The Viall Files - E1022 Ask Nick - I'm Sleeping with an Engaged Man

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

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I'm Amber. I'm 27, and the guy I'm hucking up with is engaged. What do I do? Break up. Why are you hooking up with an engaged man? So it's been a situation ship for the last five years. Okay. So is he cheating on his fiancé with you?

Yes. Okay. Explain to me why you think that's okay. I don't. Okay. We have been really good friends for the last five years, looking up, and then he started dating her about three years ago, and it just continued throughout that. Okay. Explain to me how you've been able to justify it on your end.

I mean, obviously, I'm aware that it's, like, really shitty what I've been doing. And, like, I'm not going to make excuses for it. But I think where I've been coming from is I, to me, it hasn't been just a situation ship. Like, I'm the person on the other end who has had feelings the whole time. And I've just been kind of hoping that maybe someday he would wake up and change his mind and have those feelings back. So in a way, it's like you knew him first and you felt a connection with him first. So there's a part of you that is telling yourself. that you're just as entitled to his love and affection as she is?

I don't think it's like an entitlement. I think it was just like I just wanted it because of how I had felt for so long. Yeah, but we all want things. But like what stop? You know, for example, I imagine anytime you walk into a bank, you might want, you know, maybe you see the vault open and you see a stack of money and there's like a $100,000 worth of cash there. You might want that, but like would you steal it if you knew you couldn't get caught?

No. Okay. So it's not about wanting it, right? There's a, I guess what I'm trying to, you know, just like there is a part. I think it's important for you to understand why you've been able to justify it because you have justified it, right? Like you can acknowledge it's wrong. I don't know anything about you, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're not a horrible person that lacks empathy. I think you're doing a shitty thing to someone who you really don't know. And there's a disconnect between you and this other. person, but you have been able to justify it because the flip side is you, like, knowing it's shitty, you don't give a fuck. And you're like, you don't, you don't even feel the need to justify because you just don't care. That would make you kind of a shitty person. I don't, I'm guessing you're not. So you have had to justify it because without justifying it, then you just don't give a fuck. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, yeah, I think it's important you acknowledge that you've had to justify it and that you have justified it and figuring out how you've justified it,

you know, just to make yourself aware of it. Because again, we justify things all the time and we convince ourselves of things that maybe deep down we know aren't right. You know, the good people who do bad things, which all the time every day, it's not because they're evil. It's because they're able to justify it. They're able to say things like, well, I know it's wrong, but. Does that make sense? Yeah. I guess, yeah. So we never would really talk about the relationship so like even though it existed like the times that we were together it wasn't being spoken about so it was kind of just like the elephant in the room and then he also had me blocked from his Snapchat story so I wasn't really seeing his like everyday life in that sense

with her and then the reason I found out they were engaged is he actually blocked me on Facebook because he didn't want me to see that the engagement had happened okay what are you hoping to get out of this call so when I first wrote it it was I think within like an hour of finding out because I was just mad, sad, like all the things. I think now that it's been about a month and I've processed it. It's more or less like, what can I take from this to like be a better person after, but also like making sure that like I forgive myself for it, I guess. Like I have a lot of regret now and kind of feel like I almost don't deserve like a

happy ending after this moving forward. Okay, that's fair. Well, I think step one is just, again, just owning acknowledge that you've done a shitty thing. It sounds like you're done with this guy. Is that accurate? Or like, are you? You are. And is that because right now he's not communicating with you because now he's engaged and he has cut you off? Or have you decided that you're done with this person? So I've decided I'm done. He hasn't cut me off. There was a little bit of communication right after I found. out. And then I did block him on Snapchat just because that's where a lot of the conversations regarding like the hookups and stuff were happening. So I wanted to take away that from myself because

I didn't want to fall back into that. So there was a little bit of communication like over text afterwards. But I made it clear to him that like if and when an engagement came like that's when like this needed to end and I needed to be done with it, which I mean doesn't make up for the last three years. But that was the first time I was ever really able to set a boundary with him. And so then when he went and, like, blocked me on Facebook and I found out anyways, that's where, like, a lot of the hurt came from because I was finally able to, like, stand up and set the boundary with him. Mm-hmm.

I mean, all you can do is just try to move forward with it. I don't think there's much good in telling this person. I don't know if that's even something you were considering. No, it's, it wasn't. Okay. I don't think you'd be trying to help her. I think you'd be trying to hurt her. So I'm glad that you're not considering that.

Yeah, I mean, listen, you know, like you've done a bad thing, you just got to try not to do it again. As far as like thinking you don't deserve it or yada yada or like karma is going to, I mean, I definitely kind of believe in karma to a certain degree. That being said, I don't think you need to operate and live in fear. If anything, you know, if something like this happens to you in the future, I don't think it's do you much good to be like, oh, I had this coming. You know, I don't think that's why it happened. Fast forward three years. You're in a relationship and your heart is broken and you feel really wronged. Yeah, I don't think there's much good and I had it coming. I think maybe it will help you

maybe feel less sorry for your, that's how I would approach it. For you, as you sit here now, what I think it's really important, I think you got to recognize. Like, you chose to do some extreme shit, right? Like, outside of the fact that he was dating someone else the whole time and you knew that in the back of your mind, I certainly can offer you a little grace because, like, it's, you know, he's the main culprit here. It's really his fault. You certainly didn't help. You did a bad thing for sure. But as far as, like, you allowing this to go on for five years, clearly getting very little from this man, at times being okay, whether you act, whether you said you're okay with it, or or not, your actions said that you were okay with him blocking you on Snapchat and keeping you a

secret. And you were willing to take crumbs from this man for five years. And that's the part, if I were you, I would really try to focus on. And quite honestly, your willingness to accept so little for yourself is ultimately what caused you, in my mind, very unexpert opinion, to do this terrible thing. Honestly, you got to raise your standard. for yourself. You've got to hold yourself to a higher standard. I, if I were you, would spend the next six to 12 months. How old are you again? I'm 27. Okay. You're still pretty young. I would really focus on self-improvement. So much of your energy, no doubt, has been focused on getting this man to change his mind about you. You have wasted a lot of your energy where you could have been investing

yourself, investing your career, investing in your health, investing in other friends, certainly people, other dates, and you have invested in this guy, right? And if I were you, I would spend a lot more time investing in you in the things that make you happy, your health, you know, I would take pride in what you do. Because you've got to have more confidence in what you bring to the table, otherwise you're going to keep expecting so little of yourself. You thought so little of yourself that, A, you accepted crumbs from this man. You just, you had no standards, not even to do the right thing. So to me, it comes from a place of a lack of love for yourself or a lack of self-confidence knowing what you deserved. Does that make sense? Yeah. Is it resonating? And so instead of feeling

sorry for yourself or living in fear that you have karma is going to visit your front doorstep at some point because of the shitty thing to do and you didn't deserve it, I, if anything, get mad at yourself for a period of time and stop treating yourself so shitty, you know? Like, you have, I've been, and I don't think you, you know, and I think it's a fine line given what you did. I'm not suggesting you play the victim card here and pity yourself. I'm, it's more the get your shit together. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Stop being the victim and start treating yourself with the respect you deserve.

What ways have you been neglecting yourself? I'm guessing there's probably a lot of different ways you've been neglecting yourself. I would address those things and I would get busy, invests, in whatever it is you think you should invest in. Are you in any type of therapy? Not currently, no. Okay. Therapy's not a cure-all for anything,

but I think the right therapist, and I would be, you know, take your time making sure you land on the right therapist, but the right therapist, I think, can help you navigate some of these self-limiting beliefs you've clearly had in your life. What are some low-hanging fruit things that you think you could invest in,

yourself better um i think my self-confidence is pretty much non-existent so like that could definitely use a ton of improvement and then i think like my own perception of my self-worth has taken quite a tool during this all um what have you done to like be your best self like what what what self-improving things have you done whether it's like education even getting good at a hobby you know self-care what are some things that you've done to take pride in what you what you do um i have my degree already and then i'm currently back in school right now i have about a year and a half left of that until i'm done with my next degree um so that's something to look forward to but otherwise like are you proud of it i mean are you know like do you work hard yeah no i work full time as well as you know going to school full time

and then um i still you know make time for like my friends and then i live across the country from my family do you acknowledge the hard work you put into having a full-time job and then advancing your education so you can advance your career? Not as much as I should. Yeah, I mean, just because it was always kind of like an expectation to do it.

