The Vergecast - Solo Acts: Marco Arment and his podcast app Overcast

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

For the final episode of our Solo Acts mini series, Ashley Esqueda talks with Marco Arment about being a solo app developer, going from Tumblr to Instapaper to his own podcast app Overcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm your friend Alex Cranz. And today we have a new episode of our Solo Axe miniseries, which features interviews from people who are working independently to create great things on the internet. Every Monday on the Vergecast, our friend Ashley Iskeda has been curating and hosting these interviews. And this is the final one. Oh, no, I'm very bummed.

This is the last one, but also very excited. So sad, but also, yes, very excited. Very excited. You saved some really cool stuff for this one, right? Yes. My final interview for the Solo Axe miniseries is a friend of the verge, the one and only Marco Armit. All right.

So Marco makes, he makes his own, like, podcasting app. He does. He makes Overcast. And so he's responsible for apps, listeners have almost certainly heard of. So Overcast and also InstaPaper, which I know is a very popular app, one of those kind of like top five read later apps, right? But what they may not be aware of is that those apps were created by a single person and that person is Marco. So Instapaper is no longer a solo developer effort. It has changed hands a few times over the years. But Overcast is still,

in fact, being developed for and managed by Marco by himself. So, It was really, really cool to hear him talk about his journey to solo app development and what kinds of freedoms and limitations he has while he walks that path and how he feels app development has really changed over the years. So I really hope you enjoy my chat with him. I am so excited to listen to this chat. I can't wait to get to it. Let's do it. Marco, thank you for being here today. Thank you so much.

It's a pleasure to be here. Okay. We got to start at the beginning. Why tech? Why become a developer? Who did this to you? I feel like I kind of had, you know, no other choice. I've always been a huge nerd ever since I got my first computer in middle school.

And I wasn't very good at the rest of my schoolwork. So here we are. I kind of, you know, fell into this as a job. And thank goodness for that because I was not a very good student or worker in other areas. But I just kind of always wanted to do this. It's always come very naturally to me. I love it. I love the world of tech.

I love programming. I love being a tech enthusiast of all the cool gear and computers that we get to play with and use. And audio gear, too, has always been a thing of mine. So it all kind of came together over the years. And here we are. We're just about the same age. I think we're like a year apart from each other. So you are part of, as I like to refer to it, because I think it's my favorite name.

You're part of the Oregon Trail generation. Yep. And I'm sure you played much Oregon Trail in the late 80s and early 90s at school. I feel like most of the kind of millennial, older millennials that I know are like very in like very kind of locked into tech specifically because of that. It almost feels and and but also there's a skepticism there because we remember the days before we were connected to the internet at every second of the day. Oh, sure. And you know, I think tech for a lot of us was a was a was kind of, you know, a peaceful break from the world. Because if, you know, to be an enthusiast, to be a nerd about anything in the. 90s was really uncool. So uncool. Especially to be a techner. Now it's much more mainstream. Thank goodness for that. But back then it was like, you know, in mass culture, it was not cool to love anything and to especially be good at anything or to, you know, to be smart at anything. And so tech was where we would retreat to from the hostile world that didn't like us very much. And so we

guard this jealously. Like we are so into our world of tech, or at least the world that we used to have of tech that we're trying to keep going in the modern world. But it meant a lot to us back then. And I think those feelings continue to the present day because this was what kept our minds safe and sane during that time when it was pretty hard to be a nerd. So, okay, fast forward to launching Tumblr. So you build and launch Tumblr with David Carp. It becomes really successful. But you decide even when user growth is continuing to go up in 2010, you pull a sign field. I'm going to call it a pull a signfield. You leave it. while it's like kind of moving. It's at the top. Then you leave while the app's still hot to launch

InstaPaper. So what was the reason to leave at that point, especially because the app was still growing? It was really more about where the company was in its growth and what it needed from my role. And it was, you know, David and I kept the company very small for very long, probably too long in retrospect. I think even he would agree with that, where it was he and I were the only programmers for the first few years. And then eventually we brought it out. But it was a very small team for a while longer than it would have been in most cases back then. And that was mainly just because we, you know, we were control freak to some degree. And we didn't really want to at any point take a break to have to go hire people. That's a complicated and difficult and time-consuming process. And so we kind of

never had the time. And so the company kind of grew all of a sudden. And because we had restricted it for so long. And as the company was about to explode in, in growth of, you know, employees and complexity and time and usage, we, we both realized, like, you know, what my specialty is here is being, like, the one back-end programmer who, like, owns everything. You know, like, think Gilfoyle from Silicon Valley. Like, that was kind of like, you know, my area of expertise there. And Tumblr was about to need that role to become much more of a people manager. And that's not in my skill set, nor do I really want it to, like, it's not something I would enjoy or be good at. And so we both realized like, you know, if I had something else to do, this is a good time to go do it.

