The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Love is Blind, Baby #2 & Postpartum Depression w/ Zack & Bliss

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

Today's episode is sponsored by Kiwi Co, ASPCA Pet Insurance, Rocket Money, and Zoc Doc. Kiwi Co: Build the best summer ever with KiwiCo—get $10 off your Summer Adventure Series at https://kiwico.com/SUMMER with promo code UNPLANNED. ASPCA Pet Insurance: Explore coverage at https://www.aspcapetinsurance.com/UNPLANNED. Rocket Money: Let Rocket Money help you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitor your spending, and lower your bills—join at https://RocketMoney.com/UNPLANNEDZoc Doc: Stop putting off those doctor appointments—go to https://zocdoc.com/UNPLANNED to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. Today on Unplanned, we sit down with everyone’s favorite Love Is Blind redemption story — Zack Goytowski and Bliss Poureetezadi. They open up about second chances, getting married in secret, life after reality TV, growing their family, and what really happened after the pods. We also talk postpartum depression, internet backlash, Zack’s difficult childhood, and how all of it shaped the marriage and family they’re building today. Bliss' IG: @blisspoureetezadi Zack's IG: @zackgoytowski Follow The Unplanned Podcast: https://www.instagram.com/unplanned__podcast/ https://www.tiktok.com/@unplanned_podcast Listen to the pod on Spotify/ Apple Podcasts: https://open.spotify.com/show/1ToDA4ufQuWuEgMq07zN6t https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-unplanned-podcast/id1669604504 Follow Matt & Abby: Abby's Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/abbyelizabethoward/ Matt's Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/_matt_howard_/ TikTok | https://www.tiktok.com/@matt_and_abby Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/mattandabb YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/@MattandAbby Chapters: 01:00 - Love is Blind casting process + How we met 10:00 - Singing in the pods 15:23 - Redemption arc 22:26 - Ad break 24:50 - Love is Blind Divorces 30:13 - Childhood trauma 39:56 - Ad Break 44:49 - First birth story 48:47 - Postpartum Depression 52:41 - Having a boy! 55:39 - Ad Break 01:00:07 - Authenticity online 01:08:43 - Questions from audience 01:11:44 - Ad Break Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Zach and Bliss are best known from Netflix's Love is Blind, a social experiment where singles date, fall in love, and get engaged without ever seeing each other. I was really acting from a place of fear. I had this deep connection with someone I still had never met, and there were real obstacles that we were going to have to confront. After forming a deep connection with Bliss and the pods, Zach proposed to another woman first, only to realize that he made the wrong choice.

If there's any carmic justice for him dumping me on TV, then he got it at the honeymoon. We're good. When I gave birth, it was like deep, dark depression. holding my daughter, thinking about how her life would be if she didn't have me. Like, I truly say that, like, she saved me throughout that process. Now married with a beautiful two-year-old daughter and another baby on the way. Zach and Bliss, join us to talk about heartbreak, postpartum depression, and what really happens when the cameras stop rolling? With our story, I really felt like they did a

great job of telling it. And I was, I was quite frankly, really shocked because we, you know, we don't get to see it until it airs. Yeah. You see it with the rest of the world. And so scary. I did not think they would show so much of my experience because you have to remember there's like five, six different couples. We had six.

Yeah. Yeah, six different couples. And so I'm thinking like you're just going to see. And honestly, you barely, you only get to see a small amount. But so much of my story and her story really got shown. And I thought they did a really good job of. of telling it as well as they could with the short amount of time they had.

When you meet somebody new and they asked the classic question, how did you meet? How do you describe how you met to people? Yeah, it's weird. We just will be like, oh yeah, like we met like, we used to say before we were like allowed to like talk about it. Oh, because there was a period of time where you like over a year.

Yeah, it was like around a year. And some people have to wait like a year and a half. luckily we only had to wait a year. Yeah, year and a half's a long time. He was like, he were at a wedding. And his friends asking him like, or some random person you knew from college was like, oh, how did you guys meet? He was like in an experiment.

And he was like, ha, ha, ha, but like, how did you actually meet? He's like, yeah, in an experiment. Because love is mine is technically an experiment. That's kind of how they want you to like think about it when you're watching it too. It's like a social experiment. And it was the guy thought you were like totally being like a jerk and like not answering the question. But now we actually just kind of say like, oh, yeah.

like we got married, you know, and love is blind. People are like, what? Like, that's real. And I always think about how, like, our children are going to have, like, the most interesting, crazy story to, like, tell about how we met. Seriously. How does that even come about? Like, you end up on a reality dating experiment show.

Like, how does that come about? For me, I got a voicemail. And, like, I'm the type of person who has probably, like, 45, like, unlisted to voicemails. Like, I never listened to my voicemails. My phone's always on, do not disturb. But I, like, randomly listen to the voicemail, and they're like, oh, we're doing like a documentary and Seattle.

And I was like, oh, whatever, like a documentary. Okay. And, you know, there's so many scams and things out there. So, like, what do I know? But I randomly called it back and they're like, oh, have you heard of love is blind? And I was like, oh, yeah, I have. They're like, oh, we're like casting. Like, where did you get my information?

Yeah, seriously. Like, who submitted me for this? And it's still a mystery to this day. I have no idea. They scouted you. You're kidding. Like, I literally don't know. You don't have any guesses.

like there's no family friends. I asked them. I'm like, who submitted me, you know? And they were like, oh, well, we can't say. I'm like, what do you mean you can't say? This is about me. This is like my information, you know? They're like, oh, well, like, some people get it from like hair salons.

I'm like, hair salon. So, like, asked my hair sauce. I'm like, did you submit me of this? She was like, no. So I still don't know. Oh, isn't that weird? I know. And I ask my family and my friends and they're like, no.

And I'm like, okay, they couldn't have just like gotten my phone number like randomly. Like, someone had to give it to them. So it's still a mystery. You would think they want to fess up right now. Yeah. It's been a success story. They want to take credit. Exactly.

You may need to re-ask everyone now, but it's been like up like four. We were so close to not going on the show. Both of us. Both of us. It's actually pretty wild. Yeah. What happened. For me, it was my sister that had nominated me for the Bachelorette.

Really? Yeah. And so they had gotten the information through that. I guess they kind of share information. I don't know. The Bachelor had passed. But apparently Love is Blind was interested. And I didn't know what Love is Blind was. I had no idea. It just came out during COVID. And that is right around when they reached out to me.

So apparently it had become this big thing and I didn't know, I had never watched reality TV. And they called me and I was at a point in my life where, you know, things were going well with my career. and I really was just trying to find my person. I knew I wanted to have a wife. I knew I wanted to have a family. And that was really my top priority at that point. So I thought, well, I was either going to move to Austin, Texas, or I was going to move to Seattle because I was in central Washington.

And the dating was pretty rough. People say dating in Seattle is rough, but you try dating in Winanche, Washington. Say that one more time. Yeah, what an inchie? Winanchi, yeah Winanchi, Washington. Yeah, it's cute. It's actually really beautiful.

I think it's like 40,000. Wait, that's like Abby Small Town. She's from Quincy, Illinois. Oh, okay. Yeah, cute. There's actually a town called Quincy that's like... In Washington, yeah. Yeah, it's really near.

But it's beautiful. I automatically like it. But yeah, so the people who reached out to me didn't know that I lived in Central Washington. They thought I was in Seattle. So they're like, so it was Winanchi pretty close to Seattle. And I was like, well, it's like a two-hour drive if that's close.

Oh, Midwesterners, that's close. That is right around. So I didn't hear from them for like three months. And then apparently... It's actually such a long process. You go like months without hearing anything from them in like the casting process. But I really like genuinely thought that they were just like, oh, this dude's not in Seattle. but then ran I was in Austin, Texas, looking at the city to see if like, hey, this is where I want to move.

And then I got a phone call. And it was from one of the producers who had interviewed me. And they were like, hey, I really think that you are a good fit for this. We'd love to, you know, move you along further. And I was like, oh, okay. I thought you guys kind of passed. It's so funny because, like, he's so, like, I feel like his family and friends would be like, Zach is the person that would go on reality TV.

Like 100% he's not shy. He doesn't get embarrassed about anything. And I'm like the total opposite. My family was like shocked that I was like willing to like go on this. And I had just, I had gotten out of a relationship. And I was like, I was kind of like the why not mentality. Like what could happen. Like sure, just go have this experience.

Like nothing's probably going to come from it. Like whatever. A lot of people don't even get shown on it. So I was like, oh, whatever. And it's funny because this is where we've ended up for it. But I'm like the op, which is we're very polar opposite in that. Like I'm more, I don't like attention as much. And it's just like really funny that I ended up doing it.

And here we are. There were so many miracles along the way. Like that, I mean, I reached a point and this is kind of skipping ahead where I was just like, I think, I think God is telling me something here. I think that there's a message and I'm not going to ignore it. That's what really gave me the faith that kind of take that leap. one of the things that really gave me the faith. But I didn't know about this until after we got married,

but you want to tell them what happened. So it was still when they were testing everyone for COVID if they were going on production in any way. And I like had not had COVID that whole time that I got COVID. Like two weeks before I was supposed to leave for the trip. And they come into your house and like test you. And if you test positive, like that's it. Like you're done.

And so like I like had like eight or nine. days to like get red of the COVID and test negative for it. So I, it was like crazy because sometimes you test positive for a long time. And somehow I tested negative. I like drank so much water. And like, I don't know. It was like, oh, it was kind of like a lot of odds stacked against us actually going. But yeah, everything was so serendipitous. The day, the day before they were set to fly out. She had, she had COVID all the way, like tested positive. All right. All right. the way until the day they tested me. The very last one.

Wow. Otherwise, she wouldn't even been there. We never would have met. That was crazy. Zach, you had quite the redemption arc on the show. I don't know if you guys watched it or if you were like, oh, I don't want to watch it because it's like scary to relive all of that. Did you ever watch your season all the way through? Oh, we did.

