The Viall Files - E1011 Ask Nick - Get a Lawyer and Leave

Starting point is 00:00:00 How's it going? Hi, I'm Renee. I'm 29, and my husband gives me the ick. I need out. What do I do? So, like, you want to get a divorce? Yes. So I did write in a couple months ago, and since then, I have filed.

Starting point is 00:00:26 Okay. And yeah, so basically when he responded, because it gives you 30 days to respond, I kind of got a pit in my stomach when he finally did sign it. And I wasn't expecting to feel that. But I have many reasons why I do want a divorce. So I'm just making sure I am doing the right thing when I have two young kids with him. So to be clear, what I can potentially help you with is either validate your decision or give you caution right all right how did he take the news i just before we get started i'm curious how he took the news so it the word divorce has been like part of our vocabulary especially his and like any um minor inconvenience or fight like it would always lead to

Starting point is 00:01:16 well then let's get a divorce and like i don't know after hearing that so many times i was just kind of like you know what we probably should um it's not normal to be talking about it this much And yeah, when I finally told him, he didn't, I told him the day before I was going to file. And then when I told him, I filed the next day, he like couldn't believe it. He didn't think I would actually do it. So wait, you said I want a divorce. I'm going to file tomorrow. Well, no, it was a lot leading up to that.

Starting point is 00:01:43 Probably like the prior month from there. I was like hinting that like, I don't think this is right. And I would ask him like, what are reasons? Like you think we should stay together. it would never be like any good reasons besides like we have kids and which is a great reason but well yeah yeah but if i'm not happy then i don't know um so basically yeah he just didn't take it well he didn't take it well no did you try to convince you to change your mind kind of so he had me talked to one of his family members on the phone i guess she didn't realize how much i had thought about

Starting point is 00:02:17 this and thought about every outcome and um so that was his like kind of first way to try to get me to stay, I guess. And when I talked to her, she was like, oh, you know, it sounds like you really have your mind made up. Like I didn't realize, you know, it was this far long. Or I don't think he thought it was this far long either, even though we talked about it every day, literally every fight. And yeah, so then like there'd be times where he would be begging me. Like there is, I tell him he put on a performance because it's what it felt like him trying to basically try to get me to stay with him. And I didn't, I don't know. I was just like not feeding into it. And then the next day it would be like the silent treatment.

Starting point is 00:02:52 he wouldn't try at all he'd be like you know it is a good idea and i'm like okay um but he was refusing to sign for 30 days and then after the 20th day of asking him to sign i basically i was like you know what whatever he'll sign when he can sign so he signed on 30th day and then that's when i was like oh wait but and then the next day i'm like no i do want to leave him still so it's just it's just hard so when you say my husband gives me the ick like yeah so are you both toxic people? I don't think, I mean, he would say otherwise. I don't think I am. But you think he is. Yeah, I'm sure I have like toxic tendency. I don't know. I've just had a curiosity. Just short answer. What do you think makes him toxic, but you're not? Just our past. Like we've been together for six

Starting point is 00:03:40 years, married for three. There were so many red flags when I met him, um, controlling. Didn't want me to go out, which, you know, I was 23 still. I kind of want to go out. I also was bartending when he me. Wait, when you say, you're still 23, but you, like, you're, how old do you know? I'm 29 now. But I'm just saying, like, when I was 23, like, of course I wanted to go out. Like, I don't want to now. I have kids.

Starting point is 00:04:03 But, like, I don't know, I just, there were things that we'd fight about. He'd call me names, every name in the book. Stuff that, like, I just can't get over. And as I'm getting older, I realize, like, how wrong so many of our fights were, just like how he would treat me. And we did break up at one point around the three-year mark. What would he say about you? Oh, he would say, I mean.

Starting point is 00:04:22 I don't know. It's just been a toxic relationship, truly, like, from, I guess, both ends, but, like, honestly, the first half of a relationship with me, like, begging him to just even hang out with me. And, like, I just couldn't understand why he was calling me all these names and why he was acting this way. And truly, like, I don't think I, I guess I was toxic in a sense because I stayed, like, I stayed around. And then we moved in quickly, like, after I met him. So we just moved really fast. And then I looked at him, like, he was this put together, a 30-year-old guy, he seemed so much older than me at the time but like how old's he now 37 so i don't know i just i want to make sure i'm making the right choice our fights really would get so out of hand and like

Starting point is 00:05:07 there'd be times where you know we wouldn't talk for two months when we live in the same house because of his silent treatments like crazy and like i've gone to my parents house to stay with them do you think he's emotionally abusive oh yeah i think yeah for sure i mean the First, like, yeah, five years of our relationship, absolutely. And then, like, the last year, I've been, like, really thinking about what I want. And I'm like, I know it's not this. Like, I know there's better out there someone who wouldn't treat me this way. And, like, he calls me names sometimes in front of my kids.

Starting point is 00:05:38 And, like, I just don't like that. So, yeah, I don't know. So these aren't really X. Well, I don't want to be intimate with him. And, like, I was, like, trying to figure out why. I wouldn't want to be intimate with someone who called me a name, too, or belittle me or disrespecting me in front of my children. I mean, that's...

Starting point is 00:05:55 Yeah, and like, the last time I went... And ick is me tripping over myself and now they're going, that was gross. Yeah, right. You know. But, like, everything he would do would just, like, I'm, like, grossed out. And I'm like, why am I so grossed out? And I'm, like, trying to think. And, like, March was the last time I had to stay at my parents because he told me

Starting point is 00:06:11 to leave. So I packed up my two kids left with my parents. And this is an example. He was begging for me to come home. Please don't come home. Please don't come home. I mean, please come home. place at home and I'm like okay you know what I stayed for a week at my parents and then I get back and he

Starting point is 00:06:28 prints out separation papers so like it's just how fast his mind changes and he has separation papers waiting for me here sign these and I'm like you were just begging me to come home like four days ago and now I'm here and now you have to like switch up and print out separation papers I don't know he's just making me out to be the villain um and you know I explained to the family member that he had me call like all these reasons all these fights um over the years just have built up i just resent him completely part of why i get icked out uh and yeah i don't know i feel like it's just there's six years of it so it's hard to like give you great examples without give you give me some good examples i mean it just um i mean you're describing

Starting point is 00:07:15 someone who kind of sucks yeah like when there's no connection like there's no bond anymore Like, I don't think, I don't know if there ever was, before we got married, like two weeks before, he was saying he doesn't want to be with me, calling me names. That was two weeks before. And, like, I was fully ready to text everyone, like, hey, we're not getting married anymore. It was a quick put-together wedding. I was six months pregnant. And I just felt like we had to be married. But, like, our wedding day didn't feel like great.

Starting point is 00:07:43 It felt wrong. And, yeah, I don't know. It just hasn't been good. I don't, you know, I don't, you're not giving me a reason to say. say maybe you should stay. I mean, you're describing a situation that I wouldn't want for myself or like, you know, like, you know, because you described it as like, oh, I have the ick for my husband. So like, I was half expecting you to just be like, I love him and he's a nice guy and all. But like, I don't know. I just like, I want more for myself. Or, you know, I just don't feel like I'm able to

Starting point is 00:08:13 like, you know, live for myself. But he's a good dad. And like, you know, like, we're okay. and like, I know, we don't have the best sex life. And, like, I don't know, sometimes he's a little icky, but, like, I was, I wasn't sure if I was going to get that, you know, in that case, well, it's like, okay, well, let's, let's look at the big picture here. And is there a path forward to, like, get more connected? But, like, you're describing someone who's emotionally abusive. Again, not a therapist, and I'm not in a position to diagnose anyone.

Starting point is 00:08:41 But, like, I wouldn't want that, I wouldn't want what you're describing for my sister or my daughter. He's emotionally volatile. regardless, you know, whatever you are doing or not doing. I think even the healthiest of couples are capable of really hurting each other. Yeah. Especially of the course of a marriage. But when there's real love there, it really hurts that person to especially come to grips, even if in moments of like, you know, maybe sometimes people like, you know, they act out

Starting point is 00:09:10 because of their childhood trauma or whatever, you know, which is like become so cliche these days, it seems like. But nevertheless, there's truth to it. Yeah. And maybe they could act out. over a period of time where like, you know, you were a real dick to me for three months or whatever. But there's a snapping out of it, so to speak. And that realization of that person who realized how much they've really been mistreating or hurting their partner, there is like,

Starting point is 00:09:36 I'm, you know, a real act of contrition and a real sense of like, you know, guilt and a hope of this person to work through it and you haven't said that your husband begged you to like tried to work on things he just begged you not to leave it sounds like yeah for sure like we can't have a deep conversation ever like it's just not he's not capable of it and i've tried which also makes things difficult like we just don't have that bond and like i'm just so emotionally disconnected from him but i will say he's a good dad he is a really good dad which really makes me feel better when it comes to my kids to why i mean like it doesn't can't be that good of it dad if he talks to his kid's mother i know like it was literally jala no it was end of june we had we were like on the

Starting point is 00:10:27 way home from vacation and he was calling me the most disgusting names in front of them it's not that good of a dad yeah so i'm like i just don't want this and like i conditioned myself to just like not react anymore which has been nice because i used to like get emotional about it and i don't know like i'll beg him to have deep conversations, not necessarily, like, say that flat out, but I'll try to. And it just doesn't happen. And he makes, like, jokes out of everything. Like, he just can't be serious. And, yeah, I don't know. But he would try to be intimate all the time. And I would just get, like, I don't know. It just made me so uncomfortable. And, like, sometimes I would cave, but, like, it would just be the most uncomfortable situation to where I would have, like, a panic attack.

