The Underworld Podcast - War in Venezuela?!?! Narcoterrorism, Maduro and Trump

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

With gunboats parked in the Caribbean, fast boats blown up, and the White House threatening to invade, we unpick some of the narratives surrounding Venezuela’s regime — and its gangs. Is the Tren de Aragua really exporting fentanyl to the US? Is Nicolas Maduro the head of a global narcotics trafficking organization? And is the Cartel of the Suns actually a thing? Featuring guest interviews and footage from a famous 1993 bust, we dive into the past, present — and uncertain future — of one of DC’s longest-standing regional feuds, and ask: is it truly all about drugs? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. It's the morning of September 1st, 2025, in the Bokas del Dragon, the mouths of the dragon. A 15-mile series of straits separating Venezuela's Paria Peninsula with the western shores of the island of Trinidad. It's a key criminal transshipment point, whether for drugs heading into the Caribbean, the US and Europe, or people smuggled from a life in one of the world's most repressive dictatorships, to what they pray will be freedom, perhaps in the land of the free itself. Which is why the site of a 40-foot speedboat,

barreling along the ocean's surface with the power of four 200-horsepower engines, isn't that strange. far less than on this particular morning and on this particular vessel sit no fewer than 11 people huddled around a collection of barrels fish maybe drugs likely see Venezuelan media reports that the speedboat has come from san juan de unari a sleeping fishing village at the very frontier of the venezuelan state not only because beyond it lies a little bit jungle but because it is poor and remote 300 miles east of the capital city, Caracas, across some of the least accessible terrain on earth. That's why tiny San Juan de Onari, population of just a few hundred, has for two decades turned into a hotly contested cartel plaza.

Ground zero for cocaine, cannabis and people smuggling routes out of Venezuela. Pirates, their tempers trained in the depths of Chavista prisons, going to war. for pride, turf and trade. In 2018, in a town just down the road, a two-day gun battle between rival gangs, one of them that feared Tren der Agua had left 78 men dead, dismembered and rotting in the tropical sun. The victor's spoils? The fishermen? Their offer? Run products for us, or you die. In San Juan de Ornay, says reported Rone Riesquez, I saw it with my own eyes. There was a town taken over by drug trafficking.

The speedboat rattles on. Are those on board narcos, pirates, or migrants? Nobody will know for sure. Because, as it rattles on, the US is watching, via a drone that hovers ominously overhead. The boatmen steer their vessel around, perhaps aware their engraved danger. It doesn't matter. Moments clatters into the boat, either from a military helicopter or a reaper drone. The boat explodes.

Everybody on board is dead. San Juan di Unari is in mourning, reads the caption on one TikTok video of the attack, likely from Venezuela. May those fathers who entered that world out of necessity so their families can live a little better, rest in peace. Trinidadian leaders are less forgiving. are less forgiving. The pain and suffering the cartels have inflicted on our nation is immense, says his Prime Minister. I have no sympathy for traffickers. The U.S. military should kill them all violently. American officials follow soon. Earlier this morning, on my orders, U.S. military forces conducted a kinetic strike against positively identified Trin de Aragua

narco-terrorists, writes President Donald Trump in a post to Trin. through social. It occurred while the terrorists were at sea in international waters transporting illegal narcotics heading to the United States, he adds. Venezuelan President Nicola Maduro denies the claims. He would, of course, but it's soon clear this strike is just one of many, as the White House conducts no fewer than 21 attacks on vessels coming out of the Boribarian Republic. Operation Southern Spear, as it will be done. is in many ways a Cold War throwback, when White House officials led expeditionary campaigns under the banner of counter-narcotics. Just asked Manuel Noriega. But is Venezuela really shipping

synthetics that are killing almost 80,000 Americans each year? Is the Trin de la Acua really an international drug trafficking empire conducted by the Maduro regime? Is Washington using drugs to topple one of its biggest foes? Is this really all about oil? And what the hell is the country? Cartel de Rosoles, the Cartel of the Sons, anyway. This is the underworld podcast. Oh, and welcome to the weekly organized crime podcast, where two seasons reporters who have traveled all over the world tell stories of the bandits and bad guys that make our economies tick.

You may be thinking, who's that cool guy rocking a cap and thick-rimed specs, uh, six in the morning? Well, you wouldn't want to see me without them right now. Sean Williams back in New Zealand after my yearly visits in New York. And I'm joined, of course, by Danny Gold. Unfortunately, we have to do these things remotely for another six months or so, at least. But you will get one more. We're recording in person as our next show.

No, no, it's the previous one. I think we just switched the things. But this won't be interesting because I think my sound will be on upstate, so I'm out of the studio. And forgive us if my sound is off. But that's okay, because Sean's going to lead us on a fantastic. journey. Oh, that's so kind of you. Yeah. And one more thing, happy ashes to those who celebrate. I mean, honestly, like, we're in New York bars last week and it was all just like, who's going to get Scotty

Boland? Will Zach Crawley get, like, actually play proper shots? Danny, chill out, mate. Like, it's getting a bit boring now. I still don't even know if you're talking about like cricket or rugby or some other sport that I quit it. I don't even know, dude, what you guys do over there? Yeah, it's the ashes. But as we're recording this, something very embarrassing happened to England, so we're not going to mention it anymore. Anyway, before we kick off today's show, I should mention we have a special 20% off all merch, which you can bag at our website,

which is underworldpod.com with the code underworld. Did I get that right? Yes, you did. Congratulations. That's for the holidays, I think through the new year. Happy holidays, Kwanza, I don't know what it's called. Anyway, and a reminder to head over to Patreon where we have a whole bunch of bonus interviews, extra show material, notes, reading lists, and more.

For the price of what I can now honestly say is, half of a coffee in Brooklyn. And please let us know it's stuff you'd like to do there, plus anything else at our email, The Underworld Podcasts at gmail.com. Anything else? Yeah.

So as you guys may have noticed, you know, we have ads. We also have a Patreon for bonus stuff that we're talking about. We make money off it. We would like to make more money off it. But unfortunately,

Bluetooth doesn't return our emails anymore on account of Sean, you know, trying to lure them in as a sponsor with some homemade videos that's got us banned from a lot of websites. But the Patreon itself. Yeah.

Yeah. The Patreon itself has stopped, stop growing for a second. So we want to know what would actually get you to sign up for it? Like, what if for every episode we had an additional 20 minutes of bonus material? What if Sean did the bonuses without his shirt on? Let us know in the comments on Spotify and YouTube or email us at the Underworld Podcasts at gmail.mail. Or should we just start selling courses, Sean? Should we teach a course?

A step-by-step process. Yeah. Long-form articles and can bake. Documentaries and podcasts. Like, I don't know if my conscience would allow me. me to convince someone to go into journalism. But anyway, that's a long update. And also, we're going to do an AMA for Christmas, New Year's Week. So send us questions if you have them. And now, sorry for the delay. Let's get on with this episode. Yes, let's, I'm not going to do

top list shows because I've got some toes that should never be seen. But I know it's pretty tough to keep up with the new cycle. I mean, I'm a journalist and I barely bother myself at the moment. But right up there is the increasing tension between the US and Venezuela. The airstrikes on vessels in the Caribbean, just like the one I mentioned in the cold open just now. It's gunboats and aircraft carrier station just outside of Venezuela and water. It's all kind of talk about raging, change, ground evasions, and it's all being led by claims that the Venezuelan government either through the Tren de Aragua, which we've covered on this show previously. I'm sorry, what was that, the Carolina. Can you say it again?

