The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - A messy conversation about divorce

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

Matt & Abby have an honest, thoughtful conversation about divorce, what the data actually says, and the seasons of marriage that tend to be the hardest. They talk through common reasons marriages struggle, indicators that often get ignored, and why they still believe in marriage, before closing with an Agree to Disagree segment and questions from listeners. This episode was sponsored by Rocket Money, OLIPOP & Shopify. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster—join at https://RocketMoney.com/unplanned Get a free can of OLIPOP when you buy any 2 cans in store—just visit https://drinkolipop.com/unplanned Sign up for your $1/month trial and start selling today at https://shopify.com/unplanned with promo code unplanned. Chapters: 00:00 - A messy conversation about divorce 01:39 - Getting married before 25 12:53 - sponsor: Rocket Money 14:18 - Most difficult periods of marriage 25:42 - sponsor: Olipop 28:52 - Largest indicators of divorce 30:34 - Most common reasons for divorce 33:28 - Jobs and divorce rates 40:40 - Benefits of marriage 42:58 - sponsor: Shopify 44:40 - Agree to Disagree 57:44 - Q&A Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

People are just so quick to just be like, leave him. If I had a dollar for every comment or like on a comment for people that told you to leave me, I would have a lot of dollars. Getting married under the age of 25, you have a higher rate of divorce by up to 25%. We were children when we started dating. But there's like pros and cons, right? Compromise wasn't exactly possible. That was like a hurdle in our relationship.

We had to overcome. And we did. We figured it out. I got my way. Or men or women were likely to cheat. Let me look that up. Men. Why men?

Because. They think with their peepee. What would you say it's been the hardest season to grieve and let go of and recognize that part of our life is done? Hey, before we get started on today's episode, I wanted to ask you guys to just take a couple seconds of your time to leave a review for our podcast. It means the world to us. And if you're not subscribed to the show, if you wouldn't mind just tapping the subscribe button, actually the majority of the people that watch the show aren't even subscribed. According to the data, that's probably you watching this right now. So please, it takes one.

second, hit subscribe. We'd love to have you a part of this community. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to unplanned a marriage and family podcast. And today, we are talking about divorce. We're going to have an unfiltered, messy conversation about it. We're about marriage and divorce. Which is actually kind of funny because I had people submit some questions today. And someone literally thought we were divorced, which is so sad. No, I feel like that's, I thought that. I was like you're literally going to make it sound like we're getting divorced. We're not getting divorced, guys. We're just having a conversation about it, which I think is actually so important to have these conversations in marriage because if you avoid uncomfortable conversations

in your marriage, it's just going to grow like a disconnect between you. Okay. Actually, I was like looking at what we had prepared for this episode. And the thing that surprised me the most, because I feel like we talk, gosh, we talk endlessly about young marriage, apparently getting married under the age of 25, you have a higher rate of divorce by up to 25%. Do you think that changes how we should advise our kids on marriage? Like if we have a kid, a kid, that comes to us wanting to get married like we did when you're 19, are we going to encourage them to wait? Because then there's data that shows if you cohabitate,

if you cohabitate, there's a likelihood that then you split up too. You're saying that if you live together before you're married, you're more likely to get divorced. Yeah, that's what Arthur Brooks told us too, and there's research to support that. I think it all boils down. Maybe this just makes me sound like a hopeless romantic, but I think it just all boils down to when you meet your person.

Yeah, you do sound like a hopeless romantic. Would you describe me as one? Well, here's the thing, babe. Like we got married freaking young, but we're also nearly a decade in almost seven years of marriage. This summer is seven years of marriage. And, you know, I do think I think I do. I want to say, well, I want to say it's probably, there's like pros and cons, right? Like, I feel like it's harder because we've changed so much because we were children when we started dating.

Yeah. But like, we also have grown up together. I actually think the determining factor on whether or not you stay married boils down to whether or not you both are willing to work on it. Oh, yeah. That's good. Snaps. I'm snapping for that. And here's the thing.

You have to actually be willing to work on it because it's like, and there's some, I mean, that is some things you could maybe decide. Like, I am not willing to work on this anymore. Yeah. Like, that's valid. But it's as simple as it's like, are you willing to work on it? Yeah. Now there's the things that are like, maybe you shouldn't work on this anymore. more like it you know what I mean I honestly think that you kind of hit the nail on the head there and

we pretty much can just end the podcast there thanks for tuning in everybody no but both people have to be willing to like one person yeah I feel like a lot of times in these marriages where are like one person gives up one person is like I've been working I've been working on this for so long yeah and you're not putting in any effort yeah so it's like what is the point anymore and I can see where you I mean heck I probably come to that conclusion if it was like if this wasn't a two-way street you know what I mean and so So obviously so many things in life complicated. I think kids are probably the biggest thing that complicated.

Yeah. Yeah, it's really sad you guys. I don't know if you knew this, but January is actually considered divorce month because there's so many divorces that happen after the holidays. And there's just a post-holiday spike in divorce inquiries that lawyers report. And they think this is because of like stress, finances, relationship strain. Also, we're going to put all of our sources that we talk about in the disqualification. description. We're not journalists. We're not experts. We'll bring on journalists and experts

sometimes of the show. We haven't been divorced either because we are only seven years in. Yeah. Or six and a half. Which is actually kind of terrifying because if you look at what the facts say, apparently the average length of marriage marriages like that end of divorce is eight years. So we we still have another year to get to the average, another year and a half. To get to the average? Yes. Wow. So the average is eight years. people bailed within like year one or two. Yeah, it says right here the fact is average marriage length before divorce in the U.S. is about eight years and two thirds of divorces in the U.S. are initiated by women,

which that was also both of those surprised. Both of those surprised me a lot. Really? I would have thought that men were the one initiating divorces. No, I think men are more prideful. Like they're like, I don't want to wave the white flag. Like, I don't be the one to call this. I also want to know, or men or women more likely to cheat.

that's actually a question that I want to know. Let me look that up. What do you think? Men. Why men? Because. Because why? I don't want to say this because I literally just sound always here how I don't want to be manhating.

They think with their peepee. Gosh, dang it, babe. You're right. So this is according to if studies.org, it's demographics of infidelity in America. And so according to this research, men are more likely to cheat. It also depends on like the age. So if you're looking at men in between the ages of, wait, what? This is interesting.

Okay, wait, let me take a screenshot of this graph. We'll have to throw it up on the screen. So this is a gender cheating gap, a graph that shows you when, like, are men or women more likely to cheat? So between the ages of 18 and 29, women are more likely to cheat. What? And then it changes. Yeah.

And then it changes to men for ages 30 to 39 and so on. Ew. Isn't that interesting? So this is a graph of like percentage report. having sex with someone other than their spouse while married, and it's higher for women for the age range that we're in. I bet these are women that aren't having kids. Having kids yet.

Oh. So you think that like once women have kids are less likely? Who's got the time? Who's got the time? When you have children, who's got the time to go sleep around? Who's got the will? Who has got the will and the desire? Okay.

