The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Dr. John Delony breaks down affairs, s*x conflict & the worst parenting mistakes

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

Dr. John Delony joins Matt & Abby to talk about marriage, parenting, and the hard conversations couples avoid. From emotional affairs and s*xual conflict to the impact of raising kids on your relationship, Dr. Delony shares honest advice that challenges cultural norms—and might just change the way you think about your family. This episode is sponsored by Rocket Money, Nutrafol & Bobbie. Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to https://RocketMoney.com/unplanned. Nutrafol: Visit https://nutrafol.com and enter promo code UNPLANNEDPOD for $10 off any order and free shipping when you subscribe. Bobbie: Visit https://hibobbie.com for an additional 10% off your purchase with code UNPLANNED. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Nobody tells parents that for about two years, you're going to have survival sex. I am wearing my nursing bra. You are wearing sweats. We got nine minutes. If we're going to do this, we're going to do this. The prevailing wisdom when I was a little kid was, if you fight in front of the kids, you're going to scare them. And what it did was it robbed kids of seeing their parents

disagree and still be on the same team. Just look at our political discourse now. If we disagree on something I'll have to hate you. We overuse the word need. When I tell you I need this I have put my well-being in my life on you. It's a way scary or way more vulnerable thing to say I want. How do we raise boys that are emotionally intelligent? You want the Instagram answer or like the truthful answer? I want the truth. Okay. We sat down with Dr. John Deloney,

a mental health expert and host of the John Deloney show under the Dave Ramsey Network. John spent two decades in crisis response working as a university dean and mental health counselor. He holds two PhDs and has written multiple bestselling books. But what makes John so compelling isn't just his credentials.

He tells the truth, even when it's uncomfortable. We talk about why parents should not be friends with their kids, as well as so much more all into his episode. Dr. John Deloney, welcome to the unplanned podcast. Thank you for having me. It's awesome. I feel like every time I see you on YouTube, it's always answering the most like intense relationship questions. Is that like every time I see you on YouTube is always answering the most like intense relationship questions. Is that like so much pressure on you? If

somebody calls in that means they have nowhere else to go and they're gonna ask you something and they are probably gonna do what you say so you need to be right and so yeah there's a weight to that but the other side of it is I've got young kids and I'm still trying to figure out how to be married too so like you can know all the clinical stuff in the world, but there's also a reality to it all. And so I'm much more interested in do people feel like they can pull up a seat at the bar and just talk than just being right.

We did a recent episode where we were reacting to relationship stories on Reddit and it was honestly laughable at how the response across the board for every relationship question was leave him, leave her. Every single time. It doesn't matter what the situation was, it was just, you deserve more, and you're better than them. Why is our culture preaching that message today?

Well, it's one of two things. Either you bum in with that, because you don't have the courage to leave your abusive situation, or your gnarly situation, or maybe it's not courage, right? Like, if I leave, I know I'm gonna go go be a single mom and we're going to be in poverty for three, four years.

So it's easy to lecture somebody else about you need to because I can't or I'm not. The other side of it is, dude, we're all led around by our feelings. That's just like the cultural air we breathe, which is if it doesn't feel X, Y, and Z, then it's run its course or you should be done now. And you should always feel a certain way. And I think that's terrible marriage advice, that's terrible work advice, that's terrible friendship advice.

Like feelings are just, it's an alarm system, man, but it's not, it's job is not to tell you the truth. It's job to keep you safe. And sometimes I might feel, I don't like my wife today. I love her and I'll burn the world down for her. I'll storm the gates of hell for her, but I'm annoyed. And that doesn't mean my marriage is over. And that doesn't mean that we need to start seeing other people. It doesn't mean any of those things. It just means today, I don't feel great. How do you know when your feelings are right and

you're valid feeling that certain way? And how do you know when to not trust your feelings? I think that circles all the way back to we've created the loneliest generation in human history. I know personally, I'm an emotional guy. I'm a lot, right? Most of the time, I need some wise counsel in my life. I've got a group of friends, I've been friends with for 30 years, and I've got men in my life who are 10 years ahead of me

being married and raising kids. And so I've got to have somebody that I call and say, hey, I said this thing, and my wife who I've been with with 23 years now, right? She responded this way. Am I crazy? And they'll be like, yes, what's the matter with you? Right. And I need that. Or that didn't sound right, man. Y'all need to circle back. And so having somebody that I can call, it's the same as like going to the gym, right? Like it's good to have somebody either at the gym or somebody on your phone or somebody who used to be college athlete. like, hey, my knee's doing this thing. Is that right?

And they'll be like, yeah, you're not injured. Like you're doing squats again. Yeah. It's going to feel a little bit achy and awkward. You're good. Or yeah, stop what you're doing and go see somebody. Do you ever feel like it's hard to separate like your personal marriage and relationship and then like your work?

Yeah. Yeah. I have a rule that I don't talk about things publicly that I'm still working through in real life. And that line gets pretty blurry. You're not allowed to have a public fight in the grocery store probably. But I'm pretty open that like that happens, right? And your marriage isn't weird if you have a fight

or if your two year old does a temper tantrum or my nine year old, she's a human hurricane. And she's, that's the best thing about her. And a meltdown in a public forum is not an indictment on me as a dad or what kind of failed marriage and parenting environment. She's nine, dude. That's why we don't let them buy cigarettes or beer because they're nine. Right? And so the comment sections tend to extract context and humanity out of some of this stuff. And that's why I just say, don't read them. It's

hard. Have you had any awkward public situations like that or encounters with people seeing things? There's been several times like I'm in a bathroom like in a stall I go to the bathroom and some guy will come into the like to the little stand-up stall next to me and look over. You know you don't make eye contact you look at the little tile square ahead of you that's what you you do. And they'll be like, Oh, hey, are you that guy? And I'm like, Hey man. And then it will go from that to, Hey man, me and my wife aren't having sex anymore. And I'm like, not a good time, dude. Not a good time, man. Not a good time. Yeah, not a good time. And it's like, Oh,

I'm sorry. Right. It's both like, man, you feel safe enough just to let that rip while we're both peeing. Right? Like there's that. The harder ones are like you're getting a diet coke somewhere and somebody is like, oh man, hey, I cheated on my husband and I cheated with his brother and like, could you go talk to, like, no, no, no, no. People actually say that to you. Oh, all the time.

That's actually happened. All the time, yeah. Someone came up to you and said, I cheated on my spouse. Bro. Can you go talk to them for me? I mean, you wouldn't believe me if the guy isn't sitting right there that has witnessed it.

Yeah, it's just- What do they expect you to do? I don't know. When the show started, I so desperately, because I was so insecure, I so desperately wanted to be the huberman of mental health. Yeah. Like, oh, I'm gonna teach it. Nobody wanted to hear that. Yeah.

What they had never seen before, and we weren't even smart enough to think this through, is I'm a big, tall, loud Texan. They'd never seen before and I didn't we weren't even smart to think this through is I'm a big tall loud Texan they'd never seen that picture of that guy sit with somebody who just blew their marriage out, right? And so what I found was like people are interested in that interaction Yeah, because when their sister calls and says hey, I think I just cheated on my husband I don't to do we don't have a model for that So either lecture them or we like send them a podcast link or we're like you should go to church

We don't know what to do. And so I think that that model is so rare. That picture of sitting with somebody who's hurting is so rare people think, I would love just to be able to get this guy's opinion on or I'd love to just sit down. And so they get up there and they just like, it just vomits out. And so you look at somebody and you often see them like,

yeah, I don't know what I expected you to do with that information. I'm like, I get, I mean, I'm at a shake shack, dude. I like, you should probably talk to a therapist. Like, I don't know, but it's tough. I love how you brought up the relationship problem of sex. Cause I feel like that is something that every couple at some point in marriage is going to be like, we had a disagreement around that topic. Bro, not some point. It will come up all the time

forever. I mean, is that the most common? You're not two and a one year old, man. I mean, we've been together nine years, and I would be lying if I said we've never had a disagreement over that. Is that the most common question you get? It's like a sex question from? It's pretty common, but not usually. It often is a proxy question.

I'm going to way overgeneralize here, OK? Way stereotype. Most men gauge, and again, this is like a traditional hetero couple, like most men will gauge the health of that relationship by are we having sex. And if they can enter into, if they're having sex, then finally there's a space in the world,

you've earned my trust that I can tell you what's actually going on in my heart. Like in my spirit, I'm scared about the economy, I'm scared about the world our kids are gonna have in. I might lose my job, AI might take, but you have to prove, and for all human history, guys were shoulder to shoulder solving something or building something or constructing.

