The Viall Files - E1062 - Going Deeper with Chris Appleton

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Starting point is 00:01:34 lucky you did. Chris Appleton, welcome to the show. Thanks. We're very excited to have you. Me too. We're so excited. I've been watching from afar. Really? Yeah, it's just like on TikTok and stuff, you know, see the clips. Well, again, like I said, we're excited to have you. You have your new book coming out. Your roots don't define you, which first question, I always get fascinated as someone who wrote a book a while back. But I love the title. of the book. Yeah. And I am curious how you came up with it because I feel like when you're writing a book, you know, you're in it, you're writing and then like you're just like, well, what do you think the title should be? And you're like, for me, that was a very like difficult process because it feels

Starting point is 00:02:26 like so much goes into it. But I love the name. Obviously, I love the play on words. So I am curious. Like, how did you come up with it? Did you have help with your team? I mean, it was kind of a combination of throwing ideas around. But it came up pretty organically. just because of the basis of what the book was about. But originally this wasn't the book. There was a different book I wrote originally, which was maybe what people kind of know of me from social media. Like, you work with celebrities, live books great.

Starting point is 00:02:55 And I kind of just felt like it wasn't really a real representation of me where I'm at. And so we redid it. And I started with some, I guess, stuff I thought I'd never tell anyone, like stuff that was once a real dark secret. Yeah. So I have to say it was pretty full circle moment doing the whole thing. And then really the roots don't define you just came from the fact that it really does define so many people. And in my career, I've seen it define so many people like celebrities, models, like regular men and women that come into a cellar.

Starting point is 00:03:25 And I was like, I think we need to scratch the surface and take away a bit of this kind of glamorous, polished image that maybe people know and show a few kind of raw truths. And I was like, well, in able to do that, I guess I have to be open with mine. you know and maybe that I encourage someone else to do the same was that a fairly intimidating process brutal yeah yeah it's the hardest thing I've ever done did you feel freeing even though it was scary and hard yeah I mean it's definitely it's been a real healing process of I didn't even know I needed I thought I dealt with a lot of stuff but even when I was redoing the audio side of it I was like oh my god this stuff once was just such a dark secret which I thought no one would ever know and I know this has been recording it's going to go out for everyone to hear but

Starting point is 00:04:08 The thing is, you know, I've grown and worked with different people. I've experienced things where I'm like, so many people have been through this. And if it can help just one person, then you know what? It was worth doing because it's been a journey. People just see the end result. They're like, oh, it looks like you've got a great life. But it's far from that. And it has been at times, you know.

Starting point is 00:04:28 I'm assuming you read your audiobook with your soothing British voice. Yeah, the voice is on its last legs right now, hence the throat. As a fellow person with dyslexia. Oh my God. Was that as brutal as it was for me? Yeah, I got it into it with the audio woman. She's like, again, again, I was like, I'm dyslexic, this is really, I was like doing eight chapters a day, which is a lot for me to read. I was like, I'm so sorry.

Starting point is 00:04:51 I'm so sorry. I was just apologizing. There was a couple sentences that took me five minutes, you know. Yeah, I was like, why I worked so hard. Yeah. It's funny, like, you kind of after a while, the words start to like merge in a little bit. I don't know, I just need to keep drinking coffee and, you know, changing it up. Well, I, again, I keep saying I'm excited to have a chat with you, but your story, I find to be very inspirational. And I think, you know, we're in a time today where I feel like a lot of people, all people, are looking for inspiration. And I feel like the world is a place right now where it's hard to find. And I think sometimes often the world will, you know, tell, it's, I think the world's full of excuses of why it's okay to fail.

Starting point is 00:05:36 or why it's okay to give up or not believe in yourself. And with all the people, you know, opinions are everywhere. They're unlimited online. And yet you have a story that, again, you know, you really started from nothing. Yeah. And you've grown to be this ultra famous, ultra successful stylist, working with the biggest celebrities and really have overcome a ton of adversity. And I just think it's really cool for,

Starting point is 00:06:05 I don't care who you are, whether you're someone who's super into hair or you're someone like me, who's this kind of your typical guy who's a big sports fan, but hearing your story, you have so many, like, just really great lessons of why you've come to be where you are. It's not an accident. Like, you just, you know, it's not like, I'm sure you've had a couple of great moments where you got lucky or you find yourself the right place, but, you know, it's not an accident. And so much of what brought you here are all the kind of the processes and the discipline that you've had and the in the choices that you've made and I think it's just really inspirational. Oh, thanks, but I really appreciate that. You know, a few people have said that. Every fact, everyone that's read the book who said

Starting point is 00:06:46 something along the lines, which means a lot to me because, yeah, you don't know how people are going to sort of, if you post a picture on Instagram and you're topless, it's like what they're going to say, you look hot or not like, who cares. But when you actually putting stuff like this out, which is about your life and people can have an opinion on it. Yeah. It's pretty scary. It's just really nice to find, I've actually found a lot of people open up to me and like I've found very kind of comforting stories from it or being able to feel like they can tell me theirs, which I love because I think there should be more conversation around that because people are complicated and life's hard, you know, and I think it's good to have more conversations

Starting point is 00:07:20 around it, especially probably someone from like me that looks like, have a slightly different life to what people know, you know. I do come from like, we were really poor as kids and we had really humble upbringing. You know, my mom, like, she was, her mom and dad got murdered when she was 10. My dad got point in a home when he was five. Like, they sort of survived, but that gets inherited. You never really realize you pick up these kind of patterns. And then you take them off into your own adult life.

Starting point is 00:07:49 And I didn't realize how much affected me until I did. And then that's when, yeah, that was the, that was the hardest time in my life. But I just wanted to be able to, like I say, just maybe connect to someone that also feels the same. And it's brought up a lot of different conversations, which I think they're good. You write in your book a little bit about your childhood and how, you know, pulling parts of your childhood that, like, I talk to a lot of people who, whether like they have issues at home, maybe don't have a great relationship with their parents or just, you know, maybe have, you know, maybe a darker childhood. And they want to just completely forget it, wipe it away. And, and you talk a

Starting point is 00:08:30 little bit in your book and I'd love to have you elaborate more the importance of of not doing that. Yeah. There's still something to pull and something to learn and figuring out what parts of your past really help shape you and then what parts that you want to maybe create new beginnings for yourself. And I guess at what point in your life did you kind of come to that awareness? I think in reflections of what you're saying like so many people are stuck and a lot of people and like the reader will find this in the book that people get to the point where they look in the mirror and like is this it like is this alive like how did I get here you know because we're looking in the mirror like 10 or 12 times a day we just glance like you're brushing your teeth you're doing your hair whatever

Starting point is 00:09:13 you're picking your face you're not very often stopping and really like looking and saying like am I aligned on the inside with like what my outside image is you know we don't always go that deep there is a time that you do it without necessarily knowing which is when you sit in the hairdresser's chair and usually there's that kind of voice, which is the hater. And I talk about a chapter in this in the book, where most people I found they sat in the chair and they would pull themselves apart and speak to themselves.

Starting point is 00:09:40 Like they say the worst things about themselves. Like, you know, it starts with like, is the lighting bad? Is this the lighting bad? Like, God, I've got gray or like my wrinkles or my little fat. My hair's thinning. Yeah, you know, the hater. And there's basically techniques in the book,

Starting point is 00:09:55 which I also wanted to sort of incorporate to be able to, like, I still have them now. I'm still triggered all the time. But instead of it being at volume 10, it's like down to a two and you can come back to yourself and come back to like who you are as an adult. Because it's not actually about deleting your past. It's about using it as motivation to, I guess, empower where you're at now. And a lot of us go back to like our childhood state. And a lot of the time, I think we want to like erase the dark parts of our life. And I definitely did that for a long time. But when I was a kid at school, I was very quickly told kind of what I was.

Starting point is 00:10:30 So I was dyslexic at school, which, as you know, mate, I don't know, were you told you was stupid? Not stupid, but like, I'm 45. I'm 42. You see, I don't think dyslexia when I was a kid wasn't really. Oh, I had no idea. No. Yeah, I was just like, I can't read out loud.

Starting point is 00:10:47 You know, you remember in school and then you had to read a passage and I would be terrified to like have to read it because I just knew you can get it. So not so much stupid, but yeah, it was. like, why can't you read? Yeah. It was kind of like you either learn from the board and write it down and memorize it, otherwise you, you know, whereas if I spoke about something, I'd get it, I could bring life to it.

Starting point is 00:11:07 So really, I was kind of, I was putting like the special needs class. And, yeah, I felt pretty, like I was stupid. I was told that. And then I started doing hair pretty young. My mom, I always, I always noticed, you know, she had a rough life. Yeah. And I kind of did her hair around the age of nine and she'd stand up and look in the mirror. And I'd be like, oh, wow, like, you get to make people really feel some things.

