The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Jill Duggar & Derick Dillard on leaving a cult, growing up with 18 siblings & the problem with reality TV

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

We had Jill Duggar & Derick Dillard join us this week on the podcast. Jill tells stories of her experience growing up with 18 siblings, being on the reality TV show 19 Kids and Counting & being in the IBLP. This episode is sponsored by Huggies, ShipStation, BetterHelp & Nutrafol. Visit huggies.com and get your baby’s butt into Huggies best fitting diaper! Huggies Little Movers. Get a 30-day free trial at www.shipstation.com/unplanned. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/UNPLANNEDPODCAST and get on your way to being your best self. Go to nutrafol.com and enter promo code UNPLANNED for $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping. BUY OUR MERCH!! unplannedpodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Gently used, barely sanitized. The skate's might smell funky, but the comedy is always fresh. Catch DJ Demaris, starring in the brand new secondhand sporting goods workplace comedy, one more time. New episode Tuesday on CBC Gem. And it's Ciacum with the spoon. He's driving into the McClurry, the soft serve, the red smarties, the hot fudge, and there's the swirl move. And the raptors fans are eating it up.

The Ciacom Swirl McFlurry, for a limited time at participating McDonald's in Canada, excluding Quebec. The fact that I started wearing pants was a big deal. I was in their view jeopardizing my salvation. Did you guys keep like a foot between the arms kids? They're sentrules. Actually, there was a sick control, between you and your kids? Sixth and trull. Actually, there was a sixth and trull, and could you hold hands? Not until we were engaged. And we didn't kiss until our wedding day.

With or without the reality show, this control issue would have been a thing. A big tool of controlist like isolate people. Or now would say, like don't talk about finances or to show with any other people because they wouldn't understand. One of the core teachings was you're not supposed to limit the number of children that you have.

A lot of families would have as many as their body would spit out. That's wild. Did you guys ever shut down any kids eat free restaurants out of the family? I think so. You did? We sat down with Jill Ducker and her husband, Derek Dillard, from the hit TLC TV show, 19 Kids in County.

Jill grew up in a strict household that was a part of the Institute of Basic Life Principles, also known as the IBLP. And the Institute has since been criticized for its cult-like characteristics. And a recent Amazon documentary, Jill and Derek opened up about never being paid for their involvement on the TV show. We talk about all this and so much more

in today's interview. We just recently watched Shiny Happy People, the documentary. How are you shiny people? No, shiny people. Oh, you're right. Shiny Happy People. I got it right.

It was two years ago that you filmed that. And it just came out. Almost two years ago, yeah. I was pregnant with our youngest, Freddie. And now he is 17 months, yeah. You're not. Wow. So were you expecting that big of a delay in between? I mean, you're not. 17 months, yeah, you're not. Wow. So were you expecting that big of a delay in between?

I mean, you're kind of using that. I mean, yes, with growing up on just filming all the time for TV show and stuff, I was used to there being a delay, but generally, the delay would be no more than like six months, three to six months. It kind of fell off our radar and we were're talking with each other shortly before it came out. We were like, didn't wait, like, whatever happened with that interview we did. I had never even heard of the IBLP ever.

I didn't know if that was until the documentary. So that was all new to me. So I'm curious, did it accurately depict what the IBLP was from your perspective? I think they did a really good job of setting it up for people like you're saying who've never heard of IBLP, this organization that I kind of grew up in, and the wild crazy ideas that a bunch of people just caught on to. It tends to draw a lot of people from broken backgrounds who wanted a checklist of what they could do to fix their lives. People felt like this is like the key versus like relationship with Jesus. That's where I feel like they did a good job of kind of

distinguishing between the two of like what true Christianity is meant to look like versus like what essentially it cult looks like. And I thought that docum Dickep Dickep Dickep Dickep

Dickep Dickep Dickep Dickep Dickep Dickep Dickep Dickep in that well. But I think they also were not, they're not coming from the perspective of advocating for something. All they're doing is like presenting these facts and then saying like, here's how it got here. One of the moments in your book where I was totally blown away was seeing, I think you mentioned having to leave a church that had some sort of event or something where there were kids dancing on stage. They were a Christmas program with kids dancing on stage. Just a Christmas program. A Christmas program with kids dancing on stage

and your family left, right? They, that was something that was not allowed in IBLP households. No, yeah, it would be very much something that if we didn't just pick up and leave during, then we would, after the fact, like my parents might like apologize to us, like I'm so sorry kids,

that you had to see that or whatever. So you never danced to her. And then we wouldn't go back. No. No dancing. No. How do you qualify with dancing is though? Because like our toddler, our toddler we turn on music. He loves to dance. Yeah. And so cute, but he'll do like this little running thing. And so is like, is running. Jumping for joy. Like that's what my parents would call it. Jumping for joy. Jumping for joy might be okay if you're just like jumping like on a trampoline.

Yay. So excited. Oh my goodness, we got what I'm reading. It's a redefining. But even if it's jumping for joy, the same action, but you call it something different, that's, no, no, you can't call it dancing. Did you grow up in an IBLP household?

No, I didn't know anything about, I really, until we started, around the time we started talking. So you didn't have 18 other siblings like Jill that was one other sibling. Yeah, culture shock coming in. And was that something that was normal in IBLP families where there are a lot of families with almost 20 kids or 10 plus kids? Yes, so IBLP, I would say like looking at their group, one of the main things that you would see going to like a conference or something like that would be families with lots of

kids because one of the core teachings was that you're not supposed to limit the number of children that you have. So a lot of families would have 10, 12 kids, as many as their body would spit out. So at our ages, yeah, what was it like 11 kids? Yeah, 11 or 12 kids are parents that are already. I was like, yeah. I don't even know the math, but I'm like trying to figure out my kid nine months

is a standard print. I'm like, how does that even happen? Like, that's crazy. There's multiple. There's multiple usually get pregnant with the next kid when the baby was like six months old. That was like average. Holy cow.

For her. Like, I feel like that. That was so wild. Like having to attend. No protection, like not even condoms, like that's not. Okay, I'm sorry. I don't know, like, like literally nothing at all. Or.

I mean, I didn't usually have those conversations with my parents, but I know that they did not believe in contraception. About using condoms, they would have been like, don't do it. Yeah. But I know that they did not believe That's what they would have been like don't do it. Yeah, did you guys ever shut down any kids eat free restaurants? I think so there was this one a queue out back remember you used to go there Families like mine suffered for it, and then we couldn't go get all of us and our friends Yeah, and they changed their rules. Yeah, because you find out where the kids eat free places are and you tell all your other homeschool family friends

who have like eight and 10 and 12 kids. That was the hat. You know what, like Sarah could say, he's like, this is a poor business decision. They're the ones making decision, you know, like, they're lots of those places. You can't run yourself. But when they make that deal,

they're not thinking about a family of 21 coming in. We went there for so long, they would have known. Like, they're coming. Eventually, they know. They start ordering in like all the friends for you guys. That's what I think about. I'm like, how do you talk go place? Like, we used to go to the talko place

and get a bunch of tacos, and finally, they're like, can you call ahead? That's so wild. I think about the logistics of a family that size, and I'm just so impressed looking back. I'm like, wow, like having kids, three boys of our own now. I'm like, how do my parents do it, you know?

