The Viall Files - E1053 Ask Nick Im Spending New Years Alone

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Starting point is 00:01:54 Again, that's drinkag1.com slash V-I-A-A-L. You said a few minutes ago, this person's like family. She's like kin. This call started with like, should I just be done with this friendship? She's your family. If you really feel that way about her that she really is family, then that should change your calculus how you view this situation. And you should have a little bit more long-term grace.

Starting point is 00:02:16 But this idea of like being done with her because you can't handle your expectations being disappointed. I think that that's more of a, you. thing than her thing. How's it going? Good. Thanks. My name's Olivia and I'm 29 and I'm wondering if I should move to South Africa for my fiance. Okay. Well, why wouldn't you? I guess. Let's just walk through. Yeah, well, tell me about the relationship. Tell me why. I mean, obviously it's a huge move. You're moving across the world and I imagine there's a lot of variables at play. But what are your concerns and I guess let's walk through it. Yeah, I mean, to start, I love it there. I really could see myself living there. So I guess we can talk about it under that veil. But we met here about three years ago,

Starting point is 00:03:19 live in the state that we're living in. You know, we have a house here. We have a business here. All my friends and family are here, or at least on the West Coast. And so it obviously would be a huge uproot of my life. But at the same time, he is currently doing that because all of his friends and family are back home. I mean, in a different way because our life is here together. Yeah, it's just difficult because he's a bit older than me. So his family is a bit older naturally as well. So he really wants to be there for his mom in this time.

Starting point is 00:03:55 How old? You're 29? I'm 29 and he's 36. Okay. Yeah. So he really, he's really said to me so many times, you know, when we've first got together when we got engaged since then that he loves our life here, that he'd be happy if we lived in America forever. But I can see that he really wants to move back there at

Starting point is 00:04:20 some point, even if it's just for a small stint. So there's nothing pressing or immediate where he's like, I just got my dream job and are you willing to be with me? Or is it just like, hey, at some point I'd like to get back there? Yeah. So there's nothing, nothing. immediate. It's more so we are very big planners, both of us, so we're both kind of planning the next couple years. And he's just like, so when are we moving back to South Africa? And I'm like, I don't know. So it's it's kind of more so just getting myself mentally ready. And also my family. My family's already given a little bit of pushback at like the thought of it. So it's more so that I really could see myself going there. We plan to have kids in the next year or two. And obviously,

Starting point is 00:05:12 that's a huge factor of like, where do we raise our kids? And does my family miss out on the younger years versus his family missing out on the younger years? So what is your, I mean, either way, it's just a far fucking, like how, like how do you get there? It sounds like you're on the West Coast. Yeah. So you have to take a flight to the East Coast and then a about 15 hour flight to South Africa. Direct flight from New York? From the East Coast, yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 00:05:42 And minus the inconvenience of the travel, do you guys have the means to go back and forth often? Yeah. I mean, thankfully, that's not an issue. We do have the means to kind of come and go as we need if we need. The kids part, I mean, that's the biggest, like, where are you going to do that is the biggest variable. not that you can't like for example if if nally was south african you know rivers almost two i guess right now we could up and move like it wouldn't like affect her life i mean obviously you know all the variables

Starting point is 00:06:16 and grandparents but like the location she you know like you know what i'm saying we could still do it so it's not like you have to decide before you have kids but maybe before you have your second well you don't have to as he mentioned like he he said like he he would move He would live in the States forever if he really wanted to. But he's, so I guess like, because right now the way you seem to be communicating it, it's a lot of like, he's not being super like clear and definitive. You're both being like, it sounds like you're both trying to be understanding and accommodating and empathetic to the other person.

Starting point is 00:06:50 But you both kind of understand what the other person wants and needs. How long has he lived here? He's lived here since 2020. Okay. All right. Yeah. Only five years. And I should say,

Starting point is 00:07:02 The reason I wrote in is because I've always known this has been something he may want to do. But recently it's been more, we came, we went to South Africa for a month recently and came back. And I think every time we go, he remembers why he loves it so much. He sees all his friends and family and he kind of brings it up again. So when we got back from that trip here, he. Why did he move here? Actually for his ex. Interesting.

Starting point is 00:07:31 Yeah. Okay. Well, no, he didn't, sorry, he didn't move here for his ex. He stayed here for his ex. He moved here for a job. Okay. Yeah. So he was first on the East Coast for a job, met someone else, didn't work out, and then ended up just staying here. Interesting. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess what, like, other than, like, him randomly being, like, so randomly being, like, so when are we going to move? What, when is he, like, is there a deadline? Like, when you? I think probably in the next couple years, it would be more serious. And I think what I know. need, like, advice on is how to approach it with him if it's, like, not necessarily the right time, because I know I'm making him out to be very understanding. And he is. But I also think that he would, if I definitively was like, no, we're not going, he would, it would be hard for him. Um, and then my family, having a conversation with my family. He's already made like, kind of these, like,

Starting point is 00:08:26 offhand jokes of like, yeah, when we're in South Africa and my family's like, no. So, you know, I've said it too to my family and they've kind of, I think they're taking it as like a sure. Yeah, I'll move to South Africa. But if I, if it does become reality, how I kind of break that to them, especially if we have children. What do you guys do for work if you don't mind me asking? Yeah, I'm a lawyer and he is a works does like optimization out at a logistics company. And you guys can live anywhere? Yeah. So I own my own business and he's actually, coming on to work for it as well. So we will own this business together and have a lot of flexibility that way. So that's kind of, you know, the job aspect is not as big of a deal. Couldn't you guys,

Starting point is 00:09:16 I mean, again, I don't know your financial situation. Sounds like you're doing okay. Is there a world where you guys could like buy property in South Africa and like some are there? Yeah. Yes. There is. And we've talked about that because we currently go for. like a month every year. And we've talked about maybe increasing that time, like three months maybe, and then, you know, spending the rest of the year here. But I think the problem is he's like, yeah, that's amazing. But like we'll always want to then have a stint where we are just, it's maybe the opposite. And we're fully living there. I explain that to me again. I don't like, he wants a summer in America. Yes. Yes. Listen, if you

Starting point is 00:10:02 are lucky enough to be able to even consider something like that, whichever direction you guys go, it, that is a pretty decent compromise. I mean, listen, it's like, you know, you ask like, what's the advice, how do I communicate that with him type of thing? I guess I would say from your point of view, transparently, you can say, listen, like, obviously I love you. I want to build a future with you. I am empathetic to like the fact that you are close with your family and friends because I know it would be difficult for me. So like, you, we are in a pickle. because we both get it. The only difference between your situation and mine is, like, you know what it's like to live here,

Starting point is 00:10:39 and I don't know what it's like to live there. So I can't promise you how I'm going to feel being halfway across the world, and I don't know how I'm going to feel being away from my family for so long, and I don't know how I'm going to feel having kids in South Africa without my parents, you know, and support system there. you know and I think more than anything like maybe articulating that because that's kind of like I don't know you know and he slightly you know he knows a little bit more than you and he might say well I know that I miss my family too but he obviously has done this for five years he seems to have made a life here he has met you the idea of having to be here for a longer period time he's it's he has partly accepted that you know like

Starting point is 00:11:29 When he proposed to you, obviously, I'm sure he was like, I wonder if I could get her back to South Africa. And obviously, when he makes jokes, he makes jokes to your family knowing there's a lot of pushback, but he's kind of testing the waters. So, you know what I'm saying? Like he's not like it doesn't sound like he's, you know, either I'm going to make, I mean, you know, people can change their mind. But it doesn't sound like when you proposed to you, it was get her to, this is step one of get her to move to South Africa or we're going to break up. Yeah, no. So, yeah, I mean, really it's just you guys sitting down and figuring out a compromise. And with knowing that if you decide to go out there, you can't promise how it's going to affect you.

Starting point is 00:12:12 And having kids, I mean, obviously Nalia's mom was very present early in River's life. It's not like, although she came and lived with us, I mean, granted, she went from Alabama to L.A. It's not like, I'm sure your mom or your parent, I mean, you have a good relationship with your parents. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure your mom would probably come out and stay, you know, for a period of time. Yeah, you know, I don't, I mean, I think you just got to have to keep talking about it, but try to find the compromise. Yeah. So wait, why, why, just out of curiosity, why if, other than he's from South Africa and he wants to be in South Africa more, if he were on this call, if he was trying to be as pragmatic as possible, feelings aside, why does it make more sense to summarize?

Starting point is 00:12:59 in the States rather than South Africa? He, I think, honestly, it's more, I mean, it's a gorgeous place. It is like beautiful. It's, he has a huge community there. You know, I've made friends there through people he knows. And the school system is actually incredibly good. It's private school, but it's very different than America because it's, it's just much cheaper there.

Starting point is 00:13:26 And the private schools are very good. So the school system is good, and that's something to consider when we have kids. Like, do we send them to school there? And then in that case, they're obviously there most of the year. That's appealing. I mean, listen, I don't know. I've never been in South Africa. It's definitely on my bucket list of, like, places I would like to visit before I die.

Starting point is 00:13:48 It's always been on there. So, like, it sounds like an incredible place. Listen, I could be kind of cool to raise kids in South Africa and know that they're, like, dual citizens. and, you know, obviously, your number, you never, doesn't sound like you're like one of those people's like, I want to get out of America, you know, but like you're, you know, it sounds like you're, you know, being an American, there's a lot of privileges and blessings that come with it.

Starting point is 00:14:11 And to grow up with parents, you know, with both, access to both could be kind of cool. I mean, listen, whatever you decide to do, it sounds like you both are in a good situation, right? Like, I mean, that's the cool, exciting part is you, you've referenced his community, his friends several times. It sounds like it would be a fun experience.

Starting point is 00:14:31 The downside for you is, you know, the culture shock and missing your family and things like that. But, you know, you can probably stream Netflix anywhere. I feel like culture shock is different than it used to be in terms of, like, access to like feeling like you're disconnected from part of the world that you're in. But how serious are these conversations? We've had, I would say, five or six. more deep in-depth conversations.

Starting point is 00:15:01 And honestly, the last one, I think I got a little overwhelmed. So it turned into a not an argument, but a dispute over like him being, I think him also getting a little overwhelmed and being like, well, I really want to go. And I was like, well, I can't give you an answer right now. So it turned into that. So I think that was fresh in my mind too when I wrote in. Because after the conversation, I was thinking, I really do want to go. all the reasons you just articulated.

Starting point is 00:15:28 Like, I think it would be an amazing experience. I've always kind of wanted or saw myself living abroad for a little bit and coming back and then, you know, having our kids have that experience too. So then afterward, I just started reflecting on like, do I, am I actually opposed to this or am I just nervous about telling all of my people here and actually committing to it? What do you think that is? I think it's just a huge life move that people will be like, what the hell? She just moved to South Africa.

Starting point is 00:16:02 And it's not even that I care that much about what everyone thinks. I mean, obviously, due to an extent. But I think it's just, to be honest, I don't even love where we live now. So it's like I could do a change, but it's just so drastic that I think it's hard to mentally prepare yourself for something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, hell, I remember living in Milwaukee and always wanted to move to Chicago, which was 90 miles south and being like, I don't know if I could do this.

Starting point is 00:16:31 This is like a big thing. So, like, yeah, it's, I can imagine what it's like for South Africa. I do remember finally moving to Chicago and being like, oh, that was super easy. Could have done that last, you know, at literally any point. This is all to say, my, I had a brother, I have a brother, who lived in South Korea for three years, teaching English, you know, so I don't really exactly equally as like far. Yeah. You know, and we're relatively close family. I mean, obviously like, I don't know. It's not like, I didn't feel like I lost a brother for three years, you know, he visited a few times. Obviously,

Starting point is 00:17:08 it's easy to keep in touch through technology, you know, like objectively speaking, I don't know if I saw my brother any less than my sister who lived in Vancouver at the time. You know, So yeah, I mean, like, it's not like impossible. It's definitely super inconvenient when you and your family choose to like make a visit. But the benefit is like, especially if they're going to South Africa, they are going to truly like this kind of magical place. Yeah. So, I mean, again, like I think more than anything, if you need to be able to communicate what I said before, just with the, I need to know that we can come back. I need to know that's a reasonable discussion if I agree to move.

