The Vergecast - Microsoft’s Panos Panay unfolds the Surface Duo

Episode Date: October 3, 2019

Chief Product Officer of Microsoft Panos Panay joins editor-in-chief of The Verge Nilay Patel and senior editor Tom Warren hours after Microsoft’s Surface hardware event to talk about the new Surface lineup — including the debut of their foldable devices.  Mr. Panay also talks about why Microsoft is using Android for their Duo device, their relationship with Google, and the future of dual-screen form factors. Below is a lightly edited transcript of the conversation.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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dropping May 14th Tap in with us Hey everybody It's the United from the Vergecast I got Tom Warren with me Hello there Tom Warren as you know

Ace Microsoft reporter The Verge That's me apparently Big Day for Microsoft Tom they announced a bunch of stuff They announced Surface laptop free Surface Pro 7

Surface Pro X Some earbuds And of course The Neo and the Juo Folding Service devices The Neo runs Dual screen

Neo runs Windows 10X Which is basically exclusive For Dual Screen Windows devices and the duo runs Android. It's a big deal. Can you believe that?

So, we did what you had to do. Panos Panay, chief product officer at Microsoft, sat down with me and Tom, and we went through it all. I will tell you, we focused mostly in the duo. Yeah. You'll hear the beginning of this interview. It's pretty funny. I asked him just say one sentence about every product,

and he was perfect. He had one sentence ready. He nailed it. A pure marketing speak of each product. I've never seen anything like it. It was very impressive. But then we talked about the duo. We talked about why Microsoft is using Android.

We talked about the relationship between Microsoft and Google there. We talked about dual screen form factors coming out and how to my shift things. Panos is one of the most interesting and one of the most honest senior products people that we encounter. Yeah. And he made fun in Tom a little bit. That's pretty good. Yeah, it was fun. All right, check it out.

It's Panos Panana and the Vergecast. Panos Panay, Chief Product Officer of Microsoft. Welcome to the Vergecast. Thanks, man. It's great to be here. Thank you for coming on. You had a big day today. We had a fun day.

Team had a big day. Yeah. So you, I'm going to, I really want to talk about Service Duo. Okay. But you announced a whole bunch of other stuff. Yeah. So here's, here's my early plan, because we got to mention it all. I'm going to say the names of some products you announced, and you're going to be one sentence about them.

Surface Pro 7. Super powerful. It's a product everybody loves. Surface Laptop 13. It's the most beautiful things you'll set your eye on relative to a laptop. Surface Laptop 15. It competes with the 13 for beauty, but it's a super beast in performance. This is great.

You're like, you're like, prepared for this. It's amazing. I didn't know. I live it, man. I was really not expecting you to be this crisp with it. No, to be clear, I don't prepare for anything. I have no time. I just have to show up and tell you what I'm thinking.

I'm not sure what else is supposed to happen. Service buds. Killer audio. Incredible audio. And then translation is, it's sick. When you're in PowerPoint translating on those things, it is a blast. It is amazing that you announced truly wireless headphones and, like, the killer use case that you're like, PowerPoint. Oh, heck yeah, man.

That's the most. It was so good, though. I can't explain it to you. You say whatever you want. It wasn't a Microsoft thing. Everybody has headphones. Everybody has earbuds. Come on. Okay. Yeah. Well, get into it. Ask me whatever you want about the earbuds. They're awesome. They really are awesome. No, it's the ProX and the Neo and the duo that I really want to talk about. Okay. The other stuff is really interesting. Yeah. That's why I wanted to like make sure we mention them all. Yeah, I think it's the core of our product line. I mean, that's what that's what people use today. Yeah. You know, we talk about where people are today and meeting them there. Then we talk about how, this is as a team, how we get people to where they're going.

