The Viall Files - ANTM w/ Jay Manuel, RHOP w/ Monique Samuels, Love Is Blind w/ Ashley and Summer House

Episode Date: February 19, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  It's an absolutely jam packed episode, as we welcome Jay Manuel to get into Reality Check: Inside America's Next Top Model, Ashley to chat Love Is Blind, and Monique Samuels to dive into Part 1 of the RHOP Reunion. Plus, we gab about Summer House. You won't want to miss it! "This isn't a game to me. This is my life, my marriage."  MERCH COUNTDOWN: https://shop.viallfiles.com/password  The Viall Files is going LIVE with the new cast of Temptation Island on May 6th! Tickets are on sale NOW! For more information, please visit netflixisajokefest.com.  Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff now!  Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774298881  Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NWA8LBk15l2u5tNQqDcOO?si=3b868996930347e8  Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod Listen To Disrespectfully with Katie Maloney and Dayna Kathan now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Better Wild - Right now, Betterwild is offering our listeners up to 40% off your order at https://betterwild.com/viall  Nature's Sunshine - Get a daily detox with Chlorophyll Stick Packs. Nature's Sunshine is offering 20% off your first order plus free shipping. Go to https://naturessunshine.com and use the code VIALL at checkout. Upside - Upside has given back $1 Billion dollars to its users. To find out how much you could earn, Download the FREE Upside App and use promo code VIALL to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas. Goldbelly - If you are looking for that perfect gift, or want to impress your friends and family with an epic meal the next time you host, go to https://goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code VIALL. Quo - Make this the year where no opportunity — and no customer — slips away. Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to https://quo.com/viall  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 02:38 - Summer House 25:42 - Ashley Joins 51:06 - Jay Joins 1:33:50 - Monique Joins 1:52:34 - Outro Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @mrjaymanuel @_ashcarpenter @moniquesamuels @ciaracrobinson @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein @the_mare_bare

You guys know we're really focused on our health, and right now that includes our dogs, Jeff and Steve, because we want them to feel their best, too. Jeff and Steve are constantly itching, and we learned that this isn't normal dog behavior. It's actually a sign of allergies. That's right. Your dogs can have allergies, too. Just like humans, dogs need probiotics to strengthen their gut health and calm and overactive immune system. That's why we use better wild allergy relief soft choose, a supplement designed to support your pet's allergy defense by strengthening digestive. They're the first and only choose with ancestral advantage wolf probiotics inspired by your dog's

mighty ancestor, the wolf, to help restore a healthy balance of good bacteria in their gut. The key ingredients are a premium blend of wolf probiotics called the ancestral advantage designed to rewild your dog's gut. Al-Sakiye, a post-biotic derived from kimchi. That's been clinically proven to reduce itchiness and redness in just two months with daily use. colostrum to boost immune function and fight inflammation and salmon oil to support healthy skin and fur. Watching Jeff and Steve struggle with allergies was tough, but adding BetterWild, allergy relief, soft chews has been a game changer few symptoms, happy pups, and peace of mind for us.

BetterWile is committed to helping your dog with science-backed veterinarian-approved solutions that you can feel great about. Right now, BetterWile is offering our listeners up to 40% off your order at BetterWild.com slash V-I-A-LL that is BetterWild.com slash V-I-A-L for 40% off. your forced order. That's betterwild.com slash V-I-A-L. Imagine if today was the day your idea changed someone's life.

Imagine if you could help someone pay for college. Help your community build a new playground or help a child make it to that dream competition. With GoFundMe, it's all possible. GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform trusted by over 190 million people.

Every week, ordinary people meet their goals and do extraordinary things. Your ideas matter. GoFundMe isn't just for emergencies, want to raise money for your kids' soccer team or raise funds for a small business, a creative project or event? GoFundMe helps you turn ideas into reality. And help adds up. Fundraisers you start for someone else? Raise up to five times more. So think right now. Who could use your help? Change rarely comes from waiting. It comes from someone deciding, today I'll start.

Don't wait for someone else to bring change. Today start your fundraiser in just minutes at gofundme.com. That's gofundme.com to start your fundraiser. Gofundme.com. This is a commercial message brought to you by GoFundMe. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Val Fow's reality recap edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by my wonderful, gorgeous wife, Natalie Joy. I'm rushing a little bit because, guys, we have one of the most jam-packed episodes we've ever had, and we've had a lot. But boy, do we have a lot of great content for you. We have Jay Manuel with us to talk about. the documentary reality check that covers America's Next Top Model.

Number one on Netflix right now. Everyone is talking about it and he is definitely one of the main characters of that documentary. We have Jay with us which we are very excited to unpack all of your burning questions. We also have Ashley from Love is Blind

to talk about the pods and her relationship with Alex along with all the other drama going on in the Love is Blind season, 10 season. And Monique Samuels from Real Housewives of Potomac. We got the reunion going on right now, and she joins us to break down her thoughts on this very great season of the Real Housewives of Potomac.

So lots coming your way. We got Susie here in the household. We got Justin on the couch. Finally, he's back. Mary pink hair. Yeah. Mary's hair is looking great. So much to get into.

Also, do not forget that. Valfa's is going live. If you want to, we are finally doing a live show and we're teaming up with Netflix as a joke to host a live event with the upcoming cast of Temptation Island. So it's going to be sexy, raunchy, fun, full of drama, bring your friends, bring your girlfriends, your partner. It's a great fun night out. Join us.

Tickets are now available. Let's go to the link in bio to get those tickets. It's May 6. And don't forget, ValfaS Plus is now ad free. And you get some amazing content. And like our reality recap deep dyes where we dive even deeper on some of your favorite reality recap shows like Love is Blind and the America's Next Top Model documentary as well as your update special, all your favorite updates on your favorite ass Nick calls and your pop extra episodes. So be sure to check that out. Just go to VileFiles.com. And you will be glad that you did. All right. I think, Susie, I'm really excited to get into the America's Next Top Model conversation with you is a fellow reality TV castmate. But before we do, I'm. I'm really excited. I'm really excited to get into the America's Next Top Model conversation with you is a fellow reality TV castmate. But before we do, I want to let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's talk a little summer house before we get to some of these other shows this was um quite the episode i i the Kyle and a man of it all it's more it's like I don't want to like always have the guy side that's you know but I I will say with an audience that's primarily women I I am willing to just have you know just to try to see a point of view of of of of the man out there and you're like you know with west you know back in the day you know you know, I understood at least partly where West was coming from. But with Kyle, it is so, it's so

painful to watch this relationship go down in flames. How can he not connect the dots between what his wife is trying to communicate to him? And he's so reactive. Like, every time she's just like, the drinking, the drinking, he keeps acting like that's like a scapegoat. And it's so frustrating. And I just, I wish one of his boys would check him. Yeah. Yeah. It's a hard watch. And I'll be honest, I'm new to Summer House, but I'm deep on TikTok.

So I feel like I'm a little bit aware. And watching the episode, I think if I hadn't been on TikTok and like scenes from previous seasons, I could have bought in a little bit to like, dang, like she's really being hard on him. And it seems like she doesn't care. But just knowing what I know, I feel like she's just a woman that is so. over it. Like she's at the point where it's like I personally kind of relate to this just from my personal life from past relationships where it's like at some point like one person's showing up on the relationship and sometimes it's the other person and at this point it's neither of them like neither of them are fighting for it and she has bent at the knee it seems like for years. She has like

let go of her boundaries for the past seven years or whatever it's been they've been together like making exceptions for him and him being out and with everything they've been through and I'm just watching her and I'm like, I know what it feels like to be that woman where you're like, I'm over this and I'm not interested in like tiptoeing around this. I'm going to be mean to you. Yeah. I don't have the patience. I don't have the capacity to like walk you through this and like spoon feed you through this anymore. And like I feel that for her.

At one point he said and I quote, I was the least fucked up person there as if like, you know, imagine being married to someone for years. and they're, I mean, it's great, you're an extrovert, you're a socialite, you like going out, that's not a crime. But like, to the degree in which he continues to think that's okay, and it's not even like, it's not even like he's going out most nights, but he's home by midnight. It's like he's, it sounds like he's going out often. And when he does, it's all night long, you know, and I, I know as like a, someone who's a little

bit more of an introvert. But like, you know, once you're in a committed relationship, I just, you know, when you're a committed relationship, it's nice to get out every once in a while. And I'm not saying just because you're in a committed relationship, you can't go out to the bar with your friends because you're doing something wrong. But like there's only so much hanging with the boys you can do before, like eventually you are putting yourself in compromising situations where being friendly and flirty is a very thin line. And it's just like, that's why a lot of people who get into committed relationships, like, lose that desire to go out all the time, because it's like they realize so much about going out was flirting and meeting people,

the sex in which you are attracted to, you know, and it's just the fact that I get that Kyle's an extrovert and he goes out, but he is not willing to make any compromises for her. And like when, and when Kyle says things like, I'm trying, I'm like, I can't, I just nothing that can do is right. and I'm trying so hard. I just wish one of his boys, like Wes, who's like, Kyle needs some, like, hard coaching. Like, be like, that's not your best.

That's some, if that's your best, that's some weak-ass shit. Like, it's just like, you got to show up for your partner. When your partner is this like, yo, can you please not do X, Y, or Z? He just throws a temper tantrum. He, like, stomps his feet. And it's like, I can't believe you're asking me that. And it's just like, how, you would just think someone be like, yo, like, how do you watch this back and, like, not be a little kind of embarrassed about it?

I feel like Carl did try to say something right after the dinner when he did storm off, because Carl was like, just stopped. Yeah. Like just stop. Yeah. And the soft boy Carl way. Yeah, to your point, Nick, Kyle's walking away from each of these conversations, putting it on Amanda. Like he said at the, what is it, the apology dunes or whatever they called it, he was like,

I don't even know who I married and like stormed off. And it's like, he called her. Boring and like. Lazy, Bori, I don't know, he was, that was, that was some mean ass shit. And he lost his shit because, and again, maybe this was edited out, but he accused Amanda of calling him an alcoholic, which I didn't hear those words at all. She obviously mentioned the drinking. But when your defense is, I'm the least fucked up person there. His response to that was also, you lead me to the drink, which is crazy.

Right. Like, not something someone says if they don't have a problem with drinking. I think what Susie said was exactly what it is, is they've both dropped the filter, and they're all saying what we've heard in between the lines every other season. Like, she's talking about the cheating and she's not fully denying it. He's bringing up, like, they're just bringing up things that they've clearly had struggles over. No, I mean, I get it, but at least with mandas, it's like, okay, shit, if that's happening, I totally get you. I just like, I can't understand where Kyle's coming from. I agree.

Yeah. It's like one person's talking about, this is how I saw it. Like one person's talking about habits and like bad decision making. The other person is pointing the finger at somebody's character, their personality, like who they are. And I'm like, you marry a person for those things. You don't marry them for their habits. Those things can change and you can express like frustration and hurt and pain behind those things. But to look at somebody and be like, you're not interesting.

You don't like stimulate me intellectually. I don't know. Those aren't the exact words. But like he kind of was pointing at those things. I'm like, you're pointing at who she is and saying you're the problem. she's saying here's a habit that you need to work on. Those are two really big differences. And one of them is very damaging.

Yeah. Totally. And also the way he's able to like flip the script and do it in a way. I mean, like the whole like smoking conversation where he's like, you just, you're high all day. And she's like, I don't smoke until I take the dogs out on their last walk, which is at 10 p.m. I'm not smoking until after 10.30, you have all day to talk to me. And he's like, you need to be an adult and like have a job. It's like,

I mean, maybe not. She's like, no, again, it's at 10.30 at night. That was definitely a tip or top. He was like, I'm going to bring this up because you're bringing up my party. Yeah. Which also like, she has a job. She's on reality TV. I'm sure she gets deals.

