The Vergecast - Encryption in the hype matrix

Episode Date: February 19, 2016

This week on Vergecast, Nilay returns, bringing in business editor Ben Popper to unfold his feature on public schools’ initiative to bring Chromebooks into classrooms. Reporter Russell Brandom joins to discuss the timely debate on encryption in light of this week’s Apple news. Racked style editor Nicola Fumo reclaims the hype desk to introduce the "Fumo hype matrix." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of Averge.com, which now is indeed a fleet of podcasts. We have so many of them. It's getting like honestly out of hand. But this is the Vergecast, the oldest, the finest. What? It's just this one. I know what I'm doing with my hands. I like it.

The oldest, the finest. The most aged. Better with age. Yeah, exactly. The most vintage of our shows. I, case you're wondering, and I'm Nealai Patel.

I'm the editor-in-chief of the verge. To my right, sadly not Dieter-Bone, who remains on his honeymoon. But, and when he comes back, we will talk all about the drone because it was a whole thing. But to my right,

is Russell Branden. Ace security reporter. Hi. To my left, Ben Popper. Ace. Well, today you're like an Ace Chromebook reporter, but Ace Business reporter.

I know a lot about drones. We can definitely talk about. Oh, we should get in some drones. Oh, yeah. Ben's also a drone reporter. Yeah, oh my God, the range of experience surrounding me is incredible. And then, over there, in a new desk today for some reason, our girl Fimo. Hello, it's me, Nicola.

How's it gone? It's going all right? You're wearing, everyone has commented on this, like, I think you look like a 1940s aviator. Like you're about to aviator. Oh, okay, I see that. For those in the car. Yeah, the most important people, Nicola.

Yes, as it's been drawn to man. It's a long-sleeve white blouse with a tar. turtle neck, but also a V cutout. Yeah. And everyone keeps saying it's Kardashian-esque. And I'm not that mad at it, to be honest. No, I think it's great. It was Fashion Week, and I spent a lot of time in the same room as various Kardashians

this week. Yeah. How was it? Tell me what that's like. I mean, it's funny because I keep telling people it's like drugs where you, it's like really exciting. The first time it's a high. And then the more times it's just like, I don't know, there they are. Here I am.

I don't really want. want to reach for the photo. I don't care. You need more Kardashians in the room every time to get that. Yeah, to get back to the same place. Yeah, exactly. You need the whole fam.

What's that first high like, though? Really? I'm trying to think the first time I was... When the needle hits your veins. The first time I was in the room... It might have been an easy season one Kanye's first fashion show a year ago. And that was pretty exciting because I was like three rows away from them.

And I was like, oh my God, they're all right there. Like, North is there. Chloe, kid. Yeah, the whole situation. The whole situation. And now it's just like, I don't know. There they are again. I don't want to...

It's sad. They all... They all got the bodyguards and they don't have any freedom. I don't know. I don't have any freedom. They're literally like caged animals. Yeah. I want to quickly just ask,

do you think that Kanye West is $50 million in debt? And why is he specifically... $53 million in debt? Why is he asking tech billionaires for the money? Not for the first time. He did Schmidt like ages ago. He was like, Eric Schmidt. Smith should have paid him.

Donda. Eric Schmidt should have invested in Donda. I mean, Zuck should pay him. Like, we should all donate to Kondon. No, like, Zucker, here's a thing. Here's my theory. Zuckerberg should not do it because he's busy.

Right? Like, Zuckerberg has things to do. He's got a country to run. He's got an India to colonize. Like, you know, he's got like a whole. I've got a wife to murder. You know, it's like the whole thing. Wow.

If I don't have a frame for it, it's a princess bride reference. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's like busy, right? Yeah. And it was like Larry Page was the other one. Yeah, more Google. No.

No, Schmidt, yeah, Schmidt. No, but Schmidt was like way before. Oh, oh, yeah. Larry Page was like the other, yeah. Yeah, it was like this time it was like Zuckerberg in page. I think Schmidt dropped off his radar. He's like not sure Schmidt has enough to give him. Right, like Eric Schmidt's job was like, well, I've got these crazy kids who are going to make me rich.

I better just keep them in line and follow models on Instagram. And the Donda Orchart includes a lot of X things. It's like hovercraft, stuff like that, you know. Like Eric Schmidt should be like, you know what, you're my next Larry Page. I will be Kanye West's adult supervision. Yeah. That'd be great, actually, if after Facebook and Google, Eric Schmidt and Cheryl Sandberg started adult supervision for various rock stars.

Oh, man. CEO and COO of Donda. We just... Did we publish the Donda org chart? Did you see the Donda org chart? Oh, my God, yes. The Donda org chart. So if you haven't seen it, if you're listening, Kanye West made, like, I don't know,

if you can't call it to order. It's like a list of boxes with, like, insane things in them. It's like any industry. It's like healthcare. like technology, fashion, and then inside of it he has different, like, job titles. And it's little black boxes with white text. And they're all just, like, sitting next to each other. And he says he made it four years ago.

And he was like, you all laughed at me then. And he, like, retweet it. So one of the bot, I'm just going to start reading at random from the dawn to org chart, which, by the way, is spelled the communications company at the top. All that you said, the typos is how you know it's me. Yeah. Categories of influence organizational chart. I'm just going to read, there's so many boxes here. There's just one labeled internet.

And here are the things under the internet box. One page destination, social media, e-commerce, web music store, web books, and then my favorite, luxury cloud service. Yes. Which to me makes that sense. And then just under that. Well, no, like this is, we're going to lose Micah. He's going to be the luxury cloud service, the head of luxury cloud service at Dondo. Yeah.

And then right below that, it says mobile phones. and then right next to mogul phones in slightly smaller type, it just says Microsoft. It's just so confusing. So good. Oh, there's also a luxury search engine, which obviously. It is true. Sometimes Google feels a little bit just for the plebs.

This is your moment. Okay. So Nicola pitched me. She's like, we got to take the hype check to the next level. No, no, no. Let me explain. No, well, I'm trying to get you out. Whatever.

Fine. Do your thing. I don't like you. That's untrue. He was trying to set you up. I was setting you up on a high. So I inherited this hype desk and also a thing called hype check from Sam Schaeffer, who owns the phrase, I think, and it never really felt like me.

So in my week off, I decided to come up with a thing that felt more like me that I could comment on. So I have this chart that I made. If you're in the car, on the x-axis, on the left is drab and on the right is elegant. And on the y-axis at the top is ostentatious and at the bottom is practical. So it's a matrix. It's a matrix. It's a matrix. It's a matrix.

It's a hype matrix. Yeah. If you guys want to. We're really ratcheting up. The original hype check wasn't even a single dimension. It was like either on or off. Yeah. It never really worked.

It was always a free form. So now we've got some rigor. We have a rubric. So if you were designing a luxury search engine. A luxury search engine is. Stop, stop. Tell me where's Google on the hype matrix? Whoa.

Yeah. A practical. Practical. A little drab. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Highly practical, a little drab.

Although, like, the other alphabet stuff, it gets kind of ostentatious when they're like. When they're like swooping. And they're like building a pill that keeps you from dying. That's true. It gets a little. A pill that keeps you from dying. Where does that kind of? That's ostentious drab.

