The Unmade Podcast - EMERGENCY EPISODE: The Discovery of Wonderful Things

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

EMERGENCY EPISODE: The Discovery of Wonderful ThingsTim and Brady discuss an unexpected discovery at Mrs Hein’s house - and a potential international incident with the Dutch authorities.See pictures of the objects here - https://www.unmade.fm/pictures-for-emergency-episode-spoonsSupport us on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/unmadeFMJoin the discussion of this episode on our subreddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/Unmade_Podcast/Catch the podcast on YouTube where we often include accompanying videos and pictures - https://www.youtube.com/@unmadepodcastPictures of previous Spoons of the Week - https://www.unmade.fm/spoon-of-the-week

Let me paint a picture. It's November 1922. An Egyptologist Howard Carter is peering through a small hole in an ancient doorway. He's the first person to look into the tomb of Toot and Carmen for nearly three and a half thousand years. Unlike the other grander tombs discovered here in the Valley of the Kings, this one has been found with its seal intact, not thoroughly plundered by the tomb robbers of antiquity. Looking over Carter's shoulder is the wealthy Lord Carnarvon, the man who's funded this epic and methodical search. Here are Carter's words.

As my eyes grew accustomed to the light, details of the room within emerged slowly from the mist. Strange animals, statues, and gold, everywhere the glint of gold. For the moment, an eternity it must have seemed to the other standing by, I was struck dumb with amazement. And when Lord Carnarvon, unable to stand the suspense any longer, inquired anxiously, can you see anything? It was all I could do to get out the words. Yes, wonderful things.

Over the following months and years that followed, the small chambers crammed with treasures, and of course the mummy of Toot and Carmen himself, were painstakingly removed. They remain perhaps the most famous ancient treasures, particularly the coffins, sarcophagus, and death mask of the boy king. It's hard to imagine a greater hall of treasures ever being uncovered in modern times. Until now.

Tim, we don't do emergency podcast. slightly. No, we don't. Certainly not. Only in the gravest of situations or the most joyful of situations. Yeah. And things that are making international news. Massive news. Well, before they make massive news, we like to give the scoop, the inside, the skinny, to our stakeholders, our listeners first. This is, are we building it up enough? I don't know. I think so. I think it's about the right level. So what's happened, Tim? Talk me through Well, a little bit too casually the other night I received a text message from my mum. Now, first of all, I've got to set the scene here.

As regular listeners know, we have engaged in a, we have a weekly regular segment called Spoon of the Week. And what we've been doing there is delving through the magnificent archives of the Mr. and Mrs. Hine Spoon souvenir Spoon Collection. It's been a glorious journey. We've produced many wonderful photos. photos, many wonderful memories. People have contributed to the collection as well. And of course, we've got the very famous cards of which there are more to come very, very soon, which are highly, highly collectible on the across the internet. I always thought we had the load, right?

We've been working our way through the Tupperware container, and there's still a lot to go. There's some beautiful treasures, wonderful things, beautiful things still there. But I thought that was it. I thought I was familiar with all of them, being the Spoon Archivist that I am. Yeah. Then suddenly, last night, randomly, out of the blue, I get a text message from my mum, casual as you like, dropping a bomb. Yeah. The bomb is this. Hi, Tim.

Here is a photo of the Dutch spoons. I will clean them before I give them to you. I also have a rack for them. Love mum. That's it. I'm like... The Dutch spoons? Dutch spoons.

What the heck of the Dutch spoons? What Dutch spoons? And then, just as I'm wondering, a photo arrives of a collection, upside down photo, of a collection of spoons from my mum. And I've never seen any of them before. I've never seen them before. Everywhere, the glint of gold. Well, in this case, silver.

In fact, sterling silver. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I said, what are these? And she goes, these are the Dutch spoons. Mum, it seems, over the years we've been exploring this and she's been listening to the podcast has never, ever mentioned that she has a separate, exclusive little collection of Dutch spoons that wasn't kept with the main collection.

Because, of course, a great, I won't say weakness or deficiency, because that would be unfair, but certainly a feature of your father's spoon collection that we've, covered over many years now, is they are very much based on his travels along the eastern states of Australia. They have always been quite limited in that way. They were never very international. Your father, of course, for those who don't know, was a Dutchman. Great ties to the Netherlands. But they were not Dutch spoons in the collection. And I always thought this was sad. And suddenly, we've got this bombshell of a whole hidden section, a whole hidden collection of other spoons that we can feature on Spurn of the Week.

