The Viall Files - E1048 Ask Nick I Ruined My Perfect Life

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Starting point is 00:02:52 to claim. Visit article.com. slash V-I-A-L and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That is article.com slash v I-I-A-L for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Good. I'm Abby and I'm 36 years old and I'm curious. How do I date like it's 20-25? What do you mean by that? Well, I have been recently single again and I'm used to dating as being more of a serial monogamist. So I usually date one person at a time. I usually fall pretty fast and I'm usually just right off to the races. but I'm trying to slow down a little bit, not chase the spark as much, and date multiple

Starting point is 00:03:42 people at once. And that's getting kind of messy. I actually started to like a couple different men at once, and it feels a little bit icky to me to be dating two people at once. So just hearing your quick synopsis of like your dating life, it was, you know, I'm a serial monogamous. I'm used to like being in committed relationships, I fall fast, you know? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:03 And now I'm trying something different. And the different you're trying is to date. multiple people at once. And again, I'm oversimplifying, but I'm just using your words. The only thing that you've done differently is to be open to meeting multiple people at once in the hopes that that would slow you down. But there was no intentionality around slowing down. So all that's happened is now you've fallen for multiple guys quickly.

Starting point is 00:04:34 Yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, I have been trying to be intentionally. a little bit slower. So definitely trying to slow down the pace with each of them. Keep like physical intimacy off the table for longer. Pay more attention to how I'm feeling and, you know, evaluate that against like my values and what I'm actually looking for now. So I've been trying to do that at the same time. It just so happens that I somehow have enjoyed the company of two people at once, which I really wasn't expecting. But I mean, you know, well, how does it feel like do you, is it fun? It's very fun. It's, it's, I'm enjoying.

Starting point is 00:05:08 enjoying it a lot and they're extremely different people. So I think that's why it's so challenging. We connect for very different reasons. What are you enjoying about them? Well, one of them, I think he's a little bit older than me. He's divorced. He's got kids. He's more of that stable presence. I tend to kind of go for more like adventurous, fun, off the beaten path kind of people. And so he's a little bit different in that way. And I think that's really grounding for me and forcing me to grow up a little bit. And he asks a lot of questions. He's very emotionally available. Yeah, he's just interesting and like tickles that side of my dating life. And then the other guy is a little bit more classically what I'm interested in. He's a little bit more, I don't want to say it like masculine, but he's a little bit more take charge, take the lead. I feel like we have better banter. We have more fun together. And then he is also also just like asks a lot of questions, makes me feel really good about myself. So they're similar in that way, but just like very different logistically.

Starting point is 00:06:10 What do you mean by logistically? I guess just in lifestyle. Okay. How do they compare it to your people you've dated in the past? That's a good question. The one who's older and a bit more stable is very, very different. He's a lot more stable, a lot more. Are you stable a lot? Are you attracted to instability? Yeah, I think that might be something. I'm challenged with. I think I really like independent people and I'm a, I'm someone who likes a lot of adventure in my life and likes to take paths that are like, I'm not a follow the traditional path kind of person necessarily. So that tends to lead to a lot of guys who are maybe less

Starting point is 00:06:53 stable and stable in the traditional sense, just like not following a career ladder, not necessarily intent on marriage and kids. But this guy is more like that. And I think that balance is nice, but maybe a little too far away from what I'm maybe after. What are you looking for in your life at this point? I'm looking really for a partner and companionship. I don't have specifics about wanting to get married or have kids. I'd like to have a family presence in my life, but that to me doesn't need to be like the classic nuclear family.

Starting point is 00:07:29 So, yeah, I'm really more looking for someone who wants to be a partner and build something together, but what that looks like is not necessarily like predetermined for me. And is that how you always been, or is that based off of like your, how life has worked out for you and is an adult? That's how I've always been. I've never been really certain about kids and I've been an entrepreneur and been kind of not necessarily interested in following standard protocol. Well, I mean, in terms of like answering your immediate question, you know, like, I mean,

Starting point is 00:08:05 specifically how to date in 2025 is honestly just requires a lot more, I think, discipline than maybe in the past, mostly because if you want to, you can have an abundance of options. Like, you know, you kind of pointed out, like, I've kind of been more monogamous. I've decided to open it up a little bit and wouldn't you know it, you know, now you're attracted to, like, you have two things going on, which is fun. And certainly might be like good practice. for you, you know, to kind of compare and contrast, especially if you are dating men who are, like, pretty different, you know, and it's a good way to, like, see the difference. But there needs to be

Starting point is 00:08:48 some kind of endgame, right? And I guess in 2025, there's just, like, if you want to, there's just an abundance of options. And again, with not necessarily good options, by good options, I mean, just mean, like, you know, it's easy to connect with people via social media, via the dating apps. Is it easy to meet people? Harder to, you know, is it easy to really make connections with people? But like the connecting part, you know, just, you know, who's single, who's available? It's a lot easier than it used to be, you know, 25 years ago, you know. Yeah, I guess it's also for me and just wondering for your perspective on like, how long is too long to be in a multiple dating situation or how do you navigate?

Starting point is 00:09:30 Like, do you tell you them? Are you sleeping with any of them? No, so it's only been like six or eight weeks or something and I haven't slept with either of them. Well, that's good. And, you know, I mean, this is like, I guess, you know, once you are physically intimate, then the, like, do how. Is that the line? I think there's a pretty big line, you know, because it's kind of like, I think most people would want to know, man or woman, you know. In 2025, I don't know if that's the line. You know what I'm saying? I think in 2025, you know, people might have different opinions with hookup culture being so prevalent. But I think if people are being pretty honest, I think it's hard to find people who wouldn't want to know if you were dating. Also, like, you should be able to tell, right? You should be able to tell how much of a connection you are feeling with either of these men.

Starting point is 00:10:19 And on some level, you should be able to tell how much a connection you might think they're building with you. Do you get the idea that either of them feel like this is really moving in a good direction for them? and they're excited about what they're building with you? Yeah, I think both of them. And I tried to be honest and up front early on and say, like, I'm trying to take things very slowly. I'm not trying to rush into anything just so that I can better, like, understand what I'm looking for.

Starting point is 00:10:49 We can really get to know each other before we kind of go down a more traditional path. But that is my ultimate goal to find a partner. Why do you feel like things haven't, worked out for you in that apartment. Or maybe they have and you just like, this is exactly how you wanted your life to be. No. I mean, I think I was with someone for 10 years through all my 20s and early 30s. And I think we just picked each other when we were like 21 and realized in our early 30s, oh, we were wrong. So that was just compatibility of like what we wanted out of life was not aligned. But since that, the couple of guys that I have had shorter term, a couple year-long relationships with,

Starting point is 00:11:36 I think it's been this challenge of finding somebody who is independent enough to have their own life, but who still wants and craves partnership. So I think I've really fallen for people who are charismatic and independent and have interesting things going on in their life. And then they are not really great at prioritizing partnership once it gets past that honey. in phase. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's, how old are these guys? In their 30s, or the current guys? No, I mean, the ones that didn't work out. I give her to it. Yeah, it was like early to mid-30s. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that is that, I think, I think you are probably a perfect example of many of us. I mean,

Starting point is 00:12:20 I would include myself in this, you know, before I met Natalie. It's this, today's dating culture, I think, you know, to, I guess to go back to your, how you framed your question. I think it's harder to navigate because I think we are allowed and we have the option or at least the perception of, I guess, being really selective and picky and the opportunity to want to have our cake and eat it too. That inherently makes our lives a little bit more complicated, you know, when we get a little more choosier. Also, it's hard to meet a goal without a specific plan. Yeah. And on some levels, you know, we, there's anything in life. We need to be, the more intentional we are, the better chances that we have at

Starting point is 00:12:58 accomplishing whatever we want to accomplish. You know, like things happen when we make things happen a lot more quickly than when we let things happen. Now when it comes to dating, you know, we're always like, don't force it. Let it play out,

Starting point is 00:13:10 be open. But the reality is, is that, you know, like, for example, when I met Natalie, right?

Starting point is 00:13:17 Like, we've told the story a bunch of different ways. But like, you know, when it got to the point where she was like, you know, like either we're going to do this or we're not, you know. And I, I finally was this like kind of really thinking about like, you know, my choices in the past and, and, you know, I had, had similar flings, you know, by similar, I mean, like, there were over the years, I was pretty

Starting point is 00:13:41 much single for a long time, you know. But here or there, I had, you know, a couple situations where I was dating women for a period of time. I liked them. I enjoyed their company. It was nice. I was like, you know, but like I just, I, there was something that stopped me from really moving forward, right? Probably is that like, like, again, I was comparing it to like all these relationships had in my 20s, my, you know, probably on some level my time on TV, the feeling of falling in love, I had a hard time replicating that, you know? And so I was just all very unsure. And then, when it came back to like Natalie, I really had to like consciously make, I had to, I had this thought process of, I had been single for eight years, you know, eight years. You know, it's just like,

Starting point is 00:14:36 you know, I'm like, I could have had like three girlfriends or, you know, four girl, I don't know. I could have had a few girlfriends that could have come and gone. And I could still be in this place today. And I'm not saying I wish I would have dated any of these women. But my point is, like I didn't try with any of them either, you know? And so here I was kind of like, am I just going to not try again, you know, with this person who I've been hanging out with a long time? I clearly really care about. I certainly have a lot of reservations, but am I just going to not try, you know? And I had to kind of be intentional. And I had to like make a, I had a chain, I had to make a different decision than I had in the past. Because in the past, in my 30s,

Starting point is 00:15:18 I just got really good at convincing myself why things wouldn't work. I think as we get older, especially if we're, we have all these relationships in our 20s. In our 20s, we're not sure, we're a little bit more explorative. We try things out, you know, then we fall in love. It's really based off of emotions, reactions. We just really, it's just all feelings, right? And then we get older. And if we're in our, if we're single in our 30s, then we become a little bit more pragmatic.

Starting point is 00:15:44 We're in our heads a little bit more, you know, we are better at reading situations, but then that kind of flips where we're constantly in our heads. We overthink a lot of things, you know. Yeah, this is resonating. Yeah. And so, yeah, and listen, I don't want to, I know, like, I think it was maybe last week's episode, and I talked about, I don't know, someone called about their job and I was like, you know, your profession doesn't make you happy.