Like, not dying isn't. I mean, it would be practical if it works and we just all took these pills. Yeah. For a while, it's going to be maybe. Just like, if anyone's confused, I have a couple plot points for people to kind of like get familiar. Like an iPhone is practical, elegant. Almost every computer mouse is drab practical.

Yeah. Oh, we got to show you some. We can... Okay, there are something. Can everyone send... Almost every... Nicola underscore Fumo on Twitter, send her a picture of your favorite gaming mouse.

I don't even know what a gaming mouse is. I don't really want to know. I don't really want to know. But the thing that I can't solve is what technology item or service is ostentatious and also elegant, because what I have plotted right there is the... magnum of moe on my desk. That's ostentatious and also elegant. Isn't it like the

how expensive is the most expensive Apple Watch? Yeah, like the gold Apple Watch? Is that not elegant? Oh, I guess that's ostentatious, elegant. Yeah. Yeah, that one. Julia, our practice features editor, suggested self-driving cars might be

ostentatious and elegant. But I don't really know what they look like. I think like what's the, yeah, like the big Tesla's. Or she said anything to do with fancy space. Fancy space. Like virgin space. Virgin Galactic.

Yeah. That's shit still, like, okay, here's the thing about Virgin Galactic. I'm just going to put this out there. Richard Branson, personal hero of mine. I would one day like to grow up to be a legendary Silver Fox, just a fact of my life. Virgin Galactic is such a fucking lie.

It's like old Russian engines bought on a gray market. It's the most flex ever. It's the most flex ever. He's like, what if we just, I don't, is it like a boat in space? Just bother rushing the shit. And, like, the things crash, right? Didn't one crash? It's a whole...

No, they've had explosions on the, like, launch pads. And by the way, I'm thrown down, like, I would say 15% of the shade that, like, Lauren Grush and Shano came. Yeah. Well, also, I think for a while, it was, like, the only thing. Like, it was the only rich guy who's going to send you to Mars. Yeah. And now there's, I mean, there's much...

Bezos takes it pretty seriously. Bezos and, like, the weird reality show one. Right. that like people are suspicious about, but even that seems maybe more plausible than... No, Virgin Glac. I would say in the ranking, like the bottom of the barrel is the reality show that wants you to die in Mars. Right? Like...

The one-way trip to Mars. Yeah, that... Well, they're all sort of one way. Is that Mars 1? Musk isn't necessarily going to bring you back. No, but I would say like, and then right above that, you have the guy who got rich running a record store. And then somewhere away at the top, it's like two of the most successful tech entrepreneurs in the world. But like record store guy

Yeah he's the one buying like the used Russian engines and being like this is safe All right We should talk maybe we should talk about news Mm-hmm There's so much news this week I mean I can just keep reading the Donda org chart at you Like my ideal version cast

But it's pretty good Under Lifestyle the words container company It's just Those are just there Did you guys see the Colbert thing? He read the Donda Orchart and then also importantly He at Kanye Edda on Twitter He's also going to fix wolves

That's one of the things that he's going to improve on along with her. He really has a song about how much she doesn't like wolves. If I were to tell you that the words, the word hovercrafts was listed on this chart twice, what two categories do you think hovercraft would be listed? Double listed. Transportation. Nope.

Are you wrong? Apparel. Nope. Lifestyle. Nope. I don't know what the categories are. Yeah, it doesn't matter. I will tell you that in one of the categories, Hovercraft is listed just above the word

seven screen movie experience. That's something that. he's already built. That's happened. Out in the desert. So Hovercrafts, by the way, listed in the category of home and also the category of trademarks and patents. Get them. Got to get them.

Very confusing. All right. We should, here's what I like to do in the show right now. I'd like to go from this lighthearted rump. All the way down. All the way down. Bring it down. If you're in your car right now, roll up your windows.

Wait, that doesn't make it darker in a car. If you're in a car right now, just get right now. Just get ready. Yeah. Just, yeah. Did you say pinch your nose? Tint your windows. Tint your windows.

Tens your windows. Buckle your seat belts. Yeah. Buckle your seat belts. Slow down. Get in the right lane. Because we're going to talk about iPhone encryption. Yeah.

Which is why Russell is. And how America is a fascist state. Is it? I mean, I go back. So here's what I'm going to do on this show. I'm going to play the hater. Because I believe deep in my heart that Apple should not break this phone. Yeah.

That's my firm belief. You're saying up front, but. I do not believe Apple should break this phone. Yeah. I, however, am very aware of all of the argument. I was on, like, CNBC yesterday, and, like, every person on the CNBC panel was like, it's a matter of life and death.

And I was like... Even though, like, literally the dude's dead. It's like, it's like already... Okay, but I'm just saying, for the purpose of this conversation, I'm going to play the hater. Yeah, totally. So why shouldn't Apple break this phone open? Because it seems to me, like, it's fairly reasonable.

to say they should break this. So do the quick overview of the story. The thing that happened. So for a long time, okay, so basically it starts with iOS 8, at which point Apple says, we can't serve requests for unlocking phones anymore because now all of the phone is going to be encrypted to your passcode. And so there's no data that we can pull off. And so don't bother serving us with warrants anymore because we can't serve.

can't fill them. And this is in their law enforcement guidelines, which I've been reading very closely this past week. And so the FBI, like, wasn't thrilled about this. I think most of large portions of the government kind of weren't thrilled about it. And they kept getting angrier and angrier. And it was clear they sort of were looking for a place to kind of make their stand. And now, oh, gosh, it was Tuesday night that.

Like, late breaking. Yeah. It was in the evening, I think like 9 p.m. 10 p.m. Eastern time. The court order came down from the Central District of California saying the phone of Siedfaroque, one of the attackers, alleged attackers, I suppose he hasn't been convicted yet. In the San Bernardino attack, they have been looking to get in his phone, and it's one of those phones that Apple can't decrypt. And so they, yeah, they said here is a very, they gave very specific instruction. Because for a while the line was Apple was saying, listen, we can't do it. And they said, okay, do exactly these things.

We want a disk image that's stored in RAM and rewrites the firmware so that there isn't this delay and there isn't a, you know, a disc erasure function if you guess too many times. Because it's his work phone. Yeah, yeah. So like, and it's provision, he worked for the government. So the government, like the state of California, right? Yeah. The government provisioned him this phone. And if they are, I think I saw Tom Warren tweeting about that.

this this morning. Yeah. But if they're even a remotely good IT shop, they like provision the phone. So if you enter the passcode too many, wrong too many times. Well, no, I mean, but this is also like... It's built in, but like the chances of that don't... Yeah, yeah, totally. Because it's like a little bit buried.

Like the regular consumer doesn't have that, right? And it's not like one of those default when you set up an iPhone. Yeah, totally. Well, because also for most people, like, you know, if I'm setting up by dad's iPhone, I wouldn't tell them to turn that on. Yeah. Because, like, you'll just forget your... pass code and accidentally erased your phone.

That's a real threat. Yeah. Anyway, so, but so it's, you got to put it into 5C. Yeah. And you can put the 5C in the firmware upgrade mode, the DfU mode. Yeah, yeah. And what the court is saying, Apple put it in this firmware update mode, and you can load a custom firmware onto the phone that doesn't affect the data that will cancel out

the time delay on passcode entry and will prevent it from erasing the time after time. Yeah, and all of this is, is building. into iOS, like all of these protections. So basically what they're doing is writing a new version of iOS and then sort of, you know, signing it so that the phone will accept it as Apple, which is going to be legally interesting. And then, you know, forcing it on the phone.

