The Viall Files - E103 Ask Nick- Nice Guys Finish Last with Amy Kaufman

Episode Date: March 9, 2020

LA Times Reporter Amy Kaufman helps us answer fan questions. But first, she grills Nick on his dating choices. Then we talk to someone who left a controlling church environment, someone who is confused by guys who change once they’re her boyfriend, a woman who hates nice guys, and someone with a toxic boss. Get your ViFi merch at http://shop.viallfiles.com. THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: ROTHY’S: http://rothys.com/viall FIGS: CODE: https://www.wearfigs.com VIALL15 MODERN FERTILITY: http://modernfertility.com/viall BUTCHER BOX: http://butcherbox.com/viall  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Oh, what's going on everybody? I was checking my texts as we did the intro. Usually I time it at a certain part of the song and for the first time... What kind of text you got on there? Uh-oh. I just, I haven't been checking my phone. He is not answering. The text? Is it from a lady? This particular person is a lady.

It's neither here nor there. Anyways, thanks for listening, guys. Thanks for tuning in. Happy Monday. We have an exciting show for you. I'm joined by my friend and talented writer, LA Times reporter, Amy Kaufman. Woo-hoo! Author.

Thanks for having me. And amongst others, Twitter... Twitter snarker. Twitter snarker and bachelor critiquer? But I love the batch. I know you do. Yeah. Anyways, you're going to join us and help us answer some fan dating questions.

Amy, I thought would be great, not only for her intelligence and work at LA Times, but you are out there dating like the rest of us. I'm on the streets. And you are also vocal on Twitter about some of your own dating challenges. Oh, you have observed. Yeah, I follow you. That's true. you've observed yeah i follow you that's true um and so yeah it's always nice to have someone who's uh in the weeds and at the front line like the rest of us are i have you found that like whenever i share a bad dating story and there are a lot i never get more response that's always like

what people relate to like they just oh people love, people love it. Yeah. Love it. Well, I mean, I've said this before, like dating is hard. It's by definition, the hard part about dating is that it's meant to be hard. You know, our concepts of love, and we kind of talk about this in the episode today, is that we, you know, love is meant to be special. And most things that are special aren't easy. And if, because if they were easy, everyone would have them, so to speak. But it's kind of like this weird contradiction because we want everyone's deserving of love,

et cetera, et cetera. But we have this in our head that we have these standards and expectations. You know what? Standards and expectations are good to have, but it's tricky. I mean, I love it. Nick and I have gotten in a few battles about this because there are certain things that i think should be standards that he thinks are too harsh yeah i mean i've gone on dates with people like people always say like oh i have high standards i mean i say that too

we all say that but like sometimes it's like you know what your standards can shove it like whatever what are your standards i think this this is gonna sound so bad i think the specific one was about uh a friend of ours we were talking to who um was considering dating a bartender and you said no and i advised against it and i was like well you can't go on a date with a bartender she can go on a date but like is that her husband i don't know, but like, that sounds so bad here.

I'm just saying like, if you like this woman in particular was looking for someone who would like, you know, had a, like a career they were passionate about and weren't just filling time with, and maybe had gone to college for that passion or whatever. And like, I do think that's kind of indicative of

someone's personality i mean i'm a i'm a big believer that the reason why stereotypes exist is because they're often can be true yeah but that that's it's dangerous to um make our decisions in life thinking stereotypes are an absolute truth and there's no exceptions to these rules like all my friends in la are bartenders but they're like working towards their dreams you know and they're like hustling right uh yeah that's just not for me personally but bill gates was a college dropout you know you know it's just like when we start doing those things and i you know when people talk about standards like well i have certain standards and expectations it's like well great but like the difference between you going on a date with this bartender guy and not is like you're just going to sit home and

watch like or something you're going to spend 20 minutes finding something to watch you've already seen on netflix so yes like but if you're going on a lot of dates at a certain point you're like you can burn out. Yes. Totally. And it's a balance. You come and go. But I just think sometimes we need to... There's a difference between I have high standards and as we talk about in this episode, like having expectations of things that you want in a relationship from your partner.

Right. I mean, I get that that can seem sort of artificial or superficial, but I would be lying. And I think a lot of women would be if they said they didn't judge. A book by its cover. Or like, of course, I think, oh, men judge only looks. That's what they're looking for.

I'm artificial in other ways. Like this week, I've been talking to this guy who is in the cannabis business. Okay, interesting. And I'm like- Raises potential red flags. Exactly. That doesn't mean he. Okay, interesting. And I'm like- Raises potential red flag. Exactly. That doesn't mean he's not really interesting.

I'm still talking to him, but in the back of my head, I'm like, does this guy, is he always stoned? Is this like some sort of shady industry? Like, you know? Those are both totally fair questions and there's a better than 50 chance

the answer to both of those questions is yes. But there's a better than 50 chance the answer to both those questions is yes but there's also but you're an advocate for always figuring it out or trying it out if you have an interest in someone and there's other things that you are attracted to like as long as you're aware and you're asking the right questions up front as we talk about again in this relationship what's wrong with like vetting it out because if we start because we start we yeah i also like nothing bothers me more it's like i'm just too busy to waste my time doing i'm not saying that i'm not saying you are saying that but we people say that no you're so busy like i'm a pretty i'm really busy i'm doing a lot of things so busy but i also have a lot of fucking free time you know what i'm saying like i'm really busy but like most of my wednesday nights pretty free honestly you know so like am i so busy that i

can't like go grab a drink with someone i'm curious about but i don't have all the answers to no i'm not that busy you know my time's too valuable to go out with someone who like i just don't think is perfect for me i'm not even gonna call you on the things that your standards are oh such as i really want to hear what you're about to say can they cut something out if you don't want it in there yeah this is my show yeah but you're gonna say like looks no i'm gonna say the fact that you think you should be dating someone who is in the public eye. I never have said that. No, he doesn't. I'll say that.

Okay. What is making you say this? That you think dating someone... Oh, my God! I've said to you, and I've said this on the show, that when I do date someone in the public eye, there's a level of safety that i feel from that person right that's one upside of that situation there are downsides to it too you have expressed that you feel like it is unlikely that you're gonna

find your partner if they're just like an average joe i didn't say that no i said i have the receipts oh i've never heard him say that i have said that like i when it comes to dating someone who doesn't have any experience and that could be uh it could be literally a stylist you know like a hairdresser or someone who works in production someone who just like is involved, like you are in the public eye to a certain degree. You know what I'm saying? Like you work in the LA Times and you interview like the biggest celebrities in the world and you've been to like all the Oscar. I've never been to the Oscar. You know what I'm saying? You have a level of insight to that world in which you can relate. And relatability is paramount in every relationship and that's all i'm simply saying so

if i were to say mate meet someone who can't relate to my very unique experiences it presents challenges what kind of challenges like having to explain myself and have that person never really understanding yeah but what if they have a okay let, let's, this is, I think, the road we went down. Like, what if they were a doctor or in some industry that you knew nothing about? Again, I go out with doctors and teachers and nurses and people who have, all the time, I go out with those types of people more often than I go out with, quote unquote, celebrities. And yet, you're still, I'm not talking about celebrities. I'm talking about. Public, whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just saying the amount of, if I go go on 10 dates i'm going to guess like eight of them with people who are not in the public eye okay so what's your what's your dating life right now it's active it's active yeah would you do you use apps that are would you only use ryer would you use normal apps i would definitely not use normal apps. See, I think that's how the conversation starts. But for me specifically, not only am I like someone who has been in the public eye, but I'm specifically in the public eye because of dating. But I've seen people from The Bachelor on like apps.

Good for them. They've probably got paid to be on it. So what, you think it would make you look thirsty or has it no uh it has a level of protect you can certainly like the rio one we've talked about yeah you can't they're they like privacy is big to them yeah other apps it's not as important you can screenshot away you can like it's pretty easy to like there's there i'm i'm on all the dating apps it just is like chris 24 from like utah you know they've stole my picture and you know it's a catfish situation like there's a lot

of apps who aren't policing that and what i'm saying is there's a level of privacy they don't offer you can't do that on other apps where like they you know to get in there's a it's kind of you just don't want your profile being blasted online. Yeah, I also don't want to give anyone access to me. I mean, normal people say that. What do you mean you don't want to give? Anyone could slide in your DMs. Sure, and I have the option to let them know if I read it. Just the same on an app.

It's not the same. Do you disagree, Rochelle, about if you should be on regular dating app or that like that is giving the world access to him i just know he's a little bit like he gets like anxious and paranoid you know i just don't i'm not saying i'm that's just his nature i just don't feel safe doing i don't think he i think he would i just don't think he would he's you know and also I'm sorry I don't think I'm crazy like there's a lot of like yeah I don't have to explain myself a lot to a lot like if I go on a date with someone who has no insight to my unique experience of the past five years there's a lot of time explaining it and you don't like that it has nothing to do

with that but i never feel like they totally relate they try to relate and there's a difference between trying to relate and actually relating and it's not easy to do it takes it takes a unique i guess it's interesting to me that that is it feels so essential to you to relate on that uh it's not even that but i think relating in general is important and And what I did was unique. So you have to be someone who's had a similar, very unique experience that they might have a hard time explaining to someone else. You mentioned being a doctor.

