The Viall Files - E111 Penn Jillette on Breaking Up in Hawaii

Episode Date: April 1, 2020

Today, Penn Jillette of Penn and Teller joins us. But first, we discuss that photo of Pilot Pete and Kelley! What does Nick think of them hanging out? Then, Penn tells us about why he always questions social norms, Nick and Penn discuss how to avoid an “us vs. them" mentality, and Penn shares why he prefers to break up on vacation. Thanks for sticking with us during this crazy time. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode! (Note: this was recorded in studio three weeks ago.) THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: GRUBHUB: https://www.grubhub.com CODE: VIALL  BEST FIENDS: https://download.bestfiends.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody happy wednesday hope you're staying inside being safe i'm nick joined by my producer rochelle hello uh and finally we are getting to the episode of Penn Jillette that we promised you for so long. It was one of those funny things where the end of The Bachelor and coronavirus, certain guests became available that were time sensitive. My conversation with Penn, like I said last week, is timeless in a sense that Penn's been around for a while and he's just such a fascinating person. We talk about so many different things. And yeah, I think you'll just enjoy hearing his perspective on life

and the stories he tells. Wouldn't you say, Rochelle? Yeah, he has a very strong opinion on religion. Religion, yeah. And atheism? Yeah, he has a very strong opinion on religion. Religion, yeah. And atheism. Yeah, you may not agree. I mean, I didn't even know what I thought, but it was just fascinating to hear his point of view.

And that's the thing. On this show, and I do at least, I encourage all different points of view, just so I think the world's a better place when we are open to listening to ideas. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it. Doesn't mean you have to support it, but it gets you thinking.

And when we think, usually people become better for it. So anyways, anything going on with you? Yeah, so go into it with an open mind. Yeah, but it's certainly fascinating. He's got some great stories and I think you guys will enjoy it. But my god we got to talk about peter because it doesn't feel real it doesn't feel like it's actually happening the what the him being spotted with kelly

spotted he was carrying her over his helicopter during a pandemic i gotta say a lot of weird things about that photo uh from the fact that they are hanging out um do you think she was hanging out with him when you i truly i truly don't know i mean honestly like uh i met kelly at chris harrison's event literally like right before you know know, social distancing happened. Yeah. And I posted that picture with Kelly, which like, you know, Kelly and I like,

you know, we're just like, hey, let's do this picture because, you know, a lot of people kind of suggested that, you know, Nick and Kelly kind of.

They shipped you guys. It was all in good fun. And so like I, you know i texted kelly like hey this is the caption i'm gonna go with etc etc and um she made some comments where it was almost like like wait are you hanging out with peter like what did she say she she didn't say anything she was kind of being coy and i couldn't really i couldn't really tell okay i'm i'm gonna guess that it that it all the all the speculation about like they've been hanging out this whole time i still don't buy that really you think the maddie thing was real yeah i again like i don't know peter that well but and clearly like this uh these past revelations

is that an appropriate term yeah um like listen peter's his own man i i i don't quite understand the logic there um nothing against kelly it's just like what what then why didn't you why did you like i don't get it. You sent her home before hometowns. Now you're hanging out with her. What about? I don't understand. It doesn't make.

That part doesn't make sense. Also, why is he flying there? Well, he's a pilot. Yeah, but aren't we supposed to stay inside? Well, yeah. I mean, you're allowed to go walk, right? Like, yes, the photographs are, it's a bad look. You know, photographs can be taken out of context. I mean, if Peter and Kelly are hanging out together and social distancing together, then who, like, no one's having a prom with Tyler and Hannah Ann doing all the things they're doing inside. Well, yeah. died well right i'm just i mean i you people can have their i'm just simply saying like they're not the only ones touching right the fact that they're outside on a walk like people need to get outside

and walk and still practice social distancing it's still out of context a bad look i get what you're saying but it's just bizarre um i just don't get the like the but i do i do my point is the i do believe that peter is still an honest and genuine guy. I think he's just a very, from what I've learned from him and talking with people who really know him, he's very in the moment. He's one of those, a lot like Caitlyn was, where it's just like, he leads with his heart. And sometimes I lead with my brain now. He's just like, if he's feeling it, he's going for it. and so it's like fuck it i love i miss you know kelly it's oh yeah my i don't think uh i i don't believe that the the peter and madison was fake what don't you think

it's kind of insulting though to hannah ann and madison i uh uh well we're recording this uh early but uh uh yeah I haven't talked to Hannah and I am curious but I get a sense that if I'm Hannah Ann like I think she might be pissed I would be I mean Madison like I don't I don't fucking know right um but Hannah Ann was engaged to Peter right like we talked about on the podcast like she can't say i've never been engaged before like her next boyfriend and it doesn't matter like she's fine i don't think it's like a scarlet letter i don't i don't i don't see it that way for myself but you know i think there's a lot of people who just like to be engaged once and get married to that person right and if i'm hannah ann it it cheapens it a little

bit more for sure 100 it does does this make peter a fuck boy it gives him the perception that he is yeah i i don't i i i don't i'm a picture and him hanging out with someone does not make him a fuckboy. It does not. Just because someone captures a picture with you, he's allowed to hang out with Kelly. He's a single guy. That does not make him a fuckboy. But it's not a good look. It's not.

Just like, couldn't you pick a girl that wasn't on? Well, that's what i don't get i don't get like again nothing against kelly i met her she seems nice like whatever but like if you're just bored that's what i'm saying like well it's like there's two scenarios he's either like in love with her like he's got it like if i'm the only reason he should be hanging out with kelly is if he had this epiphany and he's like oh my god i'm the only reason he should be hanging out with kelly is if he had this epiphany and he's like oh my god i'm in totally in love with kelly she's my person and i gotta make this work and you know what i don't i still understand it but good for you go for it

go nuts have some babies fall in love if he's just like well she's a cool chick and and we had fun then yeah i don't get that. What's the upside? There's plenty of nice, good-looking girls you can hang out with. But if him and Kelly somehow decided that they want to give this a shot, then good for them. But it's just, I don't, I doubt it's longevity.

I don't get it. It just, it's, and like, it does certainly put a cherry on top to the season. Oh my God, yeah. In terms of like, you know, I've been very defensive of Peter and I still like him very much. But I mean, it certainly shows that maybe he wasn't quite ready to be the bachelor you know I mean yeah

you know he's a little too in the moment but certainly makes for good commentary man we're all just getting entertained from our living rooms yeah well what are you going to do?

Well, anyways, there's your bachelor goss for the week. Yeah. How about we get to Penn? And then next week, we got Jason, Jason Tardik of the Caitlin and Jason duo. We have a really great... I have a lot of fun talking with Jason. We talk about him and Caitlin's relationship and how we met. We talk about a lot of things. So make sure you check that out next week. But anyways, I really hope you enjoyed this episode. I know I enjoyed the conversation with Penn. He is a legend, the longest-running act in Vegas, a magician. He's an author, an actor, a writer.

He does it all. Fascinating man. So thanks for listening, and stay safe. We love you all. Take care. Well, you guys, you know we love our Grubhub, and we are in some strange times. And to get through these times,

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stuck inside. I'm looking for things to do. I've really been doing very well on Best Fiends. I've really been doing very well on Best Fiends. I'm at level 510, baby. Yeah, I'm not quite there. I think I'm at like 420-ish, 430. I don't know. Don't you love the leprechaun themes they have right now? Very, very nice, yes.

They always have a new theme. Well, it's right around St. Patrick's Day time period. Well, I love Moose. He's just a neat little guy. Here's a picture of him. He looks like a moose and like a beetle all at the same time, which I like that. My favorite slug is Howie. I'll show you guys Howie.

This is Howie. So cute. Yeah, Moose is a little bit more of an enforcer. Best Fiends has thousands of levels already with new levels, events, and characters added every month. It's hours of fun right at your fingertips, and you can even play offline. With over 100 million downloads and tons of five-star reviews,

Best Fiends is a must-play. Download Best Fiends free on Apple App Store and Google Play. That's friends without the R. Best Fiends. Penn Apple App Store and Google Play. That's friends without the R. Best Fiends. Penn Jillette, thanks for coming. Thanks for having me on your big program here. I'm really excited. I've always been a big fan of you.

Thank you. I'm trying not to be intimidated. There's no reason to be intimidated. I have no weapons. That's good. I've always been a fan of you ever since i watched penn and teller bullshit i knew obviously of you and you know you've been around forever uh killing in vegas but when i first watched penn teller's bullshit uh it was probably the first time i was in my

early 20s at the time and it was like probably the first it was the show that really started making me think um from alternative points of view um and i grew up in a very traditional catholic household i have 10 siblings 10 yeah what position are you i'm number two i'm the second oldest yeah so they we're not out in the area where psychologists don't even bother like if you were ninth of a tenth family say what is a ninth child like we don't know there. Like if you were ninth of a tenth family, they'd say, what is a ninth child like? We don't know. There's like three of them. There's something, probably something there.

So yeah, I grew up in a very structured and very- In where? Wisconsin. So Midwest. America's dairy brains. Yeah. And I think I've always had it in my personality to play devil's advocate,

to ask questions. But when you grow up in a very kind of structured environment. What did your parents do? My mom stayed home and made kids and raised us. And my dad worked for, he still does, works for a printing company, very blue collar. And, you know, it was, you know, my parents have become more progressive and liberal over the years was you know my parents have become more uh progressive and liberal over the years you know through their children ironically but back then it was there's a certain way of doing things and when i started watching your show um you the show was basically

about um you know challenging social norms the catholic League, the Catholic League, which of course, despite its name, has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. The Catholic League actually ranted and raved against bullshit.

They were very, very angry at bullshit. I would imagine, yeah. Because we did, we did a show on Mother Teresa. Oh, did you? We did a show.