You are right though because I think it says 18 to 29, but I think I think by age 29, if you look at this graph, it looks like it's moving. living closer and closer towards men cheating than women. And here's the thing. Here's why I think men hop up then. Because men are starting to get a little shallow. Their woman is going through so many body changes. And hormonal changes. So they're like, I got to bail and find someone that, you know.

Do you know what my theory is for the men? I think men are like, oh, like my wife is putting the kids first, which is true. I think a lot of couples fall in that trap. I was taking a much more shallow approach. I think they're just like, oh, they're. pregnant, postpartum, they're breastfeeding. Like, things aren't looking the same. And so they want, they want a new specimen.

According to the data, so legal professionals see a 20 to 30% increase in calls and divorce filings post holidays, you know, New Year. Who wants to tell the family that they're splitting up at Christmas dinner? 100%. Like, if, if you know it's coming. So say it's like October, right? And you're like, we're done. This is over.

Like, you're not going to do anything. You know that the holidays are coming up. You got Thanksgiving. You got Christmas, all these gatherings. October's still fine. I feel like that's probably, I feel like it starts to dip in November December. Yeah, I feel like November, December. People are like fed up and they're like, we'll wait until January.

We don't want to go through that uncomfortable conversation. But here's the thing. It's not like they made that decision most of the time probably in November or December. It's like it's from fractures for years and years. 100%. And that's why I think the most important muscle you can exercise in a marriage. is the resolution muscle. Every little conflict can be like potentially a little fracture in the marriage.

Yeah. And so those things, I think, are the things that add up to a divorce eventually rather than necessarily like one major event that just like, you know, just brought the whole thing down. We had a resolution last night. What was our resolution? Wait, what do you want to bring up? What did we? I feel fine bringing this up because it was me. I was clearly the problem.

Did we have a discreet? Oh, yes. Wait, yes. I know what you're talking about now. I was being royal fill in the blank. No, you literally, what did you say to me? No, no, no. I knew.

And here's the thing that's so frustrating is that in the moment the whole time this wheel is going. It's like a wheel going down a hill. It's like I see that we're picking up speed. I see that we're going down fast. And I know what's wrong. Couldn't stop it. Or you know what? Let's be honest.

Let me take responsibility here. I didn't choose to stop it until I was like, you know what? I need to remove myself. So then I just put my little headphones in after the kids went to bed, read my Kindle, and then I just sat and pondered. I was like, that was so unnecessary. That was way over dramatic. You were a monster for about an hour and a half. You're talking about myself? You're talking about myself. Okay. I was a little monster for about an hour to have. No, you actually handled it super well. I handled it well? Yeah. Thank you. You were just kind of like, I think you were just kind of like, this is.

crazy. So I don't even, I'm afraid to interact. You did go from zero to a hundred real quick. I turned into a pillow. It didn't have to do with you. It was just like everything in the moment. It just felt like so much and it actually wasn't that big of a deal, but it just felt like so much. And so once the kids went to bed, put my headphones on, I read my candle. And then finally I was like, let's go, let's go resolve this. And we went and had like a quick, it didn't even need to be a long combo. Because like we have this muscle of resolution. And I feel like that, like last night was like such a an example of like so much progress you know maybe early on in marriage it's like okay we would have had to like think about that for like a day and then be quiet

for like a day and then had like two days of like deep conversations and it's like now it's like we're able to like stop rethink come back together and you are so quick to like respond though to that i think we laughed we laughed together yeah you didn't ice me out like that was what was really fun that's actually i really love when we are able to like rekindle things and laugh about it because that's I want to say in the Gottman Institute they talk about how when couples are able to like rekindle their love and overcome a conflict with like laughter and like they they make the I forget the exact term. And then we made love.

Which is always great. That always makes everything just a little bit better. Could be a little awkward to talk about because our sister-in-law is in the room right now. Sorry, Adi. Oh gosh. Yeah. What is up with women and talking about sex? I bring it up so much.

I got to stop. You and your girlfriends talk about sex way more than me and my my dude friends. I know. I know. It's too much. And also why is it that you say you have girlfriends, but like guys are never like, yeah, my boyfriends. No dude is like. Yeah, they're like my boys. My bro my homies. No, I like to call them my girls. I honestly call my sister-in-laws my girls. I've started that recently. Why is it not gay for women to say that, but it is for guys. I don't get why that is. Sometimes you just throw me a question. I'm like, I don't know. The patriarchy. Yeah, but okay, you guys talk about sex all the time. Talk to me about that. Why is that a thing? It's, it's fun for. It's fun for. me to talk about. I get, but it's, what's interesting to me is like men and myself included, think about it probably 10 times more than you do. I think, I don't know. That's true. That's why I'm like, why aren't you talking about it. Yeah, I don't know why. Maybe we don't want to, maybe we don't want to do it. Maybe I don't want to talk to other men about. Maybe we don't want to talk about it. We don't want to talk to. Hey, you know what? I want to talk. Oh my gosh, Abby. Like, let's just talk about it. Let's not. No, see, I want to do it. Let's say we're going to,

but let's not. That's actually a really good point. You want to talk. I don't want to talk. I don't want to talk about it. I just want to do it. But I would love to talk about it with you. Like, that's kind of hot. I don't know. But like that's what, no, we're going too far now. Talk about the best time to laugh, though. That's how you know you've been married for a little bit longer than like the honeymoon stage is when you can just like laugh during it. And yes. And that's hilarious. And speaking. But some people don't like it when they laugh during intercourse. Both of us have definitely passed gas in the middle of of spicy time for sure. I don't know what's up. We're too comfortable around each other.

I thought we were talking with the honeymoon stage. Well, I thought you were talking about how, like, how we laugh, like, during those times. Yeah, anything can happen. Thank you to Rocket Money for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Is there a subscription that you've been meaning to cancel that you keep putting off? Or are you getting overwhelmed with managing your financial situation? Because if that's you, I've been there, and that's why Abby and I both use Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions,

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our home security bill quite a bit. It went from, I think it was like 50 or 60, down to 30 bucks. That's just one of many ways that Rocket Money can help you save money. And now that it's the beginning of the new year, it's a great time to take control of your finances. With Rocket Money, you also can receive real-time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills, refunds, and low balances. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join RocketMoney.com slash unplanned. That's rocketmoney.com slash unplanned. Rocketmoney.com slash unplanned. Let's talk about common hard periods. This is kind of like analyzing the different, the different times that people exit times for marriage. So okay, if you're looking at year one

through two, that's considered like the end of the honeymoon phase and the initial pretend phase fades revealing daily quirks and responsibilities leading to clashes over routines and expectations. I've heard of couples getting divorces in like one to two years, but I feel like that's pretty uncommon. Really? I want to say so. That's what I was going to say I thought was the highest. No,

I feel like the highest is like the seven-year itch that everyone talks about. Oh. Which this is, our seventh years this summer. Well, here's the thing. I don't count that. I already think we passed seven years because we were together for three years before.

