The Viall Files - E1009 – Going Deeper with Amy Duggar King

Episode Date: October 1, 2025

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper edition.  Today, we sit down with Amy Duggar King for an open and honest conversation about life beyond reality TV. She shares her journey of carving her own path, the lessons she’s learned about family, identity, and resilience, and what’s next for her personally and professionally. “Do you feel like that family has secrets that have not been revealed?" Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  Are you struggling with any sort of dating, relationship, or life dilemma? Do you want all the answers? Email [e-mail] with your question in the subject line to express interest in appearing on the show!  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Upside - Upside has given back $1 Billion dollars to its users. To find out how much you could earn, Download the FREE Upside App and use promo code VIALL to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas. Real Real - You can get an extra one hundred dollar site credit when you sell for the first time. Go to https://therealreal.com/files to get your extra hundred dollars. Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @amyrachelleking  

Amy, welcome to the Val Files. How are you? Why am I nervous? Hi, Natalie. Are you nervous because you're like you're just nervous doing interviews or you're specifically nervous for this one? I'm specifically nervous for this one because I don't know what you're going to ask. And I know you dig deep and I know you've got just a different personality about yourself that you just like, you find out answers.

Okay. I'll take that as a compliment. Yes, that's a good compliment. It's a good compliment. Well, you have your new book out or coming out. Oh, Holy Disruptor is coming out, of which you get into a lot of details of your childhood, your time on reality TV with the Duggers, which I, for me, have always been fascinating. with. For those of you who don't know, for maybe people are tuning in for the first time to listen

to Amy, I have 10 brothers and sisters. I come from a very large family. So while I was never necessarily a fan of Meet the Duggers, I was very aware of it, you know, just because like as soon it came out, you know, I immediately would get a lot of questions. There was always this fascination with very large families. I grew up very Catholic and was in a very religious household. And You know, most people knew that. I'm sure, like, the questions when people, I'm sure you're familiar with, when meet your nieces and nephews, all the same questions. Are you guys religious?

Are you Mormon? Are you Catholic? Why do you have so many siblings? You know, are any twins, you know, all from the same parents? You know, all these questions that come with it. I was always very self-conscious of it because, like, I always saw my family as, like, relatively normal, you know? We, like every family have its quirks and, you know, ups and downs and downs and down.

but we were always, like, normal. That's so good. I'm so happy for you, Nick. So I was very, like, I guess your show, I was very, like, almost uncomfortable with it because especially as stuff started coming out, and it was almost as if the Dugger family ended up becoming the stereotypes some of the critics of religious families or large families would have that I would be very sensitive to. Yeah, it was like I was kind of, I was like, you know,

like you guys are making us look bad type of thing. Well, I wasn't, but I understand why you would feel that way. Yeah. Yeah, not you, you know, the show, but like the show itself. Yes, no, I get that. And obviously your book is all about coming forward as someone who's finding a voice through a lot of the abuse that you witness and even experienced on your own.

And a lot of the people who follow this show, we certainly love to give a voice to people who find their voice, people who have been victims. And we've all faced some sort of adversity and tragedy, but people who are able to work through it and survive it and, you know, be stronger for it on the other side. You know, it's hard to say better for it because, like, you don't want to imply that you have to go through abuse or tragedy to be better. but if you can be stronger, there's a silver lining or at least a reason for hope. So I'm very excited to talk with you. I hope you're not nervous. And we certainly just want to learn more about, you know, your story. I guess just starting with, I guess what I am fascinated about is the relationship as I, you know,

I didn't realize at the time, but I asked you, like, how many siblings do you have? Like, you know, I assume maybe you would say, oh, I have six, you know. Not 19, you know, and there's not 19 of us, but there's a lot. But you're an only child. I'm an only child. So explain to me how that happens where your mom is sisters of Jim Bob, the father of the Dugger family, the infamous Dugger family. And how does it go from you being an only child to having this close relationship with your family that had 19 children? Yeah. So, I mean, I just grew up. My mom and dad had one child. They were fine with that. They were fulfilled. And every time that my aunt and uncle were pregnant, it just always added more and more every year was like another baby to celebrate and another baby and another baby.

So, I mean, I've held all of them. You know, I was I was very, very close with them. And it almost felt like I was like an extra sister in a way, you know. But I spent a lot of my time over there. I mean, just I did everything with them, you know. So y'all lived like down the street. We lived like five minutes away from each other. Do you remember?

when the opportunity to turn this into a TV show was presented to the family? I do remember. What was that experience like? And how involved were you from the beginning? So I wasn't involved at all. They started doing like a documentary. It started off with a newspaper clipping. And it had my uncle who was in politics.

And like six of his kids were like little ducklings behind him walking to a capital. And someone took a picture of it and said like, who is this family? This is so cute. they're all matching and color coded and it equaled, you know, a documentary being being filmed and that kind of thing. And then next thing you know, they get a call from TLC. So it was just one of those things where it just kind of happened organically. And I wanted, honestly, nothing to do with it because I'm not really like them.

You know, they have certain rules and restrictions that I didn't have. And so it wasn't until season one that I was just there. picking up my grandma at their house and trying to just get her to come to the car and she refused and was like, no, you need to come inside. And I was like, oh. And it was when all the camera crew was there, all the things. And so you know she had like a hidden agenda that she didn't tell me about. And so I walked in and there they are sitting, you know, choir, you know, all meek and mild and silent and obedient. And yeah, they're filming. And so I had to walk around the cameras. Like trying to get as far away as possible from them to get, you know, to my grandma's door.

And, and yeah, they asked me if I wanted to be a chaperone for Josh and Anna, who are adults. But in their world, they need like a babysitter. They need someone to watch after them to make sure that they, you know, behave correctly and walk the line. And then how did you become like really a part of the show? Yeah. So in that moment, I'm walking, trying to be careful and quiet. And the producer was like, I'm sorry, my uncle was like, who wants to be the chaperone? Let's everyone put their names in the hat.

And I'm drawing a name. And I laughed out loud because, I mean, it's ridiculous. These grown adults need supervision. Like, what? And so I was like, how old were they at the time? And how old were you at the time? They were like 20, I believe, 19 or 20. Okay.

And I was a year older than Josh. So, like, 21. And I'm like, I just kept walking like, oh my gosh. I cannot believe this. And the producer saw that. And he was like, who are you? Kind of like zeroed in on me. And I was like, I'm Amy.

I'm just here to pick up grandma. Like, no big deal. And he was like, no, you need to jump on camera. And I was like, uh, and then that's how it all began. Did you have a conversation with your parents about like, should I do this? Like you were, you were an adult at that point? So you didn't really need their permission. So I didn't really need permission.

But I was just like, hey, I already love my family. You know, it's already something like fun. Why not? let's just do it. And so I became just like a part of the show. What was your opinion of the Dugger family at that point where were you kind of, did you see it through rose color glasses at that point? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. It was like I had them on a pedestal. Really? Yes. Yeah. They were the epitome of perfect. I'm not even kidding. Like the mom never screamed or yelled or got anxious or annoyed or needed a time out from being a mom. The dad was always provided.

kind, really fun, hands-on with the kids. The kids were always, like, the kindest to each other. They weren't allowed to be, you know, any kind of, like, bragging or stupid. Yeah. They weren't a lot of called names. Nothing. It was like, it was like going back to, like, black and white TV. Do you deliberately say the mom and the dad because you don't want to say their names?

I am watching legal. Do you blame me, allegedly, allegedly, in my opinion, in my opinion. I have to. No, that makes sense. There's targets on my back. I'm sure. I mean, they're watching. In serious, are you doing this with a sense of fear?

