The Viall Files - E1122 - Blake & Justin Settle, Jessi's Leaked DM's w/ Emily D Bake, Tom Schwartz Talks SH, Valley And Love!

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap! Wednesday edition! He's baaaaaack! Tom Schwartz drops in to give his thoughts on falling in love, Summer House drama, what to expect on this season of The Valley and more! Plus, Emily D Baker joins to give us all the updates on the Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni settlement and Jessi's leaked DMs with Dakota, as well as if MomTok will survive the departure of Whitney Leavitt. You won't want to miss it :)  "Will Mom Tok survive?" HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: 1-800 Flowers - Mother's Day is Sunday, May 10th and bouquets are selling out fast. Trust me, don't wait. To claim your Double Roses offer before they're gone, visit https://1800flowers.com/viall  Brodo - Shop the best broth on the planet with Brodo.  Head to https://brodo.com/viall for 20% off your first subscription order and use code VIALL for an additional $10 off. Ritual - Don't settle for less than evidence-based support. Save 25% on your first month at https://ritual.com/viall  Rosetta Stone - Ready to start learning a new language this spring? Visit https://www.rosettastone.com/viall today to explore Rosetta Stone and choose the language that's right for you. To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles     Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 16:03 - Emily D Baker Joins 1:01:03 - Tom Joins Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @twschw @theemilydbaker @the_mare_bare @justinkaphillips  

What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Valfa's reality recap edition on a Wednesday. How'd he do? We got a great episode for you a lot going on in the world of, in our world. The world of pop culture. Reality TV, worlds are colliding. Reality TV stars are stars. As evident by Vulture magazine, or more importantly, the Met Gala.

Yeah. On the same day, Vulture magazine highlighted. bunch of, well, it really was just a focus on reality TV stars talking about, like, how, like, it used to be, like, people were talking about all those HBO Sunday night shows, and that would be the water cooler talk. And now it's really just, uh, your favorite reality TV stars and shows are really entering the zeitgeist of real celebrity. Uh, which is, you know, it's cool. Like, I've been in this space for, I don't know, a long time. And like, honestly, it's fun to, like, it's nice not to always be the butt of the joke. Yeah. And I get, it. It. It's, It is nice to, you know, get a little credibility in the space that we operate so much. But on the same day that the release of that Valtzer piece, which go check it out, I was very flattered to be included in a really great cast. But I think it more than just the people recognize, like obviously Andy Cohen and Kathy Hilton, Lindsay Hubbard, Jesse Draper, a really just, I think it was really about a celebration of all reality TV stars. And honestly, like, it almost seems silly to say the work they put in, but just really the vulnerability and just like really. sacrificing their lives, in some ways, some more than others.

But on the same day, we have the Met Galla. And I feel like, I don't know maybe the previous years, but we had Sierra Miller, we had Brawin there. Any other? I mean, that's two. I mean, two more than I feel like any other. Was Areanomatics there? No.

Did you see also that allegedly Alandria was invited to the Met Gala? Wait, I thought she was going. And then uninvited, like, day of? Like, she had on a show. Well, the makeup artist, like, posted, whole thing being like we prepped all of the stuff but like nothing happened and she wasn't there. So like speculation is that she

was uninvited or like something happened. There's no way. There's no way she was uninvite. Like she was done dirty is the speculation. I do. I do know there are a lot of people who chose not to go to the Metcala this year. But she wouldn't that wouldn't have been a rumor if she wasn't ever going to go. I mean like as someone is someone who is

I'm not your like typical MetGala fan so to speak but ever since I became aware of its existence and that was a long time ago as a reality TV star and you see these like major celebrities go to this like what seems to be this really cool

party I don't know if it's actually cool but like it feels cool it seems cool. Exclusive exclusive and as someone in my position it's hard not to be like I wonder if I could ever like get invited to something like this you know it seems it always felt like something unobtainable for someone in my shoes and it probably

still is quite frankly for someone for me but people in our space it's become like Yeah. And it's a realistic opportunity, which is, I think, really fascinating, cool. Well, you know, it's interesting is when influencers were invited to them at Gallo, a la, James Charles, Liza Koshi, like, they got a lot of heat because they're like, why are influencers here?

Pioneers. But then, like, the reality TV stars that are there, nobody's questioning it. They're just like, they've elevated past. Well, yeah, because I think, again, I think those influencers call, you know, we're all part of the same space. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree. TV stars, it's kind of like this kind of lower tier celebrity of like someone call us

talentless. Well, it's like high and low art, whatever. Whatever, yeah. But it's, I think it's kind of cool and fascinating to have Browen and Sierra Miller there. And the Elandria is, like. We don't know much about it. It's all coming through the makeup artist. If I could pick one reality TV star that would seamlessly fit into that crowd would be Orlando.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, she has been. so, like she's been diving headfirst into all of this fashion stuff. And she's so good at it. And she's so good at it. It makes complete sense for her to be there. And unlike most reality TV stars who feel like we have to lead with our mess, our vulnerability, are like kind of, we almost have to really kind of give of ourselves.

Orlandria has done it in more of a traditional celebrity path where it's just more like the mystery of her. Well, Nick Van Steenberg, who was, I guess, guess still dating Alandria, I don't know, anyways, but he was part of The Vulture Piece. The Vulture Peace. And kind of came out being like, hey, I flew

to New York. I like stood there half undressed. Which, why were a lot of y'all undressed? Yeah, was that a playoff? People got mad that I had my shoes off. I was going to ask about the dogs being out. Honestly, it's funny about that reaction. It very, it felt very like, nope,

I'm still a reality TV star. Because like the way reality TV stars get blamed for shit that's not like, they're like, yeah, fine, fuck it, I'll do it, right? You know? Oh, I didn't think it was your choice to go in there without shoes on. I thought it was cute. That was like yours. It was just funny.

And then people are like, like speaking to me is if I was, like I walked in without shoes and said, I'm not wearing shoes today. Fuck you. It's because they also saw yours and Lindsay Hubbard's where she was on a full dress and didn't see the rest of the photos where the whole point in the theme was like undressed Hollywood-esque like. Is that what it was? It's like the vulnerability in the realness.

But it was like there was no tie and it was kind of unbuttoned and it was like, do you want to go no shirt? I was like, I'm not in no shirt shape kind of thing. And then they were like, dogs out. And I was like my wiki feet, I got like a mom. I'm like a 4.9. So I was like, yeah, I'm still in good feet shape. Yeah. Well, Nick came out and basically gave this statement.

Do we have it, Justin? Yeah. Well, so in his Volture article, he basically said smile and shake my hand and then write some shit like that. question mark. That's what he said in response to it. And like the points that stood out was it was the wording that they used in certain parts of his article where they said, the king of those clips was Nick Van Steenberg, the baffled mind behind the inescapable mommy mamacita meme stemming from his utter inability to process the idea that his co-star Hoda Mustafa is the mother of a child. There was another part where it basically said, Van Steenberg is now pursuing that the most tried and true reality

side hustle DJ for hire. Like they were just using a lot of different words. By the middle of the season the fandom had coalesced around painting him with co-star o'landra. Never mind that. They didn't seem to more than friendly colleagues' efforts. They're just using a lot of different words that are like, well, you know what's funny though? Kind of critical. When they wrote about me, they reminded me and the audience that some people over the years and throughout my life have viewed me at times as condescending. Oh. Fair. Working on it, obviously always trying to be like, self-aware of myself. But I also find it funny because when I read these pieces even about myself or my peers, the people who watch or listen, it's like I've never read anything about myself

that didn't felt condescending towards me, which is always like, you know, you like them, but you hate them. It's just like. Yeah, well, it's also, you're reading it from a writer who's, you know, trying to bring in multiple different aspects about like a person and has an angle, not in like a good or bad way. It's just like the. They're being interviewed by our more traditional journalists. They're having this kind of journalistic approach where it's just like trying to figure us out. It's David Attenborough. Not necessarily wanting to give us the benefit of the doubt, but kind of reluctantly doing it.

So it's like, yeah, reading that stuff about Nick, it's like there's always like a dig with every compliment sometimes. But again, listen, we're not quite there yet. It's still a process. We are still working to be accepted. I think it's the cheekiness is the way to play. I think he was caught off hard, like, oh, that's the way you wrote it, okay? Yeah, I... You're like, okay, I guess, like, sure.

I wonder what you guys... What you guys think about this, because I feel like the beauty of reality TV stars kind of entering into mainstream pop culture in this way, is that with a lot of celebrities, there is this aspect of everything needs to be taken seriously, everything is very, like, pristine, prestige. and then with which is kind of like the high low art whatever like it's this high art but then like the reality is it's all the same and it's all entertainment and so and fun stuff is fun stuff so when you get reality tv stars in here there's this kind of like cheekiness to everything because it's this self-aware aspect of the way you're writing and it's like we know this is typically your whatever trash

TV quote unquote but it's awesome and people love it and these people are very talented at what they do So it creates this like interesting kind of. Yeah, we have a long way to go. Because again, like the way influencers and Rihanna TV stars are recognized is again through that vulnerability. And like through that vulnerability, I think fans see that it is like an open door to critique, criticize judge. And which is interesting because I think you're more traditional celebrities.

Like for example, we have Jay Ellis on the show that was on yesterday. A fascinating guy. Very talented actor. He's in on Running Point. He's a lot of great stuff. It's all her fault. Top Gun 2. and you know

Jay coming in here again like sometimes when we have someone like Jay on it's always like man I wonder how much he wants to open up does he just want to talk about the his project you know and it's always like I'm always like unsure but I do think people like Jay or other more traditional celebrities are now

seeing that like for people to kind of get to know you and follow your career you do you know the you have to open up you have to like talk about like you have to endear yourself like the Paris To the audience, because that parasycial relationship matters more than it did like 20 years ago. You could be an actor, a celebrity. You could show up, do your press tours in between your movie that you do once or twice a year.

They would only see that. They'd only see these clips. And you would only just be that mystery. And that is very difficult, I think, in the grand scheme of things for most celebrities to be recognized. And now what does celebrity mean? Everything is niche, you know, and things like that. So you're now seeing a lot of more traditional. celebrities try to, when they're doing press,

like be willing to open up, doing more podcasts, or talking about things in their lives, their concerns, parenthood, you know, insecurities and things like that. So it's all kind of fascinating the way it is all coming together. Going back to the Met Gala, I read that there's like obviously so many rules.

And like we've known that there's no phones allowed for some time. Obviously there's like the iconic bathroom photos. But there's also they don't seat you with your partner. Yeah. because they want to like encourage new conversations, new connections, kind of. You know? You know, they also, you know, sharing the piece. Yeah, peace.

Yeah. Say hi, hi, your neighbor. Peace be with you. Peace be with you. I haven't been in church in a minute. They also don't serve with their food. They don't serve garlic or onion. Obviously, they don't want anyone to have bad breath.

They also don't put any small herbs. or green onion because they don't want anyone to get anything in their teeth. Guessing they don't serve Oreos either. Is this all confirmed? I'm not denying you. Are these rumors? I don't know. This wasn't like some blogger at posted.