I don't know what it's like to say, be a heart surgeon and have to deal with like death and that's so unique. And just someone's ability to say say this is very hard to explain to people and i have i have a hard time people i feel like people don't understand already that's like a bonus for me because just that experience be able to relate uh because most times like most people have a hard time most a lot of people are just like you know this is how it should be and whatever everyone's the same and and that can be a challenge

that's all okay just a few points on that that's fine which is why Amy's with us yeah I like you calling him out that's fine that's our friendship yeah I know I mean I'm always right with this Nick no you're not always right and it's nice to have

i don't have all the answers so i i enjoy how did you like i was telling a friend that i was coming on this and they're like how did nick become like a dating expert person i started giving my opinion and people liked it that's instagram right on instagram sure yeah like i'm good at having an opinion and uh people like it and like i tell i'm not an expert do you feel pressure to have your dating life be successful because you're giving advice on people no i know people will say like oh well you have actually quite opposite the more experiences you have and the more failures, the more you learn. I would have a hard time listening to someone give dating advice if they're like, well, I've, you know, I've been in the most amazing relationship. I met him when I was 22 and like, everything's kind of just perfect and we don't really deal with challenges and we,

okay, I don't know what I can learn there. You know, it's hard for them again to relate. You know, when I, as far as like, when I give people advice on The Bachelor, I've been, I've played every role. I've been the villain. I've been the hero. I've been on Bachelor in Paradise. I've been The Bachelor. There's not anyone who's gone, goes on that show. I've, I've ended up with the winner. So I haven't been the winner, but I dated the winner for eight months and I've heard their challenges and points of views and I've lived with them. And so like, there's not a person who goes on bachelor nation that I can't say,

well, and I get that. And this is what you might experience. And here's some of my advice. And that only comes from like having done that and failed, you know what I'm saying? And lived through it. So, you know, that's, that's why I like getting advice. Well, you can't give the advice of someone who's married, like the, the. Yeah. Right. And I can say, well, this is what I think. And that's what I like getting advice. Well, you can't give the advice of someone who's married, like the... Yeah. Right. And I can say, well, this is what I think and this is what I've learned from my parents. But, you know, when I don't know, I'm like, go get professional help. You know, one thing Nick and I do agree on is Peter and the fact that he's getting so much shit.

Yeah. I think Peter's getting a tough beat. But don't they always? Always. Yeah. I think Peter's getting a tough beat. But don't they always? Always. Yeah, but like, I'm so surprised by this because he's not a bad person.

Right. That's what, Amy and I have talked about this. Whatever you think of Peter as the bachelor, he has proven that what he is

is a guy who's sincere, earnest, honest, seems to be respectful, shows empathy. Oh my God, was he sitting here? Yeah. Yeah, on that very to be respectful, shows empathy. Oh my God, was he sitting here? Yeah, on that very couch.

Are you sexually attracted to him? Oh, wow, she just came. I'm just kidding. Also, like in person, Peter has swag and he is charming. But that's the thing, is like that's what, so my friends,

a lot of female friends I have will be like, oh, he's like a pussy. He's like, he doesn't know what he wants. And that's what's unattractive to them. But I'm like, but have you guys seen him lift a woman on a table and push a woman against a wall? He clearly has, as Nick would say, swag in the bedroom.

So that sort of evens it out for me. I'm like, yes, he's a mosh. But he's also like dominate. As I've described him as a alpha masquerading as a beta. Oh, I like that. Yeah. That's hot. I relate to that.

I feel like you're more alpha. Yeah, you don't. What part of you is beta? I don't. I don't. You know how you those alpha guys are like, I'm alpha. The tattoo. Like, I've never claimed to be an alpha i never

talk about being an alpha you're confident in your opinion sure which is alpha e i'm not saying i don't have qualities that might demonstrate but i'm saying is uh listen if i were the bachelor at 28 i i would i see a lot of similarities to peter and i would i was 35 wow so if i were you would have been peter i would have been peter more i would have been close to peter i would have been yeah i would have been like very like earnest and i would have tried to like emulate my parents and i would have just been like you know i would have wanted to have sex but really been drawn to the person who says she's saving herself for marriage like oh my totally 100 and i would have been a total mess and i would have been like trying to make everyone happy i would have been a total mess and i would have

been like trying to make everyone happy i would have been a total shit show good thing you were not a total shit show 35 yeah wow shade shade anyway should we get to these questions let's do it all right guys well uh you're in for a good show don't forget to send your questions at ask nick at cast media.com cast with a K and make sure to check us out tomorrow for Bachelor Recapping. Rothie. Oh, love my

Rothies. Your Rothies? I mean, I wish. They're for women, people. They are the most comfortable shoes I own and Nick can attest I wear them almost every day. And I'm able to do that because I can just throw them in the wash and make them clean again.

But made by recyclable materials. Yeah. That's just doing great things for the world. Exactly. And they have so many new colors. They always are coming out with new designs and new colors, and I'm obsessed with their new spring collection. Every date I go on, I gift them with Rothy's.

You gift every date with Rothy's? That's a bold statement. I'm just like helping the world be sustainable and have a great fashion. And I'll tell you what, they're very appreciative. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Gets me to the second date. After that, it's pretty much over.

But other than that uh yeah everyone's loving them they're great uh i'm seeing them all over people talking about them i'm like hey i walk up and i'm flying the airport uh are you wearing a rothys like yes i am how'd you know i'm like because you look hot and so yeah i mean it's also just a great travels thing to put on your feet am i right rochelle yeah anyway Anyway, go check out all the amazing styles available right now at rothys.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Go to rothys.com slash V-I-A-L-L to get your new favorite flats, comfort, style, and sustainability. Those are the shoes you've been waiting for. Head to rothys.com slash V-I-A-L-L today.

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And if you've worn other kinds of scrubs, you know that is definitely not the case. So is there a doctor in your house or a vet tech or a radiologist or any other awesome human in the medical industry? And even if you don't work

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I mean, let's go. Get them on the figs train, people. Listeners of The Vile Files are getting 15% off for a limited time. Go to wearfigs.com. That's W-E-A-R-F-I-G-S.com and enter promo code V-I-A-L-L 15. That's V-I-A-L-L 15 at checkout. let's ask nick your sexy questions hi what's up okay uh i'm i'm hannah i'm 24 um and i was i wrote in because i recently left my um church that I grew up in. I'd been in it for 19 years.

And it was like the biggest part of my life. Like all of my friends were in the church. I only really dated people in the church. I lived with people in the church. And so it's been like hard leaving and like trying to meet new people slash also having like all my friends not really accept like what I'm doing. So I mean, that's like a short story, short version, but I guess I just was wondering like how to navigate that and just having like a hard time like i don't know like meeting people slash like feeling okay about what i'm doing when my friends

don't agree yeah we're um you don't have to give specifics but do you live in a small city a big city um it's like a pretty big city okay um it's. So it's not like you live in the middle of nowhere and the only people there are people in your church and you left? No. Okay. It's like around a really big college. Okay. Yeah. How long ago did you make this decision?

It was like middle of December. Okay. So it's pretty fresh pretty fresh yeah yeah um and can we ask like what led you to to finally do it um well i think i just felt like i wasn't being like authentic like because i was doing so much like i was leading a bible study it was like every night of the week i had something and i just was like doubting it and like didn't feel like i had any like freedom in my life to like choose what i wanted and so i just like couldn't deal with it anymore and sure um just decided to leave um family wise, like, how's your family response to this?

So my parents are, like, supportive, but my brothers are both still in the church, and they, like, they're not, like, not supportive, but they just don't totally understand. Like, they've said some, like, things, like, you're leaving God and, like, I don't totally understand like they've said some like things like you're leaving god and like i don't know like dramatic things yeah that's dramatic um is are you able to share like uh what faith you like you you practiced or was it christian of some sort yeah yeah i'm a Christian. Okay.

And are you like, have you just been like, eh, church, God, not for me, or this particular church that you were part of, this community? You know what I'm saying? Is it more just leaving that, or is it leaving kind of like practicing religion altogether? I mean, I don't know for sure i feel like i still believe it but being like involved anywhere right now seems kind of overwhelming sure like i don't know like how committed i want to be to like that lifestyle yeah i guess but so your original question was sort of like how you find a new community of people right yeah well i think that's and i feel like it's just like a lot to like tell people when i meet them

like it's like it's like a lot of baggage that i'm like i don't know so yeah i'm curious i'm curious about what do you feel when you like you meet people why do you feel like what what baggage do you feel like you have and what do you feel like you need to tell people because why do you feel like, what, what baggage do you feel like you have? And what do you feel like you need to tell people? Because to me, you just seem like a nice, normal person, you know, who, you know, used to go to church, which is kind of a lot of people. Yeah. But maybe we're It just like took up my whole life. So I'm just like i'm pretty like i don't know if i would say i'm like sheltered but like i don't know a lot of like i don't i mean i know things but i haven't like experienced a lot of things and i think i don't know how to like like all my

friendships were kind of like based on like having the same values and stuff. And now it's like, I just don't, I feel like I have to tell people like that. I don't have very many friends or like whatever. I don't know. I don't think you have to do that. Yeah. You don't, you don't have to do that at all. You know, look, it's interesting.

