit. He was sharing stuff. From what my guy was saying, you know,

in terms of what his motivation was for wanting to do this, it seemed like he knew his time was near or something along those lines. Like he wanted a change maybe. He was like showing academic books. He was studying and talking philosophy. It seemed like maybe he wanted out of life. Like I think he was in his late 30s and most of the guys, like the real deal shooters,

the Sicario's, they don't live that long. You know, if you're in your late 30s, you're an elder statesman. And he just seemed like he had had enough of that life and wanted to leave a legacy of sorts. Or maybe he just wanted some attention and was up high enough that he could make those calls. You know, I remember telling John, I was like, keep asking him, like, are you 100% sure your bosses are okay with this? Because I mean, like, even a cartel Sicario, I don't want some video of him getting tortured and murder to come out because he gave me like the MTV Cribbs version of narcos, you know?

I mean, what's the opposite of don't Instagram your crimes? Like, don't do Instagram your charities? I don't know. But yeah, like, I'm loving the fact that we get listened to by DEA agents and narco traffickers. Like, is there actually a bit of vindication than that other than money, of course? I don't know if D, I definitely had like, like, cops reach out to me. We've had some like special agents and stuff like this, right?

Yeah, definitely, yeah. So I don't know if D.A agents would would take it. too kindly, especially your last, your last Nepal episode, but maybe, who knows? Ministry of Secrets is the first of the cover-up series exploring one of the great unsolved mysteries of the Cold War. At its heart is a missing person, a wartime hero and an international celebrity. That celebrity was Lionel Crabb, so famous he was the subject of a major movie, and then one day he went missing. What had happened? It turns out that Crabb's disappearance was just the starting point. What happened next involves the royal family, MI6, the CIA, and the KGB. There's conspiracies and lies.

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So El Durango and Los Chapitos, they're in the midst of a war. They were back then, I think they still are, with the Caborka cartel, which is headed by Rafael Caracintharo, you know, Narco of Narcos, great nickname. Key is the killer of DEA agent Ki-Kamarena, which if you've seen Narcos Mexico, I mean, you know, this guy, one of the OG cartel bosses who did decades in prison before being released on a technicality, I think, 10 years ago. So let's get into Los Chapitos and Caro Cantero, as they were the ones fighting,

and I still think are fighting that war over the drug trafficking routes in Sonora into Arizona. Caro Cantero is originally born in Sinaloa, like every other drug trafficker. He's born in 1952. He starts out in the drug trade as a marijuana grower, where he proved to be very skilled. And in the 1970s, he teams up with Miguel, Angel, Felix, Gaiardo,

to form the Guadalajara cartel. The Guadalajara cartel was like the first nationwide cartel formed in Mexico, and it's a predecessor to all the cartels that we have seen coming after. They were some of the originate. All the leaders of the cartels, the big names that everyone knows, they were working under the umbrella of the Guadalajara cartel, just to name a few of the notable ones, you know, the Ariano Felix brothers.

They'd go on to form the Tijuana Cartel, Amidou Carrillo Fuentes, aka the Lord of the Skies, who would go on to form the Juarez Cartel, El Chappo, who goes on to Forms, and Lolawa. I think this is all, like the first two seasons of Narcos Mexico,

if you've seen that, covers this entire period. And it's actually, it's very well done. So, yeah, and like folks, folks can listen to a bunch of our shows,

right? You did one on the Lord of the Skies. Yeah. We've done a couple others on the various cartels as well. So guys, go back through the back. Noah Horowitz,

I think helped us out with some of those who wrote that book about Chapa, Oetaku. Yeah. And every bonus we've done with Owen Grillo,

he's talked about, I think, a lot of this stuff. So there's a lot of back catalog on that. Quintero, he's actually really considered to be one of the godfathers of the Mexican cartel world. He really revolutionized the drug business in Mexico and was one of the first dudes to link up with the Colombians to start transporting cocaine into the U.S.

