The Viall Files - E107 No Panic Pandemic with Ben Calvert, PHD

Episode Date: March 18, 2020

Today we wanted to talk about the coronavirus with an expert, so we brought in Ben Calvert. He has a Ph.D. in cellular immunology, specializes in innate immunity and respiratory disease, and trained at GSK Medicines Research Centre in the UK. We ask him about rumors we’ve heard, discuss what we should be doing to help stop the spread, and talk about a vaccine. Stay safe out there, and stay inside! Get your Viall Files merch at https://shop.viallfiles.com. THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: FIGS: https://www.wearfigs.com CODE: VIALL15 THERAGUN: https://www.theragun.com/viall  DIPSEA: http://dipseastories.com/viall See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What is going on everybody? Happy Wednesday to you all. I hope you guys are all being safe out there, staying inside when you can. staying inside when you can. With that said, we have a special episode, uniquely special, as we thought given what's going on in the world today with the coronavirus and all the information that's out there and a lot of the fear that's out there and a lot of the misinformation that's out there. We thought we would spend a little time this episode talking to an expert, a scientist, a PhD, someone who works in this field to have a conversation about the coronavirus and things we should be mindful of and just try to learn a little bit about what we can do and what to take seriously and what not to maybe be afraid of because it's a scary time out there.

I think everyone's a little worried about what this is. And so, yeah, we have a great guest, Ben Calvert. Rochelle, actually, is friends that she met through the cystic fibrosis community. Yeah, he's working on a cure actually for cystic fibrosis. So he works on the lungs and he works in a lab and he does experiments. And that's the extent of what I understand about what he does. He talks a little bit more specifically about that, but he deals with viruses and he seems to specialize in the immune system. Yeah, and respiratory issues.

And respiratory issues of which both the coronavirus affects. And he told me he's doing a lot of consulting for people about what's going on. So I thought he would be a good fit. So yeah, it's definitely a different type of episode that we have for you today, but we thought it would make sense. And our goal, at least my goal was to, let's try to talk to the people we should be talking to

and hear from the people that are experts. I have to say I've been disappointed in like members of Bachelor Nation who've been just so blatantly still going out on their social media i think part of it too is um it's it's a little ignorance i mean again i said this in the episode you know a week and a half ago um when people were talking about the coronavirus i was one of those people being like oh everyone's overreacting. And, you know, we've heard of SARS before. We've heard of the swine flu.

That never really affected us like this is affecting us. And I think when people were hearing about it in China and other parts of the world, we just assumed this wouldn't affect us. And I think... But now, if you're still going out now, it's like, what are you doing? Yeah, well, that's the thing. We're not trying to point fingers here. We're just trying to make everyone understand, right?

Like what they can do. This is not necessarily about whether you're susceptible or whether you're at risk. It's about, this is kind of a social responsibility right now. It's doing your part to protect your neighbors, people you don't know, people you've never met. And so I think that's just our goal for this episode is just to try to get us all more information. So we don't create more fear than needs to be, but we also stop doing things that are foolish or maybe a little ignorant.

And if you have a platform or make sure your friends know too, just to promote this idea of not going out. Yeah. I think we need to stop going out there. It'd be interesting what Facebook or Instagram does, if anything, about people who are out there on social media saying- Oh, interesting. Oh, I'm out there drinking, you know, it's fine.

I'm super healthy, you know, like, you know. So, yeah, I hope you guys enjoy this. I hope you find it informative. We're learning as well. And Ben was very helpful and we had a nice conversation with him. And again, my goal was to try to help reduce the fear that's out there. And information helps us. Information makes things less scary. As Ben suggested,

this isn't the end of the world. But there are things we can do to help with the long-term impact that we have worldwide. And I know this is kind of a silly thing to talk about considering what the subject of today is, but what are your thoughts on, you know what I'm gonna ask, Tyler and Hannah are supposedly together. Is this a bad time to be talking about it?

No, I think it's, no. Are you surprised? I have no opinion. No opinion? Who knows? talking about it? No, I think it's, no. Are you surprised? I have no opinion. No opinion. Who knows? I think it's entirely possible they could be dating. It's also entirely possible they're just friends. Okay. You know? That's true, that's true.

I have no idea. Right. But yes, I mean, we always joke. I mean, obviously Illy at chris's events she's a nice person you know right she didn't disappoint in person i i thought she'd be cool in person everyone likes to think that there's always something going on okay um and just because and there's not yeah and just because um um h because Hannah and Tyler are hanging out, it's, listen, everyone who goes on in Bachelor World has a very unique experience. It's very hard for other people to relate to.

There's a lot of comfort that comes with that. Yeah. And Hannah and Tyler shared a mutual experience. Yeah. And there's a comfort level there. Does that mean they're dating? It's possible. It doesn't that mean they're dating? It's possible. It doesn't necessarily mean they're dating.

Right. And it would make, all I'm saying is it would make a lot of sense that they could just be hanging out as friends. Okay. But who knows? Who knows? I know nothing. But I've had coffee several times and hung out with Andy Dorfman several times since

the season. And not one time was there ever anything romantically going on. Okay. Same with Caitlin. Right. Same with anyone else I, on TV, had some sort of romantic relationship with. So we need to calm down. That's what you're saying.

Maybe. We're just looking for comfort in this time of unease. You don't have to calm down. I know this much. Didn't, like, Matt's friend, Tyler's friend Matt posted a picture. Did Hannah post the same picture? I don't know. I don't think they want people to calm down.

Listen, when I posted a picture of Kelly, I was totally aware of what people might say. I really enjoyed getting to meet Kelly. She's wonderful in person. But I don't think they're against people might say. And like, I really enjoyed getting to meet Kelly. She's wonderful in person. But I don't think they're against people speculating. Right? I mean, you don't put that on the internet if you mind people speculating.

You know what? And you're right. Speculation is fun. It's harmless. It's getting our mind off of things. Why not? Who cares? No harm, no foul.

So yeah, there's some levity. You don't know anything though. I really don't. I really don't. I know nothing. But people from Bachelor Nation often hang out because we have a very shared mutual experience. Solidarity.

It is comforting to hang out with some people and not have to explain yourself. Um, and that makes a lot of sense, but, uh, yeah. So,

uh, stay inside, do, do some things, uh, you know, think of creative things you can do, uh,

virtually with your friends. Be safe, everyone. I hope you enjoy this episode. Uh, and again, next week we have Penn Jillette, everyone. I hope you enjoy this episode. And again, next week, we have Penn Jillette on our Wednesday episode. And a very interesting guy.