Yeah. When he was throwing out those like, you know, character digs, he was like, we have no compatibility. We also have nothing in common. And I'm like, that's also compatibility. no but it's just like yeah it Kyle treats it is like is if that's Amanda's only responsibility in this relationship is to like root for Kyle without question never you know only just only pat him on the back as long as he is motivated and inspired that needs to as far as Kyle's is concerned that needs to be good enough and he is expecting Amanda to always just be happy that he is motivated that he is

motivated and inspired and he's always doing the right thing. And, you know, Carl was like this too, but like at some point, yeah, you need a cheerleader, but sometimes you have to be able to take some constructive criticism if we're using sports analogies. Yeah, you want people believing you and you need to pan in the back, but sometimes you need to like, you need to be checked. And Kyle is just like when any time anyone checks him, I mean, it's a literal temper tantrum. It also is so sad watching like after he's. stands up on the beach and he's like, you have no personality, you have no drive, you have no whatever. And she just is kind of like, laughs it off. And it's like, you are so used to being

talked to like this. Like it's not shocking to you. It's not like, oh my God, I can't believe you just said that to me. It's like, yeah, this happens all the time. And then hearing her in bed with Sierra being like, is he going to treat our kids this way? So heartbreaking, so sad. But honestly, great question for her to ask. Like, you're literally picking the person you're going to raise a child with and, like, how he talks to you, it's probably going to be even worse to a little kid who doesn't have, like, the capacity to function properly. Like, he's going to snap. I think she has no tears left to cry. Like, I think that's what we're saying. Sincerely, I'm not trying to, like, beat him down or whatever, but I genuinely would love to know, like,

in a deeper conversation, whether it's on the show or just offline from his standpoint, like, how does he not see what everyone seems to be seeing? And outside of like not feeling like, outside of being upset that his wife doesn't fully support his DJ career, why can't you understand her frustration and the shit you put her through? How, why is that so hard to understand? And you keep saying you love her,

but you're not willing to do anything that makes her feel love love. or supported or believed in. And it's just like at what point, like, do you expect Amanda to keep caring? While he keeps showing up, and his biggest gripe is basically, like, you don't like me or, you know, and it's like he keeps doing things

that are just hard to respect. I just don't know anyone who's just like, I'm gonna, I want to marry a party person. I want to marry a party boy. I want to marry someone who like, just like, needs to feel that. Like that's like that's like that's the only every time I watch summer house that's the only thing that gets Kyle kind of like Yeah, you know his his heart pump that's true you know

And his cardboard cutouts of everybody If only he could left the softness of a beautiful woman fill his art in that way as well I think I don't no one's no one's ever been like yet that's what I want I think that's my dream that's my man People will like him better, single, and pursuing his career. Like, I think this industry, there's such a, you get such a hit off of followers, likes, validation publicly. I can only imagine being a DJ and being live somewhere, the thrill that you get being on stage and people chanting.

Like, I have to imagine it is very addictive. And I say this with compassion for both of them, honestly, because I think it's really hard to be in a public relationship. But I think that people are going to like him better pursuing that and being honest that that is his priority right now and letting her go find somebody else who will fulfill what it is that she's looking for. And I think they'll both be happier. And like, honestly, from the press, it seems like they already are. And it kind of is like they both loved each other and they were trying to make it work. But like they wanted different things. And that in itself will cause so much turmoil. It kind of paralyzed Carl and.

And Lindsay parallels them because when Carl Lindsay finally split, now people are seeing them kind of come back together and goof around, but then actually see them successful on their own. I feel for Kyle in the sense that like, and again, maybe this is all for show. Maybe this isn't all who Kyle is. But if Kyle can't change the way he views his responsibility to show up in a relationship, he's just never going to be happy in a relationship outside the honeymoon phase. You know, most likely you can, you know, a guy who's DJing, you know, he'll, yeah, he'll get a

girlfriend. She'll think he's great for a while, you know, it'll feel, he'll be like, yeah, this, I finally am dating someone who I have a lot in common with. But it just, it never ages well. And I think he's going to keep searching for that fulfillment in, in these, like, pursuits. And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that you were. really fine fulfillment in that. I think that if he really does want a relationship, he is going to have that cycle of new girlfriend. Oh, this is exciting. She validates me X, Y, and Z, but then he's

going to let her down. It's going to be this continuous cycle. And I say, I could be completely wrong, but I do think that that will probably be the case and it will be a continuous case until he either realized I'm not getting fulfillment. I need to look at myself and figure this out, but it might, it might be 10 years from now. Like, I feel like, and he, it might never happen. It might never happen. Yeah, I mean, it's like Kyle Cook, there is a, there's a madman-esque energy to Kyle Cook of just like a, you will always just be searching for that thing. Exactly. And unless you let yourself have it, you're never going to find it. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I know. Yeah. It's, do you think there's a part of him that, especially since Jesse and West showed up, two very charismatic kind of party boys who are leaning into like, hey, I'm. I have this public persona now. I'm single. I'm open to a relationship, but hey, like, I'm not, right now I'm just kind of comfortable being single and having that freedom, which at their stage in life makes a lot of sense. They realize that maybe they're not ready for a relationship. And they're obviously a bit younger, but do you think, you know, watching Jesse and West come in, you have Kyle almost resenting the fact that when he does go out, he has to behave himself and he can't

lean in and he can't like really enjoy the attention he receives from all the people who give him the intention when he's out. I believe he's kind of had this behavior in previous seasons prior to Jesse and Wes. I could be wrong. I think what it is is more Amanda wanting to actually settle down and being vocal about that, which is kind of like showing to him that it's not what he wants. I just I would be really curious to ask him. Like you said your greatest fear in life is to not have a family by the time your parents pass. And I don't know how old his parents are. And hopefully they're with us for a long time. But he said it as if like he doesn't think he has a great deal of time left. And if that is your greatest fear, then what are you doing about making sure

prioritizing to avoiding your greatest fear coming to life? Because all the things he seems to be prioritizing have nothing to do with making sure his greatest fear doesn't come become a reality. Maybe he's just now realizing that that's his greatest fear. Like that could be too. I don't know that I don't know because I haven't watched, but I'm like, if this hasn't come up before, maybe this is coming up because he's realizing, oh, I'm choosing this path rather than this path. And that could mean the difference of my parents being around for that part of my life or not. Because when you get divorced and when you break up in a serious relationship at this point in our lives, like when you're in your 30s or whatever, like you're realizing like, oh, there's several years ahead before I get to that point most of the time. and you're like this, it makes a big difference in your timeline.

And so maybe he's coming to that realization. And it's definitely the right choice based on their behavior, but it might be a hard pill to swallow. Yeah, I mean, you're right. You're always like, if you end a relationship, you're thinking, I mean, like three or four years, you know, you meet, you know, unless I meet someone tomorrow, let's, you give yourself six to 12 months to meet someone. And then like six to 12 months to date and six to 12 months.

to get engaged. And that's assuming everything's fast-tracked, right? You know, and that's still three to five years. I want to talk about Sierra and West a little bit. The love of his life.

I am giggling and kicking my feet. I want them together so then. I don't even know the lore, but I do too. I'm seeing things online and I'm like, wait, there's such true. Don't worry about the lore. Don't worry about the lore. Okay. I think there's just a couple of hotties

who love to give each other the attention they enjoy. Exactly. And I think it's great right where it is. They've healed a little bit. Most of the hurt has subsided. There's still a friendship there. They're still mutual expect.

When they both feel lonely for whatever reason in their interpersonal or dating lives, they can validate each other. Maybe even have a great makeout. I don't know. Fine. You know, have fun on the dance floor. Maybe a date at the wedding.

Maybe a date at the wedding is a little too on the note. for them. That's part of the law. Two on the nose. Yeah. We can skip that one. But nevertheless, I think they're in a good spot. And they tried the, the serious romantic feeling thing. And it doesn't work for everyone. It doesn't, it doesn't work for them. So, no, I don't want them to get together. I want them to sit right where they are. And it seems like it works for them. Look, I watched Weathering Heights and that showed me that love can be truly toxic. And I know Sierra was at the Weathering Heights premiere, so she watched it too. And I just want her to know if she's going to choose to go with Wes,

girl, listen to yourself, be honest with yourself. Oh, really? Or. So we don't repeat cycles. Oh, okay. Or maybe just, it's like, I think what's happening is they're kind of just meeting each other where they're at. So it's like, I'm not giggling and kicking my feet because I think Sierra and West are

going to get married in our end game. I'm just like, they should fuck. Yeah. It's so cute, but it's also like we saw how like serious and intense that like fallout was. And like it really is up to Sierra to feel comfortable to enter that again. Yeah. Which is what West was saying. West was literally like, I can't tell.

Yeah. West is like, I can't tell if she, if we're friends, we're flirting or if she hates his guts. Yeah. Which is exciting. That's awesome. That's exciting. That's part of the thrill. That's why he's so.

That's the most fun part I feel like. That's true. Yeah. It's everyone loves to be like confused and then get dangled along a little bit. Like even though you don't want to. I'll never forget when I was in high school. I was graduate in high school and some girl. who was like in a different friend group and I thought she got really cute and she's like,

I don't like you. And I'm like in my mind, I'm thinking, I love you. Yeah. You know, like as soon as. As soon as she said that. Yeah. Oh my God. That was like the most romantic thing I've ever heard in my life.

You're like, oh my God, you're going to be mean to me. Yeah. I'm going to fall in love with you. You hate me? You hate me? This is perfect. Oh my God. I love a challenge.

I love it. It was like the best Valentine's Day car. I fucking hate your guts. Like, oh my God. But yeah, that kind of reminds me of that. And it's fun and it's exhilarating. And it's like they have a great thing going right now. Don't ruin it with real feelings.

You know, it's interesting. Her friendship with Jesse Solomon. Yeah. Because they were feuding. But this season they're like. She's like, you should date a girl like me. Not me. They're like giving advice each other and they're being like healthy friendship kind of.

Uh-huh. They're girling out. Yeah. He's one of the girls. Yeah. Another great friendship where it's just like, I don't think I want to date this person. We've never done anything physically, but I recognize they're an attractive person

and the other person feels the same way. And it's always like the, what if we did fuck? Yeah. Kind of, that's also fun. Didn't they try, like, kind of teasing a relationship last season, or am I wrong?

There was like a moment. They leaned in a little bit, right? But obviously with Lexi. Well, because that caused drama with Jesse and Lexi. But also, did you guys notice Jesse being like, yeah, Lexi wasn't a real relationship? The flashbacks to Lexi? Crazy.

I was like, he just said that with his full chest. I know that girl is pissed. Oh, another thing I thought about, first of all, like KJ, what a really appreciate his vulnerability. His abs are just. I felt the exact same way. Very impressive. Yeah. But as KJ talked about his relationship with his father, who, by the way, a professional baseball player, if I'm, if I'm correct, right?

So his dad, from a professional standpoint, very accomplished. And he told this story about his one day his dad, who he didn't know, showed up with a bunch of gifts. And I feel like that's the path that Kyle is on. He's super fixated on being professionally successful while saying, you know, yeah, I want kids and I want a family someday and I hope my parents meet my kids. But like, he just never, he's not showing that that's something he really cares about. And is he going to end up being the dad who like shows up with a bunch of gifts and And things like that's enough to make your like your kids feeling validated and feeling care for and feeling seen.

And it just made me really sad because there are a lot of parents out there like that. Yeah. What keeps me, what keeps you playing in my head is Amanda last season being like, when does work stop? Like work never stops for Kyle. That's the thing like he's never prioritized her. It was like lover boy, now DJing. I'm sure there's been other things in the mix, drinking, going out.

partying. Like she's just never been his priority and it's so sad. And you can be a hard-ass working person who is very career focused and still show up for the people you love. Yeah. I will say I like that they're showing the reality of this on TV. I don't think it's super common to see a relationship unfold this way. I mean, honestly, I was thinking about that too.

