The Vergecast - Helmets Are the Future

Episode Date: May 1, 2015

It's been an action-packed week in tech, and we're here to keep the adrenaline pumping. Micah Singleton and TC Sottek join Nilay Patel and Sam Sheffer to reflect on daily life with Apple Watch, the leather backed LG G4, the future of HoloLens, and what exactly Hadoop is, anyway. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to the Vergecast for the week of whatever week it is, the week of April 27th. Sorry, here once again, I'm supposed to say we're recording this on April 30th, but for years what we've done is say it's the week of whatever. And I still don't know which one people prefer. Hello, this is the Vergecast. It's a show about The Verge. Today, it will mostly be a show about Windows 10. Let's be honest. I am Nilai Patel.

I am joined by Micah Singleton. Yeah. Yeah. T.C. And I got Sammy in the Hyped desk. Hey. Yeah, this shot is, oh, man, this needs work. What is happening?

We didn't test the shot beforehand because I was paroscoping, but it was worth the periscope. I will say that Sam, in an effort to be thirsty on every platform possible, literally, before the show began, was in the control room, periscoping John, clicking a button on a computer that makes the stream go live. I'm getting tweets right now. And then he ran. from the control room into the studio sat down in time for me to say Sammy in the hype desk and then do that. The thirst is real, to be commended in many ways.

But anyway, this is the Vergecast. I'm excited here here. Dieter is on vacation, a well-deserved vacation. Kind of. Dieter sucks at being on vacation. Yeah, he's always on Twitter. He has, no, he's, he's in Slack with me, he's texting me. He sent me a random email about the LGG4 a couple of

days ago, like during the event. He's like, make sure we get review units. And I was like, yes, Deeter, it's my first day. But he can't help it. God, God bless him, but he's on vacation. Ziggy is in San Francisco looking at a four. Are we calling him Ziggy now? I don't call him Ziggy for years. I'm not down with that. Well, as soon as we started my new policy of only hiring people named Chris, they all need different names, that's what you do. That's how you torment people name Chris. You all bring them into one organization and then you give them, you assign them nicknames.

Sure. I think we should call them chat. After a legendary Canadian singer Chad Kroger. I'm done with this nickel back name. I have to say this is the least. Let me just give some backstory here. The people at the verge are not funny. Some of them are. Some of them are. But sometimes

they find a joke that is so profoundly unfunny and disturbing. and then take it to even more profoundly disturbing on funny levels. For example, Nickelback is just a piece of our lives here at the verge now. Chad Groger appears. I will say that if you have the proper permissions on the verge, you can change user pictures at will at the back end of the system. Many of our authors have turned into Chad Kroger over time.

Very disturbing. Also, Nickelback should be just outlawed. As a nation, I think we should. should as Americans be allowed to say that we don't want to go back within our borders. I'm with you. All right. Let's talk about Apple. Oh, by the way, Micah's here.

How you doing? I'm doing well. Yeah. How are you doing? All right. You're like, you know, Micah just shows up. I just fly in. Come by.

The last time Micah was in our office, he literally, it was like, what's, like 10 to 5? And Micah just rolled in drinking a beer. And we're like, hey, Micah's here. And he drank his beer and left. It was like, uh, I was like, uh, I'll learn something about how to work. There is actually a tremendous amount of news we need to get to, not least all of the stuff that happened with Microsoft to build. But first, we should talk about the little bit of Apple news that happened this weekend.

So Apple had its earnings, the second biggest quarter for Apple ever. The iPhone continues to skyrocket. Which, of course, means it was a massive disappointment to everybody in the investment community. You know, I got to say the Apple investment people out there in the world, right? now are they're just the most annoying, right? Like that feedback loop where you invest your money in Apple and then you're committed to Apple success because that will make you money, and then you're just out there being like, I'm an independent analyst. It's like, finding a $10 bill on the ground outside and be like, it's new to 20. Life sucks.

Oh, no, I'm coming at it from a different perspective, which is that if you are a huge investor in Apple, you should probably not sit around telling everybody how Apple is the greatest all the time. Okay. Anyway, so huge earnings for Apple. Apple Watchburn. Apple Watchburn. And then, like, literally the next day, the Wall Street Journal reported that the watch is the reason it's so supply constrained is because one of the suppliers that builds

the Taptic engine, a phrase that I love to use, they're having problems and defective parts have been delivered. Which, by the way, is an interesting thing not to tell your investors. Well, I mean, if they caught it early and, they're like managing, managing expectations. Like, maybe. Yeah, but how genuine is your, is your customer satisfaction status if half the people who want to get your product can't have?

Well, then you're managing your customer satisfaction. Right. You're like, you know, you want one? How about a broken one? That's cool. Now, that's, I mean, look, it's a new product. New products have problems. I think what's more interesting is the weird reporting around it.

So Apple hasn't really commented to anyone. The Wall Street Journal ran this based on their sources, obviously, the very suppliers. And then Recode followed up with, like, a quote from an outside analyst. They're all insistent that no bad parts have made it to customers, but then John Gruber definitely had a broken one that he and I have been joking about for a while. There have been another couple broke. It's like broken ones have made it out there for sure. I don't know.

It's the watch. Are you still wearing yours? I have one that had got delivered today. And I got home to use it. Right. Because I'm making you work. Yeah. Exactly.

I gave, yeah, I'm not wearing mine. I'm not wearing mine. Oh, you're wearing yours, sir? Hey. Yours that you got spray paint story. Tell us spray paint story all quick. Oh, so there's a filmmaker on YouTube. His name is Casey Nystad.

And he email me like three days before the Apple Watch came and was like, I need an Apple Watch. And I was like, L-O-L-Y. He's like, I'm not going to tell you. And then he was like, I want to spray a paint of gold, and he made a video about it. And the video, if you type in how to turn your Apple Watch gold on YouTube, that is my watch. It's chipping off. It looks fine. I think we're going to have him redo it.

The video has like 2 million views in about a week, which is crazy. But Apple Watch? Yeah, wait, tell me that. Hipe check Apple Watch. No, so I had this. It's a Gen 1 product. It's nice. Hype check Apple Watch.

Six, seven? Maybe it's, I've spent, yeah, about, it's almost a week. And it's like, yeah, I see notifications on my wrist. And that's basically all it does. And I haven't ran with it yet, because I don't want to get this thing sweaty with the spray paint, literally. I made a very controversial. Is that a first world problem? Like a, like a YouTube filmmaker spray painted my Apple Watch gold?