There is a sense of fear, but there's always a sense of freedom that comes with it. So for me, it's like I'm going to tell my story no matter what because it can help people out there. You know, you don't have to live the way that I lived for a very long time. What are your aunt and uncle doing today? I have no idea. You have no idea. I have no idea. I haven't spoken to them in a very long time.

time. Are they still public figures in any way? I don't. I mean, maybe, is-ish. Do you keep in contact with any of your cousins? I'm very close with Jill, who had a book as well, and it was great, and she's wonderful. And when she actually goes over to her parents' house, you know, they had her mom and the cousins, or her brother and sister, I watch her kids. Yeah, so we have a very close relationship. Okay. So at what age did you realize, like, wait, this feels wrong the way that you're, you're treating everyone. Like, this feels icky. Well, I mean, it took a very long time. All the rules and regulations and the things that were like all over, like, the rules in the house were just like pieces of paper with like all these

rules on it. And like, it was just how they grew up. So for a while there, I didn't think anything of it because I didn't know anything different, you know, kind of thing. I mean, I did in my own world, but over there, it was just how they were, you know? And it wasn't until I started seeing some things happen in the house that made me really, really question. Like, wait a second, who else is really hurting? Do you remember the first thing you saw? Yeah. There was a couple of things.

First off, Josh had an old computer, and my dad bought it. I was home one day and looking through it and learning about the new MacBook back in the day. Your dad bought his computer. Uh-huh. Okay. Uh-huh. And on it said Josh's files. And I was like, huh.

And so I clicked on it thinking like, you know, you forgot to delete it. And thousands of pornographic images were on there. And so here's this perfect son who smiles on cue and his hair is neatly gelled and all of these things. And yet he had kind of a big secret, you know, a different, something he was really struggling with, clearly. It's not a crime, but at the same time, it just shows that like, sometimes on. Maybe they weren't as perfect as maybe. The material you found, to be clear, it wasn't of any illegal. No.

Illegal stuff. No, not that I saw. Certainly not the type of content you would expect to find from how they presented. Right. Yeah. I mean, they were all about, you know, just Jesus and religion and being happy and walking in his ways. And yet this obviously wasn't.

When you found that out, like what did you do with that information? Yeah. So I told my mom and she was just like, okay, we've got to call. Jim Bob. I'm just going to say his name. We, I have to call him. And so we did. And I was, I was quickly dismissed. They were, I was told that Amy, there's no way that's my son's files. He would never look at such imagery. He has his name on it. I know. I, I know. He wasn't very discreet. Also his computer. Exactly. Yeah. I'm like, okay. He said that Josh bought the computer from a pawn shop. And so that could have been the name of the guy from the pawn shop.

Stop. Okay. Gotcha. Yes. Okay. So from that point forward, you know, there's sometimes a moment where you kind of, it's like you kind of wake up. You become aware of things. Yeah. Was that a moment where all of a sudden you started looking to see what else is maybe going on? Because like, you know, again, someone who's very familiar with religion. I've always had a really great, I'm not very religious anymore these days, but I've always had a very positive experience with religion. But I am very familiar with a lot of people who present as religious. It's a bit of a show, right? Definitely can be. Yeah. And they hold up, you know, there's some people who will. own, hey, I'm a sinner. I try not to be, but like I'm not going to sit there and pretend that I don't. Right. And I will continue to ask for forgiveness when I need it, but I'm, I'm a flawed person who will always and every day need grace. But it seems like your cousins and aunts and uncles and things like that, they almost presented as very pious. Oh, yes. Like they were like on level the highest level that you could possibly be with Jesus.

Just like there was no other, you couldn't get higher. You know what I mean? Just like everything was so perfect. I can't even describe to you. Like there's bread baking in the homemade bread and the kids are playing chess and everyone's so kind to each other. And there's classical music in the air. And it's just like, this is wonderful. You know, like why can't we all live like this?

And then what was your childhood like? It was hell. It was absolutely hell. Yeah. I grew up with a lot of yelling, a lot of screaming. My mom and dad were not married. They had me out of wedlock. So there I am a walking sin already, you know, something that my cousins didn't approve of. My family didn't approve of. Did you feel their judgment even as a young child? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I definitely felt like, I mean, I was told like, Amy, you need a man to help you, like, tame you down. And just felt like I was too much. I was too loud. I didn't speak. like an IBLP woman speaks. They are taught. There's like classes on... What is it? Do you say then?

Yeah. What kind of woman? Institute of Basic Life Principles is like what they follow. And it's... Did they make that up? No. No. Bill Gothard is like the leader of this religious group.

And they're like a type of Christian? It is like a... Yes. Like to the extreme. Yeah. Like extremely conservative. But yeah, there's classes on like how to change your voice and how to talk more like princess meek and mild they're taught that women are supposed to just be seen and not

really heard and that they don't really have too much they don't hold any weight uh-huh yeah how do you about that natalie it's crazy and there's obviously a part of the book where you write about kind of having this awareness that your own father had abusive tendencies Did that come before realizing that your aunt and uncle and cousins, rather, had their own skeletons in their closet? Like, where'd you go from thinking your childhood was hell, but maybe normal? I think most kids who grow up in a household with this yelling and screaming and disconnect and, you know, if you don't know anything different, you know. And even if you maybe like when you went to your aunts and uncle's house and there's this harmony,

it's just more like, well, you know, it's like really nice here and religious, but like maybe my parents just yell, like, but you had an awareness that like this isn't okay. Yeah, I mean, I would like hide at the trampoline late at night and just like go look at the stars and be like one day it doesn't have to be like this. There was just a lot of strife, a lot of control, a lot of fear. And IBLP, which is, you know, what I was telling you about that group, they work out of fear. Like, that's how they get, you know, people to just, like, bend to their will. You talk a lot about the abusive tactics that your family used on you. Shaming, gaslighting, love bombing, all the things. Which do you feel like hit you the hardest?

And, like, how has that shaped how you view love today? I, since I was younger, I felt like I was very, like, I was talked to in a very condescending tone. And so I always felt, like, a little girl, you know, it's stupid. Like, I had nothing to offer. And that played a huge role because for a while there, I was like, I am not enough. I'm too loud. I'm too boisterous. I'm not like them.

And so instead of using it as like something positive, like, you know, she's going to just be a part of the show and kind of add to it. It was I was also viewed as crazy. My nickname was crazy cousin Amy. And it was a nickname that I did not approve of and it's not something that I really wanted. and yet that's what I was called. Like everyone. Like everyone knew to me as that. Yeah.

For over 80 episodes. Everyone wants a nickname. Right. To a certain extent. And did you feel like, oh, like, I'm crazy. Like, it's fun. Or it was a little bit of that or some shame that was part of the nickname. Yeah.