Cause they have so many kids trying to keep everything afloat. And then yeah, as we got older, I think it just kind of, it did evolve into all of us carrying a lot of the weight, like teamwork, just somebody's in charge of lunch and preparing dinner and breakfast, whatever. Because you had to also correct me if I'm wrong,

but as a teenager, you almost had to play mom for your younger siblings, right? And help raise them and wake up with them in the night if they woke up and they were crying. Cause there's no way that your mom could have taken care of all 19 kids, right? Yeah, so we had a buddy system where an older child would be paired

with a younger sibling or two or three. And that way, at home, we nobody slipped through the cracks. There was always somebody knowing like, making sure this one got launched and this one got the diaper changed and not that my parents wouldn't change the diapers or whatever, like they were always changing,

both my parents were always changing diapers too. But like, especially when we were out and about, we had to help make sure that nobody got left anywhere. Yeah. But I never changed the diaper until I was 26. You were dirt. Really? When did you change your first diaper, hell, were you?

Probably like six or something, I don't know. Yeah, 20 year difference when we first changed our first diaper. I got my first buddy whenever I was about six. And you were 26? A baby when you were six? Yeah, I got my first like buddy, baby, to take care of. Take care of. Not as much as I would have later.

Like I didn't do quite as much as I would have been. Your next two children you took care of more. Did you wake up in the night with them? No, I didn't, I wasn't to that level. There's, you know, different levels. That's so wise. But my mom actually like during the night, she would keep like the itty bitty babies with her in her room

and then even during the night, like if we woke up with a kid, like they would help. My mom was very, she's just that nurturing personality. So she was very involved, like up through the night and everything with the kids. Like if somebody's sick, it's her dealing with them. It's not us. But you don't have your own bed though for a while.

We had our own beds. We just, the kids always piled in with us too. Well, I don't like, you just sleep by yourself. You don't have to sleep by yourself. I didn't like to sleep by myself. I always had one or two in bed with me. And dare to on the other hand, like, he will be gone. I never shared a room until I was in my 20s.

He's like, I never even shared a room until I was in college. And then I was like, I always had somebody in bed with me. So I'm like, I don't know what to do. If there's nobody in bed with me. That's why I'm like, how many siblings, Derek? I had one. One, okay, one younger brother. He's 33.

That's it. So, I just have one or two, like literally children. Like, you know, like, that's, you guys probably now with your little sister. I remember reading in your book that you kept crockpots in the car with you when you go places to have food Ready on the yoke. I guess there's just no way to afford fast food or take out when you have that many children And your and your mom staying home. So it's not like your mom is working outside of the home

Yeah, so we took like it so if we were going to music lessons we would take a crock pot with chili and go Yeah, music lessons because we might be there all day, you know, for these once a month group less than times in. When you were young, like, were you guys? Younged in four. Yeah, were you four basically? Like, with that many children, it was just really hard to pay the bills

because I can't imagine that many children under one roof that expenses must have been astronomical, you know? Yeah, I mean, I wasn't balancing the budget with my parents, but I did know that there were times before the show where things were very tight, and my parents would say, hey, we need to pray for this or that. Or, you told me about a time, one time, or... We sold this property.

Yeah, you told me about a one time, where you put your blanket in the freezer, so that whenever you went to bed and you'd be cool without AC. Yeah, like when we moved, we were staying in a rental house. This was after the show had started, but before the series started, our AC went out in this rental house and it was just really hot. So by sister and I, like stuck our sheets in pillowcases, I think, or pillows, in Walmart sacks, in the freezer, in the deep freeze, just to cool them down. So that way whenever we got in bed,

then we'd feel cold down. And then when we moved into our big house that like we all helped build, and the show was helping some, but again, it was right around the time that the bigger series started, we didn't have AC that whole first summer that we lived in the house. We didn't even have water running water for two weeks when we moved into the house.

Like, we had an outhouse, like a, like a, a porta-pony outside that like we had to go and use for two weeks because of the overlap of when we were wrapping up. They want the show on it us to like move in and film this moving scene and you know like building a house construction, it just everything takes longer. Yeah. So it wasn't even finished when we moved in. And so yeah, that first summer we didn't even have AC and then some of family friends like they bought window units when they were like you don't have AC and they came to visit and they were hot and seven. They were really sweet They bought us like window units for each of the bedrooms three bedrooms And then we finally got the AC because there's a big expense

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So they helped, I'm sorry, they helped pay for the house a little bit. To be able to see that. To be able to see that. To be able to cover, like, for example, like there might be an interior designer who comes to like film this, like, hey, the house is all finished or whatever. Like, we're moving in. And so they come and stage it with all of their things. And then I remember that we got to pick

a certain number of decorations to keep and the rest went back to the shop. Like, no way. Yeah, that's just like how they would, like, they would stay to the house. And then and then there's like a furniture company that might give furniture and somebody might give a piano because it's a it's some what do they call organic product placement. So there might be product placements that you get things and then I don't know behind the scenes like how much financially was being like, oh, we're

going to cover the construction or whatever The construction of this or that. I don't know all those numbers, but at the time I'm just like, oh yeah, we get this or that. And then, but yeah, with the decorations and all that, I do remember them saying like, okay, pick however many things, and then we're taking the rest back,

or you can buy them. There was an option, but there, you know, it's like, I see it. It's so expensive. Yes, but like we got to help, we got to pick out our beds. you know, it's like, the designer, it's so expensive. Yes, but like, we got to help, we got to pick out our beds. I do remember that, like, there was a magazine and somebody was sponsoring whatever,

so we got to pick out new beds. And we were like, oh, this is fun. That's cool. So. You know, at some point along the way with the show's progression, you guys meet, and it was all televised. It was all on TV.