You know, man, he was just interesting and thought-provoking. You may not agree with everything he has to say, but it's certainly interesting. But until then, I hope you enjoy this episode.

Stay safe. We'll be back with some new episodes of Ask Nick's. And I guess we'll just get through this all together. Ben, thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I really appreciate you taking the time. Before we get started,

I figured maybe it might just make the most sense to tell a little bit to the people listening about your background and kind of your expertise and why you would be a great person to have this conversation with. Sure. So I grew up in England, in the north of England, moved down to the south of England to study and start work. I did my phd at gsk's medicines research center in the uk my phd focused on innate immunity and respiratory disease what does that what does that mean kind of for the layman listening so innate immunity is basically working on your immune system and like the first line of defense okay so how the body reacts as soon as a pathogen such as a virus or a bacteria

can get into the body or onto the body, how the body reacts initially. The body will then try to process that infection and then create what's called an adaptive response, and that's the adaptive immune system. So I really focus and research on the initial response. And then respiratory is like this virus deals with the same thing, right? Which is because it affects your lungs. Absolutely.

And you specialize kind of in the respiratory, on people's respiratory systems. That's right. So I most focus on the immunity in the lungs. Gotcha. And how long have you been working in that field? So right back from 2013, I've started looking into this kind of field. 2013? Wow.

Yeah. So seven years now. So, I mean, I guess what are your, like, my hope of having you on is kind of give the audience a clearer picture of kind of what's going on, you know, in the world today, specifically when it relates to the coronavirus and try to provide people, you know, useful information, information that will help them protect themselves, their families, while at the same time not creating more fear and worry than needs to be. But it seems like more of the experts are saying how we should be taking this seriously and do our part to help limit the spread of this. And so, and that's really is my goal. So, I mean, I guess I'll just give you the floor in terms of kind of your thoughts on on where we're at right now and uh maybe give us a little insight into the coronavirus and and what people can do at home to protect themselves and make sure they're as healthy as possible

and then what they could do if uh you know if they feel sick um okay uh i guess broadly speaking this is something that's going to get worse before it gets better okay um but that's not necessarily any reason to panic okay we can and and what do you mean by that in terms of when you say getting worse so there's practically speaking if we're going to completely stop the spread, let's say tomorrow, it would require absolutely everybody going into isolation for up to two weeks, if not longer. Okay. That's impossible. That's not possible. That's not going to happen.

So infection is going to increase, most likely. And it's looking like that, you know, as we look every day that infection rates are increasing so the best thing we can do is keep up these preventative methods such as social distancing um washing your hands at every possible opportunity if you get a chance to wash your hands um try and carry a bottle of hand sanitizer if you you know you're lucky enough to get one of those and um yeah just try and be vigilant and if you're feeling infectious if you're feeling sick um the the main symptoms to look for would be uh fatigue um a dry cough and a fever if you're feeling like you have those then the best thing is to stay at home uh for two weeks if you can so yeah and i think that's where a lot of people now it's's like people are starting to, you know, if they don't feel good at all, I mean, I think everyone right now with people talking about the coronavirus, there's that immediate fear of if they have it.

Regardless if they do or don't, I mean, I know tests are limited and we're trying to identify that. But are you recommending, you know, at first just stay home as opposed to rushing to like the ER or the doctor's office? Because what could, what are hospitals and doctors able to do right now if let's say you're just, you're running a small fever and you're not feeling well? Other than testing and finding out and confirming that you might have it. out and confirming that you might might have it i would say that unless you have specific reason to go to the hospital and you're just feeling feverish um don't go the the people who should be going to the hospital of those at risk perhaps have uh pre-existing or underlying uh respiratory conditions or otherwise immunocompromised um it seems like uh patients with diabetes are somewhat susceptible as well so if

you have um of course go to hospital because this could be you know quite serious for you then absolutely go to hospital otherwise it's perhaps best to just stay at home um you know if you have some um sort of flu medication you know if you want to help with the symptoms um and kind of painkillers will you know help take away some of the symptoms for you but otherwise you just keep yourself in isolation the reason being is if everybody rushes to the hospital it's going to put a severe burden on the health care system you know tests are limited and tests take time the more tests that are required to do at the same time the longer the results are going to take. And that puts a risk at those patients who really need to take the test, those that are really at risk.

Figs! Listen, our healthcare professionals, we owe them a lot, especially in these times, but it doesn't mean they can't look fancy and comfortable. Yeah. Get them a gift right now, please. For all the people in the healthcare industry, they could use a little love. They could use a lot of love. So get them a gift. And if you want to get them a gift,

what better thing to give them than something they have to wear literally 24-7 nowadays? Yeah. Can you tell us about the ones you have? Well, they are gray and comfortable and I wear them constantly around the house what style grocery store i got the joggers and uh yeah they're great i don't know people i feel like yeah i told you i get a little extra attention when i wear scrubs to the grocery store yeah but the pants i feel like they're just casual like you can wear them on the plane they

don't look like scrubs necessarily no they look they look great. Yeah. No, I mean, they look like fancy leisure wear. Yeah. And are they soft? They're wonderful. Oh, good. I wear them constantly. They're very comfortable. Love them.

Yeah, I love them. They have tons of pockets. Some include over 10 pockets, which is super useful if you're in the medical industry. So is there a doctor in the house or a vet tech or a radiologist or useful if you're in the medical industry. So is there a doctor in the house or a vet tech or a radiologist or any other awesome human in the medical industry? And even if you don't work in the medical industry, you definitely know someone that does and should tell them about or gift them some figs. That's right. Listeners of the Vial Files are getting 15% off for a limited time. Go to wherefigs.com. That's W-E-A-R-F-I-G-S.com

and enter code V-I-A-L-L 15 at checkout. Dipsy, sexy stories for you. I'm loving this Dipsy. Dipsy is made by women for women and get your sexy stories on. There's not enough stuff made for us. No, there's not. I think it's great.

I've heard some of these sexy stories. And I got to say, I know they're not for me. I kind of enjoy them. You can still enjoy them. They are relatable and immersive. So you feel like you're right there. And there's also something for everyone. So you can find a story that speaks specifically to you.