This is incredible. Have you seen them in person? I've got them. I've got them in front of me right now. It's amazing. I've brought them. I've picked up mum for the church prayer meeting and she's brought the spoons with her. Magnificent. Give us a little tingle. Give us a little folly work. Can you hear them? There they are. Wow. There are 19 of them. I don't know if there's meant to be 20 and there's one lost, I don't know, I'm going to have to do some research on that because 19 feels like a strange amount, a strange number. Mum says, oh, they come with a special rack, but looking at the rack, that's just like all the other racks we had at home. So I think, I don't think that was

like, I think mum thinks they all came together with the rack, but I don't think that's the case. I think that's an Australian purchase when they got back. But this is a Dutch collection, they are clearly set. No, they don't all look the same. Like, they've all got different stems and were they collected on this famous holiday your family took to the Netherlands, or do we know? Yeah, no, I've been pumping her for information over the last 24 hours and she's been giving, forever moving on to other topics, like going, yeah, yeah, we got them when we were

in Holland. Listen, I've got this thing in my shower and me going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, back to the spoons. mom back to the spurns stick to the spurns man okay and um yeah it turns out so we went on our trip to holland when i was um three and four somewhere around there and turns out these these were a gift from my auntie anne uh with whom we stayed in enskade and it's her daughter hanukkah that i saw when i was over there a year ago and um it it looked i think you're going a bit Mrs. Hine on me here with your extraneous details, but all right. All right.

Let me record that again, sorry. These were a gift from my auntie Ann, with whom we stayed when we were over there for like six months, you know, on this trip when I was like, you know, four years of age. And I said to mum... All in one load then, like not, not... He hasn't collected these from different places. He's been given the whole set as a gift from a relative. That's right. That's right.

They were given as a set. Mum remembers them being given as a set, which is why I think she thinks the rack. But they weren't purchased as a set. No, I believe they were. I said to Mum, have you still got the box they came in? Because she sort of talked about them all coming in one box, like as a collection. Yes, but surely Auntie Anna, whoever it was,

had collected them individually and then just handed them over to your dad as a set. No, no. I believe it was like a set that you buy, like a whole set of spoons. Like here is a set of, you know, the best, you know, Dutch spoons altogether, something like that. Certainly, now, maybe wrong. This all has to be verified with like a time machine or something. But this is mum's best recollection. I wonder if it's been peppered with a couple of others.

Like maybe it was a set of 15 and there's a couple of different ones. There's a couple that are Delph blue and I wonder if they've been grabbed as well. Although, yeah, even though they're different, they don't seem like. quite match. No, they don't seem like normal souvenir spoons. They're quite, um, or maybe they're just antiquated old. Some are enameled. Some have got the Delph blue, like you said. Some have got little sculptures of things like windmills at the top. I'm not, they don't, some of them look like a set to me. Some of them look different. Yeah. The question I have, Tim, is you always have told us how you remembered the spoons hanging in your house when your dad was still alive and you're a young

boy, a young man even. And you know, you would look at them admiringly and then of course one day you inherited them. Do you not remember the Dutch spoons hanging on the wall? Was it only the Australian spoons hanging on the wall or what's going on? Well, our, the hallway of our house just had spoons all the way down them. I didn't pay any attention to what they were. I mean, a few of them that were, the ones that were near the phone, you end up staring at because that's where the phone is on the wall, right? And other ones, you know, where you turn into the toilet, I guess you see those a little bit more. Others are just there. They're just there. I didn't go through and go, well, hang on, let me do a bit of an audit of the nations that are represented in the spoon

collection, because that's not what you do with your parents' knick-knacks, is it? When you cleared out the house to help your mother move and you took possession of the mother load of spoons, that we've all become so familiar with. How come you didn't get these Dutch spoons? How were they smuggled out? How did your mum end up with them and you not know? Well, mum seems, she says that she took them to her unit. When we packed up the big house,

I found the other spoons in the shed in a big, big container. And that's what I thought was all the spoons. Mum says that this Dutch collection was the one bit of it that she wanted to continue to display. And she says she displayed them in her unit. This is all pre-unmade podcast. so I wasn't looking for the spoons or aware of them. No.