Starting point is 00:11:08 Like, literally. Do you ever feel like he's been sorry for hurting you emotionally? Um, no. I don't because he doesn't think he did anything wrong. So I don't know. Give me an example of a disgusting thing he said to you or called you. A stupid fucking comment in a dumb fucking bitch. That was in. And so regardless of what you did, he's not sorry? No.

Starting point is 00:11:30 No. Like I would even say like, you said that in front of my kids and he'd be like, well, you said this. And like, all I wanted him to do was help me clean my kids off when you're in this hotel room. Like, they had spaghetti. I wanted to help clean them off. And he like went off. So stuff like that. Like when we were on, like when I was first pregnant with my first,

Starting point is 00:11:50 we traded in my car, got a new car and we weren't married yet. So it's not considered marital property. We were on the way home and we start fighting and he starts calling me all these names. And he's like, well, guess what? You don't have a car anymore. And he would just always hold the house over my head, the car over my head. Like. So just out of curiosity, when you were like second guessing your decision to get divorced what part were you second guessing other than the kids the fact that it's easier and financially easier and like the name calling isn't as bad as it used to be because i'm not the one who's like begging him to like hang out with me anymore i'm not i just don't care anymore like i truly yeah i mean this isn't a life you know i mean i don't know what

Starting point is 00:12:33 you're describing sounds pretty bad it sounds like you're a prisoner an emotional prisoner yeah i mean and this is coming from a person like since being a dad I am so grateful of the relationship Nellie and I have and work on and that we both care very much and value our relationship to the degree that we can be parents and what we can provide for our daughter. And I feel that from her and I think she feels that from me. Yeah. And I think parents and couples should do whatever they can to make it work for the family unit because it's so precious. But what you're describing is a very helpless situation where there doesn't seem to be much of a path forward.

Starting point is 00:13:14 And it sounds like you're dealing with someone who, again, not a therapist, but sounds kind of emotionally abusive and mean, that is not a safe and healthy environment for anyone. Right. And you're only 29. My fear is that I'm going to stick it out and then wake up 10 years from now and be 40 and then, like, I have to start over then. Yeah, that's not my fear for, you already filed for divorce. I mean, I'm, you're not going to hear from me.

Starting point is 00:13:41 me, maybe you should reconsider, sounds like you made the right decision. I think you're not fear for you, but like advice I would give you is like definitely take some time to heal. I think people who are prone to sticking in these types of relationships that you have stuck with for much longer than it sounds like you should have, I think are prone to like attract those types of men. And I think you have some healing to do. And I think you should, you know, work on yourself and be very mindful of the men that you date when you are single. And his type of behavior in volatility, I think you've become way too comfortable with. Like how what, you know, no one listening is, is like, well, maybe she's, I don't know, like maybe she should stay. You know, like nothing you are

Starting point is 00:14:32 saying. It sounds horrific what you're dealing with, right? But you have normalized it. You've become numb to it. You are capable of surviving through it. And I would want you to look into that. I think you might be prone to feeling a spark with toxic men. I hope not. Well, many of us are we, I think we're all capable of that. And I think someone who might present is healthy, might come across to you is unexciting. Yeah, boring. I was worried about that, too. And for the sake of yourself and your kids, I would, I would be very careful about who you date.

Starting point is 00:15:12 Yeah. Like when I think about it, I'm like, oh, I'm totally ready to like date like now because I've been so over this relationship for so long. And I've just like stuck through it. But I do realize that I shouldn't do that probably and figure other things out first. But I don't know. It's just been a long time coming. And I've always known it would eventually end. I just didn't know when.

Starting point is 00:15:33 And I feel like once I've been. I've become more like financially dependent on my own because it used to be him telling me that I all have nothing and no one will want me and everyone hates me and all this stuff. I think you're him signing it and you getting the, oh my, ooh, I think that is a normal reaction. I don't think that means that you made the wrong decision. I just think it's your real, I guess.

Starting point is 00:15:56 Yeah, it's becoming real and that can be scary. You are entering into the unknown. That's scary. And in your case, as crazy as it sounds, especially maybe to the people listening, this is your normal. And you know, I've just learned to not react to it anymore. I would literally just let him say, what do you need to say?

Starting point is 00:16:16 Say all his names. And I would just, like, look at him until he's done. Like, when I used to be crying and, like, begging him to stop calling me names, I've completely, like, shifted. Did you make that clear to whoever called you on his behalf, how he treats you? Are other people aware of that? Yeah, I completely made it aware.

Starting point is 00:16:33 And then the fun part is that. Well, she acted like she understood and then I, it was probably like a week after I filed and he was drunk, passed out on the couch and his phone was just like sitting there on the counter nicely. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm going to peek through it just for fun to see like. That's your toxic trait. I know, I know. And I've done that many times. But I always find something out when I look at it. So like, why would, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:16:59 Anyway, so I see a group conversation between two of his family members and him. I was expecting to see, like, friends talking bad about me, like, you know, group chat, guys. No, I didn't see that. It was his family, and they were basically, like, he was just lying after lie after lie. Like, I'm emotionally unstable. His family was like, is she even emotionally stable enough to care for those kids? Her family is white trash. And they're not.

Starting point is 00:17:31 So, like, I don't know. and he would just say stuff like such an like they just had nothing to grasp onto so like they were just pulling from everywhere and they're like he said that she buys all these processed foods and like it's just bizarre like just bizarre what are you doing to protect yourself do you have a good lawyer so that's another thing oh and they were also trying to say that they want me to like not have any rights to my kids and I'm like that's just crazy and when I read these I was like shaking because they were just so insane and saying stuff like i'm gonna hate my kids one day i'm gonna blame them for how my life turned out like just like crazy crazy all because i don't

Starting point is 00:18:12 want to be with him like literally all because i know yeah i mean well he's also like they don't know you they know him like he's painting a picture you know so like it's not yeah i thought they knew me which was like kind of sad because i thought we had like decent relationship i thought i had a decent relationship with both of them but family you know divorce i guess brings out everyone's true But do you have a lawyer? Okay, so I, he made it clear before I filed, mind you. This was him saying he wants a divorce for so long. We might as well not do lawyers.

Starting point is 00:18:43 Like, let's not put the kids through that and it'll be way longer of a process. Literally have, he literally said this. And then when I file, he's like texting his family. I can't believe she doesn't want a lawyer. Like, why isn't she want lawyers? And it's just so sketchy to me. She's up to something like something doesn't sound right. And I brought that to him.

Starting point is 00:19:02 I'm like, you were the one that say you didn't want lawyers. You're the one to put the idea in my head. And like the only reason it sounds good is because it can be done quicker. And like, I don't think you should trust this person. I know. I know. All my family is like, why aren't getting a lawyer? Every one of them.

Starting point is 00:19:15 But then I'm over here. Like, I can be free of him way sooner if we just. I just, do you trust him not to like screw you over financially? Um, I'm sure he will. Like, I'm not trying to get like our house was put into his name 20 days before we married so it's technically not marital property but i could probably get portion of the house given i was already pregnant and i lived in that house two years prior well i don't know what state you're in but you definitely have some rights i mean yeah i don't think you should trust this guy i don't

Starting point is 00:19:43 you know yeah he thinks i deserve nothing i don't even deserve a car i'm like just trying to figure out all on my own be honest i do think it might be a mistake to do that so i i i yeah stop making poor decisions for yourself yeah and stop trusting this guy he's giving you every And again, like, you're doing the thing. It's like, you know, I go through his phone. I find something every time. Like, stop going through his phone. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:05 And then start accepting the fact that you can't trust him. Yeah. Like, validating yourself by going through his phone isn't the way to learn that lesson, you know, justifying going through his phone. It's to stop believing his bullshit and then just go protect yourself. Either you both share a lawyer that represents you both. in divorce court, it is legally bound to, like, do what's right for both of you through some

Starting point is 00:20:32 kind of mediation or you get a lawyer. But, like, trusting that he's not going to fuck you over and not getting any type of representation. Yeah. It's definitely not the way to go. I know. Like, my biggest hurdle right now is I need a car. So, like, right, you know, he's already said that I'm not getting a car and I'm not, he's not giving me money for a car. And I'm like, it's like, you have rights. Yeah. Exercise those rights. I know. It's just, scary don't wait to find out i mean like i don't just like don't wait to find out that he's going to fuck you over i did talk with a lawyer and she was basically i don't know if they're supposed to be so cold or what but she was kind of and the main thing i kind of wanted was well lawyers aren't there

Starting point is 00:21:14 to be your friends they're there to be your legal representation and this like ensure you of your rights and your decisions and give you advice based off of a lack of emotion because you are vulnerable right now because you have share kids together and you might have empathy for him for whatever reason. And it's their job to like take that out of it. You can get a lawyer and still have the goal to be as fair as he's willing to be. And you can have a lawyer there to when he chooses not to be fair to protect you when he chooses to try to fuck you over. Right. When I found out from the lawyer because I was like I wanted primary custody and she's like well if he's good dad like you're not getting that like it'll be 50 50 and then that's when I was like okay I don't really care about anything

Starting point is 00:22:02 else like I don't need his money like whatever like I'll get child support and you know a little bit of alimony barely but um and that's fine I mean I'm not saying you should just go after the guy I just yeah I wouldn't no I definitely am selling myself short I wouldn't trust him yeah I know I wouldn't trust him he he has proven to be spiteful and resentful and to want to make you pay for hurting him. You know, you deciding to file for divorce is hurting him, whether it's not in a way that like you should feel sorry, but maybe his ego or whatever, you know. Yeah. And I don't think you should trust a person who has shown you a capability to retaliate over nothing, to be kind to you when you're going to divorce him. Yeah. And like now

Starting point is 00:22:51 we're in this like weird position where he's like, kind of trying and I don't know if he knows I'm still going through with it or like I don't. What is kind of trying? Getting me food and not anything. He needs to he needs to acknowledge like I've been a terrible husband. I've been cruel to you and I've treated you with disrespect and I've and I need to work. I have anger issues to work and I mean if it does he needs to like acknowledge all that. He's told me before that I know his triggers and that's what that's still blaming.