And then we land, you know, making sure we have products for when they get there. And I think you're talking about Neo and Duo or the where products are going to be. I think ProX is the one that moves people, you know, tech forward a little bit. And the other products are the things you need right now. I mean, they seem, obviously the buds are new, but the other ones seem like these are very careful refinements of things that people already love. They are, and there's a lot in there. like the laptop is now repairable, but it's the same beautiful product, you know, no, no screws,

no trap doors, anything like that. That's a big deal for commercial customers or even, you know, you want to replace your keyboard or whatever, we can do it pretty easy. And so I think, you know, when we talk about making these objects, you know, objects of desire, if you will, and or something precious you're going to, you know, buy and take care of. But in general, we've been pretty diligent about not letting anybody crack them open or repair them, not even try to do that. It was just how the design came together. And now we've been very diligent in our history and learning and just getting a little bit more mature as an organization, a team, how we build products that are a little bit more accessible to get into, a lot more inclusive. And so you start to see that on the laptop. So

there are refinements, yeah, but they're also wholly re-engineered. So we talk about this every time, so I'm going to ask one question about the Pro 7. I bet you can guess what it is. So now it has USBC. Yeah, I don't even know why we want to talk about it. You got there. But it doesn't have, why, why see and not Thunderbolt? You love talking about this topic. I'll give you a stack in a minute. That's because of the Surface Connect, right? Yeah, you have Service Connect.

You get everything out, everything you need out of the product through Surface Connect, especially the Powerhouse customer, like the Power User. And we see that. And so, you know, there's just tradeoffs in anything when you're designing something and what you're doing with performance, battery, how you think about thickness. And so they're all subtle tradeoffs. And at the end of the day, I thought if I didn't do it, I'd come to this Vergecast and you'd do nothing but complain. And so then we did it.

And now you're still complaining, man. This is our role in the market. You do an incredible job at it. You guys are really good at this. All right, let's talk about the ProX. Okay. It's Arm. You're making your own chip.

Service SQ1 chip. You're doing it in partnership with Qualcomm. First question I got when I said, what do people want to know on Twitter is about app support? How should people expect app support to work with Windows on Arm on that device? Yeah, it's a great question. So, you know, the Windows team's done a phenomenal job, specifically because of this product, driving forward.

We talk a lot about how we're going to create silicon or create a product where we can pull the whole ecosystem through and making sure we're making the right investments across the board as Microsoft. And in this one, the Windows team, holy, it's incredible, the work they're doing to basically use emulating technology to run all apps. So you get everything.

You pretty much get everything. I mean, there's going to be a few things that you don't get. I think if you're a user that wants to go into that sort of the product or the app you can't get or the software. you can't get. You don't want ProX anyway. That's not your product. So for the user that's going to use that product, yeah, you get everything. I mean, Chrome runs on it. Chrome's one of the biggest things where when you put the product out there, first feedback. If it's not, it doesn't run Chrome, there's immediate reaction. iTunes is another one. I get Chrome. I can't say that I understand

iTunes. You've said it to a couple times and I'm, it's surprising. It's actually true. I mean, I'm just looking at the data and, you know, and those are good, those are both good products in many ways, but great products, really. And so we want to make sure that our customers, you know, one of the product ethos is, hey, where are our customers at? I mean, hence Android. Where are they at?

And how do we support them? Let's make sure we're doing what we can. Who do you think the customer for the ProX is? You know, we have a bunch of fancy words to talk about that. But ultimately, when we designed it, it was for tech forward mobile professional. That's what it is. And so, you know, if you're leaning into tech

and you want something a little bit cutting edge, this is a great product. It's crazy cool. And if you want something, if you're mobile, what I mean? Mobile is a funny term. So let me see if I can. qualify that for you. If you work on a train, a bus, a plane, if you are in a, you know, you ride and

you ride sharing in a car, you like working at the park or at Starbucks, you know, that's a mobile user to me. They use their, they use their products everywhere. It's perfect. It's perfect. It's, it's perfect for that. So with, obviously with the Qualcomm processor, you built it with Qualcomm. Yeah. You get Always On, you get built in connectivity. You get a bunch of stuff that the arm platform can do. Yeah. Is that what drove you to do arm here, or was it other stuff? No, no. You just couldn't do it with X86?

