The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Co-parenting with an addict: divorce & raising a son w/ autism ft Laura Clery

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

TRIGGER WARNING: Please note this episode contains themes of domestic violence, suicidal ideation, and drug use. Chilipad: Visit https://www.sleep.me/UNPLANNED to get up to $255 off your Chilipad 2.0 with code UNPLANNED, plus free shipping and a 30-day sleep trial for Unplanned Podcast listeners. Shopify: Start your free trial today https://shopify.com/unplanned Zocdoc: Taking care of your health just got easier – start here with Zocdoc: https://zocdoc.com/UNPLANNED #sponsored Miracle Brand: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/unplanned and use the code UNPLANNED to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. Laura Clery has spent years making millions of people laugh, but behind the comedy was a deeply personal battle with addiction, betrayal, and rebuilding her life from the ground up. In this episode, Laura opens up about her husband’s relapse, the end of their marriage, raising a son with autism, finding joy as a single mom, and why humor has remained her greatest survival tool through it all. She also shares the inspiration behind her new memoir, What Doesn’t Kill You Makes You Hotter, and the lessons she’s learned about forgiveness, recovery, and starting over. If you or someone you love has been affected by addiction, abuse, or mental health struggles, we hope this conversation reminds you that you’re not alone. Laura's IG: @lauraclery Follow The Unplanned Podcast: https://www.instagram.com/unplanned__podcast/ https://www.tiktok.com/@unplanned_podcast Listen to the pod on Spotify/ Apple Podcasts: https://open.spotify.com/show/1ToDA4ufQuWuEgMq07zN6t https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-unplanned-podcast/id1669604504 Follow Matt & Abby: Abby's Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/abbyelizabethoward/ Matt's Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/_matt_howard_/ TikTok | https://www.tiktok.com/@matt_and_abby Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/mattandabb YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/@MattandAbby Chapters: 03:14 - Raising a son with autism 12:20 - Becoming a NYTimes Best Selling Author 15:07 - Getting sober 25:19 - AA 30:26 - Being cheated on 47:06 - Finding meaning 53:48 - Divorce 56:32 - Sketch comedy with my ex 01:00:28 - CPS 01:12:34 - Coming to terms with abuse 01:14:25 - Moving on 01:17:01 - Audience questions 01:26:03 - Agree to Disagree Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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direct deposit and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit Cash. App slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. Trigger warning. Please note this episode contains themes of abuse, suicidal ideation, and drug use. He broke into my house and threatened me. I was on my way to the courthouse to go get the restraining order. And as I hear bang, bang, bang, bang, I turn. And there he is. Oh my gosh. You probably know Laura Claire. from her viral comedy sketches, stand-up comedy, or one of her New York Times bestselling books. Over the last decade, she's built a devoted audience

of more than 26 million followers. But behind the laughter, her life was quietly unraveling. I look on YouTube, and there's a video from him titled, I separated from my wife. I'm getting all this hate. You monster, you witch. I call 911, and I'm like, my son, he's six years old, he's nonverbal, he's been missing for 10 minutes.

Obviously, thinking of all the worst-case scenarios, like, was he hit, was he hit, Was he taken? Like, you just don't know if you're ever going to see your son again. We talked with Laura about her ex-husband's secret relapse, escaping what became an abusive relationship, and raising a son with autism, all on today's episode. Just so that I pronounce it correctly, Clary, right? Some people say Cleary, and some say Clary, and I just accept both.

I don't know how to pronounce my own last name. Are you serious? No, I think it's Clary. You think it's clear? Who can we contact? Well, ladies and Joe, welcome Laura Clary to the pod. Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me. You know, I've never flown anywhere to do a podcast before. Oh my gosh. You're my first flight. We're so honored. Seriously, so honored. Honestly, you guys are so honored. We are.

We are. Wait, what was it about us that made you, like, agree to flying to us? My publishers made me. What did they say? You're like, it's a great podcast. You need to get on there. Me, I love them. Oh, sorry, bleep that.

We'll bleep it out. We can mute it. Oh, man. Sorry. I got to watch my language. My daughter's five. She goes, I go, pretend to be me. And she goes, oh, I need coffee. That was her impersonation of me.

And I was like, that was good. And then she was like, you guys need to get in the bath right now or no more screen time. We need to get in the bath. You're filthy. And that was her next impression. And then her third one was, where the fuck in my purse? And I said, Happy, I don't say that.

She goes, yes, you do. So I really need to watch my language. Just bleep it. We definitely will. I think some people do listen to our podcast with their kids in the car. We typically keep it clean, but I'm curious. Wait, it's like for kids too. Oh, no.

No, okay. Yeah. Okay. But I mean, hey, as a mom to a five and seven year old, what's your take on that? Do you let your kids cuss? Are you not about it? I think it's so funny when kids swear. But I also say if my daughter ever says a little swear,

word. I'll say, don't ever say that in school. You can, you know, say it at home, fine, but never in school, never out. And she understands. I don't think it's a big deal. My son, when he's, and I don't condone it either. And I really do try to watch my language, you know, I just have a mouth like a truck driver, unfortunately. I'm working on it. Progress not perfection, people. But, but my son, I remember he, he's on the autism spectrum. And so he was nonverbal. he was diagnosed just under two with level three severe autism and they were told I was told he might never speak might never be independent and that was very terrifying um so when he started to speak every word was celebrated so when he walked around going oh shit I was like he said oh shit you know it was to be

celebrated oh when was it that he first started speaking well he just turned seven and I would say around six is when he really started putting sentences together. Yeah, just spontaneous sentences. I remember just getting him to say one word was, it took hours and hours of therapy. And then now he's at the point where he'll look at me and go, Mommy, let's go for a walk, you know, or I want toast and almond butter.

Aw. Yeah, it's hard for him, but he works so hard at every word. How often, because I've been listening to your podcast, I've been listening to the clips from from your show and you on other shows. And it sounds like it's quite the problem with making sure your son doesn't run away because of his condition. I want to say that you've said he just doesn't really sense danger like most other kids his age sense danger. And so I mean, there's been times where helicopters have had to go looking after your son. Correct? That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy.

So it's called eloping. Have you heard of the term eloping? Just through learning about you, honestly. Yeah. I know. There's like different definitions. He was not getting married. He, it's, it's when, you know, kids on the spectrum will often, you know, want to go explore.

They'll want to go or that, you know, it's in my son's case, it's not that he's just wandering aimlessly. He's on a mission. He's very self-directed and determined and in. intelligent and he wants what he wants. So they're extremely adventurous, but they lack a sense and curious, but they lack a sense of danger. So they're not, whereas my daughter at five and at four, right? I'm sure your kids know, like, I don't leave the house without my parents, you know. And my neighbor, one time, Alfie, my son, I think around four or five, hopped the fence to the next door neighbor and I got a call from my neighbor going, your son, which is.

was playing with my barbecue at five in the morning. I've got security footage. I've been playing with my barbecue. Buccaneat at five in the morning. And I was like, I'm so sorry. And can you send me the footage? And I am so sorry. So, you know, and then he literally

hopped the fence. Yes. And he played in their backyard. And then he hopped back and went back to bed. So I didn't even know. Are you serious? You had no idea. No clue.

So was that pre-getting a security system installed? Yep. I didn't always turn on that alarm at night. And after that, I always turned it on. So after that, and that was like, I think he was around four. I'm not kidding. Yeah. And so for about two months after that, every night around two or three in the morning,

I would get woken up to a crazy alarm. And then I come out and there's Alfie just like standing in the kitchen like, you cut me. You know? And then after that, he did stop. And now we're at the point actually where we bed chair. So like I know where he is at night. And it's actually so cute.

And we cuddle and sleep so well. And my daughter loves it too. Sweet. It is. Yeah. I love it. But so prime alloping years are like four to seven. Okay.

So I'm hoping knock on wood that he kind of grows out of this phase. But I was telling him before that. And I write about this story in my book. What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Matter. I have over 26 million followers at that. this point across all my platforms. That's insane. Yeah, it's crazy. I've been doing it so long, you know, but and so many of the women that follow me are, you know, parents of neurodivergent kids because I, because I do talk about that and it is such a like a unique struggle and,

you know, but anyway, he last summer, he looked at me in the morning and he said, candy and I said we don't we don't have candy and he said candy and I said bro we don't have candy I'm sorry and then I go off to yoga and about 15 minutes later my nanny calls me and she's like he's gone oh gosh yeah and I said what do you mean he's gone and she goes I was packing his bag to go to the dentist and he's gone we cannot find him anywhere I'm driving around the route that we normally take walks out because we go on like four walks a day it's crazy they never run out of energy and so I hop in my car and I call 911 and I'm like my son, he's six years old, he's nonverbal, he's got a red Spider-Man t-shirt on, he's been missing for 10 minutes.

And as I'm like speeding down the street on the phone with the police, like obviously thinking of all the worst case scenarios, like was he hit, was he taken? Like you just don't know if you're ever going to see your son again, you know. And then I see a cop on the other side of the street. I pull over. I rolled down my window and I screamed to the officer. I said, sir, my son, he's six years old, he's nonverbal, red Spider-Man t-shirt, he's been missing for 10 minutes. The cop goes, yeah, yeah, we got him. He's at the Ralph's, which is a local grocery store.

Yeah. Okay. And he, my son, figured out how to manually open the gate, my big gate where we thought he was secure on the other side of, figured out how to manually open it, and walked one point four miles to the store to get candy. That dude was cooking. He goes, yeah, the cop goes, just stay right there. I'll bring him to you. And then five minutes later, another squad car parks the car. Three cops get out and there's Alfie in front with a box of Sour Patch Kids and the biggest smile on his face walking towards me. Have you timed his mild time?