God, I can't. I can't run with it because I'm afraid the finish will play. I really, the Taptic Engine. I don't think that counts as a first world problem. That's like an entire, like, a whole, like, tangent world problem. Look. That's like a thirst world problem. The, Jesus.

Wonderful to. Welcome to the podcast. The tactic engine on here is awesome. I let people, I let people try it on. And everyone freaks out with the heartbeat thing. They're like, oh, my God, that's my heartbeat. And, and I, you know, I have them send. Like, if you ever get random harp beats for me, Nilai, at, like, two in the morning,

that is probably from some person wearing my watch. Yeah. And I think the vibration, that whole thing is really cool, but it definitely feels like a Gen 1 product in the sense that why is it so thick? And, yeah, battery is really great, though. I took it off the charger this morning at 8 o'clock in the morning, and it's at 78%. And that annoys you, too, this whole wrist deal. What the people in their car is not seeing is the Apple Watch move.

That's definitely something I've noticed with everybody talking about the Apple Watch is when people ask you, like, how much did you spend on this? And they're like $600,000 or something. Explain why it's good. And then they list off a list of things that like people thought were cool for five seconds. It's like, okay. Yeah. No, I mean, the thing that I've noticed the most is we've all become a society of Apple Watch users who are flamboyantly checking the time. Yeah. Hello! I do have a notification. It's just like, because getting the thing to flip on is really hard. You've got to let it know. My name is Long John Sunday. I'm going to look at you.

And then Chris wrote that thing about turning off all the sounds. Oh, yeah. Because there's literally nothing worse than like, because it's a really loud ding and then it taps you. And Apple's got this whole story about, and it's true. Apple's like the sound and the vibration work together. It's really cool. love it, we thought about it a lot, and they're right. But what they didn't think about is that normal human beings should not alert the people around them that they're about to flamboyantly

check their wrist. It's like, ding, and you're like, I'm not paying attention to you now. It's awful. I turned it off. It's the television computer interface theory of, I don't know, everything has to make a noise if it's digital. Right. It's very like old school. So I will say, so there's a watch. The watch is obviously just out. Um, Mike, what do you think about their earnings? Well, they sold a ton of iPhones, as was expected. Yeah, they sold a lot of iPhones. And they sold a ton in China.

Yeah. What is the 60 million? Yeah. I think it's shocking, though, that the total number of iPhone sales is still not above the total number of iPad sales. Like, over time, that's crazy to me. But then the iPad is, like, tanking now. Well, relatively tanking.

When did the iPad come out? Two thousand times. No, iPad growth is like, it's like 10% year of view. It's like some tiny number now. How many iPads do they sell this quarter? 12.6 million. Yeah, that's a big number. It's like how many surfaces you sell Microsoft?

One million? 100,000? Right, okay. So in Q2 of 2013, they sold 19.5 million iPads. In Q2 of 2014, they sold 16.3 million. And in Q2 of this year, they sold 12.6. Like, those numbers are just going down. But also, the iPads keep getting better.

So what is the compelling reason to get a new iPad? Well, so I think the most important thing about this is that they now make more money from the Mac, which obviously sells even fewer units. Than the iPad. Than the iPad. Which is bonkers. And I think probably everyone in the Mac team is like just running around, just like spiking MacBooks at the feet of the iPad people.

It's like, what now? Totally picture that in my mind. Awesome. A bunch of nerds running around. Multitasking. I don't know. Like, I think that's what's interesting to me is it doesn't really matter what else Apple does because the iPhone will just carry them forward forever.

I don't know about that. I don't know about that watch. You don't know? I don't know. I don't even know I bought it. I still don't know. Like, did you buy the new MacBook also? I love the new MacBook. Huh?

Said y'all are suckers. Why are we suckers? Because you bought something that no one needs, including you. Like, I've asked all of you. I've asked you. I think your real life impression of the watch is far lower than the public score that we gave. Here's what I'll... And I'm putting you on the spot to admit it.

Here's what I will say. Here's what I'll say. I gave it a score. I'm going to be very charitable. I gave it a score. It's true. It's a fact. And everybody can go on the website and look at it.

I encourage you to read that story once again, share it with your friends. Apple Watch review. Mail us a dollar. A lot of people spend a lot of time on it. I think that review, and I've been reading a lot of, like Matt Honan wrote this great thing in BuzzFeed this week about how we're in a time of uncertainty and like that uncertainty. Do you read it? It was good. It was called No one knows, which is amazing. I just think that the significance of that headline is just hilarious in the context of like media and BuzzFeed. Something about a watch. Yeah. Fair. What time is it? I don't know.

I have to like, it hasn't turned on yet. And the whole, he was like, no one will come out and say what they really think of the watch. And then I thought of my review. And I thought, well, there's an intro, but literally the first words of analysis that exist of the watch are, it's slow. And the last words are, you probably shouldn't buy it. Fair. Right? And then I gave it a number. And that number is, I think, fair. But I believe that we should live in a world of no sevens. Do you know this? When you ask people to write something one to ten, a thing that you can do to get the truth out of them is demand that you live in a world of no sevens. Right. And Lockhart-Hart Steel, the editorial director of Fox Media, does this to me. He says it all, the world of no sevens.

have to sit there. And then I have to usually be brutal. That's it. Those are some facts, I know. All right. That's it. I'm not. You can, those are some dots.

And I'm saying you can connect those dots into a picture of a puppy. You can connect them into a solar system. You can draw whatever picture with those dots that you want. However you want to connect them. But the dots are on the table. I mean, I've asked people for months. You're such a troll, man. What are you saying, Mike?

You're fired. I've asked people for months to give me a legitimate use case for the watch. I don't think there is one. Did you read this long John River thing? And by the way, we're supposed to talk about earnings. We're just like lost in this watch. So they didn't announce, and they're not going to break out watch sales for a long time. They just mean other.

But not even because it's like their first earnings after the watch is launched, which we're used to. The new product comes out. They don't tell you about sales because they need time to collect the day, all the stuff. but the watch will just be in like other other services for a while they're not going to break out individual watch sales for a while which I think is crazy I don't know if that's true

didn't they do that with an iPad didn't they break out iPad in their first earnings when they first iPad this is like an old Steve Jobscoat he was like throwing shit in Amazon he's like the reason Amazon doesn't tell you how many of anything they sells because they don't sell any of them yeah but Apple's Apple's probably sold

I would I would bet Apple's gonna do first month sales Well, I hope, I mean, I'm sure not curious. What's going to stop them from putting out a press release, you know, next month? I think they got expectations of sky high for it. And they got to deliver the actual products. That's also true. They got a little bit of a road ahead of them.