And they're just like, it's got to be so meta for them to like just be taking off like the gloves or the handcuffs or the filters and just I mean I have to believe at this point we're watching they both know it's over and they are deciding to lean in yeah that being said I hope they're okay like not to be cheesy but I'm like I hope they're like it's so hard to watch back any even positive things online about your on TV about yourself so like I feel like as we are just talking about it I'm like oh I just I'm grateful that people are vulnerable enough to go on TV and share it because it is really interesting and it is very real. Like, all us talking about it, I'm like, it's not that we haven't seen this in our own

friend groups or experience it ourselves. Like, this is the reality of being married or dating or whatever it is and like to be vulnerable and do it on TV is a lot. So. Well, that's why I started by saying like, I'm not like looking to defend Kyle. Yeah. Kyle is a person who clearly, he feels strongly about his feelings. And whether he's right or wrong or whether we connect with his point of view, he feels victimized by it. And I am sad that he feels that way, but he can't like, yeah, and other people are having a hard time relating to his point of view. Anyway, yeah. All right. Well, we have Ashley up next to talk about all the drama going on in Love is Blind, especially her relationship with Alex, which we have a lot of

questions to ask. Ashley, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Very excited to have you. I'm a little nervous. Oh, don't be nervous.

Well, let's start off with a softball. Why did you join this show? Obviously, I'm always, I asked this a question to everyone. It's such a fascinating experiment. Certainly not for everybody. But I'm just curious about what led you to be willing to take such a, yeah, exciting, but crazy, you know, risk. I guess, in your love.

story, so to speak. Yes. So it was actually like a very crazy opportunity that just came up for me. And I'm like a big person on signs. And I had just gone through a pretty tough breakup. I had dated this guy for five years. We broke up and instantly like all these positive things started happening to me. I got a new promotion. I got a new apartment. I got all these things happening. And then all of a sudden like my friends were like, you need to go out for love is blind. And I was kind of like, no. I don't want to be that girl. But they started reaching out to me. And again, I was kind of like, okay, this is a sign.

Like, if they're reaching out, like, there's got to be some good to come from this. So they, like, slid into my DMs and they were like, let's set up a call. And I instantly started, like, freaking out. I was like, this is crazy. But in the past, I'm not going to lie. Like, I go for looks. And I think a lot of people do that. Like, you instantly see someone and you're like, hmm, that guy has an appearance that I like.

And, you know, you go for that. And as my dad has said, everybody said, I've got a bad picker. I go for looks. And then I kind of like forget about everything else. So I was like, well, this is a great opportunity to find out like after my breakup, if I've really healed, if I've grown and I can trust myself to make a good decision about someone based off of everything else other than the looks. So I was like, why not try it? You know, I wasn't ready for dating apps. I was just, like I was on it for five minutes and I was like, I can't have another conversation that's like, what's your favorite color? Like, I don't care. So this really kind of like throws you in to forcefully trust yourself to ask hard questions very early on and knowing someone. And I think that's kind of what appealed to me. I was like, I won't be able to see what they look like.

I'm going to fall for this person based off of if they match my values, my morals and like what I want in my life rather than, oh my God, he's so cute. So I think that's why I was. ultimately interested in it. That's awesome. I'm curious. How was your relationship different with Alex once you got out of the pods and or what changes did you notice in him once you guys were out of the pods? I think it was so different for me in the pods because I read a lot of body language. And my dad kind of says it too. Like honesty is written all over the body. Yeah. So in the pods, I'm going off of a voice telling me things. I don't know if he's pacing around nervously. I don't know, you know,

if he's, like, looking a certain way. If there's, like, infliction is, like, different things go into it. So I think once I was out of the pods, I'm very analytical. I'm pretty logical. So I was, like, catching myself kind of picking up on those things. And I ask a lot of questions. I know I do. And I'm just a curious person. I'm still getting to know this person outside of the pods and we're still on this journey to get married at the end of this. So I ask a lot of questions. And if something, you know, it like sounds a little bit different than what we talked about in the pods or something doesn't add up, I asked more questions. And with Alex, it was just hard for me because I already asked a lot of questions. I'm already a yapper. And then out of the pods,

I could catch those little like micro expressions or anything he was doing with his body language. and if something didn't add up, I'd ask more questions. And it's so hard, he has such a crazy, unique, interesting story. So I think, like, the more I asked those questions, I could kind of feel it in him. It was like, we've already talked about this. And I'm like, I know, but I like, it's really hard for me to keep track because he's been all of the world. He's traveled.

He's lived different places. He's had these different jobs. And I could kind of tell, like, he was probably like, why is this girl asking me so many questions? But again, I'm there to find my husband. Like, I need to make sure this person. person is telling me everything I need to know before I say I do at that altar. I do feel like out of anyone he probably enjoys talking about himself more than anything else.

Watching you back, I'm like, did I say things? Like, did I speak? I'm like, I think in the pods, like I was like, yeah. Yeah. I'm like, can you say something else? It's also obviously, I mean, edited. I'm sure there's a lot we don't get to see. But I am curious about if you can remember back in the pods, because we know, like, you know, maybe they just didn't show it and maybe you experienced it. But once you guys got out of the pods, the way Alex spoke, I was like, he asked himself a lot of questions while communicating to you. It's like, am I like this? I don't know. And usually when someone does that to me, that's them trying to like convince themselves of what they're saying. And I'm curious, did he speak that way in the pods and maybe we just didn't get to see it? Or was that a change up

after you guys got to meet each other in person? I think it. I think it. it is hard to think back. But I think like we were just yapping in the pods. I mean, people don't understand. Like, they showed very specific moments from our pods. And we are in there for like hours. And we talk about everything. So I'm sure there's moments where I'm just like yapping about nonsense and like he's also just doing the same. But in the pods, like, I love to listen to people. I love to ask questions so that they can talk about themselves. I think people like, they love to talk about themselves. And I want to learn about them. So I don't remember. in the pods being like, oh my God, land the plane, you know, like, what are we talking about?

We're going in circles. I don't really remember that. And then, like, even after I was like, I don't really remember being in that moment. I think I was just like, I like listening to him talk about himself and like his passions. And that's what you do when you're in love with someone, right? Like, you want them to talk about everything that they love. You want to learn what makes them tick. You want to learn the good, the bad, the ugly. And I guess I was just like letting him express himself because usually I'm the one that won't shut up. And it's very strange to see me on the other side of that when the camera's on. What was your reaction to watching the reality of the conversation between Alex and Brittany? Yeah, that was, I hadn't seen that. I didn't know about that conversation. I did know, like, his type is someone that looks like Brittany. And I think there's like a misconception that I'm like, how dare he go for Britney. But like, look at her.

Like she's a stunning woman. I said it in the pods with all the girls. I was like, if a man doesn't choose, like, choose me and he chooses one of these other girls, I'm like, he's making a good decision. Because all these women are strong. They're ambitious. They're beautiful inside and out. And I can't fault Alex for being like, I'm attracted to her. We all have, like, certain people and attributes that we look for.

However, it was like a little bit more flirty than I like to, like, watch. but I can't fault him for having a type. And Brittany's very attractive. She's beautiful. But I do think, like, for anyone on the show, if you're going to go onto a show where you're taking away the looks aspect, this isn't the show for you. And it kind of came across as like, oh, we're just playing this game. And I was like, this ain't, this isn't a game to me. Like, this is my life.

This is going to be my marriage. And I think maybe a different Netflix dating show would have been better if that's what you wanted. Well, you can't fault him for being attracted to Brittany. You can fault him for lying to your face. I mean, you were flat out like, did you have any flirty conversations? And he was like, did I flirt? I don't know. Did they take it as me flirting?

I don't know. Other people might think it's flirting, but I don't know. I definitely don't think it was flirting. But like, I don't know. You have to watch the tape. And then he's like, I just care about Brittany and Devont. It's like, that's not the conversation at all. Yeah.

It was definitely, and that's what I mean, like with the body language. and like seeing him kind of almost nervous answering my questions about that, I was like, what are you not telling me? And I think you can literally tell on my face, but I'm just like, okay, we're going to see where this goes. This is like the first time everybody is seeing everyone, meeting everybody. So I was like, I'm going to give him like some grace, you know, like, it's okay to be attracted to different people. For me, it's not realistic for me to be like, oh, he's never going to find another girl attractive other than me, especially since I'm not his normal type, but I just think there's a time in place for everything. And if he was feeling so strongly

that way, like, yeah, have a conversation with me. I'm not going to, like, scream and riot in the streets. Like, I know Britney's beautiful. So it was a little strange, but at the end of the day, like, she's beautiful. But if you are so picky, then different show. You spoke a lot about how hot you thought Alex is, was, and good for him for, I guess, being a beautiful guy. But I'm curious, when you saw him and you're like, oh my God, this guy's so hot, did that make you a little bit nervous? I just feel like obviously like there's pretty privilege, right? You know, if he's that good looking of a guy, it's hard to believe that he really would be open to not prioritizing looks.

And once you got out of the pods, I forgot what where it was. It was when you guys were still in Mexico, but he was like, looks are still really important part of a relationship. And it's like, yeah, we know, but this is love is blunt. line, you know, and it's kind of like, did you sign up to see if you could also emotionally connect with someone and hope that they're beautiful? Or were you open to ignoring the physical attributes as much as the rest of the cast seem to be? I was open to like anything. Anything this experiment through my way, I was like, I'm here for it. I was attracted to Alex. I am attracted

to Alex. He's a very good looking guy. I think when I saw him, I was just like, oh, I didn't even think about that. That's a really good question. I think I was just like, oh, he's good looking and he's a good person because we had all these conversations and it was like, you know, I felt for who he was as a person and what he was telling me the pods and things like that. It was icing on the cake that, oh, I'm actually really attracted to him as well. But I think like if he didn't look the way he did, I would have still felt the same way. And I, when I go into something, I put 110% into it. And, you know, if there's things we need to work through, there's things we need to work through, whether it's his looks, you know, if there's any other deal breakers that may have been broken.

There's things you always have to work through in a relationship. But I was going into this being like, looks don't matter. Like you can't think that looks matter because I think even Alex says it, you know, like after, I think he said like 35, looks go downhill. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm 34. I was like, you know, I'm not always going to have like the looks. You know, we're all aging. We all go through different phases. kids can bring changes. So I was like, I'm not always going to look this way. I can't expect him to be

picture perfect either. So looks don't really matter to me. And that's how I'm going into like any relationship with Alex, with anyone else. Like I just looks don't really matter to me anymore. I need someone who has a good heart and treats me well. I do have non-negotiables. Cheating and lying is one of two of them. I don't know. Those are the things that are important to me now, not looks. I want to talk about the sex conversation that you guys had an episode. Which one. Just going. Lots to unpack there.

But I'm curious. Have you watched that scene? I have unfortunately watched all my scenes. Yes. Okay. And with my eyes like, there's always like, it's always really interesting. You're in a very unique position because most of us, you know, in life, don't get to like literally watch the tape of conversations we had, right?

And sometimes we can watch it back to be like, oh, you know, I was kind of in this fight or flight mode. But like this person, they really seem to be. be trying to figure out ways to get out of this relationship. I'm not sure how you saw it and obviously you were there, but how did you interpret that conversation on like, I guess, like a higher level. We'll get into the weeds of like period sex and things like that. But I'm curious, watching it back, what do you think Alex's motivation in that conversation was? So which scene was it? Unfortunately, I have to ask that question. It started with him nitpicking about the fridge and stuff and then the period,

that conversation. The period sex. Moving to Florida. Moving to Florida. It was at the kitchen table. Yeah. Watching that back, it is strange. Like, I, I'm a cleaner.