A lot of people don't do it though, you know? Yeah. Like you should still take pride in your work. You know, take pride in exceptionalism and people going out of their way to be their best selves is so hard to find and so rare that if you are putting in work and you are grinding in any aspect of your life,

you know, you should feel a sense of pride about that and feel good about that. And then try to apply to other aspects of your life. What are some things that you could be doing that you're not doing in terms of taking better care of yourself? I think just prioritizing myself, like whether it's like the small things or, you know, like you mentioned, like trying to get back into therapy

and just kind of getting to like the root of some of these things. But I feel like I've just kind of let this situation, consume me the last five years that I just really put myself on the back burner in pretty much every possible way. So now it's like I feel like I'm so behind compared to that's all relative. That's all that's really all in your head. You're only 27. You're in no different position than say someone who got married at 22 and is now getting divorced and as shitty as this situation has been for you. You're probably that's a lot easier than getting divorced or he could have just or he you could have got what you wanted from him and it could have been a

really pretty shitty relationship that would have been hard to get up you know what I'm saying so like what happened happen and so you should only is it relates to the past you should only be focused on how you can learn from that experience to improve your life going forward acknowledge the mistakes you've made both in terms of how you've treated yourself so poorly and how your you know let's just call it what it is, weakness caused you to do something shitty to another person. Hopefully, she doesn't know about it, so you haven't hurt her, but you did a shitty thing. And at the risk of potentially devastatingly hurting someone else, you were too weak to do the right thing. So you should focus on why that is so that you can learn from it.

Not to beat yourself up or make yourself feel bad or pity yourself, but to recognize that so that you are no longer a liability for hurting others for your own selfish needs. Use this as motivation, you know, like use this as a, thank God, I'm only 27, thank God, as shitty as it was, I didn't waste any more time and it could have been worse, right? You know, like, there's no point in spending your emotionally energy being like, oh, well, I'll never get those five years back. and then I don't, I'm so behind, you're not behind, you're only 27, you know, and you could have been in a relationship that even if it wasn't like horrible, it could have still taken a ton of your

time and energy that, and it could have ended, you know, and we all, when we have a relationship that ends, that we thought could, that wouldn't end. Everyone struggles with a little bit of starting over, you know, and that's scary for sure. Don't make, difficult situation, even worse, by self-pity or making yourself out to be a victim of this guy. You made choices. You knew we had a girlfriend. You knew there was another woman. And you know that from day one, five years ago, you had ever reasoned an opportunity to end it. And you chose not to. And so he is in charge of his own life and his decisions and whatever accountability he wants to hold himself to, he is not your problem, especially not anymore. You are your responsibility.

He is his responsibility. So I wouldn't waste any energy on what he's doing or what he did to you. You got to have some positive thoughts, which is like, thank God I'm out of that. It's time to get to work. It's time to start making different choices. So, yeah, is it helpful at all? Yeah, it's nice because obviously my friends are biased. or like my friends, so it was not really much tough love. It was like, oh, like, you know, you made a mistake, feel your feelings, whatever. But like, it's nice to kind of get that, like, reminder and push that, like, it's time to leave it in the past and, like, just really focus on myself and, like, improve from it, I guess. I think it's okay to call yourself out and recognize your mistakes.

You were, you were weak. And you're not a weak person, but you demonstrated weakness. And you have an opportunity to change that. you clearly have it in you to be a strong person. You just have to find that strength and apply it to other aspects of your life. And in areas in which you feel insecure or you have less confidence, figure it the fuck out. Start working on your weaknesses. Very few things we can't change, you know, and very few people are willing to do whatever it takes to make improvements in their life. So if you are willing to do that, you have such an advantage over most people. And if you're

willing to not make excuses for your choices so that you don't feel bad for choices you've made and reasons why things haven't worked out the way you wanted to. And you go a little bit deeper than just saying, well, everything happens for a reason and I'm just going to sit on my ass and wait for the universe to, you know, tell me it's my time, if you're willing to actually, like, make the most of whatever it is you have, then you will be better off. You just will. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. Is this in any way motivating? I'm trying to motivate you. Yeah, no, it has been. Have you blocked them? I mean, is he capable of connecting with you if you really wanted to? I have not blocked his phone number. So.

Why not? If he wanted to, he could reach out that way. Why not? As stupid as it sounds, I am in his fantasy football league. Why do you need to be in a fantasy football league? I was already signed up and paid for before this had happened. I don't care. Listen, that's weakness.

That's an excuse. You got to stop making excuses for your poor choices in life. Again, there will always be reasons, and the world is full of operations. opportunities to make excuses for your shitty and poor choices, and you hanging out and being in his fantasy league, because what, you spend a couple hundred bucks, 50, how much was it to be in this league? That's a hundred bucks. For a hundred dollars, you were selling yourself out at the risk of staying in his world

so that he can emotionally fuck with you from time to time, even if it's just the week that you're playing him or you, you know, like you're still connected to. him. And you are selling yourself out over $100. So quit the league, block his number. And like, if you really are serious about moving forward, you got to start taking those steps. You got to start taking yourself seriously. You know what I'm saying? Like, you got to take yourself seriously. And it starts with those types of choices. Instead of seeing it as a wasted money on a fantasy football league, you don't get the plan. You only signed, you only joined it to be closer to him anyways and you've got to stop yourself and catch yourself and call yourself out

what are other things that you're making excuses for that are stopping you from really moving on um i think it's hard because like we were friends for quite a while before this happened and like the first two years that we were doing this like he was single so i feel like i'm still just kind of like holding on to like the past and like the very beginning and then just like i don't know like you were you were in your early 20s then that's a whole different that's a lifetime ago yeah there's I don't know. I feel like there's other like common interest we shared. So I, like, even though like anyone I could talk to about it, it's like something about like the reminiscing almost of when like sure. Listen, you, you're going to feel like you broke up with someone. So there's an emotional like

healing that you're going to have to do. And it's obviously very complicated for you because you're also processing this thing that you did that you know is wrong. So yeah, give yourself a little bit of grace. This is going to take some time for you to heal. But in the meantime, you got to hold yourself to a higher standard. And until you do, things aren't going to get better for you. Yeah. And just want more for yourself. He's just some guy. And again, like, I understand you had some things in common. You enjoyed his company. And you've, you've spent way too much energy and time focusing on those things. You, you haven't spent enough a time that this man has been lying to this person for five years. He's been lying to you. He is, like,

a liar. He's not a good person. I'm sure he has his excuses and maybe he will also make some changes in his life. But as far as you're concerned, he shouldn't be the type of person you want to be so emotionally bent up over. And you've got to start seeing him in that light. Yeah, I agree with that. So you got to let it go. You got to let him go and be honest with yourself about what you're he represents and who he is and how he's treated you. Pull yourself to a higher standard. Stop making excuses for weak moments in your life and poor choices. Stop making excuses, but why you can't move on.

And then give yourself the credit that you do deserve. So when you do make difficult choices and when you do put in the work, and then try to, you know, compound that. What are you thinking? sorry it's just i haven't talked about it this in depth in a long time so it's just i don't know it's a good wake-up call but it's a lot but no i agree and it's hard because it's like i do want better for myself and i do want to cut him out but it's like the second you know like a opportunity comes up to like talk to him it's like i still just want to take it and it's hard to

like let it just stay in the past even though like i know it needs to and like i know i deserve better and it's not somebody who I want my life, but for whatever reason it is, it's just so hard to give it up. You do need to think you deserve more than this. Yeah. In the past five years, how good has this person made you feel consistently? And I'm not talking about moments of, like, getting what you wanted for brief moments, but I feel like he's caused you a way more emotional stress than happiness. Yeah.