Yeah. How did that make you feel to be meeting this girl, recording this girl and it's all being recorded? Yeah, going into, I didn't know how it would work out because I remember I was on the top of this like really basic hotel in Topla, June, Nepal and just basically concrete building on the roof of it. After we got back from like a long, long trek

in the Himalayas and like talking to her dad. And he was like, so like we would like to bring some of the film crew along. That's how we're gonna be able to do this. And later I learned he had told you like, we're not gonna be able to go unless we bring the film crew along. And I was like, well, I-

This is kind of the way our life was at the time. It was just, it was very much like. It was different for me, and I was like, well, I- That's just kind of the way our life was at the time. It was very much like- It was different for me, but it was different for me, but you were more used to it. But we were kind of going around, Kathmandu, Nepal, and I remember, I think your dad or said, oh, is this, so this is kind of like what you do every day, this is like your day to day life,

and I was like, no, I've actually never been to this part of the city. This is like a tourist attraction. And I like, I have two weeks of vacation a year and I had to take a week of vacation for this time. And this is- And now you're filming it. Yeah, and this is like nothing to do

with like what I would normally be doing. But he's just trying to make small talk and everything. Yeah, I mean, you just try to make small talk. But no, I don't want people think like it's this like awkward. Like I don't want people thinking I'm just tourist all the time every day. I'm just touring and camping every day. And like this is my life last two years. No to think, like, it's just awkward. I don't want people thinking I'm just tourist all the time every day. I'm just touring and camping every day.

And this is my life last year. No, you're like, this is great. But no. I'm having to take vacation time for it and it's gonna count against the other time. There were things like that where not just my dad, but like, people in general with the filming side of things and it being very much like reality show.

So like it's your life to some degree, but it's not very realistic in other aspects. And counting the cost in our book, we go into more detail talking about how when Jill came to Nepal, it was the good buy was like scripted. Like whenever she went back to the airport, like we got in the taxi and she's like, I'll pretend to cry and you know know and she's going back home to Arkansas Basically the film crew could only stay for one week. Yeah, we wanted to have at least two weeks together and Taxi driver was completely Goodbye, seeing

Taxi driver taxi driver's completely confused like not only is this weird Why are we not taking you anywhere? Not only is this a weird situation, not only is this weird situation in America, but this would be weird because we're in a different country. Especially in a fall. And you call like your a taxi driver in South Asia. So you get a call and then like, okay, we need to go to the airport,

but we're not really gonna go to the airport. He's like, okay, and he's like, he didn't really understand it. He drives out like, okay, stop, now just take her back. Okay, now it's done, you can go. He's like, that was weird. Here's a question I actually have about reality TV. It's a good tip.

Are they, are they like paying these people for their film time, or is it just kind of volunteer? Like, hey, we want to record you for our reality TV show. I mean, the driver got like paid probably for his first free time job. Yeah, for his job. They probably got a good tip. Okay.

Good tip. Yeah. That's at least good. But they wouldn't pay, like, if our friends were on TV, like, they're not paying them to come to a birthday party or something. Got it. That makes sense. Or paying them.

But even then, I feel like sometimes the friends might get jipped a little if they are like, very much a part of whatever is happening. Okay. And then there's no way. They pay us for our birth. There's demands that are being made. It's like, oh, we need you to do this or that. And it's like, sometimes they would expect people

to kind of just, be super excited about whatever is happening. Yeah, that kind of goes, we go into that in the book too, about the lack of communication was, a lot of things could be solved just by like, better communication and better expectations or like thereof.

I think whatever some people would come into the whole filming world, friends, whatever, and some people might be more like starry eyed, like, oh my goodness, this is so exciting. Like whatever you want, I'll be there to help. And that's where Joe is. Those kind of people, like, that might be great for accomplishing whatever needs to go down with filming,

but then I hated to cease other times when people unintentionally would get, like, taking advantage of. That's where you're talking about steamroll, basically, whenever it's like, after a while of doing this, and again, I'm not saying it was intentional, but just like, because of the way things have been, it's almost like, why would you not want to be on reality TV? It's like, well, then you should be okay doing whatever requests we have you making instead of asking that person.

But that happened. Is there like a specific example you can think of that happened? The first few years of our marriage. Yes, you guys were like working full-time, or I guess initially you guys were missionaries in South America, but you're working and in addition to all that you're doing 40 hours a week of filming right? That's what your life was like. Yeah, so when we first got married, well in our early relationship, Derek was working in Nepal and then when we got married, right before we got married and our first year and a half

of marriage, he was working for... Like from the time... Walmart corporate, so from the time... From the time... About a month before we got engaged until after our first sun was born, I was working 40 hours a week as a tax accountant at Walmart headquarters.

So yeah, during that whole, 40 hours a week as a tax accountant at Walmart headquarters. So yeah, during that whole, like the progression of a relationship, engagement, marriage, early marriage relationship, birth of our first son, like all that was working full time and we didn't get a dime from filming or anything. Well, if they filmed like, and again, it was like 20 hours a week probably, just exhausting and you've got a cram it all into evenings

and weekends, you don't only have any time together outside of that as a week, probably just exhausting and you've got a cram it all into evenings and weekends. You don't only have any time together outside of that as a couple. I mean, they were perks to film me like this or that, get whatever. And you felt obligated to do that because of your parents and because of, I think, talk about in the book, but just this view of the show of being a ministry.

So you thought, okay, even though this is taking a lot of time out of my day in addition to my actual job, I'm gonna do it because I view this as a ministry. So you thought, okay, even though this is taking a lot of time out of my day in addition to my actual job, I'm going to do it because I view this as a ministry. Yeah, it was a couple things I feel like. So like we talk about in the book, it was definitely this idea of it being a family ministry, which I feel like anybody who's been in kind of this family ministry role, a PK, like a preacher kid or a missionary's kid or whatever kind of ministry your family might be involved in. Those kinds of things like you might have a hard time with that gray area, boundaries,

and kind of finding out who you are. And then on top of that, this culture that I came from where you're just this persistent, you're treated almost like a persistent teenager, like forever. Like, you're just kind of, there's not really this... Like, perpetual adolescence-based. Yeah, yeah, like, you mature quickly, but then you kind of like stay in this, in this idea of, like, yeah, just perpetually under your parents' authority and all that. So, there's not really this point where you break away. So that combined with just, it almost being this family business thing, but not really

having control and say so. So even later when we started seeing a therapist, it was really interesting to us where he could relate to us on some fronts because he said that he grew up in a farming family and a dairy farm. So he said that it was very hard to kind of sort that out with his siblings and the whole family on the business side of things. And I've heard that, like with family businesses

and getting a little hairy. We didn't even have an expectation of payment until we realized that we didn't have control. Like it was like years into our marriage where we were making the transition. We're like, okay, we were glad to have helped the family for a little bit. And we were like moving to make the transition out

and they're like, you're not allowed to go out. Like you're, I'm sorry, that's not an option. And then again, it goes back to that whole culture. Yeah. Like family culture thing, like almost like a family farm. Like, no, you can't leave the family farm. Like who's gonna take care of it? This is supposed to stay in the family.

This is our ministry. This is our family, whatever. Like you're not allowed to. It's kind of this idea. And then once we realize, well, if we're not allowed to, then like we are giving up something, so we won't at least see something in return. If that's more than fair.