The phone is suddenly running. People call it FBIOS. Ooh, that's pretty good. That's pretty good, yeah. And so now it's running FBIOS, and it still works like a phone, except you can sort of tap out as many different passcode combinations as you want.

And they said, just give us the phone back, give the phone back to us like that. And then we'll do whatever we're going to do. Don't worry about it. So if you can flash it with this new image and that, you know, would let you put a new operating system on and then you could make the change, the back door and brute force it, right? Put in the past as many times as possible. Why is the only Apple capable of doing that? Like if I got my hands on your phone and I was a technical genius, could I flash it?

Here are these two things. Okay. So one is you can't, it won't accept the up. Okay. So if you're normally getting an iOS update on your phone, you have to accept it, which includes the passcode. You can put it in through this DFU mode, but it will only accept it if it's signed by Apple's key. So that's really the central thing. And the other protection that exists that I think strengthens Neli's sort of case that they should do this is they said, okay, before you sign it,

make it so that it only works on this one phone. So it's going to go in, it's going to check that it has the ID number that they know this guy's phone has. And if it does, then it'll do all the stuff. So wait, and so here's the thing. They can't, if I then get this and I want to use this to unlock Neli's phone, I could try to reverse engineer it so that suddenly, you know, either I just delete the line where it says check this thing. But then when I want to compile it again, I have to sign it with Apple's key, which I don't have.

So just to back up, because I haven't been following this as close as you guys have. Right. So the situation already exists where they're saying we can't do it, but they do have a special Apple key that would allow them to do it if they so decided to go down that road. Well, no, so they would have, they have to build all this. They have to build the FBI iOS. And it's, so, yeah, it's going to be tricky. And also, like, as anyone who's tried to jailbreak a phone knows, when you try rewriting these things, a lot of the time you just break your phone. And so I think the question of doing something like this that doesn't break the phone and doesn't accidentally erase it and doesn't sort of do all those things is going to be a significant technological challenge.

But, I mean, the second largest technology company in the world. They're largest again. Oh, they are. Oh, okay. I think they're back and forth. Was it this that put them over the top? Do you think that they should do it because, like if the court had said no, then obviously, like if it was just the FBI and not the court? Would you still say Apple should do it?

Or are you saying yes because the court said it? And in the case where the court makes that decision, then Apple should go ahead and take the step of, you know, So once again, I'd like to reiterate that I personally in my heart do not believe that Apple should make this one. This somewhat weakens your case that you have to constantly disclaimer. Because I know someone's going to like tune in halfway through. Yeah, no, totally.

Like I see it coming. But I think my case for why they should do it is one, they have absolutely bad facts. in their favor, right? Like, it's a terrorist, like, on top of it, like an ISIS terrorist. They can do it. ISIS affiliate. I don't care.

Whatever. The facts are bad. Like, it just doesn't matter. Like, the headlines are bad for them. They can do it on this particular model of phone, and they probably can't do it on any other model of, on any newer model of phone. And if they're smart, the iPhone 7 and the 7s and the 8 will be even harder than the 5S, right? So it's like, yeah, you know what?

You should break the 5C. Like, give them the 5C. And then be like, you know what? We basically rope it up to you. We broke this one crap phone. Yeah. But we can't break the 5S because it has touch ID and the secure enclave.

We can't break the 6 or the 6S. And the 7 is even more secure. And the 8 actually doesn't even have a screen and contains no data. Like, basically, like they're in a position where they can give up this one. Give up the dead terrorist. Give up this one dead terrorist

and say our future products are already currently engineered such that we can't do this. And you should explain the secure. Well, yes. So the secure, okay, okay. So we're going to follow vegetables with more vegetables. But then we'll eat cake. So once they put in the fingerprint reader,

they put in a chip, the A7 chip, which is when it came out, people were excited because it made things faster and better. It's a better chip. But it also has this secure enclave. Which is basically another computer. as far as I understand. I mean, kind of.

The funny thing is, this was already, like, this is generically known in security as the secure element. And it's just, like, things have secure elements. And, of course, when Apple does it, they may put a proper name and they're like, it's the secure enclave. That's more ostentatious.

And it's like a French route. Yeah. Where does secure enclave? Yeah. Where does that go on the hype matrix? Um. Your phone has a separate secure computer inside of it. Sounds practical elegant.

There you go. I like it. Yeah. Anyhow, listen, we all like to go to our own secure enclave when things are feeling rough. That's what I call the bathroom. But so, and here's where it gets interesting for like the Apple people is the 5C. Okay, the reason, okay, so for instance, secure elements generally, like Samsung phones have a secure element. Yeah.

It's not a secure enclave, but it's basically the same thing. And this is why, like, it's actually the fingerprint reader is pretty hard to have. hack, right? And so the point of this is to make a very strong bond between the fingerprint reader and it's sort of a hardware route of the entire security system. So they're constantly checking the secure element and this is where the passcode goes and then it's mixed up with a bunch of other things. And then when it comes out, it's much, much stronger and really hard to crack. So this is why generally if you're trying to run a program that does this, it has to use the processing of the secure element. And there are all these, it gets really complicated.

but it's hard. Yeah. And what the FBI is proposing for the 5C, again, because they're so specific about it, they're like, it exists in RAM and then it's going to rewrite software, which will then, you know, the software of iOS, which we think of as the firmware of the phone. It's sort of a little bit. Anyway, it gets squishy. But the point is, you can't do that same thing on an iPhone 5S.

Yeah. Because it has the fingerprint reader, it has a secure element. So why not break this one phone? Well, here's the thing. If you can't do it. Well, now, maybe, maybe you can, though. So here's the tricky thing. So it's clearly harder if the phone has a secure element.

Because basically what you have to do is, you know, you're rewriting the firmer on the phone. You have to rewrite the firmer on the chip, which it's designed to make it so that you can't do that. That is a fact about the chip. But there's always some way. Like in security, you never say anything's impossible. And they're in the FBI. They probably thought about this. I mean, I don't think, we fundamentally just don't know if it can be done.

But that's not to say it can't be done. And then pretty soon they're over at Apple saying, listen, you know, you guys dragged your heels on this other thing and it turned out you can do it. And now, hey, we've got another dead terrorist, another phone. And it's a slightly more expensive phone. And I don't know, make it work. or we're going to put some weird export regulations on you and you won't be able to sell phones in China anymore, right? Right.

Well, I mean, I think that's a thing. So this is, I made no headway on CNBC. I was like, Apple has a billion customers. They have a billion active devices. I message sends 200, like, this is a disaster. If they weaken their software and then it cracks, then everybody can do this. So here's the other weird thing, right?

So everyone's sort of worried. about the precedent and like what comes next. And so one of the next orders could be like, okay, break to secure an enclave phone, right? Because it doesn't seem really, you wouldn't feel that safe if you were Tim Cook and be like, okay, but like just this one. But then the other thing that could happen is they say, listen, we keep coming back to you every week to like crack someone's phone. You know, we've got a lot of these DEA's arresting all these people.

Like we've got a whole government that's arresting people and trying to look in their phones. And clearly we have the right to do this. So maybe just make one without the specific phone. and we can just apply it ourselves and we won't have to keep coming back to you, at which point that piece of software becomes incredibly dangerous, like if it ever got out, because there's a huge world full of people who steal iPhones, and they're really interested in ways to unlock phones.