It was like an actual, I don't remember. I believe it. I'm just intrigued by those. Yeah, and then it was like, obviously there's no smoking. There's like this iconic photo of. Well, there's a smoking section. That's why I. Maybe Bella Hadid or something.

I don't know. Someone like smoking in the bathroom and like everyone's sitting around them. You get like the smallest amount of time with animals. Win Tor and every guest gets it and it's at the top of the stairs. She like greets everyone. And that's like your one moment with Anna Wintor. Is she still doing that? Yeah.

I think so. She interestingly wore the same, basically the same dress different color that she wore. She's always done that though. Anna doesn't come in the dress code like super. I feel like neither does anyone. I love that. You love that? This is her whole, what do you mean?

She's not even going to participate. But she's not the... It's very much like, I'm not like you guys. You know what I mean? She's the stylist. It's like dance monkey dance. I'm going to make you wear some weird shit, but I'm just going to look chic as fuck. She does participate, but yeah, it's not to the same level of like...

You know who was at the MacGala? Who? Blake Lively. She was. I was honestly surprised. I was surprised this year. Well, on the heels, on the same day that was announced a lot, you know, and we do have Emily D. Baker joining us momentarily to help.

us break down because what was also a downs yesterday is that there was to my big big surprise because I honestly thought this was going to go to court that Blake lively and Justin Bell don't only settled their case now I imagine like everyone out there everyone what does that mean I don't know I purposefully did not read one article I said you know what I'm going to hear it from the smartest person I know yes Emily D Baker what does it mean for a settlement it was Blake suing Justin I know they both sued each other but that his court case has dropped but we have Emily D. Baker momentarily to help us break this down. What does it all mean? But it is fascinating and interesting to see, like on that same day, it seems like Blake is ready

to move forward with her life. Get back out there. Put this all behind her. And I'm sure her critics will say one thing. Her supporters will say another. I am very curious about what we can take away from this settlement, if anything. And we do have Emily D. Baker joining us in just a moment. We also have Tom Sports with us following Emily Baker to catch up with him. We've got to at the Valley. He is now a member of the Valley cast and the season is kind of, it's getting, it's getting, it's getting going. We're getting somewhere. I am curious of his thoughts on the summer house of it all. He is adjacently connected, obviously being a figure of Scandival. But I honestly am more interested in like, kind of, again, that pariscial relationship. And when it comes to this stuff, you know,

knowing how TV shows are made, specifically Bravo, I always think there's like an element that we as fans are not privy to in terms of how much do these stars have to like keep their mouth shut about certain things in production that may or may not somehow lead to the decisions that are made in the sense that like we have sports on the valley kind of loosely flirting with michel mhm a little bit more than loosely his friend jessie lally his ex-wife kind of giving kind of summer house coated but like honest jesse doesn't seem to mind but also like would this happen organically or is it happening because they're all part of the same cast and like like in high school you roam in these small groups and then like because of the proximity it's like well i mean you're here and you're single and i guess i know even though you're

you were married to my friend and i'm just curious how much if anything that that sometimes lead to these decisions in these conflicts and drama that we're getting from the summer house scandal so i'm looking forward to catch up with tom anyways emily d baker is ready she's ready to go she uh she's here so let's get to emily baker before we get to emily d baker just want to remind you that file files plus is ad free all All your favorite Vibefiles episodes are ad-free on VialFiles Plus. Plus you get additional bonus content like our Reality Recap Deep Dyes, where we dive deep into all the topics on your favorite reality TV shows

and trending topics going on in the world of reality TV, plus your pop culture roundup where we get into all your favorite pop culture topics and some just kind of random messy topics. Also your update special where we get your favorite updates and all your favorite ass Nick Callers. So if you need a little bit more VialFiles in your life, go to VowFiles.com to sign up for Vivalfiles. plus you'd be glad that you did. Well,

we were driving home from the doctor's office today, and Natalie reminded me that this Sunday is Mother's Day. And I said, oh, shoot. No, he said, really? Really? This Sunday. This one coming up. And if you're like me and you probably are and you got a mother in your life,

whether it's your lovely wife, your mom, your godmother, your neighbor who's Mother Lee. For all the moms out there, don't forget that Mother's Day is this. weekend. And if you have not thought of the mothers in your life, well, then we have a gift for you. It's 1,800 flowers. Flowers are the number one gift to give Mother's Day. And 1,800 flowers is helping people deliver those last minute gifts directly to the people that you love. And right now, when you order one dozen roses from 1,800 flowers, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen for free. Twice the flowers for the mom who gives everything for more than 50 years. 1,800 flowers has perfected

the details that matter most. Every bouquet is picked at peak freshness, carefully packaged, and backed by a freshness guarantee so you're not receiving some wilted flowers at your doorstep. 1-800 Flowers knows many of us procrastinate, and they've been saving their customers with same-day delivery for years. Even if May 9th snuck up on you, they can still make May 10th count. Mother's Day is this Sunday, May 10th, and bouquets are selling out fast. Trust me, don't wait to claim your double roses offer before they're gone. Visit 1-800flowers.com IA-L. That's 1-800flowers.com slash V-I-A-L.

One more time, 1-800flowers.com slash V-I-A-L-L. This one's for all my TV lovers. My Entertainment from DirecTV gets you 60-plus channels and Disney Plus Hulu and HBO Max, all in one pack. But here's the thing with so much great TV in My Entertainment, you're going to want to talk about everything you've been watching. Just remember that your friends might not be as well-watched as you.

Don't be a spoiler. And encourage them to get My Entertainment for, just 3499 a month. Go to directTV.com slash genre packs and sign up today. New customers only service renews monthly unless canceled. Credit card required conditions applied to all apps. HBO, Max, basics, and ads begin after DirectTV five-day trial. Learn more at directTV.com.

Restrictions apply. There's something about spring that just screams, refresh, restart, and trying something new. And if you have ever thought about learning a new language, you need to check out Rosetta Stone. Learning a new language can be such a great fun hobby at any stage in life. And even if it's just maybe you've got some travel plans coming up and maybe you're going to a new place where they don't speak the language that you speak, your experience traveling is always enhanced by just knowing a few key phrases with the country you're going to. It just makes that experience so much fun, more enjoyable. And you can do that with Rosetta Stone. With 30 years of experience, millions of users in 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German, Japanese, and more.

Stone is the go-to tool for real language growth. You can learn faster, retain longer. Rosetta Stone immerses you in your new language naturally helping you think and communicate with confidence. They don't have English translations, so you really, truly learn to speak, listen, and think in your chosen language. An intuitive learning process, you start with words, you build the phrases, and you progress to full sentences, and it's designed for long-term retention, so what you learn sticks with you. They also are making you sound more natural with their true accent. It gives you real-time feedback on pronunciation, like having a personal coach. So you can learn anytime, anywhere.

Rosetta Stone fits in your lifestyle with flexible on-the-go learning, whether you have five minutes or an hour knock-out a new language with Rosetta Stone. Ready to start learning a new language this spring. Visit Rosettastone.com slash V-I-A-L today to explore Rosetta Stone and choose the language. That's right for you. Go to Rosettastone.com slash V-I-A-L now and begin your language learning journey. Emily, welcome the show. Welcome back.

Welcome back back. It's so good to see how lots of law been going on lately. I know. It's great to be here. Lots of law going on and we very much appreciate you being our, we'll call you our unofficial legal correspondent, but maybe we can call you our official. We'll make it official one of these days.

We are so appreciative of you and what you do, Emily, and it's so our audience loves you. It's always fascinating and interesting to get your legal perspective as someone is also just a fan of the same things that we're a fan of. But as we talked about before you joined the show, So Justin and Blake lively, I don't know if they announced it, but it was announced that they had settled. Just right before their court case was scheduled to go to the court, I think, in May. So we were kind of, it seemed like just a few weeks away.

It was that old saying that deadline spur action. It seems like maybe that played a role in this as well. I think a lot of people were surprised on both sides, myself included. I really thought this would go to court. I felt like Blake seemed determined to really see this thing through. but to maybe everyone's surprised they had decided to settle. And I, you know, I think now a lot of people who have followed this case almost feel a little like, I hate to say disappointed because they had followed it so much.

And when it comes to a settlement, it's like, hey, we settled. It's over. And then it's like, well, what did you settle on? What does that mean? Did someone win? Did someone not win? I feel like everyone's claiming victory, you know, depending on what side they kind of fell on. But could you give us a little insight into what this all means in?

from a legal standpoint, and what can we take or learn, if anything, from this announcement of their settlement? I love a good what, if anything. It's difficult with settlements because it does feel like everything comes to a screeching halt because we're not behind the scenes. We don't see how much the lawyers are discussing, negotiating. We don't know how long they've been talking. But we do know that when Judge Lyman posted his 100 and almost 50-page order on the motions for

summary judgment, it did give. everyone an off-ramp. He didn't hold back on how he saw the evidence and how he saw the case, and it gives the lawyer's new footing to go talk to the parties and say, look, this is what we're actually looking at for trial. And candidly, the conversation of how much that will actually cost, which is going to be possibly tens of millions of dollars total. So not only are you looking at what's going to come out at trial realistically now that they know what the shape of the evidence is, but they know how much it's going to cost, and that can bring people to the table and give them an off-ramp in a different way. And then it

probably took quite a lot of legal wrangling back and forth with the lawyers to get a joint statement out because these parties have been so at odds for so long, trying to put out any type of agreed statement with the lawyers is a really difficult and deeply negotiated thing. Because we're probably not going to hear any more about this case from any of the parties, from any official sources from the lawyers because that settlement agreement's going to have NDAs, and those NDAs are going to have monetary amounts if they're violated. If it's violated, that money damages, that money amount just snaps right into place. But they haven't filed notice of settlement with the court yet. So if the judge woke up this morning and is like, I hear we don't have a trial,

where is the filing on the docket? It's not on the docket yet. I expect we'll see that sometime today, it's still not there and other things were filed yesterday, Monday, May 4th. So I'm waiting to see the official notice of settlement. I'm waiting to see how long they ask for. Sometimes parties need time to get the terms of the settlement executed. That can be exchanging money, that can be exchanging documents, that can be all kinds of things. But if they don't need that period of time, it might mean that this is just a mutual walkaway where everybody says, I will not sue you over anything. I will not continue to sue you over anything. We're all going our own directions. This is the mutual statement. Done, done, done. So there's a world where the settlement means almost like everyone

just like agreed to just say, you know what, just kidding. Yes. That's wild. I don't feel like, there is a world where everybody just put it, said, we're not going to sue you anymore. We're not going to resume suing you. Everything that happened, no one's going to sue anymore over anything. We're never going to talk about it again, you know, keep your name out of my mouth and walk away. That's possible. Is it also? And then, then what are the other possibilities, I guess? Like, my non-legal sense is more like, I was on the impression, okay, so like, it was Blake suing Justin. Justin was suing Blake in the past, but that was dismissed. So his case against her was thrown out or whatever. Yeah. So, and then part of her case was also dismissed, but she's still,

which I always consider the most important part of this case was the retaliation. That was the thing I was most fascinated by because of someone who, you know, in a way, operates in the space, like the way you're seeing bots and the way discourse seems to be influenced online, I feel like this is a real thing. It's a dangerous thing that involves everything. And I was really fascinated by that. Is there a world where Justin's side did agree to pay Blake's side a certain amount of money because they thought, okay, well, you know what, this will cost us less in the long run and we'll just agree. Is there any, and is there also any world where Blake did have to pay Justin some money? There is a world where money could have exchanged hands. I don't know if

either party would have been amenable to that with how negotiated this settlement agreement is, but there's a world where that happened, because at the end of the day, Blake lively, had to stop her lawsuit. She has to file the motion to dismiss. His has already been dismissed. Though I guarantee you in a settlement, they're going to agree that he, the PR company,

and his companies aren't going to bring any further lawsuits against Blake lively, any of her companies, and probably Ryan Reynolds as well, since he had originally been sued by Baldoni and those parties. And the decision maker in this is

wayfarer. And yes, Baldoni is a part owner of Wayfairor, but that company was the only defendant left in addition to the PR. So Baldoni had already really been removed from the suit as an individual given the way that the court ruled on the motion for summary judgment.

