The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Body language expert: This kills your marriage & warning signs you shouldn’t ignore

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Can a single behaviour predict divorce with 93.6% accuracy? According to body language expert Vanessa Van Edwards, yes. In this episode, we unpack the silent cues that can make or break your marriage, the three fights every couple has, and why resentment is the real relationship killer. Plus, Vanessa shares how Botox might actually change your emotions, her journey from awkwardness to confidence, and the surprising science behind listening. This episode is sponsored by Chime, Hungryroot & Hiya. Chime: Make progress towards a better financial future with Chime. Get started today https://chime.com/UNPLANNED. Hungryroot: Visit https://hungryroot.com/unplanned and use code UNPLANNED to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice. Hiya: Go to https://hiyahealth.com/UNPLANNED and receive 50% off your first order. Get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Are you crazy? Vanessa Van Edwards is a body language expert and recovering awkward person her book cues Appeared on the Wall Street Journal's bestseller list and she routinely consults for top companies like Google and Amazon Let's talk about the signs of Botox. It inhibits your emotional expression and it also changes your emotional feeling I did my anger lines. You know what? I feel less angry. You're justifying Botox in a way The one predictor of divorce he can tell you if a couple will get divorced by watching a silent video of them with 93.6% accuracy they'll get divorced. That's crazy. A lot of people, they're like, why am I not charismatic? Why do I feel not likable? Why do I feel not memorable?

It's actually because you are shutting down your nonverbal cues. It would actually help you the most. Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome to Unplanned. Is it okay if I give you a hug? I heard your hugger. Yes, yes. Oh my gosh, yes. I love the hug. So I was so curious how you'd react to that because you've said before that you botched

a pitch when you tried to hug the producer who said verbally that they did not like hugs. Yeah, I was like, let me come in for a hug. I'm a hugger. And he goes, I'm not. And I just died inside, just like major cringe. I've also ruined an interview when someone came in for a fist bump, like I show you, came in for a fist bump,

and then I just hugged. I went like that. No. I did. I'm a recovering awkward person, and sometimes I mess that up. I resonate like that. No. I did. I'm a recovering awkward person and sometimes I mess that up. I resonate with you so much because that is me. For a long time I tried to hide my awkwardness.

I felt like I had to impress people and I had to be cool and I would hide the fact that I felt awkward and I was social overthinking all the time. And then at one point I was like, I'm so tired of trying to pretend that I'm too cool and I'm so tired of hiding it. I'm just gonna say that I'm awkward

and I'm gonna say that I'm a recovering awkward person and I'll tell you, I found my people. Like you and I are like, we're gonna be friends. And so I was at this party, I had this turning point. It was a party in Austin and Austin has a lot of cool people. Like people you would probably know. And the host goes, we're gonna stand in a circle and we're all going to introduce ourselves so that we can meet each other.

Okay. Already I'm like sweating, right? I'm like, good, good, good. Circle of introducing ourselves. So we're standing in a circle. And I'm not joking. The first person is like, I'm a billionaire and I've changed the world. And the second person is like, I cure cancer.

And the third person is like, I cure cancer. And the third person is like, I'm gonna end hunger. And the fourth person is like, I'm really famous. And then it was my turn. It's getting around to me and I'm just like, oh no, I'm a YouTuber. Like what do I say? If I were in that situation, I'd probably go, I got famous off of doing TikTok dances

and then see how they would react because it's actually true. Yes, and so I think that is it. Is I think like true and honest and not trying to be anything you're not. So I was like, my name is Vanessa and I'm a recovering awkward person. And the whole circle laughed and like took a deep breath

and I said, I help awkward people communicate on YouTube. Great. And it was amazing because then every single person after me said I'm also, except one, I'm also recovering awkward person and afterwards everyone came up to me. Not the billionaire, not the cancer curing person. And it was like I found my people. And so I think like we just got to be who we are and say like, I'm awkward, or I'm an over thinker, or I'm messy, or I'm crazy today. Like I think that sometimes like just saying it, like that's why I think like, if I hadn't done that, maybe it would have taken us longer to get along. So my dad, I don't want to spill stuff, but basically I saw my dad go through some job

losses as a kid. And so my framework for people liking me or being successful was, oh, if I can make enough money that'll like make my life perfect. I was the most depressed I've ever been when I had the most money I ever had, which was really weird. So to hear you say that is really encouraging because people didn't go up to the billionaire. They didn't go up to the billionaire. That's it. They didn't go up to the billionaire. Like in my head, it's like, oh, the billionaire is the one who is, that matters the most. No, they don't. Yes. There's the person too. And people came up to you

because they, they connected to you because you were vulnerable and you were open to sharing real stuff, which made people like you. I also think the richest people I know are the most lonely people that I know. Wow. And there's something there, I think, and I don't understand it. I don't understand why it's happening, but I think it's something to note that sometimes the richer you are,

the more powerful you are, the more impressive you are, the less people feel they can connect to you. Yeah. Like people didn't wanna go up to the billionaire because like, you know, like, oh my gosh, like they're to you. Yeah. Like people didn't want to go up to the billionaire because like, oh my gosh, they're above me. Yeah. Even though he didn't give that vibe at all, it was like there was a barrier there.

And so I think we should focus less on being impressive and more on finding our people. Like that's the intention that we should have. There's a, can I do a, can I share a study that I just love? Yes. That informed this. This doesn't come from me making it. There's a study that I found a, can I share a study that I just love? Yes. Yes. That informed this. This doesn't come from me making, there's a study that I found, I love science, I love research and research often gives me confidence to try something

different and I've always wondered about popularity and likeability because I've never felt popular, I've never felt very likable. And so I read this study and it was by a researcher who wanted to study the popular kids, like the popular kids in high school. And so he went to thousands of high school students across a variety of schools, and he looked for patterns of why some kids were popular and some weren't. And he tested a ton of variables here, like everything you would think of, like the funniest kid, the most extroverted kid, the athlete, the one with the highest GPA. None of those mattered. There were kids that were athletic or GPA, but across all the grades and all the schools,

there was only one commonality, and it was that the most popular kids had the longest list of people they liked. In other words, we are in control of our likeability, and it all comes down to not being the funniest or the smartest or the prettiest or the most athletic. It's do you like the people you meet? Are you searching to like the people you meet? The more you aggressively like people, the more likable you become. And it happened in these micro moments of connection that in the hallway, they were like, hey, Jaren, hey, Sarah, good to see you, Jen. These little conversations where they liked everyone. And

so they became more likeable. And that was like such a game changer for me because it meant when I go to a party or an event, all I have to do is try to like this person as much as I possibly can. All I have to do is try to search for something authentically and genuinely that I like about them and if that makes me more likeable, great. Otherwise, the conversation is still a success. What's the science behind that? Because aren't, I guess, are people seeing a confident person, right? I'm guessing the person that's likeable is probably very confident.

So are people seeing this confident person and then going, man, I want to be around them. I want what they have. I don't feel confident. So I want to if maybe if I'm spending more time with them, I can be more like them. OK, it could be confidence. I actually think it's even something deeper than that and more selfish, which is we think we're pretty great, like our opinions. If someone likes us, we're like, well, they have good taste.

I wouldn't be around them. I think there's like this little bit of like, we're unsure. And if someone likes us and wants to belong and hang out with us, we're like, well, that's pretty great. That's easy. I'm going to like them back. It's like almost an easier way of interacting. And so like going into interaction, being like, I'm going to aggressively like people. It makes you feel belonging. And like, what a gift you can give to someone to like assume liking,

to not make someone work for it, to not make someone try to impress you or earn it, that you're just gonna give them the grace of liking them for who they are, and you're gonna assume likability, it's such a powerful way to interact, and that changed my interactions with people. I like that too, because then the focus is less on yourself and your own behaviors, which can get hard to manage

when you're in a conversation, you're like, oh, I have to do this, that, and the other. It's like you're actively listening and focused on the other person. It's true. It tricks, so like I'm a social over thinker. Like I'll overthink what I'm gonna say or what I did say. But when I'm like, oh no, this is about them.

This isn't about you. Don't worry about what you're gonna say. Just like them, like them, like them. It's like a trick. It like tricks you into stop not being so selfish, not thinking about yourself so much. So it totally is. It like shuts down those thoughts. It's like a trick, it like tricks you into stop not being so selfish, not thinking about yourself so much. So it totally is, it like shuts down those thoughts.

It's weird how wanting people to like you does the opposite. It does. I think it does. Because I've seen that in my life. Like the more desperate I am for people to like me, the more people don't like me, which is so weird. And then when I'm just like, F it, dude, like like me, which is so weird. Yes, it's so true. And then when I'm just like, F it, dude.

I'm so sick of trying this. And I'm like, here's my baggage. I'm F'd up. I'm weird. Yes. And everyone's like, wow, we like you, dude. Yes. And it's like, what?

What? Yes. I met my husband when I was on a boy diet. I was on a boy diet. This is when I was, my husband and I were college sweethearts. We were together for like 18 years. And I was like, you know. This is when I was, my husband and I were college sweethearts, we were together for like 18 years. And I was like, you know, like dating and trying. I was trying and trying and trying to get, you know,

boys to like me. And I was like, I'm on a boy diet. No more boys. Just hanging out with my girlfriends, just focusing on my schoolwork. I was in college at the time. And then my husband, just like a beautiful man comes out and I'm like, nope, nope, I'm on a boy diet, nope.

And so I actively, he'll tell you, I actively tried to ignore him. And I tried to not have him like me because I was like, I'm on a boy diet. And then of course, you know, love of my life. I hear that so often. So what was it? About him?

What made you break your diet? Or what made him, like, was there something that he saw in you by you just being your own self that made him be a suitable partner for you? I don't know. All I know is that I couldn't not be with him. You know, like I was like, no, I shouldn't do this. But then I was like, oh,

but I just love spending time with him. And he's so great. And like, I feel so comfortable around him. I couldn't not be with him. So we were friends for like three months because I was like, no. And then finally on my 21st birthday, we were on Mount Everest together and he brought a little bottle of champagne in his backpack to Mount Everest.

We're like, you know, 13,000 feet above sea level. We're like, I'm like, you know, altitude sickness, everything. I'm like oxygen and he's like, I really like you. And he like gives me and I was like, oh my goodness. Yes. I mean, how do you say no? You know, I'm not Everest. Well, like gives me and I was like, oh my goodness. Yes I mean, how do you say no, you know, yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's crazy Everest Everest. Yeah, whose idea was that his okay? Okay, okay Your pressure was like anything you want

Because you've mentioned like making friends and finding people that you connect with you need to figure out their allergies To know if you if you connect yes So like did you did you just kind of ignore one of your allergies just to go to Everest and impress this guy? No, okay So this is I think if if you are looking for even friends or partner this works for either one is I think we try to be appealing to everyone, right? And that never works. That's why you go on so many bad dates or you have bad relationships or you hang out with a friend but you feel ambivalent about them, which is actually the worst that you

can feel about someone. You're like, I don't know if I want to hang out with them. Like should I cancel? That is not a friend you should spend time with because it means you feel ambivalent. You should only have people in your life who are like, I cannot wait to spend time with them. I can't not hang out with them. And so I think that China actually informed my ideas about this allergy in that I was

studying abroad in China. And if you're studying abroad in China, especially in 2006, you're a certain kind of person, right? Like you're a certain kind of student. So the people who were on my study abroad program, my best man at my wedding and my husband, because long time friends, because it attracted a certain type of person. So just even being there, I was with the right kinds of people who were like me. I think that with friends and when people think about dating,

I'm like, you wanna create allergies for the people that you don't want. So for example, one of my friends is a vegan, and I'm not a vegan, but she's a vegan, and she was going on all these mediocre dates, and she was like, yeah, I just don't know if it's a vegan, and I'm not a vegan, but she's a vegan, and she was going on all these mediocre dates, and she was like, yeah, I just don't know if it's gonna work, and I'm like, did you tell them that you're vegan?

She's like, well, not to the third date, and that never goes well. I'm like, no, you should have your dating profile be like, I'm a proud vegan. That way you're gonna have less people that you appeal to, but you're gonna find your person way, way faster. You're gonna find another proud vegan.

So look at your dating profile, look at your friends. like what are the allergies of someone you don't want? Right, like that's actually good to broadcast that so you can filter, the filter goes way faster to find your person. Why are people so afraid to say that they're vegan or to say that they don't like sports? Right, right. Like why are people so afraid to say those things?

I think fundamentally, we feel like the more people who like us, the safer we are. This goes back to our caveman instincts. We used to survive. We had to be social. And so if everyone liked you, you were safer. They'd share food with you. They'd share their hunt with you. They'd share their fire with you.

And so this remains even though that doesn't serve us. It doesn't serve us to have everyone like us. And also on social media, more is better. Yeah. More likes, more follows, more hearts, more is better. And so I actually want to go back to a different kind of idea, which is like less is better. I would rather you feel very strongly about a few people than kind of okay and ambivalent about lots of people.

Like it's, you have to fight that caveman instinct because it actually isn't serving you. Is this something that you've already begun like having conversations with your daughter that's in school? Or does that play a role not quite yet? So my eldest daughter is six and a half, she's in first grade and friendships are already hard. Why do I feel like that's more of a girl thing earlier on?

Is it? I don't know, I have two girls, I have a two year old and six and a half year old. What is really, really hard, and this is like very personal, but like I had a lot of awkwardness all through school, especially in first grade. And like it is my greatest wish for her not to have that. And so when she comes home and she's like, I don't have friends or, you know, Kai doesn't like me.

Like it crushes me because I feel like it's maybe my fault. Like maybe I like genetically gave it to her and so it's really hard. I don't know if I have an answer to that but I know that I talked to her about friendship like it's a vitamin for her. I'm like the friends that you make, the girls that you're hanging out with, the boys that you're making friends with, like these are really important for your soul. They're really important for you. So let's make sure that you're having fun with them

So like even after our play date, I'll be like was that fun Did you feel like you wanted to spend more time with them? Did you feel like they like you? Do you like them? Like the questions I'm asking her are like does this person fulfill you? Versus like oh how many friends you have you're so popular. Yeah, and so we're trying like, oh, how many friends do you have? You're so popular. Yeah. And so we're trying. You know what's funny is I've learned so much

about making friends with Abby or making friends from Abby because Abby's so good at making friends and she's so likable and she's so emotionally intelligent. And I asked her like a question like that. I was like, do you like think about what other people think about you? And she kind of just responded with I'm actually just thinking about if I like them like she her her her go-to is do I like these people?