Caroline is my Spanish tutor and I truly apologize to her for that. Just do it one more time. Ragua. Beautiful. Yeah. It's like poetry. Or this, thank you very much. The other group called the Cartes de los Solis, the cartel of the Sons, is flooding the United States with drugs.

The White House says fentanyl, which accounts for around 75 overdose deaths per year. It's probably going to go down again this year. 75,000. 75,000. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. something like that, I think out of the total 80 something thousand.

It's going down, though. It's coming down, which I'll mention later on in the show, actually, because it's quite interesting that. A lot of this stuff with Venezuela is just confusing as hell. You've got the President Donald Trump telling the CIA to conduct covert operations in Venezuela. Like, okay, what's new? Threatening to blow the place up, you've got Marco Rubio, Trump's Secretary of State, saying the Venezuelan President Nicola Maduro is the, quote,

terrorist in chief of the cartel of the Sons. You've got Maduro singing John Lennon's Imagine in Caracas, which I think we can hear now. Alfred Nazare, how was the song of John Lennon? The imagination of people. Wait, hold on. Are we going to get copyright ding for this, or do you think the Maduro version we're allowed to do? I think the Maduro version, we could play them side by side, but it would be absolutely horrendous. Yeah, imagine doing karaoke with Maduro. Anyway, this is all very fluid, very weird.

But since this is a major news story led by drug trafficking, and I'm currently writing a story for Playboy magazine. Yeah, like, actually that Playboy magazine about Venezuela. I don't know why there would be another Playboy magazine. It would be silly not to unpick what's going on for you guys. So today we will get into the Tren de la Agua and its rival, and we'll get into the cartel of the sons, Venezuelan drug trafficking, and perhaps more importantly, some of the backroom politics and economics driving all of this.

Yeah, and I've actually got a great cartel of the sun's story. I'll tell a little bit later about a friend I made in jail when I gave a talk in jail in D.C., but we'll, you know that story, but we'll save that. We'll save that for later. Yeah, that's going to be really cool. So this is super interesting stuff, guys, and don't worry, we're not going to be winging about socialism or capitalism. This is a show about facts, and to help us along, I've spoken with two guys who really know their stuff, which will sprinkle in among the show. You've got Michael Pahlberg, who's a political science professor, who I really, really rate. And Phil Gunson, who is the crisis group's man in Caracas. He's lived there for like 30-odd years. He knows the place very well indeed.

I trust Sean. I don't know any of these guys. So if you do have a complaint to make in the comments about them directed at Sean. Yeah. Yeah, go for it because Danny moderates the comments. This is journalism. It's exciting. So let's crack on. I guess the first thing to note here is that for the most part, none of this is particularly new, right? Some variation of this situation has gone on since 1992 when Hugo Chavez made his first attempt at a military coup, followed by a second in 1993, before he finally took power of Venezuela in a 1998 election and transformed the nation into his socialist utopia. In fact, it's been going on a lot longer than that too. here's a pretty incredible 1993 edition of the TV show 60 Minutes called the CIA's Cocaine.

A ton of cocaine, pure cocaine worth hundreds of millions, is smuggled into the United States. Sound familiar? Not the way this ton of cocaine got here. According to what the former head of the Drug Enforcement Administration told Mike Wallace, this drug shipment got here courtesy of what he calls drug trafficking by the CIA in partnership with the Venezuelan National Guard. While rumors of CIA involvement in drug trafficking have circulated for years, no one in the U.S. government has ever before publicly charged the CIA with this kind of wrongdoing. And it's not the kind of accusation anyone in government would make without thinking long and hard. Now, we understand what you're saying.

A ton of cocaine was smuggled into the United States of America by the Venezuelan National Guard? Well, in cooperation with the CIA? That's what that's exactly what appears to have happened. Until last month, Judge Robert Bonner was the head of the drug enforcement administration, the DEA. And Judge Bonner explained to us that only the head of the DEA is authorized to approve the transportation of any illegal narcotics like cocaine into this country, even if the CIA is bringing it in. Let me put it this way, Mike, if this has not been approved by DEA or an appropriate law enforcement authority in the United States, then it's illegal. It's called drug trafficking.

It's called drug smuggling. So what you're saying, in effect, is the CIA broke the law. Simple as that. I don't think there's any other way you can rationalize around it, assuming as I think we can that there was some knowledge on the part of CIA, at least some participation in approving or condoning this to be done. During the 1980s, over half of the cocaine produced by Colombian cartels, primarily Medellin, of course, crosses the very very.

Venezuelan border on its way to the US and Europe. Then President Ronald Reagan dispatches the CIA to gather intelligence on Medellin. And so, the CIA alongside Venezuela's Guard de Nacional, its National Guard, launches an undercover drug smuggling operation inside Venezuela in order to infiltrate Medellin. And it works. And the CIA acquires over a ton of coke, which is stored at Venezuela's Intelligence HQ in Caracas. And can you guess what happens next? To keep the undercover smuggling operation credible, they had to keep the cartel happy.

And the way to do that was simple. Deliver their dope, untouched by U.S. law enforcement, to the cartel's distributors, their dope dealers in the United States. The CIA and the Guardia Nacional wanted to let cocaine go on into the traffic without doing anything. They wanted to let it come up to United States. no surveillance, no nothing. In other words, you weren't going to stop them in Miami or Houston or wherever.

These drugs were simply going to go to the United States and then go into the traffic and eventually reach the streets. That's what they wanted to do, yes. Why in the world would they want to do that? As they explained to me, that this would enable them to gain the traffickers' confidence, keep their informant cool, and it would result in future seizures of larger quantities of drugs. and also they hope to, I guess they thought they were going to get Pablo Escobar at the scene of the crime or something,

which I found personally ludicrous. So at this point, legally, only the DEA is permitted to bring narcotics onto U.S. soil. Wait, so what's the reasoning for the smuggling in the first, like smuggling into the U.S. at the first place? Is it to, you know, bust the distribution networks? Is it to make money for guns? Like, what's the actual plan here? No, this isn't like Iran-Contra stuff. This is actually just to get inside the Medellin cartel, which is suddenly blowing up. So they're worried about, like, who these guys are and what they're doing.

So the idea is you've got to do the whole thing in order to get the good intel. And when the CIA station chief in Karaka says he wants to smuggle over a ton of Medellin product into Miami from Venezuela, the DEA says, not on your Nelly, which means no, Danny. no goddamn way. And you know what the CIA does? Well, yeah, of course you do. We all do. At first, the drugs won't fit through the door.