So Wayfair had to make those agreements to walk away. So technically it would be, yes, the company Wayfair could have paid lively. Yes, lively could have paid the company, though more unusual for the party's suit. to pay to settle once they're in litigation because the massive benefit from the party suing is withdrawing that lawsuit and not going to trial. Then again, defendants also have to agree to settle. But one of the interesting parts of that could be whether or not Wayfarer was operating

partly through their insurance because insurance companies can have a lot of very strong opinions about whether something's going to trial or not and whether a settlement agreement will be accepted. So if the company's operating through some of their, you know, errors and emissions or liability insurance, insurance could have also had a hand in encouraging the company to settle once, of course, the plaintiff, lively, was willing to also settle. So if I'm, I want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. So let's say they had the evidence, you know, that was kind of laid out, like you said, and no doubt, Wayfarer and they all have insurance. And assuming Wayfarer's insurance provider was like, yo, we think, you know, based

of what we're coming up with, you're at risk of owing this much, which sounds like it's going to, we're going to have to write that check to a certain amount. So could the insurance company encourage Justin to settle and say, we'll pay you this much. So go ahead and settle this case. And if you want to just have us

handle it, because maybe the insurance company is thinking this will save us money and then encouraging Justin to, and his team in Wayfar or whatever, to settle because, you know, they're letting them know what their limits are, so to speak. Could. Could absolutely be involved in that decision-making process if they are also covering part of the cost of the litigation. So, yeah, insurance companies, if you think of it in context of a car accident, like litigation, and your car insurance is like, okay, well, we'll pay for this, but we also can make the agreement to settle this.

It's not dissimilar. It's just a much larger scale where insurance can be involved in those decisions. I don't know if that happened here because we've seen privately retained counsel clearly, but it is. is possible that that is one of the other things running in the background that's not really largely being accounted for in the conversation, is that right now the last defendant standing are companies, and those companies are going to have insurance companies looking at them going, this is a good settlement offer, figure out whatever the joint statement is, and we're going to be done.

And honestly, a lot of people, I'm sure, are going to wonder, why did we have to get up to the eve of trial, like jurors were coming in next week for jury selection? because we don't know what evidence is actually going to trial until those last evidentiary rulings happened. Once all those rulings happen, you now can look at the case and be like, this is what a jury is going to see, and then you can really make a fair assessment of who's at risk and where, and all parties had risk of exposure here. I know not everybody's going to agree with that. You never know what's going to happen at jury trial. All parties have risk of exposure.

and they're going forward on the retaliation claim. And that is contractually based, which means it could be that a jury looks at the contract and said, you agreed not to retaliate. We've got this text saying we can bury anyone. And there's going to be some jurors being like, yeah, that looks like retaliation to me. So you have a case based on a contract dispute,

going to the jury. And then because it's on retaliation, all of the text messages behind the scenes are all going to come up and the question is really focused on, did they retaliate against Blake lively in any way violating their agreement to not do so? And it's civil. Jurors don't have to be unanimous.

So there's a lot of risk there for all parties. This is kind of surprising to me because I just, I don't feel like it was ever about money. Like I don't, you know, like I don't feel like that's what. For Blake side of thing? For Blake's side. Like Blake wanted money from Wayfair, from Justin to feel. like she, you know, had one or what, like, I feel like in the settlement, there's got to be

some sort of admit of, like, wrongdoing for, it just doesn't make sense to me that Blake would, that it would just be like money motivated. I agree with you. Right? Isn't that weird? Well, I agree that it wasn't money motivated. I think, though, the decision can be money motivated because looking at filing a lawsuit and looking at how much money you're laying out for trial are two very different things. So going to trial and spending the millions and millions and millions for trial is going to be a part of that consideration. But also, I always think discovery was a huge part of this case, knowing what was going on behind the scenes is a big part of that. And that part of the case has been completed. And I don't think we're going to see any other admissions other than what's in the joint

statement and the joint statement did indicate you know we all agree that Blake brought claims that deserved to be heard i think that's about as much of an acknowledgement as we're going to see and then the end of that statement asking for things going forward on social media to be more peaceful you know i talked to you offline a while back talking about this case emily and you said something you talked about plaintiff fatigue i think was the term you used or something to that effect. That was really interesting and I'd love for you to shed more light on it, but like you were just, you know, just the, the emotional toll, the psychological toll, these court cases take on everyone. And, you know, again, depending on where you land on this thing, it, you know, it seems like a lot of defendants in these types of sexual harassment cases or things like that that the defendants can be ultra aggressive in their defense in and attacking the character of the plaintiff and things like that. And I think, sometimes correct me if I'm wrong, what you were basically telling me is that like it's one thing to like start a case and obviously feel like you really have the facts in your favor and then you

move forward and then things kind of snowball and fans get involved and all of a sudden a year later it just becomes a toll on your overall well-being, your mental health, your family and things like that. And it sounds like you're basically saying like these plaintiffs and maybe it's part of a strategy of the defense to kind of wear them down to a point where the reason they chose to fight it, you know, and maybe it wasn't money motivated. Maybe the calculus changes for the plaintiffs where they take a step back and say, all right, like, I had my heels dug in, I was ready to fight, but maybe it's not worth it. I don't know. Is it something like that where that often plays a role in these types of cases?

I mean, in any civil litigation, lawyers will try to explain exactly what it's going to be like. but there are some things you can't understand all the cost to yourself that it's going to take until you are walking through it and oftentimes until after deposition, because your lawyers are going to look at you at the end of a six or eight hour deposition and be like, okay, now we're going to do that for four days while you're on the stand in front of a jury and you cannot lose your temper and you cannot snap at the lawyer. And that is the lawyer that's going to cross-examine you. And now you know what that feels like.

Now you know what the evidence looks like. Now you know what they're going to say. And if they convince enough jurors, then where do we cut our losses? And that's for both sides, because both sides have to be willing to settle. The defense can say we're not settling. You brought us all the way here. We're going to keep going. And the plaintiff can do the same.

But at some point, the feeling shifts from, yes, I'm going forward to this with this lawsuit, to the reality of living with going to trial is very different after you've done depositions. And plaintiffs do become fatigued. And we see that in all different types of cases where defense delay becomes part of the strategy. I don't think we've seen that here. I think the defense has pushed this case forward

pretty quickly to their credit. But yes, of course the defense is going to be aggressive. They feel that they've been dragged into court wrongly and they're going to let everyone know it. but it's not comfortable being cross-examined in court, and you never know what 12 jurors or eight jurors are going to do. So once you've experienced that and lived with the, like, lawyer bills coming to your house every month, the fatigue of a thing can also help with settlement.

But also, I really think that summary judgment ruling gave an off-ramp because the judge pointed out the strengths and weaknesses of, both cases, and it gave everyone somewhere to come to the table and have a conversation about where you're exposed. And then you just have to have really a very strategic conversation of best case, worst case. And not all clients can hear that early on in a case because it's going to be different for them. And their case is different than every other case. And they don't know yet. But once you've been through litigation, a lot of people are like, I'm just, if we can just walk away from this, I'm ready for it to stop.

And that very much might be where both parties are. And I'm sure everybody wants to walk away and be done. But a lot of the damage in this case has already been done. And we're going to keep seeing stuff get unsealed from court because we're that close to trial, that unsealed documents are coming up. And maybe everything will get sealed again as part of the settlement. We don't know yet because notice the settlement hasn't been filed. but it's damaging to have unsealed documents in court,

but it's far more damaging to have those people come in and testify day after day after day. Plus, look at the witnesses we're talking about. Sony executives, other celebrities, this ropes in a ton of other people, and that has to be part of the calculation too. Do you really want to bring in all of the Sony executives into court, in federal court in New York, and expose all of their emails to? at what point is it better to not have to bring all of those witnesses in? Yeah. One final question about this case, and then I want to get you, get into some of the Mormon wives stuff.

When you mentioned about like the gag order or just like the NDA that they all agree to, it feels like throughout this case, things have been leaked. you know, I don't know on both sides. Certainly I feel like on Justin's side, his team has, it's tentacles and a lot of online contributors, you know, that's just really my opinion. But I guess my question is, it's like, I feel like we live in a world where one person be like, I'm not going to say anything, you know, I'm going to honor my NDA, but they'll find a way to get information out through third parties. How does a court handle something like this where you never hear anything from Justin

or aside, you never hear anything from Blake? her side, but what if things do get out in the zeitgeist of the internet? Will they'll be, would these parties be held liable? And you know what I'm saying? Like, how could they police that or honor that if it's, if it's somehow all of a sudden like Pierce Morgan, I don't know, is on his show and he starts like, I got some tea about this case, you know, because he's been like, also like everyone, so many people are covering it. How does that look like if, you know, People start speaking out and saying they have some information. Well, one of the things that's hard with this case is that there are so many documents.

I'm sure there are things that have been filed on the public docket that people haven't unearthed yet, just because it's hundreds of thousands of pages of documents that have been unsealed. So people can continue to go and dig through those if they don't all get resealed, but they've already been out. So resealing it is kind of like trying to put the shit back in a horse. It's not going to work. So when you are looking at post-settlement, it's up to the lawyers. And you still have your lawyers on retainer, and the lawyers have to start to sort out

enforcement of that settlement agreement. And that can end up back in court in separate litigation for breach of the settlement agreement. But that becomes a new litigation on breach of the settlement agreement. And it can start things all over again. But I imagine that we won't see, like Brian Friedman, one of the the lawyers for the Wayfair parties has given a lot of interviews. I imagine we won't see many interviews regarding this. And if he's interviewed regarding other cases, because he's still the lawyer

in the Scandival lawsuit. He's one of the lawyers in that lawsuit. So if he's talking about other things and somebody asks about this, I imagine his statement is going to be, everyone reached a mutual settlement agreement. And we released a public statement. And I have no further comment. Yeah, it doesn't sound like we'll be seeing Justin about Tony, Blake lively or Ryan, or doing any sit-down interviews talking about this case any time soon or ever? Or ever, because those settlement agreements generally will be in perpetuity, which means no one can talk about it ever. And we already know that they've gone through lengths to dig up who's communicating with who, how they're communicating. There's tons of discovery in this case that will never see the

light of day. And the lawyers will continue to be mindful of that and then go and force those settlement agreements. Those things normally happen between lawyers and never get into a courtroom. But there are cases where settlement agreement and breach of settlement agreement does end up right back in court. But that breach of contract is a pretty easy case if it's one of the main parties. When it becomes the I have a source and then somebody's just talking, that can become a little more nuanced to dive into, but that's where you get into subpoenas and discovery and a whole new case. Seems like the lawyer's one. The lawyer's absolutely one. I said it at the beginning of this case. I'm like the lawyer. lawyers are going to win, everyone else is going to lose because it's so messy. So much has been

unearthed in this case. And there are things that are unflattering to all parties and many will have opinions on who it's more unflattering to. And that's fine. But there is unflattering things that come up in a lawsuit on all sides and both parties thought that they had more to lose or they wouldn't have settled. That uncertainty of a jury, it is better for all parties, I think, to be able to put down the lawyers and walk away. And though getting money from the other party might not have been the motive here, it's really real when you look at the actual cost of trial

with a jury coming in in a week. It just sometimes takes right up to the end for parties to go, you know what, you're right, it's time to walk away. Because I feel like when this all started, I feel like, I don't know, I don't think they ever thought it would go this far, you know, either of them.