Starting point is 00:11:27 because I try and make her look glamorous, which was very far from what she looked like. Like, what were you doing at 9? I just, I don't know, like, she was sitting in the chair and I'd just probably be getting the hair dry.

Starting point is 00:11:36 I mean, I remember my dad happened to cut the hair dry at the back of her head and stuff. It was those, maybe those brushes that you just get matted in the hair and it was like on and you'd frantically unplug it because it's going to sound fire. But in between that,

Starting point is 00:11:47 I tried to do like hairstyles, which made a little more glamorous, like Hollywood stars. I'd be like, watch people on TV. And then when she stood up, I saw her like kind of respond. And I love that.

Starting point is 00:11:57 I felt that was really, powerful. I was like, wow, I'm good at this. I did something. Yeah. I was like, I'm going to be, I'm going to be the best at this. I'm going to show everyone that I'm not stupid. So I got a job in the hair salon. But then when I got a job in the hair salon, guys then, anyone that worked in a hair salon were gay. So it was just like, why have you got a job when a hair salon, you're gay? And it wasn't said in a nice way. I was, I mean, I don't want to go on about it, but I was bullied really aggressively. You know, it was, it was bad. It was spat on, beating up, like, not for anything other than just like people assumed I was gay because I did hair. So, like, in

Starting point is 00:12:27 of like you finding your passion, it was like, oh, I was, you, you felt like people were saying you were forced into this. Totally. Because, well, it just seemed like a bad thing. It was before I'd even kind of had sex. I hadn't, it wasn't even in like, I wasn't quite at that exploration stage. And I never definitely didn't get to have it because if someone says to you don't put your hand in a fire, you're kind of just avoid it. I know it was like a bad thing. I was like, well, that's bad. I don't want to be stupid. I don't want to be gay. So I just got so fixated on trying to prove everyone wrong. But I got so fixated on trying to prove everyone wrong that I really abandoned myself. Like at a very young age, I left who I was and that little kid that needed just to know

Starting point is 00:13:06 it'd be okay and got focused. And that really helped me in my career, absolutely. But personally, it was a terrible thing. And it wasn't until I was like 26, 27, which is when the mother of my kids, we'd been together since I was 19. Our relationship broke down and I started to explore more things. and that's when the gay thing came in and that was really hard because there was something I didn't really understand and then that was a whole other discovery but it's not, in answer to your question

Starting point is 00:13:35 for a long time I tried to delete the past even moving to America a lot of it was about being able to come to America and be like hey I'm Chris and I'm gay I suppose to I'm Chris who's gay but was straight has two kids everyone knows who my girlfriend was and it was just like

Starting point is 00:13:51 I just felt so ashamed and it felt so heavy. So I ran away. I moved to America. Yes, I would say it was for my job. Absolutely. There was a big motivation. And I was also like I get, I get to move from my job, but also I get to start over.

Starting point is 00:14:04 Yeah, I got to delete my roots. I got to be like, I'm not that guy. And so much so that when I used to come back to the UK, I'd come back on trips, I would have like a full panic attack. And I still didn't even understand that. I remember I was in the car and I couldn't like breathe. And I was really emotional. I just was like, I've got to get out.

Starting point is 00:14:19 I don't want to be here. I can't. And it was like post-traumatic stress. because I just abandoned that version of myself and ran to America. So actually cut back to this year, I've just brought house in the UK, and it's interesting this book comes out at this point, because it's the first time I've could go back and redefine my roots and understand that all of it is me.

Starting point is 00:14:39 It's just took a minute to get there and become, you know, the full thing. And I think a lot of people are so shamed. I mean, I was shamed my whole life. That's why I wasn't authentically myself. But when you're not aligned, like internally and externally, it's just a really sad place to be. There's plenty of times where I look like I've had it together and just been really sad in my life. But finding that real alignment is really your superpower.

Starting point is 00:15:00 How were you able, I mean, your first job when you worked at the hair salon, were you? I got a job at the age of 13. 13. So I remember the, I remember that it was so weird. I remember my first day in the salon, I remember where I was standing against a wall. I saw women walking one way with like the head down, hair tied back. And they'd walk out. They'd probably used to blow out.

Starting point is 00:15:17 Yeah. But they felt like they were like, taking out. They were like bouncing out. Yeah. This is what I want to do. I love this. And it was so good. Like I remember just feeling so mesmerized about how you could like affect people and

Starting point is 00:15:30 make themselves feel seen. And then I made a whole career out of it, which was amazing. But then I talk about this in the book. Like that's great for my profession, but emotionally not so much because I was kind of self-abandoned myself and that reflected in the relationships I went into and the decisions I made. Like it's very complex. But when you break it down, it's actually really easy to see.

Starting point is 00:15:51 I just didn't want to see it. I made a career out of making other people look in the mirror and see themselves. I just never looked at myself. You didn't do it yourself. Until I did. And that's like the age of 26, 27. And once you look, you can't unsee it, you know? It's funny you mentioned 26, 27.

Starting point is 00:16:07 Did you come out then too? No. Tell me. No, but I was around 28 when I had a relationship. I was engaged. It ended poorly. And I look back now as one of the best moments of the things. my life. And, and I say that because it was a time where I, that was when I felt like I really

Starting point is 00:16:29 knew myself. Yeah. You know, I think up to that point, you know, it was, I don't know, maybe you just, you're trying to be something you're not or you're, maybe again, you're trying to do what society tells you to do. Yeah, you know, be normal, be this, be that. I always say, like, your early 20s are you trying to live up to the expectations you set for yourself when you're a teenager, you know, you're 18, you're 19, I want to drive this, I want to do this, you have all these dreams and you don't you know you're assuming you're in early 20s you're just like I'm going to go do that and then you get to a certain age you're like I don't want I don't know I don't know if I want to do that anymore and yeah it was in not until my late 20s where I finally was like just kind of

Starting point is 00:17:04 comfortable acknowledging to myself I'm not good at that or that is a weakness of mine or I am yeah I am insecure about that you know and just kind of being comfortable saying you know where it was like when that relationship ended you know before people would ask oh why would that ended and you'd be like oh you know it just relationships end yeah and and then finally i was like no it it ended because of this yeah you know and even though i was embarrassed to say it it you know there was a a sense of like self-assuredness and yeah it was it's just it's interesting that i was in the same area in life where you kind of felt like you finally accepted who you were yeah i mean i'm at that place now i mean i think when i was 26 and like it came out that was i mean i spoke about this

Starting point is 00:17:50 before. It's probably the darkest part of the book, which is when I, I tried to kill myself. Telling my kids was the hardest thing I think I could ever possibly do. I mean, you know, you guys know as parents. All you want to do is protect your kids. Some kid hits them in the playground. You want to find out who that little shit is and, you know, like parent mode comes in. To be the one that you're causing pain to your kids was just to me, like the biggest failure. I just felt so much shame. And I think because it was so bad at school, you know, like, I got badly being up

Starting point is 00:18:20 I got like it was really rough kids can be really nasty so I kind of felt like I was bringing that pain to them but also like you know we live in L.A. now in New York but like

Starting point is 00:18:32 from where I was from like it's still to that day was like it wasn't really normal to be gay you know it was still a little you know we think we get used to it maybe in the cities but when you go into the suburbs there is still that kind of like you know gossipy and I just

Starting point is 00:18:47 I just felt like I was just bringing that to them. And that broke me. I just was like it would be better if their dad was dead than if they had a gay dad. Like I genuinely believed that with everything I felt. Were you able to get past that feeling? I didn't. I remember I drove for a long time. It's funny.

Starting point is 00:19:04 Like I think I was so out of sinks with trying to understand it. Everyone kept telling me I must have always known. And I didn't. Like when I was having sex, I wasn't thinking of guys. I wasn't watching gay porn. I wasn't secretly meeting up with men. I just felt I was happy. I thought I was doing my thing.

Starting point is 00:19:22 I had two kids. I was like, man of the house. I love being my girlfriend. I mean, we're still best friends now. We have a great relationship. So I couldn't understand why I couldn't get back to that. But I guess, like I say, once you've seen yourself and you know something's not aligned and something's not right, you really have to go back to it.

Starting point is 00:19:38 But cut from like, you know, 13 to like, what, 26? That's a lot of years to try and understand what the fuck happened, you know, in a short space of time. I laid there and I took the tablets and I drank like a bollogen and Kate actually is the one that called the ambulance. She traced my call and I don't remember a lot. I was in hospital for a while and I remember just voices. But I remember laying there and I'm thinking, I didn't die. I was alive and I remember thinking to myself, well, I couldn't hate myself anymore. Like I couldn't try and run away from myself anymore.