They literally will not fit through the door of the 707, the officials of commission for the job, which is kind of funny. And then when they do fly into Miami, Custom seizes it and traces it back to the Venezuelan National Guard. No shit. In a subsequent report, the CIA finds itself not guilty of any criminal wrongdoing,

but rather, quote, poor judgment and mismanagement. I should add, like, a lot of this product. actually gets onto the streets. That's the kind of scandal of this. Two CIA officers stepped down and all charges against Venezuelan participants are dropped, perhaps because the Intel, this whole thing gleaned, its proper top drawer stuff. Wait, so what happens with the Intel? So you're going to hear in a video that all they got was like two truck drivers in the end. They didn't get anyone up top in Medellín at all. What intelligence was generated by the shipment of this

thousand to fifteen hundred kilos controlled or uncontrolled it was very positive really who who who did you finger what did you find out right now a truck driver and the truck that were trafficking drugs into Venezuela are under arrest there was another truck and two similar van types were also caught so what you're saying is that you captured a three three or four or five truck drivers. I'm asking about intelligence in the United States that was generated by the actual shipment

of these kilos into the United States. Now, whether or not here in the United States they arrested anyone or the intelligence gathered was useless, that is the responsibility of the Americans. I guess what this whole thing shows is that the Guard de Nacional in Venezuela, were corrupt. The CIA made a mess. A best made a massive mistake. A ton of drugs got onto the streets in Miami and elsewhere. And it kind of shows how corruption at the highest levels in Venezuela and

the U.S. allows the cocaine industry to fry from Colombia to Venezuela and on to the U.S. but also Europe, right? And it's in that same year as the 60 Minutes Investigation, 1993, that we get the first mention of something called the Cartel de Rosolis, the cartel of. the Sons. It's a term coined by Venezuelan reporters, after two anti-narcotics chiefs there, are investigated for their role in the drug industry. Each of these guys has a single son insignia on his epaulet, hence the phrase cartel of the son, singular. When higher up, commanders are fingered in this investigation who have two sons on their appellets, the phrase shifts to cartel of the sons, plural. According to Insight Crime, three major factors result in an

increase in Venezuelan officials' involvement in cocaine. Now, first is the United States' 1999 Plan Colombia, which pays the Colombian government billions of dollars to go after cartels and left-wing paramilitaries like the FARC who are shipping products through the region. We've mentioned them in this plan in many other shows. This pushes the guerrilla groups over the border into Venezuela. Second, in 2002, the Colombian government opens peace tools with the FARC, forcing them out of their safe havens in the jungle south of the country, again pushing them into Venezuela in some parts. And third is an attempted coup against Hugo Chavez in 2002,

which actually forces him out of power for two days before he wrestles control of the country back. This forces Chavez's tension away from combating drug cartels and towards punishing coup plotters and putting out a bunch of other economic fires in this aftermath. Guys, the holidays are almost here. You know what that means. It's gift time. If you still have names on your list, do not panic because uncommon goods makes holiday shopping,

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But what he's really doing is handing them the keys to the drug trade. because Venezuela's economy is dropping like a stone at this point, and Chavez can't afford to pay his officials a proper wage. So by posting into remote, lawless borderlands and turning a blind eye, he's letting them make up their salary shortfall by skimming off government contracts, bribing citizens, or getting involved in the drug industry. Venezuelan reporters, mayors, or officials who come up against these corrupt military officials often wind up dead. And in 2005, Chavez frees up even more room for narco-jointed.

trafficking inside his country by banishing the DEA from Venezuela. In 2008, the US sanctions Venezuelan head of military intelligence, Hugo Carval, sorry, for helping the FARC. You're doing great. Thank you, thank you. I need that every five minutes, just so you can set a timer, for helping the FARC smuggle drugs through Colombia. Chavez thumbs his nose at the White House by then appointing Carvajal as the nation's national official

against organized crime and financing of terror. Now, Carvaha will later be arrested while in Aruba, which is a Dutch colony just off the Venezuelan coast. And after a protracted legal process, Carvajal actually pled guilty this June, 2025, to drug and firearm trafficking charges in Manhattan. Now, in your professional opinion, do you think Chavez was ever like just, you know,

railing a couple lines at his desk? Didn't he used to do like eight-hour, radio addresses. I mean, nobody not on a cocaine can talk for eight hours. That's just a fact. No, and people on cocaine can talk for a lot, a lot longer than that. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah, my professional opinion is that I agree. Allegedly. Yeah, allegedly. Sorry, allegedly. Do you think he's going to be sued by his estate. His estate. His a stable, dude. Staying on 2005, this is the first time the U.S. imposing sanctions on Venezuelan officials for their roles in international criminal operations, including drug trafficking.

So Hugo Chavez dies in March 2013, and he's succeeded by his VP, Nicola Maduro, and government collusion in drug trafficking goes through the roof. In September that year, cops at Paris's Charle de Gaulle Airport discover 1.3 tons of cocaine worth over a quarter of a billion dollars on an Air France flight from Caracas. This is the country's biggest ever seizure, France, that The 30 suitcases containing the drugs aren't registered to any of the passages on board, and authorities quickly blame members of the Venezuelan National Guard the exact same institution that had been ferrying gear with the CIA and Medellin cartel back in the 80s. You got to have some balls to think you can sneak 30 suitcases by like normal airport security,

even if it is the French, you know? This wasn't like a private plane. It's like a normal commercial airliner. They're like, we're just going to stick an extra 30 suitcases on there. we'll figure it out when we get there. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, the last part of that point does do a lot of heavy lifting. Like, it is the French.

But, yeah, two years later, D.E.A. agents arrested the adopted son and nephew of Venezuelan, First Lady Celia Flores de Maduro in Porta Prince, which is the capital of Haiti, for attempting to ship 800 kilos of cocaine into the U.S. It's a really weird case, actually. DEA chiefs say the... I would say she is, if you look into it, She's the one who's really suspected a lot. I think, I mean, you've looked at a bit more than I have,

of being the brains behind the smuggling operation of the cocaine stuff, which we'll talk about in a couple minutes because I have something very interesting to add about that. Yeah, yeah. She's a strange-looking lady as well, but yes, she's, this case is... Sean, that's not nice. Pretty odd. I just said she's unique.

I'll say she's unique. DEA chiefs say this pair, the adopted son and nephew of her, We're trying to make $20 million from the deal to, quote, keep their family in power. And they are sentenced to 18 years in New York the following year with Maduro decrying the whole episode of an example of, quote, U.S. imperialism. It's really funny. Even the judge says like these two guys were basically just dopes and they didn't really know what they were doing. I think he says they were like, quote, over their heads or something.

Wouldn't be the first time NEPO kids get caught trying to smuggle a whole bunch of cocaine and they're just not good at it, you know? Yeah, that's very true. Probably, I mean, don't do it through Haiti. That seems like a pretty big mess step. Anyway, while these high-profile cases make headlines, there are more and more accusations of top-level narco-trafficking by Venezuelan officials, both from the US and from rival Karaka Zaparachics. In 2017, Donald Trump, in his first term, slaps a ton of sanctions on Venezuela, preventing it from trading globally. There's a lot to this, but you can listen to other shows for that. And in 2019, when the White House backs anti-Maduro politician Juan Guaido to try to take the country from Maduro, it doubles down. It hobbles Venezuela's ability to sell gold, oil, and other commodities.