Yeah. I mean, I hope they do. I'm dying to know. I just think it's funny that they're right now, Apple's business is just, it's like the iPhone and this incredible growth in China, resurgent Macs and this like middle zone of like, here's a new product, we hope it does well, here's this iPad, something is going to happen. And I think the iPad is just like a fascinating thing. Like, I would love my iPad to be more useful, and it's just not.

Yeah. I think they've got to get there. What Apple's going to do is put up a chart at WWDC or something that shows the Apple Watch against other watches, which is like, then it's going to look great. I think WD they've got to do apps. they've got to start doing the native app story at WWC. I'm just talking about sales. Sales numbers. I don't know if they're going to do that.

I mean, expectations. Analysts have been putting out numbers, 40 million, 50 million this year. I don't know if they want to deal with that. Yeah. That's a lot of pressure for them. We'll see. We'll see. All right.

We've done enough Apple. I do want to get to all the Microsoft stuff. So any other final Apple points? Hype check Apple right now. I mean, the stock is fat right now. I mean, it's like eight and a half, I would give it. Business Sheffler just shows up. Business Sheffler, that's a new one.

Corporate Sam. All right, there it is. Corporate Sam is like. I think, no, I think WWDC will be really interesting because of the watch. They can talk about whatever the hell they want with the watch. Like, imagine they roll, they probably won't do this, but imagine they rolled a six software update out for it. I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember what happened because I remember the original iPad came out on April and then they had WWDC

like two months later trying to remember what iOS version was that. Did the iPad ship with iOS 5? iPad shipped with iPhone OS 4.0. It was still called iPhone. iPhone OS 4. And then they announced iOS 5

and everything got that, right? Including the iPad. I feel like they might do that. When is WWDC? June 8th, right? New 8th to the 12th year. Yeah, through the 12th, cool. I mean, they've got to do real native apps.

You've got to do watch stuff. Because the apps and they watch right now. The one thing that I knew... It's bust. So this is, here's an I'll throw you another dot on my map. I have predicted that the second wave of reviews would come out and they would be brutal and they're starting to come out and they're a little bit brutal. Yeah. See, and gadgets.

Michael Gorman. I see what you did. I connected all the dots. It looks kind of like a butt. I said, you can draw whatever picture you want, man. I think it looks like a kitten. I think it looks like sunshine and cupcakes. You get one of the butts on the mind?

I don't know what that means all. All right. Speaking of that, do we get an ad? It's time to talk about it. Time to make some money. Today's episode of the Vergecast was brought to you by Tripcase. Tripcase helped brilliant people take over 30 million trips last year by collecting their flight, hotel, and other trip items into a single app on your phone or tablet.

You also get free flight notifications if you're delayed or your gate changes, and their support for Pebble and Android Wear, so you'll always be up to date. If you get started, just go to Tripcase.com slash Vergecast to sign a new. up. If Timothy doxed, you are still not convinced. By the way, I like the idea that your first your first name is doxing you. Here is why Tripcase is a place for Traips Live. There's Uber integration. Tripcase automatically fills in your pickup and drop off locations based on your trip. Shows Uber rates right within the app. You just click the button. Get a ride. How easy is it to click a button? So easy. There's free flight alerts. Tripcase will automatically alert you of any changes to your trip, like a flight delay or gate change, via email or notification on your phone,

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You can listen to me to talk about it. You can wait for me to talk about Windows, or you can go to tripcase.com slash vergecast. Check it out today. Back out of the cash lane. That's a joke that literally no one could possibly understand. When I was in college and I was studying and take the LSAT, my friend John and I would drive every day to another college

in parking and parking structure. And it would be like eight in the morning because we were going to our LSAT prep class. Like literally the least fun you can have. Eight in the morning on a Saturday driving to an LSAT prep class. But we would always, this is so dumb. We would always make sure there was a huge sign of the parking structure. There was like the credit card lane and the cash lane. And we always went through the cash lane and would yell cash lane and high five.

It ate the morning. That's for you, John Connolly. I hope you're out there somewhere. Was this car a convertible so you can like reach up and do it? Yes, my friend John was 25 feet tall. He was just saying, no, I mean, like, there's like a regular sign up here. No, I'm saying, wait, you high-fived the sign or you high-fied each other. Right, so.

Like, it wasn't like a... Never mind. It was my car. It was your car. It was a convertible Mustang? It was not a regular. It was a regular Mustang. Regular.

Sam, hype check this anecdote. Uh, we're approaching dangerously low levels. I'm just saying, man. Live Life in the Cash Lane With Neil have to tell. That's my autobiography. Wow. There was a show called Life and the CashLays.

Yeah, that's Micah's new show. Life in the Cash Lane. Thursday nights on WGN. Life in the Cash Lane. With luxury singleton. It's just Micah getting on and off jets. That's it. All right.

Oh, boy. All right, Micah, you want to tell us with a G4? That's like the other big thing that happened this week, but it was a small thing. Yeah. I mean, LG's put out their new flagship phone, the LGG4. Yeah. This is nice. 5.5 inch 2560 by 1440 QHD display.

It has leather on the back. Yeah. Which is, I guess, something. Why leather? I don't get this leather thing. You're the luxury correspondent, you tell us. I don't, leather and phones don't go together. I don't.

No, they have a whole, there's a whole series of quotes about how all the other phones are like more machine-like and they want to be more organic. Which is organic, nothing says organic, like, leather. strapping the flesh of a beast to a metal chassis. I think you just described the Terminator. Yeah, cool Terminator, cow. No, there's a whole thing. You know, we keep talking about, I don't even know how to explain the text message. I just got it.

Joanna Stern just texted me. I'm doxing her, too. She just texted me, there's a cute Indian kid on my flight, made me think of you. Oh, my God. It's so racist. That's not racist. I mean, it kind of is.

I mean, at my wedding, she definitely chased around one of my cousin's kids for, like, a while. She's like, they're so cute. And, like, ran after it. God bless you, Stern. Anyway, did you have a selfie stick? Because that would be scary. No, it's like years ago. This is way before selfie sticks entered the mainstream.

