The Viall Files - E1098 - The Bachelorette is Cancelled, Taylor Frankie Paul, and Age of Attraction's Leah and Vanessa

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  Everyone's heard the news: ABC has decided to pull this season of The Bachelorette. There's a lot of noise out there, so we're bringing in the experts. Emily D. Baker and Variety's Emily Longeretta join us to break it all down. What's actually happening, who the key players are, and what this means for the future of the franchise. We're also joined by Vanessa and Leah from Age of Attraction. Are Vanessa and Logan still together? Is the Bachelor franchise really done for good? We're getting into all of it on today's episode. "You couldn't get on The Bachelor if you had an unpaid parking ticket, back in the day."  The Viall Files is going LIVE with the new cast of Temptation Island on May 4th! Tickets are on sale NOW! For more information, please visit netflixisajokefest.com.  Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff now!  Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774298881  Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NWA8LBk15l2u5tNQqDcOO?si=3b868996930347e8  Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod Listen To Disrespectfully with Katie Maloney and Dayna Kathan now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Chewy - Chewy has everything you need to keep your pet happy and healthy. And right now you can save $20 on your first order and get free shipping by going to https://chewpanions.chewy.com/viallfiles  Gainbridge - Gainbridge—let your money work for you.  Ollie - Get ready for both you and your pup to be obsessed. Head to https://Ollie.com/VIALL , tell them all about your dog, and use code VIALL to get 60% off your Welcome Kit when you subscribe today! Ollie. Feed the Obsession. Upside - Upside has given back $1 Billion dollars to its users. To find out how much you could earn, Download the FREE Upside App and use promo code VIALL to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas. Kindred Bravely - Right now, Kindred Bravely is offering our listeners 20% off your first order when you go to https://KindredBravely.com/VIALL  Ladder App - Remove the guesswork with Ladder, and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout - no thinking, everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to https://ladder.fit/VIALL and take a quick quiz to find your perfect Ladder plan. Use our link and get a free 7-day trial with NO credit card, and $10 off your first month if you join. Clearstem Skin - Discover the CLEARSTEM difference — Because CLEAR SKIN CHANGES EVERYTHING. Go to https://clearstem.com/viall and use code VIALL at checkout for 15% off your first order.  Better Help - When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at https://betterhelp.com/viall  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 00:53 - The Bachelorette Cancellation 1:31:46 - Leah and Vanessa Talk AOA Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @theemilydbaker @emilylongeretta @vidabeautybabe @flyleahnicole @susiecevans @the_mare_bare @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein

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In addition, we got some amazing content like our deep dives where we dive deep onto your favorite reality TV shows and topics. Obviously, we'll be diving deep into all things. Bachelorette cancellation, age of attraction, all your favorite Bravo shows, as well as your pop extra, where we dive into your favorite pop culture topics, and maybe get into Chapel Rhone. What's going on? Chapel Rhone Club Salomon. What's going on with Chapel? I don't know.

Lots to dive into. And we have our update specials where you get your updates on your favorite Ask Nick calls, all available and more. So just go to VialFiles.com to sign up. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Vial Files Reality Recap Edition. your host, Nick, joined by my wonderful wife and the household is with us. It's also Mary's birthday.

It's her 25th birthday. She's very sad about it. The 25th is a tough one. You know, honestly, I feel pretty good about it. I feel, I feel, I feel, I feel maybe like, dare I say a little bit of an adult. I don't know. All right. Congrats.

We're cooking. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're just going to dive right into it. Hard to say we have a great episode, but I'm really great for. for the people we have present here because we are obviously going to talk about the cancellation of the Batcharet, the entire Taylor-Frank-Prankey Paul incident. There's obviously a lot of nuance. And now that the dust has somewhat settled, I think this is a story that is truly just beginning

and there's going to be more and more information coming out. But now that we know that the show is canceled, there was no premiere less over the weekend. Now we're getting into a lot of people having a lot of questions about how did this happen in the first place? Who are the key players? how did we get to this point? That is obviously very sad. It's very dark. And I'm very grateful to have both Emily D. Baker, former deputy district attorney for L.A. County. In L.A. County. In L.A. County. Former deputy in L.A. County. Four makes me sound elected. I never wanted to be a boss of anything. But she is someone we often bring on to help us tackle legal questions of which this, obviously, this story and the situation has a lot of. We also have Emily Langeretta joining us from

variety, who is a very seasoned entertainment journalist who we've had on before, who has covered the Bachelor franchise for how many years now? How many years? I mean, over a decade for sure. So very grateful to have both these women here. We also have Susie Evans of Batchar Nation as part of the household. And so our goal here today is to tackle a lot of these questions and have a nuanced conversation about how this all happened.

Where do we go from here? What is the fallout? and really try to answer a lot of the questions and add context to a lot of conversations we're seeing going out there. But I think this is a group that brings a lot of experience and expertise in terms of how this all happened and what's going on that we will all dive into. So just grateful to have you with us and really glad we're going to be able to have this conversation together. I want to start by just saying, I hope that it's the obvious that this is a terrible situation. for everyone involved. And I know, you know, for all of us who have covered reality TV, there's been

dark moments in reality TV with shows before. You know, there's been scary situations for people. This is a whole different animal. Lives are being ruined right now. Families are being torn apart. You know, careers are being ended. We don't even know how this is falling out. This is industry changing. This will have ripple effects for years to come. Wellness calls are being made right now. So I understand right now people are very interested and fancied by the story. But like, you know, everyone jumping to the internet, you know, when, you know, I guess all I'm saying is before you have your next hot take where you want to jump on your phone and knowing that it's going to go viral and people are going to engage with it, just, just remember that like right now, there are people's lives being ruined. And it's a very scary situation for everyone involved. Children are involved.

Children are involved. Again, families are being torn apart. And regardless of how you want to point fingers, there's a lot of victims in this story. I think the best place to start is this video. Last week, a video of this in 2023 situation came out that I think for everyone I think to say it was horrified by it. It is a very disturbing video. As someone who was previously in a three-year-long abusive relationship and who is now

a mother, I could barely even get through that video. It was so hard to watch. very triggering. I feel like I had like a rush of PTSD. It was, it was just very disturbing and incredibly hard to watch. I just have to say that. I have to get that off my chest. Yeah. And I think it's just, again, it's incredibly dark. And the biggest question I hear see right now on the internet is how did Taylor Frankie Paul ever get casted as the Bachelorette? The big question is, how did the secret lives of Mormon lives ever get greenlit? Because again, this video is as horrifying as it is happened in 2023. And what people, I don't think, realize is that

they were in the middle of filming the pilot for secret lives of Mormon wives when this incident happened. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I think what's so interesting is I rewatched the pilot last night because I thought the same thing. I thought, you know, we've seen, we saw a little bit of this. We saw a portion of this because the body cam footage of her arrest was in the pilot. And it was really intense and she was very, I mean, and she's talked about it. She's under the influence and she was like completely distraught and we don't know what led up to that. There were reports that he locked her in a garage, whatever it was that led up to what we now have seen three years later. But then the show had to pause for 11 months. So over those 11 months, when she came back,

she was pregnant with, with ever. And, but during those months that they paused, they, there was a police report. There was all of this stuff. All these details were on paper. While, while the video wasn't out there from what we know, right? It wasn't sealed because there was a minor involved. So, but there was all of the paperwork and the report. So the producers saw that when they continued. And that's kind of my question. I'm curious from you, Emily, you know,

you probably have more insight than I even do. I think as fans of these shows, I think there's just a level of trust we put into the people greenlining these shows that they are doing their due diligence. And the fact that this incident happened while they were filming the pilot, to me says all the key players in the main decision makers, it wasn't like they found out an incident happened in the past that they should look into. It was happening in real time,

which means they had access to Taylor. They had access to Dakota. They must have been hearing rumors about what actually went down. And like, then it begs the question of who asked what and what due diligence, if any, did they go in and do? And it's my understanding that, like, to get this, to get cameras picked back up, there has to be some kind of clearance from legal.

Absolutely. Yeah. And what did that look like? Emily, Baker, I'd love your perspective, but, you know, it sounds like, again, you know, two Emily's problems. But again, like you mentioned Emily Langeretta. Variety. Variety, that there was a child involved, so it looks like these court cases were sealed. But we're now hearing rumors that Taylor's first husband had been trying to allegedly track down this video and get access to it because apparently he had heard about the seriousness of this situation and was unable apparently to get that. With his daughter in. With his daughter involved. It was his daughter who was in this situation. So that suggests that people knew something, right? We know that there's one person we know for sure knew this video existed and that was Dakota. He filmed it. He filmed

He owns the IP. So I am curious, Emily, can you just kind of walk us through just so people understand? Because right now, one of the main questions is, is how did TMZ get this video? Did they buy it from someone? A lot of people are speculating, oh, no, they didn't have to get it from Dakota. They could have got it from the court case. Can you give us your insight from a legal perspective of what are the most likely scenarios of how this video three days before the launch of the Bachelorette?

And I think that's something that people need to acknowledge is the timing of this all. How did this potentially happen? There's a lot of background there in the court docket because the entire court docket in the criminal underlying case that Taylor Frankie Paul is still on probation for for her plea and abeyance, which means she pled guilty to a felony to have other charges dismissed. They hold the charge so it's not on her record yet until she successfully completed. It's probation. It's like a diversion program. But that's not done until August of 2026. But when this was all filed back in February 2023, the information was not sealed. So the description and the information includes that the officer watched the video and describes what was seen in the video. So from the earliest stages of this case, in the public court records, it says the video exists in that

filing information. So I can't imagine that anyone grabbing the court records didn't know a video existed because it's detailed there. It's detailed in the probable cause affidavit. It's detailed in the police reports. And Dakota was filming. I can't imagine production wouldn't have said, can you show us what this is. Now, for it to become public is a whole second matter, because the court does not have that video. There was never a hearing or a time when that would have been checked into evidence and given to the court.

The court does not have it. The court would not have had it. There was no preliminary hearing or other evidentiary-based hearing because she took that plea. That leaves Dakota, the DA's office, and the police. The police can't release a video with a minor of a DV incident

under a Public Records Request Act and in Utah, they're called Grandma. requests, but the police can't release that because there's a minor and because it's a DV incident. And if they had, Taylor could have gotten it taken down and probably should sue the police department for improperly releasing it with her child. Or her ex could sue the police department because that is also his child and get it taken down. That leaves the DA's office, who doesn't respond to public records request. They send it back to the police department, which leaves the person who filmed the video.

Also, it's notable to me that TMZ watermarked it. We learned a ton about this in depth he heard more than I had ever known because an employee from TMZ testified about how TMZ does this. They have to have copyright clearance. They don't need copyright clearance on the body cam, which is why the body cams not watermarked, but they watermarked it asserting ownership over it, which means the rights holder had to either relinquish or sell copyright to it, and that's the person that took the video. I can't see other possibilities of how TMZ got that video and got copyrights in it.