I like, I love to clean. When I'm stressed, I clean. So I'm in this crazy experiment. Going to get married in like five minutes. And yeah, I'm a little stressed. So I'm going to clean. And my, like, the fridge, I just love it to look like I'm on MTV Cribs or something. So, yeah, I move the water bottles a little bit.

When it comes to like, the sexual talk there. I'm in my 30s. Like, you can touch me when I'm on my period. First of all, sorry, I know that's kind of weird to say. But it's just like a weird conversation to have with a grown adult. I'm like, do we need to take you back to like sex ad or something? Like, do you not know how the human body works? And can't fault him for that. But it was just a very, like, strange conversation to have. And thinking back, I was like, this will never air. Of course. It's aired. I was saying this to the team. It's just hard to imagine, especially when he was talking about, like not wanting to have kids as if that was like, of course, you know, it's just like he did,

he said a lot of things where it's like at first, it's like, of course that's a valid thing to say, but it's just like, I don't know if I really believe it, right? It's like, okay, you're not already have kids. No one wants you to, you know, and obviously you want to practice safe sex, but were you bringing this same energy, Alex, in your soccer playing days in college and your early 20s? There's condoms and things like that. Like, I mean, I think the, the, typical stereotype of men, it's like, if they really want something, they will, they will eliminate all excuses, you know? And, and, and, in Alex, in that conversation, like, every, I mean, it's just like, honestly, the fact that you felt the need, even to explain to our audience about you cleaning,

like, you know, and I'm saying, like, the fact that he's going to make a big deal about, like, the water bottle being on the second shelf instead of the first one, it's like, really, Alex? You know, it's like every part of that conversation was a him trying to, to like poke holes in the relationship or find the cracks. And then he finally got into this whole like period sex thing, which is, was kind of a banana's conversation. Yeah, I'm not going to lie. That conversation watching it back felt like an eternity. So with Alex, I was just kind of like watching it back. I was like, are you looking for a way out of this? Because we had those conversations. Like I said, in the pods, you talk about everything. There's not like one stone unturned. So we did

talk about like I'm not on birth control and like I don't want those hormones in my body just because I'm much more like holistic in that approach. And what was not shown as like, you know, I had this ex-boyfriend for five or six years. I track my ovulation. Like I'm a woman. Like I do these things to take care of my body. So it was just like an out of pocket comment. And I was just like, where is this coming from? But at that point, after Mexico, it was definitely like a switch for him. I was like, are you attracted to me? And I even, I think I even say it. I'm like, you know, we had this conversation. I'm not your normal type. Is that in the back of your mind? And I think he also kind of just brushes it under the carpet again. And I'm like, okay, everything's good.

Let's go golf. The way that he offered to have a shared tracking app so that he could also know, like, he doesn't believe you. Like, you're not going to, like, it was the most wild. Yeah, like, I'm sorry, you want to share my tracking app? That's insane. Like in that, I mean, I know you're like, that's not necessary. But in that moment where you like, this is insane. It was because he kind of goes into like, oh, you're not initiating. And I'm like, well, a woman wants to feel wanted. And if your body language is telling me something different, I'm not going to just like smother you with my love. And the shared tracker, I'm going to give him some like props here. Like he was trying. But I'm like, no, you don't need to know my ovulation schedule or my period schedule. I guess in what way was he trying? It was some kind of compromise. He's putting something on him to take those actions to show like maybe he does care and he wants to make sure we're having safe sex and not having a baby.

And I'm not ready for kids. Like I don't know if he was thinking I was trying to trap him. I'm not ready. He travels a lot. I'm like, that'll be impossible, not impossible, but very hard. If we have babies running around, we can't go overseas. And like, it's just a lot more challenging. So I was like, I don't want babies either.

So I'm not trying to trap you. Did he have like almost a scare in earlier relationships? I don't think he got anyone, oopsie, a scare or whatever. The conversation we have that shown is basically all that I know about any exes he may have. He wasn't very open about that. And I think even like with my friends, he was just like, I don't really like to talk about the past. And I'm kind of like the opposite. I'm like, the past has made me who I am. The past is why I am the way I am going into any relationship in the future. So I'm very open about it. And I hope that my story can like relate to someone, I guess, or like it helps someone understand where they may be out in a relationship. But with Alex, I was like, he was an accident himself. So maybe he's just not trying. to have that repeated. And it's scary. I get it. Like if a girl's like, I'm not on birth control.

It's probably scary for a guy. But I was very open about that. And I also like, it wasn't really shown. But in that conversation, I do go back to my last relationship. And I was like, I was in this relationship for five years. I had no problems. And what's also not shown is that my ex actually got a girl pregnant like a few months after we had broken up. So I was like, it's not me. I wasn't the problem. When you said so when I'm on my period, I'm like the play. I mean, like, did he ever answer that of like, oh my God. I mean, like, was that true when you were on your period?

He was just like not going to be intimate with you. I guess. And I know, like it's probably weird for some guys, I guess. But no, Ashley, like, I'm a woman. Like, I don't care. We are adults. That is part of life. I think they only care when they choose to care.

Yeah, I think if anything, like, as a woman, like, we're actually more horny on our periods. So not to feed into my over-sexualized persona on the show. But if anything, I'm like, oh, touch me more. She's wild that he's like a grown adult. I'm curious. What did you think about his relationship slash situation that was potentially overlapped him coming on the show? Yeah.

I didn't love that. I remember that conversation. And I just, like I said, I ask a lot of questions. and you can kind of tell on my face in that conversation. I was like, did I just, did I just catch you? Lying about possibly cheating, which are, again, two of my non-negotiables. Like, you cheat, you lie, I'm out. Especially, like, maybe they were, like, little white lies to some people.

So watching that, they may be like, she's, like, overreacting. But, again, I'm finding a husband. I'm about to marry this man and we're creating a foundation based off of a lie. and I'm going to dig deeper into that. If it's honest, then tell me the truth. If it's not, we need to have a different conversation. And he kind of goes into that, the why behind, you know, why he went to Austin to see his ex. And, you know, it cleared things up.

But I've been cheated on so much in the past where I was like, it was in the back of my mind for sure. And I think you could kind of see it on my face. I am curious. You mentioned that you feel like you have a sexualized personality on the show. I remember you mentioning the Dragon Smut, which I thought was relatable and hilarious. Do you think that's just the way the show is portraying you? So people have been asking me that since the first drop. That is like very much me.

I do say these things. Like I am a very like sexual person. My friends will all tell you that. I'm very confident. And I think that's important for every woman to have. And I think it's okay to share that. I don't love that it was like everything. Everything I said was like a little middle school boy joking around. But I do very much like have those conversations with my girlfriends. I do kind of want the audience to see a little bit more of me. You meet my family and they are everything to me. My family is my brother's my best friend. My dad, I'm literally his twin copy paste. And my mom and dad's relationship is. kind of the foundation that I want for my relationship. My family is what I build my morals,

my ethics, anything I value is built around them. So I kind of wish that was shown a little bit more in the pods because me and Alex really did relate a lot on that, especially when it came to our grandparents. I was so close with my grandfather and my grandmother. And Alex obviously had a very good relationship with his as well. So I kind of wish they showed that a little bit more, just like the first episode, me being like, sex. It's the curse of reality TV. We often get siloed into very specific characters. I knew I was, I mean, I knew what I was doing.

I was on camera. There's a thousand cameras around me all the time. I should have, you know, shut my mouth. You did great. Thanks. I'm curious, when you were in the pods, you will, you know, you've now said that you've typically gone for guys that were really attractive, and that was maybe the more important thing, even though you knew deep down.

there was deeper levels to it. When you were in the pods and you were talking to him, did you get the sense that he was a hot guy? Like, I'm curious if you had this inkling of like, oh, he's a soccer player, like the way he talks. Like he feels like my typical type. I have a good feeling that he's going to be really good looking. And did that steer your decision at all? And I'm also curious, did you also have this, you know, when you get into a relationship and you just like know one way or the other? Did you feel any of that in the pods?

And did it change once you got? out. So, like, it's so weird. You're literally staring at like this orange wall. Like, I think I say that you're hypnotized almost. Um, Alex does have like a very like sultry voice. And I think that's why I just like let him talk so much and it's just him constantly talking and talking. Um, but he does have like a very good voice. Um, soccer player, I was like, that could go either way. I mean, he could be tall. He could be short. I didn't really know what to expect with that. But I had, I had no idea like what he was going to look like. I just. just thought he would, I thought he was brunette. I thought he was going to be definitely tan,

because he's an athlete. I don't know. He's outside playing soccer, lived all these other places. But that was really all I could see. And I remember thinking about it when I was in the pods. I'm like, all I see is like this like mannequin almost and the face is just like a bright light. And I could only really see that with Alex. And I kind of say it. He was like my best friend in the pods. We just, we talked. And every time I was going into the pods, I was like, I want it to be Alex. But I didn't really like, I don't know. I mean, when you're doing your reveal, that was probably the most nerve-wracking point of this entire experience. Because I was like, what am I doing?

It was almost like the hunger games when like Katness comes up and she's like disoriented. They're like strobing this light behind you and you just like don't know what's going to be on the other side of this. I was getting all these Instagrams or it's like the cringiest reveals. And I was like, please don't be me. But you just don't really know what to expect. And I guess that's the easiest way for me to put it. into words. That makes sense. Well, before we let you go, what is your opinion on some of the other couples? So, Christine and Vic's story, I always, like, I was dying to see, like, the behind

in the pods, like their conversations, dying to see their reveal. So I think that's the one that I was most, like, eating my popcorn, like, tuning into. And I just, like, really love watching their story. They're just like two very pure souls. I love watching their love story. That's awesome. Ashley, really appreciate you taking the time. Good luck the rest of the way. Very excited to see how everything unfolds for you. And yeah, just thanks for taking the time. Yes, of course. Thank you so much. All right. Thanks, Ashley. Okay, bye. When you're in the level up mindset for your business, it's wild. How much basic stuff matters.

Like customer, servers, or just making sure you do not miss any call. when it comes to your customers. I mean, think about it. Anytime you've been looking for an electrician or plumber or any type of service and they didn't answer immediately, what did you do? You just moved on to the next. That was a missed opportunity for the first few people that you called. Which is why today's episode is sponsored by Quo, spell QUO, the modern alternative to run your business communications. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews built on how modern teams work. That's why more than 90,000 businesses from solo operators to growing teams rely on Quo to stay connected. professional and consistently reachable. Quo works wherever you are right from an app on your phone or computer and lets you keep your existing number add new numbers or teammates in minutes. Sink your CRM and rely on seamless routing and call flows as your business scales. Your entire team can handle calls and texts from a one shared number. No more missed messages or disconnected conversations. Everyone sees full thread making replies faster and customers feel generally cared for. Quote isn't just a phone system. It's a smart system. Quos A

I automatically log calls, generate summaries, and highlights next steps, so nothing gets lost. It's easy, text calls, voicemails, transcripts, and contact details all live in one clean views. If you are a team of one or team of many, let Quo help you take your business to the next level. Make this the year where no opportunities and no customers slip away. Try Quo for free, plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com slash V-I-A-L-L. That is Quo-C-U-O dot com slash V-I-A-L-L. Quote, no miss calls, no miss customers.

Okay, I need to talk about my outfit for a second. Because this is not your average sports merch. I'm wearing hype and vice, reping the Milwaukee Bucks, and I feel like I'm giving courtside batty. It not only looks good, but the quality feels top tier. It really does. What I love is that hype and vice makes officially licensed NBA pieces that actually feel up to date.