They were all the fringes in 2011. Only radicals use selfie sticks. No, the G4. I feel like there's a moment where, like, LG's doing a fashion thing. they're doing an organic thing, right? They're using all these words. And I think they're just like, what if we put, like, materials on it?

And that's as close as they can get to, like, fashion. I just think they're trying to be different because they want to stand out. Right. I don't want to phone with leather on it. No. I really don't. The leather is a bunch of colors, too, right?

Yeah, it comes in light brown and black. It looks like. I don't think the letter. I'm trying to make you hype for this. I can't get hype for this. I can't get high for this. You've got to deliver some excitement here. There's a reason that are made out of metal is because it's good.

I mean, you don't need to change that. But if you could change that. But if you could change that. You could have any material on the back of your phone. I mean. Materials that haven't been invented yet. What would it be? Not leather.

Not leather. Well, there's a metal back. There's a plastic back. I mean, this is just like one option, right? I mean... Yeah. The one we have is a... It's the plastic back.

Yeah. Dan has it. We have it. How embargoed is that information, Sand? Zero. Zero. Yeah, they gave them out at the event. They had like a gigantic pile of phones. Did you not see this? There was literally a pyramid of phones. And we put it on Snapchat at Periscope while you were probably sipping martinis on the beach. Sam, you didn't know. Well, first of all, you didn't know that Periscoping Game of Thrones while it aired live was illegal.

So I don't trust you to honor an embargo, quite frankly. Is Periscope scofflying a thing? You're just wandering around. They're actually cracking down on the Periscope. How do you crack down on that? There was an article about it. There were like, there was some, some, I pass it on to T.C. But in any event, yes, we have one. Okay.

It is a plastic back one. The phone's really fast. Yeah. It's running Android 5.1. I'm skinned. Camera's good. It's got the... I disagree about the camera.

I like the camera. I like it looks good. Looks good. Looks like something that would be featured in Hamaker Schlemmer. A what? You know, it's funny because it can actually give you a shiatsu massage as well. It's perfect for dads.

Dads and grads. It's all, it's a shrubridge and hammerker, like, they literally only exist in June, and then they go away. Like, when does, does Brookstone sell anything at any other time? We got to do a deep dive into Brookstone. You really should. And just, like, blow it up. Micah, get on it. Do they still have physical stores?

Yeah. I think there's one in the, in the Freehold Mall in my hometown. They're everywhere. Yeah. Wow. And they sell crazy things. I don't get. Like the last time I went to a Brookstone was when I was home in Chicago, I went to a mall.

And like literally the front display was like, the world's best Bluetooth speaker. And then like, here's a drone. And then literally the third big front of store display was like, the world's most fascinating goo. That's cool goo. It does feel like sand. I don't know what to do with this. All right. So, Michael, why are you so unhype about this?

I don't, look, it seems like, you know, they were in the lab and someone said, make it interesting, and someone had a leather bag on the table. I'm like, let's put this on the back of the phone. And I don't like, like, like, I like the S6, the Samsung X, S6. Samsung did a really good job with that, but this seems kind of basic. I mean, they've definitely toned down the software, which is all I ever want them to do. And then they've got their, like, laser-focusing camera. So I disagree with you, Sam. I played with it for a minute, and it took, like, four blurry pictures in a row.

and like that's the it's just like the one thing I wanted to do is like focus really fast and take a photo obviously Dan has it I mean we're review it at some point yeah we're spending this week with it but I will say they've toned down the software which is nice if they do uh I mean they still have crazy LG stuff all over this yeah they do like the all the settings are like have been rearranged which is just that's like here's my theory it's like they abuse you into understanding where they've put the settings and then you use a different phone I don't know how to turn down the brightness on this phone. Better go back to LG.

I can't sleep at night wondering why companies... You can't sleep at night? I lose sleep over wondering why companies just don't put stock Android on their phones. They make the hardware. Don't mess with the software. There's a reason why Google bought Android. There's a reason why Android is good right now. You don't have to dress it in your garbage crap.

Yeah. That is it. I mean... If the LG... Okay, like the G4, if the G4, if the... S6 Edge or regular S6 were running stock Android. I would definitely buy one of those devices

to carry around with me. But no. Yeah. I'm definitely still on my Nexus 5. Just have it. Oh, me too. T.C., your phone is the biggest hunk of garbage ever made.

Oh, that's a great phone. The last time I was out with T.C., he was like, my phone's so broke. The screen of his phone is so shattered. Can we roll that beautiful bean footage? No, you can't. It's an audio show. You have to describe it.

What beautiful. Oh, it's jacked. It's jacked up. The last time I was TC in a bar, I will say, he had a few drinks. And he was like, what? Let's see if we can break my phone. And then just began throwing it violently on the ground. And I was after it was broken already.

Yeah. So I'm at the phase where it can't be broken. It can't be more. They're broken. Aren't you? Aren't you like cutting yourself using this thing? Only a couple times. This thing is nothing serious.

I think Samsung has sort of separated itself from the pack of Android OEMs. Yeah. I think they're just better. Yes. This is not on that level. It took them, what, five, six years. Yeah, but they got there. They're there.

Do you remember the G3, it came out and they're like, we put the button on the back? And we were like, L-L-L-Y. And then I don't, where's that coming from, Sam? It's making them hysterically laugh for no reason. It's awesome. It's just what kind of spinning text, give is that? No, but it's funny because the buttons on the back of the G-4 and zero, conversation about it.

No. When you go home to Sater is like how you talk to your bubby. You go LOL Bobby. That was a funny story. I'm just saying like, do you talk, do you say LOL out loud to anybody else? Who goes home to Sater? Like multiple. I don't know.

Yeah. I think we all just learned something about YouTube. Poor Sam. I love you, Sam. I check the G4. And we get, well, I'll do another ad. I mean, LLG4. Like who's going to buy it?

Who's going to buy a G4? I mean, you know, the Android, We'll buy it, but what's compelling about that next to a S6? What's compelling about that next to an iPhone 6? I don't know. The bonds are on the back. Oh, isn't that going to be hard to hold? Okay, put that down next phone.

Because that's how people shop for phones still. Right. I actually think Samsung, I keep getting baby updates from Stern. I don't even have to say. Fine. I will say Samsung, they like did, it's like not morally defensible. Right, but they like definitely just ripped the iPhone 6 in many ways, which is a genius move. They literally did.