True. But I think it's like... And we were like together together. But I think people are talking about like marriage, though, because it's like we weren't committed. Like, once you make that commitment.

I guess we're not to start going to therapy more. Well, I think it's great that we go to therapy because I think it's like getting an oil change on your car. Well, I was actually going to talk about that. I don't think everyone needs as much therapy as we need, but I think it's the fact that I'm going to transition into this later, but I think it's because of our occupation. Oh, that's really good. We need to be safeguarding it as.

We're literally talking about some of the most vulnerable details of our life on the internet. This is the reason why. It's because of you freaking do. Cash darn cameras. Gosh darned Mike. No, I say this jokingly because I think it's such a blessing that we get to work together. But then we also need to like literally safeguard the crap out of it because we do know that this is probably a liability to a marriage for sure. No, 100%. I think like we get in more arguments

about like filming schedules and content and like, like, I don't think we have arguments about stuff outside. Like I feel like work is where we have arguments in my opinion, right? Yeah. So that's why we're in therapy. But then also I think I noticed from my experience to talk. You kind of get over those things. Yeah, you do. But I think like, I think the hardest phase that we've ever been through. Well, we've had some different ups and downs. We've had family members loss. We had our miscarriage. carriage, we've had a lot of stuff. But I think from my experience, I think the hardest phase was like the newborn stage mixed with then dealing with two under two. Is that when most people exit? What's the statistics on that? Okay. So let's, yeah, let's keep talking about this. So that's year

one through two, end of the honeymoon stage. Then we have year three to five. Again, all of our sources that we're getting this information from in the description. Your three to five reality sets in. So you have disillusionment grows as reality hits, major disclosures. about finances, housing, and family planning often surface. Gosh, I mean, I'm, I feel so blessed, Abby, that you are a frugal queen and that you don't, obviously we spend more money now than we spent, you know, a couple of years ago. But I still like, I appreciate that like when you go and buy clothes, you'll be like, since I'm the one who like checks our rocket money and checks the numbers and make sure we're hitting our investment goals and hitting our savings goals, you're like,

hey, am I good to go spend, you know, might be like $500 at $500. Abercombe, be on clothes. I'll be like, oh, you know, that's what it usually is, right?

Like, clothes are expensive. And, and I appreciate how you, like, like, I think we like run purchases by each other,

which I like, I appreciate. Well, we have transparency in finances. Yeah. I think that's like, I, the best policy,

probably. There's random things. Like, I think I bought a mat that says, you know, take off your shoes and I don't think I ran

that purchase by you, which that ended up being the mat, the floor mat we have in our garage. The issue was not the cost of the mat You just hated the mat. It was just, I was like, people can keep their shoes on in my house.

Okay. But, yeah, I think we're pretty good at just, like, making sure we're communicating about that. And I think the communication aspect of marriage is huge. But we did have conflicts arise when it came to buying houses. Oh, yeah. So that is still related to finances into some capacity. But also it's like, yeah, this bigger picture thing of, like, we are establishing our life together, like, where and how we're going to do it. and what we intend for this to look like.

I can see where that... Because it's one thing to say these things when you're dating and engaged. But it's another thing when you've gone through life a little bit more, like you're allowed to change your mind. And I think that's what happens probably in that three to five years.

It's like, okay, well, I know we dreamed about having this many kids or we dreamed about starting now, but I'm not ready. Or I don't think we're where we're at financially to buy a house, but I think we are, blah, blah. I think that's a hard time. Big decisions.

If I think about the only money, quote unquote, fight that we've ever had, was probably buying the house that we're in now because we didn't technically need it, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was more. I wanted it. Abby just wanted it, which is fine. Like she, this is a hard work in women. She just launched a new podcast, guys.

Okay, go give her some love. But like, you know, it didn't see. It had more to do with the location. Yeah. And I think we're in a location that there's a lot more families. We're also not as isolated before. It was a better location for our kids. Yeah, which we've all talked about before.

But, you know, it wasn't necessarily a need. But that was like a hurdle in our relationship. We had to overcome. And we did. And we figured it out. I got my way. You're a good man. I love you so much.

You're a good man. Okay. So next, common hard periods. If we look at years five to eight, which that's what we're in right now. Okay. Okay. So it sounds like every single year is a hard period because you said one to two, three to five. five to eight well this this like timeline that I'm talking about right now is just like

pointing out the difficulties that you experience in every face oh okay okay and this is generalizing this is not everyone right like not everyone's having kids not everyone's doing the but this is yeah this is overgeneralizing what a lot of couples feel and I think they're probably like just speculating on data like why we see these yeah like jumps but yeah years five to eight a lot of couples experience high stress from child care differing parenting styles work-life balance resentment can peak it's funny work-life balance is why we had the argument that why that we had the little thing last night that was about because we you had worked late and I think that was frustrating you so I find that really interesting that it brings it's like it's like

it's like it knew our minds this this is just from the internet this is from website none of us are living unique lives yeah all of us are so much more like than we are different so yeah work-life balance and then resentment can peak coinciding with divorce spikes that's why the seven-year it's Matt, your foot is so distraught. Get that out of here. This is my foot. Okay. I apologize.

I'm going to move my foot down. You're welcome. I'm putting my dogs away, everybody. Sorry, Addy. Sorry. So yeah, that's where you get the seven-year itch. But, guys, this is very fascinating. Last but not least, year 10, according to this research, is peak dissatisfaction.

What? I was going to think that was the best year. A Brigham Young University study found the highest. dissatisfaction around this time as festering issues become major complaints, often linked to women feeling overwhelmed by chores and kids. This study could be biased. If this is from Brigham Young University, you know, I know a lot of LDS Mormon families, if you're 10 years in, you probably have like seven kids out of that point, right?

They didn't say that they were only studying people. Yeah, I'm guessing they're studying the entire U.S. They probably have a better population to study research. You know, I feel like we've gotten into a decent spot with two, but I'm like, man, as we grow our family. Well, they say you have to grieve your marriage that you had every time you have a new kid or anything, sometimes something big happens in your life. That marriage is done. A new marriage is starting.

You have to rebuild your marriage. You can't just try to carry the same marriage into that new phase of life. You heard that from John Maloney. Yes, I did. What would you say has been the hardest season to grieve and let go of and recognize, okay, we're moving forward. That part of our life is done. When we go first, I could tell you right away. I feel like I need to keep my private.

For me, it was like, like reality hit. Once we had Augie, because it was like such a whirlwind with like, we had, it was like, boom, Griffin. Like I didn't even feel like I got a chance to come up for air before like, oh, you're pregnant again with your second kid. I think around like when Augie was born, I had this like panic moment of like, oh my gosh, my life is not my own anymore. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I wish I would have had John Aloney there to be like, hey, it's going to be okay. He would have been like, yeah, it's done, brother. It's done, brother.

