The Vergecast - Asus’ ROG flow Z13 / Samsung’s Freestyle Projector / Apple's iPhone subscription service plan

Episode Date: March 25, 2022

The Verge's Nilay Patel, Alex Cranz, and Dan Seifert discuss the tech headlines from this site this week — including Google's deal with Spotify over app fees, Nothing's first smartphone, and the struggle with TV projectors. Google will test letting Android developers use their own billing systems, starting with Spotify Nothing’s first smartphone is aimed at Apple, not OnePlus OnePlus 10 Pro gets its global launch on March 31st Dell’s XPS 15 and XPS 17 get 12th Gen chips  Intel looks on track to fix its core problems Asus’ ROG flow Z13 is a Surface Pro that’s got game Apple has resolved the outage affecting iMessage, Apple Music, the App Store, and other services Apple’s Studio Display has 64GB of storage in addition to its iPhone 11-caliber processor The Mac Studio’s removable SSD is reportedly blocked by Apple on a software level Apple service centers can reportedly replace the Studio Display’s ‘built-in’ stands How Microsoft built its smart Surface camera iFixit teardown offers a detailed look inside the Mac Studio and Studio Display Apple will reportedly sell the iPhone as a subscription service Google won’t give old Pixels the best 5G, even though it admits it could Eero’s new Wi-Fi 6E mesh router supports over gigabit speeds and costs under $500 Matter’s delays mean fewer new smart home products today Google tidies up its smart home app Apple TV app on Android TV no longer allows rentals, purchases, or subscriptions YouTube is taking on over-the-air TV with nearly 4,000 free episodes of TV  Sonos might make your next TV streaming OS Yes, Netflix just got even more expensive HBO Max adds a shuffle button to help you find something to watch  Google won’t let you buy movies and TV shows from the Play app starting in May Samsung’s Freestyle Projector doesn’t live up to it’s $900 price Spider-Man: No Way Home’s VFX wizards couldn’t see the Doc Ock memes coming How SiriusXM bought and bungled a beloved podcast network Inside the fight to save video game history  How Robinhood’s Aparna Chennapragada is building the future of investing Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week on the Vergecast, Alex Cranes and Dan Sefert joined the show. We talk about Google letting Spotify use its own billing system, the new nothing smartphone, a bunch of follow-ups to our Apple reviews, and a little bit of a TV lightning round. That's coming up on the Vergecast now. Support for the show comes from Retool. Too many companies run critical operations on duct-taped spreadsheets, Slack workflows, and whatever else they could cobble together. Not because they want to, but because building internal tools means weeks of waiting on someone

else's backlog. That's where Retool comes in. Build custom internal tools just by describing what you need. Prompt something like, build me a revenue dashboard on our Salesforce data. And Retool actually builds it on your company's data in your cloud with enterprise security built in. Go to Retool.com slash Vergecast. We all need to retool how we build software. What's up y'all? I'm Skyler Diggins, seven-time WMBA All-Star, Olympic gold medalist, Mom. And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter for nearly 20 years covering the biggest names and stories in sports and mom. And this is Am Mom, a community for athletes, game changers, and moms of all kinds. Dropping May 14th. Tap in with us. Hello and welcome to the Verchast, the flagship podcast,

TVs on the ceiling. The thing I didn't know about, and now everyone seems to be talking about all the time for some reason. It's good for your teeth. It just came out of nowhere. Suddenly, everyone has a TV on the ceiling story. Get your teeth cleaned, watch the TV on the ceiling. It's great. It sounds like a 2010s rap, like rap rock band to me. Hi, we're TV on the ceiling. Okay.

I'm your friend, Eli. Alex Cranz is here. I enjoy a TV on the ceiling. Literally, again, the concept was nowhere. And now it's just there. We brought the word vaporware back, and now suddenly this is our next cultural trend that we're going to... Like, everybody's going to be sleeping in bed and be like, why would the TV in front of the bed when I can put it on the ceiling.

Dan Sefer to see her. I've got a motorized bed that lifts me up so I don't need a TV on the ceiling. Wow. That's bold. It's like a hospital bed. Our ceiling is very high. So we would actually need to like create some sort of like monitor arm. You would have to like fold out of the wall and fold over us.

You know what? We're very swiftly driving towards the scorpion chair. Yeah. We finally found a use case for absurd motorized gamer chairs. And it's sleeping. It's going to be great. As you may have noticed already, it was not a huge week of news here at the verge.com. A lot happened.

And there's stuff to talk about. Google and Spotify have some backroom deal we should talk about. The nothing smartphone, the marketing hype train continues. There's watching laptops. There's Apple follow-ups from their reviews. There's a matter delay for the hardcore smart home nerds, of which on the show. You are Legion. There's stuff to talk about. I'm just saying it's not like an action-packed. There was no giant event. There's no big event. The products are coming out. But we should start.

Let's start. I think the big news of the week that we should just talk about right away, for two years now, three years, the app developer versus smart phone platform fees fight has been in full swing. We've had lawsuits. In the EU, they're about to pass the Digital Markets Act, which will in some way regulate how various platforms self-preference themselves and set prices. Actually, the executive director of the EU competition commission, Marguerite Vestager, was actually just on Decoder with Adi talking about this stuff. I mean, it's nuts. Like, this is the fight in the industry.

Unless you're cool. This is where all the money is. You might think the money is in Web 3, but that's pretend money. The actual dollars and cents are flowing through your phones. And the fight is about who gets paid and what the cuts are. So probably everybody knows this. But if you're listening to this by now, right, the standard rate is 30%. So if you've got an app on either Apple or Android and you've got a button that sells

something to someone, 30% of that goes to the platforms. There are many cases in which that rate is lower, mostly to 15%. If you've been there a while, you're selling a recurring subscription. The platforms have various rules. But in any like broad sense, it's still. 30% for most things. There have been lots of attempts to change this. Like I said, lawsuits, regulations.

There is this thing called the Coalition for App Fairness, which is like Match Group and Spotify and Epic. But next to that, just like out of the blue yesterday, Google and Spotify are like, yeah, we made a deal. So Google announced it's going to start figuring out ways to let various developers use their own payment systems inside of apps, starting with Spotify. So when you go to sign up or pay for Spotify, you can either do it. it with the Google Play Store button, or you can do it with Spotify's billing system.

Now, I think what everybody assumes is that using Spotify's billing system will be cheaper because I want to have to pay that 30% to Google. Do people assume that? I assumed it would be the same price in Spotify would just be like, free 30% for me, Spotify. Unclear. Yeah. Right? Like, that would just imply that Spotify just raises its rates and takes a higher cut.

Like, then signing up on the web would be less expensive, signing up in the app. One button would send Google some money and one button would send Spotify some extra money. Right. It's unclear how any of this will work. Yeah. And so after just, you know, a day of light reporting, not, you can read the blog posts. The blog posts are pretty clear. These two companies made a deal with each other. Google says over time it will make deals with other developers.

It's figuring out how it will work. Then if you just like read the trade. in our industry, there's lots of background chatter, unnamed spokespeople are off doing their unnamed spokespeople thing, saying we've already made the deal, the terms are fair to Spotify, Google is still going to get paid. Oh. So when you pay the 30% that both Apple and Google, their justification is, well, we do your payment processing, we got to run the store, we got to invest in the engineers who build the platform. Like, you can't just have an app on a computer. You can't just have an app on a computer for free? What is this? Communism? No one's ever heard of such a thing.

You got to pay us every time you do a transaction so we can support our operating system. No other model in computing has ever existed or shall exist again. Never. He typed furiously on his Windows PC, right? Don't think about it. So that's their argument is they got to get some money because that's how they fund giving the software for free. You can feel morally outraged about that or not. So it sounds like what they're doing is they're saying, okay, you can do the payment processing and we'll lower our cut since we're no longer handling your payment processing, but we still want something to justify these other expenses. Yeah.

And so Spotify was like, cool, good enough for us. Neither side will say what the new cut is. So we're guessing it's not 30. It would be stupid if it was 15, like the worst negotiation in history. Right? Because 15 is like available in various ways from. various. I feel like there's probably like levels to it. I feel like they probably like got really into it. And so like if a person has a certain number of songs like already loaded into Spotify,

they're going to like charge more because they'll be like, well, that's a super user. You're super users. We get a bigger cut. But they're already paying Spotify. Yeah. But Google's got to look, Google is like, it will go into poverty if it doesn't get its cut. Like it has, it needs this. I think one of the reasons Google can do this. It's because Google's cash cow is like not Android. Yeah. It doesn't care, actually. Right?

It's like it's cash cow still search and people still search for things on their phones. And like, no one's mad about that. Aren't they still being sued by Epic? Yes. This is like actually one of the weirdest things, like Epic and Spotify were like really tightly aligned for a long time. Right. Then Spotify's head lawyer left Spotify and it's not a head lawyer for Disney.