They're like, oh, you don't want this iPhone? How about this other iPhone? And it's fine. You know, there's all those pictures of the S6 that are like, look at how this stuff isn't lined up. Do you see these? They're amazing. And I agree. Like, that would drive me crazy.

And like, why is there like a rando Qualcomm sticker that's not at the right angle on it? But it's like, you know, who doesn't care is most people? Exactly. They're like, look at this kind of pretty cheap other phone that looks like an iPhone, and that it's working for them. All right. One more ad, and then we're going to do it. As promised, we're in a deep dive into Windows 10. I'd like both of you to prepare talking points during this time.

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I feel like I really sold it. Sounded good. And we did the high-five. We did a high-five. Crucial. I was saying this is mostly what I do at the verge is I spend money. It's like that's mostly what we do as journalists at the verge. We actively spend money.

This is one of the few times where I feel like I'm... Making it. Yeah, I mean, Ernie. Sam, are Sam just air-trolling me? Just look at that photo. All right, all right, right, right.

What's happened? Oh, I don't think I'm on the internet. That's good. All right, okay. We have a little over half an hour, or a little under half an hour, actually. We got to talk all this window stuff. I've been saving it to the end.

I'm excited about it. I will say I've never been as, like, hype about Microsoft as I was to watch build, except for the first hour of build, which was... You mean the first two hours, right? It was like four hours long. And I get that it's a developer conference, and you have developers there, that's the audience.

But you do not have to write code to your Hadoop cluster in front of those... It is a choice you can make. You just never have to do that in front of like 5 million people. You got to play to the crowd, though, and they love Hadoop. I got... Who doesn't? What the hell is Hadoop? Yeah, right?

Exactly. You know Peter Gallagher, the guy with the big hammer, he smashed Dupes on stage? Come on, man. I don't even know. That's the first thing that came to mind. I have no idea what it is. I'm going to look it up right now. All right.

It's a dynamic cluster array for cloud services. Oh, that's what it is. What? When you have a broad base of innovation, you can unleash a range of disruptive solutions with Microsoft's new Docker technology. Dude, I don't know. I feel you, though. I wrote last time, like, in January, I wrote something called Microsoft

is ready to be loved again because they were... Yeah. That's when they showed HoloLens for the first time and they actually seemed excited about what they were doing. Yeah. So they did lengthy build keynote. Nadella comes on stage. He's like, we're ready to do this.

Let's get into it. And then they like, literally... So there's like a theory and architecture of compression and then expansion. Do you know this? So like Franklin would write into this thing The internal combustion engine? Yes.

Yes, architecture often works like a four-cylinder engine. No, no, it's like you walk into a small space. Like cathedrals do this. You walk into the small space and then it expands. And the first hour of build was just Microsoft just compressing you. Just like compressing your expectations. You're like, you're not releasing anything. And they're like, and now the big news, office is a platform.

And they're like, here's an Uber app inside of out. It was just like this endless buildup. And then Nadella was like, let's talk about Windows. Let's get into it. And then that news was really cool in many. Do you want to go through it? Windows. Tell me about Windows.

Can we just back up for one second? Back it up. For the people listening that don't know, Microsoft has a developer conference every year. It's called Build. It's where they announce basically all of their software and hopes and dreams for the year. And it's led by Satya Nadella, who is their CEO. And now TC explain what happened to Build. So we're in developer season, right?

So it's Build. and then it's I.O and then WWC is all coming. Yeah, well, Windows 10 is supposed to be coming, what, the summer? Yeah. At some, they didn't reveal... That's the one thing we thought they were going to ask. Yeah, they didn't. But, I mean, I guess the TLDR of Windows 10

is that it's like something every really nerdy person who ever used Windows dreamed what an operating system might be like. Yeah. Which is something that can be on anything. Right. You can run on a Raspberry Pi, it runs on HoloLens. It runs.

on Z Xbox. There's no like 14 versions of Microsoft that you have to go through a checklist and figure out which one you need to install. They're probably still going to do that a little bit. Yeah. I mean, who knows. But like it's, you know, they did, they showed the thing where they had the tablet, they plugged the tablet in the monitor and turn it on a desktop computer.

And they're like, and you'll be able to do it with a phone too. We don't have that phone yet. So this is a simulation. The dream of the Motorola Atrix 4G is a lot of you. Hey, that was a good dream, man. And then they announced Edge, Microsoft Edge, their new. Web server, which I firmly, or web server. I got that addupe on the brain.

Sounds like you're on drugs. Yeah, man. Just duping. Just duping all over the place. Ha, ha, dupe. No, Project Spartan, which, by the way, sweet vindication for Tom Warren, who is like, the Internet Explorer brand is dying, and then, like, everyone yelled at him. And they're like, what's our new browser called?

Microsoft Edge. It has the same logo as Internet Explorer. So we're definitely going to keep both of those things around. And then HoloLens, obviously. Which is ridiculous. Which is ridiculous. It's like, it's silly. It looks really cool.

And a good way you're saying. And yes, also no. Explain. Okay, who's going to use HoloLens? This is my question. I'm telling you, man, if they make a new, like, Tomogachi game where you have a pet. So you're going to take care of? We're going to go from having real paths to virtual.

I'm saying. Pokemon battles would be sick. See, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Hype check Pokemon on HoloLens. I can't even give you a number. It's out of control. Yeah.

It broke the hype check meter. Oh my God. Can you imagine, like, Yu-Gi-O, and imagine like Magic the Gathering if they got into this where the monsters were like real things. Didn't they show one like that at the first HoloN's demo? They should a game. They should a Minecraft thing.

Yeah. Which was like blocks. Right. But anyway, they showed, so they should. several demos of things happening. And one of them was like the universal apps thing where you can have apps that work in the augmented reality vision.

So the use case was like you're in your living room and you want to put a video on your wall somewhere instead of looking at a TV, which is what every human being does. Yeah. And then you say you want to get up and move to a different room of the house. The video will follow you to a different room of the house.

And it's just... Well, it's just funny because during those demos, Like there was obviously a person wearing HoloLens, and they outfitted a camera so you could see what they were seeing, which is all cool, like, all very cool tech. But like the person is like, and then maybe you just want to walk to another room. And they're like confidently walked away wearing a helmet.