Starting point is 00:23:23 blaming you. That's still making your fault. I know. Like, I'm always blamed for him calling me names, always. It's, I have issues that I need to work on, and I've disrespected you. Yeah. And if he can't, I mean, there's no path forward unless he even starts there. And if he, I mean. And he doesn't think he did anything wrong. So it just won't ever happen. So I would, if I were you, I would take advantage of the fact that he still hopes there's a chance and he's being nice. and you should go get legal representation while he is, because once he knows you're going to follow through, I would expect this guy to get pretty vicious.

Starting point is 00:24:00 Okay, yeah, I know. And if I did just, if we did just do the one hearing and be divorced, then you can still do that and get a lawyer. Yeah. You can say, as long as he's willing to not fuck me over, I want to move, I want to expedite this. And I thought about I could represent myself and be like, I know.

Starting point is 00:24:19 No. I know. I know. It sounds crazy. Even lawyers who aren't divorced lawyers don't represent themselves. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, I know.

Starting point is 00:24:29 I learned this early in life. Being cheap can get really expensive. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good point. Protect yourself. Protect your kids. I just, the messier. He is going to get vicious.

Starting point is 00:24:41 Yeah. And messy if he, if once he thinks you're serious, whatever kind, the person you're describing, whatever kindness you're your experience right now is not going to last once as long as if he doesn't get what he wants i know and like he can never give me a good reason why we should stay together and it's just like reason he needs to own i know he doesn't want to get divorced yeah that's that's his reason he doesn't want to pay child support he doesn't want to like do all that and i get like he probably doesn't want to you know be separated from his kids he's not you know he doesn't want to be a husband he just wants to have a wife yeah no he wants to

Starting point is 00:25:17 keep his wife as his wife without saying he's divorced and because he's clearly shown to be a guy who's capable of not being a husband right he just doesn't want to be divorced because having a wife hasn't stopped him from doing like do you think he's been faithful to you i do but something we like fought for for like at least a whole year was that his friends aren't so i like couldn't get past that it was pretty bad and he thought he didn't see anything wrong with that and yeah chances are So I don't know. Who knows? I know. I know. That's what I couldn't get over. I'm like, there's no way that you're friends with these people and you're fine with it, but you don't do it yourself. Yeah, I right after that period was when I broke up with him. But then we got back together

Starting point is 00:26:01 right away and got pregnant. So I've just been going to get a lawyer. I think you should get a lawyer. I know. That's my advice to you. Yeah. I would not take his word for it. And again, you can still be very kind, unproblematic and try to expedite this divorce with a lawyer. I'm just scared once I bring a lawyer into it. It's gonna be like 10 times messier and he's gonna like try to screw me over somehow that way because he has like legal help now. Having a lawyer, a good lawyer who can, it's their job to protect you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:27 Like what would his lawyer do? What if his lawyer was like way meaner than mine? What is more like you, what do you think is more likely that you don't get a lawyer and the person who has years and hundreds of examples of being spiteful and incredibly cruel to you when he has been slightly triggered is going to do when he finds out that you are actually gonna move forward with this divorce and that you're going to leave him.

Starting point is 00:27:00 Yeah, I think it'll get like all weird and messy. You think he's just gonna be like, you know what? I don't want this to get messy. I don't wanna hurt her, you know, that's not, it's not, he is, it's not, it's not gonna happen. And like I was even like, Trying to get him to just admit that, like, he... And why is you getting a lawyer, like, you know...

Starting point is 00:27:21 You can say, talk to my lawyer, but, like, I... Just because I think it's mainly... You can just be like, listen, I want to move things. I want to exploit things, but, you know, talk to my lawyer. Yeah. It's just the drawn-out process of it. Like, I just know it's going to take so long. Because unless he just doesn't fight on anything and...

Starting point is 00:27:38 A lawyer is there to do what you want them to do. You don't have to necessarily take their advice. So, like, just because you get a lawyer doesn't mean you're going to drag it out. You don't have to... have to it's not like you're acting as if you're going to hire a lawyer and then you're you will cease to be able to want to expedite this because your lawyer's going to say no we're going to drag this out yeah and that's yeah they don't have to do that you can be like listen as long as they play ball and as long as he's not um I just want to make sure that I I want you to make sure

Starting point is 00:28:08 that I don't get fucked over and that he doesn't like try to pull one over me because I I'm being naive but if he's willing to like expedite this i don't want i don't want to take him i don't want i don't want what i don't deserve and even if i do deserve things honestly i'd rather move things forward faster than worry about like getting everything i can and as long as he doesn't fuck me over that's what i want and that's their job to facilitate that no that's true i know i could definitely i'm worried about the money part like i know i could do it it's just like i don't know I know I would probably come out with more money than I pay for the lawyer, obviously. If I don't do it, I'll be getting nothing because he thinks I deserve nothing.

Starting point is 00:28:53 Yeah, you should get a lawyer. That's the only, that's my one advice to you. Yeah. Okay. I guess I'll do that. Protect yourself. It's scary. I know.

Starting point is 00:29:03 Listen, this whole thing is scary. I think it's much more scarier for you to trust him. Right. It is. I know. I don't know why I was thinking I could. I mean, listen, you've been through hell, it sounds like. And I think you really are a victim of this guy's, you know, behavior.

Starting point is 00:29:20 I feel bad for, like, my past self because I'm like, I just was begging this guy to, like, treat me like. Yeah, but now you've got to start making good, just like, listen, you've made, it's not your fault that he's been an asshole, but I think you have looked the other way and made way too many excuses and you've made some bad choices for yourself. Since the beginning, yeah. but it can whenever you're you're only 29 and it can stop but start making good choices and that starts with hugh getting a lawyer yeah you're right i know everyone tells me i should well thank you all right sorry about this no okay and i just can't wait for it to be over it'll be nice even though i'll have like sad days and i'll be like for sure but but i think leaving any situation would be sad in some way i don't know if you don't

Starting point is 00:30:12 I don't get a lawyer. I think you run the risk of this guy doing something where he can throw something in your face or have some kind of power over you and make it feel like you still have to fucking deal with him. Right now, you are trusting him to do something he's never shown you the ability to do in your entire marriage and you're going to expect him to do it when you're asking him for a divorce. That's insanity. Right. You're right. I know. I did it. I'm all I do have a consultation on the 25th, but I do have one that I could like... Move it up. I already had a consultation with.

Starting point is 00:30:44 And don't give him the heads up. Yeah. Great. All right. All right. I'm sorry. Oh, no worries. Yeah, you're only 29.

Starting point is 00:30:53 You're, you got to, it's all about your future. Yeah. Get through this. I feel old. Yeah. You're not. I know you feel old because you've never been this old, but you still got a lot going for you. And once you do get divorced, I would heal a little bit.

Starting point is 00:31:07 and be very mindful of the men who excite you. Yeah, like, I feel like I could pick out the red flags instantly just because I've put up with it for so long, but maybe it would have the opposite effect. I don't know. Like, I don't know. It makes you have a good support system. Yeah, for sure.

Starting point is 00:31:26 You know, that white trash family of yours. I know. I know. Crazy. Yeah, she texted me when she found out that I read their personal text or something. and went off like went off she went off on you crazy like calling me uneducated you know okay like I don't know um calling me white trash my family's white trash just like going off talking about how great her family is like there was just so unnecessary and I just wasn't

Starting point is 00:31:57 feeding into it I was very proud of my replies well that's good I didn't just get out man just get out I know it's just like it makes sense why that you guys are related because You can act the same way. That's crazy. All right. Well, thank you so much. All right. Thanks.

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Starting point is 00:36:27 Good. What's your name? I am Sam and I'm 31 years old. How can I help, Sam? I want to know if depression can be a non-negotiable. What do you mean by that? So I think what I need the most help with right now is I'm struggling to, I guess, accept the depression of my partner.

Starting point is 00:36:45 We've been together for a couple of years. And sometimes he has his ups and downs. Sometimes it gets really bad where he will sleep all day. And it can go from like a few days to like maybe a whole month of like low energy. and I'm a very active person. So sometimes that it doesn't match well. I go to my own therapy and I understand also that it's not a thing that I need to fix or I need to save him or anything like that.