Like that was the way we're like have evolved to, I have to know I'm safe before I tell you this is okay. If you and I just were sitting at a Mexican food restaurant here in town and I just met you and I sat down and I was like, Hey dude, I'm really like worried about like, I'm kind of having anxiety. That would be weird. I can see your face. That's kind of weird, dude. And vice versa for all human history. If a woman had sex, she might get pregnant. And up until recently, pregnancy could lead to death. At the very least, pregnancy

was a lifetime commitment for her, not for him. And so she has to know, I can trust you, that if this thing happens, that we create a human, that you're not gonna leave, that you're gonna be safe, that you're gonna protect us, you're gonna be with us. That's evolution, that's all human history. And so often women want to feel known and seen and safe before I literally let somebody else into my body, right?

And so guys wanna know we're safe via sex so that we can talk, and she wants to know, to feel known and seen and safe before I literally let somebody else into my body, right? And so guys wanna know we're safe via sex so that we can talk. And she wants to know, hey, we gotta be, I gotta know you're safe so that we can do this thing. And then it just becomes, the proxy is how much are we having sex or how wild is sex or is my heart,

are we having heart rate, like am I heart rate getting upset or this is boring? But beneath that is, do you still love me? Are we still okay? Are we still okay? Are we still safe? And getting to that level of, we don't have a vocabulary for that at all. And so the war has played out with what kind of sex are we having, how much sex are we having, when, where, all those kind of, there's a whole ecosystem about sex.

And really the questions are, do you see me and do you know me? And can we just like play? Right? Can we just like get back to having fun and, or can we create new fun in the world? And so it's just, I don't know, sex has become such a existential topic for people. It's like one of the top three, right? Always. It's like finances, sex, and then-

Children? Nobody tells parents of a two and a one year old that for about two years you're going to have survival sex. You'll have nine minutes. You'll have nine minutes and I am wearing my nursing bra and you are wearing sweats. We have nine minutes. If we're going to do this, we're going to do this. That's not in any movie.

That's not in any like porno that anybody's watched. Like that doesn't exist anywhere. But that's real. That's the in any like porno that anybody's watched. Like that doesn't exist anywhere. But that's real. That's the reality of it. And can we find glimpses of fun and reconnection and laughter in those moments? And can we find vulnerability when I'm recovering from pregnancy or I've been working 17 hour days

trying to build a business? Can we find those moments there? And if you have to find those moments, then what our culture tells us is, well then the relationship's probably over. Or that's the moment when that woman at work laughs at your joke really loud. And it feels like, oh, she sees me.

My wife who's really busy doing this and this and this and this and this, like, oh, she sees me. Or that guy at work says, man, you look really nice today. And it's easy to go, that feels good to be complimented my husband complimented me alongside right and now You start it's just this much and you start wanting to know is he gonna tell me I look good again today Or is she gonna think this joke is funny I'm gonna put this joke in the presentation see and all of a sudden right and you end up just by degree But you end up, you know six inches apart from end up, you know, six inches apart from your spouse,

but you're 6,000 miles away from it. You have a whole other world that you've created. I was looking at your Instagram story today, and you were talking about these conversation cards, which by the way, I love conversation cards. I think you having those four couples to connect. Matt does love good conversation cards. I think they're awesome.

He brings them up on dates or like with our family. They're just, they're just a great way to connect and have like real conversations that actually matter. I don't know. I love deep conversations. I think that's fun. But at the same time, conversations are great. But when the trials and tribulations of life come along, it almost feels impossible to have a conversation like that.

It almost feels impossible to connect with your person that, or almost feels impossible to connect with your person. Would you say that marriage is ending? Is that because of a lack of communication or do marriages end just because of the mere challenge that life is? Like life isn't easy. I think marriage is in for a whole bunch of reasons, but I think we're a culture that talks a lot and we don't have any other metric for are we okay. My wife, she doesn't talk near as much as me. She's like a walking Xanax, it's amazing. We found each other, right?

And if it was up to her, she would make 19 lists in a day. She would check everything off that list. She'd go to bed at nine o'clock and she'd have a great life. And for me, I'm like, dude, it is nine. I bet Theo's still on stage at Zany's right down the street. He lives in Nashville. I bet he's still on stage.

Let's go right now. Like, let's just get on go, right? And that's just, I bought tickets to an old hardcore show about two months ago. I totally forgot about them. And I got home and I was like, oh, that's tonight. It was at the end of an event. I got home and my son was like,

I have a sleep on the couch. And I said, dude, dress in all black. I'm taking you out. You've never been to a punk rock show. You're going. And he's like, what dad? And we're married that way. But I like talking.

I like feeling. And then a few weeks ago, my wife comes in and she said, either Brooklyn Nine-Nine or the office, I need to borrow your nervous system for about 30 minutes. And she went to do something and I sat on the couch, turned on one of those episodes, and she curled up like a Labrador. That was it. That was the most connected I have felt with her in months.

And that was her saying, not only do I need you, but I want you. And she curled up, we watched a show, we laughed, and then it was over. She literally was like, all right. And she's like, good night. And that was it. And that was awesome.

But we didn't have to say a word, right? So I think we're a culture that likes to talk a lot because we don't have other touch points in our life. The problem underneath that is we've created such margin-free lives. We have not a second to spare. And we have to get back to creating space in our lives for just accidental life to happen

so that we can breathe and then we can ask ourselves, what do I really want right now? I wanna just sit on couch next to you. Can we just like touch knees while we watch TV? Or I just wanna go make out. Can we just go do that? Can we just go for a walk, right? And if you don't have that,

it's just spinning, spinning, spinning. And then you started saying, how many times we have sex this week? Oh, only two? Well, they're having four. So we we must be right now the whole thing just unwinds on itself So what is like the perfect number? Cuz I feel like you probably have figured this out by now the like the ideal the ideal Here's this is the interest you're a doctor. I know that you could The ideal number of times every good married couple should have sex is whatever number

you all agree on. The number is, how many times did we agree on? And usually that Sunday night, like what does this week look like for us? Thank you to Rocket Money for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. I was actually using Rocket Money just yesterday to cancel unwanted subscriptions because our son keeps buying subscriptions when he plays with our TV remote. That's happened a lot actually. It's really ridiculous. He's one. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending,

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That's rocketmoney.com slash unplanned. Rocketmoney.com slash unplanned. Nothing is less sexy. Nothing is less Hollywood than say Tuesday night's a free night, it is on Tuesday night. And Thursday night we have something but we'll be home at seven, it's on. Do you schedule it out in your personal life?

You have to. Oh you do? But you also create margin for like, oh this is happening right now, right? That you have to create margin for that too. See I started falling in love with using our calendar and I was like, babe, we should put this on the calendar. She was like, ain't no way.

That is posted in our kitchen. Not that one. Yeah, you have to come up with a code. We can have a private calendar, you know? No, people just started picking up on the code too. Oh yeah, we did have a code word. We had a code word. You can't say it in case that family doesn't pick it up.

I know people found out the code word. I feel like they're suspicions. Geez, we gotta find a new code word. Okay, but the idea that, like that's the other thing, like everyone knows this is happening. Well, that's what I said with Matt when we were playing this podcast, Matt was like, okay, well like a lot of his top ones

are talking about sex, and I was like, okay, well, like a lot of his top ones are talking about sex. And I was like, Matt, we are 26. We have two children. Let's talk about sex. Okay? Because we, like, I feel like we tiptoe around it a lot. It's probably because grandma sometimes listen. We don't have to talk personally.

We have had basically every family member listen to our podcast. But I think we can talk about it in general terms that are appropriate because we're married. We have two kids and I feel like it's a topic that I always wanted to talk about. You're two for two. Congratulations. Two for two. That's right, two for two. Thank you. I'm trying to help out. I feel like it plays a really big role like always but especially after having kids because it changes so dramatically. That's right. Like when you said survivor sex or survival sex, I was like, yeah that's relatable. But you can have great married sex

for three minutes in a hotel bathroom and y'all, you can't, while your kids are asleep, you can. And you can also plan, hey, grandma, I need you to come take the kids because we're going away for a weekend and we're gonna breathe, we're gonna exhale and we're gonna, there'll be no diapers, no bottles to wash, nothing, right?

And both of those things are real. Yeah. And it's getting underneath the what do, and this is the part I've gotten pushback on, and I haven't, I'm still thinking this through out loud. I may be wrong in a couple months, but I think we overuse the word need. I think we're abusive with that word need, because when I tell you I need this,

I have put my wellbeing and my life on you. You have to give me this thing or you're not giving me what I need. And needs, we need food and water and oxygen. That's what we need, right? It's a way scarier, way more vulnerable thing to say, I want, because you might say, I don't want. And now we need to have that conversation.