You know, there was that New York Times piece that was released at the end of the year. And that almost felt like Blake's side kind of speaking her truth. And it seemed to be a far different narrative than what everyone thought. And then all these like lawsuits started happening. And then it became almost like a tit for tat, you know. And it kind of almost, I felt like it almost snowballed where as if they never really thought it would get this far anyways. But it just kind of kept going and going and they dug their heels in. And it sounds like maybe right before court, like I guess what cooler has,

has prevailed, I guess, I don't know, is the saying? I think one of the things I've been critical of in this lawsuit particularly was how overblown the filings got, especially in the beginning. The very first filing by Lively was a pretty standard federal court complaint. Then again, she already had the New York Times article that had a lot of her side of the story. So then when Baldoni's side comes in with their, side. It is not just a allegations complaint. It is screenshots, receipts, timelines. It is a very overwrought complaint with quite a lot of information in it. But I think strategically,

the lawyers aren't trying to impress one another. They are trying to get their side of the story out to the public as well. And I think very early on, the Wayfair lawyers took every opportunity in the filings to do that so that their side of the story was also getting pushed out very much through court documents and the judge had actually admonished them once or twice, I think, about that. But everybody has really aired almost everything before witnesses come into court. So I think both sides have had quite a lot of information out in the public that wouldn't otherwise be there. That would have been a tough jury to select. It would have been a tough jury to select, but you will always find people who are like, wait, what?

I've never heard that that's going on. But then again, that jury can skew a little bit older and the tolerance for what's going on online can shift as your jury shifts because you get a younger audience who's looking at some of the retaliation stuff and they're like, yeah, I just kind of figure that's what happens on social media. You get a slightly older audience and they're like, wait, people are doing what? Yeah. Are you kidding me? Yeah. That's wild. Are you calling me old?

Yeah. I'm old. I'm calling me old. But you get a jury pool that hasn't heard of this case. Some of the allegations in this case that are going forward might also be more shocking to them. Yeah. Fascinating, Emily. I really appreciate your perspective on this.

Switching gears a little bit and taking your lawyer hat off and putting on your pop culture fan hat on. We can't just even do pop culture. Norman wives because we've been in court so much on that case. Well, yeah, we're in court. But the big question now is, will mom talk survive? Over the weekend, TMZ released some audio from Jesse, which she has since addressed.

And then Dakota entered the chat. And then Dakota and then Taylor entered the chat. And it seemed now we're like almost kind of a la Justin and Blake, where it was this like, you know, we're getting outside of the courts and inside the court of public opinion, which they all seem to be trying to like, curry favor with the audience. Basically, to summarize the leak audio of Jesse was, was it Jesse talking to Dakota? And basically, it was just like, you know, when this all came out, it seemed like, you know,

like a lot of the women didn't really know how to like react to this video. It was we are unsure who saw this video. And I think we all can agree that like, however, you know, I don't care if you're Taylor, Taylor's mom, Taylor's friend, that this is, this was a very disturbing and difficult video to watch and it was sad and heartbreaking for everyone involved. I took it as that's kind of was Jesse's point of view, just wanting to see the video. And I think a lot of these women, when it first came out, were kind of scared and unsure how to speak on this. And that, it seemed like, was Jesse's motivation as part of this conversation, at least how

I took it. And then Dakota entered the chat and basically trying to accuse Jesse of kind of like being two-faced or you're not really having Taylor's back and kind of accusing Jesse of, like, changing tune now that, like, maybe public discourse has kind of shifted a little bit. Well, and this voice memo leaked after Taylor's lawyers said that, like, Jesse had a conversation where he was basically going to take the embarrassment into his own hands, Dakota, to, like, go after Taylor. So that's where this memo came out after the fact. Jesse's statement was something that the judge brought up in court that he was relying on based

on what she said in her affidavit that Dakota had done. So the court mentioned it twice, I believe, during that hearing that Jesse's statement to the court was something that he considered specifically in the things that Taylor brought forward with regard to trying to figure out the mutual protective orders. So it did play in court right before that audio came out through TMZ. The thing that I don't really understand from Dakota's point of view, it's just like he seems to still be trying to convince Jesse, the audience, everyone, that there was no strategy on his end, that this, that he is truly just a victim in all of this, and that he has nothing to do with these videos and the timing of which it was released was all some big coincidence. And I just don't see how anyone at this point, and this is just my opinion, how they can believe that.

We had you on not too long ago, Emily, talked about like, we know that Dakota is the owner of the IP of this video. It seems to be there's a roommate somehow is like the scapegoat of he seems to be the one selling it to TMZ. It's just like, well, he's your roommate. How is he involved in this? Like, well, how did he get the video? And it's almost as if like Dakota's trying to gaslight anyone in thinking that like he's just a helpless bystander and he can't control if his roommate like goes into his room and goes into his phone and steals a video and like is if we're supposed to believe that. And find a contact of TMZ. Well, what's interesting is before this audio came out, you had Jesse go on her stories and say like, hey, just got a phone call. There's going to be some audio that's released. It's a voice memo that I sent to Dakota. And this is what it is. I've already talked to Taylor about it. I think all of this is just proving that he clearly has a contact at TMZ. And he is clearly providing them with all of this information to try and make himself.

look better. Yeah. Which speaks to, again, this seems to be all about him trying to make himself look better and simultaneously make Taylor look bad.

And I just didn't get for the life of me how he thinks that we're buying this story. Didn't his lawyer say in court, he asked his publicist not to release the video.

His lawyer exactly said that. His lawyer said he gave the video to his publicist and asked them not to release him to release it. His lawyer was still trying to kind of dance around some of the things that the court wanted to hear about with Dakota. And I think Jesse probably should have been wary if she had seen

that he saved the voice memo when she sent it. Because on the iPhone, you would see if it saved unless he recorded it as like a screen recording when he played it. So it doesn't show that the voice memo is saved. But also, why are we doing that much then? Unless we're using it again. also that's kind of the point he's releasing this video of jesse and it's just like wait we're we're supposed to believe that you strategically kind of set her up and threw her under the bus but like you're not that type of guy who would do that in any other situation including your ex partner who you share a child with and it's just like well which one are you you know are you the it's like what which part of this are we supposed to believe also like if you asked your publicist not to release it then

they probably wouldn't have released it they are your publicist you've also shocked that he has a publicist. I think that was a large sentiment. Everybody went, wait, what? But also, I imagine most publicists, especially when we were dealing with a video of a domestic violence incident where children are present,

aren't going to play fast and loose with that. And even if the roommate sent it to TMZ, I can't imagine that legally they would put it out without having the copyright owner sign off on it. So at the end of the day, We know that Dakota had to sign off on that video becoming public on their child's birthday and the day he went to court. The timing is not coincidental.

And to Taylor, Frankie Paul, the lawyer and her credit, their strategy was take responsibility for the things you've done, give context around the other things. And Dakota's strategy was, she's the problem. I'm not the problem. She needs a restraining order, not me. And I don't think the court was very persuaded by that. But yes, this Jesse voice note coming out after the court relied on Jesse's affidavit is not a coincidence. And to that point, even if Jesse sent a voice note to Dakota, to Dakota's phone, in theory, Dakota's the owner of that voicemate note.

So even if his roommate stole it or got into his phone, to your point, TMZ would still want to get Dakota's approval and sign off for releasing that voice memo, even if it was the roommate who called up TMZ and said, hey, I got this voice memo. I mean, in theory, they could get Jesse's approval, but we don't think that's going to happen. So I can't see Jesse being like, oh, sure, that's super flattering for me. Let's go ahead and put it out there. Is their case done, Taylor and Dakota's?

Or are they still, like, in court? It's kind of done. So I have a question about what's going to happen with everybody reaching out to Jesse because if they're making statements about each other, publicly they both have a no contact order, which is not just don't be within 100, feet of each other. It's do not talk about the other one. No comments through third parties. So they both

now have mutual stayaway orders for three years. The parenting time part of the case is not done yet. And then they still have a child custody case that is not done yet. So there is more going on that is going to keep going through the court system. And there is a open CPS case that is wrapping up because they're both getting support and services and evaluations. So the parenting stuff's not done. But yeah, they both have three-year mutual protective orders. So there's no way they can film together. I don't know if she will want to go back to filming, but there's no way they can film together.

They probably can't be on the show together. Because in confessionals, you would have to talk about the other and they're not allowed to do that. Did you see Dakota posted like some TikTok, some video, and Leanne, Taylor's mom commented and said, I would just like to know who's watching ever. Boy. Yeah.

Which, I mean, I guess she's, He's allowed to, right? I mean, she doesn't have a no, she can. Not talking about Taylor. Yeah. But it's going to come up because they still have a custody case and they still have a argument over how much Taylor gets to see ever. Because remember, Taylor's still on only supervised parental time, which is limited hours

a day with a supervisor. And that right now is some family members. But he has 100% custody, which is a huge change, but she had had 70% custody up until he filed that temporary protective order on ever's birthday and then took 100% custody. Fascinating. Fascinating. You know, I think it's one thing that I think Dakota has failed to recognize.

And I think this is why, you know, we're obviously, again, we know that the video is disturbing. No one thinks it's anything other than terrible to see. But the reason why Taylor Frankie Paulus has the fans that she has throughout this time is that, like, she's always been honest. She's always taken accountability. She's always owned her part. Now, you can critique how she's done that. You can say that's not enough,

but she's always been willing to go there where it seems like Dakota's not, and he seems to have been caught in so many lies. And even now, it's just like he is publicly saying things that are quite frankly, easily disproven. And I think over time, that's going to continue to work against Dakota because Taylor seems to be comfortable with acknowledging the role she has played in this mess, like you said,

that seems to be her team strategy as to like not pretend that she has not done anything wrong, but offer that context where it's just like there is more to the story. And it just honestly seems a lot more believable than Dakota side of things. The court was very clear that no one is without blame in their relationship and had pretty strong words. words for both of them, almost in a both of you need to get it together and stop it. But he said that he found Dakota's behavior to be calculating. And he found Taylor to have absolutely no rain on her emotions. And it concerned the court that when she's provoked, it doesn't matter if her child is there, if her child's in Dakota's arms, that she does not snap out of

it when she's going after him, even if the kids are around. And he found Dakota's behavior or that he's picking up his phone and filming her after she is responding to be really concerning. That doesn't change that it's not okay to hit someone, but the court was like, you can't go hands on with people and you cannot lose control while your children are around, and he should not and cannot be pushing your buttons,

and when you get in a car driving away with the children in the home at night, you two both cannot do this. So I think everyone has to stay away from everyone, is going to be tough over the next three years. And then the thing that they have that most cases don't have is that the entire Internet is going to be scouring everything they do on social being like, does that violate the protective order? Did you just violate the protective order?

