The Vergecast - Siri, Sierra, Photokina, and Allo

Episode Date: September 23, 2016

Apple ended our summer with the release of both new hardware and software. Now that fall has finally arrived, we await the next big tech event...from Google. This week on Vergecast, Nilay, Paul, Ashley, and Dieter float between these two rituals with reviews and rumors about both companies. Throw in a bit of prosumer camera talk and we’ve got a show goin’. 01:17 - iOS10 11:18 - Siri 15:02 - macOS Sierra 21:31 - Apple rumored to buy McLaren and Lit 23:06 - Autodesk Graphic ad 24:05 - Photokina, cameras, and photos 34:55 - Northeastern U ad 35:47 - Google Allo, Assistant, and upcoming event 52:14 - Paul’s weekly segment “Medium format in the moonlight” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast, verge.com. The website, about your life. Yeah, is that what it's about? You know, it's about how we live, how we talk, how we breathe. I was wondering why you guys have those pictures of me. I'm Nilai Patel, the host of the Vergecast and founder of a small vodka label called Cizervaca. Cut through the night. Paul Miller's here.

Hello. Hey, Paul. Let's go, man. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Dieter Bone on the phone. What? That's a rhyme.

What do you want? Teeter's angry. Theater's been in a real mood lately. Ashley Carmen is here. Hello. Ashley was sternly instructed to, quote, bring the heat. And I use the fire emoji. So a lot of promises from Ashley.

We'll see how that goes. But I expect this to be a very warm podcast indeed. I know that means. Look, it's been a weird week. I would say slow week, but full of moderate scale controversies, opinions. Well, it's a slow week or it's the hottest week, depending on how much you care about pro sumer camera gear. Yeah.

The answer is so much, Paul. I knew it. But it's also in the week's people got their iPhones 7. So a lot of sort of early reactions. Let's just get into it. Dieter, you reviewed iOS 10. I did. I would say four to five days late, but you did it.

Yes. You got it out there. We actually, we did wait a minute on it because I think it's great, But the real thing with it is that apps can now plug into so many different parts of the operating system. In Dieter, very cleverly, gave himself a longer deadline because he was waiting for apps to update so he could like use the whole thing. So Deeter, why don't you talk about that a little bit? I think it's pretty great. I think that I wanted to wait for useful apps in IMessage and in Siri.

And I was not rewarded for waiting. It's fine. Like you can call an Uber from Siri. some of the stickers and iMessage are cool. The more interesting thing is like the fact that they exist in the abstract that these apps no longer have to live just inside their icons. But like the big three things to know about, well, the big three things are about in terms of where apps live is they can be inside iMessage and do things to make it look like

a, I think I called it a phantasmagoria. It's just too much for me. They just learned a lot from Snapchat. They can be in Siri, but only certain cat, categories and classes of apps. And I would say about half the time you're using Siri, you're talking to Siri. And then it's like, you need to finish this in the app. It's like, okay, well, why didn't I just open the frickin app in the first place? And then there again in widgets, which were there in iOS 9, but they were like hidden off in a corner of the OS. But now

they're like, you swipe left from the home screen. They're there. You swipe left from the lock screen. They're there. You swipe left from the notification screen. And they're there. And as a person who has been trying to make widgets or home screen widgets useful in my life since, I kid you not, like 2003. Deep in my heart, I want widgets to be a thing. I want them to matter. I want people to use them. I want them to be useful. I know that that's never going to come true because they never have, but like I still believe. I'm sorry. Are you a confabulator user? Were you a confabulator user? Were you a confabulator user? Isn't that the predecessor?

Yeah. That's like the widget's grain daddy. There's the third thing that Apple ever Sherlocked. You know this? Oh, they didn't buy it? No. Do you know what Sherlocking, Ashley? Mm-mm.

So in the, like the early 2000s, Apple had this long history of coming out with new versions of the operating system. And the Mac operating system. Oh, the Mac. Yeah. MacOS. MacOS. And the hot new feature would always be,

they would like go and look at all the third. party utilities and pick one they liked not buy it, copy it, and roll it it out. So there was one called Watson which everybody loved and Apple released one called Sherlock. Oh, it was called Watson. Yeah. And the poor guy made Watson was like, well fuck

you guys. And Apple's like, yeah, it just happens. And then Confabulator was a whole widget platform that people loved. And Apple rolled out dashboard and just killed Confabulator. Yeah, like, they've done it over and over and over again. Yahoo bot confabulator. Yes, Yahoo bought confabulator. Fun fact, confabulator users, your email's been hacked.

Yeah. Bad choice. Should have let the Watson flow over you. Sorry, the Sherlock. The other problem I have with OS10 is, oh, it's not a problem. All that other stuff is great. The problem is, like, the interaction model for notifications is just broken. It's just fundamentally broken.

have to like 3D touch everything now. And like the swiping does different things depending if you're on the notification panel or if you're on the lock screen. And you never can tell if you've got a million notifications which one of those you're in. So you'll like start swiping on a notification. Nothing will happen. You don't know why. I don't understand why Apple can't just steal this one thing from Android and just make the notifications consistent. That's all I want.

Yeah. Whenever I get a notification and move or touch my finger to that notification, I want it to do. the same thing all the time. Is that too much to ask? I have a short-term memory for interface convention, but I know that everything I try to do in iOS 10 is wrong. So I know I must have been trained by iOS 9 to do a different thing, but I don't remember what it is. And yeah, I keep on dismissing them. You just the 3D touch on everything. Yeah. I don't know how to 3D. You just got to push really hard. Yeah, just from now on the rule for iOS 10 is just push really hard on everything all the time.

Just jam your finger into that screen. Jam your finger onto the home button on your iPhone 7. Just get really, really aggressive with the thing and you'll be fine. I feel like any touch didn't go off. So I got to say, first of all, I think iOS 10 is way better than iOS 9.

It's super polished in so many ways. It makes a lot of sense. I like the I message stuff, but mostly because I control Dieter just at a level that no one previously thought possible It's like, all that's fun, and it's great, and it's like, good to see them open up. But the 3D touch, it just feels like it didn't go off last year.

No app developers really got into it. So Apple was like, we're going to force people to know it's there. Yep. By hiding shit in it. And it just, ugh. Like, the fact that you can, maybe this is good. Maybe we'll do this all the time. Maybe I'm just crazy.

