The Vergecast - Solo Acts: Madison Karrh on her adventure puzzle game 'Birth'

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

On episode three of our Solo Acts miniseries, Ashley Esqueda chats with Madison Karrh, an indie game developer who launched her most recent game Birth a few weeks ago. Birth is an adventure puzzle game about constructing a creature from spare bones & organs found around the city in order to quell your loneliness. Madison explains the challenges of making an entire game on your own and why that path is so important to her. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for the show comes from Retool. Too many companies run critical operations on duct taped spreadsheets, Slack workflows, and whatever else they could cobble together. Not because they want to, but because building internal tools means weeks of waiting on someone else's backlog. That's where Retool comes in. Build custom internal tools just by describing what you need. Prompts something like,

Build Me a Revenue Dashboard on our Salesforce data. And Retool actually builds it on your company's data, in your cloud with enterprise security built in. Go to retool.com slash vergecast. We all need to retool how we build software. Welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of playing really good independent games on the Steam Deck.

It's my personal favorite. I'm your friend, Alex Kranz, and today we're going to have a new episode of our Soloax mini series, which features interviews from people who are working independently to create great things on the internet. And every Monday on the Vergecast,

our friend Ashley Iskeda, is curating and hosting these interviews and sharing with us what she's learned. And Ashley is here right now. Hello, Ashley. Hi. You've been working on a really cool episode. It sounds like all about video games, all about a video game. A video game.

Well, a video game developer. Okay. I love video games. And I love indie games. The joy, the thrill of discovering a cool indie game is just there's nothing else like it. And so I am talking today to soul. Golo game developer, Madison Carr. Well, why Madison?

I first met her last year at Summer Game Fest in June. I was immediately drawn to her game, which is called Birth. What's Birth about? Birth is a point-and-click adventure puzzle game. You've got to make a friend, basically, out of spare bones and organs you find around this very strange city. Because you're lonely. It's a game about loneliness. Okay.

And it's all hand-drawn. Madison draws everything. She draws everything herself. She does everything herself. And it has this very kind of organic, dreamlike quality to it. And to me, it's just so creepy and so beautiful. Like it's a Frankenstein's monster thing, but in a good way. Well, I personally am very much looking forward to hearing more of your conversation with Madison. Hi, Madison. Thank you for coming on the show. Hi, Ashley. Thank you so much for having me. I've given a very broad description of birth. But Madison, And do you mind explaining to the listeners in a little more detail what kind of game birth is? Sure. Yes. Birth is a puzzle game about living alone in a large city. It was inspired by my move to Chicago at the very beginning of the pandemic and living alone in a tiny studio apartment.

And in order to quell your loneliness in birth, you have decided to construct a creature from spare bones and organs that you find while traversing the new city that you've moved to. I am very curious about your journey as a solo game developer because it's a very interesting path that many people like to think that they could attempt or that they are interested in attempting. And I want to hear a little bit about how that got started for you. So when did you start making games and why did you start making games? I got into games via playing the Rusty Light games and realizing that I think seeing something that's just art that you're clicking around on. that felt very accessible and I just had a very strong desire to try to make something similar. I'm a programmer by trade. And so that part came easy, learning the C-sharp.

It's the art that I did not have a ton of experience in. And so I just made it my New Year's resolution one year to draw every day and try to get better. My first game is very rough in terms of I definitely was learning as I made stuff. And there's a beauty in not knowing how little you know. Therefore, you're okay with releasing something. So my first game that I ever made definitely just came from blissful ignorance of thinking that something was better than it was, I think, and not being embarrassed to show off what you made.