It's just like, I don't, that doesn't seem like how I want to move about my home. Like, it looks amazing. Like, I will say all of the VR stuff to me is still very nebulous, like, why are we going to use it? And Hollins is like, I get it. Yeah. It would be cool to like, that's the promise of Google Glass. glass. That's like what you want. That's what everybody

wanted class to be. But like how are you going to get people to like wake up every day and put a helmet on? How do you get it around? Like how do you get it? Nadella. Nadella is like AR Rangers walking the streets. Are you wearing your augmented reality headset, sir? Michael, that would be like asking how do you get people to wake up in the morning, sit on their couch, press a bun and sit out of

watch a screen for two hours before they go to work? Yeah, but you don't have to put a helmet on to do that. That's true. I mean the helmet thing, I mean it is like a helmet Do you see the video? It's huge. Yeah. And it clicks all the way around your head. It's a future.

It's a future. Helmets are the future. No, I will say that the hall lens is the most exciting Microsoft thing I've seen in a long time. One of the most purely exciting things. But the idea that you're just going to run like Skype on it. Oh, that's boring. And you're just like pinned Skype to a wall. It's, it's, I feel the same way about this as I did when they first started showing off Connect.

And I was like, dude, yo, connect. is amazing. I was like imagining 3,000 different games that would be just totally awesome to have Connect on. Yeah. And then it was like

connectimals. It was like one game. That's your favorite Connect game? I can't. Like what's the... Dance Central? What else do they have? Okay, Dance Central is good.

Yeah, Dance Central is like the one game for Connect that was like really clicked and it was like this is pure Connect. This is amazing. This is exactly what this is for. Everything else was just kind of like, this is just making things more difficult than they need to be, and it's all gimmicky, like.

Well, I mean, but this is like a, I don't know, what do you think? We actually have to get to the biggest windows news of all, but let's finish. I think if they can shrink it down eventually, it'll be great, but like, it's too big right now. That's their issue. Like, you can't get normal people to wear a helmet. Like, that's not going to happen. Like, plain and simple. But maybe if you're just like in your house or in your office, just got holograms everywhere. I don't know. That's the thing. I don't think you need. a lot of normal people to wear it for to be successful, like get gamers to use it.

Yeah. And they will make a lot of money on it. Yeah, I don't think it's going to be something we live in, particularly. I think you're going to say, okay, it's time for HoloLens, and then you wear the HoloLens, and you do whatever things you do inside there, and then you're done. Right. Yeah, I think there needs to be, like, really specific experiences.

Yes. Yeah. You can give people through that instead of just to, oh, wear this, and stuff will happen, because it's not going to happen, if that's what you do. I think it'll be great for gaming, but they need to really break down with the use cases. for outside of that. No, you walk, you're in your house,

your house is beautiful wood walls with nothing else on them. And you're just... Wood walls? Every Microsoft demo has wooden walls. Have you seen, have you not noticed this? Oh my God,

you're right. It's always like a, it always looks like a really nice, like clothing store. It's like a banana or not, banana folks a little less. Dare I say Abercrombie? It's like an Abercrombie.

That's kind of what I'm thinking, right? It's like a log cabin, you know? A rule. Remember that store? Like a really high tech log cabin. Like you're in the future. but it's really earthy there. Anyway, so that's every Microsoft set.

And you're just walking around with your helmet on, and you're just like, you know what? I do want that app to just be on the wall. You're just flicking it. Just live in life. But if there's Skype on the wall, they can't see you, right? If you're just, if you're pinned a Skype window to the wall, there's no camera that can see you, right?

Is there though? You could just see that. Isn't there, Sam? Isn't there a camera? I'm just letting this one ride. Let's tease this one out as far as you can go. What if your walls are made of cameras? Because, I know, well, I will say this.

The rest of Holland, it's not just a helmet. It's like a positioning system in your house. Right. There's, like, things that go on the corners and all the stuff. And then there was a big demo where, like, a robot rolled out and turned into a bigger robot. That was nuts. I mean, it's all very cool. It's all very tech demo, right? They still won't let us film it or take pictures of it working.

The prototypes, like, the prototype Tom used last time was basically, like, Windows tower strapped to his head. So, like, they've got a waste to go. Okay, biggest news. We got to do this. Oh, here we go. We're so hyped on this. I know what he's about to say.

The headline is big news, colon. Huge news. Huge news. Every Windows 10 device will have an Android runtime, so you can basically just report your Android apps to Windows, and you can compile iOS code directly to Windows. So they're basically just like giving up on the app front and saying, bring us your apps.

Oh, cool. So it's the way. web. It's kind of weird, right? All of Windows 10, every desktop screenshot of Windows 10 is like little web, little apps everywhere. Like when you shrink an app on Windows 10, like, it's responsive because they're all universal. And they turn into phone apps, which is cool. You're shaking your head of me. This is too complicated. It's just too complicated. I don't think I've ever been on my, I'm not saying that I'm everybody, but I've never been on like my desktop at home and thought to myself, I wish I could run an Android app on this.

No, but you have probably used a Windows phone and thought to yourself, I wish I could run apps on this. That's true. And that, like, solves a problem for that. So is Microsoft giving up on trying to, like, woo over developers? Everything they announced is, in the 90s, Microsoft had this overt strategy called embrace and extend, where they would take, like, web standards, like, fuck with them and make their Microsoft standards.

And that's, like, that's not quite what they're doing here, but everything they announced, is you can run old Windows apps on Windows 10, you can run Android apps on Windows 10, you can recompile your iOS apps on Windows 10, oh, we have a new browser, you can run your Chrome extensions here if you want to. Like, everything is about just like bringing in everything else you might use into this one big unified Microsoft world, which is neat. But I'm very skeptical of like how well it will perform. I don't know if what you want is to run the same app on your Xbox is on your

phone. Yeah, it seems, I mean, it makes me uncomfortable. Why? I don't know. It just seems like Microsoft wants to create, or what they're creating is just like an emulator that will run literally anything that's ever been made. Yeah, there's definitely that vibe a little bit. And that's cool.

Yeah. What do you think? I feel the same way. For like two people. Yeah. It's cool for like two people. It's going to be interesting to see how many developers actually use it and start pointing over apps.

Yeah. That's going to be the interesting part. I know they want them to do that and then sort of hook into Windows features, and we'll see how that goes. I don't think it's going to work out. Yeah, but there's like a lot of Windows PCs. I mean, their whole thing is it'll be on a billion devices in three years. If you're like an iOS developer and you could just suddenly get the market of Windows touchscreen laptops by just like doing some work, wouldn't you just do that a little bit of work? That seems to be the bet, right?