They say by age 29, he already had $500 million stashed away, and that's like 1980s money, you know, or 1970s money. So that's legit. But the downfall of the Guadalajara cartel begins in the mid-80s, when the DA raids, one of these huge marijuana ranches, which allegedly produced like billions of dollars worth of weed for the cartel. And to retaliate, they kidnapped the DEA agent Kikamarena, which, you know, there's a lot to look into with that and who was involved and how he was killed, but, you know, that's a whole episode on itself. Nealless to say, he gets killed. Kintero is how

responsible, and the DEA and the U.S. government, they just go nuts after that. He ends up fleeing to Costa Rica, but he's caught soon after in 1985. And that murder, becomes this watershed moment in the drug war because it really shows the Mexican cartel guys like, you know, the U.S. agents are off limits, even if they're in Mexico or Colombia. You know, the Mexican cartels, they go on to kill numerous like Mexican government officials, military, journalists, judges, police officers, civilians in the most brutal fashions. But they will not touch a DE agent still. Is that white privilege?

I mean, Kiki, Kemi Kami Kama, I don't know. I hear what he said. Yeah, I think, I don't know if it applies here. But back to Kintaro. he gets sentenced to 40 years in prison, which was the max allowed in Mexico at the time. And he actually serves decades in there, like he actually does, which is, I guess, surprising.

But he was one of the top kingpins, very rich. So I'm sure he lived pretty well, and it's thought that he still stayed on top of the drug trade. And then in 2013, he's mysteriously released on a technicality, something about being tried improperly 28 years ago, which, I mean, most people just assume, I don't know if it's been effectively proven with evidence,

but most people just assume it was a massive bribe. So he's immediately placed on the wanted list by the DEA and the FBI. You know, $20 million reward for information leading to his capture is eventually placed on his head. And he does somehow remain, I think, under the radar for a few years because he's released during the sort of like El Chapo mania period. And then the next couple of years, you know, Chappo's arrested. Then he's escaped, then arrested. So all the focus is sort of on him. He's the big name player.

And he kind of gets forgotten a little bit. Interestingly enough, they say when he's released, he actually was offered a high position in the Sinaloa cartel by El Mio, but he declined. El Mio, like I said, one of the heads of the Sinaloa cartel, maybe one of those powerful cartel leaders out there just played the shadows,

stays in the background, kind of a genius and just really shadowy. He hasn't been arrested a bunch like Al Chapo, and he hides out, you know? Yeah, I mean, he's not doing interviews with Sean Penn, which is probably a good indicator that you're the brains of the operation, right? He did an interview years, but like one magazine, I'm not sure.

but Cantero actually did an interview. I think in 2016 with this magazine Proceso, and he says, quote, I am not at war with anyone. El Chapo and El Mio are my friends, which, you know, that's kind of, that's nice, you know? Apparently, though, he doesn't get along with Chapo's kids, Los Chapitos, or doesn't respect them,

because he ends up forming his own thing with some family members, and that's what we call the Caborka cartel. Caborka is a big municipality in Sonora, you know, prime drug trafficking routes, since it borders the U.S. Okay, so if he's friends with you, he's friends, but then he's going to kill your friends. I think that they might.

I mean, these guys are they ever really friends either? You know, isn't the whole thing just like, eventually they backstab each other and go after each other no matter how friendly they are? Yeah. Fun random fact, one of Cantero Sons is an Olympic competing equestrian and representing Mexico in the Beijing games in 2008.

And, you know, the truth is, and this is an important lesson for people to learn, anyone who does fancy competitive horse riding stuff, their parents are likely involved in organized crime and their hands are definitely bloody. It's just the nature of the sport. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty much the same in Britain as well with like weird fox hunting bridges.

Around the world. I'm going to just die on a hill here for a second. Did you know that in the Olympics, they used to have like professional or like Olympic standard knitting and poetry and stuff like that? That was part of the Olympics as well as the running and shit. When?

I think we should bring that back. When was that part of it? I think that's great. I actually... Like a hundred years ago or something. Jamie, Jamie, will you fact check that? I'm just kidding. We don't...

