The Underworld Podcast - World's Most Dangerous Mobster: The Russian Mafiya Godfather

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

They say Semion Mogilevich is the most powerful gangster on the planet, the mastermind who rewrote the playbook for organized crime worldwide. Boss of bosses in the Russian Mafiya, with a hand in everything from trafficking nuclear material, arms dealing, narcotics trafficking, massive prostitution rings, multiple billion dollar frauds, hundreds of murders, controlling the gas and oil industry in entire countries and even art fraud. He's allegedly the closest thing there is to Keyser Soze...but is he REALLY who they say he is? We go deep on what's fact and fiction about a man wanted in half a dozen countries for pretty much every organized crime imaginable. DON'T FORGET TO BUY ASSET!!!: https://www.thatasset.com/underworld Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The most powerful Russian mobsters in the world are having a meeting in a Japanese restaurant called the Dove, no doubt, serving terrible sushi. It's a gathering of 150 or so men and 50 or so. prostitutes, a banquet of sorts, a celebration for the birthday of the deputy boss of the Sultanev Skaia-Brotfo, one of the largest criminal organizations in the world. It's also the heyday of the emergence of the Russian mobster, or more accurately, mobsters from former Soviet states. The Soviet Union has fallen and organized crime has taken over in the power vacuum, gobbling up billions of dollars and leaving thousands of dead bodies in wake. Law enforcement agencies around the world are taking note. See, these mobsters are expanding

outward at a furious pace, tying in Western businesses and banks, solidifying their control in countries like Hungary, Ukraine, and the Czech Republic. By 1995, Prague is a haven for Russian maviosos. Fresh off-winning brutal street wars over control of the gas and oil rackets in Eastern Europe worth billions of dollars. The police in Prague know this, and there are a lot of. And they're on their guard. So when they get a tip-off about this massive Russian mafia dinner, they act. In the middle of the dinner, while a singer is performing, commandos were held down from the ceiling and rushed the doors, heavily armed, kidded out, expecting a bloodbath. Fifty elite cops are there in total, guns drawn. At first, the Russian gangsters think it's a part of the show, a practical joke.

But they soon realize it's definitely not as they're handcuffed and lined up against the wall. Eventually, the commandos let them go, and no one is even arrested, though a number of the top guys are known and declared persona non grata, banned from the Czech Republic. But there's one man who is conspicuously absent. According to Somi, he's actually the guest of honor. But the tip-off that the Czech police receive weeks earlier actually says he's supposed to be killed at this dinner. Over a $5 million payment he owed the boss of the brothel, despite him working in tandem with them for years,

helping them set up all their money laundering operations. Semy and Mogulavich, who would later be described by everyone from FBI top officials to reporters to other Russian mafiosos as the most powerful gangster in the world had turned up to the party late and missed the raid. He later tells an interviewer, quote, By the time I arrived at the restaurant,

everything was already in full swing. So I went to a neighboring hotel and sat in the bar there until about five or six in the morning. According to Misha Glennie, the author of McMafia, he was also the source of the tip. Mogulavich, they say,

is always one step ahead. That's why they call him the brainy dom, that and his economics degree. Depending on who you believe, he's behind or involved in everything from arms manufacturing and dealing to wide-scale prostitution networks, nuclear material traffing,

controlling of entire country's gas and fuel operations, art and gem fraud, narcotics trafficking, billion dollar stock and tax scams, and hundreds of ordered killings. The boss of bosses in the Russian mob, they call him. Wanted by half a dozen or more countries, hunted by the FBI, among others. Forget about controlling a neighborhood or even a city. This guy controls entire industries. It's a criminal empire that stretches across the world, the closest thing to a real-life Kaiser-Souzay out there. CNN calls him the most powerful man you've never heard of.

says an FBI special agent, quote, he has access to so much, including funding, including other criminal organizations, that he can, with a telephone call and order, affect the global economy. But is he really who they say he is? Or is he just a bogeyman of sorts? Something top law enforcement officials tell their underlies to motivate them.

Weeks after the raid, Mogulavich will arrange a secret meeting with the Czech detectives responsible for, just across the border in Austria. He'll ask them to rescind his banning from the country. They'll decline, and shortly after, their lives will be upended when they're arrested and imprisoned on trumped-up charges. Mogilevic's power reaches the highest levels, it's alleged. So high, they include Vladimir Putin.

This is the Underworld Podcast. Welcome back to the Underworld Podcast, an audio program that delves into the murky world of international organized crime, past, present, and future, hosted by two journalists who have reported on this sort of thing all over the world. My name is Danny Gold. I trade off hosting duties every other week with my co-host, Sean Williams, right here. Yeah, hey guys. Are you in Vietnam yet? No, no.

As we're recording this, it's like, what, four or five days. But I think when this comes out, I'm going to be flying to Vietnam. So just for a week just to do some reporting. But that's going to be fun. Yeah, we still do this. At least Sean does. Every now. I mostly don't because it's not worth it, unless Larry Ellison,

hollers at me. Well, I mean, we're going to find out in this episode that you did. As always, you can sign up for our bonus episodes at patreon.com, slash an underworld podcast or right here on Spotify or on iTunes. We're averaging like one bonus a week these days. So that's a good deal. Email us tips at the underworldpodcast.gumel.com. And you can buy our merch at underworldpod.com. Now, this episode is a long one. It's a little confusing with a lot going on. So let's get right into it.

So Samuel and Mogulavich, the boss of bosses, tops the Russian mafia, which if you listen to this show before, you know, isn't actually a thing because the Russian mafia isn't hierarchical like that. It's a collection of different organizations, some of which don't even have proper leaders where people team up with whoever has the plan. Of course, there are groups and criminal organizations like the one we talked about in the Cold Open, Sonap Skaia, or the Semyon-Mogalovich organization, and I'm told by someone in the know who has interactions with people that do actually know him, everything is sort of decided by a counterfeit. council in these big organizations, but still take it to mean that the most powerful gang boss

involved in former Soviet states organized crime is this guy. So there's only two degrees of separation between you and Modelavich. So that's, I mean, that's pretty impressive, you know? You got your contacts on the inside telling you stuff about the Russian mafia. Not many podcasts are doing that. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll talk about him a little bit later on.

I've mentioned him on the show before, but he's a, he's a guy who knows things. And so yeah, there's a bit of a preamble here. but I think it's important to telling the story because there's so much conflicting data out there on him and there's so much kind of lore. So when I personally see the stuff about him, you know, most powerful guy ever and whatnot, and knowing how media and the authorities love to throw around

superlatives like that to catch attention, I'm initially skeptical. I did read his entire FBI file, at least the dossay that was compiled with law enforcement from Russia, Germany, and Italy, I think in the mid-90s, which is full of all sorts of insane stuff. But again, you know, it's an FBI file. file, it's full of unverified info, rumors, stuff overheard like in a bar.

