The Vergecast - Peek, pop, whip, and nae nae

Episode Date: September 11, 2015

A day after Apple’s huge event, we ran through all the big announcements. The Hype Seat has transformed into the Skype Seat so that Casey Newton can join Dieter Bohn, Jake Kastrenakes, and Chris Welch. Is the Apple TV just a super Roku? Just how Surface-y is the new iPad Pro? If you 3D Touch a 2D screen in a 1D forest, does it make a sound? All these questions will be answered with a Live Shot, except instead of a moving picture it’s a podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings, mobile accomplishers. Welcome to the Vergecast. I am Dieter Bone, and we have Vergecast rookie, Chris Welch. Hello. Here with us to talk about Apple. We have Vergecast Veteran, Jake. Creston. Damn it.

Approximately. Castranakis. I want to put the R after the first K for some reason. I don't even know where it goes. Yeah, you do. Just tell me I'm a horrible person, and it's fine. Nilai is not back yet from California. He did not take the red eye like I did.

And let me tell you, he's the smarter man. So you're probably wondering who's in the hype seat, but I want to tell you that today we don't have a hype seat. We have, and I'm really excited about this, instead of a hype seat, we have a Skype seat. And it's Casey Newton. What's up? How are you?

I'm excited. I'm very excited and I want to be able to perform any sort of remote hype checks. Skype checks. And I will be providing Skype checks throughout the show. Okay, so we are going to talk about Apple, I think. So you just got back precisely and nothing else. From San Francisco where you were at the Apple event and saw everything. What was the most exciting thing that you saw?

Are you just going to jump right in? No, number one. Like, what was your number one out of the event? My number one out of the events is probably Eddie Q's wardrobe change. He switched into the shirt that was just, Casey, back me up here. It was great. It was incredible. And it was one of the few things that Mark Herman had not reported in advance.

So, okay, I don't know. We can, I mean, the most amazing thing I personally saw was probably the iPad Pro. That doesn't mean I think it's the best thing. or the thing I'm going to buy, but in terms of like a technical achievement, the iPad Pro definitely has to be, like the coolest thing they created that day. Casey?

I agree that the iPad Pro looked really nice, but for me, the most exciting thing was 3D Touch, which came as a total surprise because we had been dismissing it as right-click for iPhone. But, man, once you start playing around with it, though, you start to wonder how you lived without it. Really?

Just the ability to have quick actions that you can perform from your home screen, I think, is a big deal. You know, so you long press or force press on Instagram and go right to the camera. You 3D touch on the text message icon and can just, like, you know, fire off a quick text. It's all minor stuff, but I think over the lifetime of the use of your phone, it really is going to save time. And it just feels like a really cool evolution of the operating system. All right. How about you guys? Like, you weren't there, but, like, you saw everything.

You reported a ton of it. What are you most excited by? I mean, the iPad Pro is definitely the biggest thing they announced in terms of pure size. But I'm not sure I'm really too compelled by that. I'm kind of curious about who it's for. I'm not even sure Apple's really sure who it's for just yet. I guess we'll find that out in a couple months. But, I mean, it's pretty exciting.

The whole stylist thing, that all turn around is pretty interesting. Finally realizing that this is the right form for a stylus. Can I say the weird, like, cool thing about the stylus? The pencil. Pencil. The cool thing about it is like this tilt functionality. So when I was using it, if you just, you know, press down as with a normal pencil, it writes like a pencil does. But if you sort of lean it on its side and do like kind of a shading gesture, then in this drawing app that I was using, it sort of, you know, it looked like the way it would look if you shaded your pencil.

So I just thought the fact that the pencil sort of knows where it is and space and time made for kind of a cool thing. Now, I'm sure there are other stylists on the market that do that. But I think that there are probably a lot of people who haven't tried out a stylus on an iPad yet. And it's kind of a nifty feature. Jake. I think I might be the only one, but the Apple TV. I was waiting. It's the first time we've said the word TV on the show.

No, I'm really excited. I mean, the idea of – so for me, I don't know any game consoles. and I know that it's really easy to just like ignore all of the, well that... Behind for not owning a games console. Come on, man. Yeah, but then I have to spend like hours and hours playing video games just to justify owning this thing.

It has to like own multiple copies of Madden. No, you don't... I don't... It's just too... It's a very big, just like, emotional investment. And at this point in my life, I don't know if I can make it. Then that's why you wanted to have to do. why I want an Apple TV, because then I can just like, like, I bought transistor.

When it came out on the iPhone, I'm like, yes, this is it going to be great. I'm going to play transistor. I love Bastion. And I'm like, I don't really want to play this because I only have an iPhone 5S and it's like a tiny screen. And like I tried to airplay it over to my TV. But then there's the delay and it's like I can't control it because I have to look at my iPhone to like touch the right things and then look back up with my TV to see what's happening. So like those, that kind of like. above casual game, but not quite full 3D, like destiny, whatever.

I'm like super looking forward to playing with that kind of stuff. So hopefully that gets a little bit more... I have a question. All right. My question, which is, is the game developer community going to show up in huge numbers for Apple TV games, right? Because like on iOS as it stands right now, they're only really, like, the only reliable way to make money is to...

offer these sort of terrible in-app purchases, right? You limit the amount of time somebody can play a game in a day. And for a variety of reasons, you know, some of which are the app stores fault. Game developers just can't make a ton of money off of the app store. So my question is, you know, why do we assume that all of a sudden game developers are going to just start racing to create all these incredible experiences on Apple TV? Yeah, no, I mean, I think Casey's right. Like, I don't think that the Apple TV is really going to spur all that much,

more development of games for iOS. Like, they're not in a great place for the most part. They're like a few gems. What? I mean, I think it will? I don't know if the Apple TV will, but to say that iOS games aren't in a great place is like, they're, it's not like the best, most perfect place. And like, there's a bunch of in-app purchase annoyances.

But like games on iOS compared to games on Android. Yeah, but like, why can't I buy like a game that is, you know, the quality of a game you get for the Nintendo DS on, you know, my iPad, I would happily pay $30, $40 for like a good game. But like the best thing I can get is Bastion and transistor. And like... How much do the Final Fantasy ports cost? Right, but you're talking about like a final thing? Like...

Yeah, no, like, don't get me wrong. There's some good stuff, especially for people like me who are out of the loop of like the game console cycle. But it could be like a bit better. Like, I don't understand why they're not competing with handhelds in that way. Right. Okay, we should step back and come back to Apple to you. So, Casey, set the scene at the Bill Graham Center. Like, it was a huge venue.