Yeah. Did you watch it together? Yeah, we like stayed up until midnight until it was released and like watched it. I think we wanted to like be aware, you know, and it's also like so cool to like see our story and all the ups and downs and everything in between. It was it was pretty funny for me. But I think for you, if you were to be embarrassed, maybe that's the time you were. I don't know. You never get embarrassed by.

There were quite a few moments that I was embarrassed. I'm just thankful not all of it made the cut. I'm so curious. What did it make the cut that you're like, oh, I'm glad that stayed off? Well, you only see me sing once. You sing multiple times. Oh, I sing the bliss the entire time we're in the pods. I serenaded her like every day.

You know, we couldn't have music. And so I was like, what am I going to do without music this whole time? And I make me a joke to my family that they're just going to make the guys sing to me in the pods. And he definitely delivered on that out. Yeah, yeah. I was actually told, and this is my thought, because it was copyrighted music, right? That it wasn't going to make the cut, right?

Because they're like, you know, if you're going to play any music or sing a thing, you know, just don't make it copyrighted. So I thought, okay, you know, it's not going to be in there. And I remember talking with someone about it, and they had told me that me singing was not going to end up on the cut. Maybe they were trying to just make you not scared. So when we watched it, that moment, literally.

Oh, my, I was just like, no, no, no. I mean, yeah, I knew there was a chance that was going to get in there. But yeah, that was, that was a embarrassing moment. Would you be willing to serenade us right now? Oh. I feel like his voice has gotten better because he sings with our daughter all the time. Wait, that's so sweet. What do you sing?

to your daughter. Hey Jude. Hey Jude. I sing Hey Jude to her. Is there like a certain like a, like a, like a, a way you sing it to her that's like specific. I like it like in a lullaby form, you know? Um, no, I just think like she, she has, she has memorized, um, about 50 songs. And I pick this up. It was, it was wild. I remember now she's kind of gotten more into improvbing. It used to be she would just sing them exactly how they are, but now she'll change characters. And she has fun like playing around with the songs. But at around eight months, I noticed that she was repeating the last word of every sentence when I would sing her songs to bed. And then I started to pause and I realized she wasn't just mimicking me. She had memorized the words. And then I started to

like pause longer and then fill it in. And she will be able to do like every other word. She can sing music by Zach Bryant. She can sing the Beatles. The Beatles, the Beatles, the Beatles, Jude is her favorite for some reason she loves hey dude right now the ABCs are also all the ABCs she'll say ERX and I can't correct her you know you don't want to correct these cute little things that they do because you wanted to last forever she's sweet she sings hey dude she'll say hey dude she'll say when skies are great not gray when she sings you're my sunshine it's literally the best how old is she now she just turned two oh yeah she's wild and crazy, but so fun.

They're like, your second one's more going to be more wild. I'm like, really? Yeah, it's not the case for everyone. No, we're in for it if that's the case. What was it like? There's probably not many people in the world that like watch footage of them on a honeymoon with somebody else on like Netflix, you know? It's like watching that.

How did you like talk through that? I'm guessing probably some like frustration probably came up. Yeah. Watching that back. You know, honestly, that's what I'm really grateful for that time period we had in between getting married and then an airing. Like, we were able to talk through literally everything. Like, he told me everything that happened. I told him everything that happened.

I really feel like we were able to work through that, like, really well beforehand. I know there's other franchises where they, like, will have a really quick turnaround. I think, like, The Bachelor has a really quick turnaround. And I'm like, in a way that's good, but a way not because you don't able to, you're not able to settle. into your marriage and settle into things like work things out you know which i'm again really grateful for you're not in the spotlight during that time no one knows so i think you know one thing about zach he's a really honest person and i really trusted him which is why i was like felt confident enough to say yes at the altar even after everything we went through yeah um and so i just i knew i you know

there was no really surprises i mean obviously like seeing it visually is a different thing but i wasn't like surprised by anything because he was so honest and Honestly, like, it was such like a, it was just so cringy. Like, the way he was treated was so terrible that it was just so, like, hard to watch from, like, a person that I love, like, being treated that way rather than, like, a place of, like, anger, you know? Yeah. Or, like, jealousy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really, I don't know. And it's honestly, like, if there's any carmic justice for him dumping me on TV, then he got it at the honeymoon. And that's how we're good. We're even now. Well, you know, that was honestly, I felt like Jonah in the whale when I was in Mexico. Because when we were in the pods, there were so many signs that Bliss was the person that I was supposed to be with.

And maybe it wasn't clear to me in that moment, like, that I should take that leap. But I was really acting from a place of fear. And I had, and some of this I think maybe it was subconscious and some of it was conscious. But with Bliss, I was very afraid that we wouldn't work out. I had this deep connection with someone I still had never met in person. And there were things that we had discussed, some of which you don't see, that were real obstacles that we were going to have to confront. One that doesn't really get explored deeply was that I have to. allergy-induced asthma to animals and she has had a dog and a cat now we have two dogs

and a cat but I mean it it was bad it was really bad and I didn't know if we were and they're like my babies at that point you know like I was like these are my children and oh my gosh like what the heck is happening here and when I told her about that the response was not I was like, why is this happening to me? I was like, we'll get through it. I was like, uh, and like honestly, I had come out earlier in our dates because you date for like nine or ten days, which seems so short, but it's so weird when you're in it. It feels so different.

But I might have not even like continued on dating him, you know, because like, those are my babies. Yeah. And yeah, so there were things from my past that were kind of bringing fears up. and then I didn't really think that I was going to be accepted by her family based on what she had told me about her family and my own experiences. I'd made some preconceptions about what you have to, though, you know, like you're talking to someone through a wall.

And I think the level of connection that we had, I was really afraid that I was going to break her heart. and that she was going to break my heart and that I didn't know how long that it would take to get over that. And a lot of people don't understand that everybody's dating everybody. Right?

And I think when Love is Blind first came out, people thought like, oh, this person's a player. And they're like, because you just see it for the first time and you're like, why is this person dating three people? And they're only showing certain dates. They can't show everything. Oh, got it, got it. You start out dating 15 people.

I mean, maybe that's a prerequisite for anyone who hasn't, watch the show. You start out dating 15 people. On the first day, you cut that in half. And then progressively, as it goes along for about 14 days, you cut it down and down and down until you're either down to two people or three people. And then you can go all the way till the very end dating that many people. And now it's been around long enough.

People kind of understand. But it's kind of hard to understand how you can fall in love with multiple people that quickly or even fall in love with anyone that quickly. And the reality is, the people who have made that show, they are experts in love and connection and psychology. And they, if you follow the process, the way it's designed, they've already handpicked people who are compatible

and likely more than, more people than are, you know, hopefully, right, because love triangles are good television, right? Oh, gosh. And so you're facilitating an environment. They say it's like two to three, like you're compatible, super compatible with like two to three people because you answer like so many questions, like a ridiculous amount of questions and personality tests and all of these things as the process of getting casted. Yeah.

And then you're being vulnerable about things that are very intimate that you've probably never shared with anyone or if you're doing the process the way it's intended or very few people. You're having really, really intimate, vulnerable conversations. In fact, when I realized that, I almost left on the first day because I don't know, I hadn't really contemplated it. Like, yes, I was looking for my wife, but I didn't think about having to open up about my vulnerabilities about my fears in front of the entire world. You know, things. like losing my mother, I mean, I had had friends, close friends that I had never talked to. You know, we, we, about that.

And we'd been friends for five years. Never came up. The show really helped me actually become a lot more vulnerable as a person and changed me in that way. But going in, I, I was like, okay, if you want to find your person, you have to be vulnerable here. this is you you've got to do it and uh i decided that i was going to do that um sorry that kind of got a little bit of no you're good i'm glad you brought up vulnerability because i've i noticed watching you on the show and seeing you talk about that and talk about your mom and talk about like even even just like the silly jokes you made when you when you like opened up by saying

yeah i'm a stripper like just to kind of like see how how people would react like i guess my question for you is do you think embracing that vulnerability was the right like are you glad that you did that because you can't really ever take any of that back you've you've opened yourself up in a really big way to so many people and like you said before you weren't even telling your own friends about these these deep things so how how has being vulnerable changed you as as a man and as a person yeah I you know I think about it a lot. Vulnerability is the key to connection. And if you're looking for love, you can't get there without being vulnerable because you have to show your true self.

Yeah. And until you've shown your true self, you're never going to have real love. And that means showing your fears, showing the things that you feel inadequate about. Those are the things that really connect people. And so I don't have any regrets about opening up and being vulnerable. And I think, like, we need more vulnerability in the world. And I think that's really real strength. You know, when you meet someone who's able to show you their weaknesses, that's someone who's strong.

That's good. It's so interesting because, like, as someone who knows you just kind of posts or during the experience and, like, post it, like, I think you're very quick to be vulnerable with people now. I feel like it's not something you really struggle with anymore. And I think your family, like, family had never met a girlfriend before. Like it was a totally, I think like a total 180 that they saw from you at least from going from someone who was kind of more closed off to things to someone who was

like very open very quickly with people. I was very private about my dating life. Yeah. Like it did not talk to any family about it unless it was someone who was very serious. Thank you to KiwiCo for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. You guys, summer is fast approaching. In fact, we're already here. And we need to find activities and ways to keep our boys. entertained while still learning things that don't involve screens. That's what we're huge fans of KiwiCo. If you haven't heard of KiwiCo before, it's learning toys for kids delivered right to your doorstep. We have actually started using KiwiCo when we first had our first child.

So we have been using their products for years. They also are great at encouraging kids to get outside and explore. And with the summer adventure series, kids receive six hands-on project kits with enriching and fun activities. Kiwi-Co crates offer a range of topics. for each age with some summer adventure kits featuring playing with bubbles, exploring the stars, or building things. I remember the first KiwiCo crate we ever got was those color contrasting cards, those black and white contrast cards. And now we have gone through so many different stages where now we're actually using like a lighted board with shapes and getting into building

and like little kids physics. It's really, really neat to see their learning bloom through KiwiCo. Build the best summer ever with KiwiCo. Get $10 off on your adventure series at KiwiCo.com slash summer. promo code unplanned. That's $10 off your summer adventure at k-I-W-I-C-O.com slash summer promo code unplanned. Yeah, see, for me, like, sometimes I have foot and mouth syndrome where I just like, I just start talking and I'm like, why the frick did I do? I have that.