Starting point is 00:20:15 I couldn't try and avoid who I was anymore. And I was like, what about if I just surrender? What about if I just accept it? And it was quiet. It wasn't like a loud moment, but I just kind of let go for the first time I think in my life since I was like that young kid that tried to prove to everyone there wasn't these things that I was, you know, they were telling me I was. And I just let go.

Starting point is 00:20:37 And I didn't really know what was next. I didn't really know the next steps. But that was the beginning of the journey of like finding acceptance. Well, it's like you were still there, literally. You know, like once you let go, like sometimes the biggest thing we're so afraid of to acknowledge or to admit or, you know, and your fears were so dark that you had that dark moment. Yeah. But like once you, as you say, let go, it's like you were still there. You were still okay.

Starting point is 00:21:06 You still had people who loved you. You still had your, you know, your ex-partner who was still there. You're still your best friend. You still had your kids. And yet it was like there must have been kind of like, oh, it's. It's like, yeah, the world doesn't have to end. And I can be resilient through this moment. And was there almost like, did things get brighter from there?

Starting point is 00:21:26 Oh, 100%. I remember walking out of the hospital. I remember just feeling lighter. And they were like, we need you to speak to, you know, psychiatrists and stuff because obviously. Sure. But I just remember, and deep down knowing, I was like, I know I don't need that. I know I just have to, I have to start, I have to start living this.

Starting point is 00:21:41 This is who I am. I don't know it. But I'm going to try and understand it. And anyone that doesn't want to be in my life because of it, I just have to respect that and just try and move forward. So, yeah, there was definitely a lightness. I remember walking out of the hospital feeling, I just felt like the first day of the rest of my life.

Starting point is 00:21:58 And it sounds really cheesy, but I didn't realize I was like this, like so much in my life, like, tense. And I remember when I kind of felt like my shoulder, I felt like I just stopped. It's like I was holding my breath and I just like, took a breath. And I was just like, all right. Do you remember what it was like to tell your kids? I mean, it was hard because we live in a small town. People knew who we were.

Starting point is 00:22:21 And it just felt really bad and dark. And me and Kate decided we had to tell the kids. But I don't think we were. We hadn't figured out what that meant. She was going through what she was going through. I was going through what I was going through. So it wasn't as though we were in a great place to sit the kids down and be like, this is what's happening.

Starting point is 00:22:36 We tried. But I couldn't even say it. I couldn't say the words I was gay. I couldn't get the words out. I couldn't say it. Because I was like once it's out, it's out. I can't take it back. And I can say it in front of them.

Starting point is 00:22:50 I could say it in front of other people. I couldn't say it to them. And then I remember this little confused. Billy my son was a little confused. My daughter was really upset. She's like, I just want you to be okay, dad. But I remember my son saying, does that mean like you're going to like have like,

Starting point is 00:23:03 we were on hand be. I remember saying we were on hand to be like this. Because like, you know, society projects these images of what gay men look like. There wasn't another role model of like, you know, when I was a kid, I was told that gay men get HIV and die, basically. And it wasn't like necessarily the wrong information. It's kind of what they knew then. Like Princess Diana shook a guy's hand without a glove on that had HIV.

Starting point is 00:23:25 And it was like world-wise news. So it was kind of just what people knew. We've grown a lot. And people know a lot more in the last like 10, 15 years. But back then it was kind of just what people knew. So he was just confused. And I was like, I'm still me. I'm still me.

Starting point is 00:23:40 I just felt like I was, my life was. my life was rolling away from me. Everything I knew and everything I built was just going. And I just felt like I was the disease. I say it in the book, I felt like it was a disease. I felt like I had cancer and I wanted to cut it out of me. I didn't want to die. I wanted to kill it.

Starting point is 00:23:57 I just wanted it to go. I wanted to erase. What is your relationship like with that version of you today? I just feel really sad for that little kid that like never got a chance to explore to like discover stuff. make mistakes when he was young. It really helped me professionally because it made me so ahead of the game. I mean, I had my first house at 19. I had kids when I was 19.

Starting point is 00:24:23 You know, I was earning money. But emotionally, I just abandoned myself. So it wasn't, it didn't mean anything. Obviously, my kids mean the world to me, but like the success didn't, it didn't really sit. And it was, I will honestly say, I thinking part of the acceptance and part of like moving forward, my life and my career really changed quite dramatically very fast. The whole kind of coming to America, working with celebrities and stuff, I think what a lot of people don't realize and I go a lot

Starting point is 00:24:52 into this in the book is that you may think you're okay, but if you ever wondered, is there more, is this it? You know, if you look in the mirror and don't really feel like you're fully aligned with how you feel on your inside to what your outside image portrays and like where you want to be in the future, something's just off. And when something feels not right, it usually isn't, you know, And it will affect your relationship you're in. It will affect your friendships, financial decisions. It affects everything. I mean, you saying that, like, it reminds me of my first week on the job post-graduating college.

Starting point is 00:25:26 Oh, really? I was an accountant. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I, it was like I finished the first week. It was like a Friday. And I vividly remember this moment. I was an auditor.

Starting point is 00:25:37 So I was at other, you know, my company would go to other companies and work there. And I remember thinking, is this the rest of my life? Like, is this it? This can't be it. Yeah, but you kind of told that's the normal thing. Yeah. You know, it was like, oh my God, I'm like, I'm 20, I don't know how it was, 22, 23 years old. I'm like, this can't be it.

Starting point is 00:25:55 Like, if, you know, and just it felt off, you know. And it's, I were just like hearing you say that, you know. And you're, and I did that job for a few years and just kind of muscled through it. And yeah, I just always, I always felt like. There's just got to be more. There's just, I feel, you know, I'm capable of something more. I didn't know what that more was. And yeah, but like there was that voice.

Starting point is 00:26:21 And it's just interesting to hear you say that. And I think that's why, again, why I think I just connected with your book so much because I think so many people are told to ignore those voices or just, hey, man, like, welcome to the grind, you know. And I think you have so many people around you, you know, and when I say that you, I mean, like all of us who are just people, accept that. They accept how things are supposed to be. And then, you know, it's, sometimes your friends, you want them to be your biggest supporters, but like, you know, you talk about envy in the book or

Starting point is 00:26:52 jealousy, right? And the truth is, yeah, a lot of people don't want to see you succeed as much as they say they do. People love to see people fail. Yeah, you know, because, and I guess to that, you know, how did you overcome those voices where you were just like, fuck it, I'm just going to, I'm going to really go for it and not listen to that because it is hard to do. Especially because it started for you at such a young age. Yeah. The voices. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:14 The people telling you you can't do it. All the time. My whole career. I mean, I think when I came to America, a lot of people thought I just had it. Oh, he's like, he's British. It's because he's got blonde hair or it's because he's got a big personality. You know, like, yeah. It's like, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:27:31 No, that's what I heard. There was a million things of why I was like working with Kim Kardashian. I don't know. I think I was just good at hair and I really cared. But I think. I think envy is a really powerful thing, and I put it in the book, because it's something I've always kind of seen in my life and in my realm, and I think a lot of people have envy, and it can be a really dark, toxic thing, if not you as well. And I think I speak about it in a way of using envy

Starting point is 00:27:56 as a motivation. So if there's someone that, you know, we all at those moments where, like, God, their body is so much better than mine, or like, I don't know, your hair is perfect. Like, I look, why can't I have that boyfriend? You know, social media is kind of sometimes a toxic. place for us, you know, mentally. I think for me, I try and flip the narrative into more looking at that person as being an inspiration of how you can get what they, you know, what is it about them you want? You know, what is it about them you aspire to have? And actually use them as a role model to work towards. Like, I remember when as a kid in Paris, like I used to assist at the shows, and I'd just be passing hair pins to like the, it wasn't even the stylist. I wasn't doing

Starting point is 00:28:36 hair. It was at the Chanel fashion show. And I remember I'd just be passing pins to some other assistant. But I was there at like four in the morning watching the main person. I'd be like, how do they walk? How do they talk? How do they interact with their models? How do their hands move? I would just be a sponge and I've been like that for every like moment of my career. Even working with Kim, she has created this empire. I mean, I remember when she creates skims and it was called Camono originally and like just all the challenges of building your own business, building an empire. Like I'd be a fool not to be. So like I would never, I don't think I'm ever jealous, but they're definitely role models. And I just kind of think, wow, I'm inspired by that. And I'd just be like a sponge absorbing it. And I think

Starting point is 00:29:15 in the flip of that, like, envy is such a bad place to be. And I think that gets really dark. You know, sometimes I see these comments on social media. I remember there was a client. I saw a comment under someone's page and it says, I hope you get cancer. And I was like, fuck me. That is such a really sad people out there. And And, you know, I think it roots from envy and, like, jealousy. So it can be a really dark place. I think it's also paralyzing and it keeps you exactly where you are. So I think, yeah, all right, look, you can feel envious for a minute, but then get up and do something about it.

