The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Growing up Duggar, 19 Kids and Counting, and cutting my dad out of my life w/ Amy Duggar King & Dillon King

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

Amy Duggar King — known to many from her time on 19 Kids and Counting — joins Matt & Abby for an honest conversation about her childhood, her relationship with the Duggar family, and the personal choices that shaped her adult life. She talks through the contract that pulled her into reality TV, the influence of IBLP, and what it was really like to grow up adjacent to such a household. Amy also reflects on her complicated relationship with her father, the moment she knew things had to change, and the peace she found in setting boundaries. Her new book ties these experiences together, and she shares what she hopes readers take away from it. This episode is sponsored by Ka'Chava, Zocdoc, Revolve & Aura Frames. Ka'Chava: Go to https://kachava.com and use code UNPLANNED for 15% off your next order. Zocdoc: Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to http://Zocdoc.com/UNPLANNED to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. Revolve: Shop at http://REVOLVE.com/UNPLANNED and use code UNPLANNED for 15% off your first order. #REVOLVEpartner Aura Frames: Exclusive $35 off Carver Mat at https://on.auraframes.com/UNPLANNED . Promo Code UNPLANNED Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Our code unplanned still works year-round for 20% off. And if you get a post-purched survey, be sure to mention you heard about cozy earth right here. Give the gift of comfort that lasts beyond the holidays and carries you into a cozy new year. My uncle used to be like, this is Amy in shoes born out of wedlock. You introduced you like that? I wore jeans for heaven's sakes. I mean, I was a walking sin. What was filming shiny happy people like?

It was eye opening for me. He didn't know half the things. I got the biggest, like, education of the IVLP during them. They don't teach the word abuse. They literally teach that women. should stay meek, mild, and silent. In my heart of heart, I kind of knew that something was off. I reached out to my uncle, and I just said, hey, is she okay?

Holman just showed up at our house, asking us questions about your son. What the heck is going on? We sat down with Amy Dugger King and her husband Dylan from the hit TV show 19 kids in counting. As a Dugger, Amy was exposed to the cult-like teachings of the IBLP and opened up about it in a recent Amazon documentary. And in her new book, Holy Disruptor, she unpacks her childhood. We talk about her rough relationship with her uncle Jim Bob, not getting paid for her involvement in the TV show, and her decision to cut her father out of her life all on today's episode. Amy Dugger King and Dylan King, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

We're really excited to be here and talk to you guys. I'm excited as well. I was watching a documentary that you guys were in two years ago, shiny happy people, and was just like blown away by what I was hearing because some of the stuff when it comes to IBLP, when it comes to, you know, Colts in America, like I just grew up not thinking that was like even a thing. I think my eyes, yeah, my eyes were really open to just some stories that I hope we can talk about today and hopefully it helps some people that might be like disentangling leaving a cult or having a family member and they're working through something like that. but yeah what was uh what was filming shiny happy people like when amazon prime calls you you answer

that phone call um so it was just like hey we're working on this documentary we'd love for you to be a part of it um i think it was eye opening i think it was liberating i think it helped a lot of people i think it's still helping a ton of people it was opening for me yes he didn't know half the things like the biggest like education like dump of the iVLP during that whole entire show so you had no idea. I mean, I knew a little bit, obviously, from like her, her family, that kind of thing, but they're asking questions, and I was like, like, so like, if you're watching it, like, my expressions of me

being, like, being like, what? They do that? That's real. I'm not, that's not faking. Like, that's, like, I learned stuff through shooting the show, like, in the moment. Wow. So even like, even like, I, like, we went back after we got, after everything was done, we went back and actually watched it. Okay. And I watched it and going, what?

Like, where was that at? Like, how did that happen? So, like, it was a massive education for me. And Amy fill people in because when I first saw your book came out, I was like, wait, I thought all the Duggers had Jane names. Like, where did, where did Amy come from? So, like, kind of fill people in on, like, your relation to the family and how, like, how you were on the show back in the day. Yeah, so I am the cousin, my maiden name growing up in elementary school and all that was Amy Dugger. And then I was on the show kind of by accident.

And I talk about that in my book, but basically I was asked, I'll just, do me to tell you the story? Yeah, yeah. Fill us in. Okay. So my grandma invited me to the house. I was going to pick her up for an appointment. And she was like, no, no, no, you need to come inside. You know, I need you in here.

Well, it was when they were filming, the camera was going on, all the things. And I've always stayed away from, you know, all that. It's just, that's their life. Do you know, I understand? Like, I never wanted to really be a part of it, never asked, nothing like that. and so I walked in and it was when my uncle was asking who wants to be the chaperone for Josh and Anna and in that moment I mean can I just be honest they're they're like grown adults they don't need a babysitter right I mean you don't need a babysitter if you're like going to be engaged right

yeah and so I kind of like laughed a little bit I kind of was just like and I just I could not help it and the producer noticed it and he was like who are you and I was like I'm amy I'm just trying to get to grandma's room. And he was like, huh, why don't you jump on camera? And that's really how the whole thing began. Which is wild. So when you first started filming on the show and making appearances, you weren't like under contract. There wasn't anything signed. It was just like, you're on the show. And then all that like legal stuff happened after the fact. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was on the show for probably about a month before it ever dawned on me like, oh, wait a second. I need to probably sign something or whatever. And so.

So, yeah, a contract was sent my way, and I signed it kind of blindly. So I want to say you've spoken about that contract and what you signed. It seemed, from what I read and heard, you didn't really know what you were signing. When did you find out what the contract actually said? Yeah, I signed it. I trusted my uncle thinking that, like, he would have my best interest at heart. You know, I was young. I couldn't afford a lawyer, that kind of thing.

And I knew that he's already dealt with contracts. and he was just so well-spoken and full of wisdom and that kind of thing, that I was like, okay, this is going to be, you know, he's going to have really good insight and great advice. And I think it could have gone a little better because what I signed, what I signed was no payment at all for my being involved in it. And that I would just film whenever they needed to be. Whoa. So there were times where you were like asked to film when you were like, I had other plans.

Like I wasn't planning on being at the house this day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it definitely, there was like a schedule. Like I think on Tuesdays and Thursdays were like the days that, you know, we did interviews. Then we filmed and that kind of thing. But there was trips. I mean, there was trips that lasted a week or two weeks sometimes.

And in those moments, they're like, we need you. And I'm like, okay. And so, which was crazy because I couldn't really keep a. like a full-time job, but I was a nanny on the side. And so I worked with like 20 different families in the area who understood my crazy life. And so I could just leave at a drop of the hat and then come back and help them whenever I was back. So it worked out. But I mean, yeah, there was there was some times where I was like, how am I going to like pay for gas to even get to the house?

How did you find out that you weren't getting paid for the show? Like did you know when you signed that contract that you knew there was no payment at all? I didn't know until maybe like a week later. Okay. And I just started to like, I don't even remember how it happened. I was talking to my grandma one day. And I was just like, I don't think this is a good thing that I signed. And so she had a lawyer look at it, a family friend.

And they were like, oh, yeah, this is way more involved than you thought. Yeah. Was someone from the network involved in the signing or was it simply just your family that was involved and here's the paperwork. Yeah, they sent it over. They, like, emailed, like, the network emailed over. And then my uncle, you know, presented it to me, that kind of thing. Yeah.

And I'll be honest, the network was great. They really were great people to work with, and I really enjoyed it. But at the same time, I probably should have hired a lawyer to look at the contract. Well, I would say, like, it's not in the network. Like, even the network, like, if you read, like, Jill's book. Yeah. Yeah, which was amazing. She kind of breaks it down, too.

Like, like, the whole thing is, like, the network was doing. what agreement they had with like gym bob right so like they sent the stuff to gym bob gave it to all the different kids yeah obviously going through jill's book it's now kind of public that that didn't happen right jim bob never passed anything down to the kids okay so kind of the same format that happened with her like yeah see it's like hey here's the deal like you either get casted or you have papers that basically like you sign like a release form for me on the show got she got a contract basically that was casted yeah which went to jim bob and the jim bob you know to the kids yeah yeah tell me more about shiny happy people as well because i think at least from

from from from my generation and like people my age like i would say like that was like a big realization of what happened on the show learning about how the show essentially promoted iBLP teachings um talk to me more about about that or maybe fill people in on you know people out there that don't know what that is yeah um so iBLP is um a teaching they have a leader named Bill Gothard, there's a lot of good things in the IBLP, if I'm going to be really honest with you. There's a lot of good things as far as like, you know, home and being family oriented and just loving each other. And there's a lot of stuff like that. But what they don't teach and the things that are scary is that they don't teach like the word abuse. They don't teach

like if someone is, you know, hurting you or disrespecting you don't speak up. They literally teach that women should stay meek, mild, and silent. And so when someone already has that in their family origin, something's going on with the brother or a dad or a grandpa or whatever, they're taught not to say anything. And so, and they're not allowed to get counseling. So let's say something does happen. Wait, there's no counseling. Yeah, no, they don't believe in like outside counseling. They believe that you have to talk to like an IBLP member and you have to talk within your circle because the outside world is scary and harmful and sinful and that could lead you away from God. And so it's just really sad if there's already like someone that has a, you know, a really big problem

and they do something that is going to hurt someone, right? And it's emotional abuse, it's physical abuse, it's sexual abuse. It could be anything. And if it isn't talked about, then it's shame, it's guilt. And, you know, someone is just broken. So, Amy, growing up, you weren't a part of the IVLP, but you saw your cousins, your family that was, how did your parents talk to you about that? Yeah, my mom is the one that was just like, hey, listen, like what they do over in this house

is what they do. But we love them and, you know, we respected. I respected it growing up, you know, I, it was a whole different kind of world. It really was, you guys. there was classical music playing kids are playing chess um he never went over it's actually so dope though like you walk you walk into a house

it's like this big compound this whole family they're listening to classical music it's play one of the kids is playing it on the piano but it's that app like people would be playing piano and like singing hymns wait that's actually so dope it was so cool it was so relaxing it was so relaxing

and so it was just like wow like people live like this is amazing Wait, why do I love the idea of teaching her kids how to play instruments that we can, we can just make music. People come to our house. It doesn't start like that, babe. But like, you don't want 19 of them. Well, if you want, but. I mean, maybe you do.

Obviously, that we have two kids and I'm like, the more kids we have, we have two and they get along so well. So fingers cost that like always stays that way. But like I would love to have a big family. Like it just, it seems like a party, you know. it oh and it was there was a lot of good moments that's what makes it hard yeah is that it was like it was a lot of like gray moments and like really happy moments and like funny moments and like sliding down a political sign on the hill like in the snowy hill like using the political signs it's like the sled wait wait like the opposite political sign yeah oh my god wait i've never heard of that

that's actually hilarious they're very slick and they work very well wow i can imagine yeah that actually You can bend them up into a pretty, like, a racing slay. Oh, my God. Yes, you really can't. Yeah, you can go really fast. So, like, you just grew up spending a lot of time with your cousins. And you knew them really, like, were they the closest people to you as a child, would you say? Or would you have, like, other family that was closer?