But I think you're right, though. I do think vulnerability of strength. And I do think, I think that's the only true. that's how you make the realist connection is through that vulnerability. The other factor, though, here is having an entire audience watching you date and get engaged and get married and then, or actually, I'm sorry, I got ahead of myself, date, get engaged, call off the engagement, then get engaged again, then get married. And there was an article that came out recently, which kind of shocked me just a couple days ago.

Apparently, there have been eight divorces, I guess, from the Love is Blind franchise. And you guys are one of the few couples that it worked. And you have baby number two on the way. Like so many good things are happening. I wanted to ask, why do you think so many divorces have happened from the Love is Blind franchise? It's my perspective. I'll let you share yours first. You know, I feel like divorce and like relationships ending happens, like even in

the real world outside of television and outside of experiences, experiments like this. I think, is it still 50-50? I'm not sure if it's still 50-50, but if it is. I mean, that's kind of somewhat of a reflection of what you see just through Love is Blind. Obviously, when you get married so quickly, it's difficult to cover everything. It's difficult to cover exactly how you plan to raise children.

You might have really a big difference is. there that could potentially cause, you know, a marriage to end. There's just, it's just so much so quick. And I also think that the pressure of being in the public, I can definitely add to that. Like, I kind of spoke earlier about how you have that time period in between of creating a really strong foundation. And sometimes that, you know, maybe that doesn't happen all the way. Like, obviously, we don't have like complete deep insights into why everyone got divorced and

what exactly happened there. but my kind of take on it is when you watch people fall in love, it's like very romanticized and there's these really high expectations of oh my gosh, this is going to last forever. This is like my favorite couple. This is going to all, you know,

it's going to be forever and ever. And in reality, like they're still human and there's still that kind of like 50, 50% chance maybe of ending in divorce. That's kind of my take on it. Can I give you my take on why I think you guys have worked out? Tell me.

So we, so actually, surprise. Wow. What? I want to hear it. I love it. No, I'm so interested. This is just my like outside opinion, but I'm also, I'm interested.

Okay, so we actually, we're friends with Lauren and Ari from the Bachelor franchise. Oh, yeah, they live here. That's right. And yeah, and so, like, they're, they're awesome. They're such a sweet couple. And it's funny, we've watched their season too. We watched their season after we, like, we're friends with them. So it was like a really weird.

Yeah, I was really like. Let's never admit this. And then the next time he sees him, he's like, I had to tell you so. Because I have flipped mal syndrome. Like, I can't help. myself. So I tell them that and it was weird because yeah we saw Ari kiss like other women on the show anyway. But like I think and same thing with the Bachelor franchise there's been so many couples that didn't work out but I think why they worked out was because they kind of broke

the script of the show like he ended up very similar to my story. He ended up choosing the girl that he turned down and that's exactly what you did. But you kind of broke the spell of like the reality TV experiment thing. Totally. And And so it made a choice yourself. Exactly. So you guys chose like you chose completely on your own outside of the reality TV side of it. Because you didn't really do the stereotypical cookie cutter method. That's a really good theory, Matt.

How it was supposed to be. I think that's why it's working so well. Honestly, like we've talked about that. And like I think even maybe Zach says for him, so I don't want to speak for you, babe. But like he feels like he had to go through that in order to actually be ready to say yes at the altar. Like he had to like lose me He had to like go through that experience of like

This is what my world would be like without her Like I actually really want to be with her Yeah And we went through something really real You know like that you're right Doesn't happen in those worlds You're like in literally a whirlwind romance Like if you didn't break up

You're in limerence There's like the oxytocin is going crazy Like you're literally like high on love And you get married in that state Rather than like going through trials And like tribulations and things, and we actually went through something really serious. Like, we broke up.

Like, he broke my heart, you know? And then, yeah, we got back to, so honestly, I think that's a great theory. I really do. Yeah, I'll tell you, when we broke up, I knew immediately I had fpped up. I knew I had made a mistake. He's working on saying the F word around this car. She was like, I want some water the other day. I was like, oh, my gosh.

Your two-year-old said the F word. Yeah. Yeah. She's said it on the plane, like really loud. She's really good. She's really good with her words. You just turn two? Yeah.

Yeah. And she'll just say it. It's not going away. I've tried to extinguish it. I'll be like, what the duck? What the duck? And she goes, what the? She does it with intonations.

Like, what the? We're like, oh. You're like, beautiful. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. That's funny, actually. My gosh.

Yeah. Our kid. What is Griffin saying? No, he just said it one time. He said freaking. He said, and I'm so, I'm such a preschool teacher. I'm like, I don't like the way that sounds. He said, he said something about it.

He's like, that was freaking awesome. Abby's a better person than me. I do say freaking awesome. And it's like, I say that too, but I don't know. Just their little kid voice. I was like, oh, stop that. It's wrong. They're little innocent baby voices.

So we're trying to correct that. Like, I just have to add that. It's like, you know, that's how I grew up as a kid. And it's, it's ingrained into me. So it's not going anywhere. Wait, no, I thought we were working on it. I'm working on it. Working on it.

I actually remember as a kid, you know, this is kind of dark. But like my mom and my stepdad arguing and my cousin and I, we were in Las Vegas, actually. And we counted how many times they said the F word. And we were like, 89. 186. Just counting it down. That's awful. Yeah.

But so after after that, did that F you up? Like going up with hearing your mom and your stepdad argue all the time on top of everything else? I saw a lot of messed up stuff as a kid. I mean, like a lot of domestic violence, a lot of, you know, like having to call the cops to make sure like my mom or, you know, whoever she was with didn't end up injured or, you know. Like, yeah, yeah. I saw a lot of stuff. Gosh. But anyways, when I broke...

I'm really sorry to hear that. It's a guy. I guess how does that affect you now and the role as like a parent, like figure? Like what... Now that you're in charge, like of your household and how, like, you guys interact and how you model a family unit for your daughter

and your soon-to-be son, like, how does that influence you? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that... it's really on the positive side, it's really important that we model how to show love in front of our daughter. And we're very intentional about that. Her face lights up when she sees me kiss Bliss.

Like it is just the biggest cheesy grin. So I'll just come into the kitchen and just give Bliss all these kisses. And my daughter's just like, and then we'll go give her kisses. But modeling love, you know, like the obvious is like no domestic violence. Like we don't have any. issues with that.

I just, I also think, like, the use of violence and conflict is, is a cowards, cowards method, right? Like, if you have to use violence or aggression to solve a conflict, it's because you are either not intelligent enough to use your words, or strong enough to walk away. Like, I just, I don't think there's any excuse. I think it's made you really intentional, too, as a parent. parent. Like you're really like from what just like observing you with her like you're very intentional like you said about showing love and like making sure that she feels safe. And so like I we have a very different childhood experiences like my parents had a pretty intense divorce which impacted me pretty

heavily but I did not witness even a millionth of the things that you did. And I feel like you're a little bit more aware, you know, about like purposeful in a lot of ways. than I am in cultivating like a really positive safe environment for her. She definitely knows that she's loved and she's surrounded with so much love. And that's truthfully, the only thing I think that matters. And I think there's so much guilt that parents deal with about, you know, not being able to, I know my mother did, not being able to provide me with the things that she thought that I needed or, you know, me experiencing the things that I did.

but I remember telling her at one point, like, Mom, I'm okay. Like, it worked out. And yeah, you weren't able to do everything perfectly. But, like, I felt loved. You know, and your love was all I really needed. And I just think, like, that's what makes the world's best parent. And it's not a comparison. It's not like, oh, this parent's better than,

that if you love your kids with all your heart like you're the world's best parent because it's going to drive you right like if you truly love your kids like it's going to drive you to become a better person and to do the best you can to provide for them to sacrifice for them and I know it does me and I also the other thing that I've realized as a parent is that what I want for my daughter I think about the person I want her to be. And the best way that I can help her become that person is to become that person myself. Yeah, from-

Snap-in for that. Yeah, that's awesome. That's good stuff. I know that from learning about your story, that a lot of your childhood and some of the challenges you went through and your mom has been motivated your career choice later in life. Are you still a practicing lawyer?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No way. Yeah, I do personal injury litigation now. Okay, so that motivated criminal defense, right, was what, like, kind of motivated by your childhood. I think there was always something about me that gravitated towards criminal defense. Like in the fifth grade, I remember arguing with my teacher, I believe her name was Ms. Jameson. And there was, sorry, Ms. Jameson.

she had told this boy that he was going to get, he was going to lose his recess unless he gave this girl Lacey back her, her glasses, like her reading glasses. And he's like, I didn't take her reading glasses. And I remember arguing with the teacher, like, what evidence do you have? I literally got up and argued with the teacher. What evidence do you have that he took the glasses? and she said, well, he's done it before.

And I got, I almost lost my recess because I was sitting there. I was like, what do you mean because he's done it before? That's not evidence. That doesn't establish that he's the, how do you know that she didn't, purely circumstantial?

How do you know that she didn't lose her glasses, right? And ultimately, she did lose her glasses and they got his recess back and Ms. Jameson apologized to me. Oh, that's good of her. But, but it's, I mean,

My personality has always gravitated towards that. Justice. I believe, yeah, I believe in due process. And if we as a society are going to take away the life or liberty of others, that we had better be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that they actually did what they're accused of doing. Because if we're not really sure or we make a mistake, then the people who make the decision to take that life and liberty are just as bad. Right?

you've put someone in a cage for a year of their life, their entire life, one day of their life. So I think that burden really weighed on me for a long time. And I was very thankful while I was doing criminal defense. I was able to help a lot of people. Yeah, that's just a side thing that really interests me ever since. Yeah, well, because Abby's mom was actually going to school. Your mom went to college to go into criminal justice, right? Yeah, she's a criminal justice major.

but honestly what really sparked for me was reading just mercy. Yes. Like, did you ever read that? I was telling you guys, that's the book Abby read to me the entirety of the book in the car on a road trip. You have to read this book. I need to read it.