If you're an Android developer and you can get the market of Windows touch-treating laptops, by just doing a little bit of work. Someone just tweeted at you and I think it's good for developers maybe, but what about people using those apps? There's some limitations with that cross-compile. Only mobile for Android, only desktop for iOS, still need to do API work. I'm not sure if that's entirely true. I'm going to assume it is.

I mean, they'll get there. I mean, like, it's going to take them a minute to do all this stuff. I mean, like, but that's the idea, right? like they for better or worse like they finally it's funny sam biford his whole argument for everything at this moment is they should stop making phones yeah so like two days ago he's like microsoft should stop making phones and then last night he literally wrote sony should stop making phones and like his answer to every problem in tech is like you should stop and i think well i like windows i've been using it forever yeah uh i wanted a windows phone for a really long time and every time

i went back to look at it when i was making a decision to buy a phone I said, oh, this looks cool. Does it have Instagram? Right. And the answer was no. And I immediately was like, well. Right. So if you're Facebook and you could just like port the Android Instagram app to, like, wouldn't

you just do it? Like that seems to be how they're solving this problem. Like it's not that much more work. We don't have to like pay you to write some custom code. You have to maintain. We're just going to run your Android app and like do some magic to make it look like a Windows app. And then your customers will be so happy that you'll do the additional work of making it

more Windows-y. And all of that seems a little bit pipe dreamy. We'll see. I mean, it depends on each company whether they think they want to give some of the experience. If you could have a touchscreen Windows laptop and you could straight up run the Android Instagram app on a window and use it like that, wouldn't you do that? Like, I would do that. It would be, that would, that would, like, make a number of my extremely limited dreams

come true. Yeah, I don't know. like the people browse Instagram on mobile is made on for mobile. This feels like a weird going backwards kind of thing. Like do you browse in here, browse Instagram on the desktop? We can't. I do sometimes.

Instagram.com. You can do it. Come on. Who uses Instagram.com? No way. I do. I, yeah, I check it like maybe once a week, but it's there and it exists and it works and you can like photos. I do it occasionally because it's easier to school. She's works for rocks.com. She runs all

their socials with their team. Would you ever use Instagram on the desktop? Because that's your job. Right. This is what I'm saying. But I'm saying if you could have that app straight up on your computer and you could just like do this, I would totally do that.

By the way, when I say do this for the people in their cars, I'm just idly waiting my finger at a screen at a non-touch screen last time. What do you think, Micah? I mean, I'm going to pick up my phone and look at Instagram. Like the question is, even if they port over a ton of the iOS and Android apps, Are you going to switch to Windows phone? Like, if it had all the same apps,

is it good enough to where you're going to switch to it? That's the question. Like, is it going to really make a difference? I would. Yeah. Does it have, is it a Nokia phone with a sick camera? Yeah. That's the question.

Is Google going to put a Gmail app on it? No. Does it have leather? Does it have leather? Here's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for an LGG4 that runs Windows. Can I mean, like, maybe, Is it one of the new ones?

It can do the sick thing where it turns into a computer? Like, all of that to me is cool. Yeah. If the Xbox One was not, in my experience, like, a relatively slow and buggy product, the idea that all these apps, like, all of it's there. They did the thing, right? They made it work. Like, they have the one platform.

I'm just worried it's all going to be slow. Yeah, it's also really difficult to explain to people why they would ever want to do what they're demoing. Yeah. Like, I don't know, I don't know anybody, like, eat, I'm not even talking about it, like, old, you know, people like my mom or parents or grandparents or, you know, people, I'm talking about, like, peers that I know. I don't know how I would explain to them why it would be useful for them to have a phone that they could put on a dock and it comes up on another screen, like. Like, I have a laptop. I don't need to do that. Phones, because phones aren't, you know, they're still, look at the, look at the newest MacBook.

Yeah. error, that still has problems running, you know, even that has problems running stuff and it's more substantial than what's in a phone. I think that maybe the phone thing is like a little, that's like a serious road warrior. Like that's the dream of the Atrix 4G. Yeah. I think it's appealing, but I don't think it's like broadly appealing. But like the idea of the Windows phone where you just like have the laptop shell and you put

it in there and turn that's her laptop and they're done and you're like, oh, I'm back. I don't know what serious road warriors do. That's what they sound like. What if you want to pull your phone out? Use your phone. No, you're out of plane, man. You're sitting in first class. You're drinking the wine.

The wine's not good in first class. Well, you're still, what do you? Boom, look at that. Out of left, the old is a single-ton. No, you're still, I mean, you're still drinking it. I'm not saying you're like enjoying it. It's like at least, it's at least it's still an order of magnitude more complicated

than pulling out a laptop and using a laptop they already know how to use. And more than that, nobody has solved like the battery problem yet. I mean, that's the question. You guys are haters, man. Usually I don't know what it hates it. It's really interesting, but like how many regular people are actually going to want to... I think if you told regular people, hey, buy this... Normals.

Buy this Windows tablet. It's your only computer. And you can just like go plug it into a thing and it becomes a computer. They might be into it. They would be like, L-O-L-Y. Well, they wouldn't. But then they would be like, where are the apps? This is the problem with every Windows tablet and every use.

Does it have Snapchat? That's the question you're going to get asked a lot. And the answer is no. I don't know. I think the surface is more compelling than a tablet than you put into a monitor. Yeah, and even that's more difficult, you know,

hasn't been like super clear. I keep trying to use my Surface Pro 3. I like it. You do? I do. What do you use a fire? I tried to get one. You guys were like,

nah. And then you got one anyway. No, I don't have one. So why do you? So you just like it from afar? I'm using it for Dungeons and the Dragons. I'm using.

Wait, wait. So you do have one or you don't have one? I'm using our company, our company model. Sam's breaking an embargo. Those TC is still, like, review units for D&D. It's like anarchy right now. Mike is drunk on airplane wine.

This wine doesn't meet my standards. This is the worst first class I've ever been in. I think this is crazy. Here's what I want to, but like the, here's the thing. Blackberry tried this too, right? Yeah. Does your, you have a BlackBair with you right now? Yes, I do.

Does that thing, that ring runs fake Android apps? I'm sure it does. Don't even try. I use it only exclusively for email. Don't use this thing for anything else. Let me see this thing. That is like, you are like the person who buys the new MacBook because you did buy a new MacBook.