She says I didn't notice them. They were there and I have no memory of that whatsoever. So I don't know if they were in an inconspicuous place or whether she had them in the safe or under a bed or somewhere. I don't know. Has your mum got a safe? No, but I'm just saying that's where I'd keep them. That's where I will pick them.

Amazing. Amazing fine. This does remind me of the story of the Valley of the Kings. You know, they thought all the tombs had been found. They thought there were no more tombs to find. And not only did they find another tomb right at the end, but it was the tomb of tombs with all the magic stuff inside, unlike all the other tombs in the Valley of the Kings

that had been looted thousands of years ago and there was nothing cool left. You know, and then they finally found Tutankar moon, and it had the mother load in it. This is what's happened to you. You thought you had all the spoons. Not only did you not, but these are like the golden spoons.

These are the magic spoons. These are the Dutch spoons. Yeah, of course, my father was a lot older than Tutankhamen, but I do take your point there. I wonder, what sort of comparison would it be? Like, it would be like if we had the Hobbit and then suddenly we discovered these manuscripts

and it turned out to be the Lord of the Rings? Or would it be? Is that, you know, to me like this other yeah you know i would these are like the dead sea scrolls of spoons that's right that's right it's like uh finding ghost set of watchman the the the unpublished novel from harper lee you know or or exactly yeah or when they like when they've or when they found the titanic it reminds me of as well all these like all these all these all these things spring to mine well certainly it's like it's when they found half the titan titan it's when they found half the titanic and

And then they went, oh, wow, there's another half down here, too. Yeah. Did your dad ever meet Tutankhamun? Did he ever tell stories? No, he didn't. But I tell you what else I got tonight that's from a similar era is with one of the distraction, other things that mum wanted to talk about on the way here was, look, she said, I wonder if you can hold on to these special documents and put them in my safe. That's what she said. That's what got me thinking about safes.

And I said, like, sure, whatever. And she handed me this rolled up scroll, like a, you know, like a postal, post-y thing. And it says birth, marriage and naturalization papers. And then it's got, like, you know, dad's name on it and stuff. So I'm like, oh, okay, here we go. This would be interesting, dad's birth certificate and whatever and naturalization papers. Well, it's nothing of the sort. Yeah.

They are ancient parchments. from 1954 and I think 1939. Yeah. They are registration of hairdressing qualifications from dad. Nice. Nice. I've sent them to you. If you want to have a look at them. Oh, I have seen them.

Could we call these the Dead Sea hairdressing registration papers? The dead hairdresser scrolls. this is to certify that Herzhein actually this is the one when he came to Adelaide so this one's 1958 Has this day been registered by the hairdresser's registration board of South Australia

as a hairdresser in respect of the following classes of hairdressing men's shaving men's hair dressing water waving and general knowledge that is That is a parchment right there. That is the Magna Carta right there. He wasn't allowed to do women's hair, obviously.

He never did women's hair, no. No. No. Well, he didn't have the parchment for it. He didn't have the parchment. Is this something you would consider including on your objectivity videos, man, these these parchments? I would. I mean, some of those other certificates are more impressive to me.

Like, they look like more impressive documents. Like, I like the one that's got the photo. of him or not. Yeah, yeah. This one says this is a diploma of Heron Kappa's Bedriff, hairdressing. That's from 1949. Wow. Yeah, and there's another one here that's really impressive. It's quite long and it's got the

classic sort of red, you know, seal at the bottom. Yeah, the red fake seal. Certificate of registration as a hairdresser. Heerts-Hain, post office, Yerlorn. that's what he's living in the post office in a small town called your lawn has been blah blah blah you know registration board of Victoria as a hairdresser and this one is 1975

nominated by Stephen Mays in respect of the salon situation situated at Shores Arcade in Moey I love how you had to be nominated by someone yeah and that yeah seconded very very similar to the Nobel Prize isn't it It is. It is. This, well, this has been an historic day. We've got the Dead Sea hairdressing parchments and the Dutch spoons, the mother load, the Tootan car spoons.