But it got me just so interested in, I mean, he is a criminal defense lawyer. He started a foundation too, but the Equal Justice Initiative, if you've heard of EJI. But anyway, that, obviously you know so much more about that area, but that is an area that, like,

I feel very interested in. So I think it's really cool that you like, you chose that area of law. And the realm of law, like, what is like the, I'm sure that there's a realm of it's like, okay, this is the moneymaker. This is the one where you're like kind of slaving away. Like, where does criminal justice lie in that? Well, what I would say is like in any field of law, you can make a decent amount of money. But also, I would also say if you want to make money, law is not really the place to go.

It's just not the amount of time and effort. it takes to get a law degree to get licensed, there's just much easier and more effective ways to like make money. But if you really care about justice and you really care about helping people, I think law is a great profession. But yeah, I don't know because you see like there's divorce lawyers who that say the safest actually probably field of law is family law. And there's a lot of money in that it is probably the most dangerous field of law, like substantially more dangerous than criminal law. You wouldn't think that.

Because most people, when they are losing the person they've fallen in love with or they're losing their children, mentally that is the worst state of mind that you could ever be in. And so it is, yeah, it's a very difficult field of law. There's a lot of very few lawyers who really even want to go into that field of law. Are you saying dangerous as in spouses like killing the spouse or spouses like taking their own life? Lawyers being killed by their clients. Yeah. What? Lawyers. They didn't get them the custody of the child or whatever. I didn't know that lawyers get killed by their clients. It does happen. It does happen. So you have to worry about that too. You're trying to make the world a better place. You're like, ah, hopefully no one tries to kill me today. Yeah, let's cut that bar. Just in case there's any clients watching. Thank you to the ASPCA for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. We have a furry friend in our household for the first time in our marriage.

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The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. But no, yeah, it is, it does have the highest homicide rate last time I checked. Like for public defenders, like, because you did some public defending contracts, but you weren't like technically a public defender, but that's, is that probably the one that's like more on? You make less money and it's more work, or is it? I mean, yeah. I mean, obviously if you're working on a on a public defense contract, you're not making a lot of money.

I think the people who do. who do public defense are the most committed to justice. And it's funny to me that there's this negative connotation about people who do public defense because there's a real misconception. A lot of people don't understand that if you're in a municipality, the city itself is tasked with the criminal defense budget. And typically most small municipalities will subcontract the private lawyers. So for example, where we lived in Wenanche,

the local municipality has subcontracted with our law firm, and then our law firm had subcontracted with other lawyers in the area. So our law firm would manage the public defense contract and then would have private lawyers who would take a portion of that. So like they'd take on 100 cases or 50 cases during the year. But there's this perception that public defense lawyers are somehow not as talented as private defense. And I will tell you that is not true.

I've seen some tremendously talented public defenders out there. and the opposite in the private defense, where people feel like they're getting more because they're paying for it, right? But actually, most public defenders are in trial every month. So it makes them really good at it because they're doing it, yeah. And this is like, if anyone out there

is in a situation where they are looking for a lawyer in the space of criminal defense or personal injury, the number one skill that you need to make sure your lure has is the ability to go to trial and win. That is what determines the outcome. Like at its core, a lot of criminal defense is like a high stakes poker game. And the cards are what is going to happen when we get in front of a jury. Will it be not guilty?

We'll be guilty. And there's all these variables that you're trying to use to determine the probability of that. the facts on the case, the motions for suppression that one side may do over the other, whether certain protocols were followed. But all of those are building up in litigation until you get to that trial. And the way that I was always able to get my clients the best outcome is being willing to go to trial. And I like, when you think of lawyers, you're like, oh, everyone goes to trial. Like, that's what lawyers do.

But apparently it's a very small percentage to actually go to trial and actually are good at it. So it's definitely something I learned. Most lawyers have never gone to trial. Which is crazy. That makes me, like when you describe the law as like a high stakes poker game, that kind of makes me uncomfortable because of the fact that it's people's life. Yeah. Like literally, sometimes it's literally their life. Are they going to get the death penalty, right? Going into this, this second pregnancy, because you're, you're about to give birth here in like a couple weeks. Literally. Hopefully, not now. Hopefully he stays in there until we get home. And not on the plane. Yes. It's kind of.

coming up so quick. With, yeah, with that birth, like, being, being fast approaching. What are, like, your fears, your worries, like, anything that didn't really go according to plan with the first pregnancy and postpartum experience that you're like, ooh, I need to figure out a new way to navigate that. Yeah, I feel like so much. Like, the birth itself was so intense. It was, I was in labor for 42 hours.

I was overdue. I was almost 42 weeks, which is where they're, like, have to induce you. And I got every intervention except a C-section, and I was like, I wanted to go like, no epidural and like, oh, you know, like home birth vibes. And it did not go that way. And my body would not dilate past four centimeters for 28 hours. And they broke my water, still wouldn't dilate.

I had a doula. And she was helpful in a lot of ways, but there was a point where she was like, I don't even know what to say about this. And in general, I feel like I'm a kind of an anxious person, which I didn't really realize that about myself until we got married. And we kind of were my mirror in a lot of ways. But I was just so tense about it. I was so scared. My mom, when I was 15, my mom had my little sister.

And I was in the delivery room. And she literally almost died. They had, she was bleeding out. They had to start cutting her open while she was still awake in order to remove her. uterus in time to save her. And I was in the room while she was just gushing blood and it's like convulsing. And so I feel like I carried this trauma with me. And I still kind of have that trauma with me going into my birth. And so I think I was just so, as much as I tried to be calm, I just wasn't. And I don't know if that's why my body wouldn't progress or if it's just this is my body's first time doing it and it doesn't know what's

going on. Yeah. So it was really, really scary for me. And I remember kind of like anxiously reminding the doctors because each time, every time a doctor would come in, I think they rotated like every six hours or something. And I would like tell them that my mom had this experience because like I didn't want to die through giving birth.

Yeah. And it was, it was really scary. This time around, I feel a little bit better about that. But my mom also. had three, two births prior to that that were totally normal and okay. And then the third birth was the one that was so intense and where she literally almost lost her life and had to get almost all of her blood, um, through, placed through a blood transfusion. It was really scary. So are you saying they basically started a hysterectomy during like, like while she was awake? Like they did the whole

thing while she was awake. So they were she, they were able to like get her out in time before that was completely done. But she remembers literally being cut open. They were shooting her with no the cane as they were cutting. And her doctor came to her. I'm going to get emotional, but the day after, and we're still really close with her. She literally saved my mom's life and was crying to her. Like, I saved you. Like, you were, I had 20 minutes to get your uterus out or you were just gone.

And I remember, like, when they kicked us out of the room and took her off to the OR, like, looking at my baby sister and like, my mom is someone who I admire and just love so much and to think that like she would possibly like never know her. It was really hard and scary. So birth carries a lot of like scary things. You know, and I think in our country, the birth or the maternal death rate is really high compared to a lot of other countries that are on the same level technologically and medical and science-wise as us. So it's a scary thing. I think postpartum depression was really bad for me with my daughter. And it's weird because I was so happy when I was pregnant with her. Like I felt like any sort of depression I ever had or anxiety was gone. And like you even would comment on that,

like how I seemed so happy. It's like the pregnancy hormones like fixed my depression. And then when I gave birth, it was like hard and fast, like really quickly, like deep, dark depression. And I really struggled with breastfeeding. She lost a ton of weight and I had to supplement with formula. And I had to get a lactation specialist, which is honestly something I like recommend to anyone who's a first time mom that hasn't nursed before. That really helped us. But the lack of sleep, like it's going through having a child, it's kind of like a real

shock to your whole life. It really like your whole life completely changes and it's obviously like such the greatest blessing ever. But it was postpartum depression was really, really, really hard for me. And I'm very scared of that happening again, to be honest. Like I think I've struggled with a little bit of, do they call it prenatal depression or I don't know what they technically call it, but like kind of like some depression during my pregnancy has kind of flared up a little bit here and there.

So I and it's one of those things where it's like I felt like I really prepared the first time around for it. Like I talked to my doula about postpartum depression and I was like, this is our plan. But can you, I don't know, as much as you have a plan for something, like sometimes it doesn't work out that way. So I'm a little apprehensive about that. And also having a toddler, like I can't go that deep into it again because she needs me to be functional, you know, as well. as my newborn. So yeah. How did you how did you find your your way out of that? I mean to be in a what feels like a deep dark pit that you're trapped in and you can't get out of and you can't see the light of the end of the tunnel. What was something that you found to be helpful for getting

getting you back? Honestly like holding my daughter like seeing her like thinking about her life and how her life would be if she didn't have me and how. that literally motivated, motivated me to, like, be here for her. And just honestly, like, my love for her, like, I truly say that, like, she saved me throughout that process. Um, we had a lot of help from my mom. We were so grateful.

She lived with us for about a year. And that really helped me. Um, I think I got into a place where I wasn't doing, like, any self-care at all. And just, like, going on walks. Like, exercise has always been something that's really helped me kind of get out of my head. And so even just going on walks was really helpful for me. and just time, really truly time and talking to other women that had experienced it as well. And actually I ended up taking medication for a while.

I'm just remembering that. But yeah, I took medication too. And I think that actually helped me as much as I'm like, I want to do things very naturally. And that wasn't something that I ever wanted to do. I feel like I needed to at the point that I was at. Yeah. And I'm sure you opening up.

about your experience too with struggling postpartum and even choosing to take medicine. Like that is giving so many moms that are listening, like that freedom to get that help afterwards because like you said, you can go into postpartum knowing that this is something that can happen. But until you're in it and you're experiencing it doesn't really, it doesn't have that same weight, you know? And so I think that's honestly, that's really candid. of you to share like, yeah, I'm still, I've been through this again and I'm apprehensive about doing it

again. But here you guys are, you chose to have another baby. And it is such a blessing and like, really exciting. This time you're having a boy. So how does that feel? It feels honestly, like weird, honestly. I'm like, we know how to do a girl. And maybe they're not that different. I don't know, but it's, it's definitely we have to think about things a little differently, you know, like I keep being like, I have a boy in here. Like there's a boy. That's so weird. But it's also like obviously 50, 50% chance that it would be a boy.