Starting point is 00:16:06 And I knew it would. But, like, and obviously, I know my audience and coming from my perspective, I'm not trying to tell people, like, to get married or have a family or, like, do the whole, I mean, obviously that's been great for me. My whole point is, like, listen, no one's meant to be alone. I don't care what your family looks like, right? Like, just be, have it be friends. people you can invest in, right?

Starting point is 00:16:26 I just think sometimes that like, and I've been you, right? When I met Natalie, I was like, I still want to have kids. I'm not getting married. Right. You know? And I think it was this, you know, I was so, like, independent and single for so long. I was able to be like, I don't need the traditional shit. And I'm not saying people need it.

Starting point is 00:16:46 But I guess my point is when I talk about intentionality and people talk about wanting to have a partner and wanting to have a family. I think in 2025, society has allowed us to like break down some of those traditional norms, right? We don't need them. And that, I think there's truth. We don't need them. I think there's a lot of ways to do things.

Starting point is 00:17:05 And then you can get into the whole like argument about how like silly marriage laws are and how outdated and antiquated they can be and yada, yada, yada. But I guess what I'm saying is like there's no like clear alternative. Like what's the alternative? And so when people go into a dating life and kind of be like, well, I'm looking for a life but like whatever that it looks like I'm fine with. I think people just you know what I'm saying like it's hard to be intentional. That's fair. You know and I think I do see the value in marriage. I'm not anti-traditional milestones. And I'm not selling you on marriage. I know. Marriage has a lot of flaws.

Starting point is 00:17:40 I mean, I think I think ultimately I think I would want to get married in the end if I find the right person. I think I'm just not obviously I'm 36. I'm single. I'm not interested in getting married just to check that box. I want to make sure. For sure. person is right. And people can get married and divorce and be miserable and all those things. It's just, I just think it's, you got to be intentional. You got to put yourself out there. You know, back to like the example I gave with Natalie. I had to be like, I have to like, listen, this could blow up in my face. And I had to take a risk, right? And so I just think as we get older, we become more, like when we're 20s, it's like yolo, whatever. And then you get your heartbroken a

Starting point is 00:18:22 couple times. You're like, I don't want to deal with this shit again. I'll just date kind of more casual, you know, and I'm going to be slower. I just think sometimes we don't appreciate the guard we put up. Yeah. No, I think that's fair. I think I am trying to find the balance of moving slow enough that I don't overlook red flags while still choosing someone that I have the right chemistry with. And yeah, I think dating these two guys at the same time has been really challenging for me because I would prefer to just pick one and invest in that one relationship and see where it goes. How old are these men? Late 30s, early 40s.

Starting point is 00:19:02 What questions are you asking them about their past relationships? Oh, that's a good question. About their past relationships. Yeah. I think I dealt into it more with the slightly older divorced guy because I wanted to understand. and the divorce and the reasons, what he'd learned from that relationship, what he's looking for differently this time, what he thinks he needs out of a partner in the future and what he wants since he already has done marriage and kids. The other guy I've been a little bit more loose with

Starting point is 00:19:36 because he presents as more of like a free spirit energy. So to me, I haven't probed as deeply to him on what he's looking for or like what he's learned from his past relationships as much. Okay. What's his relationship with his ex-wife? Civil now. They share kids, so they have to. How many kids? Two. Have you learned anything from that? Yes, I've learned a lot. I think he seems to have done a lot of post-divorce, soul-searching, to understand why the relationship devolved and why, like, he's learned a lot from his kids.

Starting point is 00:20:12 He's actually set around being more emotionally present for them because he wasn't necessarily. fairly that way for his wife. And so, yeah, I think he's, for me, he has said all of the right things and done all of the right things. And I'm just maybe doing what you said around, like, putting up my own guard around. Okay, well, he's already had the marriage. He has kids. He's probably less interested in having more kids, if that was something I wanted. He's a lot more buttoned down than I am. So is that the kind of. You haven't asked about his interest in kids? We've talked about it a little bit. He said he's like he's open, but he didn't expect that he would want to have more kids. I think it's typical, right?

Starting point is 00:20:53 I mean, I think in those cases, it really comes down to when you meet someone that you like fall in love with, that conversation kind of takes care of itself, usually. Right. You know, it's interesting, like if we wanted to like nitpick and pick holes, right? Like on the one side, the married guy who seems to be more open and connected emotionally is showing some green flags, checking those boxes, as you say, say them. right things, but he also, it seems like, has acknowledged this is because he's done the wrong things.

Starting point is 00:21:24 Yeah. And the question is, has he really changed or is he learned at least what he's done wrong and talk about what he should do wrong? But in practice, will he do that? You know? Yeah. That resonates because I think, like, part of my concern or hold back with him has been, like, how genuine is this versus just are you?

Starting point is 00:21:47 saying all the right things he might not know i mean you're right like a lot of us are just like yeah i don't know even like with when it comes to like how we speak to each other like especially in relationships you know you ever been like someone's like hey don't talk to me that way and you're like what i'm just talking and you're in person's like no you're kind of raising your voice at me and you're like no i'm not i'm just i'm just talking i'm like i'm a little i mean i'm a you know but then when someone's doing it to you know it's like we don't see it when we're doing it you know and we see it when other people are doing it. So it could be something like that.

Starting point is 00:22:20 Then the other guy, right? He's the, he's in his late 30s up into this point. His resume hasn't demonstrated like any kind of ability to commit or sustain anything long term. So what's going to be different about this relationship? Is a fair question you'd want to ask. Yeah. No, no. I think I need to delve more into that with him because I think at the beginning, I had kind

Starting point is 00:22:45 have written him off. I was like he's this free spirit, creative, like never been married, never been in a super, well, he's been in a like seven year relationship, but never been in a super. So he's been in a long term relationship, but never done the more committed thing. So I kind of wrote it off as this is going to be a little bit of a fun for now thing. But he started to show up more seriously. And I've noticed in the way that he like approaches me that it is very, it seems to be very intentional. It seems to be very intent on actually getting to know me and build a potential relationship. So now I'm starting to question, okay, did I maybe write them off too quickly as this, like, free-spirited, not going to be a partner person. If you had to like, if you don't have to,

Starting point is 00:23:30 but if someone's like you got to pick today, times up, who would, like, who would, like, who would you pick? Oh, God. I don't know. I, uh, I think I, I'm more drawn to the free spirited guy and I'm maybe stopping myself because I assume like I'm worried that I'm maybe doing the same thing again and pursuing the person who's less stable. Well, like, so tell me more about your dating. Like, again, I don't, I don't want to imply that you're not in a happy place right now. But I just like, what, why do you feel like when it comes to at least your relationships, you're still looking?

Starting point is 00:24:08 Yeah, I think when I started dating again in my like early 30s. I hadn't dated since I was like 20. And so I was in, I was not being intentional about it. I was still probably dating, like you said, dating as if I was in my 20s and being like, oh,

Starting point is 00:24:23 where's the spark? Where's the chemistry? And I followed that a couple of times. So I had two, I've had two relationships since my decade long one ended. And, yeah, both of those. I just was like,

Starting point is 00:24:36 oh, the chemistry is immediately there. I immediately am very, very interested in them. and I think I probably overlooked some flags early on by just like jumping straight into it. What would, like, if you had to nitpick, like, what would your exes say about you? Oh. You know, where it's like, yeah, you're great, but like you do this thing. And honestly, you should work on it. Probably a few things.

Starting point is 00:25:03 Like, I think they would say that I, that's a good question. I think they would say that I'm probably, I go from being very independent to being a little bit too needy. I'm like, I'm an anxiously attached person. So I think I'm drawn to like the independence of the beginning. And I like like having our own careers. I like having our own space. But then it hits a certain point. And I start to be like, well, why aren't we like doing the partnership thing more?

Starting point is 00:25:33 Why am I not becoming a priority? And I think that can probably be challenging for them. That's an interesting answer. Yeah. You know, again, I'm not a therapist, and I'm, you know, I'm only guessing here. But, like, it's, you know, I do think the reason why I'm somewhat good at doing this, right? Because I don't think we as humans, you know, you mentioned attachment styles, right? Everyone loves talking about attachment disorders.

Starting point is 00:25:59 And it's not like there's 30 of them or 100 of them. There's like, there's like six we all fall into, right? And I just think as humans, we have various patterns and, you know, we do a, you know, we're kind of predictable. I don't think it's a coincidence that, like, you are drawn to this kind of very free-spirited, independent, you know, in your story, there's an element of chase and validation and feeling special, right? There's an element of, like, the wild guy, I can tame him, you know, and then once he's tamed, then you have the expectations you tell yourself you don't necessarily want or need.

Starting point is 00:26:40 But once you're in the relationship, you default, you know, into the relationship mentality. So, you know, what happens, right? Like, maybe you're, you're not sitting up for an expectations as the relationship. The people you are dating get a little caught off guard. They see it as needy, you know? Right. Yeah. They see it as, oh, she changed. Right. You know? Yeah. You might feel it is like, oh, he's pulling back, you know, because you're thinking, I meant change. I progressed, you know, like we met, you know, and now I just like you more. And now I have more expectations of you, right? Like, and that scenario, no one's really doing anything wrong.

Starting point is 00:27:20 But I think it is interesting, you know. Yeah. I don't think that my exes necessarily did anything wrong either. I think it's just like we've figured out a mismatch in style. But then, so the reverse is happening now with the stable. emotionally present guy where he's very much pursuing me and very much showing me the relationship potential and it's making me like, I don't know if I just don't trust it or? Yeah, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:27:47 I don't think it's trust. I mean, I don't, maybe, I mean, again, because he, based off your history, it seems more likely that it's a you problem than a him problem. Yes. Yeah, probably. I get the sense in a lot of ways, and I'm oversimplifying, but your dating path has a lot of similarities to how mine was. And if you have any similarities, then you would be someone who kind of got good at convincing

Starting point is 00:28:21 themselves of what you don't want or need. And there's some truth in what you're saying because, you know, you seem like generally happy. I don't know much about you. Your house looks nice. You know, like, it sounds like you're doing fine in life, right? You're like, so despite, you know, not finding your person and your life partner, you've carved out a nice little life for yourself. And you've been, also, I'm guessing, been able to like be happy as a single woman, right? You are, you, you, you probably can be a good third wheel or fifth wheel. You can, you know, like you're, you're totally fine. You're totally fine. Right. And so I think that's allowed you to, yeah, tell yourself of things you do and don't need.