Jesus. So just I think you're already very clear, but just to summarize, the IP owner of this video is Dakota. And the only way TMZ can watermark this video is if he gives TMZ permission to do so. Yes, I can't see any other possibility, especially because in the surrounding action, we have not seen anyone going after the police department. We have not seen anyone talking about the police department releasing this improperly. It could not come from court. TMZ very carefully sidestepped that this was evidence in court. It was as it was described, but it was never admitted evidence that has a docket number in court. So they very carefully parsed where it came from. Also,

the same day that TMZ had access to the video, they had actually. access to the sealed records in the protective order case that Dakota filed. So the only way they're getting those sealed docket items is to have them either from the attorneys or from the party, and Dakota was the one filing those. So they have records that are sealed in the protective order case, and they have a video that was not in the possession of anyone but the police in Dakota. and even if Dakota gave it to a friend, they would still have to clear copyright on it. So that was my question.

That was my question because some people have been saying, like, could Dakota have sent it to someone and then they sent it in? But even if someone else sent it in, they would have had to have clearance from Dakota. Yeah, and even if he's sent it to someone, what are his intentions of why he's sending it to whoever he's sending it to? And I think you, you know, I think the big question overall covering the story is who in Taylor-Frank-E Paul's immediate circle,

her friends, family, the people she was working with on a daily basis, who knew what win? And I think those are a lot of questions that are going to be start being raised more and more. Back to you, Emily Longeretta. I'm curious, again, you've talked to a lot of executives and I'm shocked as someone who knows how these shows are made and the length is to which I talked to a lot of former bachelor producers over the weekend. And we'll get into what didn't, didn't happen once Taylor was named the Bachelorette. But I was reminded multiple times from a lot of different producers that you couldn't get on the Bachelor franchise if you had an unpaid parking ticket back in the day. And this is not because of the Bachelor franchise as some sort of elitist group of people. They did this to protect cast. Absolutely.

When they were doing background checks and they would ask you questions like, does anyone, have any compromising videos, nudes, or things like that that might exist. They weren't asking you for content to try to set you up in a scene that they were going to film. They wanted to know because the people back in the day who made these shows understood the type of scrutiny and attention all of its cast was about to receive. They knew like the intensity of this fan base and how they would look into our past and just find anything they could to make content. And so the reason they were so careful

about who they would cast is to protect its cast. Like there is, you know, for all the conversations that go out there about the relationship between producer and cast and the evil producers, I mean, again, like, there is a huge, you know, I've been around enough for reality TV to know that there is a huge spectrum

of how reality TV is made, the standards that they have, in terms of individual producers, there's a spectrum of each producers kind of bandwidth for like what they're willing to do for the sake of great TV. And for the most part, again, they're not as evil as their reputation is.

And they also, they are trying to find that balance to put into context how serious this situation is. If you remember, if you followed a Batchar Nation, you remember not too long ago, Ari. Right? That was a very dark situation where here is a man who, at the last minute AFR, changed his mind. All he did was realize after nine weeks,

he might have liked his runner up more and agreed to film breaking up with Becca to set up Becca as the Bachelorette. And even though he did the franchise of favor, they screwed him, right? They made him look terrible. And he, for a few days, it got really dark. He was the most hated man in America.

And I remember talking to a producer at the time and kind of just being like, yo, like this is a lot. And their response was, he's going to be just fine. And the truth is, you can debate the merits of that, but the truth is Ari is living his best life today. He's been on traders. He's done a bunch of TV. The reality is, is the thing he was getting heat for was in reality nothing. People are allowed to change their mind. But in the TV bachelor world, they made it into something huge. This is a situation where something illegal is happening. Some very dark and scary things are happening. We're talking about someone who clearly is struggling with their mental health.

When we had the opportunity of having Taylor on the show, and she talked about this situation, and if you go back and you watch that interview, it's not like she told a different story. Right. She told essentially... She's been very honest about what happened. And she was on our couch. You know, you felt her pain in the room. You felt her sadness and her regret.

And that is in no way... It's a disgusting video. It's a horrifying video. This is a very serious thing. This is not some reality TV drama that we've all can have fun with because, like, it's gotten a little heavy. But the end of the day, all the people involved are going to be just fine and living their best lives. Again, lives are being ruined right now. Emily Lungerreira, do you have any, like, insight into like why secret lives was greenlit and why they chose to make the main storyline, this very arrest, this domestic situation where children were involved?

Why were they so willing to lead with that? And Center, Secret Lives and Mormon Lives essentially started as a story about forgiveness. Should this person be allowed a second chance? And as humans and we watch reality TV, we want to believe that second chances are a real thing. We want to believe that we can make mistakes. Obviously not something as horrific as this, but that's the premise. And then season one kind of opens up like Taylor, Frankie Paul, talking to the other women, and talking about her regret and her mistake.

And then we all, as fans, kind of accepted that and then focused on all of Taylor's good qualities. And we all became fans of her. 100%. I think it's exactly what you were just saying. It started as, you know, she became, she was so TikTok famous and she had this swinging scandal that they were like, this makes it great for great TV.

Let's have her talk about this. And that's the difference between talking a scandal that can make a great TV show and a scandal that's breaking family. part. Granted, that also caused a divorce. So I'm not saying that didn't do that, but it is very different when there's children involved. So I think that they saw this as a, this is going to be great TV. And then once that happened in the first episode, they obviously did take a pause for 11 months before they even picked up filming again. But they realized their priority at that time

was ratings and was they saw success in numbers. And ultimately, as you know from any producer, well, their main job is to get people to watch TV. So it's walking that line of what is it's appropriate to use as a storyline and as a twist and as the most dramatic season ever and what's ruining lives and we can't get this a platform. I'm curious, Emily Baker, I imagine in your experience as a lawyer, you've covered cases where video evidence wasn't available and you got testimony, and you had people's stories kind of like from as fans

how we all received this information about the original domestic dispute. I'm just curious from your perspective, Emily. I imagine you know what it's like when video doesn't exist and then it does and even though you can hear the same story how seeing that context and the energy in this video

and the darkness can completely change people's perspective on what we're hearing or seeing. I think there's two sides to that because the district attorneys who would have read this case, who have done plenty of cases before, would understand what that means in writing. I think that the general public shouldn't be exposed to that as much as attorneys working in the criminal system are.

And so it is a very different and much more visceral reaction to seeing it on video. But it's also why when you look at high-profile trials, if there are videos, if there are audio, if there are recorded phone calls, they try to play that for the jury to bring them into exactly what's happening. There's a reason they say a picture is worth a thousand words,

a video even more so, because it is much more visceral. Words on a page do not convey to everyone the same thing that a video is going to. And this video is incredibly visceral for people and triggering and difficult to watch. And the fact that it was in existence for three years and just became part of the public discussion around this case,

because there are now, it seems, incidents being investigated. The timing to me raises a lot of eyebrows and how close it was raises eyebrows. But I also have a lot of eyebrows for ABC because I can't imagine, and please, I have way less experience in reality TV than I do in criminal law. But wouldn't production, if they're filming with Dakota, have asked to say, see this video because they knew it existed in all the documents. So wouldn't they have all known what was out there, even though the public hadn't seen it? I think that's what we're all shocked by. Again, like, in my experience, I'm just shocked that this didn't happen. Again, I have too many

experiences and have heard too many stories of far less serious situations happening where people, chances were taken away from them. I mean, we all remember, you remember Peter Krause? Of course. Right. If you don't remember, he was about to be named the Bachelor. GMA made an announcement. Tomorrow, we're announcing our next Bachelor. It was set up. They promoted it. And then all of a sudden, they were like, we're no longer naming our next bachelor. And I don't know what happened, but my understanding calls were made, information was discovered, and at the 11th hour before they are going to announce it, they didn't. Now, again, I don't know why. I know of another situation that not too long,

long ago, someone was going to be named the next lead. And there were rumors started circulating about some stuff in this person's past. And I actually got a call. Have you heard anything about this situation? I said, I don't, but I know someone who knows someone who I think might be involved. And I connected the dots. A phone call was made, and that person was never made the lead. And again, it was like they double-click on their due diligence to just, just to me. make sure before we move forward and make this person the lead of our show and all these people who have that again like there's hundreds of people whose jobs are on the line you know it's it's it's it's an entire franchise hundreds of people are involved whose lives will forever be different and and

there's such a responsibility that goes into making these shows and on the ripple effects of who it affects which is to why they in historically do this due diligence and the fact that like they just didn't. Or they didn't. They just ignored it. Yeah. The question is like on that. Did they know the video existed? Did they see video and ignore it? Did they just not want to know about the video? They would have known it was it existed because even the women of Mormon wives I believe had said

in I think NBC News put out on a report last week that was they did a call with right before the premiere of Bachelorette was set. Some of the some of the cast spoke to ABC execs and they raised concerns with the new case that is happening right now with Taylor and Dakota. I believe they said we've seen things on video, whether that's that video, whether it's a different video, whatever it is. But a source had told me last week that they were unaware of video existed and that they had never seen anything until the TMC story came up. So whether or not, but it doesn't seem they were unaware.

It just more seems that they hadn't seen it. And then like again, back to we know Dakota knew the video existed. And this is, he's also someone who was a star of the show who chose to keep quiet. You know, like, why wasn't this video? We've heard reports that, you know, even Dakota tried to warn people. Okay. If that's true, did he show this video? Did he not show this video?

Why did he hang onto this video until this very time? And then it brings up a lot of other questions. Can I push back on that just a little bit? Because law enforcement did have the video. Dakota gave it to law enforcement. The prosecutors had it. It's in court records. So I don't know if he was just sitting on it in that way

because the court process was going on. But the question I had about that, because they had the video, that was all in public record that ABC and Hulu would have had from the time that got filed in February 2023. But they didn't do a protective border when she was taking the plea in abeyance, which is normally done,

it seems to me so they could continue to film together. Well, I guess what's that mean they didn't do a protective order? When there's a domestic violence plea and abeyance like that, there would be a stayaway order between the two parties and a pretty thorough protective order that would cover the time of the probation

to keep the parties apart or to have limited contact to exchange children. There's a pretty structured protective order that would generally be in place if someone's on that kind of probation because the sad reality is that if there has been an incident that came to the court's attention, there's a ton of concern that there will be further incidents and they want to try to mitigate that with a protective order. In this case, there was no protective order done at that time. I wonder if that was to accommodate for future filming.

And if that's the case, I can't imagine that lawyers would not have been very involved in those conversations about how these two can navigate continuing to film together because her plea and abeyance says she can't be around places where alcohol is being served or consumed. She can't be around any drug use. There's a lot of rules there that she would have to navigate while being on camera. And he's the one that would have been able to opt out of a protective order talking to the court as the victim in that case. So my pushback is on people did have.

that video and they were working it out through the courts, but also it seems that there were some accommodations made for production. And then where is production in that conversation with what's going on in court? And are you two even going to be able to be within 100 yards of each other? I mean, that's really important context. It makes it even more crazy. I think I was just more speaking to your acknowledgement that he owned the video and this video got released when it got released. And regardless of what happened back in 2023, he made a decision recently and why he made this decision now versus at any other point. And again, you can condemn this video for what it is and find it as disturbing as everyone. And you can be horrified by it and you can ask the right

question, which is how did secret lives of Mormon wives ever get greenlit? I think it's still okay to ask the question, given what we saw in this video, and given what some people knew, how was she ever put in these situations going forward? They're basically documenting someone who clearly has some problems and needs some help and needs to be cared for was not only, like, that clearly didn't happen, but was put in these situations and made a TV show,

to activate her, to activate her, sent her around this very toxic and problematic relationship. And I don't, I mean, we're going to get into, like, what we saw in season four because to me that is one of, like, we haven't been really even talking about season four of Secret Lives because it's honestly been incredibly hard to watch because what I know about how they set up their lead and versus what I saw on season four. If this situation doesn't happen, if this, if this video isn't released and they moved forward with the airing of Bachelorette, they set her up to fail. It was all, it was always going to end with Taylor Frankie Paul hung out to dry. because of how they introduced, like the baseline of being the lead of The Bachelor is you have to be ready, bare minimum. They were so cautious back in the day that like it was never ideal to name the runner up the lead. And sometimes they did it under like certain circumstances, but it was never ideal because, again, the optics of the lead not presenting as ready to find love.

