The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Elizabeth Smart: Kidnapped at 14 & held captive for 9 months

Episode Date: April 8, 2026

TRIGGER WARNING This episode contains detailed discussions/depictions of sexual assault and rape involving minors. We understand this material is deeply disturbing and can be triggering for survivors. Please prioritize your well-being. This episode is sponsored by Shopify, Ladder, and Cash App. Shopify: Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial today at https://shopify.com/unplanned Ladder: If you have an iPhone, go to https://ladder.fit/unplanned to take a quick quiz and get a free 7-day trial with no credit card required, plus $10 off your first month if you join. Cash App: Download Cash App Today: https://capl.onelink.me/vFut/kssum24w #CashAppPod. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App’s bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. See terms and conditions at https://cash.app/legal/us/en-us/card-agreement. Cash App Green, overdraft coverage, borrow, cash back offers and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit http://cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures. In today’s episode, we’re joined by Elizabeth Smart — and her story is one of both unimaginable hardship and incredible hope. After being kidnapped at 14 and held captive for nine months, Elizabeth has gone on to build a beautiful life — as a wife, a mother, and a powerful advocate for survivors. We talk about what healing has looked like for her, how she learned to move forward after trauma, and what it’s been like to find love and create a family of her own. We also dive into what fuels her advocacy, the impact she hopes to make, and her perspective on forgiveness. Elizabeth's IG: Elizabeth_Smart_Official https://www.elizabethsmartfoundation.org/ If you or someone you know has experienced sexual assault, support is available and healing is possible. You can reach the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or connect online at rainn.org. Or call 911. Reporting can save a life. Follow The Unplanned Podcast: https://www.instagram.com/unplanned__podcast/ https://www.tiktok.com/@unplanned_podcast Listen to the pod on Spotify / Apple Podcasts: https://open.spotify.com/show/1ToDA4ufQuWuEgMq07zN6t https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-unplanned-podcast/id1669604504 Follow Matt & Abby: Abby's Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/abbyelizabethoward/ Matt's Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/_matt_howard_/ TikTok | https://www.tiktok.com/@matt_and_abby Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/mattandabb YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/@MattandAbby Chapters: 00:36 - Choosing to share my story 04:51 - The night of the kidnapping 09:20 - what kept me going 12:17 - changing mentality around victims 20:06 - How to talk to your kids 26:31 - Accusing my family 28:22 - Victims and the justice system 37:53 - Forgiveness 40:28 - Finding out my captor was released 45:35 - Why I didn't run 51:51 - Trauma responses 55:02 - What the documentary left out 59:06 - Counting the days 01:02:02 - Concern of pregnancy 01:04:01 - Telling my story to my children 01:09:41 - Intimacy after sexual trauma 01:16:53 - Clinging to my childhood 01:20:57 - Supporting survivors through my foundation Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You were so many times. Was there ever just a point where you just like, I'm just gonna lay back and enjoy it? Elizabeth Smart. Elizabeth Smart. Brian David Mitchell broke into their home and kidnapped Elizabeth. What were the words that you heard that woke you up?

I have a knife at your neck. Don't make a sound. Get up and come with me. Smart says she was repeatedly each day during her ordeal. Was there ever a concern of pregnancy? Of course. I'm a very late bloomer. You started while you were captain.

The man is Brian David Mitchell. claims to hear the voice of God. Is it worth surviving for everyone to look at me differently? Is it worth surviving if nobody is ever going to love me or want to be with me? How does the teaching in the church need a change? I really don't care what your beliefs are. You have to teach the other side. Did you forgive your captors?

I think I probably have my own definition of forgiveness. Trigger warning. This episode contains detailed discussions and depictions of sexual assault and involving minors. We understand this material is deeply disturbing and can be triggering for survivors. Please prioritize your well-being. If you or someone you know has experienced sexual assault, support is available and healing is possible. You can reach the Rain National Sexual Assault hotline at 800-656-6-5-6-hop or connect online at rain.org.

Reporting can save a life. Elizabeth, welcome to unplanned. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for being here. I feel like every parent's biggest irrational fear is that their child would be taken from the home in the middle of the night without them knowing. and that became a reality for you and your family. Why do you choose to continue to share your story and what do you hope people gain from our conversation here today?

Well, initially, when I was first rescued, I didn't want to talk about what had happened. I didn't want anyone to know anything that had happened. And I just wanted it to stay in my past. I just wanted it to stay a secret. The trial took so long. long, I mean, the better part of a decade before one of my captors was finally prosecuted. And during that time, like, I was, felt like I was being interrogated, but I suppose interviewed

would probably be the correct word by FBI, the prosecution, really intensely. And then I had to take the stand, and I was on the stand for hours and hours. And at that point, I recognized that, like, anyone could go look up the court transcripts to find out what happened. And I remember just feeling like if my story is going to be out there, then I want to give it my perspective, not just have it be like bullet points or facts listed out. And I want there to be some kind of purpose to it because from the time that I was, rescued to the time that I took the stand and testified, I did have the opportunity to meet with a lot of victims and I did hear a lot of their stories and it was a very common theme that I heard how they were too scared to share their stories or that they felt alone because

nobody else was out there sharing their story and they felt a great sense of shame and embarrassment around what had happened to them. So I just remember it kind of felt like I don't want to say a perfect storm because I look back and I'm like there's no no way any of that was perfect, but for me to share my story on a bigger scale, to really step fully into advocacy, I feel like all of that played a part in getting me there. How do you tell your story to someone that hasn't heard it before? Because obviously there's a lot of people that know your story and know it very well, but how do you explain that to someone who meets you for the first time and doesn't really know? Well, it's not just a

the first words out of my mouth. I'm like, oh, hi, I'm Elizabeth. I was kidnapped. Nice to meet you. I was held captive for nine months. I mean, like, if I, honestly, I want to say it's not part of my daily life. It is because I am in the field of advocacy. But I mean, if I just met someone for the first time, I probably wouldn't even bring it up. Like, I'd just let them get to know me for me. I mean, I feel like people find out one way or another or they're like, what do you do for a living? I'm like, oh, well, yeah, I have a nonprofit or, you know, I do public presentations or I speak. And they're like, oh, really? Like, what's your nonprofit about?

Or, you know, like, what do you do? And then it's like, oh, well, I talk. And then they're like, oh, how'd you get into that? And I'm like, well, there's a whole story behind all this. Well, actually. Yeah. I've heard it said before, and it's so true, like, if someone were to ask me, what did you do on January 6th? of 20, 25, I'd be like, I don't, I couldn't tell you, but there's certain days that are so pivotal

in your life that you probably remember every detail. I'm curious, taking you back to when you were 14 years old, like that day, what do you remember about that day and then going into that evening? I mean, honestly, like, it was a normal day. There wasn't, like, anything really crazy or abnormal about it. It was just another. normal day, went to school, came home. I mean, I come from a big family, so I had a lot of brothers and my sister kind of running around. We had dinner as a family. I mean, just my parents gathered us together for our evening prayer and then sent us into bed. And it was just, it was just another day. It's just another night. And you were sharing a bed with your younger sister. Yes. And around what time

were you woken up? Do you know? I know at one point in time. I did. I do. I do. I did actually know the exact minutes. I had like a clock right next to me. But it's been so many years now that I feel like it was in between two and three. It was very late at night or very early in the morning, however you look at it. And what were the words that you heard that woke you up? So I heard a man's voice. And actually initially I didn't even respond at first because you don't plan on hearing a strange voice in your room.

in the middle of the night. I thought it must be part of a dream. But the voice repeated the same words again, saying, I have a knife at your neck, don't make a sound, get up and come with me. Wow. I can't even imagine being in that position. Did a part of you even think to scream?