My golly, there was a lot of paperwork in becoming a hairdresser back in the 50s, 60s and 70s in Australia. It was, it was, it was quite the affair. It was a bit like a lawyer moving state. He had to sit the bar exam all over again. That's harsh. But what do you do, you don't sit a bar, do you sit like a pole? One of those chairs, reclining chairs. Oh, I love it. There's no actual official documents for birth or naturalisation,

nothing of, you know, of that kind of level of importance here at all. It's literally all hairdressing. There's one, two, three, four, five parchments here, and it's all hairdressing related. I'm assuming when your dad was born, they didn't do like birth certificates. Did they just like chisel something into a wall? or that's right that's right it was very um a town crier would make some announcement what are you

going to do with the spoons are they going to start filtering their way into spoon of the week what do you think are they are they sort of an you know are they an elite sort of collection that's how mum's treated them look at looking at them again they are actually quite nice they're not made as souvenir spoons i think they are made to be a bit above that like on the back of some of them some of them that i think are a collection there's something called zilvastup which which I looked up, and that's all about a, like, there's a silver city called Schoenholmen in the middle of the Netherlands. And that's a place where apparently heaps of silverware was made. And it says Silverstadt 90, and I looked that up, and there's heaps of stuff.

And that sort of indicates that it's a particular type of silverware where there's like 90 grams of silverware in the whole collection or something like that. That's called a hallmark, isn't it? Oh, okay, right. Is that the hallmark stamped on it? Something like that. Yeah. But, I mean, they do obviously come from different sources, though, because I'm looking at one of them,

and it's got, like, a different stem to all the others, and that's got, like, Holland engraved on it. So that does feel very touristy. Yeah, yeah. So there's obviously, yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. And there is one with a bit of a coloured, yeah, actually, and that one doesn't have it on the back.

So what I'll do, when we get them photographed officially, is I'll put the proper exclusive silver collection together. You know when they opened Tutankarmoon's Tomb and saw all the cool stuff, it actually took them about 10 years to do all the photographing, the methodical cataloging of where everything was in the room and everything and moving it all out. It was done like with the utmost of care. So everything was recorded properly, preserved properly and looked after.

Is that what happened with these spoons? And is that what you're going to do with it? Is each one going to be photographed individually, conserved, documented? Yes, what's the plan? Look, to be honest, Mum has given them to me in quite a nice little leather pouch

from Typo. And so I'm going to put them back in there and that seems to be a nice little home for them. I'll keep them in there in the major Tupperware. But I think we will get them photographed. I think that's what, I mean, I don't want to hide them. You know what I mean?

It's for the whole world to enjoy them. It's not for, just a... It is. It's like, yeah. It's a bit like with Indiana Jones. Just for me, if, like, if this was an Indiana Jones film and I was just wanting to keep them in my little collection, like, Mum has selfishly done for the last 50 years, then Indiana Jones would be like, they belong in a museum, you know. They belong to everyone.

So that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to share them. I feel that way. I feel they belong to the community, to the stakeholders, to the civilians. The fine print, they're not. technically going to be owned by the stakeholders like they technically are owned by me like okay just don't get my ideas could this become one of these things where you know how you have like the elgin marbles and you have it with a lot of Egyptian objects as well and things like that

where the country of origin wants to claim them back and repatriate them are you worried that the Dutch authorities are going to find out about these spoons and find out they're in Australia and demand them back yeah it could be quite the scandal. Like the coronation stone being up in like Scotland somewhere and coming back down, you know, it was all sorts. All sorts of things. All sorts of things. I mean, the UK's museums are full of looted objects. Well, that is a risk. I'd probably ask the listeners in the Netherlands to maybe keep this between us. I don't know if we can, where their loyalties lie ultimately to their nation or to the unmade podcast, but if they could, I'm not asking them to lie,

I'm just saying, you know, you don't have to bring it up, don't have to mention it, don't have to call the government or anything like that. Can you think of anything that would be better or funnier for us than if the Dutch government tried to claim these spoons back? I think I would try and negotiate a compromise where like I agree. to tour them they could be toured you know every few years like around the country bring them over on loan yeah on loan like they just tour it around and people could look at them maybe touch some of the some of the lesser ones they could be they could have like

a street parade whether each spoon individually is on a different float or vehicle and it goes down like a main road in amsterdam and the people can come out and see them one by one they could end up on a street parade, particularly because on Kings Day in the Netherlands, they have this ritual where everyone basically has like a yard sale, a garage sale. So it's traditional for everyone to bring out the crap from their house and just put it along the edge of the street. And everyone goes along and takes and buys from each other. So, and that's also there's flags and celebration and outside eating and all that kind of stuff. So it's kind of like a parade. So, There's a good chance that they may or they end up getting their own parade in that kind of situation if we were to leave them with someone else.