They couldn't go into after the final rows and have kind of their lead still be heartbroken over not ending up with the lead. and then present, they wouldn't present as available for love. And then you compare that to how the lead in for Talia Frankie Paul was season 10, where she's literally locking herself in the room and saying, I'm sick, I am not well, hooking up with her ex the night before. Like, again, you know, when they would announce the lead, they would tell you to basically go hide. They would say, be careful who you're seen around,

who you're taking pictures with. This was about, like, they were trying to protect their lead. They were trying to set them up for them. for success. And when you compare that, how that's always been to like what they did with Taylor, it seems incredibly reckless and negligent. You have to be emotionally ready to take on one of the most physical and emotional and mentally exhausting periods of your life. You also have to like be ready and wanting to find love. What we saw in season four was the exact opposite. I think she said at one point, I'm not ready, but I want to be. I'm pretty sure those were words she uttered.

Her lead-in, the episode 10 of season four, is Taylor Frankie Paul locking herself in a room saying, I don't want to go. One of her co-stars saying, you're not well, Taylor, you know? Like when one of your friends has to break into your house. Break in. And that's not like,

it's honestly, when it comes to these shows, again, it's a spectrum of like reality TV. What is real? What is a scene? Taylor, that didn't seem like a,

well, you know, it's a scene, but that didn't seem like they were like, all right, Taylor, we're going to come into your house. And no, it's when Jesse said, when she said who's here and Jesse said mom talk, it was like it's the girls with, like we have cameras. Like it's mom talk.

It's not Jesse, Macy, Layla and Michaela. It's not your friends here. It's your co-workers here asking if you can go and do your job. Which is like, yeah, it was. I also want to touch on something you said the video, the timing of the video release. I was over the weekend, obviously like many, my whole entire feed was like old past videos coming up. and Macy's interview from when she came here to talk to you guys about everything when she was talking about Dakota. We actually have that clip.

I'm setting it up for you guys. If we can go ahead and play that clip. Yes, we can. I'm going to bring it up right now. To set up this video, going into season two, we had many of the women on. And we had, you know, I think Macy and Lela. We were doing them in groups. We were doing in groups.

And Taylor were supposed to be a part of this group. And in the morning of, we heard that Taylor was unavailable because something happened the night. before. And so that was part of this conversation that we had with Macy. He sabotages things. Like, why do you think Taylor didn't show up today? Of course. It's always him behind the scenes, sabotaging things. So I should blame Dakota. A thousand percent. It's like anytime Taylor has a big event coming up last year for press. New York Press. New York Press. The press in L.A. She almost didn't show up because he purposely gets in fights with her. Sabotage is things. She's crying. She doesn't want to go do press. He sabotages all the exciting things. Like,

You know what I mean? Like if your wife had a great opportunity coming up, you wouldn't be like, let me start a fight right before she leaves, right? Like even if you were mad at her or something was going on, he'd probably be like, we'll say it for later. I want them to succeed. I want them to be their best. He doesn't. And I think it's almost like a like a competition almost. Like I think he's so insecure that he has to bring her down to his level, to be honest. And it's hard because this is exactly how I feel. So I'm just saying it. But then we do have to sometimes film in group settings. And he's a very nice, likable guy. And I genuinely get along with him. So it's almost to me sometimes because I'm like, oh, like, why are you the way you are behind closed doors? Like, I wish you were like this person to the front, like, all the time. Do you feel like he, like, performs for the cameras? Oh, 100%. Yeah. I always say that he's a wolf and sheep's clothing. And I stand by that.

100%. I remember talking to Macy at a different time and she had a lot of strong words against Dakota. And it wasn't like, oh, I just don't mess with him. She compared him to her an ex that I guess was very problematic for her. and described it as like a dark person. And so you watch this clip back, and it just raises even more questions about, again, like how bad was this?

And again, now that we have this video from 2023 that none of us realized how serious this was, how were these people put in these situations to film these scenes, season four, for example, that I just, I still cannot wrap my brain around and any former bachelor producer I've talked to is just horrified by what they watch in season four.

And another thing I don't think people realize because there's some key players that people are not connecting the dots. You have Warner Brothers who produces The Bachelor. So they have a whole team of producers. That's their entity. You have the production company that makes secret lives.

Those are two completely different companies, completely different motivations, completely different interests. They're not aligned. ABC, Disney is the distributor of The Bachelor. Disney is also the distributor of Secret Lives. They connect the dots. But those two production companies have completely different vested interests.

And so there is so much care. Back in the day, another thing people aren't talking about that I think from terms of how did this happen is this from an industry standpoint. We heard a couple not to, like the Bachelor was on pause, right? So this is almost like a perfect storm of, again, how this happens. On one end, you have Secret Lives, this hit show, one of the biggest shows on reality TV, Emmy award winning show. The Bachelor franchise is on pause, but it's a legacy show, one of the most successful

reality TV shows of all time, but kind of going into the opposite direction. They also were never nominated for an Emmy, which is a sense. subject for all those people involved. And so you almost had secret lives, everything they did work, everything they were doing. And it didn't matter how toxic these scenes were. Everything was working and they were being rewarded for it. And then on the bachelor side of things, not too long ago, there was these reports about toxic work environments and there was a kind of a cleaned house.

But even before that cleaning house, there was another cleaning house with, some shifting in roles. And even the top executives at the Warner Brother level are now new. So all the people, essentially all the people running, is certainly the biggest decision makers running the show, have really no history in how this show is made. They don't really understand the nuance and the care and consideration that has to go into setting up your lead for success,

how different the audiences are between secret lives. I mean, there's certainly a lot of overlap, and they were certainly betting on that. but it's a different audience with different expectations. Well, I think they saw that that difference in audience paid off for something like Dancing with the Stars. Of course, also owned by Disney. When they saw the success of Secret Lives and said, oh, we can put two, not even just one, but two of our cast members, because we'll make it a storyline on Secret Lives, on to Dancing with the Stars and help revive that franchise that also is going, you know, kind of plateauing.

And it worked because Dancing with the Stars was one of the biggest seasons for multiple reasons, but that was part of the reason. So it had one of their biggest seasons. So they thought, well, we can just throw it at The Bachelorette too. And maybe that also will work the same way, not realizing that not only is the audience different, but the expectation of a lead on the Bachelor franchise is completely different than a star of Dancing with the Stars or a member of an ensemble cast. And again, it's important. You said, you said, we, the decision makers, we could do this. And I think it's important context to consider the we involved is none of the people on the Warner Brothers' bachelor's side of things. No, it's the Disney over seeing the success. And the people historically, like the old guard, let's call it, like the people who used to work on these shows for years, the people like Susie and I know who really understood the nuances and were involved in all these

like last minute decisions of not making someone the lead when they thought they were going to make them the lead. Like they weren't involved in any of these decisions. And I haven't talked to anyone working on the show today. But my understanding of people who have talked to people, the bachelor producers, maybe not at the highest level, but the people working on the show were as equally surprised and is horrified to see what they saw on season four. Correct. Which is crazy to even think about. People involved in making Taylor, Frankie Paul's season of the bachelor's, had no idea what they were about to watch on season four knowing what her lead in, knowing that this was an entire season about a woman who was having

mental health struggles that was in this very toxic situation on season four. Again, I think sometimes as fans, we like, again, we suspend disbelief. We're watching these shows where we're doing other things. I watch it very differently. It's like I can see the matrix. I know when a scene's being made, right? I have the awareness of like that, okay, there's cameras there. There's, there's mics, right? So on season And how long it takes to get Mike Stup. I'm sure same for you, Susie. Yeah, but I have to say I'm weary to believe that like Bachelorette producers had no idea. Like do we know that like that to me feels almost impossible because they are kind of under the same umbrella and she's leaving and they literally know like producers from Secret Lives know she slept with Dakota the night before.

obviously maybe we don't know but I'm like I find it hard to believe that producers didn't know something going into The Bachelorette. I agree with what you're saying and that's what makes it so crazy is that I honestly don't think they did because they're completely two different entities.

Again, I think the people at Disney should have known but talking to old producers when they announced Taylor Frankie Paul is the Bachelorette. And again, like it probably should have never have happened. The show should have never existed from what we now know from this video. But, okay, here we are. The show does exist. Taylor Frankie Paul is a star. The people at Disney, they need a, they want to, you know, it's like a perfect storm of you have the show that can do

no wrong. You have the show that's trying to find a second life. And they, you know, they weren't in a position to tell anyone no, so to speak. But my point is, once they named her The Bachelorette, the producers I knew working in The Bachelor, would have insisted that at least one or many people, there would have been so many meetings about like, we need people on the ground of season four. They would have insisted on being there to oversee the production of season four, even though it's not their show.

And even though they don't have a say in how Secret Lives is filmed or edited, they would have insisted. So they know what they're going to. They would have said, if we're going to do this, we have to be heavily involved. Because if you're going to do this, you are, you're going to, you have to make sure they set her up for success.

I remember when I got out and announced to be The Bachelor on Paradise, right? I saw two different edits of the same episode. And it was honestly a subtle difference. And it wasn't even that big of a deal. But they made it look a little bit better than it was before. Because before when they weren't announcing me, they planning on having me The Bachelor, they wanted to play both sides.

They were like, oh, let's just, let's get people talking. But once they decided I was going to be The Bachelor, and honestly, at the end of the day, if they were to air the same version, but they were that careful about how they set up their person for success. Because again, this is a show that's, it's about someone finding love and open and ready and on some level, whether it's because they've had bad luck or whatever the reason, they are excited to finally meet their person. Let's be honest, most of us don't want managing our money to feel like a full-time job. That's why we like what GameBridge is doing, making it

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Plus, they offer an obsession guarantee. If you're not completely obsessed, you'll get your money back. That's O-L-L-I-E.com slash V-I-A-L. And enter code V-I-A-L to get 60% off your first box, Ollie, feed the obsession. Listening to y'all talking about production, I do think they had to know that the video existed. I can't imagine they didn't see it, but even if they didn't,

is that then an escape hatch? And it's not really about that video from 2023 coming to light. And it's about what they saw in season four and about the incident in February, but they can't really say it's about the incident in February because it's still being investigated. Is it more about season four and the incident? incident in February, and the video just becomes the excuse to put this on pause, because

I still have questions about whether it's canceled, as they said, we're not airing it at this time. I don't think it's from season four because the thing that really surprised me, and Nick and Susie, I'm interested to hear what you think, because when this report came out on the Monday that Secret Lives had stopped filming season five because of the February incident. Which we still don't really know. about. We just know there's complaints on both sides. We know to go to claims, but

we don't, you know, it's hard to even do that to talk about that without knowing the details. Well, we know to go to claims. Yeah. Because the court records are still, then TMZ seems to have them. Exactly. But this was after season 4 had aired. This was after Secret Live stops filming season 5 that they are like,

we are still going full steam ahead with Bachelor. They sent her to the Oscars. They sent her to the Oscars. They had her on Good Morning America and live with Kelly Mark, they had her doing a press event in New York that night where she spoke to reporters. I was on the phone with ABC almost every hour that day being like, is this still happening? Is this still happening? Because I was supposed to talk to her on Sunday night before the premiere.