My favorite line written for all of bullshit was uh not written by me uh my favorite lines are never written by me uh and it was written by one of our new writers who uh when i read the voice over i just couldn't do it without laughing. It was, here's the Pope. He's the one who put the athole in Catholicism. It's pretty good. So Catholics weren't thrilled. Yeah, I can imagine. And it was interesting because it started, when did you guys start doing bullshit?

Geez. Well, here's the very odd thing about bullshit. We pitched it the week after 9-11. And I mean by 9-11, 9-11, 2001. 2001, yeah. It was a strange pitch, a very strange pitch because this horrible attack, tragedy happened. And the president of the United States said,

go on with your jobs. That's what you need to do. And I believed very strongly and still do that the way we should have reacted to 9-11 was to do nothing and to go for more freedom and not for less and make sure that terrorism didn't work. I actually thought that everybody in the United States of America should celebrate non-terrorist positions. So I thought that homosexuality should go way up, and I thought we should all do that. As a matter of fact, my move after 9-11 was to put fishnets on, go into drag, and do a Rocky Horror Show on Broadway, which we weren't considering before that. But I said, if they are going, kind of like, kind of backwards Phelps in the Westboro Baptist Church.

You know, he says, you know, God is punishing us because God hates homosexuals. And I was saying, God hates homosexuals. We better all be getting homosexual wicked fast. Because now we found out that what a faith-based initiative can really do, which is crash planes into it. So a week after we had all these, there we are. You can see me in fishnets. See that? That's awesome. That's very attractive.

Killing it. Yeah. And that was my answer to Muslim extremists. That's how you fight terrorism. Yeah. I really do believe that. I really do believe. But anyway, so, um, we had all these pitches set up after 9-11, which was, um, uh, you know, you were young enough. There was a very different vibe for you. I was in college when it happened.

Yeah. Yeah. But to be, uh, someone working, uh, and working in show in show business, you didn't really know what you were supposed to do. You know, we didn't really know what was respectful. We obviously canceled our shows, but you can't cancel your shows forever. And so we actually came back, you know, Broadway was doing very badly. So we went into Rocky Horror and just did that to bring whatever our names would bring in.

I mean, for the two weeks we were in it, it sold out and it hadn't been doing well before that. So good. But we also pitched Bullshit, which is really strange because to almost all the pitches going in and saying we want to do a very skeptical show, the media was reporting that after 9-11 people were returning to religion in the United States. And they were doing all these kind of feel-good pieces of people getting together and praying. And, you know, President was speaking about how, you know, Bush was speaking about how religion was a cause for peace and love, and we had to,

Muslims believed in love, and Christians believed in love. We should all have faith together. Well, in reality, now that we look back at the actual numbers, there was a huge jump in people admitting atheism during that time. Many, many people said, oh, this is what religion does? Okay, we're out. I don't think that any atheists were created from 9-11, but I believe a great deal of people who had been slightly closeted just said, fuck it, we have to tell the truth now.

For me, I decided that even though I was a very outspoken and aggressive atheist, I had decided that I had to ramp it up another level. So we went and pitched this show. And my pitch of bullshit was the nuts who believe in ESP and crystal healing and saints and all these crazy fuckers are really interesting. They're fascinating, wonderful people because they're nuts. And the side that's correct, the scientists, tend to lack passion. They tend to be measured. They tend to be a little less interesting because they're so sane. I said, what I will give you is I will give you the same level of nut that the crazy people have,

but I will do it on the side of right. Sure. That's interesting. I said, if you're talking about the temperature, you know, if the temperature of a nut is right below boiling and the temperature of a scientist is right about boiling and the temperature of a scientist is right about 70 degrees,

I'm going to give you a boiling scientist. And that's what I was trying to do. And then because we sold it to Showtime, we pitched it many places, I then added, and we'll give you lots of topless women in Swing and Dance. I went back and watched it again.

I was like, oh yeah, I remember this. This is great. Thank you for that. I was like, oh, yeah, I remember this. This is great. Thank you for that. I'll also tell you, it is amazing. We had never had, you know, because we're Penn and Teller. We're as really asexual an act as you could possibly have. You can't watch the Penn and Teller show in Vegas. And if you were an alien species, you would have no hint that there were different identifications of genders or that people reproduced sexually.

No way to get that information. I have used non-gender, non-binary pronouns in the show for everybody forever. Oh, that's awesome. I have never done, I believe, I think I can say this, in 45 years, I have never done a sexual joke with a person I bring up on stage. If you come up with blue hair or you come up dressed very provocatively, I know that I can't get a surprise laugh from you on commenting on that because you know it. People with blue mohawks know they have blue mohawks. People of either gender wearing very short miniskirts know they're wearing very short miniskirts.

You can't surprise, wow, you have large breasts. Yes, I know. I actually bought a bra last week and I was able to see the size on it. I have a mirror. I walk by, not in my home because we're sitting Shiva, but I walk by a mirror.

So there's nothing sexual there. But when we did bullshit because we were doing obscenity, we decided that we would throw in completely gratuitous sex. And I thought that would be fun. You know, I thought bringing in people to be nude on this, which I want to also add, Teller and I were both nude. We both appeared nude because I believe if you have not performed naked, you are not in show business. Yes.

I believe that anybody that balks even for a moment at taking their clothes off in a performance shouldn't be in show business. It's like saying, you know, I'm a plumber, but I can't stand to get my hands wet. Okay, you picked the wrong job. That's all. You picked the wrong job. You're going to be a sand sculpture now. Do something else.

And I would write in things with not the purest of heart. I would write in, you know, Penn is doing the monologue and around him are five naked people, you know, they're standing all around him. And I would say, this would be great because I'll be on the set with five naked people. And then I would have five people in robes and then I would look up, you know, I would write these monologues for myself that were pages and pages of hard words that went by really fast and had to be on teleprompter. And the five people would come up, they'd take their robes off.

They'd say action. I'd read the prompter perfectly. They'd say cut. They put their robes on. I wouldn't even see one swing and dig. Oh, what a bummer. Just focused.

Cause I'm working. There's no payoff. I would also write like Penn does this monologue while getting a massage and being fed caviar. So they would say, okay. They just let you do whatever you want. They get the caviar. Well, I was writing it and I was producing it. So I'd get the caviar and there'd be someone there to feed me the caviar.

And then I would try one take and they put the caviar in my mouth and I'd go. So they'd say, just give him a very small amount of caviar so he can read the prompter. And they would go like, boom, one spoon, boom, off the set. Never even see the person feeding me caviar. So it's the only thing I learned about writing for yourself is don't write in running. Don't write that the lead character runs a lot. Just don't do that. You get just really tired.

Well, I watched one of your episodes last night. You were on a treadmill. You were panting. Don't write in running. Just leave running out of it. Well, everyone, we know we're spending a lot of time inside. And when we do that, we want to make sure our places aren't too stinky. I mean, wouldn't you say, Rochelle?

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We have you covered. So check us out and be safe and be well. Have you always been that way in terms of like going or just questioning things and social norms? Because again, what I loved about the show is at a young age for me, it was, it was you you kind of made it okay for me to ask questions that i was told to do a certain thing or i think in a certain way um and then when you know when you presented on bullshit you did a great job of articulating points of view or bringing on the like i love

one of my favorite parts about the show is you always find some kind of nutty person who believes i think uh yes the anger management episode the guy who played the piano and was i forgot his name but he was playing the piano and that was somehow going to make people in less angry uh the venting person yeah um but have you always been that way because for me that really it really allowed me to start asking certain questions and allowed me, I felt like for me, I was being less of a sheep, so to speak. Well, I am also from a conservative family. You know, Church of the Covered Dish Supper, Congregationalist, Western Massachusetts. Very puritanical.

I've never had a sip of alcohol in my life or any recreational drug. My family didn't seem to know alcohol existed. Generations of no alcohol. And, you know, my parents never talked to me about drugs because drugs did not exist. It was not part of anything we thought about. You know, I would talk when I was on Saturday Night Live, you know, they would talk about me avoiding the temptation of drugs and how that takes so much time. And I would just go, to do nothing, you know, not climbing Everest doesn't take any time at all.

You know, not drinking takes no time. It's zero time in not drinking. So I was brought up in the church, which I believed in completely. And my parents were older. My mom was 45 when I was born. So I was raised almost by what would be generationally grandparents, especially in that time when I was born, 55. And then I went to youth group, and I had a wonderful pastor at our church, and I was searching, as anybody who's 15 or 16 should be. I would also say as anybody who's 65 should be searching. And I read the Bible, and I came in with a lot of questions. And finally, and it's very hard to state this in a way that doesn't sound unpleasant, but it was very, very pleasant. The minister, we had the youth group in discussion, and the minister called up my mom and dad and said, A pen is in the youth group, and he is doing a better job at selling atheism to the other members of the youth group than I am doing selling Christianity. Oh, no. And we've asked him to be vocal in the discussions

and asked him to read the Bible, and he's done all of that, and he's asking me questions that are hard to answer, and I think it would be better for everybody if he didn't show up. Oh, what? Oh, my gosh. And the minister.

How did your parents react to that? They were like, well, okay. My mother. At the time, did you realize you were trying to sell atheism or did you? No, no. You were just asking questions. A lot of questions. You were trying to understand.

A lot, a lot of questions. You know, I first was bothered by the Bible's essential disrespect for the family, especially the New Testament. How so? Well, you know, Jesus does say explicitly, you need to leave your family and follow me. Many, many times. There's disrespect for friends and family and love. And I'm from, you'll hear many, many, especially people in comedy talk about with a great deal of pride, they're dysfunctional families. And that's not true for me. I had unconditional complete support.

My dad never got the memo that he was supposed to give me conditional love. It was unconditional love. And my parents were older when I was born and had all their problems out of the way. I mean, did not raise their voices in the home. Were kind and—but that doesn't mean we didn't argue. Sure. But kind and sweet and supportive, and so was the minister. And I really do believe if you want to drive someone to atheists, treat them wonderfully. Take away their fear. Make them feel loved.