But someone should fact check that. I'm not going to look it up right now, but there's no way... Bring back knitting. Yeah, there's no way that's true. Hashton. I would... I'm not going to wager on it because you seem like you know what you're talking about, but I seriously, seriously doubt that.

By 2017, the Caborca cartel is up and running. But that's Chappos territory, right? And even though he's in and out of prison and escapes during that time period, you know, that's not going to go over too well. So I think they're kind of playing it a little, or Cantero's kind of playing it a little close to the chess at that point. But when he finally gets locked up again, and his son step up and we have that fracture and Los Chapitos emerge,

you know, that's a few of his kids who link up and lead that other main faction of the Sinolao Cartel, the other led by O'Mio. Remember, cartel is our federations, usually. They're not like top-down organizations. But anyway, there's this split. Amio takes some. Los Chapitos take some,

and they're not exactly super well-respected. those guys actually clash at some point. But the Caborka guys, led by Cantero, they sent an opening in that late 2000s period, like 2018, 2019, with Chapo locked up, and they start to move on it. And just because Contaro, like we said,

was cool with Chopo, doesn't mean he's going to respect his kids. And Cantaro also has deep ties to the Caborka region, which, you know, it's right, I think if you look at it, like, borders part of that Gulf of California, right?

So it's not Baja, but it's right after that. and then goes up and it actually only has like a small border next to that municipality only is a small border next to Arizona

but obviously there's lots of stuff on the side and it's good territory but this is from El Pai's quote some recall the arrival of Carol Cantaro's family

to the Sonoran Desert town in the 80s a reporter who worked in the area for more than two decades recalls an image from a time before the streets were even paved a pink limousine

quote Cairo brought a lot of money to the town the people hold him and his family in high regard. Many still live here. I mean, I don't want to piss on these chips too hard, but I would simply not buy a pink limousine in an unpaved town.

That doesn't sound like a sound. Maybe, you know, they fixed up the tires and they were riding on, you know, big wheels. You never know. All right. Now we're talking. Those guys, you know, they like to mod it out. But yeah, the cartels, they're going to end up doing what cartels do, and they start killing each other over those routes.

And it really goes public in May of 2020. when two dismembered bodies appeared with a message that, you know, commented on the situation, quote, the people of the coast are informed that we are people from Carol Cantero. The square belonged to us, and now all those producers, merchants, and miners in the region will have to pay a fee. You know, that's how you know it gets serious in Mexico when they start doing the homemade banners with the dismembered bodies. So always, yeah, it's the same in New Zealand as well, like the same kind of deal. Did I ever tell you there was like once a TV show, I think, idea that we were working on about like people who do PR for just like evil companies.

And every episode would be like a different, you know, like cartel or like jihadi group or something like that. And they'd have to like solve a problem. And then that one of the episodes like their idea was start chopping off the feet and not the heads just to show that you're different and to like make a splash. It was a dark comedy. A very, very dark. It's really good. Very dark comedy. So yeah, we have a full-fledged war on our hands.

And if you, again, look at that map of Mexico. You can see why it's an area that was going to be fought over. It's prime for getting people and drugs into the U.S. So, all right, back to Brooklyn. This is like winter, springish, 2021. Me and John meet at my apartment a few weeks later after our dinner where we sussed each other out. and we FaceTime with El Dorango. I actually, I still have the video somewhere and it's wild.

Like, if I wasn't convinced before, I am 1,000% convinced now. Like, I'm dead set on doing this. He's just like, you know, we're asking him questions and he's casually showing us all as men. They're kidded out in camo. They're cleaning their guns. Big guns. Loading up their ammo in, like, the outdoor area, this courtyard.