Yeah. So that was in 2018 that I started maybe late, 2017. And I was working a full-time job at a financial software, which was very boring. And so it was a lot of early mornings. and late nights. And I think it was just really the obsession of starting making something and seeing something on the screen that wasn't there before and you made it. And that was just a very addictive thing, I think. And that like kept me coming back every day, every morning wanting to work on it. And so that was through 2020, early 2020, I got funding from Wings and then was able to quit my

full-time job. And so now I work on my step full-time, which is amazing. Yeah, this is, you're a full-time solo game developer. This is your day job now. You made it your day job, which is the, that's the dream, right? You're living the dream. Absolutely. It feels like a dream for sure. So to be clear to everybody, you mentioned the art, your programmer by trade. Everything in this game is made by you. Yes. Yes, that is true. So what tools, you mentioned C-sharp, what other tools do you use? What are your preferred tools of your trade? Yes. So I use Unity as a game engine, program in C-sharp, and then I use Clip Studio, Clip Studio Paint for drawing, and that's only because I bought a Waycom tablet, and it came with a subscription to Clip Studio, and it's just what I learned

on, and I'm afraid of change. So I haven't switched yet, but I've looked into Procreate a little bit because it seems really fun. And then just notebooks in terms of idea, making sure that I have something to write down. Sketching things out. How long did it take you to make birth from start to finish? birth took 18 months, I think, a year and a half. And that was the longest I'd worked on something. And that I think most of that time was a surprise just because I ended up pushing the release date. It was supposed to come out a few months ago. But doing the events, going to Summer Games Fest where we met. And then Gamescom and other events throughout the year, that takes a lot. It takes a lot of time to do the PR part of making a game. So there's the making the game, which is fun because you get to sit at your desk, you get to be quiet. And then there's the PR. and like showing people the game and hoping that they like it. Now, is that something that required you to step out of your comfort zone? Are you more of an introvert? Do you, were you excited to get out there and really, I mean, obviously you want to show off the thing you made?

Yeah, I definitely fall towards the more introverted side of the spectrum. I think that's the only way that you can make a game on your own is if you're comfortable living a lot of your life by yourself, if you're comfortable sitting your desk in silence, which I think could be said for a lot of creative crafts. There's two parts. there's going out and talking and being social and that can be draining as an introvert. There's also the fact that birth is so extremely personal and close to me that it feels a little embarrassing to talk about in that way. And I am so thankful that so many people resonated with the premise of birth of living alone in a tiny studio, especially after the pandemic.

Not that I want anyone to feel lonely. And I would love for everyone to have their person. But yeah, I think that part was a little weird to talk about just because it was. was basically like me being like, hi, I was so lonely that I had to make a game about it, which is like, wow, you really care about it. You really, really care. You really were lonely. So I think that's part of it too is the vulnerability of saying like, hi, I put my whole heart into this and I hope that's enough. I hope that's enough for you. Also really just like a very humbling experience to having people play it and give you compliments about it and tell you that it resonates with you is just like, I don't know. It just made me feel like my heart was going to explode the

whole time. I would imagine there is something cathartic or validating about hearing the interpretation of the gameplay from people who did not build it and did not have that very close connection because the idea of loneliness is very universal, right? Or the feeling of not having those resources, those friendship circles. And everybody, collectively, it's very interesting that you were working on this game and then the pandemic hit. And it's very much a reflection of everybody got that experience, really, to some extent. And so it's interesting that there is that shared loneliness. There's an understanding there that maybe I don't know was there before for a lot of people.

Absolutely. I do think birth is coming out at a good time in terms of, of course, there's never a good time for everyone to be spending so much time in their apartments. But I do think that that did form a more universal or a greater percentage of humans that had had experience with that. Where before I don't know, it was a lot easier to mask loneliness and a lot easier to go out and spend time with people in order to cover that up. So I think you're right that I think the pandemic made it a little bit more relevant. Yeah, I would argue a lot more relevant. So much more relevant.

So walk me through what it is like on a typical day for you as a solo game dove. Do you impose crunch on yourself? Like, what is your process? Yeah, it's kind of weird because crunch seems so negative when someone's working on someone else's game, when someone's making a game for a different studio. But when you're working on your own thing, it feels more like an obsession. And there's more of a, I don't know, romanticized vision of it, I guess. I don't think crunch should ever be romanticized. But I am just so obsessed with making things that I do spend, I would say majority of my weekdays are spent sitting at my desk and it does not feel like work. So my typical schedule is I wake up between six to eight, depending on how I'm feeling, I guess.