Starting point is 00:17:48 And listen, it's, you guys are engaged now, you guys have a long way to go with your relationship. I'm not saying anything to worry about. But that, it gets tricky, you know, God forbid. You just really want to make sure you guys are on the same page and very connected and very, just very much a team. And at the end of the day, you guys are going to have to make sure that, like, yeah, you guys are a team. And more than anything, I'd love to, because this is such a, like, no one wins, so to speak. someone's going to feel a little like uncomfortable, a little scared, a little worried, whatever this decision is.

Starting point is 00:18:24 You guys really need to feel like we're doing this together. We have a, you mentioned you're both planners. Like we, we want to have a family together. Our ultimate goal is like making sure our kids are happy and taken care of. And like at the end of days, no matter where we are, as long as we are together, we are fine.

Starting point is 00:18:41 And honestly, like, you guys really have to set that framework and then work within that framework. But like, yeah, I think you have to, like, if you make the move, you have to be like, again, I just don't know how I'm going to feel. And I think it's important as a mom. You feel like, you know, safe and comfortable, especially if you decide to have children. And, you know, during a pregnancy that you are, you know, you have a strong support system and things like that. Because that, that, that definitely matters. I mean, Natalie being pregnant was certainly an experience for me, but like, it was definitely

Starting point is 00:19:13 very different for her, you know. I was always, like, can I get you anything? You know? You know, there's always not that much I can do. So, yeah, I mean, those are pretty important variables that consider. But yeah, there's no perfect way of doing this. I just think it's really important. You guys stay a team and be on the same page.

Starting point is 00:19:37 And you guys both feel like at the end of the day, it's your relationship. And ultimately, if you guys move forward and have kids, it's your family that's the priority. and not mom and dad on either direction and not friends in either direction. And obviously that's lovely and it's great to have a community, but it really matters what, like,

Starting point is 00:19:55 what you guys have. It's awesome that you guys have the flexibility with work, you know, but like maybe you would lose that flexibility and you were required to move somewhere because of a job. And again, in those situations,

Starting point is 00:20:07 it's like, hey, we're together. You know, we have to go to, you know, the middle of a, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:12 it's just like, no disrespect to Lincoln, Nebraska. But like if I had to move to Lincoln, Nebraska, I have a cousin there. He says it's great. But like, it would be very, it would be a culture shock for me in a way. It would be very different. I'd feel kind of alone. Same with Natalie. But let's say we had to do it. Like, we would make it work and we would find the best parts of that place and build a community, but we would have each other. You know, and like a lot of families do that or force to do that. And yours is just like further away. But at the same time, there's a lot of exciting, cool things about it. you know. Yeah. Yeah, it's good advice. Just like always remembering that we're a team and the only reason we would be doing this is to stay together and, you know, decide together that that's where we want our life to be right now. And I think we do do a good job at like coming back to that. And he does a very good job at it too because I mean, he's here now and he's like, you know, I'm here. Not because of me. He was living here already. But I do, I do just sense it a lot with him like

Starting point is 00:21:13 in his conversations with me about like that he would be in south africa if we if we never met it's like a like he would yeah he would have gone back yeah so it's i think i just feel a lot of guilt or like pressure on like the timeline of it and um obviously we do have the conversations of like we're a team and we're together in doing this but i think he's kind of the balls in my court in a sense and i think your advice is good to like make it more of a joint conversation and make him understand how difficult to it. He already knows how difficult it is, but how difficult, like you said, I've never lived there.

Starting point is 00:21:50 So I have a different mindset. Setting aside when, like when we're making these kind of big decisions, sometimes we know, sometimes we ultimately know what decision we're going to make in the long run. We just don't know when we're going to make it or how we're going to make it. So I'm curious for you, is there a part of you that's kind of like eventually I know I'm going to agree to this? I just don't know when and how. Or are you still like, I really don't know if I could actually do this?

Starting point is 00:22:17 It's a very good question. I think I'm leaning. I think honestly I feel like it's going to happen. And it's just a matter of when. I wonder if like, I wonder if it makes, I mean, knowing that, like, I wonder if it makes to do it sooner or later just to try it out. Yeah. I don't know how active or social your lives are now with friends.

Starting point is 00:22:39 If you guys do end up having kids together, I can tell you that, I mean, again, I can only speak from my experience, but it really makes your world smaller in the best possible way in the sense that you're really like, this is all I care about that's right in front of me. Like, this is all that matters. Yeah. As long as you feel supported, it won't matter where you are. So in a weird way, I guess you could argue if you moved now, you would have more idle hands in a way because it was like, okay, I'm a kind of alone. I mean, I have my fiance and I certainly have made friends and I know his family, but there's a sense of aloneness you'll feel being away from the states and your family. You will not feel alone. I mean, I can't speak. But like, there's a good chance.

Starting point is 00:23:24 You will feel like not alone when you have a kid because you'll be like, you know, you will always have that baby. So I don't know. That's an interesting way to think about it. So you're saying it's better to move now. Well, I don't know. I've kind of changed my mind. I mean, I don't know what's better, to be clear.

Starting point is 00:23:43 Like, tell us what to do. Moving now is interesting because it's like you, you know, you just have each other. So you can just kind of focus on that and not be too worried about it and lower stakes, I suppose. But again, a little more free time, a little more idle hands potentially and more risk of feeling alone, potentially. Yeah. The upside is you get settled in, you build a community. you guys settle down, get married, start to have kids. It really already feels like a home, you know, and that could be beneficial.

Starting point is 00:24:17 Or let's say you get married here, have a kid. And then now the kid's one year's old. And now that might make it harder on your parents and your family to then, you know, but at that point, it would be like we're moving as a family. And when you move, I could see that in a way making you feel less alone, knowing that like you have your family again but like that i can't predict how you're going to feel i'm literally just kind of spitball in here so no i think i agree with that i think more so i mean because i've been there a lot not a ton but a lot um i do feel like it's you know i could see it being comfortable

Starting point is 00:24:59 for me and and being a home and and you know bringing kids there so i think i like the idea of having kids and then maybe moving as a family. I also think, I don't know, when you said, like, move now, I didn't have a great feeling about it. So I think maybe I just need more time, or maybe I do want a family so that I'm not feeling, it's not just my husband that I have. I also have a baby to care for. I don't know. I mean, you don't know how you will feel once you have the baby. It could make it trickier. And I imagine, I imagine if you presented that, he would, he would, it might make them feel a little uncomfortable. Avoiding to have a child.

Starting point is 00:25:38 Yeah, because it's like, well, because if, without having been a dad before, if you presented that to me, I would have been like, that's going to make it even more impossible. We're going to be, our roots are going to be here. Your parent, you know, like there's a strong argument to be made that it might be, the actual move might be more emotionally difficult. Yeah. Once you get there, it also might make it a little more easier to adjust. but the actual decision will probably be very difficult.

Starting point is 00:26:09 And if I'm him, I could see why that would be like, okay, I know, that's okay, I guess. Yeah, yeah, I can see that for sure. Well, then, I mean, I guess. But it's one of those things where if you, it sounds like, I don't know how impatient he's getting, but there's also a part of him that probably doesn't really know for sure whether you're ever really going to do this. Yeah. And so you have, if you can get to a place where you feel comfortable making that promise, where it's just like, listen, I'm still wrapping my brain around this. I don't know when, but like, I promise you, we will try this out. I don't know if it'll work. I don't if it'll stay there, but we'll give it a real shot, you know, a few years. And ultimately, I think you probably have until your firstborn is in some kind of school system to really decide where you, you know, where you settle down. Up into that,

Starting point is 00:27:01 point, you know, you guys can go back and forth. Your kid won't know the difference would be kind of exciting. And even then, it's not you can't move once they're in school, but it does make it more difficult once you've really initiated them into your community. And that makes it harder. But, you know, for the next, you know, five plus years, you guys, you know, and if your jobs make it flexible, you have a chance to try it out. And again, like, you know, if you're lucky enough to summer one is is summer in the winter there isn't it yeah it's in the winter and actually their school system is more normal it's january to december so there's not really like a summer break like there is oh no so it's it's flop so there's that to consider as well um well that's a win

Starting point is 00:27:52 for you yeah it is so you could be like i live here we summer there because you guys don't have a summer for us to do that yeah yeah Yeah, very true. I guess I'm just more the anxiety that I get, because I know that if it were just us and we're never having kids, I know for a fact, like, let's go try it out and it'd be fine. But knowing we'll have kids, hopefully, in the next couple years, and rooting them in a school system,

Starting point is 00:28:21 I know I moved around a lot as a kid, and it wasn't great. I think I've always wanted, like, a very, not that it wouldn't be stable, but if we're moving back and forth and, you know, taking them out of their friend group and out of their community and sports and whatever, I think it just then gets very tricky to then make the move back if we did want to at some point. Potentially. But that being said, I mean, I don't know what you mean by trick. It was wasn't good. I'm sure there, I understand there are parts of it that you probably hated it. You'd seem to it turned out, you know. also is a different situation. My parents are divorced, so it was like back and forth for that, which obviously is different than back and forth with your family. Listen, there's no easy way to make this decision, and there's no way you can guarantee

Starting point is 00:29:12 how either of you are going to feel. I think the biggest thing is, is you, it's really important you guys feel like a team and you feel supported. And other than you promising to someday move, you guys can't, you have to both acknowledge you can't promise how the other person, how each other is going to feel about these decisions. But it's, you really have to have the mindset that wherever I am, as long as I'm with you, will be okay. And then do your best to try to, like, just be sensitive to the other person's needs and do what you can to try to do that. I mean, like at the other day, you're both going to like, willing to bet that if you move there, you guys are going to have to, you're going to want to visit a lot more than you would probably

Starting point is 00:29:52 have to visit the other way around. I don't know. Maybe not. I don't know. Maybe both. You just get, get those freaking flyer miles, you know. Yeah, yeah. But also, like, pretend, I mean, what had an exciting life, you know? Yeah. So I would also focus on that, too. Like, most people aren't in this position where they feel like they have this fiancé that they love. Sounds like he has a pretty good family.

Starting point is 00:30:18 And it sounds like he's doing pretty good for himself. And so is his family and in a beautiful place that, you know, most people never are lucky enough to visit, let along live. You know, and having the flexibility to potentially go back and forth is kind of exciting. Obviously, these decisions are big and scary, but you don't have to, like, you can get it wrong, so to speak. Yeah. You know, you can come home.

Starting point is 00:30:40 You can come back. You guys, you might have to work through it. There might be some tough conversations, but, like, you, it, you don't have to, you don't have to get it right, so to speak. You can, you can make a decision. You guys can experience something together. and then you guys can change your mind. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:58 You really have to be on the same page and, you know. Yeah, that's really good advice because it's like very calming because I think to me, I'm like, I'm making this decision and if it's wrong, it's the end of the world or, you know, I get very like spirally about those things. So I think it's very calming to be like, it's okay if it's a wrong decision or I'm not happy there or whatever the case may be. I think I'm more so worried about disappointing him if I end up not being happy there because he loves it so much. I have a woman friend.

Starting point is 00:31:33 I don't know you. She's a, everyone is, but she's a unique person. She's also, you know, I don't know, she's from Georgia.

Starting point is 00:31:41 She met a guy. She lives in France. She couldn't be happier. She has two kids there, you know. She's living her absolute best life. I'd never in a million years would have imagined she would have moved to France. I would have imagined she would have moved to France.

Starting point is 00:31:53 imagine she would have had kids. But now she's in France, you know, with a hockey player and truly living her best life. And she's never been happier, you know. Yeah. So. Good inspiration. Yeah. I mean, she looks like she's really, truly, I mean, from afar on social media, she, she's living

Starting point is 00:32:15 the dream. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, that's, it's good advice just to, to take it in stride, kind of. and just see how I feel about every step. And yeah, your questions were good thought provokers. So I think it is just starting with that, a conversation between us. Well, keep us posted.

Starting point is 00:32:34 Even if a couple years go by, you finally make the move or don't make the move, let us know. We'd love to follow your story. Yeah, I will, definitely. Awesome. And love your show. I appreciate you. Yeah. All right.

Starting point is 00:32:46 Well, nice to meet you. Bye. Bye. All right. You too. Bye-bye. The holidays are officially here. and if you're still scrambling for gifts

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Starting point is 00:34:06 That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R-com. Wayfair, every style, every home. How's it going? Good. Are you sure? Yes, yes, I promise. I'm good. All right, what's your name? My name is Julie and I am 31.

Starting point is 00:34:22 How can I help Julie? So basically my best friend of the last 10 years has always chosen a man over me and put her relationship first and trying to figure out if I should reconcile or I should just love her and let her go. Does it have to be one of the two? I literally can't decide because it's like something that I feel so like emotional and like hurt over and I'm like trying not to cry about it. but I don't know if it could be one or the other. Well, I mean, I guess where I'm asking is you have 10 years of this friendship of already feeling like she has a tendency of choosing men over you. Yes.