It's not do they think I'm cool Literally going consciously being like do I like this person like no that's so judgmental I had to do some digging, separating, and be like, do I like this? Well, I think it's because you're in a very emotionally healthy place. I don't know. It seems like you're just, yeah, in a really healthy state

of mind where you aren't worried about what people think about you because you are comfortable as you are. Thanks, babe. That's like a very healthy place to be. I agree. Also, like, you ask yourself, do I truly like this person? as you are. Thanks babe. That's like a very healthy place to be. I agree. Also like you're, you ask yourself, do I truly like this person? You're fighting against toxic people.

And toxic people will destroy your energy. Yeah. Toxic people also hide. Toxic people are not often the obvious ones, right? Like we know who's mean or who's not a good person. Those are not the people who are the most damaging. People who are the most damaging are passive aggressive people, are people who gaslight you,

are people who are dream killers and they undermine your success. So like for example, if you have someone who you share good news and they ask questions that make you doubt your good news, that is not someone who's supportive of you. And that often, it tricks us. So you asking yourself, do I like this person?

Do I have fun with this person? We have to do that as adults because otherwise we have friendships by default. And friendships by default do not serve us. So there's a lot of big words there like gaslighting and what was the other word? Toxic and general. And passive aggressive.

Passive aggressive. How, what are tangible ways that we can identify that in people? Yeah, okay, so I believe in dream builders and dream killers. Like I think there's like two camps of people. You have people in your life, dream, so we'll start with dream builders,

the good ones, right? Dream builders, they are additive. They are trying to give value to you. They make you feel stronger, smarter, better, your happiest self. They literally make you feel better. So when you go into interaction with them, you're like, I can't wait to see them.

When you leave the interaction, you think, oh, that was so good. I feel better, I feel happier, I feel stronger, you feel better. So when you go into interaction with them, you're like, I can't wait to see them. When you leave the interaction, you think, ah, that was so good. I feel better, I feel happier, I feel stronger, I feel healthier. And back to them. You feel like you're also serving them, you're making them better, you're making them stronger. And that doesn't mean agreeing with everything, right?

Like that does not mean that. That means sometimes asking the hard questions. That means sometimes pushing back. That means sometimes encouraging your friend to get out of their comfort zone. That means also they can ask you the hard questions. That's all dream builder, additive. Dream killers take away.

They are subtractors. So dream killers, you know that you have a dream killer if you're doubting the intention behind their question. Right? So they ask you a question that doesn't feel like they're adding to you or giving to you or helping you or teaching. They're just taking it down. They're trying to subtract from your joy or subtract from your success.

A dream killer also can in a conversation make you doubt yourself and your goals and your opinion. So you go into the conversation feeling one way and then you leave being like, do I feel that way? They also cause dread. Sometimes your subconscious knows who this person is before your conscious does, right? So you have your monthly lunch with them, your monthly mommy and me with them, you see them at a party.

Like a lot of my friends now are my daughter's friend's parents, right? We see them at birthday parties, we see them at mommy and me classes, and they're confusing. That can be very challenging. And so I always think to myself, who am I looking forward to seeing? Dream builder. Very tangibly, who am I like going to try to avoid having a deep conversation with? My body knows. Your body knows. When you feel a little bit of dread when they come to you from across the room, pay attention to that dread. When you're like, oh man, I sat next to this person at dinner.

And you're like, I can't put my finger on why, but I just wish I had sat next to someone else. That is real. That means something about your subconscious is picking up on that intention. And there's two science things I want you to understand that we don't consciously know, but they're very important. One is micro expressions. So these are the brief facial expressions that we make when we feel something intense. So there's seven of them. Anger, disgust, surprise, fear, contempt, and happiness. I feel like you're naming the characters from Inside Out.

It's based on this. That's been the biggest movie in our household for the past three weeks. Our kids love it, but I don't want to cut you off because what you're saying is really good. This is based on that. Actually, all the characters in Inside Out are correct, especially the original. We actually haven't let our daughter watch Inside Out 2 because I don't want to cut you off because what you're saying is really good. This is based on that. Actually, all the characters in Inside Out are correct, especially the original. We actually haven't let our daughter watch Inside Out 2 because I don't want to teach her about panic attacks.

No. Yeah, that's actually valid. That's so sad. I know. I'm worried that it's going to plant the seed in her brain, but I really want to watch it. So the Inside Out 1, that's all the expressions. And there are facial expressions. So for example, contempt is a one-sided mouthphrase.

This one-sided mouth, like if you lift one side of your mouth in a smirk, it's an expression of disdain, contempt, scorn, negativity. And so it might be that you said to a friend, and your brain subconscious picks up on these, you might have said to a friend, yeah, you know, I'm really excited. I'm going to start a new passion project with photography and I can't wait. And they're like, oh, once I had a mouth raise, well, that's great for you. Verbally sounds totally fine,

but your subconscious brain was like, ooh, like I just saw something. And so next time when you feel that piece, that little bit of dread, we were like, I don't know if I should bring this up again. That is because your subconscious brain picked up on that negative micro expression, even though consciously you're like,

well, she said it was all good. Yeah. So there's Dr. Matthew Lieberman at UCLA. He put people into a brain scanner and he flashed them, like so fast you could barely register it, micro-expression of fear. So fear is when we raise our eyelids up and we raise our eyebrows up and go,

that scared me right there. Like right now I'm like, oh my gosh. It's contagious. Are you okay? It's contagious. Am I gonna die right now? Yes, that scared me right there. Like right now I'm like, oh my gosh. Are you okay? It's contagious. Am I gonna die right now? Yes, that's why we don't like people who like upper lid rays a lot. Yeah. Oh gosh.

It makes us feel like a little bit nervous when we see it. So he flashed them his micro expression of fear. And he found that even when they didn't consciously recognize they saw a face, that's how fast they flashed it. Wow. Their amygdala caught the fear. Oh my gosh. They actually began to feel afraid, but didn't know why. Oh my gosh. Wow. Their amygdala caught the fear. Oh my gosh. They actually began to feel afraid but didn't know why.

Oh my gosh. Wow. And so it's critically important that we recognize dread or hesitation in our bodies. Because our brain's way of saying, you saw fear, contempt, disgust. Disgust is another really nasty one. And I like to teach it to people. So disgust is when we raise our nose up

and our flash our upper whites of our teeth. So crinkle your nose and go, ugh, yeah, ugh. You actually begin to feel like yucky, right? Like what my daughter would say. Okay, disgust, we don't just make it around things we don't like the smell or taste of. We actually often make it when we're lying and we don't wanna admit it.

And that is because lying makes us feel dirty. We do not like to lie. So we have found in our research, if you ask someone a preference based question, so what do you think of the new girl? Oh yeah, you know, she's good. And they actually flash this disgust expression. It's like, I feel disgusting saying this,

but I'm afraid to say I don't like her. I'm afraid to say I don't like it. Isn't there a way to like say something that's true and positive without saying something negative? Like for instance, if you don't know what you think about the new girl, what if you just say that? What if you just say, actually, I don't even know what I think about the new girl. That's it.

But she seems really nice. Yeah. I would say TBD. TBD is the norm. I've only talked to her for two minutes. Exactly. I'm like, I assume liking, right? So like I would rather, instead of like, you know, I don't know, right?

That disgust expression, which then you know, like something is off here. It's like gosh, TBD, I haven't gotten to talk to her enough yet, but I'm excited to get to know her more. Right? Like that's more honest. So look out for disgust around lying. You will often see that someone flashed the micro expression disgust or holds their nose up in that crinkled expression when they are saying a lie.

And that's because lying makes us feel very dirty. This is a completely silly question, but I can't stop thinking about it. Especially after reading cues. What do you think about Botox? Because talking about all these micro expressions, you can't quite raise your eyebrows super well or crinkle your eyes to show happiness.

So what do you think about it? Are you anti-Botox? Okay, let's talk about Botox. I'm not anti-Botox, I have Botox. Oh! I have Botox. what do you think about it? Are you anti-botox? Okay, let's talk about Botox. I'm not anti-botox. I have Botox. Oh! I have Botox. I have Botox in my forehead. Can you see my, am I surprised? I don't see any, nothing.

You don't see any wrinkles? Yeah. And I also got a little bit on the side, a little bit on the side. So Botox. So are you hurting your micro expressions? I am hurting my micro expressions. But here's the good news is I have resting bothered face. Oh. RBF, I have resting bothered face. Oh. RBF, also known as resting face.

The B word. Okay. Which with the B? Resting bothered face. Resting bothered face, which means, I look angry when I'm totally fine. Really? Yes, and I look...

I'm sorry, I have a cough, I can't, we have two little kids, so I feel like they're constantly... Matt has resting confused face. Do I? Is that what mine is? I have a cough. I can't. We have two little kids. Matt has a resting confused face. I do. Do I? Is that what mine is? You do a little. I was listening to you on a podcast to prep for today this morning and this is so funny. I can't believe I'm saying this. I took a picture of me while I was literally on the toilet and I'm like, what does my resting face look like? What's my RBF? And I have a picture of it.

Wait, should I show it to you, babe? I want to know. If it's appropriate, I want to see. It's just my face. It's just, oh gosh, this is so embarrassing. Here's the picture. I'm like a wild puppy. Here's the picture. I'm going to text this to our editor if you can put it in. That's not your resting face. That's so funny. Resting face is serious because when I am at rest, I angry or sad And so I think that okay We're having too important I think this is important and this is important talk about what people assume you feel when you don't actually feel it, right?

So one is take a look at your face at rest in the mirror Look at where your features fall especially the older you get the more wrinkles you have the more people think of these things So what was happening was as I was getting older, I was getting those lines, right? And it made me look angry and sad and confused. I also, my eyes go down on the sides. Can you see how they just kind of go down? I wing them up with my makeup.

And I do that specifically to look more awake and more happy. Otherwise, when I have no makeup on and I'm just thinking, people are like, are you okay? And I'm like, I am fine, better before. It sounds like what you're saying right now is Botox does make you more likable. Oh my God.

Is what you're saying. Okay, so. So if everyone could go get some plastic surgery, that should fix your problem. That's not plastic surgery. Yeah. Okay, so first let's talk about the science of Botox. So Botox inhibits your emotional expression

and it also changes your emotional feeling. And this is because there's something called the facial feedback hypothesis, which is that when you make a face, you also feel the emotion. So if I smile really big, I actually start to feel a little happier. I'm like, oh my gosh, why am I smiling? Well, I'm smiling so I must feel happy. There's actually a loop that goes on there. When you get Botox, you're inhibiting that facial feedback.

For me, this actually works really well because I did my anger lines. And you know what? I feel less angry. I do. Okay. So what I do- You're justifying Botox in a way. I'm justifying Botox because you know what?

It makes me feel less angry. I also get baby Botox, which means I can still express with my forehead and I still show expression, but it's just like loosening that a little bit I love that where I feel less. That's all the reason I need Yeah, and so it makes me feel less angry I swear it's like to inhibit my anger I also am really careful I don't do all my smile lines because I do the areas studies that show that if you do that you will actually feel less happy Really? Yeah, so I'm very careful with my happiness wrinkles.

I try to leave my upper cheek muscles intact because I do not want it to affect my happiness. I don't want people to think that I'm fake happy. So fake happiness looks like this. It's gonna be like, we only smile on the bottom half of the face. Well, women who have had women and men who've had too much Botox,

they look like they're fake happy all the time. And that is why people think they're inauthentic. And so I would say, I'm actually kind of for a little bit of Botox if you're angry or you look a little sad. You know like if that's gonna help you feel less angry, I'm sort of for it but please do not do your smile wrinkles because that will actually make you look inauthentic and fake.

I never thought that you had Botox by the way. Yeah you look very natural. It's maybe Botox, well that's laser. I know what look very natural. It's maybe Botox, let's laser. You know what's funny is- My dermatologist is like, I need your whole my dermatologist. Yeah, I'll give it to you later. I'll give it to you later. Thank you.

I love how you said not too much because we were in Vegas. We've been to the club in Vegas once. It was one time right before we got pregnant. It was like a month before we got pregnant with our first kid. And it was awesome, but there are people there that had like fake abs. Like you're at a day club and people were wearing those suits. Maybe it makes them feel stronger though.

But it was hilarious, it looks like those abs aren't real. Like I can tell your abs are. Were they like plastic? I don't even, like it just looked. I don't even know what you're referring to. I swear I saw a dude that looked like he had surgery to make it look like he had abs. Maybe he was just chiseled.

I don't know. You know, you can spray tan abs on. Maybe that was it. Maybe it was spray tan. I mean that's okay was just chiseled. I don't know. You know, you can spray tan abs on. Maybe that was it. Maybe it was spray tan. I mean, that's okay. Because it looked fake. I would do it. It looked fake.

Well, that's okay. And you could read it from a million miles away. You're like, that's not real. Here's my other question. So with this feedback loop that you brought up. Yes. So say you're not feeling well. Like you might be coming down with something, fighting something.

Do you think doing activity or behaving as a healthy person would could make you feel better? Is that too extreme I Think it could work Look the placebo effect is real powerful. Yeah, and so acting as a healthy person would there are also times where in my life You know, I'm almost 40 and there have been times where I'm like struggling, like especially with two little kids working 50 hours a week, very intense speaking schedule, massive pressure. You know, a lot of my work stuff is like high pressure where I'm like, how am I going to do this?

Like, I feel like I'm treading water. And when I tell myself is like, act as if you got this. Like just like act as if like walk on that stage like you got this. Act as if like you have all the energy in the world to make pancakes, like Mickey Mouse pancakes. Like just like act like you got this. And it kind of works. It kind of works.

I also think I read a memoir of a woman who struggled with migraines. I don't have migraines, but she said that what happens with migraines is it makes you turn, it makes you like lay down, stay in the dark all the time. And this doctor like saved her life by fixing her migraines by saying, you actually have to do the opposite. When you feel a migraine coming on,

don't go in the dark, don't be alone. Act as if a healthy person would, go exercise. What? Yeah. And so when she feels a migraine coming on, she starts to do jumping jacks and exercises and pushups. And she stopped migraines. So like even this morning, like literally this morning, I was up at 530 AM because I was flying here from San Diego and I have like a little bit of a headache and I was like, babe, we're going running. And I had a headache and I was like,

you know what? And I went to the gym and I ran and my headache, boom, gone. I swear by that. I really do. And I feel so validated. Like I ran and my headache, boom, gone. I swear by that. I really do and I feel so validated. Like I feel like I'm right now. Okay, can we finger it like, okay. I agree with that. The placebo effect is real. Yeah, and I think acting as if, so like, right,

like if you smile and that makes you feel happy, why wouldn't it work that if you're running, your body's like, okay, guess we're a winner. Yeah, we won today. You know, I also think, like winning is like one of my favorite things that people don't talk about. I try to feel like a winner as much as I possibly can.

So much so that I try to create micro wins in my life. This is my best life hack for productivity for getting through those hard days, especially if you're a mom and you're like, whoa, this is a lot. Micro wins. Here's what happens in your body when you win. When you win, your body produces dopamine and testosterone.