Starting point is 00:37:15 I guess I just need help with accepting the fact he's a great partner. And there was a time where I was like, am I going to have to break up with him because this is too much. And I feel like it kind of drains my energy as well. also, I need help with knowing how I can do that. Well, I think the short answer to your question is it definitely can be a non-negotiable. Everyone might not agree with that. And the cold, hard truth of this, this is, I'm assuming not your husband and you don't have

Starting point is 00:37:49 children together? No, no. We're actually moving in together in a month. Understood. But nevertheless, there's a big difference between being engaged, moving in. together and being married and or with having children too because well marriage doesn't have to be forever but at least it requires lawyers and kids are and you are whether you like them or not connected to that person for at least 18 years and often a lifetime if you share

Starting point is 00:38:18 children and that is just changes the calculus and equation of a scenario and my point of saying I'll bring that up is like you know it might seem callous or harsh but like before you choose an entire life with someone if depression again not a therapist and it's not an easy thing to deal with and often from what I know and I know very little it's unpredictable and and there's not there's not much you can do I probably as a partner let along for that you know so it's like something you just have to deal with and depending on the severity of the depression, it might leave you very alone in those times where that person is doing things. And that's one thing to feel alone when you have no one to care about but

Starting point is 00:39:06 yourself. But when you have other responsibilities a la kids or whatever or a mortgage or, you know, a job, then like, you know, that, that's just, that's this, it's much harder to do. and so yeah it might be something where you like hey i love you but i'm not signing up literally a marriage license for that so it can be right so like that's just without knowing any other details i guess again not a therapist and i don't i know i know nothing about yeah i can't speak intelligently on anything about depression other than it sounds like it sucks um but from your point of view what do you know about it and just how at at your partner's lowest how severe is it and how much does it affect you? Yeah. So I do know about depression. I stood at a little

Starting point is 00:39:59 bit of mental health in college. And family and close friends have dealt with it. I've dealt with it myself like probably 10, 15 years ago. And so I think it's also triggering for me because I have that experience. For example, my brother, he went through a really bad depression. And it was really hard seeing him like that. And then also like my dad, one of the of my best friends from college and I think what gets me is like even just like the little thing that's where I'm like okay I need to like pick my bad because sometimes it'll be just facial expressions where it's like oh like it's such a it's such a bad day or whatever and it's like 8 a.m. I'm like okay like we are fine and everything is going to be okay. I think

Starting point is 00:40:46 the answering your question with how it's been affecting us is an example just last month, which again, I just want to say also, I feel like a prick also like sometimes complaining about this because he's going through like a really rough things, but and I know it can be like a taboo topic. But anyway, so- You're not a prick. And I, you know, and again, maybe this is harsh. Maybe people disagree with me. But I just think it's not, you know, like I understand that people, like whether it's like addiction, you know, which, you know, alcoholism is a disease. It's hereditary, right? I understand. and I have empathy for that.

Starting point is 00:41:23 But at some point, like, it's not always a burden or the problem of someone else across it. Other people have to bear. And people have the right to say, you know what, I don't want this in my life. And if you're not my child, I, you know, I don't, sorry, that's, you know, like, is it callous? Maybe, I don't know. But, like, you get one life, you know, and you have a right to not sign up. for something that you have very little over you have very little control to fix and that can greatly negatively impact your quality of life and potentially your children's life if that's

Starting point is 00:42:08 something you want for yourself and sometimes the best decisions we can make for ourselves feel cold to other people you know it doesn't make you a bad person and it doesn't make you a prick. Thanks. Yeah. I, um, yeah. And I think I think where I struggle a lot is I'm not going to say like, I love everything else about him, but he, he is very, he does have a lot of the qualities that I would love in a partner. I do feel loved and safe, safe and, you know, heard and seen and accepted. And all these like wonderful things that I want to feel from a partner. Like just an example is like last month it was which again like very acceptable but it was his um mom's death anniversary that was a tough month where like he he would sleep or sometimes he would do things where

Starting point is 00:43:03 why was his mom's what was it again death anniversary oh his mom's death okay yeah she she passed away last year okay and then understood yes yeah in August and so of course that's very, like, it's very understandable, but I think I struggle with... Is he clinically diagnosed as depressed, or... So, he does see a therapist, and he was seeing a psychiatrist, and he was diagnosed with PTSD. From what? The other thing is he was, he was, um, he had a very abusive relationship from his mom,

Starting point is 00:43:37 uh, from a very young age. So this is also like a struggling relationship to grief. And I do see a lot of progress from his therapy, from his therapy. been extremely slow, but I'm also a very an impatient person. It's just, I feel like that's where we don't. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. And I don't want the right answer. I don't want the nice answer. I just want the honest answer. Do you think sometimes your partner, whether a psychologist would disagree with you or a doctor might say, well, here's why this is wrong and you shouldn't feel this way, but do you feel like your partner uses his sadness or depression or his diagnosed PTSD as a crutch sometimes? Do you feel like he sometimes leans into that

Starting point is 00:44:29 where you would like to see him challenge himself to not, if that makes any sense? Yes. I don't think this, like this is his baseline. Like he does this all the time. or anything like that, but I do, I do think that sometimes he could challenge himself a little bit more with, with things like that, where like, hey, you could have literally like cooked yourself some eggs this morning and not wait all day and to eat, you know, is that what you're asking? I mean, it is obviously this is a very nuanced conversation. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:45:06 And we, we live in a time where I think society is, for a lot of reasons. we're trying to correct some wrongs, I think, as a society and how we have perceived certain things. And we have trying, and I think as a society, we have rightfully tried to give a voice to people who have been victims of a variety of different things, such as any kind of victim, right? And acknowledgement to say, hey, whatever this is that happened to you, it's, I see you, it's not your fault, and I'm sorry this happened to you. And I think that's important as a society we've gotten better at recognize times in which people are victims. I do think overall, we've gone a hundred steps too far by suggesting that once you've become a victim, it is now everyone

Starting point is 00:46:03 else's problem to basically not expect anything from you because because all you have to be like, well, I'm sorry. It's not my fault. And I think there's a big difference between recognizing that as a victim, and I think we've all been victims of various things, you know, like it's on a competition, how much we've been victimized by people, people we love, how we've been hurt, you know. Obviously, there are various, some serious, devastating things that happen to good people out there. But you can be a victim. I think, and still, yeah, you can still challenge yourself. You can still overcome adversity.

Starting point is 00:46:49 And I think sometimes people, it's like victimhood or being a victim, I think has given people a reason not to overcome their adversity. Yeah. And I think it's just a very fine line between validating someone's experience and saying, I'm sorry this happened to you. and do you want to talk about it and I want to acknowledge the pain and make sure you know

Starting point is 00:47:16 this wasn't your fault because so many victims are made to believe it was their fault for a variety of things while simultaneously challenging themselves to move forward and get through it. Not necessarily get over it but get through it because there's a lot

Starting point is 00:47:32 of us who have been victimized and get through it and work through it and work with the therapist and really, and say, I'm not going to let this define me. And I think there is a sense if you feel like there's a part of you that feels like your partner is not challenging himself to get through some of this adversity, not to take away any of the adversity that's happened to him. Or the other things that he has done, I guess, like even just starting therapy.

Starting point is 00:48:02 But I do see what you're saying because I am a person where I reject. the thought of feeling sorry for myself or going through something. And I don't think he does. I think he... There's a comfort in it. I think we can get very used to being, to throwing it, yeah, to feeling sorry for ourselves. I have at times in my life felt sorry for myself. And from my, again, not to compare people's pain or whatever.

Starting point is 00:48:32 And certainly people have experienced far, greater adversity than I ever have or pain. But I, you know, at my lowest, I certainly felt pretty fucking low. And at my post some painful experiences in those moments, I couldn't imagine a more hurtful pain. But I guess what I'm saying is in those mindsets, it's very easy to allow self-pity and feeling sorry for ourselves to justify not wanting to move forward. I've also say, I don't know, I don't know if it's a clinic, but like, depression is a form of self-loathing and focusing on ourselves. Something that's helped with me, and I don't know, I've definitely never been clinically depressed. I've, I've had periods of feeling very sad

Starting point is 00:49:26 and very down and very helpless, but the more I focused on that pain, the worse it got. And the more I started focusing on getting outside of what was going wrong with my life and focused on other people outside of my life and people I wasn't connected to and trying to like be of service to others, the more I felt, the better I felt. At first, like in the beginning of our relationship, he would do a lot of, you know, like, not a lot of it, but when it was those times when he was extremely sad, there was a lot of like feeling sorry for himself and that he couldn't do certain things or if he forgot about I don't know like a date you know or whatever well I was like going through all of this and

Starting point is 00:50:14 I'm sorry that I forgot this time um and now I've seen that he does try to I don't know if I should use this word for like not neglect the relationship and and me but then I struggle with that part of like how do I how can I be a caring partner while at the same time like I can't can't. It's tricky, right? We've all heard the saying, hurt people, hurt people, right? Yeah. And we all agree with that statement. I'm just a huge believer that in almost every situation, I mean, there are just people who have overcome some just fucking horrific things that have happened to them, right? Just truly horrific. Not to get it like deep in the weeds, but like, you know, there are third world countries out, you know, like just there's this like what we

Starting point is 00:51:03 experiences the society and just our charmed lives compared to just like the rest of the world it's fucking crazy right and i just think humans are very resilient and we're in and if we want to be but like i guess my point is if you think that there are certain things that happen to people or us where hey that was horrible and there's nothing they can do about it so we need to we need to simply just acknowledge that they're a hurt person and empathize with their pain and whatever they do like, well, listen, they can't really help it because they're sad or they're depressed or they're hurt. If that's true, it's like, okay, well, if that's the case, then if hurt people, hurt people and the people who are hurt, there's nothing they can do about the pain that they're going through.