And so if something like this that had a little bit less of a protection ever got out, that would be really bad. And maybe the protection stay in place, but someone finds a zero day or someone finds like some clever hack that wouldn't otherwise have been a big deal. But then you already have this. And then pretty soon, you know, you're buying like locked phones for 50 bucks and unlocking them in like a warehouse and Bushwick somewhere and selling them for 500. What if like you made it to that story? Yeah, exactly. Once you get, you know, once you say, okay, here's the back door, whatever it is or here's the exception to the rule, whatever it is.

There's a slippery slope. It might get out. or somebody might figure out a better method. But I mean, could you say, like, here's the way it could be done, but it requires an enormous investment of time or money or computation. Yeah. Well, I mean, the FBI is willing to pay them. So it's only the FBI or somebody else would find it worthwhile, right?

It wouldn't be worthwhile if you're just stealing iPhones because it requires. Well, yeah, you wouldn't be able to like, like, you know, you'd have to hire someone really good who would want to do something legal. Right. I mean, one assumes. Who knows? Maybe it's already out there, but, but yeah, so once it's built, then it's just kind of this this gun on the table right like it can this it's just like the

watchman I don't know once you build the nuke then people have nukes yeah I mean I just think they should break the phone wait except you don't think that I don't I mean I think the encryption debate and you've been covering it it's like yeah it's back it's back in this weird way where it was like around in the 90s and it was around in the early 2000s and the tech geeks have always one. I mean, they basically always won. Here's the other weird thing is right now all of the pressure in this has basically come

from the FBI DAs and like some judges, right? The judge who signed the order incidentally used to be a DA. I mean, not that that's a scandal in any way, but it's like, yeah, like, and

we saw like some weird bills in the New York and California legislature that were like explicitly lobbied for by DAs. And like the desire for something like this within law enforcement is very, very strong. But once you get outside of law enforcement, and this is also like as this case moves to appeals and maybe gets appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and we get kind of further from the grunt level like, I am putting people in handcuffs every day and need to like make a case to put this guy in jail because he obviously did it. Like once you get farther from that, I wonder how

strong the appetite for it continues to be. There was a great comment thread that I was reading through that was basically saying in the 1990s when we would have these meetings with the military and the people who were thinking about cybersecurity, they basically said to the private sector, you need to do a better job of figuring this stuff out so we don't fall behind our enemies. And now we did a really good job. And law enforcement is saying, you did too good of a job. You have to like turn this around and like give us a way in.

Well, and I mean, the security problems in the federal government, like just within like not getting hacked by China are like pretty severe, I feel like probably you could come up with a situation that made everyone unhappy where like, in fact, citizens have zero rights and also the federal government has really good and secure tools. Like that world's probably possible. So I never want to like prosecute that case too aggressively. I just, I mean, I just think I'm first of all, I think Apple's going to lose. Like to be really clear, this is the thing. Well, they're going to lose they're going to lose in this case in this no but like like on appeal or something well i mean they've already lost right the judge told them to do it they're going to appeal and they're going to lose

again like they're just going to keep i don't i just don't see the united states justice system what coming down in favor of don't crack this phone and i also think i don't see the united states public saying oh you should definitely keep the phone protected i think a lot of people There's another million cases where you want Apple to be able to unlock a phone for you. Like, if a loved one dies, and you don't know that that's good. Like, I think a lot of people have the reasonable expectation that Apple should be able to unlock that phone. That's why you put that in your will so that they know. Right.

No, there's a whole set of services that lawyers provide. Like, estate lawyers. There's a whole thing where it's like, you give me a USB key with all your passwords and some instructions and then you die and, like, I plug it in, and I delete your Ashley Madison account. Like, this is a thing that people do now. You know what the greatest USB key of all times? time is. The one that has my Ashley Madison account on it. That is worth a lot to me as someone who works for you. That what was the article? It was in Wired. The more where they were like, oh, this is

the guy who invented Bitcoin. This guy is really Satoshi or whatever, whatever. Yeah. But there is like a, you know, small USB thumb drive that that guy wore around his neck, which probably has a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin on it. Probably. That he just carried around with them all the time and took up into the grave. Wait, which Satoshi was this. The most recent one. And then there was like an American guy who he worked with. I feel like I wouldn't. You can snatch. necklaces, right? Chain snatching is like a thing. That's why he never took it off and he worked and that's why... Do you know that Russell, I don't know if you guys have happened.

But there's like a, we've just quietly started a video series with Russell where he reenacts crimes. No. Yeah. So the first video is up. It's called like the... Neelai has to say that I'm reenacting them for legal reasons, but I'm committing crimes. It's the evil maid attack. Oh yeah, yeah. He like shot a video where like Russell... I was the victim. Ben was the victim. And it's like, this is how an evil maid would, like, rob your computer. What does this have to do with The Verge?

It sounds like a hobby. It's Russell doing computer crimes. Computer crimes are supervergy. Oh, computer crimes. I was thinking chain snatching up the subway. Computer crimes are still cool, though. The last episode is like how to get rid of a body. Yeah.

In that same comment thread about, you know, the one that was like, well, the military told us to make encryption so strong. And now law enforcement is all in our case. They had this awesome, like, Ocean's 11 type thing about how you would get past the secure element. And, like, when they make it, they blow the, fuses at the factory, but you could re-sodder those and flash them. And it's just like, I'm thinking like Ocean's 11, you know, like go into the phone and you're like trying to do all this crazy

hardware stuff. Every time they, they talk about breaking this phone, I imagine a large room with a huge machine in the center with like a glass window with a lightning cable coming out of it. And that's the one machine that can crack the phone. And it's like, that's what they want though. That's what's so weird. That's like, that is actually what they're talking about. And like, there's like a team of like Russian hackers and Chinese hackers are like breaking in through the vents and crawling through the ducks. And they're trying to get. in the room and like plug in the one phone. It's actually like Johnny Ives DNA.

You have to take like a cheek sample and then decode that. Yeah. The code word is aluminium. Here's a walk up to the thing and say aluminum. Like the glass door opens. Steam begins rising. This is what I worry is that like there are a lot of movies where security gets broken. Like they break in and they don't.

They like get away with the thing. Yeah. In Mission Impossible and like everyone loves a good heist. There's none of them where they're like, nope. We couldn't do it. We couldn't get into that vault. It was just, you know, that guy was responsible, and he thought of the important things.

Yeah, he followed best practices. So, yeah, there's nothing we can do. Sorry, boss, it was two-factor. Leave our lives of crime, yeah. Nicola, do you think they should break the phone? Oh, man. Gut instinct. Do you think they should break the phone?

It doesn't matter what you say. Just say what's in your heart. I really don't want to. to go on, I don't want to. You think they should break the phone? Most maintain objectivity. Well, okay. Becky's answer, like, emailing her yesterday, like, do they think,

Neil I think, does Nealai think they should break the phone? Because we, they're like, generally virgin employees' parents, like, like, the older generation, I've heard a number of stories where people are like, yeah, hmm. Just break the phone. One third of the time you say, Becky, I think of office Becky. Yeah. Becky's aunts.