Whether you're a man or a woman, you produce both these magical things. Dopamine and testosterone do a lot of things in our body, but when we've just won something, and I'll explain how we win without running a race in a second, we get dopamine. One, that gives us motivation. Dopamine is the chemical of pleasure. It makes us feel good, but it also makes us feel like, I want to do more. I can knock out that to-do list. I can do that art project. I can make my dinner. It gives us energy and motivation

the best. Testosterone gives us stamina. It gives endurance. It gives us clarity of thinking. And so if you can win, you're literally chemically giving your body exactly what it needs to win more. And so if you can win, you're literally chemically giving your body exactly what it needs to win more. So I want you to frame your day around how many micro wins can I do today? And you have to think of it like that. So it is a micro win if I can make my girls breakfast, right? I can't always. Sometimes they have cereal.

But if I can make them a little bit of breakfast, I'm like winning. That's one of my goals is trying to make them as many home cooked meals as possible. Win. And I'm like, yes. And my girls and I are trying to make them as many home cooked meals as possible. Win. And I'm like yes. And my girls and I are like win. Home cooked breakfast today. High five. High five.

Oxytocin. Oxytocin gives you the chemicals, the belonging and connection and the fuzziness. That's a win in my house. If I can get on the treadmill, if I can run a little bit, win. Major win. That also produces endorphins. I have a bunch of things that you might not think of as wins, but for me, because I've aligned them with my goals, they are wins to me.

Remind me what endorphins do. Okay. So endorphins are similar to dopamine, but they make you feel like, feel really good, feel pleasure, give you energy, calm your brain. Like, yeah, I got this. It's like that feeling of like, I can do this. That's what endorphins do. It's like, I can do this.

And so I want you to think about your goals. And I think a mistake people make with their goals is they think of goals that don't deliver wins. So they're like, maybe it's like, I want to lose 20 pounds, or I want to get into medical school, or I want to read 12 books a year. Those are great, but that means you're not going gonna feel that you've won until you've gotten into medical school. That's like, you're never gonna feel good about that if your win is only at the very end. So I would rather you chunk down your goals much smaller into micro wins

that you can feel that sense of winning every day. Every day. So you keep going. Yes, and so like, it's like, I had six home cooked meals this week, or my five cups of vegetables, that has to be like a win, and in your brain, you're like, it's like, I had six home cooked meals this week, or I ate my five cups of vegetables, like that has to be like a win. And in your brain, you're like, yes,

like I literally want you, if you can physically be like, yes, that little bit gives you that dopamine testosterone, which makes you want to win in other areas of your life. That's so tangible. What do you do if it feels like someone in your life is keeping you from getting those wins? Kill them. Yeah, wow. Just kill them, murder them. I'm thinking from getting those wins. Kill them.

Yeah, wow. Murder them. I was thinking about someone specifically. Just murder them. Dude. No, no, I was thinking because you were talking about Dream Killers earlier. Okay, yes, yes. And I think what's interesting in all relationships is you have to choose people that align with

your goals, your values, all that, but no one is exactly like you. And actually, if they were exactly like you, I would argue, this is my freaking opinion, I'm just sharing for, I don't know why. But I think if someone's exactly like you, you probably would hate them, because if they're just like you, it's like that would give me the ick.

I wanna be with people that are different than me. I find that attractive when people are different than me. So it's like, in relationships, how do you spot dream killers? But more specifically, because you're a mom, you have two kids, and I just met your husband earlier, he seems like a really nice guy. How do you keep yourself from being a dream killer in your own marriage? Okay, okay. So first, I also want to talk about how we leverage dream killers, because there are certain dream killers you can't get rid of, right? Like in-laws,

killers because there are certain dream killers you can't get rid of, right? Like in-laws, bosses, or like theoretically, you know, theoretically. Oh my God, that's so funny. There are people like maybe family members or bosses or colleagues that you just like, you can't like they are dream killers. Okay. We got to leverage them. Right? So one is dream killers have an amazing ability to poke holes in things.

They are extremely skeptical. And so sometimes that is very helpful. Yeah. Like for example, when I am writing a book, I want my dream killer to dream kill that book before I get it out because I would rather than do it for me. In fact, my husband is extremely skeptical. Really? He can be a massive dream killer. I love you, baby. He can be a massive, killer, I love you baby. He can be a massive, massive dream killer in certain things. Like he wants it to be perfect. So do you marry your dream killer or kill your dream killer?

No, no, no, no, no, no. So I think everyone is a dream killer in some sense. Right, so you gotta figure out where is your partner's dream killing, right? So like I know that he's a dream killer when it comes to like ideas and the way things are presented. He wants to be perfect, he's a data guy. So for example, I have my third book I'm working on right now. And we were looking at titles and

subtitles and my husband and I had a massive disagreement on the title of my book. No, massive disagreement. I'll just tell you what it is. I can't, my publisher is going to be like, so I really want to call the book conversation. I love c-words captivate cues Thank you, thank you to chime for sponsoring this portion of today's episode have you ever gotten hit with an overdraft fee They are so annoying. It's happened to me I'm sure it's happened to a lot of people listening to this right now and it sucks But if you have a chime bank account That's not something you have to worry about as much

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Fees apply out of network ATMs. My pay eligibility requirements apply. Credit limits range $20 to $500. $2 fee applies to get funds instantly. Chime checking account required. Go to Chime.com slash disclosers for details. So I was like conversation, right? And like I love conversation. Like, okay. I'm bought in. I'd buy it. I'd buy that book. My husband, who's a data guy, marketing, he's like, no,

no, no, no, no. It's the what, not the why. We got to go to the why. We've been doing too many what books. Q's is a what book and Q's did very well, by the way. But he's like, no, we got to do the why. So he's like, no, we gotta do the Y. So he's like, connection. So we are fighting about this, okay? And he's like, I am right, and I'm like, I am right, I know. So I was, see, and he wouldn't drop it because he's a dream killer, and when he's like, I think this is right,

I'm like, all right, let's go to the data. And this is how you lever dream killer. What is gonna convince them to get to your side? How can you win them to your side? Because sometimes you want a dream killer because then they're loyal, right? Like then they're like in a fight for you. Then they're bought in.

You make a dream killer feel heard? Data. Yes. How can you make your dream killer feel heard? That can often sway them to either agree to disagree, fine, or come to your side. So my husband is a data guy and I was like, let's go to the data. I was like, I feel so confident in my title that we're going to test it. So there's a website called PickFu. It's literally a website about picking things.

And you can pay a very small amount of money and it shows a specific audience your choices and it will do a poll for you and then people will explain why they like it. So we're like, we wanna ask readers of non-fiction self-help books what title they would like better. And we tied our two files. Am I one?

He's all in on conversation So I I think like one what are they good at like dream killers can be very good at certain things oftentimes they're High competence like when we talk about charisma. They're very high in competence. They want to be right They Google fact- check everything you say. Use that. That is a skill. So one, leverage it. And then the second thing is put boundaries around it.

So I know when I'm in an ideation stage, I should either not go to my husband or say to him, babe, I'm ideating. I'm in an ideation stage. Don't dream kill me, just support me. And he's like, got you, babe. I got you. Like he knows what that means for me.

And so if you have a friend who's like, for example, they are, I have a friend like this, who's very, very healthy. Very, very healthy. Runs marathons, eats really clean, and I'm trying. I'm trying, I'm trying. I am not that, I try to run. I try to eat clean as much as I can.

And I know that I can't talk to her about health stuff. I know that I can't. But when I need to talk about how to brainstorm something, like how do I get my kids to eat more vegetables? Does anyone know this? I will go to her and be like, can you help me figure out how do I get more vegetables in my kids? And she's like, well, let's pick a spreadsheet.

Let's pick a spreadsheet. Let's work with the whiteboard. Let's do this, let's figure this out. Oh my gosh. Right, so I think we have to honor those strengths for the people that we can't say no to, say goodbye to. I really, really love how you just said that your dream killer is your husband because it's like one of those things where, you know,

I think people are attracted to what's different than them. Totally. And so your husband's clearly different than you and you probably find that very attractive and he probably finds you very attractive because you're different than him. Totally. And it's almost like... Yin and yang. I don't know what the relation is here but it's almost like some people would say,

there's a saying, keep your friends close but your enemies closer, but it's almost like relate, not that your husband's your enemy because he's not your enemy, but it's like, it's almost by you being married to your dream killer, he makes you better, which is what you want in relationships. You want to be surrounded with people that make you better. I would say it exactly like this idea, which is we compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses.

My strengths are some of his weaknesses. His strengths are some of my weaknesses. Like how magic, right? Like how magical is that? And so I think like that is really important is if you are married to a dream killer in one area, like we agree in a lot of things, but like that in one area we're not, it's like that's okay. That's your strength and my weakness or my weakness and your strength.

Like that's a good thing. And with like business partnerships, that's really important. Friendships that can be really important. You don't always have to be all the same. I feel like there's probably a lot of women listening to this right now who want help spotting a toxic man or a toxic boyfriend or whatever. Just because like I know it's hard sometimes where you hear about these horrible stories of people who date a guy for three years, think they're going to get married and then

everything goes to crap. They found out that he was cheating on them or something like how do you spot these toxic people early on? What are the early signs? Okay, so number one, does this person ever convince you that you don't feel a certain way? Like people can convince you about a thing, but if someone's like, oh, you don't feel angry. Oh, no, you don't feel sad. That is a red flag. a thing. But if someone's like, oh, you don't feel angry. Oh, no, you don't feel sad. That is a red flag. You want someone who accepts your feelings, whatever they are. Maybe they want to understand them, they want to ask questions about them. But if you have someone

who is trying to convince you to feel differently, that is a not a deal breaking red flag, but it is a worrisome red flag because it means that they might also try to convince you that you're not okay when you're okay, or that you're okay when you're not okay. And so be aware if someone's trying to convince you that your feelings are wrong. I think that's one. The second thing is if they challenge your boundaries. So if you have boundaries like, for example, you know, I'm really, really focused on my education right now.

I'm really trying to finish my schooling. So I'm going to try not to go out and party a lot this weekend. It's a studying weekend for me. Oh no, no, you don't have to do that. Like come on, you don't love me? You don't love me that you're not gonna come out with me? You're gonna leave me alone? You're gonna make me lonely?

When they fight your boundaries by making you feel like you're not valuing them, that's like, well of course I love you. Of course I love you. Of course I'll go out with you. So that's also another one that I hear in early toxic relationships and they just always blow up and get bad,

is they have to respect your boundaries and your goals. The last one is that they want you to be better. I think that's a really hard one to get right, but I think that true healthy relationships, you want the best for the person you're with, and if the person's trying to drag you down or hold you back or keep you quiet or keep you low, I just don't think that's a red flag

of something that could maybe go poorly. Can we talk about setting really good boundaries? Yeah. Okay, if I could gift every woman a skill, it would be the skill of assertiveness. I think there's research on this that finds that they asked people how assertive they thought they were. And most people who thought they were overly assertive were actually rated as under-assertive by their colleagues.

This is a thing that we think we are overly assertive, but actually we're terrible at judging our own assertiveness, especially women. And so I actually think that being kindly assertive, right, like that is an incredibly important skill. And we actually can do it verbally and non-verbally. So the way that we think about this is, the number one way to be more assertive is to not ask your boundaries. It's to state your boundaries.

When we ask our boundaries, we use what's called the question inflection. That's a vocal inflection that goes up at the end of our sentences. So we say, I really can't go this weekend. I think I should study. That up at the end of our sentences is actually a very subtle cue that gives away your power.

Our research shows that when we hear someone accidentally use the question inflection on a statement, we doubt their statement. And we also go from listening to scrutinizing. It's like a different part of our brain. And so if you say to someone, I don't want that, downward inflection, very clear, I don't want that. I don't want that. The other person is like, well, do you want that?

And so I think it's really important that we get very clear on stating our needs. Do not accidentally use the question of inf reflection on your name, on your boundary, or on anything to do with pricing. I just share that because I do a lot of sales trainings. And I hear people who are doing sales, they're trying to negotiate, and they're like, oh, no, she's getting for a salary. Let's do that one, okay?

Okay. They're like, okay. Well, Mr. or Mrs. Boss, I really would like this promotion, and I think that I deserve it for X, Y, Z reasons, and I would like a raise of $5,000. Did you hear me ask it? Yeah. My answer is no.

It's like you clearly don't think you deserve that. Yes. If you ask your worth, you're begging the other person to negotiate with you. You're telling them, I don't really believe in this worth and you shouldn't either. You're literally saying to them, I am confused about my own value, you should question it. And so I think we have to get in the habit

if we're asking for something, you have to state the need. Right, so I really love this promotion, I know I deserve it, XYZ reasons, and I would love a promotion of $5,000. This is totally reminding me of the Shark Tank example. Yes, yes. That was like, you know, I love Shark Tank. Same.

And that was an amazing moment, I think in entrepreneur history, because Jamie Siminoff, founder of Ring, the doorbell, had a billion dollar idea, a billion dollar idea. He went in Shark Tank and failed. Crazy. Even though he had a billion dollar idea, the Sharks couldn't see it in Shark Tank and failed. Crazy. Even though he had a billion dollar idea, the sharks couldn't see it because he presented it badly.

Crazy. And he asked it. He asked his valuation, he asked his name, and the sharks were like, you don't believe you, why should I believe you? We like to buy from confident people. We like to be around confident people. We like to be in a relationship with confident people.

And so when you ask your name, your worth, your numbers, your boundaries, it actually makes the other person feel uncomfortable. And you don't want to catch that kind of questioning or wondering. That's so interesting. Because you also said that about emotions, like how our emotions are like contagious too. Yes. Funny story is I, so I did a bunch of research on TED Talks and I wanted to know what makes a TED Talk go viral. And we found in this research, we studied thousands of hours of TED Talks,

that the number one thing that is the most greatest predictor of a viral TED Talk is hand gestures. Unreal. Love, we love hand gestures. And that is because we don't lie with our hands, right? It's really, we often tell the truth with our hands and it helps aid comprehension. A gesture could hold 400% more comprehension according to the research. So like if I were to say I have three big ideas and hold up the number five,

you're more likely to believe my hand than my words. If I were to say I have a really big idea but I hold up a very small thing, you're like, but it looks so small, Vanessa. So I did this research, it got me a TED Talk and they were like, what do you wanna call your TED Talk? And I was like, well, it doesn't really matter, the hand gestures are the only thing that matters.