I actually did ask the aforementioned guy in the know who does have serious connections to that world where what the story is with Mogulavich. In fact, he's the one who actually set it up so I could meet the Brighton Beach infamous Russian mafioso, Boris Neffield, who we've done a full episode on. And I've talked about before, he's sort of an infamous known guy. And if anyone follows our underworlded Instagram, they've seen the pick with me and him. Nice guy, but this is the guy you set that up. So he does actually know people in that world. And my friend from what he said, the boss of boss of things, it's kind of silly, but Mogulavich is for real.

Like he is that high up, though these days he's mostly just selling arms, maybe some narcotics. He's pretty much out of everything else. Also, he's lost a lot of weight. So congrats to him on that. For those who haven't seen a picture of him, you should look him up. He's about five foot five and used to weigh 300 pounds, you know, used to dress the part for sure, shiny leather jacket, suits, and he's constantly smoking cigarettes. But these days apparently unrecognizable, and maybe not in Russia. But we'll get that later. But yeah, he is the real deal. Yeah, you hanging out with Brighton Beach gangsters is pretty cool, man. And a nice time to remind new listeners that we're actually journalists who do, do journalist things. And like, all journalists generally despise the media industry and enjoy nothing more to meet another journalist in bars and shitting on

journalism. So yeah, that's the fun life we lead. That's true. And that being said, it does not mean that things are not exaggerated or recklessly spun by both law enforcement and media and organized criminals themselves. You know, we talk a lot about lore here. I probably bring it up way too much, but that's because

we, like me and Sean, single-handedly need to make up for all the sensationalist nonsense out there. Do we take liberties with superlives in the titles of our episode sometimes? We do. But this is an interesting one. And it's because where else do you find a guy who is so commonly said to be the most powerful gangster or criminal in the world. Maybe Chapo, right, or El Mio, but except for who else, Sean? Who are the real criminals? Maybe some of the guys out in the Golden Triangle that we've done stuff on. Yeah.

And those crooks in Congress. Am I right? Yeah, okay. We need a little belted thing every time we do that now. But people do lie, and we'll talk a bit more about the sources I used. Like the old FBI file, there's an incredible BBC Panorama interview with the man himself, a massive article by the author of Red Mafia, and maybe you've seen that Netflix doc series. It's the world's most wanted. It I think was really popular during the pandemic. They did do an episode on Mogulavich. The guy says they got a lot of things wrong, but I did notice something kind of interesting in it, like right in the beginning, some selective editing.

There's that incredible BBC documentary done in 1999 where Mogulavich agrees to be interviewed on camera, and it's remarkable. and I'll get into it a bit more later. But in the opening scene of the BBC Panorama interview, the reporter is holding these little figures of mafia dolls sold in the shops in Moscow when he says, and his amazing posh British accent, quote, Russia, birthplace of Dostoevsky and Tolstoy,

of the SARS of Lenin and Stalin, of revolution and huge political ideas, has found itself a new icon, the mobster. Note, if you will, the gold rings around the finger, the gold chain around the neck, on and on, he keeps going. The Netflix doc uses some of this interview and completely changes the quote so it says, Russia, birthplace of Dostoevsky and Tolstoy, of the SARS of Lenin and Stalin, of revolution

and huge political ideas. It's found itself a new icon. And then they just edit in a separate clip from the reporter saying the name Samian Mogulavich so they make it seem like the reporter is saying Mogulavich is the new icon, which is just completely made up, right? The point is never trust these well-produced but sloppy Netflix documentaries. Only trust us. Only trust us.

Yeah, that is really awful. I've been reading a bunch of Russian literature last past couple of weeks. For reasons that are going to be clear in a couple months, I know I've said this before, but no wonder this country bred, something like the meanest gangsters on the planet, if I've grown up reading that stuff every day, I'd have,

I'd have picked up a knife, man. It's pretty grim. I like the assumption you're making that these guys in track suits and chains are reading Dostoevsky in Tolstoy when they're growing up. Would they have done that? I guess, you know, in school? I mean, maybe the oligarchs and someone like Mogulavich with an economics degree, but I don't think the average enforcer on the streets is well-schooled and Doste-Eafi.

I could be wrong. I could be wrong. That could be the case. Yeah. Don't email us that either. We'll just assume. Yeah. But speaking of Russian mobsters themselves saying this stuff about the man, there's three

examples I found. One is Monia Elson, who we've talked about before. He was at one point the top Russian. mobster in Brooklyn. He actually fought a war with our friend Boris Neufeld. When he was locked up awaiting trial for three murders in New York, he told a reporter, quote, he is the most powerful mobster in the world. If I tell on Mogulevich, Interpol will give me $20 million. I lived with him. I'm his partner. Don't forget. We are very, very close friends. I don't mean close. I mean very, very close. He's my best friend. Are they close? I think they're boys, dude. And like, I don't know.

Bros do like to hype up their best friends, right? Sometimes maybe exaggerate a little on how well they're doing and how great a guy they are to ladies at the bar. Could be a thing Russian mobsters do about their buddy to reporters to make him seem like he's the top dog. No? Maybe. Yeah.

Yeah, possibly. I think it's feasible. Yeah. Another Russian mobster who fought in the Brighton wards is this guy, Leonid Reitman, who did time for attempted murder and is rumored to be involved in many, many other murders. He's on record saying Mogulavich ordered hundreds of murders. And there's actually a fascinating YouTube interview with him for this Russian show in New York.

I translated where he goes through his whole trajectory. It's really something. That same Russian show just published an interview with Nefeldt that went up like a week ago. I haven't watched it yet, but I heard it's incredible. And there's also a Hungarian gangster known as Big Tom, who met his end with a car bomb in Budapest. In a secretly recorded interview with police in the mid-90s, he tells them Mogulavich was the main conduit for the Russian mob in Budapest then, when things were really wild and competing mafiosos and gangster businessman

were fighting these brutal wars over entire industries. Yeah, Big Tom, we found his end at the end of a car bomb, sounds like a David Bowie. But yeah, shout out to our show from like three years ago about the brutal gang wars that took over the Russian auto manufacturing city of Toilieti.

I was actually going to get sent out there off the back of that when I was living in Berlin, but I got it got next, thanks to pesky old Putin invading Ukraine. That's pretty rude. But it's a really interesting show. I don't think there's much out about it. Yeah, there's a couple of episodes we've done on Russian mafia stuff.