And coincidentally, I did have something else to do because that whole time on the side, like the App Store and the iPhone were really ramping up. This was, you know. Right. A couple years after the App Store started, right? Because it was iPhone 2007 and then App Store a year later. And then, you know, this is like a couple years into the birth of the iPhone and the App Store. So this is like a very exciting time for Solo app development. Exactly. And I was in that world from day one with Instapaper, which was, you know, it started out

just this little side web project with this horrible web interface that I had made, you know, in the evening one day. But I was there on day one with Instapaper, and it was just something I was just doing on the side. And it was really taking off, but I still had my day job at Tumblr. And at Tumblr, I wasn't involved with the iOS app at all. I was doing all the server backend stuff. And meanwhile, I'm falling in love with iOS app development during this time. Like, it's taken off like crazy 2008 to 2010 and I'm I and I had this great app going on the side and so as the tumbler role changed to the point where I was going to have to either become a boss or start putting some more bosses above me. David and I realized you know what let's let's part ways here everything's cool you know

we're on good terms nothing's gone bad like this is a good time to bring in somebody else to this role and I'm going to go do the app thing because that's kind of where where my heart was going anyway and so I went off on my own to take insta paper which was already it was already established I would never have had the guts to do it if it wasn't. But I took it on my own and I've been independent ever since. That was late 2010 and I'm now pretty much unemployable by anybody, both because I wouldn't tolerate anyone else's crap and also because I'm probably at this point too old for any startup to want to hire me. We're going to take a quick break and then come back and talk about the launch of Overcast. Support for this show comes from Shopify. Starting something new isn't just

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into with Shopify today. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash vergecast. You can go to shopify.com slash vergecast. That's shopify.com. com slash vergecast. Okay, we're back and I have Alex Kranzen. Okay, so I got to ask, it's the summer of 2014. Marco is about to launch Overcast. I kind of know what podcasting was like because I was making my own really terrible one then. And I thought that was going to be the peak of podcasting, but it wasn't, right?

It is actually kind of amazing how prescient Marco's launch of Overcast is because he launches Overcast officially in July. of 2014. Yeah. And there were already some very popular podcasts happening at this point. So there was the Ricky Jervais show and the Adam Carolla show and comedy bang bang. But there was one in particular that was about to crack the entire podcasting industry wide open. Alex, what podcast do you think that is? I'm going to give you a guess.

It was totally my podcast that hasn't been on the air since 2014, right? No, it wasn't. It wasn't. You did it. It was cereal. Yes. Serial hit podcast. in October of the same year. So really, really amazing timing on Marco's part. I don't know if he's got a crystal ball or some sort of psychic that he refers to or ask questions about launching his apps. So that was a really good time to launch a podcast app. How was he this question?

You are in luck because I asked him exactly that. I said, why choose a podcasting app in particular to develop? So let's dive back in with Marco. Honestly, I didn't think I was doing much disruption doing the podcast app. You know, I didn't think this was an area that was going to have massive growth the way it did. It seemed like this nerdy, you know, passion project that I was going to do as a labor of love that would maybe make some money, maybe. But I wasn't sure if it would have a lot of a lot of legs to it long term. I did it because I was super into podcasts at that time and still am and was even for a long time before that. And I just wasn't very happy with podcast apps that I was using up to that point. And the world of podcasts are still fairly young.

You know, it had only been a couple of years since Apple had allowed them at all. Right. There was a weird brief time in the early App Store days where Apple wouldn't allow apps that, quote, duplicated existing functionality. So any functionality that was provided by built-in Apple apps, you were kind of sort of sometimes not allowed to make apps that did the same thing. Right. They fortunately quickly realized that was a stupid policy.