But guess what? There's good things in the future coming for you, you know? And like this stressful period of the newborn stage is temporary. This stressful period of having two essential newborns at the same time is temporary. Yeah. And that would have helped me out. But I think I, you know, I loved the idea of us like leaving Missouri, being on the beach in Hawaii, me surfing every day, seeing my smoking hot wife in a bikini all the time. Because we're going to the beach all the time.

I'm eating assayibals living in a little cute surf surfer shack on the beach. We had this amazing life. And then I'm like, I'm freaking living in the desert. And I've got two rug rats that I have to keep alive 24-7 and I don't have any time myself. That, like, freaked me out. But we got through it. Now I'm like fighting myself to not love my kids more than you because it's like it's so important that I love you and put you above our children because that's like the key to a happy, healthy relationship. That's a trap we can't fall into.

Yeah, you can't fall into that trap of loving your kids. Tony Robbins. Tony Robbins talked to us about that. And many people. And Arthur Brooks and John. No, but it's so refreshing because I do think that the culture is pulling you, especially moms, to put the kids first. You can't do that.

Put the kids first. And it's like, it's dangerous. It doesn't mean that you're not taking care of your children, taking really good care of your kids. But it means you're taking amazing care of your marriage as you're raising your children. Your kids want to see you put your spouse first. They do. That makes them feel safe.

And I agree. I felt that way as a kid when like, I mean, I've experienced that. And so I do think like, we can't circle back to like the hardest part for me. I think in our marriage was when we were just on completely different pages about like where we wanted to be. Yeah. Like location wise. Like, yeah. And I just felt so much guilt.

I talked about this on always here. But I felt so much guilt because I felt like I was in the way of you experiencing your dream life. Yeah. Because I wasn't. experiencing, like, I was like, I just don't think I can thrive here. And so just like being in that tough position of like, okay, where should we literally locate ourselves? Yeah, that was a hard season.

That was hard because it's just so hard when you're, you are on a completely different page with your spouse. Like you're like, I see you thriving, like basically like so happy and so like excited about life where you're at and just like me really trying to get on board. just like can't. Yeah. And I just felt so I like felt so guilty about that. And so that was like just a really selfless thing of you to do like that compromise of like that was a hard thing where it's like really compromise wasn't exactly possible. Yeah. Like it was either like one person gets their way or one person doesn't. You can't like we could split the difference. And that's part of it too.

Like yeah, I mean it's funny hearing you say that yeah, because like moving out of full I really wasn't a compromise or moving to this house wasn't really compromised. But I think there's times in marriage where you just have to fully abandon what you want. Well, I think that's where compromise comes. It's like, you get this one. I'm going to get this one. You get this one. You get this one.

You're going to always split the difference, you know. Yeah. But, yeah, I think that was the hardest. I think that's like that year three to five thing. Thank you to Oli Pop for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Oh, yeah. Oh, baby. It's Ollipop o'clock.

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including Walmart and Target. For more information, go to drinkollipop.com slash unplanned. I will say, this is a random thought I'm having right now, but if you yourself are going through a hard season in your relationship, I don't know why this always like just puts reality in perspective for me, but I love looking back at old videos of Abby and I if I'm ever in a season of, you know, just feeling overwhelmed or maybe we're having a disagreement that day. Right. If I ever look back at like old videos of us, it just kind of puts everything in perspective. And I'm like, man, we're these two kids.

We freaking love each other. We freaking love each other. We're these two just crazy, like infatuated individuals that sent it, got married in college. We were, how the heck legally do we even do that? But we did. I mean, like, we got married so young. we've adventured the world together and and it's always been about you like the entire reason

I ever even did this freaking YouTube channel was because of you like it's always been you so it just kind of puts it all into perspective for me yeah and um apparently like when we've talked to different experts about divorce when I've read books about what leads to marriage is ending oftentimes you have contempt contempt apparently is one of the largest indicators but there's also the aspect of couples not being able to remember the good days, not being able to remember a time where they were happy with their partner. And so that's why I like looking back at old videos, because it's, it kind of just tells your brain, er, you're wrong. Look at you. You're happy right here. You love your life right here. This can be you again. This is in store for you again. You're

just in a season or a very brief tiny little moment of time where you're frustrated. And this is, this is just a little blip. Life isn't perfect. Get over it. Figure it out. I'm lucky that I have a husband that sees life that way and see marriage that way and prioritizes it like that. And yeah, I do think back to me when we first got married. I'm like, gosh, we basically were gambling. Yeah, we kind of did. We really weren't because we had like had so many discussions. We had mentors. We had so many long, deep talks about like, why are we doing this? Like all these different things. But yeah, in the end, Like people, people change over time. And it's just important that you change together.

It was so interesting. Do you know which month Kim Kardashian and Kanye West got divorced? Guess what month? Probably January. It was actually February. But still, like it just again, beginning of the year. Now February, that's a sad one because there's Valentine's Day in there. I know.

Maybe Kim just decided that she didn't want to celebrate one more Valentine's Day with Kanye. Actually, that's sad. I also think he was going through a lot of mental health stuff, which like, I think was just hard on them. but I don't want to speculate about them. We're here to talk about us. Abby, what do you think are the most cited reasons for divorce? Cheating.

Yep, infidelity. Okay. I read this thing. Oh, wait, you already know what these are. I remember. Lack of communication, which that's so broad. You can't file for that. Poor communication.

Well, I think if you're unable to communicate effectively with your partner, that's just a disaster. No, no, no. I feel like everyone struggles with communication at times. Okay. And then it's like you just got to get. fact on, you know, I think that's like a, that's early down the road and then true. True.

Yeah. If you're dealing with some poor communication, go to freaking therapy, dude. I think there's, there's still so much. It's expensive. Well, yeah. Therapy is expensive. And a lot of, I feel like a lot of times one of the spouses is like super against it still, even nowadays.

Okay. Even, even just having friends that are also married, they put things into reality. That's true. Their struggles are the same. That's actually one of my best advice, pieces of advice for newlyweds is to surround yourself with other married people. Yeah. That, like, have marriages that you also admire.

Yes. No, I think when I'm hanging out with my buddies who I literally just met because they're the husbands of the people that you're friends at the gym. But they're your friends now. But they're my friends now. We all have the same problems. It's like, man, do you guys have that same stupid thing happen to you? Oh my gosh.