But the fact that you can now 3D touch any icon on the home screen, and one of the options is always share this app. Yeah. And then you can share a link to the app. It's like, no, I'm never going to share Instagram with anyone. They already have it. I'm never, ever going to share fucking messages. Like, oh, no, no, no.

That's the only way you can get people to use Allo with you, man. It's just so silly. It's like, I don't know, it just feels like they need it to do something. So they tried, you know, there was like a team that was like the 3D touch team. They weren't getting enough love. Yeah. And it's like, let's add pressure sensitivity. anything and they walked around all the rooms on campus and they're like hey what happens when you

when you push hard on the screen in your app and they were like nothing and they're like name a feature of your app and they're like I don't know sharing and I get that one what no no it's just ridiculous it's right click the yeah it is right click the one thing I like it for is podcasts yeah it basically shows like the four most recent podcasts this is my first 3D touch phone I'm learning a lot yeah oh you've got the seven. Oh, that's another place for which it could show up. Wait, wait, wait, wait, everyone? Wait. Everyone let's stop. Okay. I didn't see this before. Paul picked up

his phone. He's sitting on table. He's 90 degrees from me at a small circular table. His phone was sitting on the table. I saw it there. I didn't realize this. Paul went to pick up his phone to begin, you know, exploring 3D touch and revealed that he has just left the headphone

dongle plugged into it. Just no headphones, just the fucking toggle. I look out one. It looks so wrong. And gross. Every argument I've ever made about this thing is exemplified in that moment. It's not, is it fine?

It's probably fine. You know what's not fine? Yeah. It said T-Mobile hasn't figured out how to activate. T-Mobile really wanted me to buy the iPhone 7 from T-Mobile. Yeah. And I went along with their plan. I was like, okay, T-Mobile, if you think you got this, oh, we got this.

So they sent me one. in the mail after I paid for it and it came to my house with a SIM already in it and I can get phone calls on it. Yeah. I can't. I can't. The data is not activated. I think it might have something to do because they simultaneously put me on this new plan.

Yeah. It's unlimited. It's very confusing. If you can figure out how to use it, you'll have all the. Maybe that's their trick. Man, if we don't let them use any data, we can call it unlimited. No limits. Be free to do nothing.

This is just like my personal. I haven't, like, found other people talking about this. It's just, like, my special cursed gadget hell that I always find some way to make something not work. But that's why you're here. Yeah. I thought we were going to not talk about the headphone jack. I'm not the one who leaves his dongle plugged in. It's so, so.

He's, like, waving. He's hanging. Anyway. Oh, my God. They should make, like, a wallet chain, but it's a headphone jack dongle slash chain. and then you could have it looped around, you know, like your wall. Ashley, if I feel if there was ever a time for you to bring the heat, it's in response to the wallet chain iPhone case idea.

I'm telling you, man. Bring it back. I mean, I'm just going to say no. I don't think I need to say anything else. I didn't say it was a good idea. I just said that they should do it. So iOS 10, we got to stick to, we did the phone forever last week. iOS 10.

Do you have anything other big thoughts? Like the fact that they're breaking down the walls of their various things, but they're not letting you set a default email. Yes, exactly. Like, you want to use the iPad Pro as your main computer. And the thing that holds you back is, like, there are things, like, deep into the OS that, like, you can do on a Mac that you can't do on an iPad,

or you can do on Windows that you can't do in an iPad. And sometimes you don't want to do that stuff, and that's fine. But, like, having the option every now and then is actually kind of important. And rather than just, like, saying, okay, we figure out the security model, we're going to open this stuff up for power users. Apple is just like opening tiny little doors. It's like you guys know what an Advent calendar is?

Yes. Yes. So it's like it's the Advent calendar. And then every day leading up to the day when iOS is actually useful, Apple lets you open up one more door to get a little chocolate of usability. And, you know, we're finally now on like, I don't know, December 17th of the Advent calendar. And we've just hopefully got just a few more days,

aka years to have it be on par in terms of like the flexibility you actually need from your primary computer. Basically all I want to know is I don't use Siri. Should I be using Siri? No. Okay. All right, cool. Yeah, really, no. Yeah, I didn't think it would change my life at all.

I try to use Siri a lot. Like, I want it to work. It never works. The best it can do, the best use for Siri is if you know Siri can't answer your question, it is a slightly faster way to search the web. I like it for alarms. Last night, my phone was out of arms reach. So I said, hey, Siri, set an alarm for 7 a.m.

And then I slept down. If you use, like, Apple. I try to do that so that everybody's phones would go. Yours did. No one else is. If you use Apple reminders, it's good. But I don't. If you use, like, sometimes it's okay for, like, setting calendar stuff.

But, yeah, I don't know. I use it in the car. That's it. Yeah, I try to make it call me an Uber yesterday. But Uber has the continual problem of not actually knowing where I am. So allowing the robot to just ask a car to go somewhere somewhat at random. I can't. My phone thinks that I live where I used to live like five years ago and I can't find the one

setting that tells my phone where I actually live. So I definitely would not trust it for Uber. But wait, with this new app integration, Deeter, can you make Siri add reminders to a different thing? Because that would be great. I use reminders. That would be really nice. It does not do that. All of these intelligent assistants, the only one that's actually open is Alexa. Everything else is super locked down and you've got to like form a partnership. Siri is slightly more open and that they have an API for different apps to talk to it. But they're only allowing certain categories of apps. And that would be calls, messaging, payments, photos, ride sharing apps, car play stuff.

so like you can tell to turn the heat down in your car and work out apps. So we got to wait to open a few more Advent calendar doors to get reminders integration. Right, which is like, I don't know, fine, but also, I don't know, it's super Apple. It's different from Apple in the past. They're not like way locked down,

but it's still like you've got to wait for permission from Apple to do the thing that you want to do on your computer rather than just doing the thing you want to do in your computer. Yeah. I just want to say my least favorite part of iOS is that I always have a bunch of notifications on my lock screen. And I used to be able to just clear like a couple and then all of them would clear. And now I have to go through all of them manually. Do you have, which phone do you have?

iOS 6 or the 6S. Oh, just hold the button down. Just push the X at the top and you get a clear all button. I'm telling you. Can't believe you weren't forced touching. All you have to do in iOS 10 is just push it really hard. But wait, but when I forced touch, I thought it gives me the reply. No, no, the X.