No, it was, yeah, there's a lot of stuff. So it's not one variable. Like, how do you take this one variable and check off that box and say, no, we've got it. You know, instant on, it works. Like, no, it's not that. Although it's a factor, and there's a lot of variables. I think one of the things is how do you push the form factor forward? So how do we manage, you know, the TDP or how would I say just the power-perf heat profile of a device?

that then dictates how thin you can push it and how much battery you have to put in it. And battery is basically a function of size. And so the bigger it is, the more battery life you have. The bigger it is, the heavier devices. The bigger it is, the thicker it is. And so how can we optimize the entire product line and then give you the best screen possible? Because there's where the trade-off starts to fall in play. The bigger your screen is, the more pixels you push, the brighter your screen is,

the more damage to your battery life in theory. And the more battery life you need, the thicker your battery has to be. And now you're in this trade-off of weight and thickness. And I think in the two and one category, and what we're doing is pushing that category forward means this, making products thinner, lighter, faster with more battery life. It's not like a complex equation. It is hard to solve for, but it's not hard to understand that that's what people need or want. And this chip does all that. Do you think you'll get to a similar sort of design and that sort of trade off on the Intel side?

For sure. For sure. I mean, Intel's doing some incredible work, incredible work. And, you know, but we think about all these products a little bit differently. But yeah, what Intel does, they're incredible partners to us. They've been phenomenal in partnering and designing chipsets together. Yeah, for sure. Easy to understand that. I think it's just their diversity is a great thing.

I think in the Silicon world for sure in general. Like let customers have a choice. I think that's all right. At the end of the day, though, I really want people to buy Surface. So it's what's the right product? Let's build it and what's the right chip to build it from? And I think SQ1 is a phenomenal step forward for a lot of reasons. Why build your own?

Because we wanted to design from the inside out from the beginning. And so when we had the steps, like here's what the product's going to be, here's what we want to deliver, here's what we think we're going to go after. We got a couple of design points we wanted to hit. And so sat with the leaders over at Qualcomm, great conversations, and got to the point of saying, let's do it. What was the biggest thing that you asked for that they didn't have on the shelf? Yeah, it's a combination of so many things. But to get to 5.3 millimeters of thickness with all that performance, it was virtually impossible before we started this program. Okay, so this leads me to the duo, which there's sitting.

That was a big jump. It's got one. No, I've got a segue. That was an incredible jump. You're going to hear it because I feel like you just literally made up a segue. No. But, I really want to talk to the duo. I feel like you just wanted to say I want to get, let's talk about the duo.

No, I mean, it's sitting in front of me and it's like taunting me. That's not my fault. The duo has to Snapchat in 855. Why doesn't have SQ1 it? That's my segue. Because you don't need to push that much wattage through the product. Like, so now the design point for SQ1, it's not a mobile processor. Yeah, I got to, let me clarify.

that for you. A mobile processor is going to push two to three watts, maybe two and a half, something like that. If you're going to get to the SQ1, we're pushing at 7.7.5, when you're pushing power through that thing. It's now a PC architecture part. So the mobile architecture hasn't really moved to the PC. There's been some mobile architecture PCs, but PPC architecture-based products, you know, coming from mobile, that doesn't exist. That's what SQ1 does. You could push two 4K displays at 60 hertz at the same time off of a mobile, not possible, that you can on it, SQ1. So the idea that all the IOs work, that Surface Connect works, like you say, that we can push what people come to have expect from Surface.

That's what that part does. When you put the mobile processing in here, that's what you need. Like, you know, it's just, that's what it is. So you said, I think, very directly, it's not a phone. You said to our friend Lauren Good, it wired. It's not a phone. Yeah, okay. It seems like a phone.

I think I said it. Yeah. Well, one of the, you can fold it the other way. I'm like I'm not, I'm not, you show people making calls with it. It's a great phone. It's not, it's not, that's not, that's not, that's not a, that's not a phone. Okay. I feel like phone is such a limiting word, you know, and then you say, well, smartphone, I don't even know what that means.

And then fablet, I'm not sure what that is. But everything has an identifying factor to it. Even when we started Surface, people are like, so it's a tablet. I'm like, it's not a tablet. It's just not a tablet. It's a surface. I don't know what to say. And you want to categorize it and put it there.