I mean, there was definitely like some moments. you know, that stick out, but like you said, it wasn't consistent. It was just kind of like a highlight reel over the last five years and it's not like it was happening all the time. And I'm guessing rarely happening. Yeah. And I'm guessing there are probably more moments where you made you feel shitty feelings. Definitely.

That's the stuff that you, I think, you need to focus on when you're having a hard time letting him go. So let's block his number and then delete his number and then I I would just not run your team. Let it go. I would say you can make a silly trade with someone, you know. Screw up the whole league. Trade my team away.

I would just leave it. I wouldn't set your roster. I would just leave it. I would not log again again. Is that the only league that you're on in terms of whatever app you guys are running your? I'm in another league. The other one's like more for fun where this one was more. Is it the same app that you guys are using?

Yeah. it's the same amount. I'm guessing there's a way for you to quit one of the leagues somehow. Yeah. Or just have the discipline to not look at it. Because that, yeah, he, that's his, that's how he keeps you around those little silly things. And you got to stop wondering if he's wondering about you. Again, like you, he's been using you and you don't want him to wonder about you. He doesn't care about you in the way that you want him to. And I'm not saying that to hurt your feelings, but you haven't cared enough about yourself and you haven't held yourself to a standard that would make him see you in the way you want

him to see you. But you're still only 27. You got a lot of opportunity to write whatever wrongs that you've made. But I would not focus on self-pity. I would focus on self-improvement. Okay. So, all right? Okay.

You're going to be okay. No more self-pity. Pull yourself to a higher standard. and block them. I will. All right. Well, I love an update from you in about a month. Okay.

I hope that you feel a little bit better about the situation. I hope that you update us with some things that you've been doing to work on yourself. And I hope that if he does reach out, that you don't take the bait. I imagine if he does reach out, I hope you block him to the point where, it's very difficult. But if he finds a way through, he's going to gaslight you. He's going to try to make you feel bad like you did something wrong and it's going to almost, he's going to make it sound like you owe him some kind of apology. Just don't take the bait. Even if he knocks in your door and says he's thinking about you and even if he's thinking about leaving his fiance, like this is

not your guy. There's no world where there's no, I don't think there's anything he should be able to do. to win you back or to get you to want to invest more in this person. I think you would be giving up on yourself if you said yes to him. Yeah. All right. Okay. Okay. All right.

Well, things will get better. You're going through a rough patch right now. Start holding yourself to a higher standard. All right. Well, thank you. I really appreciate it. All right. Take care.

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to $190 versus buying them individually. Plus, if you visit carewayhome.com slash V-I-A-L-1-0 at check out carrowate non-toxic cookware made modern how's it going hi i'm lexie i'm 26 years old and my mom is getting married at the same time as me and i'm just wondering how you would suggest setting boundaries for that situation when you say the same time like on the same day like same weekend same season not the same day but she has hasn't set a date yet and I'm getting married in a couple months and we're suspecting she's getting married a couple weeks before I'm going to be getting married. Why do you feel like you need to set boundaries around this? There's been a couple instances like when I picked up my wedding

dress, we started dress shopping for her at the same time. And then when we were like going through the music for walking down the aisle and stuff, she started pulling up songs that she wanted to walk down the aisle. And at first, I didn't have an issue with it. But then as it's continued happening, it's just felt really weird and bizarre. And I really don't want to step on her toes because I want it to be special for her. But also, it just feels really weird to me. And it's beginning to bug me a little bit more, the more it happens. Okay. What is your relationship with your mom in general? And then follow the question of that. What is your relationship with her fiance? I've always been super close to my mom, but we have our little bickers every now and then.

Sure. And then in regards to her fiance, it's been hit or miss at first. Me and my siblings weren't like the hugest fans, but he's grown on us. And we are. supportive of them getting married. And I don't want her to think that we're not. It's just weird with the timing and everything. Okay. What do you think? I mean, this is definitely like a you problem. And it sounds like you're acknowledging it, that it just bothers you. And it sounds like I'm hearing you recognize that you're not even 100% sure if it should bother you, but you're just acknowledging that it does and trying to figure out what you should do about that feeling. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I brought it up to her and how did you bring it up to her?

So we actually were like trying on wedding dresses at the same time because I was trying wine on and we were figuring out stuff. And I brought it up to her that I just felt like it was kind of weird. And she ended up having a meltdown about the fact that we weren't happy for her. Right. And you use the word weird? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Try not to use that. word with people you're trying to have sensitive conversations with about their actions that, I don't know, bother you somehow, right? Unless it really is weird and not weird like you feel weird about it. But weird is such a judgmental word. And when you're using that to describe how you're feeling about someone else's actions, it's going to really be upsetting to them. I mean, imagine planning your wedding and one of your friends or your mom or someone who's who's opinion mattered to you, right? Came up to you and said like, that's just like weird that you're doing

that. Yeah. You know, you would feel like, well, first of all, you feel very judged. Like, what weird? I'm weird. You know what I'm saying? Like, so try not, try to remove that from your vocabulary if you're trying to have a conversation with someone where you're trying to find some kind of common ground. Okay, that's fair. Yeah. So I'd definitely start there. So not surprising that your mom had a visceral reaction and felt like you didn't support

her in that moment, right? Yeah. From your point of view, I can see why it feels a little weird, right? I'm sure you've imagined getting married. This is your first time getting married? Is that correct? Yeah. Okay. So you're certainly hoping this is the last time. This is your moment. So you're approaching this wedding as this is the one time I'm getting married. And you definitely did not imagine going dress shopping with your mom for both of your dresses. You imagined your mom would be there fully in support of your day, of your moment, of this experience that's yours. And so in that regard, it's weird to you. So I get it. But like again, without using that word or you,

using that language, I feel like you could have just gone to mom and said, hey, mom, like, first of all, before I say anything, really excited for you. Like, I'm really happy you have found love again. And, you know, we love Chuck. He treats you well. I'm really happy for you. Excited to celebrate your wedding. If it's okay with you, and I really hope it is, can we separate planning for your wedding and planning for my wedding? You know, if you want to go dress shopping, let me know, I'm showing up for you, I'll be there for you, let me know. But like, can this also just be my experience for my wedding?

And can you, like, can we separate it? I don't want to take anything from your wedding, but it may be I'm being selfish, mom, but I don't want to share this experience with anyone, even you. I want you to have your own experience, you know, and again, she might still have a problem with that. I don't know. I don't know your mom. But I feel like you're then, you know what I'm saying?

Like the way positioning that is, first, you lead with what you want her to have and you reaffirm your support and you validate her because already, you know, I don't know, I imagine most parents who get remarried and who have young children, or who have children are worried about a sense of judgment and acceptance from their kids about them moving on or remarrying and yada yada yada so make sure when you're having these tough tough conversations be you know take a moment and think about how might mom be sensitive to what i'm saying you know what what might trigger her if i put myself in her shoes you know yada yada yada and i feel like that would go a long way because i don't think you know listen am i right like you just don't

want to you don't want to share this moment yeah i feel like too there's just been a lot of moments that have been shared so she got engaged like two years ago the same day my dad got married okay and so that added a layer where the engagement just started off on the wrong foot i feel like and then my sister is also going to be getting engaged and married anytime now and so all of it together and then us on top of that not knowing when the wedding's going to be. And like, the wedding could be two weeks before mine. Why don't you know? They're waiting for some legal paperwork to get figured out first, but they have made it well known that the second that that's figured out. They want to go ahead

and just do it. And they still expect everyone to be there? Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, you know, that's, again, that that's a logistical conversation, it sounds like. So just a couple of things from what I'm hearing, right? It's not, I wouldn't be shocked if I were to have a chance to talk with your mom, that she feels like she has to work around everyone else's moment. The way you're talking about your mom getting engaged and getting married, it sounds almost like, you know, she had her time. Yeah. And as if like, it's like you're happy for her, but she has less of a, I don't know, we all have people in our family who have a way of making things about them. Yeah. And is that how your mom is?