Think oversized mock neck, crunecks, vintage baby t's, mini skirts, cropped jerseys, cool varsity jackets, stuff you'd wear even if you weren't going to a game. This is not your basic t-shirt merch, not at all. Exactly. It's for the sports fans who care about style and their team. You can wear it to the arena, out and about, really anywhere, and it's not just NBA either. Nope, they have colleges, MLS, and they're also adding NHL. So no matter who you root for, there is something for every fan.

Plus, it's perfect if you're dressing as a couple, even if you're on rival teams just like us right now. So if you're over basic fan gear and just want something that feels elevated, check out Hype and Vice. Go to hypeinvice.com and shop your team. Use code V-I-A-A-L-L-5 for 15% off your next order. That's V-I-A-L-L-5 for 15% off your next order. All you sports fans out there, you know, there's so many, like, just crappy websites to get your favorite merch.

But hype and vice has high-quality jackets and other items that you're absolutely to love when you want to support your favorite team. That's hype and vice.com. They're changing the game in sports apparel. All right. Back to the show. Have you heard of Goldbelly? Well, if not, listen up. It's an amazing site that we order from all the time where you can get the most iconic famous foods from restaurants all across the U.S. and they will ship it across the country directly to your door, whether it's deep dish pizza from Chicago, like places like Lul Malnadi or New York's famous cheesecake from juniors are our favorite Peter Lugar, where Natalie and I have mentioned it as one of our first dates we ever had. And every now and then we like to reminisce celebrate our relationship

without having to go to Brooklyn. And you could do that as well. If you want to maybe be nostalgic or impress your friends at the next dinner party, look to Goldbelly for a game-changing experience. It really seems unbelievable. It almost like when we heard about Goldbelly, it seemed too good to be true. But then we tried it. And truly, famous restaurants across this country will show up to your front door and bring you experience you'll never forget. So if you are looking at the perfect gift or want to impress your friends and family with an epic meal the next time you host, go to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code V-I-A-L.L, that is goldbelly.com code V-I-A-L for 20% off your first order.

Well, I'm interested to see how their relationship unfolds. Up next, a very riveting and honest conversation with Jay Manuel talking about reality check America's Next Top Model documentary streaming now on Netflix. It's number one on Netflix and everyone is talking about it. And we have Jay himself to give us his very honest interpretation of all things regarding America's Next Top Model and the doc. Jay, welcome to the show. We are so grateful to have you. Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh. I mean, it has been definitely a week and I'm sure you guys got tons of questions. Yes, yes, we do. And I can only imagine, I guess maybe my first question is I've never been a part of a doc, and I've certainly watched a lot, and it often feels like when you watch it back, you ask yourself,

but yeah, I wonder what their expectations were when they were sitting down filming this versus how that doc came together. I'm curious, what were your expectations and has it met those expectations now that you're watching it unfold? Wow. So first of all, yes, I've done a lot of television and I've hosted a lot of live TV in my career, but never been in a dock myself. So it is certainly strange when you see the finished piece for the first time. But, you know, my expectations going into this ultimately were, you know, I'm not here to change any minds. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I just wanted to answer the questions that were posed to me. And I was the geek in the room when Netflix told us early on that they were bringing in Moore and Daniel.

and I just said, wait, are you serious? Because I'm that person who knows everybody who works on docs. And I was already a fan of all their work. And I was waiting for Manhunt Osama bin Laden to come out. So I thought, oh my God, these people are known for their journalistic integrity. So I already felt safe in that moment. So as soon as I knew it was them and the first time we met, I said, you know, I'm excited about this. Like, I feel like this is a safe space.

So when I sat down to start my interview, I wanted to underscore that there are no questions off the table. They can ask me anything about how I felt back to my childhood, which we did talk about. And I sat in a very reflective, present state when I did those hours and hours and hours of interviews. I imagine it felt a little therapeutic. Yeah, you know, yes and no. I'm going to tell you why. I felt like I had done a lot of, I had worked through a lot of my, I guess, just the frustration and a lot of the emotions when I was writing my novel, which came out a few years before. And then I was doing press for that.

And that's when I noticed what was bubbling up. And I thought, you know what? The work isn't done. I thought I had done the work to heal some of these issues. and I guess, you know, the things that I had internalized from being on that show, that I then stepped away and did more work and actually worked with a therapist. So by the time I sat down here, it didn't, you know, things weren't coming up for me in a super emotional way. And especially when I was speaking about my relationship with Tyra.

But when watching the doc back, that was a different experience the first time. because, you know, seeing the Shandy story play out, someone who was my favorite that season, who I thought was going to win. And I'm lucky that I've been able to see Shandy since the show. And she knows how I feel about her. And I always felt that she was unfairly positioned in the show. So to see it play, especially at the top of episode two in reality check, I mean, I started bawling. So watching it was more emotional for me than actually sitting in my interviews. Oh, wow.

Yeah, I can only imagine. The internet has really taken to like the lack of accountability that we've seen from Tyra. And I guess it was all like, oh, maybe this is when we'll get that. And we still didn't really get that. Did you see any accountability from Tyra in the documentary? The words I'll use, which maybe will, because I'm probably the one person in that entire documentary that knows an extremely personal side to her more so than Ken Mock. Unfortunately, I think what people saw was a very prepared television Tyra.

I know the real Tyra. And we've had a lot of time where she's spending, you know, she says it in the dock, sleeping over at my house. She hates hotels. So when she was in New York, she was at my home. Or if I was in L.A., I was at her home. And we've talked a lot. And there's so much that still to this day,

I keep in confidence and I will forever keep in confidence. And I would not betray that even in the documentary. But there were no questions asked of me to, you know, to kind of bring those things forward. But I say all this to say, there is a very strong woman who has been through a lot. I mean, as a black model in this industry that historically has treated black models poorly, underpaid them, made them feel less than. And aside from that, her own personal wounds, you know, if she had brought that vulnerability and the person that I know to the table, I think the world would have been much more receptive to the human being sitting in the documentary. But what we got was her armor.

Honestly, that's what you got, because I know her. And the only time you see her break that is when Moore, one of the directors, pushes the armor. pushes the envelope and says and asks her straight up, you know, is maybe now a good time to talk about what happened with you and Jay? And you see her break. That's the only time she breaks in the dock. And I wish she would have been able to speak to those girls because Danny's voice, Kenya's voice, Shandy, all of their voices were, you know, I think this would have been an amazing opportunity for her to really speak to these powerful women who chose to come forward. And she didn't. Do you think this is kind of like maybe the old school person in her that maybe just comes from different generation of celebrity? I mean, so much about this documentary obviously discusses just how reality TV was made back in the day versus how we are approaching it today. But yeah, do you feel like it just comes from that or do you think it's deeper than that?

Oh, it's absolutely deeper than that. and it's absolutely calculated. She knows better. She knows the industry. She knows how it works. And for people who know Ken and Tyra, of course, the amount of the producers that worked on this show,

and many of them, for fear of losing their current jobs, could not come forward and speak part of the documentary. But, you know, they have all contacted myself, Nigel, especially because Nigel, I were talking about this.

And, you know, everyone who knows them, you can tell, you know, Ken and Tyra prepared themselves together, but were interviewed separately on separate days, but they were absolutely aligned, whereas everyone else in the documentary, myself, Nigel and Jay, and I speak to us as being, you know, on the show versus the contestants, we did not. We went in and we just answered the questions that were asked of us, and that was that. And we didn't speak about it beforehand. We talked a bit about it after we did the interviews, like, what did they ask you, you know, that kind of thing. But they were coordinated and

you can see it. Speaking of when she was asked about you, she said, like, that is for a phone call, you know, that's a private conversation. Have you had the chance to have that phone call with her yet? What do you think? I think probably not. See, I don't even have to answer the questions, honestly. Everyone's asked that. I mean, no, I've not had the phone call. My number is the same. She has my number. I didn't. expect it. I kind of chuckled when I heard it in the dock, you know, and for her saying, oh, I'm not going to do that here. It's a phone call. He's a special man. You know, what's unfortunate is, you know, even in the documentary, we play, you know, we talk about this email that I wrote

in her response. You know, the producers had to see that email. And it was very short. You know, I did have this packed with her. She didn't want to ever go through other people. And I wrote her the most lovely email of gratitude. And I was happy that I was to help her realize her dream with this show. She'd always encouraged me to branch out. By then, I was an e-correspondent on doing live events, and I had another show. And so I said to her, I'm going to focus on those other things. And I'm here if you ever need me. And so there really, there was no fight. There was no falling out. So I think she just can't answer this question because her behavior is somewhat reprehensible. I mean, you know, When I was forced back ultimately, they asked me, you know, the timeline in the dock, if you want the real answer, because it's not super clear.

They make it seem like I left and then they lurched me back. There was a little more time there. What happened was when I wrote that email, they were three months out of production for cycle nine. So I was letting them know immediately I wasn't coming back. And so I didn't hear from anyone. It wasn't just her. I heard from no one. Can mock, not a producer, not alone.

no one. And I thought, okay, I'm just going to move on with my life. I knew they were screen testing people to replace me because I knew who was going in for these tests. And then when I was on vacation, which they talk about in the dock, that was actually two and a half weeks outside of them starting production. That's when they reached out. And that's when they said, can we have you come back and do this one cycle as a favor? And they asked nicely through their business affairs from the parent network. And the honest answer was, because I was now contracted with E and the sister network with another show, I had then gone on board or had agreed to take part in another project they wanted me to be a co-host on. And so my lawyer went back, said,

unfortunately, Jay has another commitment. Now, you all know, and you all work in entertainment, how that is. That's often a game a lot of people play. Oh, I'm committed. The fact is I was truly committed. They thought it was a game, so then that's when the threats came, and they thought I was playing a game, and the threat. And again, they didn't use the word blacklist. I want to be clear. But it was heavily implied I would no longer be hired for anything on the parent network or any of their channels, which was one of the big ones that Les Mumbez ran. And once that, you know, people don't understand.

And I was in my 30s. My career trajectory was up. You know, when someone tells you that, they strike the fear of God in you. And I was petrified. So I said yes. E understood that I could not, I had to back out of a commitment. I went back. And that's when I found out on the first day of set that not only someone who I was close with, who was also the executive producer of the show, chose to fully ignore. me. That's why when the cameras rolled, I didn't even know what to do. And so the first time I speak, it's her trying to get me to speak because clearly I was just an utter shock. Yeah. And then the big question, it might be your next question, so sorry, Nick, if I'm jumping in. The next question that everyone asks, they're like, okay, so that was cycle nine, but didn't you leave at 18? Yes. What happened was I made my way through cycle nine, which was horrible, but ultimately they asked me what I consider coming back if they promised me a safe environment and I wouldn't have to produce the photo shoots, just produce the final runways because

that is a beast unto itself and I could do that for them. And the answer simply is, you know, I had already felt the ramifications of saying no. And at that time in my life, I was really struggling with being a people-pleaser and making everyone happy. And I couldn't draw clear boundaries for myself. And I thought, I'll go back. I'll do the right thing. I'll cure everything. Everyone will be happy. But now as I sit here with years past in my own therapy and my own work, I realized you can't fix misalignment. But I didn't know that then. Yeah, it's interesting. You kind of emphasized they didn't say the word blacklist, but it sounds like they strongly implied that you would be burning bridges, so to speak, right?