That's one. We did one on a super killer guy, Alexander Sokolnik, I think, or Solonic. Yeah. We've done two on the Brighton Beach Mob Wars in America, in New York. That was really early on. And I think I did one on Boris Nafel themselves, too, his whole story. Yeah, that was amazing. So definitely go back to the catalog if this is a subject that interviews you and it's your first time,

that interests you, and it's your first time hearing us. But let's rewind to 1946 in Ukraine when Semio and Mogilevich is born. Not much is known about his childhood, the one source says his parents were well to do, which I think like in the 1950s in that part of the world, just meant they had enough food to eat every day and indoor plumbing, you know? It's a tough time in Ukraine post-World War II, especially for Jews like Mogulavich, but he's sharp and he's a hustler. He gets an economics degree from Lavav University,

but like Jews in the Soviet Union during that era, it's likely he was prevented from getting a good job because of his religion. With many state career ladders blocked, ambitious or entrepreneurial Jews sometimes gravitated towards the informal economy, sort of black market trade and semi-legal hustles where the state's control was weaker, and it was kind of their only option. Mogulavich in his late 20s, so this is like the mid-1970s, I think, is then twice jailed for so-called currency violations.

Once for 18 months, for what he says is buying a gold coin for a girlfriend, and another time for four years for what he says is helping a friend who was emigrating trying to smuggle out $2,500. A source says he makes some friends and the gulags that would later come in handy, but this kind of seems made up, in my opinion,

like we don't really hear much about that from anywhere else. Not too much else is known about his life during this period. He does run a successful funeral arrangement business, which is a funny job to have for a mafioso. And he also makes money on Soviet Jews fleeing the country,

but how exactly is disputed? And it's like two completely different stories. So in the 70s and 80s, international pressure forces the Soviet Union to relax its emigration restrictions and allow persecuted Jews to leave. Many go to the U.S., some go to Israel, some actually pass through Italy. And when they're fleeing, they're only allowed to bring a small amount of money and items. The Soviets, they take everything else. There's no Bitcoin back then, right? You can't just hide your funds.

So one source says Mogulavich was able to, for a fee, help these people fleeing the country, smuggle out more of their own. own money than they were permitted. But another source says he actually conned them, promising them that if they left their goods with him, he would sell the stuff for them and then send them some of the profits. And the thing about that source is, it's this guy who was a legendary sort of 90s. I think he wrote a lot for the village voice reporter named Robert Freeman. He wrote a huge article in Mogulavich in 1998 called The Most Dangerous Mobster in the World that everyone cites 20 years later even.

I've talked about him before in other episodes. he was kind of the go-to guy on the Russian mob in the 90s. He wrote a book called The Red Mafia. He did all the stuff on the NHL point-shaving Russian mob stuff, which is I think another episode we did. And I have some issues with his reporting. I don't trust all of it. I feel like he seems to sensationalize.

He makes giant leaps of evidence and depends on sources that are less than trustworthy. Yeah, I guess it's so tempting to take gangsters and criminals at their word when, like you say, much of it is like posturing or hot air or just saying whatever it makes you look and your enemies look bad. I mean, these guys, they're not, they're not saints. So you've got to, you've got to back up what they say. I think, too, law enforcement as well tends to exaggerate stuff like this, which I think is where a lot of his sources were anonymous sort of quotes from intel officials or police or something like that. And you see there is contra-drinking info.

There's a lot of contra-dinking info on Mogulavage. And he's allegedly involved in so many different things. It's hard to keep track of it or do anything in, like, chronological order. So writing this kind of gave me a headache. And I know, It's annoying to have this preamble, but it's all over the place, so forgive me. So is Mogulavich. He does make some new friends, though, after his prison terms. And one of those friends is Sergei Mikhailov, or Mikhailov, who he says he meets in a gymnasium in 1982. However it's done, however they meet, Mikhailov is a good person to know, because he's actually the founder and leader of the Solitzkya organization, said to be the most powerful Russian criminal organization and one which will definitely get its own episode later on.

Mikhailov, he's trained to be a waiter, I think, in the early 80s or late 70s, while getting big into wrestling. And Russian gangs and criminal organizations, the 80s and 90s, a lot of them actually formed out of martial arts and wrestling gyms. That's where the thugs and enforcers sort of came from, along with Afghan war events. So this is like proper Greco-Roman wrestling stuff, right? This is not WWE. I'm imagining that doesn't really jive with the Soviet kind of culture. I mean, I'm sure they love WWE now, but, you know, back then it was like very, that was a big thing. those gyms for like people to wrestle and fight each other were like a very big thing.

I'm sure they're still big now with MMA. But that's actually, it's incredible. That's where like a lot of oligarchs and gangsters recruited their thugs who then, you know, obviously picked up guns or there's some stuff that says too that like Afghan war vets train these guys, the wrestlers and how to like kill people and chew guns, which seems like a little too, little too Hollywood for me, but it could very well be true. Mikhailov convinces Mogulavich to move to Moscow from Kiev where he was living, which he does.

and the two then live as neighbors in the same apartment building. Mogulavich claims that they're just friends and nothing more. I don't mean that in like a relationship way. I mean like in that they're not business partners. In 1984, Mikhailov gets jailed on an insurance fraud charge for stealing his own motorbike. And when he gets out,

he starts organizing these wrestling and sports clubs that he wanted to recruit wrestlers from and then he proceeds to recruit those guys to join a newfound gang. He also teams up with another former convict, this guy, Victor Averin, the guy whose birthday was at the hotel from the cold open.

Together, they form up this massive gang. They take on Chechen mafiosos and other mafioso gangs that are rising up in Russia. And then, when the Soviet Union really cracks up and the whole thing is wide open, they capitalize big time. Yeah, I mean, judging by the shows we've done about Chechen gangsters, you would have to have some serious,

serious stones to go up against those guys. So, yeah, fair play. Yeah, no, I mean, I think the Georgians also had some pretty, pretty big gangs then. it's really interesting to see the way that the Russian mafia, we call it the Russian mafia, but it's a lot of these minorities from the region, you know,

as well as Ukrainians, Jews, Russians, Chechens, Georgians, every sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. So it's not like, it really is, I keep using it in this episode

because it's easy shorthand, but it's not really a thing. Writes the academic Federico Verisi in a paper called the Russian mafia in Roman Budapest. I think it was 2009 or 2011. It was published. that Solentsevo fraternity, Sonant Skaia Brofell, the one we're talking about,

is the mightiest organized crime group to emerge from the wreckage of the Soviet Union. Estimates of the size of the Brotherhood, possibly exaggerated, range from 5,000 to 9,000 members. The group comprises no fewer than 10 semi-autonomous brigades, which operate under the umbrella name

of Solnetskavia. Oh, I'm going to mispronounce it, guys, sorry. The Russian police... That is horrible. Yeah, it's a tough one. The Russian police claim that it controls various banks, along with about 100 small and medium-sized enterprises.