And so we named it, You Are Contagious. Little did I know that there would be a pandemic a couple of years later. Oh my gosh. And so that did confuse a lot of people, but it got me millions of views. There you go. Wow, so when the pandemic hit,

did the viewers just go crazy? Huge, huge. Huge. And everyone was like, gosh, this is not what I was expecting from this talk. Book sales just went crazy. I'm sure you sold a lot of books. So many books. But like, so contagiousness, I think, emotional contagion is so powerful. And the study that I just was like, what? Like, it blew my mind was they had participants come into the lab, they split them up into two different groups.

The first group was asked to run on the treadmill while they captured their sweat in like a sweatsuit. The second group was asked to skydive for the first time and wear a sweatsuit. So imagine the two different groups, right? Like both they sweat a lot, but different kinds of sweat. Then they had unsuspecting participants smell the sweat in an fMRI machine. Now imagine this for a second. You're in an fMRI machine. You're asked to sniff sweat. Right. I smell these and the participants had no idea what they were smelling. Oh great. No idea.

Right. So can you imagine? I know they paid them a lot. They paid them a lot for the study. The participants who smelled the fear sweat caught the fear. Really? They began to feel afraid in the scanner. It actually lit up the fear part of their brain, which shows there's so much going on. That's why I said you gotta listen to your intuition, that dread, because if someone was making you feel afraid,

your brain might realize it before you even consciously realize what's happening. And so I think going back to the very beginning of like, your brain might realize it before you even consciously realize what's happening. And so I think going back to the very beginning of like, if you go into interaction, assuming liking, wanting to like this person, that smells, body language, vocal, pheromones, whatever it is, like genuine warmth.

I want to like you. I'm gonna ask you questions that make me wanna like you. I'm gonna assume that you like me. That feeling is conveyed and it catches. I truly think that popularity is actually a contagion. We just like people who are sending those like beams towards us. Now, there's one exception to this. We all know a popular person who wasn't very nice. Yeah, that's what I was thinking about before. I was thinking about me girls.

Like the Regina George. Me girls. Regina George. Yes, okay. So there's two things. It is a movie though. But it's kind of, can't you think of someone who was like not very nice but was like very popular?

Yeah. Probably. Yeah, actually. Yeah. So I think that we like people who like us and those people we wanna bond with and spend time with. Those people who we share our deepest dark secrets with, those people who we feel intimacy with. But there is a type of person who is cool, who is powerful.

And there is something about powerful people that we really like and it has to do with our survival. If there was a cool, powerful, popular person, we want that person to like us because they're going to give us food, they're going to give us shelter, they're going to give us a spot around the fire. There was once that it even looked at powerful people

and they found that the most powerful person in the room has a vocal power. Like right now I'm using a very low vocal tone. When I'm with my kids or my husband, I tend to speak a little bit more like this. This is natural for me, but it's a little higher. But I don't usually use this kind of vocal voice for my podcast.

I try to go down a little bit lower because that is competent. It's high in the competence. So natural, but competent. Powerful people use a certain kind of vocal resonance. It's called maximum resonance point. They found that in the room, other people without realizing it,

mirrored that person's vocal power. Like they literally wanted to sound like them. And it's happened to me accidentally one time, I was with a big CEO of a big company, and he had like a nice southern drawl. Always with the southern accents. Always with the southern drawl. And I was started to realize I started to talk like him and I could not help it.

And I am not southern. And I was so embarrassed. I'm like, why am I doing this? And it's because he was just so dang powerful that I was like, I'm a Texan now, like look at me. Because like I just could, I could not help it because he was so powerful that I like caught it. And so there is something about powerful people. Oh, sorry.

You want to say? You've written an entire book called Q's, which is very good by the way. Everybody should go check this book out. What are Q's that people are messing up in their romantic relationships that are causing conflict? Yes, okay. So the very first one is,

you should watch out for a romantic relationship because it's a signal of something deeper, is a lip purse. A lip purse, you can try it with me. Mm, mm, mm, mm. How do you even do that? Press your lips together, mm, mm. Like, as if you're like, I don't know about that.

Mm mm mm, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got it, yeah. Mm, like that, like that, like that, yes. So when you press your lips together in a hard line, we do this, it's like a withholding gesture. It's like, ooh, I wanna say something, but I'm not gonna. Ooh, I didn't like that, but I don't know what to say about that. Or like, I'm gonna hold in whatever I'm saying.

If you see your partner do this, that is an opportunity for you to be like, are we good? Anything you wanna share, anything you wanna tell me? What kills a relationship is when we let resentment fester. Right, like I've been married for 18 years, I've been married for 14 years, but together for 18 years. Long time, and I know that the sooner I can address

any lip purse, any kind of withholding or feeling of like, the sooner I can address that calmly, the better we are. It like immediately untangles it. The longer the knot sits there, the harder it is to get out. And so one is looking for that lip purse to be like permission, permission, intimacy. Are we good?

What do you wanna share? Anything I didn't see here? Do you wanna tell me anything? We're in a safe place. That is so loving. Like that is so permission, intimacy. On the other hand, if you feel yourself doing a lot of like, mm, mm, mm, mm, lip pursing,

you are probably withholding a lot of resentment and that builds. So you have to get yourself to a safe place in your relationship or like even time wise like a safe date night or after the kids go to bed where you're like, can we talk about something? I feel like I've been holding it in. I don't want to hold it anymore. So watching out for that lip purse is everything.

The second thing on the similar vein is contempt. So we talked about that one-sided mouth raise. Dr. John Gottman is a marriage and family counselor and he did the largest marriage experiment ever done. He brought people into couples in his lab. Oh yeah. Did they reference his study in the seven principles that make marriage work? He wrote that book. Yeah, he wrote that book. Okay. Perfect, perfect. Right, so he studies marriage couples, he

looked for all these variables and he found that the one predictor of divorce with 93.6% accuracy, he can tell you if a couple will get divorced by watching a silent video of them because he's looking for contempt. If one member of the couple shows that one-sided mouth raise towards the other with 93.6% accuracy, they'll get divorced. That's crazy. Why? Contempt is one of the only emotions that doesn't go away. Fear comes in a burst, you calm down.

Happiness comes, then you go back to normal. Anger comes, then you calm down. Not contempt. If you feel scorn or disdain for someone else, if it is not addressed, it festers and it grows. And that is why at the end of a very bad marriage, you have two people who can't even look at each other. And so I want you to be one on the lookout for contempt, to be like, what's going on?

Are you okay? What are you feeling? I wanna be here for it, because then you're giving air to whatever that contempt is so it can be addressed. And then you can either fix it or become the enemy against it. And I have a very, very fervent belief that all couples have the same three fights.

All couples have the same three fights. They might dress up as other things, but down low they're the same three fights. You have to sit with your partner and figure out what are our same three fights. What are they? Well, you're calm. Okay, you feel this way about your in-laws. I feel this way about your in-laws. You feel this way about the organization of the house, I feel this way.

You are doing this with money, and I'm doing this with money. What are your basic, like, root level three arguments? Where do you both stand on them? And that way, when you're in an argument, even if you feel like we still disagree, you can be like, oh, this is argument number two. Okay. We gotta hit it.

We're in a stalemate on this one. Argument number two, what are we doing today? What are your three arguments? Is that too personal? You're crazy. Are you crazy? I don't know, it's not too far. There's no, I'll tell you one of them.

Okay, okay. Okay, so I think that I want to be the best mom that I can and my idea of what the best mom I can be is a lot of things. Perfectly, perfect, I'm using the word perfect. Perfectly healthy meals, perfectly healthy home, perfectly healthy behavior, perfectly healthy cleanliness. I want like a sort of perfection that my husband does not believe is real.

And I think that he's kind of right about that, but it's really hard for me to give that up. And so a fight that we have all the time is he says, it's good enough. And I say, it's not good enough. And so we got, after many, many months, it was months actually, we figured this out pretty early, of fighting about the socks on the floor.

It was not about the socks on the floor. We were not fighting about who was cleaning up after the other person. We were not fighting under dirty dishes. Actually, the root cause was I want a perfect home and I cannot relax until I feel like it's perfect. And he feels like that doesn't matter, it's good enough. Yeah, it'll never be perfect.

Right, and so that way when his socks are on the floor, I can be like, he thinks it's good enough. Like he's happy. Socks on the floor does not mean I'm not perfect. So actually that's the fight that I am working on. That is something that I think he's actually more right about. I don't love it.

And there are certain times where I'm like, please just do the dishes, right? Like there are times like that. But I can now say to him, I'm feeling like very out of control. I need the house to be clean. And he's like, gotcha babe. Like I can say, I'm speaking into the deeper level of like why I need the

house clean is because I'm feeling like overwhelmed internally and having the house be clean will be one thing off the list of like, I don't have to worry about it. And so it's changed the nature of our fight. We don't have that fight as much and not as contemptuous, right? Like now if I have the fight, I don't feel contemptuous of him. I know where he's coming from. And so the anger is much less loaded. You know, I'm not like judging him as a person because I understand where this fight is coming from. And I know what I can ask for. So that fight has just, it's like a deflated balloon. It's like, it's just not as hot as it used to be. That's good.

That was so vulnerable of you to share that first of all. So thank you for sharing that. My husband's gonna be like, oh. Was there a cue that I gave you that you noticed that made you feel safe? Open palm helps. Really, oh this? Yes, like I'm not, like oftentimes when we have an open palm,

it's like instinctive. We know that like there's nothing, no weapon, nothing coming out, I'm not holding, I'm not angry. Like a closed fist is a cue of anger. It's a cue of intensity. So when someone's like, I just want to understand you. I just want to know you.

Like look how different this is. Can you tell me about your marriage struggles? Yeah, you seem very welcoming with your hands. Versus, can you tell me about your marriage struggles? Mmm. Like there's something like instinctively where it's like, like it feels kind of closed. And so that really helps.

Like you're just trying to like learn. And I'm like, right, I'm here to teach. I am here with you to teach and share any wisdom that I have. And I have a lot of learning left, right? Like I hope I have 40, 50 more years of learning in my marriage, but I've learned a little. And so like, I'm here to teach. And so if I can be a little bit vulnerable

to share something, I'm gonna try to do it. Right, like that reminded me of like, right, I'm here to teach. Yeah. I love that you mentioned the palms open because when I was talking to your husband an hour earlier, I recognized that he didn't have his arms crossed and I did.

Yeah, he didn't. And I was like, oh, okay, I need to have my hands down because I realized I maybe was just worried about giving a good first impression, but with my arms crossed, I could have made him feel like I had something to hide. Totally. And I didn't have anything to hide. I was just nervous.

Nervous. And so I put my arms down. I had to mentally think about it. Yeah. And maybe my palms were open. I don't know. So I think that it's really important. There are 97 cues.

And I think it's important that we begin to talk about these because sometimes we have accidental crosswires, accidental mismeanings, right? You're nervous. So you're crossing your arms because you're nervous. By the way, that is a nervous cue. We're nervous, we wanna block. We wanna cross our arms, it makes us feel really safe. Right, we wanna protect our vital organs.

That is an anxiety cue, but it also can make you look cold, distant, and closed off. A lot of cues have that, where they mean one thing, but they look like another. We must teach these to our kids, right? Like I think that we've learned, we gotta teach our kid how to have a good handshake.

Great, all for that. But the next thing is how do we make a good impression non-verbally, right? So with my daughter, it's working on eye contact. Like making eye contact when you say your name and say how are you. It's keeping open and visible hands, not putting your hands in your pockets, right?

It's taking up space and claiming our space, especially for like girls. I think a lot of little girls girls, they try to take up as little space as possible and they have a little distance between their ears and their shoulders. This is actually a very big marker of confidence. If you scrunch your shoulders up and you tilt your head down, it makes me look kind of like little, right? Kind of like low confident. I notice a lot of girls and women will do that as a way to be small.

That was crazy how I just saw a complete shift in the way that you appeared to me. I didn't realize how high your shoulders were until you brought them down. I was like, wow, you are so much more confident. And I actually believe what you're saying. Yes, you believe me and I feel better. I feel better. So my daughter is an ambivert. She's like in between extrovert and introvert, which means she likes being around her friends,

but she gets nervous in like big birthday parties. Like she will not leave my side at a birthday party. You know, she's not the first to jump in the pool. You know, so she just needs a little bit of time. Okay. Well, when we're ambiverted or anxious, we get small. We cross our arms, we roll our shoulders up, we tilt our head towards our chest, and you'll see boys and girls will kind of like shrink.

Well, when you are shrunk, you feel worse. And so it's a bad cycle. You get small, you feel small, you feel like, I don't belong to be here, and they really don't want to participate. So I've been trying to teach my daughter, like, we have to stand how we want to feel. Right? Like, let's stand like we're Superman. Like stand, pretend like you're wearing a cape.

Like roll your shoulders, put your shoulders down and back. Hold your head up, try to look tall. Can you try to look tall for me? Like have your hands out and like let them be free. Like what do you see? Show me things. And she, you can actually see it take an emotional change because I know there's a chemical response that's happening

and it also makes her look better. I'm laughing right now because I, like was thinking about how you were perceiving my actions towards you and I recognized that I was doing a head tilt. Like when you mentioned in an interview that head tilts make people feel more welcome. They do.

I was like, I don't ever do that. And then I literally right then was like, oh my gosh, I'm tilting my head. Yes, yes. I'm tilting my head. It's universal. So when we tilt our head to the side, it's like a universal sign of engagement. I'm like, oh, I want to hear you better.

I want to hear more. That's what we think is cute when dogs do it. We're like, oh, he's listening to me. They're not, like they just tilt their head to the side. But humans, we do. And so when you're engaged, I know that I have sense of me engaging when you're like, ah, or you raise your eyebrows.

So when you raise your eyebrows at me, I'm like, oh, I said something good. When you had to, I'm like, yay, they're trying to hear. You can also use these to show your children. You're engaged show your partner engaged your teammates You're engaged. I think gifting people nonverbal listening cues is one of the greatest things you can do to get them to keep talking Yeah, right. So, okay teaching our kids also, how do we be a good listener? Right? I have to hear parents say like listen Listen up be a good listener. Well, what does that mean? Yes, we're turning on our ears. I've heard, you know, teachers say that, but it also means giving them nonverbal gifts

of listening, right? So that could be a slow triple nod. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Research has found that when someone triple nods, the other person speaks 67% longer. That was in your book and that shocked me. Crazy. 67% is a long time. If I'm just like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm,

you wanna keep going. Yeah. There's something about internally, you're like, bye. It's funny, listening to you talk about all this stuff at first, I'm kind of a skeptic. I'm kind of like your husband. I like to pick things apart and find the flaw in it, right? And so, at first I was like, this is, this is, are we just gonna be like,

like smiling and like all like doing, head tilt, hi, nice to meet you. Like that seems so creepy to me. But the more that I like am aware of my open palms, my head tilt towards you, the nodding I was doing while you were talking, I'm like, oh my gosh, you freaking, you've cracked the code, you've cracked the code.