No. I mean, there was a knife line right on my neck. The first words out of his mouth, besides telling me were, telling me he had a knife was don't make a sound. So, no, that thought did not even cross my mind that I should do that. I mean, my life felt like I could either stay quiet and live or I could say something and scream.

It didn't really feel like there was that much of an option. And also, at least I feel like I was taught a lot of safety education. I mean, you know, you've got fire drills. you've got earthquake drills. Like it's stranger danger, the buddy system. Like, I think there's probably more education in schools today, like active shooter education. But, I mean, that wasn't in school when I was. But there was still lots of safety education going on back then.

But none of it ever covered what you should do if you're woken up in the middle of the night with a stranger holding a knife to your neck. So it just felt like there was no option. How did your brain start to protect you? I noticed you said something about how, yeah, your brain kicks into protection mode and figures out a way forward. What did your brain do in those first days, weeks, months to protect yourself? Initially, it just felt like devastation. Initially, I really didn't know if I could survive.

I really didn't know if it was worth trying to survive. Eventually, I realized that maybe I'd be looked at differently by people who didn't know me, but ultimately my family would still love me and that would be worth surviving for. So I needed to do just whatever I had to to survive. That's an incredibly dark thought. Yeah, why did you believe a thought like that when you were in captivity that maybe people weren't going to love you anymore?

Because nobody was out there talking about nobody openly talked about sexual assault or sexual violence and any talk that even came remotely close to it, which still wasn't remotely close to it, was when I'd go to church and people would be like, oh, if you have sex before marriage, it's like you're a chewed up piece of gum. If you have sex before marriage, sex before marriage is bad. Sex before marriage means you're dirty, means you're worthless, means you're not as worthy. They won't want to marry you. And first of all, I just, I want to say, like, I don't care

if people believe in abstinence. I don't care if people don't believe in abstinence. Like, I really don't care what your beliefs are. I think it's fine. I just think no matter what, if you are going to teach abstinence, you have to be very clear. You have to teach the other side and be like, this is, this is abuse. This is, this is not your fault. This is not the same thing as true intimacy. This is not the same thing as consent. This is what coercion is. This is, can still happen between a boyfriend and a girlfriend, between a husband and a wife. It's not just a stranger thing. Like, I think you really need to spell it out.

Because otherwise, you'll be like me, where you sit there and you think, is it worth surviving for everyone to look at me differently? Is it worth surviving if nobody is ever going to love me or want to be with me? I mean, I know I'm not alone in having those thoughts. I've met too many people who've shared those same thoughts with me to know that I'm not alone. You talked about in a YouTube video that you posted how there was a demonstration you had. I don't know where exactly this demonstration happened, but basically how you were given a piece of gum, you shoot up the piece of gum, and then you were asked, okay, now would your friend want to chew up that piece of gum too? Yeah, it was at church.

Okay, at church, at church. And it just made me so sad hearing that because, yeah, I just thought about all the young girls that are taught that chewed up. piece of gum demonstration, and then how that makes them feel if they are a victim of assault, of, you know, insert blank. Like, it just made me heartbroken. And I guess the question I wanted to ask is, how does the teaching in the church maybe need to change, or teaching all around America and the world need to change for girls when it comes to that topic? I mean, it doesn't need to just change for girls. It needs to change for boys, too, because ultimately, the only way we could ever fully stop sexual abuse from happening is for abusers to stop abusing.

Because, I mean, my foundation, we have whole programs trying to empower victims, trying to empower women to just be able to get away safely, to take up space, to be able to, at least know they're strong enough that they, they know that they can strike someone or they can kick someone or that they can do something to get away. But again, like at the end of the day, if someone is intent on whether it's you or someone else they will and so the only way we can eliminate that is is to do better on all fronts to not just teach girls but also teach boys and another tragedy is you know boys they are getting sexually abused not as much as girls but still at a very high level a very high level and I'll never forget back when I was single

I went on a date one time with a young man. And at the end of the date, he started asking me a question. Like we were just chatting and then finally he was like, I just have to ask you a question. You were so many times. Was there ever just a point where you just like, like, okay, well, I can't stop this from happening. So I'm just going to lay back and enjoy it.

Because, you know, for me, I just feel like if there is no way out of it, I'd probably just lay back and enjoy it. And I was, so shocked that anyone would ever say that to me first of all. I was just like, are you kidding me? But then also that just like that mentality that he had in that moment, that is poison to any other young man who has ever been sexually abused because they look at themselves and think, well, I'm weak. I'm a man. I should be enjoying this. Or like, like, I should look at this like I'm so

awesome. I had this happen to me or I should have liked it, but I don't feel good inside. or, I mean, it's so harmful to young men, so harmful, I mean, harmful to anyone, harmful to everyone. So I think we have a lot to do. I mean, I feel like, just as an example, this is an issue that should be really approached from every angle. It should be approached in the home. It should be approached at school, community centers, churches, religions. It should be approached from all sides. Yeah. So a lot of times when I go out and speak, I'll ask people, you know, what do you do if you catch on fire? What do you do?

Stop drop and roll. Yeah. Did you even have to think about that answer? No, no, just came out. Yeah. I was taught it from a young age. Yeah, exactly. When I go out and speak, I'll ask people, how many of you have actually ever used? Stop, drop, and roll. Wait a minute. Okay. Why is it? People are being sexually abused so much more than people are catching on fire. Why do we teach kids to stop, drop, and roll, but we don't teach them how to approach sexual assault? That's exactly what I'm saying. Like, I will maybe have one or two hands go up in a room full of 600 people for stop, drop, and roll. Maybe one or two hands.

But, like, the national average for people who experience sexual violence, it's about one in five women. In Utah, it's one in three. Oh gosh. If you are indigenous, African-American, if you are one of the minority populations, it's not if it happens to you. It's really when it happens to you and how many times. Is it like one out of two? Is it like what are the stats there? I mean, it's over 50%. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't spit out exact numbers for every population, but I know if like, like you're a native or indigenous person, it's, I mean, it's almost everyone. And why is it happening more in those communities

than it is in other communities? I feel like I'm getting into, like, more difficult territory to talk about, and I feel like certainly there are people definitely more qualified to answer this because there are some really incredible organizations led by, created by indigenous people themselves or African Americans themselves. So definitely look them up, support them.