But one of the most common questions I get is, how do I get my wife to take me off of a chore list? I want her to want me. I want her to desire me. But if I'm walking around all the time saying, like, I need sex and I need to have like four times a week, then you go on a chore list, man. I got to take care of this. I've got to take care of this. I got to turn these reports at work.

I got two kids I got prepare snacks for before they, and then I gotta get my husband off, and then I gotta, like you go on a tour list, when you tell her like, I want you, I love you and I miss you and I want you, well that's a totally different question, that's an invitation, and that's how you end up with, here's what my schedule looks like,

and here's what you can do to help. And then most guys are taught in a locker room, abs, money, and like, yeah. I've never one time heard in a locker room, Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening, like calendar time is like the hottest aphrodisiac in the world. Or not owing anybody any money is pretty amazing.

Or helping with the dishes or just washing the bottles. Then you start to give that sense like, oh he's safe, he sees me, he knows what I'm working through. He's a part of this thing. Oh, I think I like that guy. The whole ecosystem shifts. I saw a reel and it was her husband coaching her son's baseball team.

And she's like, if you would have told 20 year old me that this would be the sexiest thing I've ever saw in my life. Everything just changes. Like it changes. Yeah. Well, I have a lot of respect for you because you said on your show, something along the lines of your wife came to you when you were, you know, in the midst of just hustling, hustling, grinding, grinding, and you know, you were doing all these

speaking engagements and just, I guess, spending a lot of time in this like work quadrant of your life. And I essentially, correct me if I'm wrong, but you essentially said that you realized that a lot of the stuff you were doing for work wasn't actually for your family, it was just for you. It was to satisfy your own ego. And I feel like a lot of guys, me included, can relate to that. Well, I didn't discover it, but she called it out. I mean, it was important. But she said like, I told you when I married you, I would never tell you no. Go to your speaking engagements, go to your comedy nights, like whatever. Just don't you dare say this is

for us. It's not. This is for you and your ego. And the word that unmoored, like that unspooled me was, she said, John, we have enough. And I didn't have a psychology for that word. And as I've dug into it, and I mean, all the way, not to get all dark, but the male suicide rate, like it was a revelation to me, almost 20 years into being married. Oh, she wants me.

Not this stuff, not this world I can provide for her. She wants me and I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know how to show up in that way. And yes, every guy needs to have a job. Like all that stuff is still true, but she wanted me and I was the problem there because I didn't like me. And so I liked that I made money. I liked that I could get on stages and people liked that. I liked that my show was successful. You just want me around? And dude, I didn't have a psychology for that.

What did you change in your life after your wife came to you with that? I've talked about this a little bit publicly, not a lot, but the other thing that was happening at the time was what I thought was my big dirty secret, which was I have this emotional health and relationship and parenting show that's like doing really great, but my daughter wouldn't hug me. She wouldn't hold, she wouldn't come near me. It was an electric thing and it had been since she was really young and my wife, a couple

of weeks later, it was in this same time period said, is there any chance that her teeny tiny little body has identified you as not safe? And I got upset and I was like, dude, I don't swear, I don't hit the kid, like I'm hitting, and she's like, no, no, no, no, you're an amazing dad, don't hear me say that. But we all can feel that nuclear reactor in your chest,

that there's always something grinding. And so between that, we have enough, between that, like, no, no, no, your daughter, she wants to hug you with anything in the world, but her body's just not safe. That I wouldn't sit down with a therapist. And you can imagine, I'm a nightmare to be a therapist for, right? And I started like a nine month conversation dude and I I talked about stuff that happened to me as a kid that I've I just sit down to my wife I've known you for almost 30 years and you didn't know this happened to me when I

was a kid I'm sorry and but it was so it was so in the vault right and so working through some of these childhood traumas working through some of my own stuff then there was about nine months after that, that I was wrestling with my son, and the words came out of my mouth, Josephine, get off me. I was laughing. And I just stopped, and I was like, oh my gosh. Like, now I'm a human jungle gym for her.

And she's nine, I was just several years ago. She wants to be carried everywhere, right? But it was me having to go sit down with somebody and say, I don't know what the deal is, man, but I don't like who I see in the mirror and you start pulling the thread on that. And this happened in childhood and this happened and this happened and there is some serious healing

that happens, it was awesome. And now I walk around just 50 pounds lighter, not really, but just the whole world's lighter. Was that scary, walking into that first therapy session the first one would know because I'm kind of a bulldog in those oh yeah the the second and third one were real hard and the fourth and fifth one were a nightmare yeah they were real tough just because you were pouring out your heart and sharing things that you'd basically never told anybody before I didn't think speaking something out would there's no

reason to talk about it. Like I go to work, I'm successful, I'm a good dad, I'm a good husband, like I'm gonna only talk about this stuff. The great David Kessler, I think he is the world's master on grief, says grief demands a witness. Every major faith tradition for all of human history

has a thing, some sort of thing called confession. We've turned that into, tell us all the bad things you've done. That's not the origin of confession. The origin of confession is, oh yeah, you too. It's being witnessed, this happened. I let myself down again, and there's something healing in that interaction, and then there's some things

you can go do to begin to unwind some of that. But yeah, it was terrifying, it was terrifying. Especially for a guy that knows all the, I have two PhDs, dude. You have all the academic stuff. And the thing I hadn't done was to sit down and be seen. And then be known. And your daughter wanting to play with you and have you hold her after being scared of you holding her.

Was that just because of an emotional change that occurred in yourself after going to therapy? The only way I can describe it is the nuclear reactor's gone. I still get frustrated. I get angry about stuff. I get annoyed or whatever. Yeah. But that pervasive anger that sits inside of a kid that got hurt when he was young, it's gone. Yeah. And that's just working through it. And it spins back up every once in a while. And when I have, you know, your body puts little GPS pins in things that happen when you're a kid, right? And it has an alarm system, it's always going off. And so it still happens, but now I know.

And now I have some steps to go take care of stuff. And for Christmas this year, I asked my wife, like, what's the one thing you want? And she's like, would you go back and see? I was like, oh, we're back. I did a marriage event in October, like a weekend retreat in Nashville. And then we did it again for Valentine's Day weekend. And I was reviewing the notes in Valentine's that I had written for October. And it's like two days, it's like seven keynotes. It's a long weekend. And I called my

wife from work and I was like, Hey, was I not okay during October, October, November? And she's like, no. Right. She's like, so I told you to go see. So it happens. It happens and new things happen. And you said this best. When you have a kid, that marriage y'all had for seven years, it's over. There's a period at the end. It's over. That marriage is over. We can make out whenever we want to. We have money just to kind of like do what we want to. The spine, oh, it's over, and it was awesome. And I think people don't have a sight for, this new life is gonna be awesome too,

but we get to decide what it is. And then you had a second kid, new world, man, and you have a third kid and y'all are like playing zone instead of man to man, new marriage. We have a new marriage every time. We had a new marriage when I was trying to go through grad school. We had a new marriage when I got my big fancy

higher education jobs. And then we had a new marriage when I was trying to go through grad school. We had a new marriage when I got my big fancy higher education jobs. And then we had a new marriage when I was, as my son calls dad, you're just a YouTuber now. Like I have a new, we had a new, because it's a new world, right? And so now it's become my favorite thing. It used to be a desperation to hold on. Like I just want to get back.

I just want to get back to. Now my favorite thing about being married is, what's this year? We get to build whatever we want this year. What do we want it to look like? And that has become my favorite part of the year. Is that like an intentional conversation you have like in December or?

Okay, so I'll tell you the origin of this. I was in education and I had a conversation with the Dean of a business school and he was meeting with my staff. I brought him in to meet with the staff. He's a great presenter. And he talked about his family's strategic plan and I was like, oh god kill me. This is so lame y'all are ridiculous And I on behalf of my staff

I was like why do you have a strategic plan with your family? And he said how many years do we spend in our businesses? Two-year plans five-year plans ten-year plans goes, and it doesn't matter, but with our families we just expect those to happen. And I was like, okay, you got me. And so I probably wouldn't call it a strategic plan, but tell me more. And he said, every year we get together and we've created family values that we hang on the wall of our house. And so instead of saying like, you disrespected your mother, get out! Well now I've just taught my kid,, there's a line when I'm gonna disconnect from you and you can't be in my presence,

which is the worst thing a parent can do to a kid. Or, dude, we have a series of family values, this is who we are, and because you talked to her this way, you chose to step out for five minutes. Don't choose that, man, this house doesn't work without you, right? And every year we get together and revisit, what are these values?