Because that's pretty insane. I mean, 10 minutes, 1.4 miles for a 7 year old. Come on now. He was six. For a 6 year old. Oh my gosh. I remember reading about that. That's like, I know.

He just knew what he wanted. So now I have trackers on him. He's got trackers on his shoes, tracker on his belt. I triple lock all of my doors. I have key locks on the inside. And you just, it is what it is. My life is never dull, not a dull moment, baby. What does that bill cost?

Don't like, I don't know, if they have to send out a helicopter to track down your kid, did they send you a bill? No. Oh, they don't. No, and I'm really grateful of the part of town I live in. It's a little more suburban parts. of L.A. and so it's a little quieter. And so the cops, they know Alfie. They know my son at this point. And they love him. And they understand that he's autistic. And this is, you know, they're just like,

they just adore him. But they know him. Girl. You said he got diagnosed at two. Just under two. What was just under two? Okay. So what was it that you were like, that led to that diagnosis? Yeah. He wasn't pointing and clapping. That was, that's an. indicator. He had a, like, a few words that he would say, he would say, mommy, daddy, monkey, doggy, and milk. Those were like the five words that he was saying. And he sort of just stopped saying those words, you know? You could call it a regression maybe, where he just like lost the few words that he had. Then he started having these meltdowns, stopped looking at me. When he did look at me, he looked kind of scared. And he's just sort of, yeah, those, those were the indicators.

for me. And then when I look that up, like, why isn't he talking anymore? He just was talking. And now he's not. Everything led back to autism. And so then I took him and got him assessed. And, you know, I still think that they were harsh. You know, how can you know that he's, quote, unquote, severe and will never speak or be independent and level three, like at such a young age? And I said that to the doctor. I said, how do you know that? And she said, this is my assessment. This is what I believe, you know. And she was. wrong. You know, I don't know, I don't know if he'll be independent. I believe he will. He's so intelligent and so driven. He has his special interest right now are shapes, but like not circles and

squares. I'm talking like octagonal prisms, um, dodecahedrons. He's like, draws 3D shapes all over the driveway. He, and he's just turned seven. That's amazing. I remember learning that. And is it true that? Okay, so that's like geometry. Yeah. Is it true that you end up retaking geometry? Three times. Look, it just all went to him. It just all went to him.

Are you dead? I just, I could never, I don't know. I don't know what it was. I love that. Maybe I just couldn't focus, you know? I was too busy trying to make people laugh or something. Three times I took it, yeah. And I think I finally passed it with a D the third time.

How does someone that couldn't pass geometry go from, yeah, go from that? Three times. To then writing, writing a book, not only one book, you've written two other books. You're a New York Times best-selling author. How did you get into that? Well, because it's not about geometry. This isn't about geography.

I don't have to write a geometry textbook. Okay, yeah. I'm really good at creative writing. I was always good at writing comedy and essays. And so that was one of my only skills. In fact, really young, I knew I was going to write comedy in whatever capacity. I wrote a letter to Lauren Michaels when I was like 10. I was like, Dear Lauren, I'm going to be on your show and I'm going to make it so great.

Love Laura. Thank you to ChiliPad for sponsoring this portion of today's video. Matt said something to me last night that was honestly so true. We're addicted to our chili pad. To the point where Matt literally was like, I don't know if I can sleep without it. Yeah, I just love going to bed with cold sheets. It feels so weird. Like, I want to get in bed right now.

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You can return it for free if you don't like it with your sleep trial. You're going to like it. Visit www.sleep.m.me.com. Slagliand and never wake up hot and tired again. I just like kind of, I was one of those. I always knew what I wanted to do, you know, and writing was part of it. And so, yeah. What would you say the main difference is from what doesn't kill you makes you hotter

from the other books that you've written? Well, they're all, they're all memoir, a collection of essays. So my first book, Idiot, which came out in 2019, that one. I was not, I was expecting my mom to buy it. I did not, it sold like crazy. And this was my story of how I went from becoming a broke, suicidal. drug addicted girl,

you know, hopping from one toxic relationship to the next to becoming a sober, spiritual, healthy, you know, at the time,

wife too, and living a life beyond my wildest dreams. I wrote about that transformation. So I got sober, very young, and just changed my life around.

Thank God I did. But that's that fuck. That was idiot. Yeah. And so, I write about like my drunkologs and the crazy dangerously impulsive situations I got myself into like going to a bar and I met some like random Irish guy at the bar and he was like, do you want to go to Mexico?

And I was like, yeah, sure, why not? And we just like hopped in the car and drove to Tijuana with like this guy that I just met five minutes ago, things like that. And you were 19. Hashtag relatable, right? We were actually engaged at night. Yeah. We, you know, that was when we went to Disney World and I proposed and I was, I had just turned 20.

So I was a fresh 20 year old. Reckless in a different way. Yeah, we were recklessly in love getting married. No, getting married that young. As teenagers. Yeah, that is crazy. I would argue that's crazier than going to Tijuana with a random Irish guy. Okay.

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Yeah. But things like that, you know, I just, um, I was dangerously impulsive and just kind of of reckless and wild and, you know, have drug addiction and alcohols them in my family. So I think I just like inherited that. And just I think because I've always been also a go-getter and ambitious, I could just see in my early 20s like, oh, I can't drink like my friends. Like my friends are able to like have a glass of wine and stop. And when I had one, I would want more and more

and then I would want drugs. And I just could see it progressing. And suddenly I like was caring more about getting high than I was caring about, you know, booking my next job or or my friends or my family. And I could see it taking the priority. And then so for me, my bottom was more internal. I was like, I'm never going to be who I want to be if I don't stop and straighten my life out. And so I said, you know, I just like walked into a recovery room and admitted that I had a problem and thank God I was able to stay sober. I'll have 15 years on October 29th this year. No way. Congratulations. 15 years. And it's why I have everything I do. And that's 15 years sober from what exactly? Everything. Yeah. No drugs or alcohol. So you don't you don't even

drink like I drink wheat grass. Wheat grass? Wheat grass. We know she's from L.A. Yeah. Yeah. We don't even know what that is over here. You're vegan too, right? Yeah. Vegan, wheatgrass. You're a completely different person than you were 15 years ago. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

Just as extreme, but in another way. Now I'm extreme the other way. But I don't hate it. I'm like addicted to hot yoga now and, you know. You look hot. Protein smoothies. Thank you. Thank you.

Stop. I'm so curious. As people that haven't experienced addiction, what are misconceptions about? What do people get wrong about, like, struggling with addiction? Well, I believe it's a disease, you know, and so, you know, a lot of people who are in their addiction, they're sort of judged. I think there's a lot of stigma around drug addicts, right? We just kind of look down at them and, and I get it, you know, you're kind of a nightmare when you're on drugs. I certainly was.

But they're sick, you know, so it's viewing people as sick rather than like bad or wrong, I think. So I think that's a misconception, too. It's like they think it's a choice to be an alcoholic or an addict. And yeah, sure, picking up that first thing is a choice technically. But after you do pick up that mind-altering substance, like we're bodily and mentally different from others. So most people can do it normally.

And if you're an addict, you just can't. Once you take that mind-altering substance, it releases the phenomenon of craving. and you can't stop and you end up in Tijuana with an obnoxious guy, you know, that you don't even like. He was so annoying. We had nothing in common. It was terrible. What was your breaking point to realize that you needed to get help that you needed to walk into that meeting? Was it an AA meeting, you said? Well, actually, when I went to Tijuana with the Irish guy, I had a boyfriend at the time. And I wanted to break up with that boyfriend and I didn't know how. And also, by the way, I was like 19 and my boyfriend was like 37. Ew. That's kind of gross, right? Looking back, I'm like, what daddy issues, whatever. But so I didn't know how to end it. He wanted to get married and like have kids and I'm like maybe 19 or 20. I was very young and I didn't know how to get out of it. And so I was like, let me just do the worst thing possible. So he kicks me out and breaks up with me, which is crazy. But I wasn't thinking. When I look back at that girl, I'm like, who is she? I would never, you know? I really feel like that. that was a whole different person. I don't know if you guys identify with that, looking at yourself as a teenager, if you're like,

ooh, I would never do that now or maybe, maybe not. I don't know if that's a common experience or not. We definitely are completely different people than who we were 10 years ago. You know? Yeah.

So he, sure enough, kicks me out, right, when I get back. He's like, you're done. You know,

you just went to Mexico, like, bye with some guy. And you're like nuts. Yeah. Oh, no. Success.

It works. It worked. So he kicked me out and I flew back to Downers Grove, Illinois, where I'm from. And I remember meeting my godmother who's like such a character. She would wear these big, you know, mink fur coats and all this hair, big hair spray and like way too much Botox and just like chain smoked cigarettes. But she was the only sober one in my family. And we meet at this little Mexican restaurant on Ogden Avenue. Every year I'd meet her. She was like my second mom. And so we'd meet at this restaurant when I get home and she looks at me. She goes, you look like, Laura. She goes, your hair looks like a rat's nest. She goes, you're one of us. I can tell. You're an alcoholic. You need to get sober. You're going to die. And I was like, okay, can we just order the guac? But that was kind of my bottom, you know? I could not go out in the world with bad hair, you know. Truly. That was it. I was like rats nest. Oh my God. I need help. But yeah, but what she said stuck, you know, and she was sober at that point, like 20 years,

and she talked to me about alcoholism and how she got sober. And so when I went back to L.A., I was staying on my sister's couch, and I would just walk to these recovery meetings, these 12-step meetings, and I would just listen. And at the beginning, I would go in and out. I would go in, I'd get a few weeks sober, and then I'd be like, I could have a glass. a wine and I couldn't you know I remember I walked into a meeting one day and there was a greeter and she said hi like how are you and I said oh I just relapse but you know I'm back and she goes you know Laura I just buried a bubbly blonde 22 year old because she OD'd in the bathtub

you're not too young you're not invincible this disease will take you out and it will kill you and I was like good morning to you too yeah wow but I was so scared of that that I asked her to sponsor me and take me through the steps and she did and I did it like my life depended on it because it did and from there I've never picked up or drank again and I you know you're not supposed to say you never will but I don't believe I ever will especially now that I'm a mother you know were you ever suicidal at that point because I can't imagine going from like having all these desires for alcohol or cocaine or whatever it is and trying to quit must be really really, really hard. So was there any, like, any, you know, depression mixed in there as well?