And they were like, yes, she's still doing interviews. We are still airing. Up to Wednesday they were telling you. And that is the big question mark. We don't know what's going to come out. Is it any way match this horrific video from 23? Is it something else? But to your point, whatever it was, you assume they didn't.

an investigation, but whatever they knew, whatever they knew or didn't want to know, they were planning on moving forward. Question for you guys thinking about, well, first, I was reading this book, I've been reading this book, Q the Sun, it's like about the history of reality TV, it's really great. And there's this, like, line in it that has just been making me think about this. And it's the industry required, talking about reality TV, the industry required a new mindset, an ability to tolerate moral ambiguity, creating strange, temporary, but intense professional relationships whose residue would be edited into and in a sense become the show itself.

Working behind the scenes as a reality labor wasn't easy early on or more recently without union protection struggling the margins of Hollywood. Crew members were often flinty-eyed scrappers who became numb to and also proud of their ability to endure terrible work conditions. But for the people at the top, the job could be an intoxicant. It gave you the godlike power to create stories from the lives of ordinary human beings. And I just wonder if what you guys think about. the way kind of, not even the production company, but kind of like Disney at large,

their like distribution model with like Marvel, all of that kind of stuff, having this like melded cinematic universe. And if they kind of just got in their head of like, we have all of this reality TV world that we can meld the bachelor and dancing with the stars and Mormon wives into and then just forgot about the people involved.

Yeah, I mean, there's, I think there's been, yeah, corporate synergy. There's been examples of this over the years. But again, I think I've also worked on a lot of great sets with a lot of great producers and executives who like, you know, there's always the question is like, where's the line? Yeah. Well, there's speculation about the moral clause contract. And I'm curious, I signed my, that line didn't read really anything.

So I actually don't know, even though I was a contestant on the show. But I think a legal question might be if there is a moral clause in the Bachelorette's contract, how does that hold up if one, if the franchise actually knew about this? And two, if they didn't know about it and this was being hidden or they had never seen the video, is Taylor liable? Well, my, I'm obviously Emily Baker. I want to know your perspective. But I, first there were reports that Taylor Frankie Paul could be sued. I don't see any world that happens.

Again, I don't, you, you can't make the entire premise of the show, the plot line of season one of this actual incident. which you're acknowledging that you know about it. And then there is now video evidence of your treatment of this person and how you handle this incredibly sensitive case and these incredibly fragile people and the players involved. And then again, you have season four. You have Taylor Frankie Paul on camera talking about how unwell she is. And to me, if anyone has a case, it's Taylor Frankie Paul

in terms of how she was treated once this, once they started to greenlight these shows and move forward. It's interesting enough, there's that very famous Leah McSweeney. Am I getting her name right in Bravo? Yes, Liam McSweeney. So for those of you don't know, my understanding that case, again, like, and we've talked about reality TV stars

and their complaints, you know, you've, you know, I've heard reality TV stars say like, they kidnapped me when, you know, when reality, when they showed up for production, they were like, hey, you have to stay in this hotel room for three days. You can't have your phone. We can't have your phone.

And, you know, we've heard reality TV stars make, you know, kind of crazy accusations when you find out the details, like, that's not what that was, right? And then there's another spectrum of, again, some terrible behavior. Liam McSweeney's case is centered around. Her accusations are, you knew I had a problem. You knew I was an alcoholic, right? And it was that disability and that demon that I have was the very thing that you took advantage of and you put me in these situations. And while that case, that case is ongoing,

it is, it's seemingly having more success than any of these other cases that Bravo's had to face. Yes, Leah's, I mean, Leah's case just had a pretty extensive ruling come down from the same judge who's handling the Baldoni Lively case. He writes a lot, it's like a hundred page order. But it's moving forward to discovery. Bravo was trying really hard to put it into arbitration, mediation per their contracts. And the judge was like, this is going forward in court because the contracts don't really cover this to synthesize it down. But we're also seeing that in the Scandival lawsuit where Rachel is still suing Tom and Ariana and that case is still moving forward about things that happened because of the show. So there's a couple of these

lawsuits out there coupled with this that might truly change the way production goes forward. I would be very surprised if the contestants don't potentially sue, which I have a question for you all about. But also, I don't think they can morality clause something that they would have found with due diligence because it was public record, whether they saw the video or not. All those public records say that a video does exist. Now, the incident after filming, I would want to evaluate what happened and what the clauses say about after filming, because that February incident then becomes a question mark, but not for March and not for 2023 and not for that incident in 2020. in the video in 2020, because they would have known,

there's a fine line there. And again, use that incident as the plot line of the entire show. Right. Like, it wasn't like when they decided to greenlit this show, whatever meeting they had where they said, hey, by the way, though, there's this domestic violence incident. No, they used it as a plotline. They're like, no, we're going to lead with it.

We're going to focus on it, which I think it's just completely just, changes the optics. Well, and that's the thing is, like we said, we go back to, the video showed us how awful this incident was, but it was all out there. It was probably, we read this, we read the report. She knew that her daughter was in the room. She did several interviews, giving, saying the details that she didn't remember, she was the aggressor. She was the aggressor. She threw several chairs. She didn't remember hitting her daughter, but that it was stated that that Dakota did tell police that she hit her. So yeah, this has been something we'd know. Again, seeing it in person or seeing it in video is harder.

Completely jarred. And I think all fans watching it just, I guess, took for granted that these people in positions of power that you would think would do the due diligence kind of failed us all. And again, going back to season four, like, I think fans need to realize what they're watching. In season four, they send Dakota to Vanderpumpfella. Right. and it's like cheat island all the husbands go and they're playing truth or dare and apparently allegedly Dakota hooks up with someone and now you're filming season four and then you have a scene where Jesse and Jordan are miced up and clearly there was a conversation that happened before

they filmed this scene saying and this is how they make reality TV right like the premise is no one's an actor so the way to get the most authentic real response is to like you get the surprise on camera. That mindset can be done with rather benign incidents where you just get someone who's like in a pressure cooker environment and it's honestly not that serious and you get an outrageous reaction or you get, again, in this situation, just now that we have it all in perspective, this very toxic and dangerous relationship that started in 2023, which to Emily Baker's point, and in any other case probably would have been a protective order where

you would have gone out of your way to keep these parties separated from each other for everyone's safety. The opposite happened. And now on camera, the question is, would you do that to your worst enemy? Would you, if they found out that this person, they have a hard time going back and forth with, hooked up with someone else, and on camera, surprise them with this news so you can capture their breakdown? Their breakdown? Right. But that is the premise of a lot of reality TV.

I hate to say that, but that's the honest truth. I just didn't know that was the premise when a DV incident was going to say that's the difference. Yeah. Is this very toxic, dangerous, as you, the word you use, it's so accurate that there was already police reports involved. You know that these people are not in a good state of mind. And as an audience, we were sold that even though this incident where we didn't see the video, that we assume there was an investigation. and we assume that as bad as it was and the story that we heard

that they did their due diligence and that it was okay for these people to be in the same room and to be on camera together. And seasons one through three yeah there was some drama between the two but essentially like Taylor was the star and looked great and then all of a sudden season four comes out and it's

just like a 180 and she's clearly not over him she's clearly has some mental health struggles we now go back and like there's like Taylor's posting about her mental health. She's out there wanting to talk about her mental health. She's like, I want to, I want to talk about my, and we all were just like liking the video and like, and like, and you go back and it's just like, again, you can condemn the video. It's horrific. Like we were talking about

earlier. People shouldn't have to say no to opportunities, but at the same time, they shouldn't be given one that is not healthy. Is one former bachelor producer told me, like, there were no adults in the room. And I just want to give credit to the women involved, because this all, this all starts. again with whatever happened in February, with these women allegedly coming forward and saying, enough's enough. Something, this is,

something as bad is happening here. And, you know, they're all adults, but like, you know, often producers refer to their cast as kids. There's a huge power dynamic

between producer and cast member. And there is an expectation, there's a level of trust. And even in the, like, when you're making, in most sets, again,

like a lot of time there are conversations and acknowledgement of making TV. There's those like, all right, you do this for me, I'll do this for you. You might get some heat for this, but it's all going to be good when the dust settles. And there is a relationship and there's a level of trust. And clearly none of that was going on here. I mean, even back in season one, again, I went back and watched some season one episodes this weekend. And I mean, at one point when Taylor's like, you know, they're having the discussion of if she shouldn't be in mom talk anymore because of this, because of the arrest.

And Whitney says, like, you know, we're not going to get brand deals when we have someone that's like, throwing chairs at people. So it was literally said in season one. Yeah, they all knew. There's now a clip going around of the women confronting Taylor, Taylor, and saying, I know how you treat Dakota. It's a, you know, like, you're not the hero you think you are because you're keeping a secret and you're only bringing it up to weaponize it against that person.

Right. And then it begs the question again, like, why aren't you coming forward? And you can't claim it's for the kids. Nothing about this situation is for the kids. No. I have a question. It's kind of based on a maybe dark theory that Emily Baker, you were saying, you explained the, I think it's IP of the video, which makes a lot of sense. I don't know anything about this. So it makes sense that there's a watermark. So now TMZ owns the video. Is it possible that there was a person or an entity that owned the video after Dakota and that he signed that over to somebody and that somebody was for something like a network or somebody was sitting on it and. wanted to release. I think you, maybe you said something about the incident in February. Is that really what this is about and releasing the video was more so a scapegoat to actually having to go

through with the season? I know that's maybe potentially a crazy theory, but is it possible that Dakota could have released it to somebody else? And then that person or a thing released it to TMZ? And would we ever get a final answer, like legally? Is there a way to get that answer? Well, IP intellectual property, who owns the copyright in that if Dakota had sold the copyrights in it, that should be contracted somewhere. He has not come out to my knowledge and said, I did not release this in a very strong way. I saw some vague statements from his people that said he wouldn't do something to hurt Taylor in that way. But I don't think I saw him say, and I might be mistaken, that he didn't release it. Could he have sold the copyrights in that?

I saw something where his team suggested and pointed out that this video existed at 2023 and that the authorities had it, suggesting that that's where it came from. And I think that's absolutely not where it came. Right. Would it be incorrect based on what you've explained. But could he have sold the copyrights to an intermediary? Yes. But you would have, I would expect him to have put that out there and distanced it, especially since it came out on their child's birthday. wouldn't one expect it to come out that I did not release this on this day.