And how late you were coding the night before. Yeah. Make coffee sit down at my desk. And for the most part, when you're working on your own, I think there's this beauty of being able to come up with an idea and then implement it then in that moment. And so there's like a lot of each day feels like there's this chance for amazing things to happen because you don't have to have permission from someone else. There's no red tape in terms of like getting someone's opinion or getting someone's. someone's approval to put something in the game. And so a lot of times I'm thinking of things that day and can implement them within like hours. And so it typically depends. But usually I am drawing and

programming in the same day. The way that I work is, I know that there's advice that you should prototype an ugly version of your game first to know if the gameplay is fun. But I struggle with having ugly things on my screen. And so I typically draw final art from the start. I will draw like a very rough draft. And then for the most part, it is like final art. So, So that is just the most joyful way for me to work, I think, is if I can make something that looks really good the first time and be able to see. So that way, when I set up the physics or the programming for that object, it feels finished in that moment.

Any day that I have to do audio, any day that I have to record, any amount of music is not, those are not my best days, but usually I chunk those into like, okay, these will be my audio days and then I will be done with it for the time. So usually programming and art are my happy spaces. And those are the two that I work on every day. I would imagine having close to final art as you're working is very motivating to be able to keep going. It's sort of like the, it's the carrot that keeps you kind of moving forward. Yes, absolutely. I agree with you.

Okay, we're going to take a break, but when we come back, we'll talk about the logistics of making your way as a solo game developer. Support for this show comes from Shopify. Every thriving, successful business has to start somewhere. A good place to start is a relatively simple question. What if, given the right tools, I've really put my all into this. One tool that can help grow your sprouting business to new heights is Shopify. Millions of businesses around the world rely on Shopify for e-commerce. They offer a host of helpful tools you can take advantage of,

from payment processing to analytics to website design. Their design studio includes hundreds of templates to help you create the exact website you've been envisioning for your business. If you're wondering, what if I need help, then no worries, because you're never left to fend for yourself. Shopify's award-winning customer support

is available 24-7. It's time to turn those what-ifs into a thriving business with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash vergecast. Go to Shopify.com slash vergecast. That's Shopify. com slash vergecast.

Okay, we're back and I have Alex Kranz with me. I have to butt in because I have one question, how the money happen? The eternal question. The eternal question. Well, Madison has a publisher. As an indie game developer, she is given an advance, much like a book deal. She's given an advance to make a game that she either has a working prototype of or if she has a working relationship with a publisher or any other solo game.

developer has a working relationship. A lot of times there's an understanding that she's making her next project. This is kind of the top line idea. Go forth, make game. And then once that advance is set in stone, it's doled out in pieces as the project meets milestones. So you can't just wallow in concept art land for 10 years. You got to ship something. Well, you got to just show some progress, right? It's like you got to show them something. And then when the game comes out, publisher usually sets the pricing, and then the publisher usually wants to recoup that advance. They want to get back some of that money or all of it. And that amount of percentage when the game launches depends on the agreement between

the game developer and the publisher. So it could be 100% of an advance has to be recouped before the developer makes anything, or it could be a percentage, a split in there. And then the developer keeps the IP. It doesn't ever belong to the publisher. So that's nice. And then there's a publishing agreement. So there's a set period of time where the publisher is collecting on profits. Okay. So given kind of the economics of it in a lot of those challenges, why does Madison go down this route rather than going towards a more stable kind of consistently lucrative thing like as a AAA game developer? That is a great question and one she answered. So let's take a listen.