Yeah, definitely, because you're drinking and using to numb. So I found, like, when I was in my disease, I was crippled by, like, a thousand forms of fear. I was just constantly scared that I wasn't going to get what I wanted or I was going to lose what I had. And I was scared to even make art, you know? At the time, I was a barely working comedy actress. So I was, like, doing sitcoms and commercials, but, you know, my life was 90% auditions, 95% rejection, you know, because you're just like going in there multiple times a week, you know, with 12 pages of sides and scripts, you know, auditioning. And then they're just like, thanks for coming in. And you're just like, but I just got two words out. And they're like, thanks for coming in.

You know, and it's like, that's your life. But I was so nervous to make my own stuff. What I really wanted to do was like direct and ride and do characters and tell my own stories. And I was so scared to put myself out there. Because if I was in a bad sitcom, it's not my fault. It's not my sitcom. Yeah. I'm not why it got canceled. So it was very low pressure for me to be in other people's stuff.

Yeah. But I think I drank and used too because I, the fear, you know. So then you take that away, the numb. And then now I'm left with all these feelings. I can feel things. I could feel everything. Fear, anger. you know, they say in the program that I got sober in that resentment is the number one offender.

It's the first thing that will take you out. And resentment is what, re-feeling. It's thinking of something that made you angry and re-feeling and it's not letting go, not forgiving. And they say resentment is the number one offender. It's the first thing that will lead you back to the drink or the drug. So it becomes imperative when you make the decision to stay sober, to get sober, for me to be able to be able to to forgive everything and everyone. I have to. I can't hold on to that anger because it's too risky. If you hold on to the anger, you're likely to need to numb, right? So this is like AA 101, not holding on to resentment, not holding on to anger. And same with fear. Can you give us a like a short elevator pitch crash course into the core things you learn in AA? So yeah. So people say that, you know,

A lot of people are scared off because they think it's religious. Okay. I grew up in an atheist. I was the only atheist house on the block. My dad was a staunch atheist. He's actually not anymore. He's now like agnostic. Like I, he doesn't know.

But so when I went into the rooms and I was hearing a lot of prayer and God and you turn your life and your will over to God, that freaked me out at the beginning. Now I do believe in a higher power. And I pray and meditate and all of that. But so A.A. I would say it's a spiritual program and it's a design for living. And it's not just A.A. There's a program for like everyone. There's, you know, shopping anonymous. There's sex and love anonymous. There's gambling. There's Al-Anon, which is if you have a friend or a family member who suffers from addiction, that affects you. You know, and pretty much every. knows someone who's got it and it's hard. So there's a there's a 12-step program for them. But essentially it's a design for living and I would say that it teaches you how to live and function without, you know, in my case, drinking or using. So that involves a lot of different principles like surrendering acceptance. They say acceptance is the answer to all of our problems

when we're distraught, when we're anxious, when we're depressed, it's because we're not accepting our life exactly as it is at this moment right now. So it's not that we're like dormats and we just have to stay in an abusive thing or whatever, but just like finding a way to radically accept, okay, this is my life right now. And then a big one is like the serenity prayer. I don't know if you're familiar with that one, but grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. That's probably like my favorite prayer. And I feel like it's just everything. Whenever I find

myself, you know, in dis-ease, I'm like, oh, you know, am I accepting the things I can't change, right? Or do I have the courage to change the things that I can? And then the wisdom to know the difference. That's so good. Right? It's so simple, but like, oh, so profound, I think. You talking about all this reminds me of that scene in Finding Nemo where the sharks are like, fish are friends, not food. And then they're having like their AA meeting, but it's about not eating fish, you know? Yes, yes. I think that's so, I think that's so, the writing there is so genius. It's so good. Yeah, it is really good. That is so funny. And we do all, you hold hands at the end of the meeting and you Say the serenity prayer, but I got to say like, you know, my third book is all about the last four years

of my life, which, which by the way, and I'll say this too since we're talking about sobriety, I believe sobriety is what brought my then husband and I together. Like we met at a party in 2011 and he was holding a bottle of water and I was like, ooh, that's so hot that he's holding water, right? That's what you're looking for at the time. Girl, yes. So I went up to him and I was like, hey, like, where did you get your water? that was a good love

Is that G? And I just like kept talking about water because I was nervous and I was like I just like love water so much like it's really important to stay hydrated Thank you to Shopify for sponsoring this portion of today's episode If you've been sitting on a business idea Shopify makes it easy to make it happen

Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one And this right here is actually a big part of how Abby was able to launch her own mascara brand because of Shopify. That's what we used for the website. Launching that product was so overwhelming. I'm sure any new business owner knows this feeling.

But having the support of Shopify and all of the systems they already have in place and all the features they have, I can genuinely say through experience now, they make it very user-friendly for you. And make that daunting task feel a lot less overwhelming. From the moment your first customer is ready to pay, Shopify checkout helps more of them. them finish their purchase. And when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done. Because Shopify handles the setup and checkout, you have more time to

focus on growing your business and the tools to do it. Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide from household names like Mattel and Jimshark to small businesses just getting started. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash unplanned. That's Shopify.com slash unplanned to start your free trial. Your new book is about the past four years of your life. Yeah. Which I've got to be honest with you. I like, kudos to you for like still going and being here on this podcast and writing a book. I mean, from the outside looking in, it looks like it's been a lot to say the least. Yeah. I mean, we were married, you know, just over 10 years. Isn't that crazy?

10 years. That's a long time. Yeah. And it kind of all fell apart in 2021, late 2021. When you found out he was cheating on you, was that the first time that you'd ever been cheated on? No. He had an affair in 2014, a few years into our marriage. And you didn't know about it? I found out. Oh, you found out then.

I found out then. But you forgave him. And I forgave him. But the story's crazy. You have to tell the story. You want me to tell you? You want that good tea? Well, I just think it's a piping hot tea.

I don't mean it's a good story because it's a terrible story. Oh, gosh. Oh, I've processed it. I'm like able to talk about it, you know. I can also recognize a good story. It feels like it's made for a movie. My life is a movie. Do you think that helps you process it too?

Totally. Like you're like, I can just view this as entertainment. Is that why you're a comedian is because you use the comedy to kind of get through the dark stuff? Perhaps, you know, perhaps that's part of it. You know, and I'm able to just recognize it. Of course, at the moment, it's not funny, but they say tragedy plus time equals comedy. And I buy it, you know. So I'm able to look back and laugh.

Thank God. You know, I think I have a program. My program helps me process things too. So I, you know, like I still go after all these years to my weekly women's meeting. And you just deeply share and deeply listen and you get vulnerable and you tell the truth. And they say you're as sick as your secrets. So it's important for me to share my story, you know? But so, yeah, so in 2014, we had been married a few years.

And he just started acting strange, you know? We were both obviously, like I said in recovery. But he just was acting off. And, you know, he's British. He would, like, come in at one in the morning, like, all bloody. He's like, I fell off my bicycle. And I'm like, why were you on your bike at one in the morning? Like, just, like, odd behavior.

And then like I would hear pill bottles rattling and when I would confront him about it, it was like, oh, they're prescribed. Like I have trouble sleeping. I'm anxious. My back hurts. It was like he always had a reason for the pills. I swear like doctors are the number one drug dealers now. Really? Absolutely.

Yeah. It's not like street drugs anymore. I feel like people are just getting it from, they go doctor shopping and they just get. Oh gosh. You can get synthetic heroin. You can get speed. You can get all. the things. And then when

you can't doctor shop anymore, it's become so dangerous because now everything has fentanyl in it and so people are just dropping dead. It's really devastating. I know this was supposed to be a funny podcast and I'm ruining it. No, it's okay. This is your story and you got to share it. No, yeah. So 2014 starts acting

strange and one day it's like 10 a.m. pre-children. So I'm sleeping, honey. Okay. I'm sleeping in. We have like a two-bedroom apartment in Santa Monica at the time. He's a film composer. So he's scoring this big movie in the second bedroom. He's got like drums booming, really loud music playing in his room. And I hear his phone alarm go off in the kitchen. So I yell out and I'm like,

Stephen, you know, your phone alarm, turn it off. And he doesn't hear me because he's in the studio with the loud music. I swear it's just getting louder. Nothing lights me up like Matt's alarm going off and it won't stop. You know what I mean? Like is it every man that just sets alarms on? on their phone. What the hell is? I do it every day. Okay, Matt. So red flag. Red flag. Well, I thought it was a sign. So, well, now looking back, I think it was a sign. Seriously, because it just kept, the beeps kept getting louder and eventually. You can't ignore it. Dude, yes. And I just, and I tried to get him to get his phone and he wouldn't. So I ripped the covers off. I storm into the kitchen. I grab his phone and then up pops a text from a contact name that's called absolutely no way.

Like that's the name on the phone is absolutely no way. And I thought that was strange. Why would he make that the contact? I don't know. I don't know. It was weird. So I looked, I go absolutely no way. Who's that?