Yeah, if we're being required to do it, and that's like we were fine before it, when it's just like, as we're able to, we'll do as much as we can without that expectation. But once we find out that there's a requirement, then that's gonna change things. And we need to sit down on the table at that point.

And then it, yeah, there wasn't that ability to do that. I wanted to do that a lot, so you know, count on the cost. Obviously, your family was different because you were on reality TV, but was this same thing that you were dealing with similar to what other IBLP families had in place where you were a perpetual teenager, essentially, always under your parents' authority had to obey them even when you're 25, because I think you were 25 when you guys

were touring. You have your own kids. I think that that was very much part of this IBLP culture. They had these seven basic principles, and I think the main pillar was this principle of authority, where it's almost like this umbrella of protection, they talk about where you have God, and then you have the parents and the government,

and the kids under that, and just like this ranking system. And if you're not abiding by your parents' authority, forever, then you're getting out from under their blessing, and if you're not abiding by your parents' authority forever, then you're getting out from under their blessing and if you're out from under their blessing, then you're opening yourself up to like evil and bad things happening, getting in a car crash could be as a result of not obeying your parents. Even far into adulthood. What about the boys though? What about the men? Once your brothers grew up and they were adults, was it the same for them or were they treated differently? It was, but it was different. It was the same in the way that they were expected to get blessing for decisions, especially major decisions

like buying a house. They had to get a blessing to buy a house from your day. Yeah, it would be looked down upon if you did not get your parents blessing in any major life event. So like to date someone, for sure to marry somebody, but like if you were going to stop having kids, you should probably like get their inside on that and like just everything, like if you were to go against the grain on anything, like the fact that I started wearing pants whenever I grew up wearing skirts all the time, like, was a big deal.

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Use promo code unplanned today at shipstation.com to sign up for your free 30-day trial. That's shipstation.com promo code unplanned. Back the episode. I was in their eyes, making decisions that were potentially be harmful to me, and were so big and counter their cultural, counter-cultural, that I was, I mean, I would say, I would go so far as to say like in their view,

jeopardizing my salvation at that point. And like really the reality TV just poured gasoline on the fire that was already there. Like because that would have been the case, I think, and John, I've talked about this, like with or without the reality show, this control issue would have been the case, I think. And John, I've talked about this, like with or without the reality show, this control issue would have been a thing, but it just blew everything out of proportion with like,

well now if the patriarch has more money, there's more control, and there's more things you can hold over somebody. When did you notice that your dad ended up putting the show above the family? It's hard to pinpoint like one time, because it did evolve. It was very much in a evolution.

But it was still always very much like we talk about in the book where there's this whole like it's a ministry but it's also a financial business decision as well. So you can play it whichever side you want. Like 95% sure the show would not have persisted as long as it did. If you, if as each adult subling became an adult instead I would rather not do filming. And if none of the adults wanted to do filming, it would just, it wouldn't have persisted that way.

We also didn't have the freedom to make that guilt-free decision either. You might be presented with like a pseudo decision choice whatever, but then there's still this like, but we kind of expect this to be in our good graces type thing, which I think other people can relate to as well. Like every family's gonna have their family dynamics and it might not look exactly like ours, but

in this situation, there wasn't even a pseudo choice. It was just like, here's where you need to be. Hopefully you have it. Yeah. Hopefully you feel like we have a contrast. So going through that, living through that, being the guinea pig, because I think your show is one of the first big reality TV shows if I'm not mistaken, especially a poor group of, yeah, like little people big world, John and K plus A, and then, yeah. And so many others followed,

because it did so well. And I'm sure it made TLC a ton of money and made your parents a ton of money. But I'm so curious to now with the rise of social media, we're seeing now people vlogging with their kids and I'm so curious what your take is on that too. I think for parents nowadays with social media and just involving your kids,

you have to reevaluate what's best for y'all, like what's best for your kids. Think about their long term, like what's best for your kids, think about their long-term, like what's gonna be good for them, and even if they're okay with it, is it good for them? It's kind of like giving your kid a phone. Like, are they okay with it because they like it?

And then later, like, it could be harmful, like at what age is that okay? Every family is gonna be different. And so, and then with the work or whatever, like at what point do I need to take a step back or what point do we Re-evaluate and say okay, maybe we're involving them a little bit too much. It's hard. There's not like a firm line I don't really value it like whether it's that's every six months of the year like have a real

Honest sit down discussion say We've done that like we aren. Yeah, I noticed you guys. We're gonna have it all figured out. You notice that you guys stopped showing your kids on social media. I was looking through your Instagrams and saw that you used to and then I think like two years ago, I think around there, you stopped showing your kids.

So I'm guessing you guys made that decision. You didn't wanna. I just, yeah, it was more like I was talking to Derek and I was like, I just don't know how I feel about like as we were going through therapy and just processing all of the things that we've kind of lived growing, like me growing up on reality TV and kind of my life very vulnerable moments

being pressed to show those. And then everybody, you know how it is, like people are so involved in your lives and like pop rotsy, then they want more, more, more, more, and more, and they wanna know. And if you don't post and they're like, what's wrong, are you sick, are you dying? Like whatever, you know, it's just like this constant thing.

I can't believe that, yeah, you're burst, you're wedding, everything, at the time of all that being filmed, you didn't get any sort of financial gain from that. Yeah. At the time, did you feel like you were, I guess, upon in a way, did you almost feel as if like, okay, this is the good story that the network wants to show and this is a ministry, so I have to do this.

I have to do this for my family, even though I'm not really gaining anything. That was a struggle in our marriage early on, and I respected our marriage over what I felt we should do because I don't want to like, you know, go away. I think if he had come down too hard to quit, then I would have been really bad for him. This is ridiculous for doing this

and whatever it is to destroy our marriage. I'm like, I really think this should happen, but like, I'm gonna wait until we're at a good point in our marriage, like, because I value our marriage more than I value, like, money. My golly, we're gonna do this or something, like we're gonna not do this at all. We're gonna require this or that.

You were probably thinking, okay, the show is Jill and Jess accounting on, and the birth, the wedding, all that televised, all of it, you know, biggest moment of the wedding, all that televised, all of it, you know, biggest, biggest moment of the story, biggest point of the season over four million years. Like, surely at some point we're gonna see you. And you're like, yeah, I think I'm sure that's right. Why are we not being paid a dime?