Are we still in? And me and my wife have been doing it long enough now that it's, what do you think you did great this year? How did I experience you that was awesome this year? And then the scary ones are like, okay, how did you see me as a spouse? How did you experience me as a spouse? How did you experience me as a parent? And knowing that we're on the same team, then it's iron sharpens iron.

It's not complaining and whining. It's accountability and love and connection. And I saw you really struggling this year. So do you have all of your family values listed out on a wall in your household? Well, in fact, we just redid them and I sent them to an artist in Nashville. Um, and he's, he's painting them real big and yeah, they'll go right in the middle of our living room. That's awesome.

Right in the middle. We're, I mean, in our dining room where we eat, but yeah, it's just, this is who the Dolomites are. And this is what we want people to feel when they come into our house and where we eat. But yeah, it's just this is who the Dillonies are. This is what we want people to feel when they come into our house and when they leave our house. And it's awesome. But it's all of us deciding this is who we are. And this is who the Dillonies are gonna be.

So even the kids have input into what's in the values. Yeah, yeah. And in fact, this time we brought along my daughter. She'd never been a part of it. And she kept saying kinda out there stuff. And then she was articulate enough to say, y'all keep skipping mine. And so I wanted it to be like a good strategic plan,

get down to like five core value. We ended up with like 17, which is way too many. But what was more important for her and for my son, they see themselves represented in this thing too, right? And good grief, that's awesome, right? But it creates a context from which we operate. So when I'm tired and I don't want anybody like, everyone's welcome at the Delaney house.

I don't care who you vote for, I don't care who you are, you are welcome in my house. And my dad was a homicide detective, everybody's welcome in my house, I don't care. And it's a reminder for me, so when I'm like, that person's crazy, my son will say, I don't feel like that's who we are, dad So when I'm like that person's crazy my dad's my son will say I don't sound like that's who we are dad. I'm like here I do they're annoying but they're welcome at the house Right, so it's a good it's everybody's got a voice in it. If you wouldn't mind sharing. What are a few of the other ones?

Hospitality is a big thing Curiosity over judgment like instead of saying hey, that's stupid It's the question that we constantly come back to is tell me more about that. Or I don't see it like that at all. I'd love to hear how you got there, right? Which is just a more welcoming way to talk about things. Thank you to NutriFull for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Guys, my hair growth process has been,

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home with this large theological declaration and my instinct was to be like, dude, you're 14, shut up. But even I caught myself and I was like, that's a bold statement for a 14 year old, tell me more about that. And as he explained it, he got to the end and was like, that doesn't even make any sense, that I don't even know why I said that. But it was a good, he got to get there, right?

That's a big one, dignity and respect. Like, just talk to people kindly. Like, treat each other with respect in the house. Those are some of the big ones. I'm a very curious person and so, I love hearing all of your hot takes, all of your opinions because I admire how decisive you are.

I admire how when people present you with a question, you seem to just know the answer. But I guess my question for you is, I don't know, I feel like you do. But my question for you is, is there something that is making you curious right now? 18 months ago, I was signing books and you all have done like you sign stuff and it's just a big long line and you're like greeting people taking pictures and somebody quietly asked is marriage still worth it? And I defaulted right into like well me and my wife and she's like no no no I know your your marriage has worked out. Is it still worth it anymore? Can you just I mean dude like the latest research just came out the other day that 25 to 35 year old women are making more money than men in that demographic.

Like the world has shifted economically. The world has shifted. Like it used to be, if you had a, if you were a single mother, there was kind of like some, now it's you can go do what you want to do. Right. And so is this institution, does it still have value? And that question haunted me because I couldn't look at her and rattle off the data. What's the financial outcomes of this? What's the sex and intimacy? What is the long-term care?

Like I didn't have that data and so that's where I've been really obsessed over the last 18 months or so. It's going down a rabbit hole. Is it an institution that's run its course in this like spoiler alert? No, in fact, I think it may be the last binding agent we have of a culture wow that's a big one that's a lot i didn't expect you to say that yeah that's the one that haunts me all the time wow i don't really know how that's a that's a deep thought yeah i think it's interesting that you bring up like i just recently heard that statistic about like women i think you said 25 to

35 out earning men and like my gut reaction as a woman was like, oh yeah. And I feel like I'm- Like we won, we won. Yeah. Feminism baby. Right, right, right. And the most dangerous demographic in human history is alienated quasi young men.

Ooh. They'll burn this place to the ground. And so it's like Richard Reeves writes so amazing. He's got a book called of boys and men I think every human should read that book, but essentially I have a young daughter Like in an effort to raise her up and by the way, like my mom this isn't long Like my mom was not allowed to get a checking account without my dad's signature. That's not a hundred years. That's my mother wild Yeah, and so I want every learning outcome. I want every pedagogical research. I want

everything. So how can I lift my daughter up? Yeah. But we did it by burning little boys to the ground. And so now we have a generation of young men whose jobs have been taken over by technology, who have been told since they were zero, you as a being is something's broken in you. If you wanna wiggle and move, we wanna sit you in a seat for eight hours, if you wanna wiggle and move,

there's something wrong with your brain. If you talk too much, there's something wrong with your character. If you wanna prove yourself, there's something toxic about that, right? We've just told little boys, there's something wrong with you. And then they get to a certain level and there's, you don't have any opportunity

more, man, unless you want to go do stuff that you weren't trained to do. And so, yeah, it's a frightening layer that we're sitting on right now. Yeah, I feel like it's made me ask myself, like... You're two little boys, right? Yeah, I have two little boys. It's like something I'm really interested in, especially because I feel like we're not quite to those... Obviously, these years are very critical, but for different reasons, they're not... I think once we start getting to the teens, pre-teen age, it's like I want to have a better

understanding of how I view this because I think there's a way that we can keep women elevated, obviously, but without... I don't think the relationship has to have that inverse effect, is what I'm saying. One person doesn't have to get burned to the ground. Exactly. You can lift both people up, yeah, that's right. Like what do you propose?

I mean Reeves does some great, he goes all the way back to just, he's pretty scientific about it. Like young girls' brains are for their own little boys. So one of the things he proposes is boys need to get registered with the college, Start school a year later. And that way there's more. Matt, you did that.

I did that. And look what happened, see? Look how smart you are. I was undiagnosed ADHD so I got held back, but it was actually for the best. Yeah, well, that's amazing. I was undiagnosed ADHD too, and I was just told like figure it out, right?

Which is good. But I was in that last generation before they took recess away, before they took athletics away, before they took all that stuff away, art away, and they've taken all these outlets away that are just certain brains and they've said you will memorize these facts and you will spit them out on a test and we will use that metric to tell you how smart you are and we just burned a crew to the ground. And so I think realistically for most of us, use some of the old language, just change what it means. I still think it's important for men to provide and protect, but in those households, maybe providing isn't a dollar

amount, maybe providing is support around the house, maybe providing is a listening ear and emotional stability. And if you don't have that skillset, if you got a job as a roofer and you didn't know how to do that, nobody would be like, Oh my, they'd be like, all right, cool. Here's how you do it. And so having teaching little boys how to provide the things that are needed in the household, how to protect that used to be huge muscles. And dude, I trained with MMA teams. I get it. My dad was a cop and I've grown up around

guns. Like I know I'm a Texan for God's sake. And protection in my house right now is, can I protect my wife's spirit and her heart and her dreams? Can I protect her emotional, instead of just coming back at her with one of my psychology answers, can I just shut up and listen? Because by the way, she's smarter than me, right? Protection and provide looks different now. It's a skillset issue. Instead of we make it this big character issue, dude, it's a skills set issue. Let's teach little boys how to listen, how to be quiet and don't

tell them that they're bad when they don't want to go run around. Right? And so it's, it's to me, I think you're actually really close to age two, age three, age four. When boys start getting the message, Oh, something's something wrong with me, versus no, you're fantastic, you're loved, and there's a context for that. In this environment, we sit still, and then we get to go run, right? It's both hands. I feel like a lot of it also boils down

to emotional intelligence. That's it. I know that's such a big question, but with raising kids, how do we raise, specifically boys that are emotionally intelligent? What does that start with? You want the Instagram answer or like the truthful answer? I want the truth.

Okay, so I'll tell you this small story. The coolest part about going back to grad school after I was already like done with school and a professional was I had to do an internship again. So I'm the dean of students at a law school and I'm also a graduate student in counseling. So I had to do another internship and I worked under a psychologist at a law school, and I'm also a graduate student in counseling. So I had to go do another internship. And I worked under a psychologist, Dr. Gomez,

he's a savant, he's just, he's 100, you know, you're around people that are like a thousand times smarter than you, and you're like, oh man, your brain's faster than mine. It's awesome, right? But we were working with really, like, really traumatized kids. And my son was really young.