Like what you're going through is, is it's similar to like a breakup of, of some kind you know people could be in a a relationship where uh they just kind of stop hanging out with all their friends you know they kind of isolate themselves and then like two years later that relationship doesn't work out and you're like shit you know like i lost all my friends because i only hung out with this one person or sometimes you know or you move um you know there's a lot of reasons why people at your age at 23, 24 might kind of find themselves, uh, searching for a new community. I think that's what you said, Amy. And I think that's a great way of putting it. Um, the fact that it has to do with religion, you know, is unique to you, but I don't think it's

that much about, especially as it relates to meeting other people. Like you don't have to explain yourself. You're not, you're not like a, like a weirdo. But the comment you made about you feel like you're sheltered, does that pertain to like, you feel like you, there are specific types of people you want to be looking to hang out with, or like you think they're going to want to go to bars or they're going to be interested in different things than you are i mean yeah like i have been going to bars and stuff and like meeting guys and new people but it's like i just feel like i'm like i don't know it's just i'm not used to it or like super comfortable still um that's the thing.

It's going to like, is it going, what you're like, what you're, what you decided to do is going to take time. So my, my first thing I would say to you is you're going to have to be patient with yourself.

Um, it's not going to be like something in a few weeks. You'd be like, Oh, I made the right decision. This is going to be like, this is fun and easy and easier than I thought. Like,

as you said, you're resetting so much of your life, friends, some family members, a belief system that you grew up kind of really believing in that you're changing. So most of, I think your struggles are going to come internally from you and your fears and worries that like, especially when it comes to like what people might think of you are probably going to be way more in your head than in reality. You know, especially because when you go out and meet people, no one's going to be like, oh, so like, oh, this is a girl. She clearly left her church or something. You know what I'm saying? Like, no one's going to notice this. Like,

you're just a normal person who's going to go out and meet someone and make new friends. And I think you'd be surprised by how many people also feel uncomfortable in those same situations. Like I don't drink. So like I go on a lot of first dates and I'll go to a bar, but like, it's always a thing of like, why aren't you drinking? And I, you know, like there's always a discussion and that can be awkward sometimes, but other times it's like a lot of other people also aren't huge drinkers or, you know, aren't like cruising at bars for one night stands or whatever it is, you know? So like, I think you'll,

once you start getting out there, you'll realize that there are other people who feel similar to you. Modern fertility. Know how the oven's working. You know? Yeah. Every oven sometimes needs maintenance sometimes you know not every oven works the same and i oven you're talking about women's reproductive organs

making shit up i don't know i you know listen um for so many reasons i i empathize uh with you women and the shit you guys have to do with that we don't you know yeah but tell you what uh having a baby uh is obviously so many people's goals uh men men and women and there's a lot of questions that go into your someone's fertility and so for the women out there who are looking for more information and at a more affordable rate modern fertility has the answer for you right rochelle yeah i mean i did it. I'm 33 and I was kind of wondering what was going on. So they sent me a kit. I pricked my finger, put it on this little piece of paper, send it back in. And then within 10 days, they gave me personalized results,

let me know what was going on. And then they offered, you know, I could meet with a fertility specialist. So, and it was super affordable and really easy. Yeah. And it's like what, a fraction of the cost? Oh, yeah. It was $159 and traditional testing costs over $1,000. And right now, Modern Fertility is offering our listeners another $20 off. So that's $139. Your test, when you go to modernfertility.com slash V-I-A-L-L, again, that means your test when you go to modernfertility.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Again, that means your test will cost $139 instead of the hundreds or thousands it could cost you at a doctor's office. Get $20 off your fertility test when you go to modernfertility.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Modernfertility.com slash V-I-A-L-L.

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two pounds of ground beef in every box for the life of your subscription plus 20 off your first box just go to butcherbox.com slash v i a l or enter promo code V-I-A-L-L at checkout. That's ButcherBox.com slash V-I-A-L-L or enter promo code V-I-A-L-L at checkout. Other than going to bars, have you done anything since December to, have you joined any groups or clubs or what have you done to kind of expand your community? Yeah. My advice to you is like just try something right you know recreational like sports teams yeah i don't even know if you it doesn't even matter if you like sports you know you just kind of go yeah there's like kickball things yeah you know um there's trivia nights or whatever there's i don't whatever you know i would start with what

your interests are club yeah and see if there's like if you're in any type of like bigger city they're gonna there's gonna be recreational groups whatever that is you know uh what did you make friends when you moved to your neck uh i had a kind of yeah i kind of had like a couple friends and then you start there and then you meet their friends. So it's kind of the thing. You just kind of find one or two friends and then you may not be friends with that person a year or two, but they might introduce you to someone and you make a connection. What do you do for work? I'm in school still.

I'm doing social work. Okay. So I have some school friends and then I have, I just work at like a country club and I have coworkers. So, you know i always say on the show shavings make a pile you know you just kind of start and you know but but i think the big thing with you is don't beat yourself up right now about your decision uh because you're going through moments of like hardship and and. And it's, you know, like it's brave of you to follow your heart

and do something that didn't feel right, especially because I'm assuming it was difficult and it came with a lot of shame and a lot of criticism from people that you felt the closest to. That's not easy to do. And so good for you for doing that. But it's going to take some time, you know, like to rebuild your community that you left

might take a year or two. And that's okay, you know, and I don't think you should be discouraged by that. But in the meantime, you are going to meet people. You're going to have some interesting interactions. Some will be fun and exciting. Some will probably be terrible and awkward. And that's okay, you know um kind of to amy's

point it's not that much different than someone just up and moving to a new city yeah and not knowing someone and a lot of people will struggle with that there'll be that six to 12 month period of like i don't did i make the right decision should i it's like i'm is it would just be easier to go hang out with my old friends who are doing the same thing we've always done and had fun? I mean, so you're not too much different than that. Do you know anyone who's used like Bumble BFF or whatever? I don't. I have that.

You do? Have you tried it? No. So I made a friend like two years ago from it and we're still friends. But I haven't really met anyone like this time around. So I could try that more. I think you should. I mean, you're definitely going to have to go through a period of, for lack of a better word, forcing it.

You know, you're really going to have to like dating. You just kind of have to kind of go out and kind of have those kind of non-traditional and awkward interactions that you'd be used to have in the first grade at the playground. That's so true. I remember this one time I had a yoga instructor who I thought was so cool, and I followed her on Instagram, and she looked like she had the most perfect life. And I was like, how do I ask her to hang out after class one day? And one day I was just like, oh, are you hungry?

Do you want to get lunch? And I literally agonized over asking that for weeks. Totally. And then once I hung out with her, I was like, oh, I really built her up. Like she's not that cool.

She's just a person. Yeah. Also like, and I have done that too. Like I have a lot of friends now in LA, but like my friendships are different than they were when I was younger. And I sometimes will be like, Hey, do you want to hang out? I don't have a lot of friends now in LA, but like my friendships are different than they were when I was younger. And I sometimes will be like, hey, do you want to hang out?

I don't have a lot of friends. Like it's half true and it's half joking, but it's also like- You'll straight up say it. Yeah, like who cares? Like my point is of saying that is no one's going to be like, oh, you don't have a lot of friends? What's wrong with you?

Right, usually they're like, it's so hard to meet people as adults. Yeah, it is hard to meet people. So most people to Amy's point, I think will empathize with you and be like, oh, sure. Yeah, like come have a drink. And then maybe you guys will hit it off as friends and maybe you won't. You know, it's kind of like dating in that regard. But I think just trying to go out there and just meeting people and saying yes to things that you're not used to saying yes to in terms of like just activities

uh again like you know you're gonna like if you don't like sports still might be willing to say yes to an invitation for a record recreational sports league it's just about meeting people and meeting different people and different interests and i think you'll come to find there's a lot of people in a similar position to you, not necessarily leaving a church, but not having a ton of friends. We're living in a society that's becoming lonelier and lonelier. Yeah. And it's not because they left their church. We all live in our phones. We isolate ourselves. We are, we're getting, we're getting less good at human connections and meeting people. And so, I think, but I think people are craving that.

So I don't think, I think when you put yourself out there, you'll find that you're not as... It's endearing, totally. Yeah, you're not as like unique in a bad way as you might worry that you are. Like I kept it a secret from everybody forever because I grew up similarly and I just didn't tell people because I thought I was so weird. And then I'm 33.

So I started telling people like three years ago, like even my boyfriend didn't really know. And then people are like, oh my gosh, that's so interesting. People are really interested. It's really interesting. They don't think I'm weird. They think it's like different. And so when you said you kept it, you're like, you just didn't tell people that you grew

up very religious. No, I grew up like kind of in a cult similar to her so it's like the whole thing they do is make the you are separate from the world so it's like you guys against the world you're different they're bad you're good so like and i had like years of missing pop culture so i didn't get people's jokes i didn't get people's references and you, it's like built to make you not feel. Yeah. So like a mini North Korea. Exactly.