Yeah. It's just such an interesting dynamic because it's not like you can go to, like, the producers necessarily. Your point of contact is your own father. And you have this culture of IBLP or something. The whole real thing like it's just so multifaceted. It's just I enabled the behavior. Yeah, and enabled it's all feeding itself. Yeah, I feel like a big tool of control is to like isolate people and and the more Jill told me that growing up the more I was like yes That makes total sense where it's like her dad would you can isolate say yeah her dad would say

like don't talk about like finances or the show with any other people because they wouldn't understand like they don't do reality TV so you just need to like you know basically put you in a bubble and like trying to put a wall between you and other people. Something that you touched on not to do like a hard one 80 but something that we talked about earlier was your guys' courtship. And I think a lot of our viewers would probably be interested in that. Oh, yeah. Regarding we talk about relationships a lot,

and I don't think that I, like I kind of know what courtships look like, but if you kind of want to like detail what that looked like, I'm very curious. Yeah, so courtships in the world I grew up in, because I grew up in this IBLP culture, was a lot different, even though Derek grew up in a Christian home with one brother and all that,

like even his view of like dating slash, I don't think you would ever heard of courting other than your grandparents being like, I courting. My grandparents call that trillion, but everyone called it courting in the 50s. Oh, but yeah, it's his understanding of what it was like. You're still making according to the 50s. Oh, but yeah. If you, if you, if you, if you're still making out

in the car, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, it's probably. I think your grandparents called it parking. I asked them on our podcast, I was like, what, so what was parking? They didn't, they're like, no comment. That's, that's, that's, that's funny.

Yeah, so courtship in my family growing up was understood to be like, you must get the parents permission and blessing. If you don't have that like no go at all, like you don't date the person, you don't get to know the person on that level at all. It's like rebellious and uncrushion of you to do that. So courtship, you must have parents approval on both sides

like his and hers and then They have to also be very involved in the relationship like helping you make sure you're making the best decisions for both of you Like what are your boundaries? What are your rules? Like what are your standards? Are you? Like they want to know what that is like whether or not they're the ones telling you what to do, which a lot of these families, they would be kind of going down the list with you, oh, you should not do this or that like no kissing, no hand holding until whatever engagement, no, whatever that might

look like engagement would have rules that are different than the dating slash courtship phase slash pre-corship. And then, uh, I'm laughing because there's this whole with reality TV. You add that to it and it's like you have to have a pre-pre-corship. Pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre- Let's go. Let's go. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up.

Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. So you kind of have to do this secret like pre pre courtship and then you can have your pre courtship on We need a diagram. I'm kind of a diagram on camera You can have your pre courtship on camera where you're kind of getting to know them

But you kind of already know like maybe you're gonna work out and Where just friends know just this isn't just friends, but we're committed friends and then you have committed friends and then you have committed friends Then you have like the official ask but we had to like involvement cameras and all of that But I wouldn't even tell the producers until I Had an idea that I was gonna like go further, but anyways all that to say courtships very involved with like parents and their blessing Okay, and no usually it involves limited physical contact, shaperones on dates, those types of things,

varying degrees within families, like as to what that looks like. No, no dating without any, like you cannot go on a day just two of you. That's not a lot of love. But it was not usually, unless you're like 30 years old, maybe you're. Maybe at 30, you can go on one with that.

Which is funny because I'm very much like, you know. Because maybe you're mature enough to not. As a one with that. Which is funny to me, because I'm very much like, you know. Because maybe you're mature enough to not like. As a lawyer, like you want to find a rule, like what is the rule, like why a 30, why not 25 if you're mature, like what's the difference? And like if you're 25, like you have, I love her brother James, he was our chef almost the time.

But you paid him a skiddle. I love James, but he's very good. I love James, he was like 13 of the time. And I was like 25 and I was like, he's the one keeping us accountable for what we're supposed to do or not doing. You're like my brother has to come with us. Did you guys keep like a foot between you?

I'm just kidding, like, six inch rule. Actually, there was a six inch rule. Yeah, it's kind of, yeah. Like you couldn't. So could you sit next to each other but only with a six inch space? Pretty much, yeah.

Really? And could you hold hands? Not until we were engaged. And allowed to. Wow. And we didn't kiss until our wedding day. Wow, yeah. And which was on, now, you're like, how do I do?

Did you have someone teach you how to kiss? Because that's stressful. Those for the lips, right? Yeah, but that was your actual first kiss. It was on an actual television. Yeah, wow. From every angle and then they analyze it, the first actually, that's so much pressure.

When I first watched our wedding show, I cried and I called the producer and chewed him out. I was like, no, it was terrible. It was terrible. What did they do? Not because she's a diva, but because the whole thing about like just- No, my wedding was great.

It was the show, like the editing and everything. They were like trying to make it look like, I don't know, they were trying to like play up different aspects of it, or they're like rating our kiss and like having all my siblings give commentary on it. And like- But especially when, especially when like-

That's your wedding day. Yeah, I was like making about the wedding day. Like, shut up. This is like, give me a break. Plus, okay, the poor producer though. The poor producer though. He is a great friend. Like, I know these people since I was 12, you know.

So I'm like, I know them all, we hang out with each other and their kids and whatever. So I'm like, I can shoot straight. But most of the time I was a very passive person, but when I was, when I watched the wedding episode, I was pregnant. I had been sick with mono for like two weeks. I couldn't even swallow water.

You know, I'm like, and then they send me this wedding show and I watch it and I was like, I called the guy. You feel completely taken advantage of, right? No, only did they hear from me, but they got it off and earful because I was like hormones, like, oh, they'll do something to me.

Oh yeah. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I feel like in the new year, there's a lot of pressure to create a whole new list of resolutions and like completely revamp your life. And that can be really overwhelming. I mean, as I was creating my own list of resolutions,

I was like, there's some things I'm actually, I'm pretty proud of. Like, for instance, I didn't make any health-related goals in 2024 because I feel like I'm happy where I'm at right now. I go to the gym frequently. Yeah, you've inspired me to make goals that don't just revolve around business because I always think about what's a business goal

for this next year. And rather, maybe it's like, hey, what's a goal for the betterment of my well-being? Maybe it's my physical health. Maybe it's my mental health, because those things are actually really important. And they impact every other area of your life. You put in your business.

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Of course, and better help is probably the most convenient way to get into therapy. Because it's entirely online, it's convenient and suited to your schedule. You just have a brief questionnaire online and they'll match you with the license therapist. And the great thing is that if it doesn't work out for whatever reason with that therapist, you can switch to another license therapist with no additional fee. You're pretty much guaranteed to find a good fit for you. Celebrate the progress you've already made. Visit betterhelp.com slash unplanned podcast today to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp.htlp.com slash unplanned podcast. Now back to the episode. Was that your first kiss, too, Derek?

With her. Yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, so you. So again, that was my follow up question. What are your current views on courtship? Like is that something you would encourage your sons to do? Or a different version.

Yeah, I mean, I don't, I think, okay. So when we got married, we went to this marriage seminar thing and they had some really good advice, actually from this, they talked about taking things from your upbringing and kind of taking it. Like as a married couple, you've got two families of origin, like the new husband, the new wife.