And so I was asking these veiled parenting questions all the time like I was asking about the kids we were working with but I really want to know like about my kid yeah and we were working with a young kid who was saying some really wild stuff wild stuff about women I couldn't even I couldn't the mat like I couldn't wrap my head around what this kid was saying and how cute and young he was too and we were going from one room to the next and I asked Dr. Gomez, hey, what are you supposed to say to a little boy so he grows up respecting women?

And he knew exactly what I was asking a parenting question and he just said this. He said, mind you, say whatever you want. Kids don't listen to you. And I was like, what? And he goes, they don't listen to you, they watch you. And I was like, oh, that sucks. He's like, you can tell your kids whatever you want,

but if you want to teach a little boy how to respect women, respect his mother, respect your sister. When that woman who's all by herself in the restaurant because two of the other people didn't show up and your food's an hour late, let your kids see that and let y'all feel how hungry you are and then point out how hard she's working

and then let's triple her tip, let your kids see that. That teaches them how to respect women. So to answer your question, you wanna teach your kids emotional intelligence, become emotionally intelligent, work really hard on where I've got soft spots and emotional intelligence. I might get super angry, somebody might withdraw,

somebody might snap or hold somebody in content, like think they're better than let's work on those things. Cause our kids are just going to repeat their sponges. They're just going to repeat the world that they inhabit. And that's a tough, scary thing. Cause I want to just have somebody teacher, teach them this thing. It's great, but they come home and the world is what the world they come home to. No, I think that's really, that's spot on. It's funny how it all comes down to the simple sayings

that we all know, like actions speak louder than words. Always do behaviors of language, man. What are you teaching your kid every day? And I've been wrestling with this idea of, man, I just like, I want the best for my kids. I wanna be this like superhero macho man that they can look up to and all this. And it's like, you know, it's my ego

that wants to do all these big things. Really the best thing I think I can do for my kids is to live the life that I want them to live. Like if I have all these expectations for them, I should be doing that myself. And if I quickly find out that my expectations for them are wrong, then I should pivot and change and be the example of what I hope for them to become.

So can I add something to that? Yeah. There's a layer beneath that, I think. And I think especially men get caught up in the, I want to show them what hard work looks like, I want to show them what discipline looks like, and all that stuff's good, but what does their house feel like? And if they always see dad reading a book, or always see dad scrolling, or they always see dad yelling at the TV, and the house feels electric, then they're gonna grow up knowing

those things were more important than me. And so they'll end up being a reverse. So what's important for me is my son to see how hard I work so that I can come home to be fully present. And I want him to know, here's why we do this. This is what this feels like when done right. And this is what this feels like when done wrong. When dad's trying to prove himself

because dad's feeling insecure. And when dad's trying to like get on the top of some list of somewhere that's totally divorced from reality and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I need someone else's approval to make me feel better, he's gonna say, I don't want, I don't, doesn't feel right, I don't want that. When I say, dude, we work this hard,

just the other day, we were on a trip, like out of the country with, no, it was in the country, it was in the Caribbean, right, with Dave Ramsey and his wife, but my kids were out with us too, and we were on a beach, and they were hugging, like, well Dave Ramsey and his wife, but my kids were out with us too. We were on a beach and they were hugging, well they, big stingrays. It was a bananas trip, silly.

And I had my son was with me and he was having the time of his life, we were fishing, having fun, but I pointed over to Dave, who was just sitting there smiling, watching it all. And there were several people out there, and I said, this is why you work so hard so you can be this generous so that kids like you guys get to go hug stingrays. Never forget what that smile looks like. That's why we work so hard. So we can be this generous. And it's connecting those dots. You work really

hard so that you can tip insanely, right? So when that waiter, like, Hey, Hank, you want to have some fun at Christmas? Let's tip this guy at Waffle House $500. And be like, what? Like, this will change his whole month. Let's change, let's tip him $500. Okay, dad. All right, go hand it to him. And that guy comes running out in the parking lot, right? And picks my son up, picks me up. Like, that's how you encode those things in your kids. Man, you're making me really think here, John. I wanna circle back to something you said earlier because it really stood out to me

and it's something that I feel like I struggle with sometimes is when you said, we're talking about the season post babies, maybe fresh, maybe even they're older, like your children. But like getting away for a weekend and like you said no diapers, away for a weekend and like, you said no diapers, none of the distractions of like, I shouldn't say distractions, but like. They're total distractions.

Okay, distractions. Then I feel. It's the mom guilt industrial complex. That's what's coming. And I'm like, oh, it's like so, it feels guilty to get away. It feels like, oh man, like that's maybe showing them, like you're saying like, when I'm yelling at the TV, it's saying that's more important to me or when I'm looking at my phone, that's maybe showing them, like you're saying, when I'm yelling at the TV, it's saying that's more important to me,

or when I'm looking at my phone, that's more important to me. If I leave my kids, wait, maybe that's the whole point though. Okay, so I think it's dumping it all into one bucket. Yeah. I need my kids to know there will never be a screen more important than you, right? There will never be anything more important than you except one person.

Your mom. I picked her. I got stuck with you guys. I picked her. And so I don't ever want my kids to feel like, and I think this is a challenge especially for moms, that the weight of your performance as a modern woman rests on the life your kids live. How they perform, how they do, how they look. as a modern woman rest on the life your kids live, right? How they perform, how they do, how they look, how they,

like everything rests on that. And I think we're crushing kids under the weight of our expectations of them to prop us up, or they're our report card, our living, breathing report card. And so what I always wanna remind myself is my kids don't get a vote. And if me and their mom are not good

If we're not locked in step then that is the that's the worst thing for them like outside of food and security stuff like that Right, but they need to make sure their mom and dad are locked up So since they were very little when I walk in the door the first person I make a beeline to is my wife I need them to know she's the most important thing in my life and that sounds crazy right now like even saying it's like that's not what that's supposed to be like. I need them to know my entire being does not rest on you guys because y'all can't carry my weight. She can. She signed up for it. Y'all can't and then when they see us that we're good can't. And then when they see us that we're good, then whew. And so I love telling my kids, well now my son's older and he's grossed out by it, but like, no, me and your mom are going away

and it's going to be awesome. And y'all can't be there. And it's, I love that. I love that they know that and it gives them peace. Like, okay,'s well-being doesn't rest on me. Thank you to Bobby for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Something I have learned from being a parent to two children now is that no two kids are the same and I've really thought that maybe our breastfeeding journeys at least would be the same but no. Our first we had a fairly smooth journey for the full 12 months we never needed formula, but with our second at around nine months,

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Visit www.hibobby.com for more details. That's h-i-b-o-b-b-i-e.com. I always am heartbroken when I talk to a parent, especially usually mothers who are like, Oh no, my daughter, my 16 year old, she's my best friend. I always think, God help that 16 year old because they can't carry the weight of an adult friendship. It's a lot of pressure for a kid. It's too much pressure.

Yeah. And most of us grew up in homes where we heard things like, if you do that, your dad's going to get mad. Or if you do that, your mom, you know, your mom gets it. And what that tells kids is it's your responsibility to emotionally regulate the adults in this house. No kid can carry that. And so I tell my kids all the time,

y'all don't have the power to make me mad. You don't, I don't outsource that to y'all. You can frustrate me, but I really careful with my language and I tell my son or my daughters, my son's getting older now But I'm choosing to be frustrated right now. I'm choosing this I'm choosing to be angry right now But don't ever want her to think she's got the power to control me in my emotions. That's my job I'm the adult and it's separating from that all I have to say is the first few times you go on vacations without your kids

Yeah, you feel super guilty. I cried in the airport Yeah, every time and so and and and that's not weird, you're not broken, it's just something wrong with you, and then you feel that and then you go do the next right thing, which is go have a great weekend. Yeah. It's both things. I always warm up to it, don't I? Yeah, no, you always do. Yeah, we recently took a trip to London and the first day Abby felt so guilty, but you did eventually warm up to it. Yeah. But I mean, you've come a long way though. I remember the first day that we went on a date after having our first child, we were going to be away for an hour. We went to IHOP five minutes away. I was like crying my pain. But I mean, I know this now. That was probably postpartum related.

I was a little thrown off, but I understand now. I'm a little, I'm this now. At the time. That was probably postpartum related. I don't think that was the same thing. I was a little thrown off, but I understand now that. A little. Bro, I was like, a little. I'm like, is this the rest of our lives? No, that's what I thought. I was like, you think you're scared? I'm scared I'm gonna be this way forever. Right, right, right, right, yeah, yeah.