Starting point is 00:35:00 It's gotten worse over the last couple of years, but I think... Is she your age? Yeah. No, she's 36. Okay. So she's older. A little bit of an age gap. So if we're empathizing with her, you know, she's probably feeling time passing

Starting point is 00:35:16 and she's getting older and probably getting more. anxious and more frustrated the fact that she hasn't been able to secure the relationship she wants. And it makes sense why it's gotten worse. Oh my gosh, does it? I like, I can't decide if I'm, here's that I'm like very hurt by it and I'm very like upset by it. So yeah, tell me, walk me through why you're so hurt to the point where you're like, I just, it might be better to just not have you in my life versus being disappointed. and frustrated, but also just accepting your friend for who she is and her limits and her strengths and still being happy that she's a part of your life while reframing your expectations of her

Starting point is 00:36:03 and the friendship. Okay. So I'll give you a little bit of context without trying to drag it out too long, but that's important context. But like I said, we were friends or we've been friends for 10 years. We met at work and it was like a pretty toxic job. So we like trauma bonded almost immediately. And then we clicked immediately. Like I mean, we had the same like interest. We have the same morals, ethics, like whatever you want to call it. We like liked the same everything. And I was like so enamored by this friendship that I was like I had never had a friend like her before. And I think over the few years that we had gotten to know each other, she she and I would like pour into each other so much like from my perspective at first. And, you know, she has always told me like, oh, you've helped me through so many

Starting point is 00:36:45 things in my life. And I'm not saying I need anything for that, but like examples being like when I first met her, she, you know, identified as, you know, a gay man. And now she's transitioned into being a trans woman, which is great. And I'm so happy for her. And I empathize at the time that dating for her was really hard. And I understood that people of the community. I've been around people in that community my entire life. And I understand it's hard for them. So I was always there for her. And I was always like trying to understand and empathize from her point of view. But as like the time, went on, I kind of always realized that she was almost like a self-serving friend, but I was so, like, I had never had a friend like her in my life that I was so okay with having her kind of

Starting point is 00:37:22 dictate the friendship. And what I mean by that is it, it was in little ways at first. Like, all the restaurants she wanted to go to, we would go to. If we had a council plans, because she didn't feel like it, we would do that. If we had to, I don't know, Uber from one of her houses, it would be closer to hers. She's like, okay, let's just do it for my, like, Little ways like that. Anytime she would go on a date cancel plans, which like, that's fine. Okay. When I was in my early 20s, I didn't really care because I wasn't in a stable relationship, but I have been now for the last five years. I've been in a long-term relationship, me and my boyfriend lived together. And I feel like in the last few years, I have been out of not all of my friends,

Starting point is 00:37:58 but most of my friends, the one that's the most stable as far as like the relationship goes. And I always carved out the time for her. And now she's not doing that. And in the last two years, she's in a new relationship, which happens to be the most stable relationship she's ever been in. And I'm really happy for her because that's what I want for her. But, you know, we started to live in the same city and I saw her less and less and less. And she would, like, lie about what she was doing or who she was with or, like, whatever, because she had been unfaithful in the past in a lot of her relationships. And this is the only one that she's not.

Starting point is 00:38:30 So that I know of. And so I want to be, like, empathetic with her. But I also am, like, pissed. and she's also missed a lot of like pretty big life events of mine that I would have appreciated her being there that all my other friends were there and four and I would have wished that she was the one that was there the most. And I haven't talked to her by the way in about a month and a half. And I, this is the longest I've ever not talked to her. And the 10 year friendship that we've had, it's insane. And I'm just realizing that like now it's different, but like, why is it different?

Starting point is 00:39:02 I can't figure out. I feel like I have an answer for everything all the time in all my friendships and whatever and I give advice to people, whatever. And I'm like stumped. And I don't know what the hell to do because I am like trying not to be angry, but I'm also trying to be like, I just miss my friend. And like I want her to like be in my life. But I just don't know how to like tell her that because I have told her that in the past. And she like doesn't like it doesn't click with her. There's nothing resonating with her that I'm like, why is our friendship more important to me than it is to you? Like maybe we're just two different people in that sense or maybe I'm just not, there's something going on that I'm not seeing.

Starting point is 00:39:36 Like, I don't know what it is, but like at this point, I would feel that she could be comfortable enough with me to tell me these things, but maybe she's not. And like, I don't know if I'm, like, mad about that or not. So I just like, so. So your statement, I thought was like a profound statement in a way that stood out with everything that you said is that I feel like this relationship's more important to me than it is to her.

Starting point is 00:39:57 That's how you feel, which is valid. It doesn't make it true. Right. knowing very little about both of you from what you just talked about you would describe yourself as someone who you seem in control of your life you have this relationship that seems to be really serving you well you're content with it because you're content with your life you have the emotional bandwidth to prioritize other things because like a lot of the important things in your life are stable and steady and you don't have to wake up every day for fear of

Starting point is 00:40:32 of losing them. It's been steady. Sure. And for her, whether it's true or not, and maybe she's going about it in all the wrong ways, but she probably feels like her life isn't where it needs to be. And I can only imagine her transitioning was probably very confusing and complicated and all these things that, you know, I can't relate to, you can't relate to. So it's not that it's more important to you and less important to her. It might just feel that way to you. You know what I'm saying. Yeah. And, you know, your response is it kind of makes sense, which is kind of like, yeah, yeah, you're probably right. You don't like the answer. It's annoying. It's like, but that is this kind of the reality, right? Yeah. I mean, listen, the only, when it comes to

Starting point is 00:41:19 friendships like this, you really, you choose to be in them. Like, just like relationships, it's a choice. But even with friendships, it's even more of a choice, right? Because there's like, you mean, you could break up your boyfriend today, I guess, if you wanted to, you know, and, you know, it might be hard. Break up, you know, if you're married, it's even harder to break up. And if you have kids, it's even harder to break up. There's things that really bond people together. Friendships is truly like, hey, you know, right now, you're literally like,

Starting point is 00:41:44 maybe I should just be done with this friendship. You know, emotionally difficult, but like logistically easy to end friendships. You really have to choose to be in them. And they're very easy to come and go, right? Like, friends can not talk for a period of time and still be friends, It's much more difficult than romantic relationships and things like that. But you really have to choose to be in them. And you feel like you're really choosing this friendship.

Starting point is 00:42:09 And it feels like she's really not. Not. You know? She's really not. And I don't know at what point I should reach out again and be like, hey, why is it not the same? Also, so this new relationship she's been in, it's been about two years. and when they first got together, she had never introduced me to any of her boyfriends. She didn't want me anywhere near them, any of the guys she's dating at all.

Starting point is 00:42:36 And then out of nowhere, she is planning double dates with this new guy that she's known for literally a month. And she's like, you and your boyfriend, like, come, we're going to do this. We're going to do that. And I was like, oh, my gosh, hold on. Wait a minute. You have a boyfriend. What? Like, what's going on?

Starting point is 00:42:51 And she was like shoving him down my throat so much that to the point where I was like uncomfortable by it. And then eventually she completely stopped, stopped talking about him, but they were still together. And it was weird. And I saw her like less and less and less. And another layer of this is that she also doesn't have a job right now. And she hasn't worked in probably since they got together. And that's her choice. Like she's not wanting to work at the moment.

Starting point is 00:43:13 And she's able to not work because he's choosing to somewhat support her and her family is pretty like well off, I would say, so they can support her in those ways. But she, I almost feel like she feels like she owes him, like time and. effort because they are living under the same roof and he pays. And he's not like loaded, by the way. He's not like someone who has a lot of money and can like take care of both of them comfortably. He definitely has to like, he picked up a second job and does little things on the side to help them have their means.

Starting point is 00:43:42 And I think she almost, I feel like subconsciously she feels like she owes it to them to him. And I've asked for that before. I said, do you feel like you have to like spend so much time with him because he pays for things? Like, like, you know, and maybe I was a little harsh. I was like, you know, maybe, like, don't you think, like, at this point, you should, like, probably get a job because, like, don't you feel guilty? She's complaining like, oh, my gosh, I think he's, you know, struggling for money, he's trapped for cash this month.

Starting point is 00:44:05 And I'm like, just, like, get a job. Also, like, I don't know what to tell you. And it's just, like, becoming weird. And I think maybe with her, some sort of guilt. Are you critiquing her a lot? I really try not to. I really try not to. I promise you.

Starting point is 00:44:21 I come from a place of love. I don't, I don't doubt that you do, but I have. joke on this show before where I've never I've I've I've I've I've I've I've I've stood up in a lot of weddings a lot I've never been a best man it's not like a thing I think much about but well you know there was one time where I was like that's kind of weird you know and I kind of like had this like epiphany or realization or self-awareness like I you know I'm comfortable with who I am I know who I There's a reason why I do this show. Like, I know when people call it and they're expecting the tough love or the direct advice,

Starting point is 00:44:55 and it's just like, I'm just going to cut through it. I've had to learn how to be empathetic over the years and deliver my message sometimes. And yeah, I've always been the friend who has a strong opinion. And I've always been the friend that people go to advice. So, like, I often, having this realization I describe myself as like, the friend you, every once in a while really need, but I'm not always the friend that you want. I'm not always like the friend who is like you go, you call for the good time. And I feel like the best man is always like that person who's always just there to bring up. It's just the fun person. I'm come sometimes the Debbie Downer. I'm always like, well, I don't know if you should do that. You know, like I'm sometimes my opinion's not welcomed, you know, or wanted. And sometimes I've had to learn over the years that, you know, I can be a judgmental person. And even when I'm not sharing my opinion, it's sometimes all over my face, you know, And sometimes I have to have the self-awareness that like my energy or my presence might not even be wanted in a situation.

Starting point is 00:45:55 Which is why I feel like even in all these close male relationships that I've had where they're like, hey, I want you to be a part of my wedding. And I've even had some of my friends been like, I wish I would have had you be my best man or whatever. But like in the time, there was always like that other buddy who was like the fun buddy and I was like the maybe more critical. And so when you say I try not to, there's an acknowledgement that well, whether you try. try, you are still that friend. And it wouldn't shock me if like part of the reason why she doesn't want to hear it. She knows you well enough now to know, she doesn't have to hear your opinion to know what your opinion probably is. And maybe just doesn't want to feel judged by your presence and doesn't want to be criticized and doesn't want to be coached and doesn't want to be mentored.

Starting point is 00:46:42 Sometimes she just wants a friend to say yes. You know what I'm saying? Like that's why, you know, when I was describing why I wasn't the best man or I was like, you know, like I didn't talk to my friends about this. This was something I just thought internally. But that's kind of my point. Like there was always maybe the friend that like they would call up, you know, in your situation you're describing, I might have been a bit of a friend who'd been like,

Starting point is 00:47:03 are we sure that's the right decision? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And another friend be like, yeah, let's double date. Great. Let's go have fun. I got no questions. I got no expectations. You know,

Starting point is 00:47:12 I'm just here for the good time. You're on the double date and she sees you across. the table, feeling judged, feeling analyzed. There was a friend. Actually, I was I was Tephy. You know, Telo Tephy? You know, she is? She's an influencer. She's been on the show before. I don't know. Funny, potentially. Funny dynamic woman. Very smart, very intuitive. We were at a party. And I don't know. We were talking about something. And I made a comment being like, you know, sometimes I've heard I've been intimidating to people. And she goes, yeah, because you're constantly analyzing them. And it was like, it was a, you know, Teffi is a lot like me where she,

Starting point is 00:47:48 she's very bold and she has strong opinions and she says them. And like in a lot of ways, I vibe with her in that regard. And she was right. I know, I mean, when I meet people, I'm, I'm, I have that introverted side. I'm, I'm always, I'm an analytical person. I just, I analyze things. And people see it on my face. And to a point where I, I haven't always been aware of that. And when I, you know, when you meet people, you can tell people are looking you up and down and kind of like looking at your outfit. And I have a sometimes I wear that on my face. I wear that on my and it can make people feel a certain way. I've had to learn over a time. You know, it was like, I remember when Tuffy said it to me. I was like, damn, call me out.