Starting point is 00:29:45 Like, if you want to be better, be better. Like, let's start. You know, that's like being jealous of someone with a hot body, you know, and you sit there eating donuts. It's like, there has to be a point where you're like, all right, how did they do it? And maybe I build my way towards that. And, like, what are the steps to change? Because change is the hardest thing.

Starting point is 00:30:01 Most people go, well, I want to change. I don't know how. But again, that's what's in the book. The reader will find ways of like, sort of finding out where they're at, where they want to be, you know, what the future looks like and kind of how to get there. Because I think a lot of people just lost. A lot of people just don't know, you know. Yeah, starting's often the hardest part. Yeah, definitely.

Starting point is 00:30:18 Get those habits. Going back to your childhood and being bullied, how I was severely bullied in junior high. Was there anything during that time that your parents did or didn't do? Obviously, we have a daughter, everyone who's listening, who has children, wants to protect their children. In those moments when you were really struggling, getting bullied, what did you wish would have been done by your parents? Or what did they do that you were like, thank God, I have them? I think, I don't know if there's anything they could do. I think it was just society was a certain way.

Starting point is 00:30:56 It wasn't one person. It was so many people. And like my mom would be at the school all the time. She'd call the police. Like when I just got jumped out of school and guys just, he punched me in the back of head. And I didn't even fight back. Like, I'm a big guy who could probably defend myself. I just didn't understand what was going.

Starting point is 00:31:10 I understand why I hadn't done anything. You know, like, I think they tried their best they could. I just think there needs to be more conversations. Maybe people that do have a platform like I do. And that's why I did the book because it's like, all right, this is what it looks like. This is what I really come from. And maybe this can make someone else feel less alone. And I think I just probably wanted to feel less alone in that moment.

Starting point is 00:31:30 like less like I was, I know, like an outcast or I was doing something wrong. But I think that really goes back to me coming back to myself. And I think I just self, I abandon myself really at a young age. And a lot of people do. A lot of people abandon themselves because of society trying to do the right thing for their parents, you know, like told to be a doctor and not necessarily what they want to do or told that, you know, I don't know, you're the quiet one or you're the loud one. I think you like carry these things.

Starting point is 00:31:59 I first realized when I sat with people in the salon in the chair and I talked to them about like, you know, what they wanted to do, what their aspirations were. And they'd say things like, oh, you know, I love blonde hair and maybe they had brown hair, but like I know I could never be blonde. And I'd be like, oh, why is that? And they're like, well, I just, no, I could never be blonde. And I say, okay, interesting. Like, who told you that? And they're like, well, oh, well, you know, and they'd go back and actually, when I was younger, when I was a kid, this girl, you know, and it's like, we carried that for 20 years. and you let that hold you back whole life. That's like a small, silly example. There's so many, like, the way you behave in your relationship, the way you spend your money, it's all things like usually we've inherited.

Starting point is 00:32:45 They're not necessarily our choice. We think are our choice, and we'd argue they are. But if something doesn't feel right, and if something just feels off, and like I say, you get to that point where you're like, this doesn't, something doesn't feel right.

Starting point is 00:32:56 It's usually because you're not living authentically. You're living aversion, of yourself someone told you to be. Going through what you went through were there characteristics that you instilled in your children at an early age to like protect them or give them the confidence and the, I mean, you do your best, right, as a parent. Me and Kate, I have to say Kate has been a saving grace. She's still my best friend.

Starting point is 00:33:20 We still talk all the time. And it's real love. It's like we have an unconditional love, I believe. because we have these two kids who despite it being dysfunctional, it works. And actually had a situation at Christmas when I went back, got a house, I got my parents and my family and stuff to all kind of leave the town. We were brought up in because I thought, I want everyone to sort of get out of that sort of smaller city

Starting point is 00:33:47 and have a different experience and start again, like be able to have a different opportunity. And it was funny, like we were at a table and someone said something. and I was so taken back. I was like 12 years old again. It was the weirdest thing. Just the tone of the voice, the way they were speaking, what they said. And even though everything I know and I've learned, my head was just down because

Starting point is 00:34:07 if I say something, it's going to be a war. So everyone went quiet. The whole table just went quiet. And then, you know, I did. I went to do what I always did, put my running shoes on. I left. That's how I'm going to go. You know, I just thought I don't want to really be around this.

Starting point is 00:34:22 So I left. And if I want to get it, I want to leave. I want to go back to America. I don't want to be here. I just can't be around like that and that dynamic. I've moved on so much in my life. I just don't want to be around that. And then I really thought to myself and I was like, well, that's what I always did.

Starting point is 00:34:42 And that's like the wounded version of myself, like run. But what about if I just sit with it and I sit with the uncomfortable of it and I actually instead of just going, well, that's the way they are. They've always been that way. what about if I put a boundary in place? And I did. I actually said, look, this is how I feel. And I want you to respect that or, you know, you're just not welcome. And that was really powerful. But my daughter came home. And she said to me, oh, when you left, it was like, everyone was, you know, arguing and whatever. I said, okay. She's like, I just want you to know this particular person that I'd like, I love you,

Starting point is 00:35:12 but I've never had the best relationship with them. And I think, you know, going forward, I just, I'm drawing the line. That's my boundary. I don't want to have, you know, I'll welcome whoever. but like this particular person that they've crossed the line. Like the way they spoke to me, it was just really bad. And that's not what Owen in my life. And I was like, yes, yes, thank you. Yeah, I was just like, and I was just thinking, wow, we did kind of a good job. You know, like, people don't realize that they can set boundaries and they can, it's not,

Starting point is 00:35:41 it doesn't mean you're arrogant. Kitty, my daughter is the nicest, sweetest girl in the world. But God, I'm proud of it, the way she would just like have that self-respect to say, because I know she's a great person, you know, and someone spoke to her awfully and she's just like, you know, I'm done there with that, you know, and I'm going to create that separation. And I don't think that as a society, we always allow people to have that voice. You know, we kind of just, well, it's just the way they are. It's the way we do. But I think that's, you know, how you make a change by putting your boundaries in place and then just moving on.

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Starting point is 00:37:30 And, you know, and everyone's saying, you know, goes fast, don't, you know, don't blink or don't do this. And I'm just curious, Matt Damon recently did an interview where he talks something about this. And I thought I was really touched by a story. And he said he got some advice about not blinking. and he told this story about his daughter. I think she's 17, broke her collarbone. So she couldn't brush her hair. So she was getting ready for school.

Starting point is 00:37:54 And she asked, Matt, can you brush my hair? Sweet. And so he had this like epiphany where it was like, you know, she's 17. So clearly she's been old enough to brush her hair for some time. And it was like, holy shit, I don't remember the last time I brushed my daughter's hair. Wow. And it was like this really kind of, man, you take for granted how fast. this goes. Do you have moments like that now that your kids are older? And I just from your

Starting point is 00:38:20 perspective, you know, can you share anything that like from our standpoint of parents like just, you know, just a reminder of how fast it goes? Yeah, all the time. I mean, they constantly remind me that they're not kids anymore. You know, I'll just be like, uh, just small things. Like, hey, can we come around, hang out? Let's, I don't know, do some things. She's like, oh, sorry, dad, I've made arrangements with someone. I'll be like, oh, okay. And I'm going to, why don't we just do it? And she's like, with dad, look, I'm sorry, but like, you know, I've made a plan and I'm, I'm, I know just small ways where I'm like, oh, you know, as when she was just a little kid, I would just do whatever, whenever we wanted to. You always want to hang out with me.

Starting point is 00:38:59 And I'm not always in it. And that's hot. I remember when I first started dating. And we, she asked me to brush her hair once. And she literally taught me how to brush her hair. You asked him to brush your hair? Oh, sexy time. And she.

Starting point is 00:39:11 Okay, I see what you guys get up to. And yeah, and she's like, I don't know. She's like, he just started going at it. I'm like, whoa, it's, I think I'd like gotten out of the shower and I was like sick or something. And I was like, can you just, like, brush my hair please? And he just started going. And I'm like, whoa, ow, that hurts. You got to like hold it.

Starting point is 00:39:29 You were like doing role player. Just be my hair today. Oh, okay. What are we doing today? She was like, hey, someday you might have a daughter and you're going to have to brush her hair. Oh, that's beautiful. You're teaching her. And now that we have a daughter, I love brushing her hair.