What's also awesome is they add new content each week so that there's always more stories to explore. So if you want to get your groove back on, you should definitely download the app. I think this is great for our audience, especially all the people call in. Totally. It gives you ideas, things to try with your partner, things to try with yourself. You know, close your eyes, have a good time. For our listeners of the show, Dipsy is offering a 30-day free trial

when you go to dipsystories.com slash V-I-A-L-L. So there's no reason not to try this fun experience. That's a 30-day free trial when you go to D-I-P-S-E-A stories.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Dipsystories.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Have some fun with the sexy time. Why aren't the tests more readily available? So from what I understand, the government have chosen to acquire their own testing procedures and testing kits over choosing that of the testing kits available by the World Health Organization. Oh. So that is really limited tests available.

To sort of put it into perspective, I believe South Korea are doing something around 20 20 000 tests per day whereas it's taken about three months for the u.s to reach that number okay so yeah tests here in the the u.s are limited until testing kits are made more available so until then it's you know it's going to be a slow grinding process to test i i don't know i don't know if this would be helpful to people listening like i never even knew honestly until um i heard about the coronavirus that people even got tested for the flu and what what makes uh are these certain types of tests uh specific the coronavirus versus the flu i mean what uh i guess like in terms like, how do they test for that versus, like, say, if you were to test for strep or anything like that? Like, what, why are there only specific types of tests as opposed to just going in and, like, running, like, a positive, negative test on, like, anything you'd go in for? I don't know much about that in terms of why is there, like, a finite number of tests?

Like, what's entailed into the testing so the the testing is for for both cases requires what's called a pcr that stands for polymerase chain reaction okay so what happens is a healthcare professional your doctor or nurse will take a swab of your cheek or the back of your throat, maybe a nasal swab, that will isolate some of the virus particles. From that, a biomedical scientist will isolate the genetic material from that swab that contains the virus particles,

and the kit is specifically designed to detect the genetic signature of the virus. And so that then gets run through a PCR, which can be done in just a few hours. And if there are hits, then that then becomes a positive test. Okay, well, this patient has detected positive for this coronavirus strain. If it's negative, then it means that there was no coronavirus there in the first place. Okay, so it's the elements of the test that are limited, and that's what people can't find.

Absolutely. Interesting. And as far as, like, people's, you know, you're specializing in immune systems, for the average person, you know, how, just to give some people some calm, you know, because there's this thing where, you know, younger people are hearing, oh, well, you know, you probably won't get that sick or it won't be that serious. And it seems like some people are taking that as permission to just go about their lives, you know, and going out there and going to bars and restaurants. I mean, more and more our local government

is putting a pause on that. But, you know, why should those people still take it seriously? And how is this affecting our immune systems? And do we know anything about the long-term ramifications of the coronavirus? So, yeah, if you're otherwise healthy and you do become infected you're you're looking about two week total recovery perhaps one week of severe symptoms

okay um the the reason not to go out though and think oh it's okay i've had the cold or i've had the flu before i can do that i can make that is it it's not about these people it's about protecting those that aren't going to get through it you know this has a there is a death rate involved to this and it is those are susceptible to the virus such as those are otherwise a precondition to something like a respiratory disease or the elderly or another at-risk group it's about protecting those you know and it's to go out for anything other than necessary reasons puts them at risk so like going to bars or restaurants when you could stay at home and you know eat or you

know have a bottle of beer at home instead sure you know you you stop putting those people at risk then for for the sake of you, thinking it's all about me instead. What about people who are like still inviting their friends over for like a quarantine party? Yeah, the game nights. Yeah. I'm seeing that on the internet. How do you feel about that? Again, it's something that's not necessary to do.

Right. You know, this, again, to say that you can't do it i think induces more panic i think we rely on people being sensible here yeah it's you you host a game party and let's say there's eight or ten of you there and one of you has a coronavirus but you're asymptomatic you're not showing any symptoms you can still be infectious and so it's very likely that all eight of those people then become infected you know only then needs one of those people to be you know in the service industry or any other kind of industry perhaps they're a delivery driver and then yeah you know it spreads very quickly then so just not necessary yeah if it's not necessary

if anything can be done remotely then that's definitely the way to go yeah i mean it's one of those things too where you just um i'll admit when like a few weeks ago when this was uh starting to come out like most people it was like oh you know everyone's freaking out about this but like you know is it just a really bad flu? And, you know, I definitely kind of was thinking that and amongst with conversations with my friends. But you listen to some of the experts and you hear people talking and realize it's kind of an irresponsible point of view. And like, as you just said, Ben, like that's how things are getting spread by doing things we don't need to do. And, you know, I'm in this kind of small group class, there's only 10 of us. It's a bunch of people, you know, young, healthy people. And then we realized, well, you know what,

instead of getting together, there's plenty of technology out there like Zoom where we could do these get togethers on video Skypes and be just as productive. And zoom where we could do these get togethers on a video skypes and be just as productive and then even you could do game nights and things like that all the things you can do out there um facetiming your friends you know it's not quite the same but there's there's things we can do to still be connected with our friends and and still be creative with some of the fun things activities that we have, while not putting our friends and family members at risk. How long is the incubation period, do we know,

in terms of like if you were to get it, how long could you potentially be contagious without showing symptoms? That's a very good question. We don't know for sure. Our scientist's best estimate right now is somewhere between two and 14 days. That's so it's quite wide, quite wide. Yeah.