It was. And it was actually really, like, pretty cool inside. There was some resentment in San Francisco because Apple had rented out Bill Graham Civic Auditorium, you know, one of the city's larger concert venues for a full three weeks. Like Apple was just inside this venue for three weeks setting the stage for this event. And so we sort of didn't know what to expect inside because the venue seat 7,000 people, which seemed like kind of an insane number of people to bring to an Apple event. But then once we got inside, we saw that they had built this kind of really like clever and unusual structure

where there was this giant stage at the front of the room where they really could have like fit a car. I got like a little bit excited we were going to see an Apple car yesterday because like there was just so much space. And then to either side of the stage, there was a hands-on area. So to the right side of the stage, you could check out the iPhones and the iPads and to the left side of the stage, you could check out the Apple TVs. And like the Apple TVs, they had in this super dark, like sleek sort of like futuristic living room that looked really nice. Like on the ceiling, there were like kind of like star. It looked like there were stars, right, Dieter? Like, so it was, it was like a very sophisticated, elegant presentation.

And, you know, they wound up being about 1,500 people who attended the event. And I want to say about 1,000 of those were Apple employees. Judging by the applause, yeah. Yeah. But, like, I actually think it's cool that they're letting more Apple employees go. Like, they're the people who made this stuff. And I think, like, some of them, like, they only know about their announcement, right? like they don't even know what the other teams are working on.

So like I sort of feel like they have just as much a right to be there as, you know, the people who are writing about it. Was the vibe of the keynote just sort of, was it just like chill? Like, Schiller had a bunch of energy. Cook was like scowling sometimes, but he was like, you know the thing where like you try and like show like assurance and like power and like, man,

I am so confident right now, but you just come off looking angry. Oh, yeah. It's like how I do. And that's like, that's how, like, I got that vibe off of him the whole time. Like, he, like, felt really good. Well, they started off really chill because there was no, like, super over-the-top video to, like, lead into this event. Like, last year they had the okay go rip-off kind of thing. And then there was the Bill Hater thing for WWDC.

So they kind of realized maybe that's not the best way to intro these events. So it was just... Yeah, and then the order would weird, right. Because it would, like, typically they're like, all right, here we go, updates. All right, iPhone. We know you're here for iPhone. And then like, oh, there's some other stuff. But now, but they like, they basically flipped everything because it was Apple Watch.

Then they went to iPad. Then they went to Apple TV. Yeah. And then they ended on iPhone. I feel like messing with the order sort of removes the value judgment on their own products. Like, they're not saying necessarily that iPhone is most important, even though, like, it is their biggest thing. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if there's too much to read into the order that they presented them

But, you know, putting the iPhone last, and what did they, they opened on the Apple Watch, right? Yeah. I don't know. Get me a little more interested, maybe. Yeah, I guess so. But overall, this wasn't like a, like a rah, rah, oh my God. It was like, hey, they did an Apple event. Cool.

It's good. I don't know. But it's interesting because this is one of the most packed events that they've done. Yeah, and it was like the whole thing ran a little over two hours, I think, like two hours, 20 minutes or something. by the way somebody owes me money for that because everyone's like now they won't go over an hour and a half they definitely were always going to go at least two hours

Casey how did you feel about the scene like the whole event in the keynote? How was One Republic? It sounded bad. One Republic is not my favorite band and you know at the last Apple event we went to they ended with the weekend

who actually like sang an incredible song and did an awesome job And so I think like we Apple Live bloggers are sort of used to snarking at the end of the at the keynotes because they often do pick these like super basic bands to come in and perform. But like after the weekend, you're like they could bring up anybody. They could bring up, you know, like Philip Glass to like, you know, play something. That would be amazing. Wouldn't that have been amazing? He just like came up and played like 433.

But anyway, instead we got we got one republic. And it was so funny because as Tim Cook starts to introduce these people, like you're trying to figure out in your head, like, who's it going to be? You know, like, among the people who are going to the event, I would say the number one, like, sort of, like, water cooler topic outside the venue was, like, who do you think the musical artist is going to be? And he starts, he's like, you know, they're a band. I'm like, okay, so it's a band.

He's like, they had five platinum singles off their last record. I was like, well, it's not a rock band because rock bands don't have any platinum singles people. You know? So, like, that was immediately when I was like, something, is not right here. And then Tim Cook said that, like, the most important thing about them was that they were good human beings. I don't know if you're that part.

And, like, which could be true. I don't know anything about them. Like, for all I know, they're, like, die-hard humanitarians. But then they just, like, came out, and they started singing, counting cars, I think, is the name of the song, which is a song by white people that has a gospel breakdown in it. And so, like, by the time the gospel breakdown came around, I was just, I was not having it.

I was over one republic. Yeah, I mean, I always walk out on these bands and I feel terrible about it Because I want to go and go to the hands-on area because it turns out I'm there to work And so I don't know I like turn my back on the weekend at the WWC event It's like the worst thing I've ever done in my entire life But a while ago I got to turn my back on you too which was the best thing I ever did in my entire life Okay We were talking to Apple TV we should just do it

So we should run down the base It looks like a really tall Apple TV. And then it comes with a remote that has motion sensing. Do we know how it does the motion sensing? It's not like there's a wee barometer, right? It's a gyroscope and accelerometer. It's got a touch surface on the top. It's got a bunch of buttons.

There's a TV button, which I guess is home. There's a Siri button. There's a menu button, which it'll double his back. And there's volume up and down buttons. And the volume buttons and also turning your TV, TV on and off works via CEC. HDMI CEC? Yeah, which what does CEC stand for?

Not a lot of TVs have at this moment. Really? I just figured like the thing has been around for like three, four years. Recently would you have had to have purchased a nice TV to have that? 2013, 2014, so pretty recent. My problem with CEC is like I'm pretty sure my sound bar supports it. I'm pretty sure my TV supports it. Like the Xbox supports it and like all these things.

But they, none of them like understand each other's states and like all of them want to be the boss. of your entire sound system, your entire AV system, and I never know which one to pick to let it be the boss. And so I just give up and use a Logitech remote. Oh, my God. What is happening? Look at my family. How's it going?

We were doing a... It's called a Super Roku. That's all right. Yeah. Hi, Neal. I'm not even laughing at me. If you're not watching the video stream, Neil, I just showed up in San Francisco next to Casey.