Becky. Our office manager's extended families routinely emailing me. I mean. About encryption management. That's why I was like, but okay, let me just point out, before we leave this entirely,

just my counterpoint. Oh, God. Down the wrong pipe? No, I thought about office, Becky's answer. Eli's choking on white wine right now. Gosh,

it was really funny for one second. It's 5.06 p. Because they're also from Wisconsin. Yeah. So you could all just mix it together. Me too. You know, we could all be in the mixed.

Oh, it was really bad. But okay, so the counterpoint. And this is a point that like it's very difficult to say absolutely for sure. Yeah. But it's pretty clear. There is nothing on the phone. Like they're not going to find anything.

Oh yeah, he burned all the other phones. Yeah, so he burned these other phones. This was his work phone, which like is legally convenient. But it also means like if he needs to make contact with like the ISIS like puppet master who doesn't exist. He's probably not going to call from the work phone. He had opportunities to burn it when he. burned the other phones, it was backing up to ICloud until like a couple weeks before

the event. So like all the stuff that was backed up on ICloud they have, because it's on the servers and they just give them a warrant and then Apple hands it over. So like there's really nothing on the phone. Oh, you should write that story. But I don't, I mean, I can't prove that.

I don't know. Maybe they find out. But Apple routinely hands things over from I cloud because of the third party doctrine. Yeah, totally. No, all of our stuff is, this was part of my, this was one of the five big lies of the encryption debate. You should write this story. I'm going to tell the audience with the story. None of you out there write this story, because Russell's going to write it first. The third party doctrine is...

Oh, my God. He's getting into legal presence. I'm going to do it. The third party doctrine is this weird exception to the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure. Smith v. Maryland, yeah. Where if a third party, you send your data to a third party, you no longer have any reasonable expectation of privacy in that data. And the government can come and search it. So all of your iCloud is stored in a third party, obviously, it's Apple.

So the government can just, they don't even have to talk to you. They just issue a warrant to Apple. And the law says you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in what you sent to iCloud. So Apple can just hand it over. It's the same with Google, it's the same with Dropbox, same Microsoft, just down the line. Anything that you transfer it to a third party is no longer within the scope of your Fourth Amendment productions. So whatever they want on this phone is only something that's stored locally on the phone. Nothing. The cloud is already wide away.

I don't think they want anything on this phone. This is Russell's point. They just have a terrorist with an iPhone that Apple can definitely break, and they want to prove that the law gives them the power to break the phone. But yeah, so this whole argument from the beginning is just like stuff that's on your iPhone and nowhere else, right? Which, again, if you want to know who he called, who he texted, talk to Verizon. Right. Like.

This would only be notes that he kept for himself. The only thing they can't get is his unethonel. messages because those are encrypted end-to-end. So presumably if he's like, ISIS forever and his eye message. Yeah, it seems like a dumb terrorist move to be like eye messaging about plans. I'm not going to work so.

Let me just shoot off some I messages about the big plans. Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hang on, Teresa. I'll send you that spreadsheet in a minute. You gotta send these ISIS text messages. What? I don't know.

If you worked in the government office and sort of San Bernardina, I wouldn't use six facts? Everyone around you was like, let me get the spreadsheets. No? That's just what I've never had a real job. Let's be clear.

All right. Is there anything else to say about this? You think they should break the phone. I mean, I feel like I don't know if I have enough information to really say that. Yeah. But so I wouldn't put my... I think most people believe in their hearts. Not in this case that Apple should break the phone.

That if they forget their passcode or somebody passes away and they get that phone, that they should be able to walk in an Apple store. and prove that their significant other die whatever bad thing happened i forgot it's my phone i can prove it here's a receipt and apple should have knocked that phone for them here's the other question that's kind of interesting and i think like we have very skewed views of this but like in all seriousness do people in general who don't read tech blogs like apple yeah like that's well and like how much like is it like a eight or a nine or like what because because that's the question people don't like the FBI historically no they do I think regular people are like yeah they're the cool ones

people hate cops they don't they they they think like the FBI the CIA the NSA they're like ooh maybe that's right those are the guys with the cooler but like I do think I mean now this isn't going to be they drive they drive all black Crown Victoria's and they have sunglasses it's great um I mean I don't know the thing is it'll be decided by a judge who will probably not have like have somewhat different opinions in this but I think there is I can imagine a world in which people are like tired of terrorism being exploited for political gain which has kind of like we're sort of at the point where we can acknowledge that that's happened have you been watching this election I don't know what you're talking about yeah no I mean uh yeah no but

don't Trump's out there you know I think that Becky's ants or Becky's ants which either set of Becky's hands are unlikely unlikely to make their smartphone purchasing decisions based on this case, no matter which way it goes. I mean, like, we have people who are very principled about it because it's a terrorist. But I don't think like six months from now, they're like, I'm getting an Android. Like, screw Apple.

They didn't do what I thought they should do. People listening to this show, though. Will. Yeah, no matter what we say. It doesn't matter. Right. They have strong opinions. You know, it's sad because Windows phone is the most secure. But while operating system involved.

Because nobody used it. It's never been cracked because no one cared. All right. Let's move on to the next. Speaking of Windows. Speaking of Windows. I did a story this week. Yeah, I did. It was all about Chromebooks, which you recently purchased for your family. I'm deep in the Chromebook game. I'm like, I'm a believer. And it's funny. I have a lot of, but you keep going. I have a lot of thoughts. So it was just about how lots and lots of schools have lots of hardware that has basically turned into Cruft. They stopped using it. You have to

imagine these windows, laptops that get passed around a school where 20 different people use it. And within six months, it's so full of viruses and adware that, like, it takes 15 minutes to boot up. So they would, like, abandon these. And then somebody came in and said, look, you could just convert that into a Chromebook, not technically one, because that's a trademark. But a machine that runs Chrome. And all of a sudden, it boots up in a minute or 30 seconds. And it's easy to pass around. Like, anybody can log into it.

And suddenly, like, they're in. It's their account. So it was a little bit about this startup in New York, Neverwhere that let schools convert them. And then it was also largely about the fact that, like, in 2012, I think Google had less than 1% of the market in terms of new devices sold. And now they outsell Microsoft and Apple together. They outsell every other – 51% of all new devices bought in education are Chromebooks. That's crazy. It's crazy.

So, yeah, just, you know, the cloud computing revolution at work. And the question I think that remains is, like, how much stuff is there really left that, like, requires a computer that isn't just a netbook? Like are we going to get to a point where 75% of devices, 90% of the devices bought? And as a company, we're kind of already at that point, right? Yeah. At least me as a reporter, not our video editors, but I could come in every day and work on a Chromebook. I left my laptop at home one day and Dieter gave me a Chromebook and I did my whole job. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I did my whole job. I'm going to, I have an old MacBook. But part of your job is, like, going out in the world and, like, doing things. Yeah, but also I am like not, there are people on my team who save things to their real computer. And I'm like, why? do you save things to your computer? We have Google Docs.

Yeah. And Dropbox and like all this stuff. Why are we, why are you sending me a file? Why isn't it in Dropbox? Yeah. There are hurdles. There are real hurdles.

It's not the verge. You got to drag people with you. Yeah. You got to bring them along. We're talking about a new edit calendar system and it is going to be. Really? No, I'm very interested. I mean, is it Trello?

Is it Trello with dates? It's just Google Calendar. Oh, it's just Google. It's moving from a text document to a calendar. and it will not be seamless. It will not. Don't use Google Calendar for that. What should we do?