And I looked and it became very clear, very quickly that he was in a full-blown affair. Okay, very explicit stuff in there. Abby told me about this. There was like mention of doing stuff on. the kitchen table and all sorts of craziness. We don't know who's kitchen table to this day. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

I definitely Lysoled my kitchen table that day, though. I mean, actually one clarifying question, but I don't want to know, but I do need to. Yeah. No, I was thinking for you to ask, you like, which table? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, which table? So yeah, so then she says, absolutely no way says, are we meeting today? And I said from his phone as him, I said, yeah, what's the address again? Now, I said this not to go attack this woman because it's not her fault.

It's his. It's not, I don't conduct. You know, it's like at the time I didn't know that she knew that he was married, but he's who I should have been focusing the anger on. But I just wanted the truth. And I knew he wasn't going to tell me the truth. Totally. He was going to deny it.

I wanted answers. So I thought, I want to go talk to this girl and get answers. Yeah. And that's why I did that. So I said, what's the address? She texted me the address. And then I just go into his studio. And I was like, hey, babe, like, I'm going to go get some coffee.

I'll be back. And he's like, all right, you know. I love your accent. Okay. Bye. All right. Sally ho. All right.

Enjoy. Yeah, I will. So I like hop in the car, speed to this address in Malibu. It's a recovery meeting. It's, I see the building. It's this massive recovery meeting with like 200 people in it. I walk in and I'm like looking around for like a woman who looks guilty, you know. Like how I don't know how I'm going to find this person.

Someone told me why didn't you just call the number like maybe the phone would have wrong. But whatever, it was 200 people. I was spinning. Everything was in slow motion. And I'm like, what am I doing here? I eventually went home and confronted him. Yeah. And, you know, and we separated.

We separated for three months. He admitted that he was using again. And, you know, but he went and he got sober. He, you know, went to rehab, detox, like, flew to Chicago to make amends to my parents, which was also very awkward because my dad's weird about anything emotional. He's like, I'm so sorry. I will never hurt your daughter. For the rest of my life, I love her dearly, and I'm so, so sorry.

And my dad's like, have you ever used an iPad at the gym? It's really nice to just, you know, listen to some Zeppelin while you're lifting. Did he actually say that? Yeah. Yeah, that's what Stephen told me. Because I poured my heart out to them, and then your father was speaking of iPods at the gym. And how he likes to listen to Led Zeppelin while he's on the elliptical. She didn't know what to say.

Yeah. Didn't know how to handle it. It's very Midwest, right? We don't really talk about what's going on. Yeah. I don't know. At least my family. Oh, no.

Same. Say same. Yeah. So, yeah. And then I eventually forgave him, you know, after he got help, I could see the change. And again, because I'm a recovering addict too, I'm not perfect either. I've made mistakes. So I empathize.

And I'm like, we're human, you know, we're flawed. And he messed up and he's making amends and he's making it right. And I love him and he's my best friend. So eventually after maybe five months, I took him back. And we had many good years after that. Yeah. So I guess this is hard to maybe reflect on in hindsight. But like, do you still think that you made the right decision in that time to forgive him

and have them come back. It's funny, maybe I should say no, but I'm going to say yes, because we had such a wonderful run. Like, oh my God. I mean, we truly were best friends. We spent half the day just cracking up, laughing our asses off. He's a musician. I'm a comedian.

We would make this awesome comedy and music together. We were so creative. We just had. the most fun life for just many years when we were sober and working a program and keeping our side of the street clean and being rigorously honest and you know forgiving and confronting and walking through our fears and when we were working that and just like living a good life it was incredible so incredible that we you know whatever achieved all our goals we bought our dream house we expanded the family let's have a baby that's how like good life was and we you know

And he was the one that encouraged you to start posting on social media, right? Yeah. Which led to this empire of over 20 million followers. Obviously, that was lucrative. You no longer had to live at your sister's house on the couch. You were able to buy a house. Two. So two houses, yes, two houses.

But you're not a fan of two mortgages, right? Not a fan. Well, you know, it was fine when we were together. But I think when we separated and I was still like, you know, you know, paying for these two mortgages and I lost my business partner, that that's when everything kind of went crazy. So yeah, so, you know, like I said, many good years. I don't, I don't know that I would have done it differently. And then it's also hard to say because we had two babies. Right. And then it's like, you know, I just couldn't imagine my life without my son

and my daughter. I think there's such a blessing. What made the second time that he cheated different from the first? Was that just kind of one of those things where it's like, okay, this is the second strike. We've got to officially divorce at this point because, I mean, who, if he says he's going to stop cheating, you just, you just can't trust it at that point? Yeah, I think that I actually, again, I'll be honest, I didn't divorce him because of that second time. That actually wasn't why I was willing to work through that too. I think it too it was less extreme it was it was um I'm sorry because you said I'm just imagining

a family and a van listening to this episode and I'm just like do I say this next part or no but yeah no I'm sure anybody listening with their kid in the car has turned off the podcast by now so we're probably good yeah I think so I think the kids have gone to bed they're doing laundry yeah so okay so many you know many years went by like our career was amazing best friends like yeah you know love of my life and then we have two amazing kids and then after the birth of my daughter I was experiencing some postpartum depression and I think at the time part of that depression came from the fact that him and I felt so disconnected it was like we were a thousand miles away but in the same room like we were just so

and again it was just strange I didn't understand my god godmother who I told you about with the fur and too much Botox, she was dying around that time. So I flew back to go say goodbye to her and like I got, you know, guacamole from our favorite Mexican restaurant. I fed it to her and I played her favorite music and I made sure my hair was blown out and looked really good. So she knew that I was healthy and good. Yeah. And I thanked her for, you know, saving my life because she did. And then when I flew back, from saying goodbye to her, I remember he picked me up in the car and there was no like hug. There was no, I love you.

It was just very cold. And two, we worked together. So we had almost become like business partners. Yeah. The marriage part was really not good. And I remember sitting in the car and I was still kind of distraught and he started talking about like the algorithm or like, you know, a video not performing the way that we wanted it to, right? Because we were sort of maybe addicted to our work a bit. And I just remember that of

like wanting my husband at that time, but getting like my business partner. And it was just odd. It was just an odd cold moment that was striking for me. And then just a few days later, I caught him in in another lie. And it was kind of a small lie. I opened with us in my book, this little deceit. Now, this. This lie was small enough to where I, again, I'm flawed to you. I had actually done a similar thing to what I wrote about in this book. So like... Yeah.

The opening line of your book is fire, by the way. I don't know how much time you spent on the first sentence, but I read that first sentence and I'm like... Don't say it. So then people have to go check it out. You got to pick up the book to read the first sentence. Your book is good. The writing's amazing.

Do you collaborate with other writers to write something like that? You do? I have a co-writer on every book. Amazing. And not only a co-writer, an editor. you know and then my mom like i'll send her an essay then your mom i'll send her an essay and be like what do you think of this you know i i really do think it takes a whole team you know for for me i think if i were to write a book on my own with my ADHD it would take me six years to finish so then how long does it

take you to write your book? A co-writer is amazing because you write something and send it off and then she helps me punch it up and make it better helps me structure the stories goes oh what if we put this story over here and this story over here. So you're collaborating. It's incredible. That's really cool. And then sometimes too I'll like voice memo stories and send them to her and she'll transcribe them and that's amazing. So it just I recommend it. You know if you're a busy person to get someone to help you. I mean shout out to Ginger. She like killed it on this. You know, but how did you find this person to collaborate with you? My, um, my manager is really good at finding me writers. And so, yeah, so it made it, it made it doable for me. Yeah.

This second time that things kind of got rough in your marriage, it, it, I noticed a similar thing, like obviously it was like relapsing and then infidelity. Is there some connection there between the two? Totally. Yes. So I think they're all linked. And again, when I discovered this deceit, I didn't know at the time, but he was back using again. And I always say like sobriety brought us together, and addiction tore us apart. It tore everything apart. It, you know, I don't want to see it destroyed our family because, you know,

we're okay. But it ended it all. I mean, it, you saw. And it was all very public too. It was just such a mess. They say that, you know, addiction's like doing pushups. Even if you're sober, it's getting stronger. and every relapse is worse than the last.

And I will say that I did not recognize who this man was, this last relapse. It was so terrifying. So the initial lie that I caught in, I was willing to work through it, but then the behavior became so scary and so unsafe that I made the decision to separate, to protect myself and the kids from this person

who I was struggling to worry. recognize, you know? I'm like, who is this person that I've known for 11 years? Who are you? Where did you go? You know, and it really is a cunning, baffling, powerful disease. And to answer your question, I think they're very linked sex addiction, you know, drug addiction, love addiction, all of it. You're trying to fill the hole in the soul with external stuff. We do it all the time, right? I mean, everyone has something maybe that they're a little dependent on. And for some, it makes their life fully unmanageable and just destroys everything. How did you fill that hole in your soul being an addict in the past and now being 15 years sober?

What's that thing, that missing link that you found in your life? I think happiness and contentment as an inside job. There was a period where I was probably addicted to the success and the money and the fame and just making people laugh. Even that was addicting. It was so fun to like have a concept, write it up, edit it, post it, and then get 10 million views and all these people laughing and you're just like, yeah, this is amazing. That's a drug in itself, right? Yeah.

And it's like you could argue that that's an okay one. It's an okay drug like making people laugh. But then say a video flops. It doesn't do well. People go, you suck, right? So then am I going to listen to that too? Yeah. And then, right, the depression seeps in.

and then I want to numb. So it's like, I don't listen to any of the crazy good or the crazy bad. You just, my job is to stay humble. To stay, I'm not better than, I'm not less than.

