The Vergecast - Roomba with a Knife

Episode Date: December 12, 2014

We're joining the enterprise on this week's Vergecast. Sony, Microsoft, Apple—we've got all your corporate backend stories covered. Plus, Dieter introduces us to the native vocabulary of Minnesota. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to the Vergecast, brought to you by no one, because no advertiser is dumb enough to buy this show. I'm Eli Patel. I'm Dieter Bone, and I'm Micah Singleton. Oh, damn! Oh, shit! We brought out the proper intro for Micah. Yeah, no, I did my best. I was going to do a male Kemp joke, but those are super played.

I use it. Actually, the line is I actually use. Yeah, I do. It's great. So we're here, Sam Shephyr. Hi. On the hype deck. Thank you. announcing that I'm here.

There he is. You did it. I'm here. I checked yourself. Foppish. Boom. Really? That's it.

That's it. I'm leaving. Before we started, we got into a heated debate over what the word foppish meant. Sam decided it was good and applied it. So that's where we landed.

He's a modern day scarlet pimpernel. That's Sam. I don't know what that means. Google that too. Look it up. We've just been instructing Sam to Google things as we go along here. But no, I'm excited.

Welcome to the Vergecast, our show where we talk about the verge. Today, Micah Singleton is here. Micah's the newest member of the Verge crew, which is pretty excited. He's visiting us from Nashville. Knoxville.

Knoxville. Knoxville. I think I've been telling everybody in Nashville. Yeah. Close. It's close. Three hours. Three hours.

One starts with the K and one starts with an end. Yeah. On one, the K is hiding. But they're both in and Ville. There's close. Knoxville. But you're visiting us to New York, which is great. Yeah.

We went out a little bit last night. A little bit last night. I went out a lot bit last night. We might go out a lot bit again tonight. Yeah. But it's great to have him here. And in honor of Micah, and to troll our many, many listeners, today would be the hardest of the hardcore tech verge casts. For people that don't know, Micah is like a tech nerd.

Complete tech nerd. Really? Yeah. People that don't know. So is everyone else in this room. Well, I mean, they know you and D. I'm not a tech nerd. No, but Micah, you know, he knows his stuff.

Everyone doesn't know me. They don't know. Yeah. The Micah is wonderful. We're very excited to have them here. And to be a tech nerd. Yes. But today is Enterprise Apps Day.

I don't think anybody's ready for the level of Enterprise Apps conversation we're about to have. I don't think we're ready. iTunes reviewers. Get ready to hear nothing but granular sales force features. Oh, no, please, no. You guys, we're going to make a pivot table live on air, all right? Get your shit ready. Look, our line of business apps conversation is, I don't know.

That's a Microsoft is, I think. Um, no, actually a huge week in news and specifically in tech news, um, across a variety of things that all feel, uh, supervergy in, in their scope, uh, and in their way. So we should actually get started, which with what I think is the biggest story of the week. And possibly like, it's the end of the year, but possibly of the year based on how much is being revealed about Hollywood right now, which is this hack of Sony Pictures. Yeah. Um, and so here's the backstory. So Stony Pictures was going to release The interview, the movie with Seth Rogen

and James Franco. I think they still are. They still are. But they were, you know, they're in the middle of the promotional cycle for it. The movie is about killing Kim Jong-un. Akiwa. Un. Un.

You got it. Which is what, I mean, it's a premise for a movie, like, fine. But so it goes. North Korea, obviously not so happy about such a movie. That's a much. And retaliated by hacking the shit out of

Yeah. There were... We're gonna not swear anymore? Oh, crap. Yeah, I did it too. Yeah, we're past that now. Too late. Yeah, we're getting that explicit label on iTunes,

which means all the kids will want to download us. We're getting that parental advisory. What would you say we're rated if you had to give us a rating? Dude, like, seriously. It's like a soft PG-13. So we don't... If there's one F-bomb every two hours and there's zero naked people, that's a soft PG-13.

We don't yet have... But we're going to change that negative people from the 80s, though. No, in the 80s, PG-13 was kind of raunchy. Yeah, it was. For real. F-bombs are raunchy. You don't say F-bomb in front of mom. You could say damn.

F-bombs are raunchy? I learned the F-bomb from my mom. Yeah, you grew up in Middle America. The least raunchy place on Earth. What? Look. Like, the Puritans came to America. They're like, well, I don't know.

There's all this water on these coasts. Let's move in. Inside. We're going inside. Yeah, I don't Literally, I think Minnesota is the least Ranchi place on Earth. Yeah, that's fair.

What I mean to say is that they They use foul language. Yeah, because they're two, they can't do any other raunchy things. It's their one avenue of Rangy expression. The Lutherans in Minnesota had to move to Minnesota to get away from those crazy, you know, New Jersey.

Amish people. They were, they were way too out there for us. I don't know. That's just too wild. Carriage with four wheels. No. Sorry.

Okay. So we don't yet have the smoking gun for sure, for sure that North Korea did it. But a bunch of the header files in the hack stuff were, I don't know, header files, a bunch of the files were in Korean. And North Korea called it a righteous deed, but they denied that they have done it. Right. So, I mean, that seems to be the vector by which it came across. Yeah. But what's actually interesting now is after a period of media organization, like hand-winging,

I would say there is now media organization gleeful digging through these hacked documents because they reveal so much about the process by which movies are made and sold and by the process by which studios talk to each other. Emily Yoshita today told me that she thought it was amazing that like billionaire and millionaire studio moguls email each other like teens. from AOL.com email addresses. That's mostly what they use. They live in the, they're using archaic software. I mean, think about who's, who are these executives. Yeah, like mail app.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're just like old dudes who like still use Windows 98. I mean, that is, I will say, that's actually a harsh burn. Yeah. But probably accurate. And it probably explains why they got hacked. No, so I will, the FBI and I think the CIA, like they, they've begun the forensic

analysis. They've said 90% of companies would have got. gotten hacked in this way. Life at Sony pictures appears to be terrible. No one's taking responsibility. There's all this potential for identity theft. All of that is bad. And there's there's there's leaks coming out all the time because they stole just a huge amount of information and only a small portion of it has come out so far. Right. And so like it's a terabyte so far. Right. But like they're releasing like four gigs at a time. Six gigs at a time. So what kind of stuff have we seen so far? Well, so here's here's what upstairs. This is like the fun.

funniest thing upstairs on the ninth floor of this office in a small room uh ross miller brian bishop who's back in the verge team as well she's awesome uh russle brandon and occasionally emily uh they've gotten out two windows laptops and a sous and i think a yoga and something else yeah but but you can't tell which is which because they all look like mac they all look exactly it's the funniest thing in the world but they've gotten them out because they're like old review units and they don't care if they get viruses because they don't know what's in these torrents and they're just like pouring through things now like everybody else at every other meeting organization like the Wall Street Journal broke his story out of this stuff the recode broke a story gawker's been all over it too bus feet like everyone's like a fusion yeah so Sony's like the guy in the bar standing in front of the window and he's really excited and then the window breaks and zombies grab him and pull him out and we're the zombies yeah we're We're feasting on his flesh. Yeah. That's what's happening.