And also, I mean, that podcast app was, let's all be honest, it wasn't great. That initial one was. Well, at first, it was just like a tab in the iPod app. Like, we would just play music from this app that was the iPod app on the phone. And so anyway, so I wasn't happy with the apps that were out there. And because I'm a nerd and I like podcast a lot, I was like, you know, I think I'm going to make my own. Overcast itself, you've been doing this for almost 10 years or pretty close to 10 years at this point. So working on Overcast and you're still doing this solo. How do you. do you compete with the giants of the podcasting app world? I mean, how do you, how do you set yourself apart as an app? I think that that value has changed over time. When Overcast first came out, the competitive landscape was, you know, the big Apple podcast app that everyone used and that was okay. And then you had all these other like power user apps that were very nerdy. They were very complicated. You had like these walls of settings and everything and they usually, you know, we're not super

attractive either, if I'm honest. And, you know, it was, it was a very kind of, you know, very nerdy power user world that was not very accessible. And so I wanted to have a really good balance of like, I want to offer powerful features and customization, but not in such a way that causes me to have pages and pages of settings and, you know, all these confusing, hacky, ugly UIs and stuff like that. And so that was part of my appeal back then. And then over time, it has shifted, you know, as the world has gotten bigger in podcasting, we've had a lot more entrance into the world by, you know, larger entities, by Spotify being a big one, of course. And Apple has, of course, moved along since then.

But as those entities have come into the market, they have goals that are different from the goals that I have and that are not always aligned with the goals of the customer or the listener. You know, like many of these apps, they'll have various, you know, they'll want you to upsell to something or they'll want to use their recommendation engine to, like, force some content on you. And it's same thing with like streaming apps on TV where they know, like, if they bury the thing you want to see below the fold,

then you'll have to go through the top stuff first. They can promote more stuff to you. And all of that is a little bit customer hostile. And so Overcast is designed kind of to satisfy, you know, two main themes. Number one is like, I am not doing things in the app to benefit myself over my customers. You know, the app serves the customers. It serves what you want because what you want is what I want because I'm a podcast listener. And number two is that I am a podcast listener.

That's a big thing here because if you look at, for instance, listening to podcasts, in Spotify or some of the other big apps that have launched in the last few years. It's not clear to me if these were, if these are used by podcast listeners, if they're designed by podcast listeners, it seems like they're designed by people who learned the podcast existed six months earlier and just wanted to take as much money out of the market as they could. Yeah. And they don't seem like they are designed by podcast lovers. It seems designed by data is what I like to call a lot of stuff where it's like, oh, this is

designed by some analytics that a team did. and we think this is what people want, even though none of us are those types of people, like we can look at the data and decide, like, what we think they want. And a lot of times it's not quite, it kind of misses the mark. Exactly. And it also, it seems like a lot of these new apps and new designs are coming in from the point of view of somebody who just is getting into podcasts

without trying to understand the market first. They're getting into the market as an opportunistic move, not as like, hey, maybe I actually love podcasts and want to, you know, listen to them myself. There's been a lot of that there are podcasting history of, you know, people will hear that there's something going on over there and they won't like or listen to podcast themselves, but they'll want to somehow get a piece of that. And that usually does not land very well with people like us who actually love the medium and have been here for long enough to know what makes it good and what we're looking for here. And so that's what,

you know, I think what sets overcast apart today is it is designed by a podcast lover for podcast lovers and it puts your needs above any kind of weird data analytics tracking promotional algorithm kind of stuff. I am really curious about what you've learned as a solo app developer that may have surprised you. I think what has been the biggest surprise is the increased politicalization, if that's a word of the podcasting world and the media landscape as a whole. This is something that, you know, again, when I was getting into this world, it was very nerdy still. It was, it was mostly, you know, the handful of nerd enthusiasts who were there in the early days, like pre-serial, pre-Joe Rogan. You know, it was a very different world back then. And that world is

still there. Thank goodness. That's my favorite part of it. But it's now a much larger world that encompasses way more people, way more kinds of people from different walks of life and different backgrounds and different cultures and everything else. And so we've had to contend with issues in podcasting that I didn't expect that we would have to. So for instance, one of the very first big issues I had to deal with was there was a large conservative podcast that eventually became so so off the deep end in terms of like it was spouting, you know, some dangerous untrue rhetoric that was causing real harm. And eventually like the platforms all blocked it and or delisted it rather from their promotional directories. And I was getting all sorts of pressure to do the same thing in