You know, before I got sober, I was either grandiose or comatose. I was either the hottest shit ever, or I should be me myself. There was no, like, just right-sized,

worker among worker. Yeah. You know, and then I learned to simple things like, when I wake up in the morning, I try and ask when I do my prayer and meditation, what can I give today rather than what can I get? Like even on the plane right here, I'm like, how can I be of service to them and hopefully maybe help someone through sharing my story? It's not about what I can get. It's

about what I can give. And ironically, when I do that, I end up getting. I get fulfillment. I feel full and whole because my life has purpose. So I, I ask, like, how can I be a better mom, a better friend, a better artist? Thank you to Zoc Doc for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. As many of you know, I use Zoc Doc. I actually used the platform to get officially diagnosed with ADHD. I thought I had it for a long time. Never actually went to the doctor about it.

And when I finally did, they were able to confirm, yes, you have that. Super thankful to Zoc Doc for allowing me to have that appointment on my phone, not having to drive to a doctor's office and wait in the lobby. and then drive home again, it was just able to happen out our house, which is so convenient. Zococ just makes that super, super seamless. And they let you search and compare local in-network doctors. You heard me right. In-network, they will find ones that accept your insurance, which is also really huge.

And they have more than 150,000 providers within 200-plus specialties across all 50 states. Appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours, and you can even score same-day appointments. Your health matters, and taking care of yourself shouldn't be compromised. Find and book the right doctor with ZockDoc. Head to Zocdoch.com slash unplanned to get started and check that appointment off your to do list. That's ZOCDOC.com slash unplanned. I've learned that gratitude is the antedictal.

Also just like snaps to all that. That was so good. So seriously, that was so, so good. Something that I've learned is gratitude is the antidote to automatic negative thoughts. And I heard you speaking about this and that's where you. started mentioning giving and it kind of, yeah, just opened up so much in my brain. I'm like, oh my gosh, of course. I mean, I think it's great to have gratitude.

But then in some ways, sometimes gratitude can be more self-serving. And I really like everything you said about giving. What is something that you do like today? But gratitude love that to. To just like get grateful, even just like a roof over our head. Like how lucky are we that we have. running water and, you know. Oh, 100%. Yeah. When, when you give, what, like, what is, what is the method in which you like to give? Is it through like a certain action, like volunteering at a

homeless shelter? Is it through giving to a certain charity? What, what is that to you giving? Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I think it's a mindset. You know, of course, there's like philanthropic causes that I'm interested in, but it's also just like how can you give to, it's a service mindset. So, right? So it's like, how can I give to my kids today? Well, I can be present with them. Ask them questions to get to know them more, like give them a fun experience or just make them feel loved and safe and like an extra long hug or whatever.

Or, you know, calling a friend and asking, how are you? not oh, and then this happened and then me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. You know, not that, but just like, how are you? Yeah. That, to me, is giving. It doesn't have to be this grand act. I remember early in sobriety when I started shifting my mind because the untreated addict is selfish and self-seeking to the extreme.

It's just like, what can I get? How can I get happier? How could I, you know, feel better? And it's not, and then when I, so when I learned to shift my perception and to serve more in just all areas of my life, it's also. helping other addicts. So I'll go into meetings and if someone raises their hand with three days, I give them my number. I say, hey, call me if you need help and I'm there to help you and teach you how I did it.

It's like one person helping another. That's cool. So, um, let's- Divorce. Should we talk about maybe that could be something? That was a different direction. That could be something. That could be something. It could be something we could like talk about me.

I don't know. So you did a whole podcast series with your ex-husband after the divorce, correct, and shared all that to the world. Do you regret doing that? No, because I do it for the plot, honey. It's a great story. No, great story. No, yeah, maybe.

Maybe that wasn't the best. Maybe that wasn't one of my greatest ideas. At the time, we weren't actually divorced. We were separated. Okay. Separated. Yeah, the divorce took a long time. I've been divorced now for like two months.

It's so, yeah. You only have been divorced for two months. Isn't that crazy? Okay. But we were, you know, we've been separated since the kids were one and three, which I'm also grateful for too, because they're just so young. They just know that we're in different houses and they're just, it's so normal for them. Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah. So at the time, I was sort of delusional and I just thought we could be like Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin and do conscious uncoversive. Like remember when they got divorced? You guys remember that? I don't. I didn't know that she got divorced, to be honest.

Yeah. I don't know too much about it, but I just remember like when they got divorced. The guy from Coldplay and Gwyneth Petro got divorced and they were like, we're doing this thing called conscious uncoupling. Like they didn't call divorce, but conscious uncoupling where they like divorce but they're still best friends and it's all love. And I was like, that's what I'm going to do. Didn't work. Now, I just thought this is my. best friend, like, even though he is unsafe, like I empathize because I'm also an addict,

so we're separating. But then he would tell me, okay, I didn't know he was using at the beginning. So there was that. I just thought he was unhinged. But then he would tell me, oh, I'm getting help. And then he told me he was using. Okay. So now I know.

Okay. But now he's going to go get help. So in my head, I'm like, okay, he's getting help. You know, I'm never going to take him back. but we can still be friends for our kids. Like I want to be able to go to the park with him and talk about our kids and have family time. Like I wanted that. I don't want that contentious, horrible, hate each other, right?

Resetment, horrible stuff. No way. I don't want that. You know, like I'm able to forgive you from a distance and like let's be friends. So we had such an amazing collaborative thing. together for so many years. We would make comedy sketches together forever and, you know, all that. And so I thought, let's make like co-parenting sketches. That's so funny. 56% of people get divorced. It's really funny. We'll do a drop-off scene where you drop off the kids and my daughter comes out and she

has one shoe and I'm like, where's her shoe? And he's like, I don't know. You know, whatever. And it's just a funny back and forth of like, you know, this divorced couple who's like raising kids together. She seemed like a really good idea at the time. And it worked for a little bit. But then ultimately, he would just lose his mind again. Like he would just go crazy. And I, so it would go, go well for a bed or we would do like a podcast and we'd talk about the separation and things like that.

And then, I don't know. I think I was enabling. I think I was codependent, very codependent. You know, I was so attached to him. Like, aren't you? Don't you feel attached to each other? You've been married for over 10 years. You know what I mean?

So now I'm like struggling to have a life without them. So even though we're not together, well, we could still do a podcast together, right? But it could be different now. We could be co-parents that we could talk about divorcing in a healthy way. And we can have on parenting experts. And, you know, and I was just so desperate to like maintain some sort of relationship. Yeah. And like, and maybe there was probably a bit of I'm so wired in my head to,

just I know what's going to hit. I know what's going to do well. And I knew there's no one else really doing this. This will do really well. What was that like to hear outside opinions and outside thoughts on the divorce in real time or on the separation in real time? Because I can only imagine that would be a huge weight to then have all these other opinions on what you're going through. Yeah. And it probably, this is just my interpretation, but it probably could be, drive a person crazy to hear all these different, you know, so many different takes on your separation. Yeah, absolutely. I think initially, because this was before we would do the co-parenting podcast, when I asked him for a separation, this was all very private, very private,

right? We would not announce anything. I was traumatized from the events that occurred. It was very scary time. Yeah. I ask him for the separation. I wake up in the morning to all these phone calls and texts. Are you okay? Is everything okay? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm like, what's going on? Like I haven't even told my mom. Yeah. Yeah. This is so new. I look on YouTube and there's a video from him titled, I separated from my wife. And it was just announced to the world. So now I'm like still processing this really traumatic thing and the whole world knows. And then he does another video that's like, I tried to end it all. So now I'm getting all this hate. He tried to end it and you separated, you monster, you witch. And they don't know what really happened. They have no idea

what the kids and I went through. They don't know because I'm not, I hadn't posted it. And now it's all out there. And when I confronted him, and I said, what are you doing? Why are you posting this? Like, he goes, well, that's what we do. We post our lives to the internet. Like, that's what we do. And then I'm like, oh, my God, have I created this monster? Because, like, when we met, he was just this introverted composer making his music. And then I was making my comedy. And then I'm like, oh, come into my video. Oh, you know, let's make videos together. And then, then, you know, let's make videos together. I think it was just another addiction and he would stop at nothing to get that viral video, to get that monetization, to get that validation, to fill the hole in the soul with the external

stuff. I just think it was another cross addiction, as they say. From when he posted that video. Because he wasn't thinking about the kids or I when he did that. Yeah. How much time elapsed between that video getting posted by him, him announcing your separation without your permission to then him, you know, riling up a mob of people to call CPS on you. So that happened, the CPS happened probably like two years later.

Two years later. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. I, after that another horrific thing happened, he broke into my house and threatened me. and I called the police and I was going to get a restraining order. I was on my way to the courthouse. And he actually spent the night in jail. And I went in the morning to go get the restraining order.

And as I was going into park in the parking structure at the courthouse, I roll down my window and the ticket lady, I look at the ticket lady. I'm like, hi, which building is the one where I get a restraining order? And she's like, and she's like points to the left. And right as she points to the left, I hear bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. I turn and there he is. Oh, my gosh. He had tracked me from our car because we had Teslas and they track your location so you can see, you know, where I was.