I did not have control of this. But then it raises the other question of this is still evidence in a case that is still ongoing because she's still on probation. So why would you sell the copyright in it? Because then it can surface at any time. And that seems potentially an issue. But yes, it's theoretically possible that he could have sold the copyright in that elsewhere, but he was the copyright holder.

So he would have had to affirmatively do that at some point for it to be owned by TMZ. Okay. So he would basically know if it was sold to, yeah, I mean, obviously, he would know if it was sold to somebody or something. Right. And if he didn't want it on him, he'd be like, wait, guys, I sold this to. Right. And his team would have jumped at the opportunity to say, like, it wasn't in. Right. He doesn't own the, right, whatever anymore. Yeah. And I mean, there's, there, this happens on YouTube all the time. And it happens with other companies that if they own the intellectual property or the copyright and something, they can give those copyrights over to another company to take those things down off the internet if they get out there. There are companies that do that and actively protect copyrights and go around and take it down.

We see it a lot with music, but it's theoretically possible to say, I never want this to see the light of the day. Here's a company that's going to actively rip things down off the internet in case it ever leaks. but we've seen no information about that. And I don't know if we would because how can that get out there if he's not sending that video around? Because it's never coming out by the police. It's never coming out by the district attorney's court doesn't have it. Right. So it's not like a dash cam.

Emily Baker, I have a question. I don't know if this makes any sense. But Disney as a company is so focused on keeping things tight on lock. They have so much power. as far as like what they can keep out of like media narratives. And so would it be correct to assume that if they really wanted to scrub a lot of this stuff about Taylor, they could or no? Disney couldn't scrub this video if TMZ owns the copyright in it. So there's nothing Disney can do with that if TMZ owns the video.

And also everything that we know is from the show. Well, it's from the show or she's talked about or she's been open about. and we've accepted her or you haven't accepted her, but she's been honest about everything that we have known about her thus far. There was also an NBC article where on this call that the women of Secret Lives had... This is before Bachelor was pulled.

This is before Bachelor was pulled, that there was this alleged Zoom call with the women who wanted to pause filming and some executives with Disney. And that video strongly suggests that the executives didn't want to know. Yeah, they said, I don't know a lot, nor do I want to know too much. And that's just shocking to hear, but it just speaks to, yeah, again, like if they really wanted to know about this video or if they saw it or didn't see it or, you know, at least understood the severity of it.

It just seems like they just did the bare minimum just so they could get this show green light. Well, I think it's also going back to what you said at the beginning that it's not, it's not the team that it used to be. because ultimately she was on probation when she got cast. At the end of the day, she was on probation for, and it had a felony on her record. She would, back in the day, that you would never even have gotten looked at twice if you're on probation. Not at all.

And again, like, you know, it does, you know, obviously the franchise, bachelor franchise, you know, again, like many of us were excited and supported Taylor, Frankie Paul being the bachelor's at with the idea that like this, the franchise needed a, needed something new and needed a refresh. They needed to be you know, they needed to catch up with the times.

But again, what I am just so shocked as someone who's familiar with Bachelor World, the, again, this is a story to me about like from the very beginning, whether it's of negligence, in sloppiness, and just a lack of consideration

for the cast involved from the very beginning. And to once you did make her the bachelorette, the, just the lack of effort and conversations that went into making sure they were setting her up for success. And it's just interesting, again, to think, consider that the people who make secret lives, you know, they're the ones winning the Emmys. They're the ones that's the biggest show in town. And so if I guess, you know, I don't, I have, I mean, I know the players involved, but I don't know how familiar are with,

I don't know if they watched The Bachelor or they were fans or they followed it or they cared about it or they knew its audience. If you work in reality TV, you're aware of it. You're aware of it. But again, like I just know, like I said before, I don't know what happened and didn't happen or what conversations, you know, once they named Taylor Frankie Paul the Bachelorette. I just know the people who used to be in charge and I know exactly what they would have done. Many of them would have fought to have her named the Bachelorette. That I understand now from talking to them. But if that wasn't their decision, if they got vetoed at a higher level, they certainly would have said, fine.

But these are the things that must be done for us to move forward. And that obviously did not happen. It also begs the question like, she is an adult. She is the mother to three children. The second that her hitting her child with that stool, that should have absolutely sent her into a rehab facility to get better. That should have been the wake-up call that anyone has ever needed. I don't think her environment or her support system allowed her.

her the space to get help. I don't think anyone was, they're filming these seasons back to back. We have heard her on camera, miced up saying like, I'm not okay. I'm not well. I need help. I don't want to do this. And it just became storyline. And all of it became storyline. No one was like, maybe we should take her serious. Maybe we should pause. Give her six months in a rehab. Maybe she'll come back better. And then another thing to consider is that Secret Lives was filming at an unprecedented pace. Like we're already on season four, they're filming season five. And so Taylor literally went in from filming season four being put in these positions. Like the day before, because they filmed the day before. And then went into filming the bachelorette, which again,

from personal experience is just, it is a, one is the most difficult times of my life of everything is demanded of you. It's exhausting. It's every day, 18 hours a day. You are responsible for all these other people's emotions and feelings. You have the pressure, the literal pressure of having to get engaged or the audience will think you're ungrateful. That is, you know, and then she got done filming the show. We assume that she's in some kind of relationship. And it's my understanding, they immediately picked up the cameras and started filming season five of Secret Lives of She put her back with her toxic ex who she has had domestic violence. And to say it kindly is reckless.

And I think it's honestly far more nefarious that. It is, I think it's, it's. Do you think secret lives continues after this? I think that's a big question. A lot of people are having conversations about, well, is this the end of Bachelor? Yeah, well, I want to ask you that also. Probably. But I think the real question is, Bachelor was, it may be a legacy show, but it was already on pause.

Right. Secret Lives of Mormon Wines. is the number one reality TV out there. I don't see how Taylor can come back, especially as we are understanding the context of the environment she was made to put in. She can't come back. Could it continue without her?

I don't think it can, honestly, don't think it can continue without her. There's already division in the group. And then how do you even air season five? Whatever they have filmed, how do you air that with Taylor still in it? And again, now we have a lot more eyes on just how dark this situation is and not a lot more people are going to be questioning, is this okay? Well, there has been cases in reality TV before.

There was a season of the challenge when one of the people in it got canceled for saying some controversial things. And the season had already filmed and they literally edited her out of the whole season. Yeah, but that's not this. Is that something they can do in season 5? I don't know how much he's involved,

but there's a difference between, again, someone doing something very wrong outside of the show and having him being one part of a storyline. Like I think they edit. edited it out to me from season four. Sure. You do. Yes. I think parts of it, but she's still in.

She's still in it. Right. They couldn't do it all. And again, you've got to understand that this is, like, the show itself is centered around this DV situation. Yeah. And I mean, Taylor is the star. She makes the most amount of money. She is the top person on the call sheet. Which wasn't that in the NBC news?

Wasn't that they tried to like, they argued against that, yeah. Because they made more. Well, apparently. there are rumors that or there's speculation of bringing like Miranda or Leila. I think those are complete rumors. There's silly fan theories.

Well first of all, the seasons air. That's people talking as if like this is filmed live. I know. And a lot of people like I think a lot of people who don't who if you're not in the business or you've not have a connection with the industry, it's like it's hard to realize that the amount of time in effort they'd have to shoot a whole new seat.

It's a whole new season. It's so much for sure. The other, yeah, the other rumors that there's Taylor's season will air on Hulu and so ABC. I think that's the question is like, will they just dump it all on Hulu, which in my mind, that's how Mormon Wives is. But also, that's going to get more views than it would be in the ABC anyways. I'm going to sidesteps some of the scandal putting it on Hulu, where they've aired all the other seasons of Mormon wives. But then also, if there's contractual issues for the male contestants, not having the season air, what does that look like? and does that mitigate some of the potential damage with the contestants who,

and I don't know what the structure looks like for Bachelor, but took the time out to film, I don't know what that looks like for them if it doesn't air. And I don't, I really don't know, and I'm sorry, I feel very Bachelor Nation ignorant, but they don't know who the Bachelorette is when they show up, right? They did know this time. They know this time, but sometimes they do.

Sometimes they don't. Yeah, because they all want it made it like we want it. were here for Taylor. So they also were able to do the, do the background check first, too. I will just say that. Because a lot of, some of them are very eager to get out on social media. And as you said in the beginning, share their hot takes, which is fair. But you also knew who you were going on for. We have to say that.

But back to your discussion about secret lives. And will that, does that have a life outside of this? Another interesting, and I'm curious your perspective, Emily, Disney has a new CEO. I think like last week was their first week on the job. No. Yes. Tough week.

Which means that there's no goodwill for any of the high level people at Disney. Yeah. Like if you're a new CEO, you have every incentive at this point to clean house. Because unfortunately, that's how the business works here. Right. When someone new takes over a lot of the time, there are layoffs right away because they're trying to lower the costs. So now it's like, well, who do we cut? Well, not that they deserve that.

But let's assume, okay, setting that aside, you look at Secret Lives. All right. Well, okay, let's say they decide to put Batch rat in Hulu because somehow that gives them something. Some freedom as a streamer that they don't have to worry about like corporate sponsors or something like that. Well, again, are they cutting Taylor from it? If they cut Taylor from it, I think anyone who knows about this industry, all I've heard is that like Taylor Frankie, if anyone has a case about how, you know, it's Taylor. So it is in Disney's best interests to keep that relationship good. So are you firing her and then moving on without her? It's almost like just end the show and start a new show. Yeah.

Or do they keep her on while fans are all like how is that going to play? Again, it's the question of what's worth it for ratings. Because will it get ratings? Yes. If The Bachelorette aired tomorrow, every single one of us would be watching. We can all say that. So it is this conversation of what is worth it for ratings and what is protecting someone's mental health and,

honestly, they're safety and their children. So I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if this means that the Bachelorette should err or that Mormon wives should err. I guess that's, you know, above my pay grade. But I do have a question about contestants. What, what do they legally can they? Do they have a case? Emily, is that something that could they? I know there's been some rumors about that. I don't know what their contracts look like. I would love y'all's perspective on what that looks like for the contestant end and what their contracts look like going in if there is an obligation to air, because that gives me a little bit more information. But I imagine pay structure is based on how long you're on the show. And not by filming. Does that work by when it's released? I don't remember the contract I signed. I know it was a very long one. And I know if I'm in

I didn't get a lawyer to look at it back in the day the first time I signed the contract. But I was reminded that you are signing every right you have away by saying, you know, and It was my understanding that Warner Brothers legal, because that's the contract Bachelor People signed, it's with Warner Brothers, not with Disney, that they covered every angle to protect the network and not the cast members. My guess is if it's like some sort of class action lawsuit, I don't know how much the men have to gain. They would also be ending their reality TV careers before it started, you know, if they

decided to get together ensue. You mentioned you make as much money as based on how high. far you go. You make no money. At least, unless they have changed it with having a celebrity. They have not. They have not. They have not. Yeah. When I was on the show and I think everybody else, you do not get paid to be a contestant. So you kind of put your life on pause. And a lot, like, I knew a lot of girls that quit their jobs to go on this show for the opportunity, for the, you know, everything that comes with it potentially or just falling in love or just having fun or whatever that looks like. But you do not make a penny. And a lot of people go into debt to

provide wardrobe and all these things for the show. And not that there's, I don't think there's any legal protection for the contestants, I don't know. I feel like I signed away everything and was just like hope for the best. Hope for the best. But I don't know that for sure. Oh, I was told before going,

you are not guaranteed a spot until you are walking out of the limo. You could be an alternate. Like, you could stay this whole quarantine in the hotel and you still might not be on the show. And I was like, I was assuming that was my role because they warned me. And that happened almost every season. Yeah. Where someone flies out, does all the things, and then there's a knock on their hotel room and letting him with a plane ticket.