Starting point is 00:48:27 You know, like, damn, you know. This is all to say like that might be playing a role in why your friend feels the way she does around you. Yeah. I mean, I would hope not. But the thing is, I think also the reason we were so close in the beginning is because we were there for each other so much in between all of our life happenings that like I honestly would never judge her. She would tell me, she's told me the craziest things and I've helped to do the craziest things in the past, whatever. But I also do feel like we got to a point where she was complaining about so many things that were easily, maybe not even easily, but like that were fixable because, you know, she was complaining about, you know, oh, I wish I was working again.

Starting point is 00:49:07 It's like, okay, well, maybe try to find something that works for you. And eventually when these complaints just build up to all the things that have been over and over and over again, I was like, well, at some point, you're going to have to take control and, like, figure it out. Like, I don't know what else to tell you because you're complaining about the same things over and over again. And like, yeah, maybe you don't want to hear about like, maybe you should do some of those things. Is she really expecting you always to solve your problems or is she just sometimes venting to you about the problems?

Starting point is 00:49:33 And then you take that as a green light to mentor her, to give her advice to help solve her problems? I don't think so. I feel like it could be half and half. I feel like maybe honestly, probably the last few months to a year. Maybe it was more of, it was maybe giving like mentorship a little bit. But like I feel like before that, I would just be a listening ear and I feel like I would just hear her out because like I get it. Not everyone's going to have a perfect situation or not something that's going to be concrete. Like I understand that and I'm trying to be empathetic. But I think that mixed in with like her complaints of whatever mixed in with her missing a lot of like big life events for me, like, pissed me off. And I was like mixed with like the sad hurt,

Starting point is 00:50:14 like whatever. And I've expressed to her before. Like I, we had a dinner like right after her weird behavior started becoming weirder. And I was like sitting at the restaurant, this damn sushi restaurant, like bawling crying. It was craziest thing. Trying to explain to her how I felt that I felt neglected and that she is like lying to me about certain things. And I found out later. It was just like weird things. And she was there like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I don't want you. to feel this way, but like, you know, like, sorry. And I was like, sitting there, like, wiping my tears and nothing really changed. It was very bizarre. I can't decide if I'm like, how do I want to, do I want to just hover in this point, like, in my life, like, more of an acquaintance?

Starting point is 00:50:53 Or do I try to, like, rebuild what we have? Because I feel like it's never going to be the same. Like, I'm kind of aware of that, but also I'm like, why can't to be the same? Like, I know why, but like, why, you know? I had a similar conversation with someone the other day, but it's, It's really just about your, you have a certain set of expectations about this friendship. She is not meeting those expectations. And that is why you feel the way you do. That's what it comes down to. You know, it's like any, any relationship.

Starting point is 00:51:21 You have expectations. I used to say this scenario when we were courting or whatever. But I was like, it's not really a relationship until we have expectations of each other. Because that was more at the, we were just at the, we were this very casual relationship. And we weren't, we were very open about dating other people. and there was really no expectations. And that allowed us early on to not feel stressed out about things or whatever. But yeah, relationships really start when there's expectations, any relationship, romantic, friendships, you know, when you expect something of someone, it becomes more meaningful in a way.

Starting point is 00:51:58 Otherwise, you're just like, I don't know, I'm indifferent. Like, they're a casual. Like, I don't know, they come and go. I don't really expect anything from them. It's interesting to me that you're just all in or all out. And I sense that that's that's that's kind of you. That's your personality. Man, I try not to me.

Starting point is 00:52:13 But like, for me, it's like, yeah, give me what you got. And if you don't got it, then I don't know. Like, I feel like I just, I can't. And I think that's more of a you thing than a her thing. Hate to see it. You're probably right. And the thing is, too, is I have a lot of other friends in my life that are very close to me and people I consider best friends as well.

Starting point is 00:52:33 But what's interesting about this, and I realize this about my. But what's interesting is that I have lesser expectations of them than I do with her, that I feel, and I feel closer with them now, obviously, that our friendship has been a little bit more distant. But I don't expect the same things from them that I do from her because I think not only do we have so much history, but I feel like the type of history that we have, it feels, I don't say it's more valuable to me than my other friendships, but it feels like heavier. And it feels like I.

Starting point is 00:53:01 With being kind of by her side early in her transition. do you feel a sense of, I don't know, like, yeah, I was really there for you when other people weren't. Almost. And that back to expectations made you develop an expectation of like, I think it kind of she owed you a little bit. I mean, like, potentially, I, my perspective on it is like, yes, I think it's that. But it also is, if you're saying, I mean, tidbit, she doesn't have any other friends.

Starting point is 00:53:32 And I'm not saying that I have to be the end all, be all, but that's also her choice. but, you know, she's had potential, like, coworkers and things in the past that she could build a bunch of list. She just hasn't. But what I'm saying is, I feel like if she is the one that was telling me, you've helped me so much, you are like, you know, like a sister to me, like all these things, wouldn't you as that person want to uphold a friendship to the level that you, I don't know, that you're like talking it up to be like, I don't want to sound arrogant, but like it's just like, that's how I feel. And I think that it's like so many, like, emotions mixed up in it, that that's how, I feel like part of it's like yes I was there for you I feel like you should be there for me too

Starting point is 00:54:10 and the other part of it is like shouldn't you want to be like if I was a person that helped you through a lot of things even recently that was like eight years ago but even recently you know I feel like there should be some sort of on her from her side wanting to still maintain a level of closeness that we have always had that I don't think is being met and I don't know why I can't let it go or grow with the friendship or have it from a distance. Like I can't, like, I'm holding onto it like a damn Rottweiler. Like, I can't let it go. And I don't know why I can't let it go.

Starting point is 00:54:42 And I just, like, feel sad about it above all. But I just don't know how to go about it. This is all centered around your expectations of the situation from your point of view. And her point of view clearly is different. And I can only imagine how different it is. I don't know what it's like to be in her situation. don't know what it's like to feel like I'm in the wrong body and what that might feel like and transitioning and and you know obviously the world isn't is loving and accepting it from a

Starting point is 00:55:15 lot of people as we'd like it to be and what that might feel like for her and et cetera, et cetera. Like I imagine you felt good about yourself when you met this friend and she opened up to you and you were accepting of her and especially when we're surrounded by people who aren't you know a lot of bigotry and a lot of hatred and it's just the way you talk i really think the i think this is a lot about you and less about her hey that um you have the right to feel how you feel but i again you're only thinking about this from your lens and it doesn't make you wrong, but when it comes to a friendship, especially in her situation, I think a lot of empathy in her situation would towards her situation go a long way. It doesn't mean you can't be

Starting point is 00:56:06 disappointed and frustrated with it. It just means, again, if this person really is special to you, your comment that she doesn't have a lot of friends. I hate that you said that. I hate that you think about that because there's a sense of like you're calling her out a little bit. And again, like it's that you're judging her when you say that and you have opinions in terms of why she doesn't have friends and then in that statement it sounds to me like I've accepted you for all your flaws and I've put up with your bullshit and some of your lies and I'm still willing to be your friend and and yet you have you you treat our friendship so casually and you kind of owe me in a way and I and I think you've built up this resentment and frustration and these

Starting point is 00:56:53 expectations that really have grown into this hurt that you feel. You know, you mentioned that you were crying. And these are all valid, but it doesn't necessarily make you right. Yeah. And I mean, the reason I said that too is because she would always point it out. And she, I think there had been, there had been times in the last couple of years, too, where I had to attend, I don't know, events, random things for my other friends or work or like whatever. And she would only ask me to hang out if her boyfriend was not busy. And so she would have these like small pockets of time where she'd be like, oh, do you want to grab lunch?

Starting point is 00:57:28 I can only be there for 45 minutes? But like, can we go? And I'd be like, well, no, sorry. Like, we're going to my friend's baby shower or like, whatever. And she'd be like, oh, well, that's what happens when you don't have any friends or like, that's what happens when you're my only friend. And I'd be like, okay. That's frustrating.

Starting point is 00:57:41 Yeah. And it's like, I'm just like, in those moments, I know she wasn't saying it to like make me feel bad. She was just like saying out loud. Yeah, she was. maybe she was. And those things, and I wouldn't say anything. I'd just be like, well, what the hell? Like, I have my own life also and, like, I'm choosing to do these things. And by the way, there's been a lot of mutual parties and things and whatever that she's been invited to from all my other friends that know her

Starting point is 00:58:04 and work and whatever. And she, like, chooses not to go. And if she is around my friends in certain settings, like, again, housewarming parties, like, whatever you want to call it. She ends up like, it's weird. Like, she's ended up bad-mouthing a lot of my friends in front of their faces for no reason. If she's She has a couple drinks in her. She'll kind of just like project her insecurities out when she's around my other friends. And I'm not trying to say that like, how dare you? But like it's weird behavior. And I think there's just a lot of little things that have built up that I'm like,

Starting point is 00:58:32 we need to sit down and talk about these things. And I've tried and she's so dismissive about it. And I want to bring it up in a way to tell her like, I know you are trying to avoid this conversation. But this is a conversation that I feel like we need to have because we need to make a decision of like one, what our expectations are for our friendship and two, like, it's okay if you don't, you have to be up my ass every two seconds. I understand that. We both have a life. But I also want you to be the friend that I thought we would both be for each other for, you know,

Starting point is 00:59:01 a really long time. And her, she's had a lot of questionable behavior in the past that I've really just let her, it's her own shit. I don't want to really, I don't want to be that person because I do love her to death. And like, I do see her as like someone that's like a family member to me. and like she's like like my kin essentially. But I also want to tell her like a lot of the shit that you've done has been really disrespectful to me and the people around me. But also like why are you like what can we do next? And like what how can we move forward or like do we not?

Starting point is 00:59:35 Like I don't know if she is just in a place where like I also hope she's okay. Like I hope she's like not going through something in her own relationship that she doesn't feel comfortable enough to tell me that I can like maybe help her with or even something that she is afraid to, I don't know, like, I don't know what's going, I haven't talked to her. So it's like, I need to like, and if we talked in the last few months, it was like very close in passing. And we live in the same city and, you know, there's lots to do and lots of things. And we live so close together that, like, why, like, why are we seeing each other? And so I want to, like, have a potential in person conversation based on, I don't know and be like, what are our options here?

Starting point is 01:00:10 Are you okay? Number one. Number two, love you, but like, three, I'm mad and sad. Well, I would focus more on being sad than mad. Got it. Because I am. I'm very sad. Like, I'm not even that mad, to be totally honest.

Starting point is 01:00:23 I'm just, like, hurt and sad. Yeah. Well, sad, sadness is going to get you further than madness, I suppose, with her, you know. I mean, you have to be frustrated. But this show ultimately is just centered around, whether it's friendship problems or, you know, it's just like, I think I'm good at helping people control what they can control because there's so much in this world where it comes to relationships. is outside of your control.

Starting point is 01:00:46 I'm trying to help you frame your expectations so that you feel less sad and less disappointed because you can't dictate how your friend's going to act. Yeah. And I think the way, you know, you're talking, well, I want to do this and I want to do that. And I don't have the perfect answer for you how you should go about this.

Starting point is 01:01:02 But I do feel strongly that like you need to figure out what your expectations are and how you might be able to change your expectations. because I don't think sitting your friend down and just dumping all this on her and like negotiating how you guys move forward and then being like, all right, well, if you can do this, this, this, and that way it can be friends

Starting point is 01:01:25 and I'm going to hold you to this and blah. It might be just a lot. And again, from her point of view, she might not be, she probably isn't feeling what you're feeling, clearly. Put it this way. I think instead of doing that, I mean, step one, I think maybe sending her a text

Starting point is 01:01:40 it might say something like, I love you and I miss you. I hope you're doing well. Make it easier for her. You know, granted, and simultaneously, you have to send that without expectations. You know, you have to send that because, again, I get the sense that you're someone,

Starting point is 01:01:54 if you were to do that, you already have a very specific expectation of how she should respond to that. And then as soon as she doesn't, you get activated, you get triggered, you get in your head, and you snowball what that means in terms of why she didn't meet your expectations.

Starting point is 01:02:11 and I think that's the part you need to try to work on and try to control. Yeah. And I was like thinking about it too. And the last message that we sent with each other and in our text message read was from me. And in my head, I'm like, well, damn, I'm the last one that said something. So I don't want to. It's all silly. You said a few minutes ago, this is this person's like family.

Starting point is 01:02:32 She's like kin. Yeah. You know, this call started with like, should I just be done with this friendship? She's your family. She's your sister. And I have 10 siblings. I don't talk to them every day. Some I like more than others.