You're like, I'm just going to casually check email on this thing. It's a blackberry. It's a blackberry classic. You can throw it against the wall. You want to try this one out right here? Check that on. Wow. Can we start a Kickstarter to get TC a new phone?

I will buy you a new phone. I don't want a blackberry. I mean, wait, this thing, I don't know, you've got a voicemail here. You've got 17 LinkedIn messages. This is a true. Truly a business device. Exactly. Look at this, man.

You're doing it. Ooh, it's heavy. It is. Yeah. No, it feels, it feels, it's luxury. Wait, is the back,

what is the back? Do you see that hilarious? There was a hilarious piece of news this week where it was like, John Chen, the sea of Blackberry now. Yeah. He was just out there.

He was like, you know, we'd work with Apple on security software if they wanted to. I mean, that'd be cool. And then he was just like this, like, lengthy CNBC. And he's like, yeah, I mean, that'd be great.

I mean, like, you know, if they want, we're open, totally open to worry with Apple. I mean, like, not a problem for us. And the last sign was, like, Apple, the clinic on. I was like, oh, man, that sucks for you. What do you think? So you're, you're like a hater, T.C. No, I think it's a great idea. Yeah.

I just am worried that no one's going to care because Microsoft has always historically been really bad about explaining why the new stuff that they do is worth it. Are we just in a period of bad explanations? I think that's been the history of Microsoft. No, no, no, but like Apple can't explain the watch. When I was a hardcore and gadget commenter, yes, that was a period of my life. That happened, for real. Yeah, I know.

I'm aware of this situation. Yeah, I used to be a huge, like, Windows hype person. You won't even say it. I can't say it. A hype chef. Hype surf. Oh, a hype chef. You should do a series of Eater called Hype Chef.

And it's just Sam Sheffer meeting, meeting chefs. My nickname in high, so my Mike, my older brother's nickname in high school was Chef, and my nickname was Sue Chef. I mean, I get it, but that's not as good as my idea for you doing a series with Eater called Hype Chef, where you just go and swag out chefs across New York. And it's just you, like, showing up like a backpack full of Supreme Gear, and they're, like, cooking a steak, and you're like, put it a hat. Just think about what I'm saying.

They're like, this is how you make a perfect beef time. It's our tie. You're like, this is how you look totally dope in the club. And it's just those two things happening simultaneously. Sign me up. Hype Chef with Sam Sheper. Do it. Hype Chef.

That's pretty good at it. I like that. I'm a font of ideas. I like that. They should have asked me, we did our big ad sales new front stuff. I should have been on stage. I'm like, my newest idea for vertical I don't control. Hype Chef.

All right. Anyway, I think Microsoft let people like, you know, they took the, you They were the Google to Apple of the PC world. Right. You know, for a long time. Like, I would have family members go to Best Buy and get a $250 Hulet Packard PC with, like, monitor, keyboard, everything for that much. And they would, you know, a week later, they would be like, why is this a piece of shit?

Yeah. Like, well, you, because you spent $250. My new question, when anybody asks my computer buys, I ask them how long they want to keep it. Right. Because that's how I can, like, push them to, like, just buy it. For $300. more you can buy a Mac who care. And it'll last two twice, if not three times as long.

Yeah. They gave away specters, HP specters to everybody with the audience history. Yeah, why don't they give away the the DellXPS? That's a nice computer. We're about to be in that moment, though, with Windows 10, where it's like, what is the Windows laptop? I said this on another Vurchast, where the hell is Microsoft's laptop? They're never going to... Cool surface, guys. Like, I'm glad you're doing

that magnet thing, but where is... L-L magnets? Chef's getting mean. Yeah, it's like, okay, you could watch Google do it with the Nexus program. Where, they should just make a laptop called Microsoft Metro and it's boom. Did I tell you that I forgot my laptop at home the other day? Yes. And I used a pixel for the entire day at work.

How was that? It was pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, like, I have a, like, a classic, I don't do any real work management job. Like, I had, like, gays at emails and then, like, yell at some other people, like, wander around, poking at stuff. Sit in a tub of grapes. Yeah.

Just people kiss your ring throughout the day. That's, uh, it's weird. It's one of the weirdest parts of our office. It's my grape tub. What? Oh, so you crush the wine that Micah drinks in first class. That's weird. Weird relationship for me and Micah to have.

But yeah, that's, that's pretty much how that goes. Mike, I made you some body wine. All right. That, unfortunately, was the Vergecats. Wow. Don't know. Why we got to where we got. John left the control booth.

This is so bad. He quit. He's literally not in there. He's gone. I'm so sorry for what was going to have a mic. The mic is trying to leave me. The show's literally falling apart. It is literally falling apart. So Sam, engage us.

Engage. So hello fans and hello listeners. We are on a bunch of social platforms that you are probably on to. The one that I want you to add us on. right now. LL social.biz. The one that I want you to add us on right now is Snapchat because I manage that account and I do a lot of fun things on there with everyone in the office.

And it is the Real Verge. You've probably seen a tweet about it once or twice. You should add us there. You should also subscribe to our YouTube channel. We are YouTube.com slash The Verge. And we post all of our cool videos. Yes, we post videos on our YouTube channel. But we have a lot of good stuff.

We actually just put up this awesome 13 minutes. super cut of the history of the Marvel universe up on our website. You should go find that and watch it. It's good. And now, Neely, back to you. Great. By the way, we're going to start putting PowerPoints on YouTube. Just think about it. Wild. No one will ever expect it. Okay. So we're on iTunes. Please go to iTunes. Give us five stars. This week, your assignment, your iTunes review assignment, is to tell us what you would use the HoloLens for. I'm very curious. I don't know the answer. We also have another show, What's Tech with Chris Plant, which is excellent. One of my favorites.

It's all at iTunes.com slash The Verge. I am reckless. Sam is Sam Schaeffer. Micah's Michael Singleton and T.C. Chillnage. Word. Thank you so much to Tripcase. Tripcase.com slash The Vergecast.

Please check it out. And a special thank you to high five. What team does not want to high five each other at work? Take back the first 15 minutes of every meeting get started today. high five.com slash verge and request a free trial of high five. That's h-ig-h-f-I-V-E.com forward slash verge. Free trial. You can finally, finally start meeting face-to-face. That is The Vergecast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back next week. Rock and roll. Bye.