No, no, the X. Oh, the X. Yeah, so you hold the X10. Maybe we should do like some service. Wait, now I'm like... Some service... Oh, go ahead. Hold on.

Let me make sure that's true. Like a little how-to guide. Does that work? Yeah, it works. Wait, wait, wait, wait. It's like, here's how to use iOS 10. It's like, you're pushing this hard. And it's a little image that shows how many pressure, how much pressure.

Yeah. You can say it's adjustable. What's the metric for pressure? But if I'm just on the lot... Okay. Is that? Yeah, which is, you know, really, really, like, metaphorically rich.

You got to like up your Newton's. Poor Casey. This is all just going to go bad for Casey. Oh, the Newton message pad. I was thinking of just Casey Casey dropping the hammer. But that's not immediately what you think of

when you hear Newton's of force. Casey's forthcoming rap album dropping the hammer, lead single Newton's of force. Newton's of Force. Let's talk about Sierra. So I installed Sierra today. And then immediately got an email from our studio IT saying saying don't install Sierra you'll break the Terra block

The tar block is a video storage solution that we have but I don't use it right because I mostly just type into Twitter But I didn't I installed it I have Siri on this thing now Hey could you copy and paste something real quick? It doesn't work I haven't gotten it to work Deter have you gotten universal copy and paste towards no I'm I am refusing to install Sierra because my favorite mac utility Carabiner with a K which lets you remap the caps lock key to any button you want doesn't work yet. You gotta wait for it. That is so hyper-specific. Wait, you need a special utility to do this?

Yeah. I feel like I do that from my system preferences. You feel like that, but you're wrong. My feelings are wrong, Paul. Maybe to make it a key command. Yeah, I have it mapped to F-17, which doesn't exist on a keyboard, but F-17 launches Alfred. Dieter has deep thoughts about the caps lock key and it's overall utility.

Okay, yeah, you can... If you haven't been around for the past five years, you might have no other. But to control option or command or caps lock. So I have a set as control. Okay, but you can't do magical imaginary function keys. I mean, this computer is, this particular Mac Quick Pro is dying so hard. I was like, you know what? I can't make it worse.

I would say it's moderately better. But it is very much, I mean, we've talked about the Mac on the show so many times. There's just nothing happening here. Like, adding Siri to this and some tiled windows, it's very, it's very, very. very much like using the web browser and Slack and Twitter app on my back. So Jake wrote the review for it and his thoughts actually lined up really well with what I thought in the preview, which is that series of least interesting part of it. The most interesting part is that they basically brought IDISC back.

And although it's been buggy for people, the dream of like regular normals being able to have their desktop and documents folder magically sync to the cloud is like a really good idea. Hopefully they can like nail the implementation a little bit better. That's like cool. I mean, I always say that the first thing happened when I installed Sierra on the smack, and it rebooted, a window popped up that said, would you like to sync your desktop and documents folder to the cloud? And I was like, yeah, that sounds great. I'll be able to look at all the screenshots of my desktop for my phone. And then I said, okay. And then it said, sinking 48 gigs of stuff. I was like, I don't need my desktop in the cloud right now. Like, you know what? Don't need that. And you got to pay for that, too. It's, yeah, I mean, and of course, like, look, if you have a medium good internet service and you'd like eight bucks a month, I'm your guy, because I'll just sign up for it and forget about it. Right. It happens with, I think I'm paying for title still. The last title customer, Neil have I but tell.

Wait, actually, I forgot to ask you, is I message blowing up your world? Not at all. Really? Really? I was so excited about it, and none of my friends care. And none of them are even using any of the features. We use gifts occasionally. Yeah.

I'm the one in my group of friends who's just like lasers. Every message lasers. I think it's because everything is the forced touch. And it's like, who wants to do that? Well, for the effects. Right. Like, I don't want to, and to react to something, you have to force touch on the, like, it's just too much. Yeah.

I don't want to go through those steps. But the stickers are great. The stickers are great, especially Dommy's stickers. Did she make a sticker pack? Yeah. Me and Paul got exclusive preview. What? The beta for Dommy's sticker pack.

Dommy made a stick. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's all happening. Yeah. This is why you listen in the Vergecast. so you can buy our products and services and I don't want to blow up her spot

but it got rejected for the next thing What? Wait, what? Why? No. We might have to edit all this out of the podcast. No. Because she said it as

4 plus and one of the sticker says IDGAF. Oh my God. Come on. Are you kidding? That's what she, that's her theory. Man. Wow.

I mean, it technically is one. And they took like a week to review that. There was a meeting. I'm sure there's like a lot of stickers. There was a meeting. They put up the sticker. Such good stickers.

Do you think that stands for fudge? There's like a judge. It's like, no, no, I've overruled. I wish there was an app store court. You know Apple's show Planet of the Apps? It should be app store court. It should be app court. Oh my God.

That's so smart. And it's just rejected app developers going in front of Phil Schiller who's dressed in like a wig and Judges Roe. Do you think Phil Schiller should be? be Judge Wapner though? Who should who should the Wapner of App Court be? It's got it's got to be Shiller, that's what I'm saying. But like in a long wig. Wait, and then there should be like

the bailiff. It's all coming together for you, isn't it? And then there's like shady behind the scenes dealings or first party developers at Apple get stuff into because they're like trading favors. Yeah, like Miamoto's like what if I had my

own AppStra page? It just said notify instead of buy. I'm sure it was like meet me in the parking lot. That's so annoying, because every time I open the app store now, it's like, Mario Run, it's the best new app. I'm like, oh, they released it. I followed for it three times. I signed up for notification three times. Because what if this is the time?

What if they forgot to notify me? Is it every the time? Well, apparently not. Wait, so, Ashley, what's your messaging app of choice? Oh, I use message. Yeah, but you just don't use any of the effects. No. I'm going to hit you with some lasers.