By the end of 2019, the U.S. and its allies have sanctioned 119 Venezuelans, many for their roles in cocaine trafficking. Okay, so let's do a, let's do story time about my friend, Jensky, Antonio Lamas Rondo. I think I've talked about this on the podcast, but years ago. So I was giving a talk in D.C., I think it must have been 2017 or 2018, maybe 2018, about gangs in El Salvador. It was through the Pulitzer Center. So they kind of send you around to do talks. And as one of the side quests, I went to a D.C. jail to give a talk.

And it was one of the jails where it's kind of like, you know, not people just sentenced to on their two years. It's where people are serious people are either waiting to get out or waiting for their cases to play out. Great time had by all. Everyone loves me, of course. I make a bunch of new friends, but there's one guy in the class doesn't say much. He's kind of in the corner quiet,

but he's wearing like a Kipa, like a Yamika, which if you know anything about D.C. jails, like that's a, you know, they've got heavy with the black Muslim gangs there. If you're going to be solo wearing a Kippa there, you got to be like a bad, bad man. You know, like you're not messing around. Some people in prisoner in jails will pretend to be Jewish to get kosher food. I think Kurt Calabrese,

who I've also spent some time with, and we talked about with the Chicago outfit stuff. When he was there, he told me he did that because the kosher fruit was that much better. But this guy was not doing that, right? When the class ends, he comes up to me. His English isn't great, but we're able to communicate. And he introduces himself, and he's like, you know,

we should talk, what's here, whatever. We start trading letters for a while. So this guy was busted in Colombia. He's Venezuelan. He was busted in Colombia with the help of the DEA, I think, in 2016. arranging massive coke shipments, then extradited to the U.S. in 2017. Now, he's a former army captain

for the Venezuelan Air Force, I believe, who's set to be a pilot and a one-time bodyguard for Maduro's wife, who is, like we said, said to be, I think, some of the brains behind, whatever you want to call the cartel of the sons, but the Coke smuggling operation out of Venezuela.

So this is not a guy, like someone you want to play with. He's the kind of guy who could get away with doing that in a D.C. jail. So we exchange info. He ends up becoming like a pen pal. Like we trade letters, probably like 10 or 15 letters each for years. He's telling me a story that he has all this info, all this stuff, that he wants to, like, expose the Madera regime, that he also wants me to help him get a rabbi to go to the, to go to the jail and all that sort of stuff. I think he actually ends up doing an interview with Reuters.

he kind of implies that he didn't mean to and he was kind of tricked. He was going to tell me this, whatever. But I don't know. He was a high-level guy in that operation and whatever you want to call the cocktail, the sons, which we'll get into, responsible for hundreds of drug treatments,

they say he turned state evidence. We lost contact maybe two or three years ago. And my assumption is that he is probably in WITSEC somewhere. I don't know, but he's definitely testifying for a lot. of these trials and a lot of these officials helping them build the case. I don't know. It was just a fascinating sort of side situation that I found myself in. But very, very nice emails, very nice guy. And I hope he's doing all right if he's out there, you know? Yeah, I mean, that would make sense given there's a bunch of like really high profile

prosecutions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know this, though. I've told you, I've told you, we talked about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, yeah, do get the kosher or halal options on flights because they actually have decent food and you get them before everyone else and then you can go to sleep. That's my big tip for this show. Yeah. Anyway, so this huge round of sanctions, right, 119 Venezuelans, many of whom have been sanctioned for their role in drug trafficking. Despite this, it actually seems like, from a lot of the sources that I've read, that Maduro

had cracked down on Venezuelan's role in the narco scene by 2019. So that year, the DEA reports that 74% of US-bound cocaine comes through the so-called Eastern Pacific route. That is from the coasts of Colombia and Ecuador. Another 16% comes from the quote, Western Caribbean route, and that means Central America. So Panama, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, Belize. The area the DEA calls the Eastern Caribbean, which includes Colombia's northern coast, Venezuela, Guyana, you're supposed to say Guyana? I think someone said that.

Guyana and Suriname. Shout out to my Super Anand, great guy, Gaiyanese. Nice. He doesn't get enough of a shout out on this show, but he's funny. He doesn't get enough credit, but we want to make sure that when we can and we give him proper respect. Props. And Suriname, that is, that corridor comprises only 8%.

So here is an excerpt from a brilliant piece by Guacamaya editor Elias Ferrer, who I spoke to my Playboy article recently that it's going to be out in spring, I think. Anyway, quote, for 2018, it was estimated that 210 metric tons of cocaine moved through Venezuela. This figure, while this is high, is marginal compared to other routes. 2,372 tons were trafficked out of Colombia directly. Since 2013, when Maduro rose to power, the two routes have maintained a ratio of 9 to 1. simultaneously, that same year, more than 1,400 metric tons transited through Guatemala, a much smaller country, while the Mexican land corridor is estimated to have moved 2,000 metric

tons by the State Department. So is this just to the U.S. are we talking about here? It is not. No. Because I was going to say, I think a lot of the Venezuelan stuff goes through, well, not a lot. I mean, I don't know what the number is, but I know that Trinidad is a very popular transshipment point for Venezuelan cocaine, because it's. you know, however many dozens of miles off the coast of Venezuela.

Yeah. And when I was down there in like 2014, that was big talk about how the Venezuelan gangs were starting to move stuff through Trinidad into Europe. Like that was the more popular route for the cocaine that was coming into Trinidad. So I wonder, but you're saying this is total, not just in the U.S. This is total. Yeah. And I'm going to do a show in a few weeks about Suriname, which is really this crazy,

topsy-turvy story. It's going to be really cool. But most of that and the stuff out of Venezuela, like you say, it goes through Trinidad, parts of the Caribbean, then it actually heads across the Atlantic into Europe. Actually, the U.S. is not the major destination. Yeah, yeah, so this is total. This is total. So I would assume that a very small amount of that is then getting to the U.S.

It's actually amazing. Like, if you don't know that part of the world, like I don't really. Trinidad and Aruba and Kurichout, they're just like, you could throw a stone and hit them from Venezuela. It was pretty crazy. Yeah, huge issue there, not just with, not just, with, I mean, I think I talked about a little bit later, but not just with drugs with, like, women being trafficked there, or at least, and they're having issues with people fleeing,

like refugees from Venezuela, guns coming into, I mean, it's a big problem on the islands. Yeah, yeah, we're going to get into some of that when we talk about the trend of Dead Aqua as well, because that's what their kind of cash cow is. So in short, even if you go by U.S. official sources, Venezuela plays a pretty small role in the cocaine trade. However, this doesn't stop the first Trump administration from bringing the alleged cartel of the Sons to the center of policy in March 2020 when it indicts Nicola Maduro, several of his officials and leaders of Colombia's fart for, quote, narco-terrorism, adding that, quote, the cartel of the Sons comprises high-ranking Venezuelan officials who abused the Venezuelan people and corrupted the legitimate institutions of