Starting point is 01:02:45 I love them all. Like sometimes they go months without engaging with them. They're still my blood. They're still my family. I would still drop anything if they really needed my help to help them. And I think if you really feel that way about her that she really is family, you're going to, you know, then that should change your calculus how you view this situation. And you should have a little bit more long-term grace and know that in the middle it might be frustrated and disappointment. and you might be very sad and you might miss her.

Starting point is 01:03:11 But this idea of like being done with her because you can't handle your expectations being disappointed, I think is a mistake by you. Yeah. And I, it's funny because I do grapple with that. I'm always like thinking to myself, like, why is it that I can't, why do I have to put these types of expectations with her versus my other friends who I feel just as close with, maybe even closer now that our friendship is like, you know, a little bit more dissipated.

Starting point is 01:03:37 But like, I need to like get over. myself a little bit and just be like calm about it because I do like obviously I miss her and I want her in my life but I'm like I need to like figure out how to like not be mad about it and I guess express my sadness to her in more of a casual way than being so harsh about it because I really don't want to be like a harsh and mean and like aggressive in my approach I really don't want to be but like I have it so built up that I feel like if I do talk to her at this moment it would be like very very that it would be kind of aggressive and I don't want to come off that way because I don't want to like scare her away and be like down this is the reason why I don't talk to this bitch like I don't

Starting point is 01:04:16 want her to think that you know yeah so let me ask you this in this friendship over the course of the years sounds like there have been periods where you've really been there for her has she ever been the friend and I don't mean this is like a good or a bad way but just like what the dynamic your relationship has she ever really been the friend that you are going to for counsel like when you are confused, I mean, you need help, or are there other people in your life that you go to? Because honestly, she's got so much going on. She's never really been the person you've counted on for that type of stuff. I think in the beginning of our friendship, I did. Like, and I think the first, like, probably half. Like, let's say the most past five years. Probably not. Okay. Because I don't think, because I don't think she responds to me the way I would. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:00 That's what I suspected. And I'm kind of glad to hear that. And I reason I say that is because this is not like, oh, my God, she used to, she was my rock, she was my support system. This was the person I'd go to for problems and now I don't have that person in my life. That's not your situation. You're not missing out on that. And I think that's, no. I think that's kind of telling, right? Because like, you're not losing that. So what are you losing? You're losing this person that you were used to being their rock. You were used to being their support system. You were used to being the person they needed. And it feels like she doesn't need you as much anymore. And that probably hurts. I mean, yeah, and she is someone like, you know when you have a friend or I guess you can say this in a relationship too, like a relationship soulmate, but a friendship soulmate where like just everything clicks and you just have the most wonderful time hanging out and you have so much in God.

Starting point is 01:05:49 Like everything like you don't even have to speak to like talk to that person, right? Like that's the kind of connection we had. So it's like that is also what I miss. Not to say that I can't get that. I mean, we have different friends for reasons that they all fill different cups. but she was like the one person that the entire cup was always full, right? So it's like I do miss that connection. What do you mean the entire cup was always full?

Starting point is 01:06:09 I feel like in our friendships, we in life, we, I don't know, have different friends for different things. Not all the time, but I think that certain friends you would go to for maybe specific advice, you would go to a different one for something else. Like I don't know, like little things. But I feel like she had every quality in a friend that I loved and I feel like vice versa. So I just like measure a connection, really. like our, just our friendship, literally. Like, I miss, like the being around each other, having to, I mean, we like all the same

Starting point is 01:06:36 things. Like, it's fun to, like, just be around someone that you love and that you can relate to on literally every aspect, whether it's, like, artistically or creatively or professionally, like all those things. And it's like her and I were in the same field for such a long time that she gets what I go through, like, with my current job, which I love, by the way, but, like, little things that she, only she could relate to that my other friends don't relate to, like, things like that.

Starting point is 01:06:57 So it's like, I miss it, you know? So it's like, I want that. as well. You missed the quality time. Yeah. That's my love language, is quality time in, in this life with whoever it is. But I miss it. So it's like I. So there you go. I mean that, so if you were to communicate her anything other than setting that text, if you were to ever sit down and have a cup of coffee with this friend, that's all I would say to her. Listen, you know me. You know that quality time is my love language and I miss our quality time. That's it. That's way more digestible to hear from someone, you know, as opposed to you did this and you're not doing that and blah, blah, blah,

Starting point is 01:07:35 and I'm angry and blah, blah, blah. It's this one like, I miss our quality time. And I know you have a lot going on and I know you want to be in this relationship. And she's investing a disproportionate amount of time in this relationship because she's, and probably takes your friendship for granted because you've always been there. And again, like, you're just going to get a lot further of this friendship if you really try to focus on empathy and putting yourself in her shoes. and it might require you to do more the heavy lifting in this relationship,

Starting point is 01:08:02 and that might be the cross you bear. And if you truly love this person, and it might be something you have to accept, not accept with like a, like you shouldn't feel proud of yourself for it in a way. You know what I'm saying? Like you don't accept, like, well, I'm the bigger person here. It's just like, this is the relationship.

Starting point is 01:08:19 This is, this is the friend. This is how she entered into my life. And I love this person so much. It just is what it is. And I'm just going to let that go. And I'm going to accept that. and I'm not going to like pat myself on the back for it. It just is what it is.

Starting point is 01:08:32 And if I want to maintain this friendship, because not every friendship is perfect, I just have to accept that. And every once in a while, I might have to nudge her and remind her that I missed the quality time. While simultaneously telling yourself that like, we're not kids anymore. It's not our friendship is different.

Starting point is 01:08:48 That was 10 years ago. I have my life. I have my relationship. We're all adults. Now we have a lot of things going on. My best friends that I spent every waking moment with. We text every once in a while. And I think, again, the best way to communicate with her is just she knows you.

Starting point is 01:09:06 And it's way more digestible to just say, I miss our quality time. And I just wish I could have a little bit more of that quality time with you. And then some of those other moments, if you can get back to the quality time, and the next time you experience her talking shit in a weird way about your friends after she has a few drinks, you can just try to stop doing that? Like, I don't know why you do that. it's a little hurtful to me and my friends. And I would,

Starting point is 01:09:30 don't deal with that like at the end. And by the way, you also do that, you know, like, it's just like, don't, you know,

Starting point is 01:09:37 it's pick your battles. But if you really, truly feel like this person is family, then treat them like family. And get it out of your head that you're going to fire her as a friend. It's just different. There's a different stage in this friendship. She's only 36.

Starting point is 01:09:53 You're only 31. You got a long life ahead of you both. and what matters more that you're both in each other's lives when you're 60. And that's a lot of years. And there's going to be ups and downs and family's family, you know. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's what I want to make it about.

Starting point is 01:10:11 Because all other little things, like, clearly I've gotten over them, not gotten over them fully, but like I've let them go because I'm still willing to obviously be her friend and I was her friend. I just want to make it about the love and the friendship that I have for her. And come at it from that angle and I'm hoping she's like, Oh my God, me too. And I'm like, great, happy family. Yeah, but who knows what, who knows what she will say?

Starting point is 01:10:33 And I think that's the important part is you really have to like get, you have to get out of your head and these expectations that you have. And you, as soon as you do something, you have immediate expectations. You have to try to let that go. And you just have to roll with the punches of this relationship and accept that you are going to be frustrated at times and hurt and sad at times. And just let her come around. I needed to hear that because I feel like I was like thinking to myself,

Starting point is 01:11:01 I need to let it go a little bit while also just be accepting. But I just was like, no, I don't want to. But I need to because it doesn't make sense that I feel that way about her than I do about my other friends that I feel like I said, like are just as close, maybe even closer. And then stop playing games with yourself with is like, well, I don't know. I haven't talked in a month and a half of what's going on. I don't even know if she's okay. I mean, you know she's probably okay, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:11:27 Right? And like, it's stuff like that where you're kind of, you're just making, you're catastrophizing things that you know you probably don't need to catastrophize about things. And that just probably comes from your hurt and your frustrations. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It does.

Starting point is 01:11:40 But yeah, just try to try not to do that. I really think next step is this send her a text that says, I love you and I miss you. And I'd love to get together sometime. Put it out there. Just, you know, stop waiting on her. You know, the thing where, oh, I'm not going to do anything. And if she loves me, she'll reach out to me,

Starting point is 01:11:56 and if I'm really important to her, she'll do this. And it says if I, if she cares, you, you are in your head, like, making a list of all the things she needs to do to prove to you that you matter. And you got to stop doing that. You have to know in your heart. Like, again, if she is like your sister, I don't sit there and do that with my family members. Yeah. You know, it's just like, you'll always be my sister. I mean, whether I like it or not or my brother.

Starting point is 01:12:22 And I don't want to talk to you right now. And I'm really mad and I'm hurt. but it's, it's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I'm like nervous. Like, I don't know why. I'm like, I'm going to send this text message and I'm going to like, I don't know what I'm expecting. You're nervous because you're, you know deep down, you're going to have expectations and that she's not going to meet them.

Starting point is 01:12:44 Yeah. I mean, yeah, that is just the reality of that. But that's okay, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I imagine if you send a text, this I miss you and I love you and she doesn't respond to that or say something, as simply as I miss and love you too. That would be very hurtful. Yeah, my little heart would be broken, but it's funny. Do you really think that she wouldn't? I don't know. I really don't know. I feel like it's changed so much, especially in the last six months to a year that I don't know that. She even said she potentially was moving away from the city that we live in with her boyfriend,

Starting point is 01:13:15 potentially, and like she didn't give me more details on that. How did you respond to that? I said, oh my gosh, like, I would never see you. Like, that's so sad. I feel like I barely see you now, but then I wouldn't see you at all. And all she said was, yeah, I'm going to really miss the city we're in. I love the city and would be sad to leave it. I was like, okay. What about me though? That's crazy.

Starting point is 01:13:35 Like, hello, I'm right here. So, like, that sucked. And that was, like, the last time we talked. So I was a little bit pressed about that response, not going to lie. But try not to take it personal, but it definitely was a little personal. So I hear you. I hear you. I mean, I was like, oh, what if I said this text?

Starting point is 01:13:53 And she was like, by the way. I've moved to Slovenia and I'm not coming back. I'm going to be like, okay, well, that's sad. But I could still have a relationship with Slovenia if I wanted to, I guess. Is she might move to Slovenia or you just randomly? No, I'm bullshit. She wants to move to something up the coast. You're an hour and a half away.

Starting point is 01:14:12 You know, just not. I'm nitpicking here, but like next time again, it's just all about how we deliver things. You didn't like her response. She probably didn't like yours, which is kind of like, I'll never see you again. You made it about you. she made it about her. She probably wanted to hear, oh, that's exciting. Like, I'm really happy for you.

Starting point is 01:14:29 And, like, maybe she wanted your support. And she didn't feel like she had it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe she did. And I read it wrong because the first thing I thought was like, oh, my gosh, that's crazy. Like, wow, you're moving.

Starting point is 01:14:40 Like, I didn't think, because it didn't come in like a positive light. So I didn't respond that way either because she was like, oh, like, oh, like, rent's so expensive. And we can't, like, afford it here. So we need to leave. It was kind of like that. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, whoa, that's crazy.

Starting point is 01:14:52 That sucks. I'm not going to see it. Like, I responded that way because maybe she interpreted it in a negative way because I didn't mean it that way, but that's just, you know, how I responded. And it definitely feels like you've obviously built up this resentment and animosity and feelings. She maybe feels like she can't do anything right with you or you're always disappointing. She's always disappointing you. Yeah, it could be that.

Starting point is 01:15:13 I mean, she is. Sure. When she feels that and she doesn't know how to handle it and she does, you know, she just. Yeah. You guys have to get back to those days. it's just fun again. But right now, you go into these situations with so much frustration and expectations of her and then she never meets them.

Starting point is 01:15:31 And I'm pissed. You're pissed and it's like a weird vibe and she's like, okay. Yeah, she's probably over the vibe. I mean, she's always said she's like very big on like people's energies and I mean, I agree with her. I'm the same way. But I mean, I might be just overbearing in certain ways. I mean, I guess she's going through a lot.

Starting point is 01:15:48 So I could be a little bit more empathetic with her. And maybe I don't even know the extent of the things that she's, She might even be going through at this very moment. So text her. I miss you. I love you. We'd love to see you. Can we get together soon?

Starting point is 01:16:00 Keep it real simple. And then when you do get together, try to just have fun with her. Try not to maybe even have a conversation. And maybe you could throw in. I miss our quality time. But when you say that, when you say that, you also have to say. But I also, I know you're happy with your boyfriend and try to be happy for her, even if it's not getting what you want.