And then they, I don't know what happened to the sound there. We're talking about the Apple TV. We haven't said anything mean about it yet, so it's really good that you're here. Super Roku. Super Roku. Right? I mean, they have to deliver the next piece of it. The next piece of it is a streaming service.

But, like, they built an interesting riff on the existing UI. They built a remote that other people have built. And they've got good ideas about search. But all of the services are exactly the same as everybody else's services, right? You can watch Netflix on it. You can watch Hulu on it. You can write movies. They need to deliver an actual streaming service.

And I was talking to Walt about it, and his whole theory is they need to put the boxes out there so they can walk into meetings with content companies and cable companies and say, look, we got all those fucking boxes are doing this with or without you. I'm sure what it means to do it without them, but that's really – they just need leverage, right? They need the install base as big as somebody else's install base. But until then, it's a super rookoo. Right. And so, but the problem is a regular Roku costs less than $150, which is a starting price of an Apple TV. Well, do you think the fact that Apple has this, like, army of developers who will, like, theoretically make a bunch of apps for it, gives it, like, an edge over the Roku? Or is that just going to be, like, boring, you're never going to use that.

You're just going to open up Netflix. Well, it, that's the whole game is if they don't get the apps and they don't get the streaming service, it's just, it's a super Roku. And, like, and even, like, down to, like, they're, the things that it can and can't. search, like mirrors pretty well what the other sort of limited universal searches are. Like, it's not, like, we guarantee you universal search. I was imagining a world where if you wanted an app on the Apple TV, you have to get buy-in to their universal search paradigm, otherwise no good. And they didn't do that.

So it's a super Roku. So the question is, like, they need developers to make crazy apps. And what apps are coming that, like, like, you know, like, you. that are going to change the way you think about TV? Because I'll tell you what, it's not. It's not the guilt app. It's not sitting there and like paging through. Yeah, I don't know what a good TV app is or looks like, but I want them.

It's just like this weird desire that like I'm going to download 100 TV apps and use none of them. The MLB app looked cool, right? Like the idea that the app actually sends you a notification that says, hey, your favorite player is having an at bat in another game. Just tap here and we'll take you to it right now. like that's great. That's something that you're never going to get in linear TV. Like that actually looked like the future to me.

But, you know, somebody pointed out to me later that other, that that's just like the MLB app and that app can run on, you know, any number of platforms. So. Well, that notification come no matter what I'm watching? Like, will apps be able to ping, pop up notifications while you're in another app or watching other show? I'm sure you can turn it off. But as far as I know, yeah, they can send up.

Wow. Managing notifications that are like to use and sound like fun. reason you would want to actually have like a TVOS right right is like so that you could have a notification layer that sat on top of the operating system that would allow for that kind of thing what did you do to nilai he's gone i told him he had to get out of my bedroom it's not appropriate that he's in here he wasn't invited and he needed to go so so i'm going to buy an apple tv um even though i've got a fire stick uh and i've got uh i actually have a rocoo too uh and i've got an Xbox one. I got a Wii

I don't have a PS4, but whatever. No, I'm going to buy an Apple TV simply because my current Apple TV is just like, it's slow and terrible interface. I mean, this interface isn't really much different. It's pretty much the same thing with a new coat of paint, and it's like a lot easier to like move around and navigate, but

fundamentally it's still the same setup. Here's the thing moving around and navigating on it. Everybody that I talk to says the remote is hella twitchy. If you like, if you're, if you're thumb moves just a little, like,

you know, you use an iPhone with your Apple TV and, like, you think you're sliding over and said, you go like four icons over. Apparently it's like

that times five right now the way that it's tweaked. I mean, it's not that big of a zone for you to move your thumb on, so they've got to make it pretty sensitive. Isn't the Apple TV remote, the like current one,

the like, the lesson that like Apple teaches all of its employees about how like brilliant its design is. It has like five buttons or whatever. Am I making this up? No, hearing it.

So it's just very interesting that like, forget the directional pad. You can swipe everywhere. Which like, no, it seems cool. I'm interested. But yeah, I'm very worried how you will like easily start and stop and go where you actually want to on that. Yeah.

And instead of like, so, okay, the interface innovation is Siri. So that's different. And then the other innovation that they talked about is if you like just rest your thumb on the little pad and you're like looking at a movie poster. You can, like, wiggle your thumb around, or the icons move around, and then some of them, like, movie studios can actually make them 3D. So it's, like, one of those really cheap holograms. I don't know. Sony's done that kind of thing, like on the PlayStation Store.

They've done that same kind of parallax effect where it's, like, one thing on top of the other, and as you move around, it'll shift around. So that's... But let me say something nice about the remote, if I can. I don't know if you can. The fact that it has a touch surface, uh, is going to, I think, really delight a lot of people because it means that you can use the interface

without looking at the remote. Most of our experience of using remotes is like, okay, which button does this or that, right? Have you ever used a five-way directional pad? You don't have to look at it. Yeah, I think that that is true for the most part. But we live in a world of swipes and taps now. And I think being able to build that into your content,

And remote is something that people are going to like. I'll say I used my Apple mouse upside, like backward at least once a week and get totally puzzled about like why my mouse is moving in the wrong direction. Who is turning your mouse around? Is Chris Welch doing some sort of office prank? Once a week I'll be wandering around the office with my laptop and my whole computer will freak the shit out. It'll be frozen.

I can't move the mouse around. I have no idea what's happening. And it turns out someone's sitting on my desk. and they set their laptop on top of my touchpad on my desk, and I'm like 30 feet away, but the Bluetooth is still connected, and it's just like clicking constantly. Anyway,

here's my last word on the Apple TV. It's okay that they didn't score the crazy subscription deals. It's really good that they are trying something innovative with the remote. It's really good that they're doing the series stuff. But my basic complaint is that they didn't go far enough with the interface. And, you know, Neil, I think, said that. the other day, like, series supposed to get, be more and more proactive

and know what I want to watch. It should be able to sit down and show me the most recent stuff I watch across all of my services. Like, when I go to Netflix, the first thing I go to is, like, what I last watched, because I'm probably going to want to watch another episode of whatever that show is. But I also watch stuff on Hulu and on HBO now

and blah, blah, blah, and I should just have a cue of, like, the last stuff that I watched, and it should be able to guess, like, you know, man, You've been watching a lot of cutthroat kitchen. Maybe you should try another cooking show and this other service that you forgot about. Yeah, it's interesting that the first thing you choose is the service and not what you want to watch.