I mean, at first I was just like, I hate this. Like, I know it's going to turn into something more. And I mean, because you can view crazy as anything, right? But for me, I was like, I don't have a police. record. I've never done drugs. I've never done like a one-night stand. Like, why am I crazy? You know? And then I was like, okay, well, it's not going to change. No one's listening to me. So I might as well embrace it. And so I started like jumping out of plane. I started, you know, feeding a giraffe from my mouth, all the things that the producers wanted me to do. And I was just like,

let's just go with it. And so at that point. Did your parents call you that too? No. No, not at all. Just my cousins and all them. And it was almost like a stipulation like, we love Amy. but she's different than us kind of thing. Back to, you know, filming the TV show. I'm obviously very familiar with how reality TV works, how it's made. You talked a little bit about when people are asked to film a TV show, you realize that while it's reality TV, you know, hey, you're making a TV show. And sometimes, like, you need to like repeat something because they didn't get it on camera

or it didn't get it, it didn't pick up clearly on the audio. It's just like, hey, but people have to, you know, it's like there's a level. of again we have to make a TV show and that I think on for anyone listening or watching and who hears that it makes sense like it doesn't take away from the authenticity for the most part knowing that like hey we might have to guide a scene along so to speak I think depending on the show you know there's a spectrum of like is this really authentic are we creating scenes is it inauthentic did you see a change in your family's behavior knowing that like they became almost caricatures of themselves like once they're in a TV show which I think is very common for

people who do these episodic kind of documentary type of shows where they're being followed and you kind of succumb to the pressure of the audience and what people are saying about you and you either want to lean in or lean away from certain opinions that people are saying like how did you witness your aunt and uncle and your cousin's behavior as a result of them being a part of the show? I think that there was like a huge shift and I realized that they didn't trust people all of a sudden. Like the house was, I mean, anyone was a welcome. I mean, they would invite anyone over 100 plus people all the time. It was like a busy hotel, literally.

But at the same time, they didn't trust people with like actual like information. Like they wouldn't tell like where they were going or like what kind of trip they were going on or whatever. And so, yeah, you just started noticing that there was more, there were more characters on the show than just, like, regular people with the big family. I mean, they definitely had different personalities and that kind of thing. And I think they played into it for sure. You talk about the financial control that your dad kind of did. Can you tell our audience a little bit more about that? My uncle.

Oh, with your uncle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he told all of us that 19 Kincent County was a ministry and that we were on the show, you know, just to shine a light in the darkness. and to be a part of this ministry and that God has called us to this. Was there any compensation? Nada. Zero.

So as far as all the kids and you were aware, you were doing this for the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I mean, I go into it in my book, and there's a contract. There's a bunch of stuff that I talk about. But yeah, I signed a contract blindly. Oh, wow. Uh-huh.

Do you know how much, do you have any idea how much money? Um, I actually looked it up. I think it was like over six million. Wow. Yeah. Ministry, right? Ministry. Ministry.

And what I've noticed also is that he loves real estate. So he's bought all kinds of houses. He's investing. He's an investor. And he's very smart. He really is. He's a businessman and he knows how to how to do it. But ministry.

Was your aunt aware of any of that at all? Or was she also kept out of it? So the AVLP teaches that the men are the umbrella. So they have full control over the entire household. And then the women are really just silenced, which is terrible. But they're silenced. And so they have to go with what their husband says because they're submitive. So are they, like, asking for, say they're going to the grocery store.

Is it like, hey, I need money to go to the grocery store? And then it's. No, I mean, I think they have money like to do that. There was definitely like a debit card and, you know, that kind of thing. A joint account. But he, I believe, in my opinion, he kept track of that. And he made sure that it all fell in line to what he expected of the family. And if there was ever where they went somewhere else, let's say Hooters, for example, or somewhere like that, then I personally believe that he would dock that and then something would come about it.

He kept close tabs for sure. Do you have any memory of your uncle doing anything the opposite of what he preached? Yes. He preached all the time about how like lying, the lying tongue is not of God and that you can't, you can't trust someone that lies. You shouldn't be around that. And honestly, like, lie. And I put it in my book, that lying is like a snowball. And it just gathers momentum every lie you take until it's rolling down the hill.

there's no way to stop it. I literally listen my book, several lies that was told to me by him. Like what? Oh, all kinds of things. Allegedly. No, yeah. So when Josh had his last horrible scandal and went to prison, we asked like, hey, is there any truth to this? Tell me this isn't true. And he responded with, oh, no, not at all. Home insecurity is just friends of Josh. And so they stopped by to say hi. Friends. Friends. Friends with home. And do remind my audience like what what did he go to jail for? Oh Lord. He was found guilty of having sexual abuse material of children. All right. Terrible. Terrible stuff. Low of the low. And I was told that there was no problem back in the day with the computer, you know? It all goes full circle. It's a big full

circle in this whole book and in this whole situation. And so they've never accepted the fact that he did that. I don't believe so. Mm-mm. I think they're still defending him till this day. Wow. Yeah. And like just through denying, like denial? Yeah. I mean, they're just like my son would never do that. They got it wrong. And they got it wrong. It's beyond. Wow. Yeah. It's like so hard to comprehend. Uh-huh. Yeah. There was like eight different lies, I believe, that are in, in the book of all the things that he told me. Looking back, like, what were some of the signs that in the moment you didn't really notice or just kind of maybe overlooked, that now looking back, you realized that this was a family that were not who they pretended to be or how they presented themselves?

It still, like, kills me till this day, but there was a birthday party. There was a huge celebration in their home. And it was like a 7,800 square foot home, okay, large. And the living room was full of people and I went to the pantry to get um to get some napkins and I you know opened the door and I heard so I heard something be like like holding it in and I turned on the light and bless it one of my cousins was like holding her mouth like where she couldn't cry out loud and having like a severe panic attack and you could just tell something was going on something was and so I reached down, I held her, got the napkins, whatever, and just held her. And just let her know, like, I see you, you know, you were worthy to be seen. Like, I'm here. How can I help you? And,

and I just held her. I just held her for probably 30 minutes. And no one knew she was hurting. No one knew she was crying. And I was like, what do I do with this information? Like, oh, my gosh, you know. And so I tried, I tried my hardest to contact my uncle, talk to him, talk to my aunt, talk to anyone that would listen, you know, because I was like, obviously, you know, they're always happy all the time, but they were, I think some of them, allegedly, were very much hurting and in a lot of pain and going through trauma that I had no idea about. But when I, you know, asked them, like, you know, trying to tell them what was going on, they were just like, oh, Amy, it's fine.

She just had a bad day. There's nothing going on. Nothing going on. And so I hate to say this, but I kind of believed them, you know, because it was just so convincing. And I'm like, oh, she was on her period. Yes. Like, oh, having a.

Yeah, exactly. like something like that so i was like okay or like maybe they're sad that like someone's getting married and moving out of the house or you know because they couldn't leave the house until they got married that's a rule let me ask you this you like because you know for example with josh they have you said defended them to this day yeah what is your gut or your heart tell you do you think deep down they know they're wrong for doing some of the things they've done or do you believe that they are walking a noble life or whatever you want to call it a righteous life versus you know what I'm saying like the pastor who like cheats on his wife right and steals money from you know it's like

he knows he's a piece of shit you know what I'm saying and he's just using religion as a cover right and using you know Bible scriptures as a way to control his victims and then there are people who are just like just delusional I don't know which one do you think it's more of from your point of you when you're looking at specifically your uncle yeah so in my opinion i just put that out there um i definitely think that he knows that he's done wrong and i i do think that like how can you not how could you sleep at night knowing all the lies you've told all the things i mean he's lied on like national television to everyone and it's just like come on dude like you give it up like the gig is up you know but he's also the type i believe that uh that wants to live in this like perfect world

And so I think he creates that. Does that make sense? Like he's just... Do you think he was always like that? It's complicated. Like, do you think he started the show with good intentions? I really do. I really do believe that.

I do. I think he was like, hey, this is ministry. We're going to show like the good of people and all of that. But in my book, I also explained that I do believe that Josh went for help. He tried to talk to his parents for help. But it was when the show was going. And, you know, why mess up a good thing if... We can kind of put it under the rug and sweep it under and no one has to know.