Venezuela, including parts of the military, intelligence apparatus, legislature, I can't even do English words now, and the judiciary, to facilitate the importation of tons of cocaine into United States, which I guess, you know, is not untrue. The State Department offers a $15 million reward for information leading to Maduro's arrest, which is kind of funny, and side note encourages a ton of U.S. mercenaries and like PTSD riddled military tough guys to go into Venezuela to attempt to grab Maduro. themselves, which then leads to a wave of hostage diplomacy and a bunch of other crazy stuff. But I'll save that for the magazine piece you can read out next spring. We'll probably do like a,

I don't know, like a bonus show on that as well when it comes out. Trump goes, in comes Joe Biden. Not a huge amount changes, except that the U.S. Coast Guard gets increasingly successful in stopping boats trying to ship cocaine through the Caribbean. In January 2024, in fact, a Coast Guard team deploys on a U.S. Coast Guard team deployers on a U.S. Navy ship and intercepts a vessel carrying almost 400 kilos of the drug, opening fire on its crew and killing one crew member. Roots from Venezuela into Trinidad, the Dominican Republic and other jurisdictions are firmly in the Coast Guard's crossheads, and things appear actually to be looking up. Yeah, the Trinidad thing is huge, man. Really big. Yeah. It's crazy. I think

when you see the quotes coming out of the Trinidad and Tobago government about all this, like they really despise Venezuela. I think even more than the current US administration. Yeah, they, I mean, they track a lot of the crime that's, that's, that's bumped up there from like guns coming in from Venezuela. Yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty chronic actually. And then we get Trump's return to office, right? And on July 25th, 2025, the US Treasury announces that it's sanctioning the cartel of the Suns as a quote, specially designated global terrorist organization. This is a list of around 7,700 people in groups. which allows immigration to bar entry to anybody supporting them, to freeze assets,

and it also signals an intent to go after the individuals or group by force. At the same time, the State Department raises the bounty on Nicola Maduro's head to $50 million. But here's the thing. Neither the DEA nor the UNODC has mentioned the cartel of the Sons as an actual cartel, like CJNG or the Gulf Cartel. In the DEA's case, between 2017 and 2025, it has mentioned the cartel of the Suns precisely zero times, and it has mentioned Venezuela over the same time period a total of 49 times in reports,

compared to 428 for Colombia and 592 times for Mexico. Now, as then, the Cartel of the Suns is a loose term. It means the corruption and collusion of Venezuelan military officials in the cocaine trade. Here is what one Venezuelan expert who I can't name out of fear of reprisals told me, quote, I cannot deny the fact that there are many members of the military and even civilian government in Venezuela who are involved in drug trafficking. But then to a certain extent you can say that it happens all over Latin America, especially countries like Colombia, Mexico, Ecuador. It is not such a unique thing. It basically just means military people involved in drug trafficking.

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I actually, you know, I should find a psychiatrist at the moment. I didn't realize they had psychiatrists on staff too. I'm actually probably going to go sign up for Rula right now. You guys should as well. The jurors sat in a dark room, hands resting on a Ouija board. They weren't guessing. They were asking the victim who killed them. Sounds unbelievable, right?

But it happened. And that's just one of thousands of stories waiting for you on Morning Cup of Murder. Hi, I'm Karina B. B. Dürfer. And every single day on Morning Cup of Murder, I bring you a real, chilling true crime story connected to that exact day in history. From Killer Cannibal Brothers, to the Boy Scout who was obsessed with the occult, and the strange story of the bloody hammer in the frozen cabin. These aren't the cases you've heard a hundred times. They're the ones that make you stop and think, how have I never heard this before? With over 2,500 episodes and a brand-new story each and every single day,

Morning Cup of Murder becomes part of your routine fast. If you like your coffee hot but your bones chilled, then sit back and start your day with a Morning Cup of Murder. Go listen to Morning Cup of Murder wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, stay safe. And here's Michael Pahlberg has been following this stuff for many, many years. No one claims that it is an actual cartel, as we understand the term, as in a unified criminal organization.

It is a form of journalistic shorthand to describe a phenomenon, which is real, which is corruption within the Venezuelan government and specifically the Venezuelan military. That has been well documented, including drug-related corruption. So insofar as it is useful as a term to describe this thing that involves multiple actors, and a network of sorts that makes, that creates a permissive environment for military and government officials to profit off the drug trade,

that is real. But the idea that it is a unified criminal organization with a single leader at the top, whether that is Maduro or his number two, Dios de al-Cabello, or anyone else, is not something that even the DEA or, you know, with the CIA or any other, any intelligence, you know, reports suggest. Yeah, I feel like that's kind of what I've always was told to.

Like it functions more as this group of corrupt officials who work together sometimes, different partnerships than like a unified cartel structure. So like, I guess like the actual definition of like a, like a cart, like not a cartel, but like kind of the actual definition of a cartel, you know, like the non-drug. It's basically just like short hand for you've got to pay the piper, right? Like if you're going through there, that's the guy with the keys to the trucks and the way out. So it's just corruption. It's just like huge, massive corruption, which I don't think it's controversial to say.

Venezuela is a pretty corrupt regime. No. This is all changing so quickly at this point that the US is now planning to designate the cartel of the suns. I think it's like yesterday I was reading this as I'm doing this show. So last week, I don't know if it's changed again at the time this comes out. But they're planning to designate the Cartel of the Suns, a foreign terrorist organization, which is a huge step up. And it crucially allows the US president to act against the group unilaterally without congressional approval.

And so Trump has sent his Secretary of Defense Pete Hesketh out to champion this in the media, as US military hardware gathers in the Caribbean. And Maduro, of course, is called the deserational. destination, ridiculous, and the cartel of the sun's, quote, non-existent. And by the way, I'm not saying all of this to suggest there's very little or no drug smuggling occurring out of Venezuela, far from it. Venezuelan officials are certainly involved in some of the darkest drug networks in the world.

Take, for example, the M.V. Matthew, which is a freighter intercepted off the coast of Cork, Ireland in late 2023. This ship is carrying more than two tons of cocaine, which Irish cops believe have been shipped by a super cartel comprising the Kinnahans, Colombia's Clan del Golfo, and Venezuelan-based Hezbollah operatives. Yes, Hezbollah. This bust pops up in Ed Caesar's excellent recent New Yorker piece on the Kinnahans, which we're featuring in an upcoming episode.

I'm going to interview Ed himself. Its crew have links to the Iranian regime, and one detective says the super cartel behind it have, quote, immense capabilities and, quote, unlimited resources. Now, Inside Crime has documented 123 Venezuelan military guys, both active and retired, who are involved in cocaine smuggling. But it adds, the cartel of the Sons has no defined command structure. And next comes the airstrike from today's cold open. Like I said, there's no doubt that the speedboat's origin, the tiny village of San Juan de Ornare, is part of an area of growing importance in the Latin American drug trafficking industry. It's in the state of Sukre, home to around 900,000 people, very far from Caracas and absolutely teeming with gangsters.

Now, Sukre, being largely the Paria Peninsula, is a big fishing hub. But since 2015, Venezuela has been in the grips of a massive, I mean massive economic crisis, which combined with the repression of the Maduro regime, has forced 8 million people out of Venezuela. That's almost a third of its entire population, one of the biggest migrant crises on the planet. Fishing revenues have dwindled and whatever tourists braved it out to Sucre years ago have pretty much disappeared today. So fishermen and boat pilots have been co-opted by criminals, either catering to the explosion in people getting desperate to go out of Venezuela or attempts to command drug routes into Caribbean islands like Trinidad and onwards.