Because, like, you know, it's ultimately the same thing, but burning bridges is almost implied that we do that versus someone saying, I'm going to blacklist you. Yeah. And they put it on you. Yeah. They put it on you. Yeah. I'm curious, another thing that's being heavily talked about is we come to find that

Ms. Jay had a stroke and obviously very devastating, but Tyra did not visit and has not. And, you know, whether it's not visiting Miss Jay, not having that conversation with you, I'm sure you must have thought at times or at length. I mean, you seem to know her as well as anyone else, better than anyone else. And there's, you know, listen, I think it's quick online. People like to throw out diagnosis and names for why people behave a certain way, you know. Why do you think, you know, they say time heals all wounds. Like, why do you think she has in no way. made any attempt to mend those relationships or at least even not even if it's to be friends again but to just say hey i'm sorry if in any you know i'm sorry you at one point meant so much to me and now our relationship is so strained i just want to acknowledge like she just hasn't done any of that yeah why do you think she hasn't i'll try and i'll try and answer all of that starting with the miss jay of it all you know miss jay when he first woke up out of his coma, you know, I knew his niece, who is a nurse, who really ultimately saved his life to get the

paramedics and ultimately get him to the hospital. But coming out of the coma and he could not speak, but ultimately they were communicating with him and she called me and said, you know, my uncle wants to make sure that he sees you, can you come to the hospital? He had just woken up. So I was like, absolutely, you know, when do you want me there? I was three days later and she said, you'll have a lone time with him. And that first day, I spent four hours with Jay and he was extremely frail and couldn't barely speak. And, you know, obviously had lost use of the entire right side of his body. I didn't know if I was ever going to see him again, to be honest with you.

Because he had a large pocket of blood still on the brain. They could not drain for fear that it could kill him. And so felt so important for me to be there because who Jay was. even through all our craziness and our antics and the show and the years and all that stuff, that was what he means to me is he gave me the permission when we first went on TV together and I only knew of Jay, but I only met him on the show in season one. And I knew at that time there was no representation on TV when it comes to the LGBTQ plus community. And Jay being very flamboyant and out there and me being openly gay, but not on television.

I thought, you know what, I can lean on him. And together going forward, I was thinking, like, you know, they can't attack us, but, like, we can do this together. And this was pre-queer eye, you know, and so for me, I will forever be indebted to him in some way because it's just like, he allowed me to be authentically myself and TV at a time when people were not used to seeing us on television. So start with that. That's why I went. What's not even clear in the documentary, and I'll clear it up right here, you know, he had the stroke in 2022. Ken Mock actually reached out that year to Jay, which was shocking. I remember when Jay called me from the hospital, said, guess who reached out?

I was like, wow, that, you know, Ken went up a notch in my book, not Tyra. And that message that he references that he got a message from her, that came only recently. And she's in New York all the time. So the fact that a couple of years even went by, I mean, he was in the hospital a year and a half and just zero. That's really disappointing. It was hurtful. I felt Jay's pain.

I hurt for him, truly. You know her as well as anyone, you know. Oh, why do you think she does this? Yeah, like why? It's just, we can all be stubborn. It's just this, to your point, it just seems like really hard to comprehend and the lack of, I guess, humanity and her behavior.

You know, and that's the right word, to be honest with you. We, outside of all of the craziness and television and the egos, everything put aside, you know, we can be human with one another and express our humanness, really. That's the part that I think is most shocking. You know, when it comes to me, I've let it go. I don't think I would ever get a call from her. And that's fine. That's fine. I'm fine with it, truly. I never want to ever put a label on people. And a lot of people know that I'm friends with Dr. Romney who speaks about, you know, narcissistic abuse, etc. And I know a lot of people are throwing that word around. I would never do that. I'm not a licensed psychologist. But what I do know is that Tyra operates from an extreme level of pain. What no one's really calling out is there's a thing. She would go on the Oprah show, and I was with her at the time, where she would go on the opera show and do these, you know, different themed episodes, sometimes makeovers, but they've

talked about some heavier topics. She did a show on bullying, and she said her brother used to bully her, and her brother, Devin was sitting right there with her, and her mother was in the audience. No one's pulling up this clip, but she talks about how her brother bullied her, and ultimately she went into high school and became a bully herself. It comes to her own words. And a lot of that behavior comes from a place of pain. I know Tyra holds a lot of pain. That's why I honestly connected with her because who I am, I always feel like I have to try, you know, support people around their things, their issues. All my friends know that. I, but I've ultimately realized as an adult, That's not my job.

So to do that. But I connected with her on that place. And I really do think if she shares truly what she struggles with, people would understand her more. But all she does is lock it away in a vault. That makes sense. You're so generous with your time, Jack. I really appreciate it. I'm curious for you, like, just try to make it more positive as a show.

Obviously, so much of this documentary is kind of poking holes and how. this show was made. But what positive things do you think America's next top model did for fashion, for the industry of modeling as a whole? And did we learn some at least good lessons of what not to do going forward? There is a lot of good that came out of America's next top model. And again, Tyra stepped into that with the best of attention. She wanted to find the next top model, but she really wanted to show the behind the scenes of the industry, of which she really was in the trenches and the behavior and how she was treated as a model would shock people.

And the industry at that time, you know, a lot of people, you know, got to know me from being on that show. That's a positive. That's why everything about this show for me ultimately allowed me to kind of grow in other directions. But I had a whole career in the industry, well, before the show came about. Like, I worked with all of the greats from, you know, Richard Avedon to Annie Leibovitz, Scovulo, shooting for Vogue and major ad campaigns. It was an amazing opportunity to kind of bring that experience to a show and start talking about what it is like

from behind the scenes. And the industry has changed. The industry cannot get away with the behavior that it was historically known for. And the way they would treat girls, coming in with their portfolio flipping through, picking them apart. Yeah, no. Just that kind of insensitivity doesn't exist on that level anymore. And that's mostly because, you know, everyone has one of these. They got one of these. Everything is recorded and out there. And top model really opened up this dialogue of what was being said to these girls and not just the models, but hair, makeup, anyone who's a part of the industry was experiencing that culture. So it has shifted quite a bit. Was it for you watching the photo shoot with Kenya back where she spoke up about, hey, this guy's making me uncomfortable?

You know, watching it play in the dock, I think it was so important to have Kenya sit there and express how she felt through that. I love that she was part of the dock. I remember that day, and I even remember watching the episode for the first time, I didn't know what was going on in hair and makeup, first of all, that he was hitting on her because I was setting up a show. and then shooting with the other girls. So I didn't know what was going on. And again, in shooting the other girls, they did the exact same shoot. These three guys danced around them. They were touching the girls and dancing.

And, you know, I had shot many shoots even with Tyra that were very sexy and or kind of creating a very intimate situation. So I'm thinking, you know, we're just creating this illusion. However, when Keenya stopped the photo shoot, my response, which I stand up to address her, I'm like, what's going on? I wish I could have drawn a better boundary and with production, meaning the production of Top Model covering this, because that was ultimately my job there to create a safe space for her, and I should have understood a little more of what was going on. However, at that time, I always felt this allegiance to production.

They were constantly poking in my ear. Like, I couldn't just love girls on set. I had to have a negative. If I loved someone's performance, they literally forced me, to say something negative or that they had to work on. And so I was looking around like, you can even see it in the episode. I'm looking around like, because there's a director on set. I'm like, do I let this happen?

Do I stop it? Like, what do I do? I was all equally confused in the moment because I couldn't see anything that seemed untoward. However, I should have taken her at her word. And I should have drawn that line with production. and then if production or the powers that be, Ken and Tyra had gotten upset with me for stopping and breaking the fourth wall of the reality show,

I should have taken my lashes because ultimately the most important person was Kenya in that moment and her comfortability. And yes, I wish I could have drawn that line. Thank you for saying that and acknowledging that, you know, I think, which is like, I think watching this doc, what I think a lot of the fans who are watching it through this lens are just kind of hoping. And so it's been really great to hear you.

You also were vocal about feeling very uncomfortable with the race swap photo shoot, but ultimately still did it. What were those conversations kind of backstage behind the scenes that you had with production about that? So up until cycle four, literally the photo shoot creative, it was me and Tyra having a private conversation, usually lying around in my house, and I would say, okay, what shoot have you done?

Because we wanted it rooted in something she has done. And that's what we did in those early cycles. By the time we go to season four, because in cycle three, cover girl came on board, and that was myself and our co-EP pitching them to bring them on as one of the sponsors. So now the stakes were higher in cycle four.

So the photo shoot creative was a me, with a group of people, Ken, Tyra, myself, the co-EPs, the line producer, two line producers, and we sat there and we talked through the creative. So the first time I heard about this race-swapping photo shoot was in a meeting, and Tyra brought it up and she explained why she wanted to do it, and it was for the empowerment of, for women of color. I'll be honest with you, Ken Mock's reaction initially was like, oh my God, do you want to go there? He was equally as shocked, but only he could really speak to her about it.

Now, as much as she valued my opinion, I wouldn't dare put her on the spot in a work environment. But walking out of that meeting, I immediately pulled my co-EP at the time, Anthony Dominiiichi, and I said to him, there is no way I can do this shoot. Can you please go to Ken and Tyra separately and say, we're going to write in a storyline where I'm not there. because as I mentioned in the dock, and I'm glad it made there. A lot of people assumed by my last name, I'm Spanish, but I'm actually biracial. My parents are from South Africa. My extended family is in South Africa. And my parents grew up under apartheid.

And I just like, the thought of that we are going to switch races and paint white models to look black, I just could not comprehend how I could stand there and deliver this. And I thought if there was a shoot Tyra could show up on and stand next to me and deliver that creative with, it would be that. But she said no. Then I had, there was another meeting. It was Ken, Tyra, Anthony Dominici, and myself. And Tyra swore up and down. She was, Jay, you will not wear this. I will clearly state in judging that this was my idea and why I am doing this. But you have to go to work. It was not a choice. You have to show up. And you have to. to do your job. I thought about calling in sick that day, just so you know. But there were no sick

days on Top Model, and I knew I would get in a lot of trouble, so I went, and I was extremely uncomfortable. But what reporters cut out is if you end that photo shoot, right after the photo shoot, it goes right into judging. Tyra opens the judging, clearly stating this was my idea. I wanted to do this for the empowerment of women of color. But every journalist, Every clip that gets run everywhere doesn't include Tyra's explanation, which is six minutes later, roughly. But I'm the one standing there delivering that creative. So it just followed me. I've had people write me.

You know, you're disgusting. You wanted to, you know, paint women black and blah, blah, blah. But no one knows the real story. They don't know what I went through and kind of that hell I went through. Man. Wow. A lot of last question, and then we can let you go. A lot of people...

Good. I'm out of here. No, I'm good. We can keep talking. I do have a couple more. On the lighter side, on the lighter side. Okay. A lot of people, obviously, are seeing Tyra not take this accountability, kind of say, like, oh, I wasn't in charge there. You know, I'm not the head of creative there.

And then when the credits roll, it's executive producer, Tiber Banks. You know, and it's like, clearly you do have a lot of control. Why not just say that? Well, my response, actually, is the receipts are in the dock. And all the kids online, which I am surprised, have clipped it together appropriately. They're doing their own investigative journalism, which I love. You know, in the dock, we see Tira on her talk show, forcing Shandy to watch this clip. that she says she does not want to watch.

And we're talking about sexual assault ultimately and she's forcing her to watch it. That in itself is a whole other show. And then she brings Shandy back a second time to watch it. And so I believe in the documentary they show both clips of Tyra's talk show. If not, the kids online have put all the clips together. Where Tyra specifically says, and her own words on her own talk show,

I've watched this a thousand times. I was in the editing room editing this scene. Blah, blah, blah. Her own words have incriminated her and everyone can see it. So I don't have to say it. I don't have to confirm it. Her own words ultimately confirms because I was there. She was involved heavily with the edits with Ken.

And so much so that that episode, Tyra was in New York. And at that time, you know, they would send physical screeners. Tyra was at my home. No one knows this, by the way, because no one's asked me this. So you guys are getting the scoop. I actually screened that episode with Shandy with Tyra for the first time, the final edit, of the locked episode that was going to air. We watched it and she approved it and it was locked.

Then the Super Bowl happened that weekend with Janet Jackson and Justin Timberley. And immediately there was a, you know, clamp down because that was also on CBS and that's our parent company. And they were like, we're changing. Immediately we're clamping down. And they forced Ken and Tyra to re-edit the episode. And that's what people don't know. What was originally cut for that episode was worse. And so what you guys actually saw was the re-edited version.