You know, they're getting ready to go on an ambush or patrol or something like that. it's better than the backgrounds I have on my Zoom calls but like is this is this video available? Can we see this video? I mean I haven't I don't know if I'm going to stick it up we'll see if I stick up anywhere it'll be on the Patreon but like oh come on he's making one guy show us his bullet scars

from the war another he's telling us is a mercenary I think from El Salvador or Guatemala which actually Salvador has a mercenary contingency it's in this wall like the whole area is in this wall compound You know, they've got all these four-wheelers and trucks. But he's also like showing us his house, asking us if we'd like the decor.

He's showing us his wine collection, his dog, who is like a lovely looking retriever. You know I love a retriever. I mean, this is actually an episode of crypts for sure. It's insane. At one point, he puts like his 14-year-old niece on or 13-year-old niece because she was studying English. He's asking us what we want to do when we come, if you want to go out on patrols. Like, it's truly nuts. I don't think anyone's ever done something like this when it comes to this sort of thing.

with a known guy like that. Like, I think he asked us to bring him at one point, a pair of a specific hiking boots that he wanted, you know, and he just got his guys there

like a dozen guys and they're like laughing and joking around and their camo, just loading up ammo, like ready to go out on patrol. It's insane. Did you pitch him

the cutting the feet off thing? I reckon that really would have got down pretty well. No, no, I didn't. I'm not going to cross that line. I'm not looking to do, I'm not looking to do comms.

I mean, I was pretty desperate at that point, but I was in, looking to do comms for these guys. The compound, too, it's actually located in an area outside Altar, which if you look at it on a map is very close to Caborka. It's like a hundred

miles south of the Arizona border through the desert. It's also an insanely dicey area. It's like a huge stopping point for people, smugglers, and traffickers bringing groups into the states, or for migrants looking to link up and head into the desert and make it over there, which is going to figure into some

eventual logistical decisions that I'll discuss later. But after this video conference, me actually speaking to this dude and seeing how for real he is, I'm like, I have to go. Like, this is it. This is big.

Yeah. This is going to be big. Sean, I think we were, we were, yeah, I was talking about it. I remember talking about this.

We were talking about this. We were doing the podcast. It was early days. The thing is, though, like, I'm not reckless, right? I'm scared, for real. Like, there's only been,

I think, two situations where I've been really, really scared to do a story. One was an embed, that I was offered in North Syria in like 2016, which was just real kidnapping hours at that point. It didn't end up working out,

but I was very scared of doing it. I probably would have, but I was not looking forward to it. And the second was back in 2014. I had met, maybe it was 2015, but I had met this reporter who was also like a former French Special Forces or French Foreign Legion guy.

I have a few reporter friends like that. But we met in the Central Offen Republic or maybe Cameroon before I went over. there. She met a few of them in the Central African Republic, which is interesting. But wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere of the crowd. But too often, life gets busy. Or the price holds you back. Priceline is here to help you make it happen. With millions of deals on flights, hotels, and rental cars, you can go see the game live. Don't just dream about the trip. Book it with Priceline.

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Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. This guy... CIR is pretty crazy. This guy was just cool as hell. Great reporter. And he reached out to me a while later about a story he was doing. He wanted to make a doc.

It would be going along on a refugee raft from Libya to Italy, I think. Like, what was it, Lampedusa? I think it was Lampedusa. Like, on the sea. You know what I'm talking about. I mean, these aren't, like, strung together with, like, boards. They're, like, big, heavy-duty rafts,

but it's still, you know, it's gnarly. And he said it would take a couple days. And I think he had done it already. And I can't forget him talking about how he knew the captain. And he called him a real sea wolf, which I really, I like that phrase. And I remember thinking, like, it was going to be absolutely terrifying. you know, but like I had to, I had to do it.

Yeah. And I trusted this guy. Yeah. But, and I had this weird thing. Like, I was, I was advice at the time. I had just done, or the Ebola story had just gotten a Webby award, right?

And I was at the award ceremony. And Shane Smith was there. And he's like, he's like, he was like, you were a good boy not coming back and spreading Ebola. Like, that's how he talks to people. Come by my office tomorrow. I got something for you.