That's so sad. Do you feel like maybe like the money and the fame kind of got to him where he started getting a little bit more and more corrupt? I think because money does that to almost anyone if you don't keep it in check, right? And so if you just, you know, all the perks that were coming in and the invites and the tickets and the this and the first class tickets and, you know, all the things that you're invited to, reality TV isn't real. I think it can really warp your mind. I really think it can. So I think the money, money became like his fascination. And then it just, it just kept on growing and growing and grow. Did you ever

confide in your parents about what was going on at your aunt and uncle's house? And like, what was their response? I mean, yeah, but my mom was under the impression that like, oh, like they're such great people. Like, don't worry about it. Don't, you know, whatever. So I actually ignored my like basic instincts and my heart and what was like that gut feeling that like something was off. I ignored it for as long as I could because I still wanted to be part of the family. I still loved them and I knew if I asked questions then, you know, I'm considered like an outsider already, you know, because I'm not a part of the IBLP. And so in order to like really get to know them more, you would have to be a part of what they believe. But I already wasn't. So I was already

kind of like on that line. And so I was just like, oh, my. gosh, like I don't want to lose my family, you know. Do you think the IBLP is more of a cult than a religion? 100%. It's completely manmade, in my opinion, just made made up rules. And they don't make sense because every man in the family, right? Let's say they've got 11 kids. And the man, the father can decipher what happens in that, in that household. And every, every household is different because the man is the leader and like thumb control. Do you know how, Jim, Bob got it connected with this specific cult? I don't.

I know that IBLP started going to different churches around the area, and it was like conferences. And I'm sure it looked really good because the way that my uncle and my mom grew up was a lot of yelling, a lot of fighting, a lot of, you know, a lot of turmoil. And so I think he was probably, in my opinion, looking for structure, looking for some way to, like, raise his family in the right way. And so I think it looked golden and looked happy. It looked inviting, and it's something that he was like, oh, like, this is going to be a really great thing for my family.

And then it's just really crazy how it turns into it because the men are not held accountable. So anything is possible and anything can happen. Yeah. Yeah. You talk about, I mean, and you said right here that your childhood was held. Did you feel loved and cared for as a child? There were times that I did. But then again, my mom and my dad, they didn't get married until, like, I was.

I was senior of high school. So they had a really like a rollercoaster relationship, ups and downs, all arounds, the whole thing. And so when things were going great, things were great. But when things weren't, then it was just kind of like I wasn't necessarily, I was kind of like an afterthought. Yeah. And is this, your parents got divorced the same year you got married. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. How is that for you mentally? I mean, honestly, I was excited for them, honestly, to divorce. It was to the point that my mom's life was probably going to be in danger, in my opinion, allegedly. It was getting really bad and just scary.

And so my mom now lives with us. Do you have any relationship with your father? I do not. I haven't talked to him in a really long time. What made you feel scared for her? Things that he would say, he would pace the floor. He would say, like, I don't know what I'm going to do with you. he had all kinds of threats that he would say just randomly out of nowhere would be just sitting at the movies or like sitting in the living room and he would just get up and just start like getting angry and you're like oh my gosh what are you going to do like it was just you just never knew you never knew did he ever hit you your mom he didn't thank goodness but I mean emotional abuse is is a big deal and I felt like he punched me several times even when he didn't yeah

I think there's a lot of people out there who experience emotional abuse, and you write about this in your book, but at times it kind of feels like family quirks or like maybe this is our way of doing things. For the people listening who might be experiencing a type of emotional abuse, how did your internal dialogue go from allowing you to realize that these weren't just family quirks, but they were actually signs of emotional abuse? It's a good question. I think that movie The Truman Show, you know, when he's floating, everything's gray, happy, go lucky. And then he hits a wall. I hit that same wall. And I just was like, there is a life that I've always wanted that I'm not going to get with having these kind of people in my life and surrounding me in my inner circle. And so I just started noticing. I started taking in like just have their behavior, the way they talk, the way that what they say, how they belittle, you know, all the things that they do. that are like little like little punches little jabs for no reason at all and why am I judged why am I you know being unfairly labeled all the things and I was like I don't need this in my life I would start feeling really like chaotic like inside jittery you know just mad for no reason and you can just tell like there's you can do things differently and so I just was like I'm done I'm just so done and I did I just I literally drove in my car one day I wasn't getting any answers

about Josh and like all the things that's gone on and I was like I need answers and why is truth so hard to find in this freaking family and I um I drove to their house and I was like on a mission let me tell you and I confronted him it's in the book Josh yeah can you tease a little bit about what that conversation was like I can tease um I asked him point blank and not to go you know too much information but I asked in point blank why he didn't touch me why I was not why I was not a What made you want to ask that? Because he had touched his sisters, and that was like his first huge, terrible scandal. And so, yeah, it was after that that I was like, I'm going to find some answers and I'm, I'll be damned if I don't get them.

Did you leave with answers? I did. I did. And I left feeling like a superhero. Just felt like I did everything I could. You know, I'm not this crazy wild, crazy cousin Amy that everybody knows. but, like, I have a moral compass, and I'm not the person that I've been portrayed all these years. You almost sound like you have a little bit of grace for Josh.

I kind of do, in a way, a very small amount. And let me just tell you why. I feel like he did try to get help. I feel like he did say, like, hey, I have a problem. Someone helped me. And no one came to his rescue. Obviously, we're not doctors. No.

There's no therapist in this room. But do you have... Or maybe you're aware through, you know, people who have spoken out or about your family. But usually when it comes to this type of abuse, often abusers were once victims of abuse. Do you have any insight to or ideas of why you think your cousin Josh became the abuser that he is? I think it just kept it was unchecked no one you know got him to help they don't believe IVLP doesn't believe in counseling you know what I'm saying oh yeah like I've never had I'm like some of his actions are very disgusting and very just hard to really right even comprehend

I don't know where it began I don't know who maybe allegedly abused anyone do you have any suspicions that it happened or that there was that type of abuse I that family yeah I think there has to be someone somewhere that did something to where it began. But I have no idea who. And they went to like family camps and conferences. There was people all around. Like I said, they were always people in the house. And I don't know who it was.

I have no idea. I mean, like, listen, like kids finding porn is not that uncommon of a thing. True. You know, porn wasn't as prevalent as as now. But when I was a kid, you know, I had some friends who dads had like a playboy hidden in their drawer and their kids found out about it and we would snick away and go see it and things like that and so for you to find your cousin Josh's laptop and find a folder and at the time you discovered this pornographic material none of which was the type of content that he later seemed to get into

that is obviously disgusting and illegal but for you to like go to his parents like for them to be in denial about that something that again most parents are faced with their kid coming across some pornographic material. Right. And maybe even consuming it to a level that looks like, hey, like this is too much, you know? Like it obviously shows that these were a kind of parents that lived in denial. So yeah, it's like it's in, man, I, again, I know what it's like to be in a large family. My parents were always had a good pulse on what all their kids were doing.

That's so good. But yeah, like I am trying to comprehend what 19 would be like. Yeah. I mean, yeah, no, it's crazy. They had special quality time with their parents on their birthdays, like one-on-one. But, I mean, as far as I saw. Were they kind of on their own in a way? I mean, yeah, they wondered. They, I mean, they had like lots of land. So, I mean, they played chess. They played ball. They, you know, went with their dad at their car a lot. Did the older ones also kind of parent the younger ones? Yeah, they had a buddy system. They had a buddy system. So they had two or three. younger ones that the older ones watched. Are any of your cousins close with your aunt and uncle still to this day? Yeah. So they all spend quality time, holidays, everything.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. What is your opinion of them today? Oh, gosh. My opinion of them is that I find it to be a very unhealthy family toxic pattern. That's just going to continue and continue and continue. Is it hard for you to be close with Jill?