Yeah, no, definitely they were the closest. But the thing is, is that we were all in a room. We would spend so much time together. We had, you know, tons of trips, all the stuff. But it was more surface level. Okay. It wasn't really heartfelt. We never really talked about the things we were struggling with or, you know, you

you know, what God was doing in our life or whatever it would be. It just wasn't ever talked about. It was more of just like what's, you know, what the show was doing and, you know, just how's the weather and I like your skirt and that kind of stuff. I guess like the IBLP teachings those too. Like they teach like if you're not in that circle, they keep you at arm's league reach. Yeah. Right?

Like you're not in the circle. Yeah. Because it's like a club. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's a club. And we're not in the club. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like being like out of the club. and maybe, you know, I'm guessing you might have, like, yeah, listen to music that they weren't allowed to listen to or, you know, dressed in a certain way that they didn't dress. Did your cousins ever ask you questions growing up about, like, why you lived differently than they did? No, not necessarily. I think they all knew that, like, I was considered the wild one.

Okay. Like, literally my title on the show was Crazy Cousin Amy. As you know, Abby. Yeah. how did you get that title like I have no idea how I received that title I watched the show one night and it popped up by my name and I was like oh my word what is this yeah yeah I had no idea because I'm not wild and I'm not that crazy like it literally it literally said like the words on the screen were crazy cousin amy yeah like rather than just like Amy in parentheses cousin yeah right interesting do you think do you think it was like a producer that was like okay this is a fun way to market this person Maybe. I mean, I definitely had like a bubbly personality. And like it was very like it was very different compared to like my cousins who, you know, did they just live differently than me. Yeah. But I wasn't like you can take wild in any kind of way, right? I mean, that could be like, oh, she's trouble. She's wild. We pray for her soul. You know, that kind of thing. Or it could be like she's fun. You can take wild in all kinds of different ways. And so I didn't really like that title too much because I was just like, what about like, you know, fun? namey or something. Yeah, but your upbringing was totally different from your cousins, right?

It's completely different. Because like you said, you had the last name Dugger growing up, which was, correct me from wrong, your mom's name. That was something that took me while to understand. I was confused about all that. Yeah, a lot of people think that I changed my name to Dugger in order to like be more liked or to have more fame or popularity. And I'm like, this is just if I'm made a name. Like, I can't do anything about it. it. I can't change that, you know, but people, they're going to think what they want, you know. That's just part of it. You just said it straight. Okay. I said it straight. You got to post like a birth certificate photo. Right. Here's the proof, people. I'm not making this up. This is my actual

name. Yes. Yes, exactly. Well, her mom had Amy out of wedlock. And so her mom, Deanna, is Jim Bob's sister. Okay. That's where the Dugger name is at. God. So when Amy was born, Deanna wasn't married to the man, obviously. And so you naturally would take your mother's last name. Right. That's how that's why she has the dougar last name. And my mom and dad dated for like 22 years, you guys. And yeah, yeah.

And so by the time that they got married, I was senior year in high school. And they, I mean, I wasn't going to have another name change, you know. So I was like, I'll just wait until I get married to change it again. Totally. That would be where. I actually knew somebody in high school who changed their name. And it threw me off because I was like, why would you want to, like, why would you want to do that? Three different names.

Like, yeah, no. Yeah. That's just, yeah. I think they, like, they were officially adopted by their stepdad, which is, like, cool for them. But I was like, if that were me, I would have just like, hey, it's probably going to, I mean, I guess as a guy, my name wouldn't change. I think I also matters your relation to your father or your, like, stepfather at that point, which. See, I had a buddy that changed his name because his father, like, they did not get along at all. shoot yeah and like it was so bad like his dad moved to a different state and he was like

I don't even want the same name as him gosh and so he changed his name back I mean back in I guess you can change your name to whatever right I think you can legally if you want to your last name I think there's a friend's episode about it I don't know why you can you just apply for it yeah yeah that's just something that's never crossed my mind it's true it's no different than like right in your birth to take it for your kid it's kind of like a big screw to your family you just make it whatever I guess you can I that was actually my next question was like, did you, did you change your name? But no, you just, that was your on the book. People put Amy Dugger King. Okay. Um, because that was how people associated me with.

Got it. Got it. But my middle name is Rochelle. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I don't, yeah, so like, Amy Dugger King is kind of everywhere, I guess, right now. But I'm like, that makes sense. Okay. So, well, we debated when, when you did your book, whether it was going to be Amy King. Yeah. Amy Dugger King. Yeah. And like, I mean, basically he came down. to like one conversation with the PR team all that and they're like yeah everyone knows you as Amy Dugger yeah that's how they know you yeah so I was like okay I get that though I still I'll see people post on like Facebook or Instagram from high school and I'm like who is this person I'm like their last name changed I'm like I'm like are you serious and I'm like oh that's right

they got married like that's how this works thank you to Kachava for sponsoring this portion of today's episode this season is chaotic for everyone I think everyone's like how you doing and I'm always like busy, and I just sound like such a dad. Would I say that? Why a dad? I don't know. I just feel like that's the dad standard answer to that question. But it's true.

There's so much going on. And I feel like something that I really rely on during this type of season is a breakfast I can count on. And I have been having Kachava every single morning because Kachava makes getting whole body nutrition easier during the holiday chaos. I'm a big fan of the chai flavor. They also have it in vanilla as well as, isn't there like a coconut one that you drink? I have every day, coconut asaii. Coconut asa'i. And that's your favorite flavor?

That's my favorite right now. I like a lot of them. They have some unique ones like Matt saying chai. I don't see that a lot, but it's really good. And what I like about the coconut assay is it makes well with water. Kachava is a whole body meal with plant-based protein that actually tastes delicious. With every two scoops of kachava, you get 85 plus superfoods, nutrients, and plant-based ingredients. Yes, enjoy 25 grams of 100% plant-based protein in any of their six indulgent flavors.

chocolate vanilla chai macha coconut assayi and strawberry if you're looking for a plant-based protein trust me we've tried a lot this is the way to go calm the holiday chaos go to kachava dot com and use code unplanned for 15% off your next order that's kachava k a va dot com code unplanned for 15% off i didn't have a problem changing my name i was i was excited for it i was like and i loved my family too i didn't have this i didn't have that conflict that some people feel like They're like, I love my family and I want to still have this, like, connection, but they understood. I think they knew that I was always going to change it. Yeah.

I was going to say I don't care, but then I heard what you said about the whole one-name thing, and I kind of like that now. Yeah. I feel like there's, like, a level of respect that happens when, like, you're just like, I love you enough that, like, now we are a family. Right. You know? Right. I think that's special. And it's sweet for your kids then, too.

They have, like, their family name that they're a part of it, and it's not like, I'll have to pick mom or dad. or anything like that would be a little bit strange or I guess you choose it for my birth because you got to give them a name yeah yeah yeah then who the kids go with yeah I know that would be hard dude I know in Latin American families I think they do a hyphenated one like I think they have both

yeah they have a very long name they do yes which kind of awesome that's actually that's really cool too yeah I like you have to sign it so you know you have to like a year you can imagine if you like became famous and then you have to like sign that long name no that's why they all go with nicknames oh yeah very good

Oh, my goodness. Okay, so your parents dated for 22 years. They didn't, they didn't get married until you were senior in high school. And you had a very different upbringing than your cousin. So, like, talk to me about that. What was, what was your childhood like? What was it like, you know, being raised? It is even interesting hearing you describe, like, your mom had you out of wedlock. Like, that phrase is not one that you hear a lot. I know. It's a total dougar phrase. If I'm going to be really honest with you. That's what they used to call it. My uncle used to be like, this is Amy and she was born out of wedlock. What else do you call that?

Wait, she would introduce you like that's how I've always known. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's how I've always known. Why would you need to say that though? I guess it's like it's kind of a cat. I don't know. Maybe that's an old traditional thing.

Like when you have kids, you have kids with the person you're married to and you don't. Like I don't know. We have friends that have kids and they like we've interviewed people on this podcast that they have children together but they're not married. And so like if I were to introduce them to someone, I would just be like, Hey, this person, this is our friends, blank and blank, and this is their kid. They had no bad of wedlock. I wouldn't be like, they had their kids without getting married.

Like, I wouldn't lead with that, you know? Yeah. I guess it makes sense, though, in like the sense of what we're talking about. Because then it would get kind of confusing why her name was Dugger versus her father's name of, last name of Jordan, right? Yeah. I guess if you say out of wedlock, then it makes more sense because if you were married, I guess traditionally you would just think you would, like, the man's last name, right?

Like, maybe, I don't know. I don't know. The reason I pointed out is just. it feels like it's attaching you to like a perceived sin by them like always and i just wonder what that's like growing up just being like here i am i might not i'm technically not supposed to be here like what does that feel like did you feel that way am i just perceiving it this i love you um no i felt that way several times you know here i am they're they've got such a wonderful life um and i'm just like hey like i'm just the wilder

card over here um so yeah it was definitely odd and i just kind of i've always been different and but different's not bad you know um but yeah it's been it's been a wild red it's been a wild red yeah i just that is just such a that's something that stands out to me because it is something that you don't hear a lot and i just wonder what it's like like living your life like attached with this like thing that you're like i wasn't even like part of this i was just born in this circumstance But then you're also compared with, like, quote-unquote, idyllic, like, family structure, family standards. And I guess comparison would be something that I would imagine

would be, like, a struggle through that. Yeah, no, it definitely was. How could it not be? Right. Okay. I mean, my mom and dad, they had the most roller coaster relationship. There was, I mean, I cannot even tell you how many fights and how really unhealthy it was.

And not even just that, but it also became, like, threats and emotional abuse, and there was just a lot going on. So I would go over there for like a safe haven, really, and kind of feel like, okay, I can breathe here, you know? And yeah, in those moments, it's like, man, like, what did I get? Like, this is so nice, you know? I mean, like you said, like the classical music and the kids playing, and no one argued, no one was allowed to, no one slammed doors,

no one got mad, no one could get angry or, you know, throw anything. kind of attitude whatsoever. And so it was just like, wow, this is so nice over here. So that's how I grew up. Just they knew me, they loved me, but they kind of kept me like, we love, we love you, you know, kind of thing. Because I wasn't necessarily just like them. I wore jeans for heaven's sakes. I mean, I was a walking sin. Did you wear jeans to their house? I did. Okay. I did. There was a couple times that when I was younger, they would, they would ask me to wear skirts. And I did. I've tried on panel looms, before.

I've tried on one of their swimsuit jumpsuits before. We've done our research. We know. What panell looms? I had no idea. They're like the skirts they can wear in the pool, right? No, no. The panel looms are like pirate cottony pants that you wear underneath your skirts that they did.

Why would that be necessary? That was my question. Why would you wear pants under the skirts? Because they need more coverage. Whoa. Yeah. Because the skirt's already down to their ankles already. I didn't even realize that was a thing.