Yes. What's up with this? Your wife complained about that too? Oh, my gosh. We all have the same problems. You just need a gripe. I think a little bit of that is okay. every once in a while. No, I think it's healthy. But you don't want to like, you don't want to

trash, you want to speak highly of your spouse. Totally. Yeah, but I think it's okay. There's a way to do it. Yeah, there's, there's a, there's a healthy and unhealthy way. We're having this, this thing come up and like, like, that feels productive. And then one that's like, okay, you're just trying to bash on your wife. Abby pulled up an article about the occupations. Well, I was just curious about this because like more on the topic of thinking about, I'm like, gosh, this has been on my mind a recently thinking about the fact that a lot of people like couples and families that are on reality tv break apart why is that i think about every tlc family yes every you know we just had lydia plath on the show her parents got a divorce we've had uh you know a very sweet couple uh Zach why am i

blanking on their names right now Tori Tori Tori Tori the rolloffs Zach and tori rolloff uh... Zach's parents divorce divorce like all of these there it's just it's running rampant on the reality TV side. Social media couples too. It's starting to happen on the social media side too. Yes. So that's how I'm like obviously

these things haven't made it to the list yet. Also they're kind of niche still like so that it's not going to probably make it on a list like this but which was more reason why I said like that's why like I feel like we wouldn't really be in like we probably go to marriage therapy like once every three four weeks.

Yeah it's like a once a month thing that we do. But we probably wouldn't need that. I mean I don't think we would choose to do that if we didn't work together. Did you know what the percentage of marriage that end of divorces? It's like 50%. Yeah, it's like 40 to 50. So that's, yeah, that's what I read.

Okay, so here are the occupations. Some of them, I was like, yeah, that checks out. The other ones, I was pretty surprised by it. One of them was bartenders, which... That kind of makes sense. Yeah. If you're a bartender, I feel like you're in a flirtatious environment. This is also over generalization, but you're working late nights.

Yes. You're in a very casual atmosphere where alcohol is involved. People are dressed up, a lot of flirting, drunk, dressed up. People making dumb decisions when they're drunk. Like you can also, you have weird hours too, so it's easy to like. I feel like if you're a bartender, it'd be safer to be a bartender with your spouse. Like if your bartenders together, like you see your. Well, I'm sure there's a lot of bartenders and healthy, happy, committed relationships.

But this is just a pattern. True. Military supervisors. Interesting. Now this one is interesting because I would have thought, I know military in general doesn't have a great reputation for. Yeah, I have heard about that. I think there's a lot of people that get married. There's that being away from her spouse.

A lot of cheating goes on infidelity, but then there's also the aspect of if you get married in the military, you get more money from the military so people will get married and then divorce. Oh, yeah, I guess you're saying like maybe they weren't. They did it for the money. Yeah, yeah. But this was supervisors. So it says military supervisors have difficult high stress jobs that's in them all over the world.

So I guess it's the same reason, I guess, as like maybe non-supervisors, but people in the military experience. Next is medical and health care workers. I'm sure that's also related to probably... That's actually surprising to me. Stress and they work really like long, odd hours. Yeah, I guess working odd hours, especially if you're doing nights. You're never home.

You're never home. That's sad. Yeah, that's really sad. I mean, medical and health care workers sacrifice so much. Yeah. And so I can easily see where it's like, I can no longer prioritize this marriage because this occupation is like taking all of me. They have stats on these people?

Like, do they have any numbers associated with, like, the medical and healthcare workers or the bartenders? Even within the medical field, like, certain jobs, I think it's like brain surgeons, like, have a really high divorce rate. Why brain surgeons? I don't know. I can't, I'm not, I'm not here to speculate on the data. Yeah. But, and I don't even quote me on that. But I'm like, that's just what it's saying.

You're so pretty. It's distracting right now. That's ridiculous. You need to go ahead and, like, wear some sunglasses. You have really pretty eyes. Next is gaming service workers, which is like people. like running casino games and stuff. It's like, I feel like that's kind of in the same category as it's like bartenders, same

type of atmosphere. Flight attendants. Why would have flight attendants? I guess. They're traveling a lot. Yeah. They're in new locations. No one would tell them.

You could get away with it so easily. It's like I was in Belgium. No one saw me. So then who, which occupations have the best rates? Wait, let me finish these really quick. Marital success. This one, this one is weird to me. What?

Telemarketers and switchboard operators. What is a switchboard operator? Is that something from like the 1800s? I don't know. A switchboard? It says they work completely different jobs, but the details surrounding these jobs are the same. They send a chair all day and deal with phones. Telemarketers attempt to sell products or services and switchboard operators connect

callers to other people who can solve their problems. They're both speaking with people on the phone all day and people on the other end are likely stressed out or unhappy. Many people find these professions to be unfulfilling and nobody likes to spend the entire day getting yelled at by strangers. It's hard to cope with a job you don't like that leaves you feeling a exhausted at the end of the day. Okay, babe, that is my hot take, all right? I think way more than like the marriage itself or the relationship itself, I think outside factors play a much bigger

role in divorce than people like, than people think. It's not necessarily the marriage that's hard. It's that life is hard. Life is hard. Life is hard. And you're both individuals living life and you're showing up in your marriage and you're responding differently. Right. To the situation, which then can build resentment, which can lead to conflict, which can lead to one person being like, why are you reacting this way? I saw you smile. How are you happy right now? And we just, this thing just happened, right? So I think when life gets hard, I think, you know, we had Brooklyn and Bailey on the podcast two years ago. And something that they said was they don't think marriage is hard. They think life is hard. I would 100% agree with that. Totally. Yeah. I'll go through the rest of this

list really quick, though. But dancers and choreographers, this one surprised me, massage therapist. That's why that surprised you. That's funny. And this one's really weird. Textile knitting and weaving machine operators. These are some weird. Don't find yourself in that profession. If you want to be a textile and machine operator, don't do it.

You will, your relationship will likely end in the course. It says there's no clear correlation or speculation as to why this industry is so heavily affected by divorce. They're like, we don't know. But very interesting. And I feel like, you know, if we were to look onto reality TV and. Yeah. Social media people. So we've talked, we've talked a lot about divorce.

It seems, it seems like, we need to have some positive stats on marriage. Yeah, it seems like marriage is doomed. It's like, hey, is marriage even worth it? It's not even worth it. Why the heck? A lot of people listening into this, probably married, probably want to get married or know someone that's married. Is marriage worth it?

Well, before we get into the positive stuff, let's talk about great divorce. Great divorce is actually a trend. Going back to the negative. It's divorce rates for people that are like 50 plus. I mean, it's doubled. The rate of divorce and people that are 50 plus has doubled since 1990. What? While the rate for people that are 65 plus has nearly tripled, according to Pew Research.

Is that not crazy? Well, that's really sad. Yeah. So why is grave divorce increasing? Increased longevity. People live longer and are less willing to stay in unhappy marriages for decades, according to Purdue University. That's a weird way to analyze that. Generational.

I'm going to live at least 30 more years. Well, if your marriage sucks and you don't like it, I mean, I guess. But then the flip side of that is that they're saying that it's someone that's like 80 is like, well, I hate this person, but I'm going to die soon. So I'll just stay in it. That's a weird way to analyze that data in my opinion. And then we have the emptiness factor. Couples may realize they have little in common once the children leave their home. That's really sad.