And Spotify's like, we're cutting the sweetheart deal. Like, Harassio's been on Degrored. code or talking about this issue with me. Yeah, it's fascinating that Spotify just like broke away from the cafe group like you mentioned earlier, broke away from Epic. It was just like, oh, we can make our own deal. Then let's do that. It's also fascinating that Google chose to do this with Spotify as opposed to Netflix or any of the other services like that we talk about with these kinds of problems. Like, you know, I don't know. I can't remember on Android. Can you sign up for a new Netflix subscription on Android? Because you can't in the iOS app because Netflix doesn't want to give Apple the cut. So like,

if Netflix were to make this deal that was in terms to them, that means you could actually sign up for Netflix on your phone as opposed to going to the web app or whatever on your desktop computer. But Netflix is allowed to send you to the web. I think the other thing that's true about Netflix is that they're out of people. Right? Like every Netflix earnings report is like, well, we're out of people. Well, I guess we have to raise the rates again.

None more Netflix subscribers exist. Password sharing is out. We got to get those people. That's who's left. We might start doing ads. Like, this is what they said, their last earnings call, right? Yeah. They hinted it ads.

They're going to crack down in password sharing, and they're like, there's got to be some country left. We're going to find that country. We've got to pay Mike Myers per character. So sorry, your bill is now $25 a month. Adam Sandler, got to eat. Whereas Spotify's model is still, like, it's free, like with ads. And then the whole game of freemium Spotify is they want to convert you into a paid

subscriber, which changes the rate structure and all that. So they're still like desperately trying to convert people to pay. Whereas I think Netflix is like password sharing, I guess. Like we should cut that out. That's how we'll get more people. So I think they're just in different positions. Also, Netflix historically has had the leverage to at least put in that line. It's like go sign up on the web.

Whereas like Spotify, just like, I mean they've released website after website being like one time we tried to say we had a website and Tim Cook came to her house. and like pulled the fuses out of the fuse box and ran away screaming. What are the odds that Spotify is going to go take this agreement that it hammered out with Google over to Apple and be like, see, you can do it too. I mean, they're probably doing it as we speak. But I think the bigger thing is, what are the odds that Apple says, sure? Yes. What is the odds that it works? Right.

So my impression of this is one, the Digital Services Act in the EU is happening in the cutting edge of politics and the extraordinary. They're also distracted by a war. So like, how fast will this have any impact? But there is this huge package of regulations about how platforms can treat apps and services and things that don't self-preference themselves, how they set rates. So that's happening. There's the thing in South Korea where they're going to have to be allowed to use different payment processors.

There's a really weird one in the Netherlands where only dating apps get to use their own payment processors. And actually, a vestiger on Decoder is like, Apple has. chosen to not comply and they just pay five million euros a week in fines. That's just cheaper for them. It's just cheaper for them to pay the fine. Part of the Digital Services Act is raising those rates so they actually hurt. Yeah.

I mean, that makes sense. Like, there needs to be actual financial incentive to make them comply with this stuff. Yeah. Again, this thing has to pass and has to get enforced. But the whole point is, I mean, you should go listen to that episode. Addie did a great job with that interview. But that's happening. There's a thing in South Korea.

There's the weird thing in the Netherlands. Like, you just see that there's still the epic case, the Apple case is on appeal. The epic Google case is going to go up. There's another weird antitrust loss. The wheels have been turning for a long time. So if you're Spotify or Google, you can skip some little bit closer to the end. And Spotify gives a little less money to Google and Google gets to say they're the good kids. I think there's a reason for them to do this deal.

This is like the Microsoft play a little where Microsoft was like, yeah, we, we, we, believe with everybody else, 30% is bad, we would never do that. Get rid of app stores entirely. Definitely not because our suck. Except on the Xbox. Yeah. So they're just trying to like do that Microsoft play, but I'm still kind of questioning why they only chose Spotify and why they didn't roll out with more partners because instead it feels like they're giving Spotify a sweetheart deal, which actually makes their argument worse. So I do think part of this looks like a sweetheart deal for Spotify. Yeah.

And I think they could get it and they have been so vocal that Google cutting that deal with them means Spotify gets to run around saying Google is a better partner than Apple. That's great for Google. I think there's like a technical reason and then a like a Google financial reason. The technical reason is Google still gets a cut. Yeah. Right? Like that much has been reported, although neither company will be on the record saying it. 29%.

29% whatever that number is, right? But I mean, this is why The Verge has this like strict background policy. The companies want it to be known that Google is getting a cut. They do not want to put anyone's name next to that information. Okay. That's weird. Sure. So Google is getting some cut.

We don't know what it is. We don't know if it's been officially negotiated yet what that number is. But to deliver that cut, Spotify has to do some technical work. to account for someone signed up on Android using our billing system. We know what plan they've signed up for. Yeah. And then some money will flow to Google. And so before when it was there's a footnote in the Apple versus Epic decision that says Apple can still take a cut, maybe.

And, you know, the universe of Apple pundits said Apple's business was safe. And then my response was, I don't think Apple wants to bet its business on a footnote. like um because that seems bad uh a footnote and a decision that's being appealed but right it's like okay you can try to bypass apple but then apple will still want it's cut and how are you gonna are you just going to keep an excel spreadsheet yeah you're just going to write it down on paper like an old school you're going to get the green visor and the lamp and you're going to just text tim cook and iow um you just venmo him yeah so it just seems obvious that google has to build some hooks in android and spotify has to build some hooks into its app and you've got to just develop all

of that to account for some lesser cut if you push a different button. Yeah. And then send the money. I mean, that's got to be the reason why we're not seeing this right now today. And they're saying it's going to launch later this year, right? They got to build all the parts. That's the like reasonable explanation that assumes everyone's a good actor. You've got to like slowly build the thing.

Positiveity. I think the other explanation is like Google's cash cow is search. The revenue model for Android is search. Everyone knows people don't spend as much money on apps on Android as they do on the iPhone. and Google can accept a little less money from that because they still have search and make Apple look bad and Apple's entire business that is growing is services and if you can push the services number down for Apple,

you have struck a fatal blow. That feels more like what's really happening here. I mean, I think it's probably both. Yeah, that's true. But you can see why Google was like, actually, we should just do this. Like, it's costing like $10. Yeah.

Like it's no big. loss for them and they get to look good. Like, that's a win for them. It's a huge right. They get to go to regulators around the world and see, look, we are responsive to your concerns and the market. We're testing it out. Don't write your broad laws about all of us. Yeah.

Just add them, just point him at the spaceship. By the way, at the same time, all this is happening, Apple took the buttons out of its Apple TV app on Android TV? It's the best part. Because it doesn't want to pay Google the 30%. They had a, they had a sweetheart deal that expired. So

I had a Chromecast, although we've stopped using a Chromecast is just the crassiest thing. Dan, are you still using your Chromecast? I'm not. Yep. So we had a Chromecast with Google TV, which was a great product for like six months and then like all Google things. It just someone forgot about it. Sad trombone. Like they said they were going to roll out like dynamic frame rates.

So it would like drop to 24 when you're watching it. They just never did it. I don't know if it can do that. No, it cannot. They said it was going to. But it never will. But I mean like I don't know if the hardware. is capable of doing it.

Of running it 24 frames instead of 60? It's fewer. It's fewer frames. But anyway, so on Android TV, on that product, there is an Apple TV app. And it was actually one of the reasons I bought the Chromecast. Right. Because so much of our purchased movies and stuff were on Apple.

So now the app is there, whatever. I get access to the whole library. I don't have to worry about movies anywhere or anything like that. And then I can keep buying them in that. And they'll show up on that. But Apple and Google had negotiated, like a sweetheart rate that expired. And Google's like, time for the real rate.

And Apple responded to taking its buttons out. We just won't sell. Which is, like, can you imagine that meeting? Like, that's Eddie Q being like, yeah, okay, take the buttons out. We don't want to pay the money. Take the buttons out. No irony detected here. But put in a line saying where you can buy them.

Because we can do that because Google will let us do that, even though we wouldn't let Google do it on our platform. Did they all forget that movies anywhere exist? Like, there's a service. But it's only for some studios. I use it. It's great when it works. Yeah.

But like if you wanted to buy TV shows, it doesn't work for that. That's true. Who's buying TV shows? People buy seasons of the office all the time and whatnot. Dan buys TV shows. That's what we just learned here. I really don't. I mean, I subscribe to all the services instead, which maybe I should just buy the TV shows.

to be honest with you. Yeah. You should buy the TV shows. I did buy Cagney and Lacey a couple of months ago. It was on sale. And I was like, sure, I'll support the 1980s TV. Have you ever trolled the depths of HBO Max? I mean, like, all right, it's one in the morning.

I'm watching head of the class for some reason. This show didn't age well. But now I have access to it whenever I want. I have not done that. But now I know what I'm doing tonight. Oh, they just launched the randomized button. I'm like really hopeful that they didn't curate that. randomize button.

And it's just going to start dropping people in like old episodes like Aquitaine Hunger Force. I'm pretty sure it's curated. See, that's a mistake. You go into the show. Like you go into curb your enthusiasm and then click randomize and it'll give you a random curb episode. No, I'm telling you they got to go pure wild and be like the entire crazy catalog of HBO Max is available to you.