And so who are the hackers then? Huh? Who would the hackers be in that situation? The hackers infected us with their zombie disease. No, well, shit. Yeah. That's what it is. Darn.

Yeah. Dratz. Drafts. Stop launching it up, Minnesota. Anyway. So the first stuff to come out, which was fascinating, is the disaster of the Steve Jobs movie. Yeah. Which I will say has always seemed like a disaster to me.

But the arguments they got in about who should star in it, who should direct it. Aaron Sorkin, like, he offered, he wanted Tom Cruise to play Steve Jobs, which was amazing. He offered to, like, give up some of his salary to keep David Fincher around because he wanted to keep the social network team together. And then just, like, the basics of this script, which this movie took place in two auditoriums, a garage and, like, a living room. It's like nothing happens in this movie. Or a cafe. It's like a diner. Okay.

Not a living room. And like this movie, so this movie left Sony, right? It left Sony and went to Universal because they couldn't get it together. And by the end, like these executives from their area well accounts are just swearing at each other. Yeah. Just totally like super mad being like, don't you threaten me. And it's like, I don't know. Do you ever watch Entourage? I watched a bit of it.

I didn't watch the entire thing. You know how like you watch it for a while? You're like, oh, this can't be real. This is now people behave. Yeah. If you read these emails and it's like, totally. This is how they behave. Yeah.

It's amazing. What do you think of the job? Do you read the jobs book? I read most of it. This movie sounds like a disaster. Sounds like it's going to be a complete disaster. Yeah. I mean, the storyline doesn't seem that great.

And they've had so many casting issues already. I don't know how they're going to get this done. I mean, they're still struggling to find a lead. Who do you think should play jobs? Tom Cruise to this point Why not? He's too shrill I think you can do it

I mean later jobs 2000 era jobs But not the earlier part I mean the problem they're having It's funny someone that can play Early 80s jobs And then early 2000s jobs Right

Both of them justice But what's amazing to me about this movie Look I just don't get it It's like Those were important periods of Steve jobs But they weren't the iPhone Right Weren't the iPhone

Yeah Like how do you make a stupid A movie about Steve Jobs, it doesn't have the iPhone At all. Like, not even, like, at the end of the movie, like, maybe, like, the last scene of the movie is, like, he's holding an iPod, he's like, what if this is a phone? And it's, like, literally the only way you can do this in this movie.

Like, you see him, like, slowly, like, the shot fades out with it. He's, like, standing a beach holding an iPod. And he's, like, pulls away. He's, like, putting the iPod to his ear. That's not how it happened, though. They started with the tablet. Yeah. You're missing an entire chunk, a huge chunk, an important chunk.

So here's my thing about this movie. And it's amazing to watch it just like stumble around these studios and not so many just struggle to cast it and understand it. And they were in a fight with Angelina Jolie because she wanted David Fincher director. Shut Angie down before she makes it very hard for David to do jobs. Yeah. According to one executive. I mean, there's like crazy high school politics.

They're like, we should never be beholden to a movie star. Yeah. I mean, these emails consist of WTF and LOL from like billionaire executives. But who like angrily types the words, we should never be beholden to a movie star and like hits enter and it's like, I said the right thing. All dudes. All dudes with Windows 98. Anyway, so watching this like jobs movie stuff, which I think is so far, we have many more stories coming out of this and I think there's a lot of interesting stuff revealed. But watching the jobs movie stuff, what occurs to me is that their source material is so bad.

because that book, the Walter Isaacson book, is bad. Yeah. Like, it's really bad. Yeah. And it doesn't make any sense, like in key areas. Like, they never discuss why they left Intel to go to arm for the iPhone. It's just not in there. Like, that's a huge decision.

Yeah. Maybe you should have asked Steve Jobs about it. Bill Gates is like, they didn't use any of the next technology in OS10. He just, like, it's a quote in the book. And it's like, you never, you didn't ask Steve Jobs if that was true? Because you were the only one talking to him about his autobiography that you wrote, that you transcribe. that you transcribe for him. It's terrible, and it's just obvious that would make a bad movie.

Yeah, I mean, the book was bad, but I mean, I think Aaron Sorkin figured out a way to make the script worse. And it's not going to. I mean, to cast someone in this movie is going to be incredibly difficult to find someone that can do a justice. And Fastbender, who's, I think he's a top name right now. Yeah. I don't see that work. I was just like, what is just top of your head? Sam, number one, Steve Jobs moon at all time.

Number one Steve Jobs movie of all time. Moment. Yeah. I mean, again, I was born in 1990, so this was... Well, so was I. So, really? Yeah. You were born in 1990?

So you guys can never give me crap about being young game. Oh, yes, we can. Suit? Yeah, and I'm wearing velour. Get at me. Poppish. It's not a compliment, Sam. Steve Jobs' defining moment.

It was the iPhone. It was the iPhone. It was. No, it's a moment. And he was like, it's a thing. It was. He changed the course of history. It's an X and a Y and another one, right?

Like, that's the moment. That's the Steve Johnson. He's like, are you getting it? And, like, that's how you start this movie. Yeah. And then, like, you do the shimmers. And then you go back. And then he holds the iPod to his ear.

Slowly or, well, the helicopter pulls away on a beach. He's like, the funny part is everyone knows this except for Aaron Sorkin. Right. Everyone knows what to do, except for him. Yeah, I mean, it just, that book doesn't contain. I mean, I think Aaron Sorkin's limited by the fact that his source material doesn't contain enough detail about the iPhone. Like, the story of the iPad in that book is an engineer at a party, like said, I'm making a tablet. And Steve Jow was like, no, I, fuck you.

Sorry, I did it again. For you. But that's not really the story. Yeah. I don't know. So that, like, seeing how that's going, I think that movie, well, if you're listening to The Vergecast. You almost certainly want to watch that movie, right?

And I don't think it's ever going to get me. Why are they making Steve Jobs movies to make money, right? Like, I don't think there's a director out there that's like, I want to do this because I love Steve Jobs. It's like, no, we can make. What? No. I mean, don't get it wrong. There's money.

You do not need to convince me that Aaron Sorkin has, like, gotten bad. Yeah. I just, I just, I think it's way too soon. They, I mean, the, the Ashton Coucher one came out. out and whatever about that one. But it's just another one already. Do you want to talk about the Justin Long one? There's a Justin Long one?

Oh, it is incredibly. Wait, wait. Is this Silicon Valley? Like the one from the... Is this just Justin Long? Like, in his house, like in front of a webcam? Yes. Like a YouTube series?

It's like the whole time you're like, this is a parody. This no. Yeah. No. Yeah, it is. It's shockingly insanely bad. You didn't know about this? I didn't know.

Clearly it has not. All right. and furiously type Justin Longsteve Jobs in their browsers. It's called I, Steve. It's a documentary. No. Oh my God, he looks really bad. It's horrible.