Overcast. And the way I had built things from the beginning was I just look at Apple's directory, because they maintain it. They have human editors to check to make sure there's not like a bunch of spam or, you know, illegal content going in there. And of course, like being one person as the entire company and app developer, I can't have a staff of people who speak all the languages of the world and can review all these submissions and deal with, you know, certain disputes and everything like that. So I have to rely on them for that. And there was this, there was an incident a few years ago where Apple didn't delist this podcast for a few days after the crowd, you know, the crowd, kind of brought it to our attention and was demanding its delisting. And so I jumped the gun and

I delisted it first because I was like, you know what? I don't want, I don't want my platform to be causing harm. This is the last thing I want to be promoting in my search listings and stuff like that. And so I created and then used a flag that said, you know what, even though this podcast exists in Apple podcast, I don't want it showing up my search results anymore. And so I hit that flag about a day before Apple hit it on their end. And that threw me, into this world of angry one-star reviews and, you know, controversy that there are still, I mean, this was probably four or five years ago, there are still people to this day who every time I issue an update, they'll go update their one-star review to say, you know, still one-star

censorship, you know, all these, you know, kind of hot-button words. And I don't regret doing that. I would do this exact same thing if it was presented to me today, but that's the kind of thing that I didn't expect to have to deal with when I was making this 10 years ago thinking I'm making a podcast app for other nerds like me. And the need for that is only grown. You know, we have, obviously, in our modern media landscape, podcasts have gotten much bigger, and the podcast audience has gotten much bigger. And we have, we keep having more and more points like that,

or where there's some dispute about whether a podcast should be listed, whether somebody should be deplatformed or hidden from search or hidden from recommendations. And those are really tough, hairy problems that nerds like me are not good at dealing with. And I was hoping to be able to outsource those two. Apple because they are better at dealing with it, but sometimes that problem falls on me anyway. And I wish it didn't have to, but that's the reality of doing business in today's media world. We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll talk about the current landscape of app development.

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Okay, I'm back with Alex Kranz. All right, so we're coming up on the 15th anniversary of the launch of Apple's App Store this summer. And Marco's been there since like the beginning, right? And it was so different between now and 15 years ago. And people have some really high expectations for apps today compared to like 10, 15 years ago when you didn't care. Like I had one solitaire app. Now there's a billion.

And they all suck. Yeah. I mean, my slot machine casino apps are out of control on my 1500. Actually, it's got to be more than 1,500 clones of Candy Crush, right? Yeah. It's like just some outrageous number. And you will always click on an ad when you're trying to click on one of the little. I'm feeling my blood pressure go up just thinking about it.

So I bet like Marco's got some really keen insight into this transformation given that he experienced all of it. He definitely does. So let's jump back into here what he said about how creating apps has changed over the last 15 years. You know, the world of app development used to be its own little thing. And now it's the whole world. You know, the app development, it's gotten so big that now just. So much of everyday communication and media and commerce is now flowing through apps and people doing things with their phones. And that wasn't the case in 2008 when this all started. And everything has scaled to match that.

The complexity, the costs, the competition. You know, this is part of the reason why I think the epic trial is interesting is because, you know, Apple's original argument back forever ago in the launch of the app store, I think holds a lot more water than it does today in terms of, you know, what people are allowed to do, what they are required to comply with, what fees there. required to pay. You know, that made more sense back when it was closer to a game console or closer to, you know, quote, an app console, whereas now it's like this is such a major part of commerce and society that I think some regulation is probably needed. But, you know, to directly answer

the question, I guess, everything, you know, the requirements are are bigger everywhere. So people's expectations are bigger. People expect, for instance, that, first of all, everything has to be free. Like that's number one is like you have an app that charges money for anything. There better be a really good reason for that. And you're going to have a ton of people. If any paywall you put up, you got to assume almost nobody will go over it. So your free version has to be really good. And that's going to be the majority experience of your app.