I think if you're going to create a new category, you're going to try and change things, push, push things forward. the minute you put it in a box, I think you're lost. So I've been pretty resistant to that just to not end up there. Not because it doesn't act like a great phone. I mean, once this product gets the market, it's not coming out for a year. It's holiday 2020. You've got a year to figure out how people are going to use it. But right now.

But for everyone listening, ProX is coming out right now. So there's a delta there just to make sure. Right. And then the Neo, which is the larger. They're both holiday 2020. So dual screen is Holiday 2020. Yeah, I think this category kind of lights up 2020. Yeah, it's a good way to say it.

Well, it's funny. The last time I talked to you, I remember we had a very spirited discussion with the Galaxy Fold, and you thought that was a fairly silly design decision. You used a plastic screen. I don't remember saying that, really. I don't think I said that. I may have, but I can't remember. Yeah, plausible deniability is fun.

It turned out to have been a fairly silly design decision at that time. They're doing it again, but that's like a first generation foldable in a different way. You're doing two screens with a hinge, and you think a year from now it's actually going to start taking off. I absolutely think so. So I think we've seen what, you know, dual screen use brings. And, you know, we test thousands and thousands of scenario with thousands of people. We measure so many different things. We do, you know, we measure the brain activity.

We measure how people feel. You know, we ask thousands of questions. And an incredible user research team, human factors team, both from an inclusive design standpoint, just thinking about how everyone would use this device no matter who you are and all the way through. And, yeah, I'm 100% sure at this point. I think I'm a bold statement, but I really do believe in where this category can go. I hope, I'm pretty sure people will see it pretty quick. So just like history of technology-wise, right?

Microsoft is like dominant operating system vendor, dominant platform vendor. There is a form factor shift to mobile. You think Holiday 2020 is a form factor shift to dual screen that lets Microsoft get back to the mobile? I don't think it happens that fast, no. I don't think it happens that fast. I think, yeah, I think it starts. I think you start to understand how much more productive and creative you can be on both Windows and Android. I think that consistency of, you know, whichever operating system you're on,

it still can be productive with two screens. But do you think people are going to buy this as a replacement for their phone? Yeah, I do. It's a substitute. Yeah. I think some people, like other people will just want it because maybe it's cool. Yeah. And then you, you know, there's something about it that is, that's attractive for sure.

And I do. I think people will replace their phone. I think people will buy it as a second device. And I think it works pretty well both ways. So talk about me about Android. What's it like working with Google? what's that relationship? Is this a Play Store device?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Play Store, you know, Google Search. Also Bing Search. It's pretty cool. There's some great concepts between the two companies. But will I Android? Well, because those are the apps you want. It's just that simple?

I don't know how to answer it differently for you. Yeah. Like, because there's hundreds of thousands of apps and you want them. And As Satya and I talk about it, and it's about meeting our customers where they are, where they're going to be. And I don't think the, you know, the mobile application platform is going anywhere. anytime soon. And it's pretty simple. I'm not trying to be smart about it either.

Like literally, Tom, you need the apps. Now, how do we get developers to, you know, look at the APIs that are going to be across the platforms and how you can think about a 360-degree hinge and what a posture does, how we can light up maybe XCloud on the product, you know, device on one side, control on the other. I mean, the game on one side, control on the other. And the way two screens interrupt with each other when you open two apps, like just something as simple as you can kind of see the power of it pretty quick.

I don't know if I'm connected. He's taunting us by showing us the device right now. So you can just see it, right? You see you're in mail and what if you needed to copy something over and drag it over to your last app. Like these sort of things that are complex tasks where you have to contact switch all the time. You know, in this product, they come to life quick. There's a lot going on in the sense that if I were just to open, I'll open calendar for you. So there's calendar.

And I'll just span it between the two screens. You see it come to life there. And then you'll see like you watch the calendar snap on the seam, which I love it. I mean, I celebrate the same. It's huge because it really does put apps in layers for you or structures it. These structured thoughts happen and you watch the brain light up and things are easier. It's pretty cool the things that can happen. And you're now in kind of this place where when you're in a product like this,

it becomes a little bit limitless in what you can create or do if you're a developer. And that's what we're hoping for. So the reason we came out with the products today, which was not a, I won't say it. So it was not a fun decision. We haven't done that. I don't know how to. So we're learning, you know, humbly, I'll tell you we're learning. I don't know if we did the right thing or wrong thing, but we do want to inspire developers.