But my understanding is that there's just different laws. If you are abused on a reservation, then it's left to like the reservation police. But if that person leaves the reservation, then it's kind of like, well, whose jurisdiction does that fall under? And how do I go after them? And there's just like a lot of, you'd think it wouldn't matter. You think like you see abuse happening. It wouldn't matter if you're on this side of the street or that side of the street.

Yeah. But it does. And then there's just, they're not as visible as, say, someone like me. I mean, as sad and as terrible as it is, like, you know, if I had different hair, if I had different skin color, would my case have gotten as much attention as it did? You know, if my family, like, didn't have the connections that they had. If we were in a different, you know, economic situation, would my case have gotten the same publicity that it did? It's hard for me to believe that it would have because I don't know that I've ever seen another case received the same level of attention that mine did.

And certainly not for any of those minority groups. Does that ever leave you with like a feeling of guilt? I mean, on one hand, like it does make me angry and upset when I think it's roughly about every 78 seconds, a person is sexually abused. And every nine minutes, that person is a child. And so it makes me really upset because you don't even really hear like the tiniest fraction of those cases. I know my case received so much. But at the same time, I also look back and I'm kind of like, if my case hadn't have received the attention that it did, there's a pretty good chance I wouldn't be here

today. So I'd say it's kind of like a catch-22. Thank you to Shopify for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. When starting out a new business, the to-do list keeps growing every day with new tasks and it seems never-ending. That's why it's important to find the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything. of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates.

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helpful. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify. And start hearing, sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash unplanned. Go to Shopify.com slash unplanned. That's Shopify.com slash unplanned. You've had a lot of good conversation on like the topic of intimacy, sexual violence, consent, all these things like with children. And now you are a mom yourself to three young kids. I'm curious when those conversations started with your own children and how they look different from how you were raised. So one of the best pieces of parenting advice I was given was the right time to start talking about things is when your kids start asking questions. And I agree with that completely. But also,

I recognize the fact that these are really big, heavy, scary topics that, like, of course you want to educate your kids. You want to keep them safe. but at the same time, how do you talk to them about it without scaring them? You don't want them to live in fear. Honestly, I think one of the easiest ways to begin is like when you're talking about body parts with your kids, like you're like, where are your eyes? And they point to their eyes, where's your nose? Where's your mouth?

Where's your elbow? And, you know, they're just learning the different names of different body parts. You know, teach them to say penis. Teach them to say a vagina or a vulva. And don't attach shame to it because, for example, I mean, my parents just were like, they're your privates. They're your privates, they're your privates, they're your privates. And that's all we really referred to them as. Then I was kidnapped.

Everything happened. Just, I think it was the second day I was home. I was brought to the Children's Justice Center where I was heavily, I'm going to say, interrogated by these two psychiatrists. that my parents had been told if I had talked to them, they could stand as proxy for me during the trial. Of course, that didn't happen, but. Wait, why? Why did that not happen?

I mean, there were just so many problems with my case. I mean, my case, it was in the state courts for almost five years. If it had hit five years, the statute of limitations would have been up and my captors would have been released. So before the five years was up, I was approached by the US Attorney's Office here in Utah

and asked if I wanted to, to move it to federal courts if I wanted to try to press federal charges and of course I did I didn't want them out yeah so then it was moved to the federal courts but there was I don't even know the exact reasons why they couldn't why they didn't end up standing witness for me or standing proxy for me but for whatever reason they didn't but um it was it was a terrible experience for me and I'm not saying these men were mean or that they weren't qualified but I, first of all, I didn't want to go anywhere. I just got home.

And then my heads are like, okay, you have to go. And I didn't like having my choices taken away from me because they'd all been taken away from me for nine months. I was brought to this place. I remember they opened a closet door and they're like, oh, here's a stuffed animal. Would you like to hold one? And I remember just thinking, where were the stuffed animals?

Well, I was being chained up and there wasn't a stuffed animal. If I can live through that without a stuffed animal, I don't need one now. I mean, that felt quite condescending to me. I know that they were only trying to do their best. Yeah. But I just was like, that is not going to help any situation. You know what I'm made of, sir. And then I was brought into this room, and there were these two men in there.

Like, I was scared to be around men. I didn't trust men. They were roughly the same age as my captor. So that made me feel uncomfortable. And then they were both clearly religious, different religion than mine. But that also just made me feel uncomfortable because my captors had justified everything they did to me through religion. So there was nothing that felt good about this situation just from the very get-go. And then as they try to find out what happened to me and as they asked questions, they got to a point where they're like,

so tell me what happened and I said well they hurt me well how'd they hurt you well they molest me well um they they they molest me and they're like okay well can you tell do you know what is i was like yes and they're like well can you explain what rib is to us can you tell me what exactly he did and i was like well he you know he pushed himself inside me and they're like well you need to say the anatomically correct body parts so i had to get into such detail where i was saying he was forcefully pushing his penis into my vagina repeatedly and having no never even grown up feeling comfortable saying those words. That whole experience was terrible.

So now as a parent, I look at my own kids and I'm like, heaven forbid, anything ever happened to you. But if it does, I want the least of your worries to be like comfortable comfort with using like body specific words. I want that to not even be a blip on your radar. Like I want to make this as least traumatizing for you as possible. And so there shouldn't be shame attached to body parts. Like, how is a penis any different from a knee or an elbow or an eye?

Like, it's just part of your body. And so I try my best to make sure my kids don't feel uncomfortable, saying the correct body parts. Not that I just want them running around screaming penis all day or anything else. I mean, not that that's happened, but it happens quick. Yeah. I appreciate you saying that, though, because. because it's easy as a parent to be like, well, you know, that happens to other people, but it's like not my kid, you know, or...

I'm too involved in my kids. I'm around my kids all the time. That won't happen. I won't let it happen. Exactly. I'm a good dad. I'm a present father. That's never going to happen.

They don't need to use the anatomically correct term. Or like, you know, stranger danger, stranger danger. Don't talk to strangers. Like, honestly, strangers are probably safer than the people you know. Most kidnappings, most abuse that take. place comes from people you know. How is how? That's so upsetting to hear that because when I hear about or I hear about people molesting people like I just think of it as this like stranger this horrible you know bad guy from a movie type character coming in and like doing something awful but what you're

saying is it's actually people's family or friends typically. Yeah yeah it is very rare that it's a stranger I want to say it's like 2% of the time it's a stranger. I mean we certainly hear about the stranger ones a lot more than we hear about family. But family and like kind of that close circle of people who you trust, those are the biggest threats. I mean, it's why when a child is kidnapped, when a child disappears and law enforcement comes in, the first people they look at are the parents.