You could get gone with the wind or you could get Aquitian Hunger Force. I mean, HBO Max has in many ways the best. clock, right? Because it's like the most real movies. It needs to feel like a UHF TV channel from 1993. Like that's what it needs to feel like, just chaos. I never know what I'm going to get. What we keep describing here is a interesting product development from the HBO Max team. And it's not going to happen. Any development from the HTMLX team. They have to hire a developer. It's fine. All I'm saying is the buttons and links conversation continues to happen at massive velocity.

It's the thing that is going to upend the smartphone industry, whether it's by regulation, whether it's by pressure from the deals. Like Google gives enough companies these deals. They're going to start deprioritizing their iOS development. So just to be clear, this is going to upend the smartphone industry, not nothing. Did you like that segue? Okay. So we should talk about nothing.

Yeah, it was good. I was trying to tee it up. The worst named company in tech, nothing. Every headline we write about this company is deeply confusing to me. I know what's going on. I feel like we're negging it every time we write about it. So Carl Pei, who was, he did One Plus. He has a new company called Nothing.

Again, very badly named. They're on their hype campaign. Dan, walk us through it. So nothing, you might remember a year or two ago, released a set of wireless earbuds. That is the only thing that they've released so far. But now this year they are hyping up their forthcoming smart phone. They had a half hour long presentation this week to show off an Android app launcher

and also say how that is the future of their smartphone world is that. John Porter's got a really great piece on the site. He actually spoke to Carl to get a little bit deeper on what their plans are. And I'm a little skeptical about all of this. I think, you know, it's kind of funny. And there was multiple people who are saying that the presentation itself gave a lot of essential phone vibes, which is kind of funny because nothing bought the branding rights to essential phone. So like they bought the rights and they bought the vibes. But the presentation had all of this like kind of bravado and swagger about how smartphones are boring now and nothing's new. There's no innovation and we're going to fix it. But then they didn't announce a product. So later this year, I guess we'll see a phone.

One would assume is an Android phone and it's apparently running their Android launcher. It's very much an Android phone. There's a Google logo on this launcher. Yes, it is an Android phone, yes. The twist with the pitch this time is that they want to be a company that helps other companies design and develop products. And they also want to build an ecosystem that other companies would want to plug their products into to support things like, I don't know, easy headphone pairing and stuff like that. On the first point, I will say they've shipped one thing. And it also wasn't a great thing.

So, you know, if you are a company that is trying to launch a product and you're looking for some help there, not sure their track record really sells that pitch to you. And then the second point is they want to, like, build an Apple-like ecosystem, but they are not Apple. And there's no reason for any company that is like established at all to play along. So I'm very skeptical about a lot of these ideas in terms of like, will they happen? Or if they do happen, will they be in any sort of. of capacity of what we're being sold here.

My one counterpoint to the fact that, like, they want to build this ecosystem and nobody will sign on is Amazon had like next to no hardware business when it launched the Alexa, right? Like, they didn't really have much of hardware. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. They tried to launch a phone. Well, they tried to find out.

Actually, your comparison. No, but they were like, we're going to compete with Apple. We made a phone that has a 3D display. And that failed so spectacular. their next product was like, what if it's the most not a phone we can make? No display. It's a Pringle's can. And you have to keep it plugged into the wall.

But they still didn't have like, they were not successful at hardware. And they weren't successful at those like partnerships. They had the Kindle. Yeah, but like those partnerships, they didn't have those before. And the Alexa, I'm really glad I don't have one in my house right now. Like that changed it. They have a ton of partnerships. They have the most partners for the platform versus the other smartphone platforms.

So, like, it's technically possible. Amazon is also consistently one of the largest and richest companies in the world. So it literally has 10,000 engineers on Alexa. Like, it can literally throw orders of met. Like, it can throw multiple nothings at a problem until it's solved. Like, nothing is a startup. Like, they are a small company that has shipped one product, That was kind of mediocre and wasn't that great.

And now they've got these like ideas and ambitions. And if you remember the essential comparison, ignoring all the other, you know, stuff surrounding that. But their product pitch was that they were going to ship a smart home controller and an ecosystem of devices and things like that. And it never came to fruition. They fizzled out and collapsed even though they had $300 million of funding to do it. They fizzed out and collapse because Andy Rubin was a bad guy. And it was came out in full force that he was a.

bad guy. But they were also not selling products. Like, they were not, nobody was buying an essential phone. Will anyone buy a nothing phone? Will you buy nothing? I mean, it's an excellent troll. I will say that this launcher that they've announced, just the like handful of screenshots are basically like a wallpaper. It's beautiful. And a handful of widgets. Like maybe three widgets. Everything else is like a bunch of Google icons that are circles and

said as squircles. If you spend 10 minutes browsing the Play Store, you can probably recreate this launcher on your existing Android phone right now. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I love a hustler. Carl's a hustler. We've talked to them before. One Plus was a huge success, right? They captured a piece of people's imaginations. In a way, yeah, they were a success in marketing. They were not really a huge sales success in the markets that they tried to break into. Like, Google sells more pixel phones than One Plus sales phones in the U.S. Like, that kind of puts it into scale. Like, in the past few years, I think it was 2019 that stat came out.

That puts it into scale of like how many people are actually buying Oneplus. Well, One Plus is really great at. And what frankly, Carl Pay is really great at is driving a lot of interest and a lot of hype and a lot of press coverage about the company and the product. But that doesn't necessarily translate into a huge sales success or a market shifting product. And if you look at like where One Plus is and now, it is basically just morphed into APO, which is one of its sister brands from its parent company. Like, One Plus was in a different position than nothing in that it was like owned by this

giant Chinese conglomerate that could fund this idea for seven or eight years before they were like, you know what, this isn't working so hot. We've got these other phones. Let's just make them all look the same. That's what people want. So we're going to do that. But I think a lot of the one plus marketing, at least in this country, was the carriers were sort of interested in a hedge against Apple and Samsung duopoly. To an extent, yeah. Right, so T-Mobile would like stock One-plus phones.

Then they ran into the big red Verizon wall of certification, which took them years to figure out with the resources of Apo. Like, take those resources away and now try and get your phone certified on Verizon. Now that they can just be

on Dund Dish Network. Gen. Gen. Five sis. Yeah, they can Jenna five sis up on the O-Rands. But what if the nothing phone is like cool looking?

Like, what if it's actually interesting looking? I mean, the Essential phone was cool looking. Yeah, but no, it wasn't. It was like fine. Yeah, it was. In 2017, it was titanium and ceramic, and it was compact, and had tiny little bezzles around it, and it was slim, and it had the worst camera on Earth. And, like, what has changed that's putting nothing in a different position than where

essential was four years ago or five years ago? Because it could be a transparent back, and then I would get to see my battery. You could see your battery. And your wireless charging coil. Yes. I'd be like, yeah. I just want to know, like, does nothing have like a messaging app? Because if they can't get people off the blue bubbles, this phone is doomed.

They do not. I mean, they've got what nothing has is a lot of pedigree. They've got people from teenage engineering working with them. They've hired people from Dyson working with them. And they've, you know, hired some other like design focused brands, people from these brands that are supposedly going to, like, build these products that are like very designy. and having that aesthetic look that they're trying to sell. But ultimately, smartphones, especially Android smartphones, are a commodity. Headphones, wireless headphones are a commodity.

They are trying to differentiate these commodity markets with design, and it didn't really work that well with the first attempt. I think trying to do that with a smartphone is even harder, and I don't know. I'm just very skeptical about it. Yeah. Like I said, I love a hustler. I'm equally skeptical, especially because these screenshots are like, I feel like I could just get this wallpaper.

And like I could be 90% of the way to where this platform is. I feel like if you just use a heel brush right now, you could make this wallpaper. Well, he did say in the interview with John that he's very excited about their sounds. So. Yeah, the sound design of the phone is apparently very cool. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We should talk about a handful of laptop things before we take a break. Intel is like shipping computer chips. They're doing it. They're doing it.

Yeah, they're finally shipping it. I'm had a fantastic piece this week that was just like, hey, guys, they did it because they have. Like, they're shipping the products. And I think they've still got a long way to go. And I honestly don't think we're going to see Pat Galsinger's influence in the hardware side of things for another couple of years. But they did it.

They're doing better. They're not at Apple level. Well, so these, the two, the Dell, XPS 15 and the 17 have 12th gen chips in them. Right. We're just like proud of Intel for shipping the chips that go in the Dell products. I mean, well, so what we'll be proud of like is we just reviewed the XPS 15 recently. We reviewed the XPS 17 late last year.

Those had, I believe, 11th gen chips in them. And basically the takeaway from both of those reviews was these would be a lot better with AMD chips in them. So will the 12th gen version have that takeaway? That is like the open question because what we saw with the prior models is they're hot, the battery life wasn't great, the fans were loud, things like that. There are all the traditional PC laptop problems. The AMD has done a lot better for years.