Like, is there any of that kind of like, what are you doing? How can you not see this? Or is it kind of like, you know what? You're an adult. I'm an adult. You do your thing. I'm here. I love you. So Jill has done a lot of counseling. And I will tell you, she's done a lot of counseling. So she's healed from a lot. And I will tell you that she's a strong girl. So she loves her brothers and sisters. She loves her mom. You know, I think it's kind of difficult at times to be over there. But she limits her time. time. But yeah, I mean, there's no amosity or anything like that between Jill and I at all. It's just more of like, hey, that's your decision. But I realize that's like your immediate family. It's not really mine. So I don't have to invite that back into my life. Right. On that show, I'm always reminding my audience that the word gaslighting is often watered down or misused. You know, someone who's being a little manipulative doesn't necessarily mean they're gaslighting or a couple that's fighting. right doesn't mean someone's gaslighting the other person but in your case it really seems like real gaslighting was happening yeah is there any time where your anxiety was at a point where you truly questioned your own reality and can you describe what that situation was like yeah i can tell you i tried over and over and over to have a relationship with my dad um and i threw a big like hail mary and i invited him to counseling and we were in the counseling studio area for like five hours like a long time and in that time you know I told him everything

how I felt how he made me feel I apologize he apologized everything was great and it was like one of the heartbreaking things that's in my book but the next morning I remember calling him and being like thank you so much for going with me to counseling and working through things and he went ballistic you guys and was like what are you talking about I never was there and I was like like and in my mind i was like he he literally made me feel like i was crazy and that like i dream i dreamt it up and so i was like wait a second and he was like if i was there and i went to counseling with you where are the notes amy where are the notes where are my notes like i never went you're you're psycho you've lost your mind like all these things and i was like i don't have any notes

you know like i you really really had to it sounds crazy how someone can do that but they really did have like they can have a power over you and it's yeah it's wild i have to say i had some trauma happened to me as a child and i feel like having my own daughter has been very healing for me yes has that kind of been healing for you as well and being able to parent in a way that you want a parent and you wish you were parent yes no parenting is like my favorite thing on the planet i have a five-year-old the guy was telling you earlier niley he has a mullet he does his own thing he's like like an old soul and like loves like old classic rock and like I just I love molding him and teaching him and teaching him about you know just self control and the goodness of like people

and how to be genuine and kind and honest the things that are going to make him just a great man someday what is the relationship like between your mom and him your son so yeah our nana lives with us and so they are best friends they're at chucky cheese right now just living it up oh yeah Oh, yeah. They have the best time. They really do. And it really is like full circle because it has like a healing journey. And my mom's journey is, she's safe and she's fine and she's so much healthier now than she ever has been. And so to see that is just, it's everything my heart could ever want. That's really beautiful. Yeah. Have any of your cousins to this day received any financial compensation for being on the show? Not that I know of. Crazy. And do you know how any of them feel about that? Nope. They, so IVLP teaches that you are happy, smiling all the time, and that other emotions are not of God. So you cannot ask questions. You can't, you know, be annoyed, worry, anxious, nothing. Have none of the 19 kids, like, broken away from. So Ginger is in L.A. and living her life. And I think she's, she's gotten away from it probably a little bit. Jill has, but there's only, there's only two. two daughters that really have.

Wow. And the rest are locked in? If you ask me, probably still real thick in it. Wow. Yeah. That first year in a new home can teach you quickly that home system and appliance breakdowns happen and they're expensive. Homeowners often deal with at least one and fixing something like an AC or water heater

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And, like, a ruffle shirt. And he was like, oh, my gosh. Like, he was a friend of a friend. So I didn't know him, but I kind of knew he was around. And he was just like, what the hell are you wearing? It's how he started the conversation. What did you say? Were you like, I was just like, okay, like, here's a guy that's like totally honest.

I was like, do I look bad? And he was like, I mean, kind of. Like, I can't tell what the heck's going on. And I was like, okay, that's kind of refreshing. Like, you know. So we just became friends for like six years and best friends. Oh, gosh, like 24. So you were filming the show?

No, not 24. 22. Were you on the show? Were you on the show? What were you? Um, I was, yes. Yeah. And he, he had no idea who it was. He had no clue. He was like, I don't know. How did you bring it up? Oh my gosh. Okay. This is funny. Um, I, I mean, I told him. I was just like, yeah, he's like, what do you do? And I'm like, well, it's a long story. I was like, you know, on this TV show. And he's like, what? That's crazy. And so I actually invited him to my cousin's house. And I didn't give him any, like, rules. Like, he's very like, no filter kind of guy. Like, you guys would love him. You guys would get along so well. But he, uh, walks in. And he's talking to the boys about cars and engines and stuff. And like I said, I didn't give him any rules.

And so the color black is like very wrong in their eyes. Like it's like a very like a devilish color. That you can't wear it? It's right. Yeah, like I'm a walking sin right now. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a problem. Is this like you being rebellious?

I mean. She's wearing all black. Inwardly. I didn't even realize I did that. But yes, I will take it. Really? Like what about a funeral? Yeah.

No, I mean. I think at funeral, it's navy blue is what they wear. Okay. But they don't... A little pop of color. Yeah, just a little bit of something. But yeah, it's not really... Did he wear black?

It's not really... No, but so like one of the little girls, and they all start with Jays, but one of the little girls was like, Dylan, like, so innocent and so sweet. It was like, what's your favorite color? And he was like, black. And they were like, and they just like stopped in their tracks. And they were like, and they already think, like, I'm one. wild and crazy and all these things and how Dylan likes the color black. And I remember kicking him

underneath the seat, like underneath the table, like shut up. And he was just like, what? The color black is sexy. The color of black is sexy. Like I was like, I literally cannot like handle it. And so from that on, like they just were like Dylan is over there. Like did they welcome him back to their house with open arms? Well, I mean, I think maybe a couple times, but it was different. Like they wouldn't allow us to really have more than like surface level conversations um and and then and then after we actually got married then it was the scandals that came out so it's like they barely knew him um because then we just completely separated ourselves completely from it is your maiden name dougar and is that because you have no relationship with your father because it's your mom who's yes yes sisters with

jimba right yeah that's my maiden name it's just dougar i just had to my mom's made a name and so Oh, because they weren't married. Because they weren't married. So you took your blow. Yeah, people think that like I changed my name for fame or that I like want to ride that like coat tail and I'm just like, oh my gosh. Well, it's funny because what the reason I wanted to bring it up is almost the opposite.

Again, my family's overall for all for having 13 people, we're a close family. I mean, I'm closer with sub-siblings than others. As a whole, we're generally pretty close. We're all very different. in a lot of ways. I have siblings who are on the complete polar opposites of the political spectrum. It's always funny when people in the public eye, well, it's like, well, their sister or brother said this, and as if like they must be one and the same, you know, and just because you're in the same family, you can be very different people. Yeah. You know, as close as my family is, I go months,

you know, not talking to some of my siblings. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're getting into, you know? I don't know if someone's like being radicalized by whatever the shit's going on on the internet. Like, what if one of my siblings did some crazy horrible shit? I don't think they would. I mean, just for anyone less, you know what I'm saying? But you just, you never know. And so my question to you is like having the Dugger name, knowing that it is now in many people's eyes attached to some very terrible things, one being your cousin Josh. Yes. Have you ever thought of just like not one? wanting that attached to your name, or do you feel like people treat you in a way where it's like

if they find out you're a Dugger, where it's just like you almost feel the judgment that they would pass on to that family? No, I, okay, good question. I think because my name is Dugger, I'm not changing it. I mean, that's just who I am. But at the same time, I have been very outspoken from the very beginning from the moment that scandal started happening and things like that. And so the whole book is about how disruption in a family pattern, any kind of healthy or any unhealthy relationships, you have to like change that, right? And so, I mean, that's my goal and prayer is that the people that read this book can just like, you put it in their own lives. Like, you know, just embrace the fact that like your family might be crazy or what you're around