Starting point is 00:39:43 And it's like a moment. And now it's like, then I heard Matt story and it like made me so sad that like there will be some day where I stop brushing her hair. But you know, I then try and like just think about how I have a lot of gratitude. And I have always a gratitude because I'm not always been present for it. But I think I have a lot of gratitude now and I really value that I'm at the place in my life where we can, I can just really appreciate it. And I sit back now and I watch a lot more and I take it in and I really absorb it. In my life has always been very busy, you know, trying to be something, trying to be successful. Now I've really like learn to be present and really just take it in and just be grateful,

Starting point is 00:40:24 whether it's just, you know, I don't know, we take the dogs to the park and it's the most, I just love it. Like we have a dog dash who's like the heart of the family. He's running around and just sitting on the grass and just talking. And those moments just feel so special because I know they're really rare. And hopefully you get the privilege to grow older, but, you know, we don't. And like, no, no, I think I just, I feel gratitude a lot. And I will say, I think feeling gratitude is really powerful because it's so easy to go to the negative.

Starting point is 00:40:47 And that kind of goes into the envy of what you've not got and what we're missing out on. But trying to just be really grateful. Yeah, it's the only feeling that doesn't have a toxic opposite gratitude. And there's nothing more like, you know, gratifying them being a parent and just watching your kids grow. When you moved to L.A. was being a stylist for celebrities always the goal? Or is that something you fell into? Well, I was on this mission to be the best, right? So I got a job in the age of, like, what was I, 30, and I qualified pretty young.

Starting point is 00:41:17 I was working in the salon. And then I started to see what was outside of that. So I was doing editorial hair. I was doing fashion week. I was doing photo shoots. Anything I could get my hands on, any course I could go on, I would learn. Any aspect of hair I didn't know how to do, I would go and learn how to do it. I remember as in New York once, and I had a photo shoot, and they wanted me to do with

Starting point is 00:41:36 this braid. I couldn't do it. So I got myself in a car, took myself to a grading shop, and I just sat and watched, I paid the woman to watch me. I was sitting there with a doll's head. I just wanted to be great at my craft. I kept just trying to take it in and be a sponge. So one day I'm working in London.

Starting point is 00:41:49 I had a little bit of success in London, but obviously England's, you know, smaller. And I was working with Rita Orra. So social media had just started, and I was just posting my work, and I was changing her hair a lot. It was long, it was short. It was kind of before, like, Kylie Jenner and stuff was doing, you know,

Starting point is 00:42:04 her greed, you know, was always, it kind of became a thing of changing the hair. But at the time, it was kind of relatively new. And I got a new. email one day. I remember I was on sat and checked my emails and it was asking me to do Jalo's hair for a Vegas tour and I thought, oh wow. So I deleted it. Oh, it's trash. Right? Like spam. I'm like, oh, you've won a million pounds. Just ring this number. And like, I'm like, ha ha ha, stupid. You're not giving me. Yeah. She has that. Oh, stupid. Moved on. And then I remember

Starting point is 00:42:37 like a week or two later, I got another email. And I was like, what the, how does J-Low? know who I am. Like I'm just Chris. This is this little guy from Lester, like trying to do some hair and do a good job. I don't know. And then I'm thinking, well, I guess it's social media. I guess it's the power of social media and people look. Like everyone's fell on someone's page without, you know, everyone's kind of exploring all the time. So it's got to thinking like, well, maybe I could take it to the next level. Like I kind of felt like I'd reached a peak in the UK. And I used to do my mum's hair like trying to make a look like a Hollywood star. That's kind of, I guess it was always the goal. So maybe I could do Hollywood stars. So I moved to America. I just moved to America. I just

Starting point is 00:43:11 moved to London. So I was in a small town, I was in a small town called Lester. It was like two hours away. I moved to London. I had a little apartment. I packed two suitcases and just moved. I left everything. I left all my memories really. But again, that was me running. I moved to America to I guess, you know, further my career, but also probably to escape where I was out in my life of coming out and stuff. I arrived to America and I, you know, I felt pretty good about it. And I wait for the phone to ring and it, well, it didn't ring. So it'd been maybe three, four months and America was expensive and it was big. And I remember crying. I was thinking, God, I failed. Like, I didn't get the call. You know, a lot of people go to Hollywood. It's the land

Starting point is 00:43:54 of dreams, right? But it's also the land of like failures, you know. And I was like, I don't what I'm going to do. And one day, I got a call to do Christine Aguilera's hair for the voice. And I was like, okay, cool, this is it. This is my moment. I'm, okay, I'm ready for this. And so I started to research Christina Aguilera and I'm like, it made me feel awful. So I turned up to the voice and I was like, I'm going to do this. I felt pretty confident.

Starting point is 00:44:16 There was three hours for glam, which sounds like a long time, but usually like management are pulling in one area. They're doing pictures. It's, you know, it's not that long. So the makeup artist went in and an hour went by and I was still waiting

Starting point is 00:44:27 outside. So I was thinking, well, maybe there's, maybe someone's doing hair and I'm like finishing it or back up. I don't really know what was happening, but I was trying to just kind of gauge what was going on to make good impressions. Two hours went by and I was still sitting outside. So I'm like, well,

Starting point is 00:44:42 I don't know what's happening. And I was terrified by that point because I'd sat for two hours. So the last 20 minutes before the live show of the voice, she calls me him. So in my head, I was like, her hair is probably going to be done because what else could the, it's only 20 minutes. I mean, what else is going to happen, right? Well, it wasn't done. And it was ready to be done. So I'm like, oh, okay, so she's like, what do you want to do? And I was like, what I want to do is have two hours like that but you know she was like doing press stuff and it was just that was the situation sometimes that's what happened so i was like i had all these hair pieces prepped and i thought oh that would be a really quick way of like you know kind of getting this looking great fast and i was like if ever

Starting point is 00:45:19 tried these weeks she was like i don't like oh yeah sure that yeah course you don't yeah why would you like what would you like anything i'm got to do and i was like i swear to you now i remember thinking oh she sees me she sees that 10 year old kid they used to do my mom's hair she sees right she sees right right through. She's worked with everyone. She sees right through me. She's like the first Hollywood star I'm working with. And I just felt, and I remember it on my chest. It was like in my stomach. It went up to my chest. And I felt like it going through my arms. I felt like I couldn't move. And there was 20 minutes and I'm like, there's probably 15 minutes now. So I start doing this thing that hairdressers do wear that. It just like kind of move your hair. Like a hairdresser stands behind

Starting point is 00:45:55 you, a hairdresser just kind of moving your hair like this. And I was like, I was kind of hoping something was going to happen. It's the only time this has ever happened to me. Never happened since. And I'm not a hugely spiritual, like, person like that, but there was this moment where it was like, the only way I can describe it, it was like in a world of haze. It was like the clouds parted above me in the trailer of the voice. And I heard Kate's voice and she said, if you don't do this and make this work, you're going to have to come home. And I just thought about my kids. And it's like it put me back in my adult body. It's like I, instead of being 10 years old, I was like back to being Chris, who had.

Starting point is 00:46:36 to spend 20 years learning their craft, knew exactly what they were doing. And I thought, if I don't make this work, I'm going to always kick myself. So I got one of the wigs and I was like, let me, she was going to just try this because we've prepped all these pieces. And I put one on her and she was like, oh, she was like, oh. And she was like, I like it. And then the stylist was like it. So there was probably 10 minutes. And I buried a hair under this wig and she ran off on the stage. And then I sat there because then it's out to the world. And there's, we know social media. They're always going to have an opinion. And it was different. So they were definitely going to have an opinion and sat there waiting and there was a little break.

Starting point is 00:47:09 She came off and she just looked over at me and she was like, everyone likes your wig and then carried on talking to the contestant. And in that moment, it was the moment where I knew I'd done it. And I tell you, I swear to you now, if I'd have given in to that feeling that everyone has of fear and self abandonment and just shame and I just felt so small, I definitely wouldn't have written this book. I wouldn't be here now. I wouldn't have done any.

Starting point is 00:47:35 I would still be in the UK. And I'd probably still be living that version of my life that people told me I was. And I'm not saying that we all have those moments where we're triggered. But it's just about learning lessons to be able to come back to yourself. Unfortunately, I had people in my life like Kate, who reminded me of who I was when I didn't even know myself. That's a great story. Yeah. Kind of makes me feel sad.

Starting point is 00:47:57 But it makes me just feel sad that I was so not present for so much in my life. Why sad? You know, because I think I'm not present for so much in my life. everyone deserves to be seen. And I think I was so, I don't know, I was so fixated on trying to make other people happy and trying to do the right thing. And I just wasn't doing that for myself. You know, I think I was, I was in an abusive relationship, but it was with myself because professionally it was great. It was, it motivated me to be the best, don't fail. But emotionally, it was just like abandonment, you know?

Starting point is 00:48:33 And I made a career out of making people look and feel their best, see themselves in their mirror. And I, it doesn't work like on your personal level because there's an amount of self-abandonment you do with that. And I think it's really sad. It's really sad that, you know, that guy didn't feel like he deserved to be there, you know, in the room. And I think a lot of people feel like they don't deserve to be in the room.