Apple obviously is doing great with the M1 series. That Intel hasn't really matched. So we've seen 12-gen a few times before. We might have even reviewed a few laptops with 12-gen chips in them. Generally, the new generation of chips comes to gaming laptops first, which already have terrible battery life and loud fans and stuff like that. So when you see them in productivity laptops, they were, they pitch longer battery life and quieter noise and better quality of life,

then we can see whether they are competitive on that front. And we'll find out. I don't know. I've long felt like the XPS series could use some better options in Intel, but I think Dell and Intel are very close partners on that. Dell is disagreed for many years. Yeah, I think it would have been, if they'd gone with AMD this time around, that would have been a huge boost for AMD because Dell is very much like,

we're going to sit, we're going to weather this storm with Intel, because ultimately we think they're the winner in this race. I think Intel and Dell just also are like closely partnered on the XPS series. Like they design them together. So for them to stick AMD chips in it would probably violate some sort of contractual agreement and also be a giant slap in the face to their biggest partner. Oh, but it's Dell. They can just spin up another name. The Dell XPS AMD. Yeah.

Done. APS. APS. APS. Like Dell's been like, you know what's a word, Inspiron? Just hold on to that. You know what really lights them on fire at the high schools? Insperon.

I will say the two Intel things are really interesting. They're opening up their Foundry business. So you're going to make Qualcomm chips. And then this week, Nvidia said it would consider using Intel's Foundry Services, which is like wild. I'll believe it when I see it. But this is the thing, right, this is the game, right? the reason the other vendors have been ahead, especially Apple is, right, they use TSMC.

Yeah. TSMC invests heavily into effectively Moore's Law, right, and effectively making the process smaller, the process node smaller. Intel's like not had all the scale. So they can make Intel chips and Qualcomm chips and Nvidia chips. They can pour the money into their foundry business. This is the big unlock. They have to do it.

I think there's also this idea that like everybody wants to look like they're shying away from international foundries and from international makers and look like their USA homegrown Ford tough kind of processors. And so it's a media, Ford tough processors. Like a rock. That's heavy. Whatever. They're all big trucks in America.

Alex, you're from Texas. I feel like you should know the difference between these. I'm going to get revoked my license. I'm sorry, Texas. But, you know, I think that is. part of it, too, is that there are these bills going through Congress. Everybody's looking for funding. Everybody wants the chip funding.

And it looks really good to have all of the American chip makers say, hey, yeah, we'll consider this American foundry that's making a big splashy buzz right now. Yeah. We'll consider putting it there because then maybe you'll approve these bills and we'll all get a giant billion dollar package or whatever. And the state of Ohio will become something else. Sun bill? Yeah. No, so we'll see. I think it's like,

Hyamusice is great in that Gelsinger, the new CEO appears to have just like reoriented Intel. They're not doing a bunch of dumb stuff, step by step. There was a big puffy Fasco profile of Gelsinger this week. You should read it. He's very proud of himself in that interview. But it's like, it's interesting, right?

He was brought in to turn it around. He did the thing. He said, we're going to sell foundry services to other companies. He's arrived at a, place where they're going to build foundries and let other companies use them. And they're starting to ship competitive products, which is a big deal. Although I will say, right, until they ship something competitive with the M1 stuff, it's going to just like loom over them. Yeah, it's going to loom over them in the sense that like they're not going to be seen as the innovator, whereas like Apple will be

seen as the innovator. But like really Intel is competing with AMD at this point. in terms of who it needs to beat to stay, like, relevant in this markets. And so, like, AMD's done a lot of the same things as Apple in terms of, like, we've talked about this before in the show of, like, technologies that they developed and things like that to better their products. And it's really had a great few years. So Intel is coming in on almost its back foot to try and compete there. Yeah, and once it's, like, beat AMD, then it can be like, okay, where are we going to be

the innovator now. And like, what are we doing that is like completely different than other manufacturers or other companies that are making chips? And I don't think it has to be scared of Apple at any point, because they really don't compete. Like, Apple's making its chips on its computers that it sells. Apple ain't going to start buying Intel chips. That's like that that customer ship has sailed. And Intel's real business, like we talk, we focus a lot on the consumer side of Intel, which makes sense because that's what we do. But Intel's main business isn't servers. And Apple's not showing an interest in competing in that space right now. And so as long as they don't, like, Intel still kind of got the run of things.

And that's not going to change any time soon. So they've got plenty of, like, runway to continue to fix their screw-ups. And Gelsinger seems to have put them on the right path and made some really smart, immediate changes that have shown, like, that have just lifted the profile of the whole company. I will say that all of Apple services went down twice this week. So maybe they should be thinking about servers. Yeah, they should be like, we're going to make her on server shows. Apple services, by the way, hosted mostly an AWS and Azure. So when that stuff goes down, it's like, it's just interesting to think about that whole ecosystem.

Yeah. Like Apple services went down, but Azure didn't go down. So Apple just, like, screwed up. It was the dreaded configuration change. Apple services went down to the point where, like, Apple stores were selling iPhones using pen and paper, which was just very funny. It was a great photo. I feel like if I walked into an Apple store and saw I'm using pin and paper, I'd be like, you know what? I'm just going to go to Best Buy.

Here, don't you, don't the tablets have styluses guys? Come on. Yeah, let's go. Get with it. Let's talk about this Rogflow Z13 and let's take a break. Okay, so Cameron reviewed this as is the Rogflow Z13. It is a pretty fun product in that it is effectively a Surface Pro design jammed with like high-end gaming components. It's got a core I-9 processor, we're just talking about Intel there.

It's a 12th-gen core I-9, for that matter. It's got a discrete GPU in it, and you can play games on this thing that weighs two and a half pounds and has a detachable keyboard, and not like the games that you play on an iPad, but AAA titles, actual PC gaming stuff. And then it has this dock that you can connect to the side that adds a much more powerful GPU and a whole bunch of ports, so you can have a docking station with it, so that you can really have a docking station with it, so that you can really have essentially a product that is as competitive with big, beefy, heavy gaming laptops in a portable form factor, provided you are willing to leave a lot of that power at home when you are on the go. And spend so much money. And spend so much money.

Yes. So, like, the tablet itself is $1,900 as reviewed. And then if you want the graphics plug-in thing, the external graphics card is the technical name for it, you're looking at like $3,200 or something. like that total. So it is extremely expensive for this privilege of having gaming like this on the go, but it's pretty cool that it can be done considering this is, again, a 12mm thick device that weighs two and a half pounds and, you know, basically runs high-end games. I just, I hate that it's 2022 and we're still being like, oh, and if you really want game power, you can use a dock because every single dock is bad. Yeah, I mean like,

If you want powerful gaming without a dock, your computer will be four, four to half pounds and a little bit thicker. Like that is the tradeoff. And that's a real tradeoff you can make because for $1900, you can get a Zephyrus G15 that has, you know, latest AMD processor in it and a powerful Nvidia GPU and game all you want. It's not quite as portable as a 12-inch tablet. Yeah, you know what else is not portable? the giant GPU dock you need for like proper, you know, Alienware did this. I'm just telling people they should go look at a picture of this because the thing on a desk with a dock like looming in the background or the EGPU looming in the background is very funny.

And this connector is deeply hilarious. It's huge. It's a big connector. No, it looks like a ribbon connector from an Apple 2. Like that's the size or like a parallel port. It's like a scuzzy port or something. Yes. It doesn't have thumb screws.

Where are the thumb screws? That's what it needed. It needs thumbs screws. It does have the little pinchy latches. Yeah. You know what else had those? The alienware eGPU. You know what was terrible?

That. I'm just saying at $3,200 they couldn't do Thunderball. So the problem they can't do Thunderbolt, like there's a reason that they have this because we saw for a few years there, Thunderball external GPUs. But Thunderball just doesn't have the bandwidth. Like, the reason they developed this is built off of Thunderbolt. If you pull it out and look at the dock, there's a USB C port in there and then extra pins next to it that like enable the wider bandwidth. Alienware did the same thing.

And, like, at the time, you'd say, well, why are you doing this when Thunderbolt exists? And they say, well, no, because we're faster. We're just better. Thunderbolt can't do it quite as good as we can. And so Assu's making the exact same, like, Assume is just doing the exact same thing, Alienware did. And I'll be really surprised to see if it works better for Assus than it did for Alienware. Yeah, I will say that the difference between how Alienware approached, alienware approached it by saying, like, here's a gaming laptop.

And if you want to upgrade your gaming laptop in the future to a newer GPU, well, they didn't just do it for them because they did it for like their 13 inch. Like they did for their smaller ones too. Yeah, but it was still like a five pound gaming laptop with like, you know, this is like, if you want a portable computer on the go and then you come home and you want to do your serious gaming. You just plug it in. Now you've got your serious gaming rig. Which is like a concept we've seen a bunch of times before. Assousse itself

did it last year with a laptop form factor. They're just kind of using this form factor as a Surface Pro this year. So it's a tablet. Quote, tablet. But like it's always a compelling idea because it's always like this dream that we've been chasing for a long time of gaming on the go. I think what really

throws a wrench in all of this is the Steam deck because the Steam deck is $400 and like also performs really, really well and is more portable. It doesn't require an external GPU. When you say performs really, really well. It plays video games sometimes.

So Sean was on, yeah, Sean was on to talk about the Steam Deck. I will just let everyone know, like, every day we talk to Sean. And Sean's like, ah, the Steam Deck had another issue, but I still love it. And like the love in his voice, it's like he's raising a baby. Like, he's like, ah, the Steam Deck fell down the stairs today. Still learning how to walk. It's great. So I just don't think it throws a wrench into anything.