In February 2025, Venezuela have been in February 2020, Venezuelan officials seize almost 800 kilos of cocaine in a single operation in Sucre. For years, it's been common for locals to trade in euros, such has been the prevalence of drug smuggling from the region into Europe. The US, like we said, plays a relatively minor role in this trafficking, and Sucre definitely is not a source of fentanyl, as the White House alleged. Here's Michael Pahlberg again. So in terms of the drug itself, Fetanyl famously does not come from Fentanyl, Venezuela does not come from Colombia. It's a synthetic drug.

It primarily, the Femdala makes it to the U.S. primarily goes through Mexico, but is made with precursor chemicals coming from China. Increasingly, it's just being made in the United States itself because it's an entirely synthetic drug. You don't need to traffic it. Probably if you make it more deadly to traffic drugs through ocean corridors, then they'll move those corridors to land, but then eventually it'll probably. just lead people to just make it more in the U.S.

In terms of the cocaine, so currently the cocaine market in the U.S. is shrinking. Cocaine use has been dropping in the U.S. in comparison to opiates like Faginol, and where the cocaine market is blooming is Europe and to a slightly lesser extent to Asia. And so that's why we're seeing these changes in terms of smuggling routes. So more, most of it doesn't go through the cruise. anymore, it goes through the Pacific. And that both goes to the U.S., but also

it'll go to China. It will go through the Padma Canal to Europe. And that's one reason why the explosion of violence in Ecuador over control of these Pacific smuggling routes. And in terms of Venezuela,

the last DEA estimate, which was from a while ago, was that about 8% of the cocaine flows to the United States, at least, goes through the Venezuelan corridor or say the eastern Caribbean. So it's a relatively minor corridor. There is a cocaine corridor that also goes to Europe that is through Venezuela. So it typically comes from Colombia or from Peru or Bolivia, but primarily from Colombia. And then it will go by water. Typical route will be to the Dominican Republic.

From there, they can put them on go-fast boats to Puerto Rico, and from there it's easier to smuggle it into the mainland U.S. But there's also routes through Trinidad and other way stations that eventually get the cocaine to Europe, where it fetches a much higher price the further into Europe you get. So if they're blowing up boats in the Eastern Caribbean that are actually smuggling cocaine, it isn't certain that they're even going to the United States at all. It's also not certain that they're necessarily Venezuela only could be Dominican. There could be any number of different small groups that are part of this supply chain of drug shipments. I mean, if they are Trindade Agua, they're more likely to be smuggling migrants than drugs, just because there hasn't been any intelligence to show that Trindadehagua is engaging in large-scale, you know, trans-oceanic drug trafficking.

Sucra's importance to the underworld seemed to have ramped up in 2020, and that's when a group called the Tren del Jano relocates from a state just south of Caracas to the town of San Juan de launas, on the Paria Peninsula, not far from San Juan Dillanari. Now, the Tren del Jano is a gang that has emerged in 2008. It's cobbled together from union workers who abandon lobbying to steal cars before looking to move into more lucrative criminal sectors. Having relocated to Sukre in 2020, they make a massive move by stealing a consignment of cocaine linked to members of the Venezuelan military, which is just, it's got to be the biggest mistake you can make. The military, unsurprisingly, goes berserk at this. In November 2021, 500 soldiers are dispatched to Sukre. They kill 18 members of the Tren del Jano, including its leader. yet a month later the group posts the social media.

The Tren del Gano is not dead, they say. It is alive and still standing. The post adds that the group is still up and running in Sukri. I mean, what's the phrase? Instagram your crimes once fall on you. Instagram your crimes twice. Big a fall on you, that it? I don't know.

Anyway, if you shouldn't Instagram your crimes, you should definitely not be Instagramming yourself taunting one of the world's most corrupt armies. In April 2022, the group then films itself, I don't, why, extorting a bunch of farmers, after which the military sends in 800 men and tanks, which doesn't matter how much of a clan of ex-prisoned cartel tough guys you are, you are not winning that fight. A load more trender journal members are killed, and a month after that, the group falls into deeper chaos when its leader is murdered by his own men.

The group definitely still exists today, but it's pretty much a spent force, and certainly no match for its much better-known rival, the Tren de Aragua. We did a pretty comprehensive show about a Tren de Ragua back in September 2024, so if you want the full rundown, head back and have a listen there. But here are the highlights. The Tren de Ragua, as the name suggests, comes out of the central state of Aragua, near Caracas, in 2005, when a 22-year-old named Hexas'clock, Rastonford Guerrero Flores, Ruston, that's nuts name, a.k.a. Niño Guerrero, murders a police officer. By 2010, he has moved to Tokoron, one of Venezuela's biggest prisons. He escapes, gets recaptured, and in 2013, he thinks, all right, why don't I just set up a gang right here behind bars?

2013, of course, is the year Hugo Chavez dies, but it's also in the middle of a period of experimental, quote, peace zones across Venezuela, which are effectively versions of Hampsteadam from the wire, where cops agreed to suspend all operations in these particular gang infested zones, so long as the gang's pinky promise not to kill each other or sling drugs. Bonkers and just another example of that lack of state capacity. Here is an amazing insight crying, quote. quote, remarkably, the gangs managed to get away with crimes committed outside the peace zones, since police chasing them would often turn back as soon as they got near the border. If security forces did venture inside the peace zones in search of suspects, they were frequently called back by their superiors. Sounds like a great policy. By 2018, the train is cemented its control of the Venezuelan underworld for an official system of Pranis,

or prison bosses, implemented by wardens who've completely lost control. control. Niño Guerrero, decks out Tokaron with a zoo, swimming pool, playground, restaurant, and a nightclub. I mean, first off, Niño Guerrero is a fantastic game leader name in general. Did we get any like influencers going there to hang out in these jails or was that before the, before the run? Unfortunately, we might have been too late on that. But I mean, I'm here. I'll do it. Yeah, that would make a really, really good story. The group continually tries to get into the drug trade, but it gets batted back by Mexican and Brazilian cartels,

plus the Colombian guerrillas. But this is right in the middle of one of the biggest exodus of modern times, 8 million people, almost a third of the population, seeking a life away from refreshing and violent. It's kind of almost unfathomable how many people have left Venezuela. It's not really... It's not really a sign of a thriving government. So the Tren de Aragua switches its focus to people smuggling,

and it makes a lot of money doing so. And like we got into in last year's show about the gang, it is definitely present in the United States, it is definitely trafficking women into sex slavery, and is definitely getting into the drug trade. Here is Phil Gunson of the International Crisis Group to explain a little more. Tren de Aragua is a real criminal organization, goes back 10 years or more in Venezuela.

And there have been links, yes, between the government and the Tren Darawa, not in the sense that Mandura is the head of it or that the government tells you what to do, but that, you know, it's been useful to the government at some points to have them on side rather than fighting them. This February, the US government declared the Tren de Aragua a foreign terror organization. which isn't actually that outlandish, right? Many of Latin America's most notorious gangs are on the list, too. And there is some evidence that the group has been used to bump off anti-Maduro figures.