Starting point is 00:48:55 I mean, you talk about imposter syndrome in your book. Yeah. Yeah. And I know I have felt that, especially doing this job, you know, where it's just, you know, I feel like I'm just delusional enough, you know, I have a just enough of why not me. Yeah. And then once you get to that spot, you're just like, how the fuck am I here and why? You know, kind of that like.

Starting point is 00:49:20 Yeah. How have you been able to work through that imposter syndrome to the point where, again, you're Christine Aguilera, Kim Kardashian, Jennifer. Lopez, you're working at the Met Gala. I mean, at some point, how have you been able to just look in the mirror and say, I belong? And, you know, you've talked about you wanted to be the best, you know, and focus. How did you go from that person who kept doubting yourself and questioning your existence and your place in the world to recognizing that you were there through all your dedication

Starting point is 00:49:55 and hard work and all the, just the little things you've done? done to have the skill set you have to, you know, make Christina Aguilera look great in 15 minutes when you thought you had two hours. Like, how have you been able to get to that place? I had to go right back to the beginning. Right back to that kid at 12 that I abandoned. I had to go back and understand him, like, understand that I did that, understand. Because I felt so confused of like how my life changed so dramatically. I didn't feel like I had any control of it. So I had to just go back and I think there's a level of self-love I just didn't have at all. It was a void because I didn't allow myself to.

Starting point is 00:50:38 So I think going back to that younger version of myself and seeing myself as a young kid that was struggling. And instead of speaking so poorly to myself and saying like, you know, the worst shit like that we all do, no one could speak worse to yourself than yourself. You know, like instead maybe he needed to hear it was going to be okay. and that although you felt misunderstood and different, that one day that would be like your superpower, you know, and that was really kind of comforting to be able to do that for myself. And I think the reason I did that is because I kept getting myself into situations, like relationships, friendships,

Starting point is 00:51:12 making decisions that just didn't serve me and I wasn't happy in. So I really needed to change that pattern. So I had to look at why I was doing it. And it all stemmed from that point of, you know, not being truly aligned with who I was or not being allowed to, allowed to make mistakes and not being allowed to figure it out. And now I can, for a long time, I'd be in a relationship just because I couldn't stand being on my own.

Starting point is 00:51:37 Because being on my own, he had to be with yourself, you have to look at yourself. And I felt very uncomfortable. Now I've been single for two years, and it's been probably the best solid two years in my life, because I'm happy to say it. I also value my life.

Starting point is 00:51:51 I really value my relationship with my kids. I mean, that's always been there, but I think I'm way more protective of our bubble now, whereas before I'd be like, let people, oh, they're cute, we'll figure it out, love's enough, and now I'm just not as naive, because I'm like, well, love isn't enough. And, you know, I really want to protect my world. Because when someone's in it and you're not aligned, it can be a terrible place. So I think I just learned to protect my circle and the people that are in it. As you should, and everyone should, I didn't get given those tools that I was a kid.

Starting point is 00:52:20 You know, I didn't know that you had the permission to do this. that because it was always about everyone else. What is your relationship like with the internet and how do you not allow response or criticism to like get in your head and make you feel like oh my god, did I do a bad job on that hair? Should I not have done that? How do you not let the internet opinions affect you? I think I love a good conversation. I don't know. I don't know. I just don't feel too connected to it. I think 10 years ago I would have. When I did the Jay Shetty podcast and I talked about when I came out,

Starting point is 00:52:59 I spoke about my relationship with Kate and I saw some negative comments that were like, you always know, you always knew, you ruined her life. What a selfish person. You're evil. And for a second, I was really triggered. And I rang my PR, Alex, who's probably listening to this now. I was like, this is horrible. Like, I was back to that.

Starting point is 00:53:22 I was back to like when I came out, 26. Shame. Fuck, I knew everyone is going to, I like did the wrong thing. Like, what did I do? No one understands. You know, I guess it got a lot of attention. When something goes viral, I guess you have to understand. There's going to be a mixture of opinions.

Starting point is 00:53:36 Not everyone knows you. They just know what they saw in that 10 second clip or whatever it is. So that kind of, I mean, Alex was great. I just saying, Chris, this is just, that's what the internet is like. When you put yourself out there. And I know that, you know, to an extent. And I was fine with that on like, if someone says they didn't like the hairstyle or if they say, you've got two abs, not six. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:53:55 Like I was okay with that because it was a sort of cosmetic version of my life. But when it was my real inside, it's secret. I'd had my whole life. And I felt incredibly triggered. But it didn't last long. I came back to myself because I know who I am as an adult. I've done the work. So it doesn't really affect me.

Starting point is 00:54:15 I don't feel like I'm easily pushed now. whereas before I would have felt, you know, whereas now I can come back to myself and be like, you know what I'm doing what I used to do. I'm just triggered. I'm going back to that place. In actual fact, I know how I'm and I can come back to myself. So you always have that voice. It's just I can turn it down now. And I think regarding the internet, look, you know, I read comments all the time and there's a certain amount of humor I put to it as well because sometimes I think, God, what are you doing? Like, right? It's got the energy for this. And I'll tell you now, I also think from experience, because if I've ever felt, you know, in those random moments,

Starting point is 00:54:49 you've seen something, you're like, I really want to say like, yeah, well, you don't deserve that. Obviously, you don't write it, but, you know, there's odd moments for human. We've all had them. I hope, have you guys had them? Yeah. Okay. But, you know, instead, like, I think I try and, like, that would probably have been coming from a place of envy or jealousy or what it is.

Starting point is 00:55:08 And I think that's really not attractive. So I think I try and catch myself and I'd always be like, what is it about them I like, what they're doing? in their career or in the way they look or who they're dating or whatever it is and try and flip it and make it healthy and turn it into something positive because the alternative is really fucking miserable. So I think, you know, there's sometimes when people are so mean, I think it's just too far from me. I don't really connect to that. But a good conversation, I'm here for it. I'm all right. If you don't like my hair brown and you like it about a blonde,

Starting point is 00:55:40 that's cool. Honestly, you pull off both. Sometimes he's done to his face. Like he looks so much better with blonde hair. I was reading these comments the other day and I just was laughing because I look in the mirror and I like what I see. And I'm all right with that. There's plenty of things that are wrong with it. But I like what I see and that's good. You know, for a long time I didn't.

Starting point is 00:56:01 A lot of time I'd be like, fuck, I've got to change my haircloth to go back. Now I'm like, it's just an opinion. All right. Guys, if you haven't heard of Forer Travel, well, I got something new and exciting to tell you. The forward travel's mission is to power the next generation of travel entrepreneurs by providing a modern tech forward platform that equips passionate individuals with tools, training, and support to build successful, flexible travel businesses, making travel advising accessible and profitable for a broader audience. They aim to revolutionize the industry by combining

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Starting point is 00:57:47 Heartbreak is such a difficult thing to get over, especially a marriage that goes wrong because, you know, when you get married, you're thinking endgame, right? Yeah, absolutely. Even when you get engaged and then when it doesn't work, out, there's always this thought of like, I never thought this could happen to me. And then you, you know, the labels of society, you start projecting onto yourself. How did you work through that potential self-judgment and the sense of potential failure of a relationship not working out the way you had hoped? And yeah, how did you, for all the people who listen to the show,

Starting point is 00:58:23 who are dealing with heartbreak, who have a hard time picking up the pieces and moving on, what was the process you went through to try to work through that in a healthy way, to not let that relationship didn't work out, not, you know, it's like that failed, but you're not a failure, you know? It's just that relationship clearly didn't serve you. And a lot of times, leaving something like that requires a lot of bravery and a lot of strength. And how are you able to recognize that?

Starting point is 00:58:52 I think a lot of the time, like, I think people are really complicated and relationships are hard work and I think everyone brings baggage into relationships. I think going for it publicly is obviously quite intense, you know, for everyone's having an opinion on your private life. I mean, if you relate it to the book, like I talk as a chapter in the book about the breakup haircut. Like it's one of the red flags of haircuts when someone comes in and they're going for a breakup, like cut it off. I want to get rid of it. I want to cut it. I want to go blonde. I want to do it today. Oh my God. All right. all the time they want to do something really dramatic because usually you want to cut away the

Starting point is 00:59:29 version of yourself as hurting and you're in pain and I'm not afraid to say I've been in pain plenty of times through plenty of plenty of breakups and I think the only way I've ever dealt with it is just to go right through it I like to really understand it I like want to understand why did I go into that relationship why did I make that decision and how do I stop doing that? Because there's a pattern that I'm attracted to that I keep getting pulled towards but it doesn't work. And like again, when you trace it back, a lot of the time, it's things you've seen in your childhood that you thought was the right thing to do. And that's the normal way. And like, you have to unlearn those patterns. So I think in answer to your question, it was just about

Starting point is 01:00:06 going right through it. And I think I was, I think in the past I've been addicted to making people feel good, feel loved, feel seen. And I just didn't know I could do that for myself, I didn't know I could have that self-love, which is really sad. So I guess in a way, you could say I was, yeah, I mean, I guess if I was addicted to love, you know, I was addicted to giving other people it. And that causes all sorts of problems of self-abandonment of, like, accepting things that you would never normally and like, thinking love is enough, because the truth is, the sad part of it is love just isn't. It's about compatibility. It's about honesty, loyalty and putting in the work. Putting in the work. Yeah. And, like,

Starting point is 01:00:53 There's so many situations I've been in that I thought I was going into something. I mean, I could say I'm a billionaire. It doesn't mean I am. I think I was quite naive to be like, oh, yeah, this person wants to be, they want to be the better version of themselves. They said that. You know, we'll work through it. And I mean, I think for me now, actions speak louder than words.