Although little is known of the inner workings of the group, former members have claimed that the organization is governed by a council of 12 individuals who meet regularly in different parts of the world, often disguising their meetings as festive occasions. An FBI report in 1995 described it as the most powerful Eurasian organized crime group in the world in terms of wealth, influence, and financial control. And like Eurasia, what is that? Because it doesn't actually just mean like Europe and Asia, right?

It's a buy word for former Soviet Union states, including the stands, isn't it? It's like a weird, sort of like a weird sort of geographical thing. Yeah, I think it's that part of where Europe meets the stands and includes a lot of the former Soviet Union as well. It's my son. Not the northern part, like the more central and southern part. Does that make sense? I think. Yeah, I think so.

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Stop cutting me up. So we have this on Sevo gang. They are getting money, big money. And Mogilevich, he starts helping them figure out how to organize that money in the 1980s. The thing about him is he really is kind of a genius. You know those reports about Chapa or other criminal masterminds out? Like, if they just applied themselves, they would be CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and whatnot. But Mogilevich, he breaks the mold on that.

The guy has shell company after shell company, everything mixed in with legal businesses all over the world. He regularly is able to scam like major financial institutions that are supposed to do their due diligence, top level lawyers, all that. Wrights Verici, quote, the Mogulavich, the Sonaskaya created an intricate network of companies and factories in Hungary, laundering and investing a significant amount of money in the legal economy, mainly in arms production and the oil business. So Mogilevic, he's not part of that gang, right? He actually has his own organization, and they're sort of like parallel structures. They work in tandem, but he also does his own thing. In 1989, as the Soviet Union begins to crumble, Mogulavich heads to Tel Aviv with some sources also saying he lives in Poland briefly,

before marrying a Hungarian woman and moving to Budapest to set up shop. He ends up in Hungary in, I think, 1990, 1991, and lots of Russian crime groups had relocated there, many with connections to former KGB and Soviet military, some who had sort of been stationed there, but were left out in the cold when the Soviet Union collapses, and they're just kind of stuck there. Hungary is also undergoing a vast privatization, sort of like how Russia is at a time.

Everything's up for grabs. Whoever can take it gets it. It's got corruption and the violence, though, of course, nowhere near what Russia was like in the 90s, where there were like tens of thousands of murders a year. Yeah, we should do an episode on Hungary. I can't believe we haven't actually. You were there pretty recently, right?

Was it last year? I think two years ago. Oh man. It's like top five cities in Europe, in my opinion. Incredible city. And shout out to my pal, his fan there. He's a former, I just got to mention this because it was amazing at the time. He was a former interpreter for the Red Army.

And I was doing an interview in Budapest once. And he stops and he's like, ah, how exactly should I describe this one? Ah, yes. Industrialized Animal Husbandry. I'm like, whoa, what the hell? He's saying stuff that even I don't understand. So, yeah, he was a very good interpreter. and I'll hook anyone up that needs interpreting in Budapest because he's cool.

Thanks. Strange journalistic side note there. One of those businesses that goes up for grabs is the previously state-run oil trade company, which ceases to exist, but also they don't put in any sort of new regulations. Wrights Verisi, virtually anyone could establish a firm to sell oil since the state failed to screen firms seeking official registration. Meanwhile, due to the departure of the Soviet troops, vast storage facilities have become available. At the same time, the Hungarian government and an effort to shield farmers and the

poor from the full impact of high inflation and rising heating bills introduced a dual price system for heating and diesel oil. So what that means, I mean, I'll explain in a second, but this is how the heating oil scandal takes shape. And this is a scandal worth billions of dollars. It makes the infamous fuel tax scam in New York in the 80s, you know, the Michael Franzese one, look like peanuts. Big time suppliers were sending heating oil to central eastern Europe, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary. I think it's coming from Ukraine, maybe from Turkmenistan. So the dual system they had is the heating oil, because obviously that's a necessity

for most people, it had no taxes. Fuel had taxes, a lot of taxes. So these guys, these criminals, would ship their product labeling it as heating oil. I think it actually was heating oil because it's tax-free. And then they would run it through some sort of like chemical process that made it able to run in car engines. So they would be able to sell it as fuel, except they're not paying taxes on it, right? So they keep the extra cash that was supposed to go to the government as taxes.

I think they either sold that at the same price or maybe as reduced price, but it's still way cheaper if they sell it, like slightly reduced than the normal tax because of the normal gas because of the taxes. So it's incredibly simple and sounds kind of barely criminal. Well, I guess it's criminal, but not like crazy mafia stuff. And it makes them billions of dollars. So yes, cheat on your taxes. That's where the real money is. Yeah, this is not official Underworld podcast policy.

No, no, definitely, definitely not. But it is a suggestion that maybe you should do. Maybe you shouldn't. It's just a suggestion. It's not a policy. Not policy. All the real big money makers, like forget drugs or robbery or whatever, just hustle a nickel here and there on taxes for products like alcohol, gas, cigarettes.

I mean, that's the real big crime play. Apparently the 80s and 90s, everything, though. I didn't realize everyone knows about the New York one if you follow mafia stuff. but everything is about fuel taxes. Fuel taxes and cigarette taxes, man. It's a recipe for tens of billions of dollars in organized crime. You really want to get rid of organized crime. Just forget legalizing drugs, legalize cheating on your taxes for consumer goods.

Okay, it's doubling down. Yeah, I mean, it's like a reminder that some of the richest cities on earth, like Berlin. I mean, maybe not Berlin's rich, but Sydney for sure. Like some of the biggest gangs, they're still way deep into knock off cigarettes and tobacco. I mean, like, yeah, they're doing drugs too, but it's pretty nuts. Yeah, I mean, you have it in New York, too. The bodegos that sell you a pack of cigarettes for $12 or $10 instead of 18 or 20. It's because they get the cigarettes from Native American reservations.

I think there's one in Long Island, but I think most of them come from down south. They truck them up here, and they sell them to you without taxes applying. But it's, there is money in that, man. There really is. So this scam, the heating oil scam ran for years. And like I said, many people say up to billions were made. there were dozens of murdered businessman, cops, politicians, gangsters, because everyone was trying to get a taste. There was a war in the streets of Budapest, and the guy who won was Semyon Mogulavich.