And that's what they did with your dad. That's what they did with, yeah, with my parents, yep. Did you ever think while you were in captivity that maybe your dad was going to get wrongfully convicted? Oh, never. not for a second. And when I was rescued and I heard that he had come under like incredible scrutiny, I was just like, what's wrong with you? My dad would never hurt me. My dad would never kidnap me. Like, you must not be very smart if you think that. But now, of course, knowing everything I know, I'm like, yeah, you know what? I understand why they did that. Not that it was like a pleasant

experience for anyone in my family. I think it was all hell for everyone. But like I do understand why they did it. And, you know, when I speak to families who have had a child go missing, I'm like, as terrible as it is, as uncomfortable at it is, cooperate with law enforcement, like answer whatever question they have. Do whatever you have to do, declare yourself so that your focus can stay on your child and finding your child and bringing your child home. I can't imagine the frustration that would be, that would feel like, even though, like you're saying, they're doing this in the best interest of the child. like the most statistically common resolution,

but I can't imagine being your parents' position, especially your dad's, where they're, look for my daughter. It's not me. There's been a conversation of re-victimization that's come up recently that I've heard. I'm curious if you deem your trial, like that whole years-long process and everything that went into your case,

as well as it sounds like your experience at the Child Justice Center, Would you consider that revictimization? I mean, I felt like my experience at the Children's Justice Center, like that was a bad experience. I don't look back on that and have anything positive to say about it. I do think things have come so far since then. There are so many more better practices now,

and people are just, I'd say, much more trauma-informed, trauma-aware. I want to say I don't think that would ever happen again. I think we've come that far. It's hard to speak in absolutes. But I believe that that would be the exception and not the norm these days. I do think we've made so much progress in the field of forensic interviewing and how we treat, at least at these specific children's justice centers, children advocacy centers, and how we interact with victims.

I think they've come such a long way from when I went through it. I think everyone's going to have a little bit different answer as to what's traumatizing for them. And I guess for me, there's only been a couple times in all the years that I've ever spoken about what's happened to me that I felt truly uncomfortable. And it's never been on a podcast. It's never been on an interview. It's been when there's been incredibly deep digging. when one of the psychiatrists for the federal case had to get my side of the story. And, I mean, he asked very difficult, hard questions about very intimate details that that was hard for me.

And I didn't like talking about it. And I didn't want to talk about it. And then again, when I was interviewed, interrogated again for the trial by the FBI in preparation for the case, it was not good. It was miserable, but also I recognize that this needs to happen. Like, I will, this chapter is going to go on forever unless I do what I have to do to be done with it. And so I did. And I guess at the same time, like, maybe that's just the kind of person I am. Like, let's, no, I don't want to take a break.

I just want to get through it and I want to get it over with. Let's just keep going. Get what you need and be done. Hearing you talk about being basically interrogated by a psychiatrist or two psychiatrists for hours on end sounds horrible. I mean, what is changing now to make this system better to have reform in the system? And then what would you like to see continue to change that doesn't exist today? So in many of these children's justice centers or children's advocacy centers, they have really streamlined the process. So the day I was rescued,

it was a little bit of a mess, really. It was kind of all over the place. But, you know, I was taken from one police station to another police station. I was reunited with my family. I was taken away from my family to be questioned by police separate from my family. And then I was taken to the hospital. And then I was finally brought home. And then, you know, it was a day or two later that I was taken to the Children's Justice Center. So, I mean, overall, I wasn't just interviewed one time, whereas nowadays, things like many of the centers that I've taught. their process is much more streamlined. If a child comes in, unfortunately, I'd say most of the time they've been abused by a man, not always, but much of the time.

And so typically talking to a female is going to feel safer than talking to a man. Of course. It's not always, but I would say much of the time it is a woman they're coming in to talk to. There's so many different things to take into account. I mean age, maturity level, do they have any special needs? These forensic interviewers, they're trained in all these different ways. If it's a very young child, they might not have all the words, so it might be more kind of like drawing based. They will have maybe a two-way mirror so that the forensic interviewers in there and they have like an earpiece in

and a police officer can stand on the other side and say like these are the things we need to get. And so the forensic interviewer can talk to the victim in like a compassionate way, help them to share whatever they need to share so that law enforcement has what they need to then prosecute or to hold the perpetrator until there's a case or something to move forward with. Much of the time now, I'd say almost most of the time. and again, just in my experience in the centers that I've toured, they will have a sane nurse on hand. So sexual assault nurse examiner, who she'll be in the same building. So it's not like police station,

hospital, other location. It's all kind of like one place where the nurse can, you know, check for, make sure that they're okay, make sure that they're safe. And then treat anything that needs to be treated and then collect any evidence that might need to be collected. But again, like in a very trauma-informed way, tried it.

Like, for example, I think it's so helpful when, I mean, just like, even now as an adult, when I go into, like, see the doctor, the doctor's like, okay, I just, this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to tell you when I'm going to do it. And I want you to tell, like, that very clear communication, I think makes a big difference. And that's what these nurses do. I mean, and they're just some of the most compassionate and kind and empathetic people you will meet.

And then many of these organizations, they also have their therapists right there on site. And many times there can be emergency housing right there on site. Or they have their safe houses. Or, you know, if you don't have clothes, they'll have clothes on hand. They'll have food on hand. So it's almost, I don't want to say one-stop shopping. That makes it sound like fun. Funny or trivial.

it's not but I mean they really have made a big effort to make it as least traumatizing as possible who was someone that showed compassion to you that helped you get out of the horrible place you were in as a kid I mean yeah maybe there was like a family member or a friend or someone that just like helped walk you through it and showed up for you I mean when I was rescued I kind of like what I was saying earlier, I didn't want to talk about what happened. And I remember while I was held in captivity, I felt like the world was just moving on without me. And I was like, how can, like, how can the rest of my year be starting high school? They're starting high school without me. Like, they're joining sports teams without me. They're doing all of these things without me. They're just

moving on with their life. So when I got back, I was like, I never want to miss anything ever again. like I want to do everything. So I don't really feel like I was in a very excited place. You were excited? Well, I was just rescued. Like I was just brought back from my family. Yeah, and you just wanted to like put the past in the past and just forget about it. Yeah, I knew it had been taken from me already and I felt like it was being given back.

Like I didn't want to lose this second chance at life. I felt like I'd been given. What was it your mom said to you? There's a powerful quote. I think you said it in a TED talk. Abby told me. I remember it from 12 years ago when I first listened to your TED talk. You said your mom said very soon after you were rescued.

Yeah, she had just said to me, Elizabeth, what these people have done to you is terrible. And they're aren't words strong enough to describe how wicked and evil they are. They've stolen nine months of your life. The best punishment you can give them is to be happy and not let them steal a single second more. I agree with that, but anyone listening to this, I wouldn't want them to think you just push your trauma under the rug. Yeah. Like I think basically what it means is don't give up on yourself.

Like believe in happiness. You might not feel happy right now, but believe it exists, believe that you can have it. Like keep reaching for it because you deserve it. Did you forgive your captors? So I guess my short answer is yes. My long answer is I, I think I probably have my own definition of forgiveness. What is it?

I mean, I don't think forgiveness, like, I feel like when we think of forgiveness, it's easy to kind of think about it, like, at recess, like playground forgiveness where, like, someone pushes you down and you cry and you run into the teacher, and the teacher makes that kid say sorry, and then you say, okay, and then you go and be friends or, like, between siblings or something just, like, very simple. To me, I don't think that's forgiveness. I think forgiveness is the greatest gift of self-love. It's loving yourself enough to put down the weight of your past.