Right. And what you open it up for is to find something to watch. Right. And that's the polar opposite of the cable model. Like cable is like, you turn it on and there's a show and then you start moving around from within that. And I just, like, they had a chance to do something, I think, more ambitious than,

yay more icons on screens, more grids. It is still a big grid. Yeah. All right. Anybody else want to throw a final word on this Apple TV before I go to the Money Zone? It just feels like it's halfway there to me. Like, I liked it better than I expected to, but it's until there's that like content piece with the actual subscription offering, it's just going to feel like it's in beta testing. Yeah.

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It's huge. So how big does this thing feel in your hand? Because I saw photos and it looks just enormous and it's as heavy as the first iPad was, which was not light by any means. Yeah, it doesn't feel heavy. It's like, basically it's not that dissimilar from, like, I don't know. Imagine the size of your 13-inch MacBook Air, like cut out, like break it in half and there you go. Like the keyboard part.

Is that a fair representation, Casey? Yeah, I think so. It's a luxury for sure. It feels similar in the hand as the iPad Air 2. It is just physically more massive. So it does way more, but it actually felt deceptively light at least in the 30 seconds that I actually held it in my hand. I suspect if you held it up for an hour, maybe your arms would get a little more fatigued than they would with an iPad Air. But it definitely looks large and almost comically large, I think,

unless you are just really in love with the idea of a Microsoft Surface that runs iOS. So can either of you imagine using this without a keyboard attached? I could, yes, to watch a movie in bed with its four speakers. Like, I would buy this instead of a TV for my bedroom. Would you ever take this outside your home at any point? Right? This is a super hard question because the thing is meant to be a laptop replacement. Right.

And again, like the tablet that can replace your laptop. That's a really good tagline. Have we ever heard that for Indy? It definitely sounds clever. I wonder if anybody's ever used that tagline before. Yeah. But can it replace your laptop? I don't think so.

My impression is that, you know, down the road, this is going to be, like, maybe a solid laptop alternative. And right now, iOS is still, like, you know, it's iOS. Like, I imagine that if you are, you really prefer touchscreens, maybe this makes sense for you. But, like, there's no way you're going to get as much done without, you know, an actual, like, an attached keyboard and a trackpad or a mouse. Like, is this for the future they're preparing? So I was rewatching the keynote this morning because when you're actually at the keynote, taking photos of the keynote, you don't watch anything other than can I get a picture of an executive when their mouth is in a funny position because they're talking. And I did. I managed to get pictures of people not with weird mouth positions.

Anyway, and Tim Cook led off the iPad discussion with like, yo, this is our vision for what the first. future of all computing is. It's a paint of glass that does magical things. That's funny. I didn't hear that at all, but that's so interesting that they're just laying it out like that. Right. And, you know, this is where I get all, you know, angry about open computing platforms. But I don't want the iPad to be the future of computing until I can do arbitrary things on the iPad that I don't have to get Apple's permission to do. And Android has similar problems, but at least Android at least has the patina of you're free to screw around with it however you want. It has other problems too, which is like the apps for tablets just still aren't there.

Send your angry emails about the comment I just said about Android apps to Casey at theverge.com. I mean, it's not, I'm not wrong. Okay, we should run down the specs, though. Who wants to give me some spec talk? Oh, that's well. 12.9 inch display. Yes. It's got a resolution of 2732 by 2048.

for a PPI of 264. So it's a retina display. It's got four speakers, first for an iPad, and the A9X chip, which promises desktop performance, which we'll have to see how true that holds up. And you've got your pencil, your smart keyboard,

but there's no 3D touch on the iPad Pro, which I found pretty interesting. Yeah, like the 3D touches right-click for the iPhone, and you'd think that you'd want it. It's a professional kind of thing. You'd think you'd want that on an iPad. Also, the other, the spec you didn't mention is 4 gigs of RAM,

which we only know because Adobe, screwed up and told us. If this is a future computing, tell me how much RAM is in the damn thing. Yes. Also, like, the lack of 3D touch, for me, like, even if I wanted one of these things, I would just wait until it had 3D touch.

Like, this seems like the sort of thing where, like, in six months, they'll just quietly refresh it with 3D touch and, like, you'll feel shitty that you spend $1,000 on it. It's possible I'm making too much of 3D touch, but I don't know. Every once in a while I get excited about a software feature. A hard word.

A hard feature. A hard software feature. But, you know, there are a few reporters who I know who are very excited about the idea of an iOS workstation like Harry McCracken and Federico Vatici over at MacStories. And they often write about how they've built these workflows for themselves. and, you know, they're doing high-quality work, and I sort of get the appeal. I actually, before I had a laptop, my laptop equivalent was a first-generation iPad

and a third-party keyboard that I used. And it was actually, like, it was really pretty effective for the things I was using it for, which was mostly, like, taking notes and writing, you know, like nothing super intense. But, you know, the other thing I would just note is that, for all these claims of, you know, like, desktop class performance, honestly, like the iPads usually are better than desktop performance, right?

Because the apps open quicker, right? Like, the speed of the iPad, I think, is one reason that a lot of people prefer it over the That's because you can only, well, I guess on iPad now you can run two things at a time. And then you might have some other stuff running in the background. You don't know. Who knows? Possible. No, I don't know.

Maybe I'm just like being an old fuddy-duddy here. But you know what's really cool on a 12.9 inch screen, more than two apps at a time. You know what's cool? Windows, it turns out. Yeah, I mean, so I should ask, how does this compare to the Surface Pro for you? Because Service Pro is basically the same product, except it is more on the laptop side. It has a kickstand. It has a better keyboard.

The keyboard thing for the iPad, I was like, oh, hey, this is fine. I was like, oh, wait, this is not that good. Right? I don't know. That's a really hard thing for me to say. Desktop OS. Yeah, well, if this thing ran Windows, I would probably buy it, which is a crazy thing for me to be saying right now. But I just, I, the apps and like the ecosystem and like the games and like some of like the single task stuff is going to be better on the iPad Pro than what the some of those similar stuff.

I think I'm willing to bet that Microsoft Office is a more enjoyable experience on the iPad Pro than it is on. you know, a surface, that's probably not actually true. But in terms of like, this is my only computer, I want to make sure that the ceiling on what I can do with it is, you know, it's set by like the power of the device and my ability to do creative things with it, not like arbitrary software limits. It's interesting. I feel like when everyone talks about the iPad as like a creation device,

like there's this vision that we're just like constantly banging away doing work. And like most of the time we're just like browsing the web or watching Netflix or whatever. Wow, you're super fired. I know. I mean like I'm not bringing my iPad to work to like get stuff done. But like even on the iPad, I still can't like browse the web as well as I can on my MacBook. True. Really?