It's so weird because like obviously yes. And you're like, yeah, they can be. It's a kid. Like it can't be that different. But for us like the thought of having like a boy, another. I was like, well, yeah, that's that makes it a little easier. And I'm like, why? Because you know.

It does. Like maybe it doesn't. But like in my head, I was like, oh, well, okay, that'll be, that'll be, that'll this is a little easier. Like, we know how to do this. Yeah. But, yeah, every kid still brings their own unique.

Totally. Like, you know, their quirks and everything. So do you intend, and you said that you had struggled a little bit with breastfeeding before. That was, I feel like that's something that what really was shocking from us, like, especially me, I was just like, oh, this is natural. And it is. But then there's some times there's like, what is, what is, this just feels like the

most unnatural. Literally. And it hurts so bad. So do you intend? on trying that again? I do. Yeah. Yeah. You know, something that my lactation specialist, like, told me that really kind of stuck with me is, like, just kind of like our day and age. You don't really see breastfeeding as much. You're not like seeing it like as you would maybe like 200 years, 300 years ago in like a village or whatever where everything's just all out in the open. Like,

there's not that cultural aspect of like, oh, I'm passing this down to you, all this knowledge down to you of how to do it. Because like you said, it's natural, but it's also like feel so unnatural. I also feel like our generation was mostly formula. Yeah, I was a formula baby. Yeah, I do. I think it was best for maybe like two months. I think my mom was like, what in the heckering? That's a good point though, because especially like in our Western culture,

it kind of feels like something that you have to hide. Yeah. Like, you know, especially with just the coverings and everything. Like it's, it's funny to me. I don't know. I feel like by the third, that's something I'm going to give up. Oh, yeah. It's out open.

Oh, wow. We were just in Hawaii. Yeah. We were just in Hawaii. And, you know, there's a lot more of like embracing of the, the east. Eastern cultures out there and a lot more like crunchy moms. Yeah. It was funny to me like Abby and I were at a strawberry.

Yeah. A lot of open nursing. Yeah. They're just like a strawberry patch like picking strawberries for their kids and they're just moms like out like breastfeeding and we were just like really threw us off and I'm like it's so natural like it's so like why is it that we have to be all like oh yeah because then yeah the moms have no idea what the freak to do when it comes to breastfeeding. Yeah.

Yeah. Those are babies just get so sweaty under there. I remember taking our kids out from under there and there's like they're like red face We need more now. I don't want to eat when I'm hot. No. Literally when I'm hot, I'm like, no, please, I'm over-stimulated as it is. Like, yeah.

And so I feel like that was also part of our kids' frustration. They're like, what is it? Too hot. They're a sauna session. Thank you to Rocket Money for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. I don't know about you, but as a parent to toddlers, we've had so many moments where our kids just grab the TV remote and start pressing buttons and they buy subscriptions without our permission.

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RocketMoney.com slash unplanned. I think the funniest thing to me, though, is just the freaking, like, the body transformation that, like, you women go through. like seeing Abby just like freaking I just I felt bad for at one point so I'm like that is a watermelon like I'm like that that cannot feel okay no you know it doesn't it doesn't you just imagine you ladies really go through it for our kids oh my gosh well I I breastfed until I was like what three or four months pregnant um which was crazy and so I feel like my body never even got a chance to go back to like normal not even that it would ever be what it was before bless me my old body. I didn't know what I had, honestly. But it's straight into it, you know, like straight

into like, like my sister was like, what size bra are you? And I was like, I don't even know. I've been like in nursing bras since like I gave birth two years ago. Like I literally don't even know. It's such a weird thing. That was while I also went from breastfeeding to pregnancy and then I had a big gap. And that's when I was like, oh, oh, things are different. After this. And it is wild. And it's one of those things where I don't know how you feel. Also, I feel like my feelings on this fluctuate a lot. It's a lot easier to have like body freedom when you're pregnant.

I feel like you're like, yeah, it is what it is. Like we're growing up baby. What do you expect of it? But then sometimes like there's days where you're like, especially for me, it was like postpartner. I was like, wow. Like when you say blessed your old body. I was like, hide every picture of me before I had children delete them all.

But then like now I'm like, hang on to them for your life. will never see that again. I feel like there's just a certain like aspect now where I've been like, you know, years into having kids, obviously still new to being a mom where I'm just like, it is what it is. Like this is just such a, like it's just your life gets put into such a perspective when you have children where you're like, you know, am I really just so worried that I don't fit in those jeans anymore or am I so worried that I don't know, things are hanging lower

than they ever should? But like it's like there's just a certain thing where you're like that is such a small price to pay for this gift. But then it's also valid to like struggle with it too. You know. Yeah. I totally agree that I kind of like vastly in and out of like it doesn't matter. And then I'm like, uh, it kind of like does. Like I was actually thinking the other day like my, you know, like I'm just like wearing something super tight and it's like my belly's out. And it's like when I give birth, I'm totally not. I'm like, will I even feel comfortable doing that? I'm going to like want to wear baggy things. But it's also like also need to honor my body. You know and what it just did.

Because of my daughter, I feel like it's made me be, I don't want her to ever feel that way. You know, I want her to always be proud of her body in every day, especially after she gives birth. Like, your body just like literally created a human being. Like there shouldn't be any shame around how your body looks after that. And so I'm trying to be a good example for her. Now that you've, you know, done reality TV, you guys both have, you know, large social media followings. do you feel any pressure to, you know, like, yeah, do you feel that pressure as an influencer to make everything look perfect? Or how do you balance that struggle of being real while you're battling postpartum depression, but also wanting to protect yourself at the same time? How do you navigate all of that? It's so hard. I feel like Zach and I kind of have always, I feel like been really authentic online. I think just as people, do you not agree?

No, I agree. Okay. I think as people, it's really hard, especially at our ages. Like, it's just hard for us to, like, put up, like, a facade or a front. Like, I just don't have any energy for that. That's also not what I want to cultivate in our society for the sake of, like, children that are growing up right now. Like, for things to be perfect, for things to be, you know, perfectly orchestrated or whatever. I think people that do follow us and know us and love our story, I think they gravitate towards us because we're very,

about that. Like if you look at our pictures, we're not like overly like polished by any means. And I did, you know, when I was ready, I feel like you have to be ready to open up. Like sometimes there's things that happen in your life in the moment you're not ready to share that, you know, and you take time to process that yourself. And then there's a time where okay, I'm ready to share that. And like through my experience with postpartum depression, while I was like really deep in it, I wasn't sharing a lot of. anything, I wasn't talking about it because I wasn't in a like a ready to. And then when I was, I was ready to share. And I think that's what you have to do. You have to protect that protection

of yourself of that period of time where you're mourning or you're going through something. That's sacred. You do that for you. And then when you feel right about it, you share that. I think that's where you find that balance or where I feel like we found that balance. Yeah. And to add on to that, I also don't think that we, really were given like a cut that made us look like this perfect couple. True. You know, like I think you clearly saw that we have flaws. You saw Bliss and I argue on the show.

They cut out a lot of arguing, actually. They're like, we don't want you to seem as mean as you can be. But you see us, you see us argue. You see us have conflict. And that's all part of being in a natural relationship. And I think it is an interesting dynamic. right? Because you don't necessarily share all of your conflicts.

And I think people get this perception that they're, the couples that they're comparing themselves to don't have conflicts. And like, that is a healthy marriage. If you're not having some conflicts, then one party is not communicating. Yeah. And then that, I really think is like a relationship is more likely to fall apart if there are no conflicts than if there are healthy conflicts that are regularly happening.

But sharing that on social media, obviously we're not out there like today and I, Bliss and I debated about how close I need to be to our daughter when she's running around. Is that a conflict you guys had? Just the other day. How much of a helicopter parrot should we be? Yeah, I'm so intense about it. Like we were at the, we were in Vegas at the, this convention for children brands and stuff.

And she was just running and there's people with suitcases and big things. And like, I'm like, you need to be within arms reach, you know, like, you need like, swoop her up out of the way of like this cart running her over or like this, you know, like I definitely think I'm probably made him a worse helicopter parent. Like he was naturally helicoptery and I'm like. Yeah. But this is our first, right? So we'll see.

He's not just good. Just really. Oh, yeah. You guys are going to get so much more relaxed. Like, we were just at the airport with both our boys after Disneyland, and they had a full-on lightsaber battle at the airport. They were within arms reach during a lightsaber ride. They were.

That was dangerous for us. I did bring them. I brought them to a section where I was like, okay. They're not going to hit anybody. They were, like, off the main path where people were, like, trying to walk and get to their gate. But, yeah, so people could, like, at least see when they're, if they were trying to trying to like walk you know near that area they knew okay there's a two and three year old having a very intense Jedi warrior battles.

Someone said I was like don't worry I was like their dad is right there they're there like I just felt like I was like this is a little crazy. Yeah yeah no headshots though we've had no head shots the other person has to have a weapon you establish rules there you go both people have to have weapons yeah yeah there's just you establish rules you never thought you'd make yeah yeah no that'll be so fun that dynamic is really sweet. Me and my brother, I'm older and then I have a younger brother and he'll already have another mom. Like, I just feel like with a, like, they just tap that natural instinct. I don't know. I'm like, you're just little, my, it's her husband. How many years are you guys apart? Two. Oh, yeah,

that'll be there. Yeah, I'm like, he's a baby. He's a little infant that I must take care of. She's very nurturing. What do you wish your parents would have done differently with the two of you? Or something they did well. I was going to ask, yeah, like, are you guys done it too then? I don't, you know, it's weird. I feel like this weird pressure to like, when I got pregnant with him, I was like, okay, am I going to have a third of me? I've like, it's been like this daily question. It's dangerous for me if I have a third in a way because twins run in my family.