So do I think that's okay? No, I'll never be okay with it. Do I think kidnapping's okay? No, I'll never be okay with it. Do I think hurting a child is okay? No, I will never be okay with any of those things. But I also love myself enough that I don't want my history to hold me back.

I don't want my past to stop me from living my life the way I want to. And so I feel like I love myself enough that I'm not going to let my captors consume my energy, my time, my bandwidth. And so I never want to see them. I never want to see one of my captors out of prison. Yeah, I don't want to ever have anything to do with them. but they also don't take up any more space in my life. Wow.

That's incredible. I mean, and you, of all people, have, in my opinion, every right to not forgive after hell that you went through. I think that's really powerful. And I think there's a lot that I can learn from that, that everyone listening can learn from that. I mean, the horror of your experience. I mean, I still want to talk more about it, but also the Netflix documentary is so good. your book is so good. So people can read your book. People can watch the documentary. I did see, though, when I was looking at videos of, I think it's so cool that you have a YouTube channel and you're

doing advocacy work on YouTube. That's so rad. That's so cool. I did see that one of your captors is out of prison and that she was arrested because she went into a park. And that's a, that's a no-no for her because she lost that right. I mean, how do you feel after going through what you went through, feel about her being out of prison? It was a disappointment. I mean I remember when she was released. I remember the governor of Utah coming on and saying oh she's going to be on a very short leash and if she puts a toe out of line like she's she knows straight back where she's going. I mean she's a registered sex offender so they're not allowed in within a certain distance of schools of elementary schools. They're not allowed in public parks and she went to the park

and she said God commanded her to feed the ducks. Seriously, that's actually what she said? That's as far as I understand. Yeah, that's what she said. Do you think that she's mentally ill? Do you think it's an act? I have mixed feelings. I have mixed thoughts because, like, on one hand,

she was, before she was married to my other captor, she came from a previous marriage, and she had six kids in her previous marriage. Yeah. How could a mother of six kids be okay with that? Exactly. Exactly. She not only sat there and watched me be abused, but she encouraged it.

I think she wanted to feel special and I think she wanted to feel important. And I think she found that feeling from my other captor, Brian Mitchell, who would tell her things like, well, you know, you're the mother of Zion and, you know, you're a queen and God has a throne on the right hand of him waiting for you and you've suffered so much. And so I think initially, I think initially she would have just, she would have known 100% she would have been like, no, absolutely not. Like, this is wrong. But I also think she, it didn't just happen overnight. I mean, it's like, it's like cases of grooming. Um, When when people hear about grooming, they don't actually realize it's a very slow process of little by little by little by little until one day you're looking at it or someone from the outside looking at is like, this is not okay. This is not normal. How did it ever get to this point? Well, it didn't go from zero to a hundred the same day. I mean, this is days and weeks and months, sometimes even years. And I feel like that's kind of what happened in this case, in her case. You know, it didn't just happen overnight. It was days.

and weeks and months of years and years of him kind of telling her these things so that she would be like, oh, you're right, you know what, I deserve a handmaiden, I deserve someone to take care of me. Yes, she can be wife number two. And like she's going to do what I have to say. Was there manipulation on her? Yes. Was she crazy? She allowed herself to be manipulated. it became easier to believe the manipulation than the truth. It's always going to be easier to play the victim than the predator in hindsight. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Does she probably have some mental health issues? Yeah, she does. But do I think she's crazy? No. I think the fact that your abusers were a male and female, like, duo is unique in a way. And also, it baffles me. that a woman and a mother specifically could be a part of it, kind of like we touched on earlier. How do you think that added complexity to your healing process?

Because earlier we were talking about how in the Child Justice Center is like a young girl is usually being, has been abused by a man, so they would want to talk to a female. How do you think that added any type of nuance to your specific story? I think it just made me more wary all around. I don't know that that had like a massive effect on me. I mean, growing up, I was always close to my mom and I always felt safe to my mom when I got home. But I think it just as I met new people, as I came into contact with new people, like if I got an uncomfortable feeling, then I just ended up paying closer attention to that person or watched a little closer if I felt like they were crossing boundaries. I just kept my guard up a little bit more.

A part of your story that stands out to me probably one of the most is the instance that they highlighted in the documentary in which you were in a public library with Brian Mitchell and you had your face covered and you're in a public place and there's so many people around you while you're still kidnapped and a police officer. comes up to you guys. Can you kind of describe that situation? Because I can't even imagine like being this close to freedom and then still having to walk away. Like what was that feeling like that devastation or what did it feel like to get so close to that freedom? I mean, you're absolutely right. It was devastation. I have been asked so many times over the years like,

oh, why didn't you scream? Why didn't you say something? There are so many reasons why I didn't and it's not because I didn't want to and I also just have to say I feel like I know my case sounds so extreme and so out of the ordinary but I think if you look at victims of domestic violence you see the same thing well you had a car you had a phone you had a credit card or you debit card or whatever it is never just as clean cut and as clear as just getting in your car and driving away or just for me in that moment, just opening my mouth and saying, yes, I'm Elizabeth smart. Please, please rescue me. You know, I was a child when I was kidnapped.

I'd lived a very sheltered life up until that point. From the time that I was kidnapped to the time that we were in that library, that had already been months of abuse, that had already been months of thinking I was going to be rescued and not. And he'd had a lot of time to hurt me very, very badly, to follow through with any threat that he felt like following through with. I mean, it got to a point where he really did feel like he was invincible. And prior to my, well, even up to that moment, I didn't have interaction with law enforcement. Like, I had no reason to.

And I didn't know anyone personally who was in law enforcement. I mean, the closest interaction I ever had with law enforcement was the police officer who came to teach the DARE program in fifth grade. And, you know, that was still one officer to, what, 25 kids? So it wasn't like there was a personal connection there. And I didn't know this officer. I didn't know if he could actually protect me. I did know my captor.

I absolutely knew he could hurt me. And so it just felt like, felt very dangerous to me. The whole situation felt dangerous. The whole situation felt scary, felt intimidating. Wanda Barzzi, she was sitting right next to me. She had just clamped her hand down on my leg. So I mean, I was physically being touched, which was like reminding me of everything that I'd already experienced and what they were capable of doing if I didn't do what they said. So it was, I mean, it was a very stressful situation because, of course, I wanted to be rescued, but at the same time, I wanted to stay alive.

And I wanted my family to stay alive. And I felt a lot of responsibility, not just for my own survival, but for their survival. because my captors had said, you know, if you don't do what we want, we'll go after your family. Well, they even told you that they were going to kidnap your sister and your cousin. And wasn't there something about Brian saying that he wanted seven people in his camp? Yes, yeah. He wanted seven young wives. I was just the first.