And I tell people when they're talking about how do I get so-and-so more interested in atheism, I just say, give them the Bible and love them. The rest will take care of itself. Have them read the Bible and contrast it with how you're treating them and they will come screaming out going, there's no God. And my dad remained Christian until the day he died. And my mom became atheist in her 80s, which is not as uncommon as they'd like you to believe. Really?

Many older people. Usually people think that you get closer as they'd like you to believe. Really? Many older people. Usually, people think that you get closer to death, you turn to God. Yeah, although numbers don't bear that out. Many people, it's not usually a big movement, but many people last 10 years of their life will start abandoning religion. It's not uncommon. But my mother, the church, which they had been, my parents were certainly not wealthy. My dad was a jail guard.

But they tithed and gave a lot of money to the church. My dad was the choir director. My mom played piano. My sister did the grounds and all this stuff. And there was a pastor who was a lesbian. Oh. And this was when I was an adult. So I was, you know, I was 40, 35 or 40.

So my parents were in their hitting 80. And the old men of the church had decided she was going to vote for the church to be inclusive for what would at that time be called gay and lesbian. And there was not the,BT. And they, my mother said, what business is that of yours if, you know, we should be, affirm everybody? And they said, well, the minister's a lesbian. We don't want her minister. And my mom said, phooey on your Bible and quit the church at the age of 83 in support of a lesbian minister. Good for her. And I said to my mom, you know, Pastor Shirley is going to come to the house and she's going to say,

you know, just because this thing was done not right does not mean you should abandon your religion. There's still a lot of good for you. She's going to do that, mom. And sure enough, Pastor Shirley showed up two weeks later and said, really good you did that. It's about time you lost your religion. So there you go. So my mom died an atheist. My sister died an atheist. My dad stayed steadfastly Christian. And one thing I learned, I pitched bullshit. I'm embarrassed and ashamed of this.

But I pitched bullshit in a cynical way. I do not like cynicism. I do not like satire. I do not like satire. I do not like sarcasm. Oh, really? Do not. Really don't. Okay, tell your story, then I'm going to get curious about that because I'm often sarcastic and cynical.

Oh, I do not like cynicism. I mean, Bill Maher and I have been arguing about that now for 35 years. But I did do this thing that was cynical and makes my skin crawl to think back on it. I told Showtime when we pitched Bullshit, I said, you know, a lot of people won't like it. They'll really hate the show, but they'll still watch it. And that means they'll send letters, and that'll be really good, and you can make money off this, which was not something I would say now. But what surprised me, and so I expected to do this. There's this thing that atheists do that I find fingernails on chalkboard. Even good friends of mine, Richard Dawkins is a good buddy of mine,

and Lawrence Krauss has done it, another good friend of mine, and even Sam Harris. They will read their hate mail. You know, this is who, this is what a Christian wrote to me. They wrote me this hate mail. And it's disingenuous because the real crazy hate mail, like the people that have threatened my life and police and stuff, these are not Christians. These are mentally ill people who happen to identify as Christian. Big difference. Big difference. And we do this politically all the time too.

You know, so-and-so is a Trump supporter and he went and shot up these people. Well, he's not a Trump supporter. He's a person that shoots up people. And then he happens- Decided to also say he voted for Trump. Yeah. And we have to be very careful to also say he voted for Trump. Yeah. And we have to be very careful because whoever we attack for doing that is going to be on your side eventually. There's going to be an atheist shooter. There's going to be every kind of shooter because the shooter is the important part. It's not what they had for breakfast. And, boy, did I get shut the fuck up the first season of Bullshit, because our letters were predominantly from Christians.

And the letters read a variation of this. Dear Penn and Teller, I watched Bullshit. I love your passion. I love how hard you're thinking about this you're really funny you do a good job on the show i believe in jesus i'm a follower of god i'm praying for you i hope you do well but you're doing a great show with love boom yeah i like makes me want to cry i love that right that's what most the fucking letters were you know and those were the ones that i would read i would read those aloud and go okay yes richard dawkins we both

had police protection because crazies wanted to kill us but how many of these are you're getting because the fact is richard you're getting a lot of fucking these yeah you know and it was just beautiful it's wild because like you know i'm listening you talk and so very interesting and a lot of our listeners on the show are on both sides and a lot of religious people and and just in the world that we have right now it's that's the thing it's just like people now more than ever i think people are shutting off their brains to what they're afraid to like see the other side they're afraid to question if you don't agree with it because you can be like if you are a Christian, yeah, you can just disagree and ask questions.

I try very hard to not even, I'm contradicting myself. I try to use the pronoun they to fight gender stuff. I try to never use the pronoun they when it's them and us. I don't want to ever use it that way. I've tried to formulate sentences that are so hard to say, but so good for you. So good for your heart. I try to say not those people who voted for Trump, but I try to say those of us who voted for Trump. And when you say that, everybody bristles around you, but the people who voted for Trump are us. And by us, my latest thing is I try to see the world. You have two choices.

You can either say you're one of seven billion or you can say you're an individual. Anything between there, I don't want to hear. I don't want to hear there's Christians and atheists. I don't want to hear fucking sports fans. I don't want to hear there's Americans and everybody else. You've got the whole world, or you've got you individually, and nothing in between. That's really fascinating.

So when you say people on both sides, I want to just negate that and say no you got people I like that I mean you even mentioned that went down your episode about the death penalty and at the end we killed I forgot his name but so-and-so where it's you know you when you say it that way it really makes you think you know we are part of the collective and that was the thing about Bullshit. Bullshit was an incredibly Pollyanna show. Every show ended up with this incredibly American, hippie, peace and naked people so people wouldn't say, Jesus Christ, what is this fucking Mr. Rogers? All we were trying to do. Because essentially, I believe everything Mr. Rogers says. That's essentially my point of view about love. But I want to conceal

that, which is why I throw in the word cocksucker uh well that's great i really appreciate sharing those stories i mean it's it's one of my it was always one of my favorite shows and not to give you too much credit but really yeah but the naked people and it really it just really made me started thinking about the world differently um and it really just it i it it made me feel safe to ask questions that sometimes we don't we aren't we don't always feel safe to ask especially in our circles and also change your mind you know our people um because bullshit has remained on it's still on you can still watch it people don't realize it's been off the air for 10 years. So people will write in to Twitter and say, how could you say this with all the information out there?

And I always try to remind them that we are unstuck in time. It's not even in HD. I went back and watched it. It was like it's still in the... Yeah, yeah. It's not anything. But so yes, when they say, what have you changed your mind on? I go, well, everything.

Sure. 10 years. That's a lot. Everything changes. Yeah. So you mentioned cynicism, you're not a fan of. What do you mean by that? I'm curious, because I don't even know if I even understand what you're saying.

Skepticism and cynicism are two different things. Skepticism is wanting as much evidence as you can get for a point of view. And cynicism is thinking that everybody's motives are questionable. Bill Maher proudly says he's a cynic. I believe that cynicism is the lazy, lazy way to appear cool. Because when you roll your eyes and act cynical and go, yeah, of course that's the way it goes, there is a certain kind of cool and very old-fashioned cool that comes out of that that I just find repulsive. Because if you look at the 7 billion people on the planet, we're going to round off the numbers now, 7 billion are good. People are trying to do their best. People are really, really trying. And I was homeless for

many years, hitchhiking around the country. I'm carny trash. I've been around very rough environments. And for me to look back on my life, trying to think of someone who I believe their intentions were evil, it's a very difficult thing to find. And one of the things that's separating our country so much is using the word evil instead of the word wrong. The word wrong is really useful. It's a really useful word. You and I are talking. We try to agree on the facts. We make our point. And you say, you're wrong. Good. We can go from there. You're evil. So you know you're wrong, but you're sticking with it because you're trying to, you know, when someone says, you know, well, we're Democrats because we want people to be fed and healthy and taken care of. And you go,

no shit. That's exactly what the other side wants. They just might be wrong about how they're going to accomplish it. And that's what we want to discuss. And starting with evil is what cynicism is. And starting with wrong is what skepticism is. I love that. That's great. And so you can be very contrary. Yeah. But don't question the motives.

And I think there are people, I mean, there are people at levels of mentally ill who are actually trying to do bad things. And there are people that are so beaten down and so hopeless and have lost so much that they actually will strike out and try to do damage. But those people are rare. And then when we look at them deeply, those people are also suffering terribly. Happy people don't go around throwing rocks. It doesn't happen. Do you feel like you growing up in a conservative religious household and then kind of becoming an atheist and expanding,

do you feel like that's kind of framed it because when you were just talking about that i thought of you know the world i grew up in and then coming out to la and moving to a bigger city and becoming more progressive and having more liberal thoughts where sometimes i get frustrated where i go home i hear one side kind of shouting their points of view and they think everyone out here is nuts and crazy and wrong or evil and then everyone sometimes out here you listen to people talk about the other out here they're kind of right but I'm just saying this to everyone

thinks the other person's yeah a certain way and they're and then they're so steadfast where I'm sometimes like well you know there's a little bit of truth here a sometimes like, well, you know, there's a little bit of truth here, there's a little bit of truth there. Yeah, you know, you don't want to make the mistake. There's a very sloppy mistake you can make that when you've got two extremes that the truth is in the middle.

The truth is never in the middle, you know, but that does not mean that the extreme has to go with the hate. I mean, I, when I changed from kind of a, uh, uh, Hollywood liberal to a, uh, what would you call classic liberal actually in terms of, um, econ economy, um, a, uh, a libertarian, it was a friend of mine who just sat with me for hours going, no, no, you're wrong, man. You're wrong. And just laying stuff on me. And he was not sweet. He was not solicitous. He was not manipulative. Never accused me of being evil, but said, man, you're so fucking wrong. Never accused me of being evil, but said, man, you're so fucking wrong.