is pretty terrible, but you can put things in order and put your life back on the peace track, you know you're still a religious you consider yourself a religious person um i'm curious is how were you able to maintain a relationship with god and have a strong religious foundation because a lot of people in your position people who experience a religious trauma of some kind often have a very negative opinion about religion uh and a very negative connotation with it but that's not something that's happened to you. And yet you've speaking your book about how your faith has allowed you on this healing journey. And you've really leaned on that despite some of the religious trauma that you've witnessed and experienced. Yeah. So I believe that like in the Bible, literally, it says God is not

the author of confusion. And when I think about all the craziness that's gone on in this world and then the things that's gone on in like my family, the things that I've had to heal from and learn from and all of that there's confusion everywhere I look right there's just all of that so you have to disrupt it you do and so I I just have this whole like filter now in my life where if like whoever I'm around whatever I watch whatever music I listen to whatever does it bring me peace and that's just my question and even if you're not religious like you know like you whatever you can still ask like okay I still you probably still want a peaceful life right like you still want like you don't want chaos you know and so for me i just i just take that in and that's just what i think of every like

every second of the day it's just like does it bring me a piece and like what kind of direction can i take from here to be a better person uh you've talked about how your relationship with your husband is something that you've leaned on um to you know to get through all this um how have you and your husband formed a positive relationship and healthy relationship given your background and in your upbringing. I don't think it has anything to do with it. You know, the way we respect each other, the way we have mutual, like, care. And I, like, genuinely love him, like, with every being of my body. We've been married for 10 years, and he drives me crazy. And he's a mess sometimes. And he drives me out, like, out of my mind. But he's, like, my best friend. You know, he's the rock. He's the one

I can, like, cry to and just be myself with 100%. And so I don't think it matters. But I don't think it mattered what my last name would be. I think we would probably still find love with each other and be happy. You talk a lot about gentle parenting. Well, tell me about it because, you know, I'm not all that familiar with it. And you talk about it as a way kind of almost to rebel against your childhood. Right. Because you came from a very kind of authoritative upbringing. I have my doubts about gentle parenting. I want to hear it. For me, I, you know, again, like, you know, I, again, grew up in a very religious household. I'm not related to. today. I respect my upbringing and I'm very grateful of the upbringing I had and I do very much

think it's important, you know, to honor my parents, respect my parents and I had a great level of respect for adults and authority. And I think that has really allowed me to honestly like have the success I've had and things like that. And when it comes, when I hear about gentle parenting. I feel like it includes a lack of like respect for authority and adults and don't know a lot about it. Well, what would you do in Little River? Like what how do you discipline? Well, she's only a year and a half. True. True. You know, it's funny enough that like, you know, before we had River, we would always joke about who's going to be the, you know, the tough cop and who is going to be the nice one. Yeah. And now I'd always say that I would, you know, I would be a softie.

but I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to be... You're going to be the one. The one. Her and River have such a bond, and there's such a connection there. Yeah. And I just really don't want to have spoiled children. No, I get that. And I really want my kids to have a level of respect for authority in adults.

And I do think a big part of childhood is working through adversity and being challenged and going through hard times. You know, and I think as parents, especially, privileged parents. Like, we're very lucky and very privileged. Sometimes my, like, some of the things I had to go through as a child is because my parents are like, I can't afford that shit. You know, they had, you know. Oh, kids now are like, yeah. If we wanted to, we're lucky enough to, we could give our daughter anything. I hear you. Same here. So we have to choose to say no, you know, and things like that. So back to gentle parenting. Well, for the skeptics out there. Yeah. How have you incorporated it in a way that you feel is positive.

Oh, my goodness. Okay, there's lots of things. So we don't live in spanking. Spanking is something that I will not tolerate. I told Dylan, I was like, I love you. If you cheat, I'm out. And if you spank, I'm out. Like, I can't do it because it's still hitting.

You're still hitting a child. I just, I think that's crazy and so sad. But, yeah, I just feel like I just get down on their level. You know, like when Dax, you know, does anything wrong. I'm just like, hey, buddy. like listen like i've never been a mom before you i've never like had a five girl before let's like work together as a team and like let's figure this out so if you need a break like a you know just have a seat whatever relax and so i just i feel like talking really like he's like oh i

understand like i don't have to yell i don't have to like pretend that i'm this princess or that i've got everything figured out because he's only five so ask me this when he's 12 and when he's 20 Do you feel like, I think there's a, there's a, and again, a lot of times people, we criticize things we don't fully understand. So I'll recognize that like I haven't spent a lot of time studying gentle parenting tactics. I think there's a perception out there that parents who, gentle parent, negotiate with their children rather than at time to be like, my dad's favorite line was because I said so. Oh, cringe. Well, I honestly think... Is that you think so?

Well, I think, yeah, there's a... Yeah, I really do. I think children need to know that their parents are in charge. Right. And there's a level of respect and authority they have to have. And I think if you don't respect your parents, how can you possibly, in the real world, respect your boss or your elders or think people who don't care, like, who don't love you like we love our children?

Right. You know, who at the end of the day don't have a difficult, you know, we'll have a difficult time, you know, punishing our children because we love them and we don't want to see them sad or cry, but, you know, deep down, we know what's good for them. Right. The world's not going to give a shit, you know. And I, yeah, I do think that is important to a certain degree where I don't, oh, life doesn't always have to explain to you, like, why the world is the way it is.

I think because my cousins are like they, in my opinion, they blindly follow, they did do. And it led them to abuse. It led them in a wrong way. For me, I don't want my son just to obey because I say so. I want him to ask questions. I literally tell him like, hey, buddy, if I ask you to do something and you don't understand it, ask me why. I am fine with explaining. It is so crazy how, and I see it with River and she's only 19 months old, but like we'll be walking and, you know, you know, in the parking lot, into a store, and she wants to get down. And it's like, uh, uh, uh, uh, and I'll be like, no, no, no, no. And then I'm like, wait, look at all the cars. Look how many cars there are. It's dangerous. You can't get down. And then she's like, oh, okay.

It's like once you explain why they can't do something, why you're saying no, then they understand. And you're like, oh, okay, that makes sense. It's not just because I, you don't want me to. Yes, no, exactly. I also explained to Dax also. I'm like, hey, buddy, I'm never, mom and dad and Nana, people that are in your circle, the people that love you the most will never ask you to do something that's going to hurt you

or put you in like harm's way ever yeah and so he's like okay so i'm like but i tell him i'm like if you want to know why like you have to go clean your room i'll tell you why like you can ask and i'm like very open and up front with him because when i was little i couldn't ask why and i would just do things and being yelled at or you know being like you know annoying and be like oh just because i said so and i be like okay so i still respect. I want him to respect for sure. I want him to like no authority and all that. But he can ask why. Well, what happens after they ask why? You explain why. And then let's say like six months go by, you tell them what to do. You've already explained why. And then they go, why do I have to do that? Do you explain it again? I do. I know that sounds crazy probably. But like, yes, I think you can do

it in like a strict way. I'll just be like, I've already told you you have. And I always tell him, you have a choice. you don't have to obey and there's consequences I take away a toy you don't get to have a playday like there's always something that can come up or you can choose the right way and you can obey and make this really easy um and so yeah there's like two different ways to do it i mean yeah i've i've seen a lot of like strictness harshness growing up and so i just didn't want that to continue in the generation to come for him and that makes a lot of sense and i think there's i think for me everything there's a balance to everything, right? And totally get a lot what you were saying. I guess just to play devil's advocate with you, because you've kind of acknowledged, part of this comes from a level of

rebellion. So how do you, when you're parenting your own child, or for all the parents out there who are listening to you and really connect with what you're saying, because maybe they're parenting, you know, often, right? Like, your parent's an alcoholic, sometimes you become alcoholic or sometimes you never touch a drink. It's like usually one or the other, right? You either end up becoming who your parents are if it's extreme or you very much are against it in a way, you know, type of thing. So how do you challenge yourself acknowledging that you've had your own trauma, that you are parenting not just because you're projecting what's happened to you knowing that maybe, you know, your child's lucky enough to not have experience what you experience

and they have that love that you're giving them? So how do you make sure that it's not a projection of your own trauma rather than just like what's right for them. You ask hard questions. He's so good at what he does. He's so good. This is why people watch and follow you.