Exactly. So like, you just kind of pretend you like laugh at people's jokes. You're like, ha ha ha. Like you pretend to fit in, but you feel very alone. It's definitely like they have a way of thinking and a way of like viewing

situations. And it wasn't like I didn't have any other friends, but it was like so much of my time was devoted that I just, it was like, those were my people and these were the things that we did. And like, yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting. Like Rochelle is, you know, grew up in a similar situation. It's like a re-engineering of your entire like social

structure oh yeah i've like left for 10 years and i'm still in therapy like still working on it and you're still discovering things like oh that's why i like do this one thing you know it's not it's it's pretty complicated yeah um so yeah i mean hannah i i think uh my biggest takeaway is don't beat yourself up. I think what you're doing is brave and you're going to just have to be patient with yourself. I mean, it's just going to be a challenge. And just, yeah, don't be afraid to be vulnerable with new people that you meet. I think people will, like as Rochelle said,

find you endearing. It's quite honestly, it's probably really interesting. If I met you on the street or we were on a date and you told me the story, I'd be like, really, that's, tell me more. Like, it's just very fascinating. Right, it's not bad. No one's gonna be like, you're a freak.

That's not a reaction. We grew up in a very Puritan society. We still have one. It's a very still religion. A lot of people can relate to you being Christian. Just the fact that you come from a more devout and very specific one is not like,

it's unique and might be different, but it's not like, it's not like you came from Mars, you know, like people, you know, get it. So yeah,

go out there, put yourself out there, go on dates, meet friends. Don't be afraid to tell people like, I'm looking to meet new friends. Like that. No one,

no one, no one's going to be like, ew, weird. Like you seem totally fine and normal. Like, it's pretty endearing when people are like, I don't have,

I don't have a ton of friends, you know? And if someone like, like, this is how we, now we know how Nick makes friends. I don't have any, so... I just go out to the street.

I stand out there. I walk up to people and be like, hey, I don't have a lot of friends. You want to go see this movie that's coming out? No, but seriously, I don't... I think if you are willing to put yourself out there and show your vulnerability, that's actually only going to attract more people, not necessarily push people away. You know? Mm-hmm. You know. Yeah know yeah you're not i actually made a friend i watched the bachelor at a bar and i made a friend watching the bachelor yeah you know it's that i've made my best friends it's funny tyler tyler cameron

everyone know fan favorite tyler cameron he started his run thing in new york when he was doing it uh and a lot of the, you know, it's mostly women, but would come out and do the run. He, you know, we, and I went once and you get to know them. And a lot of the people running were like interns. You know, they moved to New York City for the summer. So a lot of them didn't have friends. And a lot of people became friends simply off of like their fan, their, their, their obsession of the bachelor yeah and that's it like you just got to find like whether it's the bachelor or bachelor groups or other interests that you have maybe it's sports for some people maybe it's like some sort of other hobby yeah if

you have a mutual interest that's an easy way to talk to someone about anything you know you can become from very different lives but you have the similar interest and that's that's a budding of a friendship so that's a great, you know, start like that. You know, you're, it sounds like you're doing the right things to be honest. I think you're just struggling with, it's just so different than what you had and it's, it's, it's, it's includes a lot of moments of loneliness and,

and wishing you kind of had what you had before and, and knowing that's not right. So you just have to push through, really. Well, thank you. All right. Well, thanks for calling. This is very fascinating. It's always... You're ever in LA, you're welcome to one of my batch nights. That's a nice night. I love that. All right. It's a fun group. I win. Yeah. All right. Take care.

Bye. Rochelle, how many of these like groups are there you know in a sense that like what how do these like very it's christian right like um but there seems to be these like pockets of more devout or unique groups like where where does that come from i don't know i think it happened i don't know, when people immigrated from Europe and they just kind of isolated themselves. They had a leader that made it. I don't know.

It's just this idea of you versus them and everyone has to dress the same. But it does create a great community, but if you leave it, you're screwed because you're like, I don't know this world world wow but like with your community like your parents like they live in like arizona right but they were born in the midwest okay and everyone in my family has been in the same church in the midwest and it's it's the same one in arizona and everyone wears long skirts long hair buns veils your parents still my dad's a minister yeah so your mom's wearing long

skirts and buns yeah yeah why did i think you were from like a religious background i am you are yeah i grew up you know very catholic uh interestingly enough uh we grew up catholic but there was a church that we'd go to like once a month uh that was like a it was still very catholic but it was more of a it was where like some nuns left it was like a a faction of catholicism but it wasn't necessarily more intense like it didn't have it was more it was more specific i guess you could say but it wasn't and maybe some of the people who did go there were probably a little bit more devout Catholics than your typical. But not like I there was no like crazy. So when you went on The Bachelor, there wasn't there weren't people from your community who were like, this is.

I mean, there might have been. But I wasn't like I didn't care. And it wasn't a part of my life. And my parents have since, you know, my parents have become more and more progressive. I mean, I have a sister who came out, came gay but um i guess i i'm familiar with that group but it wasn't as i it wasn't as like it gets bad when they start controlling how you dress yeah if you can like my dad can't watch movies well he's never been in the movie theater like there was nothing i was told i shouldn't read any book besides the like when you start controlling what you all the

aspects i that's where it gets dicey it was never hard hardcore i mean i i mean i grew up there were some crazy things my grandma said to me right um i like i was told like michael jackson and prince were the devil they were no i no i think i was told once that they might have been right well some of that actually i was told that they worship the devil. Which, I mean, listen, minus the Michael Jackson stories, it wasn't about that. It was about them being different and dancing and then moving their bodies and sex.

And it was like a very ignorant point of view about like, and it was similar to like what you're talking about. Like, this is different. This is scary. They worship Satan. Very black and white. I remember it being like, I don't know. to like what you're talking about like this is different this is scary right they worship satan very black and white i remember it being like i don't know i mean i was probably like seven be like that seems a hardcore does he really i don't know this means it's kind of nice you never felt like you had to follow those beliefs uh i mean listen my parents were pretty

hardcore there was i mean i grew up with a lot of Catholic guilt for sure. I mean, yeah. But never, you know, I was 15 or 16. I probably, no, not probably. I definitely had this idea that I wanted to save myself for marriage. And then I turned 17. And your hormones changed your mind. And so, yeah, my parents, more than anything, always made me feel like they were going to love me unconditionally regardless.

And I was never afraid of sinning, I guess you could say, based off of the things I did. But it wasn't without fear and guilt from a big picture standpoint. Yeah, I bet. But not as hardcore as what you're describing and certainly Hannah. All right. How's it going? Good. How are you?

Good. What's your name? Shannon and I'm 27. Hi, Shannon, 27. How can we help? Yes. So my question is along the theme of establishing earlier on consistency with somebody in a relationship. consistency with somebody in a relationship. I feel like my overarching theme in relationships has always kind of been that I meet somebody and they seem really, really wonderful in the

beginning. And they are wonderful in the beginning. They do a lot that makes me feel really cared for and seen and important and prioritized and all the things you're supposed to feel in a relationship. And then after a couple months they'll usually ask me to be their girlfriend we'll establish an exclusivity and then it just kind of really declines from there um and there's no normal like ebb and flows in relationships and i know that i've been in long-term relationships before my longest one was just under about four years okay um but the last few years i've noticed where it's like a really sharp decline in consistency to the point where i sometimes question if they even still like me after like six months um and i'll ask them and

they kind of will like wear up and down that everything's great and i'm great and their relationship is great and they're really happy, but their actions don't really match up to what they were. So I guess my main question is, how can you establish earlier on that you're kind of dealing with somebody that treats their relationship with a certain level of consistency from beginning, middle, and then however long the duration is? Great's a great question. I know. Well, when you say consistency,

are you saying they are dropping off in terms of how much they want to hang out or the affection or affirmation they're giving you? What's changing? Honestly, a little bit of everything. Not so much the quality time, though. The quality time has always been pretty consistent in my relationship um but it doesn't like grow either so I guess it stays kind of the same on that side but then the stuff that does change is um the affirmations like you said like the letting me know where they're at and overall just kind of the emotional availability

that they give me um but yet then they'll tell me that they've never been so open with somebody and I'm sitting over here like really because you don't tell me where you're at at all it feels like your relationship of four years I mean granted it ended but it sounds like for a big chunk of that relationship you were getting all these things that you feel like you're not getting now is that accurate you feel like you're not getting now. Is that accurate? Yeah, exactly. Like all throughout that relation, granted, it was kind of like young love. We were in college. He was a few years older than me. I was 21 when we stopped dating. He was 25, but it was still four years. And never once did he ever make me feel like he

didn't feel the same way throughout the whole relationship. What were some of the things specifically he did that you really appreciated? Just like listening to me, hearing me out, and always letting me know how he felt about me and the relationship. Just kind of words of affirmation, reassurance, showing up, you know, things that were important to me. He made it feel like it was important to him, too. That sort of stuff. Nick, like as a dude, do you feel because I'm curious about this because I've been trying

like you or I don't know if you're on this tip, but like I've been trying to be more vocal about my needs because I sort of feel like what has being like like the cool chill girl, like it hasn't necessarily always get you very far. Like, we talk a lot about that. Really? Yeah, we have a t shirt says I'm not a cool chick. Okay, I need that shirt. So like, if a girl in a relationship were to be like, I need to know more about how you feel about me, like, would that make you feel like you were not reaching a certain like standard? Or would you feel like, like overwhelmed? It all depends, right? On how much you like someone. What I've noticed with a lot of our callers and people is like, if you know, we all do it, right? If we like someone a lot,

based off of an initial attraction, and certainly not because we really know them, we want them to like us back. And so our instincts are to, for some reason, to be more accommodating. It's like, if they tell us what they want, we're like, okay, well, let's do that. And then we start slowly forgetting about the things that we want and need. I think that women tend to do that more than men but men do it uh a little bit more and i think men are seeming to be better historically of saying what they think and feel um we've gotten away with it a little bit longer over time um but yeah i think that happens and when we really like i think we as we get older and mature we do get better and sometimes harder

of just like saying fuck it i'm just gonna say what i think now because like i'm i've tried to I think as we get older and mature, we do get better and sometimes harder. I'm just like saying, fuck it. I'm just going to say what I think now because like I've tried to be accommodating and that doesn't work out. And so it is just practicing, especially early on about, you know, what you need and being you know quote-unquote not the needy or annoying or crazy or all these kind of labels that you know women tend to get um labeled um i've i've hung out with this person recently and have had some really nice dates and like they're okay and you know i'm asking like it's you know, I'm asking, like, it's, you know, it's a very mature conversations. And, you know, there were, I asked her a question when she gave me shit because she realized that I was like vetting her out in terms of her craziness or lack thereof.