Starting point is 00:51:50 Is it safe for other people to rely on them for emotional support, you know, asking your boyfriend to show up or remember a date or, you know, prioritize your needs? Like going forward, is he always going to be able from time to time on the anniversary of his mother's death play the hey for the next month you can't you can't count on me you know yeah that's tough you know i i yeah i wasn't even thinking i mean this is i don't know this is silly but i was even thinking like if like in the future i was just prepared that in the month of august you know that's just the the month where i'm not going to be able to count on him but you know what i'm an independent woman See, no, that's crazy. That's crazy. That's crazy. That's crazy. I'm sorry. That's crazy.

Starting point is 00:52:38 And if your partner wants to expect that from people, he needs to expect people in his life to say, no. He can expect whatever he wants for himself, you know? Yeah. And there'll be plenty of people who will say, yeah, I mean, what are you going to do about it? But like, again, I just, if we want to be, we can be incredibly resilient. And, you know, I'm sure there's people out there who think I'm speaking outside of my depth or whatever. And I'm again, not a psychologist, and I understand there's, but whatever happened to your partner as a child sounds like he's really had to deal with some terrible things. You know,

Starting point is 00:53:15 so many of us have some really just horrific, sad things, right? And that's sad. And I wish, and we should always try to write those wrongs or become more mindful. How do we be a better community? How do we protect children more? How do we be better parents and better partners? And how do we move forward and these are all great questions to ask ourselves but if hurt people hurt people then we have to be willing as hurt people to heal and and move through our pain and heal ourselves and it's our responsibility to to mend our wounds so that we don't do the same thing that happened to us and we talk about generational trauma and things like that and you know like are we going to be a victim of our circumstances or are we going to do whatever we can to move

Starting point is 00:54:05 through it? And as someone and who self describes herself as someone who really wants to be resilient and work through, you might not just, you asked about a non-negotiable. The non-negotiable might be like your compatibility because if he is someone who can't get through his, you know, his misfortunes of which he, you know what I'm saying? Like I think a lot of people, once they recognize that they, that things aren't their fault and they've been unlucky, we'll sit with that as a sense of comfort rather than a starting point to move forward, you know, if that makes sense. No, it does. I'm processing everything that you're saying. Yeah, it's, it's tough because I don't want to be like, like, defending, like, you know, or anything. But I, I just see that he is so caring,

Starting point is 00:54:56 you know, 80% of the time or whatever. But then those times are so tough that I can't manage them. I don't know. If 20% of some real rough patches is a lot. I don't know. Yeah. The question is, is do you think that 20% of, you know, using it, do you think he is, is this something he's decided?

Starting point is 00:55:23 This is who I am. There's nothing I can do about it. I go back to, like, when I was, and this is not, pain that I'm not talking about like heartbreak that I've dealt with but you know it was certainly experiences that were painful and I'll never figure at a time where I just could not get over this breakup that was like five months into it and just pitied myself and and I felt truly scorned and truly wronged and I remember like telling my parents I'll never I decided I'll never get over this you know and do you is he is he decided that this is this pain he's had to endure is

Starting point is 00:55:58 something that is just, it's his wound. Sometimes we identify it with our pain. Yeah. And it becomes a part of who we are. And like you, you're the type of person who's like, I don't want that to define me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really good.

Starting point is 00:56:16 I think that specifically with the grief, that's maybe to a certain degree what I experienced this last month, with other things that he's. you know experienced i mean there's been a lot of abuse that he's experienced when he was a child but not with that yeah so the things that are he's he's worked with them with his therapist and and i like not with those things but i and then like i don't know if i'm like nitpicking here because i think i just feel it with with with that with with the grief and that that traumatic part of his life where it's been really, you know, I don't know if I'm also being like a crybaby too

Starting point is 00:57:01 because like this is just like the first month of his mom's death should I be more empathetic and more understanding. That's where like I'm like, going to. Well, it sounds like though, while this is the first month you've dealt with it, it sounds like he's giving you, there's been other instances where he's been depressed or sad about other things.

Starting point is 00:57:23 Yeah. So there's been a pattern of how he deals with being triggered. Correct? Right? Is that accurate? Yes. Yes. Right now that I can remember has been with the grief.

Starting point is 00:57:39 Like his mom was a porter. So there's been a lot of stuff that he needs to get rid of from his house because he was caring for her for the last years. So I don't know if it's like those triggers that then get him down and then getting rid of all the clothes. are getting rid of all these junk. Yeah, here's the thing. I think when it comes down to if you're trying to like, because really you're calling in to try to figure out, like you mentioned, is depression and non-negotiable, right?

Starting point is 00:58:07 And you're trying to figure out this is a man who you respect, you love, you see a lot of good in it even as a partner. He's pretty fucking good most of the time. But there is this thing that is a recurring thing. You have to ask yourself, deep down, does your gut tell you, is this something you think he is he wants to and is willing to overcome or is this something that you think he has identified with and quite honestly has no interest in overcoming it and that from time to time he doesn't resist or show a sign of wanting to work through some of his pain and does

Starting point is 00:58:45 your gut tell you that this will never really change about him or do you think that he is capable of turning a corner because if you don't think he's capable if your guts like I don't think this is ever going to change then it might be a non-negotiable for you if he's the type of person who can say to you

Starting point is 00:59:06 I don't want to feel this way anymore I am tired of being sad or feeling sad and I don't know how if I can change it and I don't know and it might but I want to work through it I want to

Starting point is 00:59:19 whatever help I need to not feel this way, I want to try at least. And I want to challenge myself to work through it. And it, you know, I might try and fail and I, you know, it won't be easy, but I, I am tired of this. He has expressed that. And he has expressed the, you know, and his work with, you know, going to therapy. He has expressed that. He has, like, other medical stuff too, where I'm like, like, now you have this and like now you have like this other thing and so i guess he has been more active with with taking care of himself it's when he i think i don't know i'm sorry i think it's when he goes into that where i feel like this is never going to end and then he gets better and i'm like okay

Starting point is 01:00:07 this is good so i don't know i don't know if it's a tough situation i just like it's such a fine line, you know, I think as, especially if you're like acts of service is one of my, is my core love language. So I like taking care of the people I love. But it can be a real ick for me to be around people who seem unwilling to want to help themselves. That is exactly what I'm feeling. I don't know if it's fair because he does try those steps of continuing therapy and, you know, his medical appointments and trying to get out of that state. I think, but I think there's, I think you're, I think you're discounting your intuition. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:00:51 And I think talking to you, you sound like an empathetic person who wants to, you know, give people the benefit of the doubt and you have certainly gone out of your way at times to give your partner the benefit of the doubt. But I think sometimes deep down, we just, we don't see what we need to see to feel good about a situation. And I think the reason why you're calling in with this question is because I think deep down you doubt his ability to want to really help himself. And I think sometimes you feel guilty because, again, we have been told like, you know, we don't want a victim blame and we don't want to, we want to have empathy for people who have been wronged. and it's very nuanced to try to you know and but deep down you're just like you know

Starting point is 01:01:41 fucking lock you know just fucking come on lock it the fuck up because again we're not here to compare people's pains but like you know just because someone doesn't make you aware of the pain they've endeared throughout life doesn't mean it doesn't exist yeah and and most of us have dealt with some some shit And if you're someone who has dealt with your own shit and pain and you've worked through it, it is hard for you to not expect other people to try to do the same. And it is really hard. I mean, again, having kids, being married, and the best situations is hard enough.

Starting point is 01:02:24 But if someone is checking out 20% of the time because they're emotionally incapable of taking, of even taking care of themselves, let alone, that's virtually impossible. Yeah, I see what you're saying. It's tough. Yeah. Sorry, I don't know what to say. No, I know. I mean, it's, you have to believe that he really doesn't want to.

Starting point is 01:02:47 Yeah. Feel this way anymore. Yeah, and like, yeah, it sucks because I feel like when I get into that stage of like, this is never going to end. And I also go into this like, I maximize the icks and like, it makes me feel a lot better when I hear you say that Natalie has a lot of ics of you. But then I maximize those in those moments and I'm like, okay, is this normal though? Or is it?

Starting point is 01:03:16 Well, yeah, icks are normal. Yeah, but it's like I think it's just, it's very helpless to be with someone who acts helpless. I was about to say the helpless thing. Like, I think it's so hard when I feel his feeling of being helpless. And I just think most people aren't. Yeah. Even if they have a reason to, I just, I don't know,

Starting point is 01:03:39 I just think we're very resilient people if we want to be. And again, it's not about comparing tragedies. Yeah. But I think there's just so many examples, and we're so unaware of more examples of how people have. worked through so many atrocities to still make the most of this life that they have. I was just having this conversation with my team or it's just like I think it's important to recognize when people are victims and I think it's important to see them and and again

Starting point is 01:04:16 validate them that it's not their fault and to the extent that they feel like it is their fault or been made to feel like it is their fault. And sometimes we do need to cry a little bit and let it out our emotions and just be sad for a period of time. But I also think sometimes we do need to get through it. No, I agree. And I think that should be normalized a little bit more. I work in a clinic with medically complex families and children.