She's also addressed the flip side of it, like withholding those gestures can also be robotic yeah yeah like get and and change the result that you want like you're like I don't really want them to approach me anymore so like I'm not gonna put my palms up or like right so so that's really important of like we are accidentally sending the wrong cues like instinctively when you're interested you already do these things. Right, that's the beauty is like you're like,

oh I did head tilt, yes amazing. What I'm trying to teach people is let's be purposeful. One, so we gift them to others. So they are more open and they feel better, it's a gift to them. But second, when we're anxious what do we do? We freeze, we freeze. And so a lot of people they're am, why am I not charismatic?

Why do I feel not likable? Why do I feel not memorable? It's actually because you are shutting down your nonverbal cues that would actually help you the most. And this happens with kids too, where they're told to behave, or they're told to turn their listening ears. And that means sitting stock still and just listening like this. And they've misinterpreted that message. So actually we say, no, yes, let's turn on your ears. And then if you agree with something,

you should give them a gift. It's a nod like this. Yeah, give them a gift. You know the other gift you can give them is tilt your head to the side so you can listen better. Let your ear hear more. Make it like a microphone. You know what else you could do is you could lean in

if you really like something that's a gift to them. So if we give them these tools, it actually helps them be better listeners, for sure. But also, then the other person can say more interesting things. And so it's like this beautiful feedback loop that I just want us to talk more about, to make it more intentional. I kind of want to go back to you talking about your daughter being an ambivert. Because I want to know when you first were able to pick out those behaviors in your daughter daughter Like I'm like is it too early or kids too young to try to figure that out? Okay, so there's research on this because I was of course the moment I got pregnant

I was like all the parenting research. I was like give me all the studies. So I was like, when will they be themselves? What will their personality? So there's research on this. So they did an amazing research experiment where they Brought children into their lab and they had their caregivers do personality tests for them. And there are five big personality traits, which we can talk about, that are pretty well researched, that are pretty well established, and they had them do this personality test so they then found the personality of these children. Then they followed these children for 20 years.

20 years, okay, till they became adults. Then they gave those kids the same tests again and they wanted to see were they similar. They found that it wasn't until age three that the tests started to match. Okay. So that means... So I was crazy. I was like, I know Augie's personality from when I was pregnant with him. I was like, he's crazy. Well, I was like, I know Augie's personality from when I was pregnant with him. I was like, he's crazy. Well, it could be true. It could be true. It could be true.

And also like it could, look, just because some solidify it, three doesn't mean you don't see it really early, right? So three is when the research begins to say, okay, your kid might start to be, they're formed. Okay. They're starting to be shaped. And so I did notice this. So I have a two year old and a six and a half year old. When my six and a half year old was two,

she was a little different. Three was a little more accurate to where she is now. And I don't think she's changed at all since three. So my two year old we'll see. We'll see. She's two years and 11 months. It's two years and one month. So we have 11 months to go,

but it's forming. Like I can see these things, these forces shaping her personality literally right now. Like I can see that like my older daughter is shaping my younger daughter. Wow. Right, like I can see the type of school or daycare or nanny that we are choosing

is affecting her personality for sure. So zero to three is extremely formative. You are literally forming their personality. However, I do think a lot of it is nature. Thank you to Hungry Root for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. We just got back from a trip and there is nothing I come home craving more than home cooked meals when all we've done is like eat out or have meals sent to the house. Chicken nuggets, fries, more chicken nuggets. Can we just eat something that's real? And that's why Hungry Root is really, really awesome

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Go to hungerroot.com slash unplanned and use code unplanned. That's hungerroot.com slash unplanned, code unplanned to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Hungerroot.com slash unplanned, code unplanned. Like yes, we can shape and mold, of course, but a lot of it is like, I think, pure genetics. And they've also proven this. So of the five personality traits, a lot of them are heritable.

Like they actually can point to the gene. So one of them is neuroticism. Neuroticism is one of my favorite personality traits. Neuroticism is how you approach worry. High neurotics, those are high neuroticism scale, we default to worry. We tend to be less emotionally stable, so we have more mood swings.

We also think the worst will happen. And when the worst does happen, we have a longer time to recover. I am a high neurotic, My husband is a low neurotic. My daughter is a high neurotic. It's one of the reasons why I think she's ambiverted is she worries about the worst that could happen. Now I went into this research and I was like, is this a choice?

Do I have any choice over this? What they found is that neuroticism is partially heritable. In fact, they've even pinpointed a gene, it's called the serotonin transport gene, that neurotics carry the long form of, which means that if you have the long version of this gene, you produce less serotonin and you produce it more slowly. This is why I'm a worrier, is because when bad things happen to me, I recover chemically less quickly. My husband, who has the short version,

I'll say, we're in the car and we almost get hit. We don't get hit, we almost get hit. We both have adrenaline and cortisol spike. My husband, his body and brain go, oh, we're okay, serotonin, calm down, you're okay. My body goes, oh! And very slowly trickles the serotonin. So even a half an hour later, I'm still kinda jittery.

No way. And that is because I literally have less serotonin in my body because I produce it more slowly. I have a slow form of that gene. So why I share this is because I do believe we have some control over our moods and our feelings, I do. But we also do have genetic expressions of things. And so if you have a worrier who you're married to,

it's probably a physiological response that they're worrying because they're literally producing that chemical more slowly. And so that means you just gotta give them a little more time. This is, oh sorry. No, I was gonna say just don't make any major decisions when they're not having a lot of serotonin.

And so I will literally say to Scott, like I know I cannot make a major decision after I got a bad email. Like if I get a bad email, like someone tells me bad news, I am not allowed to make any decisions for like 30 to 45 minutes. I will back away from my computer, I can go to snack, I take a walk outside, I can give a snuggle to my kids

because I know that my chemical is not there yet. And then I'm totally fine, Back to myself 45 minutes later. I think if we know this about ourselves, we can control it. So is communication the key to solving issues within a relationship where you're having less serotonin or serotonin is recovering slower than your husband? Is good communication like the key to keeping like a marriage from going to divorce? You know, is that the key? Communication and self-regulation, right?

So if you know that you have your opposites, and that's just one of the personality traits, we can talk about other ones. You know that you're a neurotic married to a, by the way, it's beautiful to have a marriage with a low and a high neurotic. This is a beautiful, beautiful marriage. Because the low neurotic, you need all the personality traits. We need diversity of personality, right? In my marriage, because I worry, I think of plans A, B, C, and D. So I make it so we don't get into a crisis very often. Like I have it all planned out. He's a fly by the city of your pants

kind of guy. That's me. Yeah. He's like, his spontaneity also makes us have more fun. Do you think I'm high neurotic then? I just think about us like going to the airport and days we travel, you just get really stressed. You get really, really stressed because you know. The airport is a great example actually because I don't feel like I typically am.

But I've just never, okay. The airport I am. We've missed one flight in our entire life and that was a completely unique circumstance. Like it could happen. Other than that, we've never missed a flight. That was like super unique. We were on the plane already.

We had to get off the plane. They were fixing all this stuff. We were getting lunch while the plane left because they told us the plane was not going to leave for two hours, but then they left in like two minutes. So this is way, yeah, this is way off script, but like we've never missed a flight. And so I'm just like, yeah, we're chilling, dude. And Abby's like, no, we need to leave now. And I'm like, no, we're chilling.

Like we're fine. And we never missed the flight. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we've cut it very close. Yeah. We've never cut it close. They've never actually even closed the doors on us. All right. Cutting it close is like sprinting to the airport, you know, freaking what's McCauley Calkin, Home Alone style. Like they're shutting the doors of the plane and you like, no, and you get in that's kind of close. That's never happened. Wow. Ever. Okay. Neuroticism is not logical.

That's never happened. Wow. Ever. Okay, neuroticism is not logical. Neuroticism is not logical. And so this will drive you crazy because it's not logical. And so worriers worry as an investment in failure prevention. And so I think that you have to realize

from a communication standpoint is that when Abby worries, she is worrying to calm herself down. Like she wants to prevent. We're looking at a therapy session right now. Yeah, right? And so like, and then you have to know herself down. Like she wants to prevent. We're looking at therapy session right now. Yeah, right? And so like, and then you have to know that your worrying is not gonna prevent failures. And so after a certain point,

you should cut yourself off, right? So like I know that if I'm worrying, I'm like, okay, I can't make a decision for 45 minutes. And I just have to like, let it go. I literally can't worry about it. Like I was late, my flight was delayed today. And I'm like, we're sitting there and we try to get another flight, no other flights.

And I was like, I'm gonna worry about this. I'm gonna text Addie and then I'm just going toie, and then I'm just going to let it go. I'm just going to let it go. Because I knew that if I got myself worked up, I would not be okay for the interview, right? And so like, I think it's communication and self-regulation. So knowing your partner's neuroticism and knowing their strengths,

like my husband is amazing in a crisis. He's so calm, he's the guy I want in a crisis because he's not worried. Whereas I'm the one who prevents crises from happening in the first place. Because I have Plan A, B, C, D. It's beautiful to have that. So you have to appreciate what you really love about them and communicate I'm so grateful for you. You're my rock in this crisis and I need to just vent out loud for you. Right? Like I need to communicate what you need to be able to self-regulate. The other one that I wanted to point out is openness.

So I hear about this a lot in marriages where there's a difference in openness. So of the big five personality traits, I call them ocean, openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. There's five. This is way more research-backed than Enneagram or DISC or Myers-Briggs.

This is the most research-backed across genders, cultures, and races. So it's really good science. Openness is the most, I think the most important when it comes first, which is how you relate to new. High open people love new. They love to try new things, new restaurants. They thrive on new. They are like fed by new. My low open people love tradition.

They love ritual. They love routine. They thrive in routine. New gets them a little uncomfortable. And so this can be a huge fight in a marriage because what's happening chemically? Chemically, high opens often carry DRD4. It's a gene specifically that relates to adrenaline and dopamine. High opens get more of a chemical hit of pleasure when they try new things. So the risk of trying a new restaurant and having it be bad is worth the chemical possibility that it could be amazing. They tend to be skydivers. They tend to be gamblers. they can often be addicts and that's because they are so seekers of

that novelty because they get such chemical pleasure from that newness. I feel like you're literally like describing me right now but but at the same time though I feel like I like to take calculated risks. Yes that's good. Matt, you love going to Cheesecake Factory and getting the chicken madera every time. I do love the chicken. And then you, they got rid of the hibashi steak. Have you ever had the hibashi steak before they got rid of it?

The chicken Madera is so good. And the chicken Madera is amazing too. But- He's not sponsored by Cheesecake Factory. Although I would take a gift card. That would be amazing. I would also take a gift card. That's our day night spot, okay?

Okay. But, excuse me. No, but I do, like every time we travel somewhere, I'm like, we gotta move here. And Abby's like, you say that every time we go somewhere new. Yes, my husband's the same. My husband will be in a place that's beautiful

for one minute and he'll be like Redfin, like looking up real estate. You know, he's like, oh my gosh, look at these homes. Look at these home prices. I'm like, what are you talking about? Our life is in Austin. Okay, and I lived in Oregon by by the way, and it was lovely. It's beautiful.

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Lots of rain, though. So, high open folks, you're seeking that novelty, because you know you get a lot of pleasure from it. Low open folks do not get as chemical of a burst. So they're like, why would I risk a bad meal when I can have my favorite? And low open people, they want to go to the same restaurant

with the same waiter, order the same thing in the same way every time. Because for them, there's no chemical pleasure from the risk of trying something new. And they get a lot of security and feeling like I'm okay with the ritual routine. Neither of these are right or wrong, but they can cause massive problems in a marriage.

And so it's really important to communicate and self-regulate, okay? So you're gonna communicate what are your openness needs or your ritual needs. Like if you're someone who needs ritual, you should be saying not, I don't wanna mess up the routine. That's the wrong way to communicate.

The right way to communicate is, hey, on Christmas, it's a really important holiday for me. I love to have like the same breakfast we've always had. And I love to do this with the tree. And I don't wanna go to Hawaii for Christmas because I really love that ritual. It makes me feel like it's my favorite family moment of the year.

That's the way to communicate that. And then for the partner who's like, but I want to try something new. Self-regulation is what else could you do new that would scratch the itch? What else can we do that would make you feel a little bit of that high open pleasure that's not going to take away my ritual?

That's beautiful because it's like then you can both get your happiness. That's it. But without effing up the other person's happiness. That's it. Well, okay, who is the person though who can be both the open person but closed? Because when you mentioned the restaurant thing, I love new, but for whatever reason, like I could go to Cheesecake Factory every week. Okay, so everything is a spectrum. So every person, they've literally found this.

And when I, so by the way, you're welcome to find it yourself. I have a free test on my website. You can take as many times as you want. Take it yourself, take it with your partner and compare your results. The reason why I have it up for free is you can take it. So it's a spectrum, so we can plot you on the spectrum.

So it's very rare that someone is super, super high open and super, super low open. Usually we're somewhere in between. So like an ambivert on the extraversion scale is right in the middle. An ambivert, my daughter's an ambivert and I'm an ambivert, which means I can be very social and very chatty in this situation.

I'm very comfortable. If you were to say, do you wanna go to happy hour? I'd be like, no. Wanna go to a big nightclub? No, thank you. Like those big conference mingling times cannot do because that's like too extravagant for me. It's too much small talk.

It's too much chit chat. I can't do it. It's too many strangers. Whereas like two strangers, I can do it. Like we have a goal together, I can do it. But I need lots of recharge time. Like I need lots of recharge time. So where you are in the spectrum

can dictate how much you're willing to do. Like a very high open person, they are imprisoned by too much ritual. They're moving all the time. They can't stand having a job that has the same thing every day because it literally makes them feel like handcuffed. So knowing where you fall on the spectrum

is also really good. So you're probably in the middle of openness actually. Yeah, it's funny listening to your interviews, I realized, oh my gosh, I've never heard this word ambivert. Ambivert, yeah. But it made me feel very seen. You're ambivert, right? I think I am.

I think I am because I'm very, I love people. I love conversations. I love getting to hear new ideas and I'm very curious. But there's certain settings where I'm around a lot of people and I feel so uncomfortable. Totally. I feel so much anxiety and stress. Yes.

And I'm like, what do they think? Do they think I'm weird? Do they think I'm smiling funny? Did I say something stupid? Yeah. You know, so I feel like the ambivert thing really resonated with me. And I think letting your children be ambiverts, most people actually are ambiverts. And so I think sometimes we can say like, oh, she's so shy.

You know, give her ambivert as a title, right? Like, I think that's a gift to give our kids of like the like self-knowledge to be like, hey, like there's certain people who you love to be around. You're yourself, you're fun, you're talkative, and there's some people who are like, maybe like you need to take a little time. Be a little quieter.