Does your mom have a way of whether it seems on purpose or not on purpose that she's always, every time someone else is having a moment, your mom coincidentally somehow is also trying to have her own moment? I feel about saying it, but yeah, kind of. Okay. Well, that might be true, but this is definitely that you want to be right. Do you want to be a happy situation? where, like, what is it really costing you?

Yeah. Because, like, that, if your mom is like that, clearly it's coming from some kind of place of not feeling like she's ever gotten whatever validation she feel like she has. And I don't know, maybe your mom's a raging narcissist. I don't know. But chances are maybe she can be a little self-centered

at bad times, and it probably comes from some fucking childhood trauma or, you know, whatever. But I guess the big, as far as you, like, what is it costing you? to like give your mom the benefit of the doubt. As far as her wedding and wedding planning, if your mom wants to like do a shotgun wedding, a lope and immediately get married as soon as she legally can, well, that is her prerogative.

If she wants her family to share in her celebration of her wedding, I'm not saying when you plan a wedding, you have to check in with everyone you want there, but there's a reason why people send out wedding invitation months in advance because they want to give the people who they want at their wedding time to, you know, get their affairs in order and, you know, depending on what flexibility or flexibility they don't have in their lives, it gives people time to, like, make plans. So, you know, you can say, mom, also, as far as when you're going to have this wedding, like, we want to be there

and celebrate with you. But, like, we need a heads up here. And, like, yes, again, I'm not expecting you, get married when you want, but like our wedding date is set. I want to be there to celebrate with you. You know what I'm saying? How many kids, how many siblings do you have? Four. Have you or any of the kids gone out of your way to tell your mom,

we really want to be there for you? No. I just, I couldn't help but wonder if all the kids said that, that your mom would probably be willing to schedule her wedding around you guys. if you made it clear that you wanted to be there. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, so.

Yeah, I agree with that. But yeah, I mean, so it just sounds like, I don't know, sometimes people irritate me all the time, you know, including family members. And sometimes I think we can have family members who just have a way about irritating us. And sometimes we have a knack of kind of seeing some of their flaws rather than offering a little empathy and grace. And there's a little edge that you have towards your mom. Yeah. And again, maybe she's done some things to deserve that edge. But if it doesn't cost you much to give your mom, you know, some validation that she clearly

needs other than like the principle of it, you know, and it just might make your life a hell of a lot easier. Yeah. No, I get where you're coming from. And I agree. Yeah. So step one, I mean, you could probably wrap this all into one conversation with your mom. Yeah, totally.

Hey, mom. I want to talk about our weddings. one like when do you plan on getting married because like we all want to be there and we want to be able to celebrate with you but like we all have busy lives i got a wedding coming up like i don't you know i'm not expecting you to work around our schedules but like we just need to know so we can try to make plans because we all want to be there and support you and we're really happy for you and yada yada and like i think that would go a long way i bet your mom would really appreciate that too mom can we talk about my wedding and like first of all you need to apologize for calling her weird

because that's how she heard it and you got to be like that's a really poor choice of words it's not weird i just i'm you know maybe i'm being a little selfish but i really want my wedding experience to to be about me and i want your second wedding to feel about you so can we just separate the two going forward you know and let me know how i can show up for you mom because I want to do that and and I can you still keep showing up for me but can we I don't can we do it separately I don't want to have like a joint wedding thing you know yeah yeah no that makes sense yeah I think I'll have that conversation with her right that's really good all right well thank you I really appreciate that no wrong glad I can help anything else I can help out with or are you

I think I'm ready to rock and roll all right well let us let us let us let us let's Let me know what mom, if this works. Yeah, I will. I feel like it will. I'll keep you updated. All right. All right. Well, thanks for the call.

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate it. All right. All right. Bye-bye. Bye. At this point, everyone knows, or maybe you don't know, I don't know that I am a certified surgical technologist.

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C-A-H-S dot com slash contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations, and exclusions. How's it going? Hey, Nick. This is Emma. How are you doing today? I'm good. And my name is Seth. Hi, Seth.

How can I help you guys? Well, so I have a long time with smoking marijuana, and it's kind of been something that has just been a constant part of our relationship. And only recently have I really come to terms with using the word of, addiction. And it's really just something that Emma has kind of put up with for a long time and really has finally just put her foot down and kind of made the ultimatum that it's either that or her. Okay. And that's kind of where we're at at this point. Uh, okay. Curious. Uh, interesting. Emma, I'm curious. Like, why are we at the point where you feel like we're at the

ultimatum point? I would say that it's because we've been together for 13 years. And this has really been an issue since day one. And in those 13 years, you know, I think we've seen an advent in marijuana use and the forms that it comes in. I mean, it used to just be like kind of smoking it, but then, you know, the different devices came along and the vapes and all of that. And it just, it started to feel like a third member of our relationship. And what I would say is that the bigger issue that this kind of falls under is that it seems like a lot of behavior over the last few years has just become increasingly selfish. And we have a family now. We have a little girl. And it's selfish in what way? So what I would say kind of ballooned

over the marijuana issue for some time is that we practice what's called ethical nonmonogamy. And my husband actually contracted HPV and gave it to me by having unprotected sex with another partner. And that has led us down a long road of trying to explore the issues in our relationship and kind of our attitudes toward each other. And within that marijuana use and, you know, some other financial issues came up because it just felt like between the ethical nonmonogamy and the smoking and some spending issues, it seemed like a lot of what Seth's actions were, we're really just kind of focused toward his, you know, immediate wants and desires and not on what was best for our family, whereas I feel like I'm kind of constantly working and focused on what's

best for our family and the three of us and not just myself. Okay. Was that like a violation of your guys' trust in terms of having the unprotected sex? Was your expectation he was having protecting sex and then got this HPV and passing on to you? Or was that just like it happened and it sucked, but like no one made a mistake? I'm curious. No. I'm totally. I'm talking. it was me breaking boundaries and me basically thinking like, oh, like, this is kind of a choice that I'm making that really is between me and the partner that I'm having sex with and not really thinking about how this would affect Emma. And like, this happened two years ago. I've really had a chance to sort of reflect on the consequences of that

and understand that, like, wow, like that was a really selfish choice. Were you high on marijuana when it happened? Uh, probably. Yeah. Do you feel like it affected your choice? Like, do you feel like you would have made

a different choice if you weren't on marijuana? No, no. Like, I don't, I don't think like it was. And Emma, you're you're agreeing with him, it sounds like, for the people listening. Yeah. I mean, I I don't smoke. marijuana. I have kind of my own feelings about that that are independent

of him and just how it affects my body. So with, I remember with this particular person, I know that they were a pretty habitual smoker, so I think that that was something that they did together with some regularity. Okay. I also think it was a bit of an issue of, uh, this person

was also not, uh, being particularly responsible with their sexual health. And so it was just like, oh, like you are not only making, choices for your safety, but like you really have to think about your partner's safety. And to expand on that, like, I think that's how things kind of have evolved for like our finances and my marijuana use. Sorry if I'm jumping the gun, but like I have not used marijuana for the past like month and a half. So I know that it seems like we have a number of issues, but I think the

umbrella kind of question that I would have for you is like I feel like my husband's behavior is often incredibly selfish but I do love our life together and we've been together for 13 years and we have a beautiful family and I want to protect that and I'm I'm kind of trying to figure out how to put this stuff in the past and be able to move on because it feels like when we have fights now this stuff comes up and I'll hold the HPV against him or you know the habitual marijuana smoking and things that have been big issues in the past and i know that he's making an effort to be better and i don't want to hold these things against him but i continue finding myself doing so how did you guys do how did you deal with the initial betrayal oh extreme anger i mean you

were actually getting on a plane with our daughter when you found out but how do how have you worked through it if at all we've been in marriage therapy for the past two years okay yeah and i think sometimes you feel like we're not getting a lot out of that and nick i've been such a you know fan and habitual listener of your show for so many years that i i really wanted your perspective on this because i i listened to all the advice episodes and i just feel like you would have a perspective different than either of ours and our therapist is wonderful but i just i wanted to hear what someone who didn't know us and wasn't a therapist had to say well i mean listen i obviously like i don't i haven't talking to you guys for a while but in this little bit this very limited time i