That is sad. And I can see that happening. And that's why right now with us having kids, we put us first. We prioritize our marriage. marriage and we put us first we love each other more than the kids. It's something we have to constantly remind ourselves because it's so easy to slip into that. Well I think it's almost like an evolutionary thing where like your brain once you're it's like prioritizing your offspring and you're like I got a you know this is my legacy. This is what's going to keep spreading my DNA. You know.

We also have to clarify this means that it doesn't mean you get to be a bad parent. Oh no. Not at all. You're an amazing parent but I think it makes you a better parent when your kids see you loving your spouse. Right. Right. I agree. You can do both. You can do both. You can do both. You can do both. It makes you a better father and a better example to your young boys when you show them how to love their mom. Yeah, and you don't just tell them. You lead by example.

Your kids are watching you at all times. Yeah, and also I don't think that one has to come at the cost of the other. Yeah. Both can be important in the same breath. Yes. But with all of that negative news about divorce, it's very sad, very scary. Yeah, can you finally transition into the pause? You dangled that earlier.

These are some uplifting stats. about marriage. So marriage actually comes with higher thriving rates. Married people, especially ages 25 to 50, are significantly more likely to thrive. And then also there's a happiness boost, which this makes sense to me. Like I've heard of married couples because they're checking in on each other. They're making sure that the person's taking their medicine or going to therapy or getting checked out if they're sick. Like people live longer when they're married too. There's a bunch of data and research to support that. But not only doesn't make you live longer, but there's also there's research to support people being happier when they're married.

So married individuals report being significantly happier with some analysis is showing them 30 points happier than unmarried counterparts. Points, wow. I guess that's just, I guess the points is a percentage. And this is, again, research from Gallup and life satisfaction studies show married people report higher overall life satisfaction and happiness. Interesting. I love that.

I feel like that all is not surprising. Like that all makes sense. Yeah. So there's a lot of health benefits, a lot of positive, you know, feelings and emotions that you get with marriage. And I think while people can sometimes, like, it's easy to, when, when life's not going your way, just to find, find something to gripe about, oh, it's my marriage. This could be better. Homer. No, it's like maybe, maybe your life is just hard because life is hard and has nothing to do with your spouse at all. Or maybe it's, maybe you're the problem, too. Like, that's something, that's a reality I've had to face myself whenever I'm facing. a struggle or a challenge in our marriage and it's like, hey, how am I being a good spouse? That's very mature. What am I doing to love and serve Abby? Like if I want her to be this perfect person for me, maybe I first need to be this perfect person for her.

I actually have to go to the bathroom. Oh yeah. You can go to pee real quick. Well, guys, while Abby's taking a quick potty break, I do want to fill you in on a new segment we're going to try out today. We're playing agree to disagree. We've played this game for an entire episode before, but I actually want to try ending an episode with an agree to disagree relating to the topic of the episode today, which was divorce,

let us know what you think about this. And while you're letting us know, please be sure to hit the subscribe button. It really helps us out. And if you haven't left us a review before in our podcast, that would actually mean a lot. If you just go leave a quick review, it literally takes 10 seconds. You can just say, love it, and then tap how many stars you want to tap, and you're done. Have you been putting off starting a business that you've been dreaming about for years? Because we ourselves are actually starting up a new business this year. We're very excited. and we're doing it with today's sponsor of this portion of the episode, Shopify. Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person.

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Go to Shopify.com slash unplanned. That's Shopify.com slash unplanned. Here you're first this new year with Shopify by your side. All right, Abby. Welcome back. We've now made it to the of the show where we will be playing agree to disagree. That sounds fun. Let's play the game. That sounds fun to me too. First question or first agree to disagree prompt. Unhappiness alone is a valid reason for divorce.

I'm going to say strongly disagree. Yeah. I'm going to say strongly disagree. Your feelings don't tell you the truth. Your feelings lie to you all the time, all the time. Yeah. Your feelings are liars. Should I quote John Deloney one more time?

I wasn't a quote Arthur Brooks. Okay. How sick is that that that we get to interview these experts? on our show. We conned our way there. How the heck did we con our way here, man? High five, go us. But no, your feelings are made to keep you safe,

but they're not there to tell you the truth. Your feelings can go on all kinds of crazy roller coasters, valleys, mountains, and that's normal. We don't need to be alarmed at that. That doesn't mean we need to acknowledge them. We can honor them, validate them, but we cannot use that as like, it's saying that factor alone is making the same,

decision for me. If you make every decision in your life based on your feelings, you are living a rather aimless life. I love how when we chatted with Arthur, he talked about how we're gifted with this prefrontal cortex and we're supposed to use it. We're supposed to decipher all the feelings that we have and understand, do we agree with them? Like, is the feeling that I have valid? I mean, I mean, the reality is like we're allowed to feel all these. There's nothing wrong with feeling a certain way. Yeah. But, But it's what you do with that information. Yes.

Dangerous. That's like deciding that you're a monkey, right? Yeah. They just go based off their emotions. Like you're a three-year-old. A three-year-old just goes off of their feelings all the time. Yeah. Like what separates you a grown-up with a developed prefrontal cortex from a three-year-old if you're

just going to go off of your feelings all the time? It's complex decision-making. So I agree. I think that's really good. Next agree-disagree prompt. Marriage should be hard to leave. I'm going to say agree. Yeah.

I'm going to say agree. I almost said disagree. because I think like for women or I guess there's men too that can be stuck in a domestic violence situation. They definitely need to get out. Like that's not safe for them or the kids. Either way though, it's hard though. If you marry someone assuming like marriage is forever to have to rewrite the rest of your life. Yeah.

That should be hard. Yeah. I think it is hard. I think it's hard for a reason. I think that's why you need to put so much thought and care and time into the decision to get married. And get this. Staying married is hard too. Yeah.

Life is hard. So you got to choose your hard. Right. There's no way to get over the fact that you're going to suffer and struggle and life is going to be hard. And that's a sad reality. But it's like, I think what makes it all worth it is having a purpose. You know, finding something that gets you up in the morning. Maybe it's a charity that you want to support.

Maybe it's a certain belief system that you embody and you want to, you know, share with others and share the joy that you have. But you have to find like what that purpose is in your life. I think that's how you approach the hardship of life. Of course. I truly believe that like life is hard marriages. It's okay to stay together for the kids. I'm gonna say disagree. Oh, I was gonna say agree.

Oh, really? Why are you saying agree? That's interesting. Well, I feel like maybe at times where it's like, okay, it feels like we're not like the, I don't, I'm not having fun with you. I'm not feeling happy around you, but we have kids together. I know that's gonna be really hard for them. If you say in those like really like deep, deeply low points, I feel like anything that you can hold on to stay and that gives you a reason to work on it, is valid. I guess I'm going from the standpoint of things being very toxic.

You know, maybe they're being, maybe not dangerous, but just like words being said, arguments that the kids are witnessing. It's just not a good environment for the reason. Yeah, I agree with that. That's where I would be like, you need to get out, you know? Yeah, I agree with that. And look, like, arguments are going to happen. Our kids have seen us argue.