It is 80% functional. The steam deck as it is, sure. And also you can't even buy it because if you buy one now, you're waiting another year. But it is the same market, right? It's the same person that would be interested in this is also interested in a steam deck. And like which one would they go with if they were spending their money? A $3,200 system like this or a steam deck for $500 when you get the extra storage or whatever the cost is? I will say, as somebody who almost bought a surface,

earlier this year. And Monica actually talked me out of it because I really just wanted to sit on my couch and play like strategy games, which are not super GPU intensive. And I was like, yeah, that makes sense. And then I saw the Steam Deck. And I was like, that makes more sense. I'm going to do that. And this came out and I got a little bit of FOMO. And then I saw that EGPU. And I got so irrationally angry that people are still trying to make EGPUs work. I want them to, but they're always bad. It is absolutely a compromise in many, many ways. And you can see, see that compromise just right there on the spec sheet. The GPU that's in the tablet itself is a 30-50 Ti that runs at 40 watts. That is not a strong, super-powerful GPU because it cannot be in

that form factor. And the one that's in the enclosure is at 30-80 that runs at, I don't know, 135 watts or something like that. It's way more powerful. 150. 150 watts. So, you know, that's just like where they're at with this technology and where it will probably be for the next few years, at least. All right. Well, go watch this video. It's very fun. Go look at this connector. We've got to take a break. We'll be right back. Support for this show comes from Shopify. Starting something new isn't just hard. It can be really scary, too. So much work goes into this thing that you're not entirely sure will even work. But here's a better thought. What if it did

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That's upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upw-R-K.com. Upwork.com. We're back. We're like cruising our way to going over. I was like, nothing happened this week. And we spent 45 minutes talking about a phone that will not succeed and a laptop with an external GPU. That's the verge cast, everyone.

We give the people what they were. It's what it has been for a long time. It's not just some Apple notes. People are getting their Mac studios and studio displays. The tear downs are happening. Can I just address the power cord thing for like one second? Yes, please. Go.

It is really easy to pull the power cord out of the studio display. I don't know what's wrong with people. I can do it with one hand. Did you get like, was there all like an alarm? Do you know how I know the, you can remove the power cord from the studio display? When I got it delivered to my house and then I was, going to the city to shoot the video. So I need to put it back in the box.

And without thinking, I just, like, reached around the studio display and pulled down the power cord the way that you would with any other power cord. And it came right out. So I know that there's, like, all of this, like, ah, the power. I can do with one hand. I can do without even thinking about doing it. Yeah. That's it.

I'm just saying, I don't know what people are doing it out there. You should get those little grippy things, maybe, like, work on it. It's not that hard. What if everybody else's has been super glued in? Yeah. I don't know. It's just like the silliest controversy of all time. For what it's worth, Apple's spec sheet on it, it way buried in their like guide online to the studio display says the power cord is not removable.

It is removable because we removed it and put it back and then removed it again. We've removed it several times without even thinking of it. It's not like when Eli pulled it out. It was suddenly, oh, it's removable, but it's also now broken. Like we put it back and it worked. No, I have definitely removed things that are not meant to be removed in my life. This is not that situation. Okay.

So that, the studio Sway has been tearing down by I Fix It. It's an iPad in there. It's not 64 gigs of storage. It is an iPad short of a touchscreen, an active Wi-Fi chip, an active Bluetooth chip. But like, are those chips in there? I mean, it's a board from a phone. Well, that does not have a touchscreen controller. It does have a touchscreen controller.

Sure. But could we turn on Wi-Fi and Bluetooth? And then do what? You can airplane to it. Like, that is what's stopping it from being an airplay? Play destination. It doesn't have Wi-Fi or Bluetooth. Fair enough. But I just think this product is just baffling.

I've now watched every possible review of it. By the way, we should do the countdown. It has not been one week since Apple told me that the software update would come to fix this thing. They, not a word. Who knows if this webcam will ever be improved. I assume it will be

because Apple traditionally when they say such a thing, they do deliver unlike some of their competitors. There are people who are tweeting at me like when I was like we can never review based on the promise of software updates. Like random people started reminding me of promised software updates that never came. The most egregious, by the way, is ring said home kit would come to its doorbells three years ago. That's the most recent egregious one.

The other, the famous Apple one is FaceTime is still not open source. Yeah. Well, they got, there was like a patent lawsuit. Like I, whatever. That's true, by the way. There was a patent lawsuit with FaceTime. The Mac Studio has shipped to people. Someone opened it up.

there is a flurry of excitement because the SSDs are just like regular old SSDs and it looks like you can remove them. But this is the definition of like you're not supposed to remove this. This is the most apple of Apple things, right? Because there is storage in there. It exists. But the way the storage controllers are handling the data, you cannot just pop any SSD in there. It has to be the very specific exact size Apple one.

because the storage controller is not actually happening on the SSD. The connectors are not standard for starters. So, like, you can't buy these off the shelf. But even if, like, you know, there's been, we've covered a bunch of tear downs that ripped apart two Mac Studios and tried to swap the drives in between them and had trouble doing it because the way this was designed was not so that you could swap the drives, at least not at this stage, but so that Apple in manufacturing could be like, okay, this one's got a 512 and this one's got, you know, one terabyte. And they can just like plug them in as they need to for. for manufacturing purposes.

But the reason that you can't swap them is because all the drive itself is encoded by the on-chip security controller in the Mac Studio. So when you move it from one Mac Studio to another, it doesn't work. And maybe they'll open that up in the future, but really it is such a pain in the neck to get inside of a Mac Studio. You have to go through an unshielded power supply, which is always fun and dangerous, to even get to these drives. So really, it's very clearly not designed to be user replaceable.

I cannot wait to upgrade mine horribly in like six years. It's a modular, guys. That's how long it's going to happen. It's a modular computer in that it is one module that you should never, never think about. Don't do it. Don't do it. More studio display, the studio display stands are silly, right? Like you can only order the one.

You can only keep the one that you order with, but apparently the service centers can replace the stands, which means theoretically someone else could, who knows. I'm so excited. The amount of attention the studio is receiving is so out of proportion to the number of people who will ever buy a studio. I think it's because it's such a baffling, like, product. Like, it feels like it should have been such a, like, slam dunk for Apple. And everything about it is like, oh, no, you did the, you did the opposite of what anybody would want from this product.

You put a whole iPad in there, but you didn't give it touchscreen. Like, what do you do? I mean, it does seem like a lot of people want it. If you go to buy one now, there's, like, an. eight to 10 weeks shipping delay on them. It's because they made 12. I think there's a little bit of games on ship around the Apple ship dates lately. Yeah.

That's total conspiracy theory. But every new Apple product is like people go to order them and then there's the whole cycle of the ship dates are slipping. And it's like, yeah, then you hear the earnings report. They're like, we sold more max than ever. And I'm like, those ideas don't connect. Like, on the one hand, no one appears to be able to buy one. And at the other hand, you're like, I've sold more than ever. Everybody's getting them.

They're fine. We did an interview with Microsoft about it's smart service camera, which is ridiculously expensive. But I only bring it up because Microsoft did the thing Apple was trying to do and actually appears to have done it, where they took smartphone camera parts, put some AI around them, made them smarter, made a really good webcam. $800. You know what else did that? For $300, the Opal C1. So the Opel is really interesting because that's a startup. We have them.

We reviewed them. To get the software features, the Opels, $4 a month. It's just such a, like, good business. They're like, we got you. You want to spend $800? Do you want to buy this giant iPad that's not an iPad? Or $4 a month, and you got us? A hundred months later, they will have made $800.

Like, that doesn't quite, I'm not that, but I feel like people are more resistant to those fees than if they just made the thing $600. Yeah. But every harbor startup means recurring revenue. We've covered that endlessly. But read the service camera thing because it's really interesting. I think this, the idea that computational photography is coming to more things, especially webcams, is sort of undeniable. It's just funny that Apple, which is one of the two pioneers of this whole thing, just like duffed it.

You're like bad? And they have a whole iPad in there. A whole one. Yeah. Like the internals of an iPad you can go by. So we'll see. Again, maybe this thing will come out. Maybe it's because they use that ultra-wide camera and they're cropping it.

Yeah. Which seems like a likely culprit now after all this discussion. But Microsoft has done it. I imagine at some point some division at Google will just like fart one of these out with no self-control. Like the tech exists in so many places in the industry. It's like, why wouldn't you just? do it. Google makes Google Meat. Why wouldn't they just make a Google Meet camera? I've just got really, I just started thinking about all the different tiny, didn't Google made a tiny

camera at one point, a tiny standalone camera? The clips. Yes, it was terrible. It tried to use AI to determine when it should take photos. And guess what? AI is not good at knowing when it should take photos. And also it couldn't take good photos. Right. The AI was pointed at the wrong problem of when do you want a photo as opposed to should the photo look good. they're like, put this camera in your home and it will record all the time and make smart decisions about one photo should happen. Very confusing idea. Lastly, German at Bloomberg, rumor today. And there's like a rumor that everyone's taking credit for predicting, but it's the most obvious prediction in the world that Apple is going to start doing the iPhone as a subscription.