So I go to his office the next day. And I sit down and he's like, I'm going to, I'm going to write you a check, like a bonus. And I was so, so worked up about this story. And my boss had said no. And I was like, I don't want, I don't want money. Just let me do this story.

Which, if you're a young reporter, don't make that mistake. Like, always take the money. But he heard me out. And he was like, I can't let you do that. You know, we'd have to send a boat after you just in case it, it would, like, it just won't work. And I ended up, like, pitching him a Rohinga story. And he said, fine.

But I probably could have got that approved anyway. So it was just the giant waste And it's a major regret I should have 100% Taking the money I told the colleague that story afterward Like a couple days later And he was like, you're an idiot

Shane like buys people motorcycles So yes I am an idiot I end up doing the Rohingya story Like a year later I actually probably made One of the best docs I've ever made But no one paid attention

It was called Myanmar's Muslim Minority or Left for Dead Look it up, it's on my website It's incredible But the moral of the story is take the check. Always. Let them cut the check and then take that check. But what was I talking about?

Oh yeah. TV, man. No. God. There is a TV. Like, they would just literally, oh my God, it would take a committee of like 20 people to get a print journalist out to be on my mind. Dude, it took a committee to get this one done. But actually there's a reporter who did a much

crazier refugee boat story. Luke Mogulson, one of the best writers in the world. I think it's called the Great Easter Island Boat Lift or something. It was for the New York Times Magazine, I think. It's one of the best pieces of journalism I've ever read. Go look it up. There's also like a video, like an eight second clip of them on the boat.

I think the photographer took while he was on it. And it just like shows the raft like going up and down. It's like it's gnarly, man. It's an incredible piece of work. It's amazing. I think it's from like 2012. Christmas Island. That's right.

Australia, Indonesia kind of way. But yeah, it's unreal. Like it's just the best piece of journalism. Yeah. So I digress a bit. But yeah, the point is. I was scared and I wanted to try to figure stuff out. So I start to make some calls, you know, to feel it out, see what my colleagues or friends

who had done this sort of work before in the region, you know, done some real cartel stuff, maybe not as crazy as this, but close. I think there were three that I called. And the consensus was kind of like, sure, why not? I mean, not. Like, they were definitely nervous and like taking it seriously, but they were also kind of like, maybe go for it. And the reasoning was kind of, you know, the same thing I was thinking about too,

which is not the Middle East. It serves no purpose for these guys to kidnap American journalists. Like it's actually kind of the dumbest shit they can do. Like they don't want that level of attention. Now obviously these guys are lunatics, right? And they're violence. So who knows what could happen. You know, they're in a war.

There's also that front. Like they could get shot up. They could get attacked. Who knows what could happen. But at the end of the day, the thing is like, fuck it. You know, I'll mitigate the risk, which I always do. And it was worth it. Like I was convinced the story would have.

escalated my career and it would have been big. You know, I always talk about that Kobani story under siege where my cameraman didn't get through when I did and that feeling of regret afterwards about how your career would have been made. And this is, this was that too. You know, if it had worked out, let's just say I probably wouldn't be making a goddamn podcast in my bedroom as all, you know? Oh, I'm hurt. So, you know, then I'm...

Yeah, come back from that. Yeah. Yeah, what are you going to say now? Anyway, I'm basically like, I'm going to do this story now. I think it's like a couple months from the first conversation, but I need to put together a crew or at least find a shooter, find some funding, figure out the logistics,

so it's just more time delays. The usual way to do this is pitching. I kind of almost didn't bother. Maybe I reached out to one or two people I knew because who's going to sign off on that, right? No one's going to okay that. So that left, you know,

self-funding on the credit card. And I would have to find a cameraman on spec, which means that he works for free until we sell it, which is not, it's not an easy thing to do. you don't want to ask people to do that. I have enough of a community too that I think I could have found someone relatively easy

but also is sort of ask, right? It's not just like a regular assignment. It's something very dangerous. There's no guarantee of pay. I'm asking someone to do probably the riskiest thing in their career and I can't really guarantee their safety at all. So I kind of felt, yeah, I wasn't,

I wasn't as aggressive in asking people, but I found a friend I worked with before who was willing to do it and we're set up and we're good to go. then it's logistics, right? So that's tough. But I figure fly into Tucson, get a ride across the border to Nogales.