Take what happens July 2nd, 1998. The city, it's no stranger to assassinations at that point, and gangsters taking out gangsters. But what happened that day in broad daylight, it shocks everyone. Big Tomboros is a quote-unquote businessman, meaning he's a mafioso. He's the guy I mentioned at the top. He's walking with his lawyer downtown. right in Budapest's fancy shopping district, which is also popular with tourists.

Big Tom should have been on his guard. Maybe he was, he just didn't expect something that was going to be so out in the open. See, he had been talking to folks in law enforcement, starting a year earlier, about all that was going on in Hungary's incredibly active underworld. Big Tom was involved in the heating oil tax scams and apparently had gotten sick of Russian and Ukrainian mobsters

muscling in on his turf and extorting everyone. He actually tells the police in February, of 1997 and May of 1998, that company owners who had not imported oil through Mogulavich have been threatened. He also calls him the main Russian mafia link in the country. Mogulavich's first part had been banned from the country by then and had moved to Moscow, but we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. So Big Thomas with his lawyer, he's making his way downtown, he's walking fast, faces are passing, he's making his way through the crowd, and he passes a white fiat. Just then, his cell phone goes off, and then a bomb placed in that

Fiat, packed with nine kilos of explosives, goes off as well. He's killed, his lawyer is killed, and two innocent bystanders are. I think there's about a dozen or so injured. And there's a huge upward. Eventually, fingers are going to point at Mogilevich, who was a big fan of car bombs. Again, this is never substantiated, and Big Tom was talking up a storm so it wasn't like he didn't have other enemies. But most people seem to think, Mogulavich is the one who ordered it. he's pressed on it actually in that amazing BBC interview I've mentioned. So the proper British broadcaster in Tom Mangold, he asked him, did you wish him dead?

And Mogulavich says, I was totally indifferent to him. I didn't know him. I haven't even met him. Were you angry that he was giving police information about you? Mogulavich. I only found out about that after his death. But in addition to myself, there were 20 politicians and 50 other people who also figured in the case.

so why is it me who killed him and not one of the other people? Mangold. Was it in your interest that he died? Mogilevich. Look, I didn't know the man. It wasn't my line of business. Boros and his friends were selling oil products in Hungary. I was selling wheat.

Editor's note, he was not just selling wheat. And the reporter says, did you have anything to do with his murder and Mogulavich? Of course not. And actually, I kind of like that, man. Like the reporter pushes him. But for those of you who deal drugs, who listen to us, and I know some of you are at least growing gray market weed. Next time you get hassled, just claim that you sell wheat and report back to us what happens in that regard.

You can just send those messages straight to Danny's Instagram. There's no need to involve me in that at all. Yeah, but it's not just wheat or oil, you know? We're going to rewind back to when Mogulavits settles in Hungary in the early 1990s. Him and his organization, they buy up a bunch of nightclubs that are basically brothels. They're also extorting business owners, big and small. He buys restaurants in Prague, a furniture company in London. He sets up a massive umbrella company called Aragon that focuses on energy in Eastern Europe.

He's got a casino in Moscow. And all through the mid-90s, he's buying up arms companies that manufacture things like mortars and anti-aircraft guns and artillery shells, as well as other legal companies. Some quotes from a later New York Times article. Quote, there is nothing he does not control there from prostitution up. Extortion, drugs, everything. a senior American law enforcement official asserted this week. According to British accounts, Mr. Mogulavich has also caused problems in the Czech Republic.

Quote, Mogulievich is organizing all the black markets from the former Soviet republics through the Czech Republic, a British intelligence report set in December 1994. This includes deals involving weapons, including heavy caliber weapons, drugs and precious stones. And if you believe Robert Freeman's reporting,

he's like the Amazon of crime. The guy does everything. Yeah. But how was he able to function then? I mean, he must have had state protection when he was doing all this stuff, right? I think in the mid-90s, I don't know if you needed it, but he definitely has it later on with the rise of Putin and all that because he couldn't have survived otherwise, you know? I mean, I'm sure he had people on the payroll and doing stuff like that. And there are quotes that we'll get to that he was friendly with Putin in 93-94, even though Putin wasn't in charge then.

Wright's Freeman and his big village voice piece, quote, intelligence assert that he traffics a nuclear nuclear. materials, drugs, prostitutes, precious gems, and stolen art. His contract hit squads operate in the U.S. and Europe. He controls everything that goes in and out of Moscow's Shremat-Jevil International Airport, a smuggler's paradise, says Moni Elson. That's the Brighton Beach Russian mobster we mentioned earlier, by the way, the guy who called him the boss from jail. It goes on, Mogulabich bought a bankrupt airline in a former Central Asian Soviet Republic for millions of dollars in cash so we could haul heroin out of the Golden Triangle. Most worrisome to you, authorities is Mogulabitch's apparently legal purchase are virtually the entire Hungarian

armament industry. So I don't know, are we are we buying this Sean? It kind of sounds like some you know, sounds a little farfetched to be sure, but like definitely a mover and a shaker. Yeah, I mean, it's entirely plausible that he was dealing like a billion different commodities and blagging giant cachets of weapons and ammo left in hangars by the Soviets when the iron curtain fell. but like that's pretty much how Victor Boot got his start, right? And it was, everything was fair game in that part of the world at that time. But I don't know, heroin, I really feel like the underworld connections could be the most far-fetched of all these things. And I might be wrong, but I don't think Michiglini mentions heroin or drugs much in the mafia.

Does he? I'm not sure. I think he does. I don't know if he does it in the context of Mogulavich. But I know that, like Boris Mayfeld was involved in a big heroin smuggling thing. from the Golden Triangle. So who knows? Yeah. And there must have been drugs involved, right? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. So Freeman quotes that FBI report that said some of Mogulayevich's guys met with Genovese family members in L.A. to broker a scheme to dispose of American toxic waste in Chernobyl by bribing officials there. And I actually read that report. It does say that, but it says toxic medical waste, which I don't know. Maybe I'm being particular, but it doesn't sound nearly as bad, right?