Once you really understand what lasers is and what it's for It kind of changes your entire I've tried to get my friends use it like I'll do it to them because I'm like do it back I want to see what it looks like and then they don't and I'm like that was the whole point Yeah, no one's never even tried it I did find a use for there's the one that like lands the thing and it shivers Oh yeah and my friend told me that he was like going a second date with a girl and I was like ooh And I did that and I like shivered on the screen and he was like I hate you Because it completely encapsulated the like

like 90s teen show like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Why aren't there Taptic engine iMessage effects? Where you can just buzz them? Where I could like have special buzzes

on the messages. Or like a dot da-da-da-da-da-da- You're not going to knock? Do you know my favorite Taptic Engine gimmick is right now? It's so stupid. It's the breathe app

on the watch that reminds you to breathe. When it's telling you to inhale, it like taps you ever faster to make it feel like, the watch is expanding. Yeah. Only,

that does not sound relaxing at all. I bet that sounded great. So two other Apple things, then we should move on. Actually,

they're the same thing, but in different ways. Apple rumored to buy a McLaren, the super car company, the super car company, but also a super car company. And Apple rumored to

buy lit motors, like a motorcycle self-balancing startup. That'd be cool. The car stuff just kind of kind of doing. They're buying some AI stuff too.

McLaren denied it, but the tense was weird. So it was like they denied. They're like, we haven't had any talks today. I just wanted to be true. Yeah. I just like, there's a part of me that like, man, if I had that cash, I'd be buying a lot of companies. Yeah. So it's just like, please, Apple, let me live vicariously through you where I can buy McLaren in a fantasy world.

We did, Jordan Gelson did a great story for us. It was like, this makes perfect sense. And like a lot of it makes perfect sense. like McLaren is super high-end material science people. They're obviously great at building cars. They're deep in carbon fiber and surfaces and control engineering. And the last one was like, and our office was designed by the same architect as Apple's office. And you know that one's like on Tim Cook's list.

He's like, ooh, yeah. We won't even have to change the furniture. Just move right in. Anyway, that stuff's happening. I don't, you can speculate. But the Apple car stuff continues to be hot, even in face of reports kind of early. this month that they were rebooting the project. But it's out there.

It's some news. I'm going to read an ad, and then I actually do want to talk about Photokina, and I know Ashley has some hot fire about printed photos to talk about. So it's such hot fire. If you're looking for a professional vector design app, you should take a look at Autodesk Graphic. Graphic is a full-featured app for making icons, illustrations, UI, and UX design, and everything else you'd expect,

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So if you have an iPad Pro and Apple Pencil, Graphic is the vector design app you've been looking for to make your pro the device you use for design work that you'd otherwise leave to your desktop. Graphic is the last 2D design app you'll ever need and it's available for the price of a few decent stock photos. Just visit Graphic.com to learn more about Autodesk Graphic or check it out on the app store. And we're back. So Photokina happened. Vlad, we're a great piece for us. Photokina, you know, we go to a few of these smaller trade shows a year. This is usually a really fun one because cameras are fun and their beautiful look at and all that stuff. This one seemed really down. Really? There was like a big, you know, Fuji put out a crazy medium format digital

back. Canon rev the M series, which is their mirrorless thing, which is exciting because you can use the family of Canon lenses with it. But overall very down. And Vlad's point was, look, there's only two companies that really makes sensors, Canon and Sony. Everybody else is dependent on them. And smartphones are just generally getting so good that the entire bottom to middle the market is getting eaten away. Well, that bottom and the middle thing has been going on for a while. I mean, the thing that I thought was really interesting is that the top end, like the pace of innovation isn't happening at a place where there's any need to replace

what you currently have. Yeah. I mean, I think there was the moment when smartphones ate the point-and-chute and everybody wanted to buy either a cheap DSLR or a mirrorless rig. I certainly did. I suspect a lot of our listeners did that. And it was fun. It's like cool to carry on one of those vintage range findery mirrorless rigs.

And they are spectacularly beautiful things. So it was fun to have them. But like, I don't know, the iPhone 7 plus, that depth feature rolled out in the beta today. Wow. It's so amazing. Yeah. You see them playing with it? Yeah.

And Mark took a photo of me and I was just like, damn. You're like, I look good. Yeah. Wow. I look great today. No, but I mean, I was just, I was blown away, actually. Two of our video people went outside and shot test photos of Andrew and Brian Park and the cops stopped them. Really?

Because they brought a reflector. And he thought it was like an illegal professional. photo shoot and I'm like no it's just an iPhone whoa so that I mean that looks really good so like the improvement now is eating into the mirrorless rig and also there's no reason to buy a new mirror if you bought a mirrorless camera three years ago there's not much of a reason to buy a new one yeah right I'm sure there's a point where yeah we already take photos like what do you need more resolution for unless you're like need to like crop way in on your photos or something like that you don't you don't need a ton more fidelity.

I guess probably cameras are mostly, man, I'm just making this up, but I would imagine. What they do is they steal your soul. Camera steal your soul is the problem. Never look into the lens. But the glass. The glass is the, what is the, why can't I think of the word? The bottleneck. The bottleneck.

Hey, you want to start that sensor over and we'll just edit this part out? Glass is the bottle. God, that's so well said. You're so eloquent. Because the sensors are amazing, and the camera will be like, you know, $2,000, and it's like all the camera you'll ever need, right? But then you need to spend $15,000 on glass to really use the whole thing. Here are the things that would get me to buy, like, if I were going to,

if I needed something like a DSLR, I would buy one that's a couple years old. If I were to want to buy something new, they'd either have to radically improve the connectivity so I'm not dealing with like garbage like get my phone to connect to the camera's Wi-Fi network. Maybe maybe Bluetooth next year will be better. But they need to like make the thing feel like it's connected to the internet in a much more tangible way than it is. But they haven't done that. Or, and the thing I'm actually waiting for is like these new medium format cameras, like they're getting close to feeling like a more traditional DSLR.

And like that is what I want. I like that's why that Fuji is really interesting to me. But, you know, it's like a pretty first-gen. But, like, I don't see any reason if the camera is not going to be radically connected to buy a new DSLR unless it is one of these medium formats. And, like, in a year or two, when they get, like, a little bit more mature, like, that would be my reason to upgrade. Otherwise, I don't see the value. Yeah, I think I was just looking, you know, when you're up, there's, like, the new photos in iOS 10 on Sierra. So, like, you know, whenever you, like, play with the photos app, you end up looking at old photos.

And like five years ago, I took fewer photos, but they were all way better because I was either going out with my Canon S series, which was like a really nice point in shoot, or I was taking my DSLR out. And now I just use my phone. So I take way more photos. But they're all of noticeably lower quality because I'm just like, I'm taking a photo with my phone. And I used to have to think about it a little bit more. and like I don't know how I feel about that tradeoff at all. Like I have so many better photos of vacations I took three years ago because I took all those photos on a D7,000, which was a pain in the ass to take everywhere.