Did he ever attempt to take more? So he made two attempts. One was my cousin. And the other was a girl. He actually never saw in person. He just saw a picture of her. It was while we were in California. He was looking for another girl to kidnap. He started going to churches to find that girl. And, you know, when you go to churches, people are nice. They're friendly to you. They're like, oh, you want to learn more? Like, you know, why you come over to dinner tonight? And that's exactly what happened to him. A couple invited him over to dinner.

saw a picture of a young girl, and it turns out she was the daughter of the wife and her first husband, and she split up her time between the two families. That's all he ever saw of her was just her picture. Then he, like, figured out, he left, he figured out, like, when she was going to be back with her mom, and that's when he went after her, and he fortunately was not successful. When you were in that library and the police officer was there, did any part of you think that if you would have tried to run or if you would have said, yes, I am Elizabeth Smart.

Was any part of you, like, seeing how terrible Brian could be, did you think that he might even go as far to kill the police officer? Oh, that was absolutely a possibility in my mind. He'd successfully broken into my home. He'd held me hostage already for not hostage captive for months already. Like, he'd bring back missing flyers and newspaper articles about the search effort being put on for me. And he'd laugh about it.

And he'd be like, oh, all the world's looking for you, but I have you. So no one will ever find you. I mean, and he got away with it. Like, nobody did find me. Nobody was there to rescue me. Nobody was there to protect me. Thank you to Ladder for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Can I be honest, I've never really had the best workout routine.

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Remove the guesswork with ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what's do for every workout. No thinking. Everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit slash unplanned and take a quick quiz to find your perfect ladder plan. Use our link and get a free seven day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month. If you join. You bring up this concept of appeasement in your book. I feel like that played a role had to maybe play a role also in your silence like in the the library in your own words, can you describe this concept of like appeasement when you're in an abusive situation? So we have different trauma responses and most people have heard of

fight or flight and then some people have heard of freeze, but there's another one that's called appeasement. And from the outside in, people might look at it and be like, well, that's Stockholm syndrome. Well, no. Stockholm syndrome doesn't really exist. This is a appeasement and it's basically where your life is on the line and you're doing everything you can to stay alive and so if that means from the outside looking in it looks like you're loving someone it looks like you're complicit it looks like you're part of it you're just doing what you have to do to survive for instance when i was rescued i remember recognizing that they could kill me at any point they wanted to.

And I realized that if I did what they said, if I tried to get them to like me and they did like me, then maybe that would make them pause before they killed me. And if I could get them to like me enough, maybe they'd feel too bad about killing me. And so that was my thought process.

So that meant doing whatever it was they wanted me to do. That meant saying or not saying, whatever it was they wanted. It meant just playing along with them so that they wouldn't hurt me or kill me just to stay alive. How did you manipulate them? Or you did in a way, correct? I mean, when it came time while we were in California

and they were talking about places to go and I knew my best chance of survival was getting back to Utah. I mean, I feel like I tried to use the same tactics that they used on me, which was basically saying, oh, I feel like God's telling me we need to go back to Utah, but like I am not worthy enough for him to speak to me, but you know, you're his prophet, you're his king. I know he'll tell you. Like, could you please ask him? And that's how it was decided we'd go back to Utah. It's crazy to me that they used God to justify everything. Was that confusing for you as a kid to hear them like throw around God and, you know, just speak in these religious terms?

And it took me a while to figure out that their names also weren't Emmanuel and has. Hebsabal? Yeah. Where's Hebsabal from? Where does that come from? They're Bible names. Okay. Yeah.

Is that Old Testament? Hebsable? Yeah. Okay. Crazy. And they just, and was that all Brian's? idea just to make them holier than thou to raise them up to this almost godlike standard yes that's it exactly what did the documentary not include that you wish it would have included because it's only 90 minutes

long it's it's it's fairly short it is 90 minutes long it you know it tells my family's side it tells my side so i mean you know you hear what 40 minutes of my side maybe yeah like really a small part and and you're trying to condense you know not nine months into, well, for my story, like, you know, 40, 45, I don't know, whatever amount of time. You're trying to condense a lot into just a few minutes, really. There's nine months of content. You could have made a documentary nine months long. But watching it for me, watching the final cut, I felt like it showed enough that you could imagine,

gave you enough to imagine what it would have been like. And I feel like it did a really good job on not being too graphic, but you still knew what happened. I feel like it was just very well done. And are there things I wish it included? I think it depends on the day. Oh, yeah. What's one of those things?

Mostly I'd say, no, I'm happy with what it is. because again, you know, even when I go out and speak, even sitting here and chatting today, like, there's no way we'll cover everything that happened. There's no way we can go through every day. I mean, I couldn't even tell you August 20th. I remember doing, I couldn't do that. There's just a lot that happens,

but I felt like enough was shown that you could understand what the rest of the nine months was like. And I don't know that there's any way, to like portray just exactly what they were like. I mean, as wonderful as actors are in this world, or as well as I can give a description. I'm just not sure that anything can truly compare to what they were actually like.

An element of your captivity that I don't hear spoken about a lot, so maybe this isn't exactly, relevant, but he forced you to drink beer and get drunk. Was that throughout the entire time, essentially? I mean, it wasn't just beer. It was other kinds of alcohol. Like, it wasn't like, oh, every day, but there were definitely times throughout that he'd, like, make a point to have me drink, yes. As far as your relationship with alcohol today, does it, was that growing up in a religious household, was that also specifically, like, heavy for you? Growing up, up like you know my parents didn't drink i like never like that just was not something that was ever

going to happen in my life so yeah absolutely like when he'd bring alcohol back i mean it just felt like as bad as i felt about everything already it just made me be like well great i can't even like keep the least of my promises like yeah like it just made me feel Like, I remember just crying the first time he was having me drink. And I remember begging him to let me not drink. And it, like, it just felt devastating. Even though now looking back, I'm not laughing at myself, but also I think I'm looking back with, like, kinder eyes,

like more compassion. Like, like, if I could go back and tell myself something, I'd be like, Elizabeth, this is, you don't, like, you don't need to worry about this. This is, no one's. going to look at you and be like, you're going to hell because you had a drink of wine while you were kidnapped and it was forced on you. Like, it's okay. Just do whatever you have to do to survive. If drinking this means you're going to survive, then it's the right decision to make.

Not that it really was a decision anyway. Right. Did you count every day you were in captivity? Initially, I did. And then it just became too hard to keep counting. It just made my family. feel farther away, made me feel more and more lost, and so I did eventually stop counting. How many days was it that you decided to just give up? Honestly, I can't remember. It was above 50. Goodness. Your resolve to survive is so evident, and it seems like you made that decision very early on, and being 14 also on top of all this is just extremely, it's just all inspiring. And I remember you saying at one point that you had so determined that you were going

to survive through this, that you had even made up in your mind that if it meant that you had to outlive your captors, like thinking, you know that this could be, I mean, it would be decades, that you had decided, yes, still worth it. Yeah. That's, I mean, that honestly takes my breath away. I cannot imagine that. But also like, I don't know. As a 14-year-old, does time mean the same as it does as an adult? I mean, I think it was like a little bit different concept. Like I knew I'd get older. I knew like if I had to wait until they died.