Fairly scary. And then think about, uh, if you were to become infected as a young person, even for two days, all the people you'd be interacting with touching, you know, uh,

when we're not thinking about this, uh, we put our hands on everything on railings coughing you know most time we should cover our mouths we don't all the time picking things off of the ground on our phones constantly you know that's one thing I thought of too I've been sanitizing my phone a lot just like I've dropped my phone on the ground pick it up I don't think too much of it in the past I set it down on a counter, you know, where people maybe have eaten before. I just never really thought about that. And in most cases, maybe you get away with that being a relatively

healthy person, but now you're just kind of being more mindful and thinking of those things that you can do to try to help yourself. But again, if you were to be infected, not thinking about that, right? I mean mean i'm assuming that that that's how this is being spread so fast yeah that's right so it's people not knowing that they're infected uh then going out and it's being spreading fast that's why like you say it's important to be mindful so you know covering your mouth when you cough try and use your elbow instead of your hands try not to touch your face don't you know keep this social distancing as best as possible and that stops the spread yeah you know from from what we know the spread is caused by basically droplets what are you what's that so like droplets in there when

you cough you you cough out droplets that contain the virus that might just washing your hands protect you um not necessarily but if you wash your hands and don going to protect you. Not necessarily. But if you wash your hands and don't touch your face, then you're less likely to contract the infection. Yeah, but like my mom will be like, yeah, I'm going to fly. We're going to wash our hands. We're going to be fine. But if it's spread through droplets in the air,

that's just because you're washing your hands doesn't mean you're going to be fine. Yeah, so right. I mean, like, that's fair to you're washing your hands doesn't mean you're going to be fine. Yeah. So, right. I mean, like, was that, that's fair to say. Absolutely right. You know, so it's. So to be like, so to your point, Rochelle, washing your hands, it's something we can do. It's something that is helpful.

If washing your hands and correct me if I'm wrong, Ben, like if say someone who has it sneezes, covers their mouth right and then they walk down a flight of stairs and put their hands on the rail 20 minutes later you walk down the same set of stairs with your hand on the rail they potentially could contract it at that point that's right yeah washing your hands maybe would help that but you know if you it's not going to prevent you from getting it if you're out there the only way to do that is really as you say to social distance and isolate yourself for a period of time that's right yeah and this the washing hands is just one of the many things that people are

supposed to be doing too i've heard uh that men with beards uh are at risk is that i mean what's how is that true is that accurate is that Is that something that people should – is it really – is it one of those kind of helpful things? Or am I being irresponsible by having facial hair? It's not something I'm heard of. If it is true, I'm glad I had a shave this morning. Okay. I mean, it makes sense, I guess, because these water droplets can sort of accumulate in the beard. And, you know, that leaves you more at risk to inhale.

Perhaps when you cough, the beard becomes a bit of an entrapping ground to catch these droplets, and then you only really need to get close to somebody to inhale these droplets and these viral particles. I feel like at that point you probably have it. Is my beard really making it worse? Yeah, perhaps at that point the individual would have it, yeah. But then again, it comes down to, okay, this is about protecting everybody else as well.

I mean, I can't tell everybody to go around and shave. That would be a little bit ridiculous. I know a lot of people put a lot of effort into their beards, so. I mean, it's not the end of the world I could shave, but I'm just trying to, like, find out what, what are some of the things

that we're hearing out there on the internet that we should really, what are the important things and what are the things that it's like, there's just so much information and so many people

with an opinion. Yeah. I'm just trying to kind of get to the root of it. Theragun! I got, I love my Theragun i know you do i just uh constantly have uh tension and it's so great to have my theragun just on the couch you know watch tv and it feels great yeah i mean how many times are you um sitting there and you got a kink in your neck or a tightness

in your calf or whatever, and you're always like sitting, and you're like, can you rub me? Can you, like, you go to massages. Yes, right here, right here. Right here. And the person kind of like, if they even say yes, half-ass it and do it for four seconds. Yeah. And now you can do it as long as you want.

It's so, it's actually, and it's very easy to use on yourself. It's crazy how they designed it so you can reach everywhere. It's really, it's very easy to do. yourself. It's crazy how they designed it so you can reach everywhere. It's very easy to do. Yeah. It seems easier than you think. And then, obviously, if you have someone, you can do it with each other. That's even easier. Feel better naturally.

Treat your pain and get back to your life. Try Theragun risk-free for 30 days or your money back by going to theragun.com. For a limited time, my listeners to this podcast get a free charging stand with their purchase, a $79 value. That's cool. That's theragun.com slash V-I-A-L-L, theragun.com slash V-I-A-L-L.

And then as far as like how it does affect everyone, like so you said it's more respiratory, like how is that different than, say, the flu? Maybe that's a good thing to talk about. People say, well, it's just like kind of a flu thing. So what are the reasons why this is more severe than the flu? Why is the death rate higher? And why should people not just say it's just like the flu why is the death rate higher uh and why uh should people not just say it's just like the flu

um well it's not so much necessarily the death rate is higher we don't specifically know if death rate would necessarily be higher or not yet gotcha what's different is this is new okay this is a completely new virus in many ways so what's that mean to us so this um if you remember the sars outbreak of sure a few years ago it's it's basically a derivative of that okay so it's very similar to to that virus but it's its own virus in its own right as well so because of that we don't have any vaccines we don't know what antivirals work we we don't know what treatments and we don't know necessarily what to expect so we're learning all this for the first time and you know while this um you know that this is it is got very similar to the flu um in that they're both respiratory viruses they you know

they're both in uh can induce fever fatigue uh cough things like that but the last thing we need is another flu you know because this is a completely different virus to the flu it's just you know attacking the same organ system really or infected by the same organ system so it's that we we don't know enough about this one yet and we don't have the treatments and we're learning all this for the first time gotcha and when you say we don't have the treatments, there's no known kind of, there's no known, what's the word I'm looking for? Vaccine. Vaccine.

Yeah. Is that, what does that mean? I mean, when you say, because like I have, you know, I'm not a doctor. You hear that there's no cures for viruses. There's cures for bacterias. How is a vaccine different than like say if I have like a strep throat and I take antibiotics mm-hmm like what does that mean so that makes sense yeah that makes sense so antibiotics don't work against

viruses seriously a vaccine essentially stops you not so much getting the virus if you remember how I took briefly i talked about the adaptive immune system how the the host or the body develops a defense against a specific pathogen what a vaccine does is it trains your body to react to a certain pathogen or a certain virus so that if you do contract that virus you have that very specific very fast very rapid immune response okay rather than having to wait for your body to develop that immune response on its own when you do get the virus so right now when we're getting when people who are contracting corona their body's kind of like what is this what's going on and they almost have to start from

scratch and and yeah interesting absolutely so the you know the body's reacting to this for the Like, what is this? What's going on? And they almost have to start from scratch. Yeah. Interesting. Absolutely. So, you know, the body's reacting to this for the first time. The body is developing an immune response to it. That adaptive immune response does take time, which is why specifically like colds and flu or, you know, these coronaviruses take a week, maybe two weeks to recover from. And so the vaccine stops you taking that two weeks recovery because it's already had that immune response sure and then i'm assuming that we'd