Starting point is 00:29:07 And I'm just wondering if at the end of the day, you just got more good at convincing yourself than the opposite. I don't know if that really answers your question than either of these guys. Yeah, which one do I pick? I don't know. I mean, listen, I don't think you have to pick anyone now. You're not sleeping with them. So, like, you might have some time. But I would, I think with the free spirit guy, you need to maybe test out.

Starting point is 00:29:28 you coming across is a little more interested in traditional things. Whether it's true or not, right? Just, I, you know, I think there is some truth into it. But I think, again, in 2025, I think all of us, men and women on different sides, are trying to, like, water down. It's like, well, I don't need that. You know, I'm not traditional. I'm progressive.

Starting point is 00:29:50 It's like, you can, you know, and you can be progressive, but like, you can, you still want traditional things if you want traditional things. And I think if there's any part of you that wants some stability and commitment, I would lay it out out and see how he responds. I would explore more questions about his past and see if he's remotely interested in having that conversation. And he's got to give you more than like, well, sure, if I, you know, if it all, if I meet the right person, then anything's possible. Like, that's not an answer. Yeah. You want to see if this guy really wants to.

Starting point is 00:30:27 invest in someone and wants to settle down at all. So would you just probe him around what does he actually want out of life and partnership and everything? Or would you just like put forward what I want and see how he reacts to it? Or both. Maybe both. I mean, you know, I don't think you're totally 100% sure what you want. Or maybe you are and you're willing to kind of be honest with yourself.

Starting point is 00:30:50 I don't know. No, yeah. I'm not sure what I want, but I do know that I want like commitment, whether that's like I'm not looking to go yeah i do know that i want commitment long term yeah i would if i were you i would give it some thought about what you want and what commitment looks like and i would be i i think you you would do well by being able to answer that question for yourself is that's going to require a level of vulnerability and a level of like no okay because it's scary to say i want this because once you want it then there's like what if i don't get it if i want it then i might if i don't

Starting point is 00:31:26 get in a minute, I can be happy. It's easier mentally psychology to be like, I don't need anything. I'm flexible. Yeah. I'm, I'm adaptable. I'm good. And to say, you know what, deep down, this is the thing I want, immediately is a vulnerable moment. So, and I think, I think you, in the long run, you might want to put some thought in and what a long-term commitment looks like for you. And deep down, whether you need it or not, what do you want? Like, this is an about what you need. I want to hear, I want you to learn about telling yourself what you want. And how do you can, how do you go about chasing that and going to get it? Yeah. Fair. I think it's just changed so much over the years that I struggle to believe. Yeah. Yeah, I'm

Starting point is 00:32:15 struggled to articulate obviously what it is that I want because it has changed. I don't know if it's changed as much. I think you've changed, you know, you've become way more multi-dimensional all. And I, and again, I don't know you, but again, I changed a lot from like being a 22 year old, right? Yeah. But once I found Natalie that the things I wanted for myself when I was 22, big picture wise, were the same. And ultimately, they were the things that when I thought would make me really happy did make me happy. Now, how I, how much I've changed, I feel like I'm a better father and a better husband and a better person just because I've matured and I feel like I've become more empathetic and yada yada yada but like yeah i mean i'm i hope this was helpful i don't know if it is but

Starting point is 00:33:06 no it is it is you're the common variable right so um and i think that's important for all of us to remember right and i i'm sure you're a catch um you obviously don't have a problem like meeting men but yeah just try to be more intentional about what you want and and be and have the guts to tell the people you're dating what you want. And know that they might not accept that or want that, but you're going to save yourself a lot of time by being specific and expecting specificity from the people you're dating,

Starting point is 00:33:40 especially the people who come across as a little bit more free-spirited. And with the married guy, yeah, I think you also can ask more probing questions and just be like, how long has he been divorced for? Five-ish years. Five years. All right. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:56 Has he had any serious relationships between his divorce and you? Yes. He had one. That was a couple years. What happened there? Yeah, I haven't gotten enough detail on that. They were long distance. Okay, well, I don't know if you listen to a recent episode, don't let him bling long distance.

Starting point is 00:34:12 Yeah. No. Yeah. I definitely. But that would be interesting, right? Because, like, well, I thought he healed. And again, I'm not saying, like, people break all the time. Just because they break up doesn't mean he's like a bad guy.

Starting point is 00:34:23 but I just want to know he invested into this person for two years. That's a long time. So he at one point was very serious about this person. And this was a person that he was like this was the person that, you know, he got divorced. Sounds like he did some work on himself, right? And then picked this woman and was like, this is the person that like after all the work I've done and I got divorced, I'm going to pick her. And then he didn't pick her anymore. And I would just be curious as to why.

Starting point is 00:34:59 You know, maybe she was a nightmare. And I'm sure distance had something to do with it. But, like, you might discover something in those questions. Yeah, that is a very good piece of advice. All right. Well, anything else I'm going to help you out with? No, I think I have some figuring out to do. But thank you.

Starting point is 00:35:16 Keep me posted. Love to know where you're going to be here. Yeah, for sure. We'll do. Thank you. But yeah, I think the biggest takeaway, is I think you need to be a little bit more intentional. And don't let dating in 2025 give you excuses to be non-committal year. And I think slowing down isn't dating multiple men. It's just

Starting point is 00:35:38 asking more questions and thinking about their answers and being able to learn. You know, it's not just quality time and hanging out and doing things. It's, and having banter. Yeah. You know, it's learning about each other. Yep. Very good points. All right. All right. Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye-bye. Helix sleep. Do yourself a favor of this holiday season and get yourself the gift of the greatest sleep you'll ever have with a helix mattress.

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Starting point is 00:40:09 Amber. I'm 35. How can I help? Did I just fuck up my perfect life? Oh, my God. I, well, what did you do? married, separated, but getting divorced and have three children with this person, been married for nine years, and living in what seemed to be like the perfect life. We lived in the perfect neighborhood, had the biggest house. I have a fantastic job. Our kids are great. And met somebody who, the moment that I met them felt as if I'd like been with them my whole life before. And it sort of reminded me or kind of made me realize what was broken sort of inside of my marriage. And I'd been for a long time trying to get my marriage to be different and trying to get my husband to, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:01 be more motivated or do things that were better for our marriage. And nothing would happen for years. And after we had our third kid, it was really, um, it went downhill. And so I think I just kind of became emotionally ambivalent in terms of an indifferent to what he was doing and didn't care anymore. And so when I met this person who was our contractor, we had just bought a new house and we were remodeling it. We bought it in January. So I met him once in January. And it was an immediate like, there's something here. I don't know what that is, but it was a 30-minute conversation.

Starting point is 00:41:38 And then I didn't see him again until June. And then in June, the same thing happened all over again. And it was a mutual thing. And so... How did you find out it was mutual? It progressed, you know, when he was in our house and he was doing all the construction. Like, we just couldn't not be around each other. It was like you could feel the chemistry in the air.

Starting point is 00:42:05 Well, how does your husband feel about all this? I mean, he's devastated. He is. I don't know. Like, you, I mean, he maybe, but, but what's his point of view? You know, this is such a, obviously, a fascinating. I don't mean fascinating. Like, I'm like, enjoying your challenges.

Starting point is 00:42:22 But, you know, listen, you've, I'm assuming you listen to this show. I don't think anyone is surprised to hear me. Like, obviously, I'm in my, like, I've only been married for less than two years. We have a young daughter. Live in the dream, right? And obviously, I am projecting that. Obviously, I'm assuming a lot onto my audience. and talking, but all the things I'm enjoying for the people, especially literally the last caller,

Starting point is 00:42:45 right, was someone who's, she's in her mid-30s, she's, has everything she's got going for her, but she's kind of like, I don't need a guy and blah, blah, blah, and I'm just kind of like, listen, I'm not saying, I don't know what you need, but just be open to, like, fall in for, like, you know, finding, whatever. Yeah. And it takes, too, to make a marriage successful, right? Like, you have to wake up every day and choose each other, right? What happens when someone stops choosing themselves

Starting point is 00:43:10 or choosing you? You know, I've talked to enough of people on this show to really feel for, you know, it's mostly what I'm talking to, to the people who really feel stuck, you know, who really feel like, what the fuck am I supposed to do here? You know, it's like I want. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:43:26 I am curious about a couple of things on your end. It's like, all right, so one, what made you call in and with the question, am I blowing up my life? What makes you worry that you're blowing up life. Two, for the part of your husband that's devastated, like, what's the part of him that recognizes how it got to this point? So first, after we had our third kid, he did not want three kids. I wanted more kids, so we sort of compromised at three. And he completely checked out. So that was

Starting point is 00:44:00 three years ago. Our kids are seven, five, and three. Like he checked out on being a dad? Yeah. And I mean, I can go into it. After our first. kid, he left for a month to go on a surf trip two weeks after he was born. That's crazy. I can't. Yeah. So did it again with our third. Our second was during COVID.

Starting point is 00:44:20 So I guess it wasn't an option to go anywhere. So wait. He just, oh, my God. That's a crazy thing I've heard. Yeah. And it just became my responsibility, right? And in terms of handling not just only. the kids, but our entire life. And so I sort of like say my job, you know, I run a technology

Starting point is 00:44:47 company in AI and we do really, really cool things. I talk to some really, really cool people. So you're the, you're the boss, both in life and in your marriage? Yes, 100, 100%. And I think And he's just like a surfer dude? Yes. and a golfer. What's he due? Nothing. Interesting. So is he more devastated?