I think they should have a separate day though, like spoon day. Spoon day. Where everyone celebrates spoons and spoons such as these come out maybe just once a year. You know, like the shroud of Turin, you know, they protect it most of the time and occasionally they get it out. it could be like that with these spoons that most of the time like for security purposes and conservation purposes they're kept hidden away but once a year on spoon day they they bring them out for the people to see people can like go past it like the crown jewels on little on little travelators have a look at them or it could be like the welcome stranger you know that big gold nugget that you can go where there's one but it's not the real one like it's just a painted rock that the kids go up to and go oh there's the gold there's the gold. And it turns out, of course, it's not the gold. That's like, you know, safely kept somewhere.

Well, it was probably broken up, I imagine. The Welcome Stranger, it was so big. Yeah, you're right. Maybe our next priority should be having replicas of these made for display purposes. So the originals can be kept somewhere safe. Maybe we can create souvenir spoons of these spoons that people could buy. Yeah. When they've come to see them.

You could have your... You could have your own, you could own replicas. The best thing that could happen, though, and this is what made the Mona Lisa so famous and so valuable, is that those spoons get stolen and then recovered. And all the publicity around the theft is what would create the legend. Because the Mona Lisa was a famous painting, but it wasn't the big deal that it is now until it got stolen and disappeared for a while.

And then when they recovered it, you know, it became this, everyone wanted to see it then. It became world famous. You need that to happen with these spoons. We can't guarantee the recovery, though. That's the thing. That's the danger with things being stolen. You're not sure that you're going to get them back.

Unless you and I arrange it, and it's not really stolen. Oh, we just pretend they're stolen. And report it to the police and, like, the media and stuff. And that says lots of hype. And then we just put them in a locker at a, you know, at a train station or something. And then anonymously phone and tip off the police and say, the spoons are in that locker. and the police will recover them and return them to you

and it'll be like, oh, magnificent, what a story, what a story. Who stole the spoons? How did they end up there? It'd be the stuff of legend. That's when I think the Dutch government would step in and say, look, they're not safe anywhere but with us. We want them back. I'm not entirely convinced this is what your mum has done

and she's deliberately held them back to increase their value. It's the sort of thing she'd do. That's right. After seeing the way we've been waving the other spoons around everywhere, They've become legendary. She's like, she didn't want to see them commercialised, turned into, you know, cards and things like that. They're too precious. She's treated them like relics.

What else is she sitting on? Are there more spoons? Well, that's true. I haven't had a good look through Mum's place since I hid the kids' Xbox for Christmas under her bed. I really need to get in there and have a look. That was your chance to find them. They were probably under the bed all the time. They probably were.

I thought I was worried about the Xbox. and there was something far more valuable right next door. Yeah. Oh, wow. This really is quite something. Thanks for sharing this news with us. We obviously couldn't wait for a normal podcast to share it. It had to be.

We had to get it out ASAP. Yep, yep. And with the spoons being photographed, I will hand them directly over to our trusty photographer Don, who will do something of a royal portrait of them, lovely, beautiful photos, and we'll do them as a set. We'll have that released for everyone.

At the very least, you'll be able to see photos of them with the press release, except in the Netherlands where we'll be trying to keep it under wraps. Yeah, we'll be blocking. We'll be blocking. I'll make sure this episode's blocked in the Netherlands. Where's Tudan Karmin's stuff now? I know that tours a little bit. Do you know where its default home is?

No, the good stuff. I mean, they occasionally tour stuff like secondary stuff, like, you know, a few jars and things. but the good good stuff doesn't tour anymore and most of that is in the Cairo Museum like the Death Mask and things like that his actual mummy, his corpse I think when I saw it it was actually in the tomb

in the Valley of the Kings so when you go to the Valley of the Kings there are all these huge grand tombs but Toot and Coburn's tombs is very very small which is why it remained hidden for so long and was forgotten. It's actually just two or three little rooms.