Didn't they already kind of done that? So what they have is like the iPhone upgrade program, right? And so like you pay a monthly fee for that. And then every year you can trade it for a new iPhone. What they don't have, and what I would guess would be a part of this new thing is bundled that with any services. So what would make sense is you subscribe to this and you get an iPhone and you get Apple Music and you get Apple TV. They combine the Apple One subscription with an iPhone subscription, which kind of makes sense. If you back out how most people are before an iPhone now, it's a subscription.

Yes, either to their carrier or to Apple or whatever. They're paying a monthly fee for it. So what is 0% financing, if not a monthly subscription fee for your phone? Right. So then Apple, just trying to grow its subscription business, they've got to make more Reese Witherspoon TV shows. I need them. Very excited about the morning show season three. You bundle Apple One into this and you're like, for $100 a month, you get all the Apple services and we'll give you a new iPhone every year.

It's like kind of a good deal. At the same time, it's like, or I could just own it. It'll be a winner. Yeah. But I just, I like buying things and having them. I mean, that's like the worst part about, I think I was selling Dan this, the Apple credit card you get zero percent down. And so nowadays I'm like, well, I mean, that's just like 50 bucks for 12 months. And then I've got the thing for free.

Like, I own it. That's great. It's just like limited subscriptions. This is why millennials don't have houses, Alex. Yeah, I know. I spend it all on iPads and Avicode customers. It's terrible. Yeah.

I mean, the whole industry is moving towards this, right? The Opel C1 at $4 a month for a camera. Apple at $100 a month for your phone. Like, it's all the same. I just, I wonder if there's ever going to be any pendulum swinging back. A hundred percent. I think if the costs of things keep going up, which it seems like they're going to, that's just going to push people more towards financing the subscriptions.

Like, what the phone financing programs allowed them to do was start selling $1,000 phones and not have people walk out of the store. because it's now $45 a month for three years or whatever the terms are as opposed to $1,000 up front. And I'm a feeling that these services and these features are just going to allow them to continue to raise the price of smartphones and pushing that envelope without people realizing that their phone is now $1,500. And I think you're also going to see just overall subscription fatigue, right?

Like everybody wanted to cut the cord because they wanted to escape these giant ballooning costs, and now they are right back having those giant ballooning costs. And like, I think we're like a couple of Netflix price raises away from everybody saying, you know what, I'm done with subscriptions. I'm going to go. I'm not going to buy DVDs because nobody buys DVDs anymore. But like maybe I'll just watch my TV. This is Elon Musk tweeting the Plex logo.

That's what you're describing. The richest man on earth being like Plex is what I'm doing. And that was BitTorrent. I'm sorry. The Plex people are going to be really mad. He tweeted the BitTorrent logo. Great. I watch Plex every night.

It's wonderful with my legally acquired content. You're legally acquired. What I've been watching is a bunch of open source copyright-free training videos about Linux. I watch them every night. Every night. Every night. They're beautiful. Very entertaining.

Public domain Linux training videos available on Plex.com. By the way, speaking of the reasons phone prices have gone up, 5G is like the culprit, right, both for the plans and the service. And now Google's like, yeah, we're not going to upgrade the pixels to 5G sub-6, which is just hilarious. It's baffling. Like, just to clarify, the pixels we're talking about are the pixel 5, pixel 5A, and the pixel 4A5G, which all support 6G or sub-6 5G now. And in the case of the pixel 5, it also supports millimeter wave. What Google is not doing is they are not adding the new C-band sub-6, which is the good one. if you're on Verizon and AT&T.

If I could mail in my millimeter wave radios, I'd be like, take them. Wait. Yes. So the thing is, the hardware is there, and they actually support C-Band in other countries. They're just like, you know what, we don't need to do it on these in the U.S.

So. Is that because they've only sold four of them? Like, that could be. Like, how many people can be mad? Back when we reviewed the Pixel 5A, there was FCC certification that they had gotten approved for C-Band support on there,

and Google would not come. commit to telling us that it will submit support C-Band. And so in our review of the Pixel 5A that Allison wrote last year, she said the hardware's there, the certifications there, Google will not commit to supporting it. And we got a lot of blowback there. Everyone's like, oh, the support's there, the certifications there. It's just because the C-band hasn't rolled out on the networks that they're going to definitely do it.

And now it's just sweet vindication now that Google's like, no, we're not going to do it, which is like a bummer. We actually wanted to be wrong there and, like, wanted them to support it. But yeah, and they also support Cband on the Pixel 6 and the 6 plus, so 6 Pro, excuse me. So it's a bummer. The hardware's there. The certification's there. It's just like a software switch.

I'm just saying they might support Cband on the pixel 6, but they don't support a phone that looks good because it's still the ugliest phone in the world. We should talk about it. It's so ugly. I'm just like, every time I look at mine, I'm like, why did you do this? Last thing in this section, Eero put out a new one. Wi-Fi 6-E router supports over Kigibit speeds. That's neat. Nothing supports Wi-Fi 6E, but that leads me into thread.

Well, the Pixel 6 does. Well, great. You know why? Because it's a giant, unwieldy phone. They put any radio they want there. C-band, thread, whatever. 6-E, you name it. Ero has a long-supported thread.

This has been their bet since the beginning. There are some thread things out there, but what was supposed to tie it all together was matter, which was supposed to hit in June. It's been delayed three months, and now the companies that are like, holy bet on matter are like, yeah, this will be fine. They seem to be really optimistic about it. Jen has a report that went up today. She spoke to Nanoleef and spoke to Eve, who have both kind of been part of the matter development since the beginning. They are both toe in the line of, you know, this is going to be great.

It's great that's still being delayed three months because it allows it to be better. And if it launched and it wasn't great and it failed, that would be a mess. And yes, that's true. But the problem is, Nanoleaf in particular, has not launched a new product in over a year. It's saying because it's been waiting for Matter support to come out. So they haven't been able to launch new products. And they revealed to Jen that the existing thread products that they've already released will not be updated to Matter, which is a big bummer because thread is kind of one of the core technologies part of the Matter spec. A lot of people kind of assumed just going back to our Universal Cardinal rule, never.

never hope for something that doesn't exist yet. But many people assume that because the essentials light bulbs and light strip supported thread, which allows them to talk to a home pod mini, that they would be updated matter. And they're not going to be. Natalie Leaves says that they will be releasing new versions that support matter. Did they give a reason why? So because of the changing matter spec, apparently the bulbs do not have the hardware. They don't have the right chip in there to support.

This is why you should never be an early adopter. I say on my Macs studio that I just bought. I think the people who early adopted nanoleefs are like pretty happy. They're not, I don't know. I early adopted some like three months ago. Like you could still buy them. Like they're just on the market. Well, they're still lighting up your house.

Yeah, they do the job. Yeah, from time to time. But like you're going to have FOMO when Matter comes out. The usual, the usual smart home world. But then Eve is very interesting in that they are a company that only supports HomeKit and they've been waiting for Matter to open up support to the other platforms. So they can't actually, like their products do not work with Amazon Alexa or Google HomeKit. home and they are planning to use Matter as their connector to support those other ecosystems.

So, like, until Matter launches, Eve is like keeping on, keep it on as a HomeKit vendor, but it's missing out on this giant part of the market of the other platform. So it's kind of interesting how the shifting time scale of the Matter spec is impacting these companies that are planning to rely on it. Yeah. We'll see if it comes out. And then we'll see how the big platforms, the Amazon's, the Googles and the Apple's actually, like, enable. the ecosystem because they're all, even in Jen's piece, they all still want to compete and

differentiate. So it's still going to be weird. Yep. But we'll see. It's just this fall. I will say there were some pretty loud hints in that piece from, it was an antileaf or was it from E? It was from one of their executives.

It's like, well, Apple puts out new software in September. Huh? This fall? You know what I'm saying? So we'll see. Last little Spartan thing. The Google home app is a disaster and it seems like Google's going to change it. It's all getting a little better.

They're getting sliding. now for the lights as opposed to buttons. Yeah. Like all things. Someone forgot that it existed and someone remembered. Oh, we should fix it. Just trying to remove a device from the Google Home app is hilarious. It's like, do you want to disconnect every Belkin device in your house?

It's like, no, I got rid of one plug. So I reviewed the Nest Wi-Fi. Yeah. Three years ago or something. And before I sent it back to Google, I didn't do like the right dance mantra. to like reset the node and now it's stuck in my Google Home app. Not even like the main router, the secondary node part of it. I cannot remove from my Google Home app no matter what I do.

And I'm just like, I give up. I've got an old Sonos like review unit. Like I think it was the beam. Like the first beam, my Google Home just fully believes it's in my house. There's no discussion. And the only way to get rid of it is to completely disconnect my entire Sonos system and set it back up again. Whatever, man, you can believe there's a beam in this house for as long as you want. I don't care. I don't give a shit. Okay, we got to take a break. We can come back, do a little

TV lightning round. TV's on the ceiling. Yes. You finally understand why we started the show that way. It's going to happen. We'll be right back. Support for the show comes from LinkedIn. If you're a small business owner, you know that every hire counts, but time and resources are limited. finding, connecting with, and screening the right candidates takes up valuable time you could be giving to your customers. That's where LinkedIn Hiring Pro comes in. It's built to be your hiring partner, helping you find the right candidates faster. That way you can hire with confidence without turning it into another full-time job. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates

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We're back. Lots of little TV news. Should we just start with the freestyle, explain this? this horrible joke? Yeah. All right. So the joke is very much an inside joke in that there is a startup-y dentist's office in New York now. And a bunch of our staff, yes, a bunch of our staff have been going to get their teeth cleaned.