Starting point is 00:45:15 Well, I'm assuming if he gets divorced, he will probably benefit financially from this. I come from families of lawyers, and so it's pretty airtight. But I think that he... Oh, so he... So what do you think he's more sad about? Your exact thoughts.

Starting point is 00:45:34 That's sort of where... That's what happened and sort of where we led, got to where we were... we are is like there's a lifestyle that I was able to provide that he was able to live and he got very comfortable in it and I think that I do think that he loves me I know that um but I think that he's yeah I mean we bought the biggest house in the neighborhood and he was excited to have that and I sort of blew all that up and I think that now everyone around us right is losing it and I sort of like Who's everyone around us and what do you mean by losing it?

Starting point is 00:46:11 I mean, everybody, family, friends, community. How are your kids, first of all? I guess let's start there. Perfect. Fantastic. They are the best ever. They, probably my oldest is the most aware, I guess. He's seven and so he's sort of the most aware, but they're great.

Starting point is 00:46:31 Well, that's all that really matters. As far as, okay, so friends and family, I mean, I'm sorry, I just, I can't get past the fact that you, he had a, two of your children. Yeah. He went on a surfing trip. He left you. He left you. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:48 I mean, I would talk to him in the middle. He was in Australia. So I would talk to him while I was breastfeeding in the middle of the night. And that was when I would talk to him. What's his story that like there was a specific wave coming and he just like was his bad time? It was once in a lifetime. He got to surf the coast of Australia and he, you know. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:47:08 That's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. And I mean... How was he as a dad when he got back? He's a great dad. He's a really good dad. So, like, he's very involved.

Starting point is 00:47:19 He's, like, a camp counselor. He's a great dad. Like, he does all the fun things, but he doesn't do, doesn't know when they have doctor's appointments. He doesn't know, he doesn't even know they need doctors appointments when they turn a certain age.

Starting point is 00:47:35 So, like, I handle all of that. Emotionally, like, when did you feel like, I don't know. It must have felt like some huge betrayal when he left you. Or were you kind of like, I don't know, maybe you knew who this guy was when you married him. No. I'd say by the third, I was kind of like, go. It's a little easy. It's more, it's easier when you're not there.

Starting point is 00:47:56 And, you know, he, I think, fell into a depression that, I think it takes a lot to be with somebody like me who I am very strong. and like I do run things, not only just like work-wise, but household-wise. And like, I think it takes a particular type of person to be able to handle that. And I think he started to feel particularly after our third that he just fell into a depression. And so I would try to get pull him out of it and be like, let's go see somebody. Let's get you out of this. And he's had a very hard life. He lost his brother and his dad and lots of trauma that he just has never dealt with.

Starting point is 00:48:34 and refuse to deal with it. And so I think it all just kind of comes together. And I think I got to a point where it was just like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do anymore. Yeah, it sucks. I don't know. I mean, I can see why a guy, like, you mean, like we've, you know,

Starting point is 00:48:52 we've had plenty of people call in women specifically successful women. And it's like, you know, it's a stereotype of the trope for a reason because, like, I think, well, people find successful people intimidating, right? I think there's an extra layer of it when it's a very successful woman and a guy who hasn't found his footing yet, right? And so here you are. Your husband is like, one, I think it helps that he's a free spirit for him. And maybe he just, like, he's less career motivated maybe than other people or yourself. But whatever part of him

Starting point is 00:49:21 that is in like biology or just, you know, as a guy that needs to feel that purpose, he doesn't have it, right? And he hasn't dealt with his shit. And so it's like the most exciting thing he's, he has in his life is leaving his wife who just had a baby to go surf, you know, and like he's trying to find some spiritual, I don't know, fucking moment or whatever. What's a real bummer for him, what makes me sad for him is that even if he didn't find his thing, right, whatever that thing is, that thing that, like, from a career standpoint that made him, like, really proud of himself and really gave him some purpose, that he didn't embrace fatherhood to the point of that's enough.

Starting point is 00:50:05 Like, hey, I didn't know what life was going to bring me. But when I take a step back, I got a beautiful wife. She's kind of a fucking boss. We're rich. I mean, it's kind of her money, but whatever. I got a big house. I got three beautiful kids. I get to go surfing now and then.

Starting point is 00:50:22 But I'm just going to be the fucking, and again, I know you said he's a good dad, but like, I don't know. He sounds like he's a fine dad. He doesn't sound like he's a bad dad. But, like, is he a great dad? I don't know. Like, he left. And he doesn't seem to be all that present, you know.

Starting point is 00:50:37 And I think, and maybe fine. Maybe your personality is a little overbearing. I don't know. Maybe. Whatever. But like, I just, I feel like part of your personality might be overbearing because, like, you know, it's kind of a balance, right? When you're a strong personality, yeah, I think sometimes strong personalities can be

Starting point is 00:50:55 attracted to people who are a little not strong, whatever, it works out. And then you have a tendency of like always taking control of situation. and then he has a tendency of just letting you take control. But I don't know. I think that's probably a little bit of excuse on his part to a certain extent. And it just makes me sad that he could have chosen fatherhood and embraced that and got an incredible amount of purpose from that and just said, you know, all I need to do right now is this focus on my wife and my family and I'm going to get an incredible amount of

Starting point is 00:51:26 purpose from this and like happiness and let's build. And he didn't want to do that. And that makes me sad. I mean, I'm sure I am overbearing. I have to be in a lot of ways to make things run normally. But I guess in terms of like my question, there's so much noise. Right. So we had a very tight group of friends. They're all up in arms. My family is up in arms. I think so when I met this person, it's a feeling that I didn't have when I met my husband, which is also alarming. And I, you know, I don't, I don't know if that. And I met my husband when I was very young when I was 21. And it was a quick little meeting. And then again, when we met again, it was the same thing. And it was really like this feeling like, I know this person in and out.

Starting point is 00:52:15 Like this person is like for some reason connected to me in some way. What is your relationship with this person at this point? Like how evolved is this relationship gone? It's evolved. I mean, we like can't help it. It's very evolved. I would say like I'm separated. So, like, I'm not married.

Starting point is 00:52:33 I've been set. Yeah, I'm not trying. But, like, are you dating? No, I know. When this all came out, we're like together. Yeah. Together. Listen, I don't want to discount what seemed like euphoric feelings.

Starting point is 00:52:44 I just, I think feelings and chemistry, and that's kind of what you're describing are just, you know, unpredictable, temporary, hard to trust. Again, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a therapist. That being said, you were in this marriage for a long time, clearly feeling, unfulfilled and not getting your needs met for a long period of time at very pivotal times in your life, right? So it's not shocking that you met a guy who is a business owner, as a contractor, he's a doer. That alone, when you're like, I knew him forever, like, I don't know,

Starting point is 00:53:21 like you just, you recognize a lot of yourself and him. At a time where you were just so tired of feeling more and more disconnected from your husband. So I just like, it's just, just be careful how serendipitous. Listen, if you want to be with this guy, be with this guy. And whatever drama that your friend group, the fallout, deal with it, whatever. Just don't, don't dilute yourself into like you're making choices because fate has taken over your life. You know, like make choices, own your choices.

Starting point is 00:53:57 you know, you're, listen, you're making a very difficult choice. And I, I really emphasize with you because, like, and again, like, when you tell me this, when you first call this story, my, my, you know, new married, new dad energy is like, you gotta make that marriage work, you know, you gotta, you gotta do what you can, right? But, like, I don't know what it's like to be married for nine years. And again, I'm just blown away that your husband went on a surfing trip after you had kids. I just, I can't compute that. Like, that is. I just think that says so much about, you know, him being a partner and him being a father. And I'm sorry.

Starting point is 00:54:34 Like, I just, I can't wrap my brain around that. And as far as the friend group drama, like, that should be the least of your concerns. You know, it'll work itself out. You're going to lose some friends out of this, probably. Try to be open to listening to your friends. What, I mean, my question is, like, it took me five minutes to go from, you got to make this work to be like, oh, shit. Like, man, leave his ass. Who of your friends, like, understand your plight?

Starting point is 00:55:01 The girlfriends do. It's the husband's group that he's, and he has gone around talking very poorly about me in our community to the point where I was like, live in the house, I don't care. I will continue to pay for it. I'm going to go find somewhere safe for our kids to, like, have a safe space. He's rallied, like, the dad, like the husbands. Like, you would think that I did whatever I did. to all of them as well.

Starting point is 00:55:29 And it's just very, it's just like, what, a dirty whore or something in their mind? Basically, like, it's so stupid. And they don't talk to me. And these are people that were, like, very close to me. And they won't speak. I mean, it's almost laughful. Like, that part of it is, like, so stupid. But there are days, of course, where I'm just like, ah, like, do I just go back and, like,

Starting point is 00:55:51 it all falls back together? And it's, like, I just deal with it and figure it out. And then I think about it. And I'm like, I don't think that I could ever just go back and do that. But, you know, I go back. I don't know. Do you, what part of you still loves your husband? I mean, I love my husband.

Starting point is 00:56:10 I will love him forever. But am I in love with my husband? Like, madly. But is there a world where he could have swept? Like, I don't. What could he have done differently? I don't know. I mean, I always said to him, too, like, the moment I become indifferent about you and, like,

Starting point is 00:56:25 what you're doing, I'm out. Like, I'm out. Like, I don't know that I come back from that. And I gave him so many options and opportunities to pull himself out that I just, I don't know that there's a world where he wants to. Has he been trying now? He wants to. Look, he's like, I am going to make you fall back in love with me. And I don't really know, like, how much weight do I give, like, you know, I was alone in my marriage for so long for, and like, do I just say, like, we're just supposed to be parents and, like, maybe that's, like, our relationship. And I can love you. It doesn't mean you're my person, you know what I mean? It doesn't mean, like, I have to be with you. But some days, that feels like it would just be easier. It would just shut everyone up. And on other days,

Starting point is 00:57:16 it would be exercising myself. That's tough. What do you believe? What do you believe? Like, I guess what do you believe in, in, in? terms of what he's saying because you're right like against it's like you know my wife and i were talking about this yesterday of the show for completely different reasons but but yeah like she was referencing like you know i think once you're it's like once you're you're you reach a breaking point it's like forgetting about like oh once i'm indifferent like yeah it's almost you've draw a line but i think it's more comes down to you've tried and he's only reacting to you leaving now yeah and that's my biggest problem is And he'll always say there's not one person that wouldn't think that we were in love a year ago.