i'm just i guess my big question is why if you want your husband to quit marijuana i would assume and hope that it's solely for health benefits for him you know like other than the financial aspect of it. Obviously, marijuana costs money and then, you know, don't know your guys' financial situation. So certainly that is a, if you're buying marijuana in lieu of, say, buying something for the family that the family needs, and, you know, I guess I get that. But the way you're describing it is if, like, you are, I can't help but wonder if your, your husband hurt you. There's a point of contention here. You're upset. I don't know. I'd love to hear more why you've always like you mentioned addict. Certainly I think marijuana can be an addictive drug, but like,

you know, a lot of people, it's like, hey, it helps me with anxiety. And of all the things that like I do to unwind, you know, I'd rather have a little, you know, a gummy than a get drunk type of thing. And to each their own, so to speak, everything in moderation. But is there a part of you that is taking away his marijuana usage as a point of like retaliation? Because you just want to see if he's willing to do that for you. Yeah, that's a great point. And that's definitely. something that we've talked about. And here's, here's my issue with the marijuana is, you know, personally, I've just never enjoyed it. I don't enjoy the smell. I've never kind of really enjoyed any of the culture around it. I do know that it has a lot of benefits for a lot of people

completely understand that. And for a long time, it felt like it was not this big player in our relationship. It was there and I didn't love it, but, and we certainly had our fights about it earlier on, but I would say in the last five years, you know, since the pandemic happened, since our daughter was born. It just felt like it was always there. It was like this presence that was always in our life. I mean, for years, I would be the one who would put our daughter down for bed and then he would go to the basement and smoke or go to the dispensary and buy what he wanted. Or when it really became an issue recently and when I kind of really gave him like the ultimate ultimatum, which I really didn't want to do, was when he told me that he was going to go to the grocery store, you know,

after we had been somewhere together and I called him and asked where he was. And, you know, he was further away than I, then he should have been at that point. And it came out that he was, you know, lying to me about going to the store and he was really going to the dispensary. And I think that it changes his personality. I think that it, it, it, I love my husband's personality and I think that he is. How, I mean, how much in what way? Like, he gets like a little zoned out and goofy or? It's zoned out.

I think, I think you get a little bit more agitated. Like, we're more likely to fight when you're high. your temper gets a little, you become more testy. I mean, I'll just, yeah, like, for me, I think it was, it was not something I was consuming in moderation. It was kind of like I was consuming it whenever I could or whenever there was an opportune moment. And I wasn't even, like, actually getting high anymore.

And I kind of had this conversation with someone a week or so ago. It's like, I was using marijuana as though I was like a rock stuff. Like, I was just like smoking all day, every day as though I had just like unlimited funds to be able to just do it whenever, wherever. Yeah. Well, and this also meant like it was interrupting our lives also because it would be like he was going to the dispensary all the time. He was smoking at work and affecting his work. Like if we were traveling, when we were travel, he'd be thinking about where he could get it. and it also put a lot of the parenting responsibilities on me because I feel like for so long

I was doing bedtimes by myself or just like doing the nighttime routine because somehow we fell into this routine of you know our night would end and I would take care of our daughter and you would go and I was like kind of itching to like wrap up you know you were you were looking for your chance to be by yourself or like we'd come home from a party or an event or whatever and then it would be like he'd immediately go to the basement to start smoking and have his time for himself. And I want him to have his time for himself. But, you know, when it's one o'clock on a Wednesday and we're supposed to be working or, you know, doing our thing and he's worried about, you know, vaping instead or where he can get more, more weed. It just started to feel

like a huge interruption in our everyday life. So what has it been like in the month and a half you haven't smoked? It has been honestly like a huge relief. Like it, and like, I genuinely, like, hate people who, like, have these, like, born-again, like, sobriety lifestyles. Like, that is not who I am. But it really does, like, have this new clarity to be like, oh, like, weed didn't make you relaxed. Like, you can relax on your own. Like, weed doesn't make you funny.

You're funny on your own. I will say that, like, I'm terrified of the idea of, like, letting my guard down. and like sharing a joint with someone and then getting right back into where I was. And so it's kind of like, I'm not putting a whole lot of effort into keeping my guard up. Like for whatever reason,

thankfully, I really have let go of a lot of desire to smoke again. I mean, I am kind of cautiously waiting for that desire to creep back up again. So I guess what can I help out with? Like what are we, what are you guys trying to, to figure out. So I think, you know, with this kind of selfish behavior, like the smoking, the

HPB, like the sex, the all of it, it feels like my husband is constantly, and I think that you would say this too. He's like constantly seeking like some sort of like high or like something impulsive, whether it's shopping or sex or getting high or something like that. And for context also, I'm sure that this helps is, you know, only in the last year or so have we started been talking about this as like an addiction. And I feel like as millennials, we've been wronged because we've been sold this idea that marijuana isn't addictive. But then when I find my husband, you know, itching for it in the middle of the day when when there's just nothing else is happening, to me that seems like a problem. And I do come from a family where

addiction plays a big part in the family dynamic, unfortunately. So when I started seeing my husband's behavior kind of mirror that of my father, even though it was with a different substance. I was like, oh, we need to do that. And then that added up with, you know, this kind of constant desire to be like dating and doing things in ethical non-monogamy where it showed me that he can't be responsible. It was just like, wow, I am married to someone and have a child with someone and own a house with someone who is really selfish. And I don't know how to contend with that. but I and there have been people who have told me like get out of this marriage while you can while you're young while you could you know maybe have a second marriage but like I I mean I don't doubt that you know I mean obviously the the non monogamy situation was a violation of trust it was not cool obviously and there were consequences to that I guess my point like yes Seth sounds like he has demonstrated some selfishness and that's true he also seems to be to have demonstrated, like, you know, you guys are going to couples therapy. He seems contrite

unless he's like a habitual, like apologizer just for the sake of shutting you up. He also seems like, you know, he hasn't smoked marijuana in a month and a half. He's acknowledged that there's some addictive elements to it. So yeah, it seems a bit extreme for, you know, unless you're leaving some things out here that you're not communicating. It seems extreme that your friends are like, leave this monster and get out while you can. So I guess maybe knowing that this is going to be kind of on a public forum, I am kind of trying to protect some other things. But I also found out two months ago right before he stopped smoking that he had wrapped

up a severe amount of credit card debt. So is that like well over $50,000. And it was a surprise to me. And I think. a lot of and that was really my like that felt like rock bottom to me because i was like i've stayed with this man i'm assuming that's a and that's a great deal of money to you yeah i mean like we we both have good full-time jobs but you know we we live in the san francisco bay area where you know housing isn't cheap and you know you daycare is expensive and so how have you guys

dealt with this i mean like set what's your what's your point of view on this do you feel like you are someone who can be trusted? Yes. I think that's one of the things that we're working through in marriage therapy is that I think, I think Emma and I have had a lot of sort of what our therapist calls like enforcer type. Like, I think I get, I get worried of what her reaction to things are. So I either, like, hide things from her or omit things from her.

um because i'm worried about her reaction to things sure but that's still being dishonest and and that that my yeah i mean i've always been a bit triggered by how that how you're communicating that in a sense that because i feel like it's a very um clever way of quite honestly to your wife's point describing your own selfishness that tries to come across is that you're worried about her feelings as opposed to like yeah you just you don't like you is it like you wanted to do this you considered how it might affect your wife but you didn't care enough to have it stop you and then instead of dealing with the consequences you just didn't tell her because you knew she'd be upset how do you feel about that that that feels right to me and in line with what our therapist has said