Starting point is 01:04:46 And we do want to provide like accommodations and like all these therapies. But at the same time, we want to make sure that they also get. you know, like they, they can also make it, you know, to their level. Yeah, I know it's very nuanced and I don't know what people are saying who are listening or what they're thinking, but if I just, I choose to believe there's almost always a path forward and that doesn't make it easy. I mean, it's going to be easy, but there usually is a path forward. It doesn't mean it erases the past.

Starting point is 01:05:18 It doesn't mean you'll ever, always, ever fully get over something, but things can get better. things can improve things be you know we can we can learn from terrible experiences we can stop generational trauma um and again back to like if you're someone who just think you know like if hurt people hurt people then i i truly hope that for those of us who have all been hurt where to whatever degree there is a path forward uh yeah because otherwise then we just can become people who hurt people and people who are depressed can hurt other people.

Starting point is 01:06:00 Yeah. You know? Yeah, I think you're right. So it's definitely a balance between empathy and, but for your case, you know, you might be forced to make the, what is going to feel like a callous and selfish decision

Starting point is 01:06:17 to choose your own happiness because if your partner, ultimately deep down if your gut tells me there are times where he just doesn't want to help himself what a life looks like with that person can be very very challenging yeah so sorry i don't know i know again like not a therapist want to point that out um so just just my yeah we actually have our couples therapy session on mondays it's going to be interesting uh yeah it's it's been helpful with other things that we've talked about. But I think I have a lot to think about.

Starting point is 01:06:56 Maybe just like, listen, I will say with just a note for all the ladies out there who are dating a man, I think men need people to believe in them. I think sometimes society forgets that. So if you're going to critique him, do it from a place of you believing in his ability to work through this stuff. You know, don't make him feel,

Starting point is 01:07:21 bad for his feeling bad. Yeah. It's got to come from a place of, I believe in you. I believe in you. You can do this. All men need cheerleaders. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:07:36 And I don't think I've done that. I feel like I have been critical of the things that he's done or said when it's, you know, those moments. But I haven't been expressed, Like, I haven't expressed that to him yet before from a place of, like, belief in him. Yeah. All right.

Starting point is 01:07:58 Well, it sounds like you're doing everything, you know, you're not, whatever you decide, I just want you to know, you're not a dick. Thank you. And if you decide to leave him, you're not a bad person, you know, you're just not. Yeah. You have the right to choose a life that is not overly complicated and is set up for success. And I think your greatest fear is that you're worried that you're going to choose a life that is set up for failure.

Starting point is 01:08:25 Yeah. And I think that's more than valid. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Okay. Well, thanks for the call. Thank you.

Starting point is 01:08:34 Actually, before we end, can I ask you something really quick? Sure. I'm a complete normie. And I just want to know if it's normal for reality TV people to send a follow request on Instagram to Normies like me. Why do you ask? I just got a follow request from some, from like a previous love is blind cast member last week probably.

Starting point is 01:09:00 Is that a guy? Yes. But I've never met like I reacted to a story with like the clapping hands because of something that he posted. But I don't DM people. Like I don't do those things. And I'm, I mean like reality TV stars are not. are pretty, or more or less normies,

Starting point is 01:09:21 especially if they're not like the 1% people who really pop. So if it's a guy and he's followed you, it's, I think, while you have a boyfriend. I didn't accept his follow request. If you're asking what his intentions are, they're probably like any other guy who would send you a follow request. Okay. Okay. It won't be accepting it either way, but yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:47 What season? I don't remember. It was one of the last couple, probably. Gotcha. All right. Well, thanks for the call. Thank you. All right.

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Starting point is 01:15:11 family, check it out. This fall, treat yourself and your loved ones to warm sourdough breads and seasonal baked goods from Wildgren. Rumor has it. They have apple, slider donuts and pumpkin cinnamon biscuits, so get them before this seasonal item sells out. For a limited time, Wild Green is offering our listeners $30 off the first box, plus free croissants in every box. When you go to wildgreen.com slash V-I-A-L to start your subscription, you heard me, free croissants in every box and $30 off your first box when you go to wildgrain.com slash v iALL that is wildgrain.com slash v i a l or you can use promo code v i a l at checkout don't miss their seasonal products how's it going good hi my name is rachel i'm 37 years old and my issue is that my husband

Starting point is 01:15:55 refuses to let our kids meet my mom's secret boyfriend and i feel stuck in the middle what do I do. All right. So what do you mean by secret boyfriend? Who is he, who is he a secret to? He was a secret to everybody for at least eight years. Why is he a secret? My parents weren't officially divorced. And my mom was basically trying to have her cake and eat it too by hanging out with the family, doing things with the family. My dad has wanted to be back together with her the whole time and she didn't want to ruffle any tail feathers by letting everybody know that she actually was with somebody else and didn't have said that she

Starting point is 01:16:39 hasn't wanted to hurt anybody. And she's a private person overall. So, you know, she just thinks it's her business and nobody else's business. Is she still technically married to your dad? So they actually got divorced November 2024. So they recently finally divorced. Okay. And so your kids are aware that grandma and grandpa are no longer together? They're kind of, they're really young. So I have a three-year-old and a 10-month-old.

Starting point is 01:17:02 So the three-year-old only... So it's not really relevant to them. Barely knows, yeah. So, okay, given that they're so young, what is your husband's reasoning for refusing to introduce... And I'm assuming your husband's interacted with secret boyfriend? Barely. No.

Starting point is 01:17:19 I mean, I would say no. He met him one time before we knew that they were... dating. He didn't care for him at that time. Why? He had a lot of negative feelings about him even at that time. And he did get a sense that something weird was going on. But we didn't know anything for sure at that time. Is it the principle of it for your husband? I think it's a few things. I think he overall has resentment toward my mom, which we could go into that. but uh for more than just her what he might perceive is disrespect to your dad yeah um he feels like she blew up the family you know my husband and i have been together since eighth grade

Starting point is 01:18:06 oh okay so he's had a front row seat to all this yeah yeah we've been together for 24 years married for 15 okay and my parents were together my whole childhood and he grew up with them too in a way right Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's definitely a make sense. Yeah. When we got married, my parents and his parents had become close friends already while we were dating. And we had done many family things together, trips, holidays, birthdays, all of it. And when my parents separated, it at first was because my mom had cheated on my dad. And I went through a whole period of time where I was super angry with her, but her and I actually went to therapy together. And I basically, at that time, was in my early 20s and very, you know, thought I knew all the right things, like, to say about how she should

Starting point is 01:19:00 stay married to my dad and try to work it out with my dad. But I basically got kicked in the butt by the therapist at that time, that it's, you know, it's not really my problem to solve. And the whole time, my husband's been right along there with me with, you know, just caring that my parents end up back together. My dad has wanted them back together, wanted them to be back together. And my mom, you know, her and I had to repair our relationship in my early 20s, going through the therapy and everything. And my husband just hasn't come to a place that I have where he never got to a place of respecting her choices, basically. I can't help but wonder, there's a bit of a projection here it sounds like that's coming from your husband where it's just like he

Starting point is 01:19:48 never wants to it's like there's a part of him that like i'm guessing that if he forgives her then he's forgetting about what she did to his family and you know she is your mother and it's like there's i think there's always a fear of like are you eventually going to do to me what your mom did to your dad type of thing and i can't possibly say this is okay because i never want you to think like you know it's almost he would be putting his guard down in a way. Yeah. And I think there's a level of uneasiness that, you know, well, like, you know, she's your only, she's the only mom you got.

Starting point is 01:20:24 And as imperfect as our parents are, we always have to find a lane for forgiveness. And I think we don't have to. But if we can, you know, we only have one family, as imperfect as they are. Yeah. So I'm glad that you've been able to mend this fence with your, with your mom. but she's not your husband's mom and, you know, our in-laws are, you know, like, they're her in-law, you know. I agree with my husband to an extent that I do feel that her boyfriend, I mean, he is a little bit shady, everything that has happened so far with her keeping him a secret and then coming to find out that

Starting point is 01:21:05 he's relied on her a lot financially. and he, he was an employee of her business and is living in a house that she owns. Technically, she owned it with my dad. You know, it feels like he's kind of mooched off of her and wiggle his way in. We don't love, you know, the level of drinking that he does and that she does with him. We don't really love the way he presents himself. You know, he's the type of guy that will wear a shirt with, you know, a pinup girl coming out of a cocktail glass.

Starting point is 01:21:41 And it's just... Disrespectful. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's just the way everything added together. I mean, you are describing a guy that I would be like, you know, to your point, your kids are too young to know the difference at this, at this juncture, junction, junction, juncture at this point, this period in their life. But you're describing a person I would not want around my kids.