I guess when you think about like Pirates of the Caribbean, you know. Right. I didn't know what it was either. Right there, the cottony little billowy. So you actually wore those in real life sometimes? Well, I mean, when I was little, yes. Just to like appease my family and to show that I, you know, I do respect their values and their rules. Which is dope.

But there was a lot of them. There was a lot of rules. This is reminding me of my grandma. Yeah. My grandma married married and. her brother-in-law and all of their, like, side of the family were Mennonite. You said your grandma married her brother-in-law. Wait, no, my grandma got married and her brother-in-law, after marriage.

Yeah, was there a man-a-night? Men-a-night. So they're like, the Amish thing. Yeah, yeah, Amish. Yeah. Okay, you would do the same thing as Amy. Right. And then she was kind of like, okay, we all know that, like, at my heart, I'm not, like, I'm not, we're not prescribing to the same types of, like, convictions here.

And so she's like, I, I'm going to give this up. everyone are we okay with this and i do remember she told me she was like it was like a little bit of a weighty decision to like then just like express myself what felt like true and right for me when everyone else had like a different standard for themselves and i think i think that's dope like i think it's cool maybe at first to respect the the values but at the same time like you're your own individual i know it's like not really the same thing but when i went to turkey recently i visited a mosque and like they asked out of respect for the mosque because it's a religious place to wear like i wore a skirt inside the mosque as a man um but like yeah

Yeah, someone's house isn't a religious, like, you know, place. It felt like it. Oh, but it did. Oh, but it did. Okay. It felt like it. You're, I was holier than thou at times. Well, that's how you, I mean, your mom would make you, you couldn't wear jeans to your family.

Yeah, but I do remember. We gave that one up too. So you eventually started wearing jeans. I wore jeans and they had holes in them. So it was really. So did you spend, like, did you spend, like, time like, like, with Minenonite? Holidays, yeah. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, that's actually, that's. I'm still in Qaeda. But how would have the food? How was the food? I was going to be. Wait, why are we not in your men's-in-a-knit families? Because they literally all they do is like cook, right? They had amazing food.

I bet they're in, I bet. There's a restaurant. It is so good. Their food was amazing. Not hungry. There's a restaurant going towards Oklahoma that's like an Amish, like full-blown restaurant. And every time we drive to Oklahoma, we stop in there and eat because it's always good. I bet it's amazing.

They're corn. They're bread. They're bread. And the people are. always so nice, right? Like, I don't know. Special seeds. Their corn, their dessert.

I don't know, unless you've seen like the whole Amish Mafia TV show like those guys. Hey, keep that. That's a whole different thing. We're not talking about that. They're nice people. That's right. They are.

They are. There's always good people in all groups. No, so, yeah, I definitely felt like holier than thou. I definitely felt like, oh, she's wearing. I remember the first time I wore jeans over there and I was like, I'm doing it. This, here we go.

Like, walking in the door like I can do all things you know and just being real you know I don't like fake I would have been so intimidated doing that oh I would have just kept wearing the skirts yeah I don't want to see you on skirt no I don't want to see what a skirt either well if you look at my video of me getting a hair transplant turkey I definitely wore skirt there I did I did yeah oh my goodness at respect yeah that's right that's good well that's good you could watch that video no okay it's It's like, it's fine. Dang it, sorry.

I mean, I've rocked a kilt before. You have homework now. I know, maybe I saw. Can you kind of like a skirt? It's like a manly skirt, but yeah. I've done the kilt. You've worn the kilt? I've worn the kilt.

I don't, I have married for 10 years and I never knew that. I want to talk about you introducing him to this scene. Oh, dear Lord. I don't, I've heard some of the story, but like, did you, had you known about the IVLP before you met Amy? Okay. No. He didn't know.

really anything about me. He met me when I was filming. We met at a bar. Just mutual friends. You were filming at the time? I was filming. I was, I know. Did they have any episodes of you at the bar? That would have been so hard. It's like, meanwhile, crazy company.

Oh, that's what you meant. I thought that's what you meant. No, no, no, no, no. Meanwhile, he was taking shots at the bar. That would have been such a good spinoff show, though. Like, can be real? Let me tell you. Like, the contrast in family, Like, you got the, everyone's playing piano, looking to classic music, and you're over here at a bar, like, drinking shots, meeting, meeting your husband. It's in the book, man.

The first time we met, I, I insulted her. She was like, whoa, and I was like, let's get shots. And that's how it started. I was like, okay. That's how it started. We actually were, like, best friends for, like, six years. So when I came to, like, you know, dating him and I was like, okay, it's kind of getting serious. Maybe you should meet my family.

We were at this, like, rock and bowl place. It was, like, glow bowling. There was. There was, yeah, it was called Fast Lanes. And there was, all my cousins were bowling and they don't dance, right? They do not. They don't move their body in that way in any kind of way. We've talked about Dugger weddings before.

Yeah. We actually, it was really fun when we were hanging with Ginger and Jeremy. We were closing them on like just movies everyone in the U.S. I saw that episode. I laughed so hard. It was so much fun. Yes. Yeah.

They're great. She didn't know the Wizard of Oz. Yeah. We're like, that's so clean. That's sinful. You got to show your kids. The Wizard of Oz. You should ask about our wedding.

Because that's her side of the family left our wedding very quickly when we flipped the switch. We can talk about it. We can talk about it. We'll get back. So when he first met them, he walked in and there was some music playing whatever. And they all, so he walked in and he was like, hey, like dancing and just cracking up. I didn't know the rules. They all were looking his way and literally turned their backs and like did not say.

Dominoes just back turns and I was like and he was like what did I do what did I do I was ignorant I had no idea so you didn't prepare him at all I did say nothing I let him sink or swim and he let me walk right to the deep in and I dread okay you got to you did him dirty though I feel like if I would have met your Mennonite family you'd have been like okay Matt you're not you're not taking your shirt off okay yeah the shirt stays on I might have been in the middle of the dance circle at her homecoming She did nothing. When we just started dating, she would have been like, Matt, like, I want you to be on your best. There was one time that you guys, he, another time he went to the house and one of the little girls was like, what's your favorite color? And I'm sitting across from him at the table. Their most sinful color ever.

And he was like black. Okay, why is black your favorite color? Okay. Very, okay, so I've played guitar since I was in early teens. my dad has always had a hot rod shop right so anything from like classic muscle cars to guitars to anything that it's like man stuff you got a point

I race motorcycles so all the different things that I like and interested in like black's just a good looking color on it I agree like a blacked out 68 Camaro is like black that's it like he just really likes that color anyway it's like matte black all the things and so the little girl right that's my thing like black everything out. Just black it out. It's all good. So the little girl was like,

and he was like, what? Black looks good on all kinds of things. And I kept kicking him underneath the table. And I was like, quit. And he's like, what, what? And he's not good at like catching up on like the things. I am. I'm just very blunted about it.

I'm like, just tell me what I'm doing wrong. I don't care for sitting here. He cannot pick up on like my little like, stop. He's like, what? What are you trying to say? Anyway, and so literally, um, he goes, black is sexy. black and sexy and I was like oh Lord you just made it way worse yes again she walked me right into

moradorf I'm so sad I'm a Lord of the Rings walk me right in there without saying nothing man so you were never invited back to the house after that well honestly that's when kind of the scandals took place oh no and so they don't really know Dylan um like I know Dylan I don't think they would know me regardless well you know because they keep they keep even you at arm's elite reach yeah Yeah. And I know what opinion they have with me. So they're definitely, they're keeping me of like two or three arms length. It's okay. I'm married right. I'm married right. Yeah. I just hate that so much. Like it just makes me sad for like all that to be public and then for people to be talking about it. And then just like, oh, it's just awful. I hate that. It's been really, really crazy and really sad. And there's been a lot of stuff that's gone on. So yeah, I kind of just, I'm just real in my book. You know, I'm just like, here's all. all the crap and here's how I've healed and here's how life goes on you know the door's always open

I even put that in my book there's a little note that I left to my cousins and I just said you know if you're you're ever interested in really getting to know the real me like I'm always here for you so you didn't feel like they ever got to really know who you are who Amy is really feel like it no I mean on the show we were doing all kinds of funny things and they had me doing you know I mean I was riding in a dump truck with bagels all over me, feeding, you know, animals, zoo animals and jumping out of, I don't know, a plane, and riding a pig and doing crazy stuff all the time because that was my character. Yeah.

That they didn't really get to see, like, I think, my true heart. Yeah. Thank you to Zoc Doc for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Recently, I needed to get a refill on my ADHD medication. And you know where I went, guys? I went to Zococ. Every time. Yep.

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kind of backing herself away kind of having some more boundaries set with the family and he said to me um you know you need to reach out to jill i i think she's kind of going down maybe a wrong path and you guys need to maybe you can reach out and connect with her um because he already thinks i'm probably on a wrong path anyway, you know. And so I reached out one day and I was just like, hey, I'm here. If you ever need to talk, I'm here, whatever you need. And she was like, hey, cuz, do you know where the nearest, like, tattoo parlor is? Which one would you recommend? And I was like, what? And I called her. And we just really connected on a lot of things. Did you guys get tattoos together? No, but I would love to. Jill, you hear that. I hope she's watching. Did you know that we have matching, what tattoos?

We have tattoos too. We have matching ones. You guys got matching ones? We do. Where? So, okay, it says rest in the storm. Yeah, mine's up here. And his is on his forearm. It says, yeah, rest in the storm. That's so cool. Yeah.

I'm actually thinking about getting another one because this is really sad. We don't have to talk about this. But yeah, we lost our daughter two months ago. And I have to think about maybe getting a tattoo to remember her. And so my dad and I was going to say, Jill reached out. I would do it. That's sweet. I think that would go.

I love that. Jill reached out at that time, like right after she heard the news and she had like so many resources for us, which was really incredible. Yeah. So, so nice of her to think of us at that time, for sure. She's the sweetest. I actually asked her what, like, I gave you guys a little gift beforehand. And she was like, get them something that, you know, was small and like, you know,

something they would love. And like, so, yeah, she kind of helped me with that. That was so nice. That was really sweet. Just, yeah, we, I can never imagine that pain. And I'm truly so sorry of what you guys have gone through. Thank you. Yeah.

And I will say all of the. Duggers, we know, reached out at that time, which was very sweet. No, yeah, you're right. Every single, every single one. Like so, so much empathy and kindness. I was really sweet. I was probably traveling, but I am here now. Oh, yeah.

No, we had to meet you. Seriously, thank you so much. No. Yeah. Thank you for giving us a gift. That was very thoughtful. No. Yeah.