I'm a twin. You could be getting four. His cousin just found out she's having triplets. She has a one-year-old, so she's going to have four under two. Bless her. I know. It's honestly, I'm shook. Blesser.

I'm scared, but also, yay. But also, oh my God, I'm scared. And I'm not, it's not even happening to me. So we have to like be prepared for multiple, especially because I'll be older. Like I'm 36. We had triplets. I'm like the, like, does anyone want one? Triples is not even on my radar of like consideration.

So that would be a real shock. So because they run so hard on both sides of our family, twins, multiples, like it's something like, okay, like if we want a third, like we might accidentally have like four. I do think growing up in a family with one girl and one boy, the dynamic is. really great. It's very even. It makes a lot of sense and I feel like you can be really, really close. And so like our family is like extremely tight knit and, um, like my parents, it was really like me and my mom paired up and my brother and my dad paired up. Like I always give the example. Like sometimes we would, me and my mom go out to dinner ourselves and they would go

to a different restaurant like Buffalo Wowing's Panera. Like that would happen often. And so like, we really are like, I'm like my mom's buddy. My dad's buddy. That insane. like to answer your question, I do think that like maybe some more like mother daughter or mom, dad, father, like that is where you have to be a little bit more intentional because I do feel like you do split off in that way a little bit and that type of family. But I do think like we were like researching like just for fun. Obviously like there's so many other factors that influence like family satisfaction happiness. Yeah. But like there's a really high correlation of like one girl, one boy families being like one of the highest like oh really wasn't that true we look this up together

i what i can't remember it was probably something i looked up with like chatch bt or you did and it's like i honestly feel like there's a lot more things that have a higher no what i found i was like i was like babe we got to cap it at four because i was like the more kids you keep having after four it's just like less time for your spouse less time for your spouse yeah yeah which i mean honestly every kid you have is going to be uh another person you're adding to the picture, so you're not going to have as much intentional time of just the two of you. But apparently though, the more kids you have, the more purpose you have in your life, but maybe not as much happiness.

The longer you live, right? I think the more kids you have. Oh, that's true too. Yes, yes. And grandparents being around grandchildren makes them live a lot longer too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, all that to say, I think that even if like this is the end,

like one girl and boy, I think that's a, I love the way my family was set up. That's so sweet. I kind of feel like sad. Like is this the last time I'm pregnant? You know, like there's that weird thing where it's like, but it's also, I don't know. We'll see what I'm having to have that pressure. Yeah, I'll decide.

I'll see how it is with him and, you know, we'll go from there, I guess. Okay, we do have some rapid-fired questions. Rapid Fire questions are audience submitted for you guys. So I think this will be kind of fun. That's not great at Rapid Fire. No, you're not. We'll try. Because he does long answers.

Elaborate, long-winded answers. I was just kidding. Okay, first question. This is from a girl named Chelsea Hayden. She said, where did you come up with your daughter's name? Zach loves alliterations. His last name is Guaitowski, or our last name is Guytowski. And he loved the name, Goliath, and we're like, oh gosh, I'm not going to do Goliath. That's just before we even started having kids, I'm like, Goliath is not on the table for me. Like, I'm sorry, I love you. No. And so we talked about different G names and someone had told him like, oh, well, let him. about the name Galileo, like when he was randomly talking about kid names. And he was like,

I really like that. And then he told me the name. And I was like, honestly, like, I love that for a boy or a girl. Like, we love what Galileo stands for, you know, like kind of going against the grain of what, you know, what he believed scientifically to be true or observed and like what people were telling him to believe and getting in standing up for the right thing or standing up for honesty. Refresh my memory. Was this him like fighting against the Catholic church? Yeah. About the sun. The sun. The sun being the center of the universe. They're like, no, the earth is. And he went to jail for it and stuff.

That's crazy. Yeah, crazy, right? That's cool. And it's also, like, Galilee, which is his last name is, like, the birthplace of Jesus. Like, spiritually, it just kind of lined up with us. And I'm like, honestly, like, I kind of love when, like, a little girl has, like, a boy name. I just think it's so cute or an androgynous name or whatever. So we decided on Galileo before we even got pregnant.

We did. We did. We had the name picked out before we know. knew before she even existed. We stuck with it. And I don't want all the kids to be G's, I don't think, but our first could be an alliteration. He could get that. We actually filmed a little video for her before, like the day we decided, because she was not unplanned. None of our babies have been unplanned. They were all planned. It was, it was like, we got a video and we recorded it for her

saying, like, hey, today is the day that we decided to bring you to existence. It's gross. Like, oh, cool. Great. I know what you do. We just did it and happy birthday. I'm going to give it to her on her 18th birthday. That's dope though. I have a similar video that I need to show our kids one day. It's like Abby and I like we're skating at a roller skating alley like place.

It's like a roller ring. Oh yeah. It's before we got married. And it's like, babe, what do you have to say to our future kids? And she's like, hi kids. Go to bed. Like whatever. That's kind of fun.

I think that's cool. We need to do that more. That's cool. We made a video to your daughter. We made a video like that on our wedding night. We did. Yeah, we wrote, like, we recorded a message to our future selves on our wedding night. That's so sweet, guys. Yeah.

But that's sweet. I like that. So baby, boy, it is named. Well, with him, it's a little bit different. We didn't, like, have, like, a name, like, oh, we're a second one's going to be this one. So it's kind of up in the air. And I don't know. I want to, like, see him, you know.

Right? Yeah, like the song. And with your daughter, too. And your daughter can say it and she knows. But then with your daughter, though, isn't there like the part in a Bohemian Rhapsody that's like, Galilei. Yeah. Everyone reference me.

Yeah. Thank you to Zoc Doc for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Rate your hand if you've been putting off a doctor's appointment. That is me. I need to get my ADHD medicine refilled. I've been putting that off and I shouldn't be because it's so, so easy with Zock Doc, you guys. If you haven't heard of Zock Doc, it's a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. We're talking about booking in-network appointments with more than 150,000

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what happened with Bliss and I, and, you know, I was kind of getting at this and then we got sidetracked. I think really needed to happen because it was when I broke up with Bliss in the pods, that I knew I had made a mistake. And I, like, in my head, I was like, you've got to run in there. You got to tell you, change your mind. You got to go tell the producers. You got to ask him to bring her back.

And I was like, you made your choice. You got to live with it. And I remember going to Mexico and being there. And, like, just thinking, like, even if it didn't work, even if it hadn't worked out, she was always the person that you should have failed with. And she gave me this court's heart that I still have today that I keep with me. And every time I look at it, it just made me feel a little bit better, even though I was in this really, really dark place.

Things were really bad in Mexico. It was like a lot of stuff you didn't see. And I was really sad that I'd gone through all of this, you know, for not to work out to end up with being kind of played a little bit. I was just like, all right, you know. She gave me this book and we talked about this, Red Rising. And I was reading it the whole time that I was in Mexico. And every time I would read a chapter,

I would just think about her and how much we had in common. So it's like a yes or no, maybe. Well, no. It's just, I think it's complicated. For me, I would say no. I don't. I think everything had to happen as it was like in order for us to like get where we are now. Yeah.

And so when I met her in person, and I just felt that connection immediately, like from the second she walked in the door, I was like, uh-oh, I think that might be my wife. Yeah. And it was all of that that brought me to that point of being able to just know when we got to the altar that there were no questions because I'd already felt all that pain and all that, all of that desire before we had even met. And then when the chemistry was there, it just clicked. And I don't know if I could have known with so much certainty if I hadn't said no initially.

What was the timeline from getting back together to getting married? We have the shortest engagement in love is blind history. It's two weeks. Two weeks? I think it was like, it was like 15 days. No way. From getting engaged too. I proposed to her in three days.

So like we met at the restaurant Then it was like three days Three or four days, four days later Four days later you proposed to me I think we met on a Tuesday and I proposed on a Friday Yeah actually How would you feel if you're You're if Galileo one day

Meet somebody and is married to them within 15 days Or 16 days whatever it was It puts us in an awkward situation Well it does in a way But also like The process in which we went through Like you're literally doing nothing But talking for hours

on end. You're not engaging in any activities. You're just like sitting talking. The bonding, the level of connection, the things you uncover that happens during that time is so different. Like it's basically going on like 30 dates, right? Like in the time period because that's all you're doing is talking sometimes for five or six hours at a time. So I would ask her like, did you go, did you guys like go through the love is mind process? Also like I think our goal with parenting is like obviously unless it's something dangerous or like unhealthy. Like we want to like unconditionally support her. Yeah.

And so we might be like apprehensive and we'd obviously like need to meet the person, but like we're going to support our daughter no matter what. I mean, I think the goal is, you know, we've got at least 16 more years. Got some time. And the goal is to raise her to be a wise woman who makes decisions with both her mind and her heart. And I would support my daughter if she actually came to me and said, I believe this is the person that I want to spend the rest of my life with.

I would trust her. And this whole timeline from starting the show, you have the 10 days of dating everybody and then getting to each other, and then you get engaged, go on a honeymoon, coffee engagement, then meet up, then get engaged, then get married, this entire timeline. Did that happen within, like, was it, was it a month? Two months? I think it was two months.

Oh, no, like the whole process. The entire process from start to finish. So March is when we went into the pods and our anniversary just happened on May 9th. So it was, yeah, like little less than two months. So it was two weeks in the pods, four or five days in Mexico. Okay. And then from when Bliss and I met, it was three days to the engagement and then two weeks. Holy cow.

It was really quick. That's really fast. That's more like a month, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Especially because we were a part for that. Yeah. Or a half or whatever.

And I remember from the show your dad was pretty apprehensive about not just the process, but specifically I feel like it was geared towards you. What's your relationship with your father and like now? We're good. Yeah. Yeah. We went fishing. No way. You got to do fishing.