Starting point is 01:16:22 Yeah, because I don't be happy. doing that like ever. I'm never I don't say that to be honest like I'm not like oh my gosh hope you're well she got she must feel that I mean he I don't know that that's pretty common people get into serious whether the relationships right or not they dive into relationships they get you know they get caught up in it they invest all their time and and if they feel like they don't have their support of their friends they distance themselves from their friends it's just it's yeah it's a tale is all this time she also stopped she like cut us off pretty cold like cold like turkey as far as like wanting to hang out with him all the time and do a double day

Starting point is 01:16:57 situation all the time very quickly because she did tell me like a little tidbit things about him like oh he said this or wanted me to do this or suggested this and I'd be like wait what he said what like I was very like because some of them were like very like I want to say red flag things because it wasn't it was like giving pink bag a little bit and I'd be like oh that's weird and I started like reacting to it so I think she tried to like completely remove that part of her life when it came to me like separate them maybe a little bit because I'm not very like like, oh, he's great. Happy for you guys.

Starting point is 01:17:25 Like, I don't know, because he's like a little bit of a freak from what I can tell. I don't know. I don't know. That's dramatic. But I think you got to try to be happy for her and get out of her business a little bit and stop trying to be her mentor or her parent or her. Yeah. There's a little bit of that. Get back to being friends.

Starting point is 01:17:41 You're so right. You're right. You're right. I should. You know, I hate to say this, but do you want to be right or do you want to be happy, you know? Oh, my God. You know what? I need to buy the sweatshirt so I can remind my.

Starting point is 01:17:52 self every day. There you go. Yeah. There you go. Valphalve.com. I hope. Was this helpful? I don't know. I don't. Yeah, it was. It was. It was. I appreciate the talking through it because I haven't had someone like say that to me out loud. I mean, obviously I've told my boyfriend about it and he's like, she's black, let her go. And I'm like, well, I don't want to. So it's, I, you know, needed to hear it a little bit from someone. So I appreciate it. Yeah. If it's really important, you'll make it work. And it clearly is important to you. You just have to change your expectation. and yeah, think about the rest of your life, not the next six months.

Starting point is 01:18:27 You're right. And I will. And I'll probably hopefully send that text today if I can get over myself and the fear of it. It'll be okay. It'll be okay. I do think you need to get over yourself a little bit. Totally. I think you're very used to being right and I think you're probably right often and you know you are. And I think if someone who can relate to that feeling, you have to humble yourself a little bit and be okay to just be happy rather than being. right and just be thankful that this person's in your life, even if it's different. And you have to get better at being happy for her without judging her. And I think you do that way. I think you judge, you make her feel judged. Probably. I'm open to being humbled. Like I need it a little bit. Like I've

Starting point is 01:19:09 definitely open to it. And hopefully this will catapult me into that. So, well, keep us posted. Okay. I definitely will. I'm scared, but I will. All right. It'll be okay. Just lead with love. I know it's vulnerable. I know it's scary, but it's the best way forward. Yeah, you're so right. Okay, well, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. I love the pod.

Starting point is 01:19:29 I appreciate you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for calling in. All right. Keep us posted. Of course. All right. I will.

Starting point is 01:19:34 Take care. Thanks. Bye-bye. Our favorite part of the holidays is spending time with our family from baking cookies, decorating the house, and walking around the neighborhood.

Starting point is 01:19:42 Everyone seems to be in the holiday spirit. And there's nothing that gets us in the spirit more than a Starbucks holiday beverage. Now that we have River, I'm really trying to create memories and traditions that she will carry on throughout her life and something that I'm really loving doing. We did it last year and obviously we're going to do it again this year. But it's going to Starbucks, getting a holiday drink and then driving through the neighborhoods

Starting point is 01:20:04 and looking at all the Christmas lights on all the houses and seeing all the houses decorated and like the blowups and everyone's front yard and like sipping on our warm, hot. I look forward to that. Holiday drink. Also back in my sales days when I worked from home, I'd always go to a Starbucks and work because I wanted to get out of the house. And definitely during the holiday season, I get my pepper, And you just kind of see people coming in, like different, you kind of feel the holiday

Starting point is 01:20:26 energy with people coming in during Christmas time. It was always really enjoyable. I really had to get out of the house when I was stuck at home working. Well, the peppermint mocha is a Starbucks signature espresso combined with steam mount, mocha sauce and peppermint flavored syrup is topped with whipped cream and dark chocolate curls. What more could you ask for? Delicious. It's honestly how I learned to drink coffee.

Starting point is 01:20:47 This is my first Starbucks drink ever. A peppermint mocha. Yeah. We used to when I worked there, we would put, um, Restredo shots in it. And we would like mod it a bit. Well, it was a white chocolate mocha. And then during the holiday season, I transferred over to the peppermint.

Starting point is 01:21:00 There's no better feeling than when the cups turn red at Starbucks. I know. That is so true. Another favorite of mine is the caramel brulee latte. That one is so good. Yeah. That's my favorite. The caramel brulee is Starbucks signature espresso.

Starting point is 01:21:14 It's topped with whipped cream and caramel brulee topping. Rediscovered the little moments of joy that make the holidays brighter at Starbucks. Step into the warmth. of the season with a visit to Starbucks, where every sip makes the holidays feel a little bit more special. Well, don't forget, together is the best place to be. Connect over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. How's it going? Good. How are you? Good. What's your name? My name is Jess. I'm 34, and I'm wondering if I should break up with my boyfriend if he's never

Starting point is 01:21:41 thought about having kids until me. Okay. Is that it? Okay. So how long have you been with your boyfriend? Okay. Yeah, I can give you a lot more context to all of this. We have been together. for three months. It's been long distance since the beginning. He doesn't live in the same state as me. He lives in Oklahoma. I live in San Diego. So not close, but not terrible. I know you've done long distance. So you kind of relate. And so he still has family and friends that live where I live. So he visits often. And we met through mutual friends. His best friend and my best friend are getting married. So we went and hung out one day, hit it off. And he was. really liked me and he like we were vibing and my friend kind of was like she pulled me to the side

Starting point is 01:22:28 and was like he's a great guy I really like him I don't know if he wants the same things that you want for your future but you know keep hanging out with him and and ask those questions and I'm like okay cool totally get it thanks for the heads up she then went to him too and was like hey she wants a family she wants to settle down don't waste her time and he's like no I think it's great I think well she knows what she wants I really like her like her I like the vibes. So we went on a first date. We went really well, really liked him, good conversations, good energy. It went great. He went back home. We continued to get to know each other via phone, via FaceTime. It really seemed like he was making an effort to get to know me long distance,

Starting point is 01:23:09 which is nice. I've never done long distance. He has. His last relationship was six years long distance. So it did feel like he kind of knew how to navigate how to do this more than me. So I was kind of leaning on him for that. He then, like a couple weeks after we were talking, he invited me. He had an extra ticket to a festival. And he invited me to come. It was a quick flight to San Francisco for me. And he made it really comfortable because we didn't really know each other that well yet, but he made it comfortable enough where he's like, I have a big Airbnb. I can sleep on the couch. There's no pressure. I just want to get to know you. And I'm like, cool, that sounds fun. Let's do it. The weekend was a blast. Had a great time. Then a couple weeks after that, he had to go back

Starting point is 01:23:51 to San Francisco for a wedding. And he was like, maybe I can change my flight and fly to San Diego and we can spend a little bit more time together, spend a couple days, and then I'll go home. I'm like, cool, that feels good, still getting to see you like every couple weeks. Then we make a plan and we're like talking every night, three hours a night or more, just about anything, everything, whatever. We talked a lot about his ex, too, which I should mention. He broke up with her like four months before he met me, but I guess it was Rocky for a year before that. But he was just venting. I guess it was like not a great break breakup on his end. So he was like, you know, venting to me about like some stuff, which is, which is fine. I'll give him the grace to like,

Starting point is 01:24:31 you can vent to me like it's your last relationship. So then we flew to Dallas and, or made a plan to fly to Dallas together. It's a, it's a three hour drive for him, three hour flight for me. So it was a good like halfway point. And we spent the weekend together. That went well. Everything's great. So we're like seeing each other every three weeks at this point, which feels good. Then Halloween comes around. He has another extra ticket to a show. He's a big music guy. Has an extra ticket to a show invites me to come. I go. It's a lot of fun. And then the conversation of kids comes up on the phone one night. We're talking about, we're talking about silly friends that kids are doing now. I was actually, we're talking about six, seven. And I was

Starting point is 01:25:13 explaining to him what it meant from actually your guys's podcast because you guys explained it to me. And he was like, that's ridiculous. Like, what a ridiculous trend. This is why I'm never having kids. And I was like, because kids are silly? Yeah. I was like, well, hold on. I was like, you definitely know my stance on kids.

Starting point is 01:25:34 It's a huge non-negotiable for me. And that's a problem if you're saying those words, like never having kids. Like, I was like dead stopped in my, like, track. Sure. I was like, this is a problem. And he was like, no, no, I was kidding. It's not really what I meant. But to be honest, yeah, I have reservations about having kids. And I know where you stand on it. So I am now starting to think about if I want kids because of you. His last relationship, she already had kids. She didn't want anymore. So he kind of was like on board with not having kids. So I was like, okay, that's cool if you still need time to think about it. Obviously, this is still new in our relationship. But if it's a no, I'm never having kids, I got to go. Like, I can't, it's, I can't waste my time.

Starting point is 01:26:24 And I'm not going to change your mind. I don't want to change your mind. It's something that I want you to decide for. So let me know if it's a hard no. And he's like, okay, no problem. Like, I just need more time. And, you know, we can sit down and, and I can show you my list of why kids make me nervous. And I said, okay.

Starting point is 01:26:43 So then we planned and then we kind of put a pin in that conversation. and then moved forward and we had other good conversations on the phone and then we plan to have Thanksgiving together. So he flew out for a week before Thanksgiving. We spent time together. We went to my families for Thanksgiving. It was great. I definitely weighed heavy in my mind, the kids' conversation because I just didn't know if he was ever going to get on board with it. And that made me a little nervous to continue. I also brought up like, hey, like what's our plan for like the following year like do we want to do new year together um and he's like oh well you know i kind of envisioned like yeah like we can do new year together but i kind of envisioned going to

Starting point is 01:27:26 columbia by the end of the year to scuba dive and he's like you can come with if you want and like i was like yeah so like don't love that saying i don't need you there but you're welcome to accompany me exactly and that's kind of like looking back on all of these trips they were kind of his trips and it was like come if you want and like obviously like they were already planned so it's like not like we could how did you respond to that i just was like okay like of course who's going to say no to going to columbia like if if i can make it work yeah i'll go there but like what are the flights like what are the logistics so he's like okay yeah like let's look up flights because he wasn't offering to buy me a flight so we were looking up flights and they were very

Starting point is 01:28:13 pricey. They were like $2,000. And I'm like, I don't have that kind of budget. So then we're not doing New Year's together. And like, that doesn't feel good for me. And like, what's our, like, what's our plan here? And I brought this to his attention. I'm like, look, we're in a relationship. I would want to do things. Kind of. What does kind of mean? I told him that it's a big deal for me because I haven't been in a relationship in eight years. I want to be asked. He said, said, okay, got it, no problem. Never asked me. Then just started casually saying, throwing around like when he was talking about me, saying girlfriend. And I was like, but you never asked me. Like, I asked you to. But you're just going around telling people that, I'm your girlfriend. Did you confront

Starting point is 01:28:59 him with that? Well, no, not really. The conversations was more like, hey, like, I need to know, like if we're official. And he's like, well, I'm not seeing anyone else. Like, obviously, if we're going to Thanksgiving together, like, it's official. I'm like, Okay. I don't know. I never openly said he was my boyfriend, never got to that. How old is he again? He's 34. So I should mention after Thanksgiving, the following night, we ended up having a huge blowout fight over the New Year's plan of him still saying he's going without me, that he really wants to do it, and I don't see a way I can do it. And then there's like no compromise to be made. I'm like, we can go somewhere for the weekend. Like I can't take two weeks off, but maybe we can go to New York.

Starting point is 01:29:45 Maybe we can go, you know, somewhere else together that's not out of the country. And he's like, well, I have the time off. Like, what am I supposed to do? Like, like, what am I supposed to do the rest of the time? And I'm like, hang out with me for a couple days? Like, what? And so then I was like, okay, then go be, go spend New Year's by yourself. And I'll go, like, start dating someone else.