I guess, I guess my question is, you know, so you're, now that you're hanging out with Jill and you guys have like this friendship, what, like, what are you learning from that? What is that taught you? Oh, my word. Cousinship is so much. fun. Like we can joke around and laugh and we have inside jokes. And just to know that like my child, our child, our child is, um, is safe in their presence and that their kids have spent

the night with us. And like we, you know, take care of them and love them and know, you know, what they like and the hobbies they have and all of that. It's just so, it's just a different way of living compared to really what we had growing up. And so it's actual like true like true family talk to me about how long it's been since you've seen maybe other family members like your uncle or your aunt or your other cousins because you and now that you and jill are hanging like have you reached out or talk to any of them recently as well um no unfortunately like so when the scandals the last scandal happened and it was just so heartbreaking um i realized i needed to have boundaries set with my family and the situation because of the lies and

things that were told. And it's nothing against my cousins. It's just, it's one of those things that, like, if I don't want to ride a fence, you know, like, I'm not one of these that's going to, like, oh, I love you and them and everything's great, because it's not, you know, like, I believe that anyone that lies to you, like, doesn't value you and doesn't respect you. And they're, you know, that's not, it's a character flaw. That's a character flaw. Let's be honest. And so, unfortunately, I have not seen them in years. When you say lies, are you talking about, like, cousins, your uncle? Yeah, so when the scandals, like, took place, I was told by my uncle that there was no

true to the stories, there was no truth at all, there was no problems. And I talk about it, and there's a pattern that you see in my book of all the things that's gone down, and he's maybe omitted or not told the entire truth when asked. And it's been eye to eye, it's been in text messages, it's been in all kinds of ways. And so it's just like, man, like someone who has the inability to tell the truth is not someone I really need in my inner circle, you know? Did you ever tell your uncle that you were writing this book or did you ever like talk with him or was there anything, no?

No, for me, my healing journey. That process went really, actually pretty quick. Yeah, my healing journey is like, is my own, you know? Like, yeah, they're a part of the story. But it's not like a tell-all dougar book, you know? I mean, it's my entire story from before I was born until now. And I really talk about, like, generational trauma and how to break, like, just toxic cycles within a family unit. And so, yes, they're mentioned.

Yes, there's things that's gone on that's shaped who I am. But, I mean, they're not the entire story, you know. Yeah. Okay, I want to know more about that because I know there's a lot of good stuff in your book. Like, what can you share about maybe those toxic cycles? and how you were able to overcome them? I think for me, you know, I rely heavily on my faith, and I believe that, like, God is not the author of confusion.

And I believe when there's chaos, when there's tension, when there's lies, when there's cover-ups, when no one can really speak truth, that's a huge red flag that something is off. And I believe that you have to just trust your basic instinct. you know I feel like your body will tell you when something is off you know you get that like hunch of like something feels off you know and and so for me I've just had to like work through a lot I've had to forgive people that's never asked for forgiveness I've had to just have boundaries

and learn you know the importance of it in order to keep you know my mental health do it you know I'm okay keep our marriage strong and keep my son safe so it's it's been a It's been a journey. I want to ask, so growing up with a really turbulent relationship, it sounds like, with your father, did it ever make you think, like, I don't ever want to get married? Like, I don't ever want to, like, repeat that, I don't want, were you attached, attaching your experience with your father to, like, a potential husband ever? Because I feel like I've heard of people struggling with that before, where it's like,

you have this example. That's part of, like, the generational cycle that we're talking about. Like, it's almost like, like, an abuse at home. you kind of look for the same abuse when you get older or your mindset is like that's the norm and it's okay and it's not okay you know what I mean yeah or someone will like date someone and be like well it's not as crazy as it used to be you know like that's not good answer either yeah yeah yeah but seriously they'll be like oh like this abuse is different from like what I've experienced and so you know it's all right because it's not as bad as it used to be kind of thing for me um no I always

wanted to be married I'm a relationship type of girl And I'm faithful. And so for me, it was just like, I don't know. I knew that like better existed. I just didn't realize it was my best friend of six years. He was hiding underneath my nose the entire time. I know in your book you talk a lot about your dad, your relationship with him. What was it that made things not good at home growing up?

Oh, goodness. Anyone that has narcissistic abilities, if you will, gosh. you're never right um you can never express your feelings when you do um my dad had a fire that he kept burning at all times like a smoldering fire and he would throw things that should never be in the trash you know he would make them burn and so necklaces clothing um dishes dish rags and anything that would set him off so it was basically like teeter tottering on eggshells um Like my entire life. Yeah, a lot of fear, a lot of fear.

And he would tell me in detail, really, of how he wanted to, like, in my life at times. So that was, that was a threat that was, like, verbally said to you. It was literally a threat. I know several ways of how he said that he would, how he would like to do. There was a verbal threat made when I was in the house. Yeah. I would have, I won't say the words I want to say right now on your podcast. But let's just say, like, I wanted to do what should be done in, like, a man's kind of mentality.

you know when you see someone like hurting somebody else. He had a broken femur. So we couldn't get up. Yeah, I was, I mean, I had a, I had a car accident not, I don't know. Early on in too. Yeah, early on. Our relationship. But I was, you know, I was laid up.

But he could move. I had a broken femur and they shoved 18 inch rod in my leg. And so I wasn't physically able to even get up to go and, and protect. Protect. Stand up, whatever, however you want to word it. But, yeah, her dad's a very. abusive person in a lot of ways yeah i'm so sorry to hear that yeah yeah it was hard it was really hard um and then i think what really is like another layer of hurt really that i've had to

heal from is that not only was my dad that way my grandpa was that way um and then feeling like my uncle was more of like a father figure at times in someone that i could look up to um really kind it turned out to not be someone that I could fully trust was really hard. I had a lot of trust issues I had to work through. Talk to me about one of those stories. You mentioned, you know, things being thrown away in the trash. Tell me, tell me more. Like, what's a story of something being thrown in the trash as a way to, I don't know,

get back at you or, I guess I'm just curious how, like, what that exactly looked like. Yeah. So it was like a ticking time bomb. um my dad i remember a time where my mom um was just in the breakfast you know just making eggs and um she burned them she wasn't paying attention she burned them and i remember he was like why can't you do anything right you know you know all the all the things you can imagine the things but ever said um and he took the pan and the eggs and he threw them in the fire he tore up the dishrag um he would break the spatula, just anything that was associated with the eggs, all the eggs would be

cracked and destroyed. It was, it would happen all the time about everything. It wasn't just one thing. My favorite necklaces, favorite clothes. Was there something that you did that made like set him off or was it just completely unprovoked? No, it was completely unprovoked. It definitely unprovoked. It definitely was just one of those things where we'd be even watching a good movie like as a family in the living room and he would get up and be like, I don't know what I'm going to do with you guys. And he would start pacing the floor, like, just very, like, evil. He's very unhealthy.

It was very just evil behavior. Was he, was he an alcoholic or was there anything with drugs? I mean, yes, he drank. I noticed that there was some, like, hidden in the closet and stuff like that. I don't know if, I don't know. I really don't know. It was just one of those things where I didn't know what everything was called either. I didn't educate myself on, like,

you know that's that's gaslighting that's love bombing that's i didn't know all the terms that you know abusers use um until later and so i just had to protect my mom growing up i protected my mom from a lot how did you do that i mean protecting your mom as a child must be pretty intimidating yeah i i took on um the burdens of like cleaning the house the way that he wanted to cooking the way that he wanted to um just making sure that i was in the car with them my my dad was known for opening the car door in the middle of a highway and just threatening to jump out, that kind of stuff. Yeah, so I was always just kind of there

try to soften the blow, you know? Yeah. Like loving my mom so much that I didn't want to give her like one ounce of pain. Well, it's also putting like a third person in the room too. Right. Because like if you look, if you do like a bunch of studying like on like people who that are abusive, most of the time they don't do it in front of

of everybody. Okay. Right? Because like, like if you were, like if someone was going to abuse somebody, like, if I thought you or someone strong enough to stand up to me, most of the time an abuser isn't going to do it because they don't want, they actually, they don't want to have that fight with you. Yeah. They want to abuse the people that they can manipulate and control easily.

Yeah. Right. And so he was able to do that, obviously, with, with Deanna. And, you know, when you throw a kid in the middle of it, it's unfortunate for that child or you, since we're talking about you. Yeah. But that's almost, it's almost like a little bit of a barrier because that person isn't going to just come right out and just abuse everybody right out in the open. Now, eventually it kind of got to that point, right?

But typically speaking, you know, if you're going to, if you're, if you are that, you, you, you, you show that to the people that you want to abuse. You don't show that to the other people. Yeah, you're charismatic. You can. Yeah, we're, were your aunt and uncle, Jim Bob and Michelle aware that this was going on? Yeah, there were times that my mom and I would leave. my dad's house and go over to my aunt and uncle's house and stay there throughout the night talking to him and just calming down, giving him time to breathe, you know, time to, you know,

just to cool things off a little bit. Yeah. And we would leave before the kids woke up. So they didn't know the turmoil going on back at our house. And I can imagine there probably was a good time to your relationship with your uncle like what what did that what did that like the good times look like yeah so the banter between my uncle and i were great um we had a lot of fun on camera oh my gosh he he's done so many so many funny things um he would feed me one time he fed me like haggis um in ireland um i did not oh my word no um he always had me doing silly things and just like he was he was funny he had a lot of a lot of good banter between us and yeah so he he loved me i think there were i think he did love me um but i also

think that he i don't know i guess in my opinion he like he kind of knew where i belonged if that makes sense you know i wasn't i was a part of the family but not intermediate you know kind of thing i also feel like me from the outside i also feel like you were used as a tool on that whole dynamic that's just my opinion but wow you know it definitely is interesting because it was, it was just a very interesting dynamic. Thank you to Revolve for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. This time of year, there are so many special and fun events going on. I'm talking holiday parties, Christmas card photos, North Pole experiences,

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one time there was a big birthday going on and their birthdays were huge you guys i mean lots of people lots of stuff and um and yeah i went to the pantry and one of the girls one of the older girls was curled up and crying um in a corner and i just knelt down and held her and And she was having a straight, like extreme panic attack. And in those moments, I was just like, oh, my goodness. And that's the first time I've ever seen anything because they're meek and mild and soft and beautiful. They're beautiful girls.

It's a beautiful family. I mean, they really are. And in that moment, I was just like, oh, my goodness. Like, here you are hurting and no one knows. And so I reached out to my uncle and I just said, hey, like, here's what I'm seeing. Like, is she okay? what's going on and he was just like oh everything's fine she would just have one a little off day but i was like she was shaking like really really terribly i was like that's that's not that doesn't seem

like just a bad day you know that's not a hang nail that's not a yeah that's that's trauma really and so um when i was asked i was just told that there was just no truth to it but it's like man did you know something was going on i you know i have my questions it's hard not to. What is it? Like you, I don't know, when you, when you mentioned like scandals and trauma, like what exactly are you like referring to when you mentioned like these really dark things that started being like talked about in the media a couple years ago? Yeah, I mean, there was like three huge ones. One was the sisters, which is devastating of Josh, taking away their innocence, as you will. And then the second one was the Ashley Madison.

Which, do you know about that one? That one was, that one was... I think there was a documentary about that whole... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Josh used my grandma's address for the login information, which is just, like, think, dude. You know, think.