Emily Baker, you mentioned earlier the timing of this video being released and it being released on their son's birthday. What does that tell you? It's just a very odd timing that I would think that if this was unknown, that it was unknown that it was. was coming out, you would have seen very large statements of denial that we didn't see. So that's what I was. I was looking for very big statements of denial. And I saw very big statements from Taylor's camp. I did not see statements that were quite as loud in denial from Dakota's camp. They were sidestepping. And then TMZ's statements were also sidestepping. And I don't know, I mean, the child's birthday lining up with the release of.

of The Bachelorette. But it's also, my lawyer mind is quite cynical. There is a custody case going on between Dakota and Taylor, and that has been ongoing. That has now changed because of his protective order. Was he granted temporary? Yes, because of the new protective order filing that was filed the same day that the video came out. The protective order filing that came out the same day that the video came out had the sealed documents that TMZ has about the February. 2026 incident and the details of those and then it kind of all lumps together. So those things

all happened on the same day. What do you think, what do you make of Dakota filing for that protective order when he did after the video is released compared to like why? Like when it happened? Like three years ago. Three years ago or even. Yeah. But or anytime before. or in February. But they also were in and on and off relationship. Like we can't remember that they were also like together for some of them. Yeah. Well, it's just like, but just when you think about the timeline of these events, again,

we were first made aware that something happened in February between these two. A lot of, we don't, we, we know less than what we know. Then the women come forward and say, this isn't okay. We need to put this on pause. They, the executives are essentially forced to honor that request. And then all of a sudden, like, beginning of last week, then this more and more information comes out from very intimate information from Dakota's side, his call log, you know, other rumors from their relationship that seem very tied to, you know,

and it just feels like, and when you consider that clip that we aired from Macy, it just kind of felt like that last week, Monday was the beginning of getting a story out there and then like, and then all of a sudden, but like, oh, no, they're still moving forward. Then more information came out. no, they're still moving forward. Then more information came out. No, they're still moving forward. And then it's like, all right, then they dropped the thing that was,

despite the kids being involved, despite, you know, how this was going to affect, you know, these children going forward in these families. It just seemed like there were the termination. To ruin her. When did filming of five stop? Do we know roughly when that happened? So, no.

It was announced on Monday. It was announced on Monday, but the incident between them happened the end of February. So I think they said that 24th, 25th, And I think within two days after the incident, the women were like, we don't want to film these conversations. It's just not appropriate. Yeah. And they were, I think, in the middle of season five.

But that all happened in the session. He couldn't file the protective order while they're filming if he's still filming with her because that's where his money's tied in. We don't know. Remember at the end of season three, I think it was, he had refused to film. So there may have been a point where he stopped filming. We don't know that. And that's also a question for production, Nick, because production's looking at a very volatile situation. and if either of them, Taylor or Dakota is trying to opt out,

production continuing to force them into the same space, yes, might be good for the show, but you are pushing on a powder keg of a volatile situation that she truly stands quite a lot to lose because she's on probation. And if she does not complete that probation successfully, there will be a felony aggravated assault on her record. And so there's a lot of questions for me around

whether, I mean, clearly he filmed season four. I don't know if he was filming season five, but where that protective order gets filed, I wonder if it coincides with the end of filming or if it coincides with the release of the video and him being concerned about retaliation or about custody because custody is also part of that protective order because there's still an investigation and a criminal case hasn't been filed yet. It's not uncommon to see a protective order get filed potentially before a criminal case gets filed. But there's a lot of legal wrapped up in all of this. So the timing of filming, I'm wondering if that plays into the protective order or a concern about recommendation for the video.

I will also say when filming stopped, I spoke to two separate executives that had said to me that it wasn't that serious, that like they thought that filming would be back up within a week. Like they did not think it was like something like this case that first case was. So we don't, obviously they don't know because they don't know. We don't know. If that's true. But they did not seem worried, I will say. Taylor's obviously has put out, I think, one statement, right, since all of this has happened. Yes.

She was saying that obviously this is, you know, she has been enduring abuse at the hands of Dakota for a really long time. Emily, would she need video proof to have any legitimacy towards that? Or, like, is her, like, what she's been through and what she has to say enough? I mean, it really depends on the context because I think watching the seasons of the show, and I have not finished season four, I don't think there's a question that the interactions between the two of them are incredibly toxic. And though the incident in 2023, she took responsibility for, I still have questions from the 911 call that's talking about the garage door opening and closing. You or her talking about it in the body cam footage. there are more to the incidents than what we're seeing. I don't know what production saw and cut and did not air that's going on between the two of them,

but we also see in filming and we don't know how much is cut, y'all know better than I do, that there's times when she seems to go from zero to 60 and being angry about things that she's learning, things that she's seeing, and the cast acknowledges that. So does she need video? She might have it, depending on what production has caused. and I think a lot of people have seen her experiences, but I think to Nick's point, the question remains,

where are the boundaries of production when somebody is in a cycle that is continuing to get more and more volatile and cameras are constantly up? She's not going to take a break. I mean, realistically, what does her choosing to walk away from the Bachelorette cost her? Like, what's the opportunity cost of that? And is that a decision someone can make that's already under that much duress.

And could she have been threatened with quitting the show if her contracts suggested that she had to fulfill her obligations? Right. You know, I mean, it almost seemed in season four that she did not want to be the bachelorette. She almost seemed like she was not almost. She literally said she didn't want to.

There's so many scenes of her looking really bad. Not and not like just like not well. Yeah. You had her co-star saying you're not well. What's the opportunity cost of that, though? Yeah. What's the cost of being the Bachelorette for her, but also for her castmates? Does her being the Bachelorette buoy her castmates in what their opportunities might look like?

And is there an incentive there, too, to say, you've got to be the Bachelorette because it benefits downstream. 100%. You get her mom, her family, you know, like that pressure of you need to do this. I mean, yeah, that's a great question, Emily. It raises a lot of questions. And again, who knew what when for all the people who were in our orbit? And again, I do as far as the women on this show, you know, the fact that they did come forward, I think they do deserve a lot of credit for they had as much to lose as anyone.

And they still had the guts to say enough is enough. This isn't okay. But again, like I also can't get past like the last episode of season four. Again, like we watched Dakota walk into Taylor's house with the baby, and we just assume we're just like observers on the sidewalk. That is a scene. So how did they know Dakota was going to go there? He had as a smirk on his face after they clearly hooked up that night as he's leaving. So like... Did they stay there all night? Did he call them that morning and be like, hey, I'm about to walk out? Do you want to pick up cameras? Is productions having conversations with Dakota saying like, hey, man, this is your last chance and egging him on and things like that? Also, how much footage exists that we didn't. get to see that's that's on the cutting room floor that if there is legal action taken there's so much more evidence about how all these things went down right to me season four of secret lives is like a documentation of her treatment and their lack of consideration for her well-being and anyone tied

to these two shows even though there's a lot of like there's a lot of opportunity for a lot of people to say well that wasn't my lane so to speak but then the question is who does it boil up to and who what where does the buck stop so to speak because you you can't have these multi million dollar enterprises with a bunch of people being like that wasn't my responsibility like during that 11 month break they should have all agreed that Taylor frankie paul and Dakota do not deserve any sort of platform they're not okay enough to have this platform or to have this TV show they clearly need help. There is something going on here.

There is a bigger picture and they should not have been handed the pressure of this franchise and clearly like supporting her family, the pressure of the Bachelorette. Like it's just it shouldn't have been, she was not okay enough to have all that. And again, you can see this video

and you can condemn it for what it is and it's a horrifying video. And I think you can still have empathy for the situation that Taylor was put in. And I still think you can think, think it's really gross after we kind of consider how this all went down. And again, this video happened in 2023. I think most people would agree. The show never should have gotten green light. And that would have been, she would have been better off than propping her up, building her up,

setting her up, putting her on this massive platform, and then destroying her. And again, even if this video doesn't come out, the way they set up season four going to the Bachelorette, it was going to be horrific for her. without question. People, you know, all the new, all the, all the, all the Bachelor fans that didn't watch Secret Lives were going to start, you know, seeing clips. And when it would, when it got real messy on the show, they were going to go to start looking at all these things.

And it was just going to be a horrific experience for Taylor no matter what. And I find that to be deplorable. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to ask you again and Susie, is this the end of the Bachelor franchise? I mean, probably, I don't. know. It's hard to say because you go back to what is it about? Is it about

ratings? I mean, if they were to insist to cast, like right now there's a lot of eyes on Bachelor Nation and the show itself. So if they decided to make another show it would have hype. Yeah. There would be interest. Right. And are they, I guarantee you, Warner

Brothers feels like they got screwed by the people at Disney. And again, that's not to say that they weren't responsible. again, whoever they decided to hire or how they chose to run that franchise, there's a lot of criticisms. I think they were wildly underprepared. I don't think they had the expertise to know what to do to how to handle this franchise and how those decisions are made. I don't know. But there's, there was just so much negligence on so many areas across Disney, Warner Brothers, the production

of Secret Lives that like this never should have happened. And there was so, I had someone like a friend talk about like it almost reminds them of the housing crisis like the big shore where it was like for secret lives it was like it was everyone's making money everyone it like they couldn't do anything wrong and and people just lost the plot and then it all caught it all caught up with them and came crashing down. But at the end of the day again I think people just need to be reminded there are some serious victims in the situation. Starting with the children. Starting with the children. and many people after that. And I think, again, there's more questions to be answered and asked. There's, I think, a lot more that's going to come out.

But I hope, you know, I hope we did a good job just, you know, sending the groundwork or painting an accurate picture of how this happened and why didn't need to happen and how dark of a situation this is for everyone involved. I actually have no idea if it will continue or not. Like, I genuinely think it's 50-50. I'm curious as somebody that has been reporting on it and you watch it, you watch it, you consume it. Do you think would fans be receptive if they were to do something, if they just went in a different direction or did something else? Do you think fans would appreciate it or watch?