That's a good question. I, okay, before I took time, before I was pregnant, to really educate myself and to really make sure that like what I, like, why I wanted to be a parent is for the right reasons, right?

And so I've done the healing. I know the trauma that can happen, you know, in like the ways around it and the way to protect my child. And now I just am like the mama bear that's going to do it at all costs. And I think it starts at home. I think it really does. Just how we treat them, how they're respected, you know, how they take care of things will continue in this world as they get older. So I don't know. That's just kind of where I'm at.

What's your mom's opinion of her brother? So there's a lot in my book about why their relationship is spread. and why she doesn't necessarily trust him anymore. Can you elaborate a little bit more, just like what's her general opinion? Does she think he's a good guy? In my opinion, I would think that my mom would probably say no. She's been very hurt by him. In your opinion, do you think, if I said your uncle sounds like a monster?

In my opinion, I would think that you probably are not far off from that. If I said, do you think your aunt is equally to blame for what's happened with her family? Or do you give her grace given the extreme ways in which women are expected to operate in this alleged cult? I would give my aunt some grace because I do feel like she doesn't have a voice. I really truly believe that. And are they still a part of this? They won't probably say it out loud, but more than likely, yes. When you're taught, when you hang out with Jill, what does Jill think of you writing this book, first of all?

She's 100% supportive of it. Okay. She's excited for it. And when you get together with her at this point, is it just like, let's not talk about that. Let's focus on our kids and what's in front of us? Or do you still push back at times when it comes to her connection? with her family. I don't push back because I know that, like, you know, having a brother and sisters is important.

I didn't have any. So I'm sure it's important. You know, it's that connection that they still want to have. I think she's very careful on how she has those relationships. But, no, we have a good time. Like, we, she has three boys. You know, I have, I have an only child. I love one, by the way.

Oh, my word, it's the best. And so when they all get together, I think we just focus on, like, quality time now. because back then we had relationship we had a quality time but it was surface level only how is the weather you know I like your jeans skirt you know all that kind of

stuff and so it wasn't really we couldn't ask deep hard topics we have before we've gotten very deep she's told me things that I will not repeat and yeah we just have that trust and bond do you feel like that family has secrets that have not been revealed that well are either illegal or people like that that need to get out for this for the sake of

others i believe that it is a breeding ground for all kinds of crimes i think that they're not just in my family's house nothing like that but just iBLP as a whole i just don't think it's it's healthy in any kind of way and so yeah i believe that in hopefully five 10 20 years someone else will forward being a Holo Disruptor and sharing their story. Has Jim Bob ever been investigated by any authorities? Not that I know it. Do you feel like he should be? I do, in my opinion, believe that there could be something that he could definitely be

probably looked at for. Wow. I'm assuming you wouldn't feel comfortable with any of your cousins other than Jill. Jill babysitting your child? No, I don't think that would ever happen. Would you like Jill? Yes, Jill has. Jill and her family are wonderful.

So yeah, they've watched Dax and they get along great and I trust her 100%. As far as anyone else watching my child, that is a big no. How do you feel like how many of your cousins are married? Oh gosh. Like half of them at least. And do they all meet their spouses through this church? Or like how are they able to integrate this very extreme religion into these people's lives? Yeah, so they believe that like the dads are kind of like the secret agents.

They go out and like find the women or the daughters and the dads get together and then are like, oh, I've got a daughter. I've got a son or I've got a son, I've got whatever. And it's kind of like arranged marriages. And then they court. Many of your cousins are married to people they've been arranged with? I mean, to an extent, it's like he like sets them up. And then whatever happens happens, but it's courtship.

So you can't kiss until you're married. Can you imagine that? No, I can't imagine about her and send me up with anyone. Right, no, exactly. No, I don't have to be like, I don't think so. He asked, my uncle asked if he could, if he could set up for me when I was like 19. And I was like, no. And I told him, I was like, I don't want a vanilla cupcake.

Like, I need someone who's lived some life that can like push back and like, tell me no. And I found it in the one that, you know, made fun of me. Because like your, Jim Dab doesn't, allegedly doesn't believe in. TV, correct? Yeah. So TV, the TV world is sinful and evil and movies and movies and oh yeah, nothing. Music in general. Music in general, if there's an offbeat, any kind of offbeat is considered like demonic. And how many of your cousins do you feel like watch TV, movies and listen to music? Probably like all of them. No. No, they're very obedient. Like very obedient. I remember. You really think they all are and not pretending to be? No.

You don't think some of them, all of them at least have like one vice? I mean, I don't, I don't think them like secretly watching The Bachelor. Like, I don't, I don't think they're doing that. But they don't have, they don't have TV. They don't have anything like that. Now, I'm not saying the ones that moved out, they might. Who knows? But I remember when they came to my house one time and they were watching their own show at my house.

And we had, they watched their own show. They were allowed to watch their own show. And everyone was in the living room. You know, everyone on the ground. everyone just hanging out and one big family and everyone was talking so much that we forgot that there was a commercial that was shown and it was a body wash commercial oh my gosh you would have thought like something terrible has happened the little girls are crying um we had to put a sheet over the TV during commercials how do they go out in the real world um okay billboards good question

yeah so yeah it's right when you think about it like for a mall they refused to go to malls They would go to the beach at night to like to not see nakedness, which is bathing suits and, you know, all the things. They also had a secret word called Nike, like the shoes. And anytime, no, listen, any time that there was anything that was ungodly, disruptive, anything that was really bad for their eyes, the oldest daughters. They would go Nike and they would go Nike and it was like an army. They would go like straight down and they were not allowed to look up until given the clear. That's no lie.

And that happened everywhere. It doesn't happen on the show? Probably. Probably so. You need to look up Nike. I'm telling you. The Nike word. Yeah.