So he got out of jail and Ubered to the courthouse to find me. Yeah. That is like something out of a horror film. Isn't it? Yeah. I'll probably end up making one. You should. Yeah, I probably will because you might as well turn your pain into art. Why not? Why not? Might as well monetize my trauma, but also like make a cool movie that can help people. Isn't that crazy? It's straight out of a movie. This whole book is like a page Turner thriller. It's so insane. But yeah, so he bangs down and I'm terrified now. I'm like and he's crying. and begging and pleading and saying, I'll get help and I'll never do this again. And I love you and we're soulmates and I'll do anything and just like let me, I promise you like, you know, we're meant to be together. And, you know, I wasn't in my right mind and I was just jealous because he had read my journal and read about some crushes that I had on people. We were separated at the time. But like I wrote about my little crushes like a little school girl because I've been married for 10 years and then now I'm not. And so I'm like, you know, what? whatever, writing in my journal about it. Meanwhile, he's banging half of the greater Los Angeles area. I hadn't even held anyone else's hand at the time, but I was writing about my little crushes. And he got jealous and he, yeah, did that. And so ultimately, I backed out of getting the restraining

order at the end. I didn't get it. It took me another three years to get one. He begged to me, said he would get help, and he did for a bit. He did. It got better for a bit. Again, I wasn't going to take him back, but we were friends again. He was in therapy every day. He was going to meetings. He was sober. So he said, you know, he was coming and doing bedtimes with the kids eventually. And we were cordial. It's so cordial that we were like, oh, let's do a co-parenting thing. And I'm praying to God that if we're on camera and we have a specialist that's helping us how to co-parent in a healthy way, maybe he'll take it in. Maybe it'll make sense. I almost thought that publicizing it would like accountability yeah uh i really did it was crazy and codependent and so again it like worked and then

it didn't you know i got a boyfriend and that really made him lose his mind how so what did he do when he found out that you were dating again just that you know threats um uh just harassment uh posting really horrific things about me online saying I was a terrible mom like just the worst things you could think of really he would say about me the worst things you could think of about my family too uh just unforgivable stuff that ultimately I have forgived but um yeah really bad and it got so bad that I just one day you know the calls and the harassment started at like 435 in the morning and I remember I was up with my son he had woken up early that morning and he was threatening to take

the kids and all sorts of really crazy unhinged stuff he was saying to me and I just had it and I thought nope we're done and then he was like I'm coming over now to take the kids and I just said I called the police you can come but you're going to get arrested and then I went to the courthouse and I filed a restraining order myself and I got one and that was one of the hardest things I had to do um because you know if they passed a permanent restraining order he wouldn't have seen me or the kids for five years you know And that restraining order is still in effect today? No. It's not anymore.

The twists and the turns. There's a lot of twists and turns. Yes. So six months, the restraining order was for six months. And that is when DCFS was called. During that time. CPS was called during that time. Yeah.

Apparently, because this whole mess was public, okay. They were able to see the DCFS was. the DCFS was able to see the abuse. They were able to see what was going on because he was posting it. Yeah. And then he started like a cult

that referred to me as Satan. How does one start a cult? I mean, it was really just his Patreon, but like it was very cultish by in nature. Yeah. Bizar. Bizarre.

I mean, I don't even know like all of what was going on on his side of things because again I was just focused on like keeping the kids and I safe and you know like getting that restraining order and when I got that was the first time I actually started

to heal because I have this like court ordered no contact so there was no like oh we can make it work oh yeah we can be friends oh you know just trying so desperately to I couldn't do that anymore so I started healing but then

he got worse from that restraining order. The threats online got worse. The cult, the DCFS got involved. Yeah. And then the FBI got involved. Why did the FBI get involved? You're going to have to read the book on that one. It got insane.

Like, it just, like, you think he would hit bottom, and then you're like, oh, bottom has a basement. Like, it just, it was, I think he was just being so self-destructive because he had lost everything. but he couldn't stop. And my part was enabling for those two, three years. I didn't knowingly enable, but I was. I, by giving him another chance.

Like I think a lot of friends and family members of addicts, we want to help. So it's like, oh yeah, I'll help you build your new business. And yeah, we can do a podcast together. And oh, can you do the music for this thing? Like just trying to make sure he's okay. And like, oh, yeah, we can still all hang out as a family. And I'm just enabling his addiction.

And then I'm stopped preventing him from hitting bottom. And when I cut that off and got the restraining order and had no contact and got a lawyer and was like, I'm done. And that was another thing. I tried mediation. He begged me, let's just mediate and do it peacefully. But then he wouldn't show up for any of the meetings. And I'm paying thousands of dollars for him to not show up because he had no intention of signing these divorce papers. Have you calculated how much you spent in court?

I don't even want. Well, not court. It was mediation. Mediation is out of court. You're supposed to, the lawyer represents the two of you. But when one person isn't showing up, it's impossible. So I hit bottom. I got the restinator. I got a lawyer. And we eventually ended up, you know, settling. We had a court date for the restraining order. And he was really, strange like that time in court because I hadn't seen him for months and it was really strange. I remember sitting there in the courtroom hallway next to my lawyer and he comes in and he's like holding this briefcase and he's in this suit but he looks like really skinny and frail and like just like a shell of himself. You know like no I wasn't scared even though I had a restraining order against him.

He just looked sick, you know, because he was. Yeah. And I saw him, like, fumbling with this briefcase and, like, a flood of memories came back because I remember that briefcase from when we first met. He used to, like, carry it around, you know? Like, for whatever reason, I was like, what is even in that briefcase? Like, you just have a wallet and a phone. Like, why do you have a briefcase? But he would just, like, had this little vintage briefcase and just this flood of memories came back. And then he looks at me and he's, like, fumbling with it. And he goes, I think my briefcase is broken. And I was like, yeah, I remember that briefcase.

I said, you used to carry it around to like the farmer's market and I would make fun of you. Yeah. And then we started like laughing for a minute. And then my lawyer just like smacks me. She's like, what are you doing? Like stop. Like you have a restraining order. Yeah.

You know? But like, I don't know. In that moment, like he wasn't my abuser. He was like the guy that I was accused me of not liking water at the party. And like the guy who believed in me and told me to. start making videos and the guy who I had two babies with. Like, he was that guy. He was, you know?

And, but we go in and, like, he breaks down to the judge right away. He's like, I'm an addict. I can't stop. And I was like, oh, cool, okay. So I don't really have to prove anything. Like, he just sort of admitted. Yeah. And, yeah.

And so then, you know, I think that. after that it continued the insanity it was just you know one thing after the next but my job was just to stay sober and not enable you know let him hit bottom detach you know and just put one foot in front of the other and like I think friends got me through it like just reaching out to people I was and it being so public how did that feel you asked me earlier, you know, it was weirdly cathartic because so many women have been here. Maybe not as extreme as mine. Mine's like pretty nutty, but some version of like domestic violence or post-separation abuse. Yeah. Infidelity, all of that. Like I just heard stories from thousands

of women and because mine was all out there happening in real time. I mean, I was having people making TikToks going, he fits the bill for a family annihilator, which is when you murder your entire family. And here's why. And like they would show me why. And I'm just like in bed like, oh, is that, is that right? You know, I know. It's not funny. What in the modern TikTok era? That's crazy. Right? And so I was just like, my algorithm was like full of like all these people with their commentary and their theories and then but also I felt I didn't feel alone yeah it almost felt like safer because I had all these people behind me knowing what was happening yeah watching the abuse happen in real time it was wild yeah wild you've said before that because I think the quote was like he

wasn't hitting you that it was hard to categorize this as abuse in your mind at what point did you recognize emotional abuse as for what it was. Yeah, that's a good question. I think that for me, it took something really dramatic happening for me to have the strength to walk away. Like, had something insane not happened, maybe I would have continued justifying it. Oh, it's just little things because that's the tricky thing with abusive relationships or dysfunctional ones or trauma bonds or whatever you want to call it is like they're not black and white it's not oftentimes it's not punching in the face it's just little subtle things but then there's all this good so you're like oh you forgive the bad because there's all this good so that was hard for me

so um it's hard to know like exactly the the moment i just knew that there was a lot of manipulation or like there were things that he would do like stonewalling. Have you heard of that? Where it's, you know, I would like confront him about something or we would just have a disagreement about something and then like he would ignore me for two days, things like that. That felt very painful. I didn't really know that that was like an abuse tactic. So there's things like that or just yeah, it's like covert abuse almost. You know. No, it's not, it's not even like screaming in your face. That's like very obvious, right?

It's more subtle than that. But yeah. What would someone need to do today to earn your trust romantically? Isn't that so funny? Well, it's funny because I've had one boyfriend since the separation and we actually broke up. We were together like for over two years. He's awesome.

So cool. But just we wanted different things. It's like he wanted to get married and have a baby and nothing sounds worse. So, you know, that is what it is. I love my life today. I feel very free, very just whole. You know, I think for many years I thought I needed a man to be complete. I needed someone.

I couldn't do it on my own. I remember when I first separated, I didn't even know how to turn on our hot tub. It was he did it. It was a lot of levers, a lot of things. But he did it. He controlled a lot of things. And then when he left, I was like, how am I going to do this? Well, I learned how to do it all, you know, maybe not perfectly.

But, and then, like, I have great friends, too, and great support group and family. I have so much love in my life that I don't feel the need to, like, I need to get married again. or I need to, I don't feel that it will probably happen. I don't, like, I'll just go to a cafe and I'll get asked out, you know, or something like that. Like, it's just, we live in an abundant world, so I'm not really worried about finding love again, but your question was, how will I trust? To trust somebody again. I know, right?

That's tricky. That's so tricky. I don't know. I don't know. And I feel so bad for my then boyfriend because he did nothing, and I had raging trust, trust issues. he would like look at he would like sit next to a girl at a cafe and I was like how dare you sit next to her you know like crazy or like convinced myself that he was lying to me when he wasn't he would be like do you want to just like look at my phone like I'm not lying to you you know but I

was traumatized and so I felt bad for him but he was very patient with me and just understood oh you have trust issues like we'll work through that you can whatever I can do to make you feel at ease, you know, which is really sweet. So I don't know, maybe time and therapy. Or I'll just become a lesbian. That always is an option, you know. Thank you to Miracle Made for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Do you ever wake up sweaty, freezing, or just uncomfortable?

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agree to disagree, if that's okay. Just to end on a little lighter of a note, I feel like we talked about a lot of really deep, dark stuff today. So first question, well, this kind of goes along with what we were talking about. This is from MMDJDB 123. Do you want to remarry? Right now, no. The thought of getting the government involved in my relationship is the most unappealing thing ever.