Starting point is 00:57:59 And I was like, well, yeah, I made it seem that way. Like, I held it all together. Like, I made it this picture perfect. But does he think that? I guess my quite, you know, you know, it's just like, again, the thing that makes me most secure about my relationship today is that I feel like both of us when we're like, hey, I'm a little disappointed, frustrated, upset, irritated, whatever it is. the other person's like, oh, well, you know, and we might get defensive. There might be some bickering. But at the end of the day, we care about how we're making the other person feel.

Starting point is 00:58:32 So if we're disappointing our partner, we both feel like the other person's like, oh, shoot, I don't want to disappoint you. Let me try not to do that. Or I should do more of that. Or like, I want to like, oh, I'm leaving. I'm going to send my wife flower, you know, like, clearly he wasn't doing that. He stopped giving a shit about, he stopped. responding to your frustrations, right? He, I'm assuming you felt an indifference from him

Starting point is 00:58:59 about your not need not being met. And to your point, when you feel like that person like doesn't care that you're sad, mad, irritated, it's like hard to keep going. Yeah. I mean, we were like that in the beginning. And then, you know, we had a lot of kids in a short period of time and it just became to no fault of really his it was both of us like I'm not going to say that I was like a perfect person in this marriage at all but became transactional you know it was logistics it was you know we have these three kids I already was like kind of checked out with how he was feeling and I know he was checked out with how I was feeling so it was just sort of like and he would be and he was very angry all the time and our kids would notice and so I would like try to

Starting point is 00:59:45 angry about what he would wake up up angry and that would be the whole idea like what did the kids do like they you just woke up i don't know you came downstairs to stop i have no idea and that was just our life and i just had a breaking point where i was like you know i'm not going to live like this for 40 years like i just am not going to and there were so many times that i was like you need to fix this and so many times that we would even like we started a business where he had plenty of money to go do this and just like nothing ever happened he didn't go do it and I was always like I don't care if you bring money and like go open a crystal shop I don't care what you do just go have a purpose

Starting point is 01:00:30 like go leave and that's not just hanging with your friends and or whatever um do I believe him I do I mean I think his world is like flipped upside down I think he had this very like idea of what the net what his life was going to be like. And I think I ripped that away. But I don't believe that if I were to go back tomorrow, it would be different. I think it would probably fall back into the same pattern, mainly because of me, not even necessarily because of him. Just like, I don't know how I get over some of those things. Well, I mean, you do. You just get over it, right? Like, this, you know, construction guy aside, despite the hurt, the frustration, yeah, I'm sure he caused some pain and some scars, but, by like dismissing you ultimately, right?

Starting point is 01:01:19 You know, and you're right, it's a big lift. It's a big ask, and it's unlikely because people don't just change for, they only need to change for themselves. And right now he's changing for his marriage and you. And like, that wasn't enough in the marriage. And it's only, right. But let's this crystal ball it and fantasize about a world where, you know, he went and got some therapy.

Starting point is 01:01:37 He was like, you know what? I need to be a better dad. And I'm going to start there. And I'm going to need to be a better husband. And I'm going to start there. And I'm going to find purpose in that. And like, you know, as far as the other stuff, I'm just going to appreciate the fact that I'm married to a boss-ass woman and my needs are met. I'm going to be a dad.

Starting point is 01:01:53 I'm going to take them to practice. I'm going to give a shit. I'm going to be involved. I'm going to alleviate some of my wife's stresses because she is making the money. And I'm going to, like, we're going to be a team. And I'm going to focus on being a good teammate. And then, you know, he romances you and things like that. Like, if that were to happen, yeah, you'll let go of the past.

Starting point is 01:02:11 You know, a marriage is like you said 40 years. like this, you know, people have, I don't want to tell you what to do. You're going to figure it out for yourself. And again, I've heard enough of stories for people who feel stuck and I feel for them. And you have the benefit of being an independent person who, like, you know you're going to be okay. Like, you know how to take care of yourself. And a lot of people don't have that freedom and that confidence. And so you, you're going to be okay. It's just that like, listen, yeah, yeah, this is your family. It's a family you made. A lifetime with someone is really hard. And you're going to have to be able to forgive. This construction guy, if let's say you guys, you get divorced,

Starting point is 01:02:51 you start a life with him, he's going to hurt you. I don't know how. Something's going to happen. Five years from now, I don't know what his flaw is. I don't know what his things are, but he's got things. And the big question is, is at some point, every marriage I feel like that I've heard, the ones that, you know, it's just like the old people who are like, you know, there's always a period where they talk about a dark point in their marriage, you know, where there was a lot hurt. So there's that. And if you want a marriage that lasts a lifetime or most of your life, you will have to figure out how to get through it with someone. And I think that's something to consider. But you know your husband the best, you know, your situation is much different than,

Starting point is 01:03:35 you know, especially in my relationship with my 20s. But there is a part of me, you know, I always think our strengths and our flaws are often the same. I feel confident, whether it's my relation, I see things through. I don't like being a quitter. And not being a quitter has caused me on the negative side of staying in things a little too long, holding on to people a little too long, whether it's relationships, whether it's friends, it could be employees. But I don't have any regrets because I definitely saw it through.

Starting point is 01:04:05 I definitely tried. I felt like, you know what, I did my part. I tried. And I don't, I didn't leave a situation being like, like, should I have tried a little bit harder? What if I would have done X, Y, or Z? I saw it through. And if you can feel that way, then put it this way.

Starting point is 01:04:21 With three kids and a marriage of nine years, if I'm in your shoes, and this is just me, and this is my opinion, and I could be wrong. Like, I would have rather. Too many times. So that, like, when it's done, it's like, no, I have no regrets. I fuck it. Like, no. Like, almost to the point where, like, are you kidding me?

Starting point is 01:04:38 I fucking trouble. Rather than wondering, you know, if I, you know, if I didn't. Fair. And then you just have to ask yourself, how much is this new guy clouding your judgment, right? And when I mean by that is like, I would like to see you make this decision without being attracted to anyone else, right? I'd like to see you make this decision solely based off of your husband's lack of meeting your needs and expectations as a husband and a father and not being a compare it to someone who is showing, It is, you know, my very first girlfriend. I was pretty religious back then, you know, and so, and she wasn't, and we fought a lot about church.

Starting point is 01:05:22 Seems silly at this stage in my life, but we did. And, like, I just wanted someone who was just, like, willing to go with me, right? And, like, she, we fought, right? And then we broke up, and then, like, I met another girl. It was very much over, you know, it's like, and I was just, like, obsessed with her because she was. She was willing to go to church. And like that, it's just like, at that time, it was such a like a frustrating point in our relationship that for her to be willing to go was this like, I mean, it was this like, it was the best thing ever.

Starting point is 01:05:53 And he is, he is no doubt giving you some of the, this is the best thing ever feelings because he is doing things that you bagged your husband to do and he wouldn't. And this guy, I'm guessing, you don't have to add. It's just like second. It's just who it's like he's like he's, he wants. too. It's easy for it. You know, like, and so you're, it's just like, it is the contrast to like your husband is so fucking steep that you do want to be careful there. Because that other girl that ended up being worse, you know, like she wasn't great, you know? Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's a really valid point. It's exactly what I'm struggling with now. I mean, I think what's so difficult to is I tried for so long silently, like with myself and with my husband sort of behind closed doors in the sense of like, we have two very different versions of history.

Starting point is 01:06:50 Like his version is never, didn't take me seriously, right? When I would bring these things up. And I think it's part of being like dismissive of sort of what I'm saying and how serious I am. And I think he maybe at the end of the day, this is just a wake up call and he does. I mean, he is going to therapy. Have you guys gone to couples therapy? my gosh, I'm therapy, like, out. I go to therapy.

Starting point is 01:07:14 No, but have you guys gone, you guys have gone in couples therapy. Oh, yeah, we're in couples therapy. Currently. Yeah, mainly, like, to help co-parent, but yeah, we're in couple's therapy. Yeah, but, like, I'm assuming you guys talked about this stuff. Oh, yeah, we've talked about all of it. Has it gone anywhere? No.

Starting point is 01:07:34 You don't feel more heard? No. No common ground has been, like, discovered between the two of you? I mean, maybe a little in the sense that he will, he won't take accountability for why we got where we got. And that's my biggest frustration is like, yes, I made the mistake. I can own that. I will lay in my bed and I made that bed. In the sense that you stepped out and you explored this guy.

Starting point is 01:08:02 Yes, like that is totally on me. And you can call me whatever you want. I don't care. It didn't happen in a vacuum. Like it didn't happen. I'm with you. I don't know if you're watching Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, but you should listen to that episode with Jesse that we just had.

Starting point is 01:08:18 Infidelity is such a like a hot button topic in relationships period. It happens all the time. There are situations where people just do it, you know, and then, you know, and it's a them problem because they're, you know, they got some issue, I don't know, whatever. And there are people who are victims of infidelity who didn't do anything wrong. They're just like, I don't know, their partner just like, I don't know, just to figure some shit out, whatever.

Starting point is 01:08:41 People can feel stuck in a relationship. People can feel helpless in a relationship. People can be begging their partner to see them and hear them. I'm not a therapist, but I wish I was your guys as a couple therapists. So I could be like, dude, you left her when she had a baby. Like what, this rat my brain around that? Like, what person, like, how can anyone feel safe in a relationship when in their most vulnerable moment you chose to leave because of weather patterns.

Starting point is 01:09:10 Yeah. You know, I just, I don't. And not once, but twice. That's like what. Like, why should she bet on you? I want to know. I want to ask him why she should bet on you. You don't want to be our couple of therapists because he rage texts the three of us

Starting point is 01:09:24 constantly. He'll only communicate with me sometimes be a text. It sounds like you've kind of done what you've tried to do. I mean, like, if you're already in therapy, it's, you know, I don't know. I keep asking for like, I'm and then he will demand something from me, like an answer about something the next day or a few days later. So I don't ever feel like, to your point, I get to sort of sit with a decision that I make and like feel regardless of this other person, regardless of my husband, but like with myself.