And apparently they have TVs installed in the ceiling. So when you're lying there in the dentist chair, you can watch TV and it's like right well they're. They're not using a projector. They give you little headphones, but they're not noise canceling. So. Wait, Alex has been to this office. I've been there. I went there.

And then I told other people, I was like, this was good. And they take our insurance. It was nice. But yeah, I went there. And they were like, okay, you can watch whatever you want. I'm like, what do you watch when you're getting your teeth cleaned? Like, I don't, what's the appropriate thing to watch? My kids watch Frozen on the TV in their dentist's office.

But I didn't want to. So I watched the Anna Delvey show. But I couldn't actually hear anything because they gave me headphones that, that don't stay on when you're laying back and don't have noise canceling. so you can't hear, like, this wasn't great. But just having a TV on above, like, it just looms over you. You lay back, and there's just a TV on the ceiling. And it was very baffling for, I feel like a lot of people at the verge

for why you would have that on the ceiling. But if you want that experience at home, and you don't want to put a TV in the ceiling, the Samsung freestyle projector is a thing they announced that CES, is this little almost portable, but not really portable, because it doesn't have a battery in it, projector that you can easily rotate and point up at the ceiling. So if you're lying in bed and Chris, who reviewed it, made this point in his piece. He was lying in bed not feeling great

for a while. And he just threw the projector on his ceiling and was watching TV there in the middle of the night when he couldn't sleep. It's a very novel concept. You can actually do this with any projector by just tilting it up. Right. This is what I'm saying. But this is a cool projector. We put out the freestyle review and then people, not verge staffers, not people in need of dental care have been tweeting at me, it's awesome to put a projector on the ceiling. So I'm just saying there's a latent, this is the silent majority in the United States of America, TV on the ceiling. The real projector market is people who want to put it on the ceiling. So the problem with the freestyle is that there's many problems.

You should definitely read the review for all of them. I'm going to highlight the fact that its hinge uses plastic screws and a plastic mount and you can't get it tight enough to actually stay. without sagging after a while. That's bad. So, like, if you try to tighten the screws too far, Samsung actually warns you that you'll break them because they're plastic screws. So it says don't overtighten the screws.

But then if they're not tight enough, the projector just kind of sags halfway through your movies. So then you have to reset it. Why are companies, like, companies are telling us not to move power cords. They're telling us not to tighten screws. Like, just let us do it. I just, it's $900. Just ship the good screws.

Yeah. And the main problem with it, though, is it is not bright enough. The brightness rating is somewhere around like 250 antsy lumens, which is very dim for a projector. Basically means you need to be in a perfectly black room. You can't have any ambient light. You can't really use it during the day unless you have it really close to your wall or close to your ceiling, I guess. And you have a small 30-inch screen out of it, which just kind of defeats the whole purpose of a projector where you want to get a bigger screen image out of it. So, you know, they whiffed there and, like, other projectors in this price range of $900 to $1,000 or $1,200 get much brighter.

They can be used outdoors. You know, they can be used in normal lighting rooms. I think the key thing is all of these projectors still kind of suck. Well, I think the secret is all projectors suck. Like, like, projectors are a great idea that everyone thinks about. Like, oh, I hate having this TV on my wall. You know, you're like poking an angry bear here. But how much are they paying for their setup to get that?

And like you, it is like you have to get serious. They're spending $30,000 for a laser projector. And then it's going to be gorgeous. But like if you're spending like, projectors are great, but you have to actually budget in a lot of money. You have to budget in a room where you can control the lighting. And you have to budget in a screen, like a reflective screen to do it. And most people are like, yeah, but can't I just have spend $900 and put it on the wall? and like Chris had this thing at the office the other day.

I went in and looked at it and it's don't don't do that. Well, I think there's a couple things here. One, you know, Iron Law of the Vergecast, big cheap screens. Like a projector looks like the biggest cheapest screen you can get. Like inch per inch, the cheapest way to get a big screen. Some people love that. There's an interesting moment happening in that market, though, where smart projectors, especially smart portable projectors are like,

the Samsung freestyle. It validates what a bunch of companies have been doing for a long time. Anchor, Epson, others. So, like, Samsung entered the market at $900 with a amount that lets you, like, screw it into a light bulb socket. Gotta tape it.

There's an element where, like, this is going to be really cool. Then, there's what I have begun to call Lumengate in the projector market. If anyone wants to write an outraged editorial about fake Lomens, I will pay you for it. All these companies are using a weird Lumen's measurement

that isn't Lomens. So Samsung's like, this is like, 600 lumens or something, but it's actually 250. Yeah, so there's ANSI measurement, ANSI, which is like the standard that averages the brightness across the frame. And then, so that gives you the actual brightness of what you can expect. And then there's the measurement that, the fake measurement that Unilai alluded to that is like a small, tiny percentage of the screen gets, you know, to a certain brightness.

And that's where, you know, the marketing numbers all end up with, because it's bigger and brighter. But in reality, it's not that bright. So anyway, so people are, you can buy a non-smart projector that's pretty good in that $800,000 range. And you will have a great 4K picture. You could do it outside. It'll be bright. It'll do all the things.

You'll just have to like plug a fire stick into it or something. Then there's this market, which is what if we put a shitbox smartphone in this projector? What if we, you know, turn an Android smartphone into a projector? Have you heard of the media tech processor? because you have, right? It's all here. And so I have like two of them. I've got the little anchor nebula capsule.

The soda can. The soda can, which is like, you know, this is the thing that invented the market. It's a very fun. It's also like 300 or 400 or 400 bucks, right? It's fun. We, in the summers, we take it out by like our fire pit and just like, it's a, you can barely see it in the daytime. And we hutch frozen by the fire in a little day.

And then that just like led me all the way to, I want to watch football outside. side and I just started like trade you know that thing like you start with a paperclip you trade your way to it house like I just like kept on like buying and returning ever more expensive projectors and I still wanted a smart one because I didn't want to mess with a fire stick so I ended up at like 1500 bucks I think it was refurbished I got it for like 1200 bucks I'm a big saver here and it's like XG mini a brand I've never heard of it has Harmon card and speakers it's 4k it's hDR and it works well it's the most expensive and then Samsung's like right in the middle with this underpowered Tysen projector.

So they're, but they're priced in the middle, but it performs like the soda can. Performs like the anchor, yeah. Yeah, I think if Samsung had prices at $400 or $500, like we could be like, okay, you give up a lot of compromises,

but it's this neat little thing. Now, like, what would the hinges have been like if they'd priced it there? Like, what would they have been made out of? No hinges, no, there'd be no light bulb adapter. The one thing Samsung has going for it is all of these smart projectors I've been talking about, they do have Google Play on them.

Yeah. I think mine runs Android 10, which is like the highest you can get. Yeah. They're a little behind. The Play Store's on there. Most apps are on there. Netflix will not certify its app for these smart projectors. Right.

You got to break out the fire stick and the Roku stick to get your Netflix on them. No, no, no, no. They're smarter than that now. That's what you used to have to do. Now they have installed, they have an app that spoofs a side load of Netflix, and you run the Netflix smartphone app. I love it. It is nuts.

It's not great. It's super like it's. This is why my Netflix subscription keeps getting more expensive because Nilai's ex-Gime projector is bootlegging Netflix apps. It's like, are the police going to come to my house? I don't know what's happening. But Samsung got Netflix to certify the real app for this projector. Because it's the same software that they run on their TV.

It's the same Tysin platform. Right, but I'm running the same Android platform as my Sony TV. that runs Android. It's just like XG Mini didn't have the fucking juice to get Netflix. You didn't spend the $500 Netflix surcharge that the freestyle has. That must be it.

So I love these things. They're fun to play with. I wouldn't be as dismissive of projectors. I'm terrifically dismissive. I want like, I want an actually good picture. So, you know, I think it goes back to this idea of external GPUs. and thin gaming devices.

It's a great idea. Everyone loves the idea of not having a turned off TV hanging on their wall, taking up wall space all the time. But then the reality hits of what it takes to get a good projector and what it takes to get a good portable, thin gaming laptop experience. Yeah. And then the reality hits of like, I'm definitely drinking a beer and watching football outside. I think my real frustration with it is as long as I've lived in New York, people always come

up to me and say, hey, summer's coming. I have roof access. I want to watch movies on my roof. What's the best projector I can get for $500? Yeah. And I'm like, this doesn't exist. Stop it. Stop asking me this question.