Like I knew I knew time would keep passing. I knew I'd be older. But also just in my mind I was like, I'm just going to do it. Now also looking back like, did I really understand what that was? I mean, like, what could have happened to me in all that time? Could I really have survived? I don't know. Was there ever a concern of pregnancy?

Of course. Yeah. But I'm a very late bloomer. I did not start my period until December, and I was rescued in March. And you started while you were in captivity. Yeah, I started while I was in captivity. Yeah. My period was not, I mean, it's never been normal.

to this day, but like back then it was like I was bleeding for three weeks, stop for a couple of days and just start bleeding again. So it was very abnormal. Wow. Do you think part of that is because of the trauma? I mean, I couldn't speak from like a scientific background, but there's always kind of been a part of me that's kind of wondered, well, if I hadn't been, like if my body hadn't been treated,

the way it was, would my period have maybe even started even later? Yeah. I don't know. Did your dad just want to, like, kill this guy? Like, how did your dad not keep himself from, like, breaking into the prison and just, like, stabbing this dude? I don't know. Like, I just as a father, I can't imagine the horror of having this happen.

I mean, he never, he never talked to me about it. But I guess, as I'm a parent now, I wouldn't, I would want. my children, if something happened to my children, I would want them to feel like all of my focus was on them and that I was doing everything I could to make them feel safe and make sure that they felt taking care of and make sure that like I was there and in a good mind frame to be the best parent I could be for them. I'm sure my dad had thoughts. I'm sure my dad had feelings, but I never saw that side of him. How do you tell your story to your children? I mean, I'd say it just grew with them.

My oldest could tell you the most and my youngest could tell you the least, but they could all tell you that I was kidnapped and I was hurt and then I was rescued. And how do you teach your kids about consent about about, yeah, how do you teach your kids about those topics? How do you talk to them in age-appropriate ways? I mean, again, it does start out very simplistic. Like, this is your body and nobody has the right to touch your body. You own this body. This is your body.

And so if you don't want to give a hug to someone, you don't have to give a hug to someone. If you don't want to give a kiss to someone, you don't have to give a kiss to someone. Nobody has the right to touch you in a way that you don't want them to be touched. No one should see you naked unless, you know, it's me or my husband and we're helping you with something or we're at the doctor and I'm there with you. So we start off very small like that. as like as all my kids are in elementary school now I've told them you know if anyone ever tries to touch you if anyone ever tries to hurt you you can do whatever you want them you want to punch them in the face you go punch them in the face you want to kick them in the crotch like go kick them in the crotch like

and if you get in trouble with for it and like the principal calls me down I'm going to tell her you did exactly what I told you to do because you are too special to be hurt and nobody has the right to you feel unsafe or hurt you. And so we have those conversations regularly. My kids have gotten to the point where they're like, mom, can I have a sleepover, mom? No. There are no sleepovers.

I'm sorry. Like, I'm happy for you to go, it's not play dates anymore. It's hang out. Hang out. I'm happy for you to go hang out, but I will be picking you up. And if you want to hang out again tomorrow, we can plan that, but you're not spending the night. Thank you to Cash App for sponsoring this portion of today's

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member FDIC. Cash App Green, overdraft coverage, borrow cashback offers and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Inc brand. Visit cash. Dot app slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. What do you, I appreciate you explain the whole permission thing, whether it's a hug or literally anything, because I'm a hugger and I literally thought back, I was like, oh gosh. Yeah, I was like, crap, I hugged you. I literally hug everyone.

And then I was like, I, when we met like an hour ago, I gave you hug. And I'm like, gosh, dang it was I should have said it. Should I have said permission to hug? Like, I was like, what? Yeah. Talk to me about that. I mean, I think it's like perfect. Like, I have met so many people and like so many people do feel like they've fallen.

all of my stories so closely and they want to give me a hug and that's okay. That's like for me, that's fine. I think it is nice though. Just be like, hey, do you mind if I give you a hug? And then just give them the chance to say yes or no. I think that's great. And I think, you know, like I think it is nice to be hugged. Like I hope most people like hugs.

Like I like hugs. But, you know, like some people don't feel comfortable with it. So I think it's good just be like, hey, I'm a huggy type of person. Do you mind if I give you a hug? Totally. Thank you for explaining that. That's really good. Now that you're an adult, now that you're a mom, you're married, you have three children? Yeah, three. I'm guessing it's still probably hard sometimes to be just around men because like that men are scary.

Like it was a scary, or am I wrong in saying that? I don't think just blanket statement men are scary. I don't think that I think anyone can be scary. and I think it comes down to just like listening to your senses, listening to your gut. And I think that's very important because many of us live so hard, try not to offend anyone. Strangers, people we don't even know to the point that we don't listen to our instincts anymore. I mean, for example, like I wish I could say I came up with this. I didn't, but I think it's brilliant.

You would never see just like a gazelle willingly walk into an elevator, a closed steel box with a lion in it. But as people, whether you're in a hotel, a mall, an airport, like the elevator door opens and you can see someone kind of scary looking in there, but you don't, you still get in. Yeah. Like you'll still just walk in and just be like, you know what? It's not right of me to judge that other person. They could be the nicest person in the world. so I'm just going to ignore my senses. I'm going to ignore my instincts and I'm going to get in there.

And I think it's really important just to state, like, as much as I want to say, yeah, don't judge the person next to you. You don't know what they've been through. You don't know why they are the way they are. Also, you should not, your personal safety should take precedence over your fear of offending someone else. Crime Junkie says, be weird, be rude, stay alive. Do you listen to Crime Jockey? was interviewed by that. No way! Okay. That's Abby loves true crime. I heard that also when it was

released. That was years ago. It was yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate your vulnerability and honesty on your YouTube page. You had a conversation. You said many people had asked you after being rescued, well, since getting married about, you know, intimacy in a marriage after being a victim of sexual violence and how people were curious about that and how that took you a back at first. But then you just honestly talked about how you navigated intimacy in a safe context after such a violent and unsafe circumstance. And I think that a lot of listeners can probably relate to that to some extent after like having being victims themselves.

Can you talk a bit about how you navigate. healthy intimacy after being a victim of sexual violence? Well, I mean, right from the very beginning, and I could have said no to my husband at any point in time. I could have said no when he first asked me out on a date. I could have said no when he first tried to kiss me. I could have said no when he asked me to marry him. I could have said no at any point in that road.

Like I never was scared of him. I never felt threatened by him. I always felt like he respected me. I always felt like he loved me for me. And so every step along the way, it was yes. And like even to this day, I've never felt in danger from him. I've never felt that I needed to worry about being vulnerable with him. Like I just, like, I've said it before.

But like from like the first time I walked off the plane in Scotland and he was waiting for me there, even though Scotland's a completely foreign country to me and is not my home, just like walking straight into his arms felt like home to me. And that's just how it's always been. And it's always been like consent. It's always been like if we have sex, it's because we both want to. It's not because one of us is forced in the other. It's because we both want to. And I think really, having the ability to say yes, the ability to say no, has made all the difference for me. It's helped me recognize that, you know what? Like true intimacy is not the same thing as wrong.