Starting point is 01:10:00 And I'm in therapy by myself. and I just have never given that opportunity. Like, he's always sort of, like, demanding these things from me. And I keep saying, like, you need to just give me a minute. Like, I know I made a mistake. What's he, like, what's he demanding? Are we going to move forward with mediation? Are we going to move forward with a divorce?

Starting point is 01:10:19 Like, he demands an answer, like, immediately about these big, heavy things. And I'm just kind of, like, give me, like, a day to, you know, I need longer than that. And then. What was his relationship with his dad? Not great. I mean, his dad passed from ALS, and his dad's lovely and a fantastic person, but they didn't have. He left home when he was 18 and never went back. Why?

Starting point is 01:10:48 I mean, I left when I was 18 and never went back in a way. He grew up and, like, parents did the best they could, but his brother was a very, very kind of intense drug addict. would like steal and just he was the younger brother and so he was always sort of in the shadow of like this really dark stuff and he left and you would have a heyday with just all the things that have happened with this when we had our daughter his brother passed like a few days before um we had her and she was a scheduled C-section and he got the phone call and then just went back to sleep like fell back asleep and it was three in the morning and I was like well what am I supposed to do like he never let me meet his brother like just a very dark sort of like tumultuous thing his mother is fantastic like she's amazing but he's had a lot he's had a lot of bad things and I would push him I was like you need to go to therapy you need to figure this stuff out like I can't hold this for you. Yeah, I don't know. It's, I mean, back to like, this Jordan and Jesse episode.

Starting point is 01:12:09 I ask, it's because, like, I'm just curious who are his role models, you know, and things like that. And you can have a bad role model and be a good person because it's like you chose to be like, I don't want to be like that, right? Sure. But like the Jesse and Jordan from Secret Lives, you know, here's a guy, you know, it's like, yeah, I'm sure she had her part in their relationship problems and I think I think she did amasculate him at times but like how he apparently has spoken to her is so nasty and then you know she eventually like kissed a guy or whatever and it's just like he he just can't wrap his brain around his actions and it blows my mind I don't I am sometimes floored and I'm not trying to like pat myself on the back about like

Starting point is 01:12:56 I'm a great you know but like it's just like I just blown like I just I'm shocked that you know a lot of guys don't hold themselves to a certain standard. And I understand that men have feelings too and men, and we need our needs met as well too. But like, again, there's just so much he could have done. You know, there's just so many things that were in his control. He was set up, you know, like, the fact that he had this very successful wife,

Starting point is 01:13:24 I mean, he had, like, he had more options than most guys in this position because he could have just, all he had to do was try things out. I don't care. I didn't care at all. It's interesting too because my girlfriends, when we got married, so like my college girlfriends had a lot to say about us getting married. And then when this sort of happened, they all were like, it's about time. Like they watched from the outside sort of this, me hold everything together.

Starting point is 01:13:54 And that reaction was actually incredibly eye-opening that like, you know, because you can't want to see it when you're in it, even though I was feeling it. And so I feel stuck between. between like I have committed so much time. I have a beautiful family. My kids are the greatest gift on this planet. Like I'm obsessed with them and I would do anything for them and trying to keep everything together for them. Do I do that? I don't want my daughter to like see that this is like at least what our marriage was like that's not an example that I want like that's the I don't I'm not a position answering that question and as a new dad I just before I was a dad it was easy for me to say

Starting point is 01:14:37 listen like if it's a shitty marriage like you know when my brother had two kids you know and we you know was this high school sweetheart I was like yeah listen you guys are better off and I think they are better off and they both find on happiness and I think you can get divorced and co-parent and and it can be better off for the kids as now that I'm a dad it is as harder for me to be like go do that you know, because I just couldn't imagine sharing custody for my kid. I just like, I don't want to ever to be put in that position. I don't want to do that. It's horrible. I don't, I just like, this is hard for me to like, flippantly be like, yeah, I mean, whatever, you know, like, it's a, it's a tough decision. But it really feels like you, you, I said this before, different ways,

Starting point is 01:15:17 but like, I think when it comes to men, I bring up that Jordan episode, your husband, whatever, men are really simple, right? They are all golden retrievers, right? And you maybe have already done this, and it sounds like you kind of articulated that you did. But like, I think it's just really important that men are believed in, and they need cheerleaders. And you can call it what you want,

Starting point is 01:15:39 you can call them soft or whatever, but men need that, right? And they need someone to believe in them for them to do things. Now, I think a lot of women can be supportive and believe in them and their husbands are just deadbeats. I don't know if I can.

Starting point is 01:15:52 Like, I don't know, they go to surfing in Australia. But just make sure that for whatever part, like, if you want to get a guy to do something, believing in him and making him feel like he is the king of his castle, so to speak, is that might make some women listening cringe because it sounds patriarchal or whatever. I can't even say the word. But that is how all men respond. It's just you got to believe in them. They need to feel like they are capable of.

Starting point is 01:16:22 of being that king of their castle. And like your problem is probably is that you are the king, queen of the castle. It sounds like you've been more than willing to let your husband be the king sometimes, but he hasn't taken you up on that. But all I'm saying... I would hand it over in a second, yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:40 Yeah. Just remember when you're frustrated to still want to believe in, you know, this next guy too, you know. But I don't know. It sounds like you've really tried everything. with your husband and I feel for you. If he can't, listen, if your husband's anything like Jordan,

Starting point is 01:16:57 get divorced. Because I interviewed. I kind of wish I was harder on him, but it's like he taught, you know, it's like, he's like, I'm in therapy. And it's like, okay. You know, but like it was like, you know, to him that was the answer to all his problems. He's seen more focused on Jesse's mistakes. And I'm like, I don't know.

Starting point is 01:17:14 Like maybe. Yeah, I kind of, I don't blame her. You know, like it's, you know. And, uh, I've, He kind of treated like her mistake absolved all of his, and I don't think they remotely do. It's very similar. He just doesn't see it. He just doesn't, I don't know.

Starting point is 01:17:32 I just, again, I don't know what it's like to be in their relationship behind closed doors, but I'm so tired right now with River, whatever reason, didn't want to sleep last night. She wanted a party, you know? And we both at different times, we're up there for two and a half hours. It's like, you know, we share in the responsibility of parenting, of helping around. around the house of doing things. At times, I'm sure we both feel underappreciated and overworked, but we check in with each other. I like that perspective.

Starting point is 01:18:01 I feel like that's a perspective men in relationship to me. Yeah, and I'm talking about just being there every day, being present, you know, helping out little things, just being there. And that just goes so fucking far, you know, making your partner feel like you're proud of them, believing in them. Like, you know, it's just, it's hard to find. I don't know if this was a remotely helpful, but... No, it is. I mean, perspective, your perspective as you're sort of where we were years ago.

Starting point is 01:18:33 And it's nice to hear that your mindset. Then I think that I feel like I have tried in so many ways. And to your point about Jordan, like, until there's any accountability on like, why this happened, I just don't see how anything he says is believable. The problem is that, like, you finding this new guy, yeah, he's, he's scapegoated. Probably. Now he's, and now your husband's the victim. 100%.

Starting point is 01:19:04 And that's what every conversation is about is, like, that. And I keep articulating and trying to, again, I didn't wake up one day and say, I'm going to blow everything up. Like, that didn't happen. It happened if I was happy and fulfilled in our marriage, like, this would never have happened. So, like, how did we get there and can that be repaired? Or maybe it just can't be repaired. And maybe that's just the answer.

Starting point is 01:19:27 And we need to, like, move on because our kids are better, not in this limbo. So we have to figure out one way or another. Yeah. Well, what is your timeline? I don't have a timeline. Like, I want to, I don't want to rush into anything. So, like, I don't want to rush to get divorced. I don't want to rush to get, like, I just want to, like, sit.

Starting point is 01:19:47 And that's what I've been asking for is, like, sitting with everything that's happening. and not rushing. He wants to rush for an answer one way or another, and I just can't get him that. And so that's sort of the source of a lot of our conflict right now is like... Have you said to him point blank? You probably have. I recognize that what I've done recently

Starting point is 01:20:11 and me stepping out of our marriage was wrong, and I'm sure very painful. And you have every right to be angry and mad, and you can call me name. but it didn't happen in a vacuum and you are scapegoating your actions that led to this moment. And I have begged you and give him examples and like, I'm not justifying my decision, but it's why I made my decision. And I was just unhappy and miserable and alone.

Starting point is 01:20:39 And I want someone who is by my side, who doesn't go up and goes, you know, who works on their shit, doesn't wake up angry, take it out on me and the kids. Like everyone's allowed to have bad days, but like do something about it and you never were willing to do anything about it. And you just, you pushed me to this limit. And if you can't recognize that, if you can't own that and you can't focus on that, I don't need to, I know I made a bad decision. I don't need to be reminded of it. I don't need to be lectured. I'm owning that decision. I made a mistake. I'm not perfect. It is what it is. And I'm sorry you're hurt. But like if you can't own you can't just scapegoat me

Starting point is 01:21:20 and because you feel like a victim and sure you're a victim of my choices but like we are a victim of our choices in this marriage and if you don't want to like own the problem of our marriage is you never wanted to own the responsibility. I needed a partner and so often you weren't willing to be one and even in this moment you are not being a partner in the problems of our marriage.

Starting point is 01:21:44 You're just like expecting me to solve the problems which is like to decide to work on it, decide to be together. Have you ever said that? Yeah, all the time. I mean, and then his answer is that I'm mentally ill and I need help because nobody does what, you know. So yeah, I mean, the more we talk this out. I feel like, I don't know. I just, I don't want to tell you what to do, but he went, he went surfing.

Starting point is 01:22:12 I just like that says so much. And if he's literally gaslighting you into like, calm. you crazy and mentally ill, and he's refusing to see the obvious. Jordan's answer, just, you know, spoiler, it was like, my family talked, we're harsh with each other. And I'm, I, you know, I was just like, that's, okay, sure, whatever. Yeah. That's why you.