Hey, I think they violated the protective order. The amount of emails their lawyers are going to get with tips from the Internet is going to be persistent, I would imagine. Wow. So will mom talk? I mean, hopefully dad talk doesn't. That's just where I'm at. I hope Dad Talk doesn't survive it.

It just seems not to be. It's just like they're not likable. I do think Mom Talks survive it. We'll obviously keep discussing it. Nick, can I ask you one-party question as we go? Yes. Did you see in court that they talked about the lip tattoo? I did, yeah.

And he claimed that it was for... Did you know that that happened when they were filming? No. So it's on camera? Apparently. Okay, this is what I wanted to ask you about because you had asked me about the lip tattoo last time, and I was like, I haven't even heard of this.

They bring up the lip tattoo in court, and Dakota's lawyer gets up there and says, Your Honor, it's not weird that he's getting her initials tattooed in his lip because all of the dads went to a tattoo parlor with the camera crew because they were filming. Oh, my God. So apparently that's part of season five. I guess.

It's crazy. Well, the question is, will they air that, you know? Because, like, can they air that? Will they air that? It's kind of case and point to the whole situation we're in. Yeah, I also don't know if at this point I need to see

all of Dad talk going to get their lips tatted so they can be more talk. I also don't know. I'm curious how the courts would see that, but I again, this isn't scripted. This is reality TV and I understand some things

that, you know, they're doing scenes, but it's reality TV. People are in charge of their own decisions. No one made anyone get a tattoo and no one made to get a certain tattoo or the placement of the tattoo and things like that, I feel like that would be a really bad defense,

but I don't know how the court could see it. I thought it was interesting that the defense was, but Your Honor, they were filming, and I want to know whose idea it was to go to the tattoo parlors because was it Jordans, and why do I need to know that immediately? 100% of Jordan. Almost certainly Jordans. 100%.

He seems to be the producer of Dad Talk. Not a very good one, but he does seem to be one. Emily, thanks so much for your time. We appreciate you. It's always fun talking with you. We'll have to, again, always have you back, not just to talk legal, but to get into all your pop culture takes because that's what we love about you, Emily. You're not only just an expert, you're also a fan.

Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. Good to see you. Thanks, Emily. Bye. Bye. The easiest decision for me, the second I find out that I am pregnant is which prenatal I'm going to take. And it is and always has been ritual.

I've taken ritual for years. I have taken their multivitamin. I've taken their prenatal. I've taken their postnatal. I have taken every single thing that ritual offers, and all of them are so good. They're all backed by science. Ritual is the number one best-selling prenatal. They have the only leading prenatal backed by its own human clinical trial.

Essential prenatal was clinically proven to deliver key nutrients, including folate biotin and vitamin D. Mom's taking ritual had a lower overall cortisol level during pregnancy than those taking a leading prenatal. I definitely remember how sick I was in the first trimester and how I'm just not even able to smell anything or take anything and I was so worried I wouldn't be able to take my prenatals. But with ritual, they essence them in citrus and mint so it doesn't smell weird. It doesn't taste bad. I love the citrus one because I'm just a citrus girly. They also designed to be easier to swallow, gentler on the stomach and a better overall positive experience than those taking a leading prenatal. Their patented capsule is designed to dissolve in the small intestines, which is an optimal

place to absorb nutrients. So do not settle for less than evidence-based support. Save 25% on your first month at ritual.com slash v i a l that's ritual.com slash v i a l for 25% off your first month. This podcast is sponsored by Broto. Brodo's bone broth is the simplest nutrition upgrade. You can make to your daily routine. Their broth are made from scratch, no concentrates, preservatives, or shortcuts, so you get the best broth money can buy. If your morning coffee isn't cutting it lately, start your day with something amazing. Our next sponsor makes bone broth that hydrates, nourishes, and wakes you up without spiking your nerves or blood sugar. If you hit that mid-afternoon energy crash, you know the routine,

another coffee or a snack that maybe just doesn't help. Well, you don't need that. Maybe you need a better option in your life and that better option is Broto. It's perfect for the morning drink and to get your day going. It's an amazing mid-afternoon snack. Nali often uses bone broth when she's making River Macaroni and cheese. It has great nutrients for you and your kids. Brodo was launched by James Beard award-winning chef Marco Canara, a 11 years ago, he started serving bone broth out of a window in his New York City restaurant. Now Broto ships nationwide so you don't have to be in New York City to enjoy Chef Marco's masterpiece. They have about 10 grams of whole food protein along with collagen, building amino acids,

electrolytes, and nutrients to support gut health, immunity, joints, skin, and general wellness, all under 50 calories and with zero sugar or fat. Shop the best broth on the planet with Brodo. Head to brodo.com slash V-I-A-L for 20% off your first subscription order and use code V-I-A-L for an additional $10 off once again. That's Broto.com slash V-I-A-L for 20% off your first subscription order and an additional $10 off if you use our promo code V-I-A-L. Always fascinating stuff from Emily Baker.

Since, honestly, since she left, there's more and more information has come out. Also, it's funny because when we asked her about like the gag order or the NDA, where TMZ has since reported that like no money was exchanged. I don't know how they can figure that out that quickly. And if also like how does that come from anywhere other than the people involved? I imagine we're going to see more and more opinions, hot takes. My opinion hasn't changed. I don't know.

I forgot to ask Emily this, but I wonder if like with the settlement part of it was just the realization that everyone, like with public opinion in the court of public opinion, everyone's just kind of like, we're still. At least that's how I, like when I. see headlines about it now, I'm like, oh my God, we're still doing this. I think that's a lot. And it's like, like fatigue, again, your friends get involved. It just, I, it's just like, it's someone who's never really been involved in something like this. You know, you just hear stories. I think it's, I think it consumes your whole life. And, and, um, at some point, you have to make

some very tough decisions on what's best big picture and long term. Uh, I just, you know, I worry that it's just more of the same of someone trying to stand up for something and then quickly realizes how the world fights against that. Yeah. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know. We also have Tom Schwartz coming up momentarily, and that's a very fun conversation. He has some stuff to say about Summer House.

He actually hung out with Kyle and Carl. He did. Recently and had some interesting perspective. Plus talking about obviously his time in the valley, his new love and his life. He's in love. Truly. I mean, you can see it on them. Glowing.

You can even hear in his voice if you're listening to the show. But before we do, Mom Talk is trying to survive. Witten recently announced that she is not coming back. Today she clarified that she will be finishing filming

in season five when cameras pick back up if they haven't already. To confirm, it seems like who do we still have left in Mom Talk? Macy, Michaela, Layla, Miranda, and Jesse. And Jesse. Yeah.

And then I'm going to go ahead and say Taylor Frankie Ball. Yeah. I think as long as Taylor is a part of the show, Mom Talk survives. Yeah, but the question is if she's not or even if she just kind of takes a little breather break. Do you think they bring in kind of housewife-esque, could you think they bring in new? moms into the mix. I hope maybe she's I don't know.

I mean they already have done that. That's Miranda technically. Yeah, but Miranda was in the OG. She was part of the original lore. Shania was kind of a part of stuff. But I don't. It's my impression that before the show started

that when you talk about mom talk, mom talk wasn't limited to these few women. No, they told us it was like 50s or like a ton of them, yeah. So it seems like they would have a pretty deep roster. But I mean, remember the backlash Miranda got for joining, it was like, oh, you just want to like. I mean, sure.

But I wonder if that's going to be every single, you know, that doesn't happen for new housewives, right? New housewives, it's just like, oh, part of it. You know, you get a new season. You're going on TV to be a housewife, but with Mormon wives would be like, oh, you're just doing this to, you know, be famous for the plow. And it's like, yeah.

Yeah. It's by your job. My guess is is that if you were to talk to any new housewife, they probably hear that and feel that more than maybe we see it out there. Yeah, I guess. I think everyone's always resistant to change. I mean, you know, every time I bring a new voice on the show, it's like, who the fuck is this person?

Yeah. There's a little bit of like audience hazing. Really? Really? I do think mom talk can survive without Taylor Brink. you Paul, though. Like, I think Jesse Draper, Miranda, Michaela, all of them, Layla have, like, transcended. And, like, their followings are in the millions. Like, they pull in views consistently on their content. I don't, I don't disagree with that. I just think it would be...

Even, like, Macy alone, like her sister. It would be a big cloud to, like, really break through, you know? And it's just... I think Taylor just has such a deep impact on this show and this group of women that I don't think... I think they have the talent. And I think there's an interest. And certainly Jesse is giving... but you know the same way we talk about like the valley where it's just like you know no one's sad to see jacks go and yet i still think we're feeling the effects of him not being on the show but with that i am like i could barely get through the valley last season like it was so hard to watch it was making me like physically sick to my stomach to watch and this season

isn't the most like dramatic exciting thing in the world like like I'm not like waiting on the edge of my seat to see what's going to go down in the valley every week. But also I, like, my body feels okay watching it. And I think that matters a lot. I think shows need their healing periods. Yeah. Like storyline-wise specifically.

Healing journeys are important if we've learned anything from Whitney Rose. I hope if Taylor comes back, it'll be interesting what her storyline will be because her storyline has been so wrapped up. It's going to be recovering. from all of this. It's going to be her friendships. Hey guys, were you there for me?

Were you not there for me? Thank you for being there for me. It's going to be the mending of the mom-talk friendships. It's going to be- I'm down to see it too. I just hope for her sake and for everyone else's sake that it doesn't complicate an already complicated situation by having it on camera for TV.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I do hope that if she's back, they have her best interest in mine. Yeah. Long-term. And I would say that for every. single person on Mormon wives. I think after this, I'm just a little like,

I just want to make sure all these girls are okay. You know? All right. Well, more will be revealed. I still think we're going to get the Taylor-Frankie Paul Basharat season. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think people are assuming at this point. Yeah.

It would be more of a money loss for them not to... I think everyone's just ready to see it. Anyways, we have Tom Sports coming up next. And you won't be disappointed. I like rocking the headphones. Is that cool? Yeah, I rock them. Hey, guys.

feels like a podcast. Yeah. What's up? Yeah. What's up, gang? I just whispered the entire podcast and didn't listen to ASMR. I like ASMR, yeah. Yeah.

SMR was so hot for a while there. Was, it was really trendy. Yeah. Yeah. Is it not anymore? Me? I don't know. I think people may have gotten a little uncomfortable with it.

Over saturated. Yeah. It did. Too much of a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. It got so quiet. Welcome back, Tom Swartz.