I hear toxic waste. I feel like, you know, like. You know, like runoff from like, like energy plans. Anyway, it should also be said that a lot of this stuff, like I said, is based off of that FBI dossiate. In general, they're full of like scuttlebut, rumors, allegations, unverified, unsubstantiated stuff, which doesn't mean it's not true. It just means that it's not verified. But even the Russian Ministry of the Interior is starting to talk about Mogulavich as some sort of dawn. In 1995, they claim his organization has 300 criminal associates who operate in more than 30 countries in Europe, Asia, North America,

murder, extortion, weapons trafficking, trafficking women for prostitution, money laundering, all sorts of frauds and all sorts of corruption with officials. More from that FBI report, quote, Mogulavich also reportedly maintains dealings with their Ukrainian energy minister and energy affiliated companies. Mogulavich, through Aragon Limited, has reportedly laundered over 30 million from Europe into the United States. States. Aragon uses a number of banks in its operations, with accounts identified in Stockholm, Sweden, London, United Kingdom, New York City, and Geneva, Switzerland. The Czech and Ukrainian intelligence agencies indicate that criminal groups under Semyon Mogulavich's domain in the Czech Republic are involved in the trafficking of illegal weapons, radioactive materials, and precious gems. They are also involved in prostitution and assassinations. I'm getting repetitive, but

like you guys, you guys get it, right? In the file, it runs through all of his criminal associations by name and associates, and there's so much insane stuff in there in connections and mafiosos and sell companies, it blows my mind. At one point, he's running illicit production of liquor in Eastern Europe, making bootleg vodka and packing it in absolute vodka bottles, then selling it to Hungarian companies with fake documents. I mean, is there anything more quintessentially Eastern European organized crime than that? Maybe like selling bootleg feel of track suits? Yeah, which is, by the way, an elite look. Great luck, great luck.

Quote, in some cases, Stolich-Naya brand vodka was substituted for Rasputin brand vodka, a more expensive brand. Mogulavich produced 15 million bottles of illicit vodka per month. One truckload of vodka is worth one to two million to Mogulavich. In May 1995, Hungarian authorities confiscated a 24,000-liter shipment of fake absolute vodka destined for Ukraine. The German bottler of Rasputin vodka is suing the Hungarian and Ukrainian governments for $500 million in losses.

and damages. I mean, what even, like, honestly, if even half this stuff is true, he's the most productive guy of all time. Like, how does one manage this keep so many balls in the air with this? Like, forget Andrew Huberman, right? This is like the real productivity guru. You think this guy is like meditating, getting morning sunlight, taking supplements and writing inspirational posts on LinkedIn? He is ripping darts and boozing all night and eating worse than a frat house at 3 a.m. Yet he's managing like 115 companies, 47 different hustles at once. He's a true multitasking guru, like a true multitasking king. Yeah, we need to normalize living badly again.

Like sleep scores, Jesus Christ, get out, get in the sea. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this shows it, right? Who is more productive than him? Nobody. I don't care how many, how many, how many, like multi-LLM companies you've started. This guy is doing better than you. I think where he really shines, though, is his ability to launder all the illicit money that he makes.

In the early to mid-90s, he's laundering a lot of it through London, actually. He's using an unsuspecting London law firm where one of the major partners is married to a Russian woman who had previously dated Mogulavage, but is apparently unsuspecting, which I don't know if I buy that. He poses as an international businessman, sets up some companies and runs the money through this law firm. and MI6 though, they catch on. The firm gets raided, they confiscate $2 million, and he gets banned from the UK. But the investigation collapses because Moscow doesn't share evidence, and the UK reportedly has to actually provide compensation to Bokoavich, which is incredible stuff.

At that point, the authorities even then in the UK, we're talking like 94-95, are describing him as one of the world's biggest criminals and estimate he's worth 50 million pounds. MI6 keeps an eye on him and eventually tips off the FBI, when later in the 90s, Mogulavich is secretly running a bank called BenEx, that he uses to launder a substantial amount of money through the Bank of New York. Here's the British Independent, quote, following the tip-off, the FBI approached the bank and with its cooperation, monitored transfers going through the account. In the period from October to March, this amounted to some $4.2 billion in more than $10,000 transactions. Federal authorities

believe as much as $10 billion has been laundered. Holy moly. Yeah, secret bank. that that is where you're going to make your real cash. Five foot five this guy was. This is impressive stuff. I mean, he's a genius. Like, he legitimately is a genius. Join me and follow the podcast, conspiracy theories,

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In 1995, of course, that's when we get the cold open, the raid on the gangster party and everything that follows. Now, I mentioned that missing $5 million payment that some report was the center of this dispute that almost got Mogulavich killed. There's actually an intercepted phone call by the Austrian police from April of 1994 between Mogulavich and Avarin, the second in command there,

where he reminds him that he needs to pay back the $5 million he took from the common fund for an investment. And I haven't seen this sort of connected in any of the other reports, but my assumption is it was that $5 million that they had the falling out over. So he's not officially atop that Bradfa, like some claim, even though he works with them. It might be like a counsel situation, like we said. It might be he's just a partner at times.

But one thing for certain is that they also were really relying on, him to launder that cash. But yeah, after that raid, Mogulavits is then banned from the Czech Republic, and he goes after some of the cops involved using corrupt hire officials to get them arrested, and he apparently also makes up with the Brodfa guys according to the feds. And here's an interesting rundown about how his organization actually works. Quote, the organization has a defined chain of command which emanates from Budapest, Hungary, overseeing a variety of criminal activities. Selected individuals within the group are appointed to manage specific criminal activities, e.g. weapon, trafficking and prostitution, while others are responsible for geographic areas.

Source reporting reveals that the Semyon Mogulavich organization is respected by high-ranking Russian OC members for using violence only as a last resort. Mogulavich is known for advising his subordinates to use their brains to find a solution before using their fists or guns. However, like numerous other OC groups, the Mogulavich organization has engaged in violence and furtherance of its extortion schemes. known contract killers are trained by Russian veterans of the Afghan war. In Prague, enforcers are known for their excellent physical condition and brutality.

Victims are repeatedly tortured and stabbed to death, rather than shot. Enforcers in the Mogulavich organization are not always under its control, sometimes carrying out independent actions. They have been known to engage in illegal small arms trade and the blackmail of Czech entrepreneurs. It paints quite a picture. The reality, though, is that the massive stuff Mogulavich pulls off, the stuff that makes him the big money. It's all nerd stuff, right? The guy must have an amazing quant. Yeah, that's what the money is, I guess. I mean, even the stuff I'm looking into in Vietnam

at the moment where I'm heading, yeah, I'm headed today as we're publishing this. It's all computer nerds, scammers, white-collar stuff. I mean, just bring back skinheads called Boris with brass knuckles and drinking problems, guys. You get better ghostwritten biographies at least. It is tough to do episodes on like, fine. People always ask us to do financial crime stuff. it's super boring unless they live like Wolf of Wall Street type lives, you know? Yeah. Yeah, what's his name? Joe Lowe, the guy who, uh, scammed over the banks out of like, yeah, he's fascinating.