Just, like, use your brain for a minute. And then the third one, I honestly, I won't really speak of because it's that devastating and that disgusting. But he deserves where he is. Gosh. Yeah. She gets so many people DM in her or, like, we'll do a live or something. And people ask all the time, I'm like, well, what's happening with this person or what's happening with that person or what's going on in the Dugger family?

We're like, guys, we don't know. We don't know. Yeah, I found out. We found everything that she just saying, like that, like what you're saying, like you learned about all that from the media. Like, you know. Yes, national television. Yeah, we learned that. Like, oh, turn on the news right now.

We're like, we just learned it. Okay. Or, oh, we saw a magazine at Walmart and found out that this was happening. like we find out just like the rest of the world because no one's talking to us which is crazy until we start reaching out like hey we heard about this is this true is there's is what's going on yeah and then kind of what to you what you're asking her like we would ask questions like why was the FBI over at the car lot or homeland security homeland security getting to the car lot what's going on right like this is kind of weird here's the rumors we're hearing what what is this

yeah and then we get answers back and the answer's like oh they're they just had to stop and get directions, and they just said hi. And we're like, how uneducated do you think we are? Homeland Security doesn't show up randomly because they're confused on where they're at. That's bizarre that you think we're going to buy that, right? And then they showed up to our house and start asking more questions about them. And then we call, and then we call again and go, yo, Homeland just showed up at our house asking us questions about your son. what the heck is going on

and then it was again swept under the rug we're told it's all good nothing happened they're just here to say hi and we're like are you guys crazy like what's are you want us to buy this

so I guess like what I'm hearing is the problem you guys were having was when you were talking to your aunt uncle about Homeland Security showing up at a dealership showing up at your house you know you just want to answers on like what actually is going on and they just pretended that there was nothing going on.

I don't like someone who is fake and someone who just can't speak truth, right? Like, just tell me. Like, you don't have to tell me all of it. But you're going to say, hey, there's some things going on in the family. Pray for us. Like, you know, some, like, it's a big deal. No, okay, I can take that, you know, and I can do something with that. When you tell me that Homeland stopped by the car lot because Josh is friends with Homeland

security. And they're having lunch and don't worry about it. They're just having a great, they're just friends. Or, oh, Homeland Security just stopped by the car lot because they need directions to the actual address of where they're actually investigating. Come on. Come on. It always changed.

Yeah, it's not just one thing, right? Yeah. I mean, like, I hear like, you know, I kind of hear like, I guess maybe like, why maybe we feel the way that we feel, right? and like it's not just one little isolated thing like the car lot right or homeland like it's it's years and years it's years of being lied to it's years of yeah it's years of when the lie actually comes to light it's swept in the rug and it's and it's belittled to us and we're talking about lies being told you're talking about Jim Bob specifically sharing this stuff yeah

I think the biggest like the most like unfortunate thing is because of that um and it's been so long now like what seven years or something it's probably longer than that now but the unfortunate part is like i can't fault the like her cousins like the kids right because it's not they're doing and we also know how like the ibop like upbrings everybody yeah when you're born into it you don't know any different and so therefore you don't know what's right or wrong because you live in that little bubble totally understand that well that's what's and also like and also in that environment too also in that environment like you kind of have like a hierarchy right like the father figure is like the one that makes all the rules he's the one that you don't he's the leader you don't he's the

leader and so we also know there's been times too where things are told to this fan oh they're stand over here they don't believe like us so we need to keep our distance because you know there's a way that maybe they could suck you into sinful whatever whatever's right so i don't i don't i don't think i'll talk for you too but we don't fault like the cousins for it because that's how they're raised and And, you know, it's just what it is. A lot of the problem is coming from more of, I guess, Jim Bob's side. Yeah. And just the level of sweeping things under the rug, the level of the lies that we've been told.

Yeah. And for, like you were saying, for just our mental health and everything else, like, we have to put a boundary in place. Who has time for that? And the bad part is you put a boundary in place, unfortunately, with this situation. You put a boundary in place with one person who is the leader in this IBLP kind of, thought process, that person goes and puts the boundary with everybody. Yeah, I guess, so now we have no, now we have no contact with anybody. Not with a lot. Other than Jill and Derrick who broke away. Okay. And some of the

other ones that are breaking away, we get to talk to them. But the other ones who haven't broken away from it. Yeah. You know, they're still underneath that control of that IBLP kind of thought process. And so that line's been drawn. So we don't, we don't have, we don't talk to any of them. Do you know? It's not because we're not to have talked to the cousins, but I don't think, and I'm really, I'm honestly kind of guessing. but I don't think that they're even allowed to talk to us from that kind of, that's the way that they've structured to how they raise their household. But what I'm, I guess what I'm hearing from you is that, you know, from reading, yeah, from talking to you guys, yeah, reading Jill's book,

Ginger's book, you know, now we have your book. It's like there's, there's so much information out there, but it seems like the common theme I'm noticing is where something, something is going wrong from, yeah, from the top down. And I guess what I'm getting about, yeah, is that that that seemed to be your uncle right like because because when i when i hear stories about um michelle she seems she seems like she shows up she showed up i want to say for jill and ginger and joy when they had their babies and like i'm like how are you showing up for your grandkids when you like that woman must be the most busy person on this planet with all the people she's taken care of like i'm sure she is she seems like a saint you know yeah she's so sweet i mean i haven't seen her in years which is so sad but at the

same time like I yeah she's she was always so so sweet yeah yeah just tender and genuine and just very kind it seems like there are more and more members of the family that are no longer part of the IPLP and it seems like a lot of people are you know realizing what their own beliefs are now you know a lot of the kids that were on the show are now adults and they're grown but what have your conversation's been about that with say St. Ginger because I because I mean with I'm sorry Jill because I know with you and Jill being friends I know Jill wears pants now I want to say she wore pants on this very podcast and we chatted with her. So what was that conversation, that like pants conversation like with Jill?

Yeah, pants are a big deal. They always have been. I remember headlines. Like they're wearing jeans. As we're all wearing jeans. We're all wearing jeans. Yeah. We're all wearing pants.

No, I think it was just, it's so good to see them live their own, like, the way they would like to live. You know, they don't have to be, it doesn't have to be all about rules and you don't have to live in, like, legalism. Yeah. You know, you don't have to live that way. You can live in freedom. And I love to see that.

At the same time, and I will say this again, but at the same time, when I was on the show, you know, they weren't wearing pants. They weren't doing these things. And so I wish they would have just seen me for me and, like, I can still love Jesus and still wear jeans, you know? So back then there was some pushback and some maybe a little bit of judgment coming from that. But I love to see how they've grown and how, you know, who they are as women now. And I'm really, I'm proud of them.

I'm always in their corner. I'm super like encouraging, well, I try to encourage everybody. So I was raised in a certain way, right? Everyone's raised in their own ways and them as well. But at some point you have to take responsibility for yourself at some point and you have to start challenging what your parents taught you. and then like well my parents taught me that so that must be right well that's come on that's you got a you got to challenge why you believe what they taught you right and so i think you're

seeing like with jill and ginger like they've obviously gotten to a point where they're like i'm going to challenge everything i was taught and come up with my own beliefs find out where i stand on all these things and that's the part that i like seen regardless of you agree with them or or not that's huge growth from that side of the family is watching them get older and being like, you know, maybe mom and dad were right on these things. Yeah. For pants, I think I'll wear pants now, right? Yeah.

It could be something as small as pants. Yeah. But the overall thing is like, I see that, like, that is growth, not just in them, but like if you see that, like, if you've done it, I've done that, personally, I've done it. She's done it. That's just positive growth that I can get behind anybody. I don't care who you are. It's funny, the pants conversation being such a big topic because it really is for whatever

reason. Such a big deal. I know it's been a big topic in the books. And then also just chatting with Joy, Ginger, Jill. Like, we've talked about pants a lot. Yeah. And how, like, it was a big deal when they started wearing pants. And it kind of makes me almost think of, like, my little brother turning 21 and being like, dude, how was it?

Like, did you, did you drink your first beer? Did you have a whiskey? Like, I don't know. Like, whatever. So, like, for you, when you saw them, when you saw them starting to wear pants, what, did you ever, like, text or call one of them and be like, yo, like, how's the Pills? I texted Jill. I'm not, I don't, I don't talk to Juliana right now. There's a lot of, you know, I hate to say that.

I wish it wasn't that way. But like I said, the doors open if they ever want to have an actual conversation. I haven't met any of like the guys that are now married. I haven't met any of their wives. I've never been invited to the weddings. It's been kind of a closed deal. But I am like rooting them on. You know, I see them in pants.

They can, they look good. They look good in pants. You know? I love it. Jill wears the cutest little things. It's a lot of different look when all you saw was baggy long dress skirts. Okay. Yes.

Yeah. No, it's a whole new world for them and I'm here for it. There's, there's so many adults that will have, you know, glass and wine here and there or a beer or something. But it's funny. Like when you know someone that like used to not do that, but now they are. Like I have a friend that used to not drink coffee because he was raised Mormon or LDS. And so he texted me when he drank coffee for the first time. And I was like, isn't it amazing?

I'm telling you, it blew my mind. I never thought in a million years I would, I was actually, we were at my house hanging out and I was making cocktails. And I made, I made Derek an old fashion. And I was like, this is the weirdest thing, dude. I was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. We go on like double dates with them. Okay.

Because we own a restaurant. We own a bar. Like the alcohol doesn't bother me. Oh, you guys owned a bar together? I didn't know that. No, not Derek. Not Derek, but we did. No, no, no, yeah, you guys had a bar.

That's cool. I didn't know that. Yeah, we had a bar for five years. It was like a whiskey. It was like a whiskey. It was like a whiskey lounge. We had like 120 whiskeys on our show. Wow.

So like when they came over. Yes, he knows. He knows. That's cool. Okay. Whiskey nerd whiskey snob. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. But then you made some sort of beverage for Derek and you never thought in a million years he would drink it and then you guys just. I never thought in a million years anywhere, anyone from her, anyone from her, that side of her family would. ever drink much less that I would be making the drink for them. You know what I mean?

You know? But it was like, it was like, I think it was like a good, good moment. I was like, okay, cool. We are doing this. I don't care if you drink or if you don't drink. It doesn't matter to me. But I was like, okay. Yeah.

This is kind of cool. Like, a little more openness. Well, I feel like you can connect, not just in alcohol, but like just connect in all kinds of ways. Oh, yeah. I'm just getting like one thing that was like, that's so like, bipolar though of what that family right like well none of them would ever have a drink kind of like my my lDS friend i was like okay like what drink did you get i was like did you have a latte did you

have plain black coffee i'm like if you had plain black coffee you have a espresso because you went nope i was like nobody drinks plain black coffee if or at least if you're r h what is what you drink straight black like john wayne dude yeah like john wayne just poured a gullible wow total weirdo wow well he also drinks whiskey so yeah he's used to your heart That's true. You're drinking straight. And I also like my whiskey just straight on with an ice cube maybe. What?