just be we were more were contagious for longer periods of time as well then absolutely related you know then that really impacts the spread impacts are spread within your own body yeah interesting uh and then why why are the corona in terms of it being more of a respiratory illness than say the flu or is that not accurate as well because i'm hearing a lot about people talking about respiratory as it relates to corona and that's a specific kind of um symptom symptom of it is that is it is that true as well or what is it about the corona that it's attacking people's respiratory systems um you know the same way that flu attacks the respiratory system as well it's just that these particles are in the water droplets they're airborne it gets into the

lungs the lungs are very you know susceptible to contracting these these infections infections what this coronavirus does is covered 19 much like it's almost SARS parent virus if you like it a it targets a specific protein that's expressed a lot in the lungs and so if that protein doesn't exist the virus can't get into the cells and so that protein doesn't really exist on skin on in your eyes or in your ears let's say but that protein does exist in your lungs and that's how the virus gets into the cells gotcha okay so what's the effect on the respiratory system so the what the virus does it it attaches to that protein it essentially infects that cell it uses that cell's own genetic machinery to replicate its own virus genetic

material the virus then generates more virus particles within that cell and then will literally just burst out the cell at some point oh wow so one virus can create multiple other viral particles and bursting out the cell those other viral particles then get into other cells and more and more and that's causing a lot of damage to your tissue permanent damage uh not permanent your cells will recover okay if you know if you're healthy enough for those cells to recover yeah i was hearing something about heart damage that was happening um that makes sense yes so the um the protein that it targets called uh angiotensin converting enzyme 2. Okay. We shorten that to ACE 2.

Okay. And that will make sense because as far as I'm aware, ACE is also expressed a lot on cardiac tissue. Oh, okay. If someone experiences some type of damage, does the heart recover as well? It can do, yeah. I think as soon as you get in those kind of symptoms that's when it's serious okay because so not not everyone would have that type of damage no no you would need the virus to

get um systemic into your i don't know into your bloodstream let's say or and and those are the people it's more common for at high risk patients like what stopping, what's stopping it from, you know, becoming systemic throughout your body and the average person versus someone who has a very serious case? Your immune system. Gotcha.

So your immune system will get to it and fight back before it has a chance to spread. That's right. Yeah. So people who are immunosuppressed, they don't, they aren't. Yeah,

they're not going to be able to fight the virus. And so that's why it's important for those to get the treatments that are available. Right, they are number one priority, yeah. And be, you know, protected from potentially even contracting the virus in the first place. Interesting. And so, and who are the people, I'm assuming most of the people who are listening who are high risk are aware of it. But just to lay it out there you know we have obviously elderly people people over 60 i've heard smokers are higher risk is that true yeah

people with diabetes heart conditions anything else people with transplants are on immunosuppressants so that their body doesn't reject absolutely yeah so anybody who's any kind of immunocompromised, you know, a major wannabe HIV patients would be susceptible. The elderly for sure. Anybody with any kind of respiratory illness or lung disease would be at risk. What about someone, I went to, I got a physical once, and they said, oh, you had, you know, you had walking pneumonia

and you didn't, you know, and I was like, oh, I didn't know. I was fine. They're like, yeah, that can happen. Are people who've ever had like pneumonia at higher risk now, if they're relatively healthy people, or is that only because if they were to have pneumonia? Cause I hear, I'm hearing pneumonia being brought up as it relates to Corona a lot, or that's when it takes a turn for the worse how how does that affect uh the disease so i mean pneumonia in simple terms basically means infection of the lungs okay so it's primarily bacterial pneumonia um but if you've had pneumonia before it doesn't necessarily mean you're susceptible it's something you should definitely consider um but you know if you've had pneumonia before, it doesn't necessarily mean you're susceptible. It's something you should definitely consider.

But, you know, if you had pneumonia, walking pneumonia, and you were the way recovered, it means you've got a very healthy immune system. You're able to respond to it just fine, you know, as a healthy patient should. I was, they were, yeah, they were just like, oh, I don't know. I had markers or something.

I don't know what it meant, but they said, it looks like you might've had this. I remember being like, oh, there might've been a time four or five months ago where I felt a little like not myself, but that was about it. But so that's always kind of weird to hear or scary to hear, but then I guess it's a good sign that your body fights it. But all the more reason why you, for the healthy people out there, is it safe to say that not everyone who gets corona would ever really feel that sick, where they could just feel a little off

but not feel that sick and then be contagious to many other people? Yeah, for sure. This definitely seems to be quite the spectrum in terms of infection. Some people might just be a mild tickle in their throat you know for example the man I even feel feverish or if they do this mouth feverish but they take acetaminophen regularly and that's you know counteracts the fever so they don't really tell they don't really

know and so yeah a lot of people will perhaps will feel asymptomatic or just mild symptoms think oh well this can't be corona because people are dying from it. So I don't have corona. But you might well have. Yeah. I read something that you should take Tylenol and not anything that's anti-inflammatory. Like ibuprofen? Yeah.

What is that? Yeah, it's an ongoing bait, basically. Oh, really? In the medical field and the scientific field. I'm on the on the side that yeah you shouldn't take it the anti-inflammatory what i mean i've what is the difference between tylenol and say advil or ibuprofen so anti-inflammatories um as you might expect suppress the what's called the inflammatory response and so and that's advil or ibuprofen yeah okay drugs such as that um so what would happen is

you know you you get an infection um what your body does is it it reacts to that infection these like the cells i study the innate immune cells they they they can detect that infection and they produce what's called inflammatory cytokines it's these cytokines that are actually responsible for inducing the fever for inducing redness by dilating blood vessels you know they're actually quite toxic as well in very high concentrations so the the idea of these anti-inflammatories is to stop that inflammatory response stop the fever yeah to stop the fee so you're almost stopping your body's ability to fight off the infection exactly so this you know we've evolved and developed this immune system in order to fight these infections if we start

suppressing that then we're perhaps more likely to allow the infection okay to take hold more and so taking away that body's response to produce these inflammatory cytokines can actually be quite detrimental so whilst it hurts yeah you get a fever and a headache and you know you you feel hot and swollen and you know and there is somewhat damage it's there for a reason because we're trying to fight a biological organism that's infected your body and that needs to be quite toxic in itself as well interesting yeah i mean it's always that weird i think when people get sick and they especially when they run a fever there's that fear of your body just being in pain

so it's good to know sometimes that maybe that's a good thing yeah that's at what point does it become concerning you know let's say all right fine i'm allowing my body to fight this is there a point where it's uh this is getting too serious i need to go to the hospital i need to go to the doctor's office um is it when the fever never breaks or like how long could you have a fever or what what temperature is it kind of relatively normal where it's still safe to stay at home drink fluids and things like that rather than to seek a healthcare professional um good question i would say generally speaking if after let's say seven days it hasn't got better or it has got worse, definitely seek medical help.