Starting point is 01:01:09 And that's why I've been single because whereas before I'd go into something and be really open to it. Now I'm way more like, okay. I mean, it feels a little, a little less dreamy. You know, I always felt you met the one. and you know, that was it. You're happily ever after. Now I'm a little bit more reflective.

Starting point is 01:01:29 I kind of think about like where I'm at in my life, what I need in my life, what would be aligned, what would work. And when you figure that out, the sad truth is that the pool of people is way smaller. But you're way more selective. I describe it like buying a house. You know, when you first get a house when you're a kid, you get like a place and you're like, I love it. Like I want to live forever's got doors and windows.

Starting point is 01:01:50 I want my own key and it's mine and I can do what I want. And as you get older and you buy a second house and a third house, you realize things you do and don't like. Like, I like big windows with lots of light because that apartment I lived in in a basement was dark the whole time. You get refined. You refine your search. If you're, you know, developing as a person, which hopefully you are and learning by your mistakes, you refine your search. So once you refine your search, there's less houses that are going to work because just any house doesn't work. And I think that's the place, you know, I'm out in my life now.

Starting point is 01:02:19 I think I just, I know what's good for me. I know where I'm out of my life. And I'm open to it, but just not going to give it away, you know. You just had a thought listening to your talk. I mean, you know, throughout this whole interview, you've talked about how you, you know, just from the beginning of being a nine-year-old boy, making your mom feel good. Yeah. And when you're doing people's hair, you, you see this visceral reaction to them.

Starting point is 01:02:42 And I'm an access service guy. That's my love language. It's how I show love. It's how I like to receive love. But, you know, throughout my years, I've kind of realized that I was often in relationships where I knew how to show the love, you know, but I wasn't, I wasn't open to receiving it. And I'm wondering for you, as someone whose whole profession was centered around making people feel good, I imagine you carry that into your personal relationships. And did you ever find yourself in relationships where you were, you felt like you were taking care of them more than they were also taking care of you? Yeah, like the dynamics are.

Starting point is 01:03:18 I think when I look back on my relationships, I think I definitely, I know what my toxic trait was. I think it was basically thinking I could fix people or even felt like I should. Like, why would anyone want to do that? Yeah. But I think as a young kid, I did my mom's hair, she stood up looking at the mirror, I felt some.

Starting point is 01:03:37 I was like, oh wow, I get to make her feel someone that was sad and had like, she had quite a lot of depression and she had a really, rightly so. She had a terrible childhood. But I got to fix that for a minute. I got to fix it. And that for me was really, I loved it. I loved making people feel something.

Starting point is 01:03:53 And I, but like I say, when you put that into a relationship, it doesn't really work. You know, it doesn't, you can't, it's not my job to fix people. I just don't want to anymore. You know, I think I'm allergic to that stuff now. Like, whereas before I'd be, like, drawn to it. Now it's like, it's like you're an ex-alcoholic. It's like, ah, that drink looks really good. I still get attracted to it.

Starting point is 01:04:13 I'm still like, whew. But I'm like, quickly, like, uh, That's not good. I know where that goes. And I do never want to be there again. You know, so you just learn to avoid it and move on. And yeah, maybe the highs are not as high and the lows are not as low, but it's a more consistent place to be. Did you have to learn kind of how to exist in the same room as celebrities? Or was that something that you walked in and you were like, I know my place. I know what I'm supposed to do. You know, it's really, I usually try and bring humor into a lot of things. do. I fucked up so many times. So funny. I remember I worked with Katie Perry. So shortly after

Starting point is 01:04:52 Christina Aguilera, I worked with Arana Grande. I did these like hoops in there. Remember the hair hoop things? And that became a thing. And then it became this kind of role on effect. And it was quite fast and furious. And I got Katie Perry for the Metball. And she wanted this kind kind of like shingong thing in her head. And she was very particular about what she wanted and how it was. So I got a hotel room. I prep for like two days. The whole hotel was like pear pieces. I needed it to be like not frizzy. I wanted it to be smooth and polished and I needed to do it fast and efficiently. I couldn't be fiddling around trying to fix it. So I was really like, you know, worked hard at knowing what I was doing. Turned up on the day and she had black hair at the time and I used this like padding.

Starting point is 01:05:29 It's like a donut like that you put underneath. And my assistant at the time brought a blonde one and she had black hair. So I'm like, oh, fuck. So I was like, oh, I know I'll do what she hairdressers do. I was like, I'll spray it black. So I sprayed it black and I was like, it's all good. I caught this. did it. Like, she loved it. I was like, wow, this is great. I feel good. And I walked away and I remember thinking like, oh,

Starting point is 01:05:52 it's going good. And I remember I looked down the minds. I was like, oh my God, my hands are black. It's crazy. Like from the spray, right? And then I looked in the mirror. I was like, oh, my God,

Starting point is 01:06:01 her face is black as well. You know, it's all in my face. So I walked over to Katie. The makeup artist was like, if looks could kill and she's looking at me. And this is like the Met Boy, it's the biggest carpet. He just bleached her brows.

Starting point is 01:06:13 And this. black stuff just kept coming. It kept dusting down all over her face. You look, she'd been chimney sweeping, you know, for sure. So I'm like, Mary Babbins. Oh, my God. Like, I mean, I think the makeup artist

Starting point is 01:06:24 literally wanted to kill me. And like, you, I don't know, I've just always had this sort of way of bringing humor to it and trying to sort of laugh. But also, I've always just been very professional. Like, I know I'm there to provide a service. And so I'll just, I don't know, I've always gone in with, like, quite a focused head.

Starting point is 01:06:41 I'm always prepped. I had J-Lo the other day for the Golden Glover. I'm not seen it for a minute. Again, like, I was before the Golden Globes, I was nervous. I said to my sister, I said, I'm nervous today. In fact, I said, I said, it's my trainer. And I was like, I'm nervous. And he says, why are you nervous?

Starting point is 01:06:53 He said, I got J-Lo. He's like, dude, you're the king of hair. What the fuck? He's nervous. And I was like, yeah, I still get nervous. He said, you still get nervous. I said, every time. I don't know why.

Starting point is 01:07:01 I think he's because I care. Yeah. Because you're only as good as your last gig. I was thinking about before this interview. You got nervous? Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, yeah.

Starting point is 01:07:08 You just... But I think that's a great place to be in it because I feel like the time that you don't, it's the time is done. Yeah. Like, if you don't, you know what I mean? Like, you want it to be good, like... You want it to be different.

Starting point is 01:07:18 You want it to be unique and... 100%. You know, you just like, what happens if I get stuck, you know, and a feeling, but yeah, you just... It's also such a relatable feeling, you know, of like feeling nervous. And it's like you look at someone like you and you're like, there's no way, you know,

Starting point is 01:07:34 you'd be nervous after all these celebrities, after all these years. And so to hear that you... you still do is like, oh, wow, he, you know, he's human. He's one of us. Oh, 100%. And like, you know, we always, we all have that like, feeling of like, they're going to see us, they're going to see that. I don't really know what I'm doing. And I don't, but I just think like you can learn to turn, like I say, the book is a lot about that. It's about learning to turn that voice down, come back to yourself from someone that's just been through it all at the highest stakes, you know?

Starting point is 01:08:01 You, uh, you mentioned J-Lo and you, before we started recording, you mentioned that you were doing her hair for that iconic green dress moment. Oh, yeah. It's one of the best moments ever. I mean, it's so interesting to see something like that come to life. And everyone was going, everyone was so happy. And like most fashion people are like, you know, glasses and it was up and smiling and like cheesy smiling. Even Anna Wintel was, I don't think I've ever seen Anna Wintel smile. She was smiling and applauding.

Starting point is 01:08:25 I mean, to be a part of that, it's pretty special. But even today, I got my book and I opened a box. It's the first time I'd seen the book because I had like a fake version of it. And I read the back and it was from Chris Jenner. And she wrote the foreword. And I'm like, wow, Chris Jenner wrote my forward. That's really amazing. God, I'd be really proud of myself as a kid.