And you can go in there and all the stuff's gone, all the gold and the good stuff's gone. But they did have like a glass case climate controlled that had his body in it that you could look at. So he's still in his final resting place. I don't know if it's still there. I think it is. But yeah, everything's out.

All the gold and the glitzy stuff's all out, mainly in the Cairo Museum. When I went to the Cairo Museum, it was the old Cairo Museum. And I was really surprised by how casual they were with it and stuff. But I think they've opened a new Cairo museum now, which is like whiz-bang supermodern. So it's probably a bit of a different experience.

But that's where the good stuff is, except the body, which I think is still in his actual term. Which probably makes a bit of sense. They feel that has a bit of integrity. You know what I mean? That he is in his resting place, even though they've taken all the gold and all the other rubbish. I think that's the thinking.

Yeah. Including, no doubt, his spoons. Well, I did check. And I couldn't find any evidence of any spoons being in the five or seven thousand objects that was taken out of the tomb. I did a search and it appears that there are some things that are spoon-like that are to do with perfumes and cosmetics and stuff. But I don't think there were any true spoons found in Toot and Carmon's tomb as far as I know. Oh, do you know what? We should have.

We've never done Tomb of the Week. Oh, that's true. That's true. I wonder if there's any evidence of Jerry Hine visiting Tutankarman around the time of his passing. What, like paintings on the wall and stuff? No, I'm just saying if there's no evidence of any spoons going into the collection, I wonder where they went.

I just wonder who might have gotten there just a little bit before. I see what you're suggesting. Interestingly enough, as I love to say, Tutankhamun's tomb was robbed twice back in the day, back in like, you know, the height of Egypt and stuff. And both times they saw what had happened and they patched up and fixed it, got all the stuff they could back in there and resealed it. So there were two robberies of Toot and Carmoon's tomb. And it was then sealed and lost for thousands of years until Howard Carter found it. Yeah.

So maybe those two initial robberies are the other. reason there are no spoons in there. And yeah, I mean, who's to say where your dad was two, three thousand years ago? That's right. That's right. Yeah. I do love the idea that people would have broken in and just searched, walk past everything, just found the spoons and left with the spoons. Yeah. It's a bit like the start of the movie Heat, you know what I mean, where they like rob that like security car. They don't take the money. They just know the documents they're looking for and leave everything else because it's like, because they didn't. have time they were on the clock so they went straight for the spoons got out don't be distracted

by the mountains of gold we just want the spoons yeah well the spoons are easy to carry to conceal i mean you can't get a whole sarcophagus out no no you're going to carry a big golden coffin you no chance no spoons easy to conceal easy to hide as your mum has proven so that's right that's I don't know, I'm just trying to put together in my brain a joke between, you know, my mummy hiding the spoons and Tootan Karmine or there's some joke there, I can't quite put it together in my mind, but under my mummy's bed. Yeah, all right. So, yeah, there we go. watch the space? Was your mum apologetic in any way? Was she like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

It took me so long. She was blaming me. Like, don't you know about my spoons? Of course you know about my Dutch collection, this special Dutch collection. And she kept saying, as mum does about anything, oh, it'd be worth a lot now. Oh, they're really expensive. Oh, they'll really be worth a lot now. They're antique. Because mum's one of those people where she goes through an op shop and finds, you know, like a piece of wood that looks like it's, you know, older than 25 years and goes, oh, that's antique.

That's why she married your dad. Yeah. Oh, nice. Thank you for sharing the news as soon as possible. No, that's all right. No, that's all right. Pleasure, pleasure to share it with the world. And I was just joking people in the Netherlands.

Please, please do let people know your neighbours, friends, family, people like that. it's going to make its way through to the authorities at some stage. But, you know, I couldn't, you know, share it with your families and the neighbourhood and community and, you know, celebrate together. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I don't want to speak for Tim, but I think we're open to the idea of some kind of repatriation

or at the very least alone and special tour of the Netherlands. Yeah, yeah. I think that could work. Yeah, I could do that. Yeah. I wonder if they want the hairdressing diplomas back again as well. They're very delicate. I mean, I'm surprised you're handling them with your hands.

They could just crumble.