He looks like a... You don't remember this? No. Yeah. Oh, my God. Is that a fake beard? It's a fake beard, and there's like the old ghost janitor that, like, gives him advice right before the keynote. Like, yeah.

Yeah. No. But yeah, it was a funnier die thing. This is a pile of bad. It was bad. Okay. we're not, I don't want to talk about that. Anyway, so my, my friend-

We all just sighed for this. We all just looked at like Justin Long and like a dime store beard and like power donut and just like haircut that he's got. That's bad. It's all bad. So do you know what Sony's doing now? They're finding the torrents and then they're suing

the torrent providers? Well, and they're also seeding them. But they're seating it with really bad seeds. And so the, like, so the torrents are failing. they're trying to just get in there and destroy the torrents before they can work. There's like some crazy hacker stuff beyond that. Well, so if you change the data, it's hash,

but if you just like get 5,000 people that are seating it, and then you're like, oh, this one's got a ton of seeds. I'm going to download this super fast, but then all the seeds are like only uploading it at a ridiculously slow speed, then the torrent is effectively dead if nobody can not get it. That's what they're trying right. I mean, this part of it is really interesting, right? where Sony hired like mandiant,

which is a security firm that specializes in like rapid response to hacks. They're very serious, Mandant. They know they're sure to sure. Wow. I mean, it's the rating's gone, man.

Like somewhere John Lago, Marcino is like, we get five stars. It's not the five star rating. It's, but I'm trying to plug the five stars. Give us five stars. Hype check what you just did.

It was probably lame. Okay. But let's be clear. But some people will give us fine stuff. So Sony's like they're attacking the torrents. They are desperately trying to lock down their own systems or trying to understand where it came from. I mean,

this is a huge, like a big deal. Like these are a billion dollar companies that have been attacked. And Sony just keeps getting it. Like they were attacked. What's the PlayStation? PlayStation Network just went down. Went down a few times ago.

But the same group that brought down Xbox Live. I mean, the nature of this is I think every company in America is now, like, terrified about this. Because everyone, the overwhelming scope of like information technology is moving to the cloud. And this is Sony's like local. It's like hard to tell if this is going to push more companies to give their security away to Microsoft and Google and the cloud services or pull it down even closer so they can keep a closer eye on it. And I think it will end up pushing things.

You want a hardcore enterprise tech in the conversation. You're getting it right now. So what I want to know is. Ranchi Enterprise. They've been hacked to hell and back. But is there, you know, some. sort of calculable damage. Like I get that, you know, the, the social security numbers and all those things were

released and these emails are released. But is Sony actually suffering? Yes. Yeah. Oh, super badly. They're like, they're conducting business on like pen and paper right now. Yeah. And the worst part is these hacks are, these leaks are going to go on for a while.

Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. Yeah, that was my next question. I mean, there's, right. I mean, it's at the point where like major Sony executives had to apologize for, like, telling racially tinge jokes about Obama that they thought were private. And it's like, well, you shouldn't have done that.

But there was no expectation. Right. Yeah. Right. You were not acting in your public persona. And like that stuff is like, it's just going to keep happening to them in like the worst possible way. So this is just the beginning.

This is the tip of the answer. Wow. Yeah. I mean, they're releasing it in chunks, right? There's, if they, it's like if you have a terabyte of data and you've already released a

terabyte of data, you probably have a lot more. And, and their, is just screw you Sony pictures for releasing the interview, or is there something deeper? It's hard to tell, right? No one knows. I mean, like, no one's really coming forward to like.

Well, that's also true. Right. So that's Sony, and I think you're going to see a lot of reporting, not only from us, but from basically every media organization, because it is now easy to tell a broader story about all of the news that we've gotten out of Sony in the past. I would say there is probably a great deal of hand-wringing, just in general, about it. Um, you know, we waited.

It took us a week to like feel good about doing it. And then every, every single other media organization started doing it. Um, and at this point, there's actually more value, I think, for us. And this is how I think about it to do good stories based on the stuff rather than re-report or aggregate or whatever. Other people's stories not have done the work ourselves. So we're doing it. Um, I will say that room with Ross and Brian and Russell bursts into laughter at mysterious intervals. Yes.

So I don't know. We'll see what they get up to. But they're working on it. You'll see some more stories. Okay. So that's Sony. There's other. There's actually lots of like media tech news.

Yeah. That's like the thing. So the next big thing is, you know, we've heard HBO go. They're going to make it. They're going to unbundle it. Anybody's able to do it that we're expecting that next year. But the next shoe is that rather than use their own in-house solution, which crashes anytime anything mildly poised.

popular airs on HBO. It's pretty true. That's true. No, it's just a good burn. It's good burn. Their CTO is resigning, and they're going to partner up with Major League Baseball, the people that make the MLB app and also the WWE app, and they're going to run the streaming technology behind HBO. And so MLB Advanced is like the white label provide. They do WWE.

They did March Madness. Yeah. Unclear. Yeah. There's a couple. I think they might have switched providers. Is this a good thing or bad thing for HBO people? It's a really good thing.

The MLB Advance is a fascinating company. They power all these streams. They keep them all synced up across multiple platforms, and they make apps that dynamically show data from the games in a nice-looking interface that's up to date and synced up to the video stream that you're watching. And it's the stream loads properly. Yeah, and they do it for millions of people and like hundreds of games per week. can just, they know it.

They've got it down. Well, they've got it down, but like, I think it's, there's, I mean, I think if your HBO, you've got a, and, you know, they, they hired a guy from Otto Berk's, from Microsoft to, like, build their streaming group. They had, like, 60 people in our office in Seattle, and they're just, like, walking away from it. Yeah, that dude resigned. Yeah, he, he said, and, like, his quote, like, the memo was, uh, this is a change in

direction from what I planned with HBO, and the approach will not utilize my capabilities. Right, because if you're just white labeling. I mean, that's like being hired as a software architect and they're being like, you should, you should just buy office. Yeah. Just buy, just go to Comp USA, dude. Yep. And just buy comp USA. I got my first e-machines

computer from there. My first first. Ah, boss, man. Really? I mean, it was beef at the time, but just looking back, e-machines, it had like, did you get an E-EPC? It was beef at the time. All right, well, that just put me back in a really weird place.

Are you like having emotions about your EP? No, it was, no. It was my first. Do you have one of the fake IMac ones? No, no, no. This was just like a tower and I put like some lame stickers on it and that was a time. A young chefer finding his way in the world. So here's my question.

Is HBO going to join teen Netflix in terms of team, not teen, although that would be interesting. Teen Netflix, Netflix for teens. in the net neutrality battle. No. That's a good question. So here's what I think is going on the Netflix or HBO. HBO's core competency is not anything other than making things, making videos, and selling them to cable networks.