It happened everywhere. Everywhere. It didn't matter what it was. Did any of them ever come to you curious about a life outside of, yes. I taught the girls like. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

They would say, they would see like little like, I don't know, like little glimpses like at Walmart with like the TV shows like movies are playing. You know, like on the TV. And they'd be like, Amy, what show is that? What is that? And then I would teach the girls' like secret cheerleading on trampolines, trying to just trying to like introduce them to like the real world outside of what they've known. I was the one that bought them their first hair straightener because they weren't allowed

to like cut their hair or anything. And I was like, okay. And so he finally, my uncle finally allowed that. It was just crazy. You know, I was a normal girl. And yet they couldn't do half the things that I did. I know. It is wild.

food. Are there any like weird rules around food? No, they could have anything and they ate like junk food and like not not not the greatest quality of food for sure. They couldn't go to Taco Bell, but they could eat Taco Bell. Right. Yeah, pretty much. They liked ramen noodles a lot because it was cheap. They had a lot of kids. I'm sure, I mean growing up, did you have any ramen noodles? Sure. Okay, yeah. Yeah. So there was 19 kids. So like that was easy. Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever, I mean, so many people who are victims of any type of abuse. Obviously, there's always this period where they, again, they're in denial. They're hiding it from the outside world. And then many victims feel a sense of guilt once they come out and come clean and are honest with themselves or just

start to heal, especially if there's other victims included. Did you ever experience that in terms of like once you finally like had the epiphany of what was you were really experiencing and then of feeling any type of shame and guilt unfairly and and how did you work through that yeah i absolutely kind of like took it all in and i was like is it really that bad like are you sure i can't just like forgive and move on and and like invite them back and like have christmas with them and birthdays and the things that i'm missing you know i was like do it really do i really have to do that And then I had to think about my son and how abuse isn't a word in their dictionary. It's not something that's defined in the IBLP. They don't know what the word abuse means. They have no idea. And so the fact I always just put myself and my son, you know, in that kind of area and with those kind of people. And I think like I'm not going to put him near harm. Like I refuse. I will do everything in my power not to do that. And it stops me every single time from like reaching out or trying to just, you know, condone the behavior or, like, I refuse. like get rid of the lies and just forget about them and move on and just

pretend like everything's happy and shiny but at this point I'm I'm just I'm done pretending you know for you yeah thank you do you think they'll any of any people in the family will try to get back on TV oh I'm sure I mean I'm sure I don't know if it would happen but do you think they love a second they love yes they do you think they feel a certain way that they've pretty much lost all respect from anyone I feel like the, you know, the nation kind of sees through the Dugger family at this point. Yeah. I mean, I think pride goes before a fall. And I think they definitely took a pretty large, large, large fall. But I have no idea how they feel. I mean, I haven't spoken to them in years. So I'm just looking at it now from like an outside opinion.

But I found out all about the scandals like through national television. I was to say, I want to, yeah, if you're like scrolling on. Yeah, I was, I saw a magazine just. in the aisle, you know, at the store, and I, like, like, looked, like, zeroed in on it. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's my family's house. Like, what is happening? Other than Josh's crimes, what are the other things that have come out about them? I mean, that's pretty much it. Okay.

But it was just the fact of, like, the girls weren't protected. Right. Do you feel like they were like, you know, like nowadays you have influencers and parent influencers, you know, Natalie and I have her own conversations, you know, when River was born we were these like very excited parents and we have this this platform and you know we were showing her face and things like that and we you know we influence at times or whatever and you know we try to have our own boundaries and rules with what we want to do and certainly everyone has their opinion right but knowing full well like i know everyone if you look you know anyone who looks for their

phone you know especially if you're any type of influencer have like a social following you know the world of we're in a selfie age and we are if you're very honest with what your your photo photo looks like you might have like 20 selfies before you post the one that you like right and when you think about that and you see these parent influencers out there and and people who are showing their kids on any type of public platform knowing you're talking about like just again there's you know it might be a reality TV show, but like you might have to repeat things and do things over. What is your opinion about what you see out there and parent influencers who like, you know, it's just like, there are certain things I'll see and I'll be like, I know that kid had to do that 50 times

before they got it right, you know, where kids are repeating lines and doing bits. Yeah, lip syncing. Yeah. I've seen that. I don't like it. And you know that these parents are monetizing. And even even if they are setting up some kind of college fund for their kids, it's just like, it feels a really icky to do. Yeah, what do you think about all that? So, Daxton models for Sam's Club. He's like a part of the modeling world. It's kind of crazy.

But yeah, but I tell him like, hey, this is up to you. If you want to do it, great. If not, we can stop anytime. It's all up to you. And he's like, okay, no, I like it. I like having a job. And so we actually like have that money for his college. and whatever he would like to do when he gets older.

And that money's not being spent, not one dime. So, which is great. But, yeah, as far as, like, Instagram and all that, I am so conflicted because I obviously want to show him because he's my son and I'm proud. And then I also want to keep him safe. And I have to go, it's hard to believe that there's, like, sick monsters out there that, you know, want to look at our kids in a really sick way. I think there's, like, whatever you post of your child, like, that's someone's interest.

You know? And it's like you scroll on TikTok and you see these videos and you see the amount of like saves that a video of like a kid has. And it's like that just can't be good. That can't be good. We would run into people in public and they'd be like, I recognized River. And we were like, okay. Okay. Yeah. So we stopped. Do you guys put a heart on her face now? We started recently. We would, yeah, we only post the back of her head. Or I zoom in a lot on photos and like we'll just crop her head out of it. I've been talking about that. We don't want to keep Daxon in a bubble. We don't want him to like live in a bubble, but it is our, you know, our job to protect. It's tough, right? Because it's not to criticize anyone who's not covering. Yeah, well, I'm not at the moment.

Yeah. But it's like it's a, yeah. And there's so many times we'll take a video or a photo of her. And we like, we want to share it. You know, you want to share it. Because it's so cute and fun. And then I will get, you know, when I do post a photo of the back of her head or whatever, I'll get a couple of messages being like, I miss seeing her sweet. face. And I'm like, well, that's not helping.

Well, that's, yeah. You shouldn't miss seeing my child. Like, sorry. That's just like validating. And I bet 99% of them are well-intentioned, lovely people. But there is a little level of discomfort because I definitely, you know, I'm a child of the 80s and all the predators that are online. They're not in the streets. And it's, what's crazy is nowadays, like, you know, you don't, you never hear about parents laying their kids like ride their bike a few miles to their friend's house. Never. I did that as a kid.

Oh, it's changed completely. And I did too. I like to think I was outside. And then I'm like, yeah, I don't think so. Yeah. So before I wrote this book, Daxson had his own Instagram because he modeled. He did stuff. I posted it.

I will tell you he had like 65,000 followers. And I thought like, oh, that's really cute. That's fun. And then I was like, dang. I hate this. And here's the thing. want to delete what was there, but I put it on private. And I spent, no kidding, you guys. I probably unfollowed 300 to 400 people a night. Like, I made it at homework for me. I was like,

I know I've got till this amount of time to get all of this done, but I didn't want to delete the memories and stuff. So I took my time. I deleted 65,000 people. And then I put it, I was like, I'm not kidding. It was crazy. Dylan thought I was nuts. But I was like, I want to protect him every way I can. And so I did that on his Instagram. And now looking back at like the things I post, I'm like, oh, I got to watch it. Because you just never know. It's hard. It's so hard. And it's the world has changed. And it's so, you know, so many opinions out there. And you don't ever know really what's, you know, you think like, oh, this is only going to like my friends. I know. You know. Yeah. I think like only like there's good. I know there's terrible people.

But in my inner circle, there's good people. You know, there's like, J.D. in people. And so you think like everyone is. And it's really sad that it's just, it is so hard. I feel that as a mom. I do. I'm sorry, Natalie. I'm right there with you. Yeah, it's hard. Well, Amy, I appreciate your time. This has been a lot of fun. Was it, was it as scary as you thought? No, we could do this anytime. Well, your book is called Holy Disruptor. It'll be out October 14th. I'm assuming you can pre-order now wherever you pre-order books. And I know, first well, that pre-orders Matter. So if you want to support Amy, get your hands on this book. It's very fascinating. I know everyone who's listening to the show is fascinated with this type of content. It's an

incredible story and one that is also filled with hope and kind of endurance. And we all have some sort of baggage that we have to work through. And so we can disrupt it and have a peaceful life. Thank you for sharing your story, Amy. Thanks for having me. That was great. Goodbye. You know,