And that's the way I believe that saying someone is wrong is the most respectful thing you can do. You know, it allows you to find out. Because then when you're saying they're wrong, included in that wrong is that we can agree on a reality where we can discuss and learn. And that we can agree on a reality that we can discuss and learn is all I want out of anybody. It's all I want out of me. By the way, when you prove it wrong, you'll learn a lot more than when you prove someone else wrong. Yeah, it's not that much.

I mean, I like to be right, but it's way more interesting when someone's just like, makes you go wait. Oh, yeah. Holy shit. I can't. What the fuck? David Bowie doesn't sing the end of Young Americans.

That's Luther Vandross. Goddamn. I didn't know that. That is so interesting. What do you feel about like cynicism and like romance and relationship areas? Well, you know, I have, I don't understand why everybody isn't having a lot more sex. And I don't understand why people are frightened by getting their heart broken because that's wicked fun. I totally agree.

And that's where the excitement is. And I mentioned earlier, you know, I'm very interested in people who, you know, as Bob Dylan said, to live outside the law, you must be honest. I'm fascinated, not only titillated, which I also am, but fascinated by people who take stuff to the fringe, which is why I mentioned Club Baths in San Francisco. I mean, those words mean nothing anymore to me. But I identified as straight. And I was living in San Francisco. And it was 1981. And we were doing a show there, Teller and I.

And the staff of the theater was gay, identified as gay. The verb to be in there just fucks me up so much. I don't want you to ever say, I am gay. I want you to say, you know, I had gay sex last night. I understand that. And the only question I want to know about anybody about sex is, do you want to have sex with me? That's the only question.

I don't care whether you call yourself gay or whether you call yourself straight. The only question that's my business, it's actually my business whether you want to have sex with me. Anything else has nothing to do with me. I'm not in the Venn diagram. Okay, let's talk about something else. But I was, the bartender who identified as gay said how hard it was to live in a straight world. And he said, this is really tough, you know, because you have to see, you have to see heterosexual couples making out and holding hands. And you would not be comfortable if people were, if guys were

kissing and holding hands around you. I said, well, I certainly would be. And then he said, I don't see you going to the club baths. Now, club baths, which you can't even remember or imagine now, but in the days before AIDS, I mean, before the AIDS epidemic, I mean, it was already still in the, HIV existed, but before it was an epidemic, which is, you know, mid-80s or so. baths and the club baths were a bath house that men went to and had uh predominantly anonymous uh completely hedonistic sex and you got there and you put a towel on and you went in and you know what your religious people and what your conservatives would say would be that they just went to fuck anything like animals. And kind of correct. And you would not ever consider a straight person going to Club Baths because why would you be there?

What would possibly be your motive? So he said, I don't see you going to Club Baths. And I said, when you go next, I'll go with you. So he said, I don't see you going to Club Baths. And I said, when you're going next, I'll go with you. And he said, well, I'm going Sunday, but you don't want to go there. And I said, yeah, I'll go. I said, I'm not uncomfortable with people having sex.

He goes, no, this wasn't a challenge. I said, I'll go. And he said, well, you have to be a member. I said, okay, I'll join. How much can it be? And he said, well, that'll put you on all sorts of lists. And I said, any list that you're on, I'm happy to be on. If the government decides anybody on the listed club is going to jail, I'll share a cell with you. Let's go. And he went, I mean, it'll be really awkward. And I said, okay, I've been awkward before, but we'll go.

This is 1981. Even now, some people might be listening going, wow, but this is 81. This is, yeah. My friends were still going to bathhouses in the 2000s. I think they're still. Oh, yeah. They still exist. No, no, they still exist. And that kind of stuff still exists.

But I'm just saying to have. But I'm saying that in the pre-AIDS days, there was a kind of freedom. There was really, it was completely carefree. It was completely carefree. And it was also, there was no worry associated. Now, obviously, there was a lot of worry and there's a lot of other diseases. And I'm not diminishing that. I mean, there's all sorts of hepatitis, and there's all sorts of anerial, and there was all sorts of problems, and people were suffering, and don't get me wrong, but it was different. It was just markedly. And I talked to another friend of

mine, who was also identified as straight, who said, I'll go with you. And I went, okay. So I was living with a woman at the time, and I said, I'm going to Club Baths. And she said, what, you're gay now? I said, I don't know. I said, well, it would be fun to find that out. I said, I have no intention of having sex, but if my penis gets erect, I'll fuck. You know, if that opportunity is there, let's find out. And she said, okay. And, you know,

to my friend, she went, so you and Elliot are going to, I said, yeah, we're going to go. We're going to go. And then on the way over in my, this is so embarrassing to say, I said, I feel a little bit like we're being disingenuous going there because I feel like we may be representing ourselves as being into something we're not into. So we'll just go kind of as a couple and we'll kind of, you know, hold hands and we'll be going around there. Then we won't make anybody uncomfortable. It'll be really good. hold hands and we'll be going around there. Then we won't make anybody uncomfortable. It'll be really good.

Now seems like when you go into the, you know, you had, we had to be a members. It was like a, it was not nothing. It was like $200 and a membership card. And then you go in and they give you a towel,

like a towel, uh, uh, not a bath towel, but like a small towel, hand towel, and then you take all your like a small towel. A hand towel. A hand towel. And then you take all your clothes off. Oh my gosh.

And then you go into this place with kind of a Greek type architecture and there are baths and there are porn rooms and there are workout rooms and there are fuck rooms. And there'd be a door open and a guy just laying on his stomach waiting for anybody to come in and fuck him who wanted to, you know. And there's probably 800 people, 800 men walking around and the towels are mostly hung over the arms and people are, you know, blowing each other everywhere and sex going on and me and my buddy are walking in now i and this is so embarrassing please forgive me i kind of thought there'd be people coming up and kind of hitting on us we'd be going no no no no we're not here so we were there for like an hour and no one talked to us. And these are people who-

Are you a little offended? Who famously fuck anything. But I'm not in that. And my friend who brought me there, George, who, I mean, sadly, was dead of AIDS a few years later. My friend who brought me there, George, he was off in a room, boom, instantly gone. And we're sitting watching gay porn and holding hands and people are fucking all around the

room and no one's looking at us. So finally I said to my friend, okay, stop holding my hand. I want to walk around. So now I'm walking around going, hi, how you doing? Still no one's talking to me. So I was at Club Baz for four hours. And I don't know what it is about me, but at Club Baz, I was invisible. No one paid any attention to me at all. So we were there for four hours. And now this is the part of the story. This is why I don't tell this story much because the sadness is so deep.

I don't mean to be disrespectful. But when I've done the arithmetic, they don't know the exact dates that patient zero, the flight attendant, was at Club Baths. But he was there Sundays, which I was there. He was there the summer I was there. And he was there Sundays, which I was there. He was there the summer I was there.

And he was there most, like about two Sundays a month. And I went to one Sunday that summer. So I was probably walking through there as the plague began. I mean, it's just chilling. And also many, many of the men I was walking among were dead shortly after in horrible, horrible ways. So, this is a good-natured, cute, funny story during the back, you know, it's almost telling a cute story about being in Auschwitz. And I want to make very clear that I mean no disrespect to the horrible suffering there, but you have to try to put me in the time that I was in when there wasn't a plague there, when I was risking Hep B or Hep C, but I wasn't risking AIDS.

And I knew I was risking Hep B and C just by, you know, my doctor, who was gay, my doctor said, you know, people go to Club Baz are compelled to go. You're just going and would you have lemonade? I said, yeah, they had drinks and I had some lemonade. He goes, see, these are men. You're the only straight patient I have. You shouldn't be the one who's going to club baths. Stop it. So Elliot and I came out and we just said, we can't pass for gay at club baths where nobody that walks in the door is gay. We

can't pass for that. And I said, there's the expression couldn't get laid in a woman's prison with a fistful of pardons. We just couldn't get laid at club baths. We couldn't get laid at club baths. And we were walking. It was about three in the morning, four in the morning. And we're walking through the streets of San Francisco. And we started laughing so hard about how unattractive we were. We were hysterical laughing. And we fell into each other's arms laughing on the street at which point some high school kids went by said faggots and threw a beer bottle at us and we went yes somebody somebody thinks so um that was my uh my uh adventures in uh in uh at club baths at that time.

There's a dating story for you. A terribly failed dating story. But speaking of dating, so obviously you had girlfriends. So when you were doing these things, you've always been adventurous. Have you always dated women who were like, oh, I guess you're going to do that? Or have you ever had to explain yourself a little bit more i have been um you know i've been married now 15 years and i'm 65 years old but um in years previous uh i would have uh girlfriends who uh who wanted to keep things more traditional, but they sure didn't last long.