If at any point you're just generally concerned anyway, then for sure go seek medical help. You know, I don't want to be here and say, no, just stay home seven days, you'll be fine. And then, you know, people will take that as advice and, you know, only it will get worse. So for sure, if you feel like it's getting worse, particularly after about a week,

then, you know, definitely something's going bad. What about the idea of like, I want to figure out if I have it so I can let anyone know who I may have come in contact with that, you know, you've been exposed? Or is it, are we past that now where we're trying to find out where, where it's spreading? I think if you have a cause to find out, if you have it, like if you have genuine reason to think, OK, well, I need to find out because I, you know, I'm a nurse. I work in a hospital. So it's important to find out. Or I drive a school bus. Right. So, you know, there are certain people where it's important for them to find out.

But I think if you ultimately can do your job remotely working from home and you're otherwise concerned and, know, your, um, institute in which you work has allowed you to work from home, you know, go for it, do that and keep, keep that social distance, keep self-isolation. You don't need the test specifically in that case. So it's the test right now until they become more widely available until they become financially viable as well, needs to really be reserved for those who are otherwise in need of the test or would be perhaps, you know, putting other people at risk because of their job. I mean, that was kind of my thought, too, because it's like, all right, well, instead of panicking and telling everyone they they need to go test um you know i was for example i was in new york a couple weeks ago i got on a flight so like i'm trying to

do my part by just pretty much staying in wash my hands a ton not going out in groups in public and if i have to go out you know i minimize that because like if i were to have had it i guess it's just like well i wouldn't they just tell me to go home i mean i live by myself so i wouldn't necessarily be at risk of like say you know i don't have kids or a family to potentially be infecting them it's just like i would ultimately be doing the same thing so just if you can as you said ben just stay inside and if you do have it and you don't necessarily uh uh like aren't going to be infecting anyone else don't put other people at risk by going to a doctor's office people who might have um susceptible immune systems and things like that and then i guess that's the

thought of like tracking it down everyone should be doing this right now. So it's kind of like, right? What do you mean? Well, I mean, it's just like if you're, let's say you're feeling a little off, right? And you're like, your first thought is like, oh, I guess I need to, should I go get tested? Because I want to be able to tell, you know, I had a game night with my friends or something. I need to tell, everyone should just be staying home.

I know, but it's like, it could have been 10 days ago you know when none of the world was staying home at that point or maybe some people were but majority were not well i guess it's just like i think what ben's saying right i mean is that we have we should all just try to do as much as we can by minimizing human contact for at least a period of time for sure that's the best thing we can do is we're talking two weeks to a month maybe two months of doing this before we we're on the the back end of it and we're starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel but it really will require lots of people or the majority of people to do that and yeah so that was my next question so you we're looking at a one to two months of two months of really taking this seriously and and this kind of being the new

norm um just to to stop this from really affecting uh uh people on a global scale for sure uh what's i heard something you can get reinfected you know yeah i've heard that yeah is that true um yeah there's no reason why you can't um why is that uh perhaps you're you know after you got the infection the first time your your immune system didn't quite develop a an adaptive response strong enough to recognize that that second uh that second wave so um so yeah you know secondary infections can be you know quite common in these things but you know that's that's common in all of you know viral infections for sure there's no reason you won't just get it again

interesting there's no reason you don't your body can't build up no sure yeah you know there's sometimes you know some people just won't have that inherent capability of recognizing that particular virus and some won't produce a that secondary um sort of adaptive response yeah so that's good some important to know because if you were someone who has been tested and tested positive and you isolate yourself for a couple weeks you it doesn't mean you can then go outside and not be mindful and cautious and and not wash your hands i mean we should always be doing this but clearly we've been far more mindful yeah it's not as if well i had it like you know when people had the

chicken pox yeah like i had the chicken pox yeah i'm not afraid of different than that yeah well this is it i i actually had the chicken pox twice as a. So it's not impossible. It's not impossible. It's rare. It's rare. For that to occur, it's rare. Okay. But it's not impossible. And just because you've had it doesn't mean you won't necessarily have it again. You can get it again.

You just won't feel so bad the second time because your body's trained to detect and fight that infection this time. But what you are is still infectious during that time as well so you then become this carrier that can still spread it even though you're no longer you know gonna suffer from that that is so people who have gotten it or are potentially even more at risk of spreading it because they'll they'll truly yeah not think they have it may not feel any real symptoms and are out there touching and meeting people and out yeah out in restaurants it's interesting so i mean there's news about a vaccine do you what are your thoughts on that or what could we look for um i think the it's definitely exciting let's uh hope for the best

um you know research trials clinical trials whether for drugs vaccines honestly they very often fail more than they succeed so we can only hope for the best that this particular vaccine works but uh the company that's developing this vaccine as well as other companies all over the world are all trying to develop vaccines right now and so you know the more the better essentially because the more chance we have at success um i would say realistically speaking we're looking at sometime next year before we develop a vaccine yeah i mean that's what i mean the little bit i've heard that's what you hear experts saying so the stuff that rochelle has read, is that just like hope or is it possible?

Or like what's the difference between someone saying we might be, we're doing human trials and are around the corner versus someone like you and other experts saying this could be realistically a good year, year and a half away from having a reliable vaccine. I think it's definitely hope and it's possible it could work for sure. But on Flipcoin, it means that it might not work yeah so when you when people so when they say they're doing human trials that just means they have something that they think could work and they're going to try it out and see if it does but that that there's a good chance as you said that just means they're going to try it and only realize this didn't work all right now we'll build off of that and realize you know is that you know people say like oh well it failure i guess is a good thing because they know what won't work and now they can can focus on the things that do work but it's just one step in

terms of getting to the final so everything that goes before clinical trials has only ever happened in the lab okay um there may have been animal testing in that um i believe the you know i'm sure this corona vaccine was trying to skip as many steps as possible but uh ultimately it's just lab-based tests to see if this works and so you get to the point where it's time to try it in humans in patients and all you've got is this pre-clinical data it's laboratory data so it ultimately comes down to okay does it work in humans because that's where we need it to work um you know most drug trials most vaccine trials do fail because ultimately it doesn't work in humans so you know like you say we can only go and think okay we've tried all this in the lab it looks like it works

we think it will work we hope it works we can try only go and think, okay, we've tried all this in the lab. It looks like it works. We think it will work. We hope it works. We can try it in humans now because we've done our best to deem it safe as well. Sure. Which is what most of the testing actually goes into. And so you try it in humans. But if it ultimately doesn't work in the human, we have to think again. We have to, you know, in many cases even just start again.