I wish somebody would have told me in the midst of the chaos of two under two and just, yeah, with everything with that, just, hey, this is a temporary thing. It's winter and it's cold, put on a jacket. It's just cold, it sucks. Exactly. And I think it was naive of me to assume in that moment, this is forever. Forever, that's right.

But yeah, like you said, it's like the seasons of life. It's cold, man. The sun's coming back out, spring's coming, but right now it's cold. I love the advice you gave about how parents should behave in front of their children. It made me think about arguments and should behave in front of their children. It made me think about Arguments and disagreements in front of children. What are your thoughts on having a disagreement in front of the kids?

Please God start having disagreements in front of your kids. Yes, not unregulated looney-tunes screaming matches, right? The the prevailing wisdom when I was a little kid and this is like the cultural cultural air everybody breathed, was if you fight in front of the kids, you're gonna scare them. Don't do that. Go have your disagreements in the bedroom and come out. And what it did was it robbed kids, just look at our political discourse now. My generation has shown up.

If we disagree on something, oh, I have to hate you. It's over. And what we did was we robbed a generation of kids of seeing their parents disagree and still be on the same team And so it's like oh no, we totally disagree. You totally blew that situation. You were ugly to me or rude to me. Whatever I'm mad at you. I'm frustrated you whatever we still love each other We're not going anywhere and now young couples are having their first big blowout fight after they're married and they're like well I guess this is over or they go to a friend who's like, like we were talking about earlier, like, well, you

just need to leave him. Like, no, we had a fight. We had a fight. It's all relationships. All of them have disagreements, especially the ones that people care about. Right. And so it's important for kids to see disagreements and it's important for kids to see parents frustrated with each other.

And it's important to see people, parents frustrated with each other and it's important to see people parents people who love each other repair that relationship and come back together and sit at the same table and have dinner together and All that is important And it's scary and it's frustrating I actually have a friend who she has a two-year-old too, and she's like her daughter will be like don't fight Like she'll say stuff like that and then then her husband will say, no, honey, it's OK. Mom and dad just care about each other a lot. That's a great answer for a two-year-old.

We love each other so much. And she can't put the towels away. That's a thing, right? OK, so you all have had this experience. I have a rule. It's a personal rule. You kind of know, especially when you're doing TV media, you kind of know what's coming.

So I have a rule. If I get asked a question that I didn't anticipate, I'm just going to go with my gut. And that makes everybody around me nervous, but it's like, I don't want to sit there and spin and give some silly answer. I'm just going to go with my gut answer. During the COVID somebody asked, like I was totally unexpected and it was on a news hit and they were like so do you think something like with this and with this is gonna cause all this damage and I just wasn't expecting it so I just answered from my gut and I said I think what's really hurting kids right kids are resilient they're amazing

resilient what's hurting kids right now is they are trapped in homes of completely unregulated adults who are angry and terrified and they don't know how to say those words out loud. So the kids think it's their fault and they're trying to solve it either by getting small, getting really big, trying to sing and dance for mommy and daddy who are just glued to these screens and enraged and screaming and yelling at politics and kids can't escape. And so I think the greatest gift you can give your kids is emotional regulation, right figure out what's going on inside your chest and what's really going on and

Yeah, let your kids see disagreements man. That's so good. Mm-hmm I feel like in a way that's like it's such a high calling to be like be emotionally regulated But also it does take a lot of the pressure off of like, okay, what style of parenting am I gonna choose? What, how do I approach discipline? Like that can be really, like I sometimes feel the pressure to like name a type or like, you know, I need a formula for this. All of that gives me just like hemorrhoids. It just kills me, dude.

It just kills me. Like work hard to shift your default setting to, they're still on my team. And so if this hurts, I'm gonna assume you didn't try to hurt me, versus always looking for places where people are trying to hurt you, right? It's just a default setting, and then when somebody hurts you, I'll say it on this podcast, so I do a lot

of public speaking, and the scariest thing in the world to me, I have a reverence for stand-up comedians, a total reverence. I think they're like modern prophets. They're the last artists that there's no filter between them and an audience, right? Everything else gets edited and cut up and glossed over and whatever. It's just you're on a stage and it's live. And so I have a comedy club writer on the corner from my house and I go all the time and I become friends with those guys. Like I love it.

And so I was like, I'm gonna, I wanna do one. Like I wanna do a set by myself. So I put up on Instagram and it sold out. My buddy, George Campbell, we did it and it sold out right away. I was like, oh gosh. And then they put up a second show, it sold out right away. I was like, oh no, this is happening.

And so I worked really hard, like to try to come up with some funny stuff. And I'm not just saying like I would tell you off a bomb it went good. Oh it did. It went good and I have never been more nervous backstage. They were laughing at me. They're like who is this guy because I'm never never nervous. I was so puckered up y'all. I may go to the bathroom again like in 2026. I was so puckered up and I was like oh gosh oh gosh gosh. It happened. It was awesome. It went great. It went way better than I thought. Did your wife go? She went.

I was going to say that would be my worst fear is more than me going to stand up and be attending mass stand up because that's vulnerable. Yeah. Okay so the only thing more vulnerable than you being on the stage is your partner being out in the audience and being like, this is tanking. It didn't. It went great. That's amazing. Did you allow people to have their phones in the audience?

No phones. No phones. Because those are the jokes. These are all the things I can't, I try to pretend that my parents may watch my show. And so I try to keep it a certain, like, I don't know. And so those were the jokes that like, I think are real funny. And so no, those are no, and in most comedy clubs, it's still know. And so those were the jokes that I think are real funny. And so no, and in most comedy clubs it's still sacred, so no phones, like this is gonna be humans with humans.

Which I- Do they take your phone at the door? How does that work? Oh, they'll put it in a little, in a pouch, and they'll lock it up. How do they know that no one's actually sneaking one in? They don't, but it's kind of like, it's an honor system, but you have a comedian

that's worked for a year to get 60 minutes, and somebody can video and put on YouTube and their whole year of their life is gone, right? And so people are pretty careful and there's also just a high respect. That's scary to get up there, right? Oh yeah. She, we get done and it went a thousand times better

than both of us thought. She text me, that was great. How did that make you feel? I was so sad. I was like, and not that there was just the text is when I got home and I got home and she's like, all right, tomorrow, can you make sure that you get Hank to school? He's got to go early when I was like, yeah, cool. And she's like, all right, I'm so sleepy. I'm going to go to bed and I'll see you in the morning. Love you. And I was like, okay, we I'm so sleepy. I'm gonna go to bed and I'll see you in the morning.

Love you. And I was like, okay, but we're not gonna talk about how awesome that just was. And so I, again, this is on me, I sat on it and I started blaming her for my feelings, which she has no, right? And so it was a few days later and I was like, hey, you never told me what that was like, Hey, you never like told me like

how what that was like. And she responded this way, your first 17 minutes were the best I've ever seen you, which I of course heard. What about the other 36 minutes? And, but anyway, because it ended with her. I mean, as we got into the middle of it, John, I texted you from the audience. I pulled my phone out. In her head, she's a rule follower. I broke the rules to immediately tell you how great this was. This was awesome.

And you get really sensitive, me, so I didn't wanna talk about it that night. So both of us would just pass each other the night. She was trying to say, I love this and I saw it. And I didn't need, I wanted her to tell me it in a different way, right? And so we have to have that conversation and we loop back and my son the next morning, she's like,

Mom said that was awful. And I said, I told you and he's like, she didn't say that. I didn't hear that part, I just heard, I knew she didn't like it, but it's just me being sensitive, right? And so now when she came again recently to another night, we did another one, and she came and grabbed my face and she's like, you did awesome, and I was like, okay.

Right, but it did kind of feel good. So we've been married 27 years, we're still figuring out, oh, that's a new vulnerability for you, okay, we're gonna reimagine what love looks like and what you want to, how I can show up for you right in this moment. So anyway, we're still figuring it out. That's interesting.

How do you overcome challenges in your own marriage when you have this very high standard to live up to giving advice online? Do you ever feel? I feel no pressure on that. You don't feel pressure, you don't. Cause I'm pretty open that I'm the furthest from perfect there is. The pressure I feel is to never paint a picture

that's unattainable. And I think that's the problem with like the Instagram world is just a highlight reel. And that's just not how my life is, right? And so I'm trying to be pretty open with, hey, I blew this call, I'm having that dude back back and I want you to hear what an apology looks like I heard a guy that came to me in need and I didn't do a good job I left my own baggage with a call like impact how I talked to him and that wasn't cool so

here's what this looks like and I'm trying to be pretty open dude the other day me I do this for a living you know what what I said? I said this to my wife. She was talking about something and I said this. I said, that sounds exactly like your mother. And right as I said it, it went, I was like, no. Like, who says that? And by the way, my mother-in-law is incredible. And she, my wife just literally got up and started walking. I go, and of course I blamed her.