So I think there obviously is a lot of safety in having a corporate job. And making the decision to quit my job in 2021 was very scary. And it was not like something that that was easy at all. And I feel like for the first few months, I was just terrified all the time of like, have I made a terrible financial decision? Because then you're also in charge of taxes. There's a lot more than just like, how big can the number be. You know, what is the number I need per month? I had no idea how hard it was going to be to do your taxes when you are not having a W-2. Yes, it is hard. It's terrible. It's terrible. And then health insurance, you have to figure that out. There's a lot more than just choosing salary, you know, based on on that number. And also just from a mental health perspective of having that safety net. But I think in terms of,

and not to be so extremely philosophical, but the way that I will measure my life at the end of it is how well did I love my partner and how many works have I. Have I. I created that I'm proud of. And working at a studio, making someone else's games, obviously, that's a much easier and safer feeling life to have. But there's a direct limitation on how many of your own things you get to make. So it's definitely scarier to be on your own. But I think it's worth it if you have that obsession with your own creative work and getting better. But I definitely see how people could want to just stay at a job because it's safe and that's good. And my best friend, she will work corporate forever and she lives a very nice, a nice, safe, easy life and I'm happy

for her, but that is just not what I want. It's hard to live a creative life, I think. So birth is a game about loneliness and a pandemic happened in the middle of it. And one of the biggest parts of the indie game dev community is those connections between other indie game devs. And obviously, you know, conventions and other networking opportunities were not available. for a big chunk of births development. How did you personally pivot during the pandemic? And did you find that your choices were different or the same as the rest of the game dev community?

Were there still, you know, masked up outdoor game jams going on? Like, what did you find happened in the community at large? And then what was your individual response to the pandemic? Yeah. So I think mine might be a little bit different because I feel like my first two games were so small and I did not go to any shows. So birth is the first game that I'm showing and taking out into the world.

And so to me, it felt like as the pandemic was, as restrictions were being lifted, it was like right when I was like ready to show birth. And so Summer Games Fest, that was like a lot of the, a lot of people's first events back after the pandemic. And that was my first time ever showing a game ever. And it just so happened to be birth. And luckily it was like really good timing. And so for me, it almost felt like the pandemic.

kind of maybe I would have shown my second game somewhere, but I'm kind of glad that I didn't because I'm like very happy that birth was my first one that is kind of getting any amount of recognition just because of I think as creators, we are most proud of our latest work. And you can look at something you made a year ago and think, oh, no, that's terrible. I would have done so many things differently if I was making it now. So for me, there wasn't a huge difference. I did love coming into showcases. That is a brand new thing for me. So that was like very, very, very fun and I'm glad that it lined up with everyone's excitement to kind of get back into things. So I do think we are moving more towards having more online stuff. I hope that's something

that happens throughout, you know, even as restrictions get lifted. I do hope that that stays because I think that's a very accessible way for humans to be involved in things when they can't afford to go to shows because they're expensive and... Or physically can't. Yes, right. The indie game space, it has never been harder to discover certain indie games. Like discoverability because of the proliferation, just the absolute mountain of games that are available on many different platforms and storefronts. It makes it hard for any indie game developer, whether you're a solo game developer or studio to be discovered. Hopefully, products like the Steam Deck seem to be helping. I am really curious about how you have

seen discoverability within the space change since you started game dev. Yeah. So I think that when I started, I also didn't realize how small the industry felt. And so it feels really big from the outside, but it seems like there's so many tie-ins between most of the bigger games for sure. I think your point about the Steam Deck helping discoverability is really important because porting is hard. And so you don't get to see a lot of those niche indie games on console.

that maybe do have a little bit more curation. And so I'm glad that people are able to play weird, unfinished things on Steam on their couch now. That is like, I think the barrier to, at least for me, to playing a lot more Steam games is that I don't want to sit at my desk after I've been sitting at my desk for so long. And so having a Steam deck has helped me play a lot more, just like smaller, smaller games. I do think you're right, though, that especially with Steam, and I know this has been discussed a lot, but there's so many games that come out on Steam. And I know that I've missed so many games that I would love to play. I know I'm missing out. And I know it's, I think about when I started, I didn't know how to tell people about my thing.

And I would just put it on Steam and not, I didn't have a Twitter. I wouldn't tweet about it. I would just put it on Steam and hope that people found it. And that's just, it just doesn't work like that. And I didn't know at the time, of course, I was ignorant. And so I do think there's a lot more, I'm seeing a lot more smaller showcases pop up, which is nice. I think Day of the Devs is a great one. and that's not a small showcase by any means, of course.