But El Durango's compound is somewhere outside Altar, which is maybe like an hour and a half, two hours drive. I don't remember exactly, but it's a gnarly drive to. One that's going to take hours. Nogales is relatively safe, but that drive is not safe.

Even though El Durango's people kind of do control the territory, there's like no telling what could happen, you know? Things could go wrong, if not one day than the other day. But what's our option then? We could stay at a hotel on the border and do that, drive it back every day. I think it's like four hours of driving through a dicey area day after day. A lot that could go wrong.

So we decide, you know what? It's probably safer just to overnight it at the compound. You know, that's right. We're going to have a sleepover. I mean, just like the guy's got a big house hanging out to crack some of that wine open. Like it could very well come under attack, but also, you know, his daughter was there at one point. Not his daughter. I'm sorry.

his niece, his dudes were kidded out. It's definitely the safer of the options. It's not a great option. There is no great options in this, but it's the safer one. So we'll spend three or four days' tops, hang out, get insane footage, and come back. Yeah, I mean, people famously don't attack rival narco's houses, right? So you're probably safe there. Well, you know, they were doing well.

And it was kidding. And the wine's good. Yeah, but, well, I mean, what would you have done? Like, would you have taken that drive every day? You know, I think the drive is more dangerous than just staying. We're already trusting this guy with our life, you know? Yeah, definitely. No, I mean, he's probably got nice, like, big bedrooms and places to stay.

So, yeah. So I'm excited, man. Like, I'm ready to go. It's nearing the end of March. I'm about to buy the tickets. And my friend is like, I can't do it. I shoot her. I have another shoot a few days after for some, like, snowboarding thing.

And, you know, what if we get delayed? I don't want to risk it. You know, I think maybe he was. maybe he was a little scared, but also it's like, I kind of understand, right? It's a risky thing to do. He has guaranteed money.

You know, but at the same time, I want to just fucking strangle him, just murder him, especially a few months later when, you know, everything went wrong. But he's out.

So now I need to find another shooter and I start talking to this journalist based in Latin America who works for one of the British channels or freelances. I think his name was Guillermo. He has experience in this world. He's done some good work.

I think he was actually working on something about the Mormons killed near there at the time. And he wanted me to ask El Durango about it. And he was often to come with me and shoot it if he could also do an interview about that. But he was like playing these weird games. You know, he started trying to snake me in a weird way. Like he started telling me some fixer he knew was telling or was telling him that El Durango was telling other journals they could embed as well, which I don't even know what his motivation was and why he was saying that. But it was obviously a lie. He was trying to blame me for some reason.

It just didn't make sense. Like I couldn't see his angle. Maybe they tried to get me to go sooner. But needless to say, it didn't work out and just fuck that guy. You know, we're airing it all out today. Serename? No, I mean, like, I had the same with this gangland fixer in Mumbai recently. It's the story I'm going to head off to do in a month or two out in Western India.

It's going to be really cool. But he just kept ducking and diving and pretending he knows people and folding me numbers that don't lead anywhere. And he's like, I know this guy, I can get you in touch with this guy. Do not do this. Like, we are actually journalists. We can figure this stuff out eventually.

This guy wasn't even a fixture. It was a producer. And it just, it didn't make sense to me. That's even weirder. Yeah, we're airing it all out. You know, you start a podcast that makes as much money

as a part-time way to our Applebee's. You can just, you don't have to care anymore. You can just start burning bridges, you know? Fuck you money. It just, is it, what's it called? Anelastic good?