I just want to find it better. I'm gonna get wrong. I'm gonna get wrong. husband, the new wife, I'm sorry, I'm trying to simplify about just thinking like, and there's certain things you want to accept from either side of your family, certain things you want to reject from either side of your family, and then certain things you can recycle and make your own. And then so like you're coming in and you're building your own family culture, like because you have the way you grew up and then the other spouse is the way they grew up. And then like, well, become your own identity, what things do you like about each of your backgrounds, what things do you not like,

and then what things do you kinda like, but you don't like the way it was done, kind of recycle it, make it your own. So, that being said, when our kids are in their mid 20s, we're probably not gonna have the same level of control in their lives, they're probably not gonna be like, working for us, living under our roof, all of the things that we like I was doing. You weren't building a house, you know?

Yeah, like it's probably going to look a whole lot different. And then on top of that, I'm not going to be telling them you have to do this, this, this. Now, I think that we will have a lot of say so as they're growing to adulthood, like what, what should relationships look like? What should this dating experience be? I'm not just gonna be like hands off completely as they're maturing. Like I think when they're under our roof,

like we're gonna have some pretty strict rules, we're not just gonna let them sleep around at home or something. But I think that it will not be as strict. And it was the day before your wedding, right? That you guys signed the contract that effectively said, I have to give away, like, I have to be able to film for the next five years if the show needs it essentially. I signed it.

You never signed it. So you're just kind of, you were doing it just to be a good son and mom. No, he didn't even know it existed. I didn't know it. He didn't know what it was. He didn't really know what it was. I didn't know what it was. Yeah, I was lied to basically like, I didn't know what I was signing.

He didn't even know that I'd sign anything because it wasn't in my mind. And I took that video to even. Unless you've been at the bathroom or something. And it's like, quick sign this while your future husband's in the bathroom. What did they tell you that you were signing you? Like, what did they say? It's just about how you're gonna get paid. For all I knew, it could have's like, quick sign this while your future husband's in the bathroom. What did they tell you that you were signing you?

Like, what did they say? It's just about how you're gonna get paid for all. I knew it could have been like something to do with like, taxes in the show. Like, I don't know. And I was naive like to think, oh, I need to know about this. I mean, I knew it was something to do with the show.

And when I asked, it was just like, oh, this is just about how you're gonna get paid. Which is that I know it until we die. So, this is like the day of my rehearsal. And like, I'm moving out. just like, oh, this just about how you're gonna get paid. Which is that I know what I'm like, whatever. So this is like the day of my rehearsal. So weird. Yeah. Like, you'll get in a heritance someday. Okay, but that's different than like agreeing to be bound by something.

You don't have to do that to get your inheritance. Was that contract with mad family ink? Mm-hmm. So literally your parents, it wasn't even involving TLC. It was a contract with your parents. Well, it was with them, but it was like obligating like my dad on my dad was like obligating the services that talent other talent to be available to TLC. Talent being all her siblings TLC, but my dad, if if the contract was broken,

he's the one that would take the fall for it. And who do you think is most at fault with that whole situation? Because obviously you have TLC over here who is only communicating with your dad, even though there's adults, you being... I thought about that reading your book. I was like, I wonder why TLC isn't directly going to you.

When it's jail and Jessica counting off. Yeah, because it's easier to deal with like one person than it is it's 20. So I assume that if they think, oh, you know, yeah, sure, like if everybody's cool with it this way, they're not, as long as they get the signatures that they need, then they don't have to worry about whatever in there. Just I think honestly in this culture too,

it's just kind of like what I la la, la, la, like what I don't know. But even if they get air wind of things, like it's probably just like what I don't know, doesn't it? You know, like I don't know, I can't speak for them, but I would say that if they had questions about how's this all going down or how's it all working out, shaking out, shaking out? Then they probably, as long as their part of things is working fine and the shows do

and find, they probably like, let's just ride this out and tell them. And my lead live, and they did not do their due diligence. Yeah. So in your book, you talk about getting this random IRS document and then you realize, wait a second, my parents have been saying that they've been paying me out money for X amount of years, and you with your accounting background went in, did some digging, and figured out the exact amount that they had claimed, I guess, to pay you, to

have paid you. And so it was at that point where, since you were going back to school, so many things were happening, you were on paper, it was shown that you were paid this money, so you just decided, hey, I think we should deserve to be paid, what was recorded for the IRS, you know? Yeah, I think it was several things. Overall, like the biggest takeaway for us was just that there were things being continually hidden.

Like, we would hit a roadblock and then her dad, because he was over a mad family ink, Jim Bob would basically make it look like he's coming forth and being like, I'm sorry, this is how it was. You figured this out. We didn't mean this or whatever. We really weren't trying to do anything intentionally. Sorry. Then move on, there'd be something else we'd hit, and it's like, no, there's this other thing.

And then it's like, well, if there's a lack of transparency, there's no transparency, because it's almost like, it's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. And once we bring something up that we should've been made aware of, and that's harmed us, it's not like, oh, well, sorry, we didn't even think about this. Like, there's this other stuff too. And like, if you need to make a decision

based on this other information too, then by all means, like, we really didn't mean to like, keep this from you versus like, oh no, like, they figured out, not figured out, but like, they're aware of this. We're not gonna, we're gonna like dig our heels in and not reveal any other information that could affect your lives.

Basically, it's a lot easier to fess up when you've been caught in it versus just like going above and beyond to just be transparent and say here's where it's at, here's what's happening. Like, I'm sorry I did this, but here's this also. And you can only claim that ignorance side of it or accident over site so many times. And so for us, when we got this tax document in the mail and then, you know, we're finding out different things, we're finally like, hey, like we've been

screwed over, this is not okay. Here's your opportunity to like prove it to us. Like prove to us that you want to do what's right. And because like there are consequences for mistakes. So like, okay, if it's a mistake, normally, if it's a mistake, you would then come back and be like, I'm so sorry, let me make it right. So make it right. Like here's what we're offering.

We felt like it was a very like clear cut. Like we laid it out clearly. Like here's, we didn't feel like it was unfair unjustified. And so we'll make the puzzle. Okay, if we felt like it was matter of principle. We knew it was not fair. Like we knew it wasn't about fairness. But it's not about fairness.

It's about principle at this point. I'm saying fair on the side of like it wasn't unfair to ask for this. It was not just, it's about principle at this point. I'm saying fair on the side of like, it wasn't unfair to ask for this. It was not the reasonable fair amount. It was less than that that we were asking for, but it was the principle of the thing. Like, okay, you say that you've changed, you say that you wanna make things right. What can you do?

You're asking us, what can I do to make this right? I feel like there's a wall between us type thing. How can I make this right? And we're like, here's a tangible number speak. So here's a tangible number. You can fix this, here's the error, fix it. Like Derek's working at accounting. And you hadn't even seen the contract yet, right?

You at that point, you weren't even aware of what you signed. We see these numbers, Derek's getting ready to go to law school and... I was ready to law school. Or in law school. And a lot of times, like scholarships are based on income. And there's been this income that's been reported in previous years that's not reflecting what our true income is, what we've actually seen.