Like what a gift to give them. So on your site is where the five. Yes, sciencethepeople.com slash personality. Is there a brief synopsis you can give of each of the five? Yeah. Okay, so openness, how you approach new. Neuroticism we did. How you approach worry.

Next one is conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is how you approach details. So hi conscientious folks. Love organizing. This is me. I get like an adrenaline rush when I alphabetize. Like I like love it. I like love office supplies and color coding and alphabetizing.

I love a spreadsheet. I love details. Like the more details you give me, the better. It's why I love research. Love it. Like it's a problem for me as a teacher that I give too many details. I'm so sorry if I've already given too many details. Like I go too into the weeds. Like I don so sorry if I've already given too many details.

I go too into the weeds. I don't know if you needed to know the name of the gene, DRD4, but I had to tell you. You know what I mean? I needed to tell you that. It was a really important detail to me. So high conscious people, we love details. We love a clean house.

We're very organized. High conscientious. We also remember a lot of details. I have a very good memory. If my husband said one wrong thing 10 years ago, I remember. Good and bad. It's good and bad.

Low contentious person are our free flowing birds. There are the people who say a phrase that I never say, which is like, let's just wait and see. That's just not something that I say. Or they'll be like, let's just see how it goes. Let's see how we feel. And I'm like, but what's the schedule? You know what I mean?

So they're very free flow. They're very good at being spontaneous. They're so good at enjoying the moment. That's something that I struggle with. They also are people who come up with really creative, amazing, spontaneous ideas. And so that can also be an issue in a marriage. They've actually found that two low-cont people in a marriage have financial problems and that is

because if both people are free-flowing and like spend as you wish, no one's paying the bills. Yeah. Right? And so like that can be a money can be an issue there with high consciousness, budgeting and details and like we can't be spontaneous and flexible at this moment because we have goals, we have budgeting goals. So a lot of money talk, money issues are about, when someone says they're having financial fight, I'll say, let's figure out your conscientiousness, it's probably that.

So, gots conscientiousness. The next one is extraversion, which we talked about. So high extroverts get energy from being with people. Low extroverts, also called introverts, lose energy from being with people, they gain energy being, also called introverts, lose energy from being with people. They gain energy being alone. Something important to know about introverts too is if you're having a bad day and you're an introvert,

you want to be alone to be okay. If you're having a bad day as an extrovert, you want to be with others to be okay. If you're having a good day and you're extrovert, you want to celebrate with others to celebrate the win. If you're an introvert and you have extrovert, you wanna celebrate with others to celebrate the win. If you're an introvert and you have a good day, you wanna be alone to relish it by yourself. But an ambivert is a mixture of the two.

Correct. Okay, that makes sense, because I've always, I started to think, oh my gosh, I'm actually an introvert, but I'm not. Like it's kind of, yeah, it's cool to know that there's actually a third category that nobody ever talks about. No one talks about, and actually,

they think about 80% of people are actually ambiverted. Very few people are the extremes. And so this is good to, I share the good day bad day because I think like in a relationship where like even with your kids, like if they've had a bad day an extrovert's like, well let's go out and like, you know, cheer you up. And they're like, I just wanna be alone on the kids.

I think you're an expert. Abby's an extrovert. You have to be an extrovert. I think I might be. You love being around people. When you're like, let's go, okay, you're sad, let's just get up and go. Do something to make you happy.

I'm like heating blanket in front of the TV on my couch. That's what I wanna do on a bad day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just share that because that's even a very small, but can be a significant thing of how you make your kids, your partner feel felt cared for. So that's extraversion. The last one's the hardest one, which is agreeableness.

This is how you approach cooperation. So highly agreeable people say default to yes. They say yes to everything, even if they don't really wanna do it, because they are people pleasers. So they're like, oh yes, you know you're in a relationship with a highly agreeable person if they say yes

and cancel on you all the time. Oh. Because they say, yes, I wanna do that, and they're like, oh actually I don't wanna do that, I'm not showing up. Oh. Right, or they say yes, they overburden themselves. They say yes to way, way too many things

because they so want to do all the things and they so wanna please. They're very agreeable. They also will say yes like if, like they won't send their food back if something's wrong with their food because they don't wanna like upset anyone. They can be great team players

because they're very good at cooperation. They're very good, like they'll go with the team, they'll go with what everyone else is saying, but sometimes they say yes to too much. And sometimes it can be hard on a team because they'll say yes and not do it. This might be too deep for this podcast, but I want to go really deep. I love questions like this.

Do you view humans as naturally good or naturally bad? Naturally good. Very much. Do you? I kind of feel like I'm somewhere in the middle where I just view like, we are just all human and then like my take is don't take it personally the way people treat you good or bad because everyone is just a person and you have no idea the good thing that happened to them that made you be made them be nice to you or the bad

thing that happened to them that made them be mean to you. You might be actually medium or low agreeable. That's a very that's a very low agreeable thing to say. I am a little bit higher on the agreeable in the spectrum. So low agreeable people default to know and they're very skeptical Is that your husband? Yeah, but it's but he's different than you so that probably was attractive that he was different Right like he like I'll be like, I'm sure it's fine. Like I'm sure she means well and he's like, I don't know Let's look at that. Like let's look a little deeper into that, you know Like he like we want to dig a little bit deeper. So low agreeable people, they default to no. Even if it's gonna mean upsetting people, they don't care.

They would rather get it right than be liked, right? And so low agreeable people, they're very skeptical. They tend to be very data and numbers based. Yeah. They don't wanna give you a yes until they're absolutely sure it's a yes. And so it can be challenging in a friendship, you know, because I have a low agreeable friend

and I'm like, let's go to like, I don't even know, let's go to a comedy club, it'll be so fun. And she's like, I don't know about that. They often are too cool for stuff. They're like too cool for school, don't wanna say yes, wanna play a little hard to get, like it's a way of being that low agreeableness. I don't think you're that low.

I feel very targeted right now. I'm very offended. Because see that's weird. Yeah, Matt's an anomaly I think in a lot of ways. So you say yes really quickly, but then you might not actually mean it. I'm like Matt, let your guesses be yes. No, I am just weird and I think that's why

I've had such low self esteem. No, I think I've had, I like weird. I need to stop talking about myself because we're interviewing you, but I'm learning a lot from you and I resonate with I'm a recovering awkward person because I grew up snowboarding, but I did ballet. Yeah. That is weird.

Yeah. And so, yeah, I find a lot of courage from your story and your work just to know, oh, I can tell people that I did, I'm a ballet guy, but I also like to snowboard. Like, I can say that and that's okay. And the people that don't, that do think that's weird to a point where they don't wanna be my friend,

not your people. True, I'm not my people. I don't wanna be your friend. And that's a great allergy. Like you don't want someone who's like, ew, ballet, not your person. Matt loves ballet. I do, no, we took ballet together in college.

Yeah, but like that's a great allergy for you of like, like for example, I don't like too cool people. So I have trouble with this friend. Like this friend who's like too cool for things, like we, like, it's a little bit hard for me. I agree, that's something I don't like. Yeah, it's a challenge and I like, I love her, but like, just like be uncool sometimes. Like it's a little bit hard for me. I agree, that's something I don't like. Yeah, it's a challenge and I like, I love her, but like, just like be uncool sometimes, like it's okay.

Like try like something you wouldn't normally say yes to, like it's okay. If there's one like thing I could leave with the world is like, can we all just be our weird selves and like love us for it? Yes, yes. Right, like can we all just do that? Like we're all weird, we're all a little weird.

And so like, if we could just be like here's my weird, here's the weird thing about me, and like love each other for it, or be like oh that's not like my flavor of weird, like you do you. Like that would be if I could like let people do that. Like that's why the opening line of my first book is I'm a recovering awkward person.

Is to give people permission to be like oh me too. Me too. Let's not pretend. And it's because of that, that people gravitated more to you than the billionaire in the room. When everyone, like, I love that story. That story was cracking me up.

Like, I'm like, what? I think about it all the time. Oh my gosh. Just be yourself and don't try to hide it, right? Like, I think that because I was like, authentically myself, I found my people so much faster. So what do you do if in your marriage you, and I'm asking like this for us, but this is just for a general question. You've asked a lot of that. I'm like, okay, well what if you're married to your

dream killer? I'm like, what is she asking you to say? I'm trying to get deep here. I'm trying to learn. I'm also trying to ask questions that like people listening in. I'm gonna get in the car and be like, what dream am I killing? Please. No, but I was asking from a place of like- I'm also trying to ask questions that like people listening in. I'm gonna get in the car and be like, what dream am I killing this man? No, but I was asking from a place of like... I'm seeing some contempt here. Well, I was asking too... Well, he wanted to move to Oregon. You killed that dream.

I've killed that one and everywhere else he's wanted to move. Everywhere else. And I killed those dreams too. Every time he opens up Redfin in a random place that we're at. And I'm like, no! Delete that app! Yes, seriously. No, but I guess like for someone who is finding that,

okay, maybe you mentioned all this stuff about like the allergies, right, with friends. But then what if someone watching this right now is like, that person is my spouse. Like how sad would that be, right? And so how do you approach that? How, what can, I think it's easier to change yourself than it is to change other people.

So, you know, they've committed to this person, what should that person who heard you talk about allergies, thought about their spouse, what should they do to try to people. So, you know, they've committed to this person. What should that person who heard you talk about allergies thought about their spouse? What should they do to try to make things work, to try to try to make things better in their own marriage? Yeah. So there is something called free trait theory. It's based on these five personality traits. So these five personality traits are very well studied. They've been the research and a lot of them are heritable. And that means that a lot of them don't change. Right? So if you are high neurotic, you're set that way for life. And these researchers were like,

ooh, this is not good, like this can't be right. Like this can't be right, people do change. And so they did all these studies on like one, what changes over time. And people do change over time. You can modify your personality to a certain extent. So free trait theory basically says, if you have a goal, you can modify your traits.

If you have a really specific goal. The kind of famous example is Jackie Kennedy. Jackie Kennedy was a severe introvert, but her husband wanted to be president of the United States. Okay? And she loved her husband, and so she was like, uh-oh. And so she had to figure out how to dial into AMBA version, to be on interviews, to go out in public, to shake hands.

She had to figure that out for her husband, and that was not something she enjoyed, but she figured it out, and she did exceptionally well. She was known as one of the most classy, amazing, you know, president's wives. Yeah. So I share that story because I think if you or your husband has a goal,

you need to figure out how much can you change of yourself while still feeling like yourself. Yeah. Now that could be 20% for you and 30% for them. You know, it could be 5% for you and 10% for them. And so it's getting in your marriage and being like, okay, where are we different? What are these allergies?

How much do I need to change for this? Like, so for example, my husband is super high open and he loves, loves, loves international travel. I travel a lot for work. So for me, like, it's just, I don't want to. So we have decided, okay, he can do little mileage runs. Like, he can go like somewhere really, he literally will fly somewhere like Singapore

for a day and fly right back. Like, he will like do the just just for the sake of being on the flight because he loves it he gets a lot of miles for us great it's only two days for me I can stay with my kids I hang out with my girlfriends so we figured out like it's not me taking more international trips although we are doing one every two years it's actually letting him that's like it tickles him like it tickles his dopamine he like loves that so much so like what are the ways that like he can feel like himself and I can feel like myself without totally sacrificing who we are

That's beautiful. So I think that it's that conversation of like, all right, this is an allergy that you have This is where I am on the on the scale. What can we do? How can we meet a little bit closer to the middle? we interviewed one of our favorite artists on on the show Johnny swim we use their music in our wedding and favorite artists on on this show, Johnny Swim, we use their music in our wedding. And Amanda wrote her husband, Abner, their music duo together, she wrote him this love song called Sillis-Ivan. And one of the main lyrics from the song is, if you change, I'm changing too. There you go. That's it.

That's it. And like, what if we did that in all of our relationships? Like what if we like saw where our friends are, saw where our kids are, saw where our partners are and we're like, okay, like if you're changing, I'm gonna change with you. Like let's do this together. I was even talking to a friend and we figured like we've been together with our partners for so long

that I almost feel like I've been married to different men. Yeah. You know, like as he's gone, like we were together at 20 and so we've changed a lot over the last 18 years, almost 20 years now and like that's a good thing. I feel like he's been different, I've been different, and we had dinner two nights ago and I was like,

so actually here's a tool for you. There are nine questions that I've developed that I think can transform your relationship. If you ask these nine questions once a year to your partner or the people who matter to you, it will transform your relationships. And they are based on the science of connection. Dr. Dan McAdams found that there are three levels of connection. This is what my next book is about. This is why my husband wanted to name it connection. This is why I wanted to name it conversation.

Same principle, different title. What he found is that in order to feel rapport with someone else, in order to feel truly connected to another human being, you have to pass through these three levels. The first one is called general traits. It's like your basic facts, hometown, family status, occupation. This is why we are constantly stuck in like, what do you do? Where are you from?

Level one. I hate that I ask those questions. I hate it. I do it all the time and it pisses me off. I'm done doing that. I know. The reason why we do it is because we're actually trying to pass through level one as quickly as possible.

You actually can't connect with someone if you don't know that You can't feel truly bonded to someone if you don't know if they're married or if they have kids or their job is it's really really Hard to feel connected to them if you don't have that I would say replace those questions with the questions that I'm gonna teach you Level two is called personal concerns. This is if you know someone's goals values motivations personality traits So once you begin to know oh someone's conscient, values, motivations, personality traits. So once you begin to know, oh, someone's conscientiousness, oh, what's her biggest goal in life, oh, what worries her, you're in level two with them.

That's when we have the next level of relationship. The last one, the hardest one is called self-narrative. This is when you know the story someone tells themselves about themselves. How someone makes sense of their own journey and purpose in life. We all have a self-narrative. Some of us don't even know what our own self-narratives are. I didn't until I read this research. The story you tell yourself about yourself is critical for how you're going to make decisions. So for example, a very common self-narrative is a hero self-narrative. The story is, I had challenges, I had mistakes, but with smarts and hard work,

I was able to overcome That would repeat over and over again. That's one. That's my narrative So like I feel like I'm a recovering awkward person like I was awkward, but I conquered it. I'm recovering. I'm in recovery So anytime I have a situation that I'm like with business or I'm like, no I can figure this out like I can figure this out with my with my smarts on my hard work. I can be recovering Another opposite of that is a victim. Someone who has a victim self-narrative also feels challenges, mistakes, but they weren't able to overcome.

They feel unlucky. They feel like they can never do better. And they are constantly in that narrative. Everything is woe is them. Ah, I can't do anything about it. I can't change it. I don't like this. And they're in that victim self-narrative.