And I was like, and I go, so like on a scale of one to 10, like how much do you care about things? You know, it was this material thing. No, just, it was very vague where it was this like do you get mad at a lot of things or do you not get mad like what kind of question is that no she gave me a lot of shit and rightfully so but i guess you know we're all trying to figure out when we're dating early on how people react and yeah so are you saying she should establish like her expectations earlier yeah definitely i mean you seem like you have

expectations clearly and good for you for for having those expectations um i'm curious kind of to amy's point when you start dating how clear to these guys about your expectations are you uh not very i like amy's point about kind of being like the the cool girl i i my whole mo i guess is that i don't want to have to ask for things from people i don't want to do them right because it feels cheapened you know like if a guy um doesn't want to see me more or communicate with me more it it feels weird for me to ask that. You should naturally want to do that. I want you to want to do the dishes. Exactly.

But it's not doing the dishes. It's hanging out with her. No, I know. But yeah, if you like me, you would want to do it. Otherwise, if you're not, me asking feels kind of weird. Well, when it comes to things like quality time, yeah, that should come pretty naturally. I get that.

Maybe later in relationships like yeah we don't spend time together anymore like that's why i was asking you like because that isn't really i'll be real i think that's a hard thing to do like it has been for me to be like so how are you feeling about me or like yeah i need you to like let me know how you're feeling about me more like oh god that makes me want to cringe saying that really yeah i mean it's what well you could say it a different way like this this uh i've gone on dates with with women and who are seem to be better at that no offense than than you the average person than us and it's a and it's a you know but it's a balance too because like then when i get that question i'm just like okay i like the her sort of ness but like am i uh am i is like is this all you know is this too

much yeah i don't know like in fairness and right and totally and totally fair but like i don't jump to conclusions but what it's been like hey i haven't like you don't seem interested i haven't heard from you in three days so like i don't know and i'll be like no no no i i'm you're right i'm sorry you know i think it's hold men accountable you know like there's a difference between being needy and just be like i don't know you don't seem all that interested yeah just calling it like it is and i've said this before like sometimes the best thing to do with guys is there's a difference between me like why don't you like me and why don't you you know do why don't you do this and me like and calmly just being like I don't know

you don't seem that into me in a very calm way and you're just like I'm fine either way buddy but like but she's not you're playing it you're just playing it cool and also like I'm sure you are fine in the sense that you're just more

like yeah I like you know don't get me wrong I like you and i'd love to hang out and i'd prefer but you don't seem as interested and what i'm not willing to do is like pine for your attention and constantly ask but i do have these expectations and so like you know so there's a and then you won't be six months down the road or whatever like it's harder it's hard to confront those questions but it's a time saver what you don't want to do and it seems like what you're doing is you meet a nice fellow it seems like you have fun you've decided you've liked him and so you're like oh let's just hang out he seems to be kind of calling the shots and you're just out there not only not only is he calling his shots but you're like quote-unquote testing him by just

seeing well i'm just going to see what he does. Right. Meanwhile, you've not set any expectations or boundaries of what you want or need to make you feel happy. And so he's basically flying blind. And the truth is we, as men have different interests and expectations as you women, you know, and we don't like, and we, we get selfish, you know, as everyone does. And we just kind of put things on cruise control. Right. And so, you know, some of it is laziness on the part of men and some of it is like not knowing. And so if you don't set any expectations early on, and that's the thing too, is like you meet someone early on and if they are good at

just expressing what they think you know then you're like well now i know and now i can decide do i want that do i like that and i'll keep going and if i do she never can i i never can say to her why why are you bringing this up now like you're you know like yeah you expect if if you like if you like if i like you you expect me to like make you feel that way in a sense and here's how you can make me feel that way and you seem all very you seem very reasonable and i think it's weird in our society i think is and i do it too you get complacent and sometimes you do hate to be like you're right i i do need to say this more and i do need to do this more

and i do like you and i don't necessarily know why I haven't said it. Why do you think that happens? Like what is that complacency that sets in? Like even small things like how many girlfriends do you have who like who it starts out and we live in LA, right? Like so you live on the west side, someone lives on the east side. In the beginning, they're willing to drive to Silver Lake to see you. And then a month in, it's like, it's just expected you go to their place. Well, yeah. I mean, when you start, it's like anything else. When you first start. The girl is always the one making the sacrifice, I feel like.

Maybe so. But that's mostly because the guy in that situation has been the one to been like, you should come over here. And she goes okay and then it's kind of like well if you're willing to come i'm gonna let you come you know over you know what i'm saying like i listen so again voicing that like listen i've come over there like eight times this month you know especially specific in la i have dated women and i because i live uh on the west side and i've dated women who've lived on the east side and i'm always like hey do you want to come over and it's like cool and like and

then i've been like listen i know it's a long drive i'll like i'll pay for your uber and they're like cool and eventually like a couple times they you know this has been over the course of you know a few years it's like well no i don't want to come over why don't you come over and then i've been like okay but until they like tell me well no not even forced i'm just like i don't want to no i don't want to drive like i've and it's just like then and then i decide i want to come over and it's like sure but until you fucking ask i'm still gonna be letting you we don't want to do all the time without being asked. And that's, I guess, what's annoying. I think there's a difference between, and I get it. Like, you want someone who wants to hang out with you. That's not that.

It's like, I want to hang out with you. I just don't want to drive. And if you're willing to hang out with me. Yeah. And listen, I went. I wanted to hang out with her. You know? And so.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, you do have to pick your battles with that in terms of like wanting a guy to like we are simple and stupid generally even the smart ones um so yeah and like and yeah i don't know i don't know why why uh i guess i think men in a dating situation have just gotten better at being lazy and saying what they want. And, and, and women tend to be more accommodating in those situations for some reason. And,

and until that changes, we'll probably always take advantage. Moral of the story, be less accommodating and say what you want, girl. Just totally. I'm going to try. I've definitely realized it might be something I'm,

I'm partially, you know, that in no way makes you crazy or bitchy. I've definitely realized it might be something I'm partially contributing to because of the pattern at this point. That in no way makes you crazy or bitchy or difficult or, you know, no. And quite honestly, it'll just attract more men. You think? 100%. Like, there is a big difference between, like, acting crazy and saying what you want.

And guys love to do that feedback no they just like they like you know everyone likes a challenge in a sense right everyone loves expectation and so when you're like i don't need to come and see you and if you want to see me by all means come over guys will come come a calling you know they really will and not everyone and then that's when you get in the right one yeah like and then that's that's that moment where and i what i've gotten better in my age and maybe too much is when you're dating someone sometimes and i felt i felt this too it's like you do something that makes them frustrated or something and then you're like okay i i see what you're saying i'm gonna explain myself and it's not necessarily you just anything right or wrong you just did something that there's a miscommunication

and they they're like i don't know i don't i don't necessarily accept that or i don't understand you don't get it on the same page then you're just kind of like well then i guess there's a disconnect here and maybe i have we have the answer that we need when i was younger i would just be like i i'm not leaving the situation until i get you to like i will you know what i'm saying and like that's like a 2020 thing i think too and that's i think part of like the problem of or i've encountered with modern dating is just like the second there's like a small bump in the road it's like well there's a million people out there so like i really don't need to try hard there is that there is that balance the abundance of choice and that's and i think to your point amy like what we're saying to you i think will

help i don't know if it will always solve your problem because we are in dating in 2020 people have gotten lazier and aren't communicating but i do think that if you communicate better, you will find some guys willing to reciprocate. And the ones that don't are just... And to Amy's point, if you state this earlier, you will save yourself five or six months up front. You're waiting to find out who they are later in life. Start asking questions on a second or third date about some of your expectations.

See, that second or third date about some of your expectations i mean see that second or third date sure why not what kind of expectations could someone lay out that wouldn't be didn't seem like holy shit that's fast honestly i think like a third date is totally fair game to start like dabbling into like past relationships oh yes but but within that it's not just like have you had a boyfriend how long was it Like people tend to ask those questions and stop there. You know, you can get in like, so what was that relationship like? What did you fight about? Like, you know, like, yeah, it's just like you can really learn a lot about like how they, you know, what they liked. And so like, oh, why describe your girlfriend to me?