You don't even put it in any soda or anything? I'm a Kool-Aid girl. It has to eat and fruity. You put your whiskey and Kool-Aid. No, I don't do your, I don't do whiskey. Whiskey makes me mean. She likes wine and it's like sweet wine. It's like muskato.

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pina colada or a daffery. You'd be like a whiskey guy and I'm out here like he's my fruity everything. Like if I do a cocktail, here's like if I'm doing cocktails it's like a sazirac which is very whiskey forward. Oh my. I don't even know what that is. Or it's like I'm going straight like I don't even know or it's like I'm doing martinis like give me a dirty dry gin or vodka martini. Wait, I want to hear about your wedding. Expressive martinis are good. Was there alcohol at the wedding? Okay, so good. Back to your wedding.

Okay, yeah. Yeah, okay. So. We had two different receptions. I'll let Amy explain it. We did. This was I had respect, obviously. Right?

Yes, I mean, so it was right after the first, uh, or the second scandal, right? I don't even. Doesn't that part matter? Well, okay, I'm just letting you know that like my aunt was there. Everyone was there. Everybody was there. Anna was there. It was like a really big deal because it was right.

It was heartbreaking for her. It was like a really big moment. And I was like, okay, we have to be really respectful of my family. And I love them. I want to be respectful. So we had like the most softest music playing. It was, it was music that didn't have an off-beach.

I wasn't in a church. I wasn't in a barn. We got married in like a really pretty barn dominium, beautiful, beautiful place. And this, we're talking like piano music? Like very, yes, like very soft. Like music that they would have in their home. Like, yeah. And everyone was eating and we had all the food.

And, I mean, it was beautiful. We did that for a little while. old wedding. Then we had the DJ come on and say, everyone, we're going from classy to trashy in about five minutes. Wait, he actually used the word trashy? Yeah. I don't know if we, I don't know.

Well, I know I didn't know if we actually said use those words, but that's the words he chose. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's the words he chose. Well, the wonder they all left them. No, basically it was like, hey, you have five minutes because we're about to play like regular like wedding music. Things are about to change. They warned them.

And then what happened? Oh, they left. immediately they left every single one of them every single one not a there was not a single person no what about like a distant cousin do you have any other distant cousins or anything like that no no just all of your bar buddies was mainly my family and all my friends yeah yeah and my mom but like it was it was like a big just a big oh party it turned into a party yeah yeah i was bummed because i was bummed because i know yeah like there's certain there's certain members of the family that still will be on podcast and we'll chat and that's that's true like I I love that there are there are some that

you know like to talk about the show and what they're up to now but some people don't and I respect that but I want to hear I heard to the great find that at like a recent wedding or something that there was dancing which was must have been like a really big deal I have no idea but I don't know but I guess at your wedding there wasn't there was no dancing I guess there was dancing they did not participate they left before that I'll start with Trash announcement was made. Yeah. They were dancing after that.

Once? I think they knew that the music was going to be changed to something that they thought was probably sinful. Yeah. And they were told that, you know, the bar is now open and we were at, you know, people can start having cocktails. Yeah. They were like crazy. They were like, we're out. Yeah, they're like, we love Amy, but.

Crazy Amy showed up. We got to go. And you just knew that the lights just started dimming. They're like, it's about to get. Yeah. Well, turn into a club. Turn into a park. It's our wedding.

I mean, we're going to celebrate it. We had a huge dance party at our wedding. It was fun. We all had an open bar. And I had, we had an open bar. People took their shirts off, I think. I think my buddies, did my buddies take their, oh, they, I think that under. You took your shirt off.

Matt. Did I have my shirt off at our wedding? I had a question. You drank too much. You can't remember. Do you have a problem with taking off your shirt a lot? Dude, our, it seems like that's an ongoing thing. I heard you say it like three times.

I'm really curious. Yeah, but she's also said it. So this is like I said a half a dozen times. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. Talk about generational. I don't know what it's my...

Today was riding his bike. It's a generational cycle. I was like, where is the shirt at? Did your dad do this? No, mine doesn't wear a shirt either. You know, I think it might be my ADHD. I don't know what it is. I've always had sensitivity issues.

Okay. So I've always, my entire life, never worn a shirt at home. There's like family Christmas pictures. Everyone's in sweaters. Yeah. And you have no shirt. No shirt. And we used to live in Hawaii.

And I, and I, One of my favorite parts about Hawaii, and I'm not even kidding, was I would never have a shirt on. I would go to the grocery store, no shirt. Go to the beach, no shirt. Be at my house, no shirt. I never had to wear a shirt. Your mom was just talking today. She's like, I did buy special socks for my.

I did. I did. She did. I was going to ask you about the tags. Do you cut out your tags out of your shirt? He's got a better. Yeah. I mean, it depends on how itchy they are.

And I'm really particular with the tag stuff because I hate that. But no, seriously, though, like the shirt thing, it's a real thing. Like, I don't. it's honestly it's out of respect for you guys that have a shirt on right now I was going to ask you like do you want to take it off right now no legitimately like I'm not even kidding you guys 15 seconds before I met you I threw this shirt on I mean I'm going to tell right now I don't I don't doubt it I can care less I could care less if you have a shirt on I just I don't care I don't get it all right well I guess I'll take it off classy to trashy

you guys it's a different angle for your podcast it's so taking Yeah, I would say, maybe, let me wait, maybe hold off, but that'll be like, your mom said she talked to the pediatrician about it. She did, yeah, it was a real one. She was like, maybe this or should I like force him to wear it? And he's like, I can't say anything because I'm the same way. So I'm like, really? My parents will be over for dinner and I won't have a shirt on at the dinner table.

And then my dad's like, he's like, you know what? I guess this is your house, so I can't really make you do. That's true. Or, you know, I think I said that. I don't think I was like, dad, don't even say anything. like I'm not wearing shirts my house you don't have to you should just put like

nipple tassels and be like oh my god that way now you can be like Matt where's your shirt and just turn around and be like I'm all covered I am legally covered they would think that's funny

they would think that's funny put the tassels on so you can like you know twirling and stuff that'd be hilarious they would actually would laugh about that but if you really think about it you're covered

I'm from a legal perspective you could walk around that's right they're useless anyway oh my gosh I'm curious if you've ever been to a Dugger wedding. Have you ever been? Yeah. I sang at Jills.

No way. Which was super fun. And I've been to Josh's. I've been to, yeah. So I've been up to, let's see, when was the last one? I've been to one. You've been, don't even get me started on the one that you were at. He was at Jill's hung over, y'all. He was, he was hung over. Boyfriend. And they would be like, the people, he'd be right beside me and have sunglasses. And they were like, where's your boyfriend? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. He's not here. He's not here.

I had one of those days where like, Amy's like, hey, we have the wedding if you're going to go. I'm like, yes, I'll go. I'll support you. I'll go. I'm trying to think of the last one. And then I had somebody's like, hey, we're going to go have a beer, like the bar. You want to go? And I'm like, I'll have like a couple. I've like, one or two. And then I got to get back because I got this wedding first thing tomorrow morning. And then you know how like always goes. It's an early morning wedding.

Yeah, it was like in the morning. Yeah. Yeah, it was a whole thing. Joe's wedding was in the morning. It was a morning wedding. It's a sunrise service? I was like, why you won't remember at like 6 p.m? No, no, no, no.

It's a morning wedding. So one or two beers, you know how that kind of sometimes turns into more than that? And it did. And I don't think I went to bed to like four in the morning. And then some of her girlfriends came over because I guess she had called or something. I didn't answer the phone. I was like, where's Dylan? Yeah.

And yeah, they banged on the door. And I was like, what? Give the wedding. I'm like, I know. And they're like, you know what time it is? I'm like, no. And then I was like, oh, I'm going to miss it. He showed up.

I was like, I was like, dark shades, like, okay, let's go. What is happening? I didn't talk to a whole lot of people. No, no. I've been to Jess's. I've been to Ginger's. I've been to, yeah, I mean, I've been to some. Oh, so you've been to a lot.

But, I mean, the newest ones, you know, Jason, Josiah, funerals. I haven't been a part of like any of like, if we have a family, like, you know, a distant. I haven't been to any of those. Family reunions, I haven't, we haven't been invited to. Janice, I wasn't invited to. There was a lot of different weddings that I haven't, which is just weird. It's just a weird feeling being like, wow, that is something I thought I would, that would never happen. Yeah, I go back to one of the other things we were talking about before, too.

It's like, some like, you know, you see like Ginger and Jill and they're getting older and they're, they challenge a bunch of stuff that they were taught as a kid. Yeah. And now they're kind of changing how they live their life. I think that's great. but some of the other ones that we haven't spoken to who aren't living at home and they just don't invite family member it's like okay is like what did a

what did somebody say or what were they told yeah we don't know what they've maybe been told that you know we don't like them that we know what I mean or there's like a family we wonder that we're like I have no idea or Jim I might have told the rest of the kids oh you see if they're okay it's weird

like even we free reach out they don't reach back. And it's like, okay, what were you all, what were you, what were you, what were you told? Yeah, what's going on here. You know, and there's a family loyalty. And I get that they like want to be obedient to their parents and that they, you know, want to have their parents in their lives and that kind of thing.

And I, it's not that I'm against anyone. I didn't write this book from like a bitter place. I'm not mad. I am not clearly. You guys have talked to me. Like, I am not mad about it. It's just I've had to heal from a lot. And the experiences that I've had to heal from can help someone.

else heal from whatever they've gone through in their life so yeah there's a there's a lot there's a lot in there I understand that because I going through like our recent hard experience like people like I could never talk about it and I understand that and I can see where that comes from I also feel like like I always said like talking about it and even talking about it publicly was like oh it was a healing process for me like yeah it felt good to get that out there and then like it felt like once everything was on the table, it's like, okay, now we can see it for what it is and we can move on.

And I do understand that aspect for sure. I think what are cool parts when you actually... In a different way. Yeah, no, for sure. But to that point, I think it's really cool when you do the work yourself and you heal from it, but then you are kind of public about it.

Yeah. Not like waving public about it, but you're not shared to share, right? Yeah. Then you do get people that are in a good place like Jill that reaches out and be like, hey, I've been there. Like, if you need anything,

got quite like I'm here. She's been so sweet and so supportive. If she wasn't public about it though and she hadn't healed from it, then, you know, she wouldn't have reached out. And it, but that goes on all of us. Like what I might have worked on as a kid and where I'm at now might not help you because you haven't gone through that or you're not going through it. Yeah.

But somebody else might. So I can help people that you can't, but you can touch people that I can't. That makes sense. And it's quite like talking shirtless. Yeah. Tassels, if you want, man. It would be great. No, it is, it is cool how sharing your story can help you heal and help other people heal. I know even speaking with Tanner Martin's wife, Shea Martin, who we spoke to on this podcast. You know, she lost her husband Tanner to cancer. And I felt, I was like, how do you feel about talking about?