I think it's a more relaxed and enjoyed. enjoyable experience, but like, I'm opening, like, 50 tabs and, like, going through them as quickly as I can. Right. And, like, I mean, the iPad Pro is probably better, but, like, my iPad holds, like, maybe two tabs at a time. Yeah. Before it, like, forgets about them and has to, like, take a minute to load it up. Yeah, so far as really bad with it. I mean, that was always the complaint about the RAM on the iPhone, right? If they just put more RAM on there, maybe I want to reload pages all the time.

Okay, so here's the question, like, that everybody's asked me, every single person, who knows that I've touched the iPad Pro asks me this question and I want you to answer it, Chris Welch. Who's it for? If you're an artist or some kind of creative, I guess. I mean, that's my only real, like,

surefire customer for this thing is someone who's going to really use that pencil Casey until they're dying day. If you ever bought a, is it Waycom or Wacom? If you ever bought a Wacom tablet. Have you ever bought a Waucom tablet and then you do

the tweeters on it? You can, I guess you can get some Facebooks and you can sorry, sorry, Casey. No, that's actually, I want you to keep going with that character. I like that picture. But yeah, if you ever like purchased a separate tablet and stylus to like do your creative work and you use

iOS, like now you have this alternative. But I think if like you're not an architect or an illustrator, it's not clear to me that you couldn't actually just get buy with an iPad Air 2, which remains a just surpassingly beautiful and fun to use device. And they didn't bother updating it at all. Yeah, so when does they don't?

It's that good. It didn't need anything. Well, they're trying to keep the specs ahead, I think, on the pro, right? And so everything else just falls behind. Yeah. Which is not the most exciting. So the iPad Pro, it's meant to be for professionals for like the enterprise and for IBM and Cisco to distribute to all these companies and have the entire Salesforce work off of them.

And I also, I just don't get that. I'm not super smart about enterprise stuff, but I know that if I am buying a thousand laptops for my sales workforce, I'm not, I'm going to want to buy the one that's a little bit cheaper, but still gets the job done. And so if by some magic of, you know, perfection, IBM has created a great iOS app ecosystem for all my internal software, I'm going to buy them iPad errors because they're just a little bit cheaper and, like, they probably don't need the stylises. and I can buy a pretty good Logitech keyboard for it that's going to be good enough. Or I'm going to buy, more likely, like, $600 Windows laptops. So it's an amazing, beautiful piece of hardware, and, like, there will be people who will buy it

just because it's the best iPad. There will be people who buy it because they're like, oh, yeah, I like drawing. I'm going to do that. But I don't know. I don't think this solves the iPad problem of, like, what are they really for beyond, like, watching Netflix?

Netflix in bed and playing Solitaire and whatever else people do with iPads. No, it's not going to be slowing down sales either. I mean, this is not going to be like a mass market product for a lot of people. That's still the air too. And the mini four, which looks really nice if you want the smaller version. Casey? I have an interesting comment. A viewer just tweeted at me.

H. Steroid says he, I'm assuming he, but if you or she, I apologize, is an architect and there's no way in hell I see using the new iPad Pro. I need 3DS, Max, and CAD stuff to work flawlessly. And you want to work flawlessly when you're... Well, they did show a CAD thing of the Bay Area with some insane number of points and lines and stuff. Yeah, there may be some software opportunity there. You know, interestingly, I think Neely said that he wanted one.

Yeah. I think he may fall into that category if I just want the best thing. so bring that best thing to me. But, you know, I like like my iPad more than most people. Like, it's very trendy at the verge. It's like, oh, I have six iPads, but I never use them. But like, I'm not that person at all. Like, I keep it by my nightstand when I wake up in the morning.

Like, that's what I'm using to skim Twitter to check my email, even to like fire off email replies. I use it to read books. I buy books from the I bookstore. And then, of course, I watch a lot of video on it. Why the high bookstore? Why not the Kindle store? I guess I just think so. It's an ecosystem thing.

I'm just saying you're a classic I-Virger and I really do live in Apple Universe. And, you know, what can I tell you? I mean, you know, Kittle makes nice up to you. I have a Kindle and occasionally I use it, but I love the iPad screen. And it's just like, frankly, the iPad is the place where I already am. And so that sort of makes sense for me to have. my books there too. But I have another incoming tweet I would like to read.

I mean, Jared says that he does music on OS10, Logic 10 Pro, and he says he's looking forward to using an iPad Pro to make music. So maybe musicians. Yeah. And I can do like three or four HD streams at once an I movie if you want to be editing that stuff. Yeah.

Like I don't have any doubt that like some of these particular experiences are going to be great. but I just don't know if they're going to be like, I don't know. It's not, I don't know. It's not, I can't do random stuff like I can on a computer, I guess. I agree. It really sounds like, I feel like I'm like recycling an argument that's five years old and everyone's going to get really mad at me for like, I don't know, you can be totally productive with an iPad and you can.

Oh no, it's not that locked down. They like they've built all the tools for apps to talk to each other. And they mostly have, but they're still like. So, I mean, my thinking is also that this is not necessarily for us. This is for people who are growing up with touchscreens and one day iOS is going to be the all

powerful and like customizable operating system that we wanted to, but it's going to be touch first. It is going to be designed from the ground up to work with this type of device and this is the type of device that people are going to prefer in 10 years. I could be totally wrong about that because I can't imagine preferring this in 10 years.

Are you talking me into this? I mean, just look at the price again before you make that. I think Jake is making an interesting point. You know, the original argument around the iPad was, is this device for consumption or is it for creation? And then over time, it became clear that you really could use it for both. It so happens that I use it almost entirely for consumption. I think it's a great device for consumption. But Apple, I think, believes its future is in making it feel more and more like a device for creation.

So maybe there will be some sort of generation gap there. But maybe people just keep using it to watch videos, and maybe that'll be fine. Yeah, that'll be great because it's got all those speakers. Okay, I'm going to stop harping on this in a second. Someone said, you can kind of get three apps if you put one video in a picture and picture. But like, my basic work set up is I need Slack, I need a web browser with a bunch of tabs, and, you know, I kind of need Twitter or a text editor. So like, I can't work without three things open.