But again, Tyra's own words on her own talk show. I've watched it a thousand times. I was in the room editing that scene. You can hear the words. from her mouth. And everyone is playing that clip now. And it's unfortunate then that Tyra probably forgot. She said this on her talk show. And so, you know, she's sitting there. And even when she starts off like, Shandy, hmm, Shandy, yeah, like that she knows exactly who. Yeah, when they asked, they were like, can we talk about the Shandy story? And she was like, they're like, do you remember? And she's like, I think so. It's like, it's just so heartbreaking.

Yeah. One more question about Tyra. And then recently, I don't know if it was after or right before the doc came out, Tyra announced that America's Next Top Model is coming back. Or maybe it's already in production. Do you know that to be true? Well, I know that Tyra loves to speak things into existence. She did it with America's Next Top Model Cycle 1.

My understanding is how the press started that story. the week before the doc came out because the press were able to screen the entire episode for the interviews that we were all doing. Sorry, the entire documentary. So obviously Tyra says it in the dock. So that kind of line of Tyra's bringing back 25 ran a few days before from the dock. It wasn't a confirmation is my understanding. What I do know for a fact, because I know who she met with, I'll say that. She's trying to pitch it right now, as in the last few weeks.

She thought, oh, on the heels of Netflix and I'll pitch it and someone. But is it in production? Oh, absolutely not. That's not in production. Would you participate in the show if it were to come back? What do you think? I love saying that to you. I know.

You do. First of all, I will be honest with you. I think I would be the absolute last phone call that they, They would ever, if they were in charge of the show, I know Nigel feels that strongly, that the only way they could do it is if the three of us were there. You know, I, even as a producer myself, because I've produced on other things,

and I was a producer initially on this show, the only way I would be able to come back from even just a production standpoint is I would have to fairly produce my shoots if I went back in the same role. and actually, you know, hand forward, you know, the girls' best shots and let them duke it out in that regard, you know, in a fair way. You mean, even after I had gone back after that cycle nine and I wasn't producing anymore, you know, I had to still select 25 photos for Tire to look at. And then Taira just wanted to look at all of the film now because I'm there, I see it all. So the girls, they suspected the worst, you know, bad photos were being selected for them.

I can confirm that. Absolutely. They were doing it for storyline in those later seasons. They would pick horrible photos and the girls had better photos in their film. For sure.

For sure. There is, I guess, another documentary coming out on E-Mate Hulu. I know Lisa is involved in it. I don't remember exactly what cycle she's on.

What do you, I mean, what do you think of that? I don't know anything about it at all. My understanding is it's like a one hour piece part of a series. Lisa has really struggled with a lot of, again, the blowback from fans and what people

have said to her face in the streets, which is horrible. And I do believe, you know, and there are other girls involved in this. You know, people should have their voices heard. I just always encourage people to kind of speak their truth and not tear down because truth leads, you know, and that's what rises up. And, you know, even within my interviews and even sitting and talking with you guys, you know, I don't believe Tyra should be vilified. I think we should have a conversation. And this is not an opportunity to tear down anyone. I just hope that, because their stories are so valid, I just hope that that documentary handles their stories with

care and doesn't turn it into something salacious and tear-downish, because ultimately they won't wear that well, you know? I guess what you and Nigel and Ms. Jay brought to this documentary was just, I guess, grace in a way to say, you know, yes, we were involved in this. Yes, there were moments that are regretful. There's probably a lot of explanations of why some of this went, why this happened, you know, so many decision makers. But, you know, I think people went in a lot of its fans wanting to like feel good about it you know and wanting to feel good about you guys because I think so many fans truly loved all of you who made this show and I think that's where the frustration comes with Tyra where it's like really you know like you know it's like that's that's what

you gave because I don't think a lot of people went in wanting to like chastise any of you and even Tyra and I think they were just hoping for you know a little humanity and a little grace on her part Yeah, and it really is unfortunate because, again, like I said, I think if Tyra had brought the vulnerable woman that I know and that I've had those conversations with, there is that beautiful person inside underneath all of that pain. I can tell you that. Trust me, I just wish she'd shared it with everybody. Yeah. You guys kind of covered it, but I was just kind of thinking it's really interesting how we watched the show. Like I watched it growing up, huge fan. and you don't really realize how it impacts you. And then obviously people started rewatching it in 2020. I'm curious, when the rewatch started happening,

people were judging it through a 2020 lens, totally different, which obviously half the things that happened wouldn't fly today or in 2020. When it was resurfacing, did you have this gut feeling of like, oh my gosh, we have to do something to set the record straight, not even set the record straight, but to acknowledge that we realize what we've done or like we see where we should have done something different and were you excited for the opportunity to have this Netflix doc to kind of set the record straight and have your voice heard?

Because even in talking to you here and hearing you on the documentary, it's like, oh, wow, there's so much more context to your experience. And it's, I think a lot of people are like, myself included, I feel like you're still being so kind towards Tyra, who it feels like hasn't really taken the accountability. And it feels like in a lot of ways, it seems like you have kind of acknowledged some wrongdoings. And it's really beautiful. Because, yeah, watching it as a kid, I didn't even realize what I was watching half the time was probably not the best thing to be consuming.

Well, in 2020, you know, what, again, people learned in May of 2020, which it was it was not planned at all. I had been writing my novel, which was inspired by my life behind the scenes of, you know, America's next top model. My novel takes place, you know, behind the scenes of a fictitious modeling competition called Model Mews with a host, Keisha Cash. And so I had been working on this novel for quite some time. I did not have a ghost writer. I wrote it myself and had a great writing mentor that helped me polish in every draft. But ultimately, my book was slated to be published in 2020 well before the pandemic hit. We didn't know. And then the pandemic hit. and, you know, people were rewatching model, and my publishers were like, we're still going to release it this summer. And so we went, and Variety actually had the exclusive to announce my book in May. And Elizabeth Wagmeister didn't interview with me, and they released it with the cover of my book.

And that article went like wildfire around the world because everyone was locked in their home. They saw this. And they're like, oh, my gosh. And they're thinking this, well, they were like, they were comparing it to the world. The Devil Wars Prada and blah, blah, blah, and this is a behind the scenes? It's a novel, but is there truth in it? And so ultimately, that happened. And then I felt, okay, people are watching the show. Again, I do need to do something. So we were all in our homes. And I started doing these lives, which we called Jay's chat, which I started off with Miss Jay. And then ultimately started doing it with different girls from the cycles or winners every week. I did one a week. I did a season every week.

So I did 18 of these lives for 18 weeks straight. And I gave, that was the first time someone had actually given the girls a platform to speak. And then I believe it's Oliver Twix because he was a fan. He was watching and I did a live with him. He took over once I stopped. He was like, I'm going to do more of these and have the girls on my, you know, my live channel and do it on YouTube. And that's when giving the girls a platform to speak started. and it felt right at the time.

So I was already in that space because my book, and by the way, there was an author who said this on Oprah's book club once, and I can't remember who said it first. But Oprah herself has repeated this. It says every novel is really a memoir. Every memoir is really a novel. If you want to learn the most about a person, read their novel. That's interesting. You know, how many times have you read a memoir and you're like, did it really happen that way?

But then you read a novel which is fiction and go, ooh, it feels like there's more truth on the page, which truth does tend to bleed onto the page when you're writing a novel. Yeah. Beautiful. Jay, just final question. If you had a message for the America's Next Top Model audience, what would be that message as they finish and watch this doc? My message for fans and for all of the girls who participated and hopefully at some point, a lot of these producers and directors who still work in the industry and are afraid to speak. My message would be to continue the dialogue, continue the conversation.

I feel like I've said what I've needed to say, and I'm grateful for platforms like this to do interviews. But I feel that the real discussion needs to continue with everyone and use your voices and then continue the discussion. Jay, we really appreciate you taking the time. It's really been a pleasure to have this conversation with you. And thank you for being so gracious and just so open about your experiences. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Jay. Take care.

Bye. All right. Take care. Bye. Fascinating conversation. I mean, and he seems so sweet and I really, so gracious. So gracious. So gracious.

Yeah. I think it reminds you that just at the end of the day, obviously a lot of things happen publicly and people have strong opinions on that because it does affect like it affects people like America's not next top model affected people yeah but at the same time the people that did it are still people right and it's just like complicated and also like what happened behind closed doors and in privacy you know like the things that weren't air like the conversation he had you know with with the producers about the race swapping Like, hey, I don't want to be a part of this.

And it's still. Right. And, you know, so, and of course, like, no one saw that. So then everyone just tore him apart. And, like, he just sat silent for all these years. Right. Like, taking all the heat, knowing that, like, he tried, he knew it was wrong. He tried to get out of it.

He tried to use his voice. And the people above him shot him down. Yeah. Up next, we have Monique Samuel from Real Housewives of Potomac to help us unpack reunion part one. financial resolutions are great but let's be real budgets don't reset on january first between post holiday credit card bills and getting back to your regular routine cash is tight and that's why there's upside i don't care who you are everyone can benefit from a little cash back and that's why we love

upside upside is now part of our routine anytime we go to fill up our tank or grab some groceries we check the upside app first to see where we can earn the most cash back because it's always fun to how much free money you can get. The free upside app gets you cash back on gas, groceries, and dining. The first three things draining your wallet right now. Over 100,000 participating locations means cashback opportunities are everywhere you already go. And yes, it's cash back, not points you'll never use, not credits that expire, money that transfers straight to your account.

And it really is amazing how many partners are participating. We didn't have to change our routine. We just kept doing what we were doing. And it was amazing how much cash back we earned. You'll earn three times more cash back with Upside then with loyalty programs or credit card rewards alone. Users earn $1 million in cash back every single week. And unlike other programs, you can stack upside with your existing credit card and loyalty rewards. Upside has given back $1 billion to its users to find out how much you can earn.

Download the free Upside app and use promo code V-I-A-L to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas. that's an extra 25 cents back on every gallon on your first take of gas using promo code v i a l l Monique welcome to the show thanks for having me so good to be with you very excited to have you it's really been a joy seeing you back on our screen um and it feels like i mean you kind of referenced it but you know you seem like a breath of fresh air you seem lighter it feels like a whole new you does it does it's refreshing to be able to be able to ever since I started reality TV, my concept was let me just be me and show all of me. And when you are trying to protect so many different people around you, it's hard to do that. So this time,

I'm like, look, I'm single. I'm like, I ain't got nobody to protect. I got nothing to worry about. I can just go on and be me and accept my truth, be who I am. And it's been very refreshing. It's been nice. We certainly have a lot of questions about this season. But before we dive into that, I'm just curious from your perspective, like this reflecting back on just your overall journey on TV, like what's one thing that going in to reality TV that you were certain you believed or thought, and now as you standing here today, your perspective has completely changed? Oh, my goodness. You are, I guess going in, I thought that if I can give the story that I want to be shown, that's what's going to be shown.

That's a tough lesson to learn, huh? Oh, my God. And it's like, now it's just like, okay, well, whatever. I'm just going to be me. I learned that after the first season, after watching the first season, I was like, oh, okay. Now I see why these questions are being asked. Now I see like, you know, it was so just like, oh, I get it now. But even with knowing that, you have to be able to really know yourself and accept your

and be okay with all of the things that are going on in your surroundings if you're doing reality TV. Like you can't have any, any, you can't be defensive. You can't, you know, keep certain dynamics hidden because it's like production and this network have been doing this for a very long time. The areas that you are defensive, they're like, ooh, let's go deeper. Yeah. Yeah. Did you expect to come in this season and have your ex-husband be such a topic of conversation? No. I really thought that it was going to be about me just talking about my book, my journey.