I hear you have a unique way of, you had a unique way of breaking up with people. Well, yeah. I would, for a long time, people would really enjoy my company for a couple three years and then get sick of me but the novelty really wears off you know I feel that way about me sometimes you know like I'm interesting for a moment you know I just stick I discovered this thing I think I kind of invented it called tattoos of blood I was at the I was at the, um, I was at the Harley, uh, convention, uh, big, the big meat Harley, which we, you know, Milwaukee. Yeah. And, uh, it was the 90th anniversary, I guess it was

back with Bobcat, Goldthwait and Judy to new it. And those guys were doing a show on that. And everybody's getting tattoos and I, I didn't want a tattoo, but I also didn't want to come off as being less strong than the others. So, I asked if I could get a tattoo without ink. Now, ink is a coagulant and a lubricant. So, if you don't have ink on the needle, it hurts more and it bleeds more. But it only lasts for like three years. And I would say, well, this is the greatest thing in the world because my relationships last about three years. So, I got a buddy of mine, Tony Fitzpatrick, a great artist in Chicago,

great artist. And he did, and you can just see ghosts of it on my arm. He did a whole big heart, my girlfriend's name in it, and it was all in blood and stuck there and beautiful and strong and ripped and, God, it was great. And then three years later, she was gone. It was gone. Great. Perfect. I offered my buddy Lou Reed. I told him that he could do with a tattoo needle all the credits to the album New York on my back in tattoo needle and just blood. And he said he wrote a song song called tattoo of blood about me and I wrote an article in the New York Times called all the pain and none of a gain about getting tattoos of blood and it was great because I wrote this whole thing about how much fun it is to feel that intense pain and and we had a letter to the editor that came in and said, is Mr. Gillette suggesting that

our children do not have enough ways to hurt themselves and should find more? And I said, well, I'd like to answer that. Yes, yes. But so the tattoo of blood lasted about the same amount of time. And then the other thing, I should go to the list of things that sexual partners I've been involved with have hated about me. I like to work you know, way back before I was married, after about a year, they start saying, you'll never take time off. You'll never take a vacation. That's one of the big things, you know. Also, the fact that I'm crazier than a shithouse rat. Those are the two things that tie together. So, what I discovered was, when things are getting really, really tense and I'm being pushed by someone I'm dating, I just say, because I have money, I just say, we're finally going to take a vacation. We'll go to Hawaii.

Because I hate Hawaii. I don't like Hawaii. I can't picture you there. One bit. So, I mean, I'm sure the people there are wonderful. Sure. But beaches and shit, you know, who cares? So, you know, I'm sure the people there are wonderful. Sure. But beaches and shit, you know, who cares? So, you know, I'm a leather jacket kind of guy.

I'm not a beach guy. Fuck that. So, I mean, I like scuba diving now and again, but Jesus, come on. Hawaii? If you want to live in paradise, what are you going to talk about? So, I would get a nice hotel and airfare and fly over. I did this, I only did this like two, maybe three times. And I fly over with the girlfriend.

And then you have me not working. You know, I'm sneaking off to write stuff on my laptop and things. And it's bound to lead to a fight. Yeah. and things and it's bound to lead to a fight yeah and then about two days into the vacation i let the fight escalate and then i go listen room's paid for you got your return ticket enjoy yourself here find a guy on the beach you know bang the towel guy you know, bang the towel guy, you know, have a blast. I'm getting the next flight out. I'll go home.

Have a good time. You maroon him in paradise. And it's great. That's a nice, that's thoughtful and abrupt at the same time. And they can get laid and have a blast in Hawaii. You know, they're going to have a blast, right? Romance can start there. What could be better? Everything's paid for. They're all done. And then back in New York City, back in

Times Square, back at my computer, everybody's happy. So I suggest that breakups should be done on vacation and planned that way. Because, you know, the first couple nights you get in, the sex is great and it's nice. You can walk on the beach and about 48 hours is all you want in Hawaii. So plan seven days, do two days, boom. The concept I kind of did, yours is a little bit more efficient

because there's an easier out, but I would just move in with them. You know, we would be struggling and it was like it just feels wrong i don't know and then they would suggest we'd move in i'm like i don't think we should and i was like you know what you're right let's just move in because give it three weeks and we'll be killing each other yeah my friend my out my friend gado suggests that instead of honeymoons, we should do right before marriage, the couple goes off on a really extreme and difficult vacation. Camping. Like you got to go camping in the Amazon.

Yeah. You know. And then if you make it through there, then you do the wedding plans. Absolutely. I'm starting to think like first dates shouldn't be like things we enjoy. It should be escape rooms and camping and, you know, fight something that will stimulate some sort of disagreement because you don't really know who you are until you are not getting along. Well, the most dangerous thing that anybody ever said to me about dating, and this is

a virus, more dangerous than COVID-19. Because once you have this in your head, it's just horrible. Friend of mine said, and luckily he said this late enough in my dating career that it didn't destroy my life. But if you're listening and you're young, you can listen to this and this will destroy your life. When you go out on your first date you're sitting across from somebody try to think what habit they have that will drive you crazy in a year if that goes through your head oh man horrible miserable everybody should do it totally i completely agree yeah totally because like it's and usually what it is is

the thing you might even think that's really endearing at first because it's different you haven't seen it before that's the very thing that's really going to piss you off and you'll end up breaking up with them for but i also believe that you know um in the um there was I am nuts about consent. And consent with me is not even political or humanitarian. Consent to me is a kink. I mean, nothing turns me on more than consent so when i think was antioch college way back in the 90s before the um the uh the b2 movement had really kicked off or anything had this rule on their campus you know this hippie campus in ohio that was in the news and

ridiculed in the news that you had to get written permission before kissing someone. Oh, kissing. Yeah. Written permission before kissing someone. And this was heavily ridiculed all over. Sure. And I read it and went, oh, greatest thing ever.

I love this so much. love this so much because I will not, you know, I, before I was married, would not consider going out with someone unless there was, and usually because I, you know, I've had email since 84. I mean, I was one of, oh, I had email early enough that the only people I could write to were Steve Jobs. And, you know, that's who I wrote to. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. What'd you have for breakfast? That was my emails. So I went to email very quickly. So I would never go out with anybody unless we knew exactly what was going to happen sexually. Wait, really? Consent was all laid out.

Yeah. I wouldn't consider it. Wouldn't consider anything. I'm not going to have that discomfort in guessing. I also don't want to be out with someone who has different plans than me. And I, because I never had a drink in my life, and because if someone at that time, now I don't care because I'm married. But at that time, if someone ordered a glass of wine with dinner when we were out, I would just pay the check and leave.

Nice talking to you. This is really great. I don't know what you're going to eat, but I'll leave my credit card here and I'll sign it and put in anything you want and a tip. I'm out of here. Why? Because I didn't like to be around people who were drunk. See, when I went to high school, I noticed I don't say graduated. When I got out of high school, it was 73, which in rural America, until the opioids

crisis, that was the big drug time. Everybody in my high school, I went to a rural, very bad, deadbeat, dead factory town high school. Everybody was drunk, stoned, tripping balls all the time. I was always sober. I got full scholarship anywhere I wanted to go. And I said to the guidance counselor, promise me a school where no one is drinking, no one's doing drugs, and I'll go. But otherwise, I don't even want to be around them again. I don't want to be around drugs. I just don't want to be. I hate them.

Because all we'll do is they end up playing the Grateful Dead. I don't like that music. And so I would be really against that. And I also, I'm the only person, I believe, who's never smoked marijuana, who's been on the cover of High Times Magazine. Because I pushed very hard for legalization. Because I want all drugs legal. By the way, all drugs. Why?

Completely legal. Because if you don't have the right to put whatever you want in your body, you're not living in a free society. And if you don't have the right to put whatever you want in your body, you're not living in a free society. And if you don't have the right to be stupid, you don't have freedom. No one needs freedom to be smart. You need freedom to be stupid. I do a lot of stupid shit. You want to do stupid shit, that's fine. That doesn't necessarily mean you want to be in the same room with me when I'm doing my stupid shit. I feel the same for you. So I used to be a real nut about that. So I would like to, you know, all the stuff that people complain about taking the romance out, I am so in favor of. Because you want that to be time efficient.

I also don't want to be, when I was dating, I did not want to be out with someone who didn't find me attractive. And the idea that people say, well, you know, you have a few drinks and you loosen up, you don't really know until then. Good. If you don't really know until then, we're not going to go out now. I like that. I like a level of passion. First of all, and this is,

I don't think there's any difference between men and women or gay and straight. I think there is no difference whatsoever. And what, can you explain? No difference. Individual differences are so much greater

than group differences that the group differences become completely uninteresting. If you prove to me, you know, if you can prove to me that there is a racial quality that people share who are from a certain place, I can give you exceptions within the sample. Okay? So, any trait you want to attribute to cis female, any trait you want to attribute to a cis female, any trait you want to attribute to that, I have got in my phone, the phone number of 10 cis women who will beat you on that front on the masculine side for every single thing you can come up with.

So all that matters is individuals. And I am never, I mean, I'm not saying I'm categorically against it, but I will never sleep with every woman and man on the planet. I'm not against it. There's a time element. This is not practical. So I'm only going to be having sex with individuals or groups of two or three or whatever. Single digits probably at a time.

Right? So I'm only dealing with individuals. So the fact that there may be some aggregate is totally uninteresting to me. You know? It's like telling me, well,, yeah, men are taller than women. That makes no difference to me at all. How tall is the person I'm talking to? That doesn't even give you that information. It doesn't. You know, I have, I have many male friends who are shorter than many women friends. And that's just a clear one that you can just mark on the wall with a little pencil.

Okay? But all the emotional ones follow those same things. So I don't happen to want somebody, I mean, if it's a date, which I think the word date has to include some possibility in the future of sex. Yeah. Has to. I've been on a bunch where that was not my... But the possibility.

But was it considered? Not even considered. Like, I feel like sometimes you just feel like you should try, but you don't. But is that from both sides? But to Penn's point, it's like you don't go on a date. It's called hanging out with a friend if you don't go with the possibility. But someone will ask you out, and you'll be like, I'll just go on a date with them, but

I in no way plan to have sex. I've never gone on a date with someone in that position where I didn't think. But that person asking you out may be considering sex? Yeah. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. So what I would say is if I were asking you out, I would find out in advance. So you'd never be uncomfortable. You're not going to be uncomfortable, right?

Because that's putting pressure on you to say, oh, is he going to, what do we actually intend? By the way, your answer could be, you know, I'm really not considering having sex with you at all. And that's a perfectly okay answer. Okay, let's go out. That's a perfectly okay answer. That's so great. Wow. We could all do that. But then also, and also, by the way, this is incredibly important to add, because this

may be the most important part. You can change your mind at any instant. Yes. We're only talking about consent and intent, but you can change your mind. The sex act can be happening. Yep. You can be in the middle of the sex act. You have to stop.