And I can, man, I can pull that off in a Chromebook because, I can make those little web tabs and like it's going. But on an iPad, you like, you kind of, at some point you have to choose to like let something sit in the background. And no matter how fast the multitasking is, it's, there's still like a, that thing's over there now. I don't know. And that's, you know, that's the thing that makes it feel not pro to me. But the question is, am I just like old and like nobody actually needs that? And I don't actually need that.

I just need to stop thinking that I need that. I don't know. I mean, I feel the same way, though, right? And you're not old. But you're a millennial. Yes, I'm extraordinarily. I think I'm like 15 at this point. What's the bottom for millennials?

Like, what's the youngest you can be and still be a millennial? I'm 35 and I'm a millennial by some definitions. It's a state of mind. Yeah. The best thing about my life is that I, like, caught the very last year that you could still call yourself Gen X. and I'm really happy about that. Is it because Gen X is a cooler name? Because Gen X is cool.

We're cooler period. I mean, there's a own competition between us. I mean, what's the movie that's like, yes, we're millennials. We self-identify as millennials. What's the movie? Because for me, I've got Ethan Hawken Reality bites, right? Like, I mean, come on. We're cooler.

We have the last airbender. Yeah, there you go. So, have you heard a SoftLayer? They deliver a cloud that's built from the get-go for security. So if you've got a business, you need your applications and you need your computational workloads, and they're unique to your business. So you need a cloud service that is unique to your needs. And SoftLayer is one of the only companies that can actually pull that off.

They provision dedicated servers and virtual servers from a single seamless platform, so you don't have to pick whether you want to make your own servers and have one for each of your things, or if you just want the virtual cloud crazy server stuff. Everything is available on demand. It's all connected to the same open API. They're all connected to a global private network. And you can scale your workloads up and down super quick, and you have ample storage space for all of your storage intensive needs.

If you're storing a lot of video or whatever, it's something that businesses do. And so the thing you might not know about SoftLayer, if you haven't heard us talk about them before, is there an IBM company. And IBM uses SoftLayer as its own Cloud Infrastructure Foundation for all of their IBM Cloud products and services. So even if you're not looking for infrastructure, you can still benefit from SoftLayers infrastructure whenever you use anything that IBM makes in IBM Cloud. So there you go. So if you are excited by all of this cloud infrastructure stuff that I've been talking, about, you could get $500 of cloud infrastructure off of your plan by visiting soft layer.com slash podcast.

You can order bare metal servers, virtual servers, storage, networking, security services from your choice of data centers. They have 24 of them around the world, and all those servers and services are all connected to SoftLayer's unique network of networks, which separates public, private and management traffic so that you are not going to have your business slowed down because Chris Welch is streaming Netflix. They keep it all separate. You can also automate control of your cloud infrastructure with a granular API or you can just use their customer portal. So there you go. Visit soft layer.com slash podcast to get started with your $500 off of servers, servers, storage, network,

and security on a cloud built for security from SoftLayer. I felt that was the appropriate ad to put in at the end of the iPad Pro discussion. Don't you? Hmm. Yeah. So we didn't talk about the Mini 4 other than Chris Welch doing exactly what Apple did. It was like, hey guys, there's an iPad Mini 4. It's not bad.

Goodbye. It's the iPad Mini we should have got 10 months ago. Right? Yeah, the Mini 3 will go down as one of the saddest product provisions in Apple's history. It came and it went and now you've got the iPad Mini. 22 and the four. Don't even ask about three. Everybody at the verge has really

strong feelings about tablets right now. Because we don't know what they're for. Android tablets of like, you can't get small ones anymore that are any good. Nobody's trying anymore. Samsung decided to maybe make one this year, I guess.

They're like, yeah, sure, here's a tab, whatever. Like, the iPad Pro is the only tablet of note. See what I did there? Note. In the past 12 months. right, at least, since the iPad or two, honestly. Like, nobody else is trying.

Don't talk to me about the Nexus 9 because I bought a Nexus 9. And when I did it, I was like, I'm going to regret doing this. And you know what? I was totally, totally right. You told you so. I did tell me so. All right, iPhone 6. So I can run down the specs for the iPhone 6.

It starts at a lovely, capacious 16 gigabytes of storage, which is the best. it has an A-9 chip with an embedded M-9 chip in it, which means that you can holler, hey, Siri, at it whenever you feel like it, to start a Siri search, which is what they should have always done that. I don't know. There's a 12-mapixel camera, which is going to be a very, very big deal, I think. Is the sensor the same size?

I don't think they said anything about it can get any better. I don't know the full details of that yet. It has a faster touch ID. It's got more support for faster LTE and faster Wi-Fi, presumably using like Mimo or crazy antenna stuff. And the front facing camera is five megapixels now, I think. Yeah. And it's got a selfie flash.

But of course, the big thing, the big change is 3D touch. So much so. I expected them to come out and talk about cameras. And like we are going to spend a long time talking about how we stayed at 8 megapixels and we understand photography better than anybody, but now we're going to 12. is what it means and this is why it's a big deal. But no, they came out and just jumped, bam, right into 3D touch. Didn't wait at all.

And we were talking about it earlier at the beginning of the show. Like, I was ready to just destroy this feature. Yeah. So just it's great. Hearing rumors of it, it sounded bewildering. Yeah. And seeing the video, it definitely seems a lot more natural than I expected. But I still, it's like really hard to make an impression without having used it.

And knowing like how much pressure, like, do I actually like push through my iPhone? How does it actually feel to use 3D touch? Like, is it natural? It's natural-ish. It'll, like, I think it'll take a week to figure it out. The issue that I had during my own test with it was that I couldn't tell exactly what the distinction was between a 3D touch and the kind of long press that makes all your apps. start jiggling so you can delete them.

Which, by the way, that's still how you jiggle the apps is a long press. Yeah. I mean, that was a problem I had on my, like, Apple Watch at first. I was like, I'm just, like, long touching right now, and I don't understand why I'm forced touching. I think that, like, we, because we've trained ourselves not to do that. We trained herself to understand how much pressure it takes to activate a touchscreen, and so it doesn't occur to us to, like, just push harder, I think.