Starting point is 01:08:41 You know what I mean? I kind of have those thoughts now. Like, I still have those moments. What was that conversation like when you asked Chris to write the forward? She said, I was really nothing. I'd text. I said, I'd like, babe, would you do this? Like, I understand if you don't want to.

Starting point is 01:08:53 It's completely fine. If you're way too busy to even respond, it's fine. Don't even respond. Just block me. It's fine. If it goes green, I know you don't want to talk. And she's like, oh my God, I would be honored. I mean, I have to say Chris is, I've known Chris for a long time.

Starting point is 01:09:08 And I bursted her hair after many years of working with Kim only recently. I think it was last year. It was the first time after working with Kim for however many years. And Kim's thinking, you're doing my mom's hair while we're in Paris. You know, she just likes to blow out, whatever. Of course. And so she sat down in the chair and like at five fucking whatever o'clock in the morning. It is.

Starting point is 01:09:28 I'm like, five of a lot. Okay. And everyone's like, they'd be like, 4.45 because she'll be in the chairway. And I got in the chair. I got in there at 45. She's sitting there. Hi. I'm like, oh, God, I'm late.

Starting point is 01:09:37 am I late? And like, you don't want to be late. So I like, I tend to be late. So I was like, so, you know, I've never been that guy that's like, what are we doing today? Same as usual. Because I saw how people reacted in the salon. Like, that's that one moment where you're maybe open to change and seeing something more. And there's nothing worse than someone coming over to you and going, same as usual. And you're like, okay, sure. Yeah. That's why I write about the book, this word called fine. I hate the word fine. It's such a like middle of the ground place to be. And it's like, you probably feel terrible, but people say, how are you? You say, I'm fine.

Starting point is 01:10:09 You know, someone cuts all your hair off and you know they're cutting it too short. Do you like it? Yeah, it's fine. You know, how do I look? We look like shit, but I feel fine. I think it's just one of those words. So she was like, just blow it out. And I was like, Chris, this is the first time I'm doing your hair.

Starting point is 01:10:24 This brand new face. She looks so good. Yeah. I'm not going to blow your hair out. Let's do a wig. I've got this one from Christina Aguilera. Let's do a look. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:10:34 And she's like, oh. Oh, and you know, I actually did this event with her and she actually cried when she was telling this story. She said, because, you know, she said, like, I had my hair, this short hair cut my whole life. And Chris, like, stopped and took the time to, like, see a different version of me and bring that out. And she said, I'm so grateful for that because, like, he stopped and saw me beyond what he knew and enabled her to, you know, evolve into something else. And, like, now she has a longer hair and she tries to belong. So, like, you know, for her 70, she had, like, a hair pinned up. And she's been loving it.

Starting point is 01:11:06 But, you know, even someone like Chris Jenna, you know, people get put in boxes. And like, you know, it's, it's such a human feeling to want to be able to move on and evolve. And she's done such an amazing job with her story. She's not hiding it. She's not trying to pretend she didn't have her old face. I think it's great. She was so open about it. She's always with the internet.

Starting point is 01:11:26 And she's having fun doing it, you know. So it shows you that at any age, a lot of people think you're too old over the age of 30 to change. which is not true because you can transform your life at any age, you know. You've worked with obviously so many highly successful people, Chris Jenner, Kim Kardashian, J-Lo. What is the best piece of either personal or professional advice you've ever gotten from a client? Oh, personal advice? Probably from Kim. She's told me so many things.

Starting point is 01:11:58 Like, she's just really caring and kind, you know, and helps guide. you know, if you have a question, if she's not sure, you know, lots. I don't know. I mean, like I said, I'm kind of like a sponge and you do become, you know, you're like a friendship there and, you know, it's organic that you have conversations and she's, you know, through hard times in my life or her life. I know you're a part of it because you're always together, you know. I don't know. I can't think of one. I can't say it. I do. I do. I can feel really good ones she told me. Yeah, I do feel like. Yeah. This is. I feel like I'm always like spilling my deepest darkest secrets when I sit down in the, it's like, you're like in a therapist chair when you sit down in the hair salon and you're like. So you open up. Yeah. So that's why you got him to brush your hair. Like, Nick, I'm going to open up to you. Like we need to talk. We brush my hair. Nick, brush my hair. I want to talk. Is there any celebrity or client you've worked with that you feel has surprised you in a great way where maybe the public perception of them is is not what you've gotten to know. as their friend and stylist. Oh, I think everyone, I think everyone has such a small sort of amount of information that they take and then they assume this person is that way.

Starting point is 01:13:13 I get to see people behind the scenes. And, you know, I think people are so quick to say, this person's a diva or this person's this. And, like, you know, they saw two seconds of, like, what their day was and the sort of build up towards that moment. And that's unfortunate thing is everyone's waiting for someone to say the wrong thing

Starting point is 01:13:31 and use that clip or the wrong moment be in the wrong situation and they kind of want to, but that's kind of the internet. So, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think I have a very different version of Jailor or Kim or Ariana or Dool-Leep or whoever it is, you know, that I've worked with than maybe what, you know, the public would have just from that small information

Starting point is 01:13:47 because they're human beings who interact and, you know, there's a friendship there. And after I think everyone I've worked with, have all been great people and I've learned something from all of them, for sure. And if there was someone that didn't, I probably wouldn't work with them again. But no, I can't say I've ever had that.

Starting point is 01:14:02 Is there anyone you, haven't worked with that's kind of on your dream list? Who's on my dream list? Oh, yeah, I know exactly who. I sat next to it at a table the other day. Pamela Anderson was always such a, when I was a kid, I remember getting the little bay watch. It was like a little candy, like box, and you got a card.

Starting point is 01:14:24 And I always wanted, what was the name? Was it CJ? CJ, CJ. I always wanted Pamela, but it was Pamela. You know, because she was just this like, I don't know, I was so into her. And I remember I went to this vent of a night. I was with Creschelle, actually, my friend.

Starting point is 01:14:38 And I said, I really want to see Pamela. And I don't get star-struck. I don't know why. I guess because I work with people and I know it. They're just people. But there's something about Pamela that's like a childhood thing about me. So it feels like she's Pamela Anderson. And I walked in the hotel and she was there.

Starting point is 01:14:55 And she'd just gone back blonde. And then I was walking and we ended up in the same elevator. And I was like, oh, I love your hair. She's just gone back blonde. And she's like, oh, thank you. I just had to get rid of that. that old, you know, this other character. And I'm like, cool.

Starting point is 01:15:05 And then we bumped into each other again on the carpet. And then we ended up sitting next to each of her. And I just was like, oh, I was like, I really want to take a picture. But I didn't. And then I just said to her at the end of her, oh, fuck it. I said, you know, I'd love to do hair one day. And she's like, oh, cool. Yeah, I'd be great.

Starting point is 01:15:22 I said, do you know I do. And she's like, yeah, I know. Yeah, I guess she knows who I am. This is like, of course. She was like, yeah, we should do it. And we had like a little kiss after. And not a kiss like that. Of course.

Starting point is 01:15:32 You're British. I would. No, of course. We wouldn't. Would you? Oh, my God. CJ? I grew up.

Starting point is 01:15:41 I mean, I'd probably go back to 20-year-old cricket. No, not at all. But I definitely, I mean, I don't know. Yeah, it was great. It's nice at those moments. Fun. That is fun that you still get to have. Yeah, totally.

Starting point is 01:15:55 Chris, this has been so much fun, man. Thank you, but having me. I have to say, you guys, great. I love your guys' relationship and connection. You guys have a good duo going on. I've had a really nice time. We know what we do. And it's honestly,

Starting point is 01:16:08 conversations like this make it so fun and enjoyable and just hearing people's stories. You know, what you've been able to accomplish is, like I said, from the start, like truly inspirational. And I think the world needs more stories like yours

Starting point is 01:16:22 and reasons to believe in themselves. And if people are listening to this and sitting in a place where they're just, you know, hearing those voices or just, you know, something doesn't feel right. Like you, you are a great example of someone who, you know, can be in that place and you can do something about it. You just have to start. And, you know,

Starting point is 01:16:42 I always say shavings make a pile. And, and, yeah, I just, I really appreciate you sharing that story. One step at a time. Yeah. Well, the book is, Your Roots Don't Define You. It's out January 20th. Pre-orders are available now anywhere you pre-order a book. So be sure to pre-order Chris's. We'll put the link in our show description. So make it easy for you. be sure to check it out. It's an excellent read. It's an easy read. If you're someone like me who likes to listen to the book, you can listen to this beautiful voice. Read it to you. My husky, it's right out a voice from all these podcasts. Chris, thanks so much, man. Thank you so much for helping me, guys.

Starting point is 01:17:15 Cheers. Bye-bye.

The Viall Files - E1062 - Going Deeper with Chris Appleton

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