Starting point is 01:22:04 Right. And so I agree with my husband to the extent. that I'm never going to have my kids spend the night at her house because we don't trust this person. And, you know, the statistics alone just about abuse and that, you know, being strange men likely with people that you are not, people that are close to home. Yeah, we, I think for my husband, he overall represents just like a category of risk that he's not willing to take. And And it's the same for me, but the difference my husband and I have is that, so my mom wants to start bringing this guy around to different holiday events and invite us over, go up to dinner. And if we're all there together, if I'm there, if my husband's there, it would be fine.

Starting point is 01:22:54 And that's, that's what my mom would want is that we get to know him while we're there. It doesn't, I mean, she would also love to have my daughter spend the night at her house. I mean, that's the boundary that I agree with my husband. I'm willing to step my, you know, put down. But I just can't imagine going through holiday season after holiday season saying, no, we will not be in the same room as your boyfriend because my husband is unwilling. He will tell me that he'll stay home with the girls and I can go, that I will not be bringing the girls to anywhere that he is at all. Like, it's extremely. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:23:32 It's very extreme. Um, yes, it's, it's, it's, I, I, I see both sides, you know, I really do. I, I empathize with your husband. And so, yeah, you're, you're, you're, I get why your husband's holding a hard line because he's like, why, why would I risk putting my kids in a position to be around a guy that I just think is a scumbag for a woman who's only just made bad choices when, when it comes to her family. She, this is a woman who, from his point of view, hasn't prior her family. And I'm guessing as being a young father, a new dad, you're guessing your husband's in like full on, this is my family, I'm here to protect my family, you know, full dad mode type

Starting point is 01:24:17 of thing. Very protected. Yes, which I totally get. Like I'm in like, you know. Of course. But he has to, to a degree that she is your mother and he needs to support his wife's relationship with her parents is you know he just he just does and you guys have to find that balance as a couple and he needs to empathize with the fact that like hey you didn't choose this for your family you didn't like that your mom did what she did to your dad it wasn't fun for you it was more hurtful for you than certainly it was for him he gets to be more judgmental as someone who's like not necessarily related to your mom but you have to this is still your family And you don't like it, but, like, you still want a relationship with your mom, and this sucks for you, and you just need him to help find some kind of middle ground so that, like, you know, this isn't about being right. Again, it's about being happy. And, you know, it's like, this is my mom, you know, and, you know, knock on wood. But if something tragically happened the next couple years, like, I can't imagine, you know, not having a few more wonderful memories about the holidays because we were judgmental of her some of her choices.

Starting point is 01:25:34 and to your point, like, he can still be a protective dad as long as he's there, you know, and your kids are going to be surrounded by, like, you know, the world is full of scummy people. You're not going to keep your kids isolated at home and stop them from, like, going to summer camp or the public pool because they might run into, like, shady characters, you know? So, yeah, it's, he needs to find that middle ground. Right. Well, that's kind of where I'm stuck because he just flat out refuses. The good news is right now your kids are so young, it doesn't really matter in terms of, for them. I mean, you have a little bit of time, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Starting point is 01:26:19 Kind of, yeah. I mean, my three-year-old is extremely astute, but I know what you mean. Yeah, I know she's young, but she's already asking questions. Like, she sees my dad at her grandpa and she'll say, why does Grampi not have a wife? And so she's already thinking about those things. She has never met my mom's boyfriend at all. My mom definitely wants her to. And yeah, they're young right now, but time is, time goes by quickly. I don't know.

Starting point is 01:26:50 My biggest issue right now is that even communicating boundaries with my mom makes her feel rejected. she takes it as rejection. So she will say things like you're not for me and you cater to your dad when I do a family holiday with my dad's side of the family, but don't want to do a Christmas event with at her place with her boyfriend. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, there are consequences to actions. Yeah, she hates that.

Starting point is 01:27:27 we've said that she abhors that statement and I mean I know I need to just not let it be my problem but it's hard I'm feeling like I'm alone in this in the entire family because you know I have one sibling my brother and his wife they've already ripped the band-aid off and gone out to dinner with them but they're about to have a baby who knows they might change their mind when their daughter's born on what kind of boundaries they keep. But my husband's family is so close with my family. They all think that my husband is being ridiculous. So his own parents think that he's being ridiculous. His sister thinks that he's being ridiculous. And it's partly because they just don't want the tension. They just want to have fun. They want us to all get together,

Starting point is 01:28:18 not have any issues. And we all went on a trip. He's definitely being ridiculous. I can be very stubborn. I'm capable of doing what your husband is doing right now. I think what your husband needs to understand is that by putting his foot down, he's hurting you. Yeah. And because, like, again, he needs to understand, like, you don't want this. This isn't your, you don't wish this man was around.

Starting point is 01:28:42 But the fact that he is suggesting he's incapable of protecting his family and his children, this man is not that powerful. And that if your husband wants, he doesn't have to be his best friend, but, like, to refuse, like, this man is in your life, you know, I, shit, I got 10 brothers and sisters. I don't get to pick their partners, you know? I don't get to, I can't like everybody, you know, deal with it. They're, you know, it is what it is, right? I'm not going to refuse to, like, go. I don't have to, I'm not trying to be best friends with everyone who's, you know, I've been married into, so to speak, or, or my siblings choose. And they're fine, you know, like, You know, I don't have relationships with some of them, but like, you're in the spirit, this hard lying your husband's holding is, is hurting you because it's causing you emotional distress. It's making you choose like you have to pick sides. And the ridiculous part about it is that your husband's actions are suggesting that he can't protect his family if this man is in the same room with his family.

Starting point is 01:29:49 Yeah. And that's obviously not true, right? Right. And he's holding a hard line about something that isn't true at the consequence of, you know, making his wife's life like more difficult. What he needs to focus on is not making your life more difficult for the sake of punishing this guy. And he's giving this guy too much credit to spite this guy and despite your mom. And I guess in a way, is willing to make your life more difficult. And he has to see it that way.

Starting point is 01:30:20 Right. Yeah. Where's your husband? Are you wrong? Can I tell him this? Not currently, but I wish. I've tried to tell him all this. He's very stubborn.

Starting point is 01:30:35 He's not the type of person that budges easily. When he draws a hard line, he doesn't want to be pressured out of that. But, I mean, I will certainly relay once again that it is hurting me. and I think what you said about him giving my mom's wife and too much power is actually something new I could be telling him. That's a good point. Yeah, you're in a way letting, he is not deserving of this type of. Yeah. And again, it's suggesting that he can't, he doesn't have the power to like stand up to this guy or protect his family or his kids by his presence.

Starting point is 01:31:17 And he doesn't have to, him being in the same room. doesn't make doesn't prove anything so yeah like he's got to kind of get over his stubbornness and I can really put myself in your husband's shoes or just like I can picture my brother who's even more stubborn than me you know really just your husband has to get over being right and focus on everyone's happiness and it will be a good lesson for him as a dad because like this won't be the last time he has to choose happiness of his family and his kids over being right. Yeah. I laughed when you said that you could really put yourself into shoes, because this is actually why I called you. Your mindset, I've listened to a lot of your Ask Nick episodes, and your mindset really

Starting point is 01:32:02 reminds me of my husbands and just that ability to be discerning and critical, but you're typically, you know, right about what you're critical over, even if it, you know, it might rub people the wrong way or whatever, but it ends up being right. Yeah. No, I know, yeah. And that's the thing is your husband has convinced himself and rightfully so probably this guy sucks. Yeah. And he knows he sucks. And he knows your mom's wrong. And he knows your mom has like a bad taste in men and there's no benefit to him to allow this man to be a part of his family's life. And he knows he's right, which is why he's holding such a hard line and he's got to get over himself about being right and recognize that like he can still allow this to happen still be right and then just like be the protective dad

Starting point is 01:32:57 doesn't have to have a drink with this guy doesn't have to chill out doesn't even have to really be nice to him i am so good at dismissing people with the silent treatment and i'm like i could give your husband a run for his money i can't be out awkward in an awkward situation of like, just so you know, I don't need to say I don't like you without making it feel like I don't like you. And I bet your husband's pretty good at that too. He can do that and allow you to just be around your mom for the holidays. And yeah, because at some point he will be, his stubbornness will be getting the way of his own children's happiness because your kids are going to want to be around grandma for the holidays. And like, they don't need to be bothered.

Starting point is 01:33:43 by adult problems right now as young kids. Very true. They don't need to know. And so he kind of needs to get over himself. And I say that as someone who's had to get over myself often in situations where I know I'm right. This is all good. This is a good way for me to reframe it to him.

Starting point is 01:34:01 When this episode comes out, you can let him listen to it. Does he know you're calling in? No. Do you think he'll be upset? He knew that I was thinking about it. Let me just say that with his person. He's not the type of person to want to listen to someone on a podcast. I understand.

Starting point is 01:34:18 Nor would I. Listen, this is his opportunity to grow. Because I'm sure it sounds like, yeah, and I'm sure you, probably why you're married to him and you love him, you respect, you know, his discernment. But that doesn't mean he can't be wrong and it doesn't mean he can't be more nuanced. Yeah. Yeah, it's just he's, this will be a good lesson for him in finding as a father, you know, especially having a, you're going to have to be nuanced, man.