A large contingent of Tenendaragua goons has pitched up in Santiago, Chile, for example. And in March 2024, they are believed to have murdered exiled Venezuelan pro-democracy activist Ronald Orida in the city and burying his body beneath a building on the edge of town. You know, there's definitely an episode to be done. I think David Patriarchus has done some good work on this too, but all these stories now of like, I guess it's been going on forever, but it just seems like there's a lot more recently of like states using street gangs essentially to kill off dissidents or do what could be considered sort of like political acts, you know? Yeah, I'm doing like that. I'm doing those episodes on like Sweden's gangs and like the Iranians were using them. India. We did a show recently, right?

With the spies, we used gangs to bump off like seat separatists and stuff like that. fairly, fairly common. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it definitely seems in that example, at least, that like, some Venezuelan officials were kind of dispatching these bad guys to do some really bad shit. But like Phil Gunson just said, the idea that Maduro actually leads the group, that is, that's clearly a nonsense, right? Both the CIA and NSA have denied this too. And it seems more as if the designation allows the Trump administration to better justify it and speed up the deportation of Venezuelan migrants, which actually,

it's been done by invoking this alien enemies act of 1798, which itself was created in anticipation of a war with the French. It's a shame that that never happened. Oh, buddy, there's still time. There is. There is. Come get me plea.

I can football. Anyway, what's probably closer to the truth is that the Tren de Aragua has pushed its competition out of key transshipment points like Sukre, thanks in part to its own ruthlessness, and in part to fights between other groups like the Tren del Janel and the military. So Insight Crime recently visited the region,

including San Juan del Nari, and has found that the trend at Aragua still partly governs the area. Quote, residents told Insight Crime, the group, rather, imposes justice, discouraging robberies, ordering young people to paint public buildings and clean markets, and even monitoring shops to prevent price gouging amid Venezuela's renewed inflation. The thief holds back from stealing. The crackhead prefers to beg, a resident said. That sounds like some sort of ancient Chinese proverb or maybe like a campaign slogan. If I'm elected, the thief will hold back from stealing and the crackhead will prefer to beg. It's not, it's kind of catchy. It's very catchy and the kind of thing that I'm sure if I submitted that to an editor, they'd be like,

let's just hear that audio file. Anyway, could the boat blown up on September 1st from the cold open have been piloted by Tren de Aragua gangsters. Maybe. Of course it could. But if so, that would make it far likely that the crew was ferrying people than drugs. After all, if you were loading a boat with high-value cocaine, why would you also have almost a dozen people on board? It doesn't check out.

Anyway, here's Phil Gunson again. It doesn't make any sense from what we know of how the drugs are transported and what the kind of setup is usually on these fast boats that have these four powerful outward motors. And they travel relatively short distances because, of course, they need refueling quite frequently. So what generally happens is you have two or maybe three people on board, which is the people that you need to manage the boat.

And you don't want anybody else on. You don't want anybody else involved, really. There's no real needs. So why were there 11 people on that boat? Now, what seems to be the case is that the rest of the people on the boat were probably migrants. you know, there's a very thriving, or there was at least before all this, there was a thriving traffic in, you know, people smuggling between the Venezuelan coast

and places like Trinidad and also the offshore islands like, you know, the Dutch islands, the Dutch Antilles, Kourasang Aruba, Bonner, but Kourdesangar, primarily. And so it seems entirely plausible that this was about smuggling migrants. not smuggling drugs at all and certainly not smuggling fentanyl. I mean, if the US has any evidence that fentanyl is being smuggled from Venezuela, it would be a first. I'm not going to litigate the legality of these strikes like that. Actually seems incredibly straightforward, but it also strays into territory we would prefer to avoid. The New York Times has interviewed the family of one guy hit on a strike in September 15 from the city of Santa Marte in Colombia, very nice place,

who've hired a US lawyer to prepare a claim. Good story. It's on the reading list for Patreon's. There's a ton of interesting pieces that I've read for this. The Tren de Agua are definitely a growing force. They're incredibly violent. They're venal. They are very bad guys. But are they major drug traffickers? Definitely not. And are they led by the Venezuelan state? Again, no, I'm going to close out today's episode with some more economic palace intrigue stuff about why the White House is doing this and why now. Because this is important stuff. And please, if you feel like commenting on this bit, just don't, right? Just listen to the show and then don't comment.

Firstly, what's really important to understand is that there's a big split in the Trump administration over Venezuela. I mean, you can read this stuff in the news, guys, like it's out there. On one side you have Marco Rubio, who partly because of his Cuban-American background, is more this neocon, anti-communist kind of guy, is at least on surface level a desire to deliver Venezuela from the ills of socialism with him, regime change, pretty old school stuff. And then there's a guy named Richard Grennell. I don't know how well-known he is in the States.

Like, is he always on the news? People know his name. People know his name. Okay. People pay attention. Yeah, he's a longtime Republican official. He was a PR guy. He actually campaigned for Victor Orban.

Trump nominated him as ambassador to Germany in 2018, where I came across him and let's just say, from my sources, he had a combative approach to diplomacy, which isn't that bad in Germany. Sometimes the Germans need to stick up their ass. In 2019, Grenel gets appointed a special envoy for Kosovo and Serbia peace talks. And by 2020, he's the acting director of national intelligence. I think everything you hear about him is like he's kind of like insanely career oriented. When Trump comes back, Grenel hopes to be the Secretary of State, but loses out to Rubio, but instead Trump names Grenel as his envoy for special missions,

which is a blank slate. It's a job title that doesn't really mean anything on paper, but what it does mean is that Grenel is Trump's attack dog around the world, from getting Andrew Tate out of prison, yeah, really, to allegedly negotiating with Russia on gas pipelines, and it also involved trips to Caracas to be Trump's line of communication with the Maduro regime. Grenel has advocated for flights returning Venezuelan migrants home from the US, which he's been pretty successful in, actually, in return for hostages in Venezuela. Venezuela, but crucially, he's also secured a carve-out for the US oil giant Chevron from

Venezuelan oil sanctions. Now, I'm not going to go too deep into all this stuff. You can listen to the daily or something, I don't know. But here's the basics. Venezuela has the world's largest proven oil reserves, significantly bigger even than Saudi Arabia, but it's not being tapped because of instability, corruption, and a ton of other stuff besides. So I think one thing about that is that Venezuela does have that, but their oil is like, really crummy oil, right? It's like super heavy or extra heavy, which even during stable times,

it's like expensive to extract and expensive to refine. So you can't really compare it to the the Saudis have like what light, sweet crude, which is just like, it's like the gold standard of oil where the Venezuelans have just like pretty shitty oil when it comes down to it. So they have a lot, but it's actually pretty expensive to deal with. That is true. However, when people are looking for alternative logistics for oil, it's like really, really attractive because they don't do it offshore. It's all onshore, so it's like just under the ground,

which makes it way cheaper. So I think a bunch of companies have been trying to get into Guyana, but it's all offshore, and it costs tons of money more to dig it out, basically. That's from what I understand. Well, that's another, like the Guyana Venezuela beef over that oil. Oh, yeah. That's super interesting.