But like, it's hard to make it interesting. Even we, we have a hard time making even Russian mafia stuff interesting sometimes. In the late 90s, Moogalabits pulls off another genius scam. He creates a company in Hungary called YBM Magnets, which is supposed to be a magnet manufacturer. The company soon gets listed on the. Toronto Stock Exchange in like 1996, 1997, they're starting to attract investments in the U.S. and Canada from like real deal institutional investors. The shares go from a few cents to over $20.

It's like they're pushing whibistics because the thing is the magnets don't exist. All of the paperwork is completely made up and regulators eventually assume the whole thing is one big money laundering operation. At one point, the company is even valued at a billion dollars. One mistake he actually makes, though, is he's on paper. as the original founder and controller and the largest shareholder at one point. And this is why he eventually gets dinged on it in the U.S. He also later tells that interviewer, the BBC one,

that he sold all the shares early on in 1996. In 1998, though, the feds catch on, and the FBI and the SEC actually raid the headquarters, which is weirdly in Newtown Pennsylvania, and the stock collapses, but not before Mogulavich makes off with an estimated $150 million. $1. Fucking magnets. How do they work? Oh, there you go. This guy. There it is. There it is. So, funny enough, the reason that I mentioned that this is actually the one he gets dinged on is because it's the crime that gets him on the FBI's top 10 most wanted. He's later indicted on it for securities fraud, money laundering, RICO charges, all related to this scam. It's a few years down the row when that happens. But now, the FBI statements and allegations, they are far ranging, right? As I've laid out the last 40 minutes, basically,

every organized crime and racketeering offense you can think of. And they'll go on record saying this stuff is true, that they know for a fact he ordered murders, did all this other stuff. But he doesn't get charged with any of that stuff. Maybe because they don't have the evidence. Maybe it's because the crimes don't happen in America or to Americans. I don't know. But the one thing he does get charged with is, like I said, that massive financial scam.

1998, though, is also where Mogulavich is starting to get a lot of attention publicly on the global scale for media, from law enforcement, giving public. statements from all sorts of different countries. That village voice article calling him, I think either the most powerful Russian mobster or the most powerful criminal in general comes out in 1998. And in 1999, both USA Today

and the New York Times are writing big articles on that massive bank fraud he does with the Bank of New York. So Mogulavich for the first time, he decides to do a press tour. Oh, also, the Hungarian police raid his villa in Budapest, so he relocates to Moscow,

where he's mostly untouchable. He gives an interview to a Moscow paper claiming that, quote, all charges of laundering money, drug trafficking, controlled prostitution, organized hits made against him are wild ravings, delirium of the FBI, which is trying to get additional funds from Congress

to fight the Russian mafia. You know, you know, those that like running joke about, like, my T-shirt saying that I do this stuff is not true, whatever it is, it's kind of basically that. Yeah. He also says the 15 billion money laundering claim is bunk, quote, this is nonsense.

Russia doesn't have this kind of money. If you take all the oil produced in Russia, and sell everything without returning a cent to the country, this will total $15 billion. But where is the rest? Yeah, I guess Russia in the 1990s doesn't have that kind of money, probably because he is poning the lot of it from oil, of which there is a lot.

Yeah, I think there was, there might have been more than $15 billion. I can't say, you're right? My assumption is the answer to that question is there is a lot more. He also does that interview I keep harping on with the BBC Panorama, his first English language one. I think his first English saying is one for the questions because he answers in Russian and it gets translated. At one point, they're actually just playing like Shayspace or backgammon on the roof of an old building on like a game set over a piece of cardboard in like a supermarket crate, which is, you know, like two Panaman guys outside of Odega.

It's pretty classic. I'm definitely jealous of the reporter. The first question the reporter asked him in the interview is what his business is. And he responds, for the past few years, I've been selling wheat and grain. And it keeps going, let me quote from the report. the reporter speaking. You are said to be a financier who wants prostitution, gambling, and money laundering. Would your own people, the Russians, say this if it is not true? Mogilevich, these are just words. They don't have documents proving that, and the people saying it understand nothing. So Mogulavich

is like, he's heavy set, he's wearing a shiny leather jacket over a sweater or a suit, and he looks like a mobster. He's constantly smoking cigarettes the whole time. He denies everything. The reporter is actually like force for him, right? He pushes back in his British high class kind of way. And Mogulabets is just evasive. He hits him a lot with a how do you prove a negative stuff, which is actually like a solid response, you know. Yeah, Tom Mangold, by the way, he's a bit of a legend. He's covered pretty much like every war of the 20th century. Panorama was amazing show.

I looked him up. He's still alive today. He's over 90 and he looks great. Tom, if you're listening, can you be my granddad or my dad or my friend because I love you and you're great? I'm betting he probably smoked cigarettes all night and drank booze all day too, just like Mogulabas. I've got the tab open, right? He says, I was a hard drinking, chain smoking war correspondent. How did I make it to 90, which is awesome?

I actually looked great when I was doing it. I've only started aging since I started trying to be healthy. I really think there's something wrong here. We're getting all the wrong information from all the fitness influencers, you know, and lifestyle coaches. Yeah. Drink and smoke. Yeah. Mogulavich also talks to American print journalist that same month for the first time.

Here's one of his quotes. I will tell you everything, the size of my underwear in 1972, what I had for breakfast, how much time it takes for my lovemaking, he says, pulling out another true cigarette. But first he said he wanted to answer someone the nefarious things that have been said about him. He was handed a fountain pen by his youthful-looking lawyer and ceremoniously initialed a two-page statement he was sending to the Russian Secret Service. Quote, I am not a leader or an active participant of any criminal group. At any rate, neither me nor any of my acquaintances have been convicted, under Russian laws,

against organized crime. It continues. Mr. Mogulabits' explanation for why the FBI said four years ago that he was a leading international criminal is unusual. I'm a person

everyone knew. 110 kilos of weight, very handsome, very friendly, he said. Such prominence then prompted unsavory Russians to give him up to American authorities in the hope they could gain entry

into the United States, he explained. I mean, you've got to hand it to a short fat king who describes himself as handsome. That is. that's cool. Some people just have confidence, Sean, you know, and he is one of those people. Who are they? Him, for one. But, you know, even with all that press and what he's saying,

he stays living the good life in Moscow, doing crimes and whatnot, out of the reach of the feds, and everyone else. In 2003, he's added to the top 10 most wanted list. And in 2005, FBI chief Robert Mueller accuses him of mastermining a crime ring that trafficked drugs and weapons, as well as running prostitution and money laundering rackets. Also in 2005, the Austrian feds give the FBI a confidential report on a new racket Mogulabits is running that involves kickbacks and gas deliveries from Turkmenistan to Ukraine. And this is actually like a gigantic scandal. He's behind a company called Ural Transgas, that's an intermediary for this trade,

and another company he sets up called Ross Uk Energero that works with gas prom, which is the biggest oil and gas company in Russia. This company is a contract to provide gas from Turkmenistan to Ukraine. Here's the CBC, quote, critics believe Ross, Ukraine, Energero, and companies connected to it serve primarily to scheme off profits from the gas trade. We are talking about the gas supply of Ukraine, said Tom Main, a researcher for Global Witness, a London-based non-governmental organization that tracks corruption. 80% of Russian gas that goes to Europe goes through Ukraine. So it's vital that we know who is controlling the gas, else we could find ourselves at the whim of potentially undesirable elements.