And you can say, I'm not comfortable with this. And then it's just, do you use Uber or Lyft? Those are the only two questions that are asked at that point. There's only one question. Do you use Uber or Lyft? Not, why are we stopping? Right, right, right. What's making you uncomfortable?

What's wrong? Are we gonna do it again? None of those questions. I don't give a fuck about any of those questions. Is it Uber or Lyft? Because I mean, there's some labor thing with Lyft. They weren't treating their drivers fair. So if I call- Uber, Uber. Is it Uber or Lyft? Because I mean, there's some labor thing with Lyft. They weren't treating their drivers fair.

So if I call... Uber, Uber. It was Uber. So Uber, so you don't want to call Uber. We're not going to talk about whether you were

comfortable with my penis there. That doesn't come up. It's Uber or Lyft. And also, we completely respect your decision on Uber or Lyft. We're not even

going to argue about that. We're not even going to argue about that. I'm not going to say, well, you know, Uber did have that thing with the driver's Lyft. No. We're not even going to argue about that. We're not even going to argue about that. I'm not going to say, well, you know, Uber did have that thing with the driver's license. No, we're not even going to do that. And you can do it in mid-stroke. You can change your mind. Right before you finish.

Right. And I have been tested on that. Yeah. I've had people absolutely guarantee what the whole evening was going to go and then just go, you know, I don't know what it is. I'm not into that. It's just boom, gone. Mm-hmm.

Just fucking gone. You know. That's great. And I want to be, I wanted, when I was dating, before I was married, I wanted to be known as the person who's easiest to say no to. Oh, beautiful. And I had a huge number of women friends, identified female friends. And they would come back to me and they would talk about this guy they went out with who

wouldn't fucking give up and da-da-da. And they would tell me all these horror stories. And would just say to them i'm not going to be one of them never in any situation doesn't matter and sometimes sometimes that would turn into a uh a negative thing i had i had women uh a couple times who you know said they weren't interested and then said a while later, well, I didn't mean I wasn't going to be interested forever. And I went, okay, but I'm not going to try to convince you. Because first of all, let's not even talk about morality. The morality is crystal clear and solid, but let's talk practical, okay? If you're going to go to the trouble to take your fucking clothes off

for someone who is on the fence about whether they want to have sex with you, wouldn't you be better off reading? Yeah, or just jerking off and then reading. Yeah, sure, sure. I mean, it's just no reason. If you have any, if you have one little bit of doubt in your mind, I'm going to rather spend that time with Nicholson Baker reading a book. You know, there's just no doubt about it. Because you, I mean, all we care about is the passion. And especially, you know, the jerking off thing is a real, real thing. We have access to such wonderful, beautiful

masturbation material that, and have for years and years and years, that there's never any sort of need, you know, and that kind of stuff is just nonsense. Yeah. That's why you can stop in the middle of anything.

Okay, you know, get in the Uber as quickly as you can so I can finish this. I mean, this is all very interesting and I love that you're saying it because obviously with the consent and sex, but so much when it comes to dating in general before we even get there,

we are, your point of view is great because it's clear, but so many of us are afraid to ask the questions of which we're most likely gonna hear no about. Oh yeah, but those questions are so fun. I guess I should not give her name. I won't, but it'd be so much funnier if I really did. But-

What a tease. I know. I know. But I'm thinking about it. And I know she wouldn't mind. And yet, I still don't think it's proper. But I had a woman that I went out with for a while. and I talked to her. I said, do you want to have dinner? And she said, yeah, I want to have dinner with you, but I would rather if we met for sex first and then had sex and then went to dinner because if we have sex and we like it,

then we want to have as much time together to fuck as we can possibly get. And if I don't like it, I'm certainly not going to waste time having fucking dinner with you. You are a great conversationalist. And I went, good, good. Great, great. You agreed? I agreed very quickly. Very good deal.

And that's the way she ran her whole life. Very efficiently. Very, very, very efficiently. That's common in the gay community, actually, to meet up for sex first and then go on a date. Sure. It's also, especially with the new way I eat, if I were dating now, that would be definitely because I don't like to do anything after I eat.

I like to do everything hungry. I mean, when I went on Jeopardy, when I was on Jeopardy, who won? Oh, it was me. I won. I made sure I hadn't eaten the whole day before. Because if I'm going to do something that requires my focus, I want to have at least 24 hours not eating. I want to be there. 24 hours?

Oh, sure. Don't you fast for like 23 hours a day now? Yeah, yeah. What? I want to be dead on focused to do stuff. Is he going to look up Jeopardy? You better look up Jeopardy. Yeah.

But yeah, there I am. There I am winning fucking Jeopardy. Wow. And that's one hungry motherfucker right there. And everybody else was eating scrambled eggs and bagel and shit backstage. Yeah, you look lean. They are going to lose. I also, you know when you get yelled at for Jeopardy?

Let me tell you a little bit about Jeopardy. to lose. I also, you know when you get yelled at for Jeopardy? Let me tell you a little bit about Jeopardy. First of all, they had, because I was on one of the categories was bull blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, you know, one, two, three, T, you know. So they blanked out. I said, I'll take bullshit for 200. And my wife was there and she said to the producer, she said, And my wife was there and she said to the producer, she said, he just said shit on Jeopardy. What do you do on Jeopardy? Do you blip it or do you just cut it out? And the producer said, we don't know.

No one's ever sworn on Jeopardy before. Never. Never? Never. Never came up. I also, they don't have a rule that says you have to stay behind the lectern. But when you wander away from the lectern and just walk around the set and walk over to Alec and stuff, they get very uncomfortable. I'm sure they go nuts.

Because everybody stays behind that lectern. But there's no rule on it. So I would finish my question. And if someone else had it, I just wander over, stand next to Alec and watch him. So there may have been some fucking with them psychological warfare going on. So anyway, this all ties in with if we were going to have sex, I'd rather be hungry.

And then we'll go out to a vegan place and stuff ourselves afterwards and chitter chat. Also, we can chitter chat better. We don't have the subtext of how long are we going to be chitter chattering before we get to fun. So I think that all that consent stuff, what bothers me about the consent stuff is that it's always laid out as a necessary thing you have to do in order to be a good person. It's not laid out as, wow, wouldn't this be fun? Let's just lay out what you're into.

How great would that be? Just give me a checklist. What could be more fun than that? Oh, good, we're gonna try that, great. And it's really hard with that kind of checklist. It's like know, and it's really hard, you know, uh, it would, that kind of checklist. It's like, Jesus, it's hard to think of something that, uh, that I wouldn't be okay with on that list. You know, very hard to see that, uh, to see that list of stuff that you just go, nope, nah, not going to come up. So, uh, so all those rules, all those rules of consent, I think should be,

they're sold so angrily and they could be sold so pleasantly. Now, I know there's, you know, I am not in any way discounting the horrible suffering and date rape and all of how terrible that is. I'm not discounting that. I'm just saying you can have all of that protected and at the same time make the solution fun, you know. And also, I need to say it another time, and you can change your mind. But it's really nice if you know what someone's intent is because often often especially a person with my personality my intent does not change and i'm not talking about sex i'm not talking about sex here i'm talking about everything very rare i am a non-spontaneous person i'm just not spontaneous

at all i plan the dive i dive the plan you know if I say I'm gonna do something, chances are I'm gonna do it. But that's so true, upfront expectations, you're definitely drastically reducing the chances of getting yourself in situations where we're playing this game of confusion and trying to figure out each other. And also trying to, plausible deniability. Sure, yeah. That idea of, well, you gave me the signal that you might into.

You invited me up or, you know, it's just like all these kind of, we reduce the gray. And you check, you can check every two minutes, every step, everything. Still cool? Still okay? Still all right? Boom. It's great. And it's, I just, i just don't see how and and

then you know i have a i have a good friend who um reminds me that if you've never had a drink of alcohol and never had any drug you cannot read the paper it's impossible to read the paper. Because I read the news every day and I say to my friends, how did this fucking happen? How did this happen? And they go, they were drunk. And I go, oh. It doesn't say that. They go, it's assumed. It's assumed

that every article you read in the fucking newspaper, you idiot, that everybody was drunk. Everybody, including the arresting officer. Now just shut the fuck up. Don't act so naive. How did they end up with four vans inside the house? They were drunk.

And I just forget that entirely. I went to the trauma unit in Vegas. The best trauma, supposedly the best trauma unit in the world is in Las Vegas, medical trauma unit. Makes sense. And that's why Roy of Siegfried and Roy got his head bit off by a tiger and lived. Any place else in the world, he wouldn't. When the shooting happened in Las Vegas, every single person that got to the trauma unit lived. Wow, I didn't know that. If you get to the parking lot of the Las Vegas University Trauma Center, you live.

Wow. The guy, we went to deliver a check, not our money, but Caesars gave a big check to them. And because we were working there, they brought us in as figureheads to give them the checks. We get to hang out with the trauma guys. And the trauma guy said, you know, the other night, a guy gets shot three times in our parking lot. And the docs just came out with me and went, oh, come on, too fucking easy. Give us a challenge.

You're getting shot in the parking lot? We could have lunch first and then go save you. He said, you bring a piece of shit in our front door, we'll keep it alive. But I said to the guy, and I was baiting him. I was baiting him. I was leading the witness. I was being unfair. I was leading the witness.

I was being unfair. I said, what percentage of trauma cases coming in here are drug and alcohol related? He said, 100%. I said, it can't be 100%. He said, it is. I said, well, you must have traffic accidents. He said, yeah, and one of the people is drunk. And I said, well, barbecue accidents. He goes, always drunk.