Starting point is 01:30:07 Because if you don't want to be with me and we're not going to do the holiday together, than I want to move on with someone else because I'm looking to build a family with someone and build a relationship and be with them for the holidays. And then the kids thing got thrown into it. And it basically felt like he was saying, I don't have a timeline for kids. I don't know if I'm going to get on board with kids. My timeline is like maybe one day, 10 years from now, is. He said this. He didn't, I'm paraphrasing, he didn't say 10 years, but it definitely felt like he does have 10 more years. before he can have kids or think about having kids. He also said financially it makes him very nervous to have kids

Starting point is 01:30:49 because he doesn't want to not be able to provide for a family. And right now he's already financed himself out. He budgeted himself out to retire in a couple years, keep traveling, not be a slave to work. To retire in a couple years? Yeah. And he's like, and now if I have to factor in a family, that changes my entire plan.

Starting point is 01:31:10 and now I have to be a slave to work. And I'm trying to get on board with it. Okay. And he's like, and my job is kind of up in the air if it's going to make money or not and how it's going to do the following years. He also said, I don't really know how I'm supposed to, we're ever going to be able to live in the same place together because my work's moving east.

Starting point is 01:31:30 And I don't know if I, or he said, like, I can't work fully remotely. So I would either have to fly here and work during the week and only be in San Diego go on the weekends or be here once a month or whatever. I'm like, okay, so then why don't I come to Oklahoma? Check it out. See if I can see myself living there. If like that's what we're like eventually going to get to in a couple years and check it out. And he's like, well, I, Oklahoma's the worst. Like I would never wish that upon anyone. Like you don't want to come here. You would hate it. I'm like, well, then this seems like you're putting a lot of roadblocks when I'm trying to like make this work. What do you say?

Starting point is 01:32:08 And he's like, well, I just don't want you to like regret it. And, you know, it would make sense if I have kids to like be closer to my mom and be back home. And I'm like, okay. So then now are we living in San Diego or now are we not going to Oakland? I'm like, this, what? So, okay, you've only been named this guy for four months. I know. I know.

Starting point is 01:32:28 I know. And I think you have a lot of valid concerns. Yeah. I don't think the holidays. and making sure you spend all the holidays together this year is that big of a deal. And I feel like you're making the holidays like this very important benchmark to really prove this guy wants to have more of the quiet life and the family life. And this fear of him not wanting to actually have kids, you've decided that the holidays

Starting point is 01:33:03 really matter. You know, everyone, you know, I'm not saying, wouldn't be nice to spend New Year's Eve with him. When Natalie and I first started dating, again, it's not, fuck, fuck us. I mean, we're just one person. I'm not saying we set the standard. You know, Natalie and I were dating for nine months off and on. We weren't boyfriend and girlfriend.

Starting point is 01:33:21 We became boyfriend and girlfriend in July. She moved out in officially, like in November, December, like right after Thanksgiving. But, you know, it was also COVID. So there was weird to see that. But like, she always spent. Thanksgiving with her family and I wanted to be with my family. We put it this way. We were boyfriend and girlfriend. We were together. We lived together and we and our first holiday season together. She went to her family. I went to mine. It was like we were even living together,

Starting point is 01:33:52 you know, but it was still like, yeah, this is a new relationship. Maybe it's like we don't need to be like trading off like, you know, her family lived a different part of the country and then my family live. So it was like, we're a couple months in. That's just silly to like expect either of us to not spend the holidays with our families to prove to us that like, you know, that we're, now that we're dating, we have to be together. It was this more like, I don't know, we just started, it wasn't like, we just started dating our relationship as insane. We lived together, you know, it was, we were committed to making it work, but it was also like, well, listen, next year, you know, let's do that. But this year, let's not make either of us sad that we're not with our families.

Starting point is 01:34:37 Right. You know, even though we would have, I would have loved to have been with her for Thanksgiving and New Year's. I didn't spend either of those holidays with her. Okay. And it would have been nice. Yeah. You know, and I missed her and she missed me.

Starting point is 01:34:50 Yeah. But it was important for her to be with her family and it was important for me to be with my family. So I don't think him, I don't think being with him on New Year's is the end all be all. Okay. And if he has, and if he has this trip, he's had planned, you should be able to go do that trip, you know? Well, it's not really planned. It's like he just had it in his mind. Well, he wants to do it and he had a budget or whatever. I mean, it's kind of planned.

Starting point is 01:35:14 It's on itself. But then it's not just this trip. No, no, I know. I get it. But by it's, I'm just saying by itself, it's not that. Your thing is you're just like, what does it all mean for us? And I get it. Like, now they want to have kids. I want to have kids. We didn't have this big kind of like, I don't know. I'm living with this person who like doesn't, like this big thing that I definitely know I want. She doesn't want or vice versa. We didn't have that that you're dealing with. So I understand why it's in your head. And again, he is giving you a lot of red flags for you to validly be concerned. This is the fact that he wants to like, he's only 34 and he has. or has a plan to retire intent in a couple years and then travel the world, he sounds like a no man who wants to just kind of selfishly live life for himself. And he is entitled to do that. And if that's what he wants for himself and that's what makes him happy, he should go do that. But yeah,

Starting point is 01:36:03 that doesn't sound like a person who really wants to like, I don't look at it. Like, I mean, listen, I'm very fortunate to do what I do and I love what I do. And I, you know, but it is work, you know,

Starting point is 01:36:13 like, I would, we're at the lake right now. And I love that we're talking and I enjoy doing this. But like all things being equal, I'd love to be downstairs, like building a snowman with my daughter and, you know, whatever and just having fun. And I have to work. But I don't think of it as I'm a slave to my job.

Starting point is 01:36:27 I feel fortunate that I get to take care of my family and I love doing it. If having a kid is going to like make him feel like he's a slave, right. That's not a great sign. You know, maybe he just said that. But I would say that, like, you're probably for a guy who's open to the possibility of having kids, you are probably coming a little hot and heavy, a little strong, a little too much, a little, you know, you're, if I'm him, it's something I tend to do. Yeah, if I'm him, regardless of your valid concerns and the valid red flags, I would be like, whew, you know, like, if Natalie

Starting point is 01:37:07 demanded that I come to her for Thanksgiving, even though we live together, I would have felt the kind of way, I would have been like, why? Why does it have to happen? You know, like, we, you know, we're, if this works out, we're going to spend the rest, I think that was literally a conversation that we had, which is like, listen, I'm really happy. We both talked about it. It wasn't like a point of contention, but we had a conversation, which was like, listen, like, assuming this works out and we're, we're in it for it to work out, we have so many more holidays to spend with each other. So let's just be with each other's families. And it was literally the last Thanksgiving I ever spent with my family because I've spent the past

Starting point is 01:37:47 five Thanksgiving with Natalie's family and happy to do that, you know, and she's spent, and she hasn't been with her family for Christmas because she's been with my family for Christmas and that's just how we've done it, you know, and that was, so we're thankful that we separated that way, you know, and like just kind of demanding that you guys play house four months into a relationship is, no doubt feels like a lot for a guy who, who kind of, envisioned this nomad life for him. So and then like, well, let me, you know, and to be honest, it sounds a bit ridiculous that you were,

Starting point is 01:38:23 well, let me come out to Oklahoma to try it out to see if I can move there in a couple years. Like, uh-huh, like, it's a little, what are you going to? I just don't want to waste my time. I get it, but, you mean, listen, it's a balance, right? Yeah. Dating is hard. I will say we did end up breaking up.

Starting point is 01:38:40 Oh, you broke up. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. When was the last time you spoke? Well, we spoke last night on the phone, but we broke up before I got a chance to go to his families for Thanksgiving.

Starting point is 01:38:54 He came to mine. We had a huge blowout fight on Friday. Who broke up with who? We kind of both, like after the fight, he kind of was just like, I can't give you all the answers you want right now and I don't want to waste your time. And I just think that this is going to be an uphill battle and long distances, And I don't know if I want kids in the same time frame you do. And I think like we should just like this isn't going to work. Okay. So it was kind of like we both mutually agreed. And I will say so we have our friend, mutual friends wedding to go to. And we were trying to get to like we had planned to go to that together. And he he did buy the room. And it's a pretty expensive room. And they only like have like one bedroom boutique hotel situation.

Starting point is 01:39:43 of the country and he's still like we ended fine enough where he's like you're still welcome to like stay in the room with me um i got it like for us so you're welcome to like stay in the room with me for the wedding and i told him like i don't know if that's a good idea it's in march it's a long time longer than you've actually dated yeah do you think you can do it i sure i can suck it up and like he like i i like him as a person how broken up are you about the breakup. Doesn't sound like too broken up. I'm like torn because I wanted to make it work, but long, long distance was like really hard. And then I had like a couple friends like in my ear telling me like what are you doing. You're with somebody who is kind of like going against your

Starting point is 01:40:29 non-negotiables about wanting to have kids. And he like is on the fence about having kids. So it's like there was a lot of like people and like my best friend who's also friends with him telling me he doesn't want what you want for the future. So it was a lot. It doesn't seem like your guy. And clearly you know that. You're not, you're not torn up about it, you know, and, and, and I'm happy to hear that. And that should tell you something. I think if I, like, how to handle this going forward, I would take advantage the fact that you're not torn up about it. And I think you realize deep down, it's probably the right thing. Maybe just, in the short run, I'd maybe just reach out and just say, like, something to the effect of, I don't know, it might, it might go a long way.

Starting point is 01:41:10 There's not, there's no, you don't need to do this because I don't think it really makes, it's like, not going to change the outcome. But for your own piece of mind, maybe just like, kind of owning your part of this, which is to say like, yeah, I know things that work out. And like, as far as the wedding goes, the alternative is what, in your own room? Yeah. And that's, it's insane. Yeah. So I don't really just have the mindset of like, this isn't my guy. You know, I like him. He's fun. I have a good time with them. We enjoy the experience, but he does not what I want. And listen, long distance is at least of your concerns. And not wanting to have kids is also not your only concern.

Starting point is 01:41:46 He wants to travel the world and retire. He doesn't remotely want what you want. It's not even like on the same planet. So he's a really nice guy who was a good time. And to say, listen, for my part, I know I probably got a little cut up in things and I probably caused some fights that we didn't need to have. I'm glad we were able to figure out sooner and later that maybe we weren't right for each other. But I really, like, I am sorry that I probably put a little bit too much.

Starting point is 01:42:09 pressure on us a little too soon. Either way, I know we're probably not right for each other, but like, I'm sorry, I got a little carried away. I just was kind of excited about us and I was excited about the potential, but I think we came to the right decision. And I really, you know, like, thanks to just being up front. And just that way, you're just kind of chill and casual. It will be in the best possible way. Like, you'll probably surprise him because right now, what he thinks of you is like this like, wow, got it a little crazy, a little too intense, a little too much, a little too fast. And I think you just acknowledging that almost might make him confused in the best possible way.

Starting point is 01:42:45 You don't, I think you really need to accept that he's not your guy. Okay. Because if he does, like, question his decision, like, if you're all of a sudden, like, kind of chill all of a sudden, it might make him go, well, you know, not you're chill. Like, let's give it a shot. I don't know. Which I feel like he might because it's like he is kind of showing that he's, like, still, like, he's liking my stories and, you know. He likes you. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:43:07 Listen, you have to be, to your friend's point, you have to know your non-negotiables, which you do. But do you guys really say that, like, they want to have kids? Because, like, I haven't met a guy that says that. Well, when you first started the call before I realized you guys were broken up and you gave me the details, you know, my first thought was, listen, like, for a lot of people who are, like, indifferent or not sure if they want to have kids, when you meet the right person, it completely changes things. Well, well, I didn't want to have kids until I met you. And now I'm like, I see a family with you. You demanded an immediate switchup. And I get it because you're like, well, I don't want to waste my time. But listen, you can meet a guy who says he wants to have a bunch of kids, date, like them, have a great relationship in a year.

Starting point is 01:43:53 Even though he still wants to have kids and you want a lot of the same things, realize you guys aren't compatible because like you can't be in the same room. And then you'll date and feel like all the relationships we have that don't work out can feel like a waste of time. You have to like tell yourself that you learn, you know, you have to try to learn something from that experience and then move forward. To that end, you would just have to know that whoever you date early on is a risk. And there's no guarantees that it's going to work out. So like demanding answers in the first couple months when what you should be doing is just getting to know each other and finding common ground and thing, you know, you just demanded all these, this guy drastically changed his lifestyle. And that was just was never possible. Now, again, I think you probably in a good way got to the answer you needed to get because this guy is, again, it's not just about him not wanting to have kids.