There was a time in the car where we were not even arguing at all, but we were just talking about something. Yeah, they rarely see us argue. We were getting, but I think it's good for them to see you disagree. Right. Because then you show them how you resolve the conflict and then they learn conflict resolution from you. Yeah, but sometimes. But no, it was funny though because I think we've talked about this, but we were in the car and just getting passionate about something we were talking about.

And Augie, thanks for arguing. He goes, be nice. Yeah, we were like laughing. Be nice, dad, dad. Be nice, mama. And we started busting out laughing. We were just making jokes. Yeah, I thought that was so funny.

I think it's just because we were like getting loud. Next we have divorces two normalized in 2026. What are you saying? I'm saying disagree. I feel like I'm coming from such a place of like, I'm so biased to the fact that like we have a good, healthy marriage. So you're going to say agree? I was going to say agree, but then I'm also like, I've never been in like a terrible marriage. Yeah. And so I don't want to just be like, yeah, it's too normal. Just stick it out. And it's like, you don't understand. Yeah. The person I'm married to is a monster or, you know. Yeah. Well, I think, I think, yeah, to be to be a devil's advocate, I think that we've been through terrible times in marriage.

I think we've experienced terrible things in marriage. But I think it's immature and, like, just simply untrue to, like, prescribe all those struggles to, like, your partner or the relationship. Again, because life is hard. Marriage isn't hard. It comes down to life being hard. But, yeah, I do think, I don't know. I do think just about every marriage is salvageable. I would agree with that.

So it's like. Yeah, there's people that have, like, pretty effed up marriages. You have to really set your pride of. side and seek professional help. Yeah. So yeah, maybe it is too normalized. Emphasis on the professional help too because I think like if you're, yeah, if stuff is pretty effed up and you're not going to professional help, like you get a professional.

But also that's easier said than done. Like we're fortunate where we can afford therapy. Therapy's expensive. That's what I'm saying. You know? So if that's you, I mean, I know there are resources where there's like free therapies. Oftentimes it's with different religious institutions or organizations. But heck, I think that's even better than nothing.

Of course. But yeah, I don't know. That is true, though. Like, not everyone can afford therapy. So I think we definitely are speaking from a place of privilege because we, you know, therapy is expensive. Therapy is expensive. Okay.

Agree to disagree. Social media encourages divorce. Yeah, I would agree with that. 100% actually. Strongly agree. Yeah, I feel like there's been times, gosh, we had a video that went, got on the wrong side of YouTube shorts where we were making a video about Thanksgiving and then Abby came back from the neighbors to like bring the turkey or something and all the comments were like

she's totally screwing the neighbor. She's totally investing around. Like everyone hated you and it was and it was like. This is the first time I'm learning about this. Well, no, you knew about it. I took off the comments. This was back in 2021. But it's just like, it's crazy how things can end up on the wrong side of the internet and people can just spin a narrative out of nothing. It's happened for both of us. Oh yeah. People are just so quick to just be like, leave her, leave him. Yeah. She's for the streets. He's terrible. Drop him. It's like this is. This is. like people. It's so quick. If I had a dollar for every comment or like on a comment for people that told you to leave me, I would have a lot of dollars. Well, that's how you just know that it's just like it's so baseless. I think it's because if, yeah. I think it's because people.

You're a rock star husband. Like you're an amazing husband. And you're an amazing wife. I think people get frustrated with their own life circumstance and they look at a very small snippet of someone else's life. And by saying like leave. Maybe they want to leave. Maybe they're in an unhealthy marriage and they want to leave, but they don't have the courage to get out.

So I think it could probably come from that. It could probably come from people projecting where they've known someone. I think it just comes from also just like. There's so many reasons. Yeah, like culture and society doesn't necessarily promote perseverance in a marriage or perseverance, honestly, I would say in general. What about this one? Modern marriage is harder than marriages of the past. Agree to disagree.

I'm going to say disagree. I'm going to say disagree. It feels out of touch to say agree. Oh, I think life was just way harder in the past. Like, I think people literally were like hunting for their food. To be the devil's advocate, you could make the argument then that like marriage then now became, because I feel like humans will create problems. We create problems for ourselves.

And so it's like, well, if life isn't as hard now, I guess I got to find more problems in. Seriously. No, that's why everyone's chronically online. Like we create problems at nothing on the internet. I don't think it's harder for sure. If anything, it might be like a little easier because there's a lot more resources, I would say. Oh yeah, totally. There's research, like if you can sift through the information overload, there's, there's definitely resources out there to help support your marriage. There's, there's whole YouTube channels that aren't like, like, this is just, we're just two people like we're a couple chatting about this. Like there's resources of people that actually are actual have like gone to decades of school and could give you like, we're just, we're just talking about this. We're creating conversation, but there's there's a lot of information that's helpful out there. Um, okay. Commitment matters more. in marriage than compatibility matters more. Strongly agree. Oh, that's hot. Hey, I like that. Okay,

why does commitment matter more than compatibility? Because I was going to say, agree. I think for a little bit, I was like, do I disagree? Because compatibility matters. But I think at the end of the day, it matters so much more that you committed. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah. Speak to me about that. Talk to me about that. First of all, humans are not like, we're not stagnant creatures. Yeah. Like, we are constantly changing and evolving. So like, you could give me a compatibility test with you when we were 17 years old, you could give me one now, you could give me one. Like, and I'm sure those results would fluctuate greatly. Yeah.

And, like, what matters is that we've committed to each other. Yeah. And through that commitment, we're also shaping one another. Yeah. And therefore becoming more compatible to each other. Yeah. But that's because we committed. Did that make any sense or did I just?

I think I followed that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. No. Yeah. I think that the commitment, like, yeah. but by definition makes you more compatible. No, I don't think that's true.

I think you could commit and also stay stuck in your ways and not work on your marriage. We're like, but we're committed to this. And that's where you find the marriages that you're like, we're staying for the kids. We absolutely are going at each other's neck every day. Yeah. But I don't think that necessarily means the same thing. But it's also like you can commit and then also committing to the every day. But it's like are you even for the kids if you're fighting all the time because your kids want to see you guys in love.

They want to see you getting along. Yeah, that's a different conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I like where you're going. Sorry, not to dismiss what you said. That is true, but that's not exactly the point I was making. I like the way.

Okay, restate the point you're making. Go. It's one thing to commit the day of your wedding. Okay. And say, like, we are committed and we're staying together no matter what. And then go about the rest of your marriage and not change anything about yourself as a person and then go out of each other's next every day. It's another thing to commit every single day to your marriage.

And therefore, I say when you commit every single day, you're growing in compatibility. And that first example, you're not growing in compatibility. I like it. You're just staying committed. That reminds me of that famous quote by a president that I can't think of their name of right now, but it's like, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Wow, that's profound. Flip that around.