We don't know where those checks went. So like, we're just like, okay, prove to us by your actions that what your words are, what you're saying with your words is true. And so I would not be surprised because of like what we share in this book that after our book kind of the cost if Jim Bob Dugger gets another or if mad family inks specifically gets another audit and oh really because yeah and gets in and trouble. That's not our goal. That's not our goal. But like because of just how bad things have gotten, like you don't want it to get to that point. And you hope things get made right before it gets to that point. I think you mentioned to that.

It was almost like your siblings were almost turned against you. It was almost this idea of, oh, you're a threat, you're a threat to the business and the show. Um, because you were... The trust circle. Yeah. Because you're one of the family members. It's like, there's always been this tight knit like we bind together. Anything happens. We all go out to the farm and just hunker down and like, don't let the paparazzi find

us type thing. So now that it's like somebody inside that circle questioning, then you're like, cast out to some degree. I mean, my parents have always, they've still wanted to like, you know, come bring Christmas presents or birthday presents and that type of thing, like, have some kind of relationship there. But yes, you get like, kind of kicked out or black sheep, you know, like, where do you think it was feeling what was the main reason why they weren't paying you what they reported on taxes? Was it because of worrying that your other siblings would then want to be paid

out that amount as well? Which that was one thought that was actually expressed verbally to us was like, you know, we can't do this 20 times over and those kinds of things. Yeah, like just let us control it. We know what's best for everybody. Again, it goes back to that mentality of like not recognizing the true value that's been given by the people involved, aka, your children, who are now adults, like not recognizing that value. And then also just like wanting that persistent control and leadership of this organization, you know, this this family business thing and just not wanting to let it go. Ultimately, and I'll

get my soap box a little bit like the tax law is meant to make things fair. Not necessarily again, people get equal and fair, like confused, but like the tax law is meant to be fair. And if you, a pet peeve of mine is whenever people, it doesn't matter, like rich poor, whatever, who want to manipulate that and take advantage of it and make it reflect something that's not what it was meant to reflect, or the policy was meant to push forward. And if you're singing on paper, oh, well, it's spread out this much, and we shouldn't have to pay as much taxes, but then ultimately, I'm still going to get the benefit of controlling all this money, then that's not what that was set in place to do, and it's not fair.

This episode is sponsored by Nutriful. Something about Matt Howard that you may or may not know, he has an insecurity as we all do. Yes, my hair is very fine and I had my brother take a video of my head the other day and it freaking me out. You can kind of see my scalp. I know I saw that on his camera roll and I was like, Matt, why do you take this picture? He's like, I think I'm losing my hair. And something else about Matt is that he will not make employment to save his life. So you're not going to find him in the doctor's office to address hair loss, thinning, shedding.

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that are in contract with Mad Family Inc? To my knowledge, yeah, like as far as I understand, yes. But I, again, I'm careful with what I speak about my other siblings because I, they, like I wanna protect our relationship as much as possible too with my siblings. So I am very careful, even in our book, you would have seen like that, we didn't like label people, even though there were hard times that we wanted to address

and talk about the dynamics with my siblings and how at times it was not great. And there have been some pretty heated conversations even amongst the siblings and us. I am very, I still try to be very careful about just like singling people out and all that because I haven't gone down that road as long with them and they haven't. I'm not in the same place with them as I am with where I was with my parents at that time and sorting all that out. Something I really want to commend you on like in writing your book is that it feels like you were very, it feels so candid,

so truthful. Yet so respectful, even though there was definitely like you've expressed hurt in your relationship with your parents like the way even you talked about them while sharing the truth just so much respect and I think it also adds to the credibility of your story too that you were able to see it with such through such a complex lens and Also, yeah, just even just saying like things you want to take from your childhood into your own parenting. Yeah, I think that was just very interesting because there are and I think that's one thing people People were quick to say like oh, you're just like when they heard there was gonna be a book and then they hadn't read it yet

They would say oh like everybody makes mistakes. I'm like, yes, everyone does or the baby at what the bathwater Everybody makes mistakes. I'm like, yes, everyone does. Or don't throw the baby at the bathwater. All these different things. Exactly. There are things, does everybody buckle down and say, but I'm right. In the mistakes that I made, no. But I think that's where we butt heads sometimes with my family, where they say, but this is right. And then there's other times where they're like, they do admit,

they were wrong and something, or whatever. But the roses with the words analogy. Yeah, so we do recognize that you can have the benefits and the negative parts of that story. It's kind of like roses and thorns. Like you have the beautiful moments, the fun times, the things that filming with the reality TV show brought us, traveling. My parents were like great parents overall and

Yet you have the more negative times and it's okay to not just like Look over one or the other because of that like you can bring both to the table and say We're when it's necessary like this is my story. I have positives and negatives and don't have to like Silence your story in an effort to just like keep the peace. And so I think it's very valuable to present those things. And again, you don't have to just go and tell your entire story or bash people or whatever, but where it's productive and where it's your story to tell.

That's what we're doing doing We're telling our story. We're not trying to tell everybody else's story Unfortunately intersects with other people stories at different points, but try to beat Well, and like one thing that I would push back on people with who would say like you know the fact that someone has these positive aspects of their life Bargit from being able to tell your story these positive aspects of their life, barge you from being able to tell your story because they did these good things and they couldn't have done anything bad. Is like, I mean, think about it if our society operated that way, like with people like Al Capone and it's like, mom, mobster.

This isn't an extreme example, obviously. Yeah, it works, it's true. It works, it's true. But it paints the picture. It's true. Basically, if it's a side, if you're like, oh, well, I know this criminal, like I didn't even think they were criminal,

like they've always been really nice to me. So you shouldn't punish them. Like, but given to, look at all the good they've done. It's like clown. I mentioned Al Capone because, you know, I don't think a lot of people realize he had like suit kitchens and stuff.

He was helping a lot of people. Oh, really? Yeah, he was helping. I didn't know that about him. I don't know. I don't know if someone only knew him in that context, I would say, you can't send him to jail. Like all the good things he's doing,

he's got soup kitchens, he's feeding all these people. But it's not about you're good at weighing your bad. Like just because you do good things didn't justify being able to do all these horrible things over here. It's like, well, as long as I can keep doing good things, then that'll check the box and I can continue doing these bad things too.

And with added influence comes added weight of responsibility as well. So growing up in reality TV and like promoting these things, we kind of felt this responsibility also to come in and say, hey, but here's where I think we got it wrong or here's where our story, because my family growing up in reality TV advocated for these principles. Now we're saying, but here's where maybe it didn't work out so great. Like, don't take this to the end or you might think this is what is happening and you can just live your life this way and it's all going to work out this way. But just be careful.