Starting point is 01:34:40 You're going to have to like, it's, if it's, if it's, you're. your way or the highway eventually people are going to start picking the highway right it's because like this is this is emotionally hurting you and it's like again this is not fun this is not like again you wouldn't choose this for yourself you don't like this situation you don't like this guy you wish you know you don't like what your mom did but it's not your choice and and you know it's I want my mom to be happy yeah right but I think that the partner she's chosen makes that difficult it's difficult to be happy for her. He doesn't feel good enough for her, right?

Starting point is 01:35:17 And it's her choice, but having any negativity toward that for her feels like rejection of her because of this choice that she's made. I mean, there's some element of your husband being a little righteous. Yeah. As if he's like, in the long run, your mom will thank him for not accepting him because he's not, you know, because he's a loser. This is your mom's life. And like you said, she's going to do what she wants to do.

Starting point is 01:35:41 but he's acting like he's saving your mom and saving you from yourselves and protecting his kids when all he's doing is this kind of like creating unnecessary tension and emotional distress for his wife and I guess his parents who just want to party for the sake of being right. Yeah. And and discounting his ability to be a protective father in situations where he can't shelter his kids from obnoxious slash annoying people who he thinks are like bad role models for his kids. Your kids are going to be surrounded by bad role models. And quite honestly, maybe this is a teachable moment for your kids as they get older and they

Starting point is 01:36:26 observe certain behaviors from this guy. It's a teachable moment. Like, you know, you can't stop your kids from being around people that, like, represent behaviors that you don't want your kids to learn from. Yeah, that's true. He has to get over not getting his way, so to speak, in how he wanted our family to look, which, I mean, I'm right there with him. But him getting his way is double punishing you for a situation that, like, has affected you the most. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:36:57 And he has the benefit of disconnecting because, like, it's not his family and it's not his mom and his parents are still got their thing going on. And he's being a little self-righteous about it. Yeah, agreed. If he's listening to this, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to judge you. But I know I'm right. This is very helpful. I think even just the fact that he's giving my mom's boyfriend too much power in holding the line this hard, it was helpful for me to hear that. And I will definitely take that back to him.

Starting point is 01:37:32 And then I have to rip the band-aid off with my mom a little bit on having a more honest conversation. with her because we've been able to skirt around it and beat her on the bush a little bit. You know, I've definitely blamed my husband on why we haven't gotten to know her boyfriend when it really is both of us. But I also haven't even told my mom how extreme my husband really feels. And I don't know if I need to, just that we could never, there could never be enough building of trust to make it worth taking a risk. Yeah, no. I mean, I would never let my kids sleep over that fucking place. Yeah, and I think that that's something my mom is going to need to hear because she doesn't

Starting point is 01:38:13 understand that. I mean, yeah, I don't know how you put, like, you're right. Like, the stats of child abuse from men not related to the children who have intimate access to the children are staggering. I'm poorly wording that, but you know what I'm talking about. No, exactly. I mean, it's everything that we're talking about here that's not being said out loud, yeah, about like what my husband's concern is the category of risk that this guy represents right yeah and

Starting point is 01:38:42 I'm sorry if that like is offensive to him but it's not your fucking problem yeah not to mention all the other things of like he's just I we don't respect how he moves himself or carries himself or the energy he brings to a room and it's fine for us as adults we can just choose not to be a part of it but we are uncomfortable around it with kids and again but that's still different than like coming to a party where there's a bunch of people right then that's completely different than like approving you know the kids going there for the night while he you know has right exactly it's not it's apples and oranges right that's how I feel about it I just need my husband to get there and I need my mom to understand without feeling rejected but I know I can't control that part of it yeah that that's

Starting point is 01:39:29 tough because you know you're right there I mean at some point especially now I don't know how your mom is but like your mom is who she is. He is not going to change. However your mom is and why she is the way she is happened years ago. This is the final product. And there's, you know, punishing her for it is definitely a choice, but I don't know if it's the right choice. And there's a,

Starting point is 01:39:50 and then your husband has to understand the difference between protecting his family at the risk of it might hurt her feelings, but like the bigger picture is protecting my family and making a choice out of pettiness or righteousness isn't required to protect his family, but ultimately it hurts her in the long run. He's gone past the point of doing what he needs to do to be the protective father,

Starting point is 01:40:17 and now he's just being right and it's hurting you, it's making your mom feel extra bad, not that he thinks she deserves much sympathy, but you're just kind of piling on someone who, like, I don't think even your mom would be like, this is exactly what I wanted for myself. She's actually said stuff like that and admitted things like that. And I just, it makes it even worse, honestly.

Starting point is 01:40:38 Yeah. I mean, it's a dark thing to realize. But when I'm a big, you know, we make choices and people go through their life as if everything will work out because everything happens for a reason. And the reality is at some point you wake up and you realize this is the salad I made. Yeah. There's a level of delusion that my mom has had where she's like, she has said, I didn't know that. this would affect the family to this level when it's been just about not having him invited to big trips that we've gone on. It's she's starting to feel now that we know about him,

Starting point is 01:41:14 even though I'm still processing the rewriting of history and realizing all the lives that were told when we didn't know that she was with this guy. I'm still processing that. I know I need to get over it and move forward. But now that we know about him, she just expects that we accept it and that we are happy for her, that she's moved on, and that we don't carry any negativity from the way she went about it being shady. Yeah. Well, that's maybe the part you have to get over too, because I just, at some point,

Starting point is 01:41:48 and again, I say this is someone who's taking me a long time to get to where I'm at and to get over myself of being right, right? Again, I know how to shun people. Like, I'm awesome at it. I think your husband has to practice some empathy for your mom, which is going to maybe sound crazy to him. But there's a level of pity your mom deserves in the sense that, like, she is a roadmap for what neither of you want for yourselves or your family.

Starting point is 01:42:15 And your mom is a product of someone who's made poor choices for herself. And these are the consequences of her actions. and allowing your mom to just, like, enjoy whatever life she has, knowing that it's probably not the life that anyone went for themselves. Like, you don't need to punish her. You know what I'm saying? Like, and I think sometimes we want to punish people and we want to let them know, like, you know, you did this.

Starting point is 01:42:43 And it's just like, just, your mom makes poor choices. And people who make poor choices make poor choices after poor choices. And again, the reason why your mom hates the line and gets consequences of actions, because your mom's probably always felt those consequences for her terrible choices. And she doesn't know how to make good choices for herself. And it's an excuse to, like, forgive her. But I don't think you need to pile on. Like, I just, out of pettiness. Yeah. You're right. And let this woman just live her life. It already kind of sucks. Um, I mean, I wouldn't say it's pettiness. I would say it's bitterness. But that is something that I need to work on. Let it be like a reminder of how

Starting point is 01:43:23 how important is to make good healthy choices and that fact that you and your husband have the good thing going. And your mom, you have a front row seat of everything you don't want your life to turn out to be. Yeah. And that's the silver lining. You're right. I needed to hear that for myself. So that was good. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Well, sorry you're going. I mean, that's not fun. No. Not fun. It's not. It's your husband's job to protect your emotions to and to be empathetic to you and not to cause

Starting point is 01:43:58 you emotional distress. And he might be right, but he is still as a consequence of holding this line, hurting you emotionally. Yeah. And he needs to know that. And he needs to acknowledge that. And if he wants to keep holding this line, then he needs to sit with the reality, whether it's coming from a podcaster or not, that, like, he's not fully doing his job as a husband

Starting point is 01:44:22 by holding this line. And he could do his job as a husband and as a father, being the protective dad and the supportive husband at the same time. He can do that. And he is choosing not to out of pride. Yeah. I agreed. I mean, I hate to say it, but there have been a couple times when I have flat out said, I feel like you are the best dad in the entire world, but you haven't been the best husband. You've said that to him? I've said that to him. What does he say?

Starting point is 01:44:51 He didn't argue it. He just said he'll think about that and try to work on that. He can do both. It's a choice. Yeah. It's a choice. Yeah. And honestly, what's annoying about this one is that this costs him nothing to be both.

Starting point is 01:45:05 Yeah. I mean, it's like he thinks he's as invested as I am in the emotions of what has happened with my parents and them not working out. And I mean, I get it. Like I said, we've been together since. No, but it's ridiculous because did he go to therapy with your mom? Yeah, no. No, he did not.

Starting point is 01:45:22 And he didn't because he didn't care enough to. And that's fine, nor would I. But you did because she's your mom. And that relationship, as damaged as it was, was that important to you because it's your mom. Yeah, you're right. For him to pretend that he's just as emotionally affected by this and it hurts him just as much, is like, it's bullshit. He needs to listen to this episode, mate. It'll piss him off.

Starting point is 01:45:45 All right. I'd love an update. I would love to give you an update. I'll definitely let you know if I have him listen. All right. Okay. And feel free to invite him next time. I didn't know that was an option.

Starting point is 01:45:58 Yeah, it is. Yeah, I mean, that could be good. But, you know, he barely will do therapy. So I'm not sure. Well, that's room for growth. I mean, if he's, the good news about stubborn people is like, and people who can be a little self-righteous, is that like,

Starting point is 01:46:16 a way to get through to them and that is like he doesn't want to your husband does not want to be a failure that's true and and uh you can use that to your advantage yeah i will be able to frame it that way that's good i really appreciate it nick you've been super helpful well take care thanks for the call thank you all right bye Thank you.

The Viall Files - E1011 Ask Nick - Get a Lawyer and Leave

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