Flip that around. That's a famous quote by a president. I forget which one. Probably like Teddy Roosevelt. Ask not what your spouse can do for you, but what you can do for your spouse. I think if you wake up every day and you ask yourself the question, how can I serve and love my spouse today? I think you're going to end up with a really happy marriage. If you're both truthfully, honestly doing that, that's a really good spot to be. Incredible.

I feel like you'd be stronger than 90% of marriages if you do that. 100%. I'm throwing stats out there left and right. Okay. Next up, we have marriage is unrealistic because people change over time. Strongly disagree. Let's go. And I think because people change over time is why marriage is so freaking cool.

Well, and that's why it can grow stronger. And that's why it can, and it should grow stronger. Yeah. you're going to change so why not choose to change in a direction that you want to go in. Yeah. I think about a tree with their roots. They grow around each other. Yeah.

Intertwine your roots. They keep getting deeper, but they're intertwined. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. I love you. Thank you're super hot. Thank you.

And next we have. Divorce is more common today because people give up faster. I'm going to say disagree. What are you going to say? I'll agree. You agree? Well, I think I do because. First of all, if we're looking at history, it wasn't even an option for women for so long.

That's a good point. So it's like, I mean, and I feel like give up is given such a negative connotation. But it's like, no, I genuinely give up because this person is not there for me. The reason I said disagree is I think if you look at history, people literally couldn't get divorced in the back. In the past, well, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said people give it faster today. Yeah. I'm confused. Am I overthinking this?

Next question. That's it. We hit all of them. Okay. Now we're going to move on to user submitting questions. Thank you to everyone. That was actually really fun. I feel like we should bring that segment back. If you guys want us to bring that segment back, let us know in the comments because agree to disagree is a really fun game to play. First question we have from this is Gabriella. What are some things you guys did to relight the spark when things felt hard? Fake it until you make it. Honestly, yeah. No, that's really good. That's really, really good. Because I think that like time heals, I think just you just decide like this. This sucks, but I'm going to keep going forward. I'm going to give a silly example, but trust me when I say that this can be used in deeper scenarios. So sometimes when we're mad at each other, we've talked about this a lot, we'll play a car game together. We'll play Monopoly deal. And that is an example of faking it until you make it because you're doing an activity together. There's so many things about it, like why that's good.

Yes. But also just like, hey, we're playing a game together. You're not thinking about whatever you were mad about or all the things that were upsetting you. but you have a common shared goal of playing this game technically against each other but this probably wouldn't work if you're really competitive people but in that point like it's a way of faking it until you're making it because we're playing games inherently is something you do with friends people you're you enjoy and so yeah i think pretty soon you'll find yourself in a much happier place together i agree i agree i think i think fake it too make it is a real thing i or there's an i heard of another thing it's

Sounds so cheesy. Another one is believe it till you achieve it. Believe that your marriage is going to work till you achieve that marriage. We also have, do y'all think it's wrong for people to get back together after divorce? Absolutely not. If you think you can work it out, oh my gosh, go back. I think that could be a very good thing. But I think you might need to make some changes from, there needs to be some serious change from what the relationship was before. Yeah, do a lot of reconstructing before you dive back in. This question is really good. Actually, goes right in line what we talked about earlier. Why do you feel... Actually, I'm sorry to interrupt. That does make me very... I'm very curious now what the rates are divorced after you remarry the same person. Oh.

Someone let us know in the comments. I would imagine it's high. Yeah. The success rate is low. Yeah. The success rate is low. Yeah. Why do you feel like a lot of influencer couples get divorced?

So many people are commenting and making videos. videos on their marriage and it's that's not healthy yeah it's a day it's dangerous it's a dangerous game to like I honestly you guys like I think you know I don't look at any of that schnaz that and honestly I'll just be real with you guys that's why like I I abby and I are having this conversation today because I feel like our marriage is in a very healthy happy good spot so I feel comfortable I think we feel comfortable to talk about such a taboo controversial topic but like I really like doing guest episodes because I like to talk about other people, not myself. Yeah.

You know? It's not healthy. Yeah, it's not healthy. It can definitely get unhealthy when you put yourself out there. Like think about it. If you yourself had millions of people commenting about your life and your spouse and your partner and saying, you know, positive negative negative things about you and the other person and then you intermixed pride with that. You intermix like fame with that. You never mix money with that.

It can get really complicated. Yeah. It's only dangerous if you drink it though. Because I don't, I don't, I don't partake in that shniz-niz. Yeah, I think that's why you can't let the money and fame go to your head for any person that's involved in entertainment at all. And I think that can, I think that can cause problems in marriages too. Yeah.

Okay, thoughts on separating before officially divorcing? Maybe a good idea. Probably. Yeah, just to like, just to really think it through. Like, is this actually what I want? And maybe you can do some independent healing and then show up differently in your marriage. How do you settle debts related to gambling in a divorce? My gosh.

I don't know what you would do with that. probably hire an accountant to look through everything. No, I think what you got to do first is make sure your spouse doesn't have access to your credit. You got to cut them off. Freeze your credit, cut them off, make sure that you're keeping yourself and your kids safe. Because if you're married to someone with a gambling addiction or a money issue, they could be ruining your credit, your kids credit. They could be ruining you financially. So you've got to really take steps to protect yourself.

And if you don't know what to do, find someone a trusted friend, colleague, maybe somebody at work, someone at your church. synagogue, whatever, to help walk alongside you. Because I really do believe that there are so many good people out there that if you tell them what's going on, they would love to help you. Oh, yeah. And last question is, have you ever considered it? We have answered this before. We've answered this. Oh, have we ever considered divorce? Yeah. We've, like, considered it in our heads. We've never, like, legitimately gone through with anything like that. And well, not even close. Yeah, not even close. Well, we've got to be honest. I mean, has the thought entered your head? And yeah.

But I think it's good. There's a really great example of emotions, not giving them the driver's seat. Yeah, I think it's too. Like, if you allow that thought to enter your head and you really think it through, I think, I think it also will challenge you to look at yourself and say like, am I, I have all these expectations for my spouse. What about me? Am I holding on my end of the deal?

And I think, I think all these things are really good to talk through therapy. But we've, we've thought about it. We've never actually done it. We love each other. And I feel so, so lucky that I get to be married to such a beautiful, loving, kind woman. That's just an amazing friend, an amazing mom, an amazing public figure. You're a great example.

There's so many women out there. I really do believe that. Now I'm embarrassed. I think you give back a lot. And I love that you are always thinking about others. You're sweet. So I love you. You're an awesome husband.

And I'm really grateful that we're both committed to constantly working on us. Yeah. and constantly committed also to that like putting each other higher than ourselves that's right that's essentially like what marriage is it's like 100% 100% you before me and we before me that's right well you guys thank you for tuning in um this was a good messy real unfiltered combo about marriage if you want more conversations like this less know in the comments and again thank you to everyone that subscribed and left a review on spotify or apple it really means so much to us we'll see in the next episode Love you, babe.

I love you. I love you, baby. See you.