Right. That's the business that they're in. They're very good at that business, obviously, right? They're particularly good at making, like, video. They're Game of Thrones, right? They're good at that. Fundamentally making it for that customer. like that's going to change if unless they completely blow it or they charge too much money or each i'm just i'm wrong

HBO go is going to very quickly become like oh man this is the thing that we do now no what i'm saying is like they're that's their business that's what they understand and they're that business of we're going to make stuff and sell it to the cable networks is getting disrupted by people watching cable online right so unless they're going to wait for comcast to deliver it to screens which comcast is never going to do or time one or whatever, it was better for HBO to go do it themselves. Right. I think that they thought they had to extend themselves and develop that capability on their own.

And I think what they very quickly learned was they could spend lots and lots of money developing that capability. But really, in the end, all they're doing is like shipping bits from one place to another as fast as they can. Yeah. And you can be in the race to do that better than Netflix. Or you can wake up and realize it's 2014 and you can just like white late. You can just buy the software to do that and pay.

someone else to make it their problem. And like there are other places you can go. Like they could have maybe they would have signed a deal with Netflix. But MLB Advanced is there. Maybe it would go to Acomine. Like whatever. There's other places providing the solution for them. So they don't, they can take their money that they're investing in whatever, like get rid of the guy who's like trying to build this thing, spend whatever money they need to spend on MLB Advance and then take the rest of the money and use it to make more shows. Because that's actually their business. Right. And I think if you're Netflix, actually your business is shipping bits from. place to another as fast as you can.

Right? Like, that's the core of their business. Like, Netflix is a technology company, not a media company. And for them to say, like, what about their shows? Right, but for them say... Yeah, but they don't need their shows

to be successful. I mean, they... Oh, I think they do. I think they feel like they really do. I think that they'll become a commodity, that they feel like that the jam is to be a media company that is better than everybody that's at the streaming technology. They have a VC money to lock down content

deals with every major, like... Right. Netflix will get whatever they want if they paid enough. It feels like Netflix and HBO are going, you know, sort of crossing streams with each other right now. Well, I mean, the Netflix line, like the Reed Hastings line is Netflix needs to become HBO faster and HBO can become us. Yeah. And I think what HBO decided to stop doing was stop trying to be Netflix. This is the moment when HBO stops trying to be Netflix and Netflix, like the road is wide open for them to become HBO in a way that I don't think HBO quite realizes is going to happen. Right?

So, like, Netflix is the premium channel that you buy. Yep. Well, think of it this way. Look, we work at a company that also fancies itself both a technology company and a media company. Right. This is a, the reason I sound so confident when I talk about this in particular is because we live in this tension every day of our lives. So, like, do we run a platform? Do we just like, do we run a news website?

Do we fire all the product people who are upstairs having a meeting they call the jambo? Just an idea, guys. It's a cool, needing name. Yeah, it is. No, I'm teasing, right? But they're the value of the company, right? Like, fundamentally, like, our company is powered by this. We're disposable.

Well, no, but, like, we're the media company, right? We're the people who I type of things, and the platform, like, multiplies our value. And whatever way we do that, whatever way we put product against it. That's what technology companies do. So Netflix makes the content, and then they understand the value of their platform and their technology to multiply the value of that content. HBO didn't do that, right? Their service went down. They couldn't stream it to a billion people at once.

They weren't thinking about it in like multiple screen formats. They were just making TV shows and trying to stream them and failing. Yep. And so it's better for HBO to like just be a content studio. For Netflix, I think it's better for them to be the best content delivery service because they will always get more value like differentiating against that versus NLB advanced, versus watch ESPN versus whatever. So Netflix is really,

they're always going to be really proprietary about wanting you in their interface and wanting you in the Netflix experience so they can always push you more bits because that's how they are always going to make their money whereas I think HBO it's like yeah right like they just don't like they fundamentally don't understand it and then I don't know if they ever will and that's like a that's the moment we're in but do they have to uh no they can pay MLB to yeah right right but I think about it this way so if um like your cable subsisting description, right? It's a bundle of channels. Right. Right. If you come to a place where like we Diverge is like disrupted print tech magazines. Yeah. Right. Like it's better to read The verge and like wait to find out what happened at the Apple event in the paper tomorrow, right? So we've done that job. As you start watching more and more video online on your screens, you're going to, we're going to disrupt the cable networks, right? That's the next move for every internet tech company. Right. Shouldn't you have the core competency of like deliourable? delivering and making video to the disc screen,

or should you farm that out so that you're commoditized and you're in another bundle with whatever else? Okay, that's fair. And I think that's like, no one knows the answer. I'm not, I'm confidently saying that. Are we going to have an opinion, but I don't think anybody knows that answer? Are we going to demand that or want that someone to bring back the bundle

when we are paying for HBO Go and Hulu Plus and Netflix? Everyone will. I mean, it happens all the time. It's going to happen. Right. Because everything's going to be $15 a month. And then you're going to end up paying $150 a month and cables 1, 25.

And also music streaming on top of that. No, but I actually think it won't come because of price pressure. It'll come because of user experience. So if everything's $15 a month, that's great. You sign up for the ones you want. And then you've signed up for six of them, and they're all on your TV. And you won't want to authenticate six things. Yeah.

You're going to want to authenticate one thing. And someone will show up as like an aggregator of authentication. And they'll be like, we'll just bill everything for you. And then suddenly you're paying for a bundle. And maybe it's easier to opt in and out of things. things in the bundle and they'll build a better experience. But that's like, that's actually a market opportunity once everything becomes unbundled. It's to just be like, we make it easier to opt in and out of pieces of this bundle and authenticate to them.

Well, that was the dream of the Xbox, right? Like, you, in order to use, maybe it's not the case anymore, but there was a while where if you wanted to use Netflix on the Xbox, you had to be signed into Microsoft to Live. But then you still had to authenticate Netflix. Yeah, but the next time you do it, it's hooked up to Live. so it's handled. Right. I mean,

that, like, the user experience of this is all broken. Apple television. It's never going to happen. Apple television. Never going to happen.

No. Okay. It's already there, but like, no, no, no, not this.

What do you think? The, the thing. I mean, they're, oh, but the whole point of this is that the thing

of the TV being central and the regular traditional model of it, you can't be good at just that big screen anymore. You've got to be good

at the other screen. Right. The service part. Well, no. I'm like, Netflix is better at making video for a computer or tablet than HBO is. And they're better at delivering it over the internet. Right. I mean, I'm just saying, like, I don't know, like, I don't think Apple will ever make a TV. Oh, wow. I mean, if you want to talk about this Jobs book, like, the ultimate, the last Steve Jobs, and I think Apple has been struggling against this, literally since that book hit the shells, right? Steve Jobs saying,

I cracked it. We're going to make a TV. And they can't. They just. just there's it's not there for them like apple versus comcast isn't a fight that apple can win i don't think that's true you know what i think i think that we are going to see if you're right and i hope you are then we will see tim cook say steve jobs is wrong no i don't know about that wait wait think about i think after everything gets decoupled they'll make a television i why because they don't be easy to deal you you don't have to deal with comcast i mean that's their biggest struggle right now is dealing with comcast is how do you how do you not deal the problem so how do you judge we cracked it we're going to wait 20 years.