And it's, you know, my reactions have become heightened because it just kind of feels like I keep coming, you know, hit after hit. Like first it was, and like our marriage wasn't perfect before the HPV, but it seemed, you know, relative to how things are now, it seemed like things were pretty good. But it was first the HPV and then it felt like the, you know, marijuana use up, you know, went up even more. And then the spending became a little bit crazy. And it got to the point where I was like, am I being smart? for myself and my daughter yeah yeah i mean listen to if if emma constantly has to wonder if she can trust you set it is no fun feeling like you have to play watchdog or cop or detective with your own spouse you know no one like you know for all like you know like you're not supposed to go through your person's phone like yeah you're not you know and no one i don't think most people really want to no one wants to be given reasons why they're not supposed to be able to just take their partner at their word, you know, certainly on a consistent basis. So if your default is to do what you want and then lying about it because, like, you're trying to not upset her,

which is ultimately you being like, I don't want to deal with the consequences of doing what I wanted to do in that moment I wanted to do it. That's not sustainable. Like, yeah, it's, it's exhausting, honestly. And I also, I also like, to me, the marijuana feels like, like the least of your guys's problem. And it kind of, again, kind of comes across as like, well, if I, if it's almost like a test, you know, it's like, is he willing to, you know, there's been several examples of what Seth hasn't been willing to do for Emma. Yeah. And I think to some degree it, it, it, you know, I have treated it like a test. And I, and I, and I, I hate to say that, but you're, you're not wrong

because it feels like, it feels like I've become completely out of control of our life and my marriage because like I'm trying so hard to work. I guess I would put it this way. And again, everything you're describing of marijuana can relate to it on something. It obviously has addictive elements. It certainly might be the least addictive compared to say like alcohol and cocaine and heroin, but it's still addictive. You know, people have gone to rehab to get over marijuana smoking. So like not, not, I'm certainly not an expert on it. I'm not giving any time of medical advice, to be clear. But it certainly seems to be less addictive, no doubt that it changes Seth's personality, probably can found more aloof and just, you know, stinky, whatever.

But again, from what I'm hearing from you, you guys are married, you have this family, you love your husband, I think you feel the love from him, but there are things Seth is doing that is making you feel objectively unsafe in this relationship. You literally contracted a sexually transmitted disease, certainly something you can live with, but it obviously has its risks. Racking up 50K in debt is a very scary situation, unless you guys have money to waste. But even then, there's a violation of trust there. And that can certainly put you guys in compromising situations. And it feels like almost for you, Emma, like getting him to quit marijuana has been like this consolation prize to some of the other violations he's done. But I almost feel

like it's a false flag of comfort because like you know what I'm saying like there's he he clearly has been willing to do it and your problem isn't what Seth's willing to do your problem is when Seth wants to do something and the moment he wants to do it he a doesn't consider your feelings and B is willing to omit or lie about it and so you giving him an ultimatum and something that you can police to me isn't really the problem. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does make sense. And I didn't like giving that ultimatum, but it felt like this was so many years of just built up issues. And it got to the point where I was like, am I just kind of a long for the ride of his life getting to behave how he wants and kind of throw caution to the wind? And I just outright told him, like, you know, if you want

to be a single man and only have responsibility toward your child, I will be okay. What made you guys get into a non-monogamous relationship in the first place? Emma was, we met in college. Emma had a really jealous, previous relationship where, you know, he was looking through her phone and, you know, making comments about like, oh, like, why are you talking to so and so and such and such. And so, you know, I think we had a lot of like really early conversations about it's natural to be flirtatious and have, you know, we're both pretty outgoing people and social butterflies. And I think we just kind of had one conversation that led to another to another. And it kind of all snowballed into like, hey, it's, it's cool to have

desire or interest or fantasies about other people. And we kind of learned through trial and error how to go about doing that responsibly and ethically. And obviously, we've had hits and misses and learning what works and what doesn't. What really felt like our beginning to me was I was in grad school and a friend kissed me like completely out of the blue.

And, you know, I was 25 at the time. Like, I knew nothing in my life but monogamy. You know, I felt like I had to tell Seth because I was like, oh my God, I've cheated and we've been together for five years. And I really loved him. I saw a future with him. So I was like, I have to be honest

about this event that happened. And I was I guess, really happily surprised when I told him and then that turned into kind of a nice, like, evolved conversation rather than, you know, us breaking up or, you know, some sort of worse response from him. Because to that point, I felt like I had done something very wrong. I'm curious, Seth, for the people, for the limited people I know who dabble in this type of lifestyle, what seems to be consistent with him is that what works about it is like there is this extreme trust, You know, like to what Emma just described, it was, oh, my God, this happened. I want to tell him. You told Seth, Seth, you didn't get mad or you worked through it. And like there was a bond there. And there was like, and it became, you know, for all the couples who participated in this, why it works is because it's less about the sex. You guys, those, these people are able to have this like physical, they're able to fulfill these physical desires and kinks that they have while simultaneously, elevating the trust that they have because while most couples aren't comfortable with sharing and

things like that, there's this kind of intense level of trust of being open about being physically intimate with other people. So I'm curious with Seth, like, well, one, like, if you are being dishonest about other things, like the whole, like, I feel like the only way that ethical nagamagmi works, and again, I'm no expert in it, is to have that trust. And yet why I asked the question is that it kind of suggests that like, you know, I don't know what your intentions were in the beginning, but like, you know, there's a lot of people who are in these non-monogamous relationships. And the more questions you ask, it's just like, well, one person didn't want to give up having sex with other people and they convinced their partner. But it really isn't about having this intense trust with each other. It's just about one person getting their way. And so I guess my question to you is like, which one is it more for? you, because in order for making this ethical non-ogamous relationship work, like, if you don't have trust, then how do you guys participate in this lifestyle? I mean, at least, you know, in this aspect, I think we have a lot of trust and a lot of transparency with one another.

And as parents, I think it's taken on a whole new meaning. Yeah, but how do you cherry pick what you're honest about and what you're not honest about? And I mean, I think that's what we discuss in marriage therapy. But continuing my thought, as a husband, I want to see my wife feel her very best and be reminded that she is still very desired and embrace her sexuality and be able to have these really cool experiences where she is exploring her sexuality and being reminded that she is still very desired, and I think that is so important. But do you realize how that all kind of becomes unimportant,

or we can't focus on that when you are making me feel unsafe? Sure. Because I don't feel like I can go and safely have those other relationships when my husband, you know, I'm sending you out out there hoping that when you're dating and doing your thing that you are being safe, because that trust was compromised in such a big way. way. So I appreciate you wanting me to feel all of those good things and I want to feel that too. But it's really hard to focus on that when kind of my basic safety and security in my marriage

was so compromised. Yeah. I mean also like I hear everything you're saying, Seth, but you're getting something out of it too. Sure. I mean, it's a mutual thing that we participate in. Yeah, for sure. But I guess what I'm saying is, you know, to Emma's point, it's just like that's great you want your wife to feel sexually desired and beautiful and in yada yada yada but that's more like two friends supporting each other's kinks rather than a married couple living out a lifestyle but again their primary focus is to have a marriage that works and to have a marriage that works you you have to have trust and you and to em is what you have to feel safe and you can't feel safe in one category of your life and not feel safe in another.

You know, if you can't, and it's like, well, I only lie to her about money. So, like, she shouldn't be worried about me lying to her about sex. Like, I don't think the human brain works that way. I could be wrong. I'm not a psychologist, but I, I... No, you're totally valid on that. Yeah. So I don't know as a human being, how you parmentalize your partner's lies.