But it was a tank, and so I actually stopped worrying about hurting it. But I took it everywhere, and there's a huge pain to lug it around, but I took better photos with it. And now I just like take my phone. And I have way more photos of all the vacations I've been recently. I feel like that's how I feel with like film cameras, though. Yeah. Like if I have a film camera or,

like a disposable even, I have to think about what I'm taking, and that adds some levity to it. Yeah. Whereas I would never bring a big camera out on a vacation because I'm like, I'm my phone. Like, I'll just do whatever. But if I have that film, something about the film will make me more. Yeah. Well, you have a whole riff about, like, printing photos. Well, I'm more just like who's buying cameras.

Yeah. Honestly, I'm serious because I don't know anyone who's bought a camera in the past. Not even like film cameras? I have a bunch of like Artie Brooklyn friends who have all bought silly film cameras in the past year or two. I mean, I know people bought like Instax. Right. I don't know anyone who bought a DSLR. Or any nicer, like, point and shoot type camera.

Right. But the Instax thing is like really interesting because it's blown up. I see him everywhere. Yeah, no, that's what's cool. That's not saying, like, I wrote about two cameras, one of which is like a joke, the Michael Coors in Stacks. But I feel like they speak to a trend of like, maybe it's just consumer, like mind of consumers like me who just want to buy these more tangible objects, something that they can actually

have fun with and not spend a lot of money. But it's different than your phone. So it's fun. Yeah. How much is the Michael Coors? I think it was like 140. Okay. It's $140? Yeah. Is that a lot for Instax? Or is it just branded Michael Coors. Okay. So it's $20 for like. I believe it was only $20 for it. It's like a champagne plastic. Yeah. Let me double check. Core's premium. Yeah. Michael Core's signature on the back. You know, Lady Gaga's Polaroid's creative director. She never did anything with that, but Michael Corr's, he figured it out. To be honest.

Ashley, if I'm buying an Instax camera, which one should I get? Not the Michael Corr. Come on. No, I mean, like, I think. That's literally $30. That's like the good compact cameras, like the really good mirrorless cameras, they're like $1,000. Yeah. And the Instax would be a lot.

If you want to have a tangible object, but you don't want it to be your life. Yeah, exactly. It's more just fun. And that's what camera should be. But you also read about the HP Sprocket printer, which one of the best posts in the site this week. Just because it's so full of true. This is really great. This is really great. This is how it happened. Sean was like, hey, HP sent me this thing that I don't want to deal with. You want to check it out? So I walked over to Sean's desk. He handed it to me.

It was covered in pictures. Tell the people what it is. Of happy vacation women. Yeah. It's a portable Bluetooth printer made by HP. Yeah, Happy Vacation Women, by the way, the best unreleased Pet Shop Boys album of all time. So I opened the box and I was like, this isn't for me. And I closed the box and I walked over to Ashley, handed it to her and then went back to my desk.

I just love that Ashley wrote this. It's basically a review of the product without a photo of the product or even a photo of its output. It's just pictures of things that you can make in the app that are just blatant trolls of people sitting around. If you know, you don't know anything about our office. You're in your car. You're listening to this. You're cruising on the highway. You're having a good time. Here's a situation in our office at the verge every day. There is a couch cabal.

It used to be kitchen for a brief period. When did it move from the kitchen to the couch? We got rid of the orange couches and got the really bad ones briefly. So here, there was a couch cabal. We bought new couches that were way nicer. There was like a mutiny. Everybody went into the kitchen. We threw the new

couches away, brought the old couches back. This is irrelevant. The real power and the verge, it's not me, it's not Dieter, it's the couch cabal. It's terrifying. Like, I don't go over there. Not hip enough for the couch cabal. But if you know where Ashley sits usually on the couch and you look at this post, you're like, she didn't even get up. She literally wrote this thing right here.

One of the photos that she printed out is a screen cap from her Facebook left. Ashley, you did a really good job. Tell us about Sprocket. It is a Bluetooth printer. You can print from your phone. I think the schick is you're supposed to print your Instagrams, but the app is way better because it lets you put stickers and write on the photos. But it's silly.

But silly. Oh, it's a joke. And it's like $10 a print, right? It is, I believe, $10 for 20 prints, which are stickers. There you go. Like physical stickers. It doesn't want stickers in their house. Exactly.

But this is what I was saying to Paul is that, I don't know. know what to do with these photos. Where do you store them? I have a real question. Where do you store real things? Like photos? Where do you store them? Tangual media is like a real thing. Where do you put it? I had to search for a rack to put like a media bookcase.

Like the market for those is so collapsed that they're all bad. Like are you looking for one with like all those like slots for like individual that like keep each one. Well this used to be like a large part of the market. You have a lot of printout photos. Like you could do scrapbooking. There's like boxes. There's finders. How do you feel about a cork board?

Yeah. I feel like if I was going to get heavy into physical media right now, I'd go looking for a cork. Paul's like, Paul's pinning up VHS tapes to a cork board. All right. We're going to do one more quick. Wait, we didn't find out how Ashley feels about cork boards. Paul, obviously, no. Oh, wow.

That's what we ask. There it is. Circuit breaker team on. fire today. I'm going to be one quick ad. We've got to come back. Deeter, I want to talk about Allo. I want to talk about the pixel event that's coming up.

I want to talk about the HECC bolt. I got a line in here about the HTC HD2. No. I mean, yes. There's a whole thing. So listen to this advertising. Take it into your soul. And we're going to go back.

We're talking about Google. This episode of Vergecast is brought to you by Northeastern University's DeMore Kim School of Business. Northeastern University's DeMore Kim, School of Business, offers the master's degree for corporate entrepreneurs, the MS and innovation. The program, available 100% online and complete in just one year, is designed to develop leaders and change agents within the corporate setting. If you want to foster explosive growth within your organization

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Get started today by visiting MSInInnovation.com. That's MSNininnovation.com. So we're back. Deeter, tons of Google stuff going on. Yeah. You reviewed Allo with the deck, This is Fine, which is amazing. And then they're starting to hit, they're doing a big ad campaign about their event coming up next month. Let's go through it all. So Allo is a text messaging app that Edward Snowden very much does not want you to use.