How do you not deal with Comcast? It's going to take time. Who's your internet provider? Who's shipping you 100 megabits a second to run all of your video streams on your four TVs in your house and your phone and your PC and your tablet? Yeah. It's Comcast. Right?

And like who is desperately fighting against Title II regulation to make sure they can prioritize the video streams to their IP devices versus Apple's IP devices right now? It's Comcast. And like it's just not a fight. It's not possible that they're discussing this with all of the major television or cable providers in America. Every technology company in the world has sat down with Comcast. But Apple has done this before. Apple just uprooted what the music industry was.

They got deals with all of the major record labels. No, no, no, no. Okay. The labels are died. I don't mean to like totally bigfoot you, but like this narrative is wrong and I'm going to totally bigfoot you. The two things you're going to bring up, you're going to bring up. music and you're going to bring up the phone. Yes. Absolutely the things you're going to bring up.

Think about those stories in context, right? Piracy destroyed the music industry and Apple said we can sell songs to you and we'll do it on our platform which has 7% market share and if it doesn't work, nothing bad will happen to you and you can shut it down. And then they were in a fight with Sony,

Andrew House at Sun. This is like the best part of the jobs book actually. Detailing the fight. They were constantly in with the labels over pricing, over release dates, over formats, over all of it. And over DRM, too. Over DRM. Like Apple was getting sued right now about DRM, and it's the most annoying thing because...

It was a decade ago. It was a decade ago, and Apple wanted to do the right thing, and they just couldn't. Right. So like... They were not putting the music labels over a barrel. Right. So even against a set of partners that had no leverage because their business was dying, Apple was in a nonstop fight, right? With the phones, Apple went to Verizon first and got rejected.

Yes. Then they went to AT&T and AT&T said yes And then it took forever for them to get deals with other carriers I wouldn't say forever I wouldn't say it took forever They got Verizon and then they got Sprint And then it's just 2011 wasn't it?

It took them five years I think they're gonna Could they could strike a deal with one major of one major cable provider? You can't do with one cable provider Because Verizon's worldwide It's a chorus of people talking about I want to believe in the Apple television.

I want to. This is what I'm saying. It's like the lasting troll of Steve Jobs, right? It's believing that Comcast or, I mean, he's on stage at all things D, right, saying you can't do it. There's too many providers and none of them are national. So to even get remotely, we've talked about it in this show a thousand times, right? Like to get AT&T has like 100 million subscribers.

That's scale, right? Comcast has like 28 million subscribers in one. region of the country. They want to buy Time Warner to expand that footprint. And I would put Time Warner right now, it's a 30% chance of happening for Comcast. That's just the sense I get from people I talk to. But like, even if they get that footprint, they're what, 40 million subscribers? Are you going to build a TV for 40 million people against a partner who hates you and

who everyone hates because they're like the 800-pound gorilla? Like Comcast has leverage in a way that the music industry never had leverage. But in a way that for even Apple, they had the hottest. Verizon had to run to Google and build the droid and do all this stuff. Let's step back from all of this. Yeah. Like, those dynamics are all true and all reasons not to make a TV. But let's assume that we, that magically, a bunch of that stuff goes away because the internet becomes successful enough and everybody's getting video and everything gets available, unbundled in such way you can get the video.

And if Apple wants to, they can go all the way around all of those cable company problems because everything's on the internet. The magic. If that magic, let's assume that magic. Happens. Tim Cook's like, unbilled the hologram or Steve Jobs, like, robot controlled. Yeah. Let's assume all that. This is mine for robots. Apple would still be really stupid to build TVs.

Like, what is the purpose? Like, it is not a good business to be in. Right. It's just not a good business. Like, I buy TVs now. They cost nothing. They're fine. People go buy the super high end stuff.

Mike is going to yell me because I don't want a plasma, right? What's up? That was loud. Oh, my God. It's the way to live, man. But it's just like the margins are thin. It's not a fast-moving, it's not a technology product. No one cares about it.

It's a panel. It's an LCD business, not a TV business. This is like really interesting to think about it. So we're in an office full of tech nerds, right? Yeah. Like the 20th anniversary great PlayStation is. Everyone was excited and I looked at it and we took photos of it. Rando like Apo phones are here.

Everyone wants to play with them. Like there's gadgets around it. People want to toy with them. There's been a Samsung 40-inch 4K TV. In a box just like sitting in our office. There's two of them. No one has even looked at those boxes. Are they curved?

They're not the curve. No, they're just random. The 219 one? Doesn't matter. Super wide. No, they're just 4K TVs. But like 4K TVs are relatively rare. Yeah.

Yeah. I just bought one. You just don't. Hey, got. Hey, he didn't just buy it. He's like, I just bought one. Which ones do you buy? Samsung 50 inch.

Oh, man. I'm Black Friday. You didn't go to the ZOP series? No. I'm Samsung. You're a Samsung guy. For TVs, at least. Why?

I don't know. Like, I have four Samsung TVs. They're always great. You have four TVs? Yeah. Why? Dude lives in Knoxville. He's got, he's got space.

True. True. Fair. I asked my answer, if he was going to live in New York, he's like, I don't know how you live here. I don't. You don't. You don't. It doesn't really make sense.

Straight up. I don't. Why Samsung TV? Because I have a Samsung and I got one because I was like, well, I don't want to do the research. Because I did it, and it got old. And I, like, my research is. out of date and I said screw it I'll just buy a Samsung yeah I screw it I'll buy when I did the research the only TV I found that was better was like the sharp aquos at the time and that was

more expensive so I bought the Samsung and it's been great so far the 4K looks great but I mean there's no content for it I mean Netflix has eight shows yeah like so the content's going to be a big issue do you watch those shows just over and over again yeah I've never actually had good luck with Samsung TVs. You haven't? I don't, I guess I never have bought the most expensive ones. I always, my assumption is always that Samsung, like, in the mid-range, buying the Samsung would, like, be the best. I think they just, and that's not true. Like, I've been burned over and over again. Yeah. They always look really blown out to me. Yeah, some of them do. Like, you have to tune it. It's past, but if you tune it right, it looks good. But most people don't want to tune it because it's pain.

Because they're like, it's a TV. I'll keep the motion smoothing on. Yeah, don't do that. Yeah, that's bad. I mean, TVs are awful. That's why Apple shouldn't build the TV. Because the qualities against which Apple would sell a TV are not the qualities that sell TVs. Right. And the problems that Apple would solve are problems nobody cares about. Right. Apple would make a TV doesn't have motion smoothing. Apple would make a TV that has perfect color or, like, isn't blown out.

And people would be like, that TV looks dim and it doesn't look like a soap opera. Yeah. Right. And they would, I mean, it's just that's what sells TVs in storage right now. All of the TV platforms are garbage, right? Like, that is fair. Like, I have a Panasonic plasma. Yeah.