I was like, just double checking before we did the interview. Like, how do you feel about talking? Like, this is really fresh. This happened a couple months ago. And she was like, no, this is actually like, she said she was like, she said she was like, Like, this is therapeutic for me to share his story. And so, like, his memory can, you know. That shares how strong of a person just she is. I know. Two months, that's quick. Yeah.

So I think it's just one of those things where, yeah, you, you can maybe like you bring purpose out of past trauma through helping people through it and talking about it. I am curious, though, have you, like, I know we talked about Jim Bob, but with your own father, have you talked to your dad since the release of the book? Unfortunately, no, I have not. And the things that are in the book, you know, are deeply, deeply personal. And it's, I go through the entire thing of what, of what's happened and what's gone on. And really the last moments of my last goodbye, there was a lot of mind games, just so much hurt.

It like, yeah, it was like one of the most devastating parts of my entire book. My book, I've, I've been told will make you cry. So if you guys, you know, for those that are do picking it up, just have Kleenex nearby. because I hear that it is, you know, it's just my life's story. And there's ups and downs and a lot of deep valleys that I've had to go through. But no, unfortunately, I've not. And so we haven't talked to her dad in like seven years. Wow, seven years.

Seven years. Like he made a phone call to our house. I won't get into that phone call unless she's okay with it. But he ended up calling and he said a bunch of things and basically she handed the phone to me. Heartbreaking things. She ended the phone to me, I, you know, again, that kind of that abuser kind of thing, he kind of flipped the switch. And I was like, dude, she had the phone on speaker phone this whole time. Like, I heard it because you're talking to me like you didn't say what you said. Yeah. Like, I heard you. Let's talk about it. Yeah. Didn't want to talk about it. Anyway, to cut to the end of the story, that conversation basically got left with like, we're done. Yeah. This is the line we're drawing. We can't do this anymore. You've abused her. You've abused Deanna for years. Now we're married. I'm not going to let it continue because I'm not letting that into my own life

and that was the line that was that day we said this is the line and we asked we were pretty blatant obvious we asked them straight up like look man like if you can't change these type of things and this is like the abuse behavior that you're going to continue to do unless you change it like you're not welcome at our house

don't call us we went as far as even saying like you'll you're not going to meet your grand kid you're never going to know your You're not going to meet your grandkids. Yeah. Which is heartbreaking. We're not letting this in our life. Yeah.

Yeah. That's just where we're at. How did he respond to you saying that? Basically good. I don't need you anyway and hung up. I mean, that's basically what it would us. And we were like, okay. Well, we haven't talked to him in seven years now.

Yeah. We, uh, a lot of therapy over that. A lot of therapy. What would you do if he, like, showed up at your house one day and like wanted to talk? He's not welcome. I would probably call the police. Yeah, he's not welcome. I really would.

It's to the point where, like, if, someone tells you over and over how they want to end your life and they've threatened you and they've threatened to burn down the house with you in it and tie you up and hurt you and all the things it was never sexual abuse let that be known but his the words that he said to me felt like he was punching me in the face every single time it's terrifying terrifying the stuff he would say was so strong that I have a really good buddy of mine great friend of mine that was in like law enforcement for 30 something years and we went to him and I was like look man you've dealt with this type of thing just in your profession um and like these are the

things that he's telling her and from like from his professional kind of standpoint I'm like what would you make of this and he's like you need just get a restraining order get her was that something there's a enough of there's a enough here and a pattern like this isn't like oh I got mad one day. No, no, no, no. My mom had a restraining order on him when they were younger. And I think he's gotten to the point where now I don't think he'll reach out. I don't think, you know, he'll try. Do you know if he knows that you wrote a book or? I have no idea. I have no idea. Zero contact in seven years. Zero. Like is his number blocked? Like even if he tried to call, it would. His number's not blocked in my phone. If he tried to call.

He's blocked in mine, and, you know, he's not the only blocked number. My uncle is blocked as well. I'm just going to, you know, I'm almost 40. I'm 30, 39, which is crazy to say. I'm 39. I don't, I just, I'm exhausted. I don't want to have these mind games. And, you know, I want to have genuine good people surrounding me and, you know,

influencing my child and protecting my child and just being just good, just be a good human. That's all I'm asking, you know. We don't have to see eye to eye on everything, no, but you cannot, you know, threaten my life. That's just not going to, that's not going to work. That's about, yeah, you're not going to do that. And I'm not going to be lied to over and over. You know, there's so many things that I think because narcissistic people just know what to say and they know how to twist things and manipulate and that kind of thing,

that, you know, we put up with it, I should say this, if we have friends and they're treating you that way, like, I'm. Abby, if someone was treating you that way, you would be like, whoa, that's toxic. That's unhealthy. Like, I'm not going to allow that in my life, right? But what happens if it's family member? You know, people just go along with it. They're like, oh, I have to accept it because family is forever. You know, to see the hobby lobby signs. Family is forever. These plaques and all these things. Well, family can also be chosen. And families should respect you and love you and value you and treat you with genuine respect, you know? Yeah, I agree. There's a lot of people.

have that, then you have to draw a boundary or that toxic cycle never stops. Did your mom end up making a boundary like that at some point as well? She did. Yeah. So in the book, I talk about how my uncle invited her to live at his house after grandma passed. My mom was my grandma's caregiver for like three or four years. And my mom was in a really, really broken place, really bad, just from all the things that she's gone through but also a really bad divorce and so she now lives with us and it's like a really good like big ending to the story is that my mom lives with us now and she's actually taking care of Dax right now and yeah yeah and it's such a beautiful thing because she's healed from so so much and it just shows you that anything is possible once

you just you have to put boundaries in place yeah or that's always going to continue is that hard to have those boundaries living where you live because i mean everyone everything's so close together you're like 20 minutes away right heavily heavily populated right yeah i mean it's like five six hundred thousand people who live in this yeah i mean so it's not it's not insanely populated but at the same time yeah and we go to the same places you know um if i for example i ran into john david just the other day um and he was at a restaurant and um i saw his wife and I just said hi and she was like hi Amy she always says hi when I see her and John looked at me and he was like oh hey and I was like hey and they just kept on

like it wasn't anything it was I mean are we family sure but are we each other's lives not no and so it's just one of those things where we're just like what I mean life goes on you know it's just another person which is crazy we've kind of drawn the line with like Jim Bob obviously and her dad and yeah but like we've never really drawn the line like with the rest of like the cousins no it seems like something has been said over there because it's almost like it's almost like all of them have drawn a line not to engage us where they would almost be like cut out or something yeah from the top down or something yeah something yeah something i think that's probably what happened i don't know i don't know because the only ones that have reached out is the ones

who have broken away from it. I've also been very outspoken and I'm not, I'm not going to stop because that's how you break cycles. That's how you help other people break cycles. And that's how you can have peace in your life. And so I don't think that's really welcomed. Okay. In that group.

And so, yeah, you know, because women are literally, you're literally taught in the IBLP and even just in that family unit in that circle, that women are supposed to be like quiet, meek and mild submissive you know submissive um and just and just not to have a mind of their own not to have yeah you don't think for yourself and so i am i i clap back whole opposite of how they think a woman should be right and so i should say used to be we can't say that now because we have talked to me we don't know we don't know but yeah so i don't think they necessarily are like whoa like she's like what is she doing but for me it's just it's a healing

journey it's really therapeutic yeah because like it it almost seems i just know through our conversations on the podcast with with ginger jeremy joy you know everybody that we've spoken to it seems like from what i've seen it seems like they've all broken away from iblp and i'm sure a lot of their siblings have i we haven't talked about the podcast i have no idea but it almost seems like you know that like the i blp thing and then like the family unit thing is separate you know so i yeah it makes me sad. I hope that in the future you guys can all reconnect at some point because that like that would be dope. I mean, maybe it's not with you and your uncle, but maybe like your cousins. I don't know. That'd be awesome. No, the door is always open and it's something that I would literally welcome if they

want to have a real, you know, heart to heart conversation. That's awesome. This is a curiosity question because you were raised as an only child, obviously had so many cousins that you were close with growing up. Did you have siblings? Yeah, I have a brother and a sister. Okay. And then you have. have one son that you call an only child. So I think that means the door's close for more children. Listen. I mean, I'm 39. I wasn't going to say it that I was done. My grandma had my uncle at like 42. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I think we've landed like one is good. I've asked Dax so many times. I'm like, buddy, would you like a brother or sister? Like, how do you feel about that? And ever since he was like two years old, He's like, no, I want a baby duck.

Baby duck. And I'm like, okay. And it hasn't changed. He's now six and still says, I want a baby duck. And don't worry, we're going to hopefully move on a farm. He was going to be a duck. We're going to get a duck. You guys haven't gotten him a duck yet.

But we can't in our neighborhood. What? Yeah. Where are we going to put the duck? We also have a cat. We have some friends that they live in a residential neighborhood and they have chickens. Okay, I love that. I don't think our HOA would let us do that.

I don't think they would let us do that. I don't think they would let us do that. I don't, right? I don't think they would. eight bites before dishes that. Oh, I don't think that's all. I don't think they're going to do it at all. And chickens isn't worth getting fined every month because I have chickens.

Just tell me your dog. She's eggs, you know what I? Listen, one day I'm going to have like a total farm of every animal. He's already told me if we moved to a farm, I can have whatever animal I want. There you go. I'm telling you're like, no more kids. They'll be. Yeah.

So I, he's, I've always wanted to be a boy mom. And now that I am, it's everything of everyone. and I'm fulfilled. I love it. Here's this crazy. So she marries somebody that also, this is how much life changes. I think it's funny that you like not only drink, but then you own the freaking bar. Like how big of a contrast could you make from like IVLP?

It's like you own the bar. I told myself. I just don't go there like I own there. I told myself that I did not want to date or marry a vanilla cupcake. And y'all, I did it. I did not marry one. no he didn't I got all kinds of things to this one

yeah I don't remember what I was going to say now I'm talking about kids we're talking about kids oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so like when we first got like met and everything else like I was like very on a straight line of like I'm not looking for like a serious relationship till I'm 40 I had no interest to having kids like none and then we got married when I was like what we were late 20s I was like, well, I missed the 40 mark by a mile. And then we waited four years to have a kid. He asked to have a kid three months in.

We should have a kid. He was like, I want a baby. And then even I was even shocked myself because I was like, I don't want kids. I've never wanted kids, you know. Yeah. It's so funny hearing that because one is really good for me. Growth. Growth. Fatherhood is freaking awesome.

So I know, I love it. So I know for a. Do I know for a fact? No, I love it. Like probably 25, I would have been begging Abby to, like, make me a dad. But, like, at the time when she was, like, wanting to have kids, I was just like, we just got married. It wasn't even that.

So it's funny hearing you be like, I was the one that was, like, pushing for it. Yeah. Three months into our marriage. And I was like, I literally thought, like, that's like a dougar move. Like, I'm not. I'm glad we didn't. Oh, so you had been happy. Like, you were almost thinking you weren't going to have kids at first.