Yeah, Snowden tweeted our link. He, like, tweeted it like five times. So I wrote the review, and then when they were, like, telling me about the app, they, like, told me that they were changing their data retention policies. It's basically the same thing as Gmail. They're going to keep the stuff, and it could be subpoenaed, et cetera. So I was like, oh, I should write that, too. Wait, I'm busy.

Plus Russell is way smarter about this stuff than I am, so I let Russell write it. And so his story went up and Edward Snowden saw it and just went bonkers. And, you know, he's not wrong. So it's fine. Like, do you want an app to send little bits of text and stickers to somebody? Allo can do that. Do you... Finally.

Do you want an app where you can do Google searches without having to leave the app? Allo can do that too. But it's not like a full as full of conversational text bot as you might want. But it's, you know, fine. But do you want an app that you can use from more than just one single phone? Nope. Do you want an app you can use from the web or from your desktop? Nope. It's like, that's a problem for me. It's probably not a problem for the vast majority of humans on the planet. But the vast majority of humans on the planet have got a million other apps to choose from. So, yeah. And they're already using WhatsApp. Right. Google did a very good job

achieving a very small goal. Yeah. Hmm. To be clear, There is like an incognito mode or something. Yes. Right. But they call it incognito, which is hilarious. I don't know. That's like, it's like, it's like, they might as well call it like this is for sexting. But you, that encrypts it end to end.

It never gets stored on Google servers. And you can set the messages to auto destruct after they've been read by your recipient. And when you start an auto, if you like start an incognito chat instead of starting a regular chat, like the chat's still there so it doesn't go away. So it's like not that much more in. convenient. So you could just use incognito for everything and it would probably be fine, but it's not the default. And maybe you, you know, maybe you want the default. I don't know. The thing is you would switch to this because it has all these other features and I feel like

Ashley telling me that new features and IMessage haven't even like gone anywhere, even though they're already in the thing people are using is not a good sign. No, the only feature that would, that it's like actually unique and compelling is the Google Assistant. And, um, Uh, you know, like if I'm in a chat and I, I really, really want to, you know, look up how old, you know, Zach Galafinakis is right there in the middle of the chow without having to leave, then sweet. I have that option. Google wants you to think, like, you can find restaurants with it, and you can. But really, the, the highest, best use of the Google assistant is looking up Vikings Packers highlights to troll Nealabatat. I hate you. You're fired. What if, what if the end? I don't. I mean, I love you, Deter. You've been a good friend and couldn't have done this without you, but this is. This is where the right ends, man. I'm sorry.

It's all over. That sucks. He was a great guy. He was great. Paul, I hope you know what an executive editor does. I have literally no idea. That's all right. I could probably get a job throwing footballs for the Packers because who was doing.

Actually, that's true. How was your deep ball team? What if Google Assistant was like your buddy in I message or an app in I message? Yeah, I'm surprised that that hasn't happened. How would that feel? to you. Do you think if if if if one of your contacts was Google Assistant in your primary chat app of choice, would you talk to Google Assistant? Maybe like the problem is like the promise of a bot of like the Google Assistant is that it's a conversational search instead of a big empty white box or a voice that you hope

gets the answer right. But we don't know how to do that and Google doesn't know how to give it to us or teach us how to use it. And even if it did, it's not ready for that conversational thing at the depth that you want. Like when you type a search into Google and it gets it wrong or like it doesn't give you the thing on the first page, you just click to the second page. When you speak at Google or at Siri and it screws it up, you're like, oh, well, I don't need to use this anymore and move on with your life. But when you're in a chat and like you're talking to something and it gets it wrong, like in a chat, it's frustrating. Like if I were using iMessage or talking to you, Paul, and I said, something and you didn't know what the hell I was talking about, I would be annoyed at you and think

you were dumb. And that is too often how you feel when you're chatting with Google Assistant. Yeah, I was listening to a podcast about machine learning and it was really interesting that so many of these advances in search and in like image recognition and stuff has been based on machine learning. But it's most of the like current machine learning stuff is you train something. on a large data set. Yeah.

And then it operates going forward based on that training. And then you can do a new training later on. But as far as I know, there aren't many techniques in vogue that are being used by a lot of these companies that do continuous and like bespoke learning, if that makes sense. Right. Well, I always wonder, it's like, well, Siri must be getting this wrong a million times a day. So you'd think Siri would get better at this. but they don't get better at this very quickly.

And you would hope there's like a feedback thing and Google Allo and stuff. You'd hope they could get better at this. But I feel like right now machine learning isn't set up in such a way that it will rapidly adapt to how people talk to it. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, this is one of the reasons I think Google decided to keep your chat data on its servers rather than delete them so that they can train up the assistant. They say it's for these like smart chips. That's the other thing. Like when you get a message in Allo, instead of just typing out reply, it gives you like suggested replies that are ostensibly based on your voice.

And I can also like read the picture. So if I send you a picture of a dog, one of your little suggestion chips will be like, aw, a cute dog. But aren't they kind of, there's a way they can get into this. They can't do all that stuff. But the Google keyboard is an iOS. And not on Android. But not on Android. But they can just weave that in.

They can weave some assistance stuff. into the keyboard. I turned off Google keyboard. It was like broken like half the time. It's way better in iOS 10. Well, maybe I'll try it again. I don't know if it's the iOS keyboard stuff is improved or the Google set or both, but it, I will say make more typos in Google's keyboard than Apple's keyboard. Yeah, so do I. It's a weird thing, but it's useful. Anyway, Google Assistant rolling out in Allo, that's the first one. Yeah. But it seems like their event is actually the big kickoffer assistant with the new phone. Right. Google Home, all this other stuff. The pixel phones have leaked. Do you think they look amazing? No. Yeah. I think they're kind of

They look aggressively non-amazing. Yeah, but with like a weird glass thing on the back. Yeah. Well, and Google is kind of hyping. I mean, they don't typically hype their events like this. They're literally putting billboards and statues up. Yeah. With like hashtag made by Google. Yeah. Like they, I mean, that's a pretty big promoting for an event. This is not an advertisement for a product. Yeah, an outline of a phone. It's like, imagine this shape, but Google made it. Yeah.