I don't know. Like, it feels very, it feels a little bit unnatural, but once you sort of, like, the question is like once you understand how to do it can it become like a second nature thing it's going to be it's absolutely going to become second nature okay yeah can you can you please explain why you are so so hype for 3d touch can you can you Skype check 3D touch for me okay here's my Skype check so uh today when you open an app like your second step is like to hunt through the app to like find the thing you actually want to do right so like you open up instagram and like then you find the camera or then you go into your activity feed

With 3D touch, you just launch all that right from the icon itself, right? So it's just like quick touch and then scroll up. I want to go to the camera. Right. So it's like it's sort of combining the act of opening up the app and finding the function in the app that you're looking for. So like opening the app and like doing the thing you want to do with the app are now the same thing.

That's big. It's going to save you tiny fractions of a second, but it's going to save you like those fractions like millions of times. And you're just going to feel better. about your phone as a result. So that's my Skype check. All right. But that's just like the home screen. And I feel like you're excited about that, not because this feature is crazy and amazing, but because you're just, you're so embittered by how little innovation has been on the basic home screen to the iPhone. Look, I would love to see more innovation. I'm not going to sit here and stand in the path of innovation

theater. That's not why I do what I do. But the like the big, the big skeptic. question is why do they need force to do these software features? Why do they need force to give us little shortcuts into the icons? Why do they need force to give us like email previews and like live photos which we got to talk about? Like do I don't know. I honestly don't. It's because we want to save long press for other things. Is it because force is fundamentally better because you like it's faster? I think that once force acquire or once like the idea of touch gains this artificial sense of depth, it just opens up new UI possibilities. And so, of course, UI designers are going to exploit them, right?

But, like, I would just turn the question on its head and say, like, why should touch only be in 2D? Why should there only be one level of touch? Like, why would you artificially constrain the number of, like, gestures and interactions that you can have on a phone? Like, to me, it just seems like the more the merrier. All right. Fine. So I'm actually less, I'm like playing devil's advocate to, because I really want to listen to Casey defend the beautiful, bright, crazy, innovative future of 3D touch and how it's going to change everything again, again and again, because it's three. But the thing that I was most worried about wasn't like, how is the physical interaction?

Well, I learn how to press, you know, hard enough to get it right. My actual concern is that the stuff that it would do would have. have different things in different apps. And this is the problem with the Apple Watch. When I force touch on the watch screen, I can change my watch face. When I force touch in like the Twitter app, it brings up a bunch of random buttons. Yeah. Do you force touch in something else?

It's like I have no idea what's going to happen. It's just like force touch to like bring up some random crap. And if that's what they did on the iPhone or if it's what they're doing on the stuff that's like beyond the demos that we saw, then I'll get real mad. But what they what they're doing instead is you you force. Are we calling it forced touch or 3D touch? I believe it's called peek and pop. God.

Two gestures. Okay, so peeking is cool because it's like, what is this thing that I have? Someone sent me a link. Someone sent me an address. Someone, I've got an email. What is this thing? I want to see what this thing is without like actually opening up another app or doing something. And so you can peek at it.

That's cool. That's consistent. Well, what's pop? Pops when it goes full screen. I think, wait, I think if you just leave it for long enough or press it. touch harder. Then it, then it, that's the pop. Okay, so you press a little bit to peak and then you press hard to pop.

Yeah. And then there's a brand. And then there are additional actions you can take to whip and to nay, nay. That completes the set. Well, there's a, there's a, there's a new haptic engine in the iPhone so that it'll give you the, the prop appropriate haptic feedback for those different actions and whether or not you screwed them up, apparently. And apparently to make room for that new heptic engine, they made the battery smaller on the iPhone 6. I'm not too concerned with the battery life I mean it's always been pretty great

and I don't see the reason why it's pretty tiny change as far as that goes Yeah but you sell your iPhone over like six months Your batteries never died down But I think the more pressing concern here is the 16 gigabyte thing Which is at this point is just not excusable anymore Right? Yeah I mean from what we were told yesterday, Deeter

The new live photos Which we haven't really talked about But it essentially creates like a you know a gif of every photo you take with sound, take up twice as much storage space as a photo without live touch enabled. Every person I know who has run out of space on their phone, which is an incredibly high number of people in my life, has run out of space because of the photos that they've taken, right?

They just, you know, take a lot of pictures and they don't bother cleaning them out because cloud storage is still honestly very confusing for a lot of people, right? So you're telling me you're going to double the amount of storage space that a photo takes by default and keep 16 gigabytes, like it's insane. Right,

and Apple will store your photos in the cloud, but only if you pay them for more than five gigabytes of storage, which is like... Yeah, but five gigs is... I know it's not enough for now. No, but I mean, like,

if there was like an Apple photos equivalent to Google photos, I would have just stayed in that because all of my photos would have been there by now. But instead, I went through this, like, painstaking process

to bring everything over to Google. And now, like, at the end of every month, I have to, like, take all of my photos off of my phone, bring them into, like, flickering,

Google photos, just to make sure that they're backed up and whatnot, and I have space of my iPhone. Like, I have on numerous occasions I had to, like, delete, like, half of the apps on my phone just to make room for more photos. Wow. Like, because I wasn't in a place where I could, like, back them up and stuff. And it's like, I'm not going to pay $100 more, probably, for more storage. So you're going to get a 16? Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm just going to sever it. Well, actually, well, I do want to talk about live photos, but maybe instead of spending an extra 100 at the outset, you could sign up for Apple's new upgrade program. Yeah. Yeah. Come on, that was a very transition and you guys just sat there. I would say that,

actually, this is one of, I think, the most interesting things that Apple announced yesterday. It's, like, interesting, but also, like,

totally obvious and not that interesting. Because, like, Apple's not actually, like, they got a bank to, like, finance small loans to customers in the Apple store

and rebrand it. That's all they did, to be super clear. But the implications of it, are like really interesting. Yeah. Right? What are the implications?

So first of all, the deal is good. It basically, it's just like an installment plan, but it comes like with AppleCare. And so once you compare it to the carrier's plans with their insurance, it ends up being in a wash. And I know you're going to come at me with AT&T Next

and T-Mobile Jump and whatever the hell else these little plans are and all these four carriers, those plans are garbage. They have lots of weird hidden clauses. You don't really know when you get to upgrade how many things you have to pay off to do it. And the rules around it are very complicated. Apple's rules are simple. Pay us this money.