I go, swimming accidents. He people is drunk. Yeah. And I said, well, barbecue accidents. He goes, always drunk. I go, swimming accidents. He goes, drunk. He says, if you are sober, if you and your family do not do drugs, we never see you. I mean, it makes sense. It's amazing. of people cannot imagine being involved, especially with a new person sexually, without some sort of alcohol or drugs to grease the wheels. Once I've eliminated that from my life, it seems the other stuff kind of falls into place. Because then you're going to be able to talk about that. If you need alcohol to loosen up

to talk about sex, then that consent thing is going to make you very uncomfortable on both sides. And the consent is not a promise. I like that. It's really good. What is your intent? I would also say

I have when people are worried about disease and pregnancy and all that kind of stuff, I always tell them just do kinky stuff. So fucking safe. The pen and teller bullshit, it's more hygienic to rub butts and jerk each other off than to kiss and shake hands. Yeah. Well, yeah. If you're talking about shaking hands, you are much better giving hand jobs than shaking hands.

There's no doubt about it. And really, I mean, really, you can blow things you find dead on subways and you're better off than shaking hands with Elizabeth Warren. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I mean, if you're shaking hands with Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders, you are taking your life into your hands. I mean, you want to just, you want to put your hands in boiling water after that. Because, you know, Teller and I, we have always, this is unusual for people, we meet anyone after the show that wants to

meet us. There's a meet and greet for every single person. In Vegas, if you want to meet David Copperfield, you pay 500 extra bucks or something. But we just stand around. For free? Yeah. Wow. Any length of time, anybody, any question.

And all the other entertainers only sign merchandise they sell. We'll sign anything. We've only signed a couple penises, a lot of breasts. We will sign any piece of paper. I will sign Bibles. I will sign anything. I will take a picture doing anything with anybody anytime. But Teller and I do not, do not under any circumstances touch our faces. We will not get our hands near our faces. We will not get our hands near anyone else's faces. And we go backstage and we've done this for years and years. And we have ER surgical scrubs that are used to wash up to do surgery. And they're in plastic containers.

They're expensive. They're just for doctors going to surgery before you put the, before you glove up. And my father-in-law is a doctor and I asked him the brand and we get them shipped directly in from medical supply. We go backstage. We do not touch anything in our dressing rooms. We open those sponges, and then we do a full five-minute wash. Wow. Fingernails, everything. I mean, I certainly would not greet my children when they come to the show. Scrub down everything, full five-minute wash, throw away the brush, full rinse, brand new towel, clean off, go.

Then I can scratch my nose, which has been driving me crazy for 10 minutes. So I so hope on the campaign trail that Bernie's doing that. Oh, please. Yeah. They should put you in charge of the coronavirus outbreak. Well, you know, I can't imagine I'm less qualified than Pence. I mean, I have at least been to the Center for Disease Control and gotten a full tour of Usamerid.

I've at least done that. I've at least read the books. I've at least done that. Yeah. I've at least read the books. Yeah. But yeah, I think, although on COVID-19, the problem is it's airborne. So all the stuff I've talked about, if someone coughs or sneezes within six feet of me, all my stuff doesn't make any difference.

And wearing a mask doesn't help. Wearing a mask is good to protect other people from you it does much less protecting you from that yesterday uh before i let you go uh do you have a i feel like you have a probably a pretty great heartbreak story you mentioned heartbreak being important but at the same time it's hard for me to imagine you being heartbroken because i feel like you might always be the one ending it no no, no, no, no, no. I do some of the cliche gender things, or the weak things. The weak things people do,

which is trying to make the other person upset enough that they break up with you. I do that. You do that? I do that weak thing, yeah. I did. I do not stand up. I don't remember. Going to Hawaii and picking a fight. That's true. You do that? I do that weak thing. I did. I don't remember.

Going to Hawaii and picking a fight. That's true. It's been 15 years. Yeah. I mean, I don't really remember. I don't know what I would be like now. I would like to think I would get rid of that. But I should.

I think this is appropriate for your show. I haven't told this story in a while, but it seems like a story that you should hear. There was a woman I live with, and we actually bought her parents' house together. We were living together in LA, actually in Orange County, Fullerton. And I got the gig to go to New York and to go off-Broadway. Now, we did not think off-Broadway was going to be successful. When she got involved with me, I was carny trash. She just thought she was living her life with carny trash. She did not expect to live her life with someone who was a successful off-Broadway. So, I went and I said, we're going to go off-Broadway. We'll be there for two weeks. We'll get shitty reviews and I'll come home.

So I went off-Broadway and we got a blow job in the New York Times. They just loved us and went to Broadway. And it began to strain our relationship because my phone calls were filled with, you know, talking to Bill Murray and Paul Simon. And she was still, you know, working as a bartender at a strip club. So finally, she broke up with me. And at that time, I was still one of those weak people that when someone breaks up with you,

that's when you fall madly in love with them. It's the worst kind of thing you can do. So I had decided, I was doing an eight show week off Broadway, eight shows a week, which is a Broadway schedule, which is hardcore. But I decided that I was going to, and she'd moved out, and she'd moved in with a lesbian friend of hers who hated me. Met me a couple times and hated me. It's always a good idea to move in with someone that hates the person you're moving out of. It's a good plan.

We all do it, you know. If you don't get along with a friend of yours' spouse, you're the one that that person's going to come to when they have trouble. So she'd moved in with the person that hated me the most in the world. And I was doing this crazy thing. We have one day off and I was going to fly from New York to LA in violation of my contract, by the way, and then get back in time to do the show, you know, two days later. And I was going to fall into her arms, declare my love for her. Everything would be okay. Okay. So I flew out there and it was sad and terrible and miserable and awful. And she was

living, I was living a rather opulent lifestyle then because I was very successful. And she was living a kind of student lifestyle with her lesbian friend. But I was there, you know, we talked all night and then she was on a futon and I could sleep on that futon, but there was no sex. It was kind of sad and sad and melancholy like it always is, you know. And I couldn't sleep. I could not sleep on the futon. She fell asleep. So I got up and I'm in this small place

with a lesbian who hates me. And when I can't sleep, I sleep in the bathtub. I sleep many nights in the bathtub. I read and I sleep in the bathtub and I sleep in there till it gets cold. So I did, they didn't have a bathtub. So now I'm panicked. So I decide in there until it gets cold. So, I didn't, they didn't have a bathtub. So, now I'm panicked. So, I decide to take a really hot shower. So, I go into the one bathroom, you know, they got two bedrooms. I go into the, I take a really hot shower. I say,

I'll try to get myself sweating and miserable. I'll be able to sleep on the floor. It'll be really good. I'll pass out good. Got to get back and do the show. So, I'm in the shower and I take a really hot, hot shower and I get out of the shower and there is no towels. No towels at all. No towels in the bathroom. Not like old or used or anything. No towels. Towelless. So I open the door and there's two doors. And one of them is the bedroom with the woman who hates me. And one of them might be a linen closet that has towels. But I am now standing there naked. And I know that if I open the door to her room naked, not only will this be terrible, but there may actually be prison time involved. So, I'm trying to

peek under the door, which I also think now I'm on my hands and knees naked. Peeking. Peeking under the door. So, I go back in and there's a blow dryer and I go, oh man, this is, I'll use the blow dryer. So I take the blow dryer and I turn it on and I go, wow, this is fucking great. And I turn it up on high, everything. And I'm using the blow dryer all over my body to get I'm going wow This is drier than I've ever been. This is the greatest thing in the world. I love this I love this and I'm dry and at that time I had hair down my back and I'm drying my hair I said never use the blow dryer. This is great. And then we come to the cock and balls perineum and asshole area and And I go, this is great.

And I put the blow dryer directly under my balls. And I go, wow, these little wrinkles in the testicle skin, these have never been dry in my life. I mean, I've used the blow dryer in that area. And it's a game changer. It's fabulous. And then I'm right on the perineum. And I go, this is great.

Not even the slightest bead of sweat. This is great. And then I come up under my cock, right? And I go, this is great. So I grab the head of my cock by the very tip of the pee hole and I stretch it out and up and I take the blow dryer, which has now been on for 10 minutes. The blow dryer has been on for 10 minutes. And the heating element, which is recessed somewhat, is white hot now. It's almost to the point of shutting down. And I'm right under my, I go, this is amazing. I'm like the Louis Pasteur of hygiene.

This is the greatest. Why doesn't everybody do this? This is great. So I'm holding the very tip. You know what I'm talking about. The very tip of the pee hole, just like that, of a flaccid penis, but stretched out flaccid penis. And at that point, there is a rustle from the other room,

like someone may be coming in to the bathroom. And I am startled. And I let go of the pee hole. And my dick goes right into the blow dryer and onto the element. And it goes, and like a Wendy's and onto the element. No. And it goes. And like a Wendy's burger at the end.

And then it sticks to it. No. And I pull it off and little pieces. No. Little tiny pieces of skin of the head of my circumcised cock are on the element of the blow dryer. And I go, and also someone's coming in to the bathroom and they may catch me putting penis flesh into the blow dryer. So now I pull it off and now the end of my cock is blistered and bleeding and there's little pieces of it in the blow dryer, which I'm trying to get out.

And there's also smell of hamburger in there. Okay. And I'm like, ah! So I finally get the blow dryer clean. And that was a false alarm. And I put the blow dryer. And I also think it may be the lesbian's blow dryer that I put penis pieces into. So I'm going, oh, Jesus.

And then I look at my cock and it's just like a Wendy's hamburger. It's got a crosshatch across the top of blisters, right? Of blisters across the top. And I'm like, oh, Jesus. Oh, and it hurts a lot, a wicked lot. So now I go, oh, Jesus. And now it's like almost dawn. And I go, oh.