Which is not that aspirational in some sense. It's like, imagine the thing that you totally expect a phone to be by now, but Google's making it. Like, that's not promising imagine a reimagined phone. It's literally the opposite. It's imagine exactly what you expect a phone to be, but from Google. Yeah. Yeah, but it's been so long since Google tried to sell Nexus phones and as anything other than like, hey, the nerds can go buy this on our website. They advertise the 6P and the 5X.

Oh, I mean, a little, but, like, they didn't go this big with them. Right. So, like, there's rumors. Like, there's rumors of the phone, but then there's also rumors of Google Home. There's some sketchier rumors of a 4K Chromecast. There's even sketchier rumors of, like, this could be an entire suite of products. that are all tied together with Assistant in some way. And that feels like worth Google saying the next version of Google is Assistant as expressed on all these devices.

But is that enough? Would you switch from an iPhone to get Google Assistant? No. I'm such a downer today. You're a real downer. You're supposed to bring the heat. I mean, I don't use Siri. I personally don't care about assistants.

That doesn't change my life for me. Like until they can literally deal with my 401K and tell me what's happening in there, I don't. care about the personal assistant. So Siri woke up every morning and was like, the market's up. If she was like, hey, let me go call people to figure out what's happening with your accounts. Like a real secretary. A real secretary. Like if Facebook's M is supposed to be. Right. Which is actually just, I am actually real secretary. Yeah. But I am down with a free secretary. Like, I want a free secretary. So until that can happen, I don't care about assistance at all. What's the last thing holding you to your iPhone though? Is it just my message? I message. And,

I like the design. Right. Well, the new phones look like an iPhone, so you'll like that design. Yeah, I didn't think they were that ugly. Dieter, what do you think they can do to, like, break out? I mean, that's the real question, right? What can they offer people that breaks away from Samsung? I mean, here's the thing.

The long story with Google is they can't make their own hard workers or piss off their partners. Most of their partners have collapsed in one way or another. Samsung is the last partner standing. They can't piss off Samsung. literally sold Motorola to bring Samsung back into line and use their software without screwing it up. Right? Like that was the explicit trade they made,

sold Motorola to Lenovo. It's not compete with Samsung. Samsung's got to behave themselves. But now, Samsung's phones are exploding. Well, I was going to say, yeah. Right, like, how much you have to worry about annoying Samsung when Samsung is tanking their own brand by literally having defective hardware that's hurting people?

Like, I think they have a big opportunity to, like, be like, you know what, we're just doing this on our end. How much of this, like, do you think is going to hang on, like, hey, we're Google, and we're going to hang on Daydream? Which we're also waiting for this year, right? Presumably these phones are going to be Daydream phones. If they're not, oh, my God. Yeah.

I mean, if they make a phone and they're like, here's Daydream, here's our VR experience, buy this phone, YouTube VR is now a thing. That's pretty cool. But all of the VR energy, as far as I can tell, is going into PSV. VR. It's going to high-end gaming experience at Oculus. By the way, Deeter's wife works for Oculus. There it is. There's your disclosure. But all that, and

at least as far as Paul, I mean, you're looking at me with like a quizzical look on your face. I just don't know what, you can't put any energy into daydream right now because there aren't any daydream devices. Right. And the developer kit of it is not at the similar

spec or standard of, like with Vive and with Oculus, there were developer kits that seemed germane to the eventual product that would be released so you could start working on stuff. There's tons of VR content, and if Google comes out with a good VR product, I'm guessing a lot of it will work on the phone. So I think Google could definitely outdo Gear VR, especially because they're supposed to come with, like, controllers of some sort, which would, I think is Gear VR's biggest problem. It's by making a controller optional, you make it so that hardly anybody has one. So you have to have like these controllerless experiences, basically, that can all be controlled from the touchpad on the gear VR.

So I think there's a lot of room for VR to be way better in mobile, which is basically make it more like the desktop VR. Yeah. Well, see, I mean, that could be the other thing they roll out. But I, but VR just doesn't sell things. I don't. No one's going to buy a phone just like. VR is a thing that's a beautiful future and something to be enthusiastic about. It's not something that competes with iPhone.

It's got to stop being about, it's got to start being a thing that you buy something for and not about being a beautiful future. Like, we've had that for four years now. Disclosure by workforce at Oculus, but man, I'm so tired of VR. VR is the new, it'll be cool next year, right? We make the joke about Bluetooth, like, it's got to stop being the thing that'll be cool someday. Yeah.

Well, then maybe I'm just ready to put a line in the same. I just does not feel like VR is a. a thing that moves millions of units. Right. So I think having it as an add-on to a platform that's moving millions of units is the thing that will accelerate it. The thing that makes it the thing that sells millions of units is retail availability, right?

It's selling it someplace other than store.com. And they've never, they haven't done that for the Nexus line since I don't know when. Yeah. I will say, though, if you're AT&T or your Verizon, and you are tied up and you've got two suppliers and Apple who kicks you around and Samsung

whose phones explode. His phones explode. You are probably very interested in saying, you know what, we've got the Google phone now. And like building hype for yet another product in your store that people might be interested in

versus just doing Apple's bidding and like concocting weird network management schemes that don't work. You're probably excited. Paul's feelings. Turning off Paul's access. I'm still sad about the modular phone.

Yeah, the R.A. Yeah. I wanted that. Everybody wanted that. Google wanted that. Dieter, you saw it, though, didn't you? I saw the most recent prototype. Yeah.

It was real. That's something to get hyped about. Yeah, except it's, you know, never coming. Well, yeah. I know. Now I know. Something like our is the exact reason why I have just no trust in Google making hardware. Yeah, they haven't been traditionally good at it.

The only hardware product Google has ever made that's been a success is the Chromecast. And a Chromecast is great. Yeah. I'm just going to once again say this. It is the simplest idea that Google has executed. It is so much better to stream things to a Chromecast than to use almost anything else that I have in my home. And you can buy it in a Costco. Yeah, yeah, and it's cheap.

But, like, I have the Sunday Ticket app, right, to watch... I don't know hers games. It's, like, emotionally devastating for me. They lost the Vikings. Anyway, and to watch the last game... It was the first game in the season. I tried to... There's an app for the Apple TV.

The Sunday ticket app for the Apple TV is so bad that it is not obvious how to make the video full screen. Do you know how you make the video full screen in the Apple TV? You pick up the physical remit... and hit the physical play button, which is also marked pause. Right. Yeah, that seems like a dangerous thing to do. It's like, what if I stopped the progression of this video that I'm hoping to continue? What about this thrilling live event?