Now, a life partner down the road, maybe. But I got to say, I love not living with a man. I'm loving that. I've got some, you know, little flirtations here and there. I've got a vibrator. We're good. Next question. Macko's next question.

Okay. I don't know. Then we have, this is from Alan. How did you get so funny? All your videos are hilarious. You know, I have this theory. that people either like have a funny bone or they don't type thing, you know, like you're kind of born with it a little bit. Yeah. You know, I think sure my parents had some influence on me,

but then why aren't my sisters comedians? You know what I mean? So I, yeah, it's like, it's like you can either sing or you can't. Like yeah, yeah, you can go take singing lessons, but you're not going to be Beyonce. If you're tone deaf, you're tone deaf. Don't leave that so much. I took scene lessons for seven years and I, do you know what I mean? out like two notes. It's my speaking notes. That's it. Those are your two notes. That's my two notes. I've never got new ones. Right. So I feel similarly to comedy. I know a lot of people disagree with me. They're like, no, there's a. No, I believe that. Right. Right. Like they're like, oh, no, it's set a punchline. You can learn it in class. I'm like, okay, to an extent, but I think it's just in you. So I feel like it's in me.

And I saw that very young. I was like, oh, I would walk into a room and people would start laughing. I'm like, cool. I didn't even do anything. So I should just do this for a living. That's fun. I feel like then I won't even feel like I'm working. It's great. I was like I got to find a way to make a living doing this or I'm going to be homeless. I have no other skill set. I feel like I'm not like naturally like in person funny.

But I feel like if you give me enough time with editing, I can edit things to be funny. And one of my favorite things is like the rule of three. Like when you just keep with the callback where you just keep hitting that same thing over and over. And then the third time you mention it. the time you have to be right, I just, I love that so much. But Matt, you keep going. That's my problem. In real life, though, I will keep going.

So if we're vlogging and I, and I'm like not being funny at all, I'll just have to like stop after the third time because I've edited all the other parts out because it's not funny. I know literally and this is such a side story, but in college with our friend group, Matt would like, if he made a joke that people laughed at, he would do it. He would keep saying it. Like so many times. So then we internally.

Would he say it like at the same sitting or like he would take that joke? No, no, no. Same sitting within the hour. Okay, okay, okay. Multiple times. And so that internally we decided that every time we're just going to laugh and see how many times he will do it. You guys did that to me?

Right now. I've never told you this. You never told me. It was Morgan's idea. Oh, that's so funny. And so we just kept going. This man could just keep going. Your friend Abby's.

And you just egged his . That's so funny. That's hilarious. I had to come clean right now. That's slightly hurtful. It just felt like the time. It felt like the time. That's so funny.

I will say her friend Morgan though has laughed at me more than any other person. So I feel, I like, I like, now he's questioning everything. Now I'm like, did she just do that just to make me feel like I was funny? She probably was. That's hilarious. Oh, okay, wow. Next up, we have being a fellow mum of a neurodivergent child. I need all the tips for navigating school and life.

That was a hard turn there. Hard turn, yeah, hard turn. Well, I would just say, you know, try and get an advocate if you can. You said M-U-M. You said, Mom. So I'm assuming they're UK or Canada, and I don't know how the systems are there. But I would just say you just got to fight for services for your kid and get as much support and help as you possibly can, you know, don't try and do it all in your own, just like sobriety. It's the same thing. So I just actually hired an advocate to help me get services for my

son. Oh, awesome. Yeah, therapies and respite care. So that's, you know, having someone come and relieve you for a few hours a day so you can go to the store or do what you need to do, you know, or even just be in the house so I can focus on my daughter because, you know, I feel sorry. I feel sorry for my daughter sometimes because she'll want to play, but then I got to make sure my son's not going to the grocery store. So I, you know what I mean? So it's like I try my best, but so I would just say really seek services. And then if you can find any sort of inclusion model school, I'm obsessed with those type of schools. And I would say if you can try that because a lot of special needs kids are segregated their entire education career. So like probably maybe

in the school you grew up in. I'm not sure, but there was like a special ed class, right? And they're always separate. They're segregated. Well, there's a lot of studies that say if kids with differences or disabilities are segregated as children in school, they're way less likely to integrate into society. Way less likely. Yeah. Because they haven't their entire childhood. So, right? So I just found a school that my kids are going to be going to where all kids learn together. So like, the gifted kids, the special needs kids, the typically developing kids, whatever you want to call them, they're all in one class, but they have multiple teachers in the class, therapists, aides.

So all these kids get to learn in their own way. They all have support. But my son gets to watch little social kids talk, talk, talk, and he gets to learn from them. Right now his class is 10 other spectrum kids and ain't nobody talking to each other. They're all like, you know, drawn their shapes in numbers. and they're not socializing. So, right? He does so well with little chatty social kids.

He learns from them. So that's my little. I have to imagine that's beneficial for everyone, though, even like the quote unquote typical learners because I feel like with this kind of schooling we had growing up, like sometimes like I wanted to be friendly to the kids in the other classroom. But I didn't know exactly how to interact with them either. And I didn't know.

And I think that that would happen. sometimes we're like it would upset one of those students because they, because they unattent, they didn't know how to navigate social interactions with them. And so I feel like, I'm like all about that. I'm really into education. Like, yeah, Abby went to school to be a teacher. She got her degree. Yeah, I feel like I can't really claim it because I didn't, I didn't teach. I was a substitute. But you went to school for it. So you have a passion for working with kids. I do. That's my thing. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I'm all. about inclusion models.

That's really cool. Yeah, there's not that many of them too. Which is wild when you really think about it, because it's actually probably the simplest form. Yeah, I would think so. And also beneficial for kids with differences or disabilities and like you said, for typical kids to create more empathy and compassion

and to just learn to accept people who may look or act differently than you. It's real life. It's real life. Yeah. Now we've got a fun game we're going to play called Agree to Disagree. And in this game, you just say if you agree or if you disagree. And I'm going to read some props. Love it.

Those are the instructions. That's the instructions. I think I can do it. As long as it's not geometry. First up, agree to disagree. Being single is underrated. Agree. Agree.

Absolutely. I love it. but you know look at what I just came out of so I'm I'm love in life I mean I think being single is so much fun and too you can explore you know I can flirt with like four people if I want and now I'm not there there are people who have like rosters I've never done a dating app and I'm not no shade to the roster the people with like four partners I just I couldn't it's not for me you know what I mean can you explain what's the Ross, like they have like four people lined up.

They're going on dates with four different people at the same time. And actually like I feel like being intimate with multiple partners too. And I just, yeah. And so it's like the bachelor. You guys, it's crazy. Because I know, I know, it kind of, I know. I heard they're all banging each other on The Bachelor. But I don't know.

I don't know. Who knows what really is going on? Certainly Love Island they're doing that. No shade. I'm not trying to slut shame or anything. I'm just saying like, I don't know. It's not for me. But I think it's fun to just get to know different people and explore and be flirtatious and just be free.

Like that's really fun. It's fun. And also I like being single because it keeps me focused on the things that really matter, which are my kids and my friends and my art. And like that's really cool right now in my life. Maybe when I'm a little older, I'll want something more serious. but I love being single and I think it's underrated for sure. Agree to disagree. A sense of humor is sexier than a six-pack.

Ooh, absolutely agree with that. Yeah. I find funny so attractive. What about you guys? You know, I'm so removed from that because we just, we were our first, we were the first love interest ever. Like I'd never ever thought about and we just nucks to that. It's nuts to that.

But when he makes you laugh, Does that turn you on? I think I'm more the one that makes him laugh. She is way funnier than me. Okay. And do you find that attractive? Like in a, I just, as friends, I just think you're fun to be around. Like, I just like, I think that's funny.

I feel like it's amazing for a friendship. Yeah. But I think the key, like you guys nailed it. Being, marrying your best friend is key. Yeah. Like that's what I was even saying with my, with my ex-husband. Like, we laughed all day. I remember calling my mom early.

on. I was like, I met this guy and he's great, but I think he's funnier than me, you know? And I was like, kind of mad about it, but also that was so, I find it so attractive. I really value that though. Like if you don't get my humor, if we can't laugh together, no, thank you. Oh my God. So after my, when I was separated, I met another guy at a cafe. I don't know what it is. I think it's because I'm not on the apps and just whatever. I was maybe giving off that energy or something. This cute guy asked me out. And I was like, why not? Right? Why not? So I'm so nervous because it's my first date in freaking 10 years.

I don't know what I'm doing. We sit down, we go to lunch together, and he was just telling the worst jokes the whole time girl. The amount of times he like quoted Borat and like Anchorman. Do you even know what those are?

You guys too young? I do. They are so old these movies. Like I don't even know. But he was just quote like it was so bad. So cheesy. And he thought he was so funny and he really was not. And it was just the whole lunch was me going,

I feel that's oh that's yeah that I was making that face the whole time girl I was like so what so then would your opinion be but I wasn't but he was hot though okay he was hot but I didn't want to progress okay okay okay I'm not gonna ask that funny is more important than a six-pack that's good to know that's good I would agree with that right it just is for me Agree to disagree. You should never go back to an ex. Three, two, one. Who, who. Okay, no, ex-husband, I'm not. And next boyfriend, I'm not. Oh, God. No, you shouldn't. Agree. You shouldn't. Why did you hesitate there? Because life is so complex. And I think, too, and this book, like, it's actually annoying that I,

you'll see me sort of going back over and over. And as a reader, you're like, oh, come on, what are you doing? You know? But when you're in it, it's so hard. People rarely quit the first time, right? They just, they keep going back. So I would say, I would say agree. You should probably never go back to an ex.