Use Trello with dates, with dates on the cards. We've tried Trello and... Yeah, do it. Trello. Trello, the only company that matters. We don't have ads on the show today, so... Kindness.

Just talk one out. Findness. If anyone, Falk Creek Software wants to throw me a couple bucks, Trello, just fucking use it. Venmo has $10 and will shell anything you want. Anything you want. They don't want to be a separate. associated now that you sided with the government.

I know. Trello, you should break your encryption. Everyone should see the RACs editorial calendar. Now in Trello. I was talking to, but you were talking about the calendar, right? I was talking to our stalwart Microsoft reporter, Tom Warren. And I was talking about this story because, like, you know, what's Microsoft doing to try and not, like, lose?

This is like a serious existential threat to them, right? Like, you lose all the K-12 schools and then all of a sudden, like, most of the, you know, businesses are like, well, we wouldn't mind spending 70%, you know, 70% less on our IT. That sounds pretty okay. And he was like, oh, well, you know, kids will use Chromebooks in the beginning, but then they get to high school and they have to do spreadsheets. And then they'll really need a Windows machine. And I thought, what the fuck?

That's your example of some, like, really high-powered, you know, activity that requires, like, a serious Windows machine with, like, a solid-state drive and all this. You know, it's like, spreadsheets? What are you talking about? Yeah, that's all you know. Well, I also wonder, I mean, it's funny because I always look at, like, adware as, like, a story and sort of think about it. And, like, what does it mean that,

there's all this crap out there that just piles up on machines. And it really is sort of Windows as an ecosystem has just been out there for long enough and fragmented in such a way that it's hard to really keep that stuff from proliferating. And it gets to a point where it's a problem for Microsoft as a company now. Because they can just switch to Chromebooks. And Chromebooks, it's like a shiny new operating system that's got like, you know, is a little bit of you. No, I think there's actually a huge, crazy market here. Just go with me on this. For sick old computers running this Neverware version. It's just called Cloud Ready, right?

Oh, yeah. It's a Neverware. So, like, I might buy a titanium power book and put, oh, wait, I can't because that's PowerPC. This is like those old cars. Do they run on PowerPC or just Intel processors? I know. They run on many different kinds of very common. I'm betting they don't run on PowerPC chips. I'll have to find out. If they make a version of Cloud Ready that runs in the PowerPCG4, and I can put that shit on a titanium power book, do you remember that thing? Yeah, this is going to be the fastest Chromebook of all time.

No, well, because that thing was ancient. I think came out in 2001. Doesn't matter. Yeah, but like that was... Even a 10-year-old computer has crazy hardware coverage on your Chromebook. I challenge the audience. Tell me what is the sickest old laptop you can put this... You can put Chrome OS on.

This is like the Fast and Furious garage of computers, where you're like, yeah, I've had this Chromebook since 72. What's the coolest laptop you can think of? The one I have. Oh, God. That thing is like, the MacBook Air, where's your Matrix? It's like, where's the one that's like, where's the section labeled like obvious? Drab and practical.

No, drag and practical. So the MacBook Air is drab practical now. It's like over. I think it's elegant practical. Nah, it's just like everyone has one. Yeah, but it's still elegant. So looks, you know, it's clean. Can you be elegant if everybody has it?

So, but Nilai. It's not about being. exclusive, Eli. I think elegance implies a level of exclusivity. No. No? No. Okay. Well, then you and I disagree on our completely subjective definitions of Eleanor. I'm in the

comments on the YouTube live thing and believe me, there are a lot of follow of questions about the Matrix. I had to tell Jared to chill, but like, it's good. Yeah, you dropped some F-bombs on the Twitter when people are sending you the gaming life. By the way,

thank you to the audience for immediately tweeting gaming mice. I like the people who sent me pictures of mice on actual mice. Gaming controllers. That was the best. Like cute animals? That's pretty good. I guess so what's the sickest laptop you would put? Because this is a whole thing right? If you are the sort of just think about this. I want everybody clear their mind. You're the sort of person who can get your life accomplished inside of Chrome OS. Suddenly you are free from the boundaries of time and space when it comes computing hardware.

Yeah. You don't longer need the newest one. You can just literally pick the one that looks the dopest. And I'm saying to me that is the titanium powerbook. Like if I just rolled into a meeting with that thing, people are like, what is that? I'd be like, this is the sickest laptop ever made. And I'm using it right now. And then they're like, oh, let me send you this spreadsheet.

And I'm like, oh, I'm foiled by another high school student. Yeah, exactly. Why am I always talking to high school seniors? So, but that's the crazy thing is that there is like 10 years worth of laptops and all of this horsepower and hardware that is like thrown on the junk pile, which suddenly you could resurrect and people could use. And when this guy in Ovid, L.C., Michigan, an hour outside of Flint, like the middle of nowhere, saw the school doing that, he literally opened up a store now where he sells like, he takes junk laptops that people pay him to take because you have to pay to recycle them. Yeah. Because they're full of lead. Turns them into their Chromebooks and then sells them to people.

He has like a Chromebook store. This is amazing. Nothing but recycle computers. Can we go to the store? I'd have pitched it as a follow-up. The Chromebooks. And it's just a dope old laptops. It's just dope old laptops.

Yes. Laptops are back. Right. It's like a 1950s car that has an engine that's too big. This is really like, this is like the Mad Max cars. It's like society has ended. All we have is this Corvette on Tank Treads. And it looks incredibly junky, but like, I, there's this guy sort of playing guitar on the back

of it and I like it. It's Cromo West. It's Cromo West. No, this is awesome. I'm going to do this and this is like my weekend, you know, nerd project. Yeah, we're actually going to, we're going to do like an explainer video how to do it. Oh my God. Someone sent me a picture of the Deladono.

Literally, I remember when we reviewed the Delodon. I think we reviewed it at Engadgett. Like Josh's last line was Dell should really consider why it decided to make this product. It's like he has no reason that this should exist. We have like 10 minutes left. I want to talk about drones because I know you had a blast using one. I did. I encouraged you to take it and it seems like you went above and beyond everything I dreamed you would do with it.

I love drones. Yes. They're the coolest. So I took the Phantom 3 professional out of our few closet, so I have to give it back. Yes. Yeah, I got fairly good at flying it. You know when you learn how to do something, but it is outside the boundaries of like other people teaching you, you just develop what you believe are the right ways to do something.

Right. Does this make any sense? You got better. You don't know if you were working with Breast Practices, but you were doing it. You're self-taught. I was like, here are the best practices. So I have all these ideas about how the drone should fly. None of them, I'm assuming, are right.

But I was so afraid to fly it at the beginning. I was like terrified that, like, Becky, the one I'm married to, not the one who works in this office. She was, like, leaving for the day on a Saturday. And she's like, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'm going to do. I'm going to go outside and fly the hell of that drone. And then she came back and I was like still in the kitchen watching YouTube videos without how to fly the drone.

Because I was like, I'm going to kill someone. Like basically it's flying death. But here's the thing about the drone. You went from being really afraid to fly it, feeling you're getting pretty good, to doing something really stupid where you attached a lot of extra hardware and used it at a wedding. Yeah, I was like tying string to it and like flew it into a wedding. Yeah, the most dangerous thing possible. Yeah, it's funny.