That is the highest level of knowing if you know in that victim self-narrative. That is the highest level of knowing, if you know what someone's self-narrative is. So these nine questions are designed to move you through those levels, and if you can do them with your partner or your spouse, it is game-changing. I do them with my partner once a year. We just did them on Valentine's Day,

so we just finished these, doing these. So here they are, level one. And these ones you can do with your kids, your teammates, and in new relationships. What was your kids, your teammates, and new relationships. What was the highlight of your day? This is only to break the social script of how are you. Yeah. Right, like you see an old friend, how are you?

Good, busy, how are you? That's how it is. You asked someone that's the question. So what was the highlight of your day, what was the highlight of your week is a way to break how are you, and you'll learn something. Could how are you though be made stronger something. Could how are you though be made stronger if it was how are you actually?

Like don't just give me the same simple trick. Actually tell me how you are. And if it's really crappy right now, like I wanna know, cause I actually care about you. Yes, how are you actually, how are you really totally breaks that script. I also, I just put this on my Instagram and it's like going totally viral,

which is for the record, I want the real reason. I want the long answer to how are you. So I can say like, how are you? I want the long answer. That also breaks the script. You know how when you go to a store, people will say, how are you? Like a worker or something. I've been saying horrible just to see how they react.

And it is so funny. Like they are so uncomfortable. And then I start laughing and they start laughing and immediately we're friends. It's like, okay, we're besties. You broke the script. So your answer can also break the script like if you're asked how are you you have an opportunity to break the script with your answer. Now that might be how dad jokes are formed though. I'm working on my dad jokes. I'm working on them. I think that might be like everyone laughed and everyone just felt laughed because they felt uncomfortable. But I've been a dad two and a half years now and I've got a freaking embodied. You've earned the embodied. They're trying to give you a gift. You've earned the right to have dad jokes.

Thank you. That's my goal. Yes, you have. Yes. And everything that every dad says, I don't know if you say this all the time, is like your kids are doing something like very energetic and the dad goes, they're going to sleep well tonight. Yeah. You're like, actually. That's a nice laugh. Yeah, that is a dad. Thank you to Haya for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Our son, our two year old, because our one year old's not old enough yet, loves Haya. But the nice thing about Haya is it doesn't have all that added junk that a lot

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Just scoop it, shake it, and sip it with milk or any non-dairy beverage for a delicious and nutritious boost your kids will actually enjoy. And we've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best selling children's vitamin. Receive 50% off your first order. To claim the deal you must go to hayahealth.com slash unplanned. This deal is not available on the regular website. Go to h-I-Y-A-H-E-A-L-T-H.com slash unplanned and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. You can also, so asking what was the highlight of your day

and then what personal passion project are you working on? Or if you wanna know what they do, you don't know what they do, you can say working on anything exciting these days? Because then it's permission. Right? Like, what do you do is really asking someone what are you worth? And I don't want to do that to someone else. Especially if someone's not defined by what they do or they don't feel like what they do matters. So if I say, working on anything exciting recently, I am giving you permission to tell me

whatever excites you, whether that's a personal passion or your job or your kids, right? Like that's a very, it's also like if you have a stay at home mom who doesn't like the question, what do you do, if I say, working on anything exciting, they can say, yes, I'm working on this with my kids or this is my PTA or I'm homeschooling. Great, a gift to them. So, let's see if I remember.

What was the highlight of your day? Working on anything exciting or personal passion. Third, this is for people you see regularly. Do you have anything exciting coming up this weekend? Vacation, holiday, spring break, summer? It's future dopamine. These questions, I designed them these first three, they are dopamine juicers.

All I'm trying to do is ask you a question that's going to juice dopamine from another area of your life. So if I ask you, working on anything exciting, you're like, exciting, exciting. You know, I am excited about, I've just borrowed dopamine from something else for our conversation, which gives you energy,

which gives you motivation and makes you feel good, right? Dr. John Medina has also found that if we produce dopamine in a conversation, we become more memorable. So I want my conversations to be super memorable and I want them to be a pleasure. I don't want to ask a question that's going to make someone uncomfortable. So if I say to them, you know, what personal passion about you're working on and they're like, oh, let me tell you that's like giving them the gift of dopamine, which makes them feel better. Those are the first three. And you could ask that last one, the trick that I have is a very easy one is on Mondays and Tuesdays, I ask everyone on my team, all my friends, you do anything exciting this past weekend?

Right, do some dopamine from their weekend. On Thursdays and Fridays, I always ask, do you anything exciting this upcoming weekend? And on Wednesdays, I don't talk to anyone. It's like don't. Then it's the highlight of your weeks I don't talk to anyone. It's like don't. Then it's the highlight of your week. I don't have a question for you. Exactly, we're out. We're out on Wednesdays and inside days and everything.

Right, so like I know that those are my go-to questions. I don't have to think about it. And my friends know this too. So on our team, my team is virtual, it's lots of people. We have people all over the world. I noticed that my team calls all started like accidentally negative, like ugh over the world. I noticed that my team calls all started like accidentally negative, like, ugh, the weather. Ugh, the traffic.

And it was like, kind of this like awkward, negative small talk and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no more. So I changed it, I said, okay guys, the moment we get on a call, we are starting with something good. I want everyone on the team to share something good. I don't care what it is, big or small, celebrate it, win, success.

And what's amazing is it's completely changed our team culture. Because one, we all start with something good, which is literally juice and dopamine. But second, my team member told me, you know, Vanessa, that question has changed my life because on Monday, if I haven't done something good, I do something good.

Like it makes me like go out and do something good. I'm like, yeah. Like when we ask better questions, we are giving people gifts of higher expectations. We're making them better. Like if you're asking someone, what's your personal passion project? And they go, I don't have one.

Opportunity. One, you can start to brainstorm with them. Well, what could you do that's passionate? Or I'm so sorry, tell me what's going on for you. Right, like either way it's an opportunity for depth. And then also it then says, oh you know, Vanessa's gonna ask me about my personal passion, I better work on that.

I love that you've also said that you quickly find out the people that you like by asking targeted questions like what are your goals? Because if the person doesn't have big goals, then you know because. Allergy. But yeah, that's your allergy. And I'm if the person doesn't have big goals, then you know because- Allergy. But yeah, that's your allergy. And I'm the same way.

I have big goals. I have big dreams. I see myself as a hero, so I wanna talk to other people that feel like they're a hero. Yeah. And I don't wanna be around people that have a victim mentality.

That gets you nothing. Agreed. What do you get? Is there anything to be gained at all from a victim mentality? At all? Sometimes there are dream killers and they can help poke holes. Oh, that's true. That's actually really good. That is valuable. That's valuable in some ways. So the goal question, thank you for bringing that up, that is the first question of level two.

So those three questions are level one. You should do them with everyone in your life. They're very easy. You should start questions like that. Level two, if you're like, I want to go a little deeper. What's your biggest goal right now, or what goal are you working on, is the next question, question number four. That is beginning to get into someone's values, their motivations, and it's one of my allergy questions. So I love asking pretty quickly in a relationship,

so what's your biggest goal? What was your new year's resolution? What goal are you working on right now? Because if they say no, I know we're probably not gonna get along. Like I'm just super, super goal oriented. My whole day is around micro wins, right? Like we're not gonna get along.

We don't have goals. And also then I learn so much about them. Like their answers usually surprise me. So asking about goals, it's a wonderful way to encourage goals and encourage like a little bit more depth. Then, this is a bigger one, and I'm not sure if I'm gonna include this in the book yet, because I'm not sure if I'm going to include this in the book yet because I'm literally actively writing right now, but I really like it, which is, what's

your expert power? I'm not sure how this is going to go in conversation because I teach this to my students, but I haven't tried it in like new conversation yet, so I have to test it with my students. But expert power is the influence that comes from having a unique skill set, knowledge, or expertise. I believe everyone should have an expert power and everyone does have an expert power. They just have to figure out what it is. And it might not be obvious.

Like some ones are obvious. Like I'm, you know, the most incredible, you know, I'm the most brilliant scientist. That would be an expert power. But I think a lot of times they're smaller. Like my husband is like finding things. He I think a lot of times they're smaller. My husband is finding things. He's a very, very good researcher. That was his answer when I asked this question on Valentine's Day is he can find anything.

He can find the cheapest flight to Turkey. I don't know how he does it. He can find an amazing deal on a home. We do real estate for fun on the side. He can find these incredible gems. He can find the sauna that's 50% off, but also wood burning and gonna be, I don't know how he does it.

That's his expert power, is researching. I think I have an expert power with words. I can try to turn an idea into something that someone could actually get. So helping people in your life find their expert power I think is really important, especially your kids and your partner. And even small ones matter, right? Cheering someone up, that's an expert power I think is really important, especially your kids and your partner.

And even small ones matter, right? Like cheering someone up, that's an expert power. High contentiousness, being an amazing organizer, that's an expert power. An incredible cook, that's an expert power. So I think like that expert power is really important and it brings me to the next question which is if someone doesn't have an expert power, you should ask, what are you learning right now? Or what's something you've always wanted to learn?

Because if someone doesn't have an expert power, maybe they could learn it and maybe you could help. I was taking a steam shower this morning with my AirPods in, listening to the end of your diary of a CEO interview, tearing up with what you said about President Harry Truman, because it just like hit me so hard when you mentioned that his expert power was being one-on-one in a room with someone talking to them. Because that is me.

Like that is me to a T. And I was like, I don't know. It's like, why am I crying? Like on a freaking, what is this Thursday morning? Like what's going on? Is this the steam? I'm worried about you bringing your air pods into the shower. I think too actually. They've actually made it through the wash before so they're pretty durable. But like are you gonna get electrocuted? And I was worried to mention the air pods because I know that you aren't a huge fan of

air pods which I like your point. It's a good point. But you're alone. It's okay. But anyway, I'm alone. I also don't like that. I'm listening to you talk about Truman and I'm like That's it. Yes. Okay. Why am I trying to play a game that I can't win? I should play the game that I can win, that I'm good at. And Truman was good at one-on-one conversation. That's me. I suck at like huge, big settings. That makes me nervous.

Me too. That's why we're Amber Virts. I felt like it was destiny. Like standing in the shower today, like freaking crying, like listening to this podcast. And I'm like, you were crying. Okay. I wasn't crying. I was tearing up.

I was emotional. It was very, it was a spiritual experience. I literally have had right now my phone screen. It's like, I'll show you. It's my, it's my sweet kids. So I have it like flip through photos of my kids, my wife, like my family, like that's what's most important to me. But for a little bit, I had the background photo as President Truman holding up the paper

where he won the election, but he actually said, the paper said that he lost because every, like everyone said he was going to lose and then he won. And I was like, that's f-ing cool. I love that comeback story. I love seeing someone who like has all the odds stacked against them and they come back. I love an underdog and I love that you're an underdog. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Well, thank you.

I'm like also just so touched and honored that you're asking these questions and letting me share this because this is like not, this is some hard stuff to talk about. I know people listening are probably like, this is making me uncomfortable, these questions. I know, we gotta be courageous. We gotta be courageous askers.

And like you're a courageous listener because you're like, I'm gonna take this in and I'm gonna feel it. So the Truman story, I gotta tell the Truman story. I was so inspired by this story. So Harry S. Truman, president of the United States, you would not think was a severe introvert. And he was at the 1944 Democratic National Convention

and he was the underdog. Everyone was like, you're a joke, you can't win, nobody likes you. He was so not favored, he wasn't even considered. And the way that a convention works, especially back then, was you fought on stage. You went up and you gave stump speech, you gave speech, you rallied for 10 minutes, you were on stage, you were fighting, you were gaining votes. And that's how you did it.

You were on stage. And Truman looked at that stage and he was like, I am not a good public speaker. He was not a good public speaker. He was not a good orator. And he was like, I am not going to win on that stage. I am not going to public speaker. He was not a good public speaker. He was not a good orator. So he was like, I am not gonna win on that stage. I am not gonna win giving speeches and passionate speeches. I can't do it. So instead, he was very clever.

He was very good at deep one-on-one conversations. He was really good at convincing someone one-on-one. So he found, it was very hot in Chicago that year. So the convention center was hot. He found the one air conditioned room in the basement and he rented it out. And one by one he'd grab a delegate and say, come on down with me to the air conditioned room I have. And they would sit in the air conditioning and they were like, oh, this is great.

And then Truman would just talk to them. Talk to them about who they were and about his ideas and what he believed in and what he could do. And one by one, literally vote by vote, he won the Democratic National Convention. He won the nomination. By one by one vote, by one on one conversations, by not competing on the stage where he knew he would lose, his expert power was one on one conversations. And so my goal is to help people find their expert power, no matter how small that is.

What is your expert power? That is going to give you a lot of micro wins. When we talk about micro wins, if you feel capable and like, yes, I got this. You do that by exercising your extra power every day. And so that second question and that one, three, four, five, fifth question. And then what are you learning? If we're helping everyone in our life, have a growth mindset and find their extra power, what a gift.

Those are level two questions, level three questions. How do you find yourself narrative? By the way, just answering these for yourself at first is hard enough, right? Like start with just your own answers. Okay, the last three questions are, how do you feel most misunderstood? I have asked this question to thousands of people

and everyone has had an answer, which means no one feels like they are understood. Everyone feels they're slightly misunderstood in some way. No one ever said to me, oh, Vanessa, I feel understood. No one ever in thousands of people. And so the fact that we all feel misunderstood in some way points to a deeper truth that we have to fix it. And so if you ask other people in your life, how do you feel most misunderstood?

You will learn so much about them. You will learn so much about them. You will learn so much about them. The most common answers to this question, by the way, so much so that I don't need to feel alone if this is your answer. People think I'm outgoing and extroverted and I'm not. I'm introverted and I'm scared and I'm anxious. Like I bet you people listening

are surprised by your answers. Really? I bet. I'm surprised by your answers and I listen to your podcast. No way. Yes. Wait, that actually means a answers and I listen to your podcast. No way. Yes. Which actually means a lot to you listening to our podcast. Yes. All the Duggar interviews are the best. No way. Thank you so much. Aren't they the best? Because I've wanted to hear their

story forever and you actually so kindly and wonderfully asked them. Anyway, thank you. That's so nice. Actually, that's the biggest compliment. We were shocked. I watched some documentaries they were in and I was like, I wanna interview these people. And it was just so cool to actually hear their story from them. You were the only ones who actually got, actually genuinely asked their story and gave them the safe space to share it.

And I was like, I watched all of them. Scott's like, oh, it's not in a happy, that's where we're going. I was like, all the Dougher interviews that I watched, that's them. You're so kind. They're a really sweet family. So I know.

Yeah, so positive. Yeah, so that's how I found you. And're so kind. They're a really sweet family. So, I know. Yeah, so positive. Yeah, so that's how I found you. And so it was surprising to me to hear that you feel awkward or uncomfortable because you seem so comfortable in this setting. Oh, thank you. I am comfortable in this setting. I know.