What if I just hit pause to make it bigger? That is not how that should work. So we finally figured out, and it looks bad. I try it on the Xbox. The Xbox always mess just from the get-go with the NFL. And then I open the app on my iPad and stream into the Chromecast. perfect HD because all it's doing is pulling an authenticated stream. It's not trying to do anything else, which is all I want it to do. Because if I want to look at stats, I have a phone,

an iPad, and a computer. I don't need it to do all the other stuff. That's the only Google Hardware product that works well because it literally tries to do nothing. It's like, can you tell me where there's a video? I'll play that video. That's it. No other ideas. That's what the pixel phone should be. Well, I doubt the phone's going to try to do nothing. Damn it. All right. Well, that event's coming up. The leak's coming fast and furious.

But it's time for everyone's favorite recurring segment. Medium format in the moonlight. Come on. Okay, so on this segment, every week I talk about a hot new medium format camera that I'm really excited about. Every week. Every week. Fuji film made a super poor, I mean, it's not pocket. But for a medium format camera, which this basically is, made a very compact, lightweight, usable

camera body. And it has just the, just the biggest sensor in it. It's a sensor that's bigger than a 35 millimeter, like 1.7 times larger than a full frame, 35 millimeter sensor, which basically means is that you got more room for the pixels to get more light. And that's going to be wonderful. And I just, medium format shots, like, the photos that, like, you see in a museum or, like, awesome, like, portraits that you see in magazines that are, like, just, like, they just kind of make you do a double take. Like, there's just some really beautiful photos out there.

And you can take great photos with any camera. But I have, there's something about medium format photos that just really get to me sometimes. And it's exciting to see a compact. less than $10,000 is the quoted price camera that has just a huge 51.4 megapixel sensor. I'm into that. I'm buying one. And it's going to change everything. I just need $9,000.

Hang on. I'm going to read a few more ads. I'm also excited. This is not full frame. So sorry to work this into my media format in the moonlight segment that I do every week. The new, the GH5, successor to the highly popular GH4, which is like a micro four-thirds camera that did 4K. Yeah. And it's like, just does really good video.

And the GH5 will do 4K in 60 frames per second. There go. Which is very exciting at like a very low, like probably less than $1,000 for the body. So you know, I'm going to buy a camera. I love buying cameras. Yeah. What if all of your memories were in 4K, 6? 60 frames per second.

My God. Then you would know exactly how drunk I was. That's actually the thing. When you go back into my photos, you begin to realize that we... That you're an alcoholic. Yes. In my early 20s, we drank a lot. But we had these small cameras and they didn't work well in low light.

So we developed all these weird ways to compensate for the fact that we had the flash turned on. So we would like hold our hands in front of the flash and like bounce it. We would put beer bottles in front of the flash and, like, tint the frame. And all of that was so much fun. And now I just have this phone that's, like, pretty good at everything. Yeah. Where'd the magic go? Constraint leads to creativity, Paul.

Yeah. I don't know. I'm going to get a point-and-shoot camera. I'm going to buy a $100 cannon point-and-shoot camera and take a lot of really bad photos. Today's episode was also brought to you by Autodesk. Autodesk Graphic is the specific product that's sponsoring. today's show. It's not just the whole company, but Autodesk Graphic is a full-featured app for making icons, illustrations, UI, and U.S., or anything else you'd need out of a professional

vector design app. Don't go consumer when it comes to vectors. Go professional. It's available on your Mac, phone, and iPad, so you can design without compromise on the go. It's the vector design app you've been waiting for for your iPad Pro and Apple Pencil. Visit graphic.com to learn more about Autodesk graphic or find it in the app store. Anyway, that's the show this week. Thank you so much for listening. There's tons of other stuff to listen to. Control, Walt, delete with Walt.

We talked a lot about his WatchOS 3 review, which is why we left out of the show. You can listen to that. Chris Plant has What's Tech featuring Chris Plant. That's wonderful. That comes out, I believe, on Tuesdays. And I think they talked about the exploding batteries. They did.

What's Tech with Chris Plant, featuring Chris Plant, comes out on Tuesdays. They actually did a thing on Galaxy 10th's this week. And I'll run the recoup side, Lauren Good, who's on the show quite often has too embarrassed to ask. Kara Swisher has Recode decode and Peter Kafka has Recode Media, which is one of my very favorite shows. All kinds of stuff to listen to. Check it all out at iTunes.com slash verge. You can hit us up on Twitter.

Dieter's at Backlon. Paul's Future Paul. Ashley is Ashley R. Carmen. Wow. I'm so impressed with you. Thanks. Thank you for that mild praise. And I'm at Reckless.

Hey, Eli. Hey, hey. Yeah. I want to add one thing to our end to show rundown. You ready? Thanks to our producer, Andrew Marino, who is a hero for dealing with our garbage. Andrew is at Andrew Marino with a you. Yeah.

Yeah, Andrew. Andrew, edit the show, but don't edit the show. Have we never been thinking Andrew this whole time? I know. We're monsters. Andrew. Edit the set. All right.

That's it for this week. We're back next week. I feel like next week's going to be kind of fiery again. I'm into it. I'm ready. A bunch of verge editors. Oh, actually, there's some hype next week. Next week, Elon Musk, SpaceX, doing a huge press conference to talk about their plan to go to Mars. We're going to shut down the whole verge and run it as in-depth as we run an Apple event,

which makes me so excited that is a long-running dream to do science coverage, the way that we do tech coverage. So watch for Lauren Grosch and Liz take over the site. Liz is actually in town next week. Casey's in town next week. Thomas Ricker is in town next week. A bunch of our editors are in town. for a little Verge 2017 planning. So we'll try to, well, particularly try to have Liz and Lauren on the show to talk about

Elon Musk next week. So it's going to be crazy week next week. We're super into it. And we'll see you then. Rock and roll. Paul. Rock and roll? Paul.

I heard that the 1,000th person that retweets our live blog coverage gets a free trip to Mars. Is that true? Yes. Okay. But it's actually just a small town in Pennsylvania. Oh, no. Is there a Mars, Pennsylvania? It should be.

I'm looking at. No, I'm thinking of Hershey. I was thinking of the other candy cup. Come on. Mars is a borough in Pennsylvania. There you go. A borough. In Butler County.