A lie just feels like a lie. Well, and I think that that's how, like, what I initially wanted to kind of bring up as my question to you is, like, I think I made a decision to stay in this marriage. Like, I didn't immediately leave him after, after kind of these tough events happen. So I'm like, I'm trying to put the effort forward to stay and make this work and be in the best marriage we can. But I feel myself, like, we get into a fight about the dishes or laundry, and then somehow that snowballs into the HPV or the smoking and like i don't want to do that because i think that frankly i'm a very good person i i really know how to fight and argue logically and have those conversations but i get hurt and

then i like yeah i go back there because i know that that's like the low blow it's a plainful experience i mean like listen that i don't have a that is something you guys are going to have to work through you know like and that's that's what we're doing yeah we're trying but more importantly, the passes of something you guys have to work through in terms of like, you both have to give each other some grace. Seth, you kind of have to give Emma some grace that every once in a while, you might trigger her that makes her go back to that place of those violations of trust. And then she might say something that feels petty and reactive and unproductive and even hurtful on your end. And there's a balance there. The marijuana smoking again, like, you know,

Again, outside of like, it sounds like Seth, you also just appreciate, you know, like maybe you were a little addicted and maybe you're too reliant on it. And there's aspects of you not having smoked for the past six weeks. You see some of those benefits. Again, I still think the ultimate of it is like unproductive as far as the relationship goes. Because like unless you feel like going forward that when Seth wants to do something that he's worried you might not approve of or he doesn't feel like checking in with you and saying, hey, I want to buy this or, hey, I want to do this with this person. If you have to worry constantly whether he's going to be up front with you, that's the thing that you guys have to get work through. That's the thing you have to figure out. It seems unclear whether you guys have figured that out yet. Yeah. And I've been practicing that kind of in a way that feels unnatural for me to be like, hey, like, I want to make this stupid purchase. And I know, know that that's something you're probably going to tell me no. And I don't like hearing that, but it's something that I just need to get used to hearing. But yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, you don't want

to be married, you know. Well, yeah. And that's what I keep saying to him is I'm like, if you just want to like spend the money that you make on whatever you want, including marijuana, and if you want to like, just just only be responsible to our daughter, like, you can do that. But just tell me now when I'm 35 and not when I'm 45 or 55. Right now, I feel like I could go and, like, really continue my life happily. Well, to that end, again, like, not going, not to be, but like you mentioned, again, this ultimatum, right? Where, like, again, if Seth wants to stop smoking marijuana, then definitely, by all

mean, that's, that'd be great. You have every right to, like, kind of, like, be annoyed by him, him consuming a marijuana. That being said, I think it would be a step in the wrong. right direction, if Seth wanted to smoke marijuana and came to you and said, I'm, I would like to, I'm going to go smoke some weed. And I guess you can, you can say no, but unless you really had a problem, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you guys have to practice the ability for Seth to be able to, like, ask you something and you say yes, or even sometimes say no. It's not like, and it's not like, not like you're the mom and you have to parent him, but the extremes of,

never do this. So then he starts hiding it and things like that or you're telling him what to do. And then you have to be able to trust that Seth can like use things in moderate. I mean, you know, moderation. Like if you, to your point, Seth, you're like, you talked about like, well, I started smoking. And I'm smoking all day every day. Well, like, if you are doing that, then, then yeah, maybe, maybe going back to weed smoking is not it for you. But to me, it's more about practicing the communicating and agreeing and compromising and finding common ground and both of you to be able to bring things up where the other person says, I'm not comfortable with that choice right now. And I would, I'd really like you not to do that. And then the other

person saying, okay, well, I don't, I'm not going to do it then. Yeah, I think so often we really have conversations in our own head with the other and kind of make choices based on expectations or or previous interactions and so like we've kind of given the disservice to the other by like not actually communicating and giving the chance to talk things out i mean also you know it's a lot of it is how much you know saying you can't smoke tonight um if my wife said please don't smoke tonight I would respond to that emotionally better than you can't smoke tonight. You know, no one wants to feel like they're married to their parent. You know, I would rather do something for someone than be told I can't do something.

So that's, you know, in terms of like how you guys communicate with each other that always this lands better. That being said, you know, I do think you get as husband and wife, you should honor each other and, you know, be wanting to, you know, and then work on how you guys communicate. but clearly Emma doesn't feel safe. That should bother you, Seth, a lot. And there's no amount of, I let my wife feel sexy is going to make up for the fact that she can't trust her husband, especially the fact that you guys have a kid together. And if I were you, I would allow that to bother me

to the point where you would want to make some meaningful changes. It's your job as a man and as a father and as a husband to make your child and wife feel safe. If you do anything else, like making her feel sexy is way on the bottom compared to making her feel safe. That's just my opinion. You seem to have kind of an emotional reaction of that.

It's just a... Is it tough to hear? It's a lot to say with the limited amount of information. Yeah, of course. Like, there's no way that he can know our whole life. and like i mean i guess my question is to both of you i mean like is i don't want to be speaking at a turn but i'm just i'm just repeating your how you don't feel safe but like i'm just no i i mean frankly i i think that you kind of just said what i had said in a different way and

i i appreciate that you you are a husband and father and i i don't know what it's like to be a husband and father i'm a mother and a wife well i mean honestly it's both your job i i i i i think men want to feel just as safe in their relationships. That's both of your guys's job. Well, and I, you know, he, I think that he would have told me by now if I ever make him feel unsafe. But like I, you know, I, I do take my job, you know, I do work full time and like I take my job very seriously. But I take being a mother and a wife also incredibly seriously. And like, what I tell you all the time is like every decision I make, whether it's, you know, am I going to spend $20 on a salad for lunch, or am I going to, like, you know, have unprotected sex?

I'm thinking about how those decisions impact our family because I know that I am now part of something greater than just myself. Yeah. Do you agree with that? Totally. Do you feel like you show her the same consideration? Yes. I think that you are trying to. I am trying to. I mean, listen, some things are hard to hear, but I, you know, listen, I just, in my opinion you know like if i were you i would want to i would want that to be a non-negotiable for me and listen we all make mistakes and we all like you know all fuck up from time to time but i would just want to know that the people who i care most importantly can really count on me and if she has to wonder in any in any type of regularity whether you're being honest with her

about some very consequential things, it's hard to feel safe in those situations. Yeah, totally. I don't want to be the enforcer. I don't want to say no. But when I feel like, you know, when I have to wonder, are we going to be able to pay the mortgage?

Are we, you know, is my body going to be safe? When I have to ask myself these big questions taking away from my, my me time or my being able to relax, that's when I start to feel like I have to enforce things. I don't like that. I don't like doing that.

I don't want to. I want to be able to just know that you and I are living life together, you know, respecting and loving each other, knowing that we are both always doing what is best for the other in our family. Totally. And I think that you are now working toward that more than you have been in the past. Yeah. And I really appreciate these changes that you've made.

And I, you know, if in the future you want to smoke again, like, that's definitely something that we can talk about. But I've also said that, like, I don't like, I don't really want to like fight to like smoke. Like it's, it's not worth. Yeah. And that's kind of my point about marijuana is that it's like, I don't think we should make marijuana this like centerpiece of your guys's problem. Because to me it's not, right? Yeah. You guys, you can't even predict what, like, I don't know what Seth's going to want to do in the future.

neither do, or Seth might not even know what he wants to do in the future, that in his gut, he's going to know that you are, you know, he knows you well enough to know what you're going to be down for and what you might not be down for at this point. And if Seth wants to do something that he feels like you might not be down for, Emma, his default has been to at times to still go through with it and then consider the consequences later at best. That is what I'm hearing, your guys's problem you know what I'm saying like it's been money in the past it's been sex in the past maybe it'll be money and sex in the future but like at the end of the day that's what makes lying so scary and makes the people feel unsafe is because you don't know what the next thing

your partner is going to want to lie about yeah yeah and that's that's what I've had to think about for the last two years is like because you know like I found out this news about the HPV one day when I was like walking into work and it just it felt like a bomb was being dropped on my existence yeah i mean like without being dramatic it just feels like there have now been a couple of times where i found out extremely bad news really suddenly and i was not prepared for it yeah i listen i i i get the sentence that you struggle with some tough tough love what is that thing what do you mean well i mean just like are you sensitive do you think you're sensitive yeah but i mean which most