So it's not building off. it's almost starting over uh sometimes so you know if the the thinking towards the the disease in question or this virus is that's okay this this particle or this this viral part we've isolated it is going to be the antigen we we're going to get the the patient's immune system to respond to if that doesn't work on that particular virus then or the the patient hasn't got the capability to respond to that particular particle then you're not going to develop that um immune response that the vaccine is supposed to do and therefore it's not going to work okay fascinating can you tell us like what the symptoms are like if people are worried that they have it

what are things they should be looking out for um sure so the three major symptoms are fever uh fatigue so feeling tired uh and cough uh particularly a dry cough so not like a spluttering cough like a dry chesty cough beyond that you're probably looking at like maybe muscle pain soreness aches things like that strangely sneezing and congestion on all that common but not unheard of so definitely keep an eye out for that common yeah it's not that common it could be a cold if you're having congestion. Yeah, if you're feeling like sneezing. I think congestion is definitely there in the corona,

but definitely that sort of sneezing or tickling in the nose that makes you sneeze. Not that. When you have a cold. That's not all that common. I think from last I looked, we're talking about 10%, 15% of cases don't really have sneezing. For all we know, that could be down to something 15% of cases don't really have sneezing. And for all we know, that could be down to something else there as well, but not necessarily the virus.

Well, it's interesting too, because people usually equate like congestion with like having the flu, but it seems like that's not always the case with the coronavirus. Yeah, that seems to be something different and unique to the coronavirus. It's not really causing that much sneezing in the coronavirus,

but it is there in some patients for sure could you have like muscle aches without the fever without the cough could you be you you could but again that'd be rare and uncommon i think um you know those three symptoms the fever the cough and the the fatigue are definitely what you want to look out for right now and just i guess before we we close what are some things people can do um you know you study the immune system to kind of um daily habits or the things they can do to improve their immune system there's only so much i think we you know you can't stop us you can't stop from getting the virus if you contract it but you know all the things that people drink a lot of fluids things things like that, or what are some other things that would be helpful for people to do just to make sure that their body is equipped to fight any infection that they get?

So firstly, I would say get your information from credible sources. Which are? which are um so from accredited medical websites um if you're looking particularly in information against corona i would recommend the cdc or who websites for sure um you know try not to get too caught up in media hype or people who sort of over inflate their um ideas on like boosting immunity in terms of boosting immunity my favorite is iron so iron iron so i take iron supplements in the morning okay um you know there's been several studies to show yeah me either yeah i'm popping vitamin c all the time is that uh vitamin c can help for sure you know again there have been studies show vitamin c really helps, uh,

particularly against viral immunity. So, you know, take vitamin C, eat oranges, lemons. Um, you know,

if, if you're not really keen on just taking, uh, necessarily pills, you know, these are also rich in, in a lot of foodstuffs, but.

Interesting. I guess I am a little frustrated. I'm thinking back. I'm like frustrated that we held the LA marathon. I'm frustrated that like held the la marathon i'm frustrated that like it took so long for like events to close and i know like the medical community has been preparing for something like this forever like bill gates made a huge speech about this i think it was two years ago ted talk yeah ted talk and like is this something you saw coming? And were you equally frustrated by people just going about life as usual for so long?

back on many aspects and think we either overreacted or we underreacted and we have what we have to really work out now what's better to do because we're not going to get it exactly right right is it better to overreact or better to underreact and so you you would think you know in terms of protecting those that are vulnerable it's probably better to overreact so you know closing events and um closing schools or restaurants and things like that so that we can stop the spread but you know if it came to the point where it wasn't all that bad of a thing well you know what's the damage there you know we're costing you know the the la marathon is a great way of charities raising money and so those charities no longer get those funds so

it's it's difficult to predict the future you know and we we have to at least recognize that whilst we're being frustrated that these things didn't close down so we you know we know it's bad now but we didn't know that two three weeks ago ago, you know? So it was, you know, most of the people were joking about it back then. Right. Yeah. I mean, three weeks ago, I read something that people were suggesting that the NCAA not allow fans going to the basketball games.

My first reaction was that's utterly nuts. That's, you know, what, what a total overreaction. Yeah. Clearly that's, I don't even know if they they're gonna even have the tournament let alone not have fans there but i think that's the thing it's just as a society who you know when we're not involved in the medical you know conversations you know and we see on the internet people overreacting about all sorts of different types i think it's human nature to have those types of reactions. And I think that's why we're just trying to, you know, have these conversations to make us more aware because it is that balancing act, as you said,

Ben, in terms of getting the information we need and trying not to overact where we don't have to. And we'll look back. And I think that's a really good point that you made that we'll in a month and a year, we'll look back and we won't know what we didn't take serious enough. And we won't know what was maybe a little overreaction until we can kind of look back and see. And then the next, you know, the next time something like this happens, be better prepared for it. Because I see that a lot too too like this isn't going to be the last you know we've had sars we've had the coronavirus we had uh what was that uh spanish flu spanish flu we've had uh what was the other one it was a bird flu swine flu swine flu this isn't going to be the last virus new virus that revealed itself that humanity has to deal with. No, for sure.