And also just like seeing where the other ladies stand, the only person I've really been talking to is Ashley. You know, so it was like filling everybody out, meeting the new women, seeing what's going on. I had no idea that that was going to be the thing. And I was just like, it put me in an uncomfortable position. because I didn't want to talk about him. But apparently he's been around these ladies

and he's been all up in the mix, even when I haven't been. And I'm like, this is like not what I thought. I forgot what you said specifically. I think it was to Stacey because she was the one who did. But I really respected how you did it because you towed a very fine line. And you were basically like, listen, there's a reason why I left. I don't want to get into more, but kind of like watch yourself. And it was like perfectly, you've really found that kind of gap of like not sounding resentful

or bitter, but like you sounded like a true friend. And I'm just curious, that must have been, you know, like separation is hard, divorces, hard. Winning is like something we always want to feel when we leave these relationships. Did you have to get to a place to be able to answer, uh, or, or say something like that in such a emotionally, like, mature way, you know, because I feel like that would be difficult for a lot of us. Yeah.

So the interesting thing about going through a divorce is that you really get to see who you were married to. A lot of times you don't get to see who you were married to while you're in the marriage because either you have this mask, they have a mask, you have this illusion you want to maintain. And anything that goes against that illusion, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, just, you know, you strike it down. You don't pay attention to it. But once you're out of the marriage, there's no need to have to exist together anymore. So then that's when the mask comes all the way off.

And then you're like, whoa, that's what I was married to all this time. So my warning to Stacey in that moment was, you know, I don't know what's going on with y'all, nor do I care. But my main concern is like my life is my life and I wanted to stay that way. The details of my life is not of his business anymore. And if y'all are cordial, friendly, whatever, that's fine. But I just want to make sure that when I'm having conversations with you and the group, that they remain our conversations. And I also told her just watch who you're talking to and who you are being cool with because when that mask comes off, it's a whole different story. Yeah, well said. So you are on part two of the reunion. Did you watch part one? I didn't. I haven't had time. Me and my daughter

have been having one-on-one time the past few days. And when I tell you, it's been so nice to just disconnect. And so yeah, so I haven't, I haven't watched it yet. I'm going to watch probably tonight. No, no worries at all. Well, I think you can still speak on this, but no worries if you can't. But Nellie and I were watching it. And it was, I guess, you know, I'm not a lawyer. But I was a little surprised just how available Wendy is to talk about her court case and her legal problems. Because you know, you always hear that whatever you say can be held against you in a court of law. Right. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just curious, how of you ladies, knowing Wendy as well as you do, just kind of processed this whole situation because certainly it affects the group? I honestly feel

like she's been handling it rather well. Just because she hasn't really spoken much about it. The most I've heard her talk about it was at the reunion. And a lot of what's happening is what we're hearing the prosecution put out. It's almost like they're trying to paint her as guilty without her even being able to tell her side. And there's always another side to the story, right? So I just feel like based on what she knows and believes has happened versus what they're putting out to make it so salacious and so like, you know, over-draud. dramatizing everything, you know, even from the press conference that they had, I think she's doing a good job. I do. I do not feel as though it's up to us to judge what really happened. I mean, we've got to really just sit out and watch everything play out. And that's been my mindset. I just want to be supportive for her because guilty or not, it's stressful what she's going. So I remember when Candace press charges against me and I had to hire an attorney. And I knew what happened. I knew exactly

all the details of the fight. I knew how it happened, how it escalated, but it was still stressful having to go through that process, having to hire an attorney, having to show up at court. It was so stressful. And I knew that it was going to get, the charges would be dropped regardless, but even going through it, the amount of stress, just navigating that. You know, so I, I feel like she's doing the best as she can, and she's also trying to give some of the information without sounding like she's trying to testify in the court of the public and put too many details out, you know,

before this even sees a courtroom, you know? Yeah, for sure. Well, I appreciate your perspective on that. What are your thoughts on Angel? Obviously, both of you, ladies, she's a wag. You've been a wag. I'm curious, do you feel like you were trying to, connect with her and then she just kind of shut you down? And how do you just kind of overall feel about

Angel's time this season? You know, when I first met Angel and I was sharing a lot of my experience when we were at the lunch after Pride, she was the one that came up to me after I was done talking saying like, oh my God, we have so much in common. I would really love to talk to you so I can navigate this whole situation better. And even I spoke about just NFL players in general and how there's this image that they have to uphold, you know, as a player. That's just like a common thing in NFL. And she could relate to that. So I didn't know to what degree she could relate to it.

But that was the conversation. We didn't have much conversation after that. I didn't see her again until the sip and read. And that's when I started hearing more about, you know, how her husband didn't want to come to the event. And he kind of snapped at the ladies. And there was this whole behind the scenes thing. that happened with production and her and him and going off on production. It was just like a mess.

So as I'm hearing all of this, I'm being reminded of some of the things I dealt with. But most importantly, I was looking at her as a woman. And I'm just like, hey, outside of everything else, I feel like you are doing a lot and you're doing a lot on your own. And if you're in need of help, don't be afraid to ask. You know, I've been in that position and I didn't have. anyone approach me without judgment. I felt like it was like always judgment or always trying to like pick me apart versus somebody just coming with pure concern and saying, hey, you seem a little tapped out. And I know you have a lot going on, but you shouldn't be doing all of this by yourself. And that's simply what I was trying to do was come to her in a place of like love and concern.

And I don't want to see you go down the road. I went down. So it wasn't necessarily like me trying to come for her marriage. Like all of that nonsense, that's not even who I am. I've never been that person to just be coming for somebody without cause. I genuinely just wanted to make sure she was good, you know? So I feel like, just like any newbie, you know, she had a first season where the women are going to make comments. They're going to joke. They're going to try to trigger you. I went through it too, you know, like the first time I met Giselle. She's like, oh, you don't have a home. Like, But it's like we can't take all of these comments to heart and so angry about every little thing that said, you know, it's like this is housewives. You know, this is a part of the recipe from making a very entertaining show, you know.

So I just feel like she was taking a lot to heart. And that made it even harder for her, you know. So the women are going to keep going at you if you show that, you know, you're being triggered. Who are you happiest to reconnect with this season? I feel like Wendy. Obviously, Ashley, because we've been connected. But out of everybody, I've been really happy to reconnect with Wendy. Because when her and I met, we hit it off right from the start.

We had so much in common and we were just like, it was just like sister girl, you know? But then that season, everything went left. And then her and I never really were able to continue to develop that friendship. So to go back into it, to feel the warm welcome, so to speak, and for us to sit down and then find that same chemistry again and kind of pick up where we left off. It was really nice. Like I really enjoyed sitting with her and talking with her and still continuing, like getting together with her even, you know, while we're not filming has been nice as well. Is it been nice to see the Grand Dame back on part of the group? Yes.

So at the union, I did get to see her. we haven't been able to connect just yet, but I was very happy to see her, to see that final episode of her opening up and being so vulnerable. I think people, I know some people have whatever they want to say about the sit down,

but what people need to remember is, this is Karen who we're talking about. Karen has put up walls. She has not been as vulnerable as some of the other ladies. You know, she's been alone on the island. She doesn't mind fighting and snapping back at you and getting you together.

But for her to sit down and to show that level of vulnerability, for her is huge. And I was very proud of her. Yeah. I mean, the critics will critic, but I enjoyed that sit down. And to your point, it felt like we, it was the most we've gotten to see of that side of Karen, I feel like. And maybe this is the beginning of her growth. But yeah, I mean, that's like a lot of people wanted to see like a final product.

And it's like she literally just got out. Yeah. Right. Right. I'm like, and she's still going through her healing bait, her journey. And,

you know, I think people just want so much when they see people on TV. They want more and more and more. And it's like, just pause and just like, let's just sit with this right now and enjoy it. You know, I kind of keep track of what's a real news in Bravo World

or what's a rumor. So maybe I'm wrong. But is, is, was it been reported that Angel is not? coming back next season. Is that accurate? Honestly, I've not been on social. I'm not the one for the T.

Justin and DeVue. Is that confirmed? I don't believe anything confirmed. I think people are just thinking after the season finale that it doesn't make sense. What does your gut tell you, Monique, whether Angel will decide to return or do you think she has what it takes to continue her journey as a housewife? I think she does. And I think she should come back.

I think that, I mean, she just announced that she bought a house in Potomac. So, I mean, she has the ingredients for being a housewife of Potomac more so than some of the ladies. More so than who? I mean, she's married. She's a housewife. You know what I'm saying? She lives in Potomac. So there's a lot of people for me.

It's giving Ashley Darby shade. No, I would never show. Everybody on the show who's not married and live in Potomacomac. Jake. Okay. All right. Including me. I don't let him

Sonic anymore. Oh, there we go. Hey, it is what it is. Are you in the camp of Stacey is a little bit or a lot of bit of a fibber? I, with Stacy, I don't necessarily think

that she lies about everything. I think that she doesn't defend every lie that they're accusing her of. And that's what makes her come off as, oh, you're always lying. Because Stacey don't care. She doesn't care about defending herself. If you come at her with anything, she's just looking at you like, okay.

Like, you know, so, but I think that's why she's such a good reality TV goal, too, because she doesn't take to heart everything. Like, if you look at her and then look at Angel, they're complete opposites of each other. I'm saying? Like, Angel gets defensive. Stacey just lets it run off her shoulder. Like, she doesn't care. So I think because she's not coming with such conviction and emotion, they think like, oh, she must be lying, you know.

That makes sense. Is she forthcoming with everything? I don't think she's forthcoming with everything, but I also don't think that she's lying about everything either, you know. Yeah. So what can we expect from you on part two of the reunion? So it's going to be interesting. It's going to be good. It's a great answer.

Yes, it's going to be good. I have used a little bit of technology versus a binder this time. And I didn't have to come with a whole bookload of receipts. I just came with one that was very impactful. And it gagged everybody. And the audience will be gagged as well. Is there any air you hope to clear up either with the fans or your castmates going into next season? I don't think so. Did I do anything?

No. I was, you know, never know. Yeah. No, you had a very, you were very charming this season. Yeah. It was like, they let me, they let me live my life this season. To that, are you kind of comfortable with the role that you're playing with this group? Or are you hopeful that we might get a chance to see more of you and maybe solidify your spot as a housewife in future seasons? I'm not sure. I really enjoyed the friendship role. It was very easy. It was flexible, especially for where I am in life with my children and co-parenting and everything. So that was really nice. And it was also nice to just kind of like put my pinky toe in the pool and just see what's going on. I'm open. And, you know, I'm open to the discussion and we'll see what works.

Okay. What works without me feeling like it's too much, you know. Have you had any conversations with your ex just about how much he was talked about in this season? He wouldn't talk to me about that. We do not talk. We ain't on that picture at all. And then one final question. Are you watching Traders? I haven't watched Traders in a couple of seasons.

I think, you know what? I watched Traders when Fager was on. Okay. And I just, I can't, I don't feel like anybody can compare to what she did. And yeah, I haven't watched recently. I'm curious. Have you seen the commentary online about Candice being a traitor and whether you think, from what you've seen on traitors, do you think she would make a good trader? I think she would be an excellent trader.

Okay. I think that's blind with her. I haven't seen what people have been saying. I haven't been keeping up at all. Like when I tell you, I'm like, if I'm on Instagram or social media, it's just to post some stories and hop off. I love it. Monique, you are an absolute delight. We really appreciate you taking the time.

We hope to see more of you. And you really just seem like a good one. So I really appreciate you taking the time. And it's been really fun chatting with you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you all as well. Thank you, Monique. All right, you too.

Thank you. Bye-bye. Well, thank you to all of our guest, Monique Samuels, Ashley from Love is Blind and Jay Manuel. We appreciate you all listening. And we will be back next week.