Most of us are, but I think it's hard for you to hear some strange guy like me calling you out for, you know, not showing up as a husband and a father at certain aspects of your marriage. I mean, I take a lot of issue with you calling me out for not showing up as a father. Like husband, sure. Well, I mean, I think that this go hand in hand. I mean, I don't, you know, like this all. It's like, I don't know, spending $50,000 not telling anyone is that there's, there is a. a through line there a little bit, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. And I guess my point is, I'm glad it bothers you, but you've got to find the thing that holds you accountable in these

moments where you don't want to answer to anyone. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, I think at the end of the day, or kind of the underlying issue here is I think I have a lot of bitterness about not having the income or means to match the aspiration or lifestyle that I think we deserve. Okay, that's fair. You know, we live in Silicon Valley and we are just surrounded by wealth in our face. We come from high income families who had the benefit of six-figure jobs with pensions and nannies and things that just will never really be afforded to us because we didn't go to Ivy League schools to become engineers. And something that I'm kind of always trying to talk to Seth about is like, yeah, I did come

from a lot of wealth. But I've realized that wealth does not equate to happiness. Yes, I would like a little bit more financial freedom. my father made a lot of money in his lifetime and he yeah there's a lot of yeah you would not be able to see that it makes things it makes some things easier and it takes some stresses off your plate that's literally it that's all it's all it really does um it's like you don't have to worry about getting a parking ticket sometimes in a world where you might otherwise worry about getting a parking ticket like honestly um and i get a parking ticket and i'm ready to like beat someone

with my bare hands. And, you know, a little extra cash goes a long way there. But to that point, Seth, $50,000 pays for a lot of parking tickets. Um, you know, trips, shoes, like all the things that you like to buy. Well, yeah, it's because like, I'm like, fuck it. Like, you only live once and I want our family to live well. Well, I mean, again, living well is this a matter of perspective. So, you know. Um, but like, I feel, I feel like we have a four and a half year old daughter and I feel like no one in the world has a better life than me when our daughter is like, oh, I want a family hub or let's sit and watch a movie together. Nick, all of this is to come for you and it's amazing. And it's like knowing how much she loves us and wants to spend time with this. I know it sounds cheesy, but like that's what means the most to me. No, and, and, you know, a couple weeks ago, um, um, I had a really good. Um, I had a really good. session with this therapist where he and I were kind of discussing some of this and he was like

you know when you're lying there having your last breath are you really going to think about the house or the cars that you owned or are you going to like look at like your family standing around you in your room and thinking about the moments that you had with your kids yeah it was like think about that for a moment you know and it's like that just like I don't know why it took so long for that to like register with me. And I had that exact conversation with my college roommate's father who is retired and living well. And I kind of had that same exact conversation with them. And he's like, yeah, I am so enjoying every moment of being a grandfather. And just that is what's worth living for. And that's what's worth, you know.

All these people who think make so much more money are quote, quote like have more than us like no one ever really knows what other people are dealing with yeah yeah and and and like i don't i don't necessarily want all of that money or responsibility i just want i want to have a happy life at home with you and yeah i want to travel and buy a nice bag once every couple of years but like you know we i don't need to constantly be jetting off somewhere to be happy with you i just want to be like at the park with you and our kid for as cheesy as it sounds Yes. And I wish that I could genuinely feel that more often. And I feel like I need to try more than I naturally should if I'm being perfectly. Yeah, because it seems like something that you struggle with. And that's what over these last few years, like what I'm trying to get you to come back to is like, you know, no matter how much fun you have with someone in E&M or what shoes you buy,

or where we travel to or how much you smoke. Like, personally, I don't think that any of those things will bring you the gratification of just knowing that you have a wife and daughter who love you. I feel so freaking cheesy for everything that I'm saying, but I don't care because it's how I really... Yeah, I mean, it's fine. It makes a lot of sense. But to that at a point, again, like, I'm glad you took exception

to me calling you out whether you thought it was fair or not, but to, you know, lean on those emotions in the sense that, like, you know, listen, like a lot of what you're describing, Seth, is this like ego-driven insecurities or thoughts? You know, what they say? The comparison is the thief of joy. You're surrounded by people who have all this wealth. And so like to some degree, like you kind of just have to get over yourself and your ego and like check yourself. Like everything you're, you're feeling is like, I mean, we all feel it to some degree. I mean, I definitely haven't been any happier in my life since my financial.

situation has improved. I mean, I've always, I'm in, I'm living my happiest moment in my life right now for a lot of things, but like the money's only caused more stress. You know, there's a stress of like, you know, keeping it going, et cetera, et cetera. So like all those things that you're describing kind of to your wife's point, like it really doesn't, honestly, that's never going to change. The part of you that is having a hard time controlling your ego to the point where it makes, you act out destructively in ways that hurt your wife's feelings, will be inside you if you, tomorrow you woke up in your financial earning increased tenfold. You would still be able to compare yourself to people and feel less than, because again, these are ego-driven

thoughts. And to your wife's point, like showing up as a husband and as a father, in most cases costs you nothing other than you prioritizing them over yourself. You know, it's literally the whole joy of being a husband and as a father is you have the opportunity to wake up every day and get something out of thinking of other people before thinking of yourself. And in a way, that's like an incredible gift because, again, it costs you nothing other than selflessness. And it's not even that selfless because you are getting something out of it. Like, you know, in most men, their love language is some kind of act of service showing up and like lean into those emotions. But like, it should bother you when you don't show up. And, you know, like every parent and every

spouse always like, don't question me as a father or as a husband. But like, oh, sometimes we, you know, don't show up as fathers and husbands and wives and moms. And sometimes, Sometimes, and I'm glad that really triggers you because at least you give a shit. So some parents don't care. No, yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of shitty fathers. And I take a lot of pride in thinking that I do show up and that I care a lot about my wife and my daughter and lean hard into some pretty progressive values.

Yeah, but also, you know, again, you have to be, you also have to be willing to call yourself out when you don't show up. and totally totally i appreciate you holding that mirror to me and not always fight me back when i'm calling you up because i i would like to think that everything that i say to you is said with love and with just one like with my eye on this this idea of just us having a good life together yeah like it doesn't have to be fancy to be good and happy and in some of your what i'm hearing some of your these things that we're talking about set is what's for black of a better word, a bit petulant in nature. You're just kind of like, you know,

sometimes I just want to do what I want to do when I want to do it. And there's a very like childlike element to that. And that is very much the opposite of dad and husband energy. You know, like that is, that is a sacrifice that adults, husbands, wives, you know, make, you know. And again, it's not a completely selfless act because it's actually one of the most fulfilling feelings that any of us can feel to feel like, you know, to be called a good husband, to be called a good father, because a lot of people aren't. But like we don't, it's, you know, so you have to be willing to recognize that in those moments where you want to have your cake and eat it too, you have to be willing to like check yourself and you have to be willing to like, ask, communicate with

your wife about things that you know that she might not be down for and have to be willing to make that sacrifice because like more than anything like being a good parent is leading by example right now your child's only four and a half years you know she's not that you know she's probably getting more and more observant um but at some point you know she's going to be a 10 11 12 year old and a 15 year old girl and she'll be very intuned to your guys's relationship and the secrets that are kept are not kept and the in the fights that you guys have and things like that and she will be very aware. It will be very difficult to hide your wife finding out that you, you, you lied to her about spending $30,000 on something she knew nothing about. And like, you know, those are the things that

if I were you, I would be mindful for and want to, if for no other reason to check yourself is because that's not the energy that you would want your daughter to observe. Yeah, she's definitely more observance than ever, which is making us reevaluate kind of how we do a lot of things. And, And, you know, I think that that's a good point. She notices when we're gone. She notices when we're arguing. Like, she notices when we're yelling. And I don't like that.

And again, I'm no expert in non-monogamy. But, like, I feel like maybe for the time being until, like, I feel like that's something a couple should, like, if you're into that sort of thing, be something you guys do with each other when everything else is in unison, when everyone else is feeling connected. but if you don't have radical trust in a relationship, I just don't know how you can get the most out of that type of relationship. And I do feel like if it's practiced without a lot of trust and security, I feel like it can cause more damage than good.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Well, thank you so much, Nick, for your time, long-time, long-time listener. Listen, you guys seem like you have a good thing going, despite all your flaws in the relationship and ever, you know, but more than anything you just need to want to show up appreciate that we do really love each other well thank you thank you for you and your team and all of your time and you know hopeful you know I think we'll continue to process all of this and and talk about it and you want to say thank you yeah thank you well thanks for you guys this time okay take care bye bye enjoy your day all right bye

Thank you.