Yeah, it's really tough to think of any undesirable element shipping gas from Russia to. Europe, isn't it? Yeah. Obviously, this is before the war of in 2014, but again, we are talking about billions and billions of dollars here per year, and Mogulavich has set up these companies that really do

nothing but skim off the top, like middlemen of sorts. The alleged scheme often worked like this. Intermediaries bought Russian gas at favorable prices, sold it to Ukraine or through Ukraine to Europe, and siphoned off enormous profits, with organized crime groups taking a cut. Things get so wild that

Various Ukrainian presidents and high-ranking officials from the 2000 on are accusing each other of being tied into Mogulavich. And the scandal shakes the entire country in the 2000s, I think even into 2010, 2011. In January of 2008, though, we get a serious curveball. Because that's when Semyon Mogulavich is arrested in, of all places, Moscow. He's walking out of Moscow's World Trade Center with a business partner and his bodyguards when 50 armed commandos, Clyde and Balaclavas, arrest him and his partner. And considering who it is, it's a pretty paltry charge. Him and his partner are charged with tax evasion to the tune of $1.5 million through one of his company's Arbot prestige, which is a cosmetics company.

He's actually, I mean, he's not the owner. The owner of Arbott is the ones that's charged. And Mogulavich is charged for being his consultant on the evasion. Wow, there must be a real good concealer they're selling that can hide tax as well as blemishes. Hey, Danny, eh? That's terrible. I mean, that's worse than me. Yeah, that's so bad.

This is how the Guardian describes it. Yesterday, Russian police said Mogulavich had been detained under one of his many aliases, Sergei Schneider, which is a funny alias. The mafia boss uses 17 other names and holds passports from several different countries. Russia's interior ministry told the Guardian, we have been pursuing him for 15 years. We arrested him as Sergei Snyder in connection with tax invasion. It was only after his arrest that we realized who he was.

He has many different personalities and aliases. The Guardian went on to say, quote, Mogilevich's arrest appears to bring to an end one of the most colorful and picarous criminal careers of modern times involving money laundering, trading in drugs, prostitution, smuggling uranium,

and stolen icons, and international banking fraud. Spoiler, it was not the end of his pickerress criminal career. The Guardian, getting things wrong, shocking. Also, had to Google it. Pickerrest means relating to an episodic style of fiction

dealing with the adventures of a rough and dishonest, but appealing hero. Yeah, the PICREST podcast career of Danny Gold, for example. Yeah, yeah. Now, my assumption is that this whole thing is a reminder, right? It's a wake-up call from Putin, basically. I'm number one, I'm still in charge.

This is all pure speculation on my part. But, I mean, come on, you really think after all these years and all these allegations, this is what they get him on, this is what they care about? Putin wants to let him know that, despite the media saying he's this powerful mob boss, I'm the top, I'm the top most powerful mob boss. the idea that someone could be above him, like he could not handle that. Mogulavit spends 18 months locked up before he's released by a Moscow court. He has to take an oath that he's not going to flee the country.

He's never actually tried and never even goes to court. Some analysts speculate it might have to do with the Ukraine energy stuff, the Russia-Ukraine gas trade. Either way, he's out and about in 2009. And then we don't really hear that much from him later on. In 2015, the British Telegraph releases a recording from infamous former KGB and FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko. Am I saying that right, Sean? Yep, Livinenko, yeah. Liminenko, yeah. For those who don't know, he's this former KGB and FSB guy,

whose job was tracking organized crime. He came in from the cold. I guess I don't know if I'm using that right. I never actually read the book. He defects from the KGB in Russia to the UK. I guess it's the FSB at that point, to the UK, and he gives up a whole ton of info, and eventually he's poisoned and killed by the Russians in a very public way. Yeah. The Litvinenko thing was massive, massive story in the UK. I've actually got his book right there behind me. It's really good. I could probably do a show on it sometime, actually.

It's like really, really super interesting. Maybe when we've cleared all of our schedule of other shows and ideas sometime around 2035. But also, you've never read the spy who came in from the cold. That's sacrilege, man. That's like a classic. I'm going to give it to you when I see you next. Sounds good. in the secret recording, it's done in 2005 with Italian investigators.

He says that Mogulavich had a good relationship with Putin since 1993, 1994, way before he was in power. He also claims that he sold weapons to al-Qaeda. There's another Lee Kongro from 2000 with former Ukrainian president, Leonid Kutma, who claims the same thing that Putin and Mogulavich had a great relationship. And that kind of has to be true, right? There's no way he could have been in Moscow when Russia in the 2000s doing what he did without Putin's approval. There's just no way that would happen.

Anyway, he goes really quiet after that. We don't hear much else. The Netflix stock says he lives in the Moscow suburbs, next to the head of the Communist Party in Russia, in a super secure neighborhood where only the highest officials live, but he allegedly moves out, I think, sometime around that. So Leonid Reut Weitman,

that gangster interviewed on the Russian radio program, who claims that he ordered all these murders. He says that in 2015, he was living in Sochi, which is a Russian city on the Black Sea, where the Winter Olympics were held a couple years ago. Also in 2015, he's removed from the FBI

top 10 most wanted list after it's determined that he was located in Russia and no longer fit top 10 criteria. He's the last seen at a funeral for one of the leaders of the Sonsangaya Brawafa at a Russian church. I think that was in 2020-ish, around then. And in April of 2022,

the FBI working with the U.S. State Department's transnational organized crime rewards program, they again offer up to $5 million for info on him. And that's all we have on him, besides my guy saying that he's lost a lot of weight and maybe is not in Moscow or even Russia anymore. I mean, get you butt on the show. Get him on the show. Him, her.

Yeah, I don't think he's going to, I don't think he's going to go for it. He needs to not say things. But yeah, sorry, guys, this was all over the place. It was one of the most confusing stories I've ever done. There's so much different information on this guy. It's actually fascinating to do the research and see, you know, the origins of some of it, where it all. comes from. But thanks for tuning in.

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