Once you know, the CR48 Chromebook is not the dopest laptop I've ever made. It is, it looks amazing. Sorry, I was supposed to be to me. It looks amazing, the CR 48, but it is the slowest piece of junk ever. But that's because it wasn't running Chrome. It was running Chrome OS. It was the first ChromeOS device. But it looked amazing because I had no branding.

It was just like a totally matte black object. Like no branding, no divets, no nothing. Love it. Sounds elegant as hell. It was super exclusive. It's a thing that I'm saying about elegance. I think elegance implies. implies like a slight level of like it's just one tick it's just one tick above the mainstream do

I mean yeah it's like it's not a lot it's just it's more thoughtful than what everyone else has that's like a it's a gloss it's got a gloss to yeah and the MacBook air has not the MacBook air is literally standard standard issue yeah it was elegant when it came out but now that elegance has been rubbed off by the fact that it's like normal yeah yeah right it's like part of a larger It's like Eagle songs are really elegant, but you've heard them so many times that they sound kind of chinty. Yeah. Eagle songs are elegant? Yeah. I think we just had the ultimate Ben Popper Dad moment on the version. I got so dead at out last night. I was watching this Eagles documentary, and I was like,

I hate all of these songs, but yet right now is a 32-year-old watching a documentary about the Eagles rise to fame, I find myself loving them. I had this moment. So let me tell you three stories about the Eagles. That's my new podcast. It's three stories about the Eagles with Nilai Patel. and I just bring in guests and we just talk about the Eagles. At CES, I was sitting in, I believe it was the Volvo booth. It was a crazy, like $100,000 Volvo SUV for like the soccer mom with a side hustle, right? Yeah. She's a soccer.

She's like weeds, yeah. It's like basically, didn't she? Or no, I don't remember. No, she drove a crap car for a long time. Anyway, but it's basically like if you're the mom in weeds, like you're doing all right. But you also sell all of the weed in your local community. So it's like this car, it has a screen that comes up out of the thing. And I push the button and the screen comes up.

And it's just a DVD of the Eagles live, like, Hotel California. And it was like sounded beautiful. Like beautiful sound system in this car. 400 speakers, subwifers everywhere. Your kids are wearing their own wireless headphones listening to their own shit in the backseat. But you're just, you're just captivated, driving down the street. watching the Eagles. Soaring.

And it's like, you can check out but you can never leave. And I was like, this is the ultimate CES moment. That's what's happening now. Second Eagle story.

Another Hotel California story. Okay. I love how you had three queued up. That's right. Hotel California has been a real theme with me lately. We are in the Dominican Republic

for Deter's wedding. We're like in the pool. Great. The Biggers were. And the staff is there. And they're like, we can play some pool games. Everybody got ready.

Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. Right? And we're like, no, we're not doing that. Old bitties in the pool love playing pool games with the staff. So they're all like getting over there. And they, I didn't realize this. It took, look, we're drinking all day. They started Hotel California, but then they looped it in Serrato.

So I listened to the first, you know, four or eight bars of Hotel California for easily 10 minutes. Wow. And I kept on, I was, like, all day. So I kept on being like, da-da-da-da, it didn't happen. Like over and over and over it. Right. Anyway, I don't have a third Hotel California. I mean, I do, but...

I think it's been enough. I think the third one is like one time I listened to it and I thought it was rad. Like, that's basically... Do you have a Hotel California story? No. I defy you to watch... Go and watch this documentary on Netflix. Where does Hotel California go on the hype matrix?

I feel like that's ostentatious drag. You think so? Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm like playing it in my head from his own. Don Henley. Where does Don Henley go in Hype Matrix? I don't know who that is.

Oh, my God. You know Glenn Fry, obviously. No. Oh, my God. Wow. It is ostentatious. That's why I loved it. Like, if you, I defy you to go watch this Netflix documentary, see them in studio working

on witchy woman and not laugh at them, but also with joy. Like, it's just so 70s. Everything about it is like, these guys are the cheesiest, but they didn't know it. And so it's pure. Because they invented it. Right. Exactly. It's like slash.

Right. Slash and Guns and Roses is. everything he did is now like a cartoon right what was that band that played during the grammies the johnny dep was in vampire hotel what the hell is it called oh yeah doctor zombie like that's a terrible name and it's like that's like a pastiche of like 80s glamour act bands but when slash was doing he was inventing that shit right he was like what if i grow my hair long and just constantly do heroin and like hammerons and that's my stick and everyone's like brand new idea and now and then it becomes

comes a joke. What if I wear no shirt, leather pants in this belt of circles? Man, slash, everybody. I did it. I feel like that's what Kanye is going to be. Like, he's going to do all this whack shit, and then it's going to create some culture, and then it's going to become a joke. He's going to create some culture.

I think he might have jumped the shark already. I don't think so. I was worried that after Jesus, I was like maybe we're into late Kanye now, but I think actually we're still in the prime Kanye era. You think so? Yeah, I mean, I think like life of politics. Pablo like not maybe like absolutely his best but like I was like okay we're not in late Kanye yet I haven't listened to you yet oh it's awesome I don't have title um I did the three

month trial just for it okay first you just mumbled that Micah can pirate this album for me which is useful and wonderful information you you sign up for the title what do you think a title three month thing well all I did was listen to that once this is like The era that we live in where you sign up for streaming music service once for every exclusive, and then you have like 17. Well, I went on Hot New Hip Hop. I went on SoundCloud. Couldn't find it.

My friend sent me the zip thing to whatever. And I couldn't figure it out and I had to go. I'd be somewhere. So I signed. I was like, all right, title. Let's do that. I had like three minutes. I was like, let me see if I can do this in like three minutes.

Yeah. Sign up with the PayPal, set the calendar alert so I can cancel that. And done. And I listened to it. What do you think? I don't love it. Yeah. a fucking mess.

I also had heard it. I went to the album. Well, also, I heard wolves a year ago at the passion show. I was like, oh my God, what the fuck? Obviously, I heard no more parties. And what else did he just put out? 30 hours?

30 hours was like on soundcloth like the day before. But it was a lot less than out. No, no, no, no. But everyone keeps sending me the IBM think pad butterfly keyboard laptop. Yo. I'm just saying get ready. That thing's in a MoMA.

Really? Yeah, IBM made this think pad. It's like in the 90s. There's a butterfly keyboard where it's really small and when you open the lid, the keyboard raised up and butterflyed out. So it became a full-size keyboard deck.

I mean, it was literally one of the coolest things ever made. It's in the moment. It's the Eagles of laptops. What? You like the Eagles? It's fine. I don't like the Eagles.

I have a number of stories about the Eagles to tell. It's all right. It's all right. He's ostentatious, elegant. Yeah, really? I think so. I mean, he's maybe closer to the center.

Did you play the Kylie Kendall game? No, but I stood over Caitlin Tiffany's shoulder while she played it, and she showed me that Kylie keeps putting on her lipstick. And then I showed her two photos. Well, whatever. That's a whole other story. Oh, really? I can die on the hill of the Eagles.

You won't finish your Kylie Jenner story? Kylie and I spent three days last week together. The first was Monday, and it was the Kylie and Kendall Collection launch. And we stood very close to each other and had many pictures. What does she smell like? You know what? You're not the first person to ask me that. What's the thing?

I know what she looks like. Well, the number one thing I noticed is that we have the same nervous tick where we run our nails under our nails. Like she wasn't wearing big nails. She had like little regular dark black painted nails. And she was like running her, when she was giving interviews, like there's like a whole lineup of press interviews. And she was like running her fingernails under them. And I was like, oh, I do that too. You're so nervous.