It is the most garbage platform ever created. I mean, it is just embarrassing. And if you work at Panasonic, you should be embarrassed by this television. You probably don't because you stop selling TVs or you stop selling plasmas. So I'm assuming that that embarrassment has led to some dire consequences in your life. But so goes. Should we continue on? Yeah.

We should, let's just jump ahead, running out of time. We should. I want to talk about Microsoft. You don't talk about Mike? Man, we had some hot Intel Internet of things. Hardcore tech vergecasting. You want to go back to Nguyen? No.

Yeah. It's the same conversation. It is. Basically, it's the conversation of like computers are established. The game is done. Phones are now established. The game is done for a while. There's not going to be huge changes there.

So next is like gilas, doodads, wearables, stuff in your car, the internet of things, thermostats, I don't know. Right. Not TVs. Little random things that have a. circuits in them and chips and are connected to the internet. There was a line at the code conference over this year. I think it was Enafreed said it to the CEO of Blackberry.

She was just very bluntly. It was like, every company that's failed at mobile wants to do the internet of things. Why will you succeed? And then he was like, nonsense. Oh, but you know what? That's why that's because he couldn't say the real reason. It's because Blackberry owns the KUNIX platform and they're killing it in cars. They just stole forward away from Microsoft.

Right. That's not the internet of things. It's just another. Sure it is. It's a thing that's connected to the internet. Hype check. Internet of things. I hate that phrase with a passion.

I won't even say it. I won't even say those words and I don't tweet them. Hang on. Hype check internet hashtags. Wait, wait, wait, wait. You're a troll. Can I just say I won't say those words and I won't even tweet them is like, it's an incredible. That's hashtag teens.

I won't even tweet that. Not even Twitter. she'll get this nonsense for me. I really hate that for you. I have no idea why I'm talking like a haughty baron. Not even Twitter. She'll get these woods. Like a southern barren.

I don't know. So the first question is... You're fopish. Oh my God. I'll take it. Have you looked up the Scarlet Pimpernel yet? No. You should do it.

Let's talk about Microsoft. No, but there's two steps. The first step, which we need to argue about is, do you think the Internet of Things is a thing? Because you seem to be discounting it, and I think it's a thing. I think it's a thing, but... What is it?

What is that phrase? What does that mean? KeyGaw is connected to the internet. I mean, the Minnesota is strong with you today. So, so this computer? No. No. Let Mike again.

Smart watches, smart things in your home, all that kind of stuff. But the question is, how are you going to control all that? I don't think people want to control it by each device. Right. With your mind. You have 20 things in your house that are smart. Yeah, and then North Korea can hack you. You can hack your entire home.

So Intel wants to be that platform. I doubt that's going to happen. Samson wants to be that platform. Everybody wants to be that platform. Internet things, as far as I can tell, is, like, literally it's, like, executives in a room, like, pointing at things. I mean, like, what if that had a Wi-Fi connection? Yeah.

Right? And, like, what could you do if that was connected to a network? And that network was, like, able to talk in two directions to stuff in your house, stuff in the world. Infrastructure. Like, the most interesting Internet of thing stuff to me is, like, vehicle to infrastructure communication, right? Where you're in a car and the car is talking to like the road.

Yeah. The car is talking to the other cars. The car is talking like that's really interesting, right? And to do that, you need to put sensors everywhere. The sensors need to talk to each other. They need to be low power. Like there's many, many platform level things you need to do to build that up. But do you need to do that for your toaster.

So like there's a, like an implicit assumption in all this internet of things talk. as it applies to consumers and not the big infrastructure stuff. The big infrastructure stuff is super important. But for consumers, there's an implicit assumption that we're going to have an iPhone-style revolution pretty soon. And that you need to be ready and you want to be at the forefront of that. This is basically the whole idea behind why people care about Nest. Right. And why Google bought them.

Everybody's like Tony Fidel's got it. He's got the secret vision of how the Internet of Things is. actually going to work and he's just building the pieces right now until he can unveil the sea change, right? Yeah, I don't believe that's true. I mean, I like Tony. Yeah. But I think Tony's secret vision is I'm going to build really great consumer products with home.

Right. I don't think he cares about, I mean, if you ask him what the Nest thermostat is, he's like, it's an iPod touch. We made an iPod touch that's really good at turning things on and off. And then there's a lot of cloud intelligence behind it, and they hired a bunch of people from Google. Like, now they work at Google. Right.

But if you're like, what is this hardware? He's like, it's a cheap arm processor, a little bit of memory, and a display driver, and then a web app. And like that's the thing that it is. Right. And he's very proud of it because he's like, my team is better at building iPod. Like I have the iPod team.

They work at Nest. We're better at building iPods than anybody else. So they're way ahead of that curve. I think if you're Intel or Microsoft or Blackberry or whatever, you're racing to like take mobile technology that you failed at developing and repackage it for another set of uses. Right. And Microsoft is failing all over the place.

They lost sync. Their car platform is gone. But the bigger problem right now for them is they bought Nokia and what's going on there. Like the Windows phone platform is in a dark, dire place. They lost Tom Warren. He's not using one anymore.

All the best Microsoft mobile apps are not on Windows phone. They're very nice on Windows phone, but they're now no longer exclusive and in many cases they're better on other platforms. Oh my God. They don't even have a flagship phone This 1030 at least.

So Tom has it, right? This is a Tom story. Yeah. It came out on another site, but yeah, he's a he identified and confirmed that it was a phone that was meant for this holiday season that had a huge massive camera on it. Yeah. But at least like, make a bonkers phone. Please make a bonkers phone. This thing doesn't look like a phone.

It looks like one of the door panels in 2001. Yeah. Like it looks like it looks like it should be glowing red and then murdering. Sell that thing. I'm serious. This thing reminds me Being murdered by a computer Yeah

I want to buy it What what what what what What kind of phone do you have? An iPhone What kind of what kind of iPhone which one? A bent iPhone Which what size? Which one is it?

He has a six plus You have a six plus Oh he's got it If I had asked you before the six plus You know If I had asked you six months Before the six plus came out What do you think of that that conception

You would have called it a ridiculous thing I'm saying Try it release a religious thing If it doesn't sell You know what You're not doing any worse than all the other Windows phones. That's rough.

That's rough. I mean, it's just this camera hump looks so bonkers. Like, it's so unnecessarily big for what it is, right?

Because the actual lens piece is so small. Yeah. I don't know, man. Anyway, what else can they do? I mean, well,

that's the thing, but, you know, Tom, he didn't leave because he couldn't buy in you. He gave up his Windows friend and went full-time

to an iPhone 6, which he is equally frustrated with, but he's like the apps are really good. Yep. And his whole line is, like Twitter isn't updating its Windows phone app.