No, no, no. I mean, I definitely wanted a kid. I had to like, here's the thing, I had to heal from a lot, given my background, I knew that I had to, like, in order to be the mom that I am now, which I love being a mom, it is the best thing on the planet. But in order to be that kind of mom, like, that's going to be soft spoken and kind and patient and all of that, I had to heal from a lot because I grew up with a lot of yelling, broken glass, cops were called, that kinds of crap. I had to work on me before I could, you know, be something amazing for a little one. Well, even that, like, I'm glad we didn't have a kid three months to him. And I say that, I say that because, like, if you go back and you watch, like, marriage boot camp, the show that we were on. Yeah, yeah.

That was, like, our first year of, we went on that show, like, our first year of marriage. So we went in, like, as, like, the new movie was? You guys went on a TV show, your first year of marriage. Yeah. And so, what? Marriage boot camp. There's five couples that live in this house. And every couple is an, you know.

in a different stage of their relationship. So we were like the newlyweds that was on it. And so like we were really went into it like, okay, we don't have huge big major problems. But we're definitely going to learn a bunch of stuff about each other. And maybe this will prevent bigger things going down the road. So we went into it like almost like counseling. Like if you watch that like so a lot of the healing stuff that she's talking about,

like I had to, I've watched her go through all of this healing stuff through like our early studies of marriage. And we just celebrated 10 years. congratulations that's amazing but I would say like the first what one two three years was a lot of like you know

boundaries drawn that we've talked about but then it was like okay the boundaries the boundary has been drawn that's going to stay on this side now and now let's work on me and so like a few years of our like marriage was a lot of her working on herself a lot of triggers I had a lot of triggers

big triggers that I had to figure out of out because I don't know your triggers. Like you don't know someone's triggers unless you talk about it. Yeah. So like. Communication, babe. We've done well. We're doing good.

We're, we're all like, we're happy. So we're good. Isn't that cool, though, like, through all that time, like, you get to know each other so well that, like, I understand how Abby's mind works and I understand, like, the things that she loves and the things that, like, sets her off. And, like, it's just, it's so cool. You get to know someone like that way. It's really special.

Actually, yeah, today in the shower, I was like, Matt, I'm going to give you one chance. He had a shirt off, right? He had a shirt off, right? I think I did I always have my shirt I always have my shirt Perfect My shirt's never on You know me

I said do that one more time He was like okay He said that was wrong And you literally gave me three reasons Why you should have said Yeah I was like I took a second And I was like this is everything I did wrong You didn't like this because this

And then this and then this I was like I was actually really impressed I'm not even mad anymore I was like I'm not even mad anymore You gotta communicate I love you baby How long have you guys been together

We've been, we've been, we'll be a decade. So we're about, this one will be seven years married. So yeah, six months from now, we'll celebrate seven years.

Yeah, only seven years. But yeah, we dated for three. So this one will be a decade together. Oh, we got to do that.

A decade of our relationship. What should we do? Yeah. I don't know. I'll do something fun. But it is different once you're married. So I'm like, only six and a half years married.

Yeah. But still. I guess we've been together for 11. Okay. We've been married for 10. Okay. So I think a lot of people to learn a lot.

Two also thought, like, we were having, like, a shotgun wedding because we got pregnant. Oh, that's the... Oh, wait, you were pregnant? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying, I think people thought that because, like, okay, so we dated for, like, eight months. And then we were engaged for two months. And then we had a 450-person wedding. Oh, yeah, you said you weren't going to get married.

That's really funny. I know, that's my point, right? That's hilarious. So everyone on my side was like, Dylan doesn't want to get married. Why is he getting married a two-month engagement? What is this? And then her side of family was like, like, it's just like, people would naturally like, here's the-month engagement, like, she's pregnant, right?

What's going on? And your family is like, this is the owner of the local bar. Well, I didn't have a bar at that time. Oh, you didn't have to be clear, okay. Bars don't make money? They're not big profit. They're not big profit margins, okay? They are exhausting. Don't do it.

Very small profit. Doesn't seem like a fun idea until you own it. No. So, so the deal, okay, the short story of that is, like, I've always loved the social aspect of, like, lounges and that type of thing. Don't get me wrong, I like my whiskey and everything. But, like, I like the interaction, like with you guys. Like, I like meeting new people. This is so fun.

It is really fun. I like being out and being social. Yeah. And so, like, ever since 21, being able to go into a bar or a lounge, like, I've always been like, I want to own a lounge. Yeah. And I don't know what that looks like. Like a classy one. But I was like, one day I want to own one.

And so we got in a good place in our relationship, right? Because it's going to take up a lot of your time and it's a bar too. I mean, you can't have someone in the relationship being jealous if you're running a bar. I mean, you can imagine. So, you know, we were in a good healthy place as far as our relationship. We were in a good healthy place financially. And I was like, I've always wanted to do this. We're in a good spot.

Let's do it. Because like if you don't do it, you're going to regret it later. And I can't do that. Okay. Like, if I have something I want to do, I'm not going to not do it because I know I will regret it later. I'll kill myself for it just because of that like, why didn't I do that when I was young? Yeah. I'm not going to do it.

I'd rather just take the chance, right? Yeah. So we did. It was a lot of fun. We had it for six years. Loved it. You know, we got out of it now. But it was a lot of fun.

A lot of fun. Hard work. I kind of miss it still a little bit. Sure you learned a lot, too, just about like people and business and probably alcohol as well. Like, there's a lot. I mean, yeah, we had a private cigar lunch in the back. That's nice. So, you know, we'd smoke cigars and have some whiskey.

It was a very a man thing, right? Yeah. But yeah, it was a lot of fun. We had a French, a culinary trained French chef. So I learned a lot of cooking stuff from him throughout the years. And so if you jump on like any of our social stuff, you'll see me cooking food. And she always is posting something that I'm cooking. But who was?

I came from the chef at the restaurant in LAW. I'm sorry, but like, back, I got. a sidetracked about the bar but back back to the wedding who who went to you and was like asking you about you guys having a kid out of wedlock when you got married oh i think it was just a general like like like everybody just was looking for the bump like so you're i was not pregnant okay yeah we weren't pregnant we were just like you know you got engaged and like we're like let's have the wedding in september it's like you know it's two months that's two months from now it's like yeah it's like yeah i wanted to do that and that got shut

down but i think our moms i think maybe maybe maybe you a little bit, but I think you were also more, you were more down to, like, do a courthouse wedding or whatever. Yeah. But, um, no, it's, it's... Yeah. Some people get so caught up in, like, weddings and, like, the dress and the... The planning for a whole year. Our wedding was expensive. That's awesome. I love

that. I love the courthouse. Or, like, just like, like, eloping. I feel like that would be amazing. If I could have bought it so fun. If I would do it all over again. We could have bought a really nice car for how much our wedding cost. Should have, should have maybe... Which, in hindsight, like, it was a great, I mean, it was a great day, obviously. Don't regret it at all, obviously. I'm not about how much we spent on the wedding and everything else.

It's so expensive these days. The logistics of a wedding, right? Because it was like 450 guests. It's a big wedding. That's huge. It's a big wedding. But hindsight, like what you're talking about, like, I would have much rather been like, let's throw that money in the bank for something else,

and let's take like a good chunk of it and go play, like, around Europe for like three weeks. Or something like that. down payment on a house. And then when we got back, just be like, and then when we get back, let's just throw like a local local party with close friends and family. Like, that would have been way better, I think. We've talked about a lot today. I know, I know your book, your book is now out.

It's been out for a couple weeks now. Holy Disruptor. So congratulations on your book. You know, it seems like you guys have an exciting. I think you mentioned there's a line of cozy blankets. So I'm doing a comfy cozy line. Coffee cozy line. That's like a lot of sassy, like one.

liners on these sweatshirts like sweatshirts and like loungewear like streetwear that kind of stuff okay so not blankets but it's like comfy cozy yeah sweatshirt sweetwear street wear okay yes very cool yeah so it's called louder threats and it'll be out in December very cool so coming up really soon that's fun yeah yeah yeah it's cool we've been really busy yeah yeah it's gonna be really good stuff it's gonna be just like like like from a like a mental health perspective of just like I don't know all the stains and like all the stuff like that is all like um encouraging kind of things. It's all things that you can wear that maybe people can relate to you in their own life. Yeah. I'm in my healing era. And I'm sure, you know, I'm sure there's people

listening to the podcast that are interested in the book haven't, haven't read yet, but I know there's probably a lot of people too that have finished the book because it's been out for a couple weeks. What do you have to say to those people who maybe are just wanting a life update from you on how things are now and what what you currently are up to? Oh my goodness. I would just say thank you so much for your outpouring, like love and support. It means a lot. It was the hardest project I ever had to do was to write this book and then be the audio voice for it because it just brought a voice to the actual of my actual truth and my story. And so I just hope it resonates with their hearts. I hope it encourages them

in their own life, that they can be wholly disruptors. And when they see something that needs to be broken in generational trauma, that they have the power and the courage to do so. That's awesome. Have you heard any stories of people reaching out and sharing, like, how it's affected their life and brought goodness into their life? I have had so many people reach out. I had one lady. I won't tell her name. But she got out of a 28-year marriage from someone who was physically abusing her. And she said that she, after reading my book, she sent me a message and said, your book has made me realize that I deserve peace.

for a long time I didn't think I deserved I deserved what I was getting and because of you I have left and she got a restraining order and has moved out and is like and it's not all about just like you know disrupting and like and divorcing and it's not all these like really like heavy topics

but it's more of like looking at the people in your life and being like who is who is healthy who is loving me and accepting me and and you know is a good example for the people that I'm around for my kids and who makes my heart feel happy. You know, those are the people that we should have in our inner circle. Yeah. And the ones that don't, well, you know, I believe that that's why there's boundaries.

And so boundaries really protect you. Yeah, there's been a lot of people reach out. There's been so many, many people. I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah. I guess my final question for you, and if this is too much, I totally, like, no worries at all. I'm curious, like, if your dad, like, we're here, if there's something for you to say to him because it's been seven years like what what would you like say to your dad um

i would say that my life is at peace now and i i don't have any like bad hard feelings toward him i just i know that he has to heal from the things that's hurt him in his life and so i just wish him all the best and i hope that healing is possible in his life that's good that's very good yeah Yeah, that's cool that you have that, like that outlooks. I'm sure it's very hard to, like, hope for something good for someone that hurts you a lot. Took me a while to get there. Yeah. But now that it's here, yeah, I feel like a totally different person.

That's awesome. Yeah. Well, Amy and Dylan, thank you again so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate you guys being here. And again, you guys can check out Amy's new book, Holy Disruptor. I want to say on Amazon everywhere. It's everywhere. Go to your local bookstore.

they have it. Yeah, it's everywhere. Yes. So guys, thank you so much again for being here. Thank you. Y'all, y'all are great. Thank you so much. This is great.