She's like, I recorded you. That's going on the internet. I said, you can't be, I was like, you're not mad, are you? And she said, I won't be in a little while. And I was like, are you, but anyway, that was me. So the next day on the show, I was like, hey, just so everybody knows, I said this last night. So I guess the picture I wanna paint is, I don't have any pressure to,

if this had happened when I was 30 years old or 26, like you got, I would have already nuked it. Because I would have felt a need to make this look a certain way. And the only thing I want to put out into the world is nobody's perfect and here's what it looks like to say you're sorry. Here's what it looks like to say, I hear you and I think this guy's pretty abusive. Right? It's like here's how to tell somebody the truth in a loving way. What advice do you give people when a

married couple encounters an issue where they have a fundamental difference and there's no right or wrong answer? For instance, deciding on how many kids to have. None versus some is different than two or four. Two or four is often a, I have a picture of what I think my life since I was a kid, I have a picture whenever I think of being 40, there's just four kids running around. It's like a picture that's in your head. And who knows where it came from?

It could've come from a TV show, it could've come from your aunt's house. Who knows where it came from? But those pictures, often you can sit down and say, okay, I've got a picture in my head of what our life looks like. You've got a picture in your head. Let's talk about those pictures

and what those pictures mean. Because often our brains will start solving for pictures that we never discuss. And so if you have a picture of the guy you're gonna marry, but then you marry that guy, the engine may always still be looking for that other guy, but you love the person you're with. And so it's recalibrating your picture.

Like, oh, I thought this is what love looked like, but you, right? So there's a shift there. Zero kids, like I don't want any kids, I want this is what love looked like, but you, right? So there's a shift there. Zero kids, like I don't want any kids, two, I want two or three kids. That's a fundamental core. Got to have that conversation before you're married. Because that's one of those things, like I love you and I don't want to build a life with you. I don't want to co-create a world together because in the world I want to co-create, it's got little kids in it.

Two, four, we'll negotiate that. But that to me is a core fundamental difference. That's like somebody, before you get married, I will never walk into a church. I will never go into a church. My faith is incredibly important to me. I love you. You're hilarious. I'm attracted to you.

You're a great kisser, like all these things. This is such an important thing to me that I don't want to co-create a world that is or is not inhabited by faith, right? Yeah. And so I think you make those hard, hard calls. And I think that's another core cultural challenge that, man, we avoid reality in our culture in a pretty staggering way. We've been able to work around it and hack our way around reality so much that now we think the rule, just basic rules don't apply. Like the idea of living on less than you make, the fact that you have to argue

about that is bananas. There's just a math problem. It sounds like you work with Dave Ramsey or something. Exactly, I mean, but I mean, like, occasionally I'll look at him and I'll be like, you realize what you have built on telling people to earn less than they make? And he'll look at me and be like, do you realize how successful you've come telling people don't cheat on your spell?

Like, I mean, but it's like, that's where we are. If you have a marriage problem, you know what may solve it? Sleeping around, let's sleep with other people. Like, what would be, have consensual nominal, you know what may solve it? Sleeping around, let's sleep with other people. Like what would be have consensual nomin- you know what's going to solve y'all's conversations? Y'all should just hook up with other people. That will help. Right? It's like, what? Where have we just gotten sideways? And there's a reality to math, right? If you spend more than you make, eventually that bill comes due. And they'll take a pound of flesh for it, right? You will pay that in some shape or fashion at some point. And so it's just one of those reality things. You can say I love

everything about this person but I want to have kids and this person has been very clear I will not have kids. I love your answer. It's reality. It's a scary, hard, heartbreaking reality. I think you illustrated that perfectly. The only problem is there are situations where people change in marriage. That's right, that's right. Everyone's constantly changing. I think anyone that's been with their partner,

I mean, you've been married almost a quarter of a century. Yeah, that's my favorite Estelle Perot quote of all time. We gotta give it up for that. That's incredible. You've probably seen- My wife's pretty awesome. But there's that Estelle Pirocco, it's my favorite one of, she's a quote machine,

but it's my favorite. And it is that most adults have three or four great loves in their adult lifetime. And if you work really hard, it can be with the same person. And that I love. I am a radically different person than the idiotic 24 year old my wife married.

And like I'm four, five, or six iterations away from that guy. And so when you stop trying to hang on to who you married, and you start practicing and finding adventure and falling in love with the person your spouse is becoming, dude, what a great life you have together, right? I love that. It's an awesome adventure.

But to answer your question, here's where I think people get stuck I had somebody call my show the other day it was incredible 65 years old and her husband was struggling with ED with erectile dysfunction and he wouldn't go to the doctor and she said I mean it was this long tyranny I told him we're doing this three days a week and I was like dude there are 25 year olds that aren't pulling off three days a week. So congratulations to you. Like it was awesome. It was awesome. But she was like, I gave this ultimatum and this one and this one, and he won't go to the doctor. And he won't. And he won't. He won't.

I said, so what are you going to do? And she said, I'm not leaving him. And that to me was the magic moment. Okay. So you've made this choice. I will not leave him So every second you're angry with him is a choice for you to be miserable Because you close the exit door you're here What does finding laughter and joy and intimacy in other ways other than this one way? Because you've backed yourself into a corner. And so I think the question is going back to that reality baseline. We had these plans to have three kids. It was going to be so amazing.

We're two years in and my husband just dropped a bomb. I'm not having kids. I refuse. Okay. Question number one, are you going to leave? Are you going to go? Are you going to divorce your husband and walk out the door and live with the life after that? Because if you are, cool, I'll walk with you through that. I may not advise it, or I'll walk with you. We'll go that way. If you're not, if you're in this,

then let's start having conversations about, okay, how do we grieve? How to be really sad? How do we be heartbroken with somebody you love, but also just absolutely pull the rug out from under you. Like let's go through that route. Both of those are reality. What most people like to do is just stay in their frustration or their misery and blame. Blame feels so powerful. Yeah. Blame feels so it because it gives you permission to to not do anything because it's it's your fault. You're fault. You're fault. Okay you've got agency. You're gonna leave Because it's your fault and your fault your fault. Okay, you've got agency you're gonna leave and Let's have that hard conversation and if no, okay You're married to somebody that didn't tell you the truth or they changed they grew up and changed and you don't like how they grew up And changed and by the way, they changed this way they may change again, right?

And so you begin to start having a conversation based with two feet on the ground Not somebody jumping up and down. Does that make sense? That totally makes sense. But that's a scary place to go to, like, okay, what are you gonna do next? And of all the people I've worked with, like I sat with, working in university, like I sat with all these kids on the margins,

all the kids that were kicked out of their houses because of how they loved, I mean it was, it was heartbreaking. And I've, my job for 20 years was to tell parents that your kid has passed away, your kid is in the ER and you need to get on a plane right now and get here. Or your four year old child just passed away and in that room of like, that was my career. And every, no matter what hard conversation I've had with somebody, we always land on the same question. What are you going to do now? What are you going to do next? what hard conversation I've had with somebody, we always land on the same question.

What are you gonna do now? What are you gonna do next? And I think that question is so scary that most people wanna stay here. Or they honestly don't know, I don't know what to do next. And that's where they end up, we're so lonely as a culture, they call some stranger on a YouTube channel,

like, can you help? Because I don't know how anyone else us to call you know I mean that's so good because we actually met in the eighth grade and we've really only been with each other we've seen each other change a lot we've seen a lot of I'm so old. What is that? It's the greatest show ever of all time. Do you guys know what Dawson's Creek is? I don't want to wait. Y'all don't? Dawson's Creek? Oh my gosh. Listen, I'm going to look at the YouTube comments on this one.

Let them have, how are you not Dawson's Creek? Never heard of Dawson's Creek. Start bingeing tonight. Okay. Dawson's Creek, okay, okay. Joey and Pacey? They're just childhood, they were childhood sweethearts. How old are y'all?

Okay, we're 26. Y'all are the worst. I feel like I'm a thousand years old. I'm so old. I'm so old. I'm so old. I'm so old. I'm so old. Not really there's childhood. They were childhood sweethearts. Yeah, y'all Okay Okay, I'm 28. We're 26. Yeah, yeah worst. I feel like I'm a thousand years old Well, we've only been literally with we literally even kissed each other. Okay, amazing. So it's kind of okay Do you have is that feel weird? That awesome or is that like what I miss out on?