What was her personality like? Oh, I'm kind of like that like what does this mean you know you can really you start asking a lot of questions you're talking more about doing a little research not expectation not sending out your expectations well first you do the research and you figure it out and then you start asking questions like well and then you kind of have to be honest and i have i've gotten've gotten better with that. It's like, interesting. Well, let me tell you about me, about like how I respond to things or how I don't. And like,

would this be something that bothers you? You know, I'm pretty honest. It's like, I don't know. Is this a deal breaker? Yeah. Because when you're younger and like,

at least what I was, you hear something, you're just like, no, no, I'm not like that. I wouldn't do that. Like,

I'm actually pretty great. And I'm like really chill. And I've gotten better. I mean, like, I'll be honest. Like, I do the same shit. I do that like i'm actually pretty great and i'm like really chill and i've gotten better i mean like i'll be honest like i do the same i do that and i'm pretty annoying you know like i've definitely pissed off girlfriends by doing that you know what i'm saying like yeah you just kind of have more honest conversations and so yeah i think that just comes with practice yeah i think that's really just what it comes down to i guess is

what i need to do is have more honest conversations and not just let I guess what they're showing me in the beginning be the uh just the only thing that I pay attention to at the surface and don't really kind of probe we try to pretend everything is is perfect and great like I posted like it was kind of a weird analogy but dating's kind of black and white it's's like, you know, it's very, this is, you're the black, I'm the white, you know, this is who I am. This is I am. And what we present ourselves is all like, that's the fact. And then when we start dating, everything becomes more gray and we kind of like really learn about each other. And we kind of, everything's not so simple, you know, it's like, yeah, you are a nice guy overall,

but you're kind of fucking annoying, you know, and that's the reality who that person is. And that's everyone. You'd have to figure out which annoying you want to deal with, you know? Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

That's true. That's love. So, all right. Well, thank, thank you for calling. Um,

best of luck. Thank you. All all right take care bye guys bye i've been burned by like i somehow got it in my head i was like i'm gonna be the best girl for three months so that they'll be my boyfriend and do everything right and i was like they still don't want to do it like you know what i mean it still doesn't help i know why we do that but it's like that's like the worst thing you can do because a they have no idea who you are oh yeah for sure um and b you know i think men and women are the same that way even if you're not saying i will do anything for you to like me people feel that and when people are like i don't know she'll do anything about it

to me if i like her so i hate her it's a real thing so yeah you feeling this one i just uh i mean i was just talking with my roommate this morning about like i mean the age old when a guy likes you and gives you affection why is that repulsive yeah we're in the same way that way it's just like you know you've heard like oh girls like the asshole which is like there's some truth to that right and then right you only yeah i mean i think women almost equally as men want someone who is unavailable in some way it's not so much unavailable but our egos want to know that we are prized or like we want it yeah that like you you were deserving of me and and this wasn't easy in a sense um and that you're a desirable person we're taught that love is something worth fighting for like like peter you know so there's so many layers to that complexity of why we do it

but it's all ego driven um but But yeah, when we're just like, oh, you want to cuddle? Fuck you. They do that? No, they don't actually say that, but no. But there's, you know, you get what I'm saying.

Yeah. All right, how's it going? It's going good. What's your name? My name's Nikita. I'm 28 years old. What's up, Nikita28? So I guess kind of the backstory that I sent in

is that the backstory is that six years ago I was engaged, broke it off, started dating this guy pretty shortly after who was really awesome, really great. The timing just kind of wasn't right because I had just gotten out of a pretty serious relationship. So we kind of went our own ways. He ended up getting married and recently got divorced. So it's been six years. We reconnected, and we've been dating for about a month now, and he's still just really great. And I guess part of me was just hoping that, like,

because we got reconnected, that, like, oh, the timing's right now and all that good stuff. I just feel like i guess i kind of i don't know she's so great but i feel like i'm kind of smothered and i don't know if it's maybe just me not appreciating it or just needing to give it more time or if it's just something where he's doing stuff that normal people should enjoy and should want to have. We were just talking about this. Nikita, tell him the title

of your email. I don't remember what I put. I don't like nice guys. I don't like nice guys. What does he do that feels smothering? Yeah, thank you. Be specific on some things that he does and you're like, ugh.

It's so funny. It's stuff that all of my friends are like, no, you should like this. This should be a good thing. He's just really good about, he'll text me back within an hour if I ever text him. He seems always available. If I am having a rough day and he knows about it, he's like, oh, well, you something do you need like a treat you don't like this what do you need i girl i'm super independent no but i'm saying what has he done that like in that moment you're like for whatever reason irritated and you don't know why yeah i guess i'm not i'm not necessarily irritated but

i'm just like i I don't know. Maybe I just need to talk to him and be like, why are you available all the time? So it's an idea that bothers you. You want to... No, it sounds like he is available all the time. No, I'm saying, but that idea of that bothers her. There's nothing actually even specific. So you can't...

Is it safe to say that I don't want to put words in your mouth that you can't really pinpoint anything specifically that he does. Is it safe to say that I don't want to put words in your mouth that you can't really pinpoint anything specifically that he does? It's just overall, you kind of want him to like, you want to wonder if he likes you? No, I don't really have any questions about that. I think maybe I like having my own independence, even in relationships. And I like feeling like I have my time in my life. And it just seems like. Well, that's why. Okay why okay so he wants to monopolize that's great so like yeah there's a difference between sometimes people confuse like oh he's such a nice guy in reality

maybe he's nice but he could be still smothering and overbearing like you know so when you do things on your own does he like kind of pout and and whine and make you feel bad about that um no but if i tell him like because i rock climb a lot so if i tell him like oh i went to the gym with some of my buddies he'll be like oh i went to the gym too we should have gone together that would have been fun or okay when you say when you say buddies are you talking about girls or guy friends or both um i climb with both okay yeah is you talking about girls or guy friends? I climb with both. Okay. Is he friends with those specifically guy friends?

Not those people, but some of the other activities I do. He's friends with them, and he'll come hang out with my friends. Why isn't he friends with them at all? Why what? Why isn't he friends with those group of friends? Because he just hasn't ever come climbing with me. Because you never invited him? I have.

You have? And he doesn't go? Yeah. He said he was going to at some point, but then like our schedules are kind of crazy. I mean, Nick, you can fight me on this if you want. This is not going to work out. I have been this girl many times, and it's just a gut feeling. And if it's there from the beginning,

I don't, I don't think that I, my longest relationship with, with a guy who would have done anything for me, he was so nice. And I didn't like, like who I became because he was so available. Like I felt like, yeah, it's just this intangible thing. was so available like I felt like yeah it's just

this intangible thing and I know this sounds unfair but it's like have a backbone like like have more of your own life like why is it so attractive when a guy is a little bit more like withholding I don't know and I wish that wasn't the case but like for me personally that's just not what I'm attracted to and it sounds like that's how you are. I'm not going to fight you on this. Yeah. I mean, listen, you know, people like, you know, you said time and you dated him before didn't work out. And was it pretty much for the same reasons?

No, a lot of it was like me just having gotten out of an engagement and just still trying to, I didn't like the person I became while I was with the person I was engaged to. And so I just needed to take some time to be by myself to get back to a better version of me. Which is great. And maybe probably true, but also kind of Amy's point,

had you met someone at the time that like, you just kind of threw you through a loop, you probably would have been like, well, I'll figure myself and hang out with you. you just kind of threw you through a loop you probably would have been like well i'll figure myself and hang out with you yeah um there's probably something to the fact that like you just lack this spark with this person and that happens all the time i mean it's happened with me a lot where it's just like yeah she seems great she's beautiful she's nice she's smart

like everything on paper seems great i'm just like yeah i don't i just don't you know i don't and that could be a real thing and so now also it could be a real thing that you are, for whatever reason, attracted to toxic men. And I'm not saying that's true. But is it toxic? No, but like seriously, is it toxic to, I don't know. There's just something about someone who is more deferential to you that I think in a woman or a man. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying, because like you can be attracted to or a man that's what i'm saying i'm not saying

because like you can be attracted to like a guy who's kind of a little bit aloof and you're not totally sure and keeps you on your toes that's not toxic that's just someone who is less kind of like on all the time and you feel smothered as you say but like sometimes we can at least i have we've confused that with like it's like it's a trap for being attracted to toxic people is what i'm saying you know like because sometimes the toxic person person while also being toxic is also making us feel good about keeping us on our toes because of the toxicity so what i'm saying is like it's it's not mutually exclusive but like we we tend to find that it's easy to find the toxic person that way because we're desiring this kind of uh tension release and this tug of war

and so that's just what we have to be mindful of right i think i know personally for me that's literally been my biggest challenge is uh liking that, liking the, the, some keeps me on my toes. It feels like you do a T actually. Yeah. But when I look back, it's just like, I ended up dating. I ended up being in toxic relationships where it was just a lot of like,

and I'm not saying these were like bad people, but the relationship was, it ended up being a lot of fighting and criticism and name calling and a lot of like, you know, I was a lot of gaslighting where I was just like, why am I always defending myself? Like, you know. It's such a challenge to find the person who's not obsessed with you, but also doesn't treat you like shit.

Yeah. Where's the middle ground, man? That is a balance. It is hard but you know in this particular um relationship you know who knows i mean amy's probably right too but it's one of those things too that's why i ask those questions like if you don't want to be with them that's fine but um if you are going to be with them then you need to hang out with them and invite them to things and you know relationships don't tend to work if you are going to be with them, then you need to hang out with them and invite them to things. And, you know, relationships don't tend to work if you're separating boyfriends from groups of friends or girlfriends.