So the other weird thing about the Samson pre-style is it doesn't have a battery. So like the anchor soda can, and even I think a lot of the XGME ones and stuff, have batteries in them that will last long enough to get you through a movie. This one you have to like either plug a 50 watt plus power brick into it or have a power outlet. So it's like it's compact, but it's not really portable. in that you have to bring power to it now. I think the most illuminating part of this conversation is I own this product, and I've thought it's called XG Mini for one full year, and I just learned it's, what is it, XGMe?

XGMe. Yeah, I own one. I gave them my money. I just, like, haven't paid very much attention to it. Well, you got the refurb one, so maybe the logo was scratched off or something. Harmon Cardin. That's the logo that I, like, really looked at. Is it really Harmon Cardin or is it like Harmon Corden?

It's a side-loaded, Car and speaker system. Well, I can tell you, the freestyle does not have AKG speakers, which Samsung actually owns Harmon and AKG, which is hilarious. Where's the Bixby speakers for it? A couple more TV things. Free TV shows with ads in them are like sweeping the industry. Everybody's doing it.

Everyone's doing it. I mean, Julia Alexander, this was her thing before she left. She would always say, like, ad-supported streaming is going to happen to everyone. So Netflix has made its rumbles. YouTube is adding 4,000 episodes of free TV. supported by advertising. I hope it's just like heart to heart. I just wanted to be like all these shows nobody walked.

Like the shows you see on Ovation, that's what I want for this. I'm just saying HBO Max needs to add a button that's like what extremely obscure 80s sitcom do you want to watch because they're all there. By the way, pump up the volume on HBO Max now. That's about half of my personality. If you should go watch that movie, it's all in there. And then here's the real. really interesting one that we should end on. Sonos has a bunch of job listings up for a home

theater OS. Yes. Here's my prediction. They're going to make a TV. Oh, it's going to be a bad TV. I don't know. Would it be, though? I mean, it's going to be expensive because Sonos products tend to tilt towards more expensive. It could, you know, have a built-in Sonos arc. I see, I was thinking they were going to go more like when Roku did all of its home theater kits slash speakers. like that's that's kind of where my my brain went reading this news well so let me read the job listing the job listing is head of partnerships home theater the head of partnerships for our next generation sonos home theater OS will play a pivotal role in connecting users the content and services they love with sonous quality experiences that come to accept I'm telling you what they're trying to do if you

just think about what's sonos right now like their best selling products are the beam and the arc and then like the ones like the little ones if you're stuck plug in in someone else's tv you're hooped that's not the future. And like you've got to convince everybody to like buy a thing. If you actually sell the TV with the Sonos in it, then you can like let people just stream music to those speakers. Sonos radio. Right? And then you can you can immediately have the ecosystem instead of letting Roku.

Sonos free TV supported by ads. I'm telling you. But we got to get all the apps. Like Sonos can't be sidelode in the Netflix phone app. That's just my prediction. Yeah, they have to get like, I mean, I think the thing I'd be worried about there is Sonus is known for. doing good work. Like, its audio quality is actually really good for this stuff.

It has to get a really good TV panel. If it has, like, a garbage TV panel, like, we will be just as mean to it as we were the Mac Studio display, right? Yeah, but a good TV panel. It's actually kind of hard to do. It's commodity. LG display will sell it to you. Right.

Like, LG display will sell you an OLED panel. There are any number, I mean, I will not be happy if they go with the high-end LCD, but, like, there's any number of really high-end local dimming LCD. it'll do the trick. They just go with a TCL panel. And I think that's my concern is that they will go with something like a TCL panel or and just you'll have like a perfectly fine. I mean, actually that makes total sense the more I think about it and talk about it. Yeah, they'll go with like a really cheap panel and be like, but it's Sonos branding and Sonos speakers.

I don't know. This is the company that sells an $800 subwifer. And I own it. It's great. They're not afraid. Yeah. And it's good. They're not afraid to charge a high price for what.

they consider a premium product and premium experience. So I would see a $2,000 sonos TV that's got a good panel in there and built-in speaker systems and stuff like that, that, you know, has the same image quality as a $1,200 LG, but you're paying that $800 markup for the Sonos. Yeah, I just don't think they can make a box, right? There's only two ways this goes. If you're making a home theater thing and you've got partnerships and one of the job listings here is UX lead, Next Generation Home Theater Experience, and it requires eight year of experience

successfully designing user interfaces for mobile and TV. What if they built it into the sound bar? That's what I was saying, like the Roku. Like they skipped the TV, yeah. Yeah, Roku did those sound bars. You just plug it in and you go. But again, I think the thing there is like, if you're buying Sonos, you probably can't afford and would already have like an Apple TV,

which I think is still kind of the high watermark. It and Shield or kind of the high watermark for home theater. Yeah, and throw that shield in there. You're like, I saw the theater in your eyes. I was like, oh, my God. I got to remember the Shield guys. I love you guys. I haven't turned mine on in four weeks.

We remember you. You're wonderful. One day I will play you again. Yeah, I kind of agree. The TV market is such a commodity. And like you are competing against Samsung and LG and Sony and all these established brands. It would make sense to go into the soundbar.

I was thinking about this last night and I almost started a rant about it on Twitter. So Apple, you know, has a very lovely. product and they have this coming up next feature in their like specific Apple TV thing. And it aggregates all of the stuff you watch in one spot. And you can say, oh, I want to watch this next because I just finished watching it. Except for Netflix. Except for Netflix. And also, it doesn't let you choose what app to open it in.

So every time I watch 911, it's like, do you want to open it in an app you're not signed up for or Spectrum, which is garbage or Hulu? And I'm like, I want to do Hulu. And they're like, no, no, no. Spectrum we go. It's terrible. And I hate it. And Apple used to let you choose.

I'll stop reading about it later. Anyway, what if it's boxy? That's a deep cut. That's, especially for this show. In a long time. What if, what if this is like the one that, like, because they, their, Sonos is actually really good at making these partnerships, right? Like, it's good at getting this stuff onto its products.

So what if it's like, oh, we'll do like a cool aggregation product. I would buy that in a heartbeat. Yeah, I just think they're going to make a TV. I think they put it in the sandbar or they put it anywhere else. Like, you can do that stuff. But you're still fighting someone else's interface. Yeah. You're still fighting someone else's processing.

You make the TV and you're like, this is a great Sonos TV. It's calibrated out of the box. It doesn't look crazy. It's got this cool new interface. I mean, this is the same argument for Apple to make a TV. I'm not saying I'm not repurposing the argument. I'm saying the job listings are right in front of me. And I would have very much like someone to make a TV with not ridiculous software.

No one will ever do that. It would be great. So that's my prediction. It is probably likely that they will do like Roku and stick it in a thing. But even Roku started making TVs. That's the whole reason like TCL is successful in this country is because of Roku. Yeah. Well, it's the reason TCL's successful, period.

Yeah. I will say that Roku's business model is wildly different than Sonos. So it would be interesting how that would, you know, coalesce or mesh. Do boxy. Come on, Sonos. Do it for me. Alex is just like way pretty. It's this is like early year one or two of the verge.

Like we were deep on the boxy story. Oh my gosh. Like Averroen and I got down. I went to like the suicide girls were at a boxy party in the middle of New York. Like I was like, what's happening? And then Samsung bought them. And I went to this like very sad coffee. And they're like, Samsung doesn't understand us.

And I was like, no one understands you. My like I cut my teeth as a tech journalist like writing about failed ideas in television. It's so brutal. I'll never get over it. My boxy tattoo stings. You have a boxy tattoo. Oh, my God. And you won't give the Shield the time of day.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My mentions are going to be horrible after this. That's true. If you are an Nvidia Shield fan and you think Alex should respect you, you can tweet it. And you just want to talk about Boxy, tweet at me. I'll talk to you. We should have another Boxy meetup.

We should just be like an old school. Oh, man. Remember the Boxy TV? I still have the remote. It's a great device. All of these memories are flooding back, which means it's time to end the show. We have, as always, we've gone over. You can tweet at us.

Dan is DCC for it. Alex is Alex H. Kranz. I am at Reckless. We're going on spring break next week, so we're not going to have a show. It's a real thing. I'm going to drink a beer on the beach. It's not going to be like actual spring break because we're going to have our children. It's what it's going to be is a projector playing blueie on the side of the house.

I'm taking the capsule. The blueie is going to be out of control. So we're off next week, then we'll be back. There's some stuff you should listen and read, though, all over the site. You've got a great piece about the visual effects in Spider-Man, No Way Home. Ashley Carman, her last piece on The Verge, even though she's at Bloomberg now, finally went through legal. It's a serious X-M bought Earwolf and Stitcher and kind of bungle it all up. And then Ash has a great piece on video game preservation, which is excellent.

I highly recommend it. We have the chief product officer of Robin Hood, Aburno Chenna, Pregata, on Decoder. I'll just admit to everyone. I try to ask the questions about blockchain and climate, and it's never good enough. At some point, I'm just going to be like, are you personally reducing the emissions? Or will you quit blockchain?

You have to commit to one or other. I try. We're going to keep asking the blockchain questions of the blockchain people, because I think it's important to ask. I'm just not going to personally arrest them and put them in jail, which is what people appear to want me to do.

Other than that, like I said, we're off next week, but then we'll be back. It's the fair chest, y'all. That's the whole show. Rock and roll.