You know, it's not black and white. I'm sure there's instances where, like, my friend who actually lives in Phoenix, and I feel like such an asshole for not calling her today, I should call her after this. But she married her high school sweetheart, or maybe college. And she moved to L.A. after college and they were long distance. And I was like, girl, that's never going to work. And she was like, yes, it is.

Like, we're just long distance right now. And I was wrong. And he moved out to L.A. and they got married. And then they moved here. And they have like two kids. No way. Yeah.

But they had broken up for that time where she was in L.A. And he was in Chicago or something. there was like a moment where they broke up or something like that, but they got back together. And so she took back the ex and they're married and happy with kids. So it's not black and white, I guess. But as a rule, why did you break up in the first place, right? So I would say maybe move on, right? You shouldn't.

That was a really long answer. I could have just said agree. You have really good answers. I like your answers. Okay. Agree to disagree. Money can buy happiness. Disagree.

Disagree. If the way you said that, it felt like you thought you should say disagree, but you wanted to say agree. Well, happiness is fleeting. So I think we're not meant to be happy all the time. It's fleeting. That's deep. That's good. Right?

Right. And so, okay, it can buy happiness for 20 minutes. You buy that cute new skirt or, thank you. Thank you. You know, and you get that little hit, that dopamine or whatever it is. you get the car, you get the whatever it is, the check. But that fades.

It's not stable. So it could buy happiness for 20 minutes or a day or two, but then it doesn't last. Happiness is an inside job too. It's an inside job, I think. Also, there's a documentary and I'll shut up called Happy, where they study happiness.

And they found that they like went all over the world to study like the happiest people and like what they're doing. And they had said in the study, if you go from unhoused to housed, if you go from on the street to having food shelter in your basic needs, your happiness level raises significantly.

But after that, after you have all your basic needs met and then you get more and more, your happiness level just goes up just a tiny bit. Isn't that interesting? It is really interesting. Like it doesn't actually go up that much. So I would argue enough money to be stable can buy you happiness.

But after that, not really. Yeah. That's true. This next one, agree to disagree. Closure is a myth. Closure is a myth? I'm thinking that refers to relationships. Obviously, yeah.

Like, how would you guys define closure? An action concluding, shutting down, or the satisfying sense of finality. Ooh. The satisfying sense of finale. I think that's, I agree that that's possible. So then you disagree that it's a myth. I disagree that it's a myth. Yeah.

That's good. Yeah. This one's a little easier. Agree to disagree. Everyone should try a stand-up comedy at least once. Ooh. Disagree. Why would you put yourself through that if you don't have to? I'm a comedian and I have to force myself to do it. That seems terrifying to be honest. I feel like comedy especially stand-up is like one of the most like highly respected arts where you're just like that is tricky. And it's also just, I imagine it has to take so much guts to just get up there and do that.

Oh yeah. The first time I ever did it, I bombed so hard. I went to the comedy store in L.A. And I bombed. It was crickets. And then the emcee got on after and was like, look, she's a 10. Comedy,

she's a two. I've heard that before about, they're called comics, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, but they're just brutally honest.

So if you don't do a good job, you'll get made fun of for sure. Yeah. At least they didn't go, look, she's a two, comedy, she's a two. They guess like that.

You're like, at least I was kind of hot. Do you think comedy is harder for women? Do you think the standard's different? I do, yeah. That's one of the reasons I stopped doing stand-up. It was like I was just surrounded by no offense, but men. Like it was like a man's world, really. You know?

Even my dad was like, why are you doing that to your face? Stop making funny faces. Like, you're pretty. Do drama. Like even my dad was like, what are you doing? you know, like didn't like that I was a clown. And so I had to like rebel because I wanted to do comedy. But even in his mind, no, guys are supposed to be funny.

Women are supposed to be pretty and a little more subdued. Right? And we're trained like that. So I had to break that. It's definitely harder for women. Let's do this one next then. It says, agree to disagree. Women are judged more harshly online than men.

This is the online spin, not necessarily the comedy world. I would agree. I would agree. Would you? I would say in general, I agree. But in certain niches, it is reversed. This one's interesting. Agree to disagree.

Success is lonely. Success is lonely. Yeah, I would say. Like, it's weird because, and I'm sure you guys experience this too. You'll be at a store or something and someone comes up and they're like, feel like they know your whole life because they do. and they feel like they're your best friend, but you don't really know them. So it's this like one-sided thing,

and then there's just like a picture, and then they go away and you're just like, I don't know. There is something, I guess, lonely about that, you know? And yeah, being like known, I guess is weirdly lonely, even though you have millions of people that are like following your life. It can be, but that's maybe when I'm PMSing.

I mean, I don't feel alone in my life. Like, I have good, you know, good friends and stuff. I don't know. I don't know. What do you think? You answer it. Is success lonely? I don't feel.

It's actually stressful. That's what it is. It's not lonely and stressful because you've got to keep it all going. Abby, by like, dictionary definition is an influencer, but she's like, I'm not an influencer. I'm a mom. I have my girlies and we, you know, go take our kids to the. splash pad. So like, I guess I'm saying success can feel lonely. Okay? I said it. Yeah, yeah, you feel like, yeah, you feel like it can feel lonely. Yeah. Yeah. And then you don't, you don't want to see the,

the numbers go down. So then you, and that can feel like, I don't know, that, that's, that sucks. And then you're like, what? It's like, why am I even freaking doing this, you know? It, it is. It's a, yeah, it's why I think we should have, especially if you're in this line of work a really strong, some sort of like spiritual foundation, something, just something that grounds you and gets you humble and knowing that your self-worth is not contingent on how successful you are. Oh my God, like if a video flops with people are like, flop era, you're in your flop era. It's like, flop era, like I'm a human and this video didn't hit four million. So like, you know what I mean? Oh, she's over. She's done. It's like, you're a huge, we're humans. No, we're

done. This is just like one stupid part. Like I like your mindset of just like, no, I'm just, I'm a mom and I'm a friend and, you know, your self-worth is not contingent on your success. And that's amazing. So, you know, that's something that I, I remind myself of too, you know. That's good. Right? Yeah. This is just whatever. It doesn't even matter. None of this matters. This podcast doesn't matter. If your book flops, it doesn't matter. Thanks for giving us an hour and a half. If my book flop, it actually doesn't matter.

I was thinking about that. I'm like, if no one buys it, like, that's okay. My kids are healthy. Like, you know what I mean? I hope it can help people and reach people. But it's going to be what it's going to be. I don't know. That's what I think.

Your podcast matters. Thank you. It does matter. And your book matters. But it's not the most important thing. Totally. Right? Yeah.

It's like it's awesome and it probably people love it and they love listening to you guys and it's awesome. But it's like whatever. If it stops like you'll be okay. Yeah. If I stop writing books, it's okay. Yeah. You know? I don't know.

This is a fun one to conclude this segment. Okay. Agree to disagree. You can tell a lot about someone by what makes them laugh. Oh, agree. Absolutely. I mean, I wouldn't say I had a wildly dysfunctional childhood. I was a pretty happy kid.

But I got into a lot of trouble and, you know, there was some craziness. And I have a dark sense of humor. And so immediately when someone else has like kind of a morbid sense of humor, I immediately connect to them. And like, you know, and I know. It's like I have a theory if you have crooked teeth, you grow up without money. So whenever I meet people with crooked teeth like mine, I'm like, aha. Like we just vibe on this like crooked tooth level. Yeah.

Because I know you couldn't afford braces and me neither. And me neither. And so like I just, and it's the same thing with humor. Like what they laugh at just tells you a lot about what someone's been through. Or like in my recovery meetings, we make the most morbid jokes. Like someone will just be like, yeah, I tried. But the rope broke. And everyone's like, ha, ha, ha, ha.

You know, it's like, oh my God, this is so dark. But, you know, whatever, they overcame and you're able to laugh about it. So I think you can gauge a lot about someone from what they find funny. Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on the show. The book comes out July 14th, correct? So everybody go check it out. We'll put a link in the description so you guys can, you know, go buy it, go support, Laura. Where's the best place for people to connect with you?

Yeah, so anywhere you have social media, I'm unfortunately there. I'm just there. So, you know, if TikTok is your thing or YouTube or Facebook or Instagram or Patreon, it's just my name, Laura Clary, and you can find me there. I just want to say, I gained so much from this conversation. Like, I think that like not only are you beautiful and hilarious, but you have so much depth to you and so much wisdom that. that it's just, it's great listening to you speak. And you can just tell that you have, you're so resilient and you've done so much work

on yourself to get to where you are today. And I've like read so many like excerpts from this that now I'm like so excited to fully like dive in and read the whole thing. Thank you so much. That means a lot. You guys are amazing. And I wanted to not like you. I was like, oh, married couple.

Oh, great. Why did I feel insecure? I was like, I'm just kidding. But I was like, dang, we actually are married. and love each other. No, you are. And you know what? It's amazing to see and you've restored my faith in love.

Seeing you two together. Really has. It's awesome to see. You can just tell that you're the real deal. One more thing. The way someone talks to kids for me, like you can just tell. You met one of our sons before this and I was like she's gold immediately. Yeah.

I take, I'm one of those people that I trust my instinct too much. But I was like... She has a good impression. And I'm like, she's great. She's amazing. She's amazing. And then sometimes you're like, mm. No, like, I trusted to a point where it's like, I'm like, well, no, that.

That's not really them. See, they, I know that... Oh, I see. You're too... Yeah. Okay, we're actually similar. Like, yeah. I got the gauge, though, so...

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I just think you're awesome in the real deal. Thank you. Everyone check out her book. Check out all her pages. And thanks for talking with us. Thank you so much for having me. Yes.

It's fun. Yeah. Thank you for listening. What doesn't kill you makes you hotter. Check it out. All right. We'll see you the next episode.