Starting point is 01:44:45 It's about like this a lifestyle he wants to maintain. And he has it really planned out in a way. You know, for a guy who doesn't seem like much of a planner, what he does have planned is his independence. Right. You know, and. And that's what I kind of noticed. It's like it was a lot of like I statements instead of like we statements. And I'm like, so yeah, I honestly would probably, if you're still talking, I would mix it up and be like, hey, you know, we probably made the right decision. And again, I think I came on a little too strong. I think I just got caught up and being scared about like investing in someone who I know didn't want the same things as me. And so I'm sorry I did that. But like, listen, we're cool. It's fine. I obviously still like you. You're, you know, we just want this different things. And let's just plan on going to this wedding to

Starting point is 01:45:34 have a good time. I mean, again, he doesn't want what you want. Right. He's not your guy and you can enjoy his company and like him, but like know that like this isn't the person I should be falling in love with or pining over or missing or crying over because like he doesn't remotely want what you want. Right. Right. And all your mutual friends know this. So see him as that, you know. So then how do I take like the emotion out of it when we spend the weekend? together at the wedding. Like, how do I keep it?

Starting point is 01:46:09 See him as, but you don't, I mean, have fun, go dance, make out, have sex. I don't know.

Starting point is 01:46:13 I mean, like, I'm, you know, all your comfort level. But like, he is, he is a good time.

Starting point is 01:46:19 He's not your guy. You know, the thing that's going to, I don't want to, like, tell the universe I'm still looking for a good time. Like, to me,

Starting point is 01:46:25 I'm like, I'm too old for like these, like casual things. How old are you? I'm 34. You're not too old to have fun. And then while you're, listen,

Starting point is 01:46:33 even if you between now and then meet another guy that's going to completely change the equation come March if you are as single as you are today why why don't you know like you clearly I feel like that sets me back of what I want you have to find balance in your life you clearly

Starting point is 01:46:48 are you struggle with that you can be intentional without being hardcore you know you're allowed to go have a good time you are allowed to like yolo it you are allowed to get a little crazy over a weekend.

Starting point is 01:47:06 You're not too old for anything, you know. There's a difference between going to a festival. And you're like, well, I'm 34. I don't do that anymore. Like, well, yeah, you're not, you're not 22 who's like, you're going on a three-month tour following a band while, you know, and it's like, in your mind, you're acting like that's what you're doing. Just because one weekend, you let loose and have a good time.

Starting point is 01:47:27 And you're just like, well, I'm, I have to be intentional about finding love. And if I'm not intentional every second of every day, I'm not going to find it. That's not how you get what you want. You have to find that balance to still be intentional, to still, like, and then when you meet someone you like to be intentional, to ask those right questions. But again, and then if you start liking someone, it's not, you don't demand that you spend every holiday together. And like, we do these things, these things early in relationships where we set these artificial like benchmarks of like, well, if you like me, then this has to mean something. And if you don't do this, it doesn't mean what I want.

Starting point is 01:48:01 like you guys are just still getting to know each other in that first year you know and you could date someone spend every day together sleep at each other's houses go to his families for the holidays and still break up it doesn't make you guys stronger it doesn't make you guys like closer you know like if i would have like missed my family's thanksgiving and went to hers didn't mean we're a better relationship for it doesn't mean we are more serious about each other than if i didn't in fact i could have been resentful i could have been frustrated i could have been like why are we doing this. We weren't ready. We both felt like we wanted to be with each other's families, and we were both okay with that. And like, we were still confident with what we were working on

Starting point is 01:48:40 our relationship. And that didn't, us going to our respective families for the holidays didn't mean we were less serious about a relationship. You get it in your head that it means something when something doesn't happen. And those like artificial benchmarks, like meeting family members at a certain time or whatever, like every situation is different. What you have to do is just feel good about what you guys are talking about, which you didn't, right? Because obviously he had some, but like that's the stuff that matters. Yeah. You don't feel like it like drives you guys further apart. If you don't take these like moments that you're like in the same place to like see each other. Like that's what I'm also like because if we don't see each other for like

Starting point is 01:49:23 if he's here and he spends time with his family, like I just felt like it would it would draw us further apart and sort of grow us together. If we're not taking the opportunities when we're in the same place to see each other or when we have the time off work to see each other, like, then what? Our relationship gets further apart because then we just don't, it's not growing forward together. It's like you're doing still your own thing and I'm doing my own thing. Well, I think there's a difference there, right? Like, I mean, I go back to the example I gave you about me and Natalie and the holidays in our first year. Minus the holidays, we always felt like we wanted to be around each other. And we never questioned that.

Starting point is 01:49:58 You know, we felt that and we felt that security. And so it was easy for us to be like, okay, well, we can be without each other for the holidays. If you are in a situation, you might have been a little too strong with the holidays. But simultaneously, you might have also had a right to feel like this guy, I don't feel like he wants, that he misses me or wants to be around me. It doesn't feel like he is finding the time to be around me in between those small moments. that aren't the holidays. Does that make sense? Right. Yeah. He's not going out of his way. He is fitting, he is allowing me to show up at his convenience, but that's not the same as making me feel like he really wants to see me. Yeah. And that's that one time that he changed his flight from the

Starting point is 01:50:43 wedding and flew to be with me for a couple days. So that did feel good. And he did take the time to call me at the end of the night and talk for hours. So that was a one-off though. And it wasn't consistent. Right. So you have to be able to discern the difference between that. You know? Yeah. You can, that's what I'm saying. Like there's a difference between these like benchmarks that we have in our head of that they mean something versus like the day to day feeling that you feel early in relationships.

Starting point is 01:51:14 Whether this person is really excited about you and makes it easy for you guys to see each other. Because like you always feel like it's not when are we going to hang out. it's how are we going to hang out it's not if we're going to hang out it's just like you know we are hanging out it's just what are we going to do and where are we going to do it you didn't feel that you know coupled with the holidays were around this time yeah yeah timing was yeah um if he was making you feel like he always wanted to be around you and then he all of a sudden was like well hey have this trip to Columbia I want to go and you know I would really like you to go but like I just I'd really like I'm I really want to do this because it's kind of like on my

Starting point is 01:51:56 bucket list. If you felt very secure about how he felt about you, you might be less fixated on making sure you spend the New Year's together. Right. If that makes sense. No, it does. It does. Yeah, you are. No, this is helpful to hear. Okay. So going forward, do I like look for the guy that says, like, he wants. Yeah, I mean, yeah, listen, it is your non-negotiable. Yeah. It's definitely a red flag. if you meet a guy who's like, I never want to have kids. Yeah. It's less a red flag for, you know, like when you, you know, all this other stuff, you know, you were like, oh, his last girlfriend had kids and so he was like fine with not having kids.

Starting point is 01:52:38 And when while you were saying that, I'm thinking to myself, well, maybe he just got, maybe for a guy who having kids wasn't a big priority, it helped make the decision for him to be dating someone with kids who was like, oh, well, yeah, I mean. But, like, he was dating someone with kids. So in a way, he kind of, like, kind of had kids in a way. I don't know. That's what I asked, too. I was like, you'd be the stepfather to their kids.

Starting point is 01:53:04 And he's like, oh, no, no, I wouldn't. They already have a dad that. She made it very clear. Like, I wouldn't be that. Okay. Well, yeah, either way. Like, if, you know, you know, so it was. So I'm just saying, like, if you meet a guy who was like, you know, I never really

Starting point is 01:53:16 thought about having kids. It's not a big priority. That's not. But then you start dating. And he's like, I really like you. and he starts, you know, it's just like, I could see like having kids with you, you know, and that could change over time. And then like his lifestyle was, you know, he wasn't planning and retire in two years to travel

Starting point is 01:53:31 the world. And he was like, yeah, I don't know. I just, you felt like the life that he wanted for himself was kind of in line with you. Like, there's a lot of people who kids aren't like a number one priority and they're more like noncommittal about it, but they meet the right person and the right situation and realize that they want to have kids. Right. You're describing someone who like, everyone knows this guy.

Starting point is 01:53:51 and everyone's like, whoa, he's dating her and we know, you know, like, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that doesn't seem. Yeah, that's how it felt. And that's, was the hardest part. Yeah, but like, don't get discouraged. You know, you're, you're like, well, what do I do next, you know, like? Yeah. Maybe don't date someone who's like, clearly doesn't want to have kids who, who's like, who's giving nomad, you know, there's a middle ground. Yeah. I hope so. There is. Yeah. In the meantime, you have to try to, chill out a little bit early on when you get excited. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:54:26 Things are going to will play out. You do have to be willing to waste your time and you do have to be willing to get to know someone and just focus on the connection and the quality time that you guys do spend together and not measure it or compare it to anyone else or past relationships or what you think it means. It didn't mean anything that Natalie and I didn't spend the holidays together in the first year of our relationship. That helps to hear.

Starting point is 01:54:54 Yeah. It would matter is that we were on the same page and we felt secure in our connection. And your thing is you didn't feel secure. And then you were hoping that his intentions and other holidays would make you feel secure. Right. And that's why you put all that pressure on it, probably. Yeah, I was looking for a little bit more validation that we were going to align.

Starting point is 01:55:15 So try not to stress about the wedding. The wedding will work itself out. Yeah. I think you're probably capable of assuming you. you're single of going to this wedding and having a good time, it will in no way stop you, like assuming you're single in March, if you go to the wedding, if you can just know that this is not your guy, it is not in any way slowing you down from finding what you want. It's just, it's just a weekend, you know, and short of you, and listen, if you can't emotionally

Starting point is 01:55:43 handle it, if you're just like, I'm, I'm going to, it's going to set me back and I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to fall in love of them and I'm going to get all fucked up emotionally. you know, then maybe don't do it. But if you know he's not your guy, you don't seem all that upset about the fact that you guys broke up. You're frustrated. You're disappointed. It's, you know, but it's you, you accept that it's the right thing.

Starting point is 01:56:04 Well, then you can go and have a good time with a guy you've had a good time with before. And no going in that doesn't mean anything. He's not my guy. But I will enjoy his company. And it's better to have, it's better to go to a wedding with a date. Yeah. It would be less awkward. that is for sure.

Starting point is 01:56:21 So you go have a good time and practice being chill. Practice really in that moment of that wedding. If you're still, be present, enjoy the wedding, celebrate your friend. It is about your friend. It's not about you. Have a good time and just be grateful that you like have a companion. And I think you could have fun.

Starting point is 01:56:40 And if you have a boyfriend then, then that changes the equation. You'll figure it out. Yeah. Cool. Okay. And like what if I, like in between that time,

Starting point is 01:56:49 what if he starts like reaching out? out again and things start like, do I set that boundary of like, we're just friends? Do I cut it off? Do I, I was like, I called him last night and we talked for like another two hours. Do you really got to practice being chill and just be like, listen, like, again, that's why I think it's important for you to own your partner and to say, I, listen, I wasn't my best self when we were dating because I obviously, like, I knew that you didn't want to have kids or probably didn't want to have kids and you have all these like individual goals for yourself with I think she's really cool and excited it just made me feel a little insecure about where I stood and I don't like like you said I don't want to stop you from

Starting point is 01:57:27 living the life you have for yourself and I just I don't want to convince you and I don't want to argue with you over like things like Thanksgiving so like we probably made the best decision and listen if things changing your life let me know but like we don't want the same things and that's and that is okay you know maybe he does come around I don't know but he can't be you know you will know whether he's saying you will know whether it feels right or not but listen to your gut you know okay and and just know that no you're non-negotiables and if if he's just looking to hang out because you're fun but nothing's really changed then you have to set those boundaries and enforce them on yourself and to say no i'm gonna have to say no it's like you're cool but like we we ended things for

Starting point is 01:58:09 a reason and i'm sad don't get me wrong you're a great i wish you wanted what i want but you don't and that is that's okay you know but like let's not make it harder on ourselves than it needs to be. But I am down to go to this wedding with you. And it's, you know, and let's, and let's have fun when we do it. Okay. That feels good. I think I can do that. Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate this. It's helpful to hear from a guy's perspective. All right. Well, uh, keep us posted. Thank you. I will. Until Natalie, say hi. I will. She's so cute. All right. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. Have a good day. Thank you. Bye-bye.

The Viall Files - E1053 Ask Nick Im Spending New Years Alone

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