Hi, guys. Tom Schwartz. How are you? Very happy, familiar. faces. I missed you guys. We missed you. Mama. I know. I'm so happy for you. Tom brought Nally flowers. He did. He brought me flowers. They're sitting right there. We should have brought him on set. But how nice is that? Thanks for having me back, you guys. Wait, Nick, did Lori predict you were going to have twins like eight months, eight years ago? She, she, but she told me she was going to have two boys. Oh, that's right.

Which I told her yesterday. I was like, you know, very happy about the girls, but what the fuck? I'm so happy for you guys. One time my mom was in South Florida. And at that point, point she had no kids and she went and got a palm reading. Did we talk about this last time? I don't know. But she predicted. She said you're going to have, oh no, she had my sister. She said you're going to have one more boy and then you're going to have triplet boys and that's exactly what happened. Your mom had triplets? Yeah. Yeah. Billy Burton Brandon. Shout out to the triplets. Billy Burton. Triplis as well because I feel like twins is someone who's about to be a father or twins. It still feels like sci-fi. Yeah. You know, like it's like a. Triplets is like a.

next level. But triplets, that is, my mom was like this to you guys. She's a little stick. She's so petite and small. And how did she do it? She got a C-section. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But how did she like survive? She's like, I don't need to walk into the staff. More like emotionally. Yeah. But how did she like survive triplets and having two other kids? She's just a champion. She's such a rock and an amazing human being. And she's just the best mom. I know everyone thinks their mom's best mom. But really, really, she's just an amazing human being. I don't know. She's so resilient. Did you ever

have like FOMO with the triplets where you ever like, oh, wow, you're really, you guys are leaving me out? It is a magical thing because they have an unspoken language, like an ESP type of thing. This is very common with twins and triplets, right? And they're fraternal, right? You can't have identical triplets, can you?

Is that a dumb question? I think technically they're identical, although they don't look identical anymore. Oh, interesting. They look very different. Although they're starting to look a lot alike again. Are they just like dyeing their hair different colors? It's so weird that they just turned 40. My brothers, I just, I'll always think of them as like 15.

It's crazy. Yeah. Man, I'm so happy for you guys. And you were just in Florida taking care of mom. Yeah, I was just in Florida taking care of mom. Love Florida. Man, if there's any void in my life, I think we talk about that a lot in this season. It's not having kids.

I never thought I would be in my 40s not having kids. I don't even have the white picket fence How old are? Uh, 43. There's still time. I know, it's scary. That's like, I mean, we talk about that this season on the Valley. It's like, I'm completely restarting my life over.

My whole old life is gone. Like Tom Tompom's for sale, Schwartz and Sanchez is closed. I'm not going to be a bootleg Lisa Vanderpump, which was the goal. You know, we had the liquor line, like, things like, I was charting in a certain direction. I was like, this is going to be my life now, and that's just gone. Do you feel good about that or feel? like sad about that. What's that saying?

I think I would have I could have been happy. It's man, it's such a brutal business. Have you ever invested in a bar or anything? No, it's never for me. It's a meat grinder of a business and it's really hard on your personal life. You inevitably drink more than you want to drink.

By the way, I'm not whining or complaining. I chose to do this. And I always, it was a dream of mine so I have a bar in Los Angeles. But it chewed me up and it spit me out. You guys know most of that story. yet. You don't have to.

They really did cheer you up and spit you up. We were chatting before and like I never turned so introverted in my entire life. I turned into a hermit. And that's one of the reasons I started the podcast and I've been hosting more events and stuff, live events, like just coming back out of my shell, getting. Do some color. And was that partly because, you know, just like the online discourse or the criticism or just like the weight of the audience of which you've.

been so connected with over the years, it just, did it get too much almost? Yeah, it did. And like, well, my favorite part about it was the sense of community. Does that sound like a kiss-ass? I love, like, I love being in there and meeting people from all walks of life and hearing about their stories. Like, oh my God, Vanderpump Rules helped me get through like some of the darkest moments of my life, cancer, stuff like that. Like, man, we had such a rich community. And even the neighborhood is like really supporting us towards the end over in Franklin Village. But yeah, man, it just, I lost so much money and time and energy. Like, I put everything I had into that place.

And it just became like the laughing stock of the entire internet. And everyone went online and said they found worms with moustaches and their salads. Anyways, we don't have to rehash that. I actually had a really good conversation with Sandoval yesterday. Did you? I talked to him for like an hour, FaceTime him, and he's just doing so well right now. It just popped in my head. It was nice.

He sounded just so good and optimistic. and... Pet, would you say your guys's friendship? I mean, obviously, it sounds like you're still friends, but do you feel like there's been a little distance

created? Yes. Between you two? We took a long break from each other. I mean, S&S, not to like, I know we've already talked

about this. I don't want to do stale topics, but that almost destroyed our friendship. It really did. We took a long break from each other, but listen,

it's water under the bridge now. We've worked through it. I have no lingering resentment. Can you see it on me? You look? No, you look great. I told you. Really?

He looks like he's got some, I don't know if it's the Florida tan, but like you've got some color to you. Natalie, it's love. It's love. You're in love. I'm in love again. I can head over heels, Gaga. Really?

Yeah. Was the last time you hear? No, no, no. No, I don't know. Have you guys met Keanu? No. Oh, you haven't. Why did I think you guys had met her?

Yeah, our name's Keanu. Not Michelle. No. You guys, can we be? I was so awkward in the beginning of the show. I'd like to make a public apology. To the audience, the Bravo fan. I was so, I've never seen myself.

Like, I was a happy shell of myself. I kind of feel like I was maybe living a bit of a double life because I was going through the motions of, like, being a single guy and exploring dating, but, like, quietly behind the scenes, I was, like, starting to fall in love with Kiana. And I was like, it's scary. That's a pretty name.

It's a gorgeous name. I call her Kiki. Hi, Kiki. I don't know if she'll listen to this, but I love her madly. She's just, like, she's devastatingly gorgeous, like way out of my league. I'm just as confused as you guys.

We're all confused. Can I see a picture? Yeah. Yeah. In a sea of green flags, I'm the only red flag. Why would you date me? Wait, how did y'all meet? We had been friends for a long time.

She came into one of the last night, Schwartz and Sandy's was open. And we were friends, like, casual, but we never, like, hung out or nothing romantic, really. And then over the past, like, six or seven months, it's really blossomed into this beautiful thing. Let's see. What pictures should I show you? Anyone? I mean, let's see. An appropriate one.

Oh, yeah. Make sure you're both closed. Yeah. I mean, not to brag, but she is a model. Yes, of course. But that's like the least interesting thing about her. She's like ferociously funny. She's traveled the world.

Beautiful. Did she keep you on your toes? Oh, my God. She's my karma. For all of my failures and past relationships that we don't have to dissect, I think she's my karma. How long have you been together? Like, I think we're coming up on eight months. Okay.

Yeah, we're going to Cabo this weekend. to like are you going to propose whoa I mean you just spoiled it now will you will you if you're listening do you this should actually be kind of cool

I don't know she might be We've never got to propose on the show Wait what would be her reaction if you were to hypothetically Like throw a drink in her face Oh my God Listen if anything she's going to throw a drink in my face And I probably deserve it But I'm so sweet and soft enough

now, but I think I'm a little obnoxious. And I think I've sort of finally grown out of my puppy dog stick. Oh, my little sheepish, dopey kind of. Can I, how old is she? She's 27. Okay. She's about to turn 28. Yeah.

But, like, she's so effing. She's so cool. 43? 43, yeah. 27? She's, yeah. You need the math. 16.

We should have been on your show. You should have. You didn't need the show. You found it organically. Dude, congrats, by the way. It was a big hit. Yeah. Yeah, where they worked out.

Now he was a star. Is that, did you guys conceptualize this? No, we wish. No, we didn't. We were just asked. Jen and Rebecca at the Velvet Hammer where the brainchild's behind the show. See, it makes so much sense.

You know, I have found, you know, as someone who, everyone's working on, you know, their reality TV idea. Yeah. We all got one. We all got one. I have learned that it's sometimes the most simplest premises

are the ones that really pop. Can't be too confusing. Well, yours is certainly polarizing. It was like, yeah, you know, it was received just how I imagine everyone thought it would be received, but it was good. Would I do anything that wasn't, you know? Is she going to, like, potentially be on the next?

That's the thing. When you're, like, when you're dating someone, you care about them on a deep level. I love this person. I'm madly in love. It's like, you're protective over them. Because it's like, if you're not all the way on the show, it can be kind of scary. Yeah. And it's like, I'm trying to be protective of her privacy.

But she's such a good sport about it and she's got such a good head on her shoulders. She's so well-rounded. How has this relationship fulfilled you in ways that maybe you just haven't been fulfilled before? Both maybe as a result, you know, just for the growth that you've done and not to just put it in any, you know. We're not assigning blame or comparison, but you're in this new stage of life. And obviously there's a brightness to you and energy that you feel. Thank you. You look happy and excited and optimistic.

Shipper. Bubbly. I'm bubbly. It's bubbly. And at 43 years old, despite your girlfriend being as beautiful as you feel that she is, as not as she is. Thank you. But I, you know, I'm guessing that this excitement and love and enthusiasm is coming from a place of

more than just looking at her. Of course. And how she makes you feel in this relationship. Exactly. Precisely. And listen, not to, I hate the line. You'll see how that plays out this season because she was a good sport and she did me a solid and she filmed a good amount.

Okay. But she's nervous. It's scary. It's like kind of getting thrown to the wolves and all of a sudden. Remember the first time you had the public

scrutinizing you? It feels like a loss of control. It's kind of scary. Yeah. But she's like... I learned a lot of things about myself. Yeah, me too. Oh, my God.

I was like, oh, well, yeah, I guess my face does look like that. Yeah, it's hard. How do you feel at this point watching yourself? Are you guys cool? Watching myself? Yeah.

I don't know. I'm trying not to. I mean, we watched Age of Attraction, and I don't, I mean, we definitely were like critical of our, you know, why are we standing like that? Why are we, you know, you're critical, hypercritical of yourself. Your posture. Exactly. The sound of your voice. Yes. Yes. Well, I just, I feel, I don't know. It just feels right. That's an oversimplification,

but it just feels right. And we're aligned in our values and like we have such a good, healthy line of communication. And I just, I don't know. I was a bit of a, I was a bit of a potts back in the day. And what? What? Just, I think I was, maybe some of the stereotypes about me were true, you know? I always resented people saying I'm spineless because I'm like deeply compassionate. And I love to, maybe to a fault I love putting myself in other people's shoes. I like to try to lift people up when they're down, even when they did it to themselves and they're dealing with the consequences of their own actions.

Not an apologist. Not an apologist. Right? So you're looking for. Do you feel like you should? Yes, right. Right, yes. Do you feel like you've learned how to stand up not only to yourself, but maybe even to a friend?

Yes. At the risk of disappointed. Yes. Disappointment. Definitely. And your girlfriend, you want kids. I mean, when, and I met, you know, a lot of people will say, what do you could you possibly have in common?