Yeah. Oh, your life's horrible. So I had all those pictures of her. then two days later I saw her at the V-Files show, and she was wearing a lace, see-through lace jumpsuit, but her butt was so much bigger than it had been on Monday. But it was a see-through lace jumpsuit. So it was like if there's padding or whatever is going on there, it's see-through. So like, I'm just perplexed. So they spent a while looking at the photos I took and the new photos. This is actually, that was really helpful because I came into the kitchen

and heard that discussion. Yeah. But I didn't know who you were talking about. I thought it was somebody at work. And then she showed up on Wednesday in a see-through lace jumpsuit and I swear her butt was so a trigger. And then I saw her again at a Kanye's thing on Thursday the next day. Oh, how was it Connie thing? Give us the two minute rundown. Oh my God.

It was weird. Madison Square Garden was not full. The layout was strange. I was like sitting in the, I was in section 105. The Kardashians were in section 106. Like we were right next to each other. There was no, it was all very mellow and like low key. he played the album he didn't like perform it he just played it like listening what did he do while he was listening

he played it from his laptop and like he would get an email and you would hear the notification it was super weird although there's also a phone notification sound in one of the songs which people are no that's in the riana there's in a riana song the i message sound no no in 30 hours at the end he's just like there's like and then she called my phone and like just in a weird ad lib part at the end and and the like marimba iPhone rings. Best ring though. Best of the default rings. The weird thing about that show is like he's so happy. He forced the models to suffer. They had to stand on stage. They couldn't dance. They couldn't smile. They couldn't sit down. And he was jamming out to the music. Oh, so he was dancing. And they were like just suffering on stage. It was like, why are you making them do? Like,

let's all have fun at your album release party. But like they're models. I mean, they got paid. They looked very unhappy. Alexa. Play Hotel California on Spotify. And we're out. I'm just putting that. You can't play Life of Pablo on Spotify, so don't even ask her. Yeah. Oh my God. Spotify on Alexa has changed my life.

Really? Tell me about it because I'm really close to buying the thing. Dude, get in there. Should I just do it? Just do it. I loved Alexa before because I wouldn't, I didn't know what was going to come on. And I would just be like, Alexa play ex-artist and it would be random, whatever Amazon has. Now, Amazon has nothing.

And they have nothing. And so then you would find these weird songs. You'd be like off period. Wrong decade. Oh, I didn't know this. Oh, this is my favorite Eagles. jam? But I've never heard it before, so it sounds good. I like to hear things for the first time. Oh, it's just so elegant. Yeah. This Glenn Frye guitaring is so, he was a guitar player, no?

Yeah, yeah, he was a guitar player. I love a good guitar noodle. Glenn Frye was the guitar player, then they had another one and they felt they needed two more. We've talked about the Eagles too much. Okay. I'm just, I'm putting it down. Like, we're like one step away from talking about rush. So the Flying Burrito Brothers, oh my God, before the Eagles. We're so done. Yeah, I mean, Alexa is the bomb. I would recommend getting her. I love her as a music experience. I love being able to just shout out.

I'm like wrestling with my kids on the floor and then I'm like, hey, play this. And it just happens. I've been calling Uber's with it because that is a single most decadent thing you can possibly do in your life. Alexa, ask Uber for a ride. That's ostentatious elegant for sure. Yeah, it is the best. And then she's like, there's an Uber. Did it that way?

And then when you're like, and she's like, would you like me call it for you? You say yes. and then it makes a spaceship sound until the Uber's coming. What does that sound like? It's like, ooh, ooh. It's like, are you going to take off? No, it's like a couple of seconds. It's not a long time.

Oh, while it's pinging it. Well, until an Uber driver says yes. I thought you meant right the whole time it was coming. It just keeps kind of like, but it's like sometimes it's like, and it's like this is all the spaceship stuff that I want in my house. Like I just asked a car, I asked a robot to bring me a car and it made a spaceship sound. And it said, it's all happening. It's all fucking happening.

And I was like, I love you. Right. And then you say, play the life of Pablo, get in the car, and it's already playing. Yeah, yeah, you could do that. Well, you can have the Spotify on the car. That is elegant. Nicholas, someone's sending you pictures of track balls. Track balls.

What do they fall on your, on your manager? Dude. I don't. I think we know the answer to that. You need a secondary, like, matrix of crappy things. Is this the gift of the butterfly keyboard that I'm getting here? Yes. Look at that thing.

That's pretty gorgeous. That is a triumph of hardware engineering. Okay, well, we got our answer then. All right. This is the Chromebook you need. This is the Chromebook you need. Can we get one of those and try to put Chrome OS on it and see if it's fast and awesome? And then that will be my main computer.

We have to get an old computer for it to make this video. So let's get this one. Everybody, okay, here's what I want you to do. Everybody listen to me. The three of you in this room and hundreds of thousands of people on their cars. Millions, millions, millions of nerds. Angry nerds who are mad that we. talked about was it Kylie or Kendall's butt.

Yo. What? It's Kylie's. You read no news. Come on. Oh my God. You said you saw them both. I know, but whose butt has been a topic of conversation said summer.

I have no idea. Yeah. Oh, my God. Let me ask you. This is like my version of you being like, which laptop? And I'm like, I only know one laptop. We were chill when you didn't know that members of the Eagles. We were totally fine with it.

is a more difficult engineering challenge building a back door into the iPhone that keeps the operating system secure or see-through lace jumpsuit that does not reveal the padding that makes the butt bigger. It's a lot of engineering going on in both elements.

Back doors happening. Real secure element joke. Wow. Real secure element joke just waiting for us for it. Anyway, that, unfortunately, is how the show will end. Bye. Goodbye, everybody. No, you have to do all the social stuff. You got to do all the social. So, tweet at us. Nicola underscore Fumo on Twitter, Russell Brandem, I'm Reckless, Ben Popper.

Just hit us up. Tell us what dope laptop, particularly me and Ben, tell us what dope laptop from the past we should put Cloud Ready on, because that is a project I am deeply interested in. We're on Snapchat. We're at Virge on Snapchat. We're at Verge on YouTube. SoundCloud. Oh, and if you're curious about any of the encryption issues, we just put up a what's

tech on encryption. with me and Christopher Thomas Plant. There was actually recorded before the country started falling apart, but, well, not that long ago. Anyway, a couple weeks ago, but it covers a lot of the same territory. Yes, important. Listen to that. Emily and Liz have Virg ESP.

Walt and I have Control Walt Delete. Lauren Good has too embarrassed to ask. Peter Kafka launched a new podcast yesterday at Code Media, called Recode Media. We do have a fleet. We have a fleet. We're addicted to podcasts. And then Kara Swisher has Rico decode,

which is the only podcast name that rhymes. Okay, Russell, we got to get on this. We need a podcast. Please don't do that to me. No more. Casts. Look, you can just listen to shit all day long. Okay, just go to iTunes, find our stuff,

give it all five stars, listen to it nonstop. And then, I don't know, find us on Facebook, hit the like button, hit the YouTube's, get down. Somebody, you know, just for shits and giggles. Everybody just tweet at Sam Shephyr. Just do that. Just do that right now. Okay.

Stop by the Mashable office. Say hi. That's it. Goodbye, everybody. We'll see you next week.