Starting point is 01:22:34 I think there's a, we come from very different backgrounds and in therapy, like, I'm, and I'm not trying to, like, pat my own back or anything. I'm incredibly high functioning and, like, I just get things done. And like, I think a big part of the disconnect is like his version of doing things is just so low. Like, it's very just like he, he thinks that he did. Like, I think there, I think he genuinely thinks that time, like, he did act as a partner. And in my head, I'm like, just because you, you know, held the baby for an hour, that's not like a partner. Like, you know, so those things.

Starting point is 01:23:16 And I've used the analogy with him too. Like, I'm the pilot of a plane and I'm responsible for the mechanics of the plane, the flight crew, the passengers on the plane. I'm responsible for the entire plane in the air, making sure that it stays in the air and it doesn't crash. And, like, you were supposed to be my co-pilot and you're surfing or, like, you're somewhere. He makes sure that the garbage gets emptied out. Right. Exactly. Yeah. He does, like, something. And that's what he does. And then he thinks that that is enough. And what I'm trying to determine is like, will that ever, maybe we're just two,

Starting point is 01:23:54 we're on two different frequencies as people. I think you're going to figure it out. It sounds like you're, it's a difficult decision. But it sounds to me like the only thing that's really holding you back is the idea of the family in the nucleus and the kids. And you have, you're trying, you are in therapy, you guys are in couples therapy. I think you're actively doing the thing I did, which is like, I'm just doing all the things I need to, like, internally make sure I have no regrets. Like, check the block this.

Starting point is 01:24:25 Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. It sucks. It sucks. Yeah. It's shitty. But it's like, it's okay.

Starting point is 01:24:35 It'd be fine. Did the other guy have kids? Does the other guy have kids? No. But he loves my kids. Like, he's around that. I mean, he was. in our house for so long, like the kids know him before.

Starting point is 01:24:48 It was a very, I'd probably do it a little different had I go back. But yeah, no, he doesn't have kids. But I would have more kids. Like, that's what the other thing was. Like, I wanted more. And then he got, my husband got a vasectomy and didn't tell me. That's crazy. That's crazy.

Starting point is 01:25:05 Your husband has some shit that is crazy. Well, I'm sorry you're going through this. It sucks. No, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. All right. Well, keep us posted. I want you decide. I will, for sure. All right. I will.

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Starting point is 01:28:42 And my question is, how do I get over a guy? I really liked who might be gay. Okay. Are you guys currently dating? No, we're not currently dating. It was kind of a drawn-out situation, but no, not currently dating. No. Why do you think he might be gay?

Starting point is 01:29:00 Things that he had said to me that I did some research and, you know, it might be that he actually is. So I can share that, but there's things that he had told me that based on the places he's been going or things that he said that leads me to believe that might be the case. Why did it, why did it end? I mean, it's a situation where it's like on and off communication. We'll chat, we'll talk, then it trails off. And it's kind of where he hasn't taken it further. That also, like, gives me an indication that, you know, my thoughts of him being potentially gay could be true. So how long you were hanging out with him? So I met him more under like a professional setting and then it kind of turned more personal once that was done. Okay. Um, but I,

Starting point is 01:29:51 I had known him like over the course of like a year. So, but yeah, it is like an, it was an on and off thing where we would connect, disconnect, connect, disconnect. So. Well, I honestly think like his sexuality is kind of irrelevant. Mm-hmm. I only say that because like whatever the reason, it sounds like he's not giving, he's not pursuing this relationship in a way that you kind of want to. Correct. Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:30:18 Maybe he's bisexual. I don't know, you know, which is why maybe he's shown some interest in you and also maybe talked about some other things that he's kind of bred cred him some information that suggests that he might be also into men. I don't know. But that's really neither here nor there in the sense that like, it's like honestly, from your perspective on some levels, it's like saying, like, I don't know,

Starting point is 01:30:41 I think he's into blondes. Right. You know? Like, whatever the reason is that stopped him from pursuing something with you, at the end of the day, needs to be enough for you to accept that and move on. Right?

Starting point is 01:30:54 Like, we all like people who sometimes don't like us. We will make connections with people and value their time and enjoy their company. And sometimes we will shoot our shot with those people or, you know, want to explore something deeper with those people, only for them to be like, I don't, I don't know, I'm not, you know. I mean, a lot of friends with women when I was single, that I feel like maybe they might have felt connected to me emotionally.

Starting point is 01:31:21 I only saw them as friends. And there probably was a world where they would have dated me if I would have wanted a date. Yeah. Ultimately, I just saw them as friends and I don't want to date. You guys never really dated. So you clearly, you know, so you probably romanticized thing. you know, moments that you really enjoyed with him. And I'm sure if he was, if he is gay, on some levels,

Starting point is 01:31:42 he probably is better at being more empathetic and connecting with you than say you're traditional, like, straight man. But like, I guess the question is why do you have a hard time accepting this and moving on? Yeah, I guess because I think I like did build it up in my head too. And, you know, I kind of had this hope and this what if, like, what if he decides he does want to continue and go out with me again? And what if he wants to maybe like pursue something more like casual with me? It's always like a what if like maybe he wants this, maybe he wants that.

Starting point is 01:32:12 And that's what keeps me kind of like circling back and thinking about it. And it's like I have tried to, you know, go out with other people and, you know, pursue other connections. And sometimes I do compare. But I feel like it's something I think about. But I don't feel like I would reach out at this point because I feel like I've given him many opportunities and he hasn't really taken the bait on anything. And the only scenario in which I would speak to him again is if I ran into him somewhere and thinking about it now, like, yeah, I would

Starting point is 01:32:46 probably like move with caution, but would still probably entertain it as like, okay, what if he's like ready now to date me or what if he's ready to actually like be serious now? But then it also weighs on me that like, how can I even think of pursuing something with someone who maybe exhibited behaviors that I necessarily wouldn't even like agree with or view as like a red flag. Did you think he's potentially closeted where it's like he hasn't? Yeah, because it's like the main thing that the main red flag about it is when I had went out with him and I asked what he did the previous night. He mentioned he went to this far and then another place. And I'm not familiar with the area because I had just moved here. So I didn't

Starting point is 01:33:29 question it. I just thought, oh, he went to these bars. And then. And I ended up looking up the place, like the name of the place, and it has a reputation where men will go to either engage with other men or experiment with other men. And I mean, I was shocked to see that. But part of me is like, okay, maybe he went there with like a friend. Yeah. I mean, I was just going to say, like, I have a lot of gay friends. I've been to gay bars. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:33:57 Is there any other than like he frequented a couple of gay bars? Yeah. I mean, it's, I don't know if it. would be considered like a gay bar, it seems like... More underground? Yeah, it has like a not a very like good reputation from what I read. And it's not like a place where like, yeah, we can all go out to this gay bar and like have a good time. It's not like, not like that. But yeah, if I was actually going to like date a person who

Starting point is 01:34:24 went there, I mean, I would have probably concern and would want to know like the context in which they were there. But that's what I also question myself. Like, I feel like, I feel like I'm trying to believe he was just there under, you know, innocent, like, pretenses. I mean, the reality is you don't need a bother. You don't need a concern yourself, you know? Yeah. Because I think for whatever reason, he rejected you in the sense that, like, there's, you like them. Mm-hmm. And you kind of just said, I mean, if you were to call you up today, you'd probably accept an invitation to dinner with the idea of exploring, you know, having any good night, right?

Starting point is 01:35:01 Yeah. And he hasn't taken you up on that. And so there's a level of rejection that you feel, right? Now you're into the weeds wondering about a sexuality. And there may be like legitimate like reasons why you have the right to wonder. But it's a moot point, you know. But like I think you're investing your energy in it because like, you know, listen, you were rejected. And it's probably a little easier to discover that you never had a chance.

Starting point is 01:35:26 Then maybe he just, you know, you're not as cup of tea. Regardless, I think at this point, you just need to like be a little bit of, you just need to like be a little bit of like, be like, when it comes to dating, it's really difficult, but you have to just try to like remember what you liked about the interactions you had, and those are the moments you want to replicate. You want to remember the conversations that you enjoyed and the ways like the men that you dated opened up and were vulnerable that made you feel connected to them, and those are the things you want to replicate. You want to remember the things you didn't like, so you know to avoid them in the future with things. Try not to romanticize, you know, and just accept that like this situation

Starting point is 01:35:58 didn't work out, you know? Let's assume he's just tell you that. He's not. going to reach out. Yeah. And if he does, I think a better question is, like, why would you go out to dinner with him at this point? When I started giving this relationship advice back in the day when I was doing questions with Nick on my Instagram, like, the number one thing that I would like want to remind people is like, he's not, he's just bored. You know, at this stage of the game, for him to reach back out isn't like, it's just more, he forgot why he said no to you. Time has passed. He's gotten a little lonely. He looks back. He's a picture and it's like it's like almost like resetting you know the dating app yeah algorithm where it's just

Starting point is 01:36:37 like oh wait she is cute right you know and time pass and reach back out and they're like hey what's up haven't seen you in a while you've been good and you're like you start all over but nothing's really changed and i think that's what was hard it's like when that happens and then he reaches out or you reach out and then there's like back and forth it's kind of like you get hopeful again and then it crashes back down but in those moments you at a minimum, at a minimum, you have to recognize that pattern and you can't be so accommodating. You know? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:37:10 If a guy who you had an interest in got a little flaky with you and got a little inconsistent or, quote unquote, the ghosting-ish kind of stuff, for them to re-engage you, whether it's a week later, a month later, you got to make them beg, right? You got to give them a hard time, you know? It's just like, I don't know, you kind of seem unserious and uninterested. and like I'm looking for things that a little bit more intentional and a little more deliberate

Starting point is 01:37:35 and like I, you know, listen, I think you think I'm cute, but like, you know, whatever stop you from reaching on the past, I think you just need to like sit with that, you know, and like be really direct with these guys because like some guys might, you know,

Starting point is 01:37:49 I think a lot of guys in those moments be like, yeah, you're right, honestly. Like, you know, if a guy who's like flaky, because we all could be flaky, right? And we forget that we're bored. We forget that we are reaching out. But I think in those moments, you will save yourself a lot of energy and time with the guys who, like, are well-intentioned and maybe are just bored. And then you kind of calm out.