So I put my underwear on and I get dressed. And I go out and I sit in the living room. I just sit there. And it's amazing how much my cock hurts. How are you not going to the hospital? And then the woman who hates me gets up first and sure she won't even look at me or talk to me and I'm sitting there kind of pretending to be sleeping,

sitting up and she leaves. And then the love of my life comes in, right? And she says, oh yeah, did you leave? I said, I had a little trouble sleeping, so I took a shower and I've been out here. She goes, oh, yeah. And she's like making breakfast, and she's like really, really friendly

and really, really nice. She comes over and she sits down on the couch and we're talking and she puts her hand on my thigh and I go, listen, before we go any further, I have to tell you something. Now that's the worst thing

that you can ever say when someone's making a sexual move on you. And she says, what? I said, well, no, she goes, what? What's wrong with you? What kind of disease do you have? What's wrong with you? And I go, well, before you do that, it may be very unpleasant.

She goes, what? I go, I took a shower. Oh, no. And I tell her the story a little bit more condensed than I told you. Oh, I dropped my cock in a blow dryer. And she says, let me see. And I go, no, you don't. She goes, let me see.

I go, no, I, I, I, no, no. She goes, let me see. I go, no, I, I, I, no, no. She goes, let me see. So here we are in an apartment in LA, nine in the morning, sun filled, woman that I haven't been naked with for a few months. haven't been naked with for a few months. I now have to stand up in front of her in some sort of horrible, like total humiliation thing. And I like unbuckle my jeans, drop my pants. There's my underwear. My underwear already has seeping pus. No.

And it's already stuck to. And I pull my pants down and she says, show me. So I kind of show her the end of my penis like a Wendy's hamburger. And I say, it's not my fault. It was an accident. And she says, Penn, these things do not happen to normal people. I want to live my life with normal people. Get out.

So I go, oh, can I pull up my soggy puss underwear and I pull up my jeans and I buckle them up and I go out and stand. Would you call me a cab? Because this is the 80s. Would you just call me a cab? Yes, I'll call cab just get out so there i am standing out front takes like then i go sit in the airport you fly back to new york like that for seven hours sitting in the airport then fly to new york and then directly on stage so that is the blow dryer what what do you need more i think i think we got it we're just gonna have we're gonna play one little game and then we'll let you go uh that's amazing i'm just thinking about oh god i don't that that had to have hurt i mean i've shaved my balls and scratched it and it hurts that that's burning.

It's, wow. Yeah. We're going to play one more game before we let you go. It's called Do You Know Me? It's real fun and simple. Okay. We like to ask simple questions and then figure out who knows you better. And then if you have an anecdotal story, which I'm sure you're good at sharing.

And then we like to learn more about our guests this way. So it's called Do You Know Me? With Penn Jillette.ette okay question number one does pen have any hidden piercings don't know don't answer right away we're gonna guess i think he definitely did once at some point in his life he no longer has the piercing what it used to have nipples pierced or somewhere else i don't think he does sure i mean i don't know where maybe. Sure. I mean, I don't know where. Maybe the balls, maybe the nipple. But at some point, he certainly tried it. Got blood tattoos.

I don't think you have any or ever had any. It's a very difficult question to answer because of the word hidden. Hidden. I know. That's what I was thinking, too. You're naked all the time. I had my ear pierced, and I'm wearing headphones.

Oh. But I think in the spirit of the question, I do not have any I was thinking too. You're naked all the time. I had my ear pierced and I'm wearing headphones. Oh. But I think in the spirit of the question, I do not have an ear pierced. Okay. Rochelle, I hope for an early lead. This never happens. Question number two. Has Penn ever faked sick to stay home from work? No.

No. No. No. Yeah. Workaholic. I don't even know what that question means. Yeah. You work all the time. He's probably been on his deathbed and showed up for work.

I've pulled the IVs out of my arm at the hospital, gone and done a show. Yeah, come back. He just told a story about his balls being cooked and still showed up for work. Penis dropped in. Penis. My balls did not drop into there. Question number three. Has Penn ever spent two weeks in a hospital?

Also, no. He works too much. Two weeks. Two plus weeks. I think maybe, yeah. I think something happened. I'm going to say no. Well, when I was three weeks old, I had a hernia operation.

A hernia operation? When I was lifting a piano. No, I was three weeks old. I don't know what it was. Well, 1955. 1955. I think I might have been. I don't know.

That information is now gone because my mother, my father, my sister are dead. So anybody that had that information is dead. Wow. So it might have been around that time, but not in my adult life. How old was your sister when she passed away? Well, we didn't even get to the weirdness of my family. My sister was 23 years older than me, and we were the only two children and same parents. So they either planned their children 23 years apart, or I was an accident.

Wow. You probably don't have that much of a range in the 10 children in your family, right? Is it 23 years? No. Yeah. I mean, I'm six months. I have an older sister. I'm six months closer in age to my father than I am to my youngest sister.

And then I have an older sister. So there's like a 25, 26 year gap. Okay. So just imagine that. My mom was 47 when she had the youngest. But no one in between. Yes. That's essentially what we get.

That is insane. Question number four. Has Penn ever brought donuts to work? Definitely not now. Definitely not now. I don't know. I feel like he's a great boss, but donuts are too basic.

And yeah, I'm going to say no. We were working with Disney and it was not going well. We're working with Disney again. It is going well. Good. Back, it was with Lorne Michaels and Saturday Night Live. We were working with Disney in the 80s. It wasn't going well.

And we had a female producer. And I had been to Florida. There was a place called Our Donuts where there was a topless donut shop. Okay. It was the greatest place in the world. That's a great idea. Greatest place in the world for me.

No alcohol. Right. Right? But topless, carrying coffee, and bringing you a donut. I loved it. What a dream. So I came back and I said to our producer, I love this topless donut shop.

You should deliver donuts to the Disney people topless. And she gave me some schooling where she said, you know, you always think that's funny for a woman to be naked in that situation, which takes away my power and does this, you'd never suggest that to a guy. And I said, I really, I was way out of line. I should never have done that. So then the meeting happened and it was Lorne Michaels and Teller and all the Disney executives and our producer, who was a woman, all lined up at a table. And when everybody was sitting down there, I went into the closet, just walked into the closet where I had a tray of two dozen donuts and I took off all my clothes.

And I came in to a board meeting in New York, totally butt ass naked with a tray of donuts. I don't know how apt it is. I'm just kidding Don't be prudish I said want a cruller I walked in and I served donuts To everybody That was by the way the end of the deal

And she was I said I just wanted to show you That I would never ask you to do something I wouldn't do myself And I just asked you show you that I would never ask you to do something I wouldn't do myself. And I just asked you topless. I did full nude. And so I have brought donuts to work and delivered them naked.

I did not expect that to be such a great question. Yeah, that was a good question. Last question. By the way, you were both wrong. I know. Yeah, I was. I know. I'm not doing a good job. Usually, I'm pretty good at this.

Has Penn gotten a manicure in the past month? His nails are painted. His nails are painted. I'm going to say, yeah. Yeah, he has. He doesn't do that. I don't think he gets manicures. I think he does.

Every week, full manicure. Pedicure every month. Oh, that's every week? Every week. Every week I get a manicure. Every month I get a pedicure. Wow, you got a better schedule than me. That sounds nice.

And look at that. They have glitter on them. I did. I've been. And this is for my mom. I wear my mom's nail polish and my dad's rings. Oh, really? That's really sweet.

And this used to be a little thing when my mom was alive. When I would go on Letterman, I would just do that and say hi to her. Sure. That's so cute. Because I did that in say hi to her. Sure. That's so cute. So I've always had, because I did that in order to mock her. When I first started juggling and doing magic, my mother said, keep your hands looking really nice

to people looking at your hands. And I took her nail polish. She said, you mean like this? And I put nail polish on. And that was done to mock her. And then I did it all the time. And then it was mocking her that it turned to respecting her. And then it turned it all the time. And then it was mocking her that it turned to respecting her.

And then it turned to signaling her. And then you would want to say, my mom died the first day of 2000, that it's remembering her. But that's a nonsense thing to say because I'm such a mama's boy. I remember her every second. But now, my daughter, who is 14, has started lying and telling her friends that um i do that because of her which i i believe my mom would have proved up completely my mom would have approved of that shit yeah my mom would have that's great would have handed the handed the baton to my daughter uh pen thanks so much for coming well thank you. It's been an honor for me. What have we

learned? Get full consent before you go to dinner. Have sex first. You can change your mind. Don't drop your dick into a bloodstream. And you can change your mind after consent. Oh, you can always change it. You can always change your mind. But that's the problem. You know,

you can often, I take that as such a given. If you don't say Oh, it's not. If you don't say it, it makes the whole consent thing ring hollow. Yeah. I mean, and to ourselves, it's really not. In fact, with a lot of guys, it's like once you, oh, wait, what do you mean you changed? Like, no, there's anger and frustration.

Pouting. Yeah, and pouting. Well, first of all, you do not have to guarantee no pouting. Oh. I mean, I wouldn't, I do not have to guarantee no pouting. Oh. I mean, I myself wouldn't do it. Yeah. But that's for ego reasons. But I think you're always allowed in every situation to pout.

Really? Okay. You know, I was brought up in a family that would not raise their voices in an argument, but we would pout. Yeah. You know, my, you know, that was, that was, that was the, the entire, my entire rearing was my parents going, oh, that was the worst. You know, that was just, oh, okay.

Okay. Uh, well, thanks so much. You're doing, uh, incredible things. Writer, director, producer, actor, musician, magician, still longest running show in Vegas, history so much. You're doing incredible things. Writer, director, producer, actor, magician. Still the longest running show in Vegas. History. In history of Vegas. Longest running show in Vegas history.

That is incredible. You have an amazing podcast, Sunday School. Yep, Sunday School, Penn State. I could probably talk for so many hours about, I was listening to your podcast in the way in. But check everything he's doing out. It's fascinating. It's been a real pleasure, and thank you for coming on. Pleasure here.

Thanks for listening, guys. We will see you on Monday. Thanks for the coffee.