I didn't catch anything. He got really sunburn. I caught a sunburn. I caught a sunburn. Did you catch anything? Yeah, he caught a lot of fish. I remember he was like asking about fishing and stuff and I was like, I don't know if that's his interest. Yeah. I grew up in Alaska and my dad's a very outdoorsy person. If we were in the zombie apocalypse, she's catching all the fish. That's true. That's true. I got you, baby. I would consider moving to Alaska to raise your family there. You know, I would love to have like a cabin there. The summers are just so amazing. amazing there and I want to expose our children to that kind of side of life and a little bit of a slower

life and living off the land. And so I think our goal will be to have like a home there one day, probably not permanently year around. It's like so dark there during the winter. It just would not be fun in that way. But we definitely need to go on a family trip to Alaska. It's so gorgeous, you guys. It's like nothing. No mountains you've ever seen like here. I want to go so bad. It's so worth it. Northern lights. The Northern lights. Did you guys get to see the next? Northern Lights like this, was it two years ago? I didn't. I've never seen them.

Have you seen the Northern Lights? So when Galileo was born. When we announced her birth actually that night, the Northern Lights, and they're never where we live. In Seattle area, they never are there. They just randomly were there. It was crazy. I came and I woke up Bliss.

I was like, leave me alone. I'm trying to sleep. I've already seen them was my answer because I grew up, but I'm glad I got it. And I was like, no, baby, you have to come out here. This is unlike anything I've ever seen. The entire sky was lit up in all of these weird green purple colors. I mean, it felt like a movie. It was, yeah, they are something else.

Do you guys ski? I like to snowboard. Okay, so go for like a snowboarding trip in the winter and go to like an area, like more northern maybe. Somewhere in Canada maybe. Oh, yeah, you could go Canada. You could go somewhere in Alaska. There's so many places. you'll very likely see them.

Okay. Yeah. I need to do that. It's totally worth it. Next question is, what is one thing that was not aired that you wish was shown? Oh.

For me, I think it's like the depth of our connection. Like there's so much, like they've gotten kind of better about showing what happens in the pods. Like that's truly where all the interesting things happen. Um, I think our connection,

they did did their best, I think, to show it. But it was so much more like there's something else going on here like from the universe or God or like there's something else going on here that's like there's so many things that we have in common there's so many synchronicities between us there's so many intense like emotional moments that we have because it doesn't you know you barely see what happened with the owls oh well like the owl like a owl like a snowy owl or just owls in

general has kind of been like my like symbol with things like okay like this is like i'm a pretty spiritual person. Like, this is my sign from God or the universe or whatever that I'm like on the right track. Yeah. And I remember when I was like, I was thinking about breaking up with my ex and I was driving down the road and I saw like a huge dead barn owl in the road in front of me. Like super obvious. Like I was like, okay, like this is I need. I knew that I needed to. But it kind of helped me be like, okay, yeah, this is happening. And on the first day, because you obviously can't see the person. And I was like, oh, what are you wearing? And he was like, oh, I have like an owl, like, you said I was wearing like a suit or something in a tie.

And I had like, have like an owl, what is it, tie clip? And I was like, no, you don't. And he was like, why would I lie about that? Because like, for me, I was like, this is crazy. And I like, when I heard his voice for the first time when he said, my name is Zach, like, I just, like, knew he was my person. And then that on top of it, like, made me freak out even more. So I kind of wish they showed the more, like, magical moments that happened in the pods between us. to like really show the depth of our connection, like how much I loved him and why I kind of

even like gave him even the opportunity of coming back after what happened was because we had that such deep connection and so many magical things happened in the pods. Did they give you permission just to talk for as long as you want to talk? No. Oh. They'll cut you off mid-sentence. And boy, did they with him. He would be like in a long monologue and like, do that.

That happened a lot. Yeah. They don't. I think that's part of like what make, you know, like they want to cultivate. it an environment of like um wanting that person right so they'll like just cut you off they'll give you a warning like you have five minutes left or something and then it's like a lot of times he would be he would be the one in the middle of a sentence and it would just cut out you can leave though if you want like you don't want to have a day with that person anymore you can just leave and but yeah i i i agree

i think that some of our connections in the pods and what we connected on you don't get to see that and part of it is just it's tv and they have a very short amount of time and they have to be I think every couple says that that they wish they showed more of their. And we were lucky, like I said, to get as much of our relationship shown as it was. But yeah, the, I really felt like there were signs that were being given to me, that she was the person. And like I felt like that before I broke up with her. Like I felt like I was getting those signs. And that's why I kind of compared it to Jonah and the whale.

But aren't they giving you guys alcohol though? Like is any part of this, have anything to do? You weren't drinking? I'm not a big drinker. Like, I'll drink. I'm a lightweight, just, like, genetically, I think. So, like, I just, I wanted to also be in, like, a clear state, you know? And, like, it was there if you wanted it, but every, like, water was in my golden goblet or, like, a bubbly water or something sparkling water.

I did drink at the Bachelor party, though. Oh, really? And I drink a lot in Mexico. In Mexico. Oh, God. That, yeah. Feeling the weight and the stress. Oh, my God.

That is horrible. Goodness. Stress we do, sir. Okay. Another user submitted a question from Mumad 17. I love everybody's amazing. Says, would you recommend love is blind to other people? So I'm assuming like a friend is like being recruited or whatever scouted.

They've received a random voicemail. And like, do you recommend the experience? Honestly, yeah. I think that if you are actually looking for love, I think it's a really beautiful opportunity to fall in love with someone with for the right reasons right like obviously physical attraction is important and that's an important part of what makes a relationship work but when do you ever get to say that you get to like actually just like like meet someone and learn someone for who they are on the inside that's such a cool opportunity and if you're going to take it seriously we

talked about a lot about vulnerability like you've got to be vulnerable you've got to really go into this taking it seriously and i absolutely would yeah i would say if you are looking to actually get married. Yeah. I would highly recommend it. If you're not, if you're thinking like, oh, this is going to make my life better, it's probably not. Probably not.

It's probably not, right? It's going to make your daily life harder, actually. The only way it is going to make your life better, well, I mean, I think you'll grow. If you're serious about it, you will grow. You will grow as a person. Like genuinely, if Bliss and I hadn't worked out, I think I would have been a much better person as a result, but everything else that comes along with it, like the attention, like the ridicule that people get, I, you know, I don't.

Unless you're going to take it seriously. Yeah. Do not, do not do it unless you're seriously trying to get married. And I think there have been people who have gone on. For clout. Yeah, as the seasons have developed. And I don't even know if I'd use that word. I'd just say that they're, that they're doing it because of the allure of being on television

or of, you know, doing that. And it doesn't go well. It doesn't go well. You know, it just, it doesn't. And I, I,

I really think if love is blind wasn't televised, like, if it was just like a dating service, I think it would be very successful. Yeah. Oh, you do?

I do. Maybe that should be, maybe somebody should start that as like a company or something. Yeah, seriously. The creator could. I really, I,

because I, I think the systems there and everything that they have is founded in solid scientific research. They give you questions to ask each day. Yeah. That help delve deep into like about, finances and like various things that help you uncover like meaningful things that you can connect on

and see if you're aligned so that's so cool the problem the problem that you really encounter with it is now you don't know if the person on the other side is being honest yeah right or if they're coming in with other motives and because of that like i've seen so many seasons you guys where but for someone trying to play games, trying to win, a couple didn't get together that would have likely, or but for it being televised. Like, I don't want, I'm not going to go into names. Yeah, I won't go into names. But there are couples that are together now that didn't match because they weren't

ready to get vulnerable on television about certain things, and so they didn't get together. But I'm telling you, every season, there's at least one. one couple that ends up together later, but for the television portion of it. So, yeah, I think it would be, it's a huge opportunity. I remember in junior high, you could pay at Valentine's Day like $3 to have the matchmaker quiz. Oh, yeah. I bet they'd do really great in junior highs too.

They'd be like, they'd be like, my love match. Oh, my gosh. Did you guys do that? That's so cute. Never did that. This is reminding you. I was like, why do I feel like I've taken some love quiz before? Yeah, that's so cute.

Yeah. But obviously way more science going into that. This one says if you met, it's by K. Hubers-06. If you met in the real world, do you think you would have gotten together? Yeah. I think it would have taken us a lot longer to get where we are, obviously, because it's like a forced, like, deep connection so quick. But yeah, I do. We talk about this.

Not in our, not in our 20s, actually. Yeah, we met in the time where we were probably meant to get to be, we debate about this, about I think just knowing my personality and the type of women that I normally gravitated towards, I think I really would have gravitated towards her. I don't know if she would have gravitated towards me. There's certain, obviously, your foundational qualities, but I think I was a lot like less tolerant about certain things and a lot more easily annoyed. I feel like I would have just been like you're annoying or something. I don't know. That was basically my dating environment. Which may have worked.

I just think I was in such a different mental space in my 20s that I don't know if it would have worked. But he's like, we would have 10 kids if we met in our 20s. I'm like 10. I don't think that. I don't think it would have 10 kids. Sweet. Yeah, it's sweet.