That's why like, you know, when I did my free version, overcast has always been free. And I've always, I've had various, you know, schemes over the years to try to make any kind of money from it. And I went through a bunch of the beginning that didn't work very well. But I eventually settled on this model where I had these ads that would, promote podcasts in Overcast. And when I made the system, you know, I did it all myself. I very briefly had like a Google ad unit in the app and I was trying to figure out my business model. And I hated it. I hated those ads. I hated having to bundle the Google stuff in my app and I hated not knowing what they were doing with the data. And frankly, the ads were terrible as well. Like the quality

of the app was terrible. So when I finally figured out like this, putting my, you know, ads for podcasts in there, I made the whole system myself and it uses pretty much no data. It's like, It's a very simple thing. And this was something that, you know, I had the luxury being one person. I have the luxury to do things like if a, you know, ad buyer writes in to say, hey, could you give us demographic information on the people? I can just say, nope, sorry, don't, I don't collect it. I'm not going to collect it.

That's it. Like, I don't have any pressure from other people telling me, we, we just sold this big deal and you're required to now try to get, you know, geographic targeting and stuff. And it's like, I can just do things how I want to. And I know exactly all the data that I'm collecting and not collecting. And like, you know, the privacy policy, I wrote it myself. You know, I based it on other people, so I made sure I wasn't missing anything. But, you know, I know, I know, because I've written all the code, I know everything I'm collecting and everything I'm not collecting.

And I don't have to, like, worry it. Am I accidentally? Am I missing something? Am I violating something? Not knowing what I'm doing? Nope, I know everything that's in there. But being one person in this modern world, people expect apps to have tons of functionality. They expect all to be free.

And they expect all sorts of things like, you know, sync, cloud versions. They expect, you know, for an iOS app, it's got to have an Apple Watch app. It's got to have iPad and maybe even Mac. It's got to have widgets. You know, it's got to have Siri integration and all these different system level features it has to have. You know, you have some kind of web presence so that links can be sent around. And then you can maybe have an app clip if you're really going nuts or you can have at least, you know, rich previews for when people message your links and you're supposed to have some kind of, you know, growth marketing efforts where you're trying to get new customers. And that's increasingly difficult. as there's way, way, way more competition for everything than there ever was before. And so those are the areas where, like, it can be hard as one person to compete in those areas if you're not doing something, if you're not being very careful choosing what not to do. And that's the only reason I'm able to compete at all is that I very aggressively prune my idea list and other people's request lists down to what I can actually do as one person. And so there's certain features that I'm never going to offer.

Like, for instance, there is no way anywhere and over. that you can write text that will be visible to other users because that requires moderation. And that's a huge can of worms that you open up huge potential for abuse and spam and things. And so there's no way to review podcasts and overcast. And people often ask, hey, how can I leave a review for the podcast? And I have to say, no, sorry, I'm not going to do that feature. I can't do that feature. I think it speaks to to go back to what you were talking about about why you left Tumblr.

once you start adding staff, then you're managing more than you're doing, right? So it's, it kind of also comes back to that where it's like, that's the reason you left a corporation, a company, you know, that because there was that tipping point of, well, now I'm going to have to manage. And I'd rather do and be really hands on. And, you know, why would you want to go back to that if that's the whole reason you walked away from it in the first place, you know? Yeah. And not only that, but that's, not only is it a different job, it's a different skill set. You know, like, you can't, you know, one of the big problems our industry has had for a long time and companies have tried to solve it in various ways is like, you know, when you advance in your career, oftentimes the only way to advance to the next level is to become a manager. And that's not the path for everybody. And, you know, so, you know, good companies have found ways to make, you know, individual contributor paths that are not into management, but, you know, because that's, they realize that's a whole different skill set. And so, you know, not only would I, would I not want to be a manager of a staff, I also would be terrible at it. Whereas, like, I'm pretty decent at making an app. And so I'm just going to, I'm going to stick with what I'm

decent at and try to avoid this messy, hairy area where I think I would do more harm than good. How do you keep all the plates spinning? Because you're not just as solo app developer. You don't just work on overcast. You're podcasting. You've got multiple podcasts that you work on. And you do other things. So how do you keep all of those plates spinning? Like, what is your personal process for time management and self-discipline? If I ever find it, I'll let you know. I don't. It's a great answer. Spoken like a true freelancer. Yeah. Part of the reason why I'm more compatible with self-employment than I ever was with regular employment is that I'm terrible at disciplined work hours. I would go into my job and I would be there from nine to five, but I was not really working that whole time.