How much do you think the product will change between now and holiday travel? The hardware won't change at all. So we've been designing this hardware for how long, Pete, three years. My partner in crime, Pete K is here. He's amazing. We've been about three and a half. I don't know. I don't want to be on the record, but something like that.

It's been a long time. I think you know that. You've unpacked it on me a couple of times with your unbelievable spy skills or whatever you got. It's a recording. It's a, it's called reporting. Oh, reporting. Jeez, I've missed that.

Do people cuss on the verge casks? Yeah, go not. Okay, thanks. Just checking. No FCC here, no. You almost got me there. You almost got it. So historically, there's been a lot of companies

that have tried to take Android, Google Play Android, build software experiences on top of them. Yeah. I would say historically, those companies have not been as good at software as Microsoft. Yeah. As good at design as Microsoft.

and Google has pulled them back. Is Google letting you build your own Android experience? I don't think this is a letting conversation at all. I think this is a partnering conversation. I think the conversations we've been having and the work we've done together, pretty cool. Like you can see it. If I go, you know, call it the N-minus-1 screen.

Once you slide over here, check it out. You got Google search here. You got the entire Microsoft feed here. On the left screen is the Microsoft feed on the right screen. Yeah, on the right screen is. Well, you still have the Microsoft apps underneath. But the idea is, here's the way we talked about it. When we sat with Google, Hiroshi and I sat down.

We had this conversation, and it was, look, here's the vision. We want to make the best of Microsoft on the Android that people know. So the idea wasn't, I mean, if you look here, you'll see the app launcher come up just like you would have on an Android phone. And then if you have pulled down from the top, you'll see the settings. Like, we're not trying to be. But that settings looks a little bit different than a standard. You've done some design work there. Of course there's design work, but it's what you know.

Like, I'm not, it's a surface. Is it like an extension of the Microsoft launcher? So the launcher team is a huge part of this program. They're amazing. And yeah, yeah, you think of it that way a little bit. I mean, we're not putting a launcher on top. That's not it. But the launcher team is doing a ton of work, bringing together this connected experience

through the cloud. It's very cool. Very cool. I won't share too much because I can't give too much of it away, but yeah. So what are the gives and takes between Microsoft and Google on this effort? Are we going to see Google search integrating? We're probably not going to talk about that today, Tom. but I think there is a good, not to be rude, but I think it's just there's a lot there.

You know, the company, not in gives and takes, that's not what I mean, but in the sense of, you know, our relationship is, it's building. It's pretty deep rooted and we're partnering. It's the best way to think about it. I don't think it's about give and take. I think it's about what's the right product to build for people. That's how I feel. I think that's how my counterparts over in Google feel, and that's what we're going to go do. So in terms of, I think people will love it, though, for that reason, for that reason, because that's the ethos.

that Windows is the operating system is not the whole point anymore. It's obviously apps and services. Microsoft has moved its entire business there. How are you thinking about Android? You make a whole line of Windows devices. How are you thinking about them as compliments? How are they going to tie together? Yeah.

First off, is Android the future for you? No, no, no, no, no. You want to give customers what they want in the form factor that they're using. Like, if we, it would be silly to be like, let's shove. We've learned this. We've learned this. You know, let's put the wrong operating system, the right operating system on the wrong process.

or the other way around, pick your words, but what's the right operating system for the form factor? And in this case, in mobile devices, Android's the obvious choice. But anything above that, Windows is everything, superior for me in my product design, in the product design. I should say that. I'm not trying to sound arrogant, I promise you. It comes from a humble place, but my belief in Windows is so strong and what you can accomplish with it. Now, to Satya's point, you know, how the OS disappears in the background, I think, you know, Microsoft does an incredible job of that. that, like, you know, enabling people to be more productive and, you know, achieve and all the

great words. But we do a pretty good job. Support for this show comes from Shopify. Every thriving, successful business has to start somewhere. A good place to start is a relatively simple question. What if, given the right tools, I really put my all into this. One tool that can help grow your sprouting business to new heights is Shopify. Millions of businesses around the world rely on Shopify for e-commerce. They offer a host of helpful tools you can take advantage of, from payment processing to analytics to website design.