They are different things. That's good. Your YouTube video about this very topic, you talked about using like your senses, and it was just really interesting, like as a grounding technique. How, like, where did you learn that? How to ground like that? I mean, honestly, like, again, I did not come up with that. That was from listening to therapists, speak at conferences, that was listening to other people talk about their relationships.

That was me learning from other people and then sharing the information that I've learned. And honestly, experimenting with. Isn't there like a certain technique, though, where you, like, think of three things or you name three things in the room? What is the exercise? There is. but I couldn't tell you exactly what it is. I know it's been explained to me probably like 10 times. However, my retention is not always the best.

But I know there are different methods to help you, like, disconnect from your past and reconnect to the present. Yeah. And I feel like if you are struggling, like, you should go to a counselor or, like, specifically a sex therapist. and they can help you find the best technique for yourself. Is that something that you had to do or that you experienced is like going to someone like that? I did not. I think if I had been kidnapped and abused and I was older and I was in my 20s and I was already sexually active and I came home and like immediately jumped into other relationships,

I think that I would have needed that. I think that would have been very helpful. But when I came back, I mean, that wasn't, like, I didn't come back to a boyfriend. I didn't come back to a relationship. I didn't come back to have sex. Like, that was still years away. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't go to therapy right away after everything, right? Like therapy took years or like maybe even a decade, right?

How long did it take you to go? from being rescued to then actually making it into therapy. When I went to therapy, it wasn't about my kidnapping. It was about my parents' divorce. You know, I've told my story. I've told my story in private to specific people, but I never went through the process of therapy for what happened. That's fascinating to me.

I do, but for the record, like, I think therapy's great. Yeah. I believe in therapy. Like, if you feel it's right for you, like keep trying until you find the right modality keep trying until you find the right therapist if you don't feel like it's right for you there's nothing wrong with with not going to it like you find what works for you and when you went to therapy to talk to a therapist about your parents divorce and how that affected you did you talk about the horror of being kidnapped or no was that even not even on

the table just because you'd already worked through it I maybe mentioned it but it was more it was it wasn't about that. It was just more like to give context or reference from what I thought to what was happening. And if this is too much of like too deep of question, that's totally okay. We don't have to answer this. But was your parents' divorce more traumatic for you than the kidnapping? It was just different. It was just something that I mean, obviously I never dreamed I could be kidnapped.

but my parents being together, that was like the foundation that I had built my life on. Yeah. Like something I'd taken for granted that they'd never split up, that they would always be together. And all of a sudden, it just felt like it broke our family apart. And so trying to figure out, still figure out ways forward, you know, because life is always changing. It's hard. It's just different. How old were you when that happened and you ended up going to therapy?

Oh, my parents divorced? My youngest was like a month old and so I guess seven years ago. Wow. And being postpartum that would be a lot. One month out from your first. That's a crazy time of life to have something so unmooring as like your parents had been married your whole life or something like that to happen, I can imagine. I feel like we hear a lot about, like you're so great about sharing your story when you're 14 and 15.

and that we see you now and for years now being such a profound advocate and so great at sharing your story. I think there's a part in the middle that I'm curious about as far as like you said you were so eager to get back to do all the things that you had missed out on. Like I'm curious like how did you navigate peer relationships and maybe curious questions from your peers that are just trying, they don't necessarily know how to ask. Adults don't know how to ask appropriate questions. times to victims, like how did you navigate those maybe inappropriate questions from other teenagers? I don't know for sure, but I think probably parents and or teachers probably said don't ask her any questions about what happened because most students didn't. I mean, every now and then someone would. And typically that was after they'd gotten to know me a little bit better. But most, most didn't.

Didn't. Did you like that that they didn't ask? I mean, on one hand, yeah. Yeah, I did like it because I didn't just want to be known as the girl that was kidnapped. On the other hand, I think that sometimes maybe it kept people at arm's length a little bit more than maybe they would have been otherwise. But there's something to avoid here. Yeah. Did you find it hard to, like, did you just go right back to school?

I mean, I would have gone back the next day, but my parents were like, no. like no. So I did like school packets to like do the classes that were mandatory. And then I started school in the fall. Okay. Coming back like after having not spoken to your parents in nine months, you had nine months worth of stories. How did your parents go about asking you questions about how did they navigate getting filled in on this major gap they now had in your life? They didn't. We didn't. I mean, I was, as we kind of chatted about before, I was interviewed by the two psychiatrists,

and then I know they went and talked to my parents. I don't know how detailed they told them, what they told them, but I know that they told them enough. Oh, okay. But we didn't, like, I didn't want to talk about it. And so my parents were just like, we're here. If you ever want to talk about it, like, we're here for you. If you don't want to talk about it, that's okay, too.

Do you think that's the best approach? I mean, that was for me. Yeah. Your foundation is doing all kinds of really awesome work and things from having a platform for victims to share their stories, self-defense classes, which I find, like, particularly really, like, what a great resource. Yeah. What's the best way people can support the work that you're doing?

I'd say, of course, follow us on social media, check out our website. We have our yearly fundraiser coming up in May. Amazing. I guess I don't know when this is going to air. Soon. Pretty soon. Yeah. So, hey, donate to the fundraiser.

Yeah. So our fundraiser is May 13th. It's a garden party. My team is amazing. They're going to do like a great job. They always feel like so, I guess, humbled by them because they do so much. and they're just amazing women. I feel so lucky to have them be on my team and working as hard as they do.

Like it's such a important cause. So definitely come check out our fundraiser. Again, that's May 13th. Just follow us on our social medias. I feel like we try to. Instagram, YouTube. Instagram. I'd focus mainly on Instagram.

Okay, okay. We are on Facebook as well. And then we have our website. But I'd also encourage you just to like get educated independently. And like hopefully you know your child better than anyone else. So you will know the best way to talk to them, what they're ready for. Because everyone has a different maturity level. And you know how much your child can handle.

But don't want these conversations just happen once and never revisit them. Make them a regular part of your life. I think communication is probably one of the most important things. you can have as a parent, as someone trying to change, someone trying to teach, make sure that your child feels like they can always tell you, that they're not going to be scared to tell you. And I guess the number one thing that I think that is the absolute most important thing, any parent can teach their child is to let them know that they are loved unconditionally.

That's great. That's beautiful. Perfect note to end on. And also check out your book too. I feel like it can reach anyone, survivors of any kind, and anyone that just is going through a hard time, finding resilience. And so much of your story has impacted me for years. So it's very cool to have this conversation with you. And I'm really glad that we also got to share it with all of the listeners here.

I just feel so inspired. I mean, I think everyone at some point goes through hard things in their life and to hear your story and through the horror and trauma that you've been through and to see you come out on the other side as a victor and stronger and all. this post-traumatic growth, which is just incredible. I think it's just it's an inspiration for everybody. So thank you so much for doing what you do. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Of course.