Like, that's a surefire way to create insecurity. I'm like, why haven't I met your friends? You know, like, you have a whole, you have this whole life that I'm not familiar with. And like, I don't want to be like, you don't want to come across as needy, but like, you're my girlfriend. So like, I don't know these people. You talk about a lot and you spend a decent amount of time with and like

at first that's normal after a while that's weird would you feel better if he is it'll is does he not have his own things going on like you just feel like he does and he'll like go do stuff but it's i don't know i'm always like i will be doing something and he'll be like oh yeah i'm gonna go like do something with my friends so i'm like okay that's awesome that's great yeah i mean listen i personally and this is no this is my opinion like if you're an adult committed relationship that which in assuming you want to get married is usually anytime you're an adult in a committed relationship the goal is could this be my person, right? Like, for the average person. You should spend most of your time together.

And free time is very important, and having your own hobbies is very important, and having your own things is very important. But the majority is still together, and then you take a break. What would you consider most of your time? I don't know what the ratio is. I don't have a ratio, but would assume that like you know minus like work you know i'm not talking about like work but like most of your free time i would say at least half should be like spent doing things together but maybe even like she goes i'm talking about it's

not a good sign girl i'm talking about your free time so if you're free and listen everyone's different like i'm not this is not i'm in no way right or wrong, but I would say the, I don't think that's unreasonable. You might be someone who's like, I just want 10% of my free time to be, I just want someone who like gives me birthday cards and has sex with me. And most of the time I want to do whatever I want. That might be you and that's fine,

but you're going to have a harder time finding the person to match that. Right. That's the whole point. If you guys aren't, if you're a 10%er and he's not, which is not like he is, then that's the. Totally. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

Right. So there's no right or wrong, but it also might just be someone, to Amy's point, maybe you're a 10%er for him. And you just need to find the person who you want to be 40, 45, 50% with. Okay. Yeah. 45 50 percent with um okay you know and you'll just have to but don't waste a lot of time um just because he's nice and and and and right stay with him just because he's yeah i think i've maybe just been kind of pushing through it just because it was it did seem very serendipitous that we were together six years ago it didn't work out and now i don't know the world's too small to fall trap to serendipity it's just like yeah jaded for that wow i mean

no i don't listen i i don't believe in fate i don't you know shit happens and sometimes that shit is good stuff you know we were around long enough you just kind of like we're creatures of habit we run yeah that was like when i saw you in the airport with that relationship yeah you We were around long enough. He just kind of like, we're creatures of habit. We run. Yeah. That was like when I saw you in the airport with that relationship. Yeah. You don't think there's any magic? Yeah.

Not, I don't think there's any magic that is making, that is trying to steer us in a certain direction. I think that magic comes from our choices and the things that we do. And there's moments that happen and it feels kismet and that's great but i don't think we should base our decisions off an idea of fate you know um we can get ourselves in trouble you know we can end up in relationships we don't really want to be on because like it's an alluring because because the day we because it's a fun story to tell people totally you know like sometimes you met him on a fucking dating app and that person is awesome for you. And you know what? The downside is you don't have a cute story.

But you're like, oh, it was so cute how we met. But like, I don't know. Most of the time it's pretty fucking boring. I agree with you. I have so many female friends who are resistant to dating apps just because they won't have a story. And I'm like like that's so dumb then like what do you want to sit in the grocery store all day hoping someone asked the brand of milk you're buying like okay good luck this vanilla guy i have nothing in common with like

asked me out in the most romantic way and i love telling that story so like the like but like when i hang out with them i want to punch myself in the face. But we do that for some reason because we love the idea of it. Well, because of The Bachelor. That's not because of The Bachelor. You're part of the problem, Nick. It kind of is. I don't watch The Bachelor and go, I want that. A lot of people do that.

Well, you obviously did at one point. You went on a couple times. Yeah, also point, but you went on a couple times. Yeah, also, what? You went on a couple times. Oh, my God. I just went on to be famous. No, I'm just kidding. I wouldn't doubt it.

No. How you liking it now, Nick? No, I don't for the life of me. I've never, like, even, I didn't really watch it before, but before I did. Hey, Glenn, didn't you love the role, like, going to fight for her even i didn't really watch it before but before didn't you love the room like going to fight for her that you didn't like that well that's different than like finding a helicopter

ride romantic but you're right no i i i listen i fall trapped to it too very much going back on caitlin season was the the whole story behind it and fighting for love certainly i was very much like like that uh and certainly i'd be probably become more cynical and jaded but yes me going back on the show for caitlin was all about like i was like i yes my ego was like yeah you go nick you go fight for love and this is awesome and like yeah i totally felt trapped to the story for sure 100 i did he caught him i'm not saying i haven't done that and i'm not but i don't like big picture when i take a step back and look at it i think that's an age thing yeah that's certainly not a reason to be in a relationship no um so yeah i wish you luck because that's not a

fun situation to be in even though it seems great I know I like honestly like all your friends you started out by saying are like well you should love that it's like if that fundamentally is causing like discord within you like and everyone thinks your life should feel so good it doesn't

feels really bad so yeah you're about to have that it's not you it's me breakup. It's fine. Just be kind to him. It's okay. You're better off pulling the cord now than leading him on. We're not saying this is what it is, but you do have to trust your gut.

And going forward, just be mindful of falling trap to toxic people because you like the challenge. And that's just something we all have to be mindful of when we're looking for that perfect balance of a challenge and also having our needs met. Alright, then.

Yeah. Alright, take care. Best of luck. Thank you. Bye. Bye. How's it going? Good. How are you? Good. Well, what's your name?

I'm Lynn. I'm 27. Hi, Lynn, 27. How can we help? I'm good. So I have a question that I thought you would be really good at answering or what I should do. It is a work-related question. And all of the advice I have gotten so far was from other women. I actually read your email. Amy will be very good for this, I think.

I'm glad Amy is here. Okay. So I work at a bank and where I'm from, it's mostly women-dominated bank, which is really cool. And I've been there about five years and I've never worked with a guy like this. So we went through a bunch of staff changing. So we went through a bunch of staff changing. And so my manager moved up. We got a new manager. And then we hired another girl.

And her and I did not get along at all. And I went on maternity leave and came back about eight weeks later. And her and I mended our fences. And, like, we just squashed it all so then uh the boss didn't I don't think he likes that so we have a guy manager now and to me it feels like he likes conflict between all of us and to the point of where I don't know if I want to go to HR about it or not. Like, when I came back from maternity leave, I was very hormonal and something had happened and I took it as my fault. And, like, I started crying. And, like, a few days later, I found out he was calling me names.

Like, I was pathetic for crying and being a few days later i found out he was calling me names like i was pathetic for crying and being a baby and i'm like well you can't say that to my face but you know he said it to someone else who then told me and he's very moody i would say um you never know what type of mood he's going to be in. He's very kind of hostile at points. What does he do that indicated that he likes to stoke conflict between you and your female coworker? So he'll like, one time he told me that she was going to HR about stuff about me. And then when he got her alone alone he would tell her the same thing that i was doing it to her and we were not and it was ever doing that you guys and you knew women got together and been like you kind of traded stories and realized he was making right

we traded we when we made up we traded stories and I told her that. And she's like, no, that's what he told me. And I said, no, I would never do that. And so I have talked to his boss,

which used to be my boss. She just moved up. And all she says about it was, well, he's not me. He doesn't act like I do. And, you know, that's all the further it got

the supervisor of your your former boss who's now his boss you went to her in confidence saying this is what's going on and she was just like well i don't do that she ended up exactly a weird because i think when he i think when he talks to her, he manipulates the situation. I think he's kind of a smooth talker. And I get heebie-jeebies working a bone with him. Like, what's he going to say? What is he going to do? And it's really uncomfortable to work with him.

What did you say to your former boss, his now boss specifically? Were you just like, did you say this? Like, I'm uncomfortable working with him? Yeah. And I told her, you know, one time he was literally yelling with another co-worker, cussing and like cussing at us and didn't stop when a customer walked in. And, you know, she's like, well, I'll just talk to him again. And then it's,

and I think she has a hard time with it because she's best friends with his wife and we live in a really small town. So everyone knows everyone. And I, I just, so, um, I'm a reporter at the LA times and I just finished reading this reading this book. I don't know if you heard about it. The woman who was like the whistleblower at Uber. And she called it's called whistleblower. And she encountered a lot of harassment in the workplace. And when she reported it to HR, it was completely mishandled, ultimately leading her to write this blog post about Uber that got the CEO ousted. But one thing I took away from that,

and this woman was very persistent in going to HR, which it sounds like you haven't done yet, she was really good at documenting every piece of behavior that she felt was inappropriate, like the dates, like the emails, like all of that. I mean, I don't know what Nick's going to say. I definitely think you should go to HR. And when you do, maybe be armed with that kind of documentation, even if you don't have emails, like just writing it down so that you have like a strong case because it sounds like you really do. I would tend to agree.