I'm like, well, actually quite a lot. And the thing we had most in common we met is that when I met, when I met, met now, I started dating. She was like, I just, I've lived a lot of life in my life. young years and I really want to be a young mom and I want to have children in my 20s. It wasn't like I need to have kids next week. But it was like, oh, great. I'm also for the right person at the right time, excited and anxious to have children. And so that was a conversation. We had fairly early in our career, very early in our relationship because, you know, I wanted to

be honest with myself, could this relationship work? And that was a big part of my non-negotiables, I didn't want to start a relationship only to have to wait, you know, about something so important to me. I could. I'm totally aligned with you because we've had those hard conversations and we do have such a great line of communication. And yes, we talk about that on the season. So I don't know how much I want to get into it. Just because I don't want to ruffle feathers. I'm on a new. Guys, what I feel so effing lucky. It was the most like organic transition ever to go from Vanderpom Prules onto the valley. I'm already friends with everyone. And what are you guys thinking of this season so far? It's good.

Well, I said that like a... It's good. It's good. It's good. It's a slower burn. I think I was talking to one of your peers who felt a little self-conscious about the lack of attention we were given the valleys so far this season. I saw that. A result of our summer house discount course.

I was just with Carl and Kyle last week. Oh, two weeks ago. I have questions for you. Carl's not a mess. Carl is thriving. Carl is thriving. He has recovered. Can I ask him

summer house questions? Of course. Really? Okay, great. Wonderful. This is cool. I missed you guys. I really missed you.

This is so beautiful. To answer you, Christopher at the Valley, I'm enjoying it. I really like the conversations between Kristen and Luke. And obviously, it's very relatable to us. I think, you know, we didn't have the same experience that Kristen and Luke are going through. But I think every young parent knows what it's like to transition from not having kids to that's nine months of pregnancy and that adjustment to postpartum and and you know it's just it's it's a different line of communicate yeah a lot of pathways you got to navigate a lot of

conversations you have to have and it also is a lot lighter without jacks we like that but i imagine though it's a channel i think as audience members we we talk about this law on the show and as it relates to the summer house i think it's and i've been no fan of jacks and certainly no supporter but like We do like we love drama and and there's a toxicity that we we yeah we want to critique it. We'll call it out But it is what it is what brings us in and I think do you feel like the cast has had to learn how to live without jacks In terms of making TV and relying on him for what seemed to be just always bringing the toxicity someone who comes from a bachelor franchise is always like oh everyone wanted the villain to leave and everyone would be like oh that person's gone and then And I was like, well, be careful because someone else has to replace them. And they don't even realize that.

You know, do you guys feel that loss with Jacks? It's funny. On the way over here, my car's been in the shop for like a month. And I was scrolling. I was looking at chicks in the office weekly reviews of shows. And I forgot what they graded the Valley. But they said the apex predator is gone and no one knows what to do. And I'm like, well, first of all, I'll give Jack's a shout out because he's been sober for one year in three months now.

And I know he's been Mr. Work in Progress for us. but like he's actually been putting in like noticeable changes and really I don't know from Brittany's standpoint I don't know if she's going to be rolling her eyes but from a friend standpoint I got to give jacks a shout out he's really been put in work into himself but yes it's weird it was weird in the beginning to be on a show with someone that was the second person third person I met in Los Angeles we live together you know for better or for worse we're family and yeah it was a weird in the beginning but just watching it back I don't know I'm I'm very thoroughly entertained aside from when I'm on the screen. I'm loving the show. I'm fascinated with like

Jesse and Michelle's dynamic with the divorce and being young parents. I don't, I, I couldn't imagine going through divorce with a young child and having to watch my former partner, even if I hated them, you know, like bond with someone else and then have to watch their new partner parent your child. And it would just be very difficult not to see red. And so I truly empathize with both of them, regardless of what you think of the characters. It's, I'm very connected to that story. I've always fascinated by that. Me too. I'm so invested and I'm, I'm, friends with all of them, but I'm watching it back. It's just, yeah, like, I love, I love Lacey. Me and Michelle became really good friends this past year, but like, I love Lacey and Jesse's

dynamic. She's also his karma. Yeah, it seems like it. If you were to have actually dated, Michelle, do you think Jesse would have cared? But then she would have never dated Dr. Dre. That's so true. Can you imagine there's a reality in which she chose me over Dr. Dre? I'm just kidding. Could you imagine? Just kidding. Like, is that a thing?

Michelle and Dr. Dre? Me and Michelle never had anything aside from just a platonic fun. No, I know. The doctor. The Dr. Dre. Is it? I haven't talked to Michelle. I've reached out to her because I thought it was an AI generator article,

which go viral, like crazy on Facebook. Yeah. But I don't know. Did you guys get verification? No. I mean, it looked pretty verifiable. to me, they were holding hands. So it didn't look like a business meeting.

And there was those Quentin Tarantino, you know, rumors in the past. I was like, maybe she just roams in elite circles. We were joking about this. I was in Ohio this past weekend. And someone sent me a meme and it said, Michelle has the craziest pipeline ever. Jesse took Quentin Tarantino to the honey guy to almost Tom Schwartz to Dr. Dre. And I was saying.

Just kidding if she sees it. To almost Tom Schwartz. To Dr. We're obviously very fascinated with the summer house drama of it all. And obviously, you know, everyone's comparing it to Scandival. And so, like, you're almost weirdly adjacently connected. I think even some of the fans have tried to blame you. Because last season, if people don't remember, you were like, this is going to last, guys, you know?

And I think it's not your fault. I want you to know, despite what the internet says. That felt like a nice goodwill hunting moment. Yeah, right? It's not your fault. Thank you. It's not your fault. Did I jigs the cat?

It's not your fault. No. I think if it happens to the Southern hospitality kids, too. Andrew there, then that's an issue. Since you're feeling vulnerable right now in open and honest, do you feel like West Wilson has a little bit of Thomas Swartz and him of, I'll say, 10 years ago? And I have described West, who I've gotten to know.

I don't know what he thinks of these days. We've been a little critical of his behavior. I hope he's okay with it. I've described him as kind of a weak man. Really? And I've described it in a sense because, like, you know, he does this whole like, aw, shucks kind of bit. I would never.

And, you know, again, he seems like very in tune with his feelings. Probably he's done some therapy. You can see it. You can tell Wes. He's done the work. And I feel like there's this kind of new kind of guy in the zeitgeist of modern dating in pop culture where they can center their feelings and use that therapy talk. and at the end of day, there's a level of weakness because instead of just being direct and

respecting people, they center their feelings. And you have this guy in West who kind of just kind of wanted to pretend that Sierra wasn't trying to communicate something like this, how important this friendship means to him and what this friendship was about for her, which was like a stepping stone into a relationship. And then he just kind of always focused on him. And I don't think he's a bad guy. I don't think he meant to hurt anyone, but I think that is a bit of a cop-out for, like, just not honestly taking kind of responsibility of her's actions. And like, you kind of talked about how maybe some of your, those criticisms were true. Do you feel like there's a little bit of that? Or do you, or do you have, like, do you have empathy for West? Are you critical of West? How do you,

how do you see it? Well, I hate piling on people when they're down. He knows. We don't want to pile on. But we're just, we're breaking it down. I think, there's a clue. There's a clear code violation, right? Ethical bro-girl code violation. Like, it's messed up and you're just like, when you're in it and you're feeling the feelings, you can't control how you feel, but you can control how you respond to those feelings.

I wonder what those conversations, because I'm friends with Amanda and West, I still love them. I hate piling on them, but like they know they, I just... Do you think they know they fucked up, so to speak? They seemed a little defensive. Like, I remember when they released, the joint statements, which I didn't like.

Man, they were just kind of poor taste, not to pile on. I hated those joint statements, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't see it going to distance. It's like, it's just, it's almost never worth it when you know you're going to alienate or violate a friend. It just seems, it doesn't it just feel jinxed or doomed?

Yeah. I don't know. We were talking. I mean, what we're hearing about how Amanda and West might feel and how they may go about defending themselves. Amanda almost sounds how Sandoval sounded, which was like almost kind of very defiant as opposed to like, remember back in the day

and everyone's like, just say you're sorry and move the fuck on and just be like, you know, and Tom was always like, yeah, but, he always had the butt. And I, you know, I, you know, it's just like, I have empathy for all you guys because I think, you know, fans sometimes, we're very fascinated with the TV show,

and I think sometimes, you know, I honestly, you know, you don't have to answer the question. I sometimes wonder, does even younger Tom Swartz, is he really the type of guy who would throw a drink in his face? Or is he just like, you know,

you make a TV? And I just kind of wonder if sometimes do you guys who have made careers showing up season after season lose yourself a little bit? Do you guys, do you feel like sometimes you've lost yourself and not knowing when like the TV character stops

and the human begins and like where they almost overconnected in a way? where and then you can't speak on things because you're not sure if you're like speaking about production away, you're not supposed to speak on it, but you have fans coming and making assumptions and it kind of gets clouded

because that's how it felt like Tom was, where it was like, but there's this thing I need you to know and as opposed to being like, yeah, it doesn't really matter to say you're sorry. Yeah, I mean, so essentially you're saying, does sometimes like the subconscious pressure of knowing that you have to bring it sort of compromise your integrity almost?

Sure, whatever. I don't think so. At least certainly not. I know better than never self-produced because when you do it comes off horribly and they can see it a mile away. But I'm sure at some points, you're like, yeah, you're like, oh my God,

because you know what works and doesn't work after being on TV for 10 years, but you don't want to be too self-aware about it. No one wants to watch someone who's overly self-aware, right? That's no fun. Right. Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, I don't know. There's times or maybe, yeah, maybe I did have some identity crises in the past. I'm like, is really, is that me? Is that who I am? I remember I used to get so insulted when I would do events and people were like, you're just like you are on TV. And I'm like, don't you say that.

Take it back right now. Because it's like I thought I was kind of likable, but I'm still always shocked that people still show me so much love. Truly, like when I host events and I'm traveling, I get a lot of love. And I'm like, you guys, did you not watch the show? I was kind of pathetic. I think what you have is like this, there's like this earnestness, at least on TV, where it's like you're making decisions that.

so many times of Vanderpump rules. I was like, why the fuck are you doing that? But there's a thing where you're like, you have this, like, charmingness of just like, kind of what you're saying of not, like, self-producing. It seems like genuine that you're kind of just like, whoops versus like sometimes with Sandoval. I think he, like, his energy comes off as more of like,

he's intentionally doing this. And I wonder if that's it. I don't know. I don't know if Sandoval's that too. Like it might come across that way. I don't know. I love watching Tom on TV. I know I'm partial

because I've known him for so long. But he's a TV, sir. He like gives 1,000% I know he's working on a cool project now. I don't even know what it's about, but like I just know he's out there giving 1,000% every day. Like everything else in his life

has disappeared. And he's so immersed in that moment. I love that about him when he does a show like on traders and stuff. He's great on traders. Wait, what's your guy's favorite Bravo show right now? Somewhere else. Yeah.