But I'm seeing a lot more indie is the, I guess the word you would use for it. It's almost like indie showcases, independently run showcases. Yeah, so I think just hopefully you're finding things from your community, but you definitely can't just, there's just so much chance involved with putting something on Steam and hoping that someone finds it. So I think it's really just about like following curators that you like that hopefully will hype up other indie's, but it really takes people caring about indie. in the indie space to make sure that as many of them get the attention that they deserve.

But there's no way that they can. You know, there's so many people creating things. And as indie development gets more accessible, which is amazing. And we're getting way more diverse stories than we've ever had. There's not enough people that can afford to talk about them and write about them. All right. Let's take one more break. Then I'll be back with Alex Cranz and more of my interview with Madison.

Support for the show comes from Upwork. The days of doing it all, all by yourself, are over. There's no romance and burning out while you're trying to scale. Instead, you can check out Upwork. Upwork helps grow your business by giving you fast access to specialized talent across more than 125 categories, so you can fill skill gaps, launch projects faster, and scale without committing to full-time headcount. And finding the right talent is easy. You can browse profiles, review past work, and get help scoping the role so you can get started quickly.

Seriously, you could connect with the right freelancer in just a few hours, especially when you sign up with Business Plus. Their AI powered shortlisting pairs you with the top 1% of talent in under six hours. No endless searcher required. You can visit upwork.com right now to post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's UPWRK.com. Upwork.com. Okay, we're back. Alex is here too. Hi, Alex.

Okay, Ashley, so typically on this last act of the solo acts podcast, we get a little nerdy. We get pretty in depth. Where are you taking us in this last act? The only place we can go, which is the future. I love it. The future specifically of the solo game dev space. I think 15 years ago you could make a moderately successful breakout hit as a solo or a really small game dev. Right. And now, you know, if you do that, the opportunity to parlay it into a mid to senior level role at a mid-sized studio is not as prevalent as it used to be because all of these mid-sized studios have been snapped up by first-party developers. We've seen Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo. I mean, they're all just, there's buying up studios. They're hoovering them like Kirby.

And I wanted to know what Madison's thoughts were on the current and future. landscape of small and indie game development because it's a weird place to be right now. And I was dying to get that first person perspective from her. So I've seen the, I'm not sure exactly who had posted this, maybe Rami, Esmail, about the amount of money that it takes to acquire a midsize studio or a larger studio and how that could fund so many indies. You know, so many indies just need $60,000 or $70,000 to make their game. And, you know, there's billions going around. And I think that speaks to how much money there is just in gaming in general. In terms of where it's going, what I would love to see is more people.

And, you know, hopefully this is just the world in general that more task, more general task are automated. Therefore, more humans have more time for enjoyment. You know, hopefully the general population's amount of free time goes up. And with that comes more time to enjoy games and also more time to make games. And so hopefully as our world becomes more automated, we have more time. and more games that are getting made. But I don't have a good prediction on what's going to happen to Indies.

I hope that self-publishing stays as accessible as it is and that there's enough people that care about indie games. I've been shocked at how many people just care about Indies since becoming one. People really care and people want Indies to exist. I want Indies to exist. And so hopefully there's enough people, you know what I like to think about Indies doing well, so solo developer is doing well and feeding back into another solo developer doing well. So hopefully there's like enough indie devs wanting other indies to survive that we all find

funding somehow, but that is hard to, hard to imagine happening. But that's what I hope. That's my hopeful prediction. I want to hook back to something you mentioned, which is automation. And we've seen so much in the news about chat GBT and Open AI and all of these other artificial intelligence apps and, you know, platforms. How do you? think automation might help you as a solo game developer specifically? If it could automate any amount of the admin task that I have to do, the biz dev stuff brings me no joy. Other than that, I do think I value the human aspect of work. And I know that is a big argument for or against AI art. And I value that in my work just because I love,

for the most part, everything I get to do, everything that goes into making a game. I love that part. Maybe localization. Maybe if it could if it could localize into every single language for me, that would be amazing. That's a good one. I have a lot of localization, but that does seem at least a good starting point, right? And then you can spend maybe a little less having a translator refine a translation as opposed to doing it from scratch, right? Absolutely. You mentioned your sort of again, not to be macabre, but we are talking about birth here. You did mention you're like, the end of my life, these are the things that I will feel good about. Yes.