I just have heard a lot of, well, there's, I know there's a lot of people out there who have conflicting points of view. Like HR is not your friend. They're definitely not. Right. But you,

but if you have everything documented. I mean, I think the documentation is, is key. It's tougher for you because of it's a smaller organization and a tight community. And there's layers involved there where something as corporate America as Uber has its challenges

too because you're dealing with this monster company, but because there's so many eyes on Uber, because she documented it, I'm guessing it was at that point you couldn't ignore. They did ignore it and so she ultimately went public. I don't know. You're not going to do that maybe, but like... And I have been documenting things and it's Well, they did ignore it, and so she ultimately went public. I don't know. You're not going to do that, maybe.

And I have been documenting things. Okay, that's good. And he's been talked to before, but he'll be fine for a couple weeks and then just go back. Is this like a small regional bank, or is it a larger bank that you're in a... We're just only in one state. Okay. So... But how big is... Is it...

Like how big is the company? It's still like a decent sized company? Yeah, we have 17 branches. Okay. So we're pretty fair sized. Yeah, that's not a... I mean, what is your... Do you have like a...

What do you want the outcome to be? I just want to... Like, I love my job. And I want, I'm afraid, like, if I do go to HR, that there'd be, like, labeled that girl or, you know, the, you know, like, I'm the one who did this. That is like repercussions, like him, like, coming back on me. Do you feel like you have, that is like repercussions like him like coming back onto me do you feel like they're not that is literally illegal yeah he's he's legally not allowed that's retaliation so you are protected from any kind of retaliation they're not allowed to fire you for coming forward exactly and he's not allowed to do anything to you threaten you insult you at in any way sure but i'm guessing what she's afraid of is well you're not allowed to do that. Like how people will treat her and will they.

They're not allowed to treat her any different. And if they do, they could suffer legal. Sure. But sometimes. I think what you're saying is just like, know your rights going. Yeah. Like, and that was the point of this book and story because like people don't like, they don't know that that is.

Because there are those fears. Yeah. Right. What do you have? Do you feel like you have any allies like this other girl or other co-workers do they share your sentiment they do but then i feel like sometimes we're pitted against each other like we're on big brother or something sure like as as a joke you know sometimes i'll come and i'll be like previously on survivor i mean it sounds like like this guy is deliberate in his action.

Like, it sounds like he knows what he's doing to a certain degree in terms of creating this conflict and creating this animosity. The fact that he called you pathetic for crying is like, that's bad. I mean, it sounds like it sucks. Like, I just had a baby eight weeks ago yeah but I'm saying I think he sounds like he deliberately is creating this conflict to it's how to right it's like creating it's like creating cover for himself you know if everyone's fighting over here then I won't be the target of of being called out for my misbehavior yeah yeah um it's a tough challenge but i think

amy like you know document as much as you can and if you ever decide to go to hr make sure you're coming with all the proof and ammunition that you you can possibly ask for so then like then you kind of put them in a like what do you want me to do here i I love this company. I want to be here, but I don't deserve to feel this way. You know, it's not okay. Unfortunately for your, you know, it's what's really disappointing is your former boss or his now boss is

handling of the situation because now you've come to her, you've addressed it. She didn't handle it. And now she's kind of complicit in this. Right. She's part of the story right now and part of the story she's part of the story she's part of the problem you know the fact that she is best friends with her husband like makes her kind of an accomplice that way by her uh negligence that's a bummer but

that's on her uh but just document these things where it's just like all you want to do is come to work and do your job and and not feel harassed or belittled or um or threatened or feel awkward or you know like you just want to feel safe and like you just want to show up and do your fucking job and that that's that's what you have a right to do um yeah document it so i've i've sent i've talked to her and stuff too and i've talked to someone else who knew someone in HR who could kind of keep it confidential. But their suggestion to me was I needed to talk to her again, his new boss, my former boss. And then otherwise, HR will just set us all in a room and say, figure it out. And that's not allowed either.

No, that's not what's going to happen. If it does happen, then document that and then write a blog. Literally, because like, of course, you're not going to feel comfortable airing your full grievances in front of those people. That's not how it works. Right. They're supposed to pull you in privately. Also, like your bosses, that's like bullying.

Right. Yeah. Maybe do some research on your rights from an hr standpoint and just like the workplace and like amy said know your rights because now once you know your rights then you will be better suit prepared to like document what you need to document you know or if they do say like can't you guys just work it out like let's just meet like you can be like well no i'm entitled to whatever it is i don't know the exact but yeah i mean that do some research on just like hr rights and and what your rights are as an employee

to this company um and that knowledge is power especially going forward yeah right i just didn't want to be you know he's been there over a year i didn't want to be like well you need to give them time and well i've given them time i don't think uh people who harass other people shouldn't be given time to not harass i mean right yes you don't owe them that no um and chances are people who who do that aren't gonna like learn he's an adult man who man who called you pathetic for crying after having a baby. I don't think he's going to have some sort of moment of clarity as an adult to be like, yeah, that was wrong. Like, you know, he's unfortunately past the point of being a decent guy.

Short of something bad happening. You know, he's going to have to probably maybe lose his job and have like to realize. You know what I'm saying? Like a moment. You hope for that at least. Usually when you're at the point, people have to hit rock bottom to really see through the trees.

But that's not your responsibility. It's not your job. You have a right to work in a place where you feel comfortable right so but just do you do the research arm yourself with information and evidence um because you know it's a difficult process yeah and people will try to take advantage of you and even maybe go so far before you do it is consult with a lawyer, you know? There's nothing wrong with just like asking more questions and protecting yourself.

Yeah. All right. All right. Good luck. Good luck. Yeah. Thank you. All right.

Take care. Thank you. Yep. Bye. Bye. Yeah. I'm glad you're on that call, Amy. I felt like, you know, you work in corporate America. You're a reporter. I work in corporate America. Well, I mean, you're like a... But you're on that call amy i felt like you know you work in corporate america you're a reporter you work in corporate america i mean you're like it but you're

yeah no but i cover like injustices i used to work in corporate america but like it's nice to get a another person's perspective i was thinking about like because it's been how long has it been since you worked at salesforce four years oh Oh, that's it? Yeah. Do you feel like you would have felt comfortable going to HR for something? I mean, as a white, straight male, I feel like, I don't know what would, I don't. There's not, you could. I know, but I'm just saying I've just never been in a position where I've even thought about it. I've never. Yeah.

I mean, I, yeah. Must be nice. No, I recognize. He's recognizing recognize he's recognizing i recognize that it's uh i've been but you never thought you'd be like penalized that that would never go through your head for doing i never even got to the point where i wondered to be honest when i started doing these calls and this is not the first time that's something like it's you you realize that how challenging and how scary of a process that could be for someone who doesn't feel safe because corporate america especially a lot of companies it's a good old boys club you know and

and uh you know salesforce great company but when i worked there there was definitely that mentality they've done they've gone a long way uh and the ceo has as even publicly stated they're they're actively making changes and i know that they they have and they work to that. But it kind of started as a good boys club. Right. Yeah, I would hope that that caller would feel empowered, especially in this moment, to do it. Since so many women in particular are coming forward talking. What's interesting about her is she talks about that this isn't a good boys club.

It's like a company that seems to be... Female heavy. Female heavy. Yeah. But, yeah. this isn't a good boys club it's like a company that seems to be female heavy female heavy yeah but yeah but regardless hr is a tricky uh animal to navigate but that's yeah that's all like her story also speaks to the fact that like you think it would be easy to just report something immediately and it's not people are still scared of like those inner politics history has told us that it's not not there's a reason why people tell you hr is not your friend and don't go and report it because there's men there's probably more cases

of uh not believing the victim than than believing them right totally and that's a challenge amy this has been a lot of fun yeah thanks for coming um where can people find you they can find me on Twitter at Amy K in LA if you are a big bachelor fan which many of you are she's a fun Twitter follow yeah show and also doing great work over at the LA Times and an author an author an author of Bachelor Nation which Nick begrudgingly was in. Yeah. Anyways, thanks for listening. Have a great day.

Don't forget to send your questions at asknickatcastme.com, cast with a K, and we will see you tomorrow. Is it, is this going to be the, right before the finale? Is this the episode right before? Yeah.

I guess we'll find out what happens tonight and then tomorrow, make sure to listen to our opinions. I don't know who we'll oh I hope you sound good probably good Nick and I are the only two Pete stands still existing in America you know before we go

yeah nothing irritates me more than the Mike Mike wouldn't have done this or it should have been Tyler C the pictures the memes like I know why does that annoy you this is not true and not this is nothing against Tyler or Mike I've met Tyler great guy I haven't met Mike seems fine at the same time Mike is on the Blake tour

of like club appearances and DJ Vinny Vincenzo which is a nice guy too but I'm just saying Mike's just a guy who's loving the attention and there's a reason why he wasn't the bachelor and being the bachelor about them specifically though it's like it's a really hard job whoever it is gets shit I mean no one knows that more than you yes and especially you are like you know for all the teasing we've done with the women i'm sure they're all fine women but the collective group hasn't been super appealing and that wasn't going to change regardless of the bachelor and you know how mike or tyler would have handled these situations i i i doubt very much they would have handled it in a way that america would have

been like you know what that's how i would have done it it was it was always gonna be drama riddled and uh yeah it's like oh nothing irritates me more something to keep in mind as they've just announced the new bachelorette yes yeah uh well thanks so much again for coming uh it's been a lot of fun and uh come back anytime great thanks for listening guys