And it didn't really fit the way my brain works. Yeah. Those are not necessarily people's most productive hours of the day. Right. And people aren't necessarily. going to have the same productivity every day during that same time at the same level. You know, I've always worked in bursts. And I can get just a ton of great work done for like three hours one day and then do nothing of any value for the next two weeks. Like that's, that's how I've always worked in the kind of erratic patterns. We have that in common. Yeah. I think it's common among nerds, actually. Maybe it is. Yeah. I just, I feel, I feel like we're

kindred spirits in that. I'm a person who's like, wow, I just blacked out and got like a, just an absolutely bonkers amount of work done in four hours, two weeks worth of work. And now I will do nothing for four days. Yep, it's exactly. And that's how I've always worked. And so it was always, it was always a little hard to try to like wedge my actual brain into the expectations of nine to five job. And I was very lucky to have very understanding bosses, really, you know, in the grand scheme of things. But ultimately, the independent life fits me better when I'm motivated to work on a certain project. You know, obviously, I do podcasts. You know, you mentioned, and so those have schedules. And so that's, that kind of keeps me grounded, so I at least

know what day of the week it is. But otherwise, like, for coding work, it's, it's pretty much when I'm inspired and when I, when I have the time and the concentration to do it. And that's a bunch of pretty big conditions. So it doesn't happen regularly. And I used to feel terrible about that. I used to, you know, just feel bad. Like, I'm, I'm not working the way I should. I'm not doing enough work. You know, I'm a slacker and whatever else. Because that's, that was my whole school career was being told that basically. Again, probably something that's not super uncommon among nerds. But I've come in more recent times to just accept this is just how I work. And I'll try, I'll work within it as best as I can. And, you know, I'll try not to pass all those insecurities along to my kid along the way,

who seems to be working in a very similar way as I am so far. I juggle it kind of poorly, but it ends up coming out okay, largely because I think a huge amount of the actual work that gets, done in my field didn't have to get done. There's a huge amount of wasted effort of, you know, either people doing things in inefficient ways or people working on the wrong problems or putting more work into a problem than it justifies. Protecting your time, I think, is a really good theme for today's episode. And on that note, I'm not going to take any more of yours. But before we go, I do want to mention you, as I've said, are a podcaster. And so I would love for you to tell people where they can find your work online and enjoy it.

Sure. So my main show is called ATP, the Accidental Tech Podcast. And we talk mostly about Apple and tech news of the week. We are super nerdy. And if you are into that, ATP.fm is our site for that. Delightful. Thanks, Marco. Thank you.

Once again, just a huge thank you to Marco Arment for talking to me about his whole entire career, basically, and having a lot of fun in the process. Alex, did you have a good time? I had the best time. I'm honestly pretty bummed that this is the end of the miniseries. I mean, there's only one thing you can do, which is have me back at some point. Yeah, we're going to do duets. The next one will be duets, just two people.

Duets. Two people. And trios? Yeah. I mean, we could just keep going. We could just keep going until we're like at Twitter size. That won't take very long the way Twitter is going. Yeah.

Well, it'll sort of cross at some point in a little. There'll be a convergence. It'll work out really well. It'll be fun. Well, thank you again, Ashley. This has been a wonderful time spending with you. I've learned way too much, but I've had an exciting time. So thank you so, so much. I am very glad to have had all of the guests that we spoke to. And if anybody is super curious or if you missed any of the previous interviews, you can go back. You can listen to them. I talked to the founder of Hive Social,

Ruluka Pop. I talked to Alan Klein. He created Mickriblocator.com. I talked to a solo game developer, Madison Carr about her game birth and the state of solo game development. And then I also talk to Tiny Makes Things, who is a custom keycap creator if you're into mechanical keyboards. You can go catch any of those previous episodes. And I highly recommend you do if you have it because they're really just such interesting people. Don't go for me. Go for them. Go listen to them. Thank you again, Ashley. And thank you all for listening because that's it. That's it for the show today. That's it for the Solo Axe miniseries. This whole thing was produced by Andrew Marino and Liam James. Brooke Mentors is our editorial director of audio. And the Vergecast is a

Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. And you have thoughts and feedbacks and feelings and you want to know even more about Soloax. You can always email us at Vergecast at theverge.com Or you can call the hotline at 866 Verge 11. Again, that's 866 Verge 11. We love to hear your questions and then try to answer them on the show. And we're going to be back again on Wednesday for an all new episode of The Vergecast. then, stay classy, and thank you, Ashley.