Like Microsoft is really good at being like, here's a bunch of money, put out an app for our phone, and then after the other is like, yeah, we love money, and then they put out an app for the phone. And then they walk away. And they walk away

because Microsoft isn't continually pumping money into Twitter to like goose the app or whatever. I don't know, you're your Windows phone user? No. It's been 70 years since the iPhone was released. Everyone's invested in either iOS or Android. They have money in,

apps bought. Do you think money spent on apps is a thing that locks you in? I don't know, I'm like unable to understand this because I bounce too much. I think ease of upgrade is. Yeah. I mean, you don't have to read download all your apps

and things that make it easier to stay inside the ecosystem than trying to go to Windows and learn everything new. Everyone knows how to use Android phone. Everyone knows how to use an iPhone for the most part. You think everyone? If you've had an Android phone, you know how to use 98% of Android phones, except for like the notification center,

which everyone changes every... But outside of that, the core... The core functions, you know how to use. When you walk around in Knoxville, what are people using? Samsung's. Really? Everywhere. Really?

Yeah. And then like GS3s? I'm assuming that's the one. Some notes, old notes. Yeah. Samsung's. It's Samsung and iPhone now. Right.

That's what it is. So I think that's the reason Windows is not going to work well. Right. Or on phones, at least now. They have to do something different. And I don't know. The thing that they're doing different is they're putting out all their apps in iOS. right there like Microsoft's like sure we're software company like Nadella didn't want to buy

Nokia right it's like that much is blindingly obvious yeah like when you when people ask him about it they're like he's like I don't I don't let's not talk about the past but you had no he wasn't the choice really well no he wasn't he wasn't in charge yeah like bomber's like hey here's Microsoft by the way we here's also Nokia Stephen Elop works here no one knows what he's it's poor Elop we do give him a hard time yeah we do. I will say that every time I've interviewed him, I'm like, you are the most polished executive I've ever, ever encountered. So I feel like this hard time is deserved because fundamentally in my heart, I'd like to believe it makes Stephen you have emotions.

What can Microsoft do to make you search the Windows phone? Like, you think about that and there's like nothing that comes to mind, and that's the issue. Well, no, you know, there's, no, it's like, it's hard to express, like, what I'm thinking, right? Like, it's, I know what they're in for Windows phone is, but it's, it's just going to be really hard for them to get there. It's the fact that, like, our company is a Google shop. Yeah. And all of our, like, we are at the breaking point of, like, the Google Enterprise experience. You weren't here for this, but it's been messy.

We've complained about it on the show before, right? Like, Google's Enterprise tools and solutions are fine when your company is 50 people. They're fine when your company is under people. you hit 400 people and you want to like do something a little bit outside of whatever Google thinks it's going to do and that ecosystem of vendors isn't there. Yeah. We are talking about it. It works for major, it works for major universities.

I promised a hardcore enterprise conversation and we're getting it right now. No, I mean like that's it. Like we're at the breaking point. And so Android for me is really attractive all the time because it integrates into like my fully Googled up lifestyle. Yeah. And work and whatever. I think that's right.

It's like attractive for a lot. of reasons for that. I think if we switched to be a hardcore Microsoft shop, like there's a chance if Microsoft could sell me an experience that was better against that. But they have to create an entire set of like lifestyle experiences across home work play. They're doing that.

They're working on that. They're just a lot of work for how long though. Yeah. They just haven't gotten there. I mean, like fundamentally Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't have a luxury. Here's an idea I just had that makes no sense, but here, let's just run with it for a second. Microsoft will never win at this until Bing is better than Google search.

Because everyone's front door to the internet is through Google search, right? It's either Google or Facebook. Those are the two places that you start, right? Most people start. I hope the people who listen to this start at the verge, which is why we'll be selling an Android phone skinned with me. That would be amazing if we had a phone. No, no, it wouldn't. Why not?

A verge? We'd give it a six. Pipe check, V-phone. I can't even... What would that look like? That sounds like I don't even know. I can't even... It would have a BlackBray passport keyboard.

If we had to design a phone, what would it look like? BlackBray passport. I would encourage, and I think this is... That's today's iTunes assignment. Describe the V-phone. It would... Iverge, iPhone, just buy an iPhone. You already have one.

Cool. Way to be... I'm making fun of them. You just make fun of yourself. You don't know what they're going to do. They're going to go do it. I would want Android on my V-Fi. I would want Android, too.

Why? Because... Let's talk about... Let's talk about your jailbreak experience. It's good. Yeah? Honestly, it's less buggy than it was before. Wow.

Yeah, it's pathetic. iOS 8. iOS 8 is so buggy. It is a laugh at a lot of... Are you a jailbreaker? No. No. I jail broke years ago when they didn't have, like, multitasked.

Wait, am I, am I on this now? Let me see. Yeah. That's it right there. What are you doing? He's trying to show off. You know that the... That's not like a cool...

Okay, so here's what Sam is doing. And then... He's scrolling, but like his icons are randomly coming in from different parts of the screen. Yeah, you just... It's not clear why. It's a page swipe, Dieter. Come on. Look.

Hello. Why do you need that? Here's what you showed me. You showed me like the lamest of the lame Android launcher... Lame for you. Animations. And the Nexus screen... Oh, I love that.

That's why... Yeah. Powerdown. Because I would want Android because I don't have to work for that stuff. You want Android. I do want Android. I do because the Google experience is infinitely better. And the notifications suck on iOS.

Notifications still suck on iOS. Notifications are. Wait, can we finish talking about, we haven't actually talked about Microsoft? Yeah. What was the idea that you had? Oh, the Bing idea. Oh, yeah. I mean, no, here's the thing.

So Microsoft is, I think, a really bad idea. Well, it's not a bad idea. Okay. Keep going. They have to win that battle, right? They have to win, I think to win an app game, right? You have to be the app that people open on their phone first. Or choose, like, you can't just, like, release an app in the world, right? You have to have, you want to be on that first home screen, right?

Like, that's a thing I think about when I think about, like, how, if we were to make another Verge app, like, what would it look like? It would have to win that first battle. That's a hard battle. So we killed our app and, like, made a website. Well, we made our website into an app. A web app. Think about it. On Windows phone, they have many issues with that.

It seems like they're giving up on that platform, or at least that platform is not going to get revved until Windows 10 happens. Sync was another platform that Microsoft ran after, and it just has, it's not good. I've never used a sync card that's good. The Xbox, I was actually pointing this out to Tom yesterday. You know, last year we did that story on Xbox TV. Yeah.

Big story. I need to just put this on the website. Every single person in that story, except for one, is either gone from Microsoft or has a radically different job within Microsoft, which is crazy. Like, Xbox as a platform isn't happening. They're just doing games. Like, the idea that Windows will be there. And I know everyone's going to yell at me and say Windows 10 is like the thing. But Windows 10 is easily a year and a half away.

Yeah. And it's cool that they're developing in the open. And like props to Microsoft are like trying to be a different kind of company. but they keep missing the window because they keep setting up to succeed instead of succeeding. Right. That's my Microsoft lecture for the day. I know, Michael, where's your head at? I would rather have a BlackBerry than a Windows phone right now.