I think fans would watch. I don't, it's tough because I don't think it'd be responsible in my personal opinion, too, Eric. I think it would do well. I think it would, of course, do well. I think if the Bachelor franchise is going to continue, I say go full, like, fun paradise just skip over this and just go into paradise next summer let the let the like air settle do you think these men cat you think these men an opportunity on paradise we have breaking news um jordan has just filed a restraining order against jesse according to court documents obtained by

tmz and she filed an opposition to the tRO of the same day uh let me pull up the docket real quick because he filed for divorce, right? Yeah. If he filed for divorce last week, filing a civil protective order might, filing a civil protective order is done online. It's the same thing that Dakota did. And it can start to set what the custody arrangement looks like

while the divorce is pending. So let me pull those up real quick. We know that Jesse and Jordan are getting divorced. clearly there's a lot of information coming out. Again, this speaks to their, this is an ongoing story and the fallout continues. And again, this speaks to like,

just, I don't think Secret Lives has a future. Not this cast. I think those are a world that they can do a spin-off. But I just don't, with all this toxicity and all this darkness around this cast,

things have clearly fallen off the rails. It's like as a culture, we need to see this and be like, okay, do we need to take a step back? My experience with Jordan has not been very positive. My experience with Jesse has been. It's really giving that Jordan's following Dakota's lead,

but that's a speculation at this point. I think obviously lets us see how things play out. But again, it's important to condemn this video. Again, I think you can still have empathy for Taylor. And I think, you know, in our experience, we've become friends with her over the years and gotten to know her. I've seen her bring a lot of joy to a lot of people's lives, you know, and again, that doesn't in any, you know, but I just, this is this a really sad situation. And it doesn't need to happen.

And I just think there are a lot of humans in here that just no one, no one looked out for them. No one gave a fuck about them. And I think the question is, is who benefited from not looking into it, staying silent, not bringing up a video. Like, there's a lot of people who benefited from not bringing this to light much sooner than it did. And maybe they didn't because now they're losing money. Ultimately, millions, I mean, around probably 50 to 60 million is going to be lost if this doesn't air. What are you able to find, Emily? All right. So, what's relation to the divorce of Jesse and Jordan that was filed on March 19th, the same day that the video came out, the same day that everybody was at the courthouse. There was a domestic

relations injunction that is pretty standard filed that day. But then after that, a temporary restraining order was requested on March 20th. And then an opposition was also filed on March 20th. But everything on the docket from March 20th is sealed. Everything and the oppositions are sealed. So there is quite a bit of litigation that happened on March 20th. all of it sealed, all of it was requested to seal the entire case file. So if any documents are obtained from this docket, there is always an outside possibility that they were public for just a blip, but that's incredibly unlikely. However, there is nothing inherently improper about parties providing those to TMZ. It just becomes a more directed placement. It's not that they're obtained

through the court docket because the entire court docket, less of very few things are sealed. And a request to keep the case sealed is all from March 20th. So that was all done then. And the motion for the restraining orders and the oppositions are all within that divorce docket that started on the 19th the same day that everything else. Yeah. And TMZ says they did see the court docs.

So someone did show them to them. If like you said, they may have been, as we know, they may have been public for a few minutes, but they would have needed what heads up? It's unlikely to me based on this docket that they would have been public for a blip because I don't see a filing on there that indicates where it was asked to seal those or remove those from the public docket. Of course, it is always possible that there is a blip before they are sealed, but that's unlikely when the party filing it is the same party who the documents are seen from. because generally if the party filing it chooses to file it unsealed, the other party comes in and says, no, please seal these. And then it happens later and you see that filing.

And that's not what I'm seeing on this docket. Is it an outside possibility? Of course. Is it likely? No. Well, a lot more that I'm sure we'll get into is this all unfolds. I just want to thank both Emmys for joining us. You've been super helpful.

And I hope you guys all appreciate this conversation. And again, it's a lot of gratitude to both you women for helping us have this conversation. We're not done yet here with this episode. We do have Vanessa and Leah from Age of Attraction up next to talk about their experiences going in the finale, which is this Wednesday on Netflix. We also have a big announcement here at the Vial Files coming out on Wednesday as well. We are excited to bring to you. But up next, we have Leah and Vanessa, and then we'll see you back on Thursday. Let me guess you've got a folder of saved Instagram workouts. You've You never actually do.

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and healthy. And right now you can save $20 off your first order and get free shipping by going to ChewPanions.com. That's ChewPenions.com slash vial files to save $20 off your first order with free shipping, chewpanions.com slash vial files. Minimum purchase required, new customers only. Terms and conditions apply C-Sight for complete details. Leah, Vanessa, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having us. How are you ladies doing? I'm excited to see you guys. Excited to see you both. Well, I've asked everyone this question. what drew you to this show and why did you say yes to age of attraction? Well, first of all, I live in a really small town, so I don't get to meet a lot of people.

And so I really wanted to take the opportunity just to get out and meet other people. And then when I heard that they didn't get to know how old I was, it was like fantastic because I was the one lying on the apps and saying I was younger because I did. I always lied on there. I just scroll down and born in 1985. I was even now. Yeah. Yeah, I was scrolling down.

I was like, whatever. Yeah, I was not going to put my age on there. Because when you did, I mean, it's just what the people that I was meeting in the group or the people that were wanting to swipe on me were not the people I wanted to swipe with, you know? So I wanted to not be judged for my age, really, honestly. And so for me, I had to give that back and not judge other people for their age. Were you drawn to younger men? Yeah.

So I didn't go to college until I was the teen mom, so I went to college a little bit later when my daughter started going to school. So that was seven years later. So I started dating people that were seven years younger than me, you know. And so for me, then I just kind of fit in more with like the younger people. Oh, interesting. Yeah. But, I mean, never did I think I was going to be this young. We're here now.

I mean, I was like, no. You didn't realize you'd develop a taste. No. So my sister used to always joke because she said that I like the 22-year-olds and she would call them Duce Duce. And so I was like, they're saying Duce Duce and I'm just keeping in. What about you, Leah? For me, my sister-in-law sent me the application. She was like, you should do it.

You should try it. And I was like, you know what? What I have to lose? Because I'm still single. You know, I haven't met the right person. So, and I figured if it actually works out. maybe this is like my person, you know? Because like, God got me this opportunity for a reason.

It's kind of dope. I'm like, out of all these people, you know, I applied. I was like, I think everyone else got founded. Everyone got reached out to. I didn't. I was writing. I think it took me hours. You know what I mean?

Just trying to be myself. I'm telling you, I was like, I had to save it, screenshot it because it would time out. Yes, it's a process. And so I was like, well, if a man's doing this, you know, this has got to be good. And so for me, I was like, the more the merrier. Okay. Let's see what's up. And, you know, hearing from Vanessa, she was like, yes, they don't get to know my age.

Obviously, with the show, as you ladies both know, we obviously were interested in exploring relationships with age differences. But you had the opportunity to meet plenty of men your age. When you went into this, were you, had you dated younger men before? Was that something that you found yourself doing? Or was a relationship with Chris something that was new for you? So I've dated both older and younger. So when I was younger, I dated older, when I was now older, the young ones come to me because I don't look my age. And I just don't even tell them anymore because they don't believe me.

And so when Chris came, what, 26? I was like, you know what? He said he came to me very confidently, like the way he looked at me and then he said he made money. I was like, well, he sounds like he's set, you know. He knows what he wants and who he is. So I'm like, well, why not? I mean, I've dated other 20 or, you know, upper 20s. And it was fine.

We did see that you, Vanessa, had, you explored Chris. It ultimately did not work out. Exploring so heavy. What was that? Explorations. Like, yeah. You went on a journey with Chris. You did an experiment with Chris.

Sure did. What was it about Chris that just didn't work for you? He did come on kind of. strongly in the beginning. And I was just, you know, open to it. But then as I got to talk to him a little bit more, I just felt like there was a disconnect. Like I just felt we just, we weren't aligning, you know. And for me, I thought there's got to be some, this isn't it for me, you know. So it was a disconnect. At the pier is when you find out when you, when we first all get to Vancouver, Right. You find out for the first time that that was a thing. A thing. First, did you think that she knew going into that? Yes. I assume because I had spoken with my partner about it. So I assumed that they would. But you had conversations. You, I mean, we saw you kind of work through that. Was that a hard thing for you too to work through? No. It was we literally, once we were able to talk about it, we, I let him know what was going on how I felt. And we sat on the couch and I just told him how I felt.

And I told him, I was like, I fell very alone. Like, I didn't know, like everyone knew because Vanessa had told her partner, I'm pretty sure probably ASAP. And then Chris went this whole time and never even crossed his mind to tell me. And so for me, I'm like, well, why? Because he literally harped on the fact that he's such a good communicator. He's like, I'm a great communicator. I was like, okay, awesome. And then, you know, he does speeches for a living.

I was like, great. And then when it comes, push came to shove, he couldn't even just let me know what happened. Because we weren't even dating, so I wouldn't have even been mad at the fact. I was like, it just been nice of heads up instead of building blindside because I thought everyone knew. I thought all the girls knew, all the men knew, and I was like, wow.

Not everyone, now. Yeah, I know now you are. I'm curious in that moment, you know, with this show, obviously being centered around age differences, did you see that as a sign of immaturity from Chris and, you know, oh, it showed that he is younger? Or was that just more like,

not like character because that's kind of heavy? but like you can be a 40-year-old and withhold some important facts in dating as well. How did you see it in that moment? For me, because he did come across like, oh, I'm a great communicator. For me, it's like, he, how do you say this? It's more of a character flaw, I would say. Because I can't say immaturity because I've, he's had tough conversations with people, you know. But I don't think he's had it with women because he also led me to believe, like, that he did.

a lot of older women. And so then when I asked him, he was like, well, technically we didn't really date. We kind of just had like a thing. And so I was like, oh, so you're not used to hard conversations in general. So I think that plays a huge role. And at that point, like, did you see it like an opportunity to like, yeah, like, how did you work through that difference with Chris in terms of, you know, was it more of like a mistake and maybe you needed to like set new expectations of what you want in a relationship?

I definitely had to set my boundaries. and what I expect from relationship. Because we didn't get to spend as much time as all the other couples. We kind of were a last couple. So we probably only got to spend maybe like six hours, you know. You're talking like prior to the... Prior to the... So like our hike, we went.

Our dates, we did hiking and things like that. So this is our first time together being in it. And so, yes, maybe he didn't want to ruffle any feathers. He didn't know how I would react. But it's like he didn't give me that chance to even react. Because it's like at the end of the day, it's okay. Like we weren't even a couple. So, like, of course, our whole goal here.

on the show is to find, you know, to talk to everybody, do what you got to do, you know. So for me, it's like he didn't even give me the benefit of the doubt. Right. But I do feel like when y'all had that conversation once you finally did, it was a very quick, like, nipped in the bud. Yeah, done. Done. It didn't, for me, it didn't linger on. We, we squash it. Because once we talk about it, forgive and forget, and then we're moving past it. Totally. Like, I don't let things linger. It's not that serious. Right. Vanessa, did, was the comment Logan made about visual age that's yeah I didn't know how to take that honestly because maybe people just lie and gas me up and tell me that they think I look younger than my age so when he

just put it out there like that I'm I was kind of speechless actually did you ever apologize oh immediately I think after he said it like he he knew it's like when you're when your puppy bites you and they're like oh I shouldn't have done like oh you know That was not good. A big part of your storyline with you and Logan was the lack of intimacy early on, which is just kind of a fascinating conversation between men and women and how that conversation goes when. Also very relatable conversation. Yeah. Like when the women are feeling like maybe they're not getting what they need in the bedroom versus when a man might feel that.