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Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash track. Terms and conditions apply. So you've got Windows 10X, which is for the Neo, which is the dual screen version of Windows. Is that going to come to different form factors? Is it exclusively for dual screen? No, like right now we're talking about, yeah, think of it this way. Right now it's for dual screen.

I think it's hard to use the word exclusive for anything right now. It's so early. We're learning. And I think that's part of the growth mindset of the company. We have that filter. I definitely have it. I know Pete does. We're going to listen.

We got some time. We got some time. We're going to listen to developers pretty close. We've been looking at the product. for three years, both of them. It's been a while. So I don't actually know the timeframes. I've got to get these timeframes. Somebody's got to help me.

Pete, we've got to figure out the time frame because I can't just randomly answer this one, but I think it's about three years. Okay. It's a blur. But, yeah, you'll learn through this process, and that's a big part of product making. And I'm not saying learn by making mistakes. We're going to take our time and get it right. I would say the form factor you're looking at, this is interesting.

You should just hold it just to feel it. Yes, please. Just feel the hinge. I think the form factor is a third generation form factor. This is not like, hey, it's first-gen, it might work. That's not the case. We literally are on the third gen of that hinge, the third gen of that screen, our partners are incredible, how we integrate the gorilla glass, that's all been failed through. Now, how we get that interaction model perfect and get connected with developers, that's why we came out today.

That was important. How soon can developers get their hands on these things? You know, it depends. We're working on the stability, the product, and the builds, and so forth. And the way hardware works, we got probably a couple more months. They're going to have their hands on it and be running full. speed. Yeah, it's just a matter of shoring up the APIs and making sure we're ready to go. What's pricing on that thing going to be like?

I'm not going to tell you. I'm not going to tell you. Am I going to be happy or unhappy? Happy, super happy. Describe my feelings. Mike, you'll be elated. I like elated. Yeah. I think you'll be pretty pumped about it. I am. And so I think, you know, when you say you're on the third generation of hardware, you're kind of pushing the boundary already on the silicon. You're pushing your boundary on how this thing lays out, how the antennas are coming together.

When I say happy, I think the value of the product you get for how much you're paying, It's there, and that's what matters to customers. So, last question, it's just a big thing about sort of form factor sizes operating systems. You have one big competitor in Apple that it's like pretty good of phones, pretty good at tablets, pretty good at laptops. Yeah, I'd say great at all those things. Google is pretty good at phones. Yeah. Pretty okay at laptops.

Okay. Horrible at tablets. Okay. You guys are really good at laptops, really good at surface devices, which often look like tablets to me. Yeah, no, it's fine. You can say that. Historically not great at phones. I think when you build a product, you just don't think that way.

But you identify it, identify it the way you want. Yeah. There's a gap that you're bridging here between the phone and the tablet. For sure, but I don't think surfaces ever, you know. Does this just fill a hole for both of you, is what I'm saying? Do they get better tablet e-experiences? And do you get an entry point into mobile? Yeah, no.

I don't think so. Okay. I don't think it's that complex, actually. I mean, it's a good theoretical point. But I'm not sure I've thought about it that way. And I can just see, you know, you put this one out next year. it does well, after all for start actually thinking about larger screens and Android devices, and then you build a larger one, right?

A slightly larger one that, like, runs right up against the Neo. Yeah, I don't see that. Like, I can see my roadmap. I know, I know, I hope so. Yeah, I can see it three years out, and I'm not like some, like I have, I've had visions. Visions. That's not, it's not what I mean by you see it, like quite literally like a physically see it of the roadmap. Like, this is not a, we have every iteration of these products out there.

I don't, I think what you're saying is not. where I'm seeing things. Okay. At the end of the day, Windows is doing its job well. It's incredible, literally for anything bigger than this device. Now, anything bigger in between Neo and Duo, I think, is stuck. So when I say anything bigger, I don't see anything smaller than 2, 9 inches, and I don't see anything bigger than this.

When we pick this product, we literally looked, I can't tell you, I mean, for years at screen sizes, what's the right thing to do? But don't we want it to just be like a phone? and maybe it should be like, you know, you identify different products. It's got to be like this, what people love? And eventually we got to, you know, what are people going to do? And what's the right size? And what's the biggest we can make it, but still make it as small as it can be?

And I know that sounds like kind of an oxymoron, but that was the push. We found the design point of where I think the largest product can be in the mobile space. That's what I believe. And so I say that where I could be wrong, but I also say it in that I look at my roadmap and we're not looking at anything bigger than this. I never share my roadmap. You know that. They keep trying, yeah. We've tried, and you're reporting,

spying, whatever it is. Identify some shit sometimes, and it drives me nuts. But I was really frustrated with the leak two days ago. You guys have no idea. Tell me more. That leak came through, and I was like,

What happened? What happened? Basically, the laptop leaked, Surface Pro Leaks, Leak, those three products leaked. I was proud of the team. I'm proud of the way everyone handled it. I'm proud the way we reacted.

He said on stage. You're like, I've seen all the leaks too, but I got one more, you know. Yeah, yeah. You know, I was talking to Yusuf, basically our CMO of Surface, and he was like, don't do it. Don't do it. Okay. But we had a good time thinking about that. So actual last question, I'm getting a wrap-up signal over here.

What's the thing you want people to think about? We've got a year of people thinking about this product. I don't even know what an actual last question is at that point. Like, we already had a last question. Now you have an actual. Journalism. It's pretty good. It's how you do it.

All right. What's a year? What's the thing you want people to focus on in this year? Because you're going to, there are going to be competitors coming out. You're going to hit the second generation of some of your competitors when you come out. How do you want people to think about this device for the next year? Your time about Duo? Yeah.

Okay. Because I really want people to think about the holiday lineup is the surface, you know, PCs basically that we just shipped. We're pretty proud of those. And we want people to buy them. That's true. Then Duo, you know, I think like anything, look at the product that you think is the most interesting to you and where you think you can be more creative. That's what I would push. I think this product's going to be there next year.

If you're not in a hurry, you know, hang out and see what happens and what's happening. But I look at it and go, just hang out. It's going to be all right. Take photos or do whatever it is you do on your phone today for a little bit longer. And then we'll see if we can convince you that you can be more creative on this product. This is great in the context of like the last round of phone reviews where everyone was like, maybe keep your phone for like 20 years. It's good enough, right? It's funny.

I haven't read phone reviews. I don't really look at other phones. I know that I take photos with my phone. Like, I take a lot of pictures. Yeah. But I want to extend that. Like, you know, I told the story today. It was a real story where, you know how many times I start mail on my phone?

And I move to my surface. Like, it's almost an important mail. Like, I'm not confused, like simple mails or short mails or something I need to get out or reply all. Like, I got to get a note out. Sure. But I use my phone as much as anybody. But when it gets to something, I got to be thinking through and editing and so forth. I think the world's.

maybe ready, especially like we're in this era of mobile creativity, so many people creating on the fly that's pretty inspiring, you know, millennials, if you will, Gen Z, my kids, watching my kids blows my mind, but even them, they have to move to their surface. One of them has a PC, you know, but they do. They move and they have to work there, and I just think, why don't we, why don't we get to that next spot? I think this product does that. I'm very interested in see a form factor change come, because I think everything changes in that. I think we've been waiting for a little bit, you know, and I think we've been saying for a long time when the form factor is ready to change, we'll be there. I think this is the time.

Great. Well, Panis, thank you so much for joining us. It's fun. It's always a good time with you guys. Sorry that we did some journalism at you. Yeah. Apologies. You call it journalism. I wasn't judging.

I wasn't judging the verge. I love you guys. You guys are amazing. You're right up the middle in journalism. You do it right. I'm really proud of that. I love that. Yeah, that's very cool.

You got a great group here. Thanks. as we learn more about the Surface Neo and Duo, the folding devices for Microsoft. This is a special episode. Thanks for hanging with us. We got the regular chat show tomorrow, and there's plenty more to talk about.

So check that up.