What? Wow. What? Yeah. You can't just leave that. You can't just drop that and walk away. Well, I had BlackBrays before. I had BlackBrayers for seven years.

So I'm used to BlackBerry. BlackBray 10? Eight. What was eight? No, but you rather have BlackBerry 10 than Windows phone? Yes. Yeah, you're deeply wrong. You're deeply, deeply wrong about that.

I've used so many windows. Is it just that you want the keyboard? If you can't have an iPhone or an Android phone, you might as well have a keyboard? Yeah, basically. I'm over the keyboard, man. I'm not over the keyboard. I'm not over the keyboard either. No, no, no, no.

I was diehard BlackBerry. It took me four years to give up my BlackBray for an iPhone. Wow. Because of the keyboard, Mike, right? The keyboard. I'm a huge, huge advocate for the hardware keyboard. Huge. I can type on a keyboard on a Blackberry keyboard.

It's ridiculous. Exactly. Completely ridiculous. I've never owned a Blackberry, but I was a huge sidekick person. Lightning fast. You know, the funny thing is, if you were to actually, like, go and participate in the studies where they actually test your speed and accuracy, it's not, it's, it feels faster and it feels better. That's what I'm about the experience.

I don't really care about the science. I care about when, when the screen is wet or my fingers are numb and I can't type in the cold, Like the hardware is always reliable with hardware keyboards. Though that's totally not true. I had the eight months I had my Psychic LX. I was a type beast. Sam, Sam. I have so many things.

Like, Dieter's leaving. He just walked out of the room. He's just yelling and Sam in the corner of the room. The psychic Alex was the best hardware keyboard I've ever used on a phone. Hold on. I need an RLRT everything, San just said. Dieter just walked up to me and sonned me, basically. He was like, what are you doing? Type, type beast.

I'm all about the experience. I don't care about the science. Sam, Sheffer, everybody. Micah, Micah, can you chime in on this? The keyboard was great. I can't like lie. The keyboard was... Like the hardware keyboard on phones.

You and Joanna. I never liked hardware keyboard. Oh, you're wrong. Hardware keywords are the best. They were the best. So now you're on our side. Oh, yeah, no. I don't know.

I know it's not better. I know it's not faster. I know it's not more accurate. It just feels better. Yeah. I don't know if it was like... But only if it's on a vertical portrait slider.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's running WebOS. Then it's great. Oh. All right, quick. Dieter Bone. Yeah.

And I ask you a question. Here we go. Palm Pre. Oh, God. Or Windows phone. Well, the apps have been updated about it on the same schedule. Oh, that's a huge burn. Pre?

Free. Free. You'd go pre. No, I'm just kidding. I would definitely. I would definitely go Windows phone. Maybe you should switch a Windows phone for a while. Well, when the Packers are losing the playoffs, you're going to be.

Yes. Is there a bet? Is there an actual bet? There's a bet. What's the bet? If your team loses, Nilei, you have to use a Windows phone. But in what game? We got to see.

In general, just that win out? Whenever your team plays next. That would be interesting to see. That'd be interesting if you use the Windows phone. Let's see. Yes. Oh, God. I don't think.

We should talk about CS just for a little bit. Oh, yeah. You come to CS with us, right? I don't think anything is going to happen to this year, CS. I think it's going to be a repeat of last year. No. Super quiet. Yeah.

The internet of hype things. Yeah. I mean, I love CS. I'm probably the only tech reporter in the game who loves CES. I love CES too. I do. Everyone else complains. We basically have a party.

And it's like, and everyone in the industry is there. Yeah. And they're a little bit drunk. Electric skateboards. A lot drunk. Electric ride. Yeah. And Sam literally just cruises around the parking lot of convention center on different motors.

Be prepared to see lots of electric coverage. Electric longboards, electric things. The internet of electric things. Oh, my God. I think it's just going to be the internet of things and more 4K TVs, pretty much. This is last year. I mean, it's a TV show. Yeah, it really is.

But this thing about internet things, like, the more I, this is crystallizing in my head. Like, all of these companies spent all of this money chase. mobile, right? They developed low power processors until tried really hard to do low power processors. They developed like embedded stacks that they did all the like bring up to do like small circuit board like they did all the work to make things that are like mobile. And now they're like we're never going to win at the mobile game. What do we do with small things? Like what do we do with small low power stuff that we made? Oh and I thought is when you put it into an internet of thing thing, thing you don't have to build a

UI because you're already bad at it. It's like, oh, we suck at making things easy to use, but this doesn't have a screen and you don't interact with it. It's just like evilly, intelligently, like, doing things and just pulsing in the corner. It's just a Roomba with a knife. BlackBerry's internet of things. It's just a room like a knife duct tape to the front. It's just like pulsing at it.

All right. I think that, oddly enough, has been our show. Sam, you want to lead the engagement hour? I will. The engagement hour, I like that, but it's going to be a minute. That's our show. All right, I'm going to gain my composure. That's our show.

Thank you for watching. You can follow us on Twitter. We are at Verge. You should definitely add us on Snapchat. And if you guys saw the Dead Mouse thing, there is a lot more of that kind of stuff coming. We are the Real Verge on Snapchat. And it's interesting because I can sort of tell who's watching the Vergecast and when because for the next week, random bursts of followers come to Snapchat.

I'm like, oh, that person probably just watch the Vergecast. And then I check Twitter. And you should also tweet, I watch the Vergecast if you watch the Vergecast because I see you out there. Watcher slash listener. Sam is our Rumba with a knife. I am. I'm going to keep poking. This is a lot of work.

And then last, I mean, if you like us, if you feel so on. Social it up. And you should go on iTunes. rate us. No, no, I haven't. Stop. We have a mission. There's an iTunes mission. Everyone gets an assignment. Yeah, yeah. So for the handful of haters last week you shut up on our iTunes, I appreciate you. That's why you got a show about Enterprise apps

today. I hope you're happy. You're welcome. But the rest of you should go on iTunes. Leave us a good review, and here's what I like to. I would like you to describe the ultimate Verge phone. And don't say, don't say an iPhone because that's an iPhone. It's an iPhone with a sticker on it that says I verge. And it's just pulsing at you.

With a knife. It's an iPhone monitor and Roomba and the iPhone has a knife. We're also all on Twitter. Neely is at Reckless. Deeter is at Backlon. Micah is... Micah Singleton. Micah Singleton.

And I am at Sam Shepher. And again, tweet us. I have a tweet tech column set up for Vergecast. So if you tweet it, I'll see it. And I think that's our show. And will we be back next Thursday? Maybe. Maybe.

Yeah. We have the party next week, right, at some point? I mean, we have the show at 4.30, so unless you're going to start raging in the mid-afternoon. I'm trying to verge cast for like six hours. Yes, yes. There is a holiday party for a company, but it does not start at 4.30. I'm just making sure I'm going to go to the place. All you people have been raging right now.

I see you. Drinking a beer? Is that? That's raging? Bye. I guess that's our show. Ragecast. Goodbye.