Starting point is 01:38:10 And they're kind of like, yeah, no, she's right. She's right. I don't know. Why am I reaching out. Okay. You know. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:38:16 Yeah. And then you want to find the guys who are like, no. I mean, honestly, like, I really want to see you. And listen, you might catch a, you know, the guy who just wants to chase and the, you know, kind of narcissistic personality. And I don't know. But, like, you know, I think most, most of the. decent ones will just like hear that and be like, you're right. And then maybe you'll find a guy who's like, no, you're right and I'm sorry. And I still want a second chance and make them back.

Starting point is 01:38:42 It can't be that easy. Because I think when we meet people who are good at setting their boundaries, you know, no one likes to have difficult conversations and uncomfortable conversations. And if you show that you're good at standing up for yourself, you'll, people will be a lot less likely to waste your time. You know, because they're not going to want to deal with that. Yeah. I feel like I could definitely be more direct. You seem very sweet and very accommodating. Yeah. And I think you open yourself up to like boardmen.

Starting point is 01:39:10 Yeah. And yeah, I know part of it was me like I built it up in my head and also like taking all those like moments when we were together or we're talking like taking it as like, again, this could be something. But it's again, just breadcrumbs. And I feel like I'm at that point where I've decided. there's nothing left for me to do. Like, I've exhausted this with him, and I do think about it.

Starting point is 01:39:37 But again, I feel like, you're right. Like, if I ever do hear from him again or see him again, I have to be a little bit more direct. I think right now you need to catch yourself from thinking about it. The thing that, you know, like, how do I get over? Like, you've got to actively be like, stop. You're thinking about it. You're ruminating about something that is over. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:39:56 And your conscious brain has accepted that it's over, but your subconscious brain is a little resistant to that and your ego or whatever it is that's causing you to ruminate or wonder if he's gay or whatever is this kind of a waste of your time but also keeps you emotionally invested in that relationship because you have something to figure out his sexuality you're invested in what figuring out whether he is or he isn't and you spend your time thinking about that and bringing it down and maybe talking with some of your girlfriends about it and all that does at the other day it doesn't get you anywhere it just keeps you stuck right thinking about him right so if you want to stop thinking about him stop

Starting point is 01:40:29 fingering it out. It's like, listen, it didn't work out. He didn't call me back. He didn't, like, accept my invitation to do things more. I feel a certain way about that. I'm a little sad, but he did it. And I want people who do. And I'm going to move forward. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of that simple. We all ruminate. You just got to catch yourself and not go down those rabbit holes that it seems like you're going down. And that's why you feel stuck. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, then you kind of go out with people after that. And then I find myself like sometimes I would be like comparing. Sure.

Starting point is 01:41:04 But, you know, that's the thing too, like going out with a guy who might seem like he has all these green flags and, you know, seems so good on paper. And then I'm like, I don't feel that like spark or immediate connection and not ending it, but kind of closing that door or opportunity. But yeah, I don't want to force anything either. So, and I guess the same could be said about him, whatever his reason is. Like he didn't want to force things with me. And I mean, I feel the same way with other people.

Starting point is 01:41:29 too. So, yeah, I feel guilty sometimes. Like, why did I like a guy who clearly has some, you know, either personal dilemmas or challenges and then there's guys who might seem more. Because it's exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I think I just have to more consciously, like, stop myself from ruminating, like you

Starting point is 01:41:51 said, because I feel like that is a trait of mine, like I like to overanalyze and dwell on things. Same. Same. Try not to do that. I mean, again, it's, it doesn't just, it's not just a switch that goes on and off. You have to actively kind of check in with yourself. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:42:08 As long as you're, but again, I think it's really important for you to understand his sexuality is irrelevant to you. Okay. Yeah. I think that's step one. Okay. It's a conversation. You can talk about your friends. You can break it down.

Starting point is 01:42:22 You can analyze it. You know, and if you're someone who likes to ruminate and has a habit of doing that, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a top. you can get really stuck off. Yeah. And I guess I felt a little bit too, like if someone is going through that or dealing with it, like why I was thrown into the situation, like why they pursued. You weren't going into it. No, I mean, like, he pursued me, like, after the professional.

Starting point is 01:42:46 Well, again, like, we don't know and we honestly don't care, but just to play this game, again, maybe he's bisexual, maybe he is closeted. I don't know. Like, you know, I think a lot of gay men have a lot of meaningful. close connections with women, right? So it's maybe just easy for him to make emotional connections with women, right? And then he kind of gets to a point where it's like he feels like a woman is attracted to him and he doesn't have any of those romantic feelings to assert because he's gay or whatever. And yeah, he's having a hard time doing that. And he's navigating, you know, and he's closeted.

Starting point is 01:43:20 So, like, it must be very difficult for him, you know, but like you're not a victim in this relationship. He just, like, enjoyed having a connection with you, you know? Like, it's, you had a good time. And, like, you know, you were forming a friendship. And, you know, you probably found him attractive or whatever. And, like, you know, with the assumption that he was straight, you were allowing yourself to be like, oh, I'm having a nice time with a man who's treating me well and I'm enjoying his company. I think I might like him, right?

Starting point is 01:43:47 You know? And so there's nothing to analyze there, you know? Yeah. We don't know what a sexuality is. there's bits of information you learned that, oh, I may be, but it really, I think it's, it's irrelevant. It really is irrelevant. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:44:01 It's no different than finding out, you know, you're a brunette, right? Like, you went on a date with a guy. Let's say everything was the same except for his, the questions about a sexuality. You know, you had a couple good dates. It felt like meaningful. And then you kind of flaked. Kind of just fizzled out. And then you like, you ran into someone he knew and you're like, really?

Starting point is 01:44:22 you guys dated, he's like, I've only ever seen him date blondes. And then you spend the next months being like, well, why did he date me? Like, what was it about me? Like, why did he date? I'm the only, why? Why did he do that? Why did he waste my time? You know what I'm like?

Starting point is 01:44:36 You could do the same. It's the same thing that you're doing, right? You're just like, you know, the fact that it's about his sexuality feels, I don't know, more serious to you or something. I don't know. But it really is no different than if, you know, if his preferences were blonde. Yeah. You know, he tried to mix it up.

Starting point is 01:44:58 Right. That's, you know. Yeah, that's true. The point is he just, he lost interest. Yeah. And your ego is a little upset about that, a little sad. And rather than accepting it, you're trying to figure it out. And that is what's keeping you stuck.

Starting point is 01:45:14 Yes. And that's why you have to challenge yourself to stop doing. Yeah. It's like you're looking for some type of like final like, okay, and this is the reason why. But you're not going to get that. The million reasons why. Yeah. You know, that's a bad day.

Starting point is 01:45:29 I don't know. It doesn't matter. Okay. Yeah. No, that's a better way to reframe it and look at it. So can I ask you one more question? Shoot. So this is a different subject now.

Starting point is 01:45:40 I had met this guy while I was out during like Halloween weekend. And, you know, we connected. We buy. he's like 10 years younger than me. He ended up like texting me after. We went out last week, like on a date. And then we're going out again tonight. I guess like I like him, but I know like given the age gap and where I'm at where he's at, the expectation that there will be something like serious.

Starting point is 01:46:11 I mean, I don't expect that. But it's like, I don't know. I guess just like advice on like navigating this. Go have fun. I mean, he's probably going to, he'll probably be fun, and there's probably an excitement, and there's probably like, I don't know, a little bit of an ego boost to be like, you know, a guy who's 10 years younger than me is interested in me. I think you can go and enjoy it and, yeah, proceed with caution.

Starting point is 01:46:33 How old do you again? I'm 31 now. So he's 21. Yes. I mean, listen, like, I think there's exceptions to every rule rules. My wife was 21 when I met her, you know, men and women are, I think, different emotion. you know, anything's possible, but like, there's a more likely chance than not that he is way less emotionally mature than you.

Starting point is 01:46:57 Yeah. And this is very exciting for him. Yeah. And I think a lot of young men, it's fun. It's exciting. So I would just see this as a fun and exciting thing. Yeah. You know, and I would.

Starting point is 01:47:11 Okay. Yeah, because that's a thing, like, long term, like, yeah, I want to meet someone and, you know, be in a serious relationship with them. If you have no other plans today, right. Yeah, so that's the thing. You're going to have some fun. You're allowed to go.

Starting point is 01:47:24 Yeah. Yeah. So, and it's like, of course, if someone else came into the picture, I would prioritize that if they're, you know, weren't the same, like, age group as me and, you know, same stage. What you don't want to do is don't have so much fun and have it, like, turn into something. And then all of a sudden, you know, you might, you could easily just be like, this is run its course, or he could say it's run its course. What you don't want to happen is that you keep hanging out with them.

Starting point is 01:47:50 You have some fun. You let your guard down. And then it's run its course for him. And then you are emotionally hung up on a guy. You really shouldn't be emotionally hung up on. But you feel rejected. He beats you to it, so to speak. And then you get a little crushed over something that you honestly were never serious about

Starting point is 01:48:08 or shouldn't be serious about. But it was a good time. And he was a gentleman. And he made you feel hot and sexy. And you're going to miss that. but you're not going to miss him. Like, just be careful. You don't allow that.

Starting point is 01:48:22 Yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm proceeding with like caution with it, but I'm not trying to set an expectation. Allow him to make you feel good about yourself. But like just be aware of the situation. Yeah, for sure. All right. Cool. Well, have fun.

Starting point is 01:48:37 Thank you. Yeah, maybe I'll give an update. I would love one. Awesome. All right. Well, hopefully this was helpful. Yes, it was. I'm glad I got like a male perspective just because like I just talk about it with my girlfriend.

Starting point is 01:48:51 So it's good to get. Stop talking about the other guy with your girlfriends. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. All right. For sure.

Starting point is 01:48:58 Okay. Take care. All right. Thank you. Bye.

The Viall Files - E1048 Ask Nick I Ruined My Perfect Life

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