Is that the term? It just depends on how tired you are. And, uh, I am tired. So the point of that story, what was the point of that story? The point of that story was that. That was the point of that stuff. That guy wasted another two weeks of my time, which again, if you're paying attention

to the theme, a lot of time being wasted here that could have been spent doing this story. But finally, I connect with a great shooter who was based in Istanbul and he was on board. He was like, he was like, so gung-ho about it. I was like, are you sure you not like a little concern? He's like, no, let's do this. I think I even at one point before that had posted on IG, like on my IG, which is private just being like,

does anyone know or is anyone an experienced cameraman willing to do a dangerous assignment on spec? But that's how desperate I was. But it worked. And I bought all the tickets, the flights, the hotel, everything, like we're set to go. And then, like, five days before the flight, that text message comes in.

And it's that scene from the open, man. It's just like, I knew. You know, I saw it. It didn't even hinted anything. It was like, yo, just call me. And I just knew. I knew it was too good to be true. It wasn't going to work out.

And I called John and he's like, they got him. And I'm like, who got him? And he's like, everyone. Like, literally everyone got him. And he's not getting out. I think John actually spoke to the niece at one point. But here's an article from April 21, 2021, Infobay.com. The headline, blow to Los Chapitos.

El Durango fell. The boss of the plaza in charge of the fight against Carol Cantaro. the leader of the Delta group was transferred aboard an armed forces helicopter in the middle of a strong operation. And the whole operation, you know, coordinated by the Army, the National Guard, and then Attorney General's office. I've just been saying the Federals because I feel like that's just the catchall that sounds good. But yeah, the Army, the National Guard, and the Attorney General's office, you know, they're not playing around. They're not just going to throw him in the local jail either. He's transferred, he doesn't stay local.

He's transferred in an Armed Force helicopter to Hermosio, which is, you know, a much bigger. city. I think the capital of the province. I'm 100% positive on that. The kind of place you can't easily bribe your way out of. The week before, apparently, his gunman had ambushed the army for some reason. I think it was a mistaken thing and killed two soldiers. There was, I think, rumors maybe the army was working with Caro Cantero. Something along those lines, but that's a, that's a big no-no, man. You can't really do that and expect to survive and get away with it. And yeah, that's it. No chance. Story over.

Couldn't even get a refund on the tickets. That's how it goes. And then I'm back to doing podcast with Sean. That's just my life. I guess it's not just my life. But anyway. Again, I'm feeling great. I guess we were lucky.

We weren't with them when they got rated. It was how people tried to portray it to me, you know, because that could have gone real bad. Maybe we get blamed by some people. Maybe something else happens. So yeah, I guess maybe lucky in a way. but that one just stung and I think I thought about it every day

for months afterwards like what could have been just like playing it out on my head how it would have gone and what we would have gotten with it and the reaction that we would have gotten so yeah man anyway Durango I think is still locked up

Cantara was actually arrested a year or so later in July of 2022 I think 30 people were killed in the week afterward as Los Chapitos made their move against him and his people and then just in February one of his nephews,

Cantaro's nephew, who was helping to run things. He gets arrested too. So the Caborka Catelle has been, you know, they've taken some big hits, just like us here at the Underworld podcast.

But wait, are you still in touch with John? Like, is he in touch with Durango's guys? And most importantly, does he know where to get a decent Michelada in Crown lights? Yeah, he's not,

he's not Mexican. He's still, yeah, he's working on something else right now. I don't know if he's still in touch because Durango's locked up. But yeah, I actually message him before. He's a good dude, and I feel bad for not delivering on that. But I messaged him before the episode.

He'd be like, dude, is it cool if I tell this story? And he was like, yeah, I just don't use my name. So, yeah, hope you guys like this little peek behind the curtains. I know it's very different from our last episode. But, you know, we are no slaves to format. We're just going to throw it out there. And as always, patreon.com slash the underworld podcast for donations and whatnot. or you can do it and get the bonus episodes.

Maybe I'll put the video up. Maybe I won't. And you can also go on iTunes and subscribe with one click. But thanks again, as always, for tuning in. The Underworld Podcast at gmail.com. What is it? Yeah, do the rating and the five stars and all that other nonsense. All of that stuff.

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