You can upgrade once a year and you get AppleCare. And like that's it. And then you can take your phone to whatever carrier you want. So what's hilarious to me and I was going to write this for Saturday, but I'm just going to tell you right now, the dream of the nexus is alive in apple stores right this is what the original nexus one is like hey we're gonna like we're just going to sell you a phone and it'll be relatively cheap and you can just take it wherever you want it'll be unlocked

and like the fact that all the carriers switched away from their like crazy contracts meant that like this opening happened for apple to do the thing that google has been trying to get the world to do forever that Motorola has been trying to get the world to do forever. But now, like, Apple's just been quietly doing it, and now they're going to loudly do it. And that's pretty exciting. I suppose. So, I mean, I'm so used to just selling phones and buying them out, right, and then paying for Apple care, which is more expensive now, by the way, for the success.

But, like, so, okay, actually, teach me your ways, because I never sell my phone. I was like, hey, I'll buy this and I'll sell it. No, I totally am going to sell it. It'll be fine. I don't be a hassle at all. I always hang on to me. I'm like, well, just in case, like, my other one, like, breaks, or I lose it or something. And now, I just have like a 4S sitting in a drawer that like I will like touch like I don't know never again or when I'm like oh this is cool and then put it back in the drawer yeah sometimes I use Craigslist sometimes I use for my six plus I just sold that was over to swapa and I got like 700 bucks for it which isn't better for the 128 good bottle do you like meet people at coffee shops no no that one's

you mail stuff out yeah FedEx PayPal right away so that's that's a pretty good route I think that's the way I'm going to go from now on a swapa. I mean, let's, like, I don't know if you didn't know this first counselor's, but Chris buys approximately a phone a month, maybe more. But he never has, like, 10 of them. He, like, he, you know, it's a lot of money, but it's not as much as you think because he's always selling the old ones, sometimes at a profit. But what I want to know is a phone a month, going through the hassle of buying and selling

them, like, how much of your life does this take up? I think I'm pretty seldom right now on the note five. I don't, I'm not really too compelled by the six. so we'll see how I feel come like two weeks from now when it's actually on stuff. But for now I'm pretty happy on Android, I think. I mean, I was not going to upgrade. I was going to stay with just the six.

But the fact that Apple's upgrade plan is like I can just walk into store and like, here's $32 a month is like not nothing. Like that adds up to $750 after two years or whatever it adds up to $890, whatever. So, but like, you know, I can like convince myself that like I won't miss $32 a month. I have a question.

Yeah. Like, did we calculate the actual like total premium that you pay to do this program over just buying the phone outright for 800 bucks or whatever? For the 16 gigabyte, I think it's like 125 bucks extra. But that's the cost of the AppleCare. I guess that's true. But like you also don't get to keep the phone. Well, you do after two years. Right.

Well, oh, I guess if you keep paying it and don't upgrade. Oh, I guess that makes sense if you factor in AppleCare. Yeah. So, like, the same, basically the thing you're paying for is avoiding the hassle that Chris Welch goes through once a month of having to sell your phone to upgrade. And, like, you're believing that it's okay for you to give up the residual value of your phone after a year to have the simplicity of what, essentially, for all intents and purposes. turns out to be a leasing program unless you decide to keep it until the end of the two years and then you own it.

And, you know, like fundamentally, it's not like the greatest deal. It's basically like at a year, if you're like, oh man, I really want the phone, you can like do the mental math. I'm like, well, if I paid this phone off and then I sold it, I would get this much money for it, I bet.

And so then I would probably end up ahead than just buying the phone. Or you'd be like, oh, man, I really want the phone. Well, it turns out that I can do it. And if I don't do that math, I won't know that I lost that money. Hooray! The thing that makes this so hard for me is, like, on one hand, this is, like, actually a pretty, seems like a pretty good deal for, like, people like us who always want to have, like,

the newest phone. Yeah. On the other hand, I could just buy a Moto G for $200 and, like, keep that for a few years. Right. Or I could buy a MotoX for $400 and, like, keep that for a few years and have, like, a pretty good phone. Like, and not be giving Apple, what, like, $380, $400? every year. I mean, like, there is a big cost difference if you don't, you know,

if you are willing to step out of the constant upgrade cycle. Like, this in some ways is a way for Apple to preserve the, like, I'm going to get my phone every two years, or accelerate, I guess. So is the moral of the story that buying a phone every year is expensive, no matter what? Is that basically where we're at? Okay, we got to wrap. So I do not.

know which of these three things. I'm definitely buying the Apple TV. I am probably not getting the iPad Pro, and I'm going to say I'm not going to buy the iPhone success, but I'm totally going to buckle in like a month and buy it. Same boat. Same boat? Yeah. All right. Probably the TV, almost definitely, just to see how much different it is and how much better, if any. But the phone will see in about a week or so. Right. But, yeah. Casey? No TV, no iPad Pro, but definitely a success. Who's going Rose Gold? going for the rose gold baby it's beautiful it's really good looking i'm not kidding it's really good looking i've been shocked the response from the straight male community to the rose gold iphone by the way

outrageously positive if you are looking for the representative like the straight white male community like the most boring community on earth you are looking at him or listening to the sound of his voice right now um if you want to follow me on twitter you can uh but you should should also, actually, you should follow Verge. We're at Verge on Twitter. We're also on Snapchat. A lot of cool stuff happened on Snapchat during the Apple event, and a lot of cool stuff's happening.

Some Snaptracks went up today. We are the real Verge on Snapchat. And we're also scoping a lot, and that's going to be really exciting. In addition to those social networks, you should also just head over to iTunes.com slash a Verge, click the buttons, and you will go there, and you will discover that you could rate us. And we recommend that you rate us five stars, don't you? Oh, for sure.

And what should the review be of our podcast? I don't know. Is it out of stars, hearts? What are we looking at here? Stars. They're going to give us five stars, and then they're going to tell us something in the body of the review.

That's like a recommendation. For this one, it'll probably be chill, I think, for this review. What I would say is, hey, if you watch the show live, the host will actually respond to your tweets and you know good luck getting that on the this american life podcast that's true that's true have i responded any tweets i will i will respond to every single person that tweeted to me uh during the show uh so that's exciting uh one other thing i need to mention just because i almost forgot was that

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Also great podcast. Also check out Chris Welch's used phones.com. Great service to buy high-end telephones. I am backline on Twitter. Jake is... Jake underscore K. I am at Chris Welch. Yes.

And you're like, you got to be cool to follow you, right? No. No. No. Not anymore. And Casey, you're Casey Newton. I'm Casey Newton and I discourage cool people from following me. That is the perfect way to end this extremely nerdy podcast.

Bye, everybody. Goodbye. Goodbye. So long.