And like from the medical field sort of side that it's generally accepted. Now we're not going to stop the spread. Best we can do now is slow it down. The reason we want to slow it down is because if too many people get infected at the same time that require hospitalization, require medical treatment, the system is not able to cope. that require hospitalization, require medical treatment, the system is not able to cope. So if we can slow it down and spread that out a little more over a wider time period, then hospitals are able to cope,

medical systems are able to cope a little better. The antiviral treatments won't just automatically run out within the first two weeks, and then those that are sick then don't have antiviral treatments available because it was all used up so it's a matter of really really slowing that spread down now as best we can i mean that's it's just yeah it's crazy to think we're you're so it's almost like you people are going to get it like you said it's just not getting it all at once where people don't know what to do in our in our doctors and nurses and medical professionals can't deal with it that's it i think right now we're beyond

the point of of no return where we it's we can't stop the spread now um beyond doing something like you know implementing martial law where we you know the military takes to the streets and enforces everybody to stay inside for the next two months. It's not going to happen. So people need to go outside. People need to go get the groceries. People need to step outside. The spread will happen. So if we can slow that down best we can,

that gives us a better chance to cope with it. If we can protect those that are, you know, successful, that gives us a better chance to really, really reduce the, you know, the death rates in this virus.

Okay. I'm just frustrated because I'm having trouble convincing like my parents, like I heard that's kind of common. That age group for some reason doesn't want to take it seriously. Also, they don't think of themselves as old yet you know what i mean so they don't think that they're vulnerable yeah yeah and they don't want to change they don't want to believe the you know the media hype so i had a family friend um that we

got together this weekend and i was just like hey just you know like i feel fine but like i i was in new york a couple weeks ago like yeah and you know that was her reaction it was just like oh well you know when it's my time it's my time i'm like you're not you're not that old you are certainly old enough to take this seriously yeah like and it's uh it's a challenge it's the mindsets that we have this especially american society of like just toughen up, you know, be tough. Yeah. Somehow our toughness is going to have an impact in our body's ability to fight a disease. And that's not the case, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. I think ultimately what your parents have got right is not believing the media hype, I guess. You know, in my opinion believing the media hype i guess okay um you know in my opinion the the media um sells chaos and so it's in their best interest to to overhype things um a lot of the time so but you know scientists and doctors and researchers it it's not in their best interest because it overwhelms them so they're the people we need to be listening to in this situation and again you know it's that there is this sort of stiff upper lip idea that um oh i'll be fine i'm not that old again it's not about you you know it's about those that are at

risk those that you know we can't just lock them away for two months either and so it's it's really about protecting those that that can't fight this virus you know whether they're elderly or otherwise and so so yeah it's not about uh creating fear um it's about us just being socially responsible and being smart and doing what we can yeah this is your american duty um yeah because i totally agree Like fear does sell. And sometimes fear can be very motivating. And it's weird because like sometimes, you know, over the weekend, it was St. Patrick's Day weekend. And like cities like Chicago, I mean, a lot of cities, it was just like no one was getting the point. You know, there's a lot of young people out there saying a lot of ignorant things and going out.

And it's kind of like, at what point do you have to scare them enough to go home? Not scare, you know, it's like, it's not the end of the world, right? Is it safe to say this isn't the end of the world? No, it's not the end of the world. Yeah. It's not the end of the world. But yeah, we don't want to mess up our economy as much as we don't have to. And this is going to affect our economy certainly but what we what we don't want to do is destroy our health care system we don't want to have people who are at risk um be casualties of this flu and those are the things that we can do um and it's not it's not you know two ends of the spectrum it's not end of the world or i'm fine it's yeah you know it's somewhere in between that's right and it's the i guess yeah just don't let's not collapse the health care system let's

because then we probably will get close to the end of the world if that goes under you know so there you go so let's um but no it you know so it's not the end of the world. You know, it's sad that this is causing deaths and, you know, this is something new and this is yet another reason for the people are dying. And, you know, another reason for people like me to to try and find treatments for these kind of things. You're very important. But, yeah, we it's a matter of just protecting the things that we can protect now like the patients and the health care system because we really don't need that to go under when you know situations like this happen and then once we're at the other end of it let's learn from this let's see okay what did we do wrong so that we can make that better for next time and

you know i i don't know if it's a matter of scaring the younger people or if it's just getting them to realize that it's not all about them. It's about others at this point on people starting to. And that's why I wanted to have you on Ben, just because we do have a lot of young listeners. Most of our audience is the people who are the ones that aren't at risk, the healthy people. But I think it's good for us to understand

what this is, what it's not, what not to be afraid of, but at the same time to do our part to, to protect, um, our neighbors, our family members, our friends, um, people we don't know. Um, all the people we interact with that we don't even think about on a daily basis. Um, don't even think about on a daily basis um you know we um interact with so many people uh that we don't even talk to or communicate with like you said like you could literally touching a a hand railing down a set of stairs and yeah 50 people after you do that same thing so um just kind of protecting our our neighbors i guess it's a wonder if there's these people getting mixed signals and that you know the very people who are you know shutting down schools restaurants canceling events um putting restrictions on many things are then telling these people

don't overreact don't panic you know this is nothing to worry about and then we'll so well why shouldn't we overreact and panic? You're closing everything. Right. That's scary. Yeah. You look at it that way and you start to understand. And then, you know, and the thing that we have to wonder, okay,

why are we having to do that? It's because people are underreacting. Okay. And, you know, they're still going out to these events. Right. And so, okay, well, if you're choosing to go out to these bars and restaurants, then we're going to have to close them. And so they get closed. And, again, it comes down to that thing, you know, are we overreacting or are we overreacting?

We're never going to get this right. Yeah. And we'll be right. But, you know, we really are relying now on people just to be socially responsible. Yes. As best as they can. Yeah. Okay.

Well, Ben, I really appreciate you taking the time we're gonna let you go so you can continue to uh fight the good fight and uh keep uh finding solutions to these problems but i really appreciate you taking the time and hopefully people listening thought this found this informative uh be safe um you know, protect your neighbors. Any final thoughts, Ben? Yeah, just to echo that, be safe. Think about others as well as yourself, as well as your family. You know, there's people out there that are at risk and, you know,

all these measures are there to protect them, not necessarily just you. Yeah, it's not about you. All right. Well, thanks again for listening listening we will be back next Monday with another Ask Nick we'll keep trying to do these while

being smart and then we'll finally have Penn Jillette next week again a great interview with Penn very interesting I'm sorry a

great interview with Penn Penn it was a great interview with Penn very interesting guy It was a great interview with Penn, very interesting guy. I hope you really enjoy it, but we wanted to make sure we get Ben in here. It seemed to be pertinent and relevant to the times that we are in. So as always, be safe, stay inside, wash your hands, and we will see you on Monday.