Be aware of these pitfalls. Like it's helpful. And the one for the show and the platform, like we wouldn't have written a book because no one would care. Like, so part of that comes with, like you feel like you called to a certain stewardship or a certain way to steward, like the platform you've been given because like, it would be a difficult road for us as it is for a lot of people who've related to our book, but they don't have the you know the platform to be able to share things that could really benefit probably even potentially more people than our book benefit because they might have like certain lessons that like go even further but then the platform's not there.

So we feel like it's possible. We're not invalidating their story. We need air and say ours is, you know, whatever. It's like, it's very much. If anything, I'm trying to like validate it more by saying like, there's some people who have even more, I mean, a lot more incredible stories. Yeah.

That would help a lot more people. Again, we just felt the responsibility to, you know, share our story and say, this isn't better, it's not worse, it's just our story. And I'm so curious, have you guys talked to your parents since the release of the book? Yes, I didn't like sit down and have a conversation and say, what do you think about the book?

Okay, not that kind of a bit. Did they read it or? I've heard that they did. Oh, okay. I heard they like listen to it on audiobook or something. I don't know. I'm just, I heard both of them did, but I don't know, like I'm not gonna,

it's, they're my parents, and I'm just, I'm gonna tread lightly. I also don't wanna just like create more controversy. It's kinda like when you get together with the holidays and there are just certain things that you don't like want to just bring up. Yes. It's probably a sore subject.

So I know that they would probably want to sit down with a therapist or something and just hash it out, but we've tried that before and it just is not the healthiest way to go about it. So we're still on the road to figuring things out. But I have seen my, have we seen both of my parents? No, I think we've just seen my mom. Was the last time that you were all together

with your parents, was that the birth of your most recent son? Uh, probably. Trying to think. But you guess it's something like that? Was it a wedding or was it a, have there been any wedding since then? I can't remember. I feel like I saw, no, no, no,

we saw them at a birthday party. Oh, okay. Yeah, we saw them at a birthday party since then. What's birthday? Joy and Austin's like one of their kids' birthday thing or something, or baby announcement or something. I don't know, some kind of family function thing. And you guys, you guys don't really talk

or you kind of say hi. But that was before the book. Oh, that's before the book. That was over a year ago. That was, but that was since we had our last baby. Yeah, yeah. Since, yeah. It's been since the book, yeah.

Like was written, but like, it was released or something. And your siblings, do you see your siblings often? Yeah, like depending on the sibling, several of my siblings, it's still one of those situations where you kind of have to like know like what am I Up for emotionally and because a lot of times there can I will debrief afterwards like Okay, like how did this go and and I would be lying if that I would say that it's completely like it used to be or there aren't any Triggers or it doesn't bring up any trauma at all like there are those moments

But I can definitely get together with some of my siblings and just have a great time and go to lunch for my sister's birthday or something. And everyone's on their own journey. But it's so hard. And that they're at a different place in their journey. Yeah. And this book is for them, just as much as it's for other people.

Like, maybe they're 17 and living under their parents' roof. It's not gonna help them right now, but maybe it's something that could be a resource for them 10 years from now. Yeah, for later maybe they would be like, oh, I can relate to your story or whatever. But yeah, there are parts of my childhood, you know, if you get together with,

if I'm getting together with one of my siblings and things aren't like they used to be, there's a part of me that's like sad about that, you know, because you're like, I wish things could be like they were before, but at the same time, kind of like I talk about in the book, it's like would I wish things could be like they were before, but at the same time, kind of like I talk about in the book. It's like, would I trade just ignorance is bliss in this pseudo bliss for where we're at? No, like I don't wanna just go back to like living

in this crazy, controlling environment. We choose freedom. Even though it's hard. Even though it's hard. And that's why our title of our book, counting the cost was so perfect for our story because it's not hard and that's why our title of our book counting the cost was so Perfect for our story because it's not just a one-time thing. It's very much like you count the cost daily I'm gonna give up like versus like not that I'm just like giving up my family for all or nothing

No, I'm doing we are doing the hard work now So far as it depends on us. We want to live in peace. Continue those relationships and continue to press on to have good relationships going forward, but it is a process and it's hard. If you're gonna do it right, it's hard. Like, it's not all or nothing. It's not just like giving up the boundaries and walking back into it or holding fast and like saying I'm out of here. Like, it's, if you're gonna do it and we live somewhat close to family, so if you're gonna like take those steps to hopefully have better relationships, it's hard work.

And like, yeah, even like doing podcasts like this, like we're trying to, you know, sometimes communicate to siblings and say like we're trying to do it. Everything we can to live at peace. And we realize that like certain siblings have one voice that they're hearing from and they don't hear our voice. So even being able to have a platform and being able to talk about these things are a potential way that like if our siblings or her siblings wanted to like kind of hear more

from a different source than whoever they might be hearing from who doesn't like what we're doing, then they could at least have a way at some point to go back and hear that. Yeah, and I wish we had more time, because I feel like I could talk to you guys for like four hours. But one last question I did have for you was, if your parents were here since you haven't seen them

since the release of the book, what would you say? What would you say to them? We love you guys. Like, I think that's the same thing that they say. Like, we've texted and we just said, we love you, like we're gonna agree we just said we love you like we're gonna agree to disagree we are our own family and we're comfortable with being our own family and where we are as the

delayed family. But we love you and we want to take steps to have a healthy relationship but what that looks like and what we're comfortable with and what they're comfortable with will probably we might have different ideas of what that looks like, but we hope that we can go forward with mutual respect for each other and it's a journey. I really commend you guys for that approach and everything that you've done with your book and your family. And I love the analogy that you gave of the roses and the thorns. I think that's so, so good.

And I don't know, I feel like everyone can relate to that with their individual stories. Well, thank you guys for coming on. If you haven't checked out Jill's book, go read it. It's really good. It's even like free on Spotify. I was, I listened to the last chapter on Spotify this morning. So check it out.

Thank you guys. It's on Kindle. Oh yeah. Kindle too. We got it on Kindle. Oh yeah. Kindle too. Yeah. We got it on Kindle. We have the physical copy too, but you guys are awesome. And you can follow them on Instagram, YouTube. You guys have a YouTube channel with with the whole fam. Yeah, we've kind of yeah, I'm not on there quite as much, but we are on social media. And yeah, check out our book counting the cost. And it's done really well. Thankfully, thanks to so much for support,

New York Times bestseller, like four months in a row here, since the garage is so on different levels. Well, thank you guys for listening. And if you made it this far, definitely consider subscribing or following the podcast while you obviously follow Jill and Derek too. But we appreciate you guys.

And as always, this is what we say, peace out dudes. Three, two, one, peace out dudes. Peace out. chill a Derek too, but we appreciate you guys and as always this is what we say peace out dudes 3 2 1 peace out dudes