It's just like the relationship dynamic. and it's, I think that, again, it's why we, I hate to say we love this scandal, but like, it's easier to watch this group of friends and judge them and critique them than look at our own lives. And I think we have all, other people want to admit it, we know it's like to be abandoned by friends or let out by friends. We've even been the bad friend. You know, we have been the bad partner. We have been, you know, all these things that all these people represent in these dynamics. And that's why, you know, whether it's the Valley or Summer House, I mean, I think Summerhouse is the the best show on TV that I think represents kind of modern dating culture, which I think is

fascinating for me and somebody who's like interested in that stuff. How's Kyle doing? He's doing great. He's crushing it. It's like I know everyone was so, he got a good, healthy roast when he decided to start DJing in his 40s, but I'm so happy he did. I'm so happy he didn't listen to the audience because now he's crushing it. He's selling out shows in Chicago at Tao and stuff. And it's like, it's another great way to promote lover. boy. I think lover boy is like kind of crushing right now. Well, thank you Amanda. You know, like the graphic designer part didn't really help, but yeah, I just,

was Kyle in West ever that closer friends? Like if you're, if you had to guess, because I'm guessing you don't know, how do you think West justified the way he moved? Is it related to his friendship with Kyle? Well, the love must have been undeniable, right? Because it's not just a sexual thing. He's like, I don't think he's trying to get his rocks off. I don't know. I can say that. But I don't think Right. I mean, it's not like he was already getting the rocks off.

Yeah. Yeah. He was, he's, he's, West is, it's weird because I'm friends with West, but I don't really know exactly how he moves. Is he a bit of a playboy? A little bit.

Or no. According to, he's got a bit of a roster. He's a romantic. It seems like he was enjoying being a single guy, making some money in a big city. Which is like why it was like, even with Amanda not in the equation,

it was more like, just, just let's see her know. It's like not happening. And stop trying to be friends with someone who's been very clear that like she wants to be friends first with the person that she wants to marry. So like stop pretending she didn't say that. I think in trying to like be sweet he unintentionally. See that's the thing part. That's the thing part that try to be sweet but unintentional part.

That's the part I don't buy. And I don't think he is. I just there's, he's not stupid. And you can't be that stupid and emotionally. He is emotionally intelligent, right? We all agree that. Yeah, yeah. Wes is pretty sharp.

But he pretends to be emotionally confused. You know, and it's just not enough. It doesn't take a lot of strength to say, I'm not ready for a relationship. It takes a lot more to show you're not ready for a relationship, but the person who says, I want to be in a relationship, you know, and I think he does the thing where it's just like, well, I'm not ready.

And they need to just counts to flirting and the, you know, those moments where, you know, it's just like for someone who's in Sierra shoes is looking for hope and she's looking for a sign and she's, you know, she's juggling, I've set a boundary with this guy and I'm trying to communicate. There's no way he would listen to what I'm saying and then act that way if he didn't also mean it and if he wasn't also confused about his feelings. And he pretended to be confused and in that confusion, she found hope. And I just don't think he didn't, he wasn't that confused. Well, I don't think he's a malicious guy.

Just maybe, we don't have to get into semantics. Selfish? Careless. Selfish. Maybe a little selfish. He's got a blooming career and he's out hustling and he's having fun and I don't know. But you've been friends with Kyle since. Long time, probably 10 years.

10 years. Yeah, we don't see each other a ton but I still consider him a very close friend. I love Kyle. Do you feel whether, I can't imagine he's asked you to, but do you feel like you have to pick sides or does he just, do you just, do you Are you just... No, he's sweet. Kyle is very emotionally intelligent.

I don't know if he always comes off on TV because he's drunk a lot of the time and he's having fun and stuff. But like, he's sharp. Like, he's a CEO of his business. And he's a very sharp guy. And he's just... I love what he said.

Like, remember they did that interview when he was on the streetwalk and his dogs? And he's just like, the first thing he said was even in spite of this whole thing and how twisted it is. He's like, I'm just worried about Amanda. Yeah. I know she struggles with depression.

and like to people are ruthless online. It's scary. I remember what it was like. There's no. It's not like, oh, hey, Amanda's making a bad decision she might regret. And we should, you know, she deserves some criticism to like she's a horrible bitch who deserves the burn in hell is like, it's like, whoa, can't we just, Jesus. She can't like, damn.

She can't make a mistake? Well, that's also the thing with like West, though. And we've talked about this is that Kyle is the one who got, I mean, maybe kind of fucked over. and then he's still defending Amanda publicly. And then West, like, isn't actually really sane anything. And he's the one that's like... I have a question for you. Kyle, you know, he's gotten his fair share criticism over the years.

There's a lot of people who have said, well, we don't really feel bad for Kyle. We feel bad for Sierra. There's no excuse for calling your wife a bitch or any woman, for that matter, if you're a guy. So to make that clear. But I can't help but wonder, do you think there's any truth

if someone were to say as a fan? I'm just a fan. Hey, as a fan, this command of it all made me wonder if maybe, again, not to excuse what he said, but has Kyle in any way been covering for Amanda over the years where he was willing to take some relationship heat that maybe he felt even that she deserved? But he was protecting her and now you're maybe seeing. I've had this exact hunch. Well, I feel bad saying that because I love them both. Wait, now I feel bad.

But I've had this hunch before. I don't know. I feel bad gossiping about them. We're doing a podcast. It's a safe place right. Yeah, yeah. I've got to hear it. And we're not, listen, we don't think either of them are horrible people.

Not at all. And I hope there's a path forward for all of them. And I hope this is something that she will look back and be like, yeah, maybe I would have moved differently. I have empathy for the position Amanda's end, not to excuse her. But I can just see based off everything that's played out how she got to this decision, whether it's a good decision or not. like people don't make these decisions in a vacuum.

Man, the proximity effect is a powerful thing in psychology, right? Just spending that much time around each other. Like, you're already pre-vetted. You feel safe. Drinks are flowing. Not normalizing what happened at the situation, but like every show. It happens on every show.

Every group, but not just show, every group of friends I've ever had. Inevitably, someone ends up hooking up with someone in the friend group. And, yeah, it's a powerful thing. Anyways, answer that question. Wait, so sorry, I got distracted.

Kyle, has Kyle been defending Amanda over the years in ways that we as fans didn't see? I think out of respect and love for his wife, yeah, at times he didn't vocalize some things he was frustrated about, but not to excuse his behavior. And do you feel like if the audience heard that, it wouldn't just be like Kyle's bullshit sad story, it would be like, you know what, he's got a point? Yeah, I do. I do. Switching years a little bit, did you watch VPR reboot? I did. You did?

I thought it was great. You did. And I've got to hang out with a lot of the cast. Like Natalie, I interviewed her when she dropped her new song. I think they, I get it. Where were you guys at with it? I really enjoyed it. I couldn't.

Natalie struggled with it. I was, you know. I watched it a little bit. Honestly, like, I feel like because I watched VPR, like, I started it a while ago. And now it's also like weirdly linked into my job and stuff. And I just have like such a connection with like that show. And so watching the reboot and also watching people like my age too being the reboot is like a brain break for me. So I'm hard time with it.

But that's really specific to me. It's growing on me because I see that they have there's roots there. They have real authentic friendships. They hang outside of work. They're always in Sir. And they're all chasing dreams. Starting Only fans. But yeah, I dig it.

I still think Sandoval could make a killing on OnlyFans. I do too. You. Tom. I don't know. Victoria's going to be Tom. I think he would go a thousand percent. He is in a relationship.

So. Yeah. Well, he would do it. It's 2026. Yeah. But, yeah, I dig it. I like the new. I'm here to vouch for the new Vanderpumpurals.

Even though they were like, who is Katie Maloney. We don't even know who that is. That was a little spicy. Okay. That was a stray, as they call them. That was a stray. I think. So not all of them know.

It was an honest mistake. Was it snarky when he said that? I don't think it was. Was Katie? Katie retaliated, I think. She did. Yeah, she showed up. She did.

Yeah. I do think maybe it was a little snark. But, you know. I know you have to get going. We're getting the light, as they say. But before we send you off on your way, can you set up the rest of the season of the Valley? What can we look forward to?

Yeah. Why should people watch? Yeah. Well, this is the first. I've always been in a relationship when I've been on TV. And I don't know how much of it the camera's caught. Of course, I remember everything we filmed. But, like, this is the first time in real time.

I'm falling in love. You get to catch me falling in love in real time. Thanks. And I'm starting my whole life anew, which is kind of terrifying. Because, listen, as you get into your 40s, like, unrealized potential gets more and more risky, right? It's just, and it's scary, but, like, I also just feel absolutely dialed in and more motivated than I've ever been in my life.

So I'm excited about life. I think it's a really good season. It's a healing season. But I'm scared people will hear that, Nick, and think it's boring. Because it's not. It's just a healing season. A lot of people went through a lot of traumatic things. Yeah.

And some dark things. Listen, I just think that's maybe just reality TV. We have a bit of a problem, I think, also just as the internet. I think we are too, like, it's just a toxic world out there and we're expecting toxicity. Even when we say that we don't, but I think we have to push through and we have to watch, you know, We can't complain for an entire season how dark the valley is, and then have it become lighter,

only to complain that it's boring. It's like we have to, we, and I speak for myself. Sometimes we have to pick a lane. I personally could watch you guys go to all seasons, any death. That's really sweet. You guys are being so sweet.

Thank you for the love, and thanks for being diplomatic about it. Yeah, it's a healing season. But there's lots of great nuances and I love just exploring other people's relationships, seeing them be first time mothers and father, and yeah man it's good there's a few there's a few good really good cast trips that I'm excited about do you have a difficult time understanding Janet's point of view at times I do okay it's weird because

I've been friends with Janet a long time long before like long time okay we're friends I love Janet and Jason I know I just it's I'm catching up on all the lore and I'm oh she was like a fan of the show but we were friends we hung out like we yeah she'll never live that down by the way Janet's never The fan. No, I'd be it. Because she kind of gives this man on the show. Do you guys, wait, wait, has Janet been on the show? Yeah, she's been on the show.

Jason too? No. No. Oh, but yeah, man. She didn't bring them. Listen, it's a good season. It's a healing season. Not boring.

Healing, nuanced. Layer. It's in no way boring. Okay, cool. Thank you. I agree. I really am enjoying it, aside from when I'm on the, and I come out of my shell, too. I apologize for being very, very awkward in the beginning.

just watching myself. I'm like, dude, what do you? Yeah, it's so hard. It's like one of the hardest beginnings of any season ever for me. It's like an old season vet

coming out of retirement. You know, you gotta like, takes you a little bit to warm back up, you know? I am a rescue dog for sure. Like me, McQueen and cars three. Yeah, it's okay.

Thomas Schwartz, thanks for coming by, man. Love you guys. Love you back. Kim, anything else you want to promote? You got a podcast. Yeah, I got a podcast, detox, retox.

Every Wednesday now, not Tuesdays anymore. and yeah we got some cool stuff coming up and I got big dreams for the podcast it's only been a year but it's hard people think you just pick up a mic and start talking which fucking ground bro dude it's a grind

we appreciate you we love you and thank you guys for listening thank you to our guest Tom Sforge and Emily D. Baker and we appreciate you we will see you back tomorrow we got Liz from Real Housewives of Rhode Island super excited to talk with her we loving the entire cast in the show and we got a lot more in store for you tomorrow

so be sure to join us thanks for listening bye