You believe in us no matter how old we were. Is named Abby Elizabeth Howard? What? I'm just so curious. What is something. about the process of love is blind because so many people know Love is Blind as a show now and there's a lot

of, I mean it has created so much buzz. Like what is something about the process as people that have gone through it seen the whole thing through that people wouldn't guess based off watching the show like as a viewer? I'm going to really think about that. Okay, okay. For me I think it's like, and we kind of touched on this a little bit

but just like how much time you really are spending talking to these other people because to you as a viewer it may seem like oh my gosh all of a sudden they're saying i love you like this is like their second or third date like what is going on here like this is totally crazy this makes absolute zero sense yeah but if you know the time that goes into it like literally like i don't know at the end of it maybe it's like 80 hours plus of straight just talking um it really adds to like okay i actually can get like how these people would fall in love and honestly like you there's no way that like all of you could be shown

on through the show just the amount of time they have like every side of you and these people are human and I think it's so easy to like ostracize someone or villainize someone or like put so much hate on someone when you don't have the full picture of who they are and I think that's just in general for reality TV but okay so there's there's two things and this is kind of playing off of what Bliss was saying I think that the first one this is something I realize and you've guys have probably experienced us too. Reality TV and celebrity culture in general is an act of catharsis for most people. They're either living a fantasy that they wish that they could experience through that person

or they're taking out their aggression that they can't express in their normal life on a fictional character. And it feels cathartic to do so. And that is something we've seen with all of reality TV, where with social media, it's been taken to a totally new level. But we see it, you know, every season of Love is Blind. You see it with The Bachelor. But it's becoming harder and harder to get people to go on these shows because of, it's become a ritual to shame the people who are being shown on this for how long? years for like a single moment that could be taken out of context and may have been their very

worst moment. And we were really cautious about this when the show came out, really tried to talk to people about forgiving the people that were on the show and not judging them and understanding that like for many of people, they were pushed to the brink and you saw their very worst. Yeah. But this person is better than that. And they can grow. row. And I remember from our season, that was one thing that you didn't, that got cut. So there was a line that like everybody has quoted me on. And it wasn't cut like from the show. It was live. We were the only live reunion. So we were able to say everything and there was no cut. No way. But the, the clip of it, everybody's forgotten the last part of what I said. So I confronted my ex on the, on the, on the, um, at the reunion. And I tried to keep it very short and sweet, which was just, and the best way I could do it without going to all the details and the messed up things that had happened was just saying, you came in on this show to get famous. And that has been blown up.

People have seen that. But it's been taken out of context because there's a butt behind that. And the but was, but I know that you can become a better person. and I know and anyone out there who wants to judge you, like, don't. And I'm not quoting myself verbatim here, but that was immediately after I said that, which is don't judge this person. You know, you saw them at their worst. They can grow and they can become more.

And for what, you know, that doesn't make a catchy clip. Everyone's like, yeah, you came in this to be famous. not yeah you came this to be famous but this was you at your worst and that you're a good person and that you can become better that was kind of left out kind of like a behind the scenes thing that I think is people think people think we like live in the pods or like we live in that lounge and we actually have our own rooms and they get to go back to in a hotel oh I would have thought that too yeah like you kind of make it seem like you kind of live there but thankfully you have your own and that really facilitates the connect I was going to say I really like

how you just said right there how even even your ex who you know you had you had you had that moment that was clips and everything I love how you said that you wanted better for her and you I feel like you're a good guy and I feel like you want to see good in the world and I also I think that like it's so it's so funny that the book that I've been reading Red Rising which you read while you were on your honeymoon and in which that's the book that Bliss recommended that you read Red Rising I love how like the main character in that book is also embodying that like you're view of the world of, okay, there's all these bad people that I want to see change and I want to see Be Better versions of themselves.

And that's like a constant theme throughout the Red Rising series of these, you know, these gold characters who are at the highest point of the cast system are, you know, technically like the bad guys or the villains in the book, but Darrow, the main characters wanting to see them change. Yeah. So I don't know. I thought that was kind of cool. Kind of just wanted a nerd out there for a little bit.

I feel like you're a little bit nerdy too. Oh, very nerdy. I would say a lot of it. We're both a lot of it. What are some nerdy things that people wouldn't expect about you guys? Are you guys playing dungeon and dragons like every night? I try to get her to do it. He wants me to so bad.

Do you guys ever want to play together? Let's play D&D. Let's do it. I've never played. I've never played it. I've never played it. I'm down. We'll do it online. Let's do it right now.

I'm okay. I've actually never gotten to play D&D, but I really want to. I'm big into storytelling. I love like the idea of it. Okay. That's cool. Yeah, we're pretty. nerdy. I think like the amount of like accents we do and like just quirky, funny like little

sayings we do with our daughter and like all the singing. Maybe people would think the singing is something we do after what they saw on the show. But we do a lot of singing. We're really into reading. We like create random weird stories with our daughter. We've talked about like creating and writing books together and different things like we're pretty yeah, we're pretty like normal nerds. I would say. I think the most of. appropriate question to end on comes from Kylin underscore Vug

Vug Is love truly blind So I'll start I'll start I guarantee why I'm not the first person to ask you that question No but it's such a good one I think it is

And I think the problem is the words that we use Okay in the English language we use Love to describe a very broad scope of emotions And I think other languages have more precise ways of defining love, right? So when we talk about the romantic love, we're talking about like eros. Have you familiar with the Greek? Yeah. So eros, agape, and filia. And there's another word for love too, but I don't go into it. But the love that we have for our friends, the romantic

love that we have for another person, and that unconditional love that you have for a child, right agape the unconditional love there's i believe and agape is probably the most important that's what really we're all seeking right um that romantic love matters too and i think when people think is love blind they're thinking is the the romantic feeling like obviously what drives uh a romantic connection there there's a physical component to it there's a visual component to it um but there's also a mental and a psychological component to it. And I don't think you can weigh one over the other. I think that they both matter, but love certainly can be blind. And I think the experience of going through love is blind really opened me up to love in ways that I didn't realize it would.

And I feel like, and there was one question, actually. I remember, and this is kind of, you know, Like there was a question when I was going through all of the, there's like a hundred questions they ask you before you go on the show and you answer each one. And it said, do you think love is blind? And I was kind of like my initial response was, I don't know, like I don't know if it is or isn't,

I don't think so. And the next question was, have you ever been in love? And I was like, yes. And it said, would you still love that person if they, they were in a different body.

And I was like, yeah. And that was where I was like, and then I kind of changed my answer. I was like, yeah, I think love can be blind. And I think about Bliss, like, if tomorrow I woke up and Bliss like changed bodies and she was in something happened to me like an accident like changed the way I love. Yeah, but like freaky Friday, you know? Like my love for you would change. Me and my Chad changed bodies.

Right. See, like I'm cool with like, you're, you're given a really really. good point. I feel like I disagree, but I love, I love, like, you said that so well, but then I feel like from my standpoint, it's like, I'm loving the change that Abby's experiencing as the person that I chose to love, you know? Like, I think it's fun to, like, get to love the version of her now a decade later that we, like, she's pregnant with our third boy and, like, we're so excited for that. But yeah, tell me, tell me, tell me more. Like, you're saying, even if she, like, looked completely different. Yeah. That would be. I think that our connection.

and what we've gone through together. I think what we've gone through, yeah. I mean, I think even just in the pods, like, I can genuinely, I think we both can genuinely say that we loved each other before we saw each other. Like, we loved who each person was. And, you know, not to say that, like,

it wouldn't have mattered at all physically what he looked. Like, maybe it would have. And maybe it was just luck that I liked the way he looked, right? But I think that you can. There was, it's kind of weird to say this, but there's actually like a sexual connection, like a physical chemistry that I had with him without seeing him. And so like I was attracted to him,

even though I couldn't physically see him. So it's weird. It's really weird to explain and maybe hard to understand, like if you haven't gone through that. But it's, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, like there's like literally like a physical reaction, like physical attraction happening,

without seeing him. That's cool. Yeah, it's weird. You see it the moment when we meet for the first time. Like after everything that's happened, we just like, just clicked. I was trying to be really, like, mad. She was. But even with her trying to, like, I could read through that.

Like, I could see that that was. Yeah. Chemistry that was there. And the pods just was there as well physically, like in person. It's really weird. Now you're making me wish I could have experienced. this with Abby because our version our version of this was just like in high school staying up till five a like we would fall asleep together on the phone and talk all night long do you think love is

blind Abby I got don't ask don't put me on a spot like this his his argument was very compelling that was really good honestly you're making me like he's a lawyer he's so good I can't argue with him I can't ready to debate you and then like as I was talking I'm like gosh I don't know. I mean, I think that it's interesting hearing, like, even both of you, you're saying it, like, it was like the experiences that you had together. But it's so crazy because you guys had such a short amount of experiences before you had felt, like, love. So I don't know.

I think ultimately I believe that love is a choice. And so, therefore, it can be blind. Yeah. Yeah. I believe in the choice part, too. Yeah. I think the commitment is huge. and like that's such a critical part of love is like committing to another person getting rid of

the like I think one thing that really holds back people from finding their person is this commoditization of dating treating dating like it's a purchase treating you know treating it like like people have these lists like they're buying a car right yeah and they're really not focused on expecting perfection when they're not no one is perfect like you're not perfect why would you expect other people to be perfect? Like the questions they're asking you, it sounds like on that survey are very different than the questions dating apps are asking

where they're like, what is your height reference? What is your income reference? Like things like that. Whereas like that was very different and it feels like, you know, as a franchise, like what they're doing is very intentional

and science and data backed. It is. Yeah. Something I want to share before I forget, the creator, I don't know how we're doing on time, but I want to share this. The creator of the show,

he's clearly very brilliant and he's created a lot of various dating shows but his idea behind love is blind is that when you're in bed at night and the lights are off and you're just talking that's kind of where that came from that whole idea of like connecting this like when you're laying in bed at night with the lights off like that's that where a lot of like deep connection can happen and that's where the foundation of this is like you know when we're 90 years old you know you know you know, wrinkly maybe or whatever, and we're laying in bed together. The lights are off. We're not physically seeing each other, but like we're still each other.

We're still connecting with who each person is. Your guards are down. Yeah. It's easier to be vulnerable. So that, hey, I'm convinced. I'm convinced too. Zach, Bliss, thank you so much for coming on our show. Thank you for sharing your story.

And again, congratulations on 802. I've heard of a great, great redemptive. birth and postpartum experience. Thank you. I really do. You guys too. It's little boys are so cute. I can't wait.

Oh, it's the best. And where's the best place? And they really love their moms like a lot. So where are you guys most active? Where's the best place for people to connect with you guys? Instagram probably is our most active place. Yeah.

We had a podcast that we were doing things on for a while, which was Blind Love. Yeah, it was actually called Blind Love. Let's go. in our podcast. But we might bring it back. We might. We'll see. We've talked about it.

It's just the time that goes into it, you know, and being parents. I need a nanny. Anyway, but thanks so much for having us. Of course. Thank you. You guys are so cool and we're really happy for your next little bundle. Oh, thank you.