So like that question unlocks some things. The other thing that I hear a lot is like, people think I have it all together, but actually I'm very anxious and worried and scared. It's the other thing that I hear a lot. So giving someone permission to answer that question honestly and thinking about yourself, like how do you feel misunderstood?

So you can go correct it. Like I felt very misunderstood when I was hiding my awkwardness. Now I actually feel the most understood I've ever felt because I'm like, well, this is me. You know, take it or leave it, at least I'm understood, you know? And so, okay, that's the next question is,

this sounds kind of silly, but it's actually not silly. What book, movie, or TV character is most like you and why? I wanted to ask you that question. Me, that question? I wanted to ask you that. Yeah, we can do it, yeah. Yes, I'm happy to answer it. So this question, it's really important for a self-narrative to see how someone sees themselves

because you might see them as very different. And actually, I've asked this question to a lot of people, often not always answers shock me. I'm like, what? Like, that's how you see yourself. I'll give you one example that really changed my perspective on friendship. I asked this question to someone who I knew for many years. I lived in Portland for a decade.

I find her many years. Go to dinner all the time, hang out all the time on the weekend, know her kids, know her husband. I thought I was very, very close with her. Sitting at dinner, I was like, you know, I'm playing with this question for my research on self-narratives. What book or movie or TV character is most like you? Now, you have to say like you, not who you aspire to be.

Like most similar to you in values and personality and life choices, not looks, right? So it's important like that. Values, personality, life choices, who's like most like you? And I thought she was gonna say, she's a mom of three, I was like, oh I thought she was gonna say like, you know like a fun TV mom. Or like she's so funny and she's stay at home mom and I was like, it's I thought she was gonna say like, you know, like a fun TV mom. Or like, she's so funny and she's a stay at home mom.

And I was like, it's gonna be a mom for sure. She was like, oh, Katniss Everdeen. Why was that the first one that came to my mind? For yourself? I mean, not really, but like, I was like, that popped into my mind, I was like, no. Wait, that's so weird. But maybe that's like a-

Wait, I kinda see it though. I kinda see it, like- No! I'm like, I will step in for anybody. You're kind of the bad ass. I will fight you. Have you seen Abby in the gym? She's freaking tough. No. But I'm always thinking like that.

I'm like, who am I going to have to defend right now? Like since I became a mom, I think that's a mom thing maybe though too. I do too. I think there's like the gum. Because she's a motherly sister. Totally. So I was like, wow. And she goes, I feel like I'm fighting for my life every day.

I feel like I am struggling to survive. And this was before I became a mom. And I was like, oh, and it was the first time someone really told me how sometimes it's a struggle to be a mom. We feel like we're fighting to survive. We feel like we're trying to make it. And like, so I was like, it was the first time I had a real conversation with her. It felt like where I was like, Oh my gosh, tell me everything about that.

It changed our relationship. And I've had dozens of answers with people in my life where I'm like shocked to the core by their answer. And by the way, sometimes fundamentally disagree. You're like, eh. Sometimes I'm like, you got an ego? Not yet. Yes.

Where you're like, wow. And like the goal for me is not to convince someone that their self narrative is wrong, but it's like, whoa, that's, you see yourself. Good for me to know. Right, like it really helps predict behavior, understand their decisions. So it's really, that's fundamental.

So that's the next big question. For me, you know, Modern Family, Claire Dunphy, once she becomes a working mom, I feel like that's a little bit me. Like I really identify with her where she like, her family comes first, but she's also like really trying to kill it, like work wise, if you've ever seen that show.

What's it called? Modern Family. Modern Family. Why have I never, I know Modern Family. You've never seen it? I've never seen it. I haven't seen it, but there's- I get overwhelmed- Lately episodes. Why have I never seen it? You've never seen it? I haven't seen it, but there's- I get overwhelmed. There's so many episodes.

When she becomes a working mom and she's really struggling with balance. I feel like my life is actually quite light. I joke around a lot. I'm really silly with my girls. Same with her. My family is central, but working is like, that's a tough balance. That is the central struggle of my life, is work-life balance. I feel like I am on a mission to help people

feel less lonely and feel connected. But I also feel like I'm a mission to be a mom to these two girls. They don't always go together. Mm, yeah. Like not at all. How do you balance that? Exactly.

That's so hard. And that is exactly what this character struggles with. And so that's why I'm like, in a silly way, it's silly on the show. And I try to keep it light because I don't want that to bog me down, but it is a fundamental struggle, and that was her struggle in the show.

Do you have accountability partners outside of your husband that check in with you and make sure, hey, do you feel like you're doing everything you wanna do with work, but also with your family? Like, is there somebody like that in your life? No, my husband really is very in it with me. Like he's like so with me on it.

And he also is like a champion for me, like having some self care, like doing some fun things for myself. But he'd like your girls, you give them everything. Go speak on stage. You know what I mean? So he's like really in it with me. And he's like, your girls get you so much of the time

because my job is lucky where I can actually only work 20 hours a week. You know, I can take many, many days off and just speak on stage and earn enough for the whole month. So I'm very lucky in that way. He's like, you got this. Your girls got you, go, go. Like go reach all those folks.

Like you got it. So he's really the one. He's the one who supports that. So that's mine. So I highly recommend ask that question. And don't let someone wiggle out of it. People like to wiggle out of that question a little bit. They'll be like someone really handsome

or something like Matt Damon and whatever. And it's like no. I'm gonna be thinking about what I really think mine is. That's such an interesting question. And you gotta think about it. Yeah, I don't know, nothing comes to mind. Do you know yours? Well, I actually wanted to ask you a question.

This is kind of like a, this is a freaking wild card. Why not name the book Ask Better Questions? I like C words. Oh, it's the C words, the C words. I'm gonna have a C word. Got it, got it. They look good on the shelf together too. That's true, and like one word is very powerful,

which looks strong, which like, by the way, you look freaking like you're gonna conquer the world in this photo. It's the steeple. You know what I was thinking? It looks like the cover of a TV show. It does. So I think we need to find a different network. You need a Netflix show. I feel like a Netflix show would suit you well. About awkward people, I would love it. Wouldn't it be so fun?

People would love that. I would like love to help awkward people be less awkward and be so fun. Oh my gosh, people would love it. What if the title of the show is called Awkward People? Like that was literally- Yes. Recovering Awkward People. And you're- Oh yeah. Recovering Awkward People. And you're helping awkward people be less awkward. Yes. It's like Queer Eye for Awkwardness. Yes. Okay, this is her pitch. Honestly, this is what we need.

Is there somebody listening to this that can make this? Netflix, hello. I wanna know the last question. Last question. Okay, so you gotta work your way up to this, right? Like I don't, like if you ask the character question too early, you're gonna get a silly answer. So like, you really like wanna work your way

up to that question. So I want to like put that out there. Okay so the last question is who is your role model? So this is a question of like futureizing. Like sometimes you can assess someone's self-narrative by who they look up to and it should be like having a deep conversation about this is really important. So like who's your own model and why? Like why does why are you aspiring to be this person or be like this person? You'll hear the values they say.

It's the way they answer this, the way they explain things is really important. Like someone might say, oh, like I've asked this question to many people and they'll be like, oh, you know, Elon Musk is my role model. I'll say, okay, why? And they say, oh, you know, he's just,

he's made so much money and so much money and so much money and like all things about money. Now I might view Elon Musk differently than they do, but their answer is about money. So I say to them, ah, so to be successful, you need to be financially free. Yes, right. I just learned that a big piece

of their freedom self-narrative is financial success and financial freedom. Versus someone who's like, oh, Elon Musk, changing the world, investing in space, putting their money with technological advancement, okay, different answer, right? Then it's all about changing the world. And they'll say, oh, do you want to change the world?

If you had all the money in the world, what would you invest in? Very different. Then it's like, oh, their goal is not about financial success, it's about changing the world with inventions or technology. Very different things. So the why is gonna tell you everything you need to know about them.

Okay, evaluate this. So I really look up to Martha Stewart after watching her documentary. Loved her documentary. So good. That was good. So inspiring. Because first female billionaire, hello?

Like so, so powerful. See, he did it. You did the thing. You did it. You did it. What is the thing? What did I do? You set a financial thing first. Dang it. Freaking dang it. You know, I'm trying to trade. Okay, so here's the thing. It's deep in my identity because because when I was a kid again when I was a kid money scarce money was hard. And so in my brain money solves all the problems and it doesn't. So I'm trying to retrain my brain

that money doesn't solve all my problems because again like yeah it just doesn't. So I'm trying to retrain my brain that money doesn't solve all my problems because again, like, yeah, it just doesn't. But that's super important. Like, there's no wrong answer, right? Like, it is so important that for success to feel confident and to feel not scared, it does require money. And like, I think that's really important.

What's funny is I was about to talk about her overcoming obstacles, like she went to prison and I was gonna, I my first thought was like, oh, because she's a billionaire I was like, oh, I can't say that but then I still said it. It was real. But it was really just real. But I but I guess like it is really cool that she like came back from being in prison and yeah, like it is killing it again. Yes.

Like what a badass. Sorry. Can I say that? Yes. Yes, it's your podcast. I guess my podcast. Please don't judge your answers. Please don't judge your answers. For me, I just wanna know you, right? And so if you're like, I need to be a billionaire

to be successful, I'm like, okay, let's talk about that. Let's figure it out, what's the number? There is no judgment here. And so I think that it's really important, don't self-judge your answers. Don't pick the answer you think people wanna hear. And if you don't feel like you have someone to share it with, then don't share it.

Okay, here's why I do want to maybe be a billionaire. That sounds like really scary. But it's because you can do so much good. That's it. You can do so much good. If I am worth $10,000 or if I'm worth a billion dollars, I could do a lot more good in the world with more money because I could fund charities.

I could fund projects that are helping get food to people in countries that are under-resourced. I could fund projects that are helping get food to people in countries that are under-resourced. I could fund projects where people don't have the polio vaccine. There's still places that don't have resources like that. And it pisses me off that people are dying from easily preventable diseases in our world. I mean, I want to make enough money

so I can give it all away and then start a literacy nonprofit. That's awesome. That is my goal. Like I do not want to charge for what I do. I do not like it. I wish I could just do free education all the time. I wish I could give away my courses and books.

Like I wish I had no ads. Like I, that is not why I'm here. I'm here to get the message out. So I would like to make enough money and that's why we're working very, very hard to turn our profits into real estate and other things so that we can say, great, let's turn it into a B Corp.

Let's make it all free. And then I want to work on literacy. That's so cool. Like I'm an author. It kills me that there are millions of US adults who can't read. You're kidding. Yes. People that can't read in our country.

Millions of adults who cannot read. Millions of adults. So what kills me is I have this book and I speak to a group and someone comes to me and say I wish I could buy your book but I can't read. No. That is the problem I want to fix. And so that is like a very, very strong, I want, I really would like to work on literacy for prisons.

It helps with recidivism. It's what like so many of our inmates cannot read. I don't understand how we can not teach them to read. I don't understand it. Have you heard, have you read the book Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson? So good. Right?

And the people without the capital get the punishment. So f'd up. Like if you have enough money, you can just kind of get out anything in our country, which is like kind of screwed up, really screwed up. He talks a lot about recidivism, reads, I think, and that too. Literacy is one of the easiest things

we can do for recidivism. Because if you get out of prison and you can't read, how are you gonna apply to a job? How are you not gonna go into a job that doesn't require reading, which is not usually a good job? How are you gonna fix your resume? How are you gonna apply for an apartment? Like, it just, how are you gonna educate yourself. How are you gonna fix your resume?

How are you gonna apply for an apartment? Like it just, how are you gonna educate yourself? How are you gonna grow? So I'm just like, this is a problem we can fix. Once you teach someone to read, it's done. They read for the rest of their life. Couldn't that be like, if you started this, I'm trying to brainstorm right now,

because I love your idea. Could it be an app? Could it be some sort of program, even on YouTube? Like I know you have a background in YouTube. Yes. So my goal is to actually hire experts who are experts in literacy and ask them what is the fastest way to teach someone to read?

Wow. Right, like the way that we teach kids to read right now is for kindergartners. It's very different than adults. And so I'm like, what is the fastest way to teach an adult to read? There has to be a way, there has to be a program that teaches them to read fast. It has to be either audio or video.

Yep. Right? It has to be. So I need to develop that program first so that we can teach someone to read in two days. Would it be helpful if it were like an audio book? I don't know. Like I listen so- That's kind of what I'm wondering. Because I listen to educational material. I can't read it. I get so bored. I can go on a run and listen to an audio book. I can't sit and read an audio book.

It's just my ADHD. I'm just like, oh, let's go surf. That's why I recorded my audio books for people who are like, I only can do audio. I'm like, great, let me share the wisdom with you. I actually think it's either a free audio book or even like, this is like crazy, but I was like, what if I bought a radio station?

No way. And I just broadcasted literacy lessons. That's sick. You know, but the problem is you need to be able to see it. Yeah. Well, okay, but even people that are unhoused have iPhones, so like, or like smartphones. So what if it was the YouTube channel?

Like what if- Right, I think it could be. What if it's like Learn to Read? I don't know, but I guess it's just helping them, like because some of these people might not know that like, hey, this is like square one, you need to learn to read if you wanna get better. I would like to start that YouTube channel.

That's an awesome purpose. Like that's my purpose, it's very, you know, I don't know how long it will take me to try to do that, but like that's my goal. And so like when you talk to people about this, you want to be financially free because it makes you feel secure, so you can do good. That is not a bad answer. That is not a wrong answer.

And I don't think wanting money is a bad thing. I think it's an important part of our existence. So I think that we have to also listen with openness and listen with kindness to whatever the answer is going to be and not judge people for that answer. Wow. and with kindness to whatever the answer is going to be and not judge people for that answer. Wow. Well, Vanessa, thank you for teaching us about the nine questions that people can ask to have better relationships, better marriages, better friendships.

I mean, it seems like, I mean, it doesn't seem like you've studied this for a very long time. I've been doing a YouTube video a week for 17 years and I've been doing this communication research for 10. Amazing. So we're coming on a decade and that's why this book, this next book is like, it makes me nervous because it's so much of what I care about that I got to get it right. Everyone should go pick up a copy of Q's.

This is such an incredible book. Or Charisma. Or Charisma. Maybe consider getting it for a friend. I don't know. Read it with your partner. Yeah, getting it for a friend. I don't know. Maybe though. Read it with your partner. Yeah, read it with your partner. They're all like totally safe for families.

And also my first book, Captivate, is also like a little more fun. If you're looking for a more fun, playful book. And I read them both. So if you're like I'm an audio person, that's me too. Well, thank you so much. This has been incredible. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for asking the good questions. I love you guys.

The time just flew by. I can't believe we're talking this long. I'm scared. Yes. Thank you for being here. My pleasure.