How do you measure success when you launch an indie game? Because obviously, it is a very different metric. So when you launch birth, births out, how do you measure the success of this game? Yeah, I think if we were in it for money, we would be in a, there are way more efficient ways to make money for sure. You'd be programming for a hedge fund or something. Yes, absolutely, right. I would be having a much more boring life for sure.

Obviously, numbers matter because numbers indicate whether you can make the next game. or not, or what you need to be asking for from funding or a publisher next time. So numbers do matter a little bit. Those numbers are important, the same way wish list numbers are important before you launch, even if there's no guarantee. But for me, I think what has brought me joy and what makes me feel like I did the job that I set out to do is watching people play it, specifically I love watching streams of it and seeing small interactions because it's taken so many thousands of hours to make birth. And so if someone has a really good time for two hours of their life, I have to make up those thousands of hours that I spent. So I need so many people to play it and know that you're

improving someone's life at least a tiny, tiny bit for it to be worth it. And so positive reviews help, but I really think it's seeing someone play through it and enjoy it. And other people can like vocalize what it makes them feel. And you in return are learning more about yourself or what you've created through that. Yeah, so I think it's how much joy it brings other people that sounds really cliche and naive almost. But as long as the numbers are good and as long as it's not a flop, yeah, it is important how much joy it brings people. And my last question is, what is your best advice for anybody who feels like they have a great game in them? Like, what is your best advice there? Make it. Start making stuff. It will be so bad at first, everything that I make. Everything that I

made at the beginning was so bad. And still things that I make sometimes, I'm like, oh, my God, that's atrocious that I made that. And I feel like I'm, I'm getting better every day at things. And so you just have to start. The scariest part is having total creative freedom and having no restraints whatsoever and having a blank canvas. That is really scary. What is not so scary is having a little bit of something on a canvas that you're editing a little bit. So yeah, start now. You'll wish that I, I wish that I started way earlier. I wish I had found game dev when I was like four or something. I don't know. My son's about. to turn four, so I'm going to get it started. Oh, my gosh, you should. This year.

Yes. I'm starting immediately. A new indie game dev. Just a new one right now. Yes. Okay, that is it for the Vergecast. Thank you so much, Ashley. Oh, it's my pleasure. I've been having so much fun on this series with you. And we've got even more episodes of the solo act series coming. This was episode three. We have two more. So you've got to tune in next Monday to hear even more about it. Ashley, what's going on next week, though? I have heard that mechanical keyboards are very popular. Oh, my God, are they? I'm shocked. I received a telegram. And I've heard that the technology community loves mechanical keyboards.

So I decided to talk to Tiny makes things. Tiny is a mechanical keyboard custom keycap creator. Yes. Yeah, she makes custom keycaps. Like the cute little ones that always look like food or like little characters and stuff. Yes, and she also even makes accessories for them. So talk to her, and she is a very interesting person with a lot of really cool things to talk about in the mechanical keyboard space. I think if you are a longtime enthusiast of mechanical keyboards, you will enjoy it.

But also, if you're new to mechanical keyboards or just thinking about it, you may find her talk interesting. All right. Well, Virchcast listeners, please stay tuned. That's going to be next Monday. But this is all we've got for the show today. The show is produced by Andrew Marino and Liam James. Brooke Mentors is our editorial director of audio. The Vergecast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

If you've got thoughts or feelings or feedback, you can always email us at vergecast at theverge.com or you can call the hotline at 866 Verge 11. We're going to be back on Wednesday for another episode. And then Nilai and I are going to be back on Friday. It's going to be a lot of fun. Until then, stay classy.