Yeah. Chevron and ExxonMobil won in. Grenel is Chevron's guy. ExxonMobil has backed. Rubio. But doesn't is doesn't Chevron, I'm pretty sure Chevron already gets Venezuelan oil. Like that's why I mean, I think we disagree on this, but I think that part of it is that like, Chevron's already getting Venezuelan oil at like a pretty steep discount. Like they've already had that sort of cut out for them there that allows them to sort of break whatever

boycott or sanctions there are on, on Venezuela. They have, yeah. And a bunch of other companies are also in. Venezuela, I think any Repsol. There's tons. There's loads of companies there. I think the important thing is that Exxon is not, right? And I think Exxon piled a bunch of money into Guyana. So there's kind of like this oil company proxy war.

I'm not saying it's like the old days, you know, where they're going in and like building railroads and kind of... Well, I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, Grenel and Rubio are back to use some railroads. Yeah, they could use some railroads, actually. Get a couple roads in there, get up paved. Yeah. The Chinese used it in like all over Africa.

They just built roads and used it to extract all the routes. I'm just saying Venezuela could use some roads. Pretty well for China. Yeah. Yeah. Grenold's diplomacy not only seems to win concession for Chevron, but he looks like he's winning the White House battle against Rubio at some point. And then Rubio just goes all in, right?

And he sells the idea of drug trafficking as a reason to strike Venezuela. And Trump likes it. Here is one DC insider I interviewed recently. Again, no names. This stuff is all pretty crazy, palace intrigue stuff. Like I said, quote, anybody who knows the region will know that narco-terrorist designation was at best thing. And if you know the details of it, it's just bullshit. But yeah, Rubio was able to get Trump from saying, I just want the oil to saying, yeah, okay, get rid of the guy and give me the oil.

See, yeah, I disagree that I think oil is the main motivation for this for someone like Rubio. I think obviously the alignment might end up like he's aligned with Exxon right Exxon wants in and whatever and I'm sure you know you convince Trump that there's resources to get but like I think Rubio sees this he's a tried and true like a true believer in anti-communism right he's a Miami-Cubin you know I kill communis for fun I don't know why my scarface accent is Russian is even though yeah even though Pacino's wasn't even like Cuban it was just a weird amalgamation of like Dominican and something else.

The point is that like, you know, I, I, it's Transylvanian, my, my, communist for fun.

But the point is that like, like, you know, I think Rubio is motivated by, one, just knocking out the regime in, in Cuba for ideological, and in,

well, and Venezuela for ideological reasons. And I think he also sees this as a step to knocking out Cuba, right? Because Venezuela gives a lot of support to Cuba. So this is like, you know,

it's cold, war domino theory essentially, but the opposite, I guess. But like, I think he is motivated. I think he doesn't care. I honestly don't think he cares about the oil. I think he cares about just getting rid of communists. And I also think that, like, maybe you hoodwink Trump with, obviously the, the, the, narco-terrorist designation really doesn't make that much sense. That's obviously not the main motivation. But I think that, like oil, like this is, like we said, it's bad heavy oil. You don't invade a country and overthrow regime when you can already get barrels for under $50, which is what Chevron gets.

Like it just doesn't, obviously I don't buy the drug narrative, but I also don't buy the oil narrative. I think it is just like, Rubio Hay's communist, man. It's a Miami Cuban. Like those guys, they want out, they want, they want cube out. And I think that the oil, like, is just, if you're talking about how much it would actually cost to do like a full-scale invasion and whatever else goes afterwards, that the oil, the air, it just like the profits won't be worth it. They'll lose money on it. You know, it's kind of like, obviously, oil for Iraq, that sort of motivation made more sense. But even that made no sense because when it came down to it, I think the Chinese and French got just as messed contracts, maybe more than the U.S. day when it came to Iraq's oil. Like, I think the ideological reasons for this are much more so than the sort of like mercantile, mercenary money reasons.

Mercenary using in the sense of like after money, not after not like the other sense of mercenary. You know what I mean. I don't actually think we're disagreeing that much because I think I agree with you that Rubio is like the anti-comy guy. I think he's just selling this line to get what he wants, right? He's just selling the drug line to get Trump. What he wants is just a deal, right? Trump just wants a deal for something that he could say he got, you know, and he can't get Greenland and he can't. I don't know what he's trying to get over Ukraine. Do you guys like this political discussion?

Should we just do this? Dude, Trump would just be like, dude, we. You know the amount of pitchers we get for the Yankees from Venezuela if we go in there? That's what you're going to tell Trump. We will have the best baseball team in baseball. You know, that would be, genuinely, that would be one of the best ways to do a feature about Venezuela is to go in with like a scout and do like a story about the whole country, but just through scouting for pitchers. It would be incredible.

I got to assume if you're a great baseball player in Venezuela, you've already escaped and made the trip. No? Do you think there's still great baseball player? I mean, there's got to be a 16-year-old. or some shit. Yeah, I don't know. But I'm just saying to editors, I will be in Latin America next year and I do like baseball. So, you know, I know a guy in Sports Illustrated that I did that article about the Big Poppy Ortiz attempted assassination. I'll make it happen for you. I'll introduce you. Cool. All right. Let's do it. Yeah. Sorry. Continue. Yeah, anyway. If you want to know

more about this, there's a great piece of the Washington Post about the Rubio-Grenel split. and there's a story from El Paix about Chevron versus Exxon mobile in Venezuela, again, both on the reading list, which you can get for just a couple of bucks a month. But while this is the kind of stuff we don't normally feature on the show, it's incredibly relevant, right, because it is the palace struggle leading policy about Venezuela, and it's itself being led by drug trafficking, either by corrupt Venezuelan officials or the Tren de Aragua, which is all pretty crazy. So my final point in all of this is that the Council of Narcotics angle,

pushed by new Rubio is actually pretty inspired, right? Because while it's patently untrue that the cartel of the sons is a real cartel or that these groups are shipping anything other than cocaine, the actual number of OD deaths in the US is going down year on year, partly because of drug seizures and partly because of increased education about fentanyl, a greater presence of anti-OD drugs like Narcan across the board in American cities. So even if this narrative falls apart, Trump can say, hey, I stopped all these boats and fend deaths are down. So it's kind of a darkly genius way to approach the issue. So, Sean, what you're saying is that we've won the war on drugs and drugs lost. Yeah, yeah, drugs. We can conclusively say that for the first time on this show.

Anyway, so yeah, I hope that was useful, guys. It was a bit of everything thrown in today, and I will have a more conventional crime story next time. In the meantime, don't be like the trend of the journal, don't Instagram your crimes, and thank you for listening. And yeah, seriously, guys, let us know if you want those bonus episodes that are more like, you know, we do interviews now with journalists, but if you want, if you think that's something like 20 minutes extra on every episode, or most episodes, would be the kind of thing that would convince you to sign up for Patreon. Let us know.

If not, also let us know. Sean shirtless, let us know. And for all your holiday needs, underworldpod.com merch, code underworld. Underworld. Yeah, do it. For 20% off all those. glorious goods.