I'm just curious, like, how can you just walk us through? what was going on. Yeah, how did you want to go about communicating that? So it was interesting for me because, you know, you think like you're with a young guy and everyone's like, oh, they have so much stamina and they're so, they're so virile and it's just going to be like this, I was expecting fireworks on the 4th of July and I was getting cold sandwiches on Memorial Day. There was just like nothing happening. And then I started to question it like maybe he isn't attracted to me, you know? So I did have the conversations with him and he's like devoutly religious, which I didn't really know that going into it. And he's, you know, this was something he was

concerned about how he would look and his religion and that sort of thing. Do you feel like having the conversation with Teresa and kind of finding out like, oh, maybe everyone else is having sex? Did that kind of get in your head a little bit of like, why am I the only one out that's not? Yeah, I mean, having that conversation, it kind of put things in perspective to me because I felt like, yeah, they're doing that. But then I felt also that like Logan was trying to go for something deeper, you know, that he wasn't just like, hey, this is just going to be like a cheap fling while I'm in Vancouver, you know? Like I think he was being a little bit more intentional and more thoughtful. So after that conversation, it actually made me think better of. No, totally. I mean, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, his answer was very respectful. And I appreciated that answer a lot.

Then I think maybe what I would have expected him to say. It was a nice surprise to hear that from him. And I guess how were you able to get out of your head and believe him versus, you know, as they say, the comparisons to the thief of joy and just be like, oh, is that a line? Are you making that up? Or is this coming from? Well, I think after a while, like the tension build up. and he couldn't hold out. He's so religious.

He waited three days. He took his cross necklace off, and I knew what time it was. Oh, I love it and great. Leah, with you and Chris, it was a fascinating conversation about, I guess quality time was really what that disconnect seemed to be about with you too.

Chris kind of described, he's, you know, it's like, I like her, I like somebody's time with her, but like all day, you know, and you obviously, at least that's what it seemed like quality time is, is important in terms of your love languages. And you really wanted to share those, this, you know, very limited time overall for you guys to get to know each other. Right. But yeah, could you just speak, on that a little bit more from your point of view on that disconnect that you had, we got see with you and Chris. Yeah.

Okay. So, like, so if in Whistler, me and Chris probably went on like three dates. So he probably maybe spent like a couple of hours each time. And then we go to Vancouver and we have our first brunch date. And we have a great time. We have a great time of brunch. And then we get back home. And I'm like, all right, let's keep the party going.

You know what I mean? I'm like, all right. This is great. And then he was like, I'm going to take a shower and go to the gym or take a nap. And I was like, that's it? Yeah. I think it was nap shower gym. Yeah.

And I was like, we just like, you know, we got turned out. we're like this and I was like that's it and that was it and so then for me I was just left to sit on the couch with no TV no nothing and I'm like all right this is what I signed up for because it's so different when you think yeah there's no TV you have no phone you have like nothing else I had a book I had a book you guys and I was like that is important yeah that's like I literally was like this is it and then for me I'm like we just had such a great time I thought we were going to just talk and just, for me, quality time isn't with a camera in our face 20. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's off the camera so you can get to really know somebody. So for me, it's like,

I didn't get to really see Chris unless we had that camera. Does that make sense? So for me, I'm like, okay, well, we filmed like, well, let's actually just get to hang out now and be us and just relax and kick it. And he was like, going to sleep. How long did he have for? I couldn't tell you, because I would just, I probably went to the job. Well, I think I read my book, and then I left. There's just no point. Like, what's the point? When we caught up with all of y'all at dinner, after you had met family and friends, you had some opinions on Teresa not telling her kids John's age.

Right. I mean, I think everyone was thinking those opinions because I saw everyone's faces around the table. You don't feel like you were alone in that? No, absolutely not. Was I alone, Vanessa? No, you were not alone. Yeah. Yeah.

No, because I looked around and I was like, is it? Am I the only one that really thinks? Because the whole goal of this purpose of the show is to not care. Like, we really date, we date whoever we want to date. We're excited about their ages. It doesn't matter. No one looks their age anyways. It's perfect.

And then for her, I just feel like she just got, what is it like, a sense of like, there's like an entitlement where she gets treated like. She didn't get required all that. I had a sign holding up like age, age, age, age, you know. And it's just weird that people just had different expectations for different people. And so, but I get to realize I didn't know Teresa. I didn't know her like that. So I didn't know her.

She had kids. I know she had kids. I know how many. I didn't know her kids were older than John. So I had that's why I had a conversation. I asked, I was like, oh, well, how old are your children? And then she was like, oh. And so that's why I was like, ah, one's 29.

I get it now. So I was like, I understand. I get what you're saying because I didn't know. Okay. So once you got a little bit more content. text you kind of understood where she was coming. Yeah, I mean, just to play devil's advocate, I totally get where you're coming from. And certainly in reality, the reality TV world, it's hard not to compare and getting your head.

But as I'm sure like both you ladies acknowledge that, you know, just the world, as I think Teresa was trying to point out, like, is just very judgmental when it comes to, especially older women and younger men and I think just any couple in an age difference I think we're just so used to like people leading with negativity

you know it's like the jokes or the assumptions like it always tends to be negative so I think for anyone in a relationship they're really excited about and see the potential it at least makes sense why their initial instinct is protect

that and keep kind of those outside voices. That was this kind of my read on it at the time with Trisa. But I would see them out in public. Like as in, and like he was happy to be out with her and she's older. You know what I'm saying? So the least she can do is like, all right, you know what? I'm going to tell my children at his real age because he's, he's proud of me. They're walking hand in hand like in this. Oh, I totally get it from Johns. But I think it was cute to me. Like, I'm a side, it's great. Do you feel the, that kind of stigma that like older women with younger men is not normalized. It's weird. It's like people judge it more than they judge

older men with younger women. They're going to judge regardless. But I'm like, well, if you're happy, you're happy. It's like that's your job to not care about what everyone else is saying about you. Sure. Regardless. You know what I'm saying? Like if I found like a young guy, I'm like, as long as I'm happy, all my people are going to be happy for me. You know what I'm saying? And like, that, yeah, so. But if everyone's different, do you feel that that kind of like stigma? I definitely think there's a stigma to it and people like to make jokes. People like to be funny and like to make jokes about it. And the good thing is they don't care. I don't care what they say. It's my life and I'm going to do it. And you have to be right. Yeah. I think that's, yeah, I think obviously that's the goal,

right? And for all of us to get there, I think just sometimes when I first started dating, I wasn't like that day one. I wasn't like, I don't go fuck with anyone's days. You know, like, it's hard not to get in your head. Sometimes the feedback we received, there's some truth in Right. There's like, well, maybe I should consider that or maybe I'm just like caught up in a world wind. So, you know, I think it's it's great to get to a point where you don't care what other people think. And I think realistically, we kind of all have to go at our own pace and process, you know, some of our fears and insecurities we have with us taking kind of these bigger leaps in relationships. That makes sense. Yeah. But I do appreciate the great TV. But we, well, look, we've grown adult women. Okay, we know what we want. Look, I'm not gonna lie.

If she would have said something else, I might have. I literally, I was like, am I going to be Teresa? I was like, it's so funny. Nick was like smiling in that scene. He's like, this is great. I really appreciated you in that moment. I remember after that there was a little bit of awkward silence where then I came in and clarified that there were no rules.

And you could kind of take that and do with it what you wanted to. And you were kind of like, yeah. Yeah, I was side eyeing. I was sight eyeing you so hard. I was like, girl, you knew there were rules. Okay? We all know there's rules. And I was like, but she didn't have to play by the rules.

But I'm going to let it go. You saw me, woo saw me, who saw? You did. You did. So I was like, when did she flip? But okay. I did. I did because I went.

Who side is she on? We're on no one side. But look, and I was like, you know what, Leah, we're going to drop it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I do think that it was great. I do think that it was a missed opportunity. You know, like none of us wanted to do that.

No one wanted us to stay. I would not have told Chris' mom. Let me think I'm 30. But it was a missed opportunity. Like, she could have had that moment. Well, you know, listen, on the other side, you're right. You know, I think if her children, if her children's opinions are going to matter, which I assume they would. They were going to matter eventually.

It would make sense for the, you know. Rip that bandaid off now. Well, I mean, you need to know. Otherwise, you know, otherwise, you know, otherwise if they will play a role in your decision, then they need to probably know as soon as possible. So it's an interesting conversation to have. You're welcome. Vanessa, we've, it'll be interesting to watch your relationship with Logan unfold, but you guys, fight like cats and dogs. Yes. So I was famous for, I was single for a while and before going into this experiment. And I would always just go on like three dates with someone and be

done. Like my first date, okay it was good the second date I was like and third date I was like okay that's it so I really kind of had to push myself to put the work in and I think he was kind of the same way like he was just doing the situation ship and I was just going on dates

and I think like both of us like I don't know we just have this connection that makes us want to put the work in and so we wanted to take the risk we wanted to put the work in and we fight with each other but we fight for each other I said this was love because I had been engaging

a couple times before I met my wife. But we learned that you had four engagements prior to coming on age of attraction. Yes. Can you give us a little background on your relationship history and? Yes, sure. Yeah, so I've been engaged four times, one for each decade. Awesome. So, yeah.

So for me. Do you still have all rings? Honestly, I will say that some of the rings I gave back, because I feel like it's good karma. I feel like if you give the ring away, the universe will give it back to you. So that's my thing. And truly, that's the true. And the ones that you kept?

Yeah. Wait, well, no, I don't think I kept one. I had one that I got made into a little necklace so I could give it to my daughter because it was from her dad. So I put the diamond into a little thing. Yeah. So that was the only one that I kept.

But the rest I gave back so I could get a bigger one in return. That sounds. And what did you learn? about yourself along that relationship journey of yours? Through the engagement journey? Yeah, just, you know. Yeah.

So I learned a lot about myself. And for me, I was feeling, you know, I like that concept of being engaged because you're actually in a commitment. And it's not a situation. You know that you're moving towards something. So when you're moving towards something, you're going to start putting the puzzle pieces together and building the foundation. And so then if it doesn't work out and then you realize like, hey, are you,

dreams don't align, then it's time to move on. Versus like if you're just in this like relationship and you're just kind of dragging it along and you're not really together, you're not really, you know, it's kind of sick, this whole situation ship that's going on in the world. Like people aren't committing anymore. So for me, I was like, I would give 110% of myself. And then if it didn't work out, I could walk away knowing I gave everything I had to give. No regrets. Right. Well, we are excited to see the rest of you ladies. journey as it unfolds. See what happens at the finale. See where you are after that. But it's been a fun ride so far. Thanks for being a part of this new journey and this new show.

And we were just, it was great. We really enjoyed the whole cast. And we've said this many times already for this show. But it was just a very likable cast, you ladies included. And it was just, it was great to be a part of the show that showed like a lot of really interesting relationship. conversations with a bunch of people that like we can root for and see the good at and you all bring interesting perspectives and you know it just is someone who's like you had had a lot of meaningful relationships prior to meeting my wife like it I think sometimes we feel like we've tried and failed a few times early in life that we come into new relationships as damaged goods and I just like to think it's more like we we have an opportunity to learn and be better so thank you both for being a part this journey with us and it was just a pleasure to have you on. Thank you for having you. It was my pleasure to you guys. So fun.