Or both can I be honest? I feel like I feel like 95% of the time, I'm like, it's amazing. Like it's so, it feels so safe. But then there's like the 5% of the time, I'm like, when I meet other people that like partied or like had a lot of like rendezvous, I'm like, was that more fun for them? We joke that way because we've had kids so young, we've joked that once our kids are out of the house

in our 40s, we're gonna start going to Vegas. Oh yeah. Going like, we're gonna start going to Vegas Four-year-old just like clubbing I feel like that thought was really really scary until we both shared it with each other Uh-huh, and we're like, okay now I feel like it feels great and amazing Something that has bonded us. I think more than anything is just having those honest conversations together That's it and no judgment and just hearing truly like, Oh my gosh, we've had like, you know why that is? Cause you don't have to make eye contact. You can both look forward.

What's amazing. And it's funny. Yeah. You can go for walks too. I always tell people to go for walks or go for a drive because you can be next to each other, but you don't have to, there's an intensity there. I thought it's cause you couldn't leave. Like you're stuck. We've had some of our best conversations on car rides and it it's funny me joking about going to Vegas in our 40s because we were actually on a drive to Vegas when we had probably one of the most vulnerable conversations in our marriage,

just like completely sharing like every single thought you can imagine. What is the deepest, darkest thought you've ever had? Just us just like going back and forth. And it was just like the coolest thing ever to just no shame, like say I love you and I accept you just as you are. Okay if you're one of their family members just turn away right now. How long were y'all in the hood did it take before y'all got a hotel? It was on. It was on. It was on right? Yeah it was on, right? Yeah, it was on. Because those are the most erotic, fun, playful, deep, right? Those are the moments, right?

When you're like, oh, now I really know you and I really see you. It's on, right? Those are awesome. And I think people walk around with their secrets and they walk around with their stories. I remember reading a research study. I won't embarrass her on this, but I was in bed and I started laughing. I had a stack of nerd journal papers I was reading. My wife was reading something and I started to laugh. I chuckled. I was like, yeah right. And it was

something about like a research study on sex and like 90% of women would, I was like okay. And my wife's like, what is that? And I was like, and I read it to her and she goes, oh yeah for sure. And I was like, what? I've known you for 25 years. And she's like, oh, for sure. And it was about some fan, like women, and I was like, how am I not knowing this? And she- Now I'm so curious, what is this fancy?

I don't wanna put my wife on blast. Oh, okay, okay. But here's the thing, it ended up one of the deepest, greatest conversations, and she's like, well, what else about you? And she's like, well what else about you? And I was like, well I'll tell you. I don't know if we're talking that way. And it literally was one of those on a dime.

Like my marriage was this way and now it's this way. Well it makes you feel like a human person. A human being. It's so freeing. The shame is gone. The I'm a bad person or a good spouse would never have this thought or would never have this fear or and now it's all out there.

Yeah, because I feel like there's a part of you that's like if you knew all of me, you might not still love me. That to me is the, that's the human question. Do you see me, all of me and do you still love me? And if you're married, the question beneath that is, are you gonna leave? Wow.

And I don't think, the spoiler alert, that's a thing we do at every one of the marriage conferences, like look to your partner and say, only if you mean it, I will never leave. And there's something rooting in that question that I did not understand. I said that once, kind of flippantly once,

and that room got so quiet. It was a room of a thousand plus people. It got so quiet. I was like, you a thousand plus people. It got so quiet. I was like, you all look to each other right now and say I'm never gonna leave if you mean it. And people were bursting into tears. I didn't realize how deep that was and I went home to my wife and I was like,

hey, I'm never gonna leave. And she's like, what? It was like that Goodwill Hunting. I was like, I'm never gonna leave. Don't embarrass me with my friends, but like, I'm never gonna leave. Don't embarrass me with my friends, but like, I'm never gonna, I was my wife. And I was like, oh my gosh, and I needed to hear it too. Except I knew she wouldn't get to leave

because she's like, I'm not, if I die, and she's like, I'm not remarrying again, I'm good. I've had my, I'm gonna move to the woods with my cats, so I'm good, but like, it was this sense of how many of us walk around all day, if they really knew me, they're out. And there's something really rooted about saying, okay, this is it, this is all, all of it. And now I have permission to, if I have weird thoughts

or weird dreams, or this is a super successful podcast, and maybe in a few years, like, I'm starting to get a sense I don't wanna do this anymore. And now we've built roadmaps so that if we need to have that conversation we can or you spoke to our boys in a way that makes me uncomfortable you'll have established a highway system that now y'all can get on that road together and have that conversation like it's set a map for your entire marriage which is amazing. That's beautiful. Man when you said that at that conference were there, were there any couples

that got up and left because they were too afraid to commit right there? No, because I was pretty laid on the peer pressure pretty big. I'm sure there was some people that said it, they didn't mean it, but it shocked me. And yeah, the more I've asked, like Arthur Brooks and my buddies, and they're like, yeah, that's the core human question, right? That's the question under the question, are you gonna leave? When you fully know me, are you gonna leave? And just telling somebody, no, I'm never gonna go.

Because for all human history, you couldn't just go, and now we can. And there's no fault divorce, and you can go make a living and I'll make it. Like you can now, and so there's a weight to, I'm never gonna go. That's powerful. That is powerful. Have you ever said that to each other? I think we have. You're like. Have we said that? Our wedding vows? At the altar? I guess we did. I guess we did.

I've never really come to that in our everyday life. No, that's a good one. That's funny. She's like I'm not saying. Oh, he knows I'm never leaving. I'm literally like, Matt, you, Dad, I'm just, me and the kids and the books, like, we got, we're set. We'll get our routine going. What's the thing that's the hardest being a public married couple with two little kids? You said it best when you mentioned the whole thing of, oh, I'll never talk about stuff in real time, especially like with your kids, especially, you're like, I'm not gonna talk about stuff in real time.

And when, yeah, I think when your marriage is public, it's like, puts a lot of pressure on you. It puts a lot of pressure on just like everything. Well, don't blow this, man. I don't feel pressure, honestly, because I don't read anything. So I'm just like living my life. Gotcha But Matt feels pressure

I feel like oh your identity is tied up in this because it's like such a big accomplishment That I just kind of wrote the coattails of so there's like a lot of pressure on him whenever I was about to leave the university system to take this job and Like my wife and I are a last like conversation together. She said, um, if you do this and you create an avatar, like this guy, right? Like this person, this public persona said, if you do that, that will eventually run out. Nobody can keep that up forever. And I was like, I'm going to be fully me. And like, I said all the dumb Instagram words and she said okay but if you're

fully you she said you're weird like you go to Sunday school but you also I've seen Pantera 10 times and you have tons of tattoos and you're also really compassionate and you're a big loud guy but you also get real quiet she was your weird guy and she said if you were fully authentic and this doesn't work you're're going to have to go to bed at night. And this was her quote, knowing America doesn't like you. And she goes, I do, I always will. And the kids do. And your friends do. You've had friends for like 30 and 40 years. You've had these same friends. We all love you, but you'll have to go to bed knowing they didn't. And I was like, oh gosh, like that was a wait. But it also, when we said, when I said I'm in on,

like I'm gonna quit my job and try to do this media thing, it was really freeing. Because it was like, okay, if they don't like me, I'm still a good guy and it was a total, I was gonna say, I couldn't have done this at 30 because I still would have been so hanging on to, no, I'll make them like me. And now I feel freedom to,

the best way for people to like you is for them to know you. Dr. John Delaney, thank you so, so much for coming on the show. I know you have so many incredible projects you're working on. I know you've authored many books. Like what's in the works for you right now

that you're excited to talk about? Nothing. Oh, there's nothing? No, man, just like loving you guys. That's awesome. No, I mean, I still do my show. It comes out three times a week. I co-host the Ramsey Show with Dave.

Working on a few bigger projects. We've got a relationships app that will help people get off the phone and back to each other, which is cool. I love that. And it's more actions instead of talking. It's more how can we act our way back together instead of fight our way or disconnect further.

And so I'm very excited about that. Is there a release date for the app? I think like June or July. Like I think in a few months. Oh wow, that's really soon. Okay, well thank you for coming on the show. Y'all are awesome. Thank you.

I'll clap you guys for your hospitality. Thank you. Oh thank you. Y'all aren't from Texas or Southern, but y'all are very hospitable. Thank you. Very lovely, it's awesome. Thank you.